Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7563

1 Friday, 24th September, 1999

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 THE REGISTRAR: IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor

7 versus Dario Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers -- I'm sorry.

9 I've got ahead.

10 Yes, Mr. Scott.

11 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE MAY: Paragraph, please.

13 MR. SCOTT: 219, Your Honour.


15 Examined by Mr. Scott:

16 Q. Again, Major, after discussions with counsel,

17 at the Court's direction, we're going to move through

18 much of this material quite quickly, just so you know

19 how we're proceeding.

20 Is it correct sir, that on the 30th of April,

21 1993, you and an ECMM team also inspected an HVO prison

22 at Kiseljak, at the Kiseljak barracks, and at that

23 location you found that there were 48 Muslim civilian

24 men detained in an approximately 93-cubic-metre room?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7564

1 Q. Did you have any understanding, talking to

2 the HVO commander or based on your observations at the

3 location, why these particular civilian men were

4 detained?

5 A. They were detained because they were

6 Muslims.

7 Q. Were you able to determine any other reason

8 why they were being kept there at that time?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Is it correct, sir, that on the 8th of May,

11 1993, you visited Fojnica, which is southwest of

12 Kiseljak; it was peaceful there, and the Muslims and

13 Croats there were still living together without any

14 problems?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. On the 11th of May of 1993, did an RC Zenica

17 team, including yourself, report the matter of two

18 Muslim families in Nova Bila who were forced out of

19 their houses by a special HVO unit, and then two Croat

20 families were moved into the Muslim houses in their

21 place?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You were actually observing as the HVO was

24 moving the Muslim families out and moving the Croat

25 families in?

Page 7565

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Was the commander -- did you understand the

3 commander of this HVO unit was someone nicknamed

4 "Zuti"?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And "Zuti," to your knowledge, in

7 Serbo-Croatian means "yellow"?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And this Zuti was there supervising the

10 operation?

11 A. Yes, he was.

12 Q. Is it correct, sir, that on the 10th of June,

13 1993, you were appointed chairman of a commission

14 called the Joint Humanitarian Commission to oversee the

15 release of prisoners pursuant to a recent ceasefire

16 agreement which was signed by General Petkovic for the

17 HVO and by the senior commander of the ABiH? Is that

18 correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I take it, sir, that one of the important

21 features of this agreement was an agreement by both

22 sides to release prisoners?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. In the course of then carrying out your new

25 duties as chairman of this commission, around the 15th

Page 7566

1 of June, 1993, did you hear that -- or obtain some

2 information that Muslim prisoners were being kept at

3 the HVO police station at the Vitez cinema?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. This was the Vitez cinema which, first of

6 all, was only a few hundred metres away from Colonel

7 Blaskic's headquarters; is that correct?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. It was also in the very same building that

10 Mario Cerkez's headquarters was; is that correct?

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. On the 15th of June, sir, based on that

13 information, did you proceed to the HVO police station

14 at the cinema?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you talked to the police chief?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is it correct that the police chief first

19 told you that there were no prisoners in the police

20 station, and you responded to that by showing him a

21 document which authorised you to search the building;

22 and on being confronted with this authorisation, the

23 police chief then admitted to you that there were five

24 Muslim civilians in a small room in the basement?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 7567

1 Q. They were in poor condition?

2 A. They were.

3 Q. Were these soldiers, sir, to the best of your

4 -- based on your observations at the time?

5 A. No, they were civilian. One of them was too

6 young to be a soldier and four of them were too old.

7 Q. Now --

8 JUDGE MAY: Sorry to interrupt. You saw

9 these civilians, did you, in the basement?

10 A. Yes, I did, Your Honour.


12 Q. Moving on, on the 21st of June, 1993, did you

13 and members of the prisoner commission go to the HVO

14 prison at Kiseljak barracks?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. When you arrived there, the HVO commander at

17 the Kiseljak barracks told you that all of the

18 prisoners there had already been released; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You asked him for some written certification

22 or confirmation that that was in fact the case, and

23 upon being confronted on that, the commander changed

24 his position and basically said, "Well, they are not

25 released. They are working in the field"?

Page 7568

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. Could you, sir, from where you stood in

3 having this meeting and around the Kiseljak barracks,

4 see any fields or farms in that immediate area?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you push -- did you question the HVO

7 commander further about his explanation that the

8 prisoners were in the field?

9 A. Actually he told me that it was his way to

10 say that they were on the battlefield, digging trenches

11 and clearing mine fires -- minefields.

12 Q. What happened after he told you that? What

13 did you do next?

14 A. Of course we made a protest at the spot and

15 asked him to bring them back. I told him a little

16 about the Geneva Convention, and he told me that they

17 didn't count the Geneva Convention for anything down

18 there.

19 Q. Well, first of all -- let's take that in a

20 little smaller pieces. First of all, on being pushed,

21 he admitted to you himself that these prisoners, these

22 Muslim prisoners, were out digging trenches and

23 clearing minefields?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. When you protested and mentioned to him the

Page 7569

1 compliance with the Geneva Conventions, his response to

2 you was what?

3 A. That it wasn't used in this conflict.

4 Q. And you waited there, and is it correct, sir,

5 that about ten hours later the prisoners returned to

6 camp and you saw that they were Muslim civilians?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, one minor point

9 of clarification. Could we know the name and rank of

10 the individual who made these statements? I don't know

11 that counsel has established that.


13 Q. Major, if you know that information could you

14 give it to us?

15 A. I do not know the name of the commander, but

16 he was the commander of Kiseljak barracks and the

17 person who was responsible for the prison.

18 Q. When you went to Kiseljak for the purposes of

19 carrying out your mission as the chairman of this

20 commission, how did you come about identifying this

21 person or come into contact with this person as the

22 responsible person there?

23 A. One of the members of this Joint Humanitarian

24 Commission was Mr. Skopljak from the HVO.

25 Q. This is Pero Skopljak?

Page 7570

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And Mr. Skopljak pointed or directed you to

3 this HVO officer as the person in charge?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. All right. Is it correct, sir, that the

6 prisoners then, once they'd returned to camp under your

7 supervision, were released and transported to Zenica?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. If I can direct your attention one last time

10 to the photographs. It should be the last item in the

11 bundle of photographic or map material; it is 1894.1,

12 1894.1. This is an aerial photograph of Kiseljak or

13 part of Kiseljak; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Have you previously circled on this aerial

16 photograph the Kiseljak -- a portion of the Kiseljak

17 barracks which were being used by the HVO as a prison?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. That's marked there approximately to the left

20 of the middle of the page?

21 A. [Indicates]

22 Q. All right. Let the record show the witness

23 is pointing to the circled area in blue.

24 All right. Now, these prisoners that were

25 released, again, you were able to confirm that when

Page 7571

1 they came back to the camp they were in civilian

2 clothes, and when they were questioned through

3 interpreters they identify themselves, in fact, as

4 civilians?

5 A. Yes. Yes. And ICRC had interviewed them as

6 well.

7 Q. International Committee of the Red Cross?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On the 23rd of June, 1993, sir, did you go to

10 Skradno, which is east of Vitez, where you learned that

11 the HVO was holding 88 Muslim prisoners there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And were you able to determine whether these

14 Muslims were people who were from Skradno or is it

15 correct, sir, that they had been brought or taken there

16 by the Bosnian Croats from another village called

17 Bukovci?

18 A. That's correct. They were not from Skradno.

19 The HVO had transported them from Bukovici to Skradno.

20 Q. Did you have occasion to talk to these

21 prisoners or some of them?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did they express any particular concern to

24 you at that time about being held in Skradno?

25 A. Yes. They were very afraid that Skradno

Page 7572

1 should be a new Ahmici.

2 Q. What did you understand they -- did they say

3 anything to you to explain what they meant by that

4 statement?

5 A. They were afraid that the HVO will make

6 another massacre against them.

7 Q. Sir, is it correct -- turning to a different

8 -- moving on to a different subject or topic -- that a

9 commander in military forces is not only expected to

10 issue orders or make his orders or wishes known to his

11 subordinate officers, but that there's also -- he has

12 also the responsibility to see that those orders are

13 carried out?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. In the course of your 20-plus years in the

16 Danish army, is it correct, sir, that one of the

17 commander's responsibilities is to make sure his

18 subordinates know that they are to comply with the Laws

19 and Customs of War, including the Geneva Conventions?

20 And in the Danish army, in fact, is that part of the

21 training that all officers receive?

22 A. All officers and all men, actually.

23 Q. And it falls to the commander to make sure

24 that those laws and responsibilities are complied with?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7573

1 Q. If I could ask you to look at and direct the

2 Court's attention to Exhibit 550.

3 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, there is a last

4 bundle of exhibits. There are actually a number of

5 exhibits -- I haven't counted them offhand but say ten

6 or a dozen -- that are all bound, again, in the order

7 in which I intend to go through them, rather quickly,

8 but the Court will see -- well, let me tell the Court

9 what they are. No secret. These are a series of

10 orders starting about the 17th of March and continuing

11 until approximately the 24th of April of 1993, issued

12 by Colonel Blaskic and others, directing the HVO troops

13 to comply with it, essentially my shorthand term,

14 "International Humanitarian Law," to investigate for

15 any criminal conduct among the troops to make sure that

16 civilians were not mistreated, to make sure that

17 civilian property was not damaged or looted, to make

18 sure that any alleged atrocities were investigated.

19 You'll see that -- the Court, counsel, and the witness

20 will see that in the course of this bundle of

21 exhibits.

22 JUDGE MAY: Your having summarised it in that

23 way, is it necessary to go through them?

24 MR. SCOTT: Only briefly. I want to hit a

25 few points in each one.

Page 7574



3 Q. Let's take a little bit more time with the

4 first one, 550, just to orient everyone to the rest of

5 the bundle. Once you understand the one document, the

6 rest are somewhat similar.

7 On Exhibit 550, this is an order from

8 Colonel Blaskic dated the 17th of March, titled "The

9 Treatment of Persons Inclined to Criminal and

10 Destructive Conduct."

11 Now, looking over to the right top portion of

12 the page, sir, these are apparently -- is it correct to

13 say, as a military officer, that Colonel Blaskic is

14 directing the orders to the units, components, listed

15 there?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So he starts with commanders of HVO brigades

18 in his area of command; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. That would include the Vitez Brigade

21 commanded by Mario Cerkez?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. He gave the orders to the Vitezovi special

24 task force?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7575

1 Q. He gave the orders to the Vitez military

2 police, 4th Battalion?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. He gave the orders to chief of Travnik police

5 department?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And he gave chief -- and he gave these orders

8 to HVO presidents "(to be notified)"?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Just to highlight one of the paragraphs, in

11 paragraph number 1, it's his order -- it's -- excuse

12 me, Colonel Blaskic's order, among other things, to

13 immediately order platoon, company, and battalion

14 commanders at all levels to assess the conduct of

15 conscripts and name the persons inclined toward

16 destructive and criminal conduct in particular. Do you

17 see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, is it typical sir, that the way the --

20 in the military chain of command that when a superior

21 officer issues an order, then his subordinate officers

22 you would expect to issue orders on down the line, so

23 to speak?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. All right. If we could go to Exhibit 553,

Page 7576

1 which is the next exhibit, Your Honour, after the

2 various -- after the French translation and B/C/S

3 translation of that document, to get to Exhibit 553.

4 Sir, this is an order the very next day, you

5 will see, the 18th of March 1993. If you look at the

6 second page of that exhibit, this was an order by Mario

7 Cerkez; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. Would you -- looking at the text of his

10 order, Mr. Cerkez's order, you will see that, is it

11 essentially correct, passes on, or if you want to use

12 the word "duplicates," essentially Colonel Blaskic's

13 order; is that correct? At least the top part?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Again -- all right. Mr. Cerkez is passing it

16 on down his chain of command, including, again, the

17 people and groups listed on the top right portion,

18 "Attention: HVO leadership, Attention: 1st Battalion

19 commander," all the way down to brigade military

20 police. Do you see that?

21 A. Yes. And including the artillery commander

22 in Vitez.

23 Q. Again, as with Colonel Blaskic, paragraph 1,

24 he directs all of his subordinates to essentially

25 assess and identify any perpetrators of destructive

Page 7577

1 acts, especially criminal ones?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And if you go to Exhibit 554, --

4 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I have

5 to object. The evidence we just passed through alleged

6 Cerkez order under Z553. We have only translation.

7 Then there is another order, 554, which is signed by

8 the battalion commander, so a level under Cerkez, and

9 this one has the original document and translation as

10 well. But the Cerkez order does not have -- we do not

11 have a document. There's no document.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

13 MR. SCOTT: Counsel's absolutely correct. I

14 can provide it. For whatever reason it was not

15 immediately with this document.

16 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you would do so as soon

17 as convenient.

18 MR. SCOTT: We'll ask someone to send it

19 over, Your Honour. My apologies. I'll check again. I

20 checked it several times, but for some reason it was

21 not with the document and my apologies to counsel but

22 it will be provided.

23 Q. If we go to Exhibit 554, as counsel has just

24 indicated, this is an order, the next day, still the

25 next day, the 19th of March, and this is by one of

Page 7578

1 Mr. Cerkez's subordinate commanders; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. This is the 1st Battalion of the Viteska

4 Brigade. So we have in this series of orders, we have

5 an order from Colonel Blaskic on the 17th of March,

6 going to Mario Cerkez, Mario Cerkez's order on the 18th

7 of March to his subordinates, and then an order on the

8 19th of March from one of Mr. Cerkez's subordinates to

9 his officers; is that correct?

10 A. Yes it is.

11 Q. Going to Exhibit 572, it should be the next

12 in the bundle. This is an order from Colonel Blaskic

13 dated the 26th of March, 1993, and essentially setting

14 out again directed to all unit commanders in the

15 Central Bosnia Operative Zone, "Subject: Clarification

16 on persons authorised to appoint and dismiss officers

17 and noncommissioned officers," and according to

18 Colonel Blaskic and the official publications of the

19 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, one might refer to

20 it as the Narodni List or Official Gazette, he then

21 lists at the various levels persons authorised to

22 appoint and dismiss officers; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Pointing your attention to, in particular,

25 for present purposes, paragraph number 3, is it made

Page 7579

1 clear, sir, that the brigade commanders, such as Mario

2 Cerkez, had the authority to appoint and dismiss

3 subordinate officers?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Going to the next exhibit, 715, this is an

6 order by Colonel Blaskic dated the 18th of April. And

7 in among other things, I just want to highlight

8 paragraph 4, gather the relevant data about the actors

9 of the conflict, the causes of banishing people,

10 murdering civilians and soldiers, burning houses and

11 other buildings. And Colonel Blaskic ordered all of

12 his commanders to make those inquiries; is that

13 correct?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. This was copied, you will see at the top, to

16 the UNPROFOR commander, Colonel Stewart, and to the

17 ECMM; is that correct?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. By this time, in fact, there was some --

20 there had already been some outcry about the incidents

21 around Ahmici and Vitez; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In fact, do you recall that both Colonel

24 Stewart and the ECMM were making demands on Mr. Blaskic

25 at this time -- Colonel Blaskic -- to investigate these

Page 7580

1 atrocities?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. SCOTT: I see that counsel is on his

4 feet, Your Honour.

5 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, without going into

6 the details, a couple of those documents, again, we

7 only have translations, not the original document.

8 JUDGE MAY: Could you give us the numbers,

9 please, so we could --

10 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please,

11 Mr. President.

12 MR. KOVACIC: 572. 572 at least, because the

13 other one issued by Blaskic, 715, seems to be issued at

14 that time in both languages, English and Croatian.

15 MR. SCOTT: Same commitment, Your Honour.

16 We're inquiring now, electronically, as we can.

17 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, if there are any

19 others missing, just shout out, will you, as we go

20 through, if the originals are missing.

21 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.

22 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour.

23 Q. All right. I think we'll move -- 767 is just

24 another order from Colonel Blaskic in a similar tone,

25 the date of the 21st of April, the 22nd -- 781 is again

Page 7581

1 the 22nd of April, 1993, by Colonel Blaskic. Among

2 other things, item 1: "I strictly prohibit the

3 torching of houses and other commercial facilities and

4 looting in the zone of responsibility of Central Bosnia

5 Operative Zone."

6 2: "Brigade and independent unit commanders

7 must issue an order to their subordinates to make them

8 responsible for preventing such crimes."

9 3: "The most stringent measures shall be

10 taken against violators of this order pursuant to the

11 regulation book on military discipline in HVO units."

12 Going to Exhibit 791, order from Colonel

13 Blaskic on the 23rd of April, 1993, some six or seven

14 days after Ahmici, to all subordinate HVO commanders

15 concerning the behaviour of HVO members and the level

16 of military discipline. Colonel Blaskic says:

17 "Because of very strong condemnation from the

18 international community and the media campaign that is

19 being conducted against the HVO and the Croatian

20 people, which have extremely negative consequences for

21 the overall reputation of the HVO and the achievements

22 of the Croatian people globally, and in order to

23 prevent further destructive activities and fully

24 implement the orders of the HVO chief of staff or the

25 main headquarters," and Colonel Blaskic gives further

Page 7582

1 orders. Is that correct, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Exhibit 804 is to a similar effect. So is

4 Exhibit 805, treatment of the wounded.

5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott,

6 we're going through these documents. We have them.

7 Where do you intend to go with these documents in

8 relation to the witness? What are you seeking to prove

9 to us by going through and rereading these documents?

10 We have them, in effect.

11 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] We know what

13 they are about. You can mention them to us, but do you

14 wish to obtain special information from the witness

15 about these documents? Because we are coming to the

16 end of the examination, and I think we need to save

17 time. Thank you.

18 MR. SCOTT: Absolutely. And the Court is

19 absolutely correct, and no, I'm not going to go into

20 any additional of these orders, other than the last

21 two, in a few minutes. The purpose of the exercise was

22 both to acquaint the Court with these orders and as a

23 foundation to several follow-up questions to Major

24 Baggesen.

25 Q. Major, as you said a few moments ago, is it

Page 7583

1 correct to say that a military commander is expected

2 and in fact required not only to issue orders but to

3 make sure they are carried out?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And what is the responsibility of a military

6 commander if he finds that his orders are not being

7 carried out?

8 A. The consequence could be that he had to

9 replace one of his subordinate commanders. So if a

10 commander of one of his units is not following this

11 order, then he had to remove him.

12 Q. All right. Let me ask you here, sir, some

13 questions that fit in here that may come up in other

14 testimony. Are you familiar with the concept or term

15 called a "forward command post"?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What is a forward command post?

18 A. A forward command post is a command post

19 where the commander, with some of his staff, will be

20 when an operation is going on. Example, if you are

21 fighting and you have your troops in the field, then

22 the commander of the unit would be in his forward

23 command post, in the field, close to a front.

24 Q. During your tenure in Central Bosnia, did you

25 learn that General Bobetko of the Croatian army, the

Page 7584

1 HV, had established a forward command post in Central

2 Bosnia, at Gornji Vakuf?

3 A. We were told, but I haven't been in Gornji

4 Vakuf; just passed through Gornji Vakuf. I've never

5 been there as a monitor.

6 Q. Had that information been reported and made

7 known to the ECMM?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. SCOTT: In terms of military police chain

10 of command, it may be most helpful if you can have --

11 if the witness could be provided a piece of paper on

12 the ELMO, Your Honour, because I think he can diagram

13 an answer to my question the way he showed it to me,

14 and it would be the most helpful.

15 Q. Major, if you could, if you could show a box

16 at the brigade -- at a brigade level of what you would

17 expect -- what the command structure would be like in

18 terms of -- would there be a unit under the brigade

19 level for military police?

20 A. Yes. In a NATO army, per se, the military

21 police normally started at the corps level. At the

22 corps level, there's normally a military police

23 battalion. At brigade level, there's normally one

24 military police company, or corps, and this military

25 police unit is coming from this unit [indicates]. But

Page 7585

1 the commander of this brigade has a military police

2 company in operational control. From the brigade, the

3 brigade commander is able to take one platoon from this

4 military police company and put it down to the

5 battalion level.

6 Q. All right. So you've shown us on this chart

7 -- and we'll mark this as an exhibit, Your Honour --

8 you've shown us from the level of the corps -- from the

9 corps -- from the level of the corps to the brigade to

10 the battalion, but focusing on that -- I'm sorry, yes,

11 you can leave it on for a moment -- what is now

12 essentially the middle of the page, the military police

13 unit would be assigned at the brigade level, and for

14 day-to-day operational control, who would control that

15 military -- who would control that military police

16 unit?

17 A. The brigade commander.

18 Q. Perhaps, on the exhibit, if I could just

19 suggest, could you draw perhaps some other dotted line

20 from the brigade command, what would be indicative of

21 the brigade commander to that military police unit?

22 A. Yes [indicates]. Okay?

23 Q. Yes?

24 JUDGE MAY: Where are we on the outline,

25 please?

Page 7586

1 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, we're between 237

2 and 238. It's my mistake for not having updated the

3 outline. But that's it, Your Honour. We're now going

4 to 238.


6 MR. SCOTT: Yes, sir?

7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Is the structure as put

8 forward by the Major, is that a universal structure, in

9 military --

10 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. That was my

11 next -- I guess 238 was the next -- Mr. President, that

12 was my next question.

13 Q. You've indicated, Major, that this would be

14 the common structure in a NATO army. Based on your

15 experience in having analysed the Warsaw Pact forces

16 for many years and on any experience or training you

17 observed in Central Bosnia, do you know whether that

18 structure, or something very similar to it, applied to

19 the HVO forces?

20 A. The structure was similar in the Warsaw Pact

21 and in the Soviet Bloc, and it was similar in the JNA.

22 Q. All right. So at least as to the JNA

23 doctrine and practice, that would have been the

24 structure, to best of your knowledge?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7587

1 Q. All right. Now, moving on to --

2 JUDGE MAY: Well, if you're going to move

3 on --

4 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: -- away from that exhibit --

6 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

7 JUDGE MAY: -- we must get it marked.

8 And perhaps, Major, if you could write on the

9 top of it, so we have it for future reference,

10 something to the effect of "NATO Military Police

11 Structure," if that's right.

12 A. Yes, I can do that.

13 JUDGE MAY: If you would do that, and then

14 sign it "Major Baggesen", and then we will remember in

15 the months to come.

16 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, our case manager

17 indicates that we can't assign it a number at the

18 moment, but we promise to, at the first opportune

19 moment, inform the Court and registrar what the number

20 is in our list, existing list.

21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott,

22 you have shown us a certain number of documents, and if

23 I understand well, regarding the orders issued by

24 Colonel Blaskic, concerning offences and behaviour

25 contrary to international law, committed at lower

Page 7588

1 levels, we have seen this diagram shown to us regarding

2 the position of the military police in the hierarchy.

3 Does that mean that these orders did not go right down

4 to the bottom? That is a question that we could ask

5 the witness. Does the witness know what happened with

6 these orders that you have just quoted from in detail,

7 and which have been confirmed to have been issued by

8 Colonel Blaskic? Therefore does he know what happened

9 to these orders that were issued? Were they

10 implemented to the best knowledge of the witness, or

11 were they intentionally ignored? What happened to

12 these orders, if the witness knows?

13 A. Your Honour, when we visited the subunits, we

14 didn't know anything about these orders. We asked them

15 because we knew that Colonel Blaskic had made some

16 orders and normally when we are -- we were visiting the

17 different headquarters, we asked them if they had

18 received orders to do this and this and this. And on

19 the other side, we didn't see any proof that any

20 soldiers who have been responsible for looting or

21 burning houses had been punished. So he made the

22 orders, as he should do as a commander, but if he sent

23 them to his units or he put them into a drawer, we

24 don't know. We have not seen the orders at the lower

25 level commands. So I cannot -- I don't know.

Page 7589

1 JUDGE MAY: There is a mistake in the

2 transcript, I see. At the beginning of the Major's

3 answer, it reads "when we visited the subunits, we

4 didn't know anything about these orders."

5 Is that what you said, Major?

6 A. They.

7 JUDGE MAY: That's what I thought you said,

8 "They didn't know about the orders." Yes. That's a

9 crucial difference.

10 A. Actually, Your Honour, we saw that the

11 Viteska Brigade commander, Mr. Cerkez, had the order

12 and he gave an order to his battalion level, but we

13 haven't seen anything from other units. The commander

14 in Kiseljak, he didn't know about this order.

15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Now you're

16 giving us some additional information in relation to

17 your previous statement. You said Commander Cerkez did

18 receive orders from Colonel Blaskic.

19 A. Well, just --

20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] You were

21 able to verify that Mr. Cerkez, as a brigade commander,

22 had indeed received orders from Colonel Blaskic. They

23 were transmitted to him. But you didn't see, at the

24 level of lower units, that they were passed on after

25 that.

Page 7590

1 A. I have only seen the surface orders here in

2 court just before, one of these. That's what I was

3 trying to say. I have only seen this one.

4 JUDGE MAY: The Exhibit 553.

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE MAY: Dated the 18th of March.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] If I

8 understand you correctly, except for this document,

9 that is, the Exhibit 553, you yourself, when you went

10 out into the field, you never saw any trace of

11 Colonel Blaskic's orders at the level of various units

12 in the field. You never saw those orders because when

13 on the ground, they didn't tell you about

14 General Blaskic's orders to put an end to offensive and

15 criminal behaviour that has been noted by you over

16 there. Am I correct in understanding you?

17 A. Yes, you're correct, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.


20 Q. All right. Just to finish on that before

21 moving on then, Major. It's your testimony that by --

22 in the few days following the events in Ahmici on the

23 16th of April --

24 A. Can I have that question again, please?

25 Q. Yes. I was just waiting on the Court.

Page 7591

1 It's your testimony that by -- or during the

2 first few days following the events in Ahmici on the

3 16th of April, by that time there was known to be an

4 international outcry about the alleged atrocities in

5 Ahmici; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. It was generally known -- in fact, some of

8 the orders that Colonel Blaskic was sending, copies of

9 his orders to the ECMM; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And he had, thereafter, at least on paper,

12 made a number of orders?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So those you did know or the ECMM did know

15 that those orders existed?

16 A. No.

17 Q. You knew that he had issued orders after

18 Ahmici; is that correct?

19 A. Yes, he did.

20 Q. All right. Now, sir, you had been on the

21 Busovaca Joint Commission when you first arrived in

22 April of 1993; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. To your knowledge, is it correct that the

25 Busovaca Joint Commission was established in January

Page 7592

1 1993 and continued for approximately five months into

2 approximately the latter part of April 1993?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. During the time that you were a member of the

5 Busovaca Joint Commission, would it be fair to say that

6 both yourself and other members of ECMM made a number

7 of complaints on a regular basis about the conduct of

8 HVO units and soldiers?

9 A. Yes, we did.

10 Q. The usual HVO representative at these

11 commission meetings was Colonel Blaskic's deputy,

12 Franjo Nakic; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Once you were no longer personally involved

15 in the Busovaca Joint Commission, is it your

16 understanding, from your colleagues, that the ECMM

17 continued to protest and make complaints about HVO

18 conduct at Busovaca Joint Commission meetings?

19 A. Yes, in the commission that they were placed,

20 the Busovaca Joint Commission.

21 Q. What was the name of that?

22 A. Joint Operation Commission, I think it was.

23 Q. During -- at any time during your tour in

24 Central Bosnia, after these complaints were made, did

25 any information come to your attention that any HVO

Page 7593

1 unit or soldier had been disciplined or punished in

2 connection with any of these -- any of this misconduct?

3 A. Not to my knowledge.

4 Q. Can you tell the Court, did you learn, during

5 your time in Bosnia, that there was an instance, in

6 fact, where one HVO Brigade commander was relieved of

7 duty?

8 A. Yes. There was one brigade or battalion

9 commander that was replaced by Colonel Blaskic because

10 this commander refused to attack a civilian village,

11 civilian Muslim village.

12 Q. To your recollection, is it correct sir, that

13 that HVO Brigade commander's name was Stjepan Tuka?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. If I can direct your attention and the

16 Court's attention to Exhibit 731.

17 MR. SCOTT: These are the last two exhibits,

18 Your Honour.

19 Q. This is an order from Colonel Blaskic dated

20 the 19th of April, 1993, to the commander of Fojnica

21 battalion personally, and I may have misspoke if I said

22 "brigade commander," but this HVO commander, directing

23 him, or Colonel Blaskic says:

24 "I call to your attention your duty to

25 execute and comply with the orders issued by the

Page 7594

1 commander of the Kiseljak Ban Jelacic Brigade."

2 Do you see that?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. "Otherwise you will be replaced and will be

5 held responsible in compliance with the regulations of

6 Herceg-Bosna in line with military discipline."

7 Is that correct?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. To go on to Exhibit 743, the last in this

10 bundle. This is a further order dated the 20th of

11 April, 1993, by Colonel Blaskic, as indicated in

12 paragraph -- well, to the commanders of the brigades,

13 the Busovaca Brigade, and to the Fojnica Brigade or

14 Battalion, and Colonel Blaskic says:

15 "I hereby dismiss Mr. Stjepan Tuka from the

16 post of commander of the 3rd Battalion of the --"

17 which was the Busovaca Brigade. Do you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. This incident or this set of events was known

20 to you and to ECMM in the spring of 1993; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Your understanding was the reason that

24 Mr. Tuka was relieved of command is because he refused

25 to attack Muslim civilians?

Page 7595

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Do you know of any other order or situation

3 of any HVO officer being disciplined during your tour

4 of duty in Central Bosnia other than Stjepan Tuka?

5 A. No.

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott,

7 if I understood well your question to the witness,

8 Mr. Tuka -- Commander Tuka was dismissed because he

9 refused to attack Muslim civilians. Was that the

10 question you put to the witness? How does the witness

11 know that? Did the witness see a document or how does

12 he know the reason for Mr. Tuka's dismissal?


14 Q. Can you say, Major?

15 A. Yes. We were told not by Mr. Tuka, but

16 another team were going to have a meeting in the

17 Kiseljak area, and they were going to have a meeting

18 with Mr. Tuka. They were told that he was not present

19 any more because he was replaced, and he was replaced

20 because he didn't want to -- I can't remember if it was

21 Fojnica, but he was replaced because he refused to

22 attack a Muslim village. So it had been told to one of

23 our teams by members of the HVO.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So somebody

25 in your team told you that he heard it from somebody

Page 7596

1 from the HVO, but you cannot tell us the names of the

2 people concerned?

3 A. Not who specifically from the HVO told it to

4 one of our team, but they were going to have a meeting

5 with Mr. Tuka, and when they came to his headquarters,

6 the team was told that he was replaced because he

7 didn't want to carry out this order.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] But who

9 among your team in the ECMM -- who is the person who

10 told you about this? Could you tell us that?

11 A. Your Honour, I cannot recall which team were

12 in Kiseljak at that time or who was a member of the

13 team.

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 In any event, apart from this information that you

16 received through an intermediary, you have no other

17 information to corroborate this report regarding the

18 motives which led to the dismissal of Mr. Tuka? You

19 have no other evidence except this?

20 A. No. But there may be other evidence, because

21 I can remember that it was discussed with the UNPROFOR

22 unit in Kiseljak. So maybe they have some other

23 evidence on that.

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Scott, do you have any other

25 evidence that you'll call about this?

Page 7597

1 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, we have other

2 evidence. I think we have exhausted this particular

3 witness's knowledge, but I think I can represent to the

4 Court that there's other witness and documentary

5 evidence concerning this matter.

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. Finally, just one further point of military

9 command. Sir, in your -- based on your training

10 experience, in a situation where the physical geography

11 of a command might be physically disconnected, if you

12 will, and his area might be divided in some fashion,

13 does that any way relieve or excuse him from meeting

14 his command obligations?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Based on your training and experience, not

17 only in the Danish army but your knowledge of NATO

18 armies and the Warsaw Pact armies, do the military

19 commanders ultimately report to their political

20 superiors?

21 A. That's normal, yes, on the higher level.

22 Q. In your experience, sir, have you ever known

23 of a Colonel being promoted to General who had not --

24 who did not -- had not carried out the wishes of his

25 political masters?

Page 7598

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we need an answer

3 on that. It will be for us to draw conclusions in

4 respect to the witness.


6 Q. What happened -- let me ask you this

7 question, sir: What are the ramifications for a

8 military officer if he is known among his colleagues

9 and among his superiors for not -- if I can repeat.

10 What are the ramifications for a military

11 officer if he is known among his colleagues or

12 superiors as not being able to control his subordinates

13 or troops?

14 A. Then he will not be promoted to a higher

15 rank.

16 Q. That would be viewed as a serious deficiency

17 for an officer, would it not?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. To the best of your knowledge, sir, was your

20 work as an ECMM monitor fully respected and subject to

21 commendation by the ECMM and your colleagues?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Following your tenure as an ECMM monitor in

24 Bosnia, is it correct, sir, that you in fact, trained

25 new monitors for the ECMM for the former Yugoslavia?

Page 7599

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. In 1996, sir, were you asked by the Danish

3 Centre for Human Rights to train Russian civilian human

4 rights monitors for service in Chechnya?

5 A. Yes, I did.

6 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I can now give some

7 further clarification for sitting down on exhibits.

8 The drawing that mister -- excuse me, Major Baggesen

9 did can be marked as 2768, 2-7-6-8, and I do have the

10 Serbo-Croatian translations for Exhibit 572 and 553,

11 with apologies to counsel.

12 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps someone could pass that

13 across.

14 MR. SCOTT: Mr. Usher?

15 JUDGE MAY: Usher, if you could pass the

16 document, please.

17 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. No

18 further questions.

19 MR. KOVACIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour, but I'm

20 now not sure. We were not asking for Serbo-Croatian

21 translation of the document, we were asking for the

22 original document which is supposed to be issued in the

23 Croatian language.

24 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I think

25 this ought to be further clarified then. Did I say --

Page 7600

1 the orders are the original or copies of the original.

2 I didn't mean translations.

3 JUDGE MAY: Can the matter be clarified

4 perhaps during the adjournment?

5 MR. SCOTT: I would think so, Your Honour.

6 It was my mistake. I should not have used the word

7 "translation." They are the B/C/S originals of the

8 orders.

9 MR. KOVACIC: Just in order to clear that,

10 there are also two other documents used. It is Z767

11 and Z805, where copies of the original Croatian

12 language documents are not legible at all. It's not

13 that, you know, you can recognise a part of it, none,

14 nothing, zero.

15 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, we'll attempt to

16 address the matter further.

17 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

18 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.

19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, if you'd like to make

20 a start, and when you find a convenient moment, about

21 11.00, we'll adjourn.

22 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President. I

23 have tried to put together a list of or a bunch of

24 documents that I will try to go through sequentially

25 with the witness. I've tried to make sure that the

Page 7601

1 exhibits are all arranged in chronological order, and I

2 hope it will facilitate an expeditious handling of the

3 cross-examination. With the Court's permission, I'd

4 like to hand those up.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could we have copies for

6 the booths, please?

7 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers:

8 Q. While that's being attended to, Major, good

9 morning. My name is Stephen Sayers. I represent Dario

10 Kordic.

11 Major, you've demonstrated an ability to

12 answer in terse military language yes or no to

13 questions, and that has facilitated the prompt handling

14 of your direct-examination. I'd like to use the same

15 technique in the not unrealistic hope, I hope, that we

16 will be through with you by the end of the day. Is

17 that acceptable?

18 A. Yes, that's fine.

19 Q. If you need to say more than yes or no to

20 questions, please let me know and we'll have the

21 explanation given to the Trial Chamber.

22 You were asked questions about the diagram

23 that you drew, Exhibit Z2768, the chain of command of

24 the military police. As I understand it, sir, you are

25 of the opinion that the military police commanders

Page 7602

1 exercised at corps level?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That detachments of the military police are

4 then seconded essentially to battalion level; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And then from battalion level down to brigade

7 level; correct?

8 A. No, to company level.

9 Q. To company level. Very well. That's not

10 unusual in military organisations, is it? In fact,

11 that's the structure of the military police command

12 that you observed in the HVO during your time in

13 Central Bosnia; correct?

14 A. Actually, we were not sure if they were using

15 the same structure as what's known from the JNA and

16 from other armies.

17 Q. Were you sure about what the military police

18 command in the Muslim forces was, sir?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You mentioned that complaints about HVO

21 conduct were relatively routine at the Busovaca Joint

22 Commission meetings and at the organisation that

23 followed that, the joint operations command. The same

24 is true of conduct of the Muslim forces, is it not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7603

1 Q. Now, you do not speak any Croatian, do you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You relied upon interpreters?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In the Blaskic case, you informed the Court

6 that you had been instructed that you were not

7 permitted to converse or speak with Defence lawyers;

8 correct?

9 A. Yes. Not ordered.

10 Q. Instructed?

11 A. No. It was up to ourselves if you want to do

12 that.

13 Q. But you did not converse with the Defence

14 lawyers in the Blaskic case, did you?

15 A. No, because they already had my statement.

16 Q. And the same is true in this case, is it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, you kept a contemporaneous document

19 called a "War Diary"; correct?

20 A. Yes. It was a personal diary I kept for

21 myself. It was not -- it should not be an official

22 document. If I had known it would be an official

23 document, I would have maybe used some other words. So

24 it was just a private diary.

25 MR. SAYERS: I would like to have a copy of

Page 7604

1 this marked as the next exhibit. This is a copy of the

2 Major's war diary, Your Honour, and I do not believe

3 that there are any personal details in here that would

4 be embarrassing to the Major. The entries pretty much

5 are consumed solely with his observations during his

6 time in Central Bosnia.

7 Q. That's consistent with your recollection, is

8 it?

9 A. Yes. Some of my observations and some of my

10 personal -- what I have are feelings about what

11 happened down there.

12 Q. Very well.

13 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be

14 Exhibit D75/1.


16 Q. You actually provided an edited version to

17 the Prosecution of this diary, did you not?

18 A. No, I didn't. Actually, I don't know how the

19 Prosecutor's office had a copy of my diary. It may

20 have been given to them by one of the other witnesses.

21 Q. Was it maintained by you in handwriting, or

22 did you type it up?

23 A. In the beginning, in Bosnia, it was

24 handwriting. When I came back, when I had to work all

25 my -- work it all through, I typed it on my computer.

Page 7605

1 Q. All right.

2 A. In Danish. And then this had been translated

3 from the Croatian translation of the Danish original,

4 so ...

5 Q. The diary covers March the 30th until July

6 the 1st, 1993; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. There's a large block from April the 6th to

9 April the 18th which was not maintained

10 contemporaneously; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Just a summary of your observations during

13 that time period?

14 A. Yes, because I didn't have time enough to

15 write the diary at that time.

16 Q. All right. So would it be fair to say that

17 in this contemporaneous document, you noted down

18 significant events, significant meetings, and

19 significant personages that you came into contact with

20 during your ten weeks, I believe, in Central Bosnia;

21 correct?

22 A. Some of it. Some of it. Not everything.

23 Q. All right. And you would agree with me that

24 there is not a single mention of Mr. Kordic's name

25 anywhere in that contemporaneous chronicle of

Page 7606

1 significant events, significant meetings, and

2 significant persons; is that correct, sir?

3 A. I think maybe he is mentioned once or twice.

4 Q. Well, I'm sure, if he is, that will be

5 pointed out to you.

6 Now, you testified for three days in the

7 Blaskic case in 1997; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you've give a statement over the course

10 of two days in August of 1996 to the investigators for

11 the Prosecution; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. How long did you spend with the Prosecutors

14 going over your testimony over the last -- that you've

15 given over the last two days, sir?

16 A. I arrived this Monday, and I had a meeting, I

17 think Tuesday, with the Prosecutor's office. And then

18 I have been waiting for coming in court.

19 Q. As I understand it, you were actually in

20 Central Bosnia from April the 2nd to June the 28th,

21 1993. Correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. With a holiday back in Denmark

24 from May the 19th to June the 1st of 1993?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7607

1 Q. So ten weeks is the total time that you spent

2 in Central Bosnia, sir?

3 A. Maybe.

4 Q. All right. Isn't it true, sir, that it was

5 completely normal for you to see burned houses in every

6 village in Central Bosnia when you were there?

7 A. It was.

8 Q. Isn't it true also that in your personal

9 view, essentially the legal institutions had broken

10 down completely? The central government wasn't

11 functioning in any realistic way, was it?

12 A. No. [Indiscernible] ... work in the military

13 way.

14 Q. The civil police, in your opinion, were

15 virtually ineffective, weren't they?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. People were getting robbed or shot routinely,

18 weren't they, on both sides?

19 A. Both sides, yes.

20 Q. And in fact, you found the area embroiled in

21 a general state of social, ethnic, and political

22 anarchy and chaos, didn't you?

23 A. Something like that, yes.

24 Q. And in fact, sir, it was absolutely routine

25 and standard for both sides to try to pin the blame for

Page 7608

1 events or incidents upon each other; isn't that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes. And that was our job too, to do the

4 fact-finding, to see -- to find the truth.

5 Q. Right. But it was a standard explanation

6 from both sides, when confronted with a particular

7 unpleasant event, that there were uncontrolled elements

8 within the armed forces that were responsible for that;

9 isn't that right?

10 A. They were known using that excuse, yes.

11 Q. Yes. Now, you actually received a briefing

12 in connection with your duties as a European Community

13 Monitoring Mission monitor; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You were briefed that the commander of the

16 3rd Corps in Zenica was General Enver Hadzihasanovic;

17 right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you met him a number of times?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. At his headquarters in Zenica?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. His opposite number, you were briefed, on the

24 HVO side, was Colonel Tihomir Blaskic; right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7609

1 Q. You met Colonel Blaskic, I believe, about 10

2 or 15 times during your sojourn in Central Bosnia?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You were briefed, I believe you testified,

5 that the main Bosnian Croat political leader was

6 Mr. Kordic. Could you just let the Trial Chamber know

7 who you were briefed was the main Muslim political

8 leader in Central Bosnia?

9 A. I can remember that the -- we were discussing

10 matters concerning Muslims in Central Bosnia. We were

11 discussing it with the vice-president -- I cannot

12 remember his name just now. I know his name, but I

13 cannot remember it, sitting here. Maybe you can help

14 me.

15 Q. Well, if you do, you do, and if you don't,

16 you don't. Were you briefed who the Muslim political

17 leader in Central Bosnia was?

18 JUDGE MAY: Well, the first question is, was

19 he briefed that there was such a political leader?

20 A. Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MAY: You were? But you don't remember

22 his name?

23 A. No.

24 JUDGE MAY: Very well.


Page 7610

1 Q. You were also briefed, I believe, sir, and if

2 you turn to the ECMM briefing document which has been

3 marked Z495, and it's dated February the 25th in the

4 chronological package that I've given to you, just turn

5 to the document that is dated February the 25th, 1993.

6 If you would turn to page 6 --

7 JUDGE MAY: Whereabouts are we in the bundle,

8 please?

9 MR. SAYERS: There is a series of documents,

10 Your Honour, which are arranged chronologically.

11 They've all been separately stapled, and I'm referring

12 to the ECMM briefing summary. If you just undo the

13 bundle, you will see it, for February the 25th, 1993.

14 JUDGE MAY: Is it the third, "Introduction

15 Brief for New ECM Mission Monitors," number 3?

16 MR. SAYERS: Yes.

17 Q. Specifically I would like to address your

18 attention to page 6 of this document.

19 Is it true that you were briefed that the

20 army commanded by General Sefer Halilovic was 50.000 to

21 60.000 strong?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you told in your briefing that the army

24 had become much more organised and better equipped

25 during the past six months?

Page 7611

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when I refer to "the army," of course,

3 I'm referring to the forces under the command of

4 General Sefer Halilovic, the ABiH; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Were you instructed that the

7 military organisation of the ABiH was that they had

8 been divided -- the forces had been divided into five

9 separate corps, with the 3rd Corps headquartered in

10 Zenica?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And you were also instructed that there was a

13 new formation of the Muslim forces army which accepts

14 on Islamic soldiers from Bosnia and abroad and was

15 assessed at about 2.000 strong; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Now, did you understand that the

18 Croats constituted a minority of about 17 per cent to

19 18 per cent of the total population of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21 A. Say again?

22 Q. Did you understand that the Croats only

23 constituted about 17 to 18 per cent of the total

24 population in Bosnia-Herzegovina? I'm not asking

25 questions about that document --

Page 7612

1 A. [Indiscernible] I'm sorry. That confused

2 me.

3 Q. That's all right. My fault.

4 A. I cannot remember the --

5 Q. Very well. Is it your understanding,

6 however, that the Bosnian Croats were in a significant

7 minority by comparison to the overall population of the

8 country?

9 A. No.

10 Q. It was not? All right.

11 Would it be fair to say --

12 A. Sorry, not in the specific area where I was

13 working. Are you speaking of the whole of Bosnia?

14 Q. Yes.

15 A. Then you're right.

16 Q. Yes.

17 Now, would it be fair to say that you were

18 shot at fairly frequently by both sides?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. In fact, it was extremely dangerous to move

21 around or to try to move around from one locality to

22 another, wasn't it?

23 A. It was.

24 Q. During your work in the Joint Humanitarian

25 Commission which you've described, isn't it true that

Page 7613

1 one of your colleagues, Mr. Zarko Malenica, was shot to

2 death by a sniper as he was travelling from Busovaca to

3 Vitez?

4 A. Yes. He and a colleague went into an ambush,

5 and they were --

6 Q. Ambushed by Muslim forces; correct?

7 A. We don't know, but they were ambushed.

8 Q. But they were Croats; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Mr. Malenica and his colleague, Mr. Mravak?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And people being shot to death by snipers on

13 both sides, unfortunately, was simply a fact of life in

14 Central Bosnia, wasn't it?

15 A. It was.

16 Q. With respect to your time in Vitez, it would

17 be fair to say, sir, that you were actually based in

18 Zenica?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And throughout your time there, that was a

21 Muslim-dominated city, controlled --

22 A. Yes it was.

23 Q. All right. And in fact, isn't it true to say

24 that the HVO military forces in Zenica were expunged on

25 April the 18th, and that the headquarters of the Jure

Page 7614

1 Francetic Brigade was basically captured by the ABiH?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. And as I understand it, sir, you spent a

4 grand total of five to six nights in Vitez during your

5 ten-week tour in Central Bosnia?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And one of those nights just happened to be a

8 night that's of considerable interest to the Trial

9 Chamber, the night of April 15th to the 16th.

10 Just a few questions on your knowledge of

11 Bosnian Croat political institutions, and if you don't

12 know, just tell me, and I'll move on quickly. Do you

13 know what the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna is?

14 A. I have -- it's difficult for me to remember,

15 because there was a lot of change [indiscernible] the

16 government. I cannot recall it all.

17 Q. Fair enough. At the time that you were

18 present in Central Bosnia, we've seen several documents

19 that make a reference to the president of the HVO,

20 Dr. Jadranko Prlic, one of them being Exhibit Z757, and

21 I would just like you to turn to that, if you would.

22 JUDGE MAY: This is one of the Prosecution

23 exhibits, is it?

24 MR. SAYERS: Yes, it is indeed,

25 Mr. President.

Page 7615

1 JUDGE MAY: 757?

2 MR. SAYERS: 757, and I am specifically

3 referring to page 3.

4 A. I don't have the document here.

5 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness have the

6 document: 757, Z757.


8 Q. Very well, Major. If you would just turn to

9 the third page.

10 The station chief, Mr. Andersen, refers to a

11 meeting between the ECMM and a Dr. Ganic, who is the

12 vice-president of Bosnia-Herzegovina, along with

13 Dr. Prlic, who is the HVO president, and apparently

14 this resulted in an agreement at the political level?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you ever meet Mr. Prlic, or Dr. Prlic?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you ever speak to him on the telephone?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you know anything about him at all?

21 A. No.

22 Q. All right.

23 A. Not that I can recall.

24 Q. That's fine. If you take a look at the

25 bottom of page 2 and the top of page 3, there's a

Page 7616

1 reference to a meeting which had been interrupted by an

2 HVO Minister of Defence claiming that a large-scale

3 ABiH offensive was on the way on the 18th of April, I

4 believe. Do you know who that gentleman might have

5 been, the HVO Minister of Defence?

6 A. No. I was not present at the meeting, and I

7 can't remember all the names.

8 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber whether or not

9 Mr. Kordic ever held a position in the HVO?

10 JUDGE MAY: Major, that is a question -- this

11 isn't a memory test.

12 A. No.

13 JUDGE MAY: So if you can't remember, just

14 say so, or if you simply don't know, just say so.

15 A. I can remember that during his own

16 presentation to me, I was told that he was a

17 vice-president of the HDZ. I can remember that he

18 mentioned that he had some other -- what would you call

19 it -- jobs as well. We knew that he was a political

20 leader in Central Bosnia, and that -- I think his

21 superior was Mr. Boban.


23 Q. Very well.

24 A. That's what I can remember.

25 Q. Did you ever learn of the existence of the

Page 7617

1 Minister of Defence of the Republic of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mr. Bozo Rajic?

3 A. I cannot recall the name.

4 Q. All right. The Trial Chamber has heard some

5 evidence about an order that was supposedly issued by

6 this gentleman obliging the ABiH forces in

7 Croat-designated cantons under the Vance-Owen Plan to

8 submit themselves to the HVO.

9 MR. SAYERS: I wonder if the witness might be

10 shown Prosecution Exhibit 390,2, which was Brigadier

11 General Cordy-Simpson's document, for the Court's

12 information.

13 Q. What I'm interested in, Major, are the two

14 attachments to this document.

15 JUDGE MAY: You'll be shown it, Major.

16 390.2; it's a Prosecution document.


18 Q. Major, I'm afraid it's not in -- or maybe it

19 is -- oh, it is, yes; I'm sorry. The date of it is

20 January the 24th, 1993.

21 JUDGE MAY: Could we find out what documents

22 the witness has? This is a Prosecution Exhibit --

23 MR. SAYERS: Yes.

24 JUDGE MAY: -- 390.2, and I would guess the

25 Registrar has it.

Page 7618

1 MR. SAYERS: I think that's correct, Your

2 Honour.

3 Q. Thank you, Major. Specifically I'm looking

4 at the two documents that are attached to this special

5 assessment, I think it's called, entitled "Croat

6 Intentions for Provinces 3, 8, and 10." The first one

7 is, or appears to be, an order of some sort that was

8 issued in Mostar on January the 15th, 1993. Do you see

9 that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And this is issued by the headquarters of the

12 HVO. Then the next document is issued by the Ministry

13 of Defence in Sarajevo, three days later, the Ministry

14 of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you see that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. As I understand it, the order is that,

17 number 1, it says: "All units of the Croatian Defence

18 Council which are in this moment settled in provinces

19 1, 5, and 9, declared as Muslim provinces, in

20 accordance with the Geneva Agreements, are to be placed

21 under the higher command of the BH army headquarters."

22 Was that consistent with your understanding?

23 A. Can I have your question again, sir?

24 Q. Yes. Was it your understanding that in

25 provinces 1, 5, and 9, the HVO forces were to be placed

Page 7619

1 under the command of the ABiH, and that the mirror

2 image of that arrangement was to occur in provinces 3,

3 8, and 10, as you can see from paragraph 2 of this

4 order?

5 A. Yes, but I haven't seen this document before

6 I saw it in court.

7 Q. So you are saying that the first time that

8 you've seen this entire Prosecution exhibit was in

9 court yesterday?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. Thank you. Let me move on.

12 A. Maybe I saw it in Bosnia, but I cannot

13 remember it. It's six years ago.


15 Q. Turning to the military and political

16 hierarchy in two towns in Central Bosnia with which you

17 had some acquaintance; first of all, in Vitez: Do I

18 understand that this was the headquarters of the

19 commander of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, Colonel

20 Blaskic?

21 A. Yes. He had his office at the Hotel Vitez.

22 Q. It was the headquarters of a gentleman that

23 you've identified as brigade commander of the Viteska

24 Brigade, Mr. Cerkez, who is represented by the

25 gentleman to the left of me?

Page 7620

1 A. As far as I can remember, he had his

2 headquarters in Vitez, but not at Hotel Vitez but at

3 the Vitez cinema.

4 Q. Do you know who the president of the HVO

5 government was in Vitez? If you don't, that's fine,

6 we'll move on.

7 A. No.

8 Q. All right. Let's move to Busovaca. The

9 commander of the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade was

10 commander Dusko Grubesic; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And he reported directly to Colonel Blaskic;

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Who in turn reported directly to General

16 Petkovic in --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel, please,

18 slow down?

19 A. Yes, he did.


21 Q. I apologise for speaking quickly, Major, but

22 I'm trying to get through with this today, if

23 possible.

24 In your diary, on April 5th, you record a

25 meeting with the president of the HVO civilian

Page 7621

1 government, Mr. Zoran Maric. Do you remember that?

2 A. What date?

3 Q. April 5th, I believe. Page 4 of your diary.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In fact, that was a productive meeting, in

6 your view, wasn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. "The meeting went very well, with him, beyond

9 all expectations," you've recorded.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you thought that substantial progress had

12 been made in persuading the Croats and the Muslims to

13 make arrangements to live together in the town, didn't

14 you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. You've given some testimony about

17 your views of the Warsaw Pact military organisation. I

18 won't touch upon that other than to say this: As I

19 understand it, you have an organisation of the army at

20 the corps level, then at the brigade level, and then at

21 the battalion level, and then at the company level; is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. At the corps level, you have about what,

25 10.000 soldiers?

Page 7622

1 A. All depends on what kind of corps it is.

2 Q. Do you know how many soldiers were under the

3 command of the 3rd Corps in Zenica?

4 A. Maybe 10.000 or 12.000.

5 Q. Ten to twelve thousand.

6 A. I cannot recall exactly. I think it's in

7 that area.

8 Q. Now, do you know how many HVO soldiers there

9 were in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone?

10 A. I cannot recall.

11 Q. It's true, Major, isn't it, that the military

12 organisation of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone was

13 an administrative headquarters with Colonel Blaskic at

14 the top, and then each one of the military formations

15 was organised as essentially a municipality-based

16 brigade?

17 A. Yes, more or less.

18 Q. For example, you would have the Frankopan

19 Brigade in the town of Travnik; correct? Yes?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. The Frankopan Brigade ceased to exist in the

22 middle of June 1993 as a result of the Muslims

23 defeating the HVO in that area; isn't that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Another brigade that we've seen is the

Page 7623

1 Bobovac Brigade, that was mentioned on Exhibit 579,

2 based in Vares. Did you know that the -- this is

3 beyond your time in Central Bosnia, but did you know

4 that the Vares brigade ceased to exist as a result of

5 the military defeat in Vares on November the 2nd of

6 1993?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You've identified, in the last page of the

9 exhibits which I've placed before the Trial Chamber and

10 you, a document that was marked as Exhibit Z863, which

11 you were given by a member of the HVO; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. This shows the organisation of the brigades?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You were never given a similar document by

16 the Muslim forces, were you?

17 A. It was not handed over to me but to one of my

18 colleagues, but I kept this.

19 Q. But you were never given a similar

20 organisational document by the Muslim forces, were you?

21 A. ECMM was, I think, but I was only, at that

22 day, handed that document.

23 Q. All right. There's a reference to the

24 Frankopan Brigade and the Travnik Brigade in this

25 document, sir, that was effective as of what, May of

Page 7624

1 1993, May the 14th, I believe?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Those two brigades actually ceased to exist

4 in mid-June, did they not?

5 A. See, I cannot remember when they were.

6 Q. All right. That's fine. Looking further

7 down, the Kotromanic Brigade under the command of

8 Mr. Neven Maric, that was eliminated from Kakanj as a

9 result of a military defeat inflicted upon HVO by the

10 ABiH on June the 13th, 1993, would you agree with that?

11 A. I remember there was fighting in the Kakanj

12 area in that period, yes.

13 Q. As a result, the Kotromanic Brigade ceased to

14 exist, didn't it?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. I think that you've previously stated that

17 the Jure Francetic Brigade in Zenica, which you say is

18 not present any more, and the 2nd Zenica Brigade is not

19 present any more. What you mean by that is that

20 they've been eliminated as a result of a military

21 defeat; right?

22 A. No.

23 Q. No?

24 A. It was a result of this agreement you showed

25 me before, I think.

Page 7625

1 Q. All right. Now, you would agree that

2 training, military training, is crucial to the

3 existence of a disciplined professional army; isn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Without that training, frankly, you don't

6 really have soldiers, you have merely a disorganised

7 militia, don't you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And if you take a civilian and give him

10 camouflage clothing, a rifle, and a shoulder patch,

11 with no regular training, you don't really have a

12 soldier, do you?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Are you aware of any training at all in

15 International Law and the Geneva Conventions that was

16 ever given to HVO conscripts in 1992, 1993, or 1994?

17 A. [No audible response]

18 MR. SAYERS: This might be a good time, Your

19 Honour.

20 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn for 20 minutes.

21 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

22 --- On resuming at 11.29 a.m.

23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, we are delayed

24 because we've been trying to work out the scheduling

25 programme for the next few weeks. There are some

Page 7626

1 changes because other cases, which we will need to

2 discuss when we -- or just before the adjournment. I

3 gather there are some matters which Mr. Nice wants to

4 raise at that time.

5 I think, inevitably, since you didn't start

6 quite late, you're going to find it difficult to get

7 through by ten to one. Then, of course, there is the

8 cross-examination on behalf of Mr. Cerkez, which is

9 bound to take some time. I think the upshot is that

10 the Major is not going to finish today, I'm afraid, and

11 will have to come back at a time convenient to

12 himself. No doubt the Prosecution can give some

13 thought to that.

14 The upshot is that we have to finish at about

15 five to one. If you would find a convenient time at

16 about a quarter to one, we'll adjourn then.

17 Do not feel, because of what I said

18 yesterday, that you have to talk very quickly. If

19 you'd like to take your time, no doubt everybody would

20 benefit, but we appreciate the efforts that you've made

21 so far.

22 MR. SAYERS: Thank you very much,

23 Mr. President, and my sincerest apologies to the

24 translators and stenographers.

25 Q. Major, you tend to speak a little softly, and

Page 7627

1 I noted that the answer to the last question that I

2 asked you before the break was not actually

3 transcribed.

4 The question was, I believe, just to

5 paraphrase it: Are you aware of any training in

6 International Law or the Geneva Conventions that was

7 given to any HVO conscripts of any kind in 1992, 1993,

8 or 1994, and I believe your answer was, "No." Is that

9 correct?

10 A. That's correct. And I can only speak for

11 1990 -- 1993.

12 Q. Just for the record, I referred to a document

13 dated February the 25th, 1993, and I stated that it had

14 been marked with a Prosecution Exhibit number, Z495.

15 Apparently it has been marked with that number but it

16 is not in evidence yet. I'm told by the registrar that

17 it needs a Defence number.

18 THE REGISTRAR: The document could be

19 numbered D76/1.


21 Q. Proceeding along, Major, in your opinion, the

22 HVO was a well-organised military force with a clearly

23 identifiable chain of command organised into so-called

24 Operative Zones, with its commander in chief as

25 Brigadier Milivoj Petkovic; correct?

Page 7628

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Brigadier Petkovic was in charge of all the

3 Operative Zones; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. In other words, the Operative Zone commanders

6 reported directly to him?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. In order to have an effective, efficient

9 military force, you need to have an absolute adherence

10 to a clearly defined chain of command. You'd agree

11 with that, wouldn't you?

12 A. Yes, I would.

13 Q. In your view the HVO had one, right?

14 A. As we can see, there was a clear chain of

15 command from Petkovic to Blaskic, and from Blaskic to

16 his brigade commanders.

17 Q. It's true, is it not, that Brigadier Petkovic

18 himself attended some high-level meetings of the

19 Busovaca Joint Commission and the joint operative

20 command that succeeded it in Vitez?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the same is true of Colonel Blaskic; from

23 time to time he would attend those meetings?

24 A. Yes, did he.

25 Q. And you've already stated that

Page 7629

1 Colonel Blaskic's second in command, Franjo Nakic, was

2 routinely in attendance at these meetings.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. It's true, is it not, that Mr. Kordic never

5 attended a single one of those meetings?

6 A. No -- yes, that's true. That's true.

7 Q. All right. You would agree that within his

8 Operative Zone in Central Bosnia, Colonel Blaskic had

9 no superior; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Indeed, that was the feeling not only of

12 yourself, that was the judgement, professional military

13 judgement, not only of you but also your colleagues

14 such as Erik Friis-Pedersen, for example; correct?

15 A. Yes. And we're discussing a military or --

16 Q. You would agree that -- I'm sorry.

17 A. He didn't -- he had the command, the military

18 command, and he doesn't have -- in the Central Bosnia,

19 Colonel Blaskic didn't have a military superior.

20 Q. You would agree that, in fact, he was the

21 decision-maker and the man in command and control of

22 his area, wouldn't you?

23 A. Yes, for the military.

24 Q. All right. In fact, in your statement, on

25 page 11, three years ago, you said that Colonel Blaskic

Page 7630

1 was not only in complete control of HVO forces, but

2 also Bosnian Croat authorities, didn't you?

3 A. If I can see a copy of my statement ...

4 Q. Well, let me just read it to you: "This

5 implements, from my point of view as a military career

6 officer" -- and I'm reading from page 3 -- "that

7 Colonel Blaskic was basically in control of all the HVO

8 troops and Bosnian Croat authorities in his area of

9 responsibility, which was Central Bosnia."

10 And you agree with that today, don't you?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Yes.

13 You gave some testimony concerning the

14 so-called HOS. Just one question on that: There was

15 no doubt that those troops were under Colonel Blaskic's

16 command, was there?

17 A. Not on our point of view.

18 Q. Right.

19 A. Because it was a military unit, and Colonel

20 Blaskic was controlling the military units.

21 Q. Right, and that included the HOS?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That was the opinion, once again, of the

24 ECMM; right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7631

1 Q. And you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. I was going to ask you some

4 questions in connection with the testimony that you

5 gave about the removal of Stjepan Tuka, but you can't

6 remember who told you that, can you?

7 A. Just that it was another ECMM team, but I

8 cannot remember which and who were the individuals that

9 told me that.

10 Q. All right. Now, you gave some testimony to

11 the effect that in your view, the ABiH was somehow a

12 beaten army at the end of April of 1993; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes. It seems to me, when I started in

15 Central Bosnia, that BiH were the weak part in the

16 conflict at that time.

17 Q. Let me just read you testimony from a witness

18 who has testified in this case, a British lieutenant

19 colonel by the name of Watters, on July 30th, 1999,

20 page 5857 of the transcript, and I would just like to

21 ask you if you agree with this.

22 "Q Now, on April the 19th, just to

23 summarise, I believe that the Croats

24 were faced with a very vigorous and

25 successful Muslim counter-attack.

Page 7632

1 A I'm sorry, the date?

2 Q April the 19th.

3 A Yes."

4 And then the question was asked: "The Croats

5 found themselves forced into a dangerous defensive

6 position. They were actually facing military defeat.

7 Would you agree with that?" And the answer was "Yes."

8 Would you agree with that?

9 A. I think that this was Mr. -- what's he

10 called -- Watters' opinion. I'm not totally sure that

11 I have the same opinion.

12 Q. All right. Very good.

13 Let me ask you to be shown by the usher, if I

14 may, Exhibit Z720, which is a document dated April the

15 18th, 1993.

16 MR. SAYERS: Could I just ask the registrar

17 to verify that that is Exhibit Z720.

18 Q. It looks like you have only one page there,

19 Major -- two? All right; very good.

20 If you turn to the second page, right after

21 item F, which says, "International media attention

22 should be brought to Zenica/Vitez area," paragraph 4

23 says, "Fighting has stopped, virtually, due to the

24 superiority of the BiH army in the city."

25 The comment goes on to observe that the HVO,

Page 7633

1 slash -- I guess that's "HOS HQ" -- in Zenica has been

2 captured by BiH forces and allegedly has been looted.

3 Was that the informed military judgement of the ECMM

4 military monitors on the 18th of April, 1993?

5 A. Yes, and I can remember that the HVO

6 headquarters in Zenica, they gave over their weapons to

7 BiH. There was no fighting between the BiH and HVO

8 during this --

9 Q. It was just an en masse surrender?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Yes; all right. Now, you were aware that the

12 ABiH had regional headquarters located both to the

13 north and to the south of the town of Vitez in April of

14 1993; is that correct?

15 A. I can remember they had a few. I cannot

16 remember where they were.

17 Q. All right, let's see if I can jog your

18 memory. Isn't it true that the headquarters of the

19 325th Mountain Brigade was located in the town of

20 Kruscica, to the southeast of Vitez?

21 A. It could be. I cannot remember the spot.

22 But if I had mentioned that in one of my reports, I

23 should know.

24 Q. Do you recall that the ABiH armed forces also

25 had battalion headquarters in the villages of Poculica,

Page 7634

1 Preocica, to the northeast of Vitez, and also in Stari

2 Vitez, the old part of the town of Vitez?

3 A. I can remember in the old town of Vitez. I

4 cannot remember the other ones.

5 Q. Wouldn't it be fair to say that the HVO was

6 never able to capture any one of these headquarters at

7 any time while you were present in Central Bosnia, or

8 as far as you're aware, at any time after that?

9 A. I think they would -- they were able to do

10 that, and did.

11 Q. Did they?

12 A. Yes, I think they did.

13 Q. The next -- oh, you gave some testimony about

14 the ABiH not having artillery, in your opinion. Is

15 that correct? Do you remember that?

16 A. They had artillery, but we had no information

17 on any positions in that area.

18 Q. Could I just ask you to take a look at one of

19 the documents in the package that I've given to you

20 dated May the 13th, 1993.

21 A. And who issued the document?

22 Q. The ECMM.

23 A. ECMM?

24 JUDGE MAY: Where will we find it,

25 Mr. Sayers?

Page 7635

1 MR. SAYERS: It should be chronologically

2 arranged, Your Honour. May the 13th, 1993.

3 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

4 MR. SAYERS: It's approximately -- relatively

5 close to the end of the package, actually.

6 Q. In this document that's dated May the 13th,

7 1993 --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- and by the way, that's actually a document

10 you prepared, is it not?

11 A. It is.

12 Q. With Stavros Kinigopoulos?

13 A. Yes, a Greek monitor.

14 Q. Do you know if he is an artillery expert?

15 A. I can remember he was a helicopter pilot, and

16 maybe he was an artillery observer.

17 Q. In item 8C, it's true, is it not, that one

18 122-millimetre howitzer, a D30 model belonging to the

19 BiH, was observed pointed in the direction of Vitez?

20 Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. So the BiH army did have available to it

23 120-millimetre ordnance; isn't that correct?

24 A. Yes, at that time. But when we were

25 discussing April, we didn't have any positions known in

Page 7636

1 April. This is May.

2 Q. None that you knew of anyway; isn't that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, what's the maximum range of a D30

6 howitzer? Do you know?

7 A. 10 to 15 kilometres; it all depends on which

8 charts you are using.

9 Q. Let me put it to you. Isn't the maximum

10 range of D30J 122-millimetre howitzer 17.300 metres?

11 A. It could be longer.

12 Q. Right. On the subject of Mujahedin, by

13 Mujahedin, you mean Muslim fundamentalist extremists, I

14 take it?

15 A. Yes, from the Middle East.

16 Q. All right. In connection with the kidnapping

17 of commander Zivko Totic, you actually witnessed the

18 scene of that incident, did you not?

19 A. Not just after it had taken place, but I was

20 there later on the same day.

21 Q. Have you seen the videotaped footage of that

22 scene of carnage --

23 A. Yes, Mr. Hayman showed me a videotape showing

24 the incident.

25 Q. All right. My colleagues quite correctly

Page 7637

1 point out to me that we need an exhibit number for the

2 May the 13th document.


4 THE REGISTRAR: The document will have the

5 number D77/1.


7 Q. Now, you were told by general Hadzihasanovic

8 that he was not able to control these so-called

9 Mujahedins; isn't that correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. It's also true that you, yourself, performed

12 an investigation along with your ECMM colleagues as to

13 who was responsible for the assassination of the

14 officers and the civilian --

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. -- on April the 15th? Were you ever able to

17 find out would was responsible for that, sir?

18 A. Not during our investigations. Then we had

19 this letter from the Mujahedins that told us that they

20 were responsible for the kidnapping, and they had five

21 officers plus, I think, two more.

22 Q. All right. When you refer to the letter that

23 was delivered to you, if you just turn to -- I think

24 you --

25 A. I have it in front of me now.

Page 7638

1 Q. You have it; all right?

2 A. I recall the letter.

3 Q. This was a letter that, for the record, has

4 previously been marked as D117/1,21, and it is actually

5 referred to in a document that I would like to

6 distribute right now and have separately marked, which

7 the Prosecution, I think, withdrew.

8 While you're looking at that document, Major,

9 let me just correct one item on the record here. I

10 must have misspoken. The document that I was referring

11 to should be Exhibit D17/1,21 and not D117.

12 Turning your attention to this document,

13 which I would like to have marked as the next Defence

14 exhibit, on page 2, there is a reference to the

15 incident that you just described at about 6.15 on April

16 the 18th, two men arrived in uniform, one with a

17 Palestinian Keffiyeh and handed over the letter that

18 we've just referred to. Is that consonant with your

19 recollection?

20 A. Yes.

21 JUDGE MAY: Get the exhibit number. Have the

22 Registry got a number for this one?

23 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be

24 marked D78/1.


Page 7639

1 Q. Now, sir, it's true, is it not, that the car

2 that was used by these two Mujahedin was later spotted

3 in the parking lot belonging to the 7th Muslim Brigade,

4 at the same time that the 7th Muslim Brigade was

5 claiming to you that it exercised no ability to control

6 the Mujahedin?

7 A. Yes, that's correct, as far as I can recall.

8 Q. I think that this entire episode is

9 summarised in a document included in the package, dated

10 May the 19th, 1993, and entitled "Special and Final

11 Report, Exchange of Detained Arabian Foreigners and HVO

12 Hostages". That should be three documents from the

13 rear or four documents from the rear of the package,

14 Major.

15 A. Yes, I have it.

16 Q. You also describe the circumstances under

17 which the prisoners were released, in your diary?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You describe in your diary the circumstances

20 of that release as explosive, and apparently there were

21 at least a hundred masked and heavily armed soldiers,

22 probably from the 7th Muslim Brigade, who also had at

23 their disposal a three-barrel, 20-millimetre machine

24 gun, along with anti-tank and anti-aircraft,

25 shoulder-launched missiles, who proceeded to fire their

Page 7640

1 weapons into the air after the police forces had

2 disappeared. That's accurate, is it not?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. And you saw that. You were there personally,

5 weren't you?

6 A. Yes, because at that time I came back from

7 Vitez after I had handed over the four other officers.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. And UNPROFOR were there as well.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. And I can remember that they pushed, with one

12 of their tanks, this truck with anti-aircraft.

13 Q. It was a highly charged atmosphere, wouldn't

14 you agree with that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. If someone were to say to you that there were

17 only 12 people there and it was a peaceful exchange,

18 you wouldn't agree with that at all, would you, sir?

19 A. The exchange itself was peaceful, but all the

20 people around it were -- because they were happy

21 because all their Muslim brothers had been released.

22 So as they're doing in the Middle East, they were

23 firing their weapons in the air.

24 Q. Right.

25 A. That was what we could see was a little

Page 7641

1 dangerous or a tense situation.

2 Q. You felt that that was a dangerous situation,

3 an explosive situation, as you put it in your diary;

4 right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Yes.

7 THE REGISTRAR: The document dated 19 May,

8 1993 will be marked D79/1.


10 Q. The list of people that's attached to this

11 ECMM report, sir, as the last page, do you see it?

12 A. I don't have it in my -- I don't have the

13 document any more.

14 Q. That list was the list that had actually been

15 provided to you some days before by Colonel Blaskic, on

16 April the 23rd, 1993; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Just for the Trial Chamber's information, the

19 April 23rd, 1993 letter is actually attached to this

20 package of exhibits as well.

21 All right. Sir, it's true that throughout

22 your tour through Central Bosnia you never saw any

23 units or troops of the regular Croatian army at any

24 time, did you?

25 A. Sometimes, specifically in the Travnik area,

Page 7642

1 we saw individuals with "HV" on their badge and not

2 "HVO." That indicated that some Croat soldiers could

3 be in the area, but we only saw individuals. We didn't

4 see units.

5 Q. There's no reference in your diary or in your

6 statement or in your previous 300 pages of testimony in

7 the Blaskic case, as far as you can recall, to any such

8 sightings, is there?

9 A. Not that we have seen units from the HV.

10 Q. Or individuals, for that matter, is there?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. All right. Would it be fair to say that you

13 had an extremely low opinion of the ability and

14 effectiveness of the police forces in Central Bosnia on

15 both sides, both Croat institutions and Muslim

16 institutions?

17 A. Most of the policemen we saw were not

18 policemen before the conflict, so they were not

19 properly trained as policemen. So they were not

20 effective as policemen.

21 Q. Your opinion was that they were

22 insufficiently qualified and incredibly incompetent;

23 isn't that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In other words, in your view, they wouldn't

Page 7643

1 be able to carry out any investigations properly, they

2 didn't have the training to do it; right?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. That's symptomatic about the general

5 breakdown of law and order that we previously

6 discussed; correct?

7 A. It could be, but we thought that all the

8 other regular police forces were in the army now,

9 because there should be trained police officers from

10 before the conflict, but, obviously, there was no one

11 now.

12 Q. All right. As we've seen already from the

13 orders that you have previously been shown, the

14 military police units fell directly under the command

15 of Colonel Blaskic; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Let me turn for a few minutes to the

18 Vance-Owen Plan that we have previously discussed.

19 Canton 10 was the so-called Travnicka canton; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. All right. And you stated that canton 10

22 borders on the Republic of Croatia but so do

23 cantons 1 and 2, which were variously, respectively, a

24 Muslim -- or to be a Muslim-governed canton and a

25 Serb-governed canton; correct?

Page 7644

1 A. I have to see the document. I can't remember

2 all the -- because I was only working in 9 and 10.

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. I cannot remember the others.

5 Q. That's fair enough. I'll just show you

6 Exhibit 2574, which has been previously marked by the

7 Prosecution. What I just said is correct, is it not?

8 A. May I have the question again?

9 Q. Yes. Canton 1 was to be a Muslim-governed

10 canton, and that borders the Republic of Croatia;

11 doesn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Canton 2 was to be a Serb-governed canton,

14 and that also borders on the Republic of Croatia;

15 doesn't it?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You previously discussed all the

18 municipalities that were included in canton 10, and

19 those municipalities did not include the municipality

20 of Kiseljak, did they?

21 A. The municipality of Kiseljak was belonging to

22 province number 7.

23 Q. Right. Okay.

24 A. And the same with Kresevo.

25 Q. Yes. It's true that one of your "mission

Page 7645

1 briefs," for lack of a better term, was to -- and I'm

2 reading from the first document in the package that I

3 gave you, which was marked Exhibit Z2575,

4 paragraph 8 -- to promote the Vance-Owen Peace Plan by

5 encouraging all parties to collaborate by attending

6 provincial and municipal meetings and by offering

7 guidance on and interpretation of the plan.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. Did you ever do that with the HVO

10 municipal authorities in any of the municipalities that

11 you visited in April or May or June of 1993?

12 A. Normally when we went out to a municipality

13 and we had -- and if we had a meeting with the mayor

14 there, we were discussing this matter with him.

15 Q. All right. You yourself did not have a lot

16 of faith in the Vance-Owen Plan, did you?

17 A. No.

18 Q. You viewed it as just another in a series of

19 plans that would eventually be replaced probably by

20 another plan, didn't you?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. In fact, in your view, the Vance-Owen Plan

23 actually was responsible for provoking inter-ethnic

24 tensions rather than solving the problem, wasn't it?

25 A. Yes. That's my own personal view. It was

Page 7646

1 not an ECMM view, of course.

2 Q. You never met with Mr. Kordic to discuss this

3 particular plan, did you?

4 A. I didn't, but would I think that Jean

5 Thebault, the Ambassador, maybe, because he was at that

6 level to discuss with the local politicians.

7 Normally, a team didn't go to Mr. Kordic to

8 discuss policy with him. That was up to our Ambassador

9 to do that.

10 Q. So those discussions would have occurred on

11 the highest level, so to speak?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Political level?

14 A. Political level; right.

15 Q. All right. Let me turn for a few seconds to

16 the Busovaca Joint Commission about which you gave some

17 testimony. You understood that this commission had

18 been formed after fighting had broken out in Busovaca

19 in January of 1993; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you saw all of the orders that were

22 signed, A, setting up the commission, and, B,

23 implementing the imperative of the commission; correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And not one of those orders was signed by

Page 7647

1 Mr. Kordic, was it, sir?

2 A. I cannot recall who signed the orders, but I

3 don't think Mr. Kordic signed the orders. I think --

4 Q. Well, if you take a look at the second

5 document that's already been marked as D54/1, we have a

6 number of signatures on the ceasefire agreement of

7 January the 30th, and as you can see, military

8 representatives from the HVO and the ABiH,

9 representatives from the ECMM --

10 A. What document? Can I have it again, because

11 they're not in --

12 Q. Second one in, dated January the 30th.

13 Jeremy Fleming was the representative of the ECMM who

14 actually participated in the establishment of the

15 Busovaca Joint Commission; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Along with Colonel or Lieutenant-Colonel

18 Stewart from the Cheshires; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And representatives of the HVO, the ABiH,

21 UNHCR, and the Red Cross; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. Just so the Trial Chamber has a

24 feel for how this commission developed, when you

25 arrived in Vitez on April the 4th, the Busovaca Joint

Page 7648

1 Commission was something after misnomer, because it was

2 actually sitting in the BritBat compound just outside

3 or to the west of Vitez; isn't that correct?

4 A. Not in the BritBat compound but outside.

5 Q. Right next door to it?

6 A. Next door.

7 Q. Yes. As of April the 22nd, 1993, the

8 so-called Busovaca Joint Commission was renamed the

9 joint operations command; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And basically --

12 A. JOC.

13 Q. -- four separate commands, if you like, were

14 established. One in Travnik; right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. One in Vitez, one in Kiseljak, and one in

17 Vitez -- sorry.

18 A. You mentioned -- you said "Vitez" once.

19 Q. Travnik, Vitez, Kiseljak, and Busovaca. I'm

20 sorry. Correct?

21 A. As far as I can remember, it was sitting in

22 Travnik.

23 Q. The headquarters of the --

24 A. The JOC.

25 Q. Right. The JOC was in Travnik; correct?

Page 7649

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. That's a situation that ceased to exist as of

3 June 13th, 1993, when Travnik was captured by ABiH

4 forces?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Yes. You would agree with me that the

7 Busovaca commission was the most successful and least

8 contentious of all the four local commissions, isn't

9 that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You would also agree, would you not, that

12 both Colonel Blaskic and his deputy, Mr. Nakic, did

13 their best to make the Busovaca Joint Commission work

14 as well as it could?

15 A. I think Mr. Nakic did. I'm not sure that

16 Colonel Blaskic did.

17 Q. Very well. Events preceding the April

18 16th conflict you've described. The first was a

19 flag-raising in Travnik in, I think, April the 8th to

20 the 12th, in that time period, 1993; correct?

21 A. Yes, before Easter.

22 Q. And that flag was actually raised very close

23 to the brigade headquarters of the 7th Muslim Brigade,

24 wasn't it?

25 A. I can't recall, sitting here, where precisely

Page 7650

1 it was raised, but it was raised close to a BiH

2 headquarter.

3 Q. All right. The kidnapping of the four HVO

4 officers, you were actually involved in an

5 investigative commission consisting of representatives

6 of the ECMM, the HVO, and the ABiH, to find out who did

7 it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you never did, did you?

10 A. Find out?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. No, not before the before-mentioned letter.

13 Q. Right. You also described Mr. Merdan's or

14 Colonel Merdan's temporary custody. It's true that you

15 were instructed to get a hold of Colonel Blaskic

16 because he actually was in command of the military

17 police, one of whom had actually been responsible for

18 your detention and Colonel Merdan's as well; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. After awhile, you got in touch with

22 Colonel Blaskic, and would it be fair to say that

23 Colonel Blaskic gave the military police commander an

24 absolute roasting?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7651

1 Q. And he came back tight-lipped and red-faced

2 and immediately released you?

3 A. Yes. And I couldn't see that they were able

4 to handle that case another way.

5 Q. All right. The situation on April the 15th,

6 1993, just south of Busovaca: You were aware, Major,

7 that the ABiH was fully in control of the main supply

8 routes stretching from the village of Kacuni, just a

9 kilometre or two to the south of Busovaca, to

10 Bilalovac; correct?

11 A. I just have to recall in my mind to see the

12 map on my ... yes, they did.

13 Q. And that remained unchanged throughout your

14 tour, didn't it?

15 A. Yes, I think it did.

16 Q. As a result of the main supply routes being

17 cut between Busovaca and Kiseljak, there was very

18 little communication on the HVO side that was feasible

19 between Busovaca and Kiseljak, or between Vitez and

20 Kiseljak, for that matter; wouldn't you agree with

21 that?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Why not?

24 A. We were told by the HVO in Kiseljak that it

25 was possible to go from Kiseljak to Vitez following

Page 7652

1 some roads in the mountain.

2 Q. Some back roads?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. Do you recall that the

5 headquarters of the 333rd Mountain Brigade was located

6 in the town of Kacuni?

7 A. I cannot recall which unit, but there was a

8 unit there.

9 Q. All right. Turning to the events, the actual

10 outbreak of fighting, I wonder if I could just point

11 your attention to two combat reports issued by the 3rd

12 Corps in Zenica, one on April the 15th, one on April

13 the 16th, and they are included in the package of

14 materials that you have.

15 All right, sir, the first document is a

16 regular combat report from the command of the 3rd Corps

17 dated April the 15th, 1993, and I would specifically

18 like to turn your attention to page 3.

19 THE REGISTRAR: This exhibit will have the

20 number D80/1.


22 Q. Is it consistent with your understanding that

23 at about 5.30 on the evening of April the 15th, there

24 was an outbreak of fighting in the area of Putis; that

25 the fighting involved small arms and artillery; and

Page 7653

1 there were casualties reported, at least on the ABiH

2 side?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And that's at 5.30 on the night before or the

5 night before April the 16th, 1993, correct?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. All right.

8 A. It says that HVO were using small arms and

9 artillery.

10 Q. Yes. If you would now turn to the second

11 combat report, on April the 16th, 1993, specifically to

12 page 2, item 3 under the "Lasva Operative Group,"

13 paragraph 2.

14 THE REGISTRAR: This exhibit will have the

15 number D81/1.


17 Q. According to the 3rd Corps command, there

18 were two areas of operations, the first being in the

19 area of Vitez and Kruscica, according to a report by

20 the 325th Mountain Brigade chief of staff, anyway. Do

21 you know who that gentleman was, the chief of staff of

22 the 325th Brigade?

23 A. He was a deputy of the brigade commander. I

24 can't recall his name.

25 Q. That's fine. And the second thing that I

Page 7654

1 want to draw your attention to, if I can, is the

2 comment made by the 3rd Corps command: "The intensity

3 of operations and movement of HVO forces directed

4 towards the forces of the 333rd Mountain Brigade are

5 weak to the point of nonexistence."

6 That was just south of Busovaca; correct,

7 sir?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. Thank you.

10 Now, according to your diary, you drove as

11 fast as you could -- page 6, I'm referring to -- to try

12 to get to Zenica at about 9.30 at night.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And it was dark at that time, wasn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You saw tracer bullets everywhere, did you

17 not?

18 A. Yes, we did. In one -- only in one

19 direction.

20 Q. Right. And a tracer, as I understand it,

21 uses phosphorus?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the phosphorus burns, and that's what

24 makes it visible as it passes through the air?

25 A. Yes. It's easier for the shooter to aim his

Page 7655

1 weapon because he can see the tracers.

2 Q. But the reason that you can see the round is

3 because it actually has phosphorus burning on the rear

4 end of the round; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And when it hits something, it tends to set

7 fire to that item that it hits, because, obviously,

8 you've got burning phosphorus; correct?

9 A. Not necessarily, because it's not burning the

10 whole time; just only in the beginning. But sometimes,

11 if it's very dry, it could happen.

12 Q. When you went to Kiseljak on April the 23rd,

13 it was your opinion that the house fires that you

14 witnessed were caused by incendiary munitions striking

15 those houses, wasn't it?

16 A. I thought that someone had lighted the fire

17 to the houses, because --

18 Q. Pardon?

19 A. We thought that most of the burnt houses had

20 been burned with purpose, and someone had lighted the

21 fire directly at the house. Because if it should be

22 caused by the tracers, there should be a lot of burning

23 grass, and in the surrounding area, as well.

24 Q. Well, did you ever get out of your armoured

25 Mercedes as you were driving past Ahmici at 9.30 at

Page 7656

1 night?

2 A. No, not in Ahmici, but now you are referring

3 to Kiseljak as well.

4 Q. Let's keep our attention focused on Ahmici

5 for just a minute. Did you ever get out of the

6 armoured vehicle that you were driving at 9.30 at

7 night?

8 A. Out of it, no.

9 Q. Did you ever go to Ahmici after April the

10 16th?

11 A. Yes, we did.

12 Q. Let me just read to you, if I may, a passage

13 from the Joint Operations Centre of Vitez Report, daily

14 operational report, April the 23rd, 1993. It says as

15 follows: "It appeared that those burned villages were

16 set on fire mainly by incendiary munitions fired from

17 arti." -- artillery -- "pieces from Kiseljak."

18 Was it your opinion that the fires that you

19 saw in the Kiseljak area were started by incendiary

20 munitions striking the structures?

21 A. Only a minor part of it, I think.

22 Q. That's -- no commentary was made that only a

23 minor part of the house fires that were seen in

24 Kiseljak were caused by being struck by incendiary

25 munitions --

Page 7657

1 A. I haven't seen the report are you referring

2 to.

3 Q. All right. Let's take a look at it. It's

4 April the 23rd, 1993.

5 JUDGE MAY: This is in your bundle, is it,

6 Mr. Sayers?

7 MR. SAYERS: Yes, it is, Your Honour.

8 It's actually April the 24th, 1993; I'm

9 sorry.

10 April the 23rd. I'm sorry. Yeah, it is.

11 THE REGISTRAR: This document, dated 23rd

12 April, 1993, will be marked D82/1.


14 Q. You do agree with me that the ECMM Joint

15 Operations Centre report for that date says that it

16 appeared that "The burned villages were set on fire

17 mainly by incendiary munitions fired from artillery

18 pieces from Kiseljak." Correct?

19 A. What paragraph are you referring to?

20 Q. Paragraph 7 on page 2 of the report.

21 A. "People met"?

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. Yes. And here they are referring to some of

24 the villages; not all of them.

25 Q. Right. And one of the villages mentioned is

Page 7658

1 Svinjarevo. Isn't it true that in Svinjarevo, many

2 Croat houses had been burned as well? And in fact,

3 that's actually reported on a daily report from

4 Team Z-1 dated April 30th, 1993?

5 A. I can't remember if I mentioned something in

6 my report. I cannot remember this -- if I can see my

7 report, I will be able to --

8 Q. Absolutely.

9 A. -- see if it's true or not.

10 I can remember that I was at -- do I have all

11 those documents in mine?

12 Q. I think you do, but they seem to have gotten

13 out of order somehow. But anyway, I'm showing you a

14 document that's dated April the 30th, 1993. This was

15 actually drafted by you and your colleague,

16 Mr. Friis-Pedersen; correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And under the heading for Svinjarevo, it says

19 all Muslim and many Croat houses were burned; right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And in fact, just stepping back a little,

22 Major, you record in your diary, right after driving

23 past Ahmici -- and I'm reading from page 7 of your

24 diary, as follows: "The Croats set fire to Muslim

25 houses and villages and began the ethnic cleansing,

Page 7659

1 which was then to be avenged by the Muslims, who did

2 the same thing to the Croats."

3 A. What date, please? Because I don't think you

4 have the same --

5 Q. It's --

6 A. I have the Danish edition, the original.

7 Q. All right. It's just towards the end of the

8 April the 6th to the 18th entry.

9 A. Okay. That's page 5 in mine. That's fine.

10 Q. Rather than me reading out what may or may

11 not be an accurate or an inaccurate translation, could

12 you just read that passage into the -- well, actually,

13 you can't.

14 A. I could do that in Danish, but I don't think

15 it's ...

16 Q. All right. Would you agree, then, that your

17 diary says as follows: "The Croats set fire to Muslim

18 houses and villages and began the ethnic cleansing,

19 which was then to be avenged by the Muslims, who did

20 the same thing to the Croats. Neither side showed any

21 respect for human life. They killed without restraint

22 and butchered the bodies. We lived through things many

23 people will not believe we saw."

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Now, would you agree that in the time period,

Page 7660

1 April the 15th until approximately the end of the

2 month, there was no fighting, that you ever heard of,

3 in Gornji Vakuf?

4 A. I wasn't in Gornji Vakuf, so I cannot tell

5 you anything about Gornji Vakuf. I cannot remember the

6 reports from that area.

7 Q. Do you remember any reports of any fighting

8 in Bugojno?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Or let me just read out -- Donji Vakuf,

11 Kresevo, Fojnica, Novi Travnik; any fighting in those

12 areas?

13 A. No, not as far as I can recall.

14 Q. Did you ever hear of any fighting breaking

15 out in any of the municipalities that constituted the

16 area designated as canton number 3 under the Vance-Owen

17 Plan, which was to the north of the country, sir?

18 A. North?

19 Q. The Posavina area. You don't remember?

20 A. It was out of my area of responsibility, so I

21 cannot answer you there.

22 Q. Right. You don't remember any reports of

23 fighting breaking out in canton number 8, the adjoining

24 canton to number 10, can you?

25 A. I think it's not fair to ask me questions

Page 7661

1 that I'm not -- I'm not able to answer that.

2 Q. If you don't know, Major, I'll move on.

3 That's fine.

4 You have given testimony to the effect that

5 in your judgement, the military operations in Ahmici

6 were part of a coordinated and planned military

7 operation. But you never saw any evidence of a

8 military buildup in the days before April the 16th, did

9 you?

10 A. No, because at that time, I was not in the

11 Vitez area, because we were investigating the case with

12 the four kidnapped officers. Therefore we used most of

13 our days in the Travnik/Novi Travnik/Bugojno area.

14 Q. And Ahmici is located just about a kilometre

15 or a kilometre and a half from the BritBat base at Nova

16 Bila, isn't it?

17 A. No.

18 Q. No? How far away is it?

19 A. More than one kilometre.

20 Q. Two kilometres, maybe?

21 A. Do we have a map? Then we can be sure.

22 Q. I don't think that there is any dispute about

23 that. You'll agree that it was close?

24 A. It was --

25 Q. The two -- the BritBat compound was close to

Page 7662

1 the village of Ahmici; right?

2 A. Not that close. Not that close.

3 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's a matter which we

4 can resolve on a map.

5 MR. SAYERS: Yes.

6 Q. Did you, yourself, ever speak to any of the

7 people that were involved in the Ahmici hostilities,

8 the fighting in the village?

9 A. Not except for the HVO soldier that stopped

10 us in the checkpoint where we were not allowed to go

11 into Ahmici. After the incident, other ECMM officials

12 made a lot of interviews to the inhabitants -- the

13 former inhabitants from Ahmici. We have a lot of

14 eyewitnesses from what had happened in that area.

15 Q. All right. Were you aware that the ECMM, as

16 a result of those interviews, had actually identified a

17 list, a fairly short list, of people who were allegedly

18 involved in the atrocities that occurred in Ahmici?

19 No? All right.

20 Is it your military judgement that Ahmici was

21 completely undefended militarily?

22 A. We didn't see any BiH activity in that area,

23 and as I mentioned yesterday, I went there a few days

24 before the village was destroyed, and I saw no evidence

25 of any sort of military activity.

Page 7663

1 Q. All right. Let me just read you an extract

2 from a statement made by Mr. Fuad Berbic to the state

3 commission for gathering facts on war crimes.

4 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we're going to be

5 assisted by this. This is the account of another

6 witness. This witness has given the evidence which he

7 has.

8 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President. I

9 will move smartly on.

10 Q. Would it be fair to say that the fighting

11 that you witnessed in mid-April of 1993, although

12 extremely bitter, was restricted to only a few places

13 actually in the vicinity of Vitez?

14 A. Yes, in the Vitez and the Travnik area.

15 Q. All right. I'd like to ask you a few

16 questions in connection with the way in which the

17 ceasefire agreements were arranged and who participated

18 in the negotiations that ultimately led to the

19 ceasefire both on the military side of things and on

20 the political side of things.

21 First, were you aware that Mr. Izetbegovic

22 and Mr. Boban had issued instruction or concluded

23 agreement on the 18th of April, 1993, one provision of

24 which was that all units were to stop fighting

25 immediately? That's April the 18th, 1993, an agreement

Page 7664

1 apparently reached in Zagreb.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You understood that President Izetbegovic was

4 the president of the Republic of Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that Mr. Boban was the president of the

8 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, if you did

9 understand that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. All right. I wonder if we might have an

12 exhibit number for that, please.

13 THE REGISTRAR: It will be marked D83/1.


15 Q. Very well. The next order, chronologically,

16 is an order issued by the chief of the headquarters,

17 Brigadier Milivoj Petkovic, and it is issued to,

18 amongst other commands, the Central Bosnia Operative

19 Zone.

20 A. Yes.

21 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be

22 marked D84/1.


24 Q. This order was issued pursuant to the

25 agreement reached between Mr. Boban and Mr. Izetbegovic

Page 7665

1 on April the 18th, which we have just reviewed;

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, and the date is the same day.

4 Q. Yes. Then the next level is the Central

5 Bosnia operative command -- Operative Zone, rather,

6 command, and the order for ceasefire was issued by

7 Colonel Blaskic on April the 20th, 1993; correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. That was pursuant to orders received from

10 Colonel Blaskic's superior officer, Brigadier Petkovic;

11 am I correct?

12 A. Yes. Its dated two days after.

13 Q. Yes.

14 MR. SAYERS: I wonder if we could have an

15 exhibit number for that, please.

16 THE REGISTRAR: It will be marked D85/1.


18 Q. As of April the 20th, 1993, therefore, the

19 competent forces had been ordered to cease hostilities;

20 correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And a formal ceasefire agreement then had to

23 be worked out. I would like to turn your attention to

24 the next document dated April the 20th, 1993. This has

25 already been marked as Exhibit D24/1.

Page 7666

1 This agreement was signed by the two military

2 commanders in chief, Brigadier Petkovic for one side on

3 the HVO, and General Halilovic for the ABiH on the

4 other side; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Supervised and countersigned by General

7 Philippe Morillon for the United Nations, and your

8 superior, Jean-Pierre Thebault, for the ECMM?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. If I am correct, the next document,

11 chronologically, is a formal agreement dated April

12 the 25th, 1993, signed by Mr. Boban and

13 Mr. Izetbegovic, previously marked D27/1.

14 MR. SAYERS: That needs to be shown to the

15 witness, D27/1.

16 A. I don't have it here.


18 Q. I believe that's a -- I'm responsible for,

19 that and I apologise, Major, but we have an extra copy

20 for you if you need it.

21 You will agree, sir, that there's an

22 agreement reached between Mr. Izetbegovic and Mr. Boban

23 on the 25th of April, 1993, and as part of that

24 agreement, the last page includes a document in

25 memorialising agreements relating to the command

Page 7667

1 structure for the BiH army and the HVO; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. You can see from paragraph 1 of that

4 agreement that the BiH army and the HVO would retain

5 their separate identities and command structures;

6 correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that the two forces were directed to form

9 a joint command, the two commanders of which would be

10 General Halilovic and General Petkovic?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So it would be fair to say then that you had

13 the political authorities of the republic or the ABiH

14 and the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO

15 negotiating on the one hand, and the military

16 commanders also reaching agreements and signing them on

17 the other; correct?

18 A. Yes. Also to this agreement, the joint

19 operation centre was manned in Novi Travnik.

20 Q. Do you mean Travnik or Novi Travnik?

21 A. Travnik.

22 Q. Travnik. Yes. All right.

23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, if you're moving on

24 to another topic, that may be a convenient time to

25 adjourn.

Page 7668

1 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour. Just so the

2 Trial Chamber knows, I would anticipate -- I think, if

3 I may say, I made pretty good progress with this

4 witness, and I would not think that I would be more

5 than another 45 minutes with him.

6 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Mr. Kovacic?

7 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours, it is now

8 difficult to tell, because you understand my colleague

9 took some questions which I have. I was trying to see,

10 but I guess that I could be finished -- I don't know --

11 in one hour, a little bit more perhaps.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. So the effect of it is that

13 there are two hours of testimony remaining.

14 Major, I'm sorry we have not been able to

15 conclude your evidence. We shall have to ask you to

16 come back to do so. As I said, don't speak to anybody

17 about your evidence, but, of course, you can speak to

18 the Prosecution about finding a convenient time in the

19 next two months, if that's possible, for you to come

20 back.

21 A. Could be. And maybe next week if it's --

22 JUDGE MAY: Could you be here next week? I

23 was going on to deal with the arrangements for next

24 week, so I might as well say what they are.

25 The difficulty about next week is that we're

Page 7669

1 not going to be sitting on Monday. We've got another

2 case which we've got to do. But we will be sitting on

3 Tuesday afternoon, subject to finishing the other

4 case. There is another matter. But I would hope that

5 we could fit two hours in on Tuesday afternoon, without

6 guaranteeing it. The alternative, we will be sitting

7 on Wednesday and Thursday afternoons.

8 Now, perhaps you can discuss with the

9 Prosecution as to what the most convenient time for you

10 is. If that's not convenient, then we can find some

11 other time.

12 But as far as you're concerned, there's no

13 reason to detain the witness, is there? No one's got

14 anything for him?

15 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE MAY: As I say, could you, please, come

17 back. If you'd like to discuss these matters with the

18 Prosecution, we'll find a convenient moment. It's

19 possible we might be able to finish you on Tuesday or

20 Wednesday. Thank you very much. If you'd like to go

21 now, and we'll see you again.

22 A. Thank you, Your Honour.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, as I was saying, the

25 arrangements for the next two weeks are not wholly

Page 7670

1 satisfactory. That is because the Trial Chamber has to

2 attend to other matters, and I shall be sitting in the

3 morning in another case in another Trial Chamber. On

4 Monday we have to deal with another case in the

5 afternoon in this Trial Chamber, possibly going into

6 Tuesday, but we would hope to do something that

7 afternoon, but we can't guarantee that. So Wednesday

8 and Thursday in the afternoon we'll certainly be

9 sitting.

10 The following week, the 4th to the 8th of

11 October, we shall be sitting on two days only. One day

12 has had to be removed because the other members of the

13 Trial Chamber are involved in another case that day.

14 The Trial Chamber will sit on Monday

15 afternoon and Wednesday afternoon, but we can't sit on

16 the Tuesday afternoon. I hope that's of assistance.

17 Before I finish, let me say this. It would

18 be helpful if the Registry could let us have copies of

19 the documents produced in cross-examination to this

20 witness.

21 Mr. Sayers, what I have in mind is we have

22 your bundle, but, of course, the documents are

23 gradually being produced, and as they are produced,

24 they then become exhibits. At the moment, the bundle

25 is not an exhibit. It's better to do it as you produce

Page 7671

1 it, and in that way we'll keep track.

2 But I would be grateful if the Registry could

3 let us have copies as soon as possible, please. Thank

4 you. There's no need to include the war diary or any

5 other bulky documents, just the single pages.

6 Yes. We've got five minutes.

7 MR. NICE: Only a couple of things. There

8 are some outstanding issues which we all generally put

9 back for them to be used as filler arguments, if we

10 ever run out of witnesses. Of course, with -- for

11 example, a week with two half days, not consecutive,

12 there's quite a chance we will not be able to find

13 witnesses to fill it, for example, that week.

14 But in relation to outstanding issues,

15 there's just one topic I want to be -- one matter I

16 want to be quite sure of. We all remember that at the

17 beginning, the Chamber made it clear that, save in

18 exceptional circumstances and on application, disputes

19 weren't to be resolved by written motions but were to

20 be resolved in court.

21 The Chamber will recall that in relation to

22 the dead and dying topic, the matter has been opened

23 and slightly argued, and a skeleton argument was lodged

24 by us and there's now been a skeleton argument lodged

25 by the defendants, but as I understand it -- and I

Page 7672

1 don't think there's any doubt about this but I just

2 wanted to be sure -- the matter is still for argument

3 at some future date, because we are proceeding on the

4 basis of oral argument and not on the basis of written

5 submissions. It may be --

6 JUDGE MAY: That is correct.

7 MR. NICE: Good. I'm grateful for that.

8 Thank you.

9 There's also been an application -- no, let

10 me stick with the dead and dying topic. There's no

11 particular urgency for early resolution of that as an

12 issue. I hope you'll trust us to plan witnesses and to

13 cooperate with the Defence in finding a suitable target

14 time, and then we'll perhaps propose that target time

15 to use as a time when we might argue that particular

16 issue.

17 But there's been another issue raised in

18 relation to Ribicic, who is the constitutional expert

19 served in substitution from Pine [phoen], from another

20 witness who gave evidence in Blaskic, and there's been

21 a long history in organising a substitute.

22 A skeleton argument has been severed, and

23 again I'm working on the basis that this is for

24 ultimate resolution by oral argument in court, and I'm

25 not going to necessarily serve a skeleton argument. I

Page 7673

1 will, if everybody wants me to, but once we go down the

2 line of serving always skeleton arguments, we are back

3 to the position of effectively having a paper practice,

4 which is what the Chamber didn't want.

5 It has seemed to me in the past that there

6 are some arguments which are assisted by a skeleton

7 argument served either the night before or at court, to

8 reflect the argument that's going to be deployed, and

9 there are some much shorter matters where skeletons are

10 not necessary and may just simply clutter up the

11 Chamber's no doubt already overloaded desks.

12 So in relation to Ribicic, there's been a

13 skeleton argument served. That matter should be argued

14 sooner rather than later, although I'm very loathe to

15 lose any witness time next week, because we've got one

16 witness already waiting over the weekend, a short

17 witness. Rather than send him back, the decision was

18 made to keep him over the weekend. We had to send

19 another witness back this week, and we've also got the

20 outstanding witness whose evidence may be capable of

21 being taken next week as well. So I'd rather not deal

22 with that next week, unless a gap appears.

23 But that's it really. If the Chamber wants

24 us to serve a skeleton in this case, we will;

25 otherwise, we can argue the matter. It's a fairly

Page 7674

1 straightforward matter, in due course.

2 JUDGE MAY: No, we don't want to start.

3 At some stage we'd better have -- I don't

4 think we have copies of the various statements which

5 are in issue, and something of what Ribicic is going to

6 say, or it's proposed that he should say.

7 MR. NICE: Of course.

8 I record that the defendants are concerned

9 about the notice they get of particular witnesses. As

10 I've explained to them -- and I hope this explanation

11 will be accepted by the Court -- we have, of course,

12 gone a great deal further than simply to provide

13 witnesses on a rolling two-week basis, because we've

14 provided, so far as we can, a complete schedule of

15 witnesses for a couple of months, or more. What we do

16 is we try and stick to that list, so that that gives my

17 friends an opportunity to plan generally. But of

18 course, witnesses regularly change their commitments;

19 and as the Court timetable itself changes, or as

20 witnesses consume more or less time than forecast, it

21 simply becomes impossible to call witnesses in that

22 order, and we have to do our best. I'm notifying the

23 Defence, at the earliest opportunity, of every change

24 that we make in our planning.

25 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Unless there are any

Page 7675

1 other matters, Tuesday, at a time to be notified -- at

2 the moment, 2.30 -- but it may be that we shan't be

3 able to sit that afternoon. We will notify you as

4 early as we possibly can. Thank you.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

6 12.55 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

7 the 28th day of September, 1999, at

8 2.30 p.m.