Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7278

1 Wednesday, 22nd September, 1999

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case IT-95-14/2-T, the

7 Prosecutor versus Dario Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Stein?

9 MR. STEIN: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 WITNESS: WITNESS P [Resumed]

11 [Witness answers through interpreter]

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Stein:

13 Q. Witness P, my name is Bob Stein, and I

14 represent Dario Kordic. If there is any question that

15 I ask you that you don't understand, will you let me

16 know?

17 A. Yes, fine.

18 Q. Let's start out by talking about the context

19 in which the events you described in your direct

20 examination took place. In November of 1990, the

21 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina was in place; isn't

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. But by April 1992, the centre of that

25 government, Sarajevo, was under siege; isn't that

Page 7279

1 correct?

2 A. Until when?

3 Q. During -- it started in April of 1992, the

4 siege of Sarajevo; April 6, 1992.

5 A. One could say so, but I know that I went to

6 Sarajevo on the 26th of April, 1992; I entered it.

7 Q. Nonetheless, sir, would you agree that the

8 Serbian army had surrounded Sarajevo in April of 1992?

9 A. We could agree on that.

10 Q. And can we further agree that the government

11 which was centred in Sarajevo had basically ground to a

12 halt?

13 A. No, we cannot agree on that point, because

14 the government did not stop functioning.

15 Q. Perhaps my question was not clear. The

16 ministers and officers of the government were trapped

17 inside of Sarajevo; isn't that correct?

18 A. Yes, one could put it that way, that they

19 were in a kind of trap.

20 Q. And certainly the government was not

21 operating in the same manner in April of '92 as it was

22 in March of '92?

23 A. Probably. It was operating under more

24 difficult conditions than those that prevailed in March

25 1992.

Page 7280

1 Q. All right. And furthermore, because of what

2 was happening in Bosnia-Herzegovina, refugees started

3 to flood various areas of the country; correct?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. Now, as a result of all of these things that

6 were happening, you, on the local level, were

7 struggling with how to manage under these adverse

8 conditions?

9 A. Yes, yes, one could put it that way.

10 Q. And part of that struggle was a political

11 struggle as to what was to happen on the local level in

12 terms of local affairs and local government?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Another way of saying the same thing,

15 perhaps, is to say there was almost a power vacuum; do

16 you understand that term?

17 A. Whether one could say there was a power

18 vacuum, or was it rather an attempt to suspend the

19 government, which had been functioning until then, on

20 the part of one party. In this case these were efforts

21 made by the HDZ.

22 Q. Sir, if I understand your question -- let me

23 rephrase my question. Your party, the HDZ, were all

24 struggling to figure out how to function in the summer

25 of 1992 in the absence of an active central government?

Page 7281

1 A. Our party was endeavouring to preserve

2 government such as it was until then. Of course,

3 connections with the central government were poor at

4 that time.

5 Q. And one of the issues during the summer of

6 1992 is whether there would be a BiH at all, and what

7 it would look like after the war; right?

8 A. That was present at that time.

9 Q. And if I understand your positions correctly,

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted) during that particular time frame, the summer

12 of 1992?

13 A. One could put it that way.

14 Q. And do I also take it, sir, that regardless

15 of your position, you had no military power?

16 A. No, I did not have any military power.

17 Q. At one point in time, Mr. Refik Lendo became

18 appointed as head of the military in your area; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, Refik Lendo was appointed on the 25th of

21 May, 1992, as commander of the Territorial Defence

22 staff in Novi Travnik.

23 Q. And he had been a former JNA major; isn't

24 that right?

25 A. As far as I know, yes, he was a major.

Page 7282

1 Q. He had also been in the Yugoslav intelligence

2 service, the KOS?

3 A. I'm not aware of those things. I don't

4 know.

5 Q. But we can agree, can we not, that the times

6 called out for a strong Muslim military leader?

7 A. Those times required strong men in general.

8 Q. Fair enough. One other issue that I want to

9 resolve: By April 1992, we can agree, can we not, that

10 one-third of your country, one-third of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina -- the Serb one-third, and their

12 party -- boycotted the referendum on independence;

13 isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes, that is correct. A very small number of

15 Serbs took part in the referendum on the independence

16 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

17 Q. The Serb attitude during the summer of 1992

18 -- that is, the Bosnian Serb attitude -- is that they

19 wanted to remain part of Serbia; isn't that right?

20 A. As far as I know, yes.

21 Q. Now, we've heard a great deal of testimony

22 relative to Bratstvo from you and other witnesses. I

23 want to turn your attention to some of those issues.

24 The Croat complaint relative to the arms from

25 Bratstvo was that those arms were being given to the

Page 7283

1 JNA, who were then fighting in Croatia against the

2 Republic of Croatia; isn't that correct?

3 A. Yes, that is how it was, to the best of my

4 knowledge.

5 Q. By the summer of 1992, the JNA were using

6 arms from Bratstvo not only against the Croats in

7 Croatia but against the Croats and Muslims in Bosnia?

8 A. We can agree on that.

9 Q. As a result of this kind of use or misuse,

10 depending on your perspective, of arms from Bratstvo,

11 can we agree that in April of 1992 there were

12 24 truckloads of arms that were sent from Bratstvo to

13 the TO?

14 A. I'm not aware of that, of the 24 truckloads

15 that were sent to the Territorial Defence or where.

16 Q. Well, perhaps I have the number wrong, but in

17 April of 1992, there were arms escorted through the

18 Lasva Valley by the chief of police of Novi Travnik,

19 and he was escorted, or the head of the convoy, by a

20 Muslim. Do you recall that?

21 A. I do remember that something like that

22 happened, but I know that the weapons were taken both

23 for the needs of the Croats and for the needs of the

24 Muslims, the Bosniaks.

25 Q. Who were both fighting the Serbs.

Page 7284

1 A. Until then, yes.

2 Q. And just to clarify, the arms went to Visoko;

3 isn't that right?

4 A. I don't know where the arms went. I saw

5 documents which said that some went to Kiseljak, to

6 Croats and Bosniaks; to Vitez; Busovaca; Travnik. I

7 was a witness of this. I saw this. I'm not aware that

8 the weapons went to Visoko.

9 Q. You saw the video or you saw the shipment,

10 the convoy itself? Which?

11 A. I saw the papers, the documents, and I saw

12 the people doing the driving. I saw a document, for

13 instance, signed by Minister Jerko Doko, and the

14 weapons were to have been taken over by Mr. Ivica

15 Santic for the needs of the Territorial Defence of

16 Vitez, Busovaca, Kiseljak, Kresevo. Therefore, all

17 those weapons went for the Croats because he took them

18 over.

19 Q. And the head of the convoy was a Muslim, was

20 he not, named Cengic?

21 A. Regarding this convoy led by Cengic, I don't

22 know, but if Cengic did come, I know that Zlatan

23 Civcija, as chief of police, would escort the convoy.

24 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Now, it's fair enough,

25 certainly by the summer or by March 1992, the former

Page 7285

1 Yugoslavia no longer existed; correct?

2 A. One could agree on that.

3 Q. And that the federal laws were no longer

4 binding on you and the people in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

5 A. I think so.

6 Q. Now, there's been testimony in the Tribunal

7 about these rocket launchers. Those ultimately ended

8 up in Croat hands after some negotiations; isn't that

9 right?

10 A. I did not witness those negotiations, and I

11 don't know where those rocket launchers ended up. I am

12 not familiar with the negotiations over that.

13 Q. Well, I'm confused. You testified yesterday

14 about those rocket launchers. Was your testimony based

15 on what you saw or what someone else told you?

16 A. No. I do know that those rocket launchers

17 were taken away, but I don't know where they went. I

18 know they went towards Herzegovina, towards Croatia.

19 Those are the VBRs.

20 Q. Perhaps my question was less than clear.

21 Were you aware of the negotiations that led up to those

22 rocket launchers being taken from the Bratstvo

23 factory?

24 A. I was not aware of those negotiations. I

25 know that Kordic came to my office in the evening with

Page 7286

1 certain people and with his escort, and he finished the

2 job in Bratstvo. He drove away the weapons. Where he

3 took them, I don't know.

4 Q. Sir --

5 A. As far as I know, they were taken towards

6 Herzegovina and Croatia.

7 Q. Not my question. I'm not concerned where

8 they were taken. Short and simple is: You don't know

9 how it was that Dario Kordic came into possession of

10 those rocket launchers, whether it was by negotiation,

11 liberation, or any other way; right?

12 A. He came to my office. From my office he went

13 to Bratstvo and took off those weapons.

14 MR. STEIN: The Court's attention is drawn to

15 the testimony of Witness C, and there's another witness

16 right after him that amplified this issue. I'm not

17 going to go into it.

18 Q. Were you perhaps aware, sir, that at the end

19 of 1992 there was negotiations, at a very high level,

20 between the Muslims and the Croats, regarding not only

21 the payment for the rocket launchers but the payment

22 for the arms that were in the convoy we talked about

23 earlier? Were you aware of those negotiations, sir?

24 A. I did not know about those negotiations, nor

25 do I know where they were conducted.

Page 7287

1 Q. So as to whether or not there was an

2 accounting balancing the rocket launchers and the

3 convoy's arms, you're unaware; is that right, sir?

4 A. There may have been such negotiations, but I

5 was not a part of them.

6 Q. Have you heard about those, sir, from any

7 other source?

8 A. I heard later on that there were some

9 negotiations. Where and when and in what period, I

10 don't know, but I heard about this sometime in 1994,

11 that in the Defence Ministry there were discussions as

12 to how payment should be made to the factory for

13 everything that had been taken away.

14 Q. So I take your answer correctly, in 1994 you

15 learned that at the Defence Ministry there had been

16 some negotiations and some reconciliations relative to

17 the payment for the rocket launchers; is that right?

18 A. I don't know what the final outcome was, but

19 I was told that there were some talks. How they ended,

20 I don't know.

21 Q. Very good. You mentioned when Mr. Kordic

22 came to Bratstvo, he was dressed in a uniform. What

23 you meant was some sort of camouflage?

24 A. Yes, in a camouflage uniform he came to see

25 me.

Page 7288

1 Q. Later on you saw him at his headquarters. He

2 was also wearing camouflage; is that right?

3 A. Yes, in Tisovac, exactly.

4 Q. You never saw Mr. Kordic in a military

5 uniform -- and by "military uniform," I mean something

6 blue or red -- a formal military uniform; you only saw

7 him in camouflage. Is that right?

8 A. In a camouflage uniform. I saw him very

9 frequently wearing a camouflage uniform.

10 Q. So when you use the term "camouflage," you

11 use the term "uniform" interchangeably; correct?

12 A. Yes. That is a military uniform. It was a

13 camouflage uniform with HVO insignia.

14 Q. Lots of people, by the way, wore camouflage

15 during 1992 and 1993, who were not associated with the

16 military; right?

17 A. Mostly this indicated military membership.

18 Q. That's not my question. My question was:

19 Even though people were not in the military, many chose

20 to wear camouflage: Correct, or incorrect?

21 A. I couldn't agree with you. Camouflage

22 uniforms were mostly worn by soldiers. There were

23 exceptions.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

25 Mr. Stein. I should like to ask the witness whether,

Page 7289

1 on this camouflage, there were insignia or indication

2 of any military rank which Dario Kordic may have worn,

3 indicating the rank he had in the army.

4 A. I do not remember seeing the man with an

5 indication of any rank. I remember Kostroman, his

6 friend, who wore patches with the indication "Zenga,"

7 the national guards. That, I did see in my office.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 MR. STEIN:

10 Q. I don't want to burden this particular issue

11 much. There has been testimony that even women in

12 heels wore camouflage --

13 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Stein, the witness has

14 disagreed.

15 MR. STEIN: Very good, sir.

16 Q. Did you yourself ever wear camouflage?

17 A. Are you asking me?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. Yes, I, too, wore a camouflage uniform, but I

20 was not a member of any military formations.

21 Q. Now, you mentioned seeing some documents at

22 the Grand Cafe, and there was discussion at that point

23 in time -- this is June of '92 -- about who would be in

24 charge, the HVO or your party; do you recall that part

25 of your testimony?

Page 7290

1 A. Yes, I do, and I remember the day when I was

2 in the Grand Cafe; and when I was shown that document,

3 I was concerned about it.

4 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Stein?

5 MR. STEIN: Yes, sir.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your

7 Honour.

8 JUDGE ROBINSON: The witness has said that he

9 wore a camouflage uniform although he was not a member

10 of the military. I want to find out why he would wear

11 a camouflage uniform even though he wasn't a member of

12 the military.

13 A. Sometimes I would put it on for purely

14 practical reasons, because I had to go on foot to

15 headquarters in Novi Travnik, and this was a two- to

16 two-and-a-half-hour walk from my house, and I had to go

17 through the woods, through mud, so I wore it for

18 practical reasons.

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: What are those practical

20 reasons?

21 A. This was only rarely, because if you wore a

22 normal suit, branches would tear it as you passed

23 through the woods. And for easier maintenance. That

24 was the only reason.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

Page 7291

1 MR. STEIN:

2 Q. Where did you get the uniform?

3 A. I got the uniform from a friend of mine, or

4 from my brother, who was then a member of the TO

5 units.

6 Q. So you got it from the military?

7 A. I used mostly my brother's uniform, as I just

8 said.

9 Q. All right. I want to get back to this

10 document that you were shown. How long a chance did

11 you have to look at it?

12 A. I could have looked at it for as long as I

13 wanted. It was shown to me; it was on the table in

14 front of me in the cafe. I could read it clearly and

15 see what it was about.

16 Q. How long did you choose to look at it?

17 A. I read it through, understood the message of

18 the document, and I examined it. I don't remember for

19 how long. We sat there and had coffee; maybe for about

20 half an hour.

21 Q. But you don't recall who signed it?

22 A. I don't remember exactly. I know it was the

23 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, and my opinion was

24 that it was signed by the president of the Croatian

25 Community of Herceg-Bosna in those days, Mr. Boban. It

Page 7292

1 may have also been by Dario Kordic, but I do not

2 remember that.

3 Q. So now you're just guessing as to who it was

4 signed by; is that right, sir?

5 A. No, I don't know exactly who signed it. I

6 know it was one of the two; that is for sure.

7 Q. In any event, you told the Court that in

8 those days, the political and military leadership of

9 the HDZ was together. Is that your opinion?

10 A. Yes, that is my opinion, that it was one and

11 the same thing.

12 Q. That opinion is not based on any study of the

13 organisational documents of the HDZ; correct?

14 A. That is my opinion, on the basis of my own

15 experiences under those authorities.

16 Q. That's what I'm asking you about, sir. You

17 never saw any documents showing the structure of the

18 HDZ; correct?

19 A. I looked at the constitution or the statute,

20 whatever it was called, of the Croatian Community of

21 Herceg-Bosna. I did read that, and I saw how the

22 authorities were organised, and I saw that that was how

23 it was.

24 Q. When did you read that document?

25 A. I think I read it sometime at the end of '92

Page 7293

1 or the beginning of '93.

2 Q. And when was that document created,

3 regardless of when you read it?

4 A. I think it was at the beginning of May 1992.

5 I really do not remember, but I know that I had the

6 document in my hands and that I read it.

7 Q. And as to whether or not that structure

8 changed or was modified, those were issues that you

9 were not privy to; correct, sir?

10 A. I know that the people changed in the

11 municipal HVO in Novi Travnik. I saw those changes. I

12 know that the first president was Zvonko Grabovac.

13 After that it was Jozo Sekic who took over as president

14 of the HVO.

15 Q. But my question is not with the people. The

16 organisation, the documents, the internal workings of

17 that organisation were unknown to you, then and now?

18 A. I am not familiar with that.

19 Q. Now, you mentioned in May of '92 you were

20 sent by civil authorities to talk to Dario Kordic.

21 Why?

22 A. Yes, because I personally knew Hasan Efendic,

23 the TO staff commander, and Munir Jahic, who was the

24 Minister of Urban Affairs at the time. They managed to

25 get through to me and asked me to go to Busovaca and

Page 7294

1 see what had happened.

2 Q. They wanted you to go to Busovaca to find out

3 what happened in Busovaca? Is that your answer?

4 A. Yes. They wanted me to go to Dario Kordic to

5 talk to him about what had happened.

6 Q. And then to report back to them?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. Now, before you got there, you

9 indicated you were stopped. My question is, were there

10 other checkpoints -- let me rephrase the question.

11 There were other checkpoints between Novi

12 Travnik and Busovaca, were there not?

13 A. I don't recall where they all were, and I

14 don't even recall whether there were checkpoints. I

15 only remember that one checkpoint, where I could not

16 pass without control.

17 Q. All right. Now, as to you going to see

18 Mr. Kordic, you don't know what Mr. Kordic said to the

19 soldier who was stopping you, or whether it was

20 Mr. Kordic at all who was speaking with him; isn't that

21 correct?

22 A. I know, and I heard clearly, that the soldier

23 to whom I introduced myself and to whom I had given my

24 personal ID had announced me, and on the other end, I

25 heard the response clearly, the words of another

Page 7295

1 person, another soldier: "Send over the Turk," cursing

2 my mother, "so that we can cut his throat." And they

3 said that if Dario Kordic had guaranteed for me, that I

4 could pass.

5 Q. So whether these soldiers bowed to

6 Mr. Kordic's civil influence or other authority, you

7 can't say, can you?

8 A. It was clearly a part of the military

9 organisation. They wore military uniforms and they had

10 military communication equipment.

11 Q. Perhaps my question wasn't clear. As to

12 whether or not Kordic himself got on the phone, or the

13 radio, you have no knowledge?

14 A. I did not talk to him. I only received

15 permission to come to see him in Tisovac. The soldiers

16 were the ones who were talking. What I heard was

17 spoken by soldiers.

18 Q. And whether those soldiers were allowing you

19 to pass because of an order from Mr. Kordic or a

20 request, you don't know which; correct?

21 A. I know. After they received the permission

22 for me to pass through, I did pass through and went

23 over there.

24 Q. I'll move on.

25 Mr. Kordic met with you for about an hour;

Page 7296

1 correct?

2 A. Somewhere around there.

3 Q. And he told you what had happened in

4 Busovaca; correct?

5 A. Yes, that is correct.

6 Q. And he told you about the conflict between

7 the Muslims and the Croats in Busovaca, didn't he?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. He said that the problem -- or at least one

10 of the problems -- between the Muslims and the

11 Croats was the issue of arms from Kaonik; isn't that

12 correct?

13 A. I don't recall those issues, the arms from

14 Kaonik. I know that Muslims are not willing to place

15 themselves under the HVO authority, and that this is

16 what had to happen. He also mentioned some extremists

17 who did not mean well to the Croatian population in

18 Busovaca. This is how he called them, and also this is

19 how Ignac Kostroman, who was there with him, referred

20 to them.

21 Q. They also told you that the Muslims had

22 reneged on an arms deal for a 50-50 split from the

23 Kaonik JNA location; isn't that right?

24 A. I don't know of that. I do not recall this.

25 Q. In any event, Mr. Kordic was very candid,

Page 7297

1 very open with you, about all the events in Busovaca

2 that led to what happened there?

3 A. I believe that our conversation was very open

4 and very candid.

5 Q. And at the end of that conversation,

6 Mr. Kordic essentially said, "We're going to look out

7 for ourselves and our Croat brothers in

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina"; correct?

9 A. Yes, but he also said that the Croatian

10 Community of Herceg-Bosna had to be established

11 regardless of whether we liked it or not.

12 Q. Let's just take the first part. You agree

13 with me that he said his interest was his people;

14 correct?

15 A. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. Similarly, you can agree, at that time, your

17 interest was your people?

18 A. Right. But it was the interest of the other

19 people; in other words, we did not only -- we were not

20 only concerned about our own population.

21 Q. You, however, as a representative of your

22 political party, had to be concerned with the Muslim

23 interests in Novi Travnik; isn't that right?

24 A. I think I have already stated that in my

25 previous answer.

Page 7298

1 Q. What was going to happen in this power vacuum

2 essentially was the Croats would take care of their

3 people; you'd take care of the interest of your people;

4 you would meet, negotiate, and hopefully resolve

5 things, all against the background of the Serbs

6 surrounding you; isn't that right?

7 A. That is approximately how it went.

8 Q. Now, on May 28th, you mentioned you saw

9 another document. Do you recall your testimony

10 relative to that, the May 28th document?

11 A. Yes, I recall it. This is a document signed

12 by Mr. Kordic, and it regards the appointment of the

13 HVO authority in Travnik, headed by Mr. Grabovac.

14 Q. Did you keep a copy of that document?

15 A. I copied this document which I saw at the

16 centre for information. I made a copy for myself. I

17 know most of the people in that HVO government. I

18 cannot name all of them now and all the positions, but

19 I knew exactly who was in which position at the time.

20 Q. When you say "made a copy," is that a

21 photocopy or a handwritten copy?

22 A. No, no, no. A handwritten copy. I made

23 notes.

24 Q. What happened to those notes?

25 A. I have that document in my possession at

Page 7299

1 home.

2 Q. But not with you here in The Hague?

3 A. No, I don't. These were my personal notes.

4 Q. In your statement to the investigators from

5 the Tribunal, and I'm referencing page 3, paragraph --

6 the first full -- paragraph 2, the second full

7 paragraph on page 3, you make no mention of this

8 document. Any reason why?

9 A. I did not mention this document to the

10 investigators, but I had given -- I had mentioned it

11 and I gave all the names. I gave the full list of all

12 the names of the HVO government.

13 Q. All right. In any event, at that point in

14 time, that's 1992 May, there was also a similar

15 government for the Muslims; isn't that right?

16 A. No. The government for Muslims at that time

17 did not exist. We insisted and asked that the

18 presidency of the municipality be functioning; in other

19 words, that the government be in operation, such as

20 were elected during the democratic elections in 1990.

21 Q. Well, under those elections, the HDZ was the

22 majority party; correct?

23 A. Yes, that is correct.

24 Q. And under that theory, if I understand it,

25 they would pick the government; isn't that right?

Page 7300

1 A. No, they could not do so, because we had a

2 democratic government, and out of 60 deputies, at that

3 time the HDZ had 20. In other words, HDZ could not

4 form its own government without other parties. There

5 were SDA, SPS, SDS, SDP. There were representatives of

6 Serbs, six of them.

7 Q. It's been appropriately commented this is not

8 a case about politics, so I don't want to go deeply

9 into this. Let me go back to my first question. When

10 did you start your own government?

11 A. The Bosniaks established their own government

12 in late August or early September in 1992.

13 Q. In 1992.

14 A. I was not a representative of that

15 government. I had no -- I held no position in it.

16 Q. So by the end of the summer or early fall of

17 1992, in Novi Travnik, there were two governments; is

18 that correct?

19 A. Yes, that is correct.

20 Q. I want to move forward to June 19. Who was

21 the head of the -- who was the Muslim head of

22 propaganda and information?

23 A. I don't recall that we had a head for

24 propaganda and information in that period around

25 19 June 1992. I don't know whether the TO headquarters

Page 7301

1 had that position or not. I really could not say.

2 There was no such position in the civilian bodies.

3 Q. As to the military bodies, you wouldn't know

4 whether there was that position?

5 A. No, I don't know this, not for that period.

6 Q. Let's get back to this June 1992 meeting.

7 There were three political representatives for your

8 side; correct?

9 A. June 1992, I remember that it was myself, I

10 think Muharem Haskic, and I don't know who else was

11 with me. That was the morning, and I also know who was

12 there in the afternoon. On 19 June, two meetings were

13 held: one in Jozo Sekic's office, the president of the

14 municipality; and the other one with Zvonimir Grabovac,

15 the HVO head.

16 Q. Yes. I'm talking about the afternoon

17 meeting. In the afternoon meeting, from your side were

18 three civilian representatives and two military

19 representatives; correct?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. And on the Croat side, the HDZ, there were

22 three political representatives and two military

23 representatives; isn't that right?

24 A. There were five altogether.

25 Q. Separated out political and military, right,

Page 7302

1 just like you?

2 A. I believe that that was so.

3 Q. Well, I want to be very clear on this.

4 According to your statement: "The HDZ also had three

5 political reps," and you name them, "and two military

6 reps," and then you name them. Three and two; civil,

7 military. Right?

8 A. As I said, I believe that this was so. I

9 believe that that is how it was.

10 Q. Again, this is a question that I pondered

11 many times: In the middle of this civil war in June

12 1992, whose laws were you following, if any?

13 A. We do not agree on the fact that in June 1992

14 there was a civil war. The laws that we followed were

15 the laws of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

16 the laws which were adopted from the former Federal

17 Republic of Yugoslavia and the former Socialist

18 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19 Q. That was the Muslim position. The Croats

20 took a different position, didn't they?

21 A. That was obviously the case.

22 Q. Again, during these negotiations, as I

23 understand it, in this area where the last formal

24 legitimate legal election resulted in the HDZ having

25 the majority party, the HDZ took the position that

Page 7303

1 based on that, you and your party should be under them;

2 correct?

3 A. Those were precisely their positions, that

4 they are the main party, they were the majority

5 population, and that we needed to subordinate ourselves

6 to them.

7 Q. And in other areas, based on your knowledge

8 of what was going on, where they were the minority

9 party, they were willing to submit themselves to the TO

10 and be under them; isn't that right?

11 A. No. That is not so. That was not so.

12 Q. Let me ask you a question. You mentioned in

13 your direct-examination that you actually called

14 General Merdan. Is that right?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. You had access to his phone or Motorola and

17 just picked them up and called him?

18 A. I was sitting together with the Croatian

19 negotiating team, and I had access to a telephone

20 there. After I heard through the centre for

21 information that the regional TO staff from Zenica had

22 given instructions to the TO to subordinate themselves

23 to the HVO, then I asked to be -- that I be given

24 contact, and after I reached Dzemal Merdan he said that

25 this is not so, and we wanted to ask for an

Page 7304

1 unconditional cessation of fire.

2 Q. Now, regardless of the fact that you had

3 phone access to General Merdan, that access didn't make

4 you part of the military suddenly, did it?

5 JUDGE MAY: I'm not sure that's a matter that

6 the witness can answer.

7 MR. STEIN: May I rephrase, Judge? Thank

8 you.

9 Q. Just because you had military contacts, you

10 didn't have a military position at that time?

11 A. No, I had no military position at the time.

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted).

14 Q. And because of that position you wanted to

15 know what the military was doing, and they you, but

16 that didn't mean that you had command authority over

17 the military; right?

18 A. No, I had no command authority over the

19 military.

20 Q. It's also true that you wanted to know what

21 was going on on the military side, and they wanted to

22 know what was going on on the civil side?

23 A. That is quite logical.

24 Q. Now, I want to talk about the soldiers that

25 you talked with in June of 1992, and I want to make

Page 7305

1 sure that we're talking about the same thing. Do you

2 claim that you yourself spoke to ten HVO soldiers in

3 June of 1992?

4 A. I did not talk to all ten of them, but I

5 talked to the majority among the group.

6 Q. Yourself?

7 A. Yes, myself.

8 Q. What kind of shape were they in?

9 A. I thought that they were in very good shape,

10 but they were a bit scared.

11 Q. Let me turn your attention to the statement

12 that you gave to the Tribunal investigators, but before

13 I ask that, did these men give written statements?

14 A. I didn't understand this question.

15 Q. I'll withdraw the question and make it

16 easier. On page 5 of your statement to the

17 investigators from the Tribunal, you say, and I quote,

18 and this is from the third full paragraph:

19 "During the first attack in June of 1992,

20 approximately ten HVO soldiers from Busovaca were

21 arrested. They provided statements in which they claim

22 that Kordic sent soldiers from Busovaca to Novi

23 Travnik. I believe our local 708th Brigade or

24 department of security would have these statements.

25 The police chief, Sejbid Corbic [phoen], might have the

Page 7306

1 statements."

2 Now, I ask you again, sir, isn't it a fact

3 that the statements were in writing and given to

4 someone else?

5 A. From my conversation with them, this was the

6 answer that I received, and I assumed that the people

7 in the Territorial Defence had taken their written

8 statements at that time. So this is my opinion, and

9 this is why I stated it that way.

10 Q. And you never told the investigators from the

11 Tribunal that you, yourself, spoke with the soldiers;

12 isn't that correct?

13 A. I did say that I had spoken to them, and I

14 still say that I personally had spoken to them.

15 Q. And the investigator from the Tribunal didn't

16 put it down in your statement; is that probably what

17 happened?

18 A. You just read out that I had talked to them.

19 It is written in the statement.

20 Q. All right. I want to talk about Marinko

21 Marelja -- but I'm reminded, before I do: Can you give

22 us the names of the soldiers with whom you spoke?

23 A. The soldiers from Busovaca? I don't know any

24 of those names. I know they were all sort of shortish.

25 Q. Were you able to determine their rank or

Page 7307

1 their unit?

2 A. No, I could not determine it. I only saw

3 that they were wearing camouflage uniforms and that

4 they were scared, because they had been there for about

5 ten hours by then. They had spent the whole night

6 there.

7 Q. Again, getting back to my question: Marinko

8 Marelja, his various positions have been described in

9 your direct testimony. We can agree, can we not, that

10 he, like you, was involved with the civil authorities

11 of government; correct?

12 A. Yes, we can agree on that. I did this as a

13 professional, and he at that time was doing it as a

14 volunteer, on a voluntary basis.

15 Q. And he, like you, had no control over the

16 military; isn't that right?

17 A. Formally, he was not in the military. I am

18 not aware of him being a member of the armed forces.

19 Q. Now, we can also agree that in June, July,

20 and August of 1992, Muslim refugees started coming into

21 Novi Travnik?

22 A. We can agree that in this period -- that is,

23 May, June, July -- May, June, July, and then August

24 through October -- refugees had stayed in Novi Travnik,

25 not only the Muslims who had fled, but also Croats.

Page 7308

1 They were in the Sports Hall and also in the

2 kindergarten.

3 Q. And we can also agree that the Muslim

4 refugees were registered by the government of Novi

5 Travnik as citizens of Novi Travnik, given

6 identification cards, et cetera; correct?

7 A. We couldn't agree on that. We could agree

8 that they were registered, because there was a

9 coordinating committee who was taking care of that, and

10 this was -- it was appointed by the joint government

11 headed by Jozo Sekic. So this was a joint body which

12 cared for the refugees who were streaming in.

13 Q. And by "registered," do you mean registered

14 as citizens of Novi Travnik?

15 A. No, they were registered as displaced persons

16 in that period. Nobody gave them any ID cards;

17 therefore, there could be no talk about the change of

18 the population structure in favour of the Muslims in

19 that period.

20 Q. Well, you hit on something I was going to ask

21 you: If, indeed, they had been registered as citizens

22 of Novi Travnik, that would have changed the political

23 lay of the land; isn't that right?

24 A. I have already answered that question. That

25 was not the case. A joint body was in charge about

Page 7309

1 those people, and they registered them.

2 Q. I heard your answer, and I understand it. My

3 question, though, is: If in fact they had been

4 registered, that would have changed the political lay

5 of the land; correct?

6 A. None of us know how many Muslims and how many

7 Croats, or rather how many Bosniak displaced persons

8 and how many Croat displaced persons, arrived. I do

9 not have those figures, but I assume that these figures

10 can be checked in the municipality even today.

11 Q. In any event, sir, we need not debate or hang

12 on here much longer. My question really boils down

13 to: The refugees were given homes that the Serbs had

14 vacated in your town, Novi Travnik, during this period

15 of time; isn't that right?

16 A. No. That is not right at all. The refugees

17 from Novi Travnik mainly went to Croatia and to third

18 countries.

19 Q. Can we also agree that the refugees, the

20 Muslim refugees who began coming into Novi Travnik

21 during this period of time, started their own police

22 force?

23 A. No, we cannot agree about that because it is

24 not true.

25 Q. Is it fair to say, however, by the end of the

Page 7310

1 summer of 1992, Novi Travnik was divided; there was a

2 Croat side and there was a Muslim side?

3 A. I said that already with regard to the

4 authorities. The government was formed sometime in

5 August 1992. We cannot say that Novi Travnik was

6 totally divided in that time frame. It became

7 completely divided sometime in June or July 1993.

8 Q. My question wasn't precise. In June or July

9 of 1993, the geography, the physical lay of the land in

10 Novi Travnik, was such that there was a Croat side and

11 a Muslim side; is that right? Is that what I just

12 heard you say?

13 A. Yes. By then, that was how it was. There

14 was a Croatian and a Bosniak side within the framework

15 of the territory of Novi Travnik municipality.

16 Q. And do I take it that the two gas stations in

17 Novi Travnik, the two petrol stations, were in the

18 Croat side?

19 A. Yes. The two petrol stations were left on

20 the Croat side.

21 Q. And of course one of the issues in June of

22 1992 was access to petrol?

23 A. Not in June '92. There was no question of

24 access to petrol. At least, I'm not aware of it, and I

25 was active and present there at the time.

Page 7311

1 Q. Did that become an issue later?

2 A. I was told when I returned from Zagreb that

3 there were problems during the conflict in October '92,

4 allegedly something to do with the petrol station.

5 Q. And I take it these things were told to you

6 by others, and you weren't present during that point of

7 time, in which case I'll move on.

8 A. Yes, I only heard this from others. I wasn't

9 there, so I can't talk about it.

10 Q. Now, I want to talk about the rally in which

11 Mr. Kordic was present. First of all, you were invited

12 to that rally?

13 A. Yes, I was invited to that rally.

14 Q. There was nothing secret about that rally;

15 everyone could come and see. Right?

16 A. Yes, everyone could come and see.

17 Q. And what Mr. Kordic said was that the HVO was

18 being restructured; isn't that right? Changed?

19 A. Yes, he spoke about the organisation of the

20 HVO.

21 Q. And as I understand it, the TO also, from

22 time to time, would administer oaths, loyalty oaths, to

23 its members; isn't that right?

24 A. The Territorial Defence, two or three days

25 prior to that, had its own meeting in the same place.

Page 7312

1 Q. Same place, same kind of meeting?

2 A. Yes, the same place, same place. In front of

3 the municipality building in Novi Travnik.

4 Q. Same kind of oath-taking?

5 A. Certainly of a different content.

6 Q. Of course the words were different, but the

7 effect was the same; correct, sir?

8 A. We could agree about that.

9 Q. You were told that the military people

10 surrounding Dario Kordic were members of the Jokers

11 unit; correct?

12 A. Yes. That is what I was told by Croats who

13 were there, when I asked. The people carrying flags

14 reminded me of the people who were in Novi Travnik that

15 we have spoken about who had been arrested. They were

16 all shortish, and I was told that they were Kordic's

17 Jokers.

18 Q. On behalf of the short people in the world,

19 I'm -- my question to you, sir: The person who told

20 you, do you know the name of the individual who told

21 you that this unit was in fact called the Jokers?

22 A. Several people who were with me. For

23 example, like President Sekic, Ovlatovic [phoen], who

24 later on went with us to the hotel.

25 This is funny, but indeed, those people were

Page 7313

1 short in stature, so they reminded me of the people who

2 had been arrested previously.

3 Q. Were you aware, sir, that in fact the Jokers

4 unit had not been established till January of 1993?

5 A. No, I didn't know that. I don't know that.

6 I know what I was told: that those were Kordic's men.

7 Q. Were you told they were Kordic's men, or were

8 you specifically told the name of the unit?

9 A. Kordic's. Kordic's men.

10 Q. Fair enough. So you were told these were

11 Kordic's men, not that the name of the unit was the

12 Jokers; is that right?

13 A. I don't remember whether they gave me the

14 name of the unit. I'm not sure about that.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 On or about October 13th, 1992, Alija

17 Izetbegovic visited Novi Travnik, did he not?

18 A. I know that he came in that period of time.

19 Q. And he visited only Muslims; right?

20 A. I wasn't present at that meeting, and I don't

21 know where and whom he visited.

22 Q. In your travels and in your positions, did

23 you hear that Mr. Izetbegovic's visit in October of

24 1992 included any visits to any Croats?

25 A. I later heard that he was in the Territorial

Page 7314

1 Defence headquarters and that he spoke there with

2 representatives. I wasn't present, so I don't know.

3 Q. As far as you know, therefore, although the

4 president was in Travnik [sic], he spoke to the TO and

5 to Muslims, and you know of no instances in which he

6 spoke to the HDZ or the Croats; is that right?

7 A. I do not know whether he had any such talks.

8 As I said, I wasn't there. I wasn't in town, in fact,

9 I think, so I don't know these things.

10 Q. And for the record, I've been appropriately

11 corrected: I've been using "Travnik," and I've been

12 meaning "Novi Travnik," and that's what we've been

13 talking about.

14 By the way, are you related by blood or by

15 marriage to President Izetbegovic?

16 A. No, I'm not related to that family in any

17 way, by blood or marriage.

18 Q. Now, as to seeing a tape of Mr. Kordic in

19 Novi Travnik when you came back from Zagreb, first,

20 what were you doing in Zagreb?

21 A. I went to Minister Munir Jahic, who invited

22 me to take over some documents from him. He was in a

23 hotel in Zagreb. According to what I saw, he left upon

24 orders of the Prime Minister, Jure Pelivan. The

25 documents I took over had to do with the accommodation

Page 7315

1 of refugees in Bosnia.

2 Q. Minister Jahic is the Bosnian Minister for

3 what?

4 A. For urban planning and the environment.

5 Q. And he's a Muslim?

6 A. Yes. Jahic Munir.

7 Q. The tape you saw was a tape that someone did

8 with a hand camera or that was taken from television or

9 what, the video cassette that you mentioned?

10 A. I do not remember exactly where it was

11 filmed, but I think it must have been done by an

12 amateur, but I saw it personally, asking Refik Lendo

13 for a delivery.

14 Q. As to whether that tape was made on

15 October 23rd, 22nd, 21st, or 20th, you don't know?

16 A. I don't know when the tape was made, because

17 I arrived in Novi Travnik from Zagreb on the 24th of

18 October. It was a Saturday.

19 Q. All right. Let me move on. Do you consider

20 yourself to have friendly connections with Dario

21 Kordic?

22 A. I cannot say that I was on friendly terms

23 with Dario Kordic, but I think we knew one another

24 quite well. I think we met sometime in 1991, but I

25 can't exactly remember where.

Page 7316

1 Q. Well, the reason I ask is you've had coffee

2 with Mr. Kordic; correct?

3 A. Yes, yes. I had coffee with Mr. Kordic and

4 with Marelja. A cafe I often went to was on the way

5 from my apartment to the municipality building where I

6 worked. But in view of the fact that Kordic was on

7 exceptional good terms with Marinko Marelja, we would

8 meet often.

9 Q. But my point is: Simply because you were

10 seen having coffee with Marelja and/or Kordic didn't

11 mean that you were all fast, good friends, did it?

12 A. I don't think you could make such a

13 conclusion.

14 Q. Therefore, we can agree, can we not, that

15 even if Mr. Kordic and Mr. Marelja had coffee and were

16 seen together, that doesn't necessarily make them fast,

17 good friends?

18 A. Those are my assumptions.

19 Q. Now, I want to turn your attention to the end

20 of your testimony, in which you said that certain

21 gentlemen said frequently that they would always have

22 to ask of their superiors or their commanders when you

23 were negotiating. Do you remember that part, when the

24 Judge was asking you some questions? Remember that

25 part?

Page 7317

1 A. Yes. Yes, I do remember.

2 Q. You were negotiating with the gentlemen, as

3 you say, who were on the civil side of what was

4 happening in Bosnia; isn't that right? You weren't

5 negotiating with the military?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And --

8 A. Yes. I mostly sought negotiators in members

9 of the HDZ of Novi Travnik.

10 Q. These individuals told you they had to report

11 to their higher level authority on the civil side;

12 correct?

13 A. Yes. That was a frequent answer.

14 Q. And those three men that you mentioned were

15 all civilians. Mr. Sekic -- and the transcript doesn't

16 say the other names -- Zoran Matosevic, they're all

17 civilian --

18 A. Zoran Matosevic, not Mahmutovic.

19 Q. I'm sorry. Either I mispronounced it or it

20 was written wrong. It doesn't matter. They're all

21 civil authorities; right?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. During the conflict in the summer of 1992 and

24 into 1993, Novi Travnik had no water; isn't that

25 right?

Page 7318

1 A. When?

2 Q. During the summer of 1992, into 1993, Novi

3 Travnik had no water?

4 A. I think there were occasional problems, but

5 Novi Travnik is having problems with water even today,

6 when there's no conflict, and the officials are well

7 aware of that, especially the part of the town in which

8 Bosniaks are living today.

9 Q. During this same conflict, Novi Travnik had

10 no electricity?

11 A. Yes, that is so. Mostly there was no

12 electricity.

13 Q. And no telephone?

14 A. We didn't have any.

15 Q. Can we also agree that the access to the

16 water, the control of the water, was from the Muslim

17 side of town?

18 A. Novi Travnik is supplied from two sources of

19 water, and both of them were, conditionally speaking,

20 under the control of the Bosniaks.

21 Q. The same thing with the electricity, under

22 the control of the Bosniaks?

23 A. No. I couldn't really tell.

24 Q. And the telephones, under control of the

25 Bosniaks?

Page 7319

1 A. I think the telephone was under the control

2 of the Croats, because the post office was on the Croat

3 side. The telephone was under Croat control.

4 Q. Let me finish this theme, and that is:

5 During the conflict, it's fair to say that the schools

6 in the Lasva Valley were closed?

7 A. Mostly they were closed, yes. I don't

8 remember exactly when they started working again in our

9 area.

10 Q. Fair enough. During the time they were

11 closed, is it fair to say the Muslims sent their

12 children to special Muslim schools?

13 A. No, that cannot be said, because I am not

14 aware of such schools. In my municipality, there were

15 no such schools. I don't know what schools you're

16 referring to.

17 MR. STEIN: I'm almost at the end, for Your

18 Honours' edification. I have two more areas I'd like

19 to go into, if I may, before the break.

20 Q. The first is -- again, I think we've covered

21 this. You yourself, in your position and because of

22 your position, have never given a military order to a

23 military unit; right?

24 A. No, I have never given such an order, nor did

25 I have the authority to do that.

Page 7320

1 Q. Certain members of the military, in response

2 to a request from you, may do what you ask, and, in

3 fact, have done what you've asked; isn't that right?

4 A. Mostly I didn't make any such requests. I

5 didn't do anything that I was not authorised and

6 responsible for.

7 Q. My last question is this: Can we also agree

8 that the line that divided your town, Novi Travnik,

9 during the conflict in 1993, still divides your town?

10 There's still a Croat side and there's still a Muslim

11 side?

12 A. In Novi Travnik today, there is a unified

13 government established on the basis of the constitution

14 of the republic and the canton. There is a municipal

15 council in Novi Travnik presided by a Bosniak, and

16 there is a municipal chief who is a Croat. He is the

17 executive and he has control of the executive and the

18 legislative. I think those divisions are gradually

19 being overcome with the return of people to their

20 former homes.

21 Q. My fault for being --

22 A. So the power is in these two institutions.

23 Q. My fault for being imprecise. On the ground

24 in Novi Travnik today, in one were to walk into the

25 streets, there would be a Croat side and a Bosniak

Page 7321

1 side; correct?

2 A. That would not be visible for people coming

3 from the outside and who don't know the town. Those

4 who know where the lines were still remember them, but

5 people are coming back and those lines are being lost.

6 Q. Again, forgive me for being imprecise, but

7 the point remains: The Bosniaks live on one side; the

8 Croats live on the other.

9 A. Mostly that is so, but gradually that is

10 being overcome. I think I was quite clear. As people

11 are returning to their homes from which they were

12 evicted, those lines are disappearing.

13 MR. STEIN: Thank you very much, Your

14 Honours. I have nothing more.

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, how long are you

16 likely to be with this witness?

17 MR. KOVACIC: I think no longer than half an

18 hour, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE MAY: We'll take the adjournment now.

20 We'll sit again at half past 11.00.

21 Mr. Kovacic, if you could stick to the half

22 hour, we could get on with another witness.

23 Mr. Lopez-Terres, if you could keep

24 re-examination to an absolute minimum, it will save

25 time.

Page 7322

1 MR. STEIN: May we ask who the next witness

2 is, without revealing anything, or at least in the

3 recess tell us?

4 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you can do it in the

5 usual way. Very well. Half past 11.00.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

9 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness P, my apologies for

12 having to address you in this manner, but this is for

13 your own protection. I am a Defence attorney for

14 Mr. Mario Cerkez. My name is Bozidar Kovacic, and

15 along with my colleague, Mr. Mikulicic, we represent

16 this client.

17 Towards the end of your evidence yesterday,

18 when asked by the Prosecutor, you said that in the

19 early months of 1993, in Novi Travnik, there were some

20 units from Herzegovina called Bruno Busic; is that

21 correct?

22 A. All these men were known as Herzegovinians,

23 and later on, we learned that they belonged to the

24 Bruno Busic unit.

25 Q. Then you also said that in Novi Travnik there

Page 7323

1 was a brigade called Stjepan Tomasevic which was active

2 there; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, that is correct. In Novi Travnik there

4 was also a brigade which bore the name of Stjepan

5 Tomasevic. It was a local brigade, and its commander

6 at the time was Mario Cerkez.

7 Q. Let's take it one step at a time, please.

8 Can we agree that the Bruno Busic Brigade came from

9 outside and that the Stjepan Tomasevic was a local

10 unit?

11 A. Yes, we can agree on that.

12 Q. Earlier, you gave a statement to the

13 investigators of the Tribunal, on 13 September 1995,

14 and this statement has been mentioned here today. Let

15 me try to refresh your memory. Towards the very end of

16 it, you said, and I quote: "I am not sure about the

17 chain of command of the HVO military, but I know that

18 the following people were HVO commanders in Novi

19 Travnik." And then you mention some names: Ivica

20 Markovic, Mario Cerkez, Borivoj Malbasic, and Zeljko

21 Sabic.

22 A. No, it should be Zeljko Sabljic.

23 Q. Very well; it was misspelled.

24 And then you also added, "I am not sure of

25 when these people acted as commanders." So from this,

Page 7324

1 it would follow that in 1995, that you mentioned names

2 of people who were in positions of command, but you did

3 not tell specifically who was commander at what time.

4 This is what would follow from the statement; do you

5 agree with me?

6 A. Yes, but today I --

7 Q. Excuse me, but would you please just answer

8 the question: That would follow from the statement?

9 A. I named them as I knew, but I approximately

10 know who was commander in which period.

11 Q. Very well. And yesterday, during your

12 examination, you said that Cerkez was the commander of

13 the Tomasevic Brigade, as you said, in the early months

14 of 1993. And from the previous sentences, it would

15 mean that this was January or February of 1993. My

16 question to you is: How do you recall this better and

17 more specifically now than when you gave the statement

18 to the investigators?

19 A. I just spoke more specifically. I recalled

20 it then and I recall it now, that in this period, Mario

21 Cerkez was the commander, because I met him at least on

22 two occasions in early 1993. We attended certain

23 meetings together. I remember the meeting which ended

24 by the commander of the brigade I think had left with

25 them to a restaurant, Oskar, where he was arrested and

Page 7325

1 taken to Busovaca.

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I would like

3 the usher to show the witness D22/2, which is related

4 to Witness F's evidence.

5 Q. Witness P, will you please first focus on the

6 line where the date is; that is, that was entered by

7 hand. And then, please, if you can focus then on

8 signatures, there are four signatories. Your signature

9 is the second?

10 A. Yes, but there were other meetings that

11 followed this where he was present, not here.

12 Q. If you would just please wait for the

13 question, let us first lay the ground for it. This was

14 one of the meetings which you had mentioned; is that

15 so?

16 A. No, this was not one of the two meetings.

17 Q. Do you recall this meeting from which this

18 report was issued?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. So we can conclude that representatives of

21 both parties were present -- that is, both the HDZ and

22 the SDA parties -- as well as representatives of both

23 military organisations, the HVO and the BiH?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. (redacted)

Page 7326

1 (redacted); and for the Novi

2 Travnik HVO, Borivoj Malbasic signed?

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 Q. So on 13 January, we can conclude that

5 Borivoj Malbasic was the commander of the HVO brigade.

6 You said that Cerkez was not present at that meeting?

7 A. It is obvious that Cerkez was not present in

8 this meeting.

9 Q. You just used the word "obvious." What do

10 you mean by that?

11 A. He was not at this meeting, as can be seen

12 from this document. I know that Cerkez succeeded

13 Borivoj Malbasic. I don't know which period, but I

14 know that it was before March 1993. And during this

15 period, I attended at least two meetings with him.

16 Q. So you don't know with respect to January and

17 February?

18 A. I don't know about January. I don't know

19 exactly when he was appointed.

20 Q. What about February?

21 A. I think that he was appointed sometime in

22 February.

23 Q. Witness Ismet Sahinovic told us here that

24 Cerkez did attend the meeting on 13 January.

25 A. I don't recall whether he was in that

Page 7327

1 meeting.

2 Q. Very well. Thank you. But while we're at

3 this meeting, you will agree with me that the main

4 conflicts in Novi Travnik between the army and the HVO,

5 one was on 19 June '92, and then 12th October 1992, and

6 then January to July, there was a third?

7 A. That is correct.

8 Q. From your evidence, in early 1993 and late

9 1992, there were tensions, and there were a number of

10 incidents; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that is correct.

12 Q. We said that on the Croatian side, the side

13 of the HVO, that there were units which arrived from

14 outside of Novi Travnik?

15 A. Yes, everybody knows this.

16 Q. On the Bosniak side, were there also units

17 which came from outside?

18 A. I don't know that there was a single unit

19 other than the TO units and the BH army who were there.

20 Q. Were units from Krajina there, the so-called

21 Krajisnici?

22 A. From what I know, Krajisnici were in Travnik.

23 Q. What about Ravno and Rostovo?

24 A. That is in Novi Travnik municipality.

25 Q. What is Ravno Rostovo? Ravno Rostovo is a

Page 7328

1 village?

2 A. I don't know that Krajisnici were there in

3 that period.

4 Q. You don't know that in late 1992 and early

5 1993, the Krajisnici were present there?

6 A. I know that they were present in Travnik, but

7 not in Novi Travnik.

8 Q. If I were to tell you specifically that this

9 had to do with the 7th Muslim Brigade, which was

10 stationed in the motel in Ravno Rostovo, would that

11 refresh your memory?

12 A. The 7th Muslim Brigade was not present in the

13 territory of the Novi Travnik municipality.

14 Q. Very well. Let's return to this area. You

15 agree that there were tensions around?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you do not agree that there were also

18 extremists on the Muslim side?

19 A. I don't know what you're referring to, what

20 extremists you are referring to.

21 Q. A moment ago you agreed that there were

22 extremists on both sides.

23 A. No, that is not what I said.

24 Q. Were there extremists on the Croat side?

25 A. There were people who killed and terrorised.

Page 7329

1 I don't know that there were such people on our side,

2 who persecuted people of Croat ethnic background.

3 Q. Who kidnapped four HVO officers later on?

4 A. I don't know this. I don't know what you're

5 referring to.

6 Q. Let's go back to the document you have in

7 front of you. Could you please read point 1 of this.

8 A. "The parties, the SDA and the HDZ, take

9 distance from all the public announcements produced by

10 the media controlled by either of the ethnic groups."

11 Q. Why was this statement made? What did this

12 refer to?

13 A. This had to do with the public announcements

14 produced by the HDZ or the HVO regarding certain issues

15 and certain positions in relation to Novi Travnik, and

16 also had to do with certain announcements that came

17 from the ABiH headquarters.

18 Q. My understanding is that they're trying to

19 calm things down and take some distance from that?

20 A. That is how I understand it, too.

21 Q. Let's move on to point 2.

22 A. "All participants in this meeting take

23 distance from all the excess situations and believe

24 that strict measures should be taken against

25 perpetrators of these incidents on both sides."

Page 7330

1 Q. Would you agree with me that both sides

2 agreed that there are people who are causing these

3 incidents on both sides?

4 A. Yes, it is obvious, because representatives

5 of both sides are present there.

6 THE INTERPRETER: Can both counsel and

7 witness slow down a little bit, because it is hard to

8 interpret.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, there is a request

10 from the interpreters to slow down. And Witness P,

11 could you slow down too, please.

12 Thank you.

13 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Witness P, my fault. The problem that we

15 have is we understand each other well, so we engage in

16 very fast exchanges.

17 I'm going to try to be more mindful of it.

18 In order not to take too much time, I think

19 the document speaks for itself. There are further

20 measures mentioned that both sides take upon themselves

21 to do in order to calm down the situation.

22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] With the

23 usher's assistance, could I have Exhibit D2/2 shown to

24 the witness?

25 Q. Witness P, would you first please look at the

Page 7331

1 heading? The document was issued on the

2 13th January, in Mostar, by the main headquarters. It

3 was on the same day when this public announcement was

4 also drafted and, according to my information, several

5 hours after you agreed on that previous announcement.

6 This is obviously a document which obligates

7 the HVO units to actively engage in cooperation. Have

8 you seen such a document?

9 A. I see it for the first time.

10 Q. Had you heard of it?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Very well. Thank you. At the beginning of

13 the conflict in Novi Travnik, in early summer or before

14 the confrontation in June, you also mentioned that HOS

15 was present, H-O-S, in Novi Travnik?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Would you please explain who HOS was?

18 A. These were men wearing black uniforms. We

19 knew them as such, and they also presented themselves

20 as members of HOS. I know certain of them by names.

21 Suse, and Deba, and some others, Burce [phoen].

22 Q. HOS was not a member of the HVO in Novi

23 Travnik at that time?

24 A. I don't know whether HOS was ever a part of

25 the HVO.

Page 7332

1 Q. So you agree with me that HOS was an

2 independent force?

3 A. I could not agree with it, nor can I deny

4 it. I don't know how they functioned. I don't know

5 whether they were part of the HVO, but I know that they

6 had their own uniforms.

7 Q. The general view was that they were rather

8 extremist; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, that was the general view. Also, a

10 prevailing view was that the HVO and the HOS were very

11 close.

12 Q. But you don't know whether one was part of

13 the other?

14 A. I don't know what the chain of command was.

15 Q. Would you agree with me that in late 1992 and

16 early 1993, HOS was a dominant force in that --

17 A. I'm sorry, I'm not sure that you got the

18 years right.

19 Q. It was 1992, 1993.

20 A. HOS was never the dominant force in Novi

21 Travnik.

22 Q. Would you agree that HOS was mostly

23 responsible for all the incidents?

24 A. No, I do not agree with that.

25 Q. Let me take you back to the evidence you gave

Page 7333

1 yesterday and with which we started. After having said

2 that Bruno Busic Brigade was in town and that there was

3 also the local brigade, Stjepan Tomasevic, you then

4 said that Cerkez was the commander. And this is what

5 you confirmed now; you said that he was the commander

6 of the HVO. What were you referring to? That he was

7 commander of both of these brigades, the Stjepan

8 Tomasevic and Bruno Busic?

9 A. At that time he represented to us that he was

10 the first and most responsible for all the forces

11 wearing uniforms in Novi Travnik.

12 Q. So are you implying that he was also -- that

13 he had authority over the brigade which was not from

14 town?

15 A. He was the only one who came to the

16 meetings.

17 Q. You mean at the time when Cerkez was the

18 commander?

19 A. Yes. He was commander before April 15.

20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I

21 have a document here which indisputably shows the date

22 when Cerkez took over as commander of the Stjepan

23 Tomasevic Brigade.

24 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment, Mr. Kovacic. At

25 this stage you're examining the witness. Is this a

Page 7334

1 document which the witness would have seen?

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I believe that

3 he was not in a position to have seen it.

4 JUDGE MAY: There seems little point putting

5 it to him. In due course you can produce it to us as

6 part of your case or put it to a witness who may have

7 seen it, but at the moment the witness has given his

8 evidence, you dispute it. It would seem there's little

9 point going on with the argument.

10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] May I be

11 allowed to use that document as my own source of

12 knowledge, for me to be able to quote it regarding the

13 date, the number, the contents, and to ask the witness

14 whether he can comment on it?

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Q. Witness P, I have a document issued by the

18 command of the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade,

19 number 423/93, and later on, as His Honour has said, it

20 will be produced. It was issued on the 8th of

21 February, 1993, and the heading is "The takeover of the

22 command position of the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade," and

23 it is signed at the end of the document by Borivoje

24 Malbsasic and Mario Cerkez as the person taking over

25 the duties of commander.

Page 7335

1 Do you still claim that in the course of

2 January, Mario Cerkez was the main HVO commander?

3 A. I said that I did not remember when Mario

4 Cerkez came as commander to Novi Travnik. I know that

5 in October 1992, in the conflict, the commander was

6 Vlado Juric. After that came Borivoje Malbsasic from

7 Vares, and then the next successor was Mario Cerkez.

8 Q. I wish to show you that we're talking about

9 the command of the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade.

10 JUDGE MAY: Look, I wonder if there's much

11 point in going on with this. The witness has given his

12 evidence, you've challenged it, you've put the document

13 to him, Mr. Kovacic. I don't think we're going to get

14 much further. The witness has said he doesn't remember

15 the precise date.

16 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Is it true that at the end

18 of 1992, the period we're talking about, end of 1992,

19 beginning of 1993, the BH army and the HVO had agreed

20 upon divided sectors on the front towards the Serbs on

21 Mount Vlasic?

22 A. In talks held in December 1992, which I

23 attended together with Mr. Thebault Blaskic and General

24 Slobodan Praljak, I could have heard that. I was also

25 able to hear this from members of the BH army, who were

Page 7336

1 saying that the HVO was doing nothing on those lines.

2 Q. Can I take it, then, that the BH army and the

3 HVO were reproaching one another: who was doing more

4 or less on the front lines?

5 A. Yes, I think something like that, although I

6 can't be more precise.

7 Q. So regardless of their merits, who did more

8 or less on the front, can we agree that both armies

9 were there and that they held the front towards the

10 Serbs?

11 A. We can agree that they held the front lines.

12 Q. Can we also agree that there was a certain

13 degree of cooperation between them for them to be able

14 to hold those lines?

15 A. I'm not competent to comment on these

16 things.

17 Q. You didn't hear about it?

18 A. I have already said what I heard.

19 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I should like

20 to tender a document and then ask a question to the

21 witness. I have reason to believe that the witness may

22 have seen it on an occasion.

23 JUDGE MAY: Put the document to the witness

24 and see if he saw it or not.

25 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

Page 7337

1 Q. Witness P, will you please tell me first --

2 this is a letter addressed to the commander of the

3 BH army in Novi Travnik. I have been told that it was

4 addressed to the mentioned gentleman,

5 Mr. Valenta [sic], and that the political leadership of

6 the Bosniaks in Novi Travnik were informed of it as a

7 sign of an improvement of relations. Have you ever

8 seen this document or heard about it?

9 A. I never saw it, nor did I hear about it.

10 What I can say is that the 23rd of Sijecanj --

11 Q. If that is January.

12 A. Yes, January. Refik Lendo at that time was

13 not the commander of the army. Bisljim Zurapi was the

14 commander. He took over sometime in December of 1992,

15 I think the 17th, and he took over command of the unit.

16 Q. Did you hear that at that time Malbasic and

17 Zurapi managed significantly to improve their

18 cooperation along the front against the Serbs?

19 A. I heard and I personally believe that that

20 was so.

21 Q. Would you agree that both Zurapi and Malbasic

22 were cooperative and moderate people?

23 A. I agree.

24 Q. Can we agree, then, that at least in this

25 period, the end of January, relations between the

Page 7338

1 armies, at least as regards the common struggle against

2 the aggressor, had significantly improved?

3 A. I think that was so.

4 Q. May I draw your attention to this document

5 which was signed by Malbasic again as the command [sic]

6 under the name "Command" of the Stjepan Tomasevic

7 Brigade?

8 A. I see that.

9 Q. So there is no HVO there as some kind of a

10 general umbrella force?

11 A. Yes, there is, up in the heading, "Croatian

12 Defence Council." The brigade command. So the brigade

13 as part of the HVO, as part of the armed forces of the

14 HZ-HB.

15 Q. So we agree that Stjepan Tomasevic, judging

16 by this document, was one of the units within the HVO?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be

20 numbered D38/2.

21 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours, just a little

22 error in the transcript. Probably it will be

23 corrected, but just in case, page 60, line 7, instead

24 of "Lendo," the name "Valenta" was recorded. We were

25 talking about "Lendo."

Page 7339

1 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Tell us, please, Mr. P -- let us go back to

4 HOS for a few more minutes, which was present in Novi

5 Travnik. Do you know where their command post was?

6 A. I couldn't say with precision where their

7 command post was.

8 Q. We heard a witness here, Witness C, who told

9 us that HOS was based in the hotel in Novi Travnik --

10 that was where their command post was -- and the HVO in

11 the old hotel in Novi Travnik.

12 A. I know that they were all somewhere around

13 there, either the old hotel or the new hotel. Whether

14 they had any other locales, I can't recall just now.

15 Q. All right. Talking about the commanders, a

16 witness, witness Ismet Sahinovic, who was head of

17 security in Bratstvo, you know him?

18 A. Yes, I do.

19 Q. He told us that Mario Cerkez was deputy

20 commander of Malbasic.

21 A. I don't know what position he held. He may

22 have held that position, but I do not recall when he

23 came to that meeting I mentioned earlier on.

24 Q. Let us go back to 1991 for a moment.

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, I don't want to

Page 7340

1 interrupt you unnecessarily, but we are going over a

2 great deal of ground here, some of which has been the

3 subject of evidence already. You told us you would be

4 half an hour. You've been about 40 minutes, I think.

5 Could we move on as expeditiously as we can?

6 MR. KOVACIC: I will do my best, Your Honour,

7 but some answers surprised me, and I used the documents

8 and spent too much time probably. I'll be

9 expeditious.

10 Q. [Interpretation] Let us go back briefly to

11 the period while (redacted)

12 (redacted). Do you recall,

13 from that period, that at the level of the republic --

14 and this applied to other areas of Yugoslavia -- a

15 decision had been taken whereby weapons had been

16 virtually taken away from the Territorial Defence; that

17 is, the Territorial Defence had to hand in their

18 weapons?

19 A. I'm aware of that decision, but exactly when

20 it was taken, I don't know. But certainly before the

21 aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22 Q. Do you know that your municipality, like the

23 other surrounding ones, like Vitez and Busovaca and

24 Kiseljak and the entire surroundings, did hand in their

25 weapons to the army, as requested by the army, and that

Page 7341

1 in your particular case it was stored at Slimena?

2 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.

3 Q. After that, when in 1992, as you told us, the

4 TO was divided along ethnic lines, that organisation

5 started all over from the beginning on both sides?

6 A. Yes. It could be said like that.

7 Q. They obviously tried to arm themselves?

8 A. Certainly.

9 Q. We spoke about the weapons from Bratstvo. We

10 mentioned some other sources as well. Do you recall

11 that the municipalities managed to restore some of the

12 weapons that had been stored on the basis of that

13 previous decision with the JNA?

14 A. Yes. I know that at Slimena there was an

15 attack -- let me put it in those words -- on the

16 warehouse and that both members of the HVO and the TO

17 armed themselves from that source.

18 Q. We heard that the attack was led by Mr. Filip

19 Filipovic, whom you mentioned.

20 A. Yes, I heard that.

21 Q. You mentioned him as a person who helped

22 you.

23 A. Yes. I know him personally, and I think that

24 he did.

25 Q. Did you ever hear that the assistant of Filip

Page 7342

1 Filipovic, in that operation, was the accused Mario

2 Cerkez?

3 A. I am not aware of that.

4 Q. Very well. Thank you, Witness, for your

5 answers.

6 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours, I'm closing now.

7 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes,

8 Mr. Lopez-Terres, do you have any questions?

9 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] A few

10 questions for the witness, Mr. President, and I would

11 like to take advantage of this time to say that at

12 least one document by the Defence carried the name of

13 the witness, and perhaps that document needs to be

14 protected or placed under seal.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I'm sure that can be done.

16 Re-examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness P, a moment ago

18 we referred to the situation in Bosnia in April 1992.

19 There was reference to the government in Sarajevo,

20 which was under siege, and the power vacuum that

21 existed at the time. You know that the Croatian

22 Community of Herceg-Bosna was created in November 1991?

23 A. Yes, I do know that.

24 Q. In that period, was there a power vacuum in

25 Bosnia and did the government function normally or

Page 7343

1 not?

2 A. In November there was no power vacuum at the

3 level of the republic or at the municipality level.

4 Q. Thank you. In the month of May 1992, you

5 went to Busovaca upon the request of the commander of

6 the Territorial Defence in Sarajevo and the minister

7 for town planning and the environment, who contacted

8 you for you to visit Dario Kordic and to discuss with

9 him the events in Busovaca.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. So you had contacts with military

12 representatives, official military representatives, as

13 well as with the civil representatives of the

14 government in Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes. In those days, I could still be in

16 touch with them, and this was possible until sometime

17 -- the 18th or 19th of June, 1992. All this could be

18 done by telephone.

19 Q. Thank you. It was also stated in the course

20 of your cross-examination that the Serb part of Bosnia

21 did not participate in the referendum, that it

22 boycotted the referendum. I think that it was

23 indicated by the Defence counsel that the referendum

24 took place in April 1992. Would you agree with me that

25 the referendum in fact took place on the 29th of

Page 7344

1 February and the 1st of March, 1992?

2 A. Yes, exactly so. The referendum on the

3 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina was held on the 29th

4 of February and the 1st of March. It was a Saturday

5 and a Sunday.

6 Q. Thank you. Regarding the Bratstvo factory

7 that was referred to on a number of occasions, is it

8 not true that many members of the HVO government of

9 Novi Travnik municipality were former employees or

10 current employees of the Bratstvo factory?

11 A. I think they were, yes.

12 Q. Mr. Sekic himself was an employee in the

13 Bratstvo factory?

14 A. Yes, he came from Bratstvo as president of

15 the municipality, Sekic.

16 Q. You were asked about uniforms that Mr. Kordic

17 wore, and you answered that you saw him in camouflage

18 uniforms. Then you were asked whether there was an

19 indication of rank. You remember that?

20 A. Yes, I remember the uniform, but I don't

21 remember seeing the rank, in Mr. Kordic's case.

22 Q. You had occasion to meet Colonel Blaskic in

23 the period that we have discussed. Do you remember

24 whether Colonel Blaskic himself bore any insignia of

25 rank on his uniform?

Page 7345

1 A. I cannot remember, but he probably did,

2 because he worked exclusively in the military. I

3 personally do not remember which rank he had.

4 Q. Regarding Mr. Marinko Marelja, is it true

5 that Mr. Marelja was an official of the police in Novi

6 Travnik before engaging in the catering business of the

7 Grand Cafe?

8 A. As far as I know, he was never head of the

9 police; he was an ordinary police officer. And as far

10 as I know, he was thrown out of the police before the

11 war.

12 Q. Do you know why?

13 A. Not exactly. I do not know exactly why.

14 Q. He was fired from the police; is that what

15 you wanted to say?

16 A. Yes, certainly.

17 Q. This morning there was a reference to the

18 visit of President Izetbegovic in October 1992 in

19 Central Bosnia. I'm not quite sure that I understood

20 quite well where this visit took place. Was it

21 Travnik, or Novi Travnik?

22 A. As far as I know, in that period, he came to

23 Novi Travnik. But I wasn't present at that meeting, so

24 I don't know what took place.

25 Q. I asked you this question because I think in

Page 7346

1 the transcript there was reference to Travnik and not

2 Novi Travnik, so I wanted to make sure.

3 Two last points, Witness P. You were shown a

4 document a moment ago, Defence Document D22, dated the

5 13th of January, 1993. It is a document signed by

6 General Petkovic.

7 A. Yes. I have that document in front of me.

8 Q. Do you see the name of Novi Travnik mentioned

9 among the towns listed among those to which this order

10 is addressed?

11 A. Unfortunately, I do not see the name of Novi

12 Travnik here.

13 Q. All the towns listed are towns other than

14 Novi Travnik; do we agree?

15 A. Yes. That is so.

16 Q. Do you know, Witness P, that two days after

17 this order that we are referring to, the same general,

18 General Petkovic, issued an order that all units of the

19 BiH army in cantons 3, 8, and 10 should go under the

20 command of the HVO?

21 A. I'm not familiar with that. I do not recall

22 that.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A last question, regarding Mr. Borivoje

25 Malbasic. I think you indicated he was a moderate?

Page 7347

1 A. That is how he seemed to me.

2 Q. Do you know why he was dismissed from his

3 position, in February 1993, according to the document

4 shown to us?

5 A. No, really, I do not know that.

6 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I have no

7 further questions, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

9 Witness P, that concludes your evidence.

10 Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to

11 give it. You are now released.

12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 MS. SOMERS: Before calling the next witness,

15 I would ask for just a moment to ask some guidance from

16 the Court on some preliminary matters. The witness who

17 will be testifying next has not sought in advance any

18 measures, but I want to caution the Court that he is

19 feeling not well. Apparently he has a chronic

20 condition -- perhaps -- would this be more appropriate

21 in private session?

22 JUDGE MAY: Are we in private session?

23 THE REGISTRAR: No, we are in open session.

24 JUDGE MAY: Right. We will go into private

25 session.

Page 7348

1 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7349

1

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4

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6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 page 7349 redacted private session

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 7350

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Open session]

23 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

25 truth.

Page 7351

1 WITNESS: SULEJMAN KAVAZOVIC

2 [Witness answers through interpreter]

3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kavazovic, take a seat.

4 A. Thank you.

5 JUDGE MAY: Now, I understand that you may

6 not be feeling very well; thank you for coming to give

7 your evidence anyway. We will try to deal with matters

8 as quickly as we can, and if possible, get through your

9 evidence today in order to get you away. It may take a

10 little longer. But if you at any stage feel unwell,

11 just say so, and we'll take what measures we can; and

12 certainly, if you want to adjourn for any reason, we

13 will do that. But I've asked counsel to be as quick as

14 they can, both in examination-in-chief and

15 cross-examination.

16 Yes, Ms. Somers.

17 Examined by Ms. Somers:

18 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, you were born on the 15th of

19 July, 1969, in Vrhovine, in Vitez municipality; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. By ethnicity you are a Bosniak, and your

23 religious preference is Islam?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. You have completed your education through

Page 7352

1 military high school in Novi Belgrade?

2 A. Yes. I finished at the People's University

3 called Bozidar Adzija.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... officer

5 of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

6 A. Yes, I'm currently an officer of the army of

7 the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

8 Q. And prior to that you were an officer -- or

9 you were in the JNA; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. At what point did you leave the JNA? And

12 explain why.

13 JUDGE MAY: Just let me interrupt, please.

14 MS. SOMERS: Yes. I'm sorry.

15 JUDGE MAY: What rank did you hold in the

16 JNA?

17 A. I was a lieutenant.

18 MS. SOMERS:

19 Q. When did you leave the JNA?

20 A. On 18 February 1992.

21 Q. Was there some change that motivated your

22 leaving?

23 A. Yes. In May 1991, the JNA was changed. The

24 five-pointed star was replaced by a tricolour flag

25 which was worn both on the shoulder and sleeves.

Page 7353

1 Q. Was there a symbol called the kokarda that

2 was also used on the uniform?

3 A. Yes. The reserve units from Montenegro and

4 those who were facing the front line near Vukovar, they

5 wore that. They were the reserve forces of the former

6 JNA.

7 Q. Is that a uniquely Serb symbol?

8 A. Most probably it is.

9 Q. What did you do after you left the JNA?

10 Where did you go?

11 A. I left the JNA to go to Bosnia, to Vitez. I

12 came back home to the village of Vrhovine, and then I

13 was mobilised to the Vitez municipality TO

14 headquarters. That was on the 6th April, 1992.

15 Q. Did you assume the position of chief of

16 transportation at some point?

17 A. At first I was a regular soldier, and then I

18 was appointed to the military police force escort team

19 of Hakija Cengic, the commander of the TO. And then in

20 July I was appointed chief of transportation of the TO

21 staff in Vitez.

22 Q. Did members of the HVO try to get you to join

23 the HVO?

24 A. A colleague of mine who was in the staff of

25 the TO, named Vlatko Males, called me one day, and we

Page 7354

1 talked, and he invited me to transfer to the HVO, but I

2 refused.

3 Q. And did something happen to you, as a result

4 of that refusal, on the 7th of September in '92?

5 A. On 7 September 1992, I was arrested by four

6 members of the Ludvig Pavlovic unit, and I was

7 questioned by Vlado Santic.

8 Q. Who was Vlado Santic?

9 A. Vlado Santic was commander of a part of the

10 military police of the HVO.

11 Q. Were any other units present at the

12 questioning?

13 A. There were members wearing camouflage

14 uniforms who belonged to the Ludvig Pavlovic unit.

15 Q. And what is the Ludvig Pavlovic unit, if you

16 can tell us?

17 A. I don't know what they are, but I know that

18 this unit came from Herzegovina to the Vitez area, and

19 that it was stationed in Dubravica, in the school

20 building, numbering somewhere between 120, 150 men.

21 Q. How did you identify these people as members

22 of the Ludvig Pavlovic unit?

23 A. They had insignia on the right sleeve. It

24 was a leaf with a sabre and crossed lightning bolts,

25 and it said "Ludvig Pavlovic."

Page 7355

1 MS. SOMERS: I'm going to ask the usher to

2 please present Exhibit Z2562,1.

3 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, on the document in front of

4 you, do you recognise the symbol?

5 A. Yes, I recognise it. That is the insignia

6 which they wore on their left shoulder.

7 Q. That is what you saw on 7 September 1992, in

8 Vitez?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Were you ultimately released after the

11 questioning?

12 A. Yes, I was released. I was taken back to the

13 TO command, and I continued to work at the TO

14 headquarters.

15 Q. You mentioned a gentleman named Hakija

16 Cengic. In May of 1992, what was your relationship to

17 Mr. Cengic?

18 A. In May 1992, I was a personal bodyguard of

19 Hakija Cengic, and we had a close relationship.

20 Q. Looking back to about the 20th of May, '92,

21 did you, in the course of your duties, find out about

22 the death of an individual named Samir Trako, and how

23 did you find out?

24 A. I personally did not learn of Samir Trako,

25 but we received information at the TO headquarters from

Page 7356

1 Samir's relative. The relative's name was Senad Petak,

2 who had been with him, that he was killed in a bowling

3 alley of the Hotel Vitez on the night between the 20th

4 and the 21st of May.

5 Q. Did Mr. Cengic take some action in response

6 to this?

7 A. Mr. Cengic then called a meeting and arranged

8 for a meeting with Mario Cerkez, in the Hotel Vitez, in

9 order to find out the reason for the killing of Samir

10 Trako.

11 Q. Do you know or did you know then why Mario

12 Cerkez was the person with whom he wanted to meet?

13 A. No, I did not know that then. I only

14 received an order from the Commander Cengic, that Anto

15 Frundzija, Major Cengic and I got to the meeting around

16 1.30 a.m. in Hotel Vitez to see what had happened and

17 what was the reason for the young man's killing.

18 Q. Who was Anto Frundzija?

19 A. Anto Frundzija was a commander officer of

20 the military police units at the HVO. He worked with

21 me. He was my school friend. He was actually with the

22 Territorial Defence staff at the time.

23 Q. At that time. Thank you. What time did you

24 arrive at the Hotel Vitez?

25 A. We arrived sometime around 1.30 a.m., to the

Page 7357

1 Hotel Vitez, to the meeting which had been arranged

2 between Mario Cerkez and Hakija Cengic.

3 Q. What time did Mr. Cerkez arrive?

4 A. I don't know when he arrived, but we were

5 brought into the hotel. I don't know the room number.

6 I don't know what conference room was earmarked for

7 conferences. I know that Mario Cerkez arrived with six

8 men, and among them I recognised Niko Krizanac. He was

9 the only one whom I recognised. They were all wearing

10 black uniforms.

11 Then Cerkez, Anto Frundzija, and Hakija

12 Cengic entered that room, and I stayed outside as some

13 kind of security for Commander Cengic, together with

14 these six HOS members.

15 Q. You indicated that they were all wearing

16 black uniforms. Did that include Mario Cerkez?

17 A. Yes. He too was wearing it.

18 Q. Did you notice any distinctive patches or

19 emblems on the uniforms of the six and Mr. Cerkez?

20 A. While I was outside, as the meeting was

21 taking place, these six members had the HOS insignia,

22 and they also had rosary beads on the epaulets. They

23 were rosaries with a cross.

24 Q. Did Mario Cerkez also have a HOS emblem?

25 A. Yes, he also had a HOS emblem.

Page 7358

1 MS. SOMERS: I will ask the usher to please

2 show Exhibit Z2116.

3 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, looking at the piece of paper

4 in front of you, what is depicted on that piece of

5 paper?

6 A. This piece of paper depicts a HOS emblem

7 which was worn at the time, and it also says, "For

8 Homeland Ready," and then it has "HSP," which I guess

9 stands for "Croatian Party of Right."

10 Q. Was this the emblem that you saw on the black

11 uniform worn by Mario Cerkez and the six other people

12 you've identified?

13 A. Yes. That is the emblem which I saw, I saw

14 that night.

15 Q. You indicated that the six other individuals

16 in the black uniforms waited outside but that

17 Mr. Cerkez went inside along with Mr. Cengic. Did you

18 come in proximity, in close proximity, of Mr. Cerkez?

19 JUDGE MAY: I wonder how much this is going

20 to help anybody. He had a drink. Is that the point?

21 MS. SOMERS: I'd ask to make the point, if I

22 could.

23 JUDGE MAY: Well, what is the point?

24 MS. SOMERS: Just that there was the beverage

25 smell. I think the record --

Page 7359

1 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we're much

2 impressed with that. Yes. It was 1.30 in the morning

3 and he'd had a drink. Yes. Let's go on.

4 MS. SOMERS:

5 Q. On the 20th of October, 1992, were you in

6 Visoko?

7 A. Yes. I was in Visoko to visit a unit which

8 was then at the front line against the Serbs at Ilijas

9 and Sarajevo.

10 Q. Returning from Visoko, back to the Vitez

11 municipality, did you go through Ahmici?

12 A. I passed through Ahmici, and in the village

13 of Ahmici I saw that four or five houses were on fire.

14 Q. Were you stopped or were you able to get back

15 to your destination?

16 A. Yes, I did. I don't know for a reason I

17 arrived, but in a van I arrived at the secondary school

18 centre in Vitez, the school where the TO headquarters

19 was.

20 Q. When going through Ahmici, did you notice any

21 soldiers or armed soldiers in the area?

22 A. I noticed two groups of soldiers who were

23 armed. They were on the right and left-hand sides, at

24 the place where formerly there was a checkpoint. I did

25 not look at their insignia. I was going in a civilian

Page 7360

1 vehicle and most probably this was why I was not

2 stopped by them, and so I continued on to Vitez,

3 because the vehicle was not marked as a military one.

4 Q. Then you were able or unable to identify them

5 as HVO?

6 A. I don't know if they were HVO, but I know

7 that there were two groups which were running in the

8 direction of those houses. They were wearing

9 camouflage uniforms.

10 Q. When you got back to headquarters, did you

11 hear any radio transmissions that addressed the

12 situation in Ahmici?

13 A. Mustafa Ahmic, also known as Sudzuka, did

14 call from his house, which was on fire. He called our

15 headquarters in Vitez and he said that he was in

16 danger, he and his family, and he asked for help from

17 us and headquarters.

18 Q. What was the situation like when you returned

19 to Vitez?

20 A. In Vitez there were tensions. There were no

21 civilians in the streets for the most part. There was

22 the presence of the HVO, armed. They had erected the

23 roadblocks around the hotels where there were

24 headquarters and the situation was not very good. It

25 was tense.

Page 7361

1 Q. Were you able to leave your headquarter

2 building or did you have to remain?

3 A. I did not manage to leave the command post

4 house. There was a phone call between Commander Cengic

5 and somebody from the HVO, and supposedly we were

6 supposed to leave the headquarters in the school and go

7 to Stari Vitez.

8 As this was arranged, we went into vans, two

9 small private vehicles, and between the hotel and the

10 cinema theatre in Vitez we were encountered by the HVO

11 with the RPGs. They then made us leave the vehicles

12 and we were arrested. Salih Omerdic was among us. He

13 was later killed in Vitez.

14 Q. What was in your van? What cargo?

15 A. In my van I had grenades; that is, shells

16 which I had brought from Visoko. Mostly they were

17 faulty. I think they were manufactured in Visoko. It

18 was produced for the front at Ilijas in Sarajevo, and

19 there were two M-48 rifles and one binoculars.

20 Q. And the front in Sarajevo would have involved

21 the Serbs; is that correct?

22 A. Yes. This was the front between Ilijas and

23 Ravno Rostovo, which we held as the Territorial

24 Defence. So in order to help the besieged Sarajevo so

25 that the JNA would not move in the direction of Zenica

Page 7362

1 and continue its conquests.

2 Q. Were you arrested that day?

3 A. Yes. I was arrested and questioned by Vlado

4 Santic, and then I was transferred to the civilian

5 police station which was across the street from the

6 Hotel Vitez. I was kept all night there, and then in

7 the morning an exchange took place between the HVO and

8 the Territorial Defence. I did not know the details

9 about the exchange; I just know that I was released the

10 next day, because that night we had spent in the Vitez

11 police station.

12 There were three other men with me. I don't

13 know who they were, but they were Muslims. They

14 probably were in transit out of Jablanica, and they

15 were locked up with me, whereas Muhamed Patkovic and

16 Azim Ahmic and the officers from the headquarters were

17 not taken to the police station but were kept in the

18 hotel where they were questioned.

19 Q. Did you come to find out whether or not any

20 harm had befallen Mr. Patkovic?

21 A. Yes. Later Mr. Patkovic was beaten up in the

22 hotel. I think even his ear was torn. I'm not saying

23 it is. They also made him take off his boots.

24 Q. On the 15th of April of 1993, what happened

25 in Vitez?

Page 7363

1 A. Yes. On 15 April 1993, in Vitez there was a

2 moment of instability. The HVO had already started

3 certain preparations for the siege of the town. They

4 erected roadblocks. On the 15th, in the evening, they

5 had blocked all access roads to the town. Civilian

6 traffic was banned, and they, I think, carried out

7 their preparations for an attack.

8 Q. Was the building in which you were living at

9 that time occupied exclusively by Bosniaks or were

10 there also Croats?

11 A. No. The building where I lived was inhabited

12 by people of all ethnic groups, but I was in an area

13 controlled by the HVO.

14 Q. Did any of your Croat friends tell you to

15 leave Vitez?

16 A. Yes. A school friend of mine came to me and

17 told me that if I didn't leave Vitez in five minutes,

18 that I would stay in Vitez and that it would not be

19 good.

20 However, as I was in a part of town where

21 there was danger -- there were a lot of HVO soldiers

22 there -- and I was one of the only ones who were of the

23 TO staff, I took my wife and went to my

24 father-in-law's, who lived behind the post office.

25 Then he told me that we couldn't go anywhere, that the

Page 7364

1 town has been surrounded. Then the two soldiers came

2 and locked up the entrance of the building, and nobody

3 could leave it.

4 Q. Had your wife also been given some advance

5 warning about danger?

6 A. Yes, she was, because she saw what was going

7 on. As I was passing through town, coming back from

8 work, in the park there were a lot of soldiers amassed

9 there. On my way to the apartment, I saw that the

10 situation was not good. But my wife had taken a stroll

11 beforehand and she couldn't wait for me to come back.

12 She said, the moment I came in, "Let's go over to my

13 parents' because things are not going in the

14 direction."

15 However, at that time there was a celebration

16 going on for the TO, a founding celebration. Even

17 Budimir was present there, Pero Skopljak. They were

18 present at this celebration. I believed that the

19 situation was all right. However, when I came to my

20 in-laws', I realised that the situation was not that

21 good.

22 Q. Budimir and Skopljak are Croat officials; is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes. I don't know what -- I think that

25 Skopljak was the chief of the police station in Vitez,

Page 7365

1 and Budimir was commander of the military police, and

2 Skopljak was the head of the police station. So they

3 had significant duties.

4 Q. On the morning of April 16th, the very early

5 morning, what happened in Vitez?

6 A. There was an explosion. The first explosion

7 was about 5.15 in the morning and then the shooting

8 started. I got up with my wife, and I looked through

9 the window and saw three or four groups, each numbering

10 ten soldiers of the -- HVO soldiers, running towards

11 the police station and the old post office. I realised

12 that the situation was very difficult, that as a member

13 of the TO headquarters I had -- I had nothing, that I

14 had to stay in the apartment. I didn't dare go out,

15 because I knew that everybody knew that I was a member

16 of the TO headquarters.

17 Q. Did you end up in detention at some point

18 that day or, excuse me, a bit later?

19 A. Yes. I spent four days in my father-in-law's

20 apartment, where I hid in the toilet, and I had a

21 school friend who was guarding the building, who

22 protected me. His name is Mirko Males, Vlatko Males's

23 brother.

24 Vlatko Males worked with me in the TO

25 headquarters, and we knew each other from the

Page 7366

1 elementary school. At that time he was a protection of

2 some sort. So whenever they came to search the

3 buildings, to search for Muslims between 12 and 60, to

4 take them to the camp, he always, when they came to my

5 in-laws' door, he would say, "This is fine."

6 But on the 18th of April, a larger patrol

7 arrived in a van, and Ivica Markovic, a refugee from

8 Jajce, was among them, who is a friend of my wife.

9 When he saw me, he said to my wife, "This is not good.

10 Why isn't he where he's supposed to be, at work?"

11 Then she explained how we found ourselves there. Then

12 my wife burst into tears and she asked him to help us.

13 He said, "No problem. Whatever I can, I will help.

14 What I can do is I can take you to the SDK offices, to

15 the camp, because that is where it is the safest."

16 Then everybody from that apartment, my

17 father-in-law's -- and there were a couple of children,

18 pre-teens -- and we were all taken to the SDK building

19 and we were detained there.

20 Q. When you got to the SDK building, did you

21 find other Bosniaks in detention; and if so, what were

22 the age ranges and the gender?

23 A. Yes, there were. I arrived on the 18th and

24 some had been brought there on the 16th and 17th, to

25 that SDK building. There were children 12 and up, and

Page 7367

1 there was Nazif Arnaut, who was 64 years of age. They

2 were all Muslims. There were no Serbs or Romanies or

3 anyone else; only Muslims.

4 The premises of SDK was very tight given how

5 many we were. We did not have enough room to lie

6 down. We had to sit during the night.

7 Q. Were they only males?

8 A. Yes, only males.

9 MS. SOMERS: In one moment, Your Honour, I

10 think would be convenient, as soon I finish this next

11 quick line of questioning, for the break.

12 Q. Who is Zabac?

13 A. I know that Zabac is a military policeman. I

14 don't know his first or last names. I know that he

15 arrived when I was supposed to be taken. Zabac said he

16 needed five men to go dig canals at Rijeka.

17 Then again Ivica Markovic came -- the same

18 group that had brought me to the SDK building -- and

19 they took me and another four men from the camp and

20 took us to Rijeka to dig -- actually, to dig trenches

21 for the -- for combat trenches.

22 Q. Did Ivica Markovic tell you that your name

23 was on a list of the HVO's and that they were looking

24 for you?

25 A. Yes. I was on a list of the Territorial

Page 7368

1 Defence staff, as head of the transportation. Ivica

2 Markovic said that it was on Zabac's orders that he was

3 taking me to Rijeka to dig, and that he could not help

4 me, no more than he was able to, because he was only a

5 civilian policeman, who at that time was with the MUP,

6 and he felt sorry that he couldn't help me any longer.

7 He said that after the digging at Rijeka we would be

8 taken to Kratine; that is, to the Bungalow at Kratine.

9 Q. Just to clarify something, you mentioned that

10 Zabac was a military police. Was that HVO?

11 A. Yes, of course, HVO.

12 Q. Who is Zuti?

13 A. Zuti was an HVO soldier who was taking us

14 from the SDK, pulled us by the shoulder and took us to

15 the van. There was another soldier with him called

16 "Madjar," or "Hungarian." I don't know his name. I

17 also know that Zuti -- he was from Cajdras -- that he

18 looted.

19 After I was exchanged, I moved to Zenica. I

20 started living in Zenica. I heard that Zuti was

21 looting houses, robbing houses in Vitez, but I cannot

22 speak to that because I did not witness it.

23 MS. SOMERS: Your Honours, if this is a

24 convenient moment to break.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, have we heard of the

Page 7369

1 SDK facility before? I don't recollect.

2 MS. SOMERS: I can ask for an explanation of

3 it if you give me a minute. It is listed in the

4 indictment, but I can certainly ask just to have it

5 spelled out.

6 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps we could deal with it

7 after the adjournment.

8 MS. SOMERS: Surely.

9 JUDGE MAY: We are then going to move on, I

10 noticed from the summary, to the Bungalow. Unless

11 there's any dispute about this, perhaps counsel could

12 discuss it over the adjournment, but unless there's any

13 dispute about the conduct of Bralo, which is spoken

14 about here, I would have thought that that could be

15 dealt with fairly shortly. Perhaps you could have a

16 word with Defence counsel and see if it could be dealt

17 with in that way, and then we can move on to

18 cross-examination, but by all means, deal with the

19 SDK.

20 MS. SOMERS: Thank you. There would be just

21 one point or two in the last paragraphs that I'd like

22 to deal then and then -- it should be very quick.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

24 MS. SOMERS: There are some exhibits, I just

25 want to let the court know, that go with those

Page 7370

1 paragraphs, but it should not be long.

2 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Mr. Kavazovic, we're

3 going to adjourn until half past 2.00. Don't speak to

4 anybody, please, about your evidence until it's over.

5 Don't let anybody speak to you about it, and that does

6 include members of the Prosecution. Could you be back

7 at half past 2.00? I hope it will be possible to

8 finish your evidence today.

9 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.03 p.m.

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 7371

1 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Somers.

3 MS. SOMERS:

4 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, turning back to the mention of

5 SDK, what was SDK before you were placed there, and

6 what was it during the time of your placement?

7 A. SDK, before I came to the camp, was the

8 social accounting service of Vitez municipality.

9 Q. And from the time that you were placed in it,

10 was it used for any function that had anything to do

11 with social welfare?

12 A. No. It was not the building of the social

13 accounting service, but it became a camp.

14 Q. Were any Croats in the camp?

15 A. No. Only members of the HVO who guarded us

16 there.

17 Q. You indicated that you were transferred to

18 the Bungalow. Where is the Bungalow?

19 A. The Bungalow is close to Ahmici; that is,

20 next to Nadioci. It was a restaurant close to a

21 swimming area called Rasko Polje.

22 Q. Also in Vitez municipality; yes?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And when you got there, were there members of

25 any special units present?

Page 7372

1 A. In the Bungalow, I found Vlado Santic and the

2 Jokers as a military unit.

3 Q. Do you recall how many, approximately, of the

4 Jokers were there?

5 A. Somewhere between 30 and 40. I don't know

6 the exact number. I couldn't count them.

7 Q. Could you describe their appearance?

8 A. They wore black uniforms. They were painted

9 with black markers on the faces. They had certain

10 ribbons on their shoulders; they were red, blue, and

11 black, I think.

12 Q. Did they have the same patches that you

13 indicated this morning were Joker patches or emblems?

14 A. Yes. Yes, they did.

15 Q. What was the significance of the ribbons you

16 just described, the coloured ribbons?

17 A. You see, I think it was their military

18 deployment of that part of the unit.

19 Q. Meaning a task they had to perform, a type of

20 task?

21 A. Yes. They probably knew what each coloured

22 ribbon meant. The red meant something, the blue

23 something else, and the black something else.

24 Q. Was this a pattern taken over from the JNA?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7373

1 Q. Did you see Anto Furundzija at the Bungalow?

2 A. I did. I saw him for a minute -- half a

3 minute.

4 Q. While you were at the Bungalow, did you

5 overhear any conversations by either the Jokers or HVO,

6 other HVO, about having had sex with women the previous

7 night?

8 A. No, I just saw a woman -- actually, two

9 women, one of whom I knew in person. And at that

10 moment, from the balcony, a soldier told them to go

11 back behind the building, because they were moving

12 forward, in front of the Bungalow, and the soldier

13 said, "Go back." And so I happened to glance at them,

14 and I saw two women. What happened to them in the end,

15 or afterwards, I don't know, because I was taken to

16 Kratine.

17 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, I'm going to ask the usher to

18 show you, and only you at this time, and then the

19 Defence and the Court, a name. I ask you not to read

20 it out loud; just to nod yes or no, or say yes or no,

21 if this name represents one of the women whom you saw

22 there. And I would also ask that it not go in the

23 record; thank you.

24 A. Yes, that was the woman I saw there.

25 Q. Did you at any time --

Page 7374

1 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me; I'll wait.

2 Thank you.

3 Q. Did you at any time later come to hear or

4 learn in any fashion that this particular woman had

5 been the victim of sexual assault at Nadioci, at the

6 Bungalow?

7 A. When I left on the 25th, or rather the 5th of

8 May, when I was exchanged, I settled in Zenica because

9 I couldn't stay in Vitez. I signed to go to Zenica

10 because I thought it was safer there than in Vitez. I

11 went to Zenica to stay with relatives. After about

12 nine or ten days of my stay with relatives, while I was

13 recovering, because of the mistreatment by the HVO, by

14 Cicko and the people I have mentioned, mentally I was

15 not in a good condition. I spent some time in a

16 hospital, and that is when I heard from people who had

17 escaped from Vitez that this woman was abused and

18 raped. But I heard this from other people, so I cannot

19 make any allegations, but I had heard that this woman

20 had been raped.

21 Q. When you saw Anto Furundzija at the Bungalow,

22 what was his reaction? What did he do, if anything?

23 A. He spat at my face, and that was the only

24 contact we had.

25 Q. How long did you stay at the Bungalow?

Page 7375

1 A. I was kept in the Bungalow for no longer than

2 an hour when Vlado Santic issued an order to four men

3 -- I think they were Jokers; they were also wearing

4 white belts, like military policemen -- to drive us to

5 Kratine, to Cicko Bralo's -- Mladen, I think his name

6 was.

7 Q. What is Kratine, and where is it?

8 A. Kratine is above the village of Nadioci. It

9 is an area which was under the responsibility of the

10 HVO, where the HVO held its lines against the BH army.

11 Q. When you arrived at Kratine, whom did you

12 see? Who met you?

13 A. I saw there some other people from Vitez,

14 who, like me, had come from trench-digging at Pirici to

15 Kratine. There was Mirsad Ahmic, Edib Zlotrg. They

16 were already there, digging canals.

17 Q. Did you at any time see the commander of

18 Kratine, Miroslav Bralo, also known as Cicko?

19 A. Yes, I did see him.

20 Q. Describe your encounter.

21 A. My encounter with him was a difficult one.

22 He asked me whether I was head of the traffic

23 department of the balija Territorial Defence. I said I

24 was. Then he lined me up, and the other four who were

25 brought with me, and these others who were already

Page 7376

1 digging there, so that there were ten or eleven of us

2 -- I don't know the exact number -- and he forced us

3 to make the sign of the cross, all of us, ten times,

4 aloud. We had to say "In the name of the Father, the

5 Son, the Holy Ghost, amen." And we did cross

6 ourselves. And then he forced us, with a pickaxe, to

7 try and dig rock, some kind of a fortification for

8 them. And we spent the whole day and night digging

9 there.

10 Q. Were you able actually to dig into the rock

11 successfully? Was it possible?

12 A. It was not possible. I don't eat meat, and I

13 was given fish in the morning, and a quarter of a loaf

14 of bread, and the same food the next day. I'm a

15 vegetarian; all I ate was bread. And then I fainted,

16 and when I fainted, they allowed me to be taken to

17 Busovaca, to the first-aid station, and I was taken

18 there, in Busovaca, where I was extended first aid.

19 Q. Did you also have to dig in a field which was

20 open and exposed to the BH army while it was shooting?

21 A. Yes. We had to dig in an area -- I don't

22 know what name it had -- for them to be able to pass

23 through. We were digging while the army was shooting

24 at us. However, they were shooting for about ten

25 minutes. Then they probably realised we were

Page 7377

1 civilians, and they stopped shooting and then we could

2 continue digging.

3 Q. Did you see any people you could identify as

4 being from the Croatian army, the HV, at this site?

5 A. I saw a young man. I just saw on his belt

6 the letters "HV." It was a green belt with a clasp,

7 with the letters "HV." I don't know who he was. He

8 wore an olive-grey uniform. I didn't see any insignia

9 on him.

10 Q. Mr. Kavasovic, I will ask you quickly -- if

11 the usher is able to put up two aerials -- just to show

12 relationship of locations of the -- Z1630.1 and

13 Z1944.1.

14 If you are able to -- perhaps you might have

15 to get up in order to assist us. If you're able to

16 point out the location of -- it is marked, I believe,

17 in print, but if you could point, for the Court, the

18 location of the Bungalow in Nadioci in relationship to

19 Ahmici and in relationship to where you had been taken

20 from originally in Vitez, if that's visible from here.

21 That would be helpful.

22 A. I can see where I was taken to the Bungalow,

23 which is between Ahmici and Nadioci. It is this area

24 here [indicates]. This is the village of Nadioci, and

25 these are Kratine -- this is Kratine [indicates]. I

Page 7378

1 was taken along this road to Kratine [indicates].

2 Q. Are you able to show any -- I don't know if

3 it's visible from here, but the point from which you

4 were taken originally from the town of Vitez. If it's

5 not on this map, we'll go to another map.

6 A. It's not on this map.

7 Q. I'll put up another map. Is it possible for

8 you to highlight or circle Kratine on that map to show

9 it, please?

10 A. I can. I can see the road and the area where

11 I had to dig [marks]. What I have circled is the area

12 of Kratine where I was taken from the Bungalow.

13 Q. Are you able to show any -- is there a road

14 by which you can show where you went to next from

15 Kratine; Bungalow to Kratine, or how your route was?

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. How were you transported? How did you get

18 there?

19 A. In a van, a van which was driven by Madzar, a

20 van of the military police.

21 Q. Were there other persons also in these vans,

22 or were you alone?

23 A. Yes. With me there was Mirsad Ahmic, Jasmin

24 Cengalovic, and another two whose names I don't know.

25 There were five of us. I was the fifth.

Page 7379

1 Q. Were they all Bosniak Muslim males?

2 A. Yes. Yes, they were all Muslims, Bosniaks.

3 Q. Mr. Kavasovic, if this map is a little bit

4 clearer, and if the usher could assist -- sorry,

5 there's a second one. This is Z1644.1.

6 Does this map enable you to show any more of

7 the locations to which you were taken? And also, are

8 you able to show the relationship of these areas to

9 Busovaca and to where Kaonik ultimately is?

10 A. I can see the Bungalow on this map and a part

11 of Kratine, a small part. Anyway, I was taken from

12 Vitez to the Bungalow [marks]. What I have started

13 marking is the road leading to Kratine. Those were the

14 places where I was taken.

15 Q. Thank you very much. You can sit down. The

16 next day after you arrived back at Kratine, were people

17 from Loncari at that location?

18 A. When I was at Kratine -- I think this was the

19 third or fourth day that I was there -- I heard from a

20 school friend -- whose name I'd rather not mention

21 because he is my school friend and he helped me a lot

22 while I was in detention; he even gave me cigarettes to

23 smoke -- he said that fleeing from Loncari, three young

24 men had been caught, and all he knew was that one of

25 them was called Fudo, known as the "footballer," and

Page 7380

1 that is what I heard from this friend of mine and that

2 is all that I know.

3 Q. Did you see Bralo do anything harmful to any

4 of these persons from Loncari?

5 A. Yes. Bralo, Cicko, hit one of these. He had

6 a glove with iron spikes on the knuckles. I don't know

7 how to explain this to you. But in any event, he hit

8 one of these men when he didn't know how to cross

9 himself, and he split open his eyebrow.

10 Q. You were moved on to another location, is

11 that correct, and you were ordered by Furundzija to

12 place mines?

13 A. Yes. I was forced, because they knew I was

14 an officer and that I knew how to lay mines. I don't

15 know whether they had interrogated me or what, but in

16 any event, I was given mines with combat fuses and

17 practice ammunition, and I was taken towards the

18 lines.

19 These were mines which were very dangerous,

20 from the former JNA. They were a special tripwire,

21 mines and others with great destructive power, which it

22 is very difficult to plant and de-mine. I don't know

23 whether they had experts among their ranks, but I gave

24 them back. There were some fuses which were

25 training -- used for training purposes, so I thought

Page 7381

1 they were checking me out.

2 Then I was given combat fuses, and I lay

3 those mines, and after that I was taken back.

4 Q. Were you forced to carry wooden boards in a

5 very dangerous area; and if so, what was dangerous

6 about the area?

7 A. We were making dugouts for HVO soldiers, and

8 this was dangerous because they were in an area covered

9 by sniper fire, and any fire could hit us because it

10 was a clearing. We had to carry these

11 five-centimetre-thick wooden boards. They were heavy.

12 We were using them to cover up these dugouts.

13 Q. Mr. Kavasovic, you indicated you had taken

14 ill; you'd become sick and fainted, and you were taken

15 to Busovaca for medical treatment. You were then taken

16 to another detention facility. What was that one?

17 A. Yes. After all this heavy labour, because I

18 didn't eat any meat, I only ate bread, and I got cramps

19 in my muscles and I fainted, and Bralo Mladen ordered

20 that I be transferred to Busovaca. I was given

21 first-aid medical treatment in the medical station in

22 Busovaca, and I was given an intravenous infusion.

23 When I came to, I saw some soldiers with crew

24 cuts, in HVO uniforms. A nurse asked me how I was. I

25 said I was okay. "Can you stand up?" I got up. I

Page 7382

1 spoke to them briefly. They asked me what was wrong

2 with me, why my hands were bandaged, because my palms

3 were bleeding, and I told them.

4 Then this nurse was ever so kind to me. She

5 even gave me some pills in case I felt nausea again --

6 I think they were multi-vitamins -- for me to recover.

7 Then these two policemen called for a car. Madzar came

8 to pick me up again, and he drove me to the Drago

9 barracks, which used to be a warehouse, an ammunition

10 depot of the Territorial Defence.

11 Q. Is that referred to oftentimes as Kaonik?

12 A. Close to Kaonik, but it's a place near

13 Busovaca; between Busovaca and Kaonik.

14 Q. These barracks are now a -- were a detention

15 centre at the time. How many buildings were there in

16 total, if you can remember?

17 A. As far as I could see, the second day when I

18 went outside to carry some sandbags, I counted five

19 buildings. In the middle one where I was, and two in

20 front of me, these were prisoner-of-war camps; and the

21 two behind, I saw some civilians loading ammunition

22 boxes. Where they went and why they loaded them, I

23 don't know. I just saw this for a second, and I was

24 told to go on carrying the sandbags so as not to watch

25 what was happening there.

Page 7383

1 Q. Then are you able to say whether or not there

2 were munitions depots or warehouses also in the

3 buildings at Kaonik or at this camp?

4 A. Kaonik were warehouses of the Territorial

5 Defence under the former JNA, and most of the munitions

6 that were left there were taken possession of by the

7 HVO, and they controlled it most probably.

8 Q. Were two of the five buildings that you

9 discussed used as warehouses for munitions?

10 A. Yes. These two behind, where the munitions

11 were being loaded.

12 Q. Do you know whether or not the army of

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina was aware of the existence of

14 munitions, and how would they have found this out?

15 A. I can only assume now they probably knew

16 about the munitions there, because people who came out

17 of prison, who were released and who were exchanged,

18 immediately reported that there was a large number of

19 civilians there.

20 Q. Are you able to tell the Court whether or not

21 the artillery of the army of BiH was within range to

22 have reached those --

23 JUDGE MAY: I wonder if the witness can

24 really tell us about this. He wasn't an artillery

25 expert.

Page 7384

1 MS. SOMERS: May I show the witness, please,

2 an exhibit, 1880.1, Z1880.1.

3 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, you're able to get up again

4 with the pointer and show the Court the area where the

5 five buildings, in one of which you were detained, is

6 on that map, in the Kaonik area.

7 A. The place where I was held as a prisoner is

8 this one here [indicates].

9 Q. And how many buildings, roughly, do you see

10 there?

11 A. Five -- seven, I think.

12 Q. Are the five buildings to which you earlier

13 made reference visible from there; and if so, can you

14 show which were the ones where detainees were lodged

15 and which were used for munitions?

16 A. I see the building that I was held in and the

17 two buildings in front of me, which were used as a

18 camp. This is the building where I was [indicates],

19 and these two were for the prisoners [indicates], and

20 these were depots [indicates]. So the buildings I'm

21 going to show now were warehouses of materiel and

22 ammunition [indicates], whereas these two in front

23 [indicates] were used as a camp.

24 Q. Are you able to show, if you know, from where

25 the BiH would have been looking onto Kaonik, from what

Page 7385

1 position?

2 JUDGE MAY: Well, come on. The witness was a

3 prisoner at the time.

4 MS. SOMERS: Right. I understand.

5 JUDGE MAY: He wasn't part of the attacking

6 army. I just wonder if it's very fair. I don't think

7 we're assisted.

8 MS. SOMERS: All right.

9 Q. While you were in Kaonik, are you aware of

10 any attacks by the BiH on the facility despite the

11 presence of munitions of the HVO?

12 A. I don't know. I wasn't aware of that.

13 Q. Thank you. I'd like to ask you -- you may

14 sit down, please.

15 MS. SOMERS: Two more quick exhibits, and I'd

16 ask the usher to show, please, what is a composite,

17 it's been made a composite, but I'm principally

18 interested in the top page, which is Z1874.

19 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, would you be able to explain

20 to the Court what the darkened lines of this area

21 represent, and in general, what is depicted here that

22 is relative to your life?

23 JUDGE MAY: Is there any objection to this

24 evidence being put in?

25 MR. SAYERS: No, Your Honour.

Page 7386

1 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

2 MS. SOMERS: Okay. It is ...

3 A. What I can say here is that the black lines

4 which are marked is the part of the territory under the

5 control of the Croatian Defence Council while I was

6 imprisoned, and that is where I moved, from Vitez to

7 Kratine to Rijeka.

8 Q. And does it track your movement, then, this

9 line?

10 A. Yes. The locations marked are the locations

11 where I was digging, where I dug. This is the area at

12 the front lines where I dug under difficult conditions.

13 Q. Skipping the next page that's stapled below

14 it, if you go to the page below that -- which would be

15 the second from the bottom, a diagram drawn by yourself

16 -- and the one below that, could you please explain

17 what these represent?

18 A. This paper details ten rooms that -- there is

19 a room where I was placed. It was number 5. And

20 another man was placed there with me; I think his name

21 was Salih. I only know that he was from Loncari.

22 Q. I wanted to ask you to go to the two exhibits

23 below, the two pages below this one; not this page, but

24 the ones under it.

25 Those two, yes.

Page 7387

1 A. In this map, I drew the official layout of

2 the buildings where I was staying, and among them is

3 the building where I was staying. This is the first

4 map.

5 Q. Are you able to show which are the munitions

6 buildings from this map, by number?

7 A. The buildings marked 1 and 2 were storage

8 buildings, and 3 and 4 were the camp.

9 Q. And 5 as well?

10 5 as well?

11 A. Yes, 3, 4, and 5.

12 Q. And is there anything different that you need

13 to tell the Court about the next document below it,

14 that was also drawn by you?

15 A. The only difference here is the spatial

16 relations. It's the same structures, but just a

17 different sketch of them.

18 Q. When were you ultimately released from all

19 detention and found your way back to safe territory?

20 A. I was brought back from Busovaca, Kaonik.

21 After two days, then I was brought back to the SDK

22 building, where I was again kept for two days. And

23 then on 5th May 1993, I was released under the auspices

24 of the Red Cross, which was then -- had presence in the

25 Vitez area, and then I went to Zenica.

Page 7388

1 MS. SOMERS: Would the usher please show the

2 witness Exhibit Z1398.

3 Q. Is this indeed the Red Cross certificate that

4 verifies your place of detention and your date of

5 release?

6 A. Yes, it is. This is a certificate issued by

7 the Red Cross, which at that time was operating, but

8 the date is not correct, on the 26th April. On the

9 26th April, I was at Kratine, but my father-in-law was

10 staying at the SDK, and he reported that I had been

11 taken to dig. Had he not reported me, I never would

12 have been put on this list. So when they came to the

13 SDK, I was on the list, and so on 5 May 1993, I was

14 released.

15 MS. SOMERS: No further questions.

16 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

17 Who is going to cross-examine?

18 MR. SAYERS: With the Court's permission,

19 I'll take the lead here. The witness was switched on

20 us; we thought there was going to be Major Baggesen.

21 And I am prepared to cross-examine Mr. Kavazovic; I

22 understand that Mr. Kovacic needs a little bit more

23 time. But I'm more than happy to start, Your Honour.

24 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers:

25 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, good afternoon. My name is

Page 7389

1 Steve Sayers, and I represent Dario Kordic, along with

2 my colleagues to the right here.

3 What is your current rank in the Federation

4 of Bosnia and Herzegovina army, sir?

5 A. My current rank in the Federation of Bosnia

6 and Herzegovina army is lieutenant.

7 Q. All right, Lieutenant. Let me go over the

8 statements and testimonies that you have given to

9 date. As I understand it, you have actually testified

10 in the Blaskic case for two days, on August the 26th

11 and 27th, 1997; correct?

12 A. Most probably that is correct. I cannot

13 recall now when I testified, because I have given

14 several testimonies or statements.

15 Q. You testified in the Aleksovski case on

16 January the 9th, 1998, sir, I believe.

17 A. That is true.

18 Q. And a few months later, on June the 9th of

19 1998, you testified in the Furundzija case; correct?

20 A. Yes, Anto Furundzija.

21 Q. And in October of last year, on October the

22 12th, you testified in the Kupreskic case; correct?

23 A. Yes, the Kupreskic case, but regarding Vlado

24 Santic.

25 Q. Now, the first statement that you gave to the

Page 7390

1 authorities of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina was

2 two days after your release, on May the 7th, 1993;

3 correct?

4 A. I don't know whether it was on the 7th or

5 8th, but it is correct that I did give a statement.

6 Q. And that statement was given to Ramiz

7 Dugalic, chief of staff of the 3rd Corps in Zenica;

8 correct?

9 A. No, I did not give a statement to him, but we

10 just had a general conversation. I did not give a

11 formal statement. He requested to talk to me, and I

12 talked to Ramiz Dugalic. I don't know what his

13 position was in the corps, but I know that it was a

14 high-ranking one.

15 Q. All right. And correct me if I'm wrong, but

16 I think you've given three separate statements to the

17 Prosecution's investigators: one on September the 2nd,

18 1995; one on January the 26th, 1997; and then, most

19 recently, just a few months ago, on May the 26th, 1999;

20 is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that was correct. In Zenica, I

22 believe.

23 Q. You have given some testimony about a refusal

24 to join the HVO. You were actually given an invitation

25 to do precisely that, were you not, sir, for much more

Page 7391

1 pay than you were making in your position with the

2 Territorial Defence, the TO?

3 A. It was a great difference. We were receiving

4 it in BH dinars, and the HVO in marks.

5 Q. All right. But the point I'm making is that

6 you were offered a position with the HVO at a salary

7 significantly higher than what you were receiving in

8 your position as a soldier with the TO; correct?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. So we can agree, can we not, that there was

11 no prohibition on Muslims joining the HVO; after all,

12 you had been invited to join?

13 A. Let me tell you, we will not agree on this,

14 because the TO staff consisted of members who were

15 Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs, and Romanis, whereas the HVO

16 consisted only of Croats.

17 I can state one thing here: that as a member

18 who was a Bosniak Muslim, I would not have had any

19 place among my own people had I joined the HVO.

20 Q. And despite being offered the job, you turned

21 it down; correct?

22 A. Yes, I turned it down, because Anto Nuk,

23 Vlatko Males, and Stipo Zigonja were with me at the --

24 with the TO staff, at the TO headquarters at the time.

25 Q. Now, sir, you have previously given some

Page 7392

1 testimony about your duties with the transportation

2 unit of the TO once you had made the decision to join

3 the TO. Actually, you later occupied a position in the

4 military police, didn't you?

5 A. I was first in the military police, and then

6 I got the post with the office for transportation.

7 Q. Well, in May of 1992, you were a member of

8 the military police within the TO; correct?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. And one of your subordinates was

11 Mr. Furundzija, about whom you have given evidence;

12 isn't that correct?

13 A. Yes. He was a platoon commander of the

14 military police with the municipal TO.

15 Q. Now, you gave evidence that you were arrested

16 by the HVO on three separate occasions, the first being

17 on September the 7th, 1992, or thereabouts; correct?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. You were arrested actually in front of the

20 Hotel Vitez while you were in TO uniform; isn't that

21 true?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Didn't you testify in Blaskic and in

24 Aleksovski, though, that you were not wearing a

25 uniform?

Page 7393

1 A. I was arrested for the first time on the 7th,

2 as you mentioned. At that time I was not in a

3 uniform. But the second time, when I was captured

4 between the cinema and the hotel on the 21st of

5 October, then I was in the uniform.

6 Q. Well, let me read to you what you said to the

7 Prosecutors in January of 1997. You describe your

8 arrest on September the 7th, 1992, and you said, on

9 page 3:

10 "I was uniformed when I was arrested."

11 Were you or weren't you, sir?

12 A. On the 7th, when there was a conflict, I was

13 arrested in a uniform when I had to leave the TO

14 headquarters. In fact, that was on the 21st of

15 October, 1992.

16 Q. All right. Now, you said that you were

17 questioned by some members of the Ludvig Pavlovic

18 Brigade on that occasion; is that correct?

19 A. Yes. I was questioned along with Vlado

20 Santic.

21 Q. Was Mr. Santic a member of the Ludvig

22 Pavlovic Brigade or not, or do you simply not know?

23 A. No, he was not a member of the Ludvig

24 Pavlovic Brigade, because Ludvig Pavlovic unit members

25 were wearing drab green uniforms, whereas he wore a

Page 7394

1 black uniform, and I don't believe that he was a member

2 of this unit.

3 Q. All right. He questioned you for half an

4 hour, and you weren't mistreated in any way, were you,

5 sir?

6 A. No. Just the two of them took my cigarette

7 case. There were two members of the Ludvig Pavlovic

8 Brigade took a cigarette case with some cigarettes, and

9 Vlado Santic questioned me about some military affairs

10 or some things which were in the TO headquarters.

11 Q. All right. And ultimately, your headquarters

12 arranged with the HVO headquarters for you to be

13 exchanged for an HVO prisoner; is that right?

14 A. I don't know what the agreement was. I only

15 know that I was exchanged. At least, I was going to --

16 that is what I was told, but I don't know who I was

17 exchanged for. I was not in a position to know.

18 Q. All right. Let's turn to the incident in

19 October 1992, about which you gave some evidence.

20 As I understand it, sir, you had been to the

21 town of Visoko, leading an ABiH convoy in the early

22 morning hours of October the 20th, 1992. Is that about

23 right?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. After delivering your shipment, you then

Page 7395

1 headed back to Vitez, to your TO headquarters, along

2 the main road; correct?

3 A. Yes, but this was not a shipment; this was --

4 these were members of the TO which were going to

5 provide some assistance there and go to the front lines

6 against the JNA troops.

7 Q. All right. You did -- as you've previously

8 testified, you arrived back at your headquarters at the

9 TO in the high school, the Boris Kidric high school, in

10 Dubravica; is that correct?

11 A. Not in Dubravica; rather, in Vitez, in the

12 secondary school centre. I don't know what was the

13 school in Dubravica called. This was how I went back

14 to Vitez, to the Boris Kidric centre, that secondary

15 school centre where the command post was, where the

16 headquarters were.

17 Q. All right. Now, it's true, isn't it, that

18 when you arrived back in your headquarters, it was

19 surrounded by HVO troops, approximately 70 of them?

20 A. Yes. But I don't know about the exact

21 number, whether there was exactly 70, but around that

22 figure.

23 Q. In your headquarters, I believe, there were

24 about 37 TO staff at that location; correct?

25 A. Thirty-six or thirty-seven, as far as I

Page 7396

1 know.

2 Q. Basically, what happened was there was a

3 stand-off for about four days and no exchange of fire

4 between the TO and the HVO forces while negotiations

5 occurred, that resulted in relocation of the TO

6 headquarters from where you were to Stari Vitez;

7 correct?

8 A. That is correct, but you said that there was

9 no shooting on the part of the HVO, but several

10 grenades called Zolja were lobbed into the secondary

11 school centre and then an ultimatum followed for us to

12 leave the centre.

13 Q. All right, sir. Let me just read from your

14 statement four years ago, given to the Prosecution:

15 "We stayed in our HQ for three days, during

16 which time there was no exchange of shooting."

17 That's true, isn't it?

18 A. Yes, that is true. I said that there was no

19 exchange of fire. We didn't shoot, we could not, but

20 two Zolja grenades were shot at the centre. We were

21 very few. We did not shoot, and our Major, Hakija

22 Cengic, forbid any kind of resistance before the talks

23 with somebody from the HVO had taken place.

24 Q. All right. Now, the HVO permitted the TO

25 commander, Sefkija Dzidic, and his deputy, Ramiz

Page 7397

1 Dugalic, to relocate their headquarters to Stari Vitez;

2 isn't that correct?

3 A. He most probably did. They transferred to

4 Stari Vitez and we -- that is, I stayed in the

5 secondary school centre with the rest of them.

6 Q. You were subsequently permitted, though, to

7 load up trucks and drive them back and forth between

8 the old headquarters location and the new headquarters

9 in Stari Vitez; correct?

10 A. Yes. They gave us a period of time within

11 which we had to vacate the centre and pick up all the

12 things that we needed and move to the old part of

13 town.

14 Q. They also indicated, Lieutenant, did they

15 not, the route that you should take to ensure safe

16 passage?

17 A. I wasn't told anything by anyone, by the

18 HVO. I was ordered by Sefkija Dzidic to go from the

19 secondary school centre to the hotel, from the hotel to

20 the marketplace, then from the market to Old Vitez.

21 Q. Let me just read you from the statement that

22 you gave four years ago, sir:

23 "On the fourth day, the HVO allowed us to

24 load some trucks with materials from our HQ and take

25 them to Stari Vitez. I drove the van filled with

Page 7398

1 grenades through the town, instead of the road which

2 the HVO told me to take, because I was afraid the HVO

3 would shoot at the van."

4 That's true as well, is it not?

5 A. Yes, that is correct, but I got the route

6 through the -- past the stadium into Old Vitez, and it

7 was impossible to pass there. So I received an order

8 from my superior to go through the downtown area,

9 because the agreement was to go -- the agreement had

10 been for us to go through the town rather than around

11 via the stadium.

12 Q. Let me see if I understand the situation.

13 You were driving a civilian truck that was unknown to

14 the HVO, filled with grenades; is that correct?

15 A. Not a truck; a van, because -- I mean, I did

16 not know what vehicles we had, and I did not know what

17 vehicles the HVO had.

18 Q. All right, sir. It was a civilian van, but

19 it was filled with grenades, and you hadn't told the

20 HVO about that, had you?

21 A. I was not in a position to say anything,

22 because I did not take part in negotiations. I was

23 just carrying out my commander's orders, if you

24 understand me. I was not involved in negotiations or

25 talks.

Page 7399

1 Q. All right. There were also two sniper's

2 rifles in that truck along with all of the grenades;

3 isn't that right?

4 A. Yes, and a pair of military binoculars, from

5 what I remember.

6 Q. And also two other items, sir. There was

7 your personal machine gun; correct?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. As well as the automatic pistol that you were

10 wearing as a sidearm; is that correct?

11 A. Yes. I was -- I carried my personal pistol

12 which was officially issued to me from JNA.

13 Q. And as I understand it, you were apprehended

14 and questioned again by the HVO, and on this second

15 occasion it is also true that you were not mistreated;

16 isn't that correct?

17 A. I was not mistreated; I was just arrested and

18 interrogated, but I was arrested by the HVO with ten

19 RPG grenades and Zoljas, and about 15 soldiers were

20 there.

21 Q. All right. The gentleman that you gave

22 testimony about, Mr. Muhamed Patkovic, he became a

23 Mujahedin fighter, did he not?

24 A. I don't know whether he became later a

25 Mujahedin fighter, but I know that that man was beaten

Page 7400

1 up in the Vitez Hotel and that they even took his boots

2 off, and that they split his ear, they beat him so

3 badly that day when they captured him.

4 Q. You did tell the Prosecutors four years ago

5 that Mr. Patkovic was, in fact, with the Mujahedin, did

6 you not?

7 A. I said that? I don't remember saying that.

8 I really do not remember saying that. It may be an

9 error in the translation, but I know that while he was

10 in the TO he was not a Mujahedin, because he couldn't

11 have been. He may have later on.

12 Q. I don't think we need to belabour that point,

13 so I'll move on. The soldiers who questioned you, sir,

14 had told you that the HVO had actually been attacked by

15 the TO at Ahmici, did they not?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, just before April the 15th, were you

18 aware that four HVO soldiers had been kidnapped by

19 Mujahedin just outside of Novi Travnik?

20 A. No, I didn't know about that.

21 Q. Were you aware that an assassination attempt

22 had been made upon Darko Kraljevic on April the 12th,

23 1993, in the woods outside Rijeka?

24 A. No, I don't know that.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Kraljevic, to your knowledge,

Page 7401

1 commanded a detachment known as the Vitezovi; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And those troops only took orders from him,

5 their commander, and nobody else; isn't that true?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. Well, you were asked that question, sir, in

8 the Blaskic case, by one of the Judges, and I believe

9 that you said, on page 2446, that Darko Kraljevic could

10 do what he liked. On page 2425, you said these

11 Vitezovi "only took orders from their commander and

12 nobody else." And then one page later you said

13 that "it was an exclusive unit, a private army. They

14 took their orders only from their commander and nobody

15 else," and the reference to "commander" was a reference

16 to Darko Kraljevic. Do you remember that?

17 A. I remember all of that. However, as regards

18 those orders, I think that every commander issues

19 strict orders to his soldiers, and whether he

20 personally gave such orders, I don't know; I was not in

21 his presence. I was a member of the Territorial

22 Defence. I was not a member of the HVO, the Vitezovi,

23 or the Jokers, or any such thing.

24 Q. Very well. Did you know that the TO had a

25 battalion headquarters at the villages of Poculica and

Page 7402

1 Preocica, to the north-east of Vitez? Did you know

2 that?

3 A. I apologise; could you repeat the question,

4 please? I didn't quite hear it.

5 Q. Certainly. It's true, is it not, that the TO

6 had battalion headquarters at the villages of Poculica

7 and Preocica, to the north-east of Vitez, immediately

8 before the fighting on April the 16th?

9 A. Let me tell you, I don't know whether the

10 command was there. I was in the TO headquarters. I

11 was not in the battalions. There's a difference

12 between the staff of the Territorial Defence. I

13 couldn't have that information.

14 Q. All right. Did you know that the battalion

15 headquarters of the 325th Mountain Brigade was located

16 in Kruscica?

17 A. I knew that when the restructuring of the TO

18 was carried out, when it was transformed into a

19 brigade.

20 Q. And when was that? That was before April the

21 15th, 1993, was it not?

22 A. No. It was after that.

23 Q. All right. You gave some testimony in

24 connection with a building known as the Bungalow, and

25 you stated that you had seen a lady that you recognised

Page 7403

1 at that location. Let me just read you a statement

2 that you gave to the Prosecution's investigators four

3 years ago. This is on page 6:

4 "While I was there, I did not hear or see

5 any women at the Bungalow."

6 A. I don't know. There seems to be quite a bit

7 of misunderstanding. I have already testified. I made

8 those statements in order, but I said in my first

9 statement that I saw two women, one of whom I

10 recognised, the other one I did not. The soldier on

11 the balcony ordered those women to go back behind the

12 balcony. I saw that and I still stick to that

13 statement.

14 MR. SAYERS: With the Court's permission --

15 I'm actually relatively close to being finished -- I'd

16 just like to show the witness the statement he gave to

17 the Prosecutors four years ago, with the usher's

18 assistance. Thank you.

19 Q. For your easy reference, sir, I've

20 highlighted it on page 5 of the Croatian version.

21 Thank you.

22 Could you just read into the record, sir, the

23 passage that I have highlighted?

24 A. "I didn't hear or see any women in the

25 Bungalow."

Page 7404

1 That is what it says here, explicitly.

2 Q. Thank you. Now, the people that you saw

3 wearing black uniforms at the Bungalow did not have any

4 insignia on their uniforms, did they, sir?

5 A. Some did, some did not. I couldn't notice

6 everything, but I know that I saw Jokers, then I saw

7 some police members. There were three different

8 military units at the Bungalow.

9 Q. Well, you saw Mr. Vlado Santic at the

10 Bungalow; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And he was wearing a black uniform, was he

13 not?

14 A. He was wearing a black uniform, yes, with a

15 white belt.

16 Q. But he was not wearing any insignia, just

17 like the rest of the people you've identified as

18 Jokers; isn't that correct?

19 A. He did not wear any insignia on him.

20 Q. And the Jokers did not wear insignia either,

21 did they, sir?

22 A. The Jokers did wear the insignia of the

23 Jokers. Anto Furundzija wore the Jokers patch.

24 Q. Let me just read you some testimony that you

25 gave on August the 26th, 1997, sir, under oath in the

Page 7405

1 Blaskic case, page 2326.

2 " Q: How was Mr. Vlado Santic dressed when

3 you saw him?

4 A: He was wearing a black uniform without

5 any insignia, like the rest of the

6 Jokeri."

7 That's true, isn't it?

8 A. The question for Vlado was correct, because I

9 didn't see an insignia on him. But when it says "like

10 the other Jokers," that, I'm not sure of. But I know

11 that Vlado did not wear an insignia, because he spoke

12 to me for a minute or half a minute.

13 Q. All right. Now, you've identified quite a

14 few commanders of this unit, the first one being

15 Mr. Vlado Santic; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You've identified several others, but another

18 individual who you've previously identified as a

19 commander was named Ivica Vujica; isn't that correct?

20 A. Ivica Vujica was a commander of the Jokers

21 who took me to dig trenches at Kratine.

22 Q. But you have previously testified that this

23 man always treated you very correctly; isn't that

24 correct?

25 A. Not Ivica Vujica, but Ivica Markovic, a

Page 7406

1 civilian policeman, a refugee from Jajce. As for Ivica

2 Vujica, he was a leader of a Jokers platoon. There is

3 a difference between a civilian policeman and a

4 military policeman.

5 Q. All right. You really have no detailed

6 personal knowledge of the function or purpose or

7 complement of the Jokers unit, do you, sir?

8 A. I do not have any detailed information about

9 their purpose, but I know they were promoted in Vitez

10 as a unit for special purposes.

11 Q. But the point I'm making to you, sir, is that

12 you really just don't know very much about the unit at

13 all, do you, personally, from your own personal

14 knowledge?

15 A. It can't be said that I don't know much. I

16 know from the moment they were founded until I met them

17 at Kratine and in the Bungalow.

18 Q. Well, you were asked, "Could you please be

19 more detailed about the Joker unit," in the Aleksovski

20 case a few years ago, page 398, and you said, quote:

21 "I personally don't know much about it." Isn't that

22 right?

23 A. I'm saying again that I personally don't know

24 much about them, but I know how they asserted

25 themselves in Vitez and how they introduced themselves

Page 7407

1 in Vitez.

2 Q. All right. Two final topics, if I may. The

3 ribbons that you previously described, the ribbons

4 bearing different colours: Did I understand you to say

5 that those ribbons identified the particular task that

6 the military unit was carrying out, and that that was

7 actually a tradition established in the JNA, standard

8 practice in the former JNA?

9 A. Let me tell you, that was my assumption. I

10 didn't say that the red ribbon meant the first front

11 line; the second, the second front line; and so on. As

12 far as I know from the former JNA, the blue ribbon was

13 always the defence and the red the aggressor. So the

14 first position was marked with a red ribbon, the

15 reserve position with a blue ribbon. I know the system

16 from the former JNA. I didn't say now that the same

17 applied to the HVO. These are just my assumptions. I

18 said that this shouldn't go down in the record. Why it

19 did, I don't know.

20 Q. You said that when you were present at the

21 Bungalow, you saw people wearing white, orange, or blue

22 ribbons tied around their arms; correct?

23 A. Yes, across their shoulders, on the

24 epaulettes. And some wore them also on their muscles,

25 up here.

Page 7408

1 Q. And you also said -- and I don't think there

2 is any dispute about this, so let's try to agree upon

3 it -- that the use of ribbons was copied by the HVO

4 from the JNA; isn't that correct?

5 A. Probably, yes. I cannot claim that, but I

6 know that from my military training in the JNA.

7 Q. All right. And after you were released on

8 May the 5th, I understand that you rejoined the army

9 about two weeks later, on May the 22nd, 1993; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, I underwent psychiatric examination in

12 hospital, because I had these cramps, for ten or

13 fifteen days. And after that I was mobilised again.

14 Q. All right. Just a couple of final

15 questions. You have never met or spoken to Colonel

16 Blaskic in your life, have you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. And I take it the same goes for the accused

19 in this case, Mr. Kordic?

20 A. I don't even know Kordic in person. I never

21 even saw him.

22 MR. SAYERS: Thank you very much indeed, Your

23 Honour. No further questions.

24 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

25 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, as my

Page 7409

1 colleague, Mr. Sayers, has already said, we had

2 prepared for Witness Baggesen, as we were told

3 yesterday. But a change occurred today, but we have

4 somehow managed to prepare for the cross-examination,

5 in order not to waste Your Honours' time, so with your

6 permission, I would like to begin.

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kavazovic. My name is

9 Mikulicic, and together with my colleague, Kovacic, I

10 represent the Defence of Mario Cerkez.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. Would you be kind enough to answer my

13 questions to the best of your recollection, and if any

14 of my questions is not clear, please tell me.

15 Mr. Kavazovic, you said that you were born in

16 the village of Vrhovine, Vitez municipality?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Were you the only child?

19 A. No, I have five brothers and a sister.

20 Q. So there were six children in all?

21 A. Yes, but one died.

22 Q. Was your family well off?

23 A. We were a working-class family.

24 Q. And you completed your elementary school

25 where?

Page 7410

1 A. In Vitez, in Dubravica.

2 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, this must be tiring for you.

3 Please let me know if you don't feel well, and then we

4 can do something about it. Can you continue with this

5 cross-examination?

6 A. No, no, I'm okay, though I have a big ulcer,

7 so it's causing me some discomfort.

8 Q. After an eight-year elementary school, you

9 went to Belgrade to attend secondary military school?

10 A. Yes, I had an uncle there, working in the

11 Public Security Station, at the Danube station,

12 district 29, married to a Serb.

13 Q. I see. So you left home, so you must have

14 been quite a financial burden for your parents as you

15 went away?

16 A. I wasn't for my parents, but I was for my

17 uncle. My uncle financed me and covered the costs of

18 education. He didn't have any children, and he was an

19 inspector in the police.

20 Q. Let us not waste time. Did you receive any

21 kind of scholarship from the JNA?

22 A. Yes, we received regular support to cover

23 essential needs.

24 Q. And after completing schooling, you became a

25 professional officer in the JNA, and you received a

Page 7411

1 salary?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You also had some other privileges given to

4 JNA officers, such as free transportation?

5 A. Yes, in some areas, some allowances. When we

6 went on mission, you could spend your holidays in

7 military holiday homes. But that was for higher-level

8 officers.

9 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, while you were in the JNA

10 in '91 and the beginning of '92, what was your exact

11 position?

12 A. I was a traffic dispatcher.

13 Q. And where were you located?

14 A. At Vozdovac.

15 Q. In Belgrade?

16 A. Yes, in Belgrade, district of Belgrade.

17 Q. You told us that on the 18th of February,

18 1992, you left the JNA?

19 A. Yes, with the help -- with a colleague of

20 mine, a Serb, Branislav Jeknic, who was working with me

21 and who transferred me to Kuzmin and Bijeljina.

22 Q. Very well. It was only the date that was

23 interesting for me, the 18th of February. Why did you

24 leave the JNA? I'm asking you this because the JNA

25 gave you a job, certain privileges, and so on. Why did

Page 7412

1 you abandon it?

2 A. Because I was schooled for the five-cornered

3 star, and not for different emblems, the tricolour and

4 a beret. Because another of my friends, a Croat, also

5 abandoned the JNA, because the war started in Croatia,

6 and seeing that we would be deployed as officers, we

7 had to desert the JNA, not to be used in the war. We

8 didn't want the war.

9 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, is it true that already

10 in '91, the JNA attacked Slovenia with tanks and

11 aircraft?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it true that already in '91, Vukovar in

14 Croatia was attacked, as well as Dubrovnik?

15 A. Yes. All this was in full swing.

16 Q. Is it also true that in the Republic of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the JNA razed to the ground the

18 village of Ravno at the end of '91?

19 A. I don't recall that with precision, but I had

20 the good fortune for my uncle to fix it for me not to

21 be deployed anywhere else until I managed to go back to

22 Bosnia.

23 Q. So on the 18th of February, you managed to

24 leave?

25 A. Yes, with the help of this colleague of mine

Page 7413

1 who helped me get back to Bosnia.

2 Q. Let us go to the next set of questions. In

3 your testimony today, and this is something you

4 referred to in your earlier statements as well, you

5 said that in the Vitez Hotel, on the 20th of May, 1992,

6 Samir Trako had been killed, and that your commander,

7 Mr. Hakija Cengic, went to the Hotel Vitez for a

8 meeting with Mr. Cerkez, and you escorted him there?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You told us, Mr. Kavazovic, that you noticed

11 that Mr. Cerkez was wearing a black uniform with HOS

12 patches.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. At the time, or now, did you know what his

15 role was, what his position was in the organisation of

16 HOS?

17 A. I don't know. I think that he was a

18 commander of HOS, or a section of HOS. I can't be more

19 precise. But I do know that he held a position there,

20 because he was able to talk with my commander. So that

21 was a command level, so they must have been on a par.

22 Q. In addition to Mr. Cengic and Mr. Cerkez, was

23 anyone else present?

24 A. Yes, Anto Furundzija. Who else was inside, I

25 don't know. I came with Cengic; I don't know who was

Page 7414

1 inside. They mentioned Valenta, and I don't know

2 whom.

3 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, a moment ago in your testimony

4 you mentioned the name of Mr. Edib Zlotrg. Did you

5 know him?

6 A. We were together in the camp.

7 Q. Very well. But did you know him from before?

8 A. No, I did not.

9 Q. Had you heard that he was a forensic

10 technician in the Vitez police station?

11 A. I know he worked in the administration, but I

12 had no contact with the civilian police. I know he was

13 in the police, a civilian policeman, and for a while I

14 think he worked with Santic, if that is correct, but

15 I'm not sure.

16 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, did you know somebody called

17 Mr. Muhamed Mujezinovic?

18 A. Yes, I did, because he came from my village.

19 He was born in Vrhovine.

20 Q. Did you know that in those days, that

21 evening, on the 20th of May, he attended a meeting in

22 the hotel, a meeting of the crisis staff in connection

23 with this murder? Did you know that?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you know that Mr. Edib Zlotrg, as a crime

Page 7415

1 technician of the Vitez police, participated in the

2 inquest in connection with this killing?

3 A. I heard that later, but I didn't see him that

4 evening. I just came with Cengic and Furundzija.

5 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, if I were to tell you that

6 both these gentlemen, Mr. Zlotrg and Mujezinovic,

7 testified in court in this Tribunal about that event,

8 and their contact with Mr. Cerkez that evening, that

9 both of them said that Mr. Cerkez was wearing a

10 camouflage uniform and not a black uniform, what would

11 be your comment? Would you still insist that he was in

12 a black uniform?

13 A. I still insist that he was in a black

14 uniform.

15 Q. Mr. Kavazovic, you made several prior

16 statements through the court's investigators, among

17 them one on the 7th of May, 1993, also to the 3rd Corps

18 of the BH army; then a statement on the 2nd of

19 September, '95, to the investigators of the

20 Prosecution; then a statement on the 26th of January,

21 1997; and then on the 26th of May this year, after the

22 hearing of this case had already started. Only then,

23 in this last statement, which you made seven years and

24 six days after the killing of Samir Trako, you

25 mentioned for the first time that Mario Cerkez was

Page 7416

1 wearing a black uniform. How come you never said that

2 before?

3 A. Let me tell you, maybe I wasn't asked that

4 question before during the examination here, but I do

5 know that evening there were three meetings, not just

6 one.

7 Q. I see. Nobody asked you that.

8 Mr. Kavazovic, let us go on to another topic now. You

9 told us that by order of Miroslav Bralo, known as

10 Cicko, you were taken to the health centre in Busovaca

11 and then from there to the Draga barracks?

12 A. From the first-aid or Emergency department in

13 Busovaca, when they gave me medical treatment, infusion

14 and some other shots, and then a nurse, I think she was

15 called Marija --

16 Q. Never mind. So from the first-aid station in

17 Busovaca, you were taken to the former barracks called

18 Draga?

19 A. No, not Draga. No, the camp. Draga is

20 behind Busovaca.

21 Q. The camp Seliste?

22 A. I mean the warehouses of the Territorial

23 Defence at Kaonik. I'm afraid I don't understand

24 anything anymore.

25 Q. Allow me to ask you. Do you think that these

Page 7417

1 localities that you have mentioned -- Draga, Seliste,

2 and the Kaonik camp -- are one and the same place?

3 A. No, it's not one and the same place. Kaonik

4 is where I was held in the camp; Seliste is where I was

5 in the Bungalow; and Draga is quite a different

6 barracks, behind Busovaca. I was never there. Now it

7 is a barracks of the Federation army, or rather it was

8 the HVO, now the Federation army.

9 Q. Yes, I understand what you are telling me,

10 but 20 minutes ago, you said that from the Busovaca

11 medical centre you were taken to the Draga barracks?

12 A. No, Kaonik. Kaonik. I couldn't have been

13 taken to the Draga barracks.

14 Q. Very well. Be that as it may, tell us,

15 Mr. Kavazovic, the building that you were detained in

16 in Kaonik, was it divided up into cells inside?

17 A. Yes, it was. There were rooms with two

18 walls; there were nine or ten rooms.

19 MR. MIKULICIC: I would ask the usher to show

20 the witness Prosecution Exhibit Z1874.

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mikulicic, how long do you

22 think you might be in cross-examination?

23 MR. MIKULICIC: Another five minutes, on the

24 outside.

25 Q. This was an exhibit tendered today, if that

Page 7418

1 can be of any assistance. Mr. Kavazovic, will you look

2 at the second page of this exhibit.

3 Tell us what it represents, this drawing of

4 yours.

5 A. This drawing represents the building in which

6 I was detained at Kaonik.

7 Q. Very well. The numbers indicate the numbers

8 of the cells, don't they?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And you say, Mr. Kavasovic, that that

11 building was in the middle of the circle that you drew

12 on page 4 of this exhibit?

13 A. Yes, it is in the middle, but I was in room

14 number 5.

15 Q. Mr. Kavasovic, were you personally able to

16 see the interior of the other buildings within the

17 compound?

18 A. No. Except for this one.

19 Q. So you didn't see any other building from the

20 inside?

21 A. From the inside, no, but I went out once to

22 help to load sand.

23 Q. Yes, you told us about that. Mr. Kavasovic,

24 please don't misunderstand me, but I'm asking you this

25 for procedural reasons. A moment ago you told us that

Page 7419

1 after these events that you've testified to, that you

2 were in hospital, that you had some psychiatric

3 problems, and that you were there under examination.

4 Will you tell us how you feel in that respect today?

5 What is your condition today?

6 A. My condition, ever since I left the camp in

7 1993, I went for consultations with a

8 neuropsychiatrist, but otherwise I'm fine.

9 Q. I'm glad to hear that. My last question,

10 Mr. Kavasovic: In the summer of 1992, who was the

11 commander of the municipal HVO staff? Was that Marijan

12 Skopljak?

13 A. In the summer? Could you be more specific

14 regarding the date?

15 Q. June or July 1992.

16 A. I don't know exactly. Marijan Skopljak was

17 linked to the police administration, I think.

18 Q. Mr. Kavasovic, may I just remind you, maybe

19 you're confusing Pero and Marijan Skopljak. I'm asking

20 you about Marijan Skopljak.

21 A. I don't know. I cannot give you an answer.

22 Q. Thank you for your answers.

23 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, I have no

24 further questions.

25 MS. SOMERS: No re-examination.

Page 7420

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kavasovic, that concludes

2 your evidence. Thank you for coming again to the

3 International Tribunal to give evidence. You are now

4 released.

5 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE MAY: We will sit tomorrow at 10.15 and

8 go on until 4.45.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

10 4.08 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

11 the 23rd day of September, 1999

12 at 10.15 a.m.

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