Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7839

1 Monday, 4th October, 1999

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.33 p.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your

6 Honours. Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor

7 versus Dario Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we have a visitor in

9 the courtroom today, Judge Rant from the United

10 Kingdom. He is the Judge Advocate General, senior

11 judge presiding over courts marshal in the United

12 Kingdom. The Judge sits in court by agreement of the

13 parties, and I take it that there is no objection.

14 MR. NICE: No objection, and we welcome him.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. What is the position now

16 about the witnesses?

17 MR. NICE: It was intended to call, on this

18 Monday afternoon and possibly Wednesday afternoon, two

19 witnesses, the first of whom was a particularly

20 confidential witness whose details were only disclosed

21 a fortnight ago. That witness and the other witness

22 were due to travel together, I think, on Saturday. In

23 the event, the confidential witness did not travel, was

24 not available to travel, but at the moment I don't know

25 precisely why not. Probably it's the case that he

Page 7840

1 was beset by fears and anxieties.

2 There are a number of people in that area

3 like him who are compelled to return to homes from

4 which they were forced to go, and by reason of that

5 return, they find themselves back amongst people of a

6 different ethnic background from them, and therefore

7 they find themselves more anxious, perhaps, than they

8 had been where they had been living meanwhile. So

9 that's probably the reason, but I can say no more about

10 it than that.

11 He hasn't, to my knowledge, been spoken to

12 directly since he failed to travel on Saturday,

13 although, of course, steps are in hand to ensure that

14 he should be spoken to.

15 I should have asked for private session and

16 I'm not sure that I did, but I haven't named anyone.

17 JUDGE MAY: You have a witness here?

18 MR. NICE: Yes. I'll need to deal with that

19 witness first in private session as well.

20 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

21 MR. NICE: May we have private session for

22 the remainder of what I'm saying about the confidential

23 witness and the other witness.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

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Page 7847

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

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20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 MR. NICE:

23 Q. In April 1992, at the lodge you've already

24 mentioned, did soldiers arrive?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7848

1 Q. How many, and by whom were they led?

2 A. There were about 25 or 26, I don't know the

3 exact number, and they were led by Cerkez. He was the

4 commander of these troops. That's what he was

5 addressed as.

6 Q. Had you known Cerkez before the conflict?

7 A. Yes, from his birth.

8 Q. Without using any names that will identify

9 you, what did Cerkez say to you about what was

10 happening?

11 A. They came in the morning, around 8.00, and he

12 first approached me and told me as follows: "Lady,

13 there's no more work. There will be no more business

14 here. This is now our facility. We have come here to

15 carry out exercises, and we will stay here, I don't

16 know how long, until we are given orders to move on,

17 and you cannot work here any longer. You have to

18 leave, that is, you can stay but you cannot do any

19 business any longer. You cannot have any guests."

20 Q. What arms did Cerkez or the soldiers have

21 with them?

22 A. They had rifles. Cerkez had a pistol, that

23 is, at the time when they entered the motel, and the

24 others also had weapons. There were three or maybe

25 four, I saw about three trucks, and they had mortars on

Page 7849

1 them and other weapons which they were going to use for

2 their exercises.

3 Q. Did you ask what you should do about your

4 loss of a living? If so, what were you told?

5 A. I asked Mr. Cerkez who was going to

6 compensate me for all the effort. I had just cleaned

7 up; I had just brought in new supplies, had them

8 delivered on a truck for my work. He said, "Lady,

9 don't worry. Whoever wins will pay you," and I said,

10 "What kind of a victory is to be expected here? There

11 is no fighting here," and he said, "You will hear about

12 it in due time. You don't need to know now."

13 Q. Eventually, did you get some money? If so,

14 from whom?

15 A. After several months, I looked up Mr. -- the

16 chief, Mr. Ivica Santic. Of course, he had sent these

17 troops there to the mountain lodge, Zabrdze, and he

18 said that they would compensate me, but at one point,

19 he gave me a one-time assistance, around 70 German

20 marks.

21 Q. Was that in some currency other than German

22 marks?

23 A. No. These were not German marks. They were

24 Bosnian dinars. At that time, they were also known as

25 the red coupons. But the value was 70 German marks,

Page 7850

1 the equivalence of 70 German marks.

2 Q. Did you do as Cerkez instructed and leave the

3 lodge, returning to your then home?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Was that in --

6 A. Yes, I asked -- yes, it was in the apartment

7 blocks. I said, "What should I use to -- how am I

8 going to get back there? Is there a truck going back

9 to Vitez?" And he said that the registration plate was

10 KZ. The driver was very nice to me, and he took me and

11 my son, because I was up there with him, he brought me

12 home, and after that, I had no further business and

13 contact with that facility, and I don't know what

14 happened there.

15 Q. It's not necessary or right for you to

16 identify yourself, even by your address, so be careful

17 in the answers you give, but is it right that your home

18 at that stage was a flat in a block of flats which was

19 effectively on the main road from Vitez to Busovaca,

20 somewhere within Dubravica?

21 A. Donja Dubravica, yes.

22 Q. Having lost your employment in April 1992,

23 can you remember the precise date in April that Cerkez

24 called?

25 A. I think that that was April 3rd, 1992.

Page 7851

1 Q. Did you, between then and March of 1993, have

2 any other job or not?

3 A. No. I had lost my job, as did my two sons.

4 Because I had envisaged employing both of my sons there

5 because this was my livelihood, my sons were

6 unemployed, and I wanted them to work there too.

7 Q. Dealing with that same period, April 1992 to

8 March 1993, which leading figures, leading local

9 figures did you see on the television from time to

10 time? First of all, did you ever see anything of

11 Cerkez himself?

12 A. No. With a group of people who held press

13 conferences, who held meetings, these were open

14 conferences which were broadcast on television, that

15 is, certain reports were on television, but I did not

16 see a direct proceedings, a live proceedings. But I

17 saw when they had -- well, when they held the joint

18 meetings with the Muslims.

19 Q. Who were the Croat leaders that you saw on

20 the television from time to time in that period?

21 A. There were several of them. I know quite

22 well Anto Valenta and Pero Skopljak, Ivica Santic and

23 Mario Cerkez, Blaskic, and there were an additional two

24 whose names I forgot. I don't know now. I forgot

25 their names. They left the area soon thereafter; I

Page 7852

1 don't know where they went, but I saw them there. But

2 until the 15th of April, 1993, that is, on that last

3 evening, on the 15th of April, at 7.10, that they had a

4 meeting, I don't know with whom, and they said that

5 there was no agreement with Muslims --

6 Q. I'm going to stop you there in order that we

7 can deal with things in chronological order.

8 Did you at this time know by sight or in any

9 other way the man Dario Kordic?

10 A. I knew him from television. I had no direct

11 contact. Perhaps I saw him two or three times maybe in

12 front of the restaurant in Kruscica, from a distance of

13 about 20 to 30 metres.

14 Q. I'm going to come to those sightings in a few

15 minutes, but before I do, to keep in chronological

16 order, paragraph 10, was a man called Samir Trako

17 killed on a day in May 1992? Just yes or no.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How soon after his death did you learn of the

20 death?

21 A. The next day.

22 Q. Who told you?

23 A. Somebody called up my brother on the

24 telephone and told him, and sometime later people from

25 the Territorial Defence came and said that Samir had

Page 7853

1 been killed in the hotel that night.

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 Q. What was the physical condition of these two

14 men when you saw them a few days after the apparent

15 killing?

16 A. They were in a very difficult situation.

17 They had to go to hospital. I don't know how long they

18 stayed in hospital, but they had to be hospitalised for

19 them to have a medical examination, because they were

20 beaten up, their bodies were all black and blue.

21 Q. Just "Yes" or "No" to this question. Did

22 either of these men claim to have been an eyewitness to

23 the killing?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Which one, or was it both?

Page 7854

1 A. Both of them went out together. They were

2 taken out of the basement after the torture and they

3 went out on the stairs, and Samir was killed at that

4 particular point.

5 Q. Thank you. Which one of these told you what

6 had happened or was it both of them?

7 A. Both of them, both of them told me, but Senad

8 Petak more because I was with him more.

9 Q. Just tell us, please --

10 JUDGE MAY: Just before you get that far,

11 this is going to be the repetition of what somebody

12 told somebody else, one of whom is potentially coming

13 here?

14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, yes. As we're not in

15 private session, we must speak carefully about that,

16 but nothing is known, of course, for certain about

17 witness availability.

18 As to this topic, its admissibility has been

19 ruled on earlier, and at that earlier stage, evidence

20 was given from a witness of what he was told of the

21 circumstances. This evidence comes directly from the

22 mouth of an eyewitness. As with all evidence of this

23 quality, its value is, in our respectful submission --

24 or its evaluation is for later, but it would, in our

25 respectful submission, be quite wrong to think of

Page 7855

1 excluding it at this stage, and it would be appropriate

2 to hear from the witness, what she has been told.

3 JUDGE MAY: Eyewitness through this witness?

4 MR. NICE: That's right, yes.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

7 MR. NICE:

8 Q. Will you tell us, please, what you were told

9 by Senad Petak of what had happened in relation to

10 Samir Trako?

11 A. Are you asking me?

12 Q. Yes, please. I'm so sorry, I wasn't looking

13 at you. Very rude of me.

14 A. Well, on the basis of what was said, and it

15 was the topic of the day at that particular moment,

16 everybody asked, "Do you know?" Well, when they were

17 taken out, Suad Trako and (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 Q. Who killed him?

22 A. At that particular moment, quite simply

23 that's what we heard, it was said that that man killed

24 him. What's his name? He was also from Kruscica. I

25 knew his surname, but I've forgotten it.

Page 7856

1 Q. Yes. But what did --

2 A. But afterwards, when he was taken into

3 custody and taken away, he was taken to prison, he made

4 a statement -- not to me, but that's what people

5 said -- that he said, "I didn't kill Trako, but you'll

6 hear who did."

7 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, now we are dealing

8 with different hearsay, I think. I object to such

9 question.

10 JUDGE MAY: Let's try and get what the point

11 is.

12 MR. NICE: Yes.

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 A. He -- as he saw that just Cerkez was there

16 and that other young man, however, he assessed that

17 Cerkez killed Samir.

18 Q. Now, the other man you've been speaking

19 about --

20 JUDGE MAY: Let's try and clear this up. Can

21 you help us, please, Witness R?

22 A. Yes.

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7857

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 A. Well, it is -- it was his idea, his thought.

4 He thought that it was correct, and, well, I don't

5 know, (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted) and not that

9 other young man. Vukadinovic was his name. It's come

10 to me now, that Vukadinovic had not shot Samir.

11 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours --

12 JUDGE MAY: The evidence has been given.

13 What weight we give to it is entirely a matter for us,

14 if any.

15 MR. KOVACIC: Correct. Your Honours, I just

16 wanted to notice, since you mentioned that perhaps the

17 translation was not correct, I would like to assure you

18 that it was very precise and correct, because I was

19 following both English and Croatian.

20 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you.

21 MR. NICE:

22 Q. Witness R, did Suad Trako say anything about

23 the events that had happened? Did he give an account

24 of how Samir Trako had been killed?

25 A. Suad?

Page 7858

1 Q. Yes.

2 A. Suad was also so beaten up that he couldn't

3 even see out of his eyes. His face was all massacred

4 and, quite simply, he wasn't able to see where he was

5 going or what he was looking at. That was the state he

6 was in. He was so beaten up and massacred, his face

7 and his eyes were all swollen and he couldn't even

8 think about it when he went out. But he had such a

9 great -- had put forth such a great deal of effort to

10 look at Samir when Samir lay there, lay down there.

11 Q. Thank you. These two, did they tell you what

12 had happened to them after the killing of Trako, Samir

13 Trako, and before they returned to the area where you

14 were living, or wherever it was that you met them?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What happened to them?

17 A. Well, based on stories told, people came to

18 the house to see what had happened and they told their

19 story, that they were in the beer-drinking place, that

20 they were captured by some people in this beer-drinking

21 place, and they were beaten up. And afterwards, when

22 they were taken out, that's what they said, they were

23 taken to Kruscica by some sort of car to the forest up

24 there or wood, and from the cave they had bags on their

25 faces and they were thrown down there from the cave, so

Page 7859

1 that the Croats thought they were already dead.

2 However, other people turned up, or these

3 people came back to see what had happened to them.

4 They had come to, they had regained consciousness, and

5 they were taken somewhere. I don't know where, but

6 they were imprisoned two days after that and nobody

7 knew what had happened to them.

8 However, with the assistance of their

9 relatives, they were found, and they were brought back

10 in the state of health that they were in.

11 Q. Witness R, I'm now going to turn to other

12 events that you saw, between April '92 and March '93,

13 from your flat or in the area of your flat.

14 Was there, near to your flat, a coffee house

15 called Kruscica which had once belonged to a Muslim

16 named Faruk Zukic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did he lose his possession or occupation of

19 that coffee house?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Was that coffee house taken from him, and if

22 so, by whom?

23 A. Yes, it was taken away from him, because at

24 the time Vlado Krizanac, called Willy [as interpreted],

25 was the boss. He was the main one.

Page 7860

1 Q. When you say he was the boss, was he a

2 Muslim, or Croat, or what?

3 A. He was a Croat.

4 Q. His brothers' first names were, please? Can

5 you tell us?

6 A. There was Stjepan and there was -- I've

7 forgotten, but there were three brothers, and this

8 particular one, Vlado, was the head person in this

9 Kruscica coffee house where meetings were held. All

10 the army went in there, the HVO and the Jokers, as they

11 were called. They would drink there, and HOS at the

12 beginning too.

13 Q. Did you have a view from your flat or from

14 the area around your flat of the inside of the coffee

15 house or only of the garden and the entrance area to

16 the coffee house?

17 A. We had a table and chairs, and we sat there

18 all the time throughout the day, and this was 20 metres

19 away from our table to the Kruscica coffee house. We

20 could see everything because there was just a small

21 hedge between the coffee house and our yard, where we

22 sat. And so we could see everything. We could see the

23 comings and goings. Personally, we could recognise the

24 people who came and went.

25 Q. In the course of that period of time, '92 to

Page 7861

1 '93, did you see anything of any leading figures at or

2 near the coffee house? First Blaskic, did you see him

3 at all?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Once or more than once?

6 A. Yes, perhaps twice I saw him; once by a

7 car -- Andrija Livancic was seeing to his tyre. We

8 were sitting -- a group of women were sitting in the

9 yard. And another time he came in front of the coffee

10 house. He talked to Vlado and then left.

11 Q. It should be explained that there's a tyre

12 repair garage nearby as well; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, in the same yard, the coffee house and

14 the tyre repair shop. It was a premises for both these

15 establishments.

16 Q. You've already told us that Kordic was there

17 a few times. When he arrived, what did he do? Did he

18 go into the coffee house or did he stay outside?

19 A. By an old apple tree, I saw him standing

20 there once, and he was talking to Vlado about

21 something, and there was some other men there too. And

22 on one occasion, he went inside and came out quickly

23 again. I don't know why he went inside, whether to get

24 some information or a drink, I don't know, but that is

25 where the information service, so to speak, was where

Page 7862

1 they discussed things and everything, in the coffee

2 house.

3 Q. Was the coffee house some distance back from

4 the main road, reached by a little lane or road of its

5 own?

6 A. No. It was a broad area from the road

7 towards the facility. There was a large parking space,

8 perhaps 15 to 20 metres. Not more than that, though.

9 That was the distance from the road to the facility.

10 It was a parking space.

11 Q. Staying with Dario Kordic, paragraph 21, was

12 there an incident involving a soldier called Nuk, son

13 of Nikola, that you can recall?

14 A. [No audible response]

15 Q. What happened?

16 A. Yes, I remember. There were a lot of people

17 out on the road for security purposes, and we were

18 standing around by the kiosk next to the road, and Nuk,

19 son of Nikola, I don't know his name, I know his

20 father's name, he was armed, he had a helmet and flack

21 jacket, and there were a lot of troops there, and they

22 didn't let any civilians stand there next to the

23 kiosk. And when we asked -- when people asked why they

24 were doing this, he said, "The main person is passing,

25 Kordic is passing, and nobody must be present, nobody

Page 7863

1 must be here, because he has to pass by calmly and

2 safely." And I left, my husband stayed on, and he

3 said, "There's no reason, I'm not armed." Well Nuk

4 said, "You better clear off or I'll shoot." And my

5 husband went home. He was terribly pale and frightened

6 because this man had already cocked his rifle at him

7 and said that if he didn't leave, he would shoot. And,

8 of course, my husband just turned around and went

9 home.

10 There's about 20 metres from the road to my

11 home.

12 Q. Did you see anything of Kordic passing by, if

13 he did?

14 A. No, no. We couldn't see because we were made

15 to go back into the house.

16 Q. Was that the only time you were aware of

17 Kordic apparently passing on the main road, or was

18 there any other occasion or occasions?

19 A. No. He passed by twice with all the security

20 around. I was at my brother's in Novaci, and some of

21 the army was there. Some were standing about, others

22 were sitting down in a sort of a trench, and one of the

23 men said to me, "Hurry up, go home, because no passage

24 is allowed here because Colonel Kordic is about to pass

25 by from Busovaca to Vitez."

Page 7864

1 Q. Were you ever aware of in whose company he

2 may be travelling or not?

3 A. No. Well, yes, he was escorted by the HVO,

4 if that's what you mean.

5 Q. Returning to named people who visited this

6 coffee house, did you know the name or the man Darko

7 Kraljevic?

8 A. Of course. A terrible name for us.

9 Q. Did he use that coffee house? If so, with

10 what frequency, and how was he addressed?

11 A. Of course. Of course. Yes. He always wore

12 black, a black uniform, and his soldiers wore black

13 uniforms too, and it said Jokeri on it, the Jokers, and

14 they had a great metal "U" insignia, and it said

15 Vitezovi on the other. So Vitezovi, and Jokeri, with a

16 skull emblem on the sleeve, and others had this skull

17 sign on their backs, depending on the kind of uniform

18 they were wearing. But they had black shirts, black

19 trousers -- everything was black; it all looked

20 terrible -- black caps, and they had this emblem, the

21 "U" sign on their caps, and they said that they were

22 proud to be Ustashas, that they were the army of

23 Pavelic, and that they were accepted by the HVO.

24 Q. The next name I want you to deal with is Jozo

25 Buha.

Page 7865

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. What about him? Was he in the area? Did he

3 use the cafe?

4 A. Yes. Yes, every day. Jozo Buha, a year

5 prior to that, from 1991 perhaps, he would make lists

6 of the Muslim inhabitants. If the number would change,

7 the number of Muslims, he would draw up a new list to

8 know who was where, and when I asked him why he did

9 that, he said, "Well, for security reasons, for

10 evacuation, if the Chetniks, for example, attacked,"

11 and I said -- well, first of all, he made a list of

12 Croats for Croatia, and then he said, "Well, I'm going

13 to write your name down too," and I said, "Well, my

14 name is not down on the list," and he said, "Well, it's

15 not necessary because we know you."

16 So quite simply, he would draw up this list

17 with information of where the Muslims lived because it

18 was easy to reach the Muslim houses. Jozo Buha did

19 this on behalf of the local community of Donja

20 Dubravica, and he was very proud to say that it was

21 Pavelic's army, that they would be victorious, that

22 they would win over the Muslims, and so on.

23 Q. Let's turn to the 15th of April of 1993.

24 You'd already started to tell us, I think, about a

25 television broadcast. Just explain what it was you

Page 7866

1 saw.

2 A. Yes. Well, it was like this: I went to my

3 brother's house, my brothers were there and my

4 relations, the people that come from my native village,

5 and I went to them on the eve --

6 Q. Don't identify the village by name. It's in

7 the summary of your evidence.

8 A. No, no. The village has 150 houses.

9 Q. All right. Well, it's a matter for you, but

10 you don't have to name it. You went to your brother's

11 house --

12 A. Very well. Yes.

13 Q. Carry on.

14 A. My brother came from the market, it was

15 growing dusk, and he said, "The Muslims are being

16 arrested and taken away to some facilities, to schools,

17 I don't know where else," and I said, "Well, do I dare

18 go home?" He said, "Well, I don't advise it. It would

19 be better for you to stay."

20 So I called my husband up and asked him what

21 the situation was like, whether he was able to see

22 anything. He said, "I can see nothing. I'm in the

23 house," and I said, "Well, my brother told me that

24 Muslims were being taken away, group by group. Some

25 had been taken to the school in Donja Dubravica."

Page 7867

1 However, at 7.00 and 10.00 in the evening,

2 there was the Croatian news, and at the beginning,

3 Mr. Kordic said the following, he said: "We negotiated

4 with the Muslims and we're not going to do that anymore

5 because there can be no more negotiations with them.

6 We are declaring war and we have to fight a war with

7 them." Those were the words of Mr. Kordic, if I can

8 say "mister" for him. And --

9 Q. Was there anything else that Kordic said in

10 the television interview that you want to tell us

11 about?

12 A. The news bulletin lasted for only ten

13 minutes. It was between 7.00 and 7.10 p.m. I don't

14 know what -- why, we asked ourselves why? Why a war

15 with the Muslims? We didn't know why. We weren't

16 armed; we had no weapons; we didn't even think of a war

17 for the Croats to declare war with us. We were

18 surprised because we were up there on the line together

19 fighting another enemy. However, that's what they

20 said.

21 In the morning, at 6.30, I stayed with my

22 brother, I wasn't able to go, but the next morning, at

23 6.30, I was woken up by the shell. I went downstairs;

24 I woke the others up. This was at 5.30 in the morning,

25 5.30, and it was the beginning of the shooting at that

Page 7868

1 place where we were.

2 Q. Taking this comparatively shortly, and I

3 shall lead, unless I'm invited not to, from paragraph

4 28, did you, with about 180 villagers, find yourself

5 rounded up by HVO soldiers, some of whom you could

6 recognise, indeed, some of them being the brothers Miro

7 Kulic and Zoran Kulic and Miro Karin from Rijeka? You

8 can just say yes to that if that's correct.

9 A. Kulic, yes.

10 Q. Were you taken to a shelter where you had to

11 sleep on a concrete floor, but you weren't otherwise

12 maltreated at that stage?

13 A. At that time, we weren't mistreated because

14 it was the beginning. We hid. But when they came in

15 two days later, that was the 18th, and when they went

16 to the settlement, they put us up -- they quite simply

17 said that we had to go to that shelter. The house

18 was -- well, yes, it's not important. It was a

19 shelter; it doesn't matter who it belonged to.

20 However, we were there on the concrete floor, of

21 course, because the house was under construction. It

22 hadn't been completed.

23 Q. I'm going to cut you short in order to save

24 time and, I hope, make it easy for you to go back

25 swiftly home.

Page 7869

1 On the 19th of April, did Kulic, Miro Kulic,

2 come to the shelter, saying that he had orders from his

3 commander, Karlo Grabovac, to pick up the people?

4 A. No, but to call the people and to make a list

5 of them, of all the inhabitants living there, so that

6 they had the exact number of people, so that they knew

7 how many of us lived there, and Ekrem had to do this.

8 That man was named Ekrem; he had to do that. He had to

9 draw up a list of all of us. The list was handed over

10 and we went back to the shelter.

11 The next morning, one again, Miro Kulic came

12 to fetch us. He had been given orders from Karlo

13 Grabovac to take us there because he had received

14 orders from Kraljevic, Darko Kraljevic, to take us all

15 to the Perina Caira field.

16 Do you want me to continue?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Well, we went out. We complained and asked

19 why we were being taken there, but there was nothing to

20 be done. Miro went first, carrying a white flag in

21 front of us. We all went in a group, nobody dared not

22 go, and when we got to the exit of the settlement,

23 towards the automobile association and the Dubravica

24 elementary school, Jozo Buha shot at us from a hill,

25 those who were in the column. Luckily, he didn't hit

Page 7870

1 anybody. Miro just shouted, "Jozo, don't shoot. I'm

2 with them and don't shoot. They have to go to the

3 destination" he had been told.

4 He took us to the meadow and we waited and

5 waited there, and Kraljevic came up, Darko Kraljevic

6 got there later on with another five -- allegedly, they

7 were killers and had to finish the job. However --

8 Q. Were the men separated from the women?

9 A. The first group of seven men had already been

10 singled out, and they said this was for a beginning,

11 for liquidation.

12 Q. Was one of those men a doctor? Was his bag

13 taken and thrown into a ditch or a stream?

14 A. You see, yes, there was a doctor, a surgeon,

15 Trako Mujic, who was also lined up, and he addressed

16 Kraljevic and he said, "These people need me." He

17 said, "Nobody will need you." He grabbed his bag and

18 said he wouldn't need it anymore, and all those things

19 were thrown into the Lasva River, and they flowed down

20 the Lasva.

21 He gave a sign for all of those who were

22 there to get ready to finish off this group of seven.

23 When he had lined them up, he said, "Now you will see

24 what Ustashas can do." He took my brother by his shirt

25 collar and said, "You will pay in particular." Nobody

Page 7871

1 said a word, they were all silent, and then before they

2 got ready to do it, two UNPROFOR personnel carriers

3 stopped just there at the edge of the meadow, and they

4 saw us there.

5 When Kraljevic saw UNPROFOR, he said that he

6 would go and tell them to get lost because nobody must

7 see what was going to happen except us. So Karlo

8 Grabovac went to warn them, to tell them to go away,

9 that they mustn't take any photographs because this was

10 something they mustn't know. However, we thank one

11 person, and I will never say that name in public,

12 because they called UNPROFOR to come and save those 180

13 victims, and I have every respect for that person.

14 Then Kraljevic said, "We won't kill you

15 here. Take them to the school," and he took these two

16 men, escorted them to the school. They stayed at the

17 school. We remained waiting, and then suddenly they

18 ordered us to go back home.

19 We went back to our settlement. One-hundred

20 and eighty of us had to be put up in two houses; of

21 course, there wasn't room enough, but we had to make

22 due, whereas our houses that were left without anyone

23 inside were looted, and when we got back, everything

24 was upside down, ransacked.

25 Q. Before we leave that event, did Kraljevic

Page 7872

1 make clear how many people were to be executed, if more

2 than that first seven, or did he not make that clear?

3 A. The plan was for us all to be executed, all

4 of us who were there, all the inhabitants of that

5 settlement, because he was ready to liquidate all of us

6 who were there. That was Darko Kraljevic's intention,

7 to do it. Who gave the orders and whose idea it was, I

8 don't know.

9 Q. The people who were there, were they all

10 Muslims, in your group?

11 A. They were all Muslims.

12 Q. You were detained following this incident,

13 and we know that the men, the seven men returned as

14 well. Was there an occasion when soldiers, paragraph

15 44, came back to the village and made inquiries of you?

16 A. You mean the HVO soldiers?

17 Q. Yes.

18 A. Yes. A small group of people who were some

19 sort of supervisors, guards, apparently, to protect us,

20 so that nobody would kidnap us or take us away;

21 however, sometimes they were there, sometimes they were

22 not, but they didn't even fear that we would go

23 anywhere because we didn't have anywhere to go. Nobody

24 came, UNPROFOR or the Red Cross or anyone, to identify

25 us over a period of 21 days.

Page 7873

1 Once UNPROFOR headed towards us, they reached

2 as far as the bridge, they were shot at, they went

3 back, and we were never registered. Then once the

4 municipal Red Cross came. We thought they had come to

5 register us. We thought this list was being made so

6 they would know where we were, but the list was being

7 made for another purpose. The municipal Red Cross,

8 which was under the HVO, didn't ask us anything. They

9 just saw that we were there, turned around, and went

10 back.

11 Q. Did HVO soldiers ever search the houses in

12 which you were staying?

13 A. Let me tell you, they searched all the houses

14 and took with them whatever they wanted. They weren't

15 real soldiers. They were thugs who were looting other

16 people's houses. Those who were guarding us, they

17 didn't provoke us in any sense.

18 There was a young man of 16 who cried, and he

19 said, "Why aren't I going to school? I want to live.

20 I don't want to watch guard over you." He was a Croat,

21 a soldier of 16.

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7874

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted) and

6 what they had intended to happen did not happen.

7 Q. Thank you. I'm going to move on, again to

8 save you time, to paragraphs 45 to 48. Just yes or no

9 to this, because it may not particularly concern the

10 Tribunal, this Tribunal, just yes or no: Were you

11 aware of some rapes or alleged rapes at about this

12 time?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Just yes or no to this: Was the man Bralo

15 said to have been involved in one rape? Just yes or

16 no.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Just yes or no to this: Did you hear

19 something of what Bralo had said about the rape he was

20 alleged to have committed? Just yes or no.

21 A. I didn't hear Bralo say this, but women told

22 me who had been passing by the window that they heard

23 him say, "This was worse for me --"

24 Q. Pause there. I'm sorry. So it was women who

25 were passing the window who heard what it was Bralo had

Page 7875

1 said; is that correct?

2 A. No, women who were inside, but Bralo was

3 passing by the window with a number of soldiers, and he

4 said that this had been worse for him than to kill 50

5 people in Ahmici.

6 Q. Were you detained in your village until the

7 7th of May, when you were released, thanks to

8 negotiations between a Muslim doctor and a Croat

9 doctor, Bruno Buzuk?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you then walk to Zenica?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Accompanied by 11 people who stayed in your

14 village, including two brothers who you've named in

15 your statement and summary and who were later killed?

16 A. Yes. Eleven of them stayed behind. UNPROFOR

17 came to us, to Gornja Dubravica, and asked whether any

18 citizen had stayed behind. We said, "Yes, 11 of

19 them." They went to pick them up, to bring them over

20 too. However, they didn't want to come. Only the wife

21 of one of these men came because she was disabled and

22 she couldn't go on foot. The others stayed, and in

23 about a month and a half later, they too had to leave.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, I

25 should like to learn from the witness what is the

Page 7876

1 distance between the village and Zenica which she had

2 to cover on foot?

3 A. Via Vjetrenica, it is 18 kilometres, and if

4 you take the roundabout route, it is 23 kilometres. We

5 went across Vjetrenica, Mount Vjetrenica.

6 MR. NICE: I hope that satisfies the Court.

7 Q. One other question of geography that I was

8 going to ask you. Approximately how far east of the

9 boundaries of Vitez was your community in terms of

10 metres or kilometres?

11 A. From which spot do you mean? From what

12 town?

13 Q. From Vitez.

14 A. Our municipality is in Vitez, but where I

15 lived, it may be a kilometre and 200, 300 metres from

16 the actual municipality building.

17 Q. Thank you. Returning to the events following

18 your walk to Zenica, I think you may have confirmed,

19 and I just want to check this, that the two brothers, I

20 can perhaps give their last name or both their names,

21 Siljak, they were killed, were they? They stayed

22 behind and they were killed?

23 A. Yes. Their throats were slit. They weren't

24 killed. They were slaughtered. Apparently, they

25 played ball with their heads. That was the story. I

Page 7877

1 wasn't there, but people said, "Whose heads are they?"

2 In any event, to this day, they have no grave, and

3 nobody knows where their bodies are.

4 Q. I think your husband had been kept meanwhile

5 in Dubravica school.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. I just want to confirm that your son, who had

8 been a policeman, was, as you understood it, detained

9 in the SDK building until the 5th of May --

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- released and rearrested, taken with other

12 prisoners to Kaonik, killed on the 20th of June --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- and his body recovered from the Lasva

15 River, close to Kaonik, on the 23rd of June?

16 A. Yes, yes, yes, and he's buried in Busovaca

17 seven days later. Then the demand was made for the

18 bodies of five of them to be exhumed for the purposes

19 of exchange, and my son was exchanged. The funeral was

20 on the 19th of July.

21 My son was executed. You could see from his

22 documents, which had holes in them. I don't know about

23 the others. When he was exchanged, he was cut up in

24 pieces as if they were pieces of meat. They practised

25 massacring on his dead body.

Page 7878

1 MR. NICE: Can I produce through the witness

2 two exhibits, Z1751 and Z2210,8? Each must be under

3 seal because of anonymity. The first is a diagram that

4 shows, very schematically, the block of flats and the

5 coffee house, and the second is the death certificate

6 of her son. But they don't have to be shown publicly,

7 and they won't take any time.

8 Q. Witness R, is the first exhibit that I've

9 shown you just the diagram that you drew, at the time

10 that you were making one of your statements, that shows

11 the block of flats and the coffee house, and is the

12 second exhibit the death certificate of your son, but

13 you notice that the place of his death is recorded

14 there as "Lasva-Zenica", fourth line down, which is

15 inaccurate?

16 A. The killing was done between Lasva and

17 Zenica, at Kaonik. Actually, between Busovaca and

18 Lasva, not Zenica. Sorry.

19 Q. Two other questions and then I'm finished.

20 Paragraphs 32 and 33, (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 Q. Did you see him doing anything in the course

24 of these events you've told us about?

25 A. He was some sort of a commander of that

Page 7879

1 group, the group that was there that acted as

2 guards, sentries, I don't know what. He was the one in

3 charge, he was the one they obeyed, and I don't know

4 who gave him his orders. In any event, they asked

5 Karlo about everything. Whatever he said, they had to

6 do. Karlo Grabovac.

7 Q. His father's name was what?

8 A. Jozo, a nice man who used to work in the post

9 office. He was retired. He was head of the post

10 office. This is his son. He has only one son, and

11 that son is Karlo. He worked in the Impregnacija

12 factory with my husband, where my husband also worked.

13 We know each other.

14 Q. That's fine, I think.

15 One matter of detail that may be a detail for

16 you to correct and deal with or it may be for the

17 transcript, but you told us earlier about Vlado

18 Krizanac and, indeed, about his brothers; paragraph

19 14. What was the nickname for Vlado?

20 A. Sidi.

21 Q. Yes. I think in the transcript, it's

22 "Willy", and it's Sidi?

23 A. Sidi.

24 MR. NICE: Those are the only questions I

25 ask.

Page 7880

1 A. That's how everyone called him. And Willy

2 was the nickname of Marko Stipinovic, a good organiser

3 of crimes too.

4 JUDGE MAY: Very well. That would be a

5 suitable time to adjourn. Who is going to

6 cross-examine now?

7 MR. KOVACIC: Cerkez Defence will go first,

8 with your permission, Sir.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, obviously it would

10 be desirable, if it's possible, to finish this witness

11 today. There will be an hour remaining once we come

12 back. No doubt you'll make every effort.

13 MR. KOVACIC: Certainly, I will, Sir.

14 JUDGE MAY: 4.00, then.

15 --- Recess taken at 3.46 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 4.07 p.m.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

18 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

20 Q. I apologise, because I have to address you

21 with your pseudonym, as Witness R, rather than your

22 name, and I should like to take advantage of this

23 opportunity to express my condolences because of the

24 loss of your son.

25 I should like to ask you, in the interest of

Page 7881

1 expediency, to answer a few introductory questions.

2 What education do you have?

3 A. Elementary school education.

4 Q. Nothing more than that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you later acquire any vocational

7 training?

8 A. No.

9 Q. What was your source of living?

10 A. My husband's salary.

11 Q. You were not employed?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You told us that you were in this mountain

14 lodge when Cerkez came with some soldiers. Is it true

15 that this mountain lodge was called Jovica Kosanovic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It is on a mountain above Kruscica?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. I think the distance is about 12 kilometres

20 from the village of Kruscica.

21 A. I don't know exactly, because I never

22 measured the distance.

23 Q. But we can agree that it is not very close to

24 Kruscica?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7882

1 Q. So it is an area where, in addition to the

2 mountain lodge, there were quite a number of weekend

3 homes?

4 A. Yes, but on the other side, not nearby.

5 Q. When you say "not nearby" --

6 A. I mean not close to the mountain lodge. It

7 was maybe 200 metres, 500 metres, or maybe a whole

8 kilometre from the nearest weekend home, so 500 metres

9 away was the area where these holiday homes were.

10 Q. Did you own anything in that mountain lodge?

11 A. No.

12 Q. You had a contract on a lease, you had a

13 lease? Who did you sign this contract with?

14 A. With the Mountaineering Society of Vitez,

15 Latif Barucija, Fahra Sivro. But, in any event, with

16 two men who were responsible for this mountain lodge,

17 and I signed a contract with them as caretaker.

18 Q. When Cerkez came with those soldiers,

19 according to what you told us -- in fact, you said he

20 addressed you as madam -- was he polite with you?

21 A. Yes, of course.

22 Q. The soldiers and Cerkez were armed.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Please, don't repeat what I'm saying. Allow

25 me to put the questions to you.

Page 7883

1 So they were armed. Is it normal for

2 soldiers to be armed?

3 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's not a question you

4 need answer.

5 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Did any of those soldiers threaten with his

7 weapon, point his weapons?

8 A. No, not at that point in time.

9 Q. Madam, this happened on the 3rd of April,

10 1992. At that time, in Vitez and the surroundings,

11 there were no inter-ethnic conflicts at the time; is

12 that true?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But at that time already, the aggression had

15 started by the JNA against Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that

16 correct?

17 A. I think so, yes.

18 Q. At the time, military conscripts, both

19 Muslims and Croats, or Bosniaks, as some people prefer

20 to be called, that is, the Bosnian Croats and the

21 Bosnian Muslims, went to the battlefront in the

22 republic to fight the JNA; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And these soldiers that came with Cerkez, as

25 far as you understood, were part of that army?

Page 7884

1 A. Yes, but they were not a mixed army. They

2 were a single ethnic army. They were the HVO.

3 Q. Yes, but from the conversation, you were able

4 to gather that they were preparing to go to the front

5 line to fight the aggressor.

6 A. That is what they said, yes.

7 Q. At the time, did you hear that in April 1992,

8 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina had declared a

9 state of war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 A. Well, of course. I don't know really.

11 Q. Do you remember that there was a mobilisation

12 period, where men were being called up?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Let us go back for a moment to those weekend

15 houses. In view of the fact that you were in touch

16 with the mountain lodge, there were frequent instances

17 of burglaries of those weekend homes.

18 A. Yes. I saw weekend homes destroyed and

19 others looted because we would pass by them sometimes.

20 Q. These HVO soldiers who came with Cerkez and

21 captured the area, did you hear from them, that they

22 would try to protect the property?

23 A. No, I did not.

24 Q. You told us today that after being told to

25 contact the municipality for compensation, you received

Page 7885

1 in Bosnian coupons the equivalence of 70 marks; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. But you gave two previous statements to the

5 investigators. So you agree that you made a statement

6 in August 1996, a detailed one, and another one in

7 September 1998, slightly shorter.

8 In that statement, the first one from 1996,

9 you said, with reference to that event, that about a

10 month later, through the SDK service, you received an

11 amount equivalent to 700 German marks.

12 A. No. No, I'm sorry.

13 Q. But that is what it says in the statement.

14 A. No, that's a mistake. That's a mistake.

15 Q. Very well. In your statement from 1998, you

16 said that you received 70 German marks, but you did not

17 mention the SDK.

18 A. That is what I got through the SDK, and this

19 can be verified to this day.

20 Q. So it is true that you got the money from the

21 SDK?

22 A. And that's all I got.

23 Q. So through the SDK, you didn't receive 700,

24 but 70 marks.

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 7886

1 Q. This money that you got, did it correspond to

2 the income you had lost?

3 A. No where near that. The value was much

4 greater. My effort, the cleaning I had done, my

5 supplies, these were all goods that I had signed up

6 for. I was responsible for them. The value would be

7 much greater in peacetime.

8 Q. But you still hadn't started working there.

9 You had just prepared it.

10 A. No, I had already started working. I had

11 already taken in guests.

12 Q. I'm afraid I'm still not quite clear about

13 your answers in connection with Mario Cerkez's

14 appearance on television, so I have only one question

15 for you, and that is: Did you ever see Cerkez on

16 television in the company of Valenta?

17 A. Yes, several times. Valenta was there almost

18 regularly.

19 Q. Are you sure that it wasn't General Blaskic?

20 A. Sometimes the whole group was there, all of

21 them. When they had press conferences or meetings that

22 were public and that were shown on television, Valenta

23 was almost always there because he was the person most

24 responsible for the ethnic cleansing.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you. (redacted)

Page 7887

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 A. They didn't come to my place. I went to see

6 them. They are my relatives. I went to visit them.

7 They were brought in three days later because nobody

8 knew where they were hidden. It was upon the

9 insistence of the family that they were brought back in

10 a very bad condition. They could hardly talk. At that

11 time, they didn't really want to see anyone.

12 Q. Yes, you told us all that. But tell us,

13 please, did you learn then that after that unfortunate

14 event, they went to the hotel, to the civilian police?

15 A. I don't know that.

16 Q. Did you hear that they had been in Zenica at

17 the hospital?

18 A. Yes. Allegedly, they spent seven days

19 there. I don't know whether it was seven days, but

20 they were in hospital.

21 Q. How then could they see you on the third day?

22 A. Let me tell you. They were brought back

23 home, and from their home, they were taken to hospital

24 because they needed medical treatment.

25 Q. So you saw them before they went to the

Page 7888

1 hospital?

2 A. Yes, as soon as they were brought back, that

3 morning, I was there. I went to see how they were.

4 Q. And they didn't mention then that they were

5 in the civilian police?

6 A. No. They just mentioned that they were in

7 the restaurant, in the pub in the cellar of the hotel.

8 Q. But afterward, did they mention that?

9 A. I don't know that. Just a moment, please.

10 Correction. It was said they had been brought from the

11 police that morning.

12 Q. So that morning.

13 A. When they came home, they were brought from

14 the police. That is what they said, so that is their

15 story.

16 Q. Very well. Witness R, in the statement you

17 gave to the investigators in September 1998, I would

18 like to quote a sentence, an excerpt of what you said

19 then. You said: (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7889

1 (redacted)

2 MR. NICE: I interrupt, but I wonder whether

3 Mr. Kovacic will recall the care that's got to be taken

4 with this witness, if he is going to read passages out

5 that identify. Obviously, the process of redaction can

6 go on, but it's, I gather, already been difficult for

7 the staff. Perhaps he can be more careful. We've had

8 this problem before.

9 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours, I was trying to

10 be very careful and slow. I could repeat it, if you

11 want.

12 JUDGE MAY: It's not the repetition. It's

13 anything which might lead to identification.

14 MR. KOVACIC: I'm sorry. But both those

15 persons have many relatives. They are a big family.

16 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Does this mean that either of these two could

18 have told you that they saw the actual murder or that

19 they had heard about it?

20 A. It means that at that point, when they were

21 brought out of this beer cellar, that they went to

22 the -- that there at the hotel, there was only Cerkez

23 and -- again, I forget his name --

24 Q. You mean Vukadinovic?

25 A. Yes, Vukadinovic. However, they saw that

Page 7890

1 Samir was killed. Samir fell down as they were coming

2 out to this plateau, that is when Samir fell, but

3 apparently Vukadinovic had killed him, but then this

4 same Vukadinovic, I don't know whom he told this to,

5 but he said that he didn't do it.

6 Q. Very well. We have heard that. So did they

7 tell you that the guests who were in that beer cellar

8 came out running to the lobby of the hotel, including

9 Cerkez?

10 A. No, that is not what they told me. That is

11 not what I said.

12 Q. So they said that they were not down in the

13 beer cellar.

14 A. They were there in the beer cellar, and then

15 they were brought out and beaten up. So when they were

16 brought up, Samir was killed, and then they just know

17 that this Vukadinovic said that he did not kill Samir.

18 And I would like this to end, that this question be the

19 last one so that I don't repeat myself.

20 Q. Madam, were they physically attacked?

21 A. They were beaten up.

22 Q. Were they beaten up down in the beer cellar

23 before the murder took place?

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. Very well. And then they were again beaten

Page 7891

1 up after the murder?

2 A. I don't know about that. They were taken to

3 the woods in Kruscica and they were thrown down some

4 rocks, and all this happened in the same day.

5 Q. Did you hear whether they received some

6 medical treatment?

7 A. I don't know. Whether that was in the health

8 centre in Vitez or somewhere else, I don't know, but

9 they came back with casts around their necks, bandaged,

10 and they practically couldn't move.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, I think you may be

12 upsetting the witness by this line of questioning.

13 Now, if there's anything you particularly want to ask

14 about Mr. Cerkez, I think we've had all the detail on

15 this particular incident.

16 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours, if you allow me,

17 I'm just on the last question connected to this

18 incident.

19 JUDGE MAY: Very well, but then I suggest you

20 move on.

21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You told us, and if you would just confirm

23 this to us by just saying yes or no, whether this is

24 correct or not, you told us that Senad had a judgement

25 on who shot the deceased.

Page 7892

1 A. Yes, because there were only the two of them

2 there, Cerkez and Vukadinovic, at that time.

3 Q. Very well. Madam, you said that Vukadinovic

4 was in prison in Split.

5 A. We were told that he was taken there for his

6 own safety.

7 Q. You said that he was in prison.

8 A. This is the story that was circulated

9 widely.

10 Q. Madam, is it correct that one of these two

11 nephews, that is, one of the two persons we have

12 mentioned, I am not going to mention the names, that he

13 was in a juvenile corrections centre as a juvenile?

14 A. Who are you referring to? If you're

15 mentioning names, you --

16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, let's move on.

17 A. I don't know.

18 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Just one more thing. In May 1992, at the

20 time when this murder took place, regarding the

21 situation in April, there was no persecution, there was

22 no conflict between the Muslims and the Croats, and

23 still there was an ongoing aggression of the Serbs

24 against the Bosniaks; is that correct?

25 A. Of course it is.

Page 7893

1 Q. In part of your statement, you mentioned this

2 cafe which you said the HVO -- you said some persons,

3 apparently referring to the HVO, the Cafe Zukic, that

4 it was forcibly taken away from this man?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And since this was your immediate

7 neighbourhood, do you know whether the municipality

8 compensated the man for the requisitioned facility?

9 A. I only know he invested a lot of money in

10 there. I don't know whether he had really started

11 working there. But it was at this time that this

12 property was taken away from him, and I know that he --

13 from last I saw him, he still was not compensated.

14 Q. But do you know whether this was an organised

15 unit who took it?

16 A. I think that somebody had asked that it

17 should be taken away from him.

18 Q. But he didn't say who it was?

19 A. No, but can I just answer?

20 Q. The Prosecutor will ask you additional

21 questions, and then you may offer an answer.

22 Madam, you also mentioned Darko Kraljevic.

23 You said that he was a Joker. In your previous

24 statements, you expressly stated that he was a Joker,

25 and now you say that the Jokers and Vitezovi were one

Page 7894

1 and the same, that all their badges were worn together?

2 A. Yes, they were worn together.

3 Q. Madam, are you sure that Darko Kraljevic and

4 his members were calling themselves Jokers?

5 A. Yes. He was the chief of them. Jokers and

6 Vitezovi, this is what they were called. They were

7 called Kraljevic's Vitezovi.

8 Q. Madam, if you could just answer very simply,

9 do you know that -- are you sure that Kraljevic was

10 commander of the Jokers?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, what turns --

13 MR. KOVACIC: It is impeachment, Your

14 Honour. The witness is claiming that she doesn't know

15 exactly --

16 JUDGE MAY: We have the point in mind, that

17 you say there's other evidence that Kraljevic was the

18 leader of the Vitezovi.

19 MR. KOVACIC: Okay. Then I have no --

20 JUDGE MAY: We have the point.

21 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Sir.

22 Q. Madam, when you testified about the horrible

23 experiences you had when you were detained, you said

24 that you would not disclose names but that you were

25 grateful to the person who called UNPROFOR up. I'm not

Page 7895

1 asking for a name, but was it a Croat?

2 A. It could be a Croat or Croatian man or woman.

3 Q. Was this person wearing an HVO uniform?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Could we agree, which would follow from your

6 statement, but you did not state it expressly so I need

7 to ask you, at the time when you were in Dubravica, in

8 the school, when your husband was there and you were in

9 the neighbourhood, Darko Kraljevic's troops were there?

10 A. All different troops who wanted to torture

11 and mistreat detainees paraded through the school in

12 Dubravica, not only the Vitezovi and the Jokers and the

13 HOS. Anybody who wanted to torture the detainees came

14 through this school building.

15 Q. Madam, when you say "HVO", do you refer to

16 all the troops which were on the Croatian side?

17 A. Every troop had insignia. I don't know

18 whether all the HOS went to the HVO. Jokers, I don't

19 think, were the HVO, per se. They had -- they were an

20 independent unit. But the HVO was the head of all the

21 troops who were in Vitez. If they were not, why didn't

22 they prevent this?

23 Q. Is this what you know directly?

24 A. I know this from all the stories that went

25 around.

Page 7896

1 Q. Very well. You said that Kraljevic's plan

2 was to kill you all, and you meant -- I guess you were

3 referring to everybody in Donja Dubravica.

4 A. Yes, all of us civilians who were in

5 Dubravica, in -- not in the school building, he had

6 ordered that we were all to be taken out to the open

7 field, and this was to be done I don't know by whom.

8 Q. Madam, did you see this plan? Did you hear

9 about it?

10 A. I witnessed it. I was just there and waiting

11 when we would be lined up. I'm not excited. This is

12 just the way I speak. We were all waiting to see when

13 our turn would come.

14 Q. But you never saw this in writing, nor did

15 anybody tell you that this was the plan?

16 A. I don't know that I can answer with "Yes" or

17 "No", but I can tell you specifically that there was a

18 plan. A plan existed that we should all be done away

19 with.

20 Q. Eventually, of the group that you said Darko

21 Kraljevic separated in order to have them killed, you

22 said that fortunately UNPROFOR came and they were all

23 released, nobody was killed?

24 A. That is true, nobody was killed, and that is

25 correct.

Page 7897

1 Q. Very well. Madam, you also mention in your

2 statement that your husband suffered a heart attack

3 because he was a heart patient?

4 A. Before the war, he had two heart attacks, and

5 he was pronounced clinically dead by doctors in the

6 camp.

7 Q. And the HVO transferred him to the health

8 centre in Vitez?

9 A. Yes, and then the UNPROFOR took it over from

10 there. They said that they took over the body and they

11 brought him to Travnik and just dumped him at the

12 hospital in Travnik without ever providing any

13 information. And only when he was -- the third day

14 after he was considered dead, he woke up on his own.

15 Q. Madam, you said that at one point, the HVO

16 soldiers came to Donja Dubravica and you complained and

17 asked for protection, to be protected from Darko

18 Kraljevic's men. Do you agree that, in a way, they did

19 attempt to protect you?

20 A. Who?

21 Q. Those to whom you complained, whose

22 protection you asked.

23 A. I can respond to this very specifically. The

24 HVO had control over this area for 20 days. We were a

25 few neighbours and we had no problems, and they

Page 7898

1 protected us so that nobody would come from Jozo Buha's

2 group from over the hill, so they protected us.

3 Secondly, the Jokers came the night before we

4 were driven out of this neighbourhood. That's when

5 they raped these women, and we couldn't ask for

6 protection of them because we wouldn't -- we didn't

7 have anyone to ask it from. They wouldn't have given

8 it to us.

9 Q. Witness R, did you ever hear with whom Bralo

10 was with, Cicko?

11 A. He was with Vitezovi or Jokers. To us, it

12 was the same. Vitezovi and Jokers were one and the

13 same.

14 Q. Madam, my apologies to you, and I'm not going

15 to ask you about this tragic incident, murder.

16 A. Ask anything you want.

17 Q. You said that his body was found between

18 Lasva and Busovaca. That is outside of the Vitez

19 municipality?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Very well. Madam, I have only one additional

22 question for you.

23 When you started on the way to Zenica on the

24 mountain road through Vrhovine and Poculica, you said

25 how many kilometres that is, the distance, and beyond

Page 7899

1 Poculica, the territories under the ABiH are

2 controlled?

3 A. Yes, actually beyond Dubravica.

4 Q. So Dubravica was the line of separation?

5 A. Yes, that is so.

6 Q. So did you ask of the -- why didn't you ask

7 of ABiH army to give you a lift?

8 A. Let me be allowed to tell you this. We came

9 to Dubravica on foot, and then individuals from Zenica,

10 and some people of goodwill, they all came in their

11 private vehicles, on buses, they drove, they came to

12 save us. Some walked on foot. Some got lifts from --

13 got lifts in different vehicles, but everybody wanted

14 to leave as soon as possible. A friend of mine came

15 from Zenica, so he took me in his vehicle.

16 Q. And you only all were walking to Poculica?

17 A. Yes, of course. I don't know how long it

18 was; two, three kilometres. But there was sniper fire

19 from the Krizancevo Gaj, and all this was controlled

20 all the way until Poculica. This whole area was under

21 their control.

22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you,

23 madam. This is all.

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: Thank you, Your Honours.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

Page 7900

1 Q. Madam, now let me introduce myself. I am a

2 lawyer from Zagreb, Mitko Naumovski, and I'm one of the

3 Defence counsel for Mr. Drago Kordic.

4 A. I'm happy to know it.

5 Q. I'm just going to ask you a few very brief

6 questions on one single topic. On the 15th of April,

7 1993, from 7.00, you watched television at your

8 brother's house, did you not?

9 A. No. We watched -- we did not watch

10 Croatian -- the Croatian programme but we switched over

11 to the Bosnian television programme.

12 Q. Madam, I just took note of the fact that you

13 were watching television. I didn't say what you were

14 watching.

15 A. Yes, we were watching television. I watched

16 television, and we watched up until --

17 Q. Please, madam, may I proceed with my

18 questioning?

19 What you saw on television was a press

20 conference, in fact?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. At that press conference, there were a number

23 of individuals?

24 A. Yes, five or six people. They were sitting

25 in the television studio, in a hall. I don't know

Page 7901

1 where. Anyway, that's what it was.

2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

3 I just wanted to clarify one point, that it was in fact

4 a press conference, and that press conference, on the

5 15th of October, 1993, the Court has already had

6 occasion to hear about, and part of it was shown here,

7 part of that press conference, and the transcript has

8 also been tendered into evidence, and so I'm sure that

9 Your Honours will be able to see exactly what

10 Mr. Kordic said on the occasion.

11 JUDGE MAY: It's challenged, is it, that he

12 said that there would be no more negotiations and that

13 the Croats would be fighting a war? Is that in

14 dispute?

15 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Quite so,

16 Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Anything else you

18 want to ask?

19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

20 the Defence of Mr. Kordic sometimes has a little more

21 questions to ask, and we consider that that is

22 necessary for protecting the interests of our client,

23 Mr. Kordic. But in this instance, we're going to

24 reduce time and be brief, and so we have no more

25 questions for this witness.

Page 7902

1 A. Well, I would like you to have more questions

2 and then I could answer your questions.

3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Could I just

4 add that we don't consider it essential, but as the

5 witness said so, let me say that Mr. Kordic was never

6 on the particular premises that she mentioned that he

7 was, but we don't think it's important.

8 A. I think that what I said was quite certain

9 but if you say so, perhaps you were there, so you know

10 better than me. I then apologise.

11 JUDGE MAY: Thank you, Mr. Naumovski. Any

12 re-examination?

13 MR. NICE: Just a few points.

14 Re-examination by Mr. Nice:

15 Q. How was Mr. Kordic dressed when he was at the

16 cafe?

17 A. He was dressed in a camouflage uniform with a

18 cap and a chequerboard emblem on it.

19 Q. The second point, you have been asked

20 questions about the plan to kill the people in the

21 meadow. One matter of detail you can help us with.

22 It's paragraphs 38 and 39. While the seven men had

23 been separated, was there a vehicle present with some

24 kind of gun on it or some kind of armament on it?

25 A. Yes. There was a big truck on the bridge, at

Page 7903

1 the entrance to the bridge, and on it was a sort of

2 mortar, a long barrel, which was aimed at the direction

3 of the settlement where we were.

4 Q. Who was in charge of that vehicle?

5 A. Karlo Grabovac was in charge.

6 Q. And so that vehicle was aiming in the

7 direction of whereabouts?

8 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour --

9 MR. NICE: I'm sorry?

10 A. In the village, yes.

11 MR. KOVACIC: I would like to object on the

12 basis that those issues were not even touched during

13 the cross, so it is indeed a continuation of direct.

14 It is not redirect.

15 JUDGE MAY: There was an issue, I recollect,

16 as to whether there was a plan to kill the people in

17 the field, so any evidence relevant to that must be

18 admissible.

19 MR. NICE: I'm grateful.

20 Q. I'll just deal with paragraph 39, but of

21 course we notice that there has been no challenge by

22 the Defence in relation to the involvement of Karlo

23 Grabovac on 31 and onwards, but if Mr. Kovacic wants to

24 challenge 38 and 39, I would personally have no

25 objection to his being allowed to do so.

Page 7904

1 JUDGE MAY: Well, let's not take more time.

2 MR. NICE:

3 Q. This truck that you saw, had it been used on

4 any earlier occasions, to your knowledge?

5 A. Well, probably. That mortar, which was

6 parked up on the bridge, that was, in fact, the

7 blockade of the bridge, and perhaps from that

8 particular mortar they fired at the settlement in which

9 we lived, because from all sides, from all weapons,

10 this settlement where we lived was attacked. Luckily,

11 not too many of us died.

12 MR. KOVACIC: The same objection. The mortar

13 was not even mentioned.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Nice, is there anything

15 more you want?

16 MR. NICE: Yes, two other questions.

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 A. Well, of course, all the groups came there,

23 the army, the Jokers, the civilians. Everything was

24 there, and it was a real organisation for agreement,

25 for information, and that was the main sort of -- where

Page 7905

1 all the main events took place, in that particular

2 coffee house.

3 Q. Do you know what explanation, if any, was

4 given to the occupier when he was forced out?

5 A. An explanation was given, and I was told this

6 by this individual. He asked that they pay

7 compensation, and they threatened to kill him, that he

8 shouldn't come there anymore, and after the war it

9 would be his again. So those were the words he used to

10 tell me about that event, as you asked me that

11 particular question, I know what he said when we

12 talked.

13 Q. Then the last question on a similar topic but

14 relating to your lodge. How near or far was your lodge

15 from the Serb front line, if you can help us, at the

16 time that the lodge was taken from you?

17 A. It was very far away, very far. It wasn't --

18 there weren't any Serbs on one side or the other or the

19 third. They weren't in the vicinity. There were no

20 Serbs there in the vicinity. There was Vlasic. That's

21 a long way off. There was the Karaula Travnik, there

22 was Donji Vakuf and so on. But in the vicinity, there

23 was no Serbian army or front line with the Serbs,

24 against the Serbs.

25 Q. Finally, was anything said about the use that

Page 7906

1 would be put of your lodge or did you discover what use

2 your lodge was put to?

3 A. I was informed -- I've already answered that

4 question. I think I've already answered why my

5 particular mountain lodge was taken away from me, where

6 I was to have worked, and this incurred thousands of

7 marks in damages because I wasn't able to work it

8 further.

9 MR. NICE: Thank you.

10 MR. KOVACIC: May I just briefly pose -- the

11 question implies that the witness was the owner of the

12 object, which the witness really said --

13 JUDGE MAY: It's not terribly important. I

14 think it's clear that she wasn't. She ran a business

15 there, as I understand it.

16 MR. NICE: Yes, that's quite right.

17 A. No -- yes, that's right.

18 MR. NICE:

19 Q. But what use was the lodge put to?

20 A. Well, it rendered a service.

21 Q. When it was taken over by the HVO, what use

22 did they put it to; do you know?

23 A. I can't tell you exactly what use, because I

24 left the same day. You know why they came. I was

25 told -- Cerkez told me, when I asked him, "What am I to

Page 7907

1 do now and what does all this mean," and he told me,

2 "You're asking too much. You'll learn in due course."

3 MR. NICE: All right. Nothing else, thank

4 you.

5 JUDGE MAY: Witness R, thank you very much

6 for coming to the International Tribunal.

7 A. Thank you for inviting me.

8 JUDGE MAY: That concludes your evidence.

9 You are free to go.

10 THE WITNESS: Thank you. If I may, please,

11 may I just tell the public a detail, tell them of a

12 detail?

13 JUDGE MAY: Well, very briefly, if you must.

14 THE WITNESS: May I present something? It's

15 very brief.

16 This piece of paper from the International

17 Red Cross in Zagreb came to me saying that my son was

18 alive. Nobody knew what happened to my husband. When

19 this paper was drawn out, he was proclaimed alive. He

20 was taken from the camp as dead. My son has a paper

21 from the Red Cross in Zagreb saying that my son is

22 alive. So here are the documents. Who wrote them, I

23 don't know.

24 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to show them to

25 the Prosecutor --

Page 7908

1 THE WITNESS: This came from Croatia.

2 JUDGE MAY: -- if you would like to show it

3 to the Prosecution afterwards, no doubt, they could

4 make use of them as they think fit, but thank you very

5 much.

6 THE WITNESS: You're welcome. I think that

7 something ought to be done, that this ought to be shown

8 to someone.

9 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours, of course, the

12 Defence would move to have a copy of those papers if

13 they are to be received by the Prosecution.

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, if necessary, of

15 course.

16 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, sir.

17 JUDGE MAY: The Prosecution can deal with the

18 matter.

19 Yes.

20 MR. NICE: I don't know how late the Chamber

21 is thinking of sitting today, but now that we've

22 finished that witness, there remains the issue of the

23 Ribicic statement to be dealt with.

24 Obviously, it's preferable to deal with it as

25 soon as possible, given that Ribicic is spending time

Page 7909

1 preparing his report and so on. His report will

2 probably not be available in a form to be served until

3 the beginning of next week, but I think the underlying

4 principles could be argued out now, if the Court had

5 time to deal with it. That's why Ms. Somers has joined

6 us, because she's been dealing with Dr. Ribicic and is

7 seized of all the detail, rather more at the top of her

8 mind than I am, but I can deal with it on a later date,

9 if you prefer. She won't be here later this week.

10 JUDGE MAY: On Wednesday then, I take it that

11 the plan is that we will not sit. There are no more

12 witnesses.

13 MR. NICE: There's no more witnesses, and I

14 don't think I'm going to be able to find one at short

15 notice, and in any event, we were warned that the Court

16 might not have any time for us on that day.

17 JUDGE MAY: That is true. So it may be

18 convenient to deal with it, but it's a question of

19 whether we can sit or not.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we have 20 minutes to

22 deal with these matters.

23 We've got, may I say, to start with the

24 Defence objection, which, summarised, is that this

25 witness was not on the original list, despite various

Page 7910

1 orders being made that witnesses should be notified to

2 the Court and to the Defence, and in fact I think I'm

3 right in saying his name didn't appear until August.

4 That's the objection, and we'll hear from the

5 Prosecution now as to why they say we should allow the

6 witness to give evidence.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, if I can just deal

8 with the first procedural matter, and Ms. Somers can

9 deal with the detail, I find this an astonishing

10 objection and typical of the desire, simply, to keep

11 any evidence out on any technical ground available to

12 the Defence, however misconceived.

13 Your Honours, I have to say that.

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, maybe, but apart from

15 that.

16 MR. NICE: Because, as I started to explain

17 on the last occasion, this is an issue that was raised

18 well before any deadlines were identified and reached.

19 It was an issue identified by our preparing the

20 constitutional expert in Blaskic's rather complex trial

21 testimony in a reduced and easily consumable form and

22 serving it for admission.

23 That general course is something, I think, of

24 which the Chamber would approve; that is, using

25 evidence that might be admissible from another trial in

Page 7911

1 this one and, indeed, using it in a convenient and

2 compact format.

3 The Defence indicated that they were not

4 prepared to accept that evidence without having the

5 witness here for cross-examination. That witness

6 suffered certain consequences as a result of giving

7 evidence in Blaskic and is, unfortunately, not able to

8 help us. He declines to come, and that may be

9 understandable. I made it plain right from the

10 beginning that I was looking for an alternative.

11 The Defence pre-trial brief, volume 1, on

12 factual issues, the second part of that document,

13 contains something called a "Constitutional Analysis of

14 the Croatian Community and the Croatian Republic of

15 Herceg-Bosna," and although not authored -- at least

16 not publicly authored -- it's plainly the fruits of

17 research that they have undertaken with an expert and

18 which they intend to lay before the Court in due

19 course.

20 Its conclusions, favourable to the Defence,

21 no doubt, are conclusions which they will know already

22 from the way that the expert in Blaskic would have

23 expressed himself, are not conclusions we, for one

24 second, accept.

25 Our efforts to find an appropriate expert met

Page 7912

1 with various difficulties, maybe a general and

2 understandable concern on the part of retained

3 academics -- or academics of the appropriate level of

4 seniority retained in parts of the former Yugoslavia to

5 come to this Tribunal, with all the risks that are

6 associated.

7 Those difficulties were compounded by the

8 fact that it was certainly hoped at one stage and,

9 indeed, was the clearly expressed desire of the

10 Chamber, I think, at one stage that the Prosecution

11 case would end by Christmas. So when we found one

12 expert who was otherwise available and appropriately

13 qualified, but when that deadline emerged as a possible

14 deadline, we had to look elsewhere, and we found the

15 next expert and went through the necessary extended

16 process of negotiating with him and seeing whether he

17 was qualified and whether he was prepared to help.

18 On the 16th of June, at page 4058 of the

19 transcript, I informed the Chamber and, indeed, the

20 Defence of all of this and said: "We have now

21 identified an expert, or I think we have now identified

22 an expert. I'm not sure how long it's going to take

23 for me to have that report."

24 I beg your pardon. That was the previous

25 expert that was not available, but I explained the

Page 7913

1 position that we were still looking and what the

2 problems were, and as soon as I knew of the

3 availability of Dr. Ribicic, on the 5th of August, I

4 explained the position and named him. At none of these

5 intervening explanations by me of our position was any

6 objection expressed.

7 The Defence have suffered no prejudice of any

8 kind because, of course, experts are subject to quite

9 specific rules on disclosure, 21 days before they give

10 evidence, with liberty to the Defence to serve a notice

11 saying that they require to cross-examine the expert;

12 earlier, of course, if the expert's report is

13 available, but by no means is it always the case that

14 they will be, and, indeed, expert reports have been

15 served in this case after the initial deadlines but in

16 accordance with the Tribunal's Rules.

17 So they've suffered no prejudice. They knew

18 we were looking for an expert, they knew of one name

19 that they rejected, and all that's happened is that

20 they've found a name. It may be that the name troubles

21 them because he is a man of great eminence and will be

22 able to assist the Chamber very considerably in

23 analysing the constitutional position of the state and

24 of the body Herceg-Bosna, and he will be able to deal

25 with all those issues raised in the Defence brief.

Page 7914

1 Of course, the Defence brief comes without an

2 identified expert, so we can't begin to analyse the

3 value or otherwise of that report, and we know that the

4 Defence are not prepared to allow experts to be put

5 together so that they can thrash out issues and narrow

6 the issues for the assistance of the Chamber. So we

7 have to do it this way.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, so that I can have the

9 timetable right, you served, as I recollect, before the

10 trial --

11 MR. NICE: Well before the trial.

12 JUDGE MAY: -- but certainly by the

13 beginning, a summary of an expert's report.

14 MR. NICE: That's correct.

15 JUDGE MAY: It's proposed, is it, that this

16 witness should deal with the same subject?

17 MR. NICE: Absolutely, yes, and I shan't then

18 be seeking to read Dr. Pajic's evidence into this trial

19 because they made it clear they want to cross-examine

20 whichever expert we call.

21 But it may be that it would be helpful if you

22 just hear very briefly from Ms. Somers on the detailed

23 issues, because she's been dealing with these matters

24 more than I have, the detailed issues on which this

25 witness can speak, and, indeed, because she's been in

Page 7915

1 contact with him directly, she can probably give you

2 some account of the conclusions that he reaches,

3 radically different from the Defence, which they desire

4 to keep from evidence.

5 JUDGE MAY: You've got five minutes, I'm

6 afraid, Ms. Somers, to do all that.

7 MS. SOMERS: Pursuant to what Mr. Nice has

8 informed the Court, it is essential, because these

9 issues have been squarely raised by the Defence, that

10 this Court be able to have a clear objective view of

11 the legal structure of what was known as Herceg-Bosna,

12 both in its community form, as it were, and in its

13 republic form.

14 There are mischaracterisations as to the

15 powers of the presidency which form the basis for the

16 Defence position, which this Court must be made aware

17 of, that are central to the issues of guilt or

18 innocence or power of the accused.

19 The particular individual, Dr. Ciril Ribicic,

20 is peculiarly capable of rendering a very definitive

21 position and giving this Court the inside, as it

22 were -- from the inside position understanding of the

23 structures themselves and the context in which they

24 arose, in as much as Dr. Ribicic is a professor of law

25 at Ljubljana University in Slovenia; he is a well-known

Page 7916

1 international and constitutional lawyer; he is a member

2 of parliament of the sovereign state of Slovenia; he,

3 in fact, assisted in drafting the documents which led

4 to sovereignty for Slovenia, the constitutional

5 documents; he is born and bred in the system; he is

6 capable of dealing with the most critical documents in

7 B/C/S, in the language in which they were drafted, as

8 it is one of his first languages, his first language

9 being Slovenian, followed closely by B/C/S; and will be

10 able to lay aside any of the serious

11 mischaracterisations about both the entity and the

12 powers of the accused.

13 As Mr. Nice had indicated, it was extremely

14 difficult to try to get a person of this calibre to

15 commit to time. He has been very generous with us in

16 so doing, and we would hope very much that this Chamber

17 will be able to benefit strongly from his evidence.

18 The position itself must be addressed because

19 it is so central to the -- I would say it is a core

20 issue of this case.

21 If there are any particular questions about

22 Dr. Ribicic that I can answer for the Chamber, I would

23 be very happy to do so.

24 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

25 Yes, Mr. Sayers.

Page 7917

1 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, I'm not going to

2 waste time by belabouring the points already made in

3 the skeleton argument that we filed. Those arguments

4 speak for themselves.

5 The fact of the matter is that today, we

6 stand before you without a statement from Mr. Ribicic.

7 We didn't know whether he was a fact or an expert

8 witness as of August the 5th, but apparently that issue

9 has now been resolved. We don't have a summary of what

10 his testimony is purported to be, and the Court's

11 orders speak with a very simple, clear precision that

12 does not need to be beaten to death.

13 All of the witness statements of the

14 witnesses that the Prosecution intends to call had to

15 be delivered to the Defence by no later than May the

16 17th, after two separate extensions, and the fact of

17 the matter is that the statement or summary of this

18 witness has not been delivered to us.

19 On the subject of the constitutional

20 discussion --

21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sayers,

22 regarding this particular point you are talking about,

23 the Chamber's order, it has to do with the list of

24 witnesses, such as it existed, and the statements of

25 those witnesses.

Page 7918

1 You certainly know that it is possible to

2 review that list of witnesses, and if a modification of

3 that list is authorised by the Chamber, then the

4 Prosecutor is allowed to produce statements. So we

5 cannot say that because there is no statement that we

6 cannot call a witness.

7 MR. SAYERS: You're quite correct, of course,

8 Your Honour, that Rule 73 permits the Prosecution to

9 reinstate its list of witnesses with the permission of

10 the Trial Chamber, provided there is good reason for

11 doing that, obviously, and we would submit that given

12 the fact that there have been two separate extensions

13 here, there is no good reason for that.

14 Actually, turning to the specifics of the

15 application, since it deals with the discussion on the

16 constitutionality of the institutions of Herceg-Bosna

17 that was contained in our opening brief, I must say I'm

18 extremely flattered that the Prosecution deemed that a

19 constitutional expert was necessary to write those

20 portions of the brief, but with all due respect, I

21 don't qualify for that. I actually wrote those

22 sections myself, and we didn't have any constitutional

23 expert. Frankly, all it is is a legal analysis of the

24 documents themselves, and that's exactly what Dr. Pajic

25 testified about for about four or five days in the

Page 7919

1 Blaskic case, just the legal import of documents.

2 That's what our analysis confined itself to,

3 and, frankly, the Court itself is -- that's what the

4 job of the Court is, to define or to discern what the

5 meaning of documents may be. That's something that's

6 peculiarly within the province of the Court and outside

7 the province, I would submit, of any constitutional

8 expert.

9 In addition, we've let the Prosecution know

10 what our position is from the very beginning. I wrote

11 a letter to Mr. Nice, I believe, or Mr. Scott on the

12 17th of June of this year that says, "We shall object,

13 when necessary, to any attempt by the Prosecution to

14 introduce testimony or statements from witnesses whose

15 statements have not been provided to us prior to the

16 court or the deadline. We believe that this is not an

17 unreasonable position, given the extremely large

18 witness list assembled by the Prosecution."

19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sayers, if you are, in

20 fact, provided now in a timely manner with the

21 statement of the witness so that you can study it and

22 decide what your position is, what prejudice would

23 there be to the Defence?

24 MR. SAYERS: Well, the prejudice is as

25 follows, Your Honour:

Page 7920

1 First of all, there is a clear Court order,

2 and it simply hasn't been complied with, and that's the

3 first position.

4 The second position is that the Prosecution,

5 as I gather, is saying that the testimony of this

6 gentleman is going to be completely duplicative of the

7 testimony that has already been introduced through

8 Mr. Pajic in the Blaskic case, and it seems to me that

9 this is just a completely unnecessary waste of time,

10 especially since we are coming up to the end of the

11 Prosecution's case, at least I hope, by --

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, I'm sorry to

13 interrupt, but let me follow the argument. Are you

14 saying that if Dr. Pajic's evidence was introduced or

15 somebody sought to do that, you wouldn't object?

16 MR. SAYERS: I think that that's an extremely

17 terse way of putting it, yes, Your Honour. It seems to

18 me that if his testimony has already been taken, in the

19 interests of saving time and not consuming the Court's

20 resources with a live witness who would no doubt

21 testify for yet more days, we would be prepared to

22 reconsider our position with respect to Pajic, provided

23 that's not deemed to be a blanket waiver of our

24 previously-articulated position.

25 Really, that's all I have to say on the

Page 7921

1 matter, Your Honour. Thank you.

2 JUDGE MAY: Is that of any use?

3 MR. NICE: No, I'm afraid not, Your Honour,

4 because we've moved on from there. This witness, who

5 has already been seen, holds his own views which in

6 some ways are similar to and in some ways may be

7 different from Pajic. But more important, he deals

8 quite specifically with the role of Kordic. Pajic, at

9 the time we were looking at that, deals with things

10 much more generally. So it's extremely important that

11 he comes in and gives evidence himself.

12 He was identified as an expert on the 5th of

13 August. There's no question of his being a fact

14 witness. The report or the summary contained in the

15 document --

16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,

17 you are presenting your argument. I'd like to

18 understand it, but I don't understand it very well.

19 You told us that this witness will be talking

20 about Kordic, whereas the previous one spoke about

21 Blaskic. If I understood well, it would be an expert

22 testimony on the presidency of Herceg-Bosna. That is

23 what I read in the transcript, the presidency of

24 Herceg-Bosna, both as a community and as a republic.

25 So these are the people involved.

Page 7922

1 We are not listening to an expert opinion on

2 constitutional law, apparently, but on the community of

3 Herceg-Bosna, its nature, its legal characteristics.

4 Therefore, your argument about the personalities

5 involved, I don't see how that changes anything

6 regarding the nature of that community.

7 MR. NICE: Quite right, insofar as the

8 individual personalities are concerned, but so far as a

9 person who is the office holder of the office of

10 vice-president, the constitutional position is

11 important.

12 What I intended to say, and I haven't got the

13 transcript before me to know whether I achieved it,

14 what I intended to say was that in Blaskic, matters

15 were looked at much more generally. In Kordic, they'll

16 have to be looked at generally but also in relation to

17 Kordic's role, he being an office holder.

18 But in addition to that, there's, I suppose,

19 the reality that this witness, and Ms. Somers may be

20 able to helped you more on this, may hold slightly

21 different views from those of the witness in Blaskic,

22 and he, having been seen and spoken to, is the witness

23 who could most help -- it is thought could most help

24 the Chamber in relation to the facts of this trial.

25 I'm also surprised at the thought that what

Page 7923

1 is contained in the factual brief of the Defence is

2 drafted purely by a lawyer, because it has all the

3 form, with conclusions and so on, as if it's drafted by

4 somebody who would be familiar both with the language

5 and with the law.

6 JUDGE MAY: Well, we'll be able to look at

7 that in due course.

8 MR. NICE: The report itself, as I say,

9 should be available in about ten days, the beginning of

10 next week I would hope, and as Ms. Somers has already

11 indicated, it deals with a number of central issues on

12 the legality or illegality as well as the nature of the

13 powers of Herceg-Bosna.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Somers, can you say

16 whether the evidence of this expert witness will differ

17 from the evidence given by Pajic in Blaskic?

18 MS. SOMERS: Dr. Pajic's testimony dealt with

19 a very detailed analysis of the Gazette, the Official

20 Gazette of Herceg-Bosna, the Narodni list. This

21 witness incorporates, of course, that type of analysis

22 in the same type of detail but is responsive to the

23 very specific issues raised by the Defence in the

24 characterisation of the types of powers that would be

25 consistent with the vice-president, as an officer of

Page 7924

1 the presidency.

2 The position taken by the Defence is that it

3 was a strictly legislative role and that all of the

4 types of activity that the Prosecution has proven to

5 date and intends to prove in the future would be

6 inconsistent and is essentially a mischaracterization

7 by the Prosecution. In fact, the type of understanding

8 which this Chamber can receive from Dr. Ribicic will

9 make it more than clear just what the various positions

10 entailed. It will also make very clear what

11 Herceg-Bosna represented to the Republic of Croatia, as

12 well as to its impact on the then continuously

13 sovereign state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 There is a great deal in common, certainly,

15 but because the issues framed by the Defence go beyond

16 the Pajic area, all of which, by the way, was

17 completely given to the Defence in the form of the

18 summary, so in fact a summary was certainly presented,

19 so this would be Pajic plus, based on the issues framed

20 by the Defence.

21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers,

23 I should like to follow on to the question that has

24 just been put to you by my colleague, Judge Robinson.

25 I do not need to remind you that in this

Page 7925

1 Tribunal, we are confronted with a problem of time and

2 we are trying to be as speedy as possible while, of

3 course, fully meeting all the requirements of justice,

4 and we're always asking you to assist us. Is it

5 possible, in this case, in accordance with what you

6 have just said, to have the transcript of the witness

7 Pajic as he testified in the Blaskic case, when he

8 provided legal expertise on the community of

9 Herceg-Bosna, and to bring Mr. Ribicic only for the

10 aspects that do not appear in the Blaskic transcript,

11 because that would meet your concerns, the concerns of

12 the Prosecution. I don't know whether the Defence

13 could also assist us by agreeing to this, because I

14 think in this way we would have a clearer idea of the

15 legal aspects and the constitutional aspects of

16 Herceg-Bosna.

17 MS. SOMERS: I think that that would be a

18 sound resolution. I would also ask, of course, that

19 the Court accept, pursuant to Rule 94 bis, the

20 statement which is being prepared and shall be ready

21 for the Chamber by Dr. Ribicic so that the areas which

22 are not well dealt with by Dr. Pajic may be presented

23 fully and fairly to the Chamber, and then perhaps any

24 cross-examination or questions from the Bench could be

25 crafted accordingly. But I think it would serve best

Page 7926

1 if you had the Ribicic statement as well as the Pajic

2 one, and what the Defence and Chamber do with it, of

3 course, is certainly within his or her own judgement as

4 appropriate.

5 Is that responsive, Judge Bennouna?

6 I think it would be helpful, of course, to

7 have the Pajic material, much of which will be

8 recognisable in the Ribicic statement, but there are

9 other issues.

10 JUDGE MAY: Well, we have to decide, first of

11 all, whether the evidence of Dr. Ribicic would be

12 admissible at this stage. Then, no doubt, we could go

13 on to decide how precisely we can deal with it in order

14 not to waste time. What we don't want is a lot of

15 evidence which is given twice, when it can be done more

16 shortly.

17 We'll consider this for a moment.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE MAY: We shall reject the motion and --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your

21 Honour.

22 JUDGE MAY: We shall reject the motion. We

23 shall not exclude this witness's evidence.

24 Rule 73 bis(E) permits the Prosecutor, if

25 it's in the interests of justice, to file a motion

Page 7927

1 allowing her to vary a decision as to which witnesses

2 are to be called.

3 In this particular case, from the outset

4 there has been a clear indication that evidence of this

5 type and dealing with this issue would be called. We

6 accept that there has been difficulties in finding an

7 expert, as there sometimes are in this particular field

8 in this particular region, and in those circumstances

9 we think that as much notice as can be given has been

10 given.

11 The Defence will suffer no prejudice or

12 unfairness as a result of calling this witness,

13 provided, of course, that the Rules as to proper notice

14 of expert evidence are given and that they have the

15 time in which to consider the document before being

16 called upon to cross-examine or make a decision about

17 it.

18 In those circumstances, although it's right

19 that in other cases we have refused any extra or

20 additional evidence, those related to fact witnesses,

21 as I recall, in this particular case we think it's in

22 the interests of justice to allow the witness to be

23 called.

24 I may finally add this: How the witness is

25 to be called, having regard to the other evidence on

Page 7928

1 the topic, we can perhaps leave for consideration.

2 MR. NICE: Thank you.

3 Before we separate until, I think, next

4 Monday, and while the last witness's testimony is in

5 mind, and in particular the documents she produced

6 right at the end, I'm in a position to tell the Chamber

7 and, indeed, to show to the Chamber, if they want it,

8 and certainly to my friends for the defendants, that

9 what she produced were two certificates, two

10 International Committee of the Red Cross certificates,

11 covering the detention and release of her two

12 relations, husband and son. I don't think that they

13 conflict with the evidence that she's given. She may

14 have misunderstood the documents herself, but I'll show

15 them to Mr. Kovacic.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now,

17 and the Court will sit again next Monday, half past

18 9.00.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

20 5.24 p.m., to be reconvened on

21 Monday, the 11th day of October, 1999,

22 at 9.30 a.m.

23

24

25