Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8391

1 Thursday, 14th October, 1999

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.30 a.m.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours,

7 IT-95-14/2-T. The Prosecutor versus Dario Kordic and

8 Mario Cerkez.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

10 MR. NICE: The diary. Yesterday afternoon it

11 became clear, when the witness was spoken to on the

12 narrow issue of the diary, there were some passages in

13 the diary that he regards as personal, and that he

14 didn't want poured over by others.

15 I had to make a decision, given the order of

16 the Court, that the witness shouldn't be spoken to

17 about his evidence, as to the best way to get around

18 the problem. And I hope the Court won't object that I

19 suggested that, frankly, Mr. Kovacic speak directly to

20 him about it. They speak the same language. And

21 though I was present and there was an interpreter

22 telling me roughly what was going on, I just let them

23 get on with it. It seemed a sensible solution.

24 I understand that there is now really no

25 dispute, (a), as to the genuineness of the documents

Page 8392

1 and the copies that we've got and, indeed, no dispute

2 as to the fact that there are passages that are

3 personal and that the witness would rather justifiably

4 keep to himself.

5 That, I think, leaves the position that

6 what's extracted by us is not challenged as a genuine

7 and proper extract. And I know that when

8 Mr. Lopez-Terres selected the material he put in the

9 summary, he selected on the basis that he thought the

10 whole document would go in as a useful work of --

11 available reference, a useful part of the library to

12 which we may all turn in due course if, as so

13 frequently happens, something of detail becomes of

14 value to one side or the other, in particular, matters

15 of timing and things like that.

16 So we would invite the Chamber to consider,

17 in light of the new position, and the new information

18 about the diary, the desirability of admitting it,

19 because it may well solve problems later and save time

20 generally.

21 JUDGE MAY: There is a vast amount of paper

22 in this case.

23 MR. NICE: I understand that. And, of

24 course -- I understand that. Some of that paper, for

25 example, the ECMM reports that both sides produce and

Page 8393

1 want to be produced, will serve as libraries, that is

2 the same material to which reference may be made, but

3 which doesn't have to be poured over by the Chamber or

4 by those assisting the Chamber in the preparation of

5 final documentation. But sometimes libraries are

6 useful because they can suddenly become of value.

7 JUDGE MAY: I'll hear what the Defence have

8 to say.

9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I

10 believe that yesterday's ruling stands and that we

11 shouldn't be re-examining it.

12 As for the issues raised in connection with

13 that document, I would say the following: First of

14 all, as my learned friend has said, the Defence is not

15 disputing the authenticity of the copy. As the witness

16 said towards the end of the hearing yesterday, we are

17 not challenging that at all. We do indeed believe that

18 the copies that have been produced are authentic copies

19 of the original.

20 A second point has to do with the wholeness

21 of the document. We accept what the witness has said,

22 that the sections which we have not seen refer

23 exclusively to private matters. What is important here

24 is that neither side, neither the Prosecution nor the

25 Defence, has received those sections. Each side has

Page 8394

1 the same document and the witness has just kept for

2 himself, as he says, private notes that are in no way

3 related to the extracts that we have received.

4 The fourth point that has to be raised is the

5 question of ownership of this document, because, after

6 all, it is not quite clear whether this document, in

7 view of the position he held at the time he wrote it,

8 is it his property or the property of the authorities

9 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 JUDGE MAY: It may be sensible to leave this

11 ruling until we've heard the cross-examination, and

12 then make a ruling on the document.

13 Yes, Mr. Sayers.

14 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, we don't have any

15 position with respect to the diary. I wonder if, after

16 the witness has testified, we could have a minute or

17 two with the Court relating to the proposed testimony

18 for the next witness.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Certainly.

20 Now, who is going to cross-examine first?

21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] The Cerkez

22 defence, Your Honours.


24 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Rebihic. As you heard

Page 8395

1 yesterday, I represent the defence of Mr. Cerkez,

2 together with my colleague, Mr. Mikulicic. I am an

3 attorney from Rijeka. Should you fail to understand

4 any part of my question, please ask me to repeat that

5 question, without any hesitation. And please let us

6 try and be as expeditious as possible so as not to

7 waste time, and to bear in mind that what we are saying

8 is being interpreted and, therefore, we should make

9 breaks between the questions and answers.

10 Fine. Tell me, please, at the beginning you

11 informed us very briefly about your life and career

12 prior to the conflict. May I just ask you,

13 additionally, what you did between 1990, when you left

14 MUP and retired, until 1992, when you joined the TO?

15 A. I dedicated myself to my family.

16 Q. So in that period of time you had no position

17 in any institution?

18 A. No, I didn't.

19 Q. Thank you. Let me remind you, during your

20 testimony you said that, among other things, Sefkija

21 Djidic said that Cerkez was one of the people who had

22 probably distributed weapons from the SPS to the HVO,

23 that is the Croats. Do you remember that?

24 A. Yes, I do.

25 Q. Let us refresh our memory. Is it true to say

Page 8396

1 that towards the end of 1991 already, the JNA

2 confiscated the weapons of the Territorial Defence and

3 had it stored in barracks?

4 A. Yes. The arms of Territorial Defence units,

5 but the weapons of organisations of associated labour

6 remained.

7 Q. Yes. But the JNA tried to seize some of

8 those weapons as well; is that true?

9 A. As I was not active during that time, I'm not

10 aware of that.

11 Q. Did you know anything about the fact that

12 certain decisions were taken by the management of the

13 factory, I think these were related to decisions of the

14 municipal authorities at the time, on the distribution

15 of small arms to certain individuals in the factory and

16 in the municipality, depending on the positions they

17 held?

18 A. At the time, no, but I know later on when

19 heavy weapons were being distributed, like

20 anti-aircraft guns, I know that with relation to those,

21 a decision was taken to share them half, half, between

22 the TO and the HVO.

23 Q. But the weapons that were being used by --

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

25 Mr. Kovacic, I think you didn't keep your promise from

Page 8397

1 the beginning, because this really is too fast for the

2 interpretation, and it is difficult to follow. So will

3 you please slow down a little bit. I think it's easier

4 to follow the content if you go more slowly.

5 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise,

6 Your Honours. My fault.

7 Q. So what you just said, heavy weapons in the

8 possession of the factory for its own protection in the

9 event of war were distributed by agreement between the

10 TO and the HVO?

11 A. I know that such an agreement was reached,

12 but how it actually was distributed, I do not know.

13 Q. Very well. But then you learnt that some

14 small arms were also distributed, if I understood you

15 well.

16 A. I don't think I said that.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 You mentioned that Cerkez was the assistant

19 in Stjepan Tomasevic and that later he became brigade

20 commander; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know when, exactly, Cerkez became

23 commander of the Vitez Brigade?

24 A. At the time, I was in Visoko, so I can't tell

25 you exactly. I was at the front.

Page 8398

1 Q. But do you know roughly when this happened?

2 A. I think it was in the summer of 1992.

3 Q. So you do not know that the Vitez Brigade --

4 JUDGE MAY: The witness's stated knowledge,

5 really, at this point, doesn't seem to be very

6 relevant. As far as the Trial Chamber is concerned,

7 we'll have evidence as to when Mr. Cerkez took over.

8 And Mr. Kovacic, with respect, there is no need to go

9 through this with every witness.

10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. You devoted a considerable amount of the time

12 during your testimony yesterday to incidents that

13 occurred in Vitez and the surroundings, or rather in

14 the municipality. Can we agree that in fact the

15 majority of those incidents occurred between autumn '92

16 and the beginning of 1993?

17 A. Those were the most turbulent times.

18 Q. Yes, indeed. Would you agree that the

19 incidents were provoked by both sides?

20 A. No, I wouldn't agree.

21 Q. You claim that all incidents in that period

22 were provoked by the Croats and HVO members, and that

23 there wasn't a single incident provoked by members of

24 the BH army or any individuals, independent

25 individuals?

Page 8399

1 A. I can't say that there wasn't a single

2 incident, but the vast majority of incidents was

3 provoked by the conduct of the HVO.

4 Q. In this Trial Chamber, through some other

5 witnesses, we have seen reports by Ivan Budimir. Do

6 you recall? As an intelligence officer, you must have

7 been aware of that.

8 A. No, at the time, I was not an intelligence

9 officer. I acquired that role in May 1993. At the

10 time, I was deputy commander of a voluntary detachment

11 participating in the battle front in Visoko.

12 Afterwards I was a co-ordinator of those units, and

13 later on assistant commander for training, so I was not

14 an intelligence officer at the time.

15 Q. Tell us, Mr. Rebihic, but during this period,

16 end of '92 and beginning of 1993, you were in Vitez?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you remember, for instance, the event of

19 the 20th of November '92, when certain members of the

20 BH army seriously wounded six members of the HVO

21 military police and two civilians, confiscated their

22 weapons, and among those BH army members was somebody

23 called Edin Livnjak, known as Dino? This was a story

24 that was widespread at the time. Do you remember that

25 event?

Page 8400

1 A. I do remember some story to that effect.

2 Whether I was in Vitez at the time, or Bijelo Bucje, or

3 in Visoko, I don't know, but I did hear about that

4 incident.

5 Q. Do you remember the incident of the 13th of

6 January, 1993, in Vitez, when again, members of the

7 army captured and disarmed eight HVO members, and then

8 that there were negotiations between Sefkija Dzidic and

9 Pasko Ljubicic about the restoration of their weapons?

10 A. If my memory is correct, this must have been

11 in the territory of Zabilje. This was in response to a

12 previous incident, when, again, I can't remember the

13 exact number of members of the BH army went to take

14 over their shift in Bijelo Bucje, and they were not

15 allowed to pass, and they were disarmed and their

16 weapons confiscated. And then came the reaction, and I

17 think that that was when those home-made explosive

18 devices were found on them, if that is what we are

19 talking about, known as MRUD.

20 Q. You use the word "reaction." Weren't all

21 incidents a kind of action and reaction, a

22 cause-and-effect relationship between them?

23 A. I cannot allege that, because a very large

24 number of incidents were directed against innocent

25 civilians without any cause.

Page 8401

1 Q. Do you remember, for instance, the 17th of

2 January, 93, in Sadovace, when again a group of members

3 of the BH army captured seven HVO members?

4 A. That is precisely what I was talking about.

5 Q. That is the town 110?

6 A. Yes, that is what I was referring to.

7 Q. Do you remember the 17th of January, in

8 Kruscice, when members of the army disarmed 17 HVO

9 members coming from the front, near Turbe?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Apropos, do you remember -- and this was

12 outside Vitez municipality -- that on several occasions

13 members of the HVO who were going to the front line

14 against the Serbs near Turbe were stopped, searched,

15 identified, and so on, and there was a lot of talk

16 about that?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Let me not list all the other incidents. You

19 agree, therefore, that there were incidents on both

20 sides, but mainly that the blame lay with the Croatian

21 side?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. As a local, you could distinguish between

24 local people and others, and in connection with those

25 incidents yesterday, you mentioned members of the

Page 8402

1 Ludvig Pavlovic Brigade, whom you had referred to as

2 Herzegovinians?

3 A. I didn't know what their exact name was, but

4 these were people from Herzegovina. They could be

5 recognised by their dialect.

6 Q. From your testimony yesterday, it follows

7 that they caused quite a lot of disturbance in town; is

8 that true?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Would you agree that the Vitezovi also

11 provoked unrest in the town?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can we agree that the situation in the town

14 and the surroundings was rather disorderly?

15 A. What do you mean, "disorderly"?

16 Q. I mean there was a lot of uncertainty,

17 frequent infractions of the peace.

18 A. I would say that all this was provoked

19 intentionally.

20 Q. Regarding the Herzegovinians, I found a note

21 in your diary which I think refers to the 12th of

22 January, 1993, when you explicitly mention the presence

23 of HVO units from Herzegovina in Vitez, and their

24 temporary accommodation, after which they would be sent

25 to the battle front in the region of Mt. Vlasic?

Page 8403

1 A. Yes, we had information to that effect.

2 Q. And finally, they did leave Vitez, but they

3 never went to Vlasic?

4 A. No, not to Vlasic, but they left Vitez. It

5 is a fact that some of them were seen later on. Some

6 may have left, but some did not.

7 Q. Tell me, please, Witness, in the course of

8 1992, in Vitez municipality, a crisis staff of the

9 municipality was formed with representatives of both

10 peoples and people appointed ex officio?

11 A. Yes, I am aware of that.

12 Q. Were you ever invited to attend meetings of

13 that institution in connection with assignments that it

14 issued or reports that needed to be given on events?

15 A. No.

16 Q. So, personally, you were never invited?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Would you agree that the main aim of that

19 Crisis Staff was to try and maintain peace in Vitez

20 municipality?

21 A. Yes, throughout we sought to keep the peace.

22 Q. The politicians on both sides and as well as

23 representatives of the armed forces of both sides, that

24 is the TO and the army and the HVO and the other,

25 participated in those endeavours to keep the peace and

Page 8404

1 to maintain balanced relationships?

2 A. Yes, talks were held regularly, but the

3 conclusions of those talks were not implemented.

4 Q. Among other incidents, you mentioned one,

5 which I thought was particularly unfortunate. You said

6 that some HVO soldiers had entered a school, a

7 classroom, and forced Muslim children to remain

8 standing for 50 minutes. Do you have any knowledge as

9 to who those people were, which soldiers?

10 A. We received that report from the parents of

11 those children, and after that Muslim children no

12 longer went to school. They stopped going to school.

13 And I do not know who they were.

14 Q. In view of the fact that this occurred at the

15 end of January 1993, did anyone on your side try to

16 investigate this incident?

17 A. It was not within my mandate to investigate

18 those things, and I am not aware whether anyone else

19 did.

20 Q. In your diary there is an entry for the 20th

21 of August 1992. I would call it an incident. And you

22 noted that a certain Medugorac from Cajdras with

23 another four persons demolished facilities in town.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Tell me, please, trying to establish what

Page 8405

1 this is about, I found that this Medugorac was a member

2 of the HOS, as far as I know. Are you aware of that or

3 not?

4 A. No, I am not aware of that.

5 Q. His name could have been Jako. Are you quite

6 sure that his name was Goran?

7 A. No, I'm not sure. Those were reports that

8 were available at the time.

9 Q. Perhaps this might refresh your memory. Jako

10 Medugorac, who was registered as a member of HOS, was

11 taken into custody a little later in Kaonik because of

12 a crime he had committed.

13 A. I am not aware of that.

14 Q. You hadn't heard that the Croatian military

15 police or, rather, the HVO military police had arrested

16 him there?

17 A. No. I only heard about Miroslav Bralo.

18 Q. You told us yesterday about the line-up of

19 the HVO in Vitez in the summer of 1992. Let us clear

20 that up a little. The parade was held in August 1992;

21 isn't that true?

22 A. I said that I was in Visoko, so I didn't

23 watch the parade, but only later, from the media, from

24 the local television, I learnt about it.

25 Q. Tell us, you know that before this parade, a

Page 8406

1 couple of months before that there was a similar

2 ceremony of the Territorial Defence forces?

3 A. Yes, outside the secondary school centre.

4 Q. So both sides would invite representatives of

5 the other side to those ceremonies?

6 A. That was customary.

7 Q. Both those ceremonies were not held in any

8 kind of secrecy; on the contrary, they were televised?

9 Please say "yes" for the record.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You told us that you were not there and that

12 you just saw a report on television about it.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Do you claim that you saw Cerkez delivering a

15 speech on television?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you see him surveying the units?

18 A. Not personally. On television.

19 Q. But the voice of the commentator that we

20 heard on the video, was that the voice of Anto

21 Marijanovic? Yesterday we could see clearly that Anto

22 Marijanovic was making the speech.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So he was the one speaking at the parade?

25 A. Yes, before the official touring of the

Page 8407

1 units. Then first came the speech and then the review

2 of the units.

3 Q. Do you know the name of the commentator?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Do you know that anyone else made a speech?

6 Did you see anyone else?

7 A. I said that on local television I saw the

8 speech, I saw Cerkez in person. I didn't see

9 Marijanovic, because I just happened to look when this

10 was being broadcast. So I didn't watch the whole

11 event.

12 Q. At the time, so we are talking about the

13 summer of 1992, the aggression of the JNA against

14 Bosnia was fierce; it was under way at the time? There

15 is no doubt about that, is there?

16 A. No. And that is why I placed my services at

17 the disposal of the staff.

18 Q. Did both these parades symbolise preparations

19 of both Muslims and Croats for the struggle against a

20 common enemy and for the defence of their territories?

21 A. That is what it appeared to be.

22 Q. Is it a fact that within this small territory

23 of your municipality and the surrounding

24 municipalities, the TO, which has grown into the army

25 and the HVO, jointly held the front towards the Serbs?

Page 8408

1 A. I cannot be certain about that. In the case

2 of Vitez, I cannot know for other areas. But I am -- I

3 was a participant, together with other TO members, by

4 then army members, and we regularly held the front line

5 at Visoko and the area of Bijelo Buce, and on one

6 occasion just above Turbe.

7 Q. So these areas just above Turbe, you will

8 agree that the HVO from Vitez also held a part of the

9 line?

10 A. At the time I was probably in Visoko.

11 Q. But, for instance, in March and April, in

12 February 1993, at the beginning of 1993, while you were

13 still there, the HVO kept a part of the front line at

14 Strikanac, Lopar with at least two platoons?

15 A. I am not aware of that. I know that the HVO

16 was located with its artillery in the area of

17 Mescema, in the second line its task being to provide

18 support, if necessary.

19 Q. You were in Bijelo Buce, above Goles. This

20 position was trigometric point 60. I don't know the

21 trigometric point, the grid reference number. Ibrahim

22 Puric was the commander there, wasn't he?

23 A. Not in the Vitez unit.

24 Q. No, but I am talking about your unit at that

25 position.

Page 8409

1 A. No. His name was Puric, but his first name

2 was not Ibrahim. He was killed.

3 Q. Very well. So on the flank of that line,

4 wasn't there Kamenjas, Lopar, a sector which was held

5 by the HVO?

6 A. I believe that that belongs to the Novi

7 Travnik area. Kamenjas does belong there. I heard of

8 that position, but I can't give you any details because

9 I wasn't there.

10 Q. You said that you were in Bijelo Buce?

11 A. Yes, but only when I went to review the

12 positions. I said that I was the co-ordinator of the

13 units, and as the co-ordinator I was in charge of the

14 timely shift changes and the full -- and keeping the

15 manpower at its full strength. And so I only came to

16 the Bijelo Buce when I would come into the village to

17 the school building in order to ascertain what was

18 needed for the troops.

19 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Mr. Kovacic,

20 you've asked a great deal about this. Do you want to

21 pursue the matter? In which case, I shall ask a

22 question. Or we must move onto another topic.

23 Mr. Rebihic, were there HVO troops on the

24 front line or not? Could you just answer that, whether

25 there were or not?

Page 8410

1 A. No.

2 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

3 Mr. Kovacic, it seems little point going on

4 with this. If you want to call other evidence about

5 it, you are welcome to do so.

6 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Q. Just one follow-up question regarding the

8 ceremony and the parade. From what we could glean on

9 the TV report, there were a number of women wearing

10 camouflage uniforms. I believe there were even some

11 camouflage skirts. Was this a usual thing at the time?

12 A. I did see several young women in uniforms.

13 Q. Would that necessarily mean that they were

14 members of the army or would that have been some kind

15 of a trend or even fashion, to just don parts of the

16 uniform?

17 A. I really cannot comment on that.

18 Q. Thank you. So after the parade, at that time

19 in Vitez there was a Territorial Defence staff and

20 also, with respect to the HVO, that is its military

21 side, there was the HVO headquarters. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And the HVO headquarters was the branch,

24 so-to-speak, of the HVO authority in Vitez, which was

25 in charge of the military?

Page 8411

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In 1992, basically these were volunteers who

3 would go on the shift and carry out their tasks?

4 A. That is how it was.

5 Q. Is it true that Marijan Skopljak was chief of

6 staff?

7 A. As far as I know, Marijan Skopljak held a

8 position in the Ministry of Defence.

9 Q. You mean in 1993?

10 A. I don't know about later on. I know that he

11 was in that position, but I don't know if he was then

12 replaced by someone else.

13 Q. So in your understanding, in 1992 he was a

14 municipal chief of defence?

15 A. That is how I -- that is what I knew about

16 him.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you. You also gave

18 evidence that on the 19th October 1992, in the evening

19 hours, you saw a massing of the HVO troops in front of

20 the hotel, and in that area of Vitez, that is where the

21 police station was and the gas station?

22 A. You mean in the evening?

23 Q. Yes, evening.

24 A. 19 October. What I was referring to was the

25 gathering of members at -- at midday. I don't know if

Page 8412

1 that's what you were referring to.

2 Q. Yes. You said that you saw a large number of

3 vehicles, a lot of HVO soldiers, and among other

4 vehicles there was a Raba and then a truck and then

5 there was an anti-aircraft gun and -- is that what you

6 said?

7 A. Yes, that is what I said. But that happened

8 during the day.

9 Q. Very well. So it was during the day. You

10 later stated that you received reports that in Novi

11 Travnik only 27 HVO members from Vitez were registered;

12 is that correct?

13 A. Yes. We received that in a fax transmission

14 from the HVO -- from the headquarters in Novi Travnik.

15 Q. My question is as follows: If that was the

16 size of the force -- in other words, only 27 members --

17 where did the balance of the force go?

18 A. I don't know that.

19 Q. But 27 is a number which is less than what

20 you had assessed previously?

21 A. What I said --

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, don't argue, please,

23 with the witness. He said he doesn't know. Now, if a

24 witness says he doesn't know, there is no point

25 pursuing it. You can make your own comments in due

Page 8413

1 course when you come to address the Court; you can call

2 witnesses. But let us move on, rather than trying to

3 argue with the witnesses to get them to agree to your

4 point of view, which they may well be unwilling to do.

5 So now let's go on from this.

6 MR. KOVACIC: I apologise, Your Honour, if

7 that was the impression.

8 Q. Let me refer you to your diary. In it, in

9 the entry of 31 October, which is twelve days later,

10 you refer to the list of the names.

11 A. Yes, I said that we received a fax

12 transmission from the TO headquarters with that list.

13 Q. I'll ask you several questions regarding this

14 list. First of all, did you have any knowledge that at

15 least a majority of the names on that list were of HOS

16 members?

17 A. I did not research the list, I just noted

18 down as it came, because it was not my task to do so.

19 Q. Do you remember that at the same time, the

20 HVO units from the surrounding municipalities,

21 including Vitez, did send significant forces to fight

22 in the defence of Jajce against the Serbs?

23 A. No, I'm not aware of that.

24 Q. Let us move on. You mentioned a meeting held

25 in the night between the 19th and 20th of October

Page 8414

1 1992. You said that at that time a man was already

2 killed at the barricade in Ahmici.

3 A. Yes, this was a man called Salkic, or perhaps

4 Pezer.

5 Q. Didn't you, then, maybe enter the time of the

6 meeting in error? Because the purpose of the meeting

7 and the other two meetings which took place on that day

8 and that evening when the barricade was erected, the

9 purpose was to find a solution; that is, before the

10 incident at the barricade took place?

11 A. The incident at the barricade did occur on

12 that day.

13 Q. But you don't recall when the meetings took

14 place a day before that confrontation at the

15 barricade? Or was it not then?

16 A. The meeting you are referring to was after

17 the incident, and its purpose was to try to calm down

18 the situation and to overcome the misunderstandings and

19 to avoid the conflict. That was the purpose of the

20 meeting.

21 Q. Very well. Regardless of potential errors or

22 mistakes regarding the date, do you recall that on the

23 eve of the conflict at the barricade, there were also

24 several meetings?

25 A. But not at the headquarters.

Page 8415

1 Q. No, no, not at the headquarters, but members

2 of the headquarters participated at it. Mr. Dzidic was

3 there, politicians were there, solutions were being

4 sought, there was an attempt made to overcome the

5 problem? Just say "I know," "I don't know," "I

6 remember," or not.

7 A. I only recall the meeting the next day at the

8 post office, where the UNPROFOR representatives

9 mediated, as well as other European officials, with the

10 aim to calm down the situation.

11 Q. Very well. You spoke about the attack

12 against the TO, and you mentioned the Dzidic/Cerkez

13 conversation over the phone, and you claimed that

14 Cerkez said that it was Darko Kraljevic's Vitezovi who

15 was attacking the TO?

16 A. I was talking on the phone with Dzidic, and

17 when Dzidic was telling Cerkez about the situation that

18 was going on around the TO, I clearly heard Cerkez

19 saying that it wasn't his units but Darko's units that

20 were doing this.

21 Q. Thank you. And that information was further

22 corroborated through other sources?

23 A. I never did corroborate it.

24 Q. So you agree that these were not those

25 troops?

Page 8416

1 A. I didn't see them, and I didn't know. Then

2 we were transferred, we moved to Stari Vitez, and I

3 never followed it up in any way.

4 Q. So you were not trying to find out what unit

5 forced the headquarters to relocate?

6 A. No, and it was not my duty.

7 Q. Very well. Now that we've touched on the HOS

8 and Darko Kraljevic, throughout this period, he had an

9 independent force in Vitez and the surroundings,

10 especially in certain parts of that area?

11 A. I don't know if he was independent, but I

12 only know that he commanded these troops in that

13 period.

14 Q. You mean Kraljevic did?

15 A. Yes, Kraljevic.

16 Q. And the areas where they were present, more

17 or less, would they include Kolonija, Rijeka? That is,

18 the southern part of Kruscica, around the forestry?

19 A. Well, that is where he lived. That is where

20 his home was. That is where they gathered.

21 Q. In Dubravica?

22 A. Well, yes, he was at the school in

23 Dubravica. That was noted.

24 Q. You mentioned the killing of two ABiH

25 soldiers at the Kruscica road near Pero Skopljak's

Page 8417

1 house?

2 A. No, not Pero Skopljak's house; Marijan

3 Skopljak's house.

4 Q. My apologies. You're absolutely right. It

5 was Marijan Skopljak's house. You said that those

6 people were killed by some Croats. So these were not

7 members of the HVO units?

8 A. I clearly stated that those members of the

9 army were in some coffee bar, and they found there

10 several armed members of -- I don't know what unit, but

11 they were Croatian soldiers who left before the ABiH

12 army left, and set up an ambush, and these two members

13 of the ABiH were killed.

14 Q. You also mentioned that mixed or joint

15 investigative teams were set up to investigate these

16 crimes, and they didn't come up with anything?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And they were mixed?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And they produced no results?

21 A. That is correct.

22 Q. And you said that in respect of this specific

23 incident, nothing happened?

24 A. I am not aware of this case ever being

25 solved.

Page 8418

1 Q. Let me read to you what Mr. Ramo Vatres says

2 of this on the 24th of September, '97.

3 JUDGE MAY: No, there's no point trying to

4 get this witness to comment on what somebody else may

5 have said somewhere. I don't know, Mr. Kovacic, what

6 you were going to read from, but there's little point

7 in that. He said that he wasn't aware of the case

8 being solved, and that's as far as you can take it with

9 him. Now, it may be that there is some other evidence

10 that you can call upon the subject, in which case, do

11 so. But again, there is little point arguing with a

12 witness who says he doesn't know.

13 Can we move on, please.

14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, of

15 course I accept this. I would just like the Chamber to

16 know that we have no proof, but we received this

17 statement from the Prosecution. It was given by a

18 witness who apparently was not going to be called, and

19 this is the only opportunity I have to put it to the

20 witness and see if he has any recollection about it.

21 JUDGE MAY: You can attempt to put it in; it

22 may be that it's something which the Prosecution will

23 agree. But you can put the matter in whatever way that

24 you choose in due course.

25 Do you know anything more about this

Page 8419

1 particular case, Mr. Rebihic, than what you've already

2 told us?

3 A. Nothing else. This is all.

4 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

5 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Let's move on. You mentioned that the only

7 case that you were aware of where criminal proceedings

8 were instituted against someone, an individual called

9 Bralo, or Cicko?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Can you say, on the basis of any fact, that

12 he was a member either of the Stjepan Tomasevic or

13 Viteska brigades at any time?

14 A. I do not know a member of which unit he may

15 have been, but through a conversation with a soldier

16 who was detained -- actually captured by the TO

17 headquarters. In fact, he came to the front line on

18 his own will, and perhaps not knowing that that is

19 where the front lines were, so he just showed up

20 there. So in talking to him, I learned that when he

21 spoke -- that he had heard of Bralo when Vladimir

22 Santic referred to him and said, "Now that Cicko has

23 arrived, you'll see how things are getting done."

24 Q. Very well. Let's move on. You mentioned the

25 presence of the Tigers or Tigrovi of General Praljak,

Page 8420

1 and this was a delegation which included Arif Pasalic,

2 Jasmin Jaganjac, Anto Prkacin, the only Croatian

3 general in the BH army, and they came to discuss the

4 joint command and the strengthening of the joint

5 defence against the JNA aggression?

6 A. Yes, I do recall it.

7 Q. Very well. You were notified in advance that

8 these meetings at the highest level were to take place?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the Tigers to whom you referred were the

11 escort of this delegation; is that correct?

12 A. Yes. That was the information received.

13 Q. And, Mr. Rebihic, we will agree that they

14 just passed through Vitez?

15 A. I know nothing other than that.

16 Q. Did you see them in Vitez at any time later?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you hear anything about them?

19 A. Later on, there was a reference made about

20 them.

21 Q. But you don't know who the source was?

22 A. No.

23 Q. While we are at it, wasn't there talk about

24 this joint command which was to be established, that it

25 should include Merdan from the BiH side, and Nakic from

Page 8421

1 the HVO side, who would be the point persons in this

2 joint command?

3 A. Yes. And they started operating and their

4 headquarters was in Travnik.

5 Q. Let's move on to the next incident when you

6 were arrested when driving in a vehicle. You were

7 going to Travnik?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. On this road between Vitez and Travnik, at

10 that time which is immediately preceding the conflict,

11 how many checkpoints were there which one had to clear

12 to when moving from Vitez to Travnik?

13 A. I started from Stari Vitez towards Travnik,

14 and the official checkpoint was at the intersection of

15 Novi Travnik and Vitez.

16 Q. And who held that checkpoint?

17 A. I don't know who held.

18 Q. You don't know who held it?

19 A. I only know that it was Croatian troops, but

20 the soldier who made me step out of the car --

21 Q. I'm sorry, we'll get to that point. But do

22 you know at least whether that was a military

23 checkpoint or a police checkpoint?

24 A. I only know that they had camouflage uniforms

25 on. I don't know whether they were police or not.

Page 8422

1 Q. There were no other checkpoints on that

2 stretch?

3 A. No.

4 Q. No checkpoints controlled by the BiH side?

5 A. Not in that area.

6 Q. You were arrested and taken to Dolac, if I

7 understood you correctly?

8 A. Yes, Dolac.

9 Q. Dolac, the place where you were arrested, is

10 within Travnik municipality?

11 A. I was arrested at the crossroads and driven

12 to Dolac, where there was also a unit of the HVO.

13 Again I saw HVO members in uniform.

14 Q. But Dolac is outside Vitez municipality?

15 A. Dolac does not belong to Vitez municipality.

16 Q. Finally, you told us, after the mistreatment

17 and your release, the vehicle, you learnt, was retained

18 by Darko Kraljevic. Did you ask him to give it back?

19 A. I said that I never had any contact with

20 him. This was what I was told at the checkpoint, at

21 the crossroads. I know that the commander, Sefkija,

22 intervened with Cerkez to ask for the vehicle to be

23 returned.

24 Q. But relations between Sefkija and Cerkez were

25 correct, were they not, throughout that time?

Page 8423

1 A. As far as I know, yes.

2 Q. When anything needed to be done quickly, the

3 two of them understood one another and spoke quite

4 frankly?

5 A. Yes, they were acquaintances and they got on

6 quite well. I can't get into any details, but I think

7 they did cooperate.

8 Q. One further point. Those who arrested you,

9 were they the military police?

10 A. I don't know whether they were the military

11 police. I was quite shocked at the time.

12 Q. Do you remember any visible insignia on them?

13 A. Yes. At the checkpoint there were people

14 with the military police insignia on their left

15 sleeves. Yes. Yes.

16 Q. You also mentioned, on the 14th of April, a

17 group of Muslims from Vitez going to work in Bratsvo in

18 Novi Travnik were also arrested. They were arrested in

19 the territory of Novi Travnik municipality; were they

20 not?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Do you know which unit arrested them?

23 A. No, I don't.

24 Q. Thank you. You also mentioned that the

25 anniversary was being observed of the formation of BiH,

Page 8424

1 and you said that Cerkez came as a guest and that you

2 yourself spoke to him?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Mr. Rebihic, some of the activities connected

5 to the celebration were held during the 14th and the

6 15th, over two days in other words. Do you remember

7 that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you agree that Cerkez was in the premises

10 of the municipal TO staff in connection with that

11 celebration on the 14th of April?

12 A. No, I didn't see him.

13 Q. So you claim that the day you met him was the

14 15th, and you are quite sure it was the 15th?

15 A. Unless I've become senile. But, you know,

16 it's been a long time.

17 Q. Then on the 15th in the evening you saw again

18 concentrations of various HVO units in Vitez, in the

19 evening. You saw that yourself, or did you receive

20 reports to that effect, or was it a combination of

21 both?

22 A. I personally could not have seen it, because

23 I wasn't in town and I didn't say I saw it. We were

24 informed by telephone, by citizens from town. And this

25 was also confirmed by an officer of the British

Page 8425

1 Battalion, Captain Matthews.

2 Q. So it means you learnt about the

3 concentration of troops?

4 A. I was present when this officer was conveying

5 this report to Commander Sefkija.

6 Q. A little earlier on, let us go back to the

7 3rd of March, I think it was, when you said that the

8 Croats had hoisted their flag in the SPS. Talking

9 about the flag, do you remember that at the beginning

10 of April, during celebrations of Bajram in 1993, a

11 large flag was hoisted in Vitez near Vitcom across the

12 whole road which you had to pass going to Stari Vitez,

13 and that it was therefore a long time?

14 A. I think it was not at Vitcom. The flag was

15 hoisted in the immediate vicinity of the mosque.

16 Vitcom is too far away for the flag to be there.

17 Q. Yes. But we are talking about the same road?

18 A. Yes. But it was a large one.

19 Q. Yes. Like transparency. Don't you remember

20 that there was some dissatisfaction over this flag?

21 And anyway, whose flag was it?

22 A. Well, you see, we in the staff sought at all

23 cost to avoid provoking any potential reaction, and in

24 the course of the Bajram festivities it is customary,

25 it is a religious flag of the faithful that we had

Page 8426

1 hoisted there.

2 Q. It stood there for some time, and none of the

3 Croats made a fuss about it, did they?

4 A. It is true, that it stood there.

5 Q. This flag in the SPS did cause a lot of

6 concern among certain currents on the Muslim side?

7 A. This flag was hoisted in an organisation of

8 associated labour, at the entrance, at the gate leading

9 to the company.

10 Q. Thank you. You said that on the first day of

11 the conflict, with a hand-held transmitter, which you

12 called a walkie-talkie, you were intercepting HVO radio

13 communications?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you have any more sophisticated equipment

16 for interception of radio communications?

17 A. Our equipment was extremely modest.

18 Q. So you only used this hand-held

19 transmitter/receiver for interception, nothing more?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you tell us exactly what kind of radio

22 transmitter it was, its brand, its type?

23 A. I can't tell you the brand. We received

24 those radio transmitters --

25 JUDGE MAY: [Microphone not activated] --

Page 8427

1 what the brand was. Can we not move on? This sort of

2 detail doesn't assist the Trial Chamber.

3 Now, Mr. Kovacic, is there any dispute about

4 this particular conversation? There is?

5 MR. KOVACIC: Certainly. Yes, sir.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

7 MR. KOVACIC: If I may just briefly -- one

8 statement, sir. [Interpretation] We believe that

9 technically it was impossible for him to intercept, but

10 I will ask the witness. The statements referred to are

11 misinterpreted, but I wanted first to show that this

12 was not possible. And I must try to prove that,

13 otherwise I will have to bring expert witnesses who

14 will be able to testify as to radio stations and their

15 capacities.

16 My plan is to show him pictures of some radio

17 transmitters used by the HVO, to recognise them and to

18 tell us whether they had such equipment or not.

19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Rebihic, do you know what

20 sort of a radio it was?

21 A. I can describe it very well. I don't know

22 the brand, because we received them, I think it was on

23 the 7th of April from our workers from Switzerland. I

24 personally went to Rijeka to pick up the equipment and

25 vehicles.

Page 8428

1 JUDGE MAY: There has to be a limit to the

2 amount of evidence we can have on one particular

3 issue.

4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] So we are

5 through with his radio station.

6 JUDGE MAY: Now, you can put to the witness

7 these pictures, but do it quickly, please.

8 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Can I ask the

9 usher for his assistance, please?

10 Q. Mr. Rebihic, you will now be shown several

11 pages of photographs, so will you please look through

12 them and tell us whether you can identify any of that

13 equipment as being in the possession of the HVO in

14 Vitez or not?

15 A. I think there is no need for me to look,

16 because I didn't see the HVO radios.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, the issue is not

18 what the HVO had. The issue is what he heard. Now,

19 look, if you would, at these documents which are being

20 produced. They are not very good photocopies, anyway.

21 Just have a look, Mr. Rebihic, and see if you can

22 identify any of these or not.

23 A. It is similar to this radio station. I can't

24 say that that is it. I know it had three buttons, one

25 for channels, one for volume, and that is it, for sound

Page 8429

1 adjustment. But I don't know any further detail.

2 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Very well. Yes.

3 Let's go onto the next point.

4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. And you claim that listening to

6 communications among HVO members you were able to

7 recognise the voice in this case of Mario Cerkez?

8 A. It is not something I claim. It is something

9 I am absolutely certain of.

10 Q. Tell us, how did the participants identify

11 themselves?

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

13 Mr. Kovacic, allow me to say. You are aware of our

14 position regarding equality of arms. You cannot, in a

15 cross-examination, nevertheless, spend 20 minutes on

16 the same issue. We know what a cross-examination is.

17 You keep asking the same question to the witness.

18 Please, try and do your work within the framework of a

19 cross-examination, which is simply a verification of

20 the examination-in-chief. Now, this becomes really

21 excessive. This is not possible.

22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I'll do my

23 best, of course, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE MAY: You can ask him certainly how he

25 recognised Mr. Cerkez's voice. If you want to do that,

Page 8430

1 of course you can.

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Did you recognise Mr. Cerkez's voice by the

4 colour of the voice or the way in which he spoke and

5 how he punctuated his words?

6 A. I know Cerkez extremely well, because we

7 communicated, we conversed. I know by his way of

8 speech, by the sound, by the tone of his voice, that it

9 was Cerkez.

10 Q. Tell me, did the participants in these

11 communications identify themselves with numbers or did

12 they use pseudonyms?

13 A. They communicated with numbers, unit reports

14 to number 3, 23 reports to number so and so. But in

15 that conversation I clearly recognised the

16 participants, Cerkez and Marko Lujic. I know them very

17 well and I'm absolutely certain that I recognise them.

18 Q. So you heard Cerkez's conversation on two

19 occasions only?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And on that second occasion, it was a

22 conversation with Marko Lujic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And you gave us your interpretation, but let

25 me read what is written in your diary. This says,

Page 8431

1 "1317 hours: Mario, can you hit what you hit a moment

2 ago" -- that above the "K," that is "J," in brackets,

3 Jelovac -- "and do it well."

4 From this note of yours, it follows that the

5 voice that you recorded here, that this person is

6 addressing somebody called Mario rather than Mario

7 being the one who is speaking.

8 A. No. As soon as I heard the voice, I wrote

9 immediately the name "Mario," because I recognised

10 him. And then the text is quoted verbatim, what he

11 said. "Jelovac," in brackets, is what I wrote, because

12 I followed the previous fire, and it was directed in

13 that direction.

14 Q. But there is no colon after the word "Mario,"

15 and there are no quotation marks, but you will agree,

16 this was wartime; what did the other person say, then,

17 at the other end of the line?

18 A. Probably nothing, and that is why I didn't

19 note anything down.

20 Q. Very well. Now, tell me, what is most

21 important of all, regardless, whoever gave that order,

22 this "J" that you interpreted as being "Jelovac," what

23 kind of a target is it?

24 A. It is an elevation point. That was probably

25 an orientation for the targeting.

Page 8432

1 Q. So it's not a house, or a village, or a

2 hospital, or any other unacceptable target?

3 A. No, no. That is just the direction.

4 Q. Could you perhaps show us on a map where

5 Jelovac is?

6 A. I think I could.

7 Q. I think that we had a very good map from the

8 previous witness, Z2175. It's a very good copy, 2175.

9 JUDGE MAY: We haven't any exhibit, please.

10 A. I can't see this very well.

11 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps you

12 could help him.

13 Q. Please look, and then, when you find it, show

14 it to us.

15 A. I think it's here.

16 Krcevine, Gradac, I think it's here. This

17 one here [indicates].

18 Q. So it is elevation point 629?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Very well. Thank you.

21 Witness, will you tell me, please, whether

22 you know that the mentioned Marko Lujic, the person you

23 mention in this conversation, has a son in the HVO

24 whose name is Mario?

25 A. No, I don't know.

Page 8433

1 Q. So you didn't know that, thank you. Very

2 well. Let's go on to the next topic.

3 You spoke about the truck bomb, the fuel

4 truck that exploded in Stari Vitez. You mentioned that

5 you saw two fuel trucks before, parked not far from the

6 house of Mario Skopljak. Could you please, Witness,

7 tell me whether you recall that a company had already

8 been formed under the name of Vitez Trade, owned by

9 Marijan Skopljak, Markesa, and some other people?

10 A. I said that I saw those fuel trucks near the

11 house of Mario Cerkez, and not Mario Skopljak.

12 Q. Very well then, let me ask you in greater

13 detail. The distance between Cerkez and Mario

14 Skopljak, what is it?

15 A. It's not very far.

16 Q. So those fuel trucks were on a piece of

17 socially owned land which was suitable for parking?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. But you haven't answered my question.

20 A. About Vitkom [sic], I know that it is

21 operating now, but as for those days, I wasn't aware of

22 that, nor did it interest me.

23 Q. You mean Vitez Trade?

24 A. Yes, Vitez Trade.

25 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Could I ask the

Page 8434

1 usher to assist us and to give us excerpts Z2210,9,

2 these birth certificates.

3 JUDGE MAY: You're referring to the death

4 certificates?

5 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, sir.

6 Could the witness look at those documents,

7 please, to leaf through them.

8 A. Do I need to identify them?

9 Q. No, I just have one question about them.

10 Look, please, at all four documents. In the top, you

11 will see a different time indicated as the time of

12 death, registration of the time of death, the line just

13 below the heading. This line here [indicates].

14 Will you look at the first line below the

15 letters in bold print?

16 A. Yes, I see. It says, "18th of April, 1993"?

17 Q. No, not that, above that, when it says the

18 certificates, the death certificates and the number,

19 93, 95, 94, 95. These data are not related to the date

20 of death?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. But allow me to put my question to you. You

23 were a member, you were an officer of MUP, you were

24 aware of the procedure. How can we see that these

25 deaths were registered subsequently? There must be a

Page 8435

1 legal basis for such a registration, subsequent

2 registration. You worked on these things in the MUP.

3 A. Yes, there must be a reason.

4 Q. The only legal grounds, unless there is a

5 death certificate, is a procedure declaring a person

6 who is missing as being dead.

7 A. Yes, but those bodies were not operating at

8 the time.

9 Q. That was the procedure then, and even today,

10 and it was the responsibility of the court, was it not?

11 A. I don't see what's the point of discussing

12 that now.

13 Q. We have both been asked to slow down.

14 A. It is true that it is clearly regulated, but

15 there wasn't a joint registrar operating at the time,

16 and these are abstracts from the book of death

17 certificates issued subsequently, probably at the

18 request of relatives, and you have to register the year

19 when the death was recorded.

20 Q. At the bottom of the document we have the

21 date of issue of the document; that is fine. But in

22 all four of these documents, it is noted that the

23 registration was done on the basis of a decision by the

24 police. For some a date is indicated; for others there

25 is no date. Can you explain why the police --

Page 8436

1 A. I cannot.

2 JUDGE MAY: Before you do, is there,

3 Mr. Kovacic, any dispute that these people were killed

4 in the explosion caused by the truck bomb?

5 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] We are sure

6 that people were killed on that occasion, but we don't

7 know whether there is any reliable data to indicate

8 who. But these documents seem to indicate that it was

9 these particular people who were killed, so I'm

10 actually challenging the formal regularity of these

11 documents. That is all.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, well, we've got that point.

13 Now shall we move on to another one?

14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. You told us about the exchange procedure and

16 your activities in the Exchange Commission. You first

17 said, in that connection, something that I am

18 interested in, that Cerkez misled you because he said

19 that he had no prisoners, and upon your arrival at the

20 cinema hall you found that there were 13 prisoners

21 there, or detainees?

22 A. Yes, that is what I said, and that is correct

23 and true. That can be verified at the UNPROFOR camp,

24 where there is a video.

25 Q. Mr. Rehibic, you know that those persons --

Page 8437

1 because you discussed that matter that morning -- that

2 those 13 people were brought there maybe a half hour or

3 an hour previously from Kaonik to the cinema hall.

4 A. Talking to those people, they told us that

5 they had spent the night there.

6 Q. Some of them testified here, and their

7 testimony differed from that.

8 A. I remember very well the conversations we had

9 in the cinema hall.

10 Q. Those persons were brought from Kaonik by the

11 military police?

12 A. That is something I don't know.

13 Q. You didn't hear about it?

14 A. No.

15 Q. But from your general knowledge, did you know

16 that Kaonik was under the control of the military

17 police?

18 A. All I know about Kaonik was that it was a

19 prison. Who controlled it, I don't know.

20 Q. You said that in the course of that

21 conversation, Cerkez told you that he considered those

22 people to be safer in detention than at liberty. Do

23 you believe that he was implying that he was holding

24 them there?

25 A. I clearly heard Cerkez say that he believed

Page 8438

1 that they were safer there than they would be in their

2 own apartments.

3 Q. Would you agree with me that this

4 corresponded to the truth?

5 A. I cannot confirm or deny that. I don't

6 know.

7 Q. Very well. As regards the families that you

8 mentioned and the dispute over whether they could leave

9 town, the family members were not detained at the time,

10 were they? It was just a question of whether they

11 would be allowed to leave the town and pass through

12 checkpoints?

13 A. Yes, to be able to leave with their

14 husbands.

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, it's now 11.00.

16 Would that be a convenient moment to adjourn?

17 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, sir.

18 JUDGE MAY: Half an hour.

19 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

20 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. And to conclude about the visit to the cinema

25 theatre in respect of the release of prisoners. At

Page 8439

1 that time, those present included the representatives

2 of the HVO civilian government, Messrs. Ivica Santic

3 and Mario Skopljak; is that correct?

4 A. No, not about the release.

5 Q. Did they talk with people in that regard?

6 A. I cannot say anything about it.

7 Q. Very well. And just the last question in

8 that regard. Who, eventually, approved the -- who

9 approved that the families of these people could leave

10 Vitez, that is, people who opted to do so?

11 A. Mr. Cerkez.

12 Q. That was after the conversation which you

13 had?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Very well. Regarding the exchange commission

16 of which you were a member, which you mentioned, Z903

17 was offered here. That was the joint command of

18 Messrs. Kelestura and Cerkez on the establishment of

19 this commission. Kelestura and Cerkez issued this

20 order and it -- as ordered to do so by a superior

21 command?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So it is not in dispute that Kelestura and

24 Cerkez signed this order pursuant to an order which

25 directed them to do so signed by Petkovic and

Page 8440

1 Halilovic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So they were tasked as local commanders to

4 implement the agreements reached at a higher level; is

5 that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were one of the persons who received

8 certain specific tasks as a member of the commission?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So your membership of the municipal staff of

11 the Territorial Defence was not of importance here; you

12 were just delegated to get the job done?

13 A. No. With your permission, Your Honours, I

14 can clarify this.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 A. The joint commission was established by the

17 HVO and ABiH representatives, and Refik Hajdarevic was

18 delegated by the ABiH army. He was from the 325th

19 brigade, and myself as member of the TO headquarters.

20 And Mr. Borislav Jozic and Stipo Krizanac were

21 delegated on the part of the HVO.

22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Very well. Yesterday you mentioned at least

24 on two occasions some shelling on the first day of the

25 conflict. At one point you stated that you could, by

Page 8441

1 the sound of these grenades, you said that you were

2 able to ascertain the 150 millimetre calibre, also

3 nicknamed as Nora, was used on Preocica, and you said

4 that you were in Stari Vitez and that you could see

5 this?

6 A. Visually speaking, I could not see the

7 position from which the fire was -- that the weapon was

8 fired, but I know that it was from the Mosunj area.

9 But you could see the impact, that is the explosion in

10 the area of Preocica.

11 Q. So you conclude this on the basis of your own

12 perception?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could you have seen Mosunj from Stari Vitez?

15 A. I said that visually I could not see it, but

16 I could hear it. So acoustically, yes.

17 Q. Very well. In the same way you concluded or

18 you inferred that artillery fire was used from Mosunj

19 in the direction of Zenica?

20 A. Again, the weapon was fired in the area of

21 Mosunj, and the impact was heard in the direction of

22 Zenica.

23 Q. Very well. I'll change the topic. But let

24 me just ask, since you had the military education.

25 What is the range of such a gun? What was it?

Page 8442

1 A. My knowledge of this matter was from the

2 70's. I wasn't actively involved in the military

3 affairs, but based on the sound and the explosion, this

4 must have been a larger -- a higher calibre weapon.

5 Q. Very well. Let's now focus on some events in

6 Mahala itself. You said that your headquarters was

7 there and that you also kept a military unit there.

8 There was also some equipment and some weapons, were

9 there?

10 A. As far as the unit is concerned, at that time

11 it was not deployed there because the attack prevented

12 this, so the units of 325th brigade or the municipal

13 headquarters were never established there.

14 Q. Very well. According to the information we

15 have, and Mr. Sefkija also testified in another case on

16 this, as far as Stari Vitez is concerned there was one

17 82 millimetre mortar in Stari Vitez?

18 A. I did not see it. I am -- I know of two 60

19 millimetre mortars being present there.

20 Q. At least three snipers --

21 A. I am only aware of one, and I don't know if

22 you are referring to the 7.9 millimetre rifles.

23 Q. Was one of them a Steyer 7.9 millimetre?

24 A. Believe it or not, I never saw one.

25 Q. Our information is that there were at least

Page 8443

1 six M-52 machine guns, also 7.9 millimetre?

2 A. I don't know about that.

3 Q. Then there was one M-84 machine gun and in

4 stock there were at least ten rocket --

5 A. I don't know. I didn't go into any details

6 about this.

7 Q. And there were a lot of small arms?

8 A. As far as the small arms is concerned, it was

9 used by the military police, the civilian police, and

10 some local inhabitants who were members of the units

11 which we have mentioned and who happened to be in Vitez

12 at the time.

13 Q. Is it true that 30 military police soldiers

14 were armed?

15 A. I believe that is correct.

16 Q. Is it correct that -- again the same number,

17 but there were 30 members of the civilian police under

18 arms?

19 A. I guess these numbers can be established. I

20 wasn't there, and I told you about the establishment of

21 units.

22 Q. And some 210 other armed people, so that all

23 in all there were about 270 armed men in Stari Vitez?

24 A. I believe that that is -- that was not the

25 case.

Page 8444

1 Q. Very well. In the end, the fact is that

2 Mahala managed to survive until the final peace was

3 signed, and it never fell; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that is correct.

5 Q. Thank you. When we spoke about the attack of

6 the 17th July, you said that one of the killed was

7 named Zlatko Nakic, and you said that he was a member

8 of the military police, which was part of the Viteska

9 Brigade. Do you know that the 4th battalion of the

10 military police was deployed in Vitez?

11 A. What military police?

12 Q. The HVO military police.

13 A. I know Mr. Zlatko Nakic personally. He was

14 part of the escort of the mixed commission of which I

15 was a member, and the military police of the army and

16 the HVO were in charge of providing escort, so I don't

17 know whether that has anything to do with the 4th

18 Battalion.

19 Q. Let me ask you this question in another way:

20 Is it true that the military police had its

21 headquarters in the Hotel Vitez, that is, the HVO

22 military police, or the 4th Battalion of the HVO

23 military police? Just say if you know or not.

24 A. In that respect, I can only say that I had

25 heard of some regional military police whose command

Page 8445

1 was on the upper floors of the civilian police, in the

2 former premises of the Territorial Defence.

3 Q. Very well. You also mentioned that a soldier

4 was killed, and you identified him -- that is, killed

5 on the HVO side -- whose identification showed that he

6 was a member of ZNG, Zenga?

7 A. Yes, I saw that.

8 Q. It was the home guards? "ZNG" stands for

9 that?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. You're not aware of the fact that this

12 formation was disbanded as early as 1991?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So if I understand you correctly, you are not

15 saying that a unit from Croatia was involved in the

16 attack against Mahala?

17 A. I just said that on the basis of this

18 identity card, this is what I concluded.

19 Q. Very well. Later on, you mentioned some

20 other topics, and if I can quote you, at one point you

21 said that in the zone of responsibility, any zone of

22 responsibility, the commander of the largest unit is

23 responsible for the entire area of responsibility; did

24 I quote you correctly?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8446

1 Q. Would you agree with me that in Vitez, the

2 Central Bosnia Operative Zone command was superior to

3 him? That is, individually speaking, General Blaskic?

4 A. As far as I know the hierarchy, the commander

5 of an Operative Zone is superior to all units in that

6 zone. And at the local level, and that is how I framed

7 my statement, the commander of the largest unit in that

8 area is in command of that zone of responsibility and

9 is superior to all other units.

10 Q. Do you know, in the area of Vitez, in those

11 days when the conflict broke out, what was the zone of

12 responsibility of the Vitez Brigade?

13 A. I know that Vitez was in the area of

14 responsibility of the Viteska Brigade. I don't know

15 farther afield.

16 Q. But is it true that some other HVO units were

17 also active in Vitez and operating in Vitez, in that

18 area? And some of them you have mentioned.

19 A. Yes, that is correct, because evidence shows

20 so.

21 Q. Very well. On your side -- that is, the ABiH

22 side -- did the 325th Mountain Brigade have its own

23 zone of responsibility, or was it responsible for the

24 entire Vitez municipality area?

25 A. I was a member of the Territorial Defence

Page 8447

1 staff. The zone of responsibility of that staff was

2 Old Vitez. As far as deployment of the brigades

3 outside of this territory, I could not know much from

4 Stari Vitez, so I cannot really give you a specific

5 answer.

6 Q. Very well.

7 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yesterday we

8 had Exhibit Z1009-1 introduced. Can I please have it

9 shown to the witness?

10 With the Court's permission, we received this

11 supporting material, an almost identical document, and

12 it was dated 10 June, '93. We never received the

13 original; we only received a translation of it. May it

14 be distributed to all the parties, please.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let that be distributed, if

16 you have it.

17 Mr. Kovacic, are you coming to an end of your

18 cross-examination?

19 MR. KOVACIC: Yes. Indeed, Your Honour, I

20 think that that is the last question I have -- I mean,

21 a couple of questions connected to the document.

22 Q. Very well. Mr. Rebihic, you have a document

23 before you which we saw yesterday. The version you

24 have in front of you is in the language you

25 understand. We have a translation of this document,

Page 8448

1 and to your right, on the ELMO, is a copy of the

2 document which is a translation of the document. We

3 never received the original; we only have this

4 translation.

5 If you look at the document to your right,

6 which is in English, you will see that there is a name

7 starting each paragraph, and at the bottom it states

8 that it was signed by you as the deputy commander, and

9 there is an abbreviation which I believe refers to your

10 position as an intelligence officer.

11 Can you tell me, in addition to the documents

12 of 2 June, 1993, you also drafted a similar document,

13 an almost identical document, of 10 June, 1993?

14 A. There is no dispute that I signed these

15 documents at the request of the superior bodies of the

16 army, and the documents state clearly that it refers to

17 the relevant intelligence information I received at the

18 time.

19 Q. In both of these documents, about 20 persons

20 were named, and from the heading, it would follow that

21 these 20 persons were those whom you suspected were

22 responsible for committing crimes or directly connected

23 to the crimes and genocide against the Muslims in the

24 area of Vitez municipality; is that correct?

25 A. That is not how I understand this

Page 8449

1 information.

2 Q. Can we read -- why don't you read the title?

3 A. It says that there is grounds or reasons

4 for -- reasonable grounds to suspect, so it doesn't say

5 that they were responsible.

6 Q. Very well, Mr. Rebihic. Could you say, out

7 of the persons named in these two documents, some of

8 them are the persons whom you reasonably suspected of

9 having committed crimes, and Mario Cerkez is not among

10 them? Is that correct?

11 A. As far as I recall, it was stated in one of

12 these reports.

13 Q. Mr. Rebihic, if you can just answer the

14 question. This is a simple question. Perhaps the

15 Prosecutor can follow up with his own questions, but a

16 total of 14 names mentioned in these two reports, some

17 of them are repeated in both, but I just want you to

18 answer whether the name of Mario Cerkez is among these

19 individuals.

20 A. I don't know what to tell you.

21 JUDGE MAY: Well, the answer is no, it's

22 not. Now, can we next move on?

23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Can you tell me, did you at any time, and

25 even following the Dayton Agreements, you shared this

Page 8450

1 information with the Croatian side, that is with the

2 HVO?

3 A. I said that I left the army immediately

4 following the Washington agreements and dedicated

5 myself to the family, and I have no further knowledge

6 of what transpired subsequently.

7 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, that would

8 conclude my cross-examination.

9 And I thank you, Mr. Rebihic.

10 Your Honour, I would like that this document,

11 the second one dated June 10, would be entered as the

12 evidence in the material.

13 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Number will be D40/2.

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski. Yes.

16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your

17 Honours, the defence of Mr. Kordic has no questions of

18 this witness.

19 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Any re-examination?

20 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I have a

21 few questions, a few points of clarification for this

22 witness.

23 Re-examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:

24 Q. It was indicated during your testimony by the

25 defence that you had dealings with a certain person

Page 8451

1 called Budimir. Could you tell us who Mr. Budimir

2 was? I think his name is Ivan Budimir. In a few

3 words.

4 A. Mr. Ivan Budimir was a teacher. I know him

5 personally. I know that for a time he was commander of

6 the military police.

7 Q. Was Mario Cerkez his superior in the chain of

8 command?

9 A. Logically, he was.

10 Q. You spoke about the military police of the

11 Vitez Brigade?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. It was also specified, during the

14 cross-examination regarding the events of the 20th of

15 November 1992, you were asked whether you remember an

16 incident concerning the arrest of six members of the

17 Croatian military police and the injuries inflicted on

18 two Croatian civilians. Do you recall that question?

19 A. Today?

20 Q. Yes, today, by the representative of the

21 defence. He mentioned an incident when Croats were

22 wounded by members of the Bosnian army.

23 A. I said that I was not aware of that.

24 Q. That incident, according to what was said,

25 occurred on the 20th of November 1992, but we agree

Page 8452

1 that the death of two soldiers named Huso Kargic and

2 Sead Hurem occurred in the night, between the 19th and

3 20th of November 1992?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. An observation concerning a date referred to

6 by the defence. They referred to an incident

7 concerning people in Cajdras as if it occurred on the

8 20th of August 1992. I think that was a mistake,

9 because the diaries that we have attributed to the

10 month of October 1992, and not August.

11 As regards the 3rd of March 1993, we spoke

12 about it yesterday, and you noted in your diary that on

13 that day a Croatian flag was hoisted in front of the

14 SPS factory. And this morning reference was made to

15 the hoisting of a flag which you described as a

16 religious one near the mosque during the celebrations

17 of Bajram?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Will you agree with me in saying that the day

20 when the Croatian flag was hoisted in front of the

21 factory, not only was the flag hoisted, but all the

22 guards of the factory were disarmed?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Therefore, the problem was not merely a

25 problem regarding the flag?

Page 8453

1 A. No. Before that the security officers were

2 disarmed and removed from their working places.

3 Q. Regarding the work of the commission in which

4 you participated, the commission formed on the 11th of

5 May 1993, and the founding document being signed by the

6 accused, Mario Cerkez, and Mr. Mensud Kelestura. This

7 is Exhibit Z903. On this document in paragraph 3 the

8 following is indicated:

9 "Each party should provide a vehicle for the

10 military police, as well as a vehicle for the needs of

11 the commission."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And, if I understood you well, it was on that

14 basis that Zlatko Nakic was a member of the military

15 police -- that you learnt that he was a member of the

16 military police during work in that commission?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. This document was signed by the commander of

19 the Vitez Brigade and the commander of the 325th

20 Mountain Brigade?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. The two parties, therefore, are the Vitez

23 Brigade and the 325th Mountain Brigade?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Still in connection with this commission, you

Page 8454

1 drafted a report which was previously admitted as

2 Z2712, a report on the 24th of May 1993. In that

3 report you mentioned the 15th of May 1993, that the

4 commission dealt with various matters, and in the

5 afternoon the commission visited the cinema and was

6 able to talk to people who were arrested and detained

7 in the cinema?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. So that was the 15th of May as the date of

10 that visit. The defence noted a moment ago, in the

11 course of the cross, that the witness who testified

12 here had said that they were released the same day from

13 Kaonik.

14 A. In my conversation with the people, in the

15 presence of others, and there were representatives of

16 the HVO in attendance, the prisoners clearly said that

17 they had spent the night there.

18 Q. Let me specify for the attention of the Trial

19 Chamber the two witnesses who have already testified,

20 Witness J, and another witness, Mr. Edib Zlotrg,

21 indicated when they testified in this Chamber that it

22 was on the 14th of May that they were released from

23 Kaonik and not on the 15th of May. Therefore, there

24 must be a mistake made by the defence a moment ago.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, can we speed up?

Page 8455

1 We've got another witness.

2 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Yes. I am

3 also done.

4 Q. You indicated, in connection with the speech

5 made by Mr. Cerkez during this parade at the Vitez

6 stadium, you said this morning that the ceremony was

7 organised to struggle against a common enemy, which

8 were the Serbs at the time. Yesterday, in the speech

9 that you referred to, there was reference to the arming

10 of Croats against the Muslims, and not against the

11 Serbs.

12 A. I clearly said yesterday, and today as well

13 in the course of my testimony, that every effort was

14 made to avoid a conflict in Vitez. In this speech that

15 I referred to yesterday --

16 Q. Mr. Rebihic, simply, did Mario Cerkez in the

17 speech he made indicate that the Croats were threatened

18 and that they have to protect themselves from the

19 Muslims?

20 A. Yes, that is correct.

21 Q. Regarding the 19th of October 1992, when you

22 saw the concentration of forces in the centre of Vitez,

23 you never said that these were exclusively forces that

24 were stationed in Vitez?

25 A. No.

Page 8456

1 Q. There may have been among them forces coming

2 from outside Vitez?

3 A. Yes, indeed.

4 Q. Regarding the presence of soldiers that you

5 described as Tigrovi, Tigers, who escorted General

6 Praljak. In the period we are referring to, General

7 Praljak was the head of the HVO, wasn't he?

8 A. I don't know what his position was.

9 Q. He was a Croatian general from the Republic

10 of Croatia, wasn't he?

11 A. I know that from talks I had that he was a

12 Croatian general, but what position he held, I don't

13 know. And that he came with the aim of establishing a

14 joint command.

15 Q. You didn't know that General Praljak had a

16 position of authority within the HVO?

17 A. No, I didn't know that.

18 Q. Finally, regarding the reports that were

19 shown to you this morning with lists of names, the

20 reports that you signed as an assistant commander of

21 the intelligence service. What was the exact purpose

22 of those reports?

23 A. After the burial of the bodies, from superior

24 army authorities the headquarters was required to

25 provide a report on information in its possession

Page 8457

1 regarding events that had occurred within the territory

2 of the municipality. The aim was to inform higher

3 level competent bodies of the information at the

4 disposal of the municipal TO staff at that time.

5 Q. Those reports were not intended to list all

6 the names suspected -- of people suspected of

7 committing crimes in Vitez?

8 A. No. The information that we had at that

9 time, until then.

10 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I have

11 finished with my questions to the witness. I have a

12 request on behalf of the office of the Prosecution

13 regarding the diaries that we discussed at length this

14 morning.

15 The Office of the Prosecutor believes, after

16 close study of those diaries, that it would be

17 necessary for the Chamber to directly familiarise

18 themselves with those diaries, and that they should be

19 admitted into evidence.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, do you still

22 maintain your objection to the introduction of this

23 diary?

24 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I

25 understood that it is solved, and --

Page 8458

1 JUDGE MAY: It's out, but they're asking it

2 to be in. Let's deal with the witness first before we

3 go on with this.

4 Mr. Rebihic, I'm sorry to have kept you.

5 Your evidence is now over. Thank you for coming to the

6 International Tribunal. You are now free to go.

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I

10 thought that you had made your ruling yesterday.

11 JUDGE MAY: We have been asked to reconsider

12 it. We wanted to know whether you maintained your

13 objection or not. Yes or no will do.

14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] We maintain our

15 objection. We were just trying to contribute

16 practically and to be helpful.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE MAY: It remains out.

19 Yes.

20 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, the next witness is

21 Mr. Allan Laustsen. We've received an offer of proof

22 last night, and I don't want to take up too much time,

23 but it seems to the Kordic defence, from looking over

24 this, that this testimony is completely duplicative of

25 the testimony already given by Major Baggesen, who

Page 8459

1 unfortunately was detained before the Trial Chamber for

2 quite a few days.

3 The second problem is that it also deals with

4 the issue of the Zenica shelling on April the 19th, and

5 the Trial Chamber has already heard about that from

6 Major Baggesen.

7 The third point that we would make concerns

8 very specifically paragraph 9. Apparently Mr. Laustsen

9 is a Danish police inspector who was also an ECMM

10 monitor, and with all due respect to the witness, it

11 seems to us that the opinions that he wants to give in

12 paragraph 9 surely fall beyond the competence of a

13 police officer, and so we would object to that.

14 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

15 JUDGE MAY: Who is going to deal with this

16 for the Prosecution?

17 MR. NICE: Well, in fact, it's Mr. Scott

18 who's dealing with this witness, and I'm just arranging

19 for him to come in.

20 I think the general reply is that this

21 witness is in any event going to be dealt with quite

22 swiftly; I think Mr. Scott's forecast is of about 45

23 minutes in chief. In any event, the proper time to

24 deal with these objections is really item by item, when

25 we see what, if any, validity there is in the

Page 8460

1 objections. The summary doesn't necessarily set out

2 the full experience and relevance of what the witness

3 is able to say.

4 It looks, from Ms. Verhaag's solitary return,

5 as though neither the witness nor Mr. Scott is in the

6 right place at the right time, for which I apologise,

7 but I would respectfully invite the Chamber simply to

8 deal with this on an item-by-item basis if and when we

9 reach the problem areas, because I know, in relation to

10 matters of expertise, that this witness probably holds

11 rather than is shown in the bare outline, but I'll ask

12 Mr. Scott.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, it may well be that matters

14 about Zenica have been disputed, and therefore he is

15 certainly entitled to deal with that.

16 MR. NICE: Yes.

17 JUDGE MAY: But how much of the other is

18 going to assist us and isn't simply repetitive of what

19 Mr. Baggesen said is something which we ought to look

20 at rather carefully.

21 MR. NICE: I think Mr. Scott will have that

22 in mind in any event, he having called Mr. Baggesen

23 himself, and he knows which matters would be

24 duplicative. I think that's the reason he thinks that

25 the evidence will be so short in any event.

Page 8461

1 While he's -- sorry, perhaps I shouldn't cut

2 across your line of thinking, because he's got to

3 arrive, and he hasn't yet arrived. It's clear we're

4 going to finish the witness one way or another today;

5 there is no tightness of timetable now. There are a

6 couple of administrative matters that I would like to

7 touch on, and may I just use a couple of minutes now to

8 deal with one of them?


10 MR. NICE: It's the recurring issue of the

11 mapped front lines that the Chamber has sought.

12 Providing it has been, obviously, a fairly extensive

13 exercise, because it means drawing on material from

14 different places, and then, having got the material

15 together, the question of how it's going to be

16 presented that's in a way most useful to the Chamber

17 and probably in a way that's most portable to the

18 Chamber, because where you can have big visual aids in

19 a courtroom like this, if you can't take them away with

20 you to work on, they're probably less valuable than

21 more.

22 Having looked at various versions that are

23 already in the form of preparation, I have

24 provisionally come to the view that you might actually

25 be assisted more than anything else by something very

Page 8462

1 simple, namely by the map that I know some members of

2 the Chamber have been referring to, the coloured map --

3 I don't know what the exhibit number is -- suitably

4 overdrawn in different versions with the front lines at

5 different dates, so that you have two or three more

6 copies of this map, and at this scale. There's always

7 a problem of what scale of map to have. If you have it

8 too big, the thing ceases to be portable. If you have

9 it too small, you can't read a thing.

10 Now, if this map, folded as it has to be, is

11 broadly a useful tool to the Chamber, and if the

12 Chamber are happy with that, I'll try and have it

13 printed, or rather overprinted, with the front lines at

14 different dates, and then there will be a similar map

15 specific to Vitez. If that doesn't seem a very helpful

16 suggestion, and if the -- it's not for me to ask

17 questions, I know, but if the Chamber has any

18 alternative proposals for how it would like the

19 material presented, then I'll see if I can meet the

20 request. But sometimes all modern sophistication can't

21 beat something fairly traditional; namely, a map.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE MAY: Well, it sounds a sensible

24 suggestion.

25 MR. NICE: I'll have that commissioned. I

Page 8463

1 was told yesterday that the prospects are that the

2 printing can be done by the end of next week, but I'll

3 get it to you as soon as possible.

4 What I would propose -- I hope this won't

5 cause any disquiet -- I propose to put the map in as a

6 tool at this stage. We'll have to get a witness to

7 come along and derive its markings in due course; that

8 may be an additional witness, or it may be one of the

9 existing identified witnesses providing this material,

10 but it may be a useful working document, subject to

11 proof.

12 I wasn't padding out time, but I notice that

13 Mr. Scott arrives just as I finish dealing with that

14 small matter.

15 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours?

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 MR. KOVACIC: There is no dispute on

18 anything; I just want to be useful, let's say. In the

19 Blaskic case, there was a three-dimensional model used,

20 and I'm not talking about the value as evidence on that

21 material, but it is obviously something which everybody

22 could easily see the situation and everything. Perhaps

23 we can think about the use of that material and have it

24 in the courtroom so it's easy to show what is where,

25 and perhaps some marks on the front could be added.

Page 8464

1 MR. NICE: I think I've already dealt with

2 that model. A, it only shows part of the area; and B,

3 for a reason that was wholly unexplained, it's

4 completely out of scale, so that it doesn't give

5 anything like an accurate picture of the terrain,

6 making it look more like a ski resort than the place

7 that it is. It's also heavily overmarked with alleged

8 identification of forces of one kind or another, which

9 by no means is necessarily agreed, and it would not, in

10 our respectful submission, be of any value in this

11 case, dealing with a much wider area and where

12 precision is required.

13 Can I just explain privately the position to

14 Mr. Scott so that he can know what's afoot?

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the

17 declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

20 truth


22 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a

23 seat.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Scott, I

25 think that Mr. Nice has explained to you the

Page 8465

1 situation. We think that it was you, in fact, who

2 examined in chief Witness Baggesen, and we believe that

3 much of the summary that you have presented is

4 repetitious of what has already been said, with the

5 exception of the two or three last pages. So we would

6 like to ask you to focus on the substance and not to

7 repeat what we already know, and which has already been

8 stated here, and that is one of the principles of

9 procedure that we wish to pursue more and more, and

10 that is not to admit repetitious testimony by this

11 Tribunal, in the interest of efficiency and justice.

12 So will you please bear that in mind so that

13 we can finish with the witness, including the

14 cross-examination, before the end of the day.

15 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you. I

16 think by the technique of leading, by skipping certain

17 material and leading on other material, I predict, Your

18 Honour, that this can be -- the entire direct

19 examination can be quite brief.

20 Examined by Mr. Scott:

21 Q. Mr. Laustsen, is it correct that you are a

22 career officer in the Danish police?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Your present rank is chief inspector?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8466

1 Q. You became an ECMM monitor assigned to RC

2 Zenica as of approximately 1 April 1993, and left the

3 region on approximately the 1st of July 1993?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The head of RC Zenica during your duty was

6 Jean-Pierre Thebault?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Is it correct, sir, that when you began your

9 duties with ECMM you were briefed, and one of the items

10 covered in your briefing was the ECMM assessment that

11 the senior political leader in Central Bosnia was Dario

12 Kordic who, perhaps among other things, was identified

13 as the vice-president of the HDZ?

14 A. That's correct, yes.

15 Q. Is it correct, sir, that during the month of

16 April 1993, you were teamed with fellow monitor Lars

17 Baggesen in team Z1, and after that you worked again

18 with both Mr. Baggesen and another monitor named

19 Bent -- I think it's pronounced Faerge?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Your areas of responsibility included Zenica,

22 Kakanj, Breza, Visoko, Kiseljak, Fojnica, and Busovaca?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is it correct, sir, that you were the

25 operations officer, in fact, at RC Zenica for

Page 8467

1 approximately the month of June 1993?

2 A. That's also correct.

3 Q. Is it correct, sir, that it was the general

4 perception or position of ECMM, RC Zenica, during the

5 time period from April through June, that is your tour

6 of duty, 1993, that the HVO was attempting to take full

7 control of the proposed Vance-Owen provinces 8 and 10,

8 even though there were Muslim majorities in wide areas?

9 A. Yes, that's correct.

10 Q. Did you ever hear --

11 JUDGE MAY: I think, if you are doing

12 paragraph 9, it's subject to dispute.

13 MR. SCOTT: I was going to try to approach it

14 slightly differently, if I could.

15 Q. In connection with your testimony just now

16 about Vance-Owen provinces 8 and 10, did you ever hear

17 what was presented as the Bosnian-Croat plan presented

18 using any particular terminology about a particular

19 territory or a particular state?

20 MR. SAYERS: Once again, Your Honour, I do

21 object to that. This involves a pure political opinion

22 from this witness, and I don't mean any disrespect to

23 the witness, but I really do question how helpful

24 that's going to be to the Trial Chamber.

25 Obviously, that's for the Trial Chamber

Page 8468

1 itself to decide, but a pure political opinion from

2 essentially a lay witness is --

3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, let me respond to

4 that, please. If I can respond briefly, please. This

5 is not a personal opinion from just this witness. This

6 was the informed assessment of the ECMM which was these

7 were professional people, sent there as trained

8 observers by the European community for the exact

9 purpose of analysing and coming to certain -- making

10 observations and coming to certain conclusions.

11 This was -- I believe the witness -- he

12 didn't think of this on his own. This was the ECMM

13 assessment at the time.

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] But,

15 Mr. Scott, I think that you may have other witnesses,

16 people responsible in the ECMM to ask them for their

17 conclusions. You do not necessarily need to ask this

18 witness.

19 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, that can be said

20 about a number of things. The answer would have been

21 answered -- quite frankly, the question would have been

22 answered by now. A number of people, you are right,

23 could address this, but I see no reason why this

24 witness shouldn't be able to give his answer.

25 JUDGE MAY: No, we don't think it's going to

Page 8469

1 assist. If you'd move on, please.


3 Q. Is it correct, sir, that around Easter of

4 1993 you learned that there had been trouble in the

5 Travnik area, when the HVO raised a Croatian flag there

6 which resulted in a confrontation in which two ABiH

7 soldiers were shot and killed by the HVO?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was it also reported around that time that

10 the HVO was taking up military positions on the high

11 ground around Travnik?

12 A. That's correct, yes.

13 Q. To your knowledge, sir, is it correct that

14 HVO checkpoints on both sides of Travnik, we are now

15 talking about around the Easter period of 1993, began

16 stopping all vehicles on the road, and it was reported

17 that many Muslim civilians were arrested at these

18 checkpoints?

19 A. That's correct, yes.

20 Q. You recall, sir, and is it correct that on

21 the 12th of April 1993, a convoy of approximately four

22 trucks containing wheat flour were hijacked in the

23 Vitez area by the HVO at an HVO checkpoint?

24 A. That's correct, yes.

25 Q. Did you learn, and not only you, but RC

Page 8470

1 Zenica, learn around the 16th of April 1993 that indeed

2 there was heavy fighting in the Vitez area?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Based on your own investigation, sir, is it

5 correct that you determined that the HVO headquarters

6 in Vitez was not in fact attacked on the 16th of

7 April?

8 A. When I visited the place, there were no signs

9 of attack.

10 Q. All right. In the interest of speed, I may

11 have skipped a point. Did you learn and was RC Zenica

12 informed during this time period, when questions arose

13 about this fighting, that it had been caused by an ABiH

14 attack, an attack on the 16th of April on the HVO

15 headquarters in Vitez?

16 A. It was mentioned that the reason why the HVO

17 was taken, the BiH -- was because of a BiH attack on

18 the HVO headquarters in Vitez.

19 Q. Fine. Did you have occasion, in fact, sir,

20 to be at the HVO headquarters in Vitez several days

21 after the 16th of April?

22 A. Yes. I was there around the 20th.

23 Q. Did you see any evidence of an attack on the

24 Vitez headquarters?

25 A. No.

Page 8471

1 Q. Is it correct, sir -- was it the ECMM

2 assessment that this story of an attack on the HVO

3 headquarters was essentially only used as an excuse or

4 cover for the HVO attacks on the Muslim villages in the

5 Lasva Valley?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Directing your attention to the 17th of April

8 1993. Is it correct, sir, that on your way from Zenica

9 to Vitez, not only yourself but with two other ECMM

10 monitors, you passed the village of Ahmici?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. At the junction of the main road and the road

13 into Ahmici you saw three bodies, possibly a family, in

14 civilian clothes laid side by side in front of a house?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. Did it appear to you, sir, that this was a

17 father, mother, and approximately ten year old boy?

18 A. Yes, it did.

19 Q. If I can direct the usher, please, to show

20 you Exhibit 1598.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could we ask counsel to

22 slow down, please.

23 MR. SCOTT: Yes, I apologise.

24 Q. Do you have that, sir?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8472

1 Q. Is it correct that this was a photograph

2 taken by your colleague, Erik Friis-Pederson?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. And that's what you saw and you just

5 described to us in your testimony just now?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it correct, sir, that as you travelled in

8 the Vitez area during the 16th and 17th of April 1993

9 and thereabouts, did it appear to you that the HVO had

10 essentially sealed off the entire Vitez area?

11 A. Yes, there were a lot of checkpoints around

12 in that area, HVO checkpoints.

13 Q. Is it correct, sir, that around this time you

14 learned from BritBat that the HVO was trying to

15 ethnically cleanse some Muslim houses near the BritBat

16 camp?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. You actually saw this occur, sir?

19 A. I saw the BritBat sitting there, in position

20 to protect the civilians around the BritBat camp, yes.

21 Q. Were you able to determine that because of

22 the intervention by the British forces, this moving of

23 the Muslims out of their houses was prevented?

24 A. Yes, it was.

25 Q. Is it correct, sir, that what you and other

Page 8473

1 ECMM members saw in connection with the HVO attacks on

2 Muslim villages followed a certain system or pattern?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. There appeared to be a regular pattern of,

5 first, there would be an attack by mortars or rockets,

6 then the village and area would be sealed off by the

7 HVO soldiers, and then HVO squads, often wearing black

8 balaclavas, would then attack the individual Muslim

9 houses and murder Muslim civilians?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. When I say that was the pattern, is that the

12 report that you heard over and over again from one

13 village to the next?

14 A. Yes, that was the reports I heard, and some

15 of the teams observed these soldiers at checkpoints,

16 soldiers with ski masks.

17 Q. Directing your attention to the 19th of April

18 1993. Were you in Zenica on that day?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And around 9.30 in the morning did you hear

21 artillery shells being fired into the centre of Zenica

22 town?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is it correct that you then went to that

25 location where the shells had landed, together with

Page 8474

1 your colleague, Lars Baggesen?

2 A. Yes, that's correct.

3 Q. You were able to determine that six shells

4 had been fired into the Zenica marketplace killing 13

5 Muslim civilians and wounding many others?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. All right. I want to direct your attention,

8 with the usher's assistance, please, to three

9 photographs marked collectively as Exhibit 2281.

10 Looking at the first of that package of

11 three, is that a photograph of a shell crater, or an

12 impact in Zenica that you -- and you took this

13 photograph?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. The second photograph is of a destroyed car.

16 Is that a vehicle -- excuse me. Is that a photograph

17 you took in connection with the Zenica shelling?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Going to the third paragraph -- excuse me --

20 photograph. Is that a picture that was taken by

21 Mr. Baggesen in connection with the Zenica shelling?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. Is that you standing toward the right side of

24 the photograph?

25 A. That's me, yes.

Page 8475

1 Q. And there is another shell impact, is it

2 correct, approximately a little less than 9.00 from

3 your position in front of you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. If the usher -- I am going to move through

6 these very quickly. It's probably not even necessary

7 that they all be put on the ELMO. But if the witness

8 could be shown Exhibits 2277,1, point 2, point 3 and

9 point 4, and also 2282,1.

10 We are over halfway through the outline, Your

11 Honours.

12 Looking at those photographs, are those

13 additional photographs in connection with the Zenica

14 shelling that you saw, that Mr. Baggesen took that day

15 or others, and do they accurately show what you saw, at

16 least in part, on that day?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. There are several photographs, just for the

19 record, of a destroyed car. There is another crater of

20 a kiosk and a car. There is photographs showing some

21 of the bodies of the casualties; is that correct?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. There is an impact near a cafe with chairs

24 outside; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8476

1 Q. Now, sir, let me ask you: As of the 19th of

2 April 1993, the day this shelling took place, had you

3 been serving up to that point continuously since 1983

4 with the Danish artillery forces?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. During that time were you the operations

7 officer?

8 A. I was operations officer, yes.

9 Q. During that time were you the commander of an

10 artillery battery?

11 A. Yes, that's correct.

12 Q. Had you in that regard received various

13 training in the use of artillery?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Firing of artillery?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Had you received training in various

18 artillery munitions?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Had you been trained concerning the effects

21 or characteristics of artillery in terms of its impact

22 in the field?

23 A. Yes, I have.

24 Q. Just so the record is clear, this was --

25 essentially, you are, if you will, a part-time citizen

Page 8477

1 soldier?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What in some countries might be called the

4 National Guard?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You continued, in fact, to be in that

7 capacity now?

8 A. I am still doing it now, yes.

9 Q. Are you now still the commander of an

10 artillery battery?

11 A. Yes, I am.

12 Q. When you looked at the scene in Zenica on

13 19th of April 1993, is it correct, sir, that you

14 concluded that these shells had been fired from a 122

15 millimetre artillery piece, having an approximate

16 range -- yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

18 MR. SAYERS: I believe that this matter is

19 contested and that the examination should take place in

20 the conventional way, if it's acceptable to the Court.

21 JUDGE MAY: Very well.


23 Q. All right. Mr. Laustsen, can you inform the

24 Court of your conclusions about the type of artillery

25 that was used to fire these shells into Zenica on the

Page 8478

1 19th of April?

2 A. Yes. We collected some of the shrapnel that

3 we could find in that area and took it to -- I can't

4 remember if it was the Canadian Battalion or the

5 British Battalion, and looked at the shrapnels and

6 decided that it was from a 122 millimetre gun.

7 Q. Generally speaking, can you tell the Court

8 what the approximate range of a 122 millimetre gun is?

9 A. Approximately around 14 kilometres.

10 Q. Was this just your own personal assessment or

11 did the BritBat or CanBat officers, whichever it was,

12 did they reach the same conclusion?

13 A. It was a conclusion we reached together.

14 Q. Now, can you tell the Court what steps you

15 then took to assess, if you will, to determine the

16 direction from which the shelling had come?

17 A. Yes. When the shell hits the ground, it hits

18 in a special way. Because of the speed of the shell,

19 the fragment will be thrown out in different

20 directions. And can we look at one of the photos

21 again?

22 Q. Yes. Which one would you like? The first of

23 your packet?

24 A. Yes. I think it was this one. 2281.

25 Q. Yes. If you can show us that, please.

Page 8479

1 A. Yes. It's easy to see here. Impact place is

2 [Indicating].

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. And you can see the shrapnel has hit the

5 earth around here [Indicating]. When the shrapnel is

6 situate around there, like this.

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. It indicates that the shell is from this

9 direction.

10 Q. From the direction of the pointer?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In that direction?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. All right. And the impact effects, if you

15 will, the shrapnel effects that you see on the crater,

16 or on the impact spot, are those sometimes referred to

17 as splash marks?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And from that, among other things, that is

20 how, not only you, but other military people assess the

21 direction from which a shell was fired; is that

22 correct?

23 A. That's correct, yes.

24 Q. That's a commonly accepted method of doing

25 so; is that correct?

Page 8480

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you also take a compass reading?

3 A. Yes. On the opposite, three or four metres

4 away from the crater, and just used a compass in the

5 normal way.

6 Q. What reading did you -- do you recall which

7 reading --

8 A. It was around 270.

9 Q. Would that put it in roughly a westerly

10 direction from --

11 A. It was straight west, yes.

12 Q. Were you and Mr. Baggesen and the BritBat or

13 CanBat officers then able to come to some conclusion as

14 to an approximate location where the shells had been

15 fired?

16 A. It was around the Travnik area.

17 Q. All right. Did you know at that time who --

18 what forces on the ground controlled that particular

19 territory?

20 A. That was the HVO.

21 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Mr. Usher, you just sat

22 down, but if I could have your assistance again,

23 please. If the witness could be shown -- perhaps he

24 has them up there -- if the witness could be shown

25 Exhibit 2282,6.

Page 8481

1 Q. Looking at Exhibit 2282,6, in which a bearing

2 has been drawn on this topographic grid of the Zenica

3 area, is that a fair representation, sir, of the

4 approximate location which you and Mr. Baggesen and the

5 BritBat or CanBat officers determined that the firing

6 had come from?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you able to determine, in the course of

9 your ECMM duties on the 19th of April, whether there

10 were, in fact, any military targets near the

11 marketplace in Zenica which could reasonably have been

12 the aiming point for these artillery shells?

13 A. As far as I knew or know, there were -- there

14 wasn't any military objects around the marketplace.

15 Q. All right. Could you look, please, at -- if

16 the usher could show you Exhibit 2282,4 and 5.

17 MR. SCOTT: If you could hand him 2282,5 at

18 the same time.

19 Q. Looking at the map of -- this is a map of

20 Zenica, for the record -- and looking at the location

21 marked in blue as an "M" with a circle, do you agree,

22 sir, that that's the approximate location of the

23 marketplace in Zenica where the shells impacted?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Directing your attention also to the

Page 8482

1 accompanying exhibit, 2282,5, do you see, please, that

2 that is a legend or key to the map, to the circled

3 location on the map?

4 MR. SCOTT: And for the record, Your Honours,

5 and to be clear, there are other numbers on this map

6 for different reasons, but the numbers to which the key

7 responds are those in bold circled print, the closest

8 one to the "M" being at approximately 8.00 position,

9 number 5.

10 Q. Sir, as an artillery officer, as the

11 commander of an artillery battery, were there any

12 military targets within a reasonable margin of error

13 from the impact points in the Zenica marketplace?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Is it your assessment that this artillery

16 fire, then, was intentionally directed at a civilian

17 target?

18 JUDGE MAY: Now, just a moment. I think

19 that's a very leading question.

20 MR. SCOTT: All right. I'll rephrase it.

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Rephrase it in a neutral

22 way, please.


24 Q. Well, perhaps the best way, again, is to just

25 simply ask you: Based on your familiarity with Zenica

Page 8483

1 during your time in Bosnia, and assisted by the map

2 which is Exhibit 2282,4, were there any military

3 targets within a reasonable range, if you will, or

4 close by the location where the shells impacted on the

5 19th of April?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Moving ahead, is it correct, sir, that during

8 your time in Central Bosnia, the HVO controlled the PTT

9 or telephone lines in the area and communicated

10 effectively between the various HVO components and

11 locations, including Kiseljak?

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. Is it correct, sir, that in working with

14 Mr. Baggesen and others, that it appeared to you

15 that -- it appeared to be the case that the PTT lines

16 were mostly functional or could easily have been

17 repaired?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Was it ECMM's conclusion in most of these

20 instances that in fact all the HVO really needed to do

21 was switch on the lines?

22 A. That was our conclusion.

23 Q. Directing your attention further, you were in

24 Kiseljak on a number of occasions during your tour of

25 duty; is that correct?

Page 8484

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. You did not meet the HVO commander there,

3 Ivica Rajic?

4 A. No.

5 Q. However, you did speak with Mario Bradara,

6 the deputy HVO commander; Vinko Lukic, who was one of

7 the HVO brigade commanders; and Vinko Frankovic, who

8 was the HVO information officer; is that correct?

9 A. That's correct, yes.

10 Q. Now, moving to the 27th of April, 1993, is it

11 correct, sir, that you and other monitors attempted on

12 the 27th of April to enter several Muslim villages near

13 Kiseljak, including Gomionica, but the HVO stopped you

14 from entering the villages?

15 A. That's correct, yes.

16 Q. Were you told by the HVO officer on site that

17 the HVO commander in that region, Ivica Rajic, had

18 ordered, in fact, that all U.N., UNPROFOR, UNHCR, and

19 ECMM vehicles be stopped and prevented from entering

20 those villages?

21 A. That's correct, yes.

22 MR. SCOTT: If I could ask the usher to show

23 you Exhibit 836,1.

24 Q. This is a daily summary for the 27th of

25 April, 1993, for RC Zenica. Directing your attention

Page 8485

1 to the second page, sir, are you one of the persons

2 who -- I guess I can't say signed, but whose name is

3 listed under the document -- under the text?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Mr. Laustsen; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Directing your attention specifically to

8 paragraph 2, immediately above your name, if you could

9 just look at that for a moment, is that an accurate

10 account of your efforts to enter the village Gomionica

11 on the 27th of April, 1993?

12 A. That's correct, yes.

13 Q. All right. And in fact you record there this

14 order by commander Ivica Rajic to stop all U.N.-related

15 vehicles; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Moving forward to the 29th of April, did you

18 and Mr. Baggesen and others, with the assistance of an

19 armed escort by CanBat, the Canadian Battalion, you

20 actually then succeeded in visiting the villages of

21 Polje Visnjica, Hercezi, Doci, Visnjica, and Gomionica,

22 again, all of which were located in the Kiseljak area?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Was the reason that you had gone to these

25 villages, first on the 27th and again on the 29th, was

Page 8486

1 because of reports that those Muslim villages had been

2 ethnically cleansed by the HVO?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Is it correct, sir, that you found in Polje

5 Visnjica that the only, in fact, few houses which had

6 not been burned or destroyed were the houses where

7 Bosnian Croats lived?

8 A. That's correct, yes.

9 Q. But that all the Muslim houses had been

10 destroyed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it correct, sir, that the Muslim families

13 in Hercezi had good relations with their Bosnian Croat

14 neighbours, and that was probably why the Muslim houses

15 in that village had not been burned?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. But, in fact, nonetheless, approximately 14

18 Muslim civilians had been killed in that area?

19 A. That's correct, yes.

20 Q. You found that the village of Doci was

21 completely abandoned?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In Visnjica, approximately 40 out of 115

24 Muslim houses had been destroyed by the HVO, and five

25 Muslim men had been killed?

Page 8487

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. And about -- when you arrived there on the

3 29th, your team was able to determine that

4 approximately 20 Muslim families had returned to the

5 village at that time?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it correct, sir, that none of the Muslim

8 civilians in the above villages that we've just talked

9 about were allowed to pass out of the HVO checkpoint at

10 Polje Visnjica?

11 A. That's correct, yes.

12 Q. And finally, was it your conclusion or --

13 excuse me, observation that the Muslim village of

14 Gomionica was destroyed and completely abandoned?

15 A. Yes, it was.

16 Q. If I can ask you to look briefly at

17 Exhibit 847, is that a copy of a report that you and

18 Mr. Baggesen prepared concerning the inspection of

19 these villages on the 29th of April?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. You agree today, still, with the conclusions

22 stated in paragraph 4?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Moving forward, if the usher could show you,

25 if he has it with him already, we can just finish up

Page 8488

1 with 902,1, 915, 921, and 1041.

2 I want to direct your attention, sir, please,

3 to the 11th of May, 1993. Is it correct that around

4 that date you had a meeting in Fojnica --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- with the local BiH commander, Beba Nasuf,

7 and the local HVO commander, Stjepan Tuka?

8 A. That's correct, yes.

9 Q. And did you find that the general situation

10 in Fojnica was calm and without tension, as the Muslims

11 and Croats were living together peacefully?

12 A. Yes, I did.

13 Q. Did both Mr. Nasuf and Mr. Tuka report that

14 they had good relations with each other, they had daily

15 meetings and joint patrols, and the only issue that

16 they were dealing with at that particular time was that

17 Mr. Tuka, commander Tuka, was having problems with his

18 HVO superiors because of his good dealings with the

19 Muslims?

20 A. That's correct, yes.

21 Q. Could you look, please, at Exhibit 902,1. Is

22 that your report from the 11th of May, 1993?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And basically it recounts what we've just --

25 your testimony just now; is that correct?

Page 8489

1 A. That's correct, yes.

2 Q. Now, on the 12th or 13th of May, is it

3 correct that you also talked with the mayor of Fojnica?

4 A. I did, yes.

5 Q. Nasir Salimovic?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. He told you that by that day, which we're now

8 a day or two later, Mr. Tuka had been dismissed as the

9 HVO commander in the area because he had too good

10 relations with the Muslims and would not follow an

11 order to attack?

12 A. That's correct, yes.

13 MR. SAYERS: Objection, Your Honour. This

14 matter is contested. It's double hearsay, and I

15 believe Mr. Tuka is on the Prosecutor's witness list,

16 so he can talk about this for himself. In fact, he was

17 actually listed as being one of the witnesses for this

18 week.

19 JUDGE MAY: Well, this witness can say what

20 he heard. Of course, if Mr. Tuka gives evidence, that

21 will be the most direct evidence of what happened.

22 MR. SAYERS: The only problem that I have

23 with what he heard, Your Honour, is that he is actually

24 reporting what someone else had heard from someone

25 else.

Page 8490

1 JUDGE MAY: It may be that you have a

2 problem, but we're admitting it.


4 Q. If you can look, please, we can move very

5 quickly, look at Exhibit 915. Is that your report from

6 the 13th of May?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Directing your attention to Item 7, does it

9 reference your conversation with the mayor? Do you see

10 that?

11 A. Yes, that's ...

12 Q. And even at that time, as stated here, the

13 Croats and Muslims in Fojnica were not having yet any

14 problems; is that correct?

15 A. That's correct, yes.

16 Q. Now, looking at Exhibit 921 --

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Scott, it's past 1.00. Are

18 you going to be many more minutes?

19 MR. SCOTT: Literally probably two or three

20 minutes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MAY: Very well.


23 Q. If you look at Exhibit 921, is that your

24 report from the 14th of May, 1993?

25 A. Yes. Yes, it is.

Page 8491

1 Q. Just for identification purposes, on the

2 lower right portion of the page, the writing "22nd

3 August" and then followed by a signature, is that

4 yours?

5 A. That's mine, yes.

6 Q. Directing your attention to approximately the

7 middle of the page, the end of Item Number 2, were you

8 informed that day that, quote, "The HVO commander has

9 been removed from his job because too good

10 relationships with the BiH. However, the commander is

11 still on his job"?

12 A. Yes, that's correct.

13 Q. Were you surprised to learn, only a short

14 time after the 14th of May and after Mr. Tuka had been

15 removed, that, in fact, fighting did break out between

16 the HVO and ABiH in the Fojnica area?

17 A. Yes, I was surprised at all that, yes.

18 Q. Last exhibit, last question, if you look at

19 Exhibit 1041, the second page, which is an RC Zenica

20 report for the 10th of June, 1993, directing your

21 attention to the bottom part of the page -- the last

22 paragraph on page 2, sorry.

23 In connection with your testimony, sir, did

24 you learn -- did ECMM learn, at least by the 10th of

25 June, that, in fact, the BiH commander in Fojnica

Page 8492

1 informed the team that the HVO some days ago ordered

2 the Croats who live in the Muslim part of the town to

3 move into the Croat part of the town; the Croats are

4 now moving back?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. That was after Mr. Tuka had been removed; is

7 that correct?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 MR. SCOTT: No questions, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE MAY: Well, we'll adjourn now.

11 Mr. Laustsen, would you please remember not

12 to speak to anybody during the adjournment about your

13 evidence, and that includes members of the Prosecution

14 team. Would you be back, please, at 2.35.

15 A. Yes.

16 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.










Page 8493

1 --- On resuming at 2.31 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers.

3 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Laustsen. My name is

6 Steven Sayers and I am representing one of the

7 attorneys representing Dario Kordic.

8 You were in Bosnia-Herzegovina from April the

9 1st to June the 30th, 1993, correct?

10 A. Correct.

11 Q. And you took a holiday, I believe of 11 days,

12 from May the 20th to June the 1st out of the country?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Which meant that you spent a grand total of

15 about ten weeks in the country, correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. What did you do, before you arrived in Bosnia

18 on April the 1st, to read up or study up on the

19 political, military or historical situation in the

20 country?

21 A. Actually, in Denmark I was following the

22 situation in the newspapers, in television. And I

23 started -- when I volunteered -- what's it called -- a

24 course, where I learned about the situation in Bosnia.

25 Q. How long did that course last?

Page 8494

1 A. I think it was two days.

2 Q. Two days?

3 A. Two days, yes.

4 Q. You've lived in Denmark, I take it, all of

5 your life?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And you've been in -- a policeman for the

8 last 15 years?

9 A. Since '84. Yes, 15 years.

10 Q. All right. As I understand it, you received

11 a standard ECMM briefing?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You were informed that the military commander

14 of the HVO in Central Bosnia operative zone was who?

15 A. It was Blaskic.

16 Q. And the Muslim military forces commander was

17 whom?

18 A. Hadzihasanovic.

19 Q. General Hadzihasanovic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Who was the ECMM telling you, if they did,

22 was the political leader of the Muslims in Central

23 Bosnia, sir?

24 A. I can't remember. I was told, but I can't

25 remember the name.

Page 8495

1 Q. As a general matter, Mr. Laustsen, as

2 unfortunate and tragic as the fact may be, burned out

3 houses were a common sight in Bosnia in both Croat and

4 Muslim villages when you were there; isn't that true?

5 A. That's true, yes.

6 Q. And, indeed, the same is true of the Croat

7 sections in Muslim villages, predominantly Muslim

8 villages, and of the Muslim sections in predominantly

9 Croat villages, correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. In fact, once again, as unfortunate and

12 tragic it may be, but nonetheless a fact of the area,

13 one of the routine techniques used by both sides in

14 this war was to burn down the houses of enemy civilians

15 once a village had been taken, if you like. Isn't that

16 true?

17 A. That's true, yes.

18 Q. One of your colleagues, Major Baggesen,

19 described this as sort of a cycle of retribution and

20 revenge. Would that be in accordance with the way that

21 you saw things?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Indeed, your colleague, Major Baggesen,

24 maintained a war diary, which is already in evidence in

25 this case, and he observed that he had travelled around

Page 8496

1 on April the 20th, and I believe it may have been with

2 you, visiting some Croatian villages that had been

3 burned down, and making the observation that many

4 houses had been abandoned, criminal gangs ran riot and

5 pillaged houses. That's on page 8 of his diary. Did

6 you see that too?

7 A. His diary? Yes. Sometime I did.

8 Q. The facts that are recorded in his diary, you

9 were witness to those facts as well, weren't you?

10 A. Some of them. Some of them, yes.

11 Q. Right. And when these terrible things

12 happened in the ECMM, of which you as one of the

13 monitors got involved, it was equally routine for both

14 sides, basically, to point the finger at the other?

15 Wouldn't that be a fair statement?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You mentioned, and I am going to try to go

18 through this extremely briefly, because I want to get

19 you out of here by the end of the day, if possible,

20 sir. You referred to a truck convoy, I think it

21 consisted of four trucks that had been hijacked in the

22 town of Vitez or Vitez on April the 12th. Do you

23 recall that?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. That convoy or those trucks were actually

Page 8497

1 carrying foodstuffs, weren't they?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. On April the 8th or thereabouts there was an

4 incident that caused some tension when a HZHB flag was

5 raised outside of the headquarters of the 7th Muslim

6 brigade in Travnik. Do you recall that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Isn't it true that on the same day there was

9 a huge military parade in Travnik with about 1.000

10 soldiers from the 17th Krajina brigade, the 7th Muslim

11 Brigade, and various other so-called ABiH detachments?

12 A. Sorry, I can't remember that.

13 Q. All right. That's fair enough. Let me just

14 read you, for the purposes of saving time, an extract

15 from Exhibit Z693, which is an ECMM monitor mission

16 Danish delegation communication to Zagreb. In the

17 Travnik area, and I am reading from page 10 now, it

18 says:

19 "A parade took place at the old JNA barracks

20 to commemorate the first anniversary of the BiH Army.

21 About 1.000 soldiers paraded with elements from the

22 306th, 312th, 17th Krajina and 7th Muslim brigades."

23 Does that jog your memory about that

24 particular incident, or have you still -- I mean, I

25 appreciate that.

Page 8498

1 A. I can't remember it.

2 Q. That's fair enough. Do you recall an

3 incident a few days after that where four HVO staff

4 officers were kidnapped just outside the town of Novi

5 Travnik?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. You were returning from the front line with

8 the Serbs, correct?

9 A. Correct, yes.

10 Q. That was to the north and west, I think?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So the HVO actually had units fighting the

13 Serbs up in that area to the northwest of Novi Travnik,

14 and to the west of Travnik, correct?

15 A. Croats at the front line, yes

16 Q. And these four unfortunate fellows were

17 kidnapped by the 7th Muslim Brigade, were they not?

18 A. At what -- August.

19 Q. Right. And it ultimately turned out to be

20 true; isn't that correct?

21 A. Their release was from some Mujahedins.

22 Q. Right. In terms of the release that you've

23 just talked about, were you actually present when the

24 prisoners were released in Zenica?

25 A. Yes, I was watching from my window in the

Page 8499

1 hotel. Yes.

2 Q. That was a pretty lively occasion, I think,

3 would be an understated way to put it; wouldn't you

4 agree?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In fact, I believe -- and this is Exhibit

7 D79/1 I'll just read from -- it's an ECMM document a

8 special report, dated May the 19th, 1993. Let me just

9 ask you to tell me whether this is consistent with the

10 event that you've describe.

11 "At Zenica, in front of the Hotel

12 International, the Mujahedin showed up with a force of

13 at least 100 masked and heavily armed soldiers,

14 probably members of the 7th Muslim Brigade."

15 Please, forgive me for pausing, but I'm a

16 notorious victim of the interpreters, and I need to

17 make sure that they can keep up.

18 The comment goes on to say: "They deployed a

19 three-barrel 20-milimetre machine gun mounted on a

20 five-ton truck, anti-tank and anti-aircraft

21 shoulder-launched missiles. The situation here was

22 explosive. All local and military police forces

23 disappeared from the scene when the Mujahedin arrived.

24 When the released Arabians arrived and got out of the

25 UNPROFOR armed carriers, they were cheered by a crowd

Page 8500

1 of some 100 people, and after that they were escorted

2 from the spot by the masked soldiers who fired their

3 weapons into the air when leaving."

4 Is that pretty much what you saw?

5 A. Yes, that's what I saw, yes.

6 Q. Immediately before the fighting broke out,

7 Mr. Laustsen, on the 16th of April or before then, you

8 were one of the people that actually went to the scene

9 of the Totic kidnapping; isn't that correct?

10 A. That's correct, yes.

11 Q. Did you see the four unfortunate bodyguards

12 who had been executed in the car?

13 A. I saw four dead bodies in the car, yes.

14 Q. There was also a civilian who was --

15 A. A civilian, yes.

16 Q. All right. Now, were you aware that forces

17 stationed in Kruscica and Stari Vitez had threatened

18 retaliatory action against the HVO on the night of

19 April the 15th unless two abducted or detained ABiH

20 soldiers were released?

21 A. Not as far as I remember, no.

22 Q. I wonder if I might just show you two

23 documents and see if that jogs your memory. The first

24 is the 1st battalion of the Cheshire Regiment,

25 milinfosum number 167, dated April the 15th, 1993. I

Page 8501

1 might ask the usher to show you this.

2 The second document is a product from the G2

3 milinfosum of the headquarters command in Kiseljak of


5 THE REGISTRAR: The first document is

6 marked D93/1.


8 Q. Unfortunately we don't actually have copies

9 of the second document with us, but if I might ask the

10 usher to place my copy on the ELMO, I can just point

11 out the part that I would like to bring to your

12 attention.

13 I won't burden the record with reading out

14 what the document says; we'll have this marked as an

15 exhibit in due course. But you can see there that

16 actually BiH sources revealed to BritBat that they had,

17 in fact, launched an attack on Vitez at about 5.30 a.m.

18 on the 16th of April; do you see that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And, in fact, the British battalion recorded

21 the fact that threats had been made regarding the

22 abduction of the two ABiH soldiers, and those threats

23 came from the commander of the 325th Brigade in Vitez;

24 do you see that?

25 A. [No audible response]

Page 8502

1 Q. Good. And if you would just take a look at

2 the document that we have just marked, the British

3 milinfosum, on page 1 and 2, if you just show that to

4 the witness, Mr. Usher.

5 It's about halfway down the second full

6 paragraph. I'd just like to read into the record that

7 "Sefkija Dzidic stated that if the HVO did not release

8 the two BiH soldiers and return the weapons soon, he

9 would not be able to account for the actions of his

10 soldiers." And that was followed up by a statement

11 made by a gentleman who is identified here as Ramiz

12 Dugavic, but I think his name is Ramiz Dugalic, who was

13 the commander of the 325th Brigade, that the situation

14 would deteriorate rapidly if the release of the two BiH

15 soldiers did not occur immediately. Do you see that?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Were you aware of that?

18 A. Not as far as I remember, no.

19 Q. All right. And if you just take a look over

20 at the top of the next page on this, the British

21 intelligence cell concludes that if the two BiH

22 soldiers are not returned soon, some form of

23 retaliatory action by the BiH against the HVO is highly

24 likely. Do you see that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 8503

1 Q. All right. And just to conclude this line of

2 questioning, Mr. Laustsen, my understanding is that you

3 did not actually visit Vitez until the 20th; is that

4 what you said?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Which was four days after the fighting broke

7 out?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 Turning to the Zenica shelling incident, it's

11 true, and I think you will agree with this, that Zenica

12 was routinely shelled both before and after April the

13 19th; isn't that a fact?

14 A. It started around the 18th of April, the

15 shelling, and continued after that.

16 Q. In other words, the shelling of Zenica

17 started on the afternoon and evening of the 18th, the

18 day before the incident --

19 A. In that area yes.

20 Q. And thereafter, as unfortunate as it may be,

21 Zenica was shelled relatively frequently, wasn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And, in fact, I believe on page 14 of your

24 colleague's war diary Major Baggesen records that in

25 the afternoon Zenica and Vitez were subjected to a

Page 8504

1 fierce artillery attack. "On average we were attacked

2 every other day." Is that consistent with your

3 recollection?

4 Now, you say that Zenica was shelled at about

5 9.30 a.m.; is that correct?

6 A. It could be another time but, it was -- yes.

7 Q. In your statement at page 6, the only reason

8 I raise the subject is that you state that: "I can

9 recollect that on the 19th of April, 1993, around noon,

10 I heard artillery shells being fired into the centre of

11 Zenica." And you made that statement on August the

12 21st and 22nd, 1996?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. So was it 9.30 or was it noon?

15 A. It must be noon then.

16 Q. It must be noon?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Your colleague, Major Baggesen, actually

19 recorded in his contemporaneous journal that: "Without

20 warning an artillery attack was launched on Zenica with

21 shells falling in the town centre and near our hotel.

22 The attack began at 09.30 hours."

23 A. Okay.

24 Q. So it was at 9.30?

25 A. I'm not sure.

Page 8505

1 Q. Very well.

2 A. It was frequently, everyday. I can't say one

3 day from another.

4 Q. Was Remi Landry also an ECMM monitor --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- present during this indent?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Now, you say that six shells fell into the

9 centre of Zenica?

10 A. Around six shell, yes.

11 Q. Let me just read you a section from

12 Mr. Landry's statement, which was taken pretty much

13 contemporaneously with yours in August of 1996.

14 "On the 19th of April 1993, at about 12.10

15 hours I was in my room in the Hotel International in

16 Zenica. I heard two rockets land in the direction of

17 the centre of Zenica town. Into the centre of town.

18 Two additional rockets landed at 12.24 hours and a

19 further two fell at 12.29 hours. I made a record in my

20 diary of the times these rockets fell.

21 "Thereafter, I heard two other rockets fall

22 at 12.48 hours, which makes eight by my count, and

23 12.58 hours. Further away from the town at 13.16 hours

24 and 13.43 hours two fell to the south, which makes 10,

25 and north out of the town. At 13.56 hours and 14.04

Page 8506

1 hours two rockets were heard falling further away."

2 Which makes 12 artillery rounds. Now, were

3 they rockets or were they shells that were falling into

4 the town? Do you know?

5 A. Shells in the town, yes.

6 Q. Was it six or was it twelve?

7 A. Can I look in my diary for a moment? Thank

8 you.

9 Q. Actually, we have not been provided with that

10 diary.

11 A. It's because it's not -- I haven't used it

12 before, not under my interview --

13 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness look at the

14 diary, just to refresh his memory on that particular

15 point.

16 A. My diary I write: At 12.10 the city was hit

17 by artillery fire, first two rounds, then the sirens

18 were activated. And after that I counted four rounds

19 within 20 minutes into the centre of Zenica.

20 Q. How about the other rounds that --

21 A. I haven't made any notes about them.

22 Q. All right. So in your contemporaneous diary

23 the shelling occurred at about midday?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Very well. Now, you visited the scene of the

Page 8507

1 shelling along with Major Baggesen how many minutes or

2 hours after the incident had occurred?

3 A. I can't remember that. I have to -- I was

4 looking at the scene several times. A few days after

5 there were shellings during a high level meeting in

6 Zenica where the commanders were present. They were

7 making a ceasefire agreement. And during that meeting

8 the town was shelled again. Then I was investigating

9 together with soldiers from, I think it was ABiH and

10 HVO. So it's -- I have more times that the points --

11 Q. But the question was: How soon after the

12 shelling incident did you actually visit the scene of

13 the incident to do your investigation, sir?

14 A. I can't see that.

15 Q. Now, you, I take it, collected various pieces

16 of shrapnel from the shells, correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Did you actually find any fuses?

19 A. Not as far as I remember, no.

20 Q. What kind of fuse does a 152-millimetre shell

21 actually have, at the time that you were in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. It would mean that it's the fuse that is

24 actuated when it hit the ground. I don't know the name

25 in English.

Page 8508

1 Q. You don't recall the actual designation? All

2 right. Did you know, actually, that the fuses and the

3 majority of the fragments had actually been collected

4 up by an investigating judge from Zenica, who proceeded

5 to conduct his own investigation?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Let me put it to you, sir: Isn't it true

8 that for a 152 or 155-caliber shell, the fuse with a

9 designation 0F462Z is used. Is that a designation

10 that's familiar to you at all?

11 A. No.

12 Q. So if you actually saw an OF462Z shell, you

13 really wouldn't know what calibre of shell it came

14 from, would you?

15 A. I wouldn't know it, no. That's why I have

16 some expert from the CanBat or the BritBat to help.

17 Q. Did you ever speak to the investigating judge

18 who performed this investigation, Mr. Mladen Veseljak?

19 A. I didn't know there was an investigation.

20 Q. Did you know that it was his conclusion --

21 JUDGE MAY: He doesn't know that there was an

22 investigation. So that's as far as you can take it.


24 Q. Isn't it possible, sir, in your expert

25 opinion, that the shell could actually have been a

Page 8509

1 155-millimetre shell?

2 A. 155?

3 Q. Millimetre. You can't exclude that

4 possibility, can you, based upon the little fragments

5 of what was remaining of the shell --

6 A. But it wasn't my conclusion alone. It was

7 somebody at CanBat that was used to looking at

8 fragments and to see what kind of ammunition it was. I

9 can't say "yes" or "no."

10 Q. Do you know what the range of a

11 152-millimetre M84 artillery piece is?

12 A. 152?

13 Q. Yes.

14 A. I guess it's around 15 or 17 kilometres.

15 Q. Let me put it to you that the 152-millimetre

16 howitzer, model M84, has a range of 24,4 kilometres,

17 extended. Isn't that correct?

18 A. Howitzer? 152?

19 Q. 24,4 kilometres. Is that consistent with

20 your recollection?

21 A. No.

22 Q. No?

23 A. No. I know that in Denmark we, at that time,

24 had some 155 millimetres. They were shooting around 15

25 kilometres.

Page 8510

1 Q. On the subject of a 155 millimetre piece of

2 ordnance, sir, an M46/84 model actually has an extended

3 range of 39,6 kilometres?

4 A. Yes, a new model, yes, with a new

5 ammunition.

6 Q. Did you see any 155-millimetre howitzers

7 anywhere when you were in Central Bosnia?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Where are the fragments that you collected up

10 on the 19th of April 1993?

11 A. They were delivered at the CanBat or the

12 BritBat. I still can't remember which of the places it

13 was.

14 Q. Did you make a record of the number or shape

15 of these particular fragments?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Did you make any record of them being

18 delivered to whoever it was that you delivered them to?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Would you agree that it is at least possible,

21 in your opinion, within a regional margin of error,

22 that the direction of fire actually could have come

23 from the extreme southwest, and not 270 degrees due

24 west, as you testified?

25 A. In the place I investigated, I would say from

Page 8511

1 265 to 275, in that area.

2 Q. A 10 degree margin of error, plus or minus?

3 A. Five.

4 Q. All right. How many minutes was it between

5 rounds, as far as you remember, between the six rounds

6 that you heard?

7 A. I have written 20 minutes.

8 Q. All right. With the Trial Chamber's

9 permission, let me just read you from the testimony

10 that Mr. Veseljak gave in the Blaskic case on the 22nd

11 of January, 1998. Page 5949.

12 JUDGE MAY: Who is he?

13 MR. SAYERS: He is the investigating judge,

14 Your Honour, who came up with conclusions regarding the

15 source of the fire and the direction and the interval

16 between rounds.

17 JUDGE MAY: If you could put the conclusions

18 to the witness.

19 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour.

20 Q. Let me put it to you, sir, maybe you'll agree

21 with him, maybe you'll disagree. His conclusion was

22 that the direction of fire came from the extreme

23 southwest. You could not exclude that possibility,

24 could you?

25 A. Extreme --

Page 8512

1 Q. Extreme southwest?

2 A. What would you mean with extreme?

3 Q. Well, I would say 180 degrees to --

4 A. No.

5 Q. You would exclude that. All right. And

6 Mr. Veseljak concludes that there was less than a

7 minute between shells. Is that consistent with your

8 recollection?

9 A. They were the two first shells.

10 Q. Did you actually participate with the local

11 police forces or investigate in any way regarding the

12 source of the shells that fell onto Zenica on the 19th

13 of April?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you prepare any written reports, sir?

16 A. I'm sure that there was a written report,

17 yes. I'm not sure which of the -- as I told you

18 before, I looked at several shells several days, two

19 days later, I think, during that -- this meeting. I

20 was doing some investigation again.

21 Q. Well, are you telling the Court that there

22 was a written report prepared by you and your

23 colleagues, or do you recall one not being prepared at

24 all?

25 A. I prepared one, but if it was the first or

Page 8513

1 the second, I can't remember that.

2 Q. Do you know what happened to it?

3 A. I delivered it.

4 Q. To whom?

5 A. To the RC Zenica.

6 Q. All right. Now, let me just cover some

7 potential variables with you. Would you agree with me

8 that the longer the range that you are shooting over,

9 the lesser of the accuracy you can predict?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And, indeed, the accuracy of the particular

12 artillery piece depends to some extent upon a tube

13 life; in other words, the number of rounds that have

14 actually been shot through the barrel, correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The more rounds that are shot through a

17 barrel, the less predictable the fall of shot becomes?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And a howitzer is different from other

20 ordnance, in that it generally flies at a higher

21 trajectory than regular cannons or large calibre

22 weapons, correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you know what the apogee of the ballistic

25 trajectory of 122 or 152 or 155 millimetre shells is?

Page 8514

1 A. The apogee?

2 Q. Apogee of the ballistic trajectory, the high

3 point on the trajectory.

4 A. That depends on the range.

5 Q. All right. At maximum range you've

6 testified, in your view, maximum range of a

7 122-millimetre weapon is 14 to 15 kilometres, correct?

8 A. That area, yes.

9 Q. What is the high point on the ballistic

10 trajectory at maximum range, sir? Do you know?

11 A. No.

12 Q. One of the variables, meteorologically

13 anyway, that governs the accuracy of fall of shot is

14 actually the wind conditions at the various elevations

15 that you can predict a shell passing through?

16 A. That's true.

17 Q. Do you know anything about the meteorological

18 conditions on the 19th of April?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know whether the HVO had any forward

21 observers to observe the fall of shot and correct?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you know what the angle of impact of the

24 shell actually was?

25 A. No, I can't remember that.

Page 8515

1 Q. Did you perform any calculations regarding

2 the angle of impact?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Given the fact that howitzers generally fire

5 at larger trajectories, isn't it true that the shorter

6 the range, the higher the trajectory, and therefore the

7 more -- the greater the angle of impact --

8 A. The shorter -- the higher?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. No.

11 Q. You wouldn't agree with that?

12 A. No.

13 Q. How do you aim a weapon at a shorter range?

14 Do you use a lesser charge?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. Do you know what kind of a charge

17 was used on any of the shots that were fired on the

18 19th?

19 A. I wouldn't know.

20 Q. Okay. Now, would you say that your ECMM

21 monitors or your fellow monitors, you were the most

22 knowledgeable about things regarding -- involving

23 artillery?

24 A. I don't think so. Maybe. As always, there

25 are more clever persons.

Page 8516

1 Q. Absolutely. But do you know of anybody who

2 was an artillery commander who was an ECMM monitor at

3 the time that you were?

4 A. I think later on there came a German, but I'm

5 not sure.

6 Q. Did you make a recommendation for the

7 installation of artillery locating radar in the Zenica

8 area, to eliminate any doubts as to where shots may

9 have come from and who was firing at whom?

10 A. We were talking about it, yes, and we were

11 told that the two that were in Sarajevo, they were

12 destroyed.

13 Q. In fact, you have been shown, and it's been

14 introduced as Exhibit Z836,1, a daily summary from the

15 regional centre in Zenica, which says: "The joint

16 operation command had a meeting today with the mayor of

17 Vitez. They discussed the hum problems in the area."

18 "Hum" was actually a high feature which was an

19 artillery location; isn't that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the summary goes on to say that: "The

22 ECMM monitors strongly feel that this situation could

23 be resolved once and for all if locating battery could

24 be made available to clarify this situation once and

25 for all."

Page 8517

1 And in the actual daily operational report

2 for the same day, the observation was made that: "The

3 problem to verify firing units and targets must be

4 solved so that there is no question of who is firing on

5 who. The only way to do that is by artillery locating

6 radar."

7 A. Uh-huh.

8 Q. In your professional opinion, would you say

9 that that's accurate?

10 A. Yes, because it can tell you where the

11 shelling are coming from. The investigation on the

12 spot can only tell you in what direction the firing was

13 coming from, not the exact place of the gun, howitzer.

14 Q. Now, do you remember, or perhaps you don't

15 remember this, that there was another incident

16 involving shelling on May the 8th of 1993, and feel

17 free to consult your diary, where Zenica and Vitez were

18 shelled, and an investigation was done by the ECMM that

19 resulted in the production of a written report? Do you

20 recall that?

21 A. [No audible response].

22 Q. If I could ask the usher to show you the

23 exhibit that was marked as D90/1.

24 We have put on the ELMO, Mr. Laustsen, a

25 report that was actually prepared regarding a shelling

Page 8518

1 incident that was used -- that involved the use of

2 152-millimetre ordnance. Were you involved in this

3 investigation at all?

4 A. I don't think so, no.

5 Q. You can see that the Muslims had accused the

6 Croats of being responsible, precisely reciprocal

7 accusations were made, and the monitor or monitors that

8 prepared this report stated that it was a relief to

9 tell both sides that Serbs had fired at both these

10 towns?

11 A. Uh-huh.

12 Q. Mr. Laustsen, it would be fair to conclude,

13 would it not, that there's absolutely no question that

14 both Vitez and Zenica were well within range of Serb

15 artillery at this time?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And before?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 Just a few questions regarding the Kiseljak

21 fighting that you touched upon. The village of

22 Hercezi, where no houses were burned, was located well

23 to the west of the main supply route that connected or

24 ran from Busovaca through Kacuni and Bilalovac to

25 Kiseljak; isn't that true?

Page 8519

1 A. It's hard for me to remember the exact

2 places.

3 Q. That's fair enough. While we are locating a

4 map on that, let me just ask you to agree, and feel

5 free to disagree if it's inaccurate. All of the

6 villages where you saw the damage in the Kiseljak

7 valley, they all were located right next to or on the

8 high ground overlooking the main road?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I was going to ask you some questions in

11 connection with ceasefire agreements, but maybe I do

12 not need to. You will agree that you never met

13 Mr. Kordic, correct?

14 A. That's correct, yes.

15 Q. Never spoke to him, right?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Then I'll move on.

18 Let me turn for a brief instant to the Muslim

19 forces offensive that occurred in the second week of

20 June of 1993, sir. There is no question that a large

21 offensive was launched by ABiH forces on Travnik

22 between June the 8th and 12th, is there?

23 A. No.

24 Q. And that offensive involved lots of

25 casualties and thousands of refugees. I can't give you

Page 8520

1 a precise number, but I can tell you that the estimates

2 range from 5.000 to about 20.000 refugees. Is that

3 consistent with what you were hearing at the time?

4 A. Not as I remember. Not that many.

5 Q. All right. How many were -- how many

6 refugees resulted from that offensive, as best you can

7 remember?

8 A. I can't give you a figure, because I don't

9 remember.

10 Q. Fair enough. Pretty much simultaneously

11 between June the 9th and June the 13th, a similar

12 offensive was taking place in the Kakanj area; isn't

13 that correct?

14 A. I think it is correct, yes.

15 Q. And that actually did result in a huge efflux

16 of refugees, numbering around 15.000. Do you remember

17 that?

18 A. I remember a lot of refugees, yes.

19 Q. Now, the Fojnica fighting about which you

20 gave some testimony, that actually occurred just a few

21 days after you had left the region; isn't that correct?

22 A. I know they were fighting when I went back.

23 Q. Actually, the fighting broke out on July the

24 2nd, just about two days after General Morillon had

25 visited the city and applauded it as being an oasis of

Page 8521

1 peace and a safe haven; isn't that correct?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. All right. But fighting did break out around

4 July the 2nd?

5 A. The start of July -- June.

6 Q. July the 2nd, I believe, 1993.

7 A. I wasn't down there July the 2nd, so ...

8 Q. All right. Were you aware of what the result

9 of that fighting was?

10 A. No.

11 Q. All right. Now, when you left Central

12 Bosnia, would it be fair to say that there were just a

13 few isolated Croat enclaves, one from Busovaca to

14 Vitez, the Kiseljak enclave, the Kakanj enclave had

15 actually been eliminated, there was an enclave in Zepce

16 too. Do you remember that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And all of these enclaves were geographically

19 isolated from one another and surrounded by ABiH

20 forces, weren't they?

21 A. The Kiseljak area was -- I don't think they

22 were, but some of them were isolated, yes, and

23 surrounded.

24 Q. Let's take Kiseljak then. It was surrounded

25 on three sides by Muslims and on the other side by

Page 8522

1 Serbs, wasn't it, right?

2 A. I think that's right, yes.

3 Q. All right. Were you present in Kiseljak on

4 June the 22nd when a rocket attack killed several

5 children in the Croat part of the town and wounded

6 several other people?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Let me turn to Zepce for just a minute. You

9 visited the Zepce area, I believe, on May the 4th?

10 A. Yes. I have been in the Zepce area, yes.

11 Q. All right. You prepared a report, I'm happy

12 to show you a copy of it, but maybe it's not

13 necessary. Do you remember meeting a gentleman, the

14 head of the HVO government in Zepce, a gentleman by the

15 name of Perica Jukic?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You spoke with him? He was also a member of

18 the HDZ party or the HDZ BiH, right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you ever follow this gentleman's career

21 at all after you visited him on May the 4th of 1993?

22 A. I don't think so, no.

23 Q. So you don't have any knowledge of the

24 prominent political positions which he ultimately

25 assumed?

Page 8523

1 A. No.

2 Q. All right. You gave some testimony regarding

3 a gentleman by the name of Stjepan Tuka, and this was

4 the last area of testimony that I have for you. You

5 say that Mr. Tuka was removed. Did you actually speak

6 to him?

7 A. Not after it had been told, no.

8 Q. Did you speak to him before he was removed?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Did he tell you that he had actually

11 disobeyed two combat orders?

12 A. He told me that -- I don't know if it was

13 two, but he told me that he had to attack the BiH when

14 he was ordered to, yes.

15 Q. Who gave those orders to him?

16 A. Supposedly, his superior officer.

17 Q. Colonel Blaskic?

18 A. I don't know. I don't know the name.

19 Q. Wouldn't you agree with me that it's not

20 unusual for a military commander who disobeys combat

21 orders to be removed from office?

22 A. It's not unusual.

23 Q. In fact, it's absolutely normal, isn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, the orders that Mr. Tuka was given

Page 8524

1 didn't require him to attack civilians and eliminate

2 them, did they?

3 A. I don't know his orders.

4 Q. All right. Did you know that the gentleman

5 to whom you spoke, the Muslim military commander, was

6 also removed pretty much at the same time?

7 A. No.

8 Q. As Mr. Tuka?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And did you know that the Croats were

11 basically pushed out of Fojnica at the end of June and

12 July, 1993?

13 A. I know they were -- yes, sometime, but as I

14 remember, they were moving back before I left the area.

15 Q. So we have Mr. Tuka removed and the

16 commanders that he was cooperating with removed as

17 well, and replaced by new commanders who fell to

18 fighting within --

19 JUDGE MAY: I don't think the witness can

20 answer all of this. That's all a matter of comment.

21 Anything else for the witness?

22 MR. SAYERS: No, Your Honour, I don't. Thank

23 you.

24 JUDGE MAY: Any questions, Mr. Kovacic?

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

Page 8525

1 Q. Yes, Your Honours. I will be very brief in

2 my questions. Good afternoon, Mr. Laustsen, my name is

3 Goran Mikulicic and together with Mr. Kovacic

4 representing Mr. Cerkez in these proceedings.

5 Mr. Laustsen, you said that on 12 April 1993

6 a convoy consisting of four trucks which transported

7 foodstuffs was abducted. Can you give us the exact

8 location where this took place?

9 A. It's difficult for me because I wasn't

10 involved in this personally in that matter. I just

11 remember it happened. So I can't give you an exact

12 location, no.

13 Q. Could you say approximately in the territory

14 of what municipality did this took place?

15 A. As far as I remember, it was the -- it was in

16 the Vitez area.

17 Q. You said that the regional centre at Zenica

18 received information on 16 April that the ABiH army had

19 attacked the main HVO headquarters in Vitez.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you visit this location?

22 A. The HQ of the HVO army, only a few days

23 later. I think it was around the 20th of April I was

24 there.

25 Q. Do you remember in what building the

Page 8526

1 headquarters was set up?

2 A. No, I don't.

3 Q. Would you recognise the building if I showed

4 you a photograph of it?

5 A. I'm not sure. I was going through the place

6 in an APC and was in the APC until we stopped in front

7 of the building and I looked at the building. We had

8 to have a talk with, as far as I remember, with

9 Blaskic, because of some roadblocks. That's the reason

10 we were there, so I'm not sure I can --

11 Q. Mr. Laustsen, would your memory be refreshed

12 if I told you that this was the building of a local

13 hotel?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Very well. So we will not pursue this line

16 of questioning.

17 At one point you said during your

18 examination-in-chief that the HVO controlled the PTT

19 lines. We agreed that in the Lasva Valley there were

20 several enclaves under the HVO control and which were

21 surrounded by the ABiH forces. In this context, that

22 is the way the forces were deployed, would it be

23 correct for me to infer that I can interpret your

24 statement to have meant that the HVO had control over

25 those PTT lines which were lying in the area under its

Page 8527

1 control?

2 A. One of the PTT, I think it was in Kiseljak,

3 that it was only a matter of an order. Then it was

4 able to talk on the telephone in most of the area from

5 Kiseljak to Travnik, Zenica. It was only a matter of

6 switching it on.

7 Q. Is it also correct that the ABiH army -- the

8 ABiH did control other PTT lines in the territory under

9 its control?

10 A. That's possible. I can't answer you "yes" or

11 "no."

12 Q. Mr. Laustsen, during the examination-in-chief

13 you were shown the daily operational report for 24 July

14 1993, and in order to save time I am just going to

15 refer you to the excerpts that I am interested in. In

16 point 1(a) of this report, that is -- sorry, the 26th

17 of April, an area in the vicinity of the British

18 Battalion came under an artillery attack. Do you know

19 the location where the British Battalion had its base?

20 A. Yes. I was staying there a lot of time. It

21 was -- ECMM had a house just next to the British

22 Battalion. I don't know the address, if that's ...

23 Q. Of course. Then you certainly know what

24 military units controlled this area?

25 A. The area around the BritBat, yes.

Page 8528

1 Q. What units were those? Were those the HVO or

2 the ABiH units?

3 A. It was the HVO.

4 Q. Mr. Laustsen, my understanding is that you

5 did not spend much time in Vitez. Do you know the

6 organisation of the HVO military in the Vitez area?

7 A. Not as I can tell you how it was. I was

8 attending some meetings in the ECMM house in Vitez with

9 this joint command, it was called at the time, but I

10 can't remember the names of the people who were --

11 participated.

12 Q. If I were to put to you the name of Mario

13 Cerkez, would you remember it as someone with whom you

14 ever spoke?

15 A. I can't remember it, no

16 MR. MIKULICIC: This concludes my

17 cross-examination, Your Honours. Thank you,

18 Mr. Laustsen.

19 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:

20 Q. Very briefly, Your Honour. If the usher

21 could show the witness, please, 2282,6, 2282,4 and

22 2281, the photograph of the -- one of the impacts. If

23 you can just put that in front of him.

24 Mr. Laustsen, I am going to ask you first to

25 look at the large map, the topographical map, please,

Page 8529

1 which is 2282,6. Zenica, the Court may or may not know

2 at this point or appreciate, that Zenica is a fairly

3 large town. Is that fair to say?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. By Bosnian standards. And looking at Exhibit

6 2286. If I can use the term, the greater Zenica area

7 extends along the river, stems out to the east of the

8 city along the road to the -- excuse me, to the west

9 and the east, for that matter. So you see the area,

10 the larger Zenica area? Do you see that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, when Mr. Sayers asked you: Had Zenica

13 been shelled prior to the 19th of April 1993, do you

14 know what parts of Zenica had been shelled, what areas,

15 what locations the Zenica area had been shelled prior

16 to the 19th of April?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you have any information that any place

19 near the civilian marketplace had ever been shelled

20 prior to the 19th of April?

21 A. Not to my knowledge, no.

22 Q. There was testimony about 122 millimetre, 155

23 millimetre and 152 millimetre. Some of those numbers

24 are quite similar. Was it your conclusion, sir, that

25 these shells that struck Zenica on the 19th of April

Page 8530

1 were 122 millimetre?

2 A. My conclusion, together with them from the

3 BritBat or the CanBat, yes.

4 Q. And in your experience, is that quite

5 different than a 155-millimetre shell?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 Q. Now, concerning the names. You said at one

8 point you didn't know the name of a particular fuse or

9 a designation of some numbers that Mr. Sayers referred

10 you to. Is it correct to say, and I think you said

11 this. Your Honour, I think the witness said this, but

12 it didn't come through on the transcript. You didn't

13 recognise those designations in English, sir? Is that

14 what you said?

15 A. Yes, I didn't know their names in English.

16 Q. In reference to Exhibit 836,1, the report

17 from the 27th of April. Mr. Sayers referred you to a

18 section which says:

19 "The JOC at a meeting today with the mayor of

20 Vitez, they discussed the hum problems in the area."

21 Do you recall, sir, whether it was often the

22 case that ECMM abbreviated humanitarian as "hum"?

23 A. Yes, humanitarian officer.

24 Q. If someone referred to a humanitarian officer

25 or to a humanitarian issue, they might write "hum"?

Page 8531

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Finally, looking at the photograph that's

3 marked of the shell impact, 2281. Could you just once

4 again on the ELMO show -- put your pointer on where you

5 would -- where you would deduct the line of fire from

6 that impact?

7 A. That impact, it's right here [Indicating].

8 Coming this way.

9 Q. Okay.

10 A. I can see it here [Indicating].

11 Q. In terms of the so-called splash marks of the

12 shrapnel, you would not expect to see splash marks

13 behind from the direction from which the fire came,

14 correct?

15 A. Only a very, very few, if any.

16 Q. Because when the shell impacts, it basically

17 splashes forward?

18 A. Yes, because of the speed.

19 Q. And to the side?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Perhaps, just for the record purposes, if you

22 have a highlighter, a marker there, you could mark

23 Exhibit 2281 with the approximate line of fire.

24 I'm sorry, does it not -- excuse me, don't do

25 that.

Page 8532

1 Would you like him not to do that, Madam

2 Registrar?

3 We can get a clear version, if we need to.

4 JUDGE MAY: Have you got a --

5 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.

6 Q. On the second version that you've just been

7 handed, sir, could you just mark the line of fire, if

8 you will, on that drawing?

9 A. [Marks]

10 Q. Thank you, sir.

11 MR. SCOTT: I have no further questions, Your

12 Honour. I would like a moment, when the witness is

13 released, if we could have a moment of the Court's

14 time, once the witness is released, please.

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Laustsen, that concludes your

16 evidence. Thank you for coming to the International

17 Tribunal to give it. You are now released.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE MAY: That last exhibit had better be given an A

20 number.

21 THE REGISTRAR: The last exhibit will be

22 number 2281/1.

23 MR. SCOTT: May I, Your Honour?

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

25 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, the Court will

Page 8533

1 recall some days ago the Court requested or indicated

2 it would be helpful to have copies of the Vance-Owen

3 Plan and also some demographic material. I've prepared

4 that. I have provided it to the Defence, and I placed

5 it on the registry's desk. If that could be

6 distributed to the three judges, I would give a

7 momentary explanation for it.

8 Your Honours, Exhibit 571 and 571,1 are

9 similar but not identical documents concerning the

10 Vance-Owen Plan. Sometimes the format presentation is

11 different, some of the attachments were somewhat

12 different. So I've frankly simply provided the Court

13 with both copies. The document, the agreements

14 themselves are identical. It's just that some of the

15 attachments and maps might be more helpful to the Court

16 in one version than the other. I note, just by point

17 of reference, on 571,1 which the title page is

18 "Security Counsel Official Records". If the Court

19 will look to the back, the next last page of that

20 packet, for instance, you will see a map of the

21 Vance-Owen Plan. And this map having been signed, in

22 fact, by a number of the parties, including Mr. Boban,

23 Mr. Izetbegovic, Lord Owen and Cyrus Vance, this will

24 show a map of the proposed cantons. And, of course,

25 the one we talked about most frequently about in this

Page 8534

1 case is 9, 10 and 8 with Vitez and Busovaca being in

2 province 10.

3 Finally, Your Honour, Exhibit 571,2 is a

4 several page document of demographic information, as

5 the Court requested. The first page -- all this

6 information basically comes from the 1991 census, which

7 I don't think there is any dispute. The only

8 authoritative census, if you will, in

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina shortly before the war. It lists

10 the most pertinent municipalities to the case in

11 alphabetical order and gives a total population and the

12 ethnic breakdown. As one of the footnotes indicates,

13 if the Court takes the time at some point to add up the

14 three columns, Muslim, Croat and Serb, you will find

15 that on some occasion it doesn't exactly equal total,

16 because there was also some who considered themselves

17 other or called themselves Yugoslavs.

18 For ease of simplicity of presentation, you

19 can certainly be provided. It's a small fraction, and

20 in some cases don't give you quite 100 per cent.

21 On the bottom part of the page is the

22 percentages in terms of the proposed provinces 8, 10

23 and 9.

24 There is, in the second page, Your Honour, a

25 bar chart, which essentially presents the same

Page 8535

1 percentage information by municipality.

2 The third page, Your Honour, is a map of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina with the outlines of what at one

4 time was proposed as the Croatian community of

5 Herceg-Bosna. And you can see by the colour codes,

6 again based roughly on the 1991 census, the ethnic

7 breakdown of the various municipalities.

8 The document that follows that, the page that

9 follows that map, Your Honour, is simply a source, an

10 explanation, which provides details as to the source of

11 the information for the Defence and for the Court's

12 information. Just to have it in one attached document,

13 the last page is again a copy of the Vance-Owen map.

14 I think that's all we have to say, unless the

15 Court has questions, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Scott, this is very

17 useful, 571,2. Would you be able to produce any

18 document which shows, in the same way that this shows,

19 the ethnic composition in 1991, something which shows

20 the ethnic composition at the end of the conflict?

21 MR. SCOTT: We may, Your Honour. I'll

22 inquire. I do know in general terms that because of

23 the war and the limits on available information, I know

24 some of these tasks have been very difficult to do.

25 But I will inquire. Thank you.

Page 8536

1 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Sayers.

2 MR. SAYERS: One brief matter of detail,

3 Mr. President. Would it be possible to have marked as

4 the next Defence exhibit the document that I actually

5 put on the ELMO, but due to my fault I have not had

6 enough copies to be distributed to date. So it's the

7 April the 17th UNPROFOR document.


9 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.

10 JUDGE MAY: Make sure there is a copy for the

11 registry, would you, so it can be probably marked.

12 MR. SAYERS: I'll bring it tomorrow morning,

13 Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now until Monday

15 morning, half past 9.00.

16 --- Whereupon hearing adjourned at 3.40

17 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday, the

18 18th day of October, 1999 at 9.30 a.m.