Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9939

1 --- Thursday, 18th November 1999

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.42 a.m.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning Your Honours,

7 case number IT-95-14/2-T. The Prosecutor versus Dario

8 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

9 JUDGE MAY: Just before the witness is sworn

10 in, there is something I want to raise with the

11 Registrar.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE MAY: The witness would like to take

14 the solemn declaration.

15 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

16 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the

17 truth.

18 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a seat,

19 Mr. Forgrave.


21 MR. SCOTT: Good morning, Your Honour.

22 Mr. Nice sends his apologies.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

24 MR. SCOTT: He is tied up on another

25 matter. He expects to be back in Court this afternoon

Page 9940

1 and sends his apologies.

2 Examined by Mr. Scott:

3 Q. Mr. Forgrave, your correct name, full name,

4 is Martyn Forgrave, M-a-r-t-y-n, spelled with a "Y"; is

5 that correct?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. You went to the Royal Military Academy at

8 Sandhurst in January 1986 and you were commissioned as

9 a British army officer in August 1986; is that correct?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. After receiving additional military

12 training --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel let the

14 witness please make a break between the question and

15 answer. Could you please make a pause between the

16 question and answer.


18 Q. I have already been reminded to -- for us to

19 break a little bit between our answer and question

20 before the interpretation, please.

21 Mr. Forgrave, you continue at this time to be

22 a British army officer?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. What is your current rank?

25 A. I am a Major.

Page 9941

1 Q. Where are you posted?

2 A. I am back with my regiment.

3 Q. All right. Which regiment is that?

4 A. The Cheshire Regiment.

5 Q. Is it correct, sir, in October 1992 you were

6 deployed to Bosnia-Herzegovina and you were appointed

7 as a liaison officer there, and that you were part of

8 an advance group responsible for establishing a base in

9 Vitez, or in the Vitez area, from which an infantry

10 battalion could launch humanitarian operations?

11 A. That's all correct. Yes.

12 Q. And jumping ahead for the moment to the end

13 of your tour, is it correct that your tour of duty then

14 continued from approximately October 1992 to about the

15 9th of March 1993?

16 A. That's right. Yes.

17 Q. Is it correct, sir, that while the role of

18 liaison officer was somewhat undefined when you arrived

19 in Bosnia, the primary goal was to contact as many

20 local personalities as possible in order to develop

21 UNPROFOR's on-the-ground knowledge and insight into the

22 political and military situation?

23 A. That's correct. To facilitate our operations

24 on ground.

25 Q. In fact, is it correct that your unit was the

Page 9942

1 first of the British Battalion forces or UNPROFOR units

2 to be stationed in the Vitez area; is that correct?

3 A. It was actually the first British force.

4 Yes.

5 Q. Is it correct, sir, that soon after you

6 arrived in the Vitez area, Colonel Bob Stewart, who was

7 your commanding officer, Brigadier Cummings and you,

8 met three Croats at the Hotel Vitez which you came to

9 know was then Colonel Blaskic's HVO headquarters?

10 A. Yes, that's correct.

11 Q. Many Croat soldiers were present and the

12 Croat flag was flying outside the building; is that

13 correct?

14 A. Yes, it was.

15 Q. Colonel Stewart and Brigadier Cummings led

16 this meeting, and the purpose of the meeting was to

17 make arrangements for BritBat to use the Vitez school

18 as a base? Is that correct?

19 A. Yes, it was.

20 Q. Now, Major, as you have explained to me in

21 the first several days that you were in Central Bosnia,

22 you and several other officers in the advance team

23 toured the Vitez area with the local HVO commander, who

24 was Mario Cerkez, and Sefkija Djidic, who was the local

25 Muslim commander; is that correct?

Page 9943

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. And is it also correct that part of the

3 activities that you were engaged in at that time was

4 the removal of checkpoints that each side had set up in

5 the area?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. When you met and had these dealings with

8 Mario Cerkez, is it correct, sir, that he was wearing a

9 camouflage uniform with the Croat chequerboard

10 insignia, and he was introduced to you and known to you

11 as the local HVO commander in Vitez?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you understand that during your time in

14 Bosnia, Mr. Cerkez for a time went to Novi Travnik,

15 where he replaced another Bosnian-Croat officer named

16 Malibasic, and then during your tour returned back to

17 Vitez?

18 A. Certainly Mr. Cerkez took over for

19 Malibasic. I can't remember when he returned back from

20 Vitez.

21 Q. Is it correct, sir, that it was apparent to

22 you and to the BritBat officers generally that Mario

23 Cerkez commanded the local HVO troops in Vitez, while

24 Blaskic was the overall commander for Central Bosnia

25 who also had his headquarters in the Vitez area?

Page 9944

1 A. That was my understanding of the chain of

2 command.

3 Q. Can you please relate to the Court a

4 particular incident or interaction that you had with

5 Mr. Cerkez in connection with -- I don't want to

6 suggest too much, but something to do with some media

7 coverage or taping or filming of something to do with

8 booby traps.

9 A. During the initial -- well, during the first

10 week we were in Bosnia, there was obviously an outbreak

11 of violence in the town of Vitez. Both Mr. Cerkez and

12 Sefkija were responsible for trying to lower the

13 tension within the town. And one instance there was a

14 report of booby traps near the school, which Mr. Cerkez

15 said that he had removed by his engineers. Mr. Sefkija

16 denied that any booby traps had been laid by his

17 forces. The general consensus was a media stunt.

18 Q. Was there any consensus or assessment as who

19 had staged, if you will, what you just described as a

20 media stunt?

21 A. I think it's impossible to say.

22 Q. Did you associate the stunt with one side or

23 the other?

24 A. By virtue of the fact that Mr. Cerkez's

25 engineers had removed the alleged booby traps and Mr.

Page 9945

1 Sefkia had actually said they didn't exist, it would

2 seem to indicate that Mr. Cerkez's forces had either

3 put the booby traps or said the booby traps were in

4 existence.

5 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, it's been pointed

6 out to me that the transcript, at least momentarily,

7 has stopped.

8 Q. Let me just ask again, Major, did you

9 associate this -- I am using your word "stunt" -- with

10 one side or the other, that is between the HVO side or

11 the Bosniak side?

12 A. Okay. By virtue of the fact that Mr. Cerkez

13 had said he had removed the booby traps from the

14 school, and Mr. Sefkija had not denied that he had

15 any -- he had laid any booby traps, it seemed to

16 indicate that Mr. Cerkez who was responsible for the

17 stunt. But it's impossible to say.

18 Q. Did you develop any impression about that

19 time about Mr. Cerkez, in terms of his being

20 particularly savvy, if I can use that word, in these

21 kind of dealings or in dealings with the media?

22 A. Not really. I mean, my impression at that

23 stage was that Mr. Cerkez and Mr. Sefkija were doing

24 their best to actually lower the tension within the

25 town of Vitez.

Page 9946

1 Q. Very well. In that regard, is it correct

2 that at a meeting again involving Mr. Cerkez at the HVO

3 headquarters in Vitez, on the 19th of October 1992,

4 that you also met a man named Pero Skopljak, who was

5 described to you as the military police commander in

6 Vitez?

7 A. That's correct. Yes.

8 Q. And do you recall that Mr. Skopljak was

9 dressed in civilian clothes on that meeting?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Had you by this time also met the mayor of

12 Vitez who is known as Santic, Mr. Santic?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. Is it correct that between the two of you,

15 you found that Mr. Skopljak seemed to be more the

16 wheeler-dealer and to have more influence, at least in

17 the matters that you observed, than Mr. Santic?

18 A. Yes. Mr. Santic appeared to be the

19 figurehead, whereas Mr. Skopljak was the power behind

20 the throne, so-to-speak.

21 Q. Is it correct, Major, that during your time

22 in Bosnia, you observed that the Bosnian army or the

23 ABiH was poorly equipped and somewhat of what might be

24 described by some as a peasant army, whereas the HVO

25 was much better equipped with weapons, including

Page 9947

1 anti-tank weapons and multiple rocket launchers?

2 A. That's correct, yes.

3 Q. And can you tell the Court whether the Muslim

4 soldiers had any complaints to the effect that while

5 they were the ones most poorly equipped, they were

6 typically the ones being sent to the front lines?

7 A. It was a common complaint throughout the six

8 months, that they believed they were on front-line duty

9 against the Serbs, whereas a lot of the Croat forces

10 were held back for internal security matters.

11 Q. During your time in the Vitez area, did you

12 come to know that there was an artillery piece referred

13 to or called "Nora" that was approximately a 202- or

14 203-millimetre artillery piece which was based or

15 operated out of a quarry near Vitez?

16 A. That's right. It was not far from the school

17 where we were based.

18 Q. This was an artillery piece operated by the

19 HVO?

20 A. Yes, it is.

21 Q. Did you come to know, Major, that the PTT

22 building in Vitez was the main communications centre in

23 the area?

24 A. That's what I believed, yes.

25 Q. And can you tell the Court, did you come to

Page 9948

1 understand --

2 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down,

3 please.


5 Q. -- BritBat more generally, that the HVO was

6 able to listen in on telephone calls?

7 A. I asked Mr. Cerkez if there was any way of

8 contacting people outside the country, at one stage,

9 whether I could make a telephone call. He said the PTT

10 building was still in operation. This surprised me,

11 because we were having to use radios with a rebroadcast

12 facility in Zagreb.

13 Q. All right. We may have been talking a bit at

14 cross-purposes there, jumping ahead of each other. In

15 addition to Mr. Cerkez having pointed you to the PTT

16 building, did you and BritBat have any understanding

17 whether the HVO had the capability of monitoring or

18 listening to telephone calls?

19 A. As a routine security matter throughout our

20 six months, we wouldn't talk openly on the telephones,

21 as we believed that they had been compromised and we

22 would be listened to.

23 Q. Let me direct your attention, please, to the

24 3rd of December, 1992. Is it correct that on about

25 that date, a Danish soldier was kidnapped while jogging

Page 9949

1 close to Busovaca?

2 A. That's correct.

3 Q. Did Colonel Stewart ask the BritBat liaison

4 officers, including yourself, to contact Dario Kordic

5 to seek to arrange the soldier's release?

6 A. Well, more specifically, he asked Captain

7 Dundas-Whatley to arrange for the soldier's release.

8 Q. All right. Did you have any understanding

9 that the reason that on that particular day that

10 Colonel Stewart may have thought of the notion of

11 approaching Mr. Kordic was because there had been a

12 dinner the evening before at the British officers'

13 mess, if you will, attended by Kordic?

14 A. Yes, I think the dinner in the mess, or in

15 the tent, was an opportunity in which Colonel Stewart

16 and Mr. Kordic could strengthen their relationship. On

17 the basis of that, Colonel Stewart felt that Mr. Kordic

18 might be able to assist in the release of the Danish

19 soldier.

20 Q. Do you have any other recollection of who

21 else from the Bosnian Croat or HVO side, if you will,

22 was at this dinner other than Mr. Kordic?

23 A. I can't remember. I'm sorry.

24 Q. Was this the first time, in fact, that you

25 had met Mr. Kordic?

Page 9950

1 A. I believe it is, yes.

2 Q. Can you tell the Court how he was dressed at

3 that time?

4 A. I can't remember whether he was referred to

5 as Colonel Kordic or Mr. Kordic.

6 Q. Okay, I'm sorry. You can't remember if he

7 was addressed as Colonel Kordic, but was he dressed in

8 a military uniform?

9 A. I'm afraid I can't remember that.

10 Q. Do you recall whether he had any particular

11 group of soldiers or entourage, if you will, with him?

12 A. I seem to remember he had number of

13 bodyguards.

14 Q. Now, following this dinner, and again this

15 incident with the Danish soldier, did it come to your

16 knowledge that, in fact, the British liaison officer,

17 Dundas-Whatley, was, in fact, able to have dealings

18 with Kordic which resulted in the Danish soldier being

19 released?

20 A. Yeah, I believe that to be the case, yes.

21 Q. Well, is it fair to say that would be a

22 matter of some discussion among the British officers at

23 the time?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And it was, in fact, reported back that, as a

Page 9951

1 result of the meetings with Mr. Kordic, that the

2 soldier had been released?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Do you recall, sir, from not only this, but

5 as we get into the course of your testimony, other

6 meetings with Mr. Kordic, that he often wore a rosary

7 around his neck, with a crucifix?

8 A. He would wear a rosary with his uniform.

9 Q. Let me direct your attention to the 10th of

10 January, 1993, in Novi Travnik. Is it correct that an

11 HVO commander there named Malbasic complained that the

12 Muslims had arrested some of his -- that is

13 Malbasic's -- soldiers and was holding them on the

14 other side of town; that you when to see the Muslim

15 commander, Lendo, who said the arrested men were

16 policemen from Croatia? Is that correct?

17 A. That's correct, yes.

18 Q. Did Mr. Lendo, the officer Lendo, give you

19 any indication that, in fact, the HVO was holding three

20 Muslim soldiers?

21 A. Not at that stage, no.

22 Q. Did you learn that at some point?

23 A. Yes, I did, yes.

24 Q. And can you tell the Court, were you able to

25 arrange an exchange of these two sets of prisoners?

Page 9952

1 A. Yes, I was. Tensions were rising in Novi

2 Travnik, and eventually both sides agreed to release

3 their respective prisoners. Mr. Lendo refused to

4 release the weapons belonging to the Croatian

5 policemen, which was actually part of the deal for the

6 release.

7 Q. But the individuals themselves were released?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. Sir, is it also correct that about this time,

10 you began noticing that the HVO in the Vitez/Busovaca

11 area was being reinforced with troops coming from

12 Mostar?

13 A. Yes, more specifically for Novi Travnik,

14 because that's where the problems were at the time.

15 Q. All right. And did you know or recall that

16 the commander in these -- in charge of these

17 reinforcement troops was a Major Ljubic?

18 A. Yes. That's why I remember his name.

19 Q. Do you recall that there were approximately,

20 in this group, about 100 soldiers?

21 A. That's right.

22 Q. And directing your attention -- I'm just

23 going to lead you up to a certain point here. Do you

24 recall that a certain number of these 100 soldiers were

25 dressed differently than the rest of the group?

Page 9953

1 A. Yes, there was a number who were dressed in

2 black uniforms with iron crosses, and there were also a

3 number who had badges denoting the fact they were from

4 Croatia. They had "HV" on their badge, with the

5 Croatian chequerboard.

6 Q. Did the soldiers dressed in black with the

7 iron crosses, did they create any particular impression

8 or cause any kind of association in your mind when you

9 saw them?

10 A. I recall an incident which I went to a

11 meeting in Novi Travnik, in the hotel in Novi Travnik,

12 which was the HVO headquarters. I took a small team

13 which I had as a protection element. I went to meet

14 Mr. Malbasic, and there was no electricity, so the

15 place was lit by candlelight. The soldiers, about 100

16 of them, a lot of them had been drinking. When we

17 entered the foyer of the hotel, there was a chorus of

18 "sieg heil" and Nazi salutes and a lot of

19 gesticulating towards weapons and saying "UNPROFOR,"

20 seemingly to say that we would be their target at some

21 stage.

22 I then went upstairs to a meeting with

23 Mr. Malbasic and left my small team behind in the foyer

24 of the hotel. They were not allowed to go upstairs.

25 During the time they were there, one of the soldiers

Page 9954

1 put a pistol in the sergeant major's mouth. He was one

2 of my protective-elements team.

3 Q. Did this result in any particular protest

4 from either you to Mr. Malbasic or from the BritBat

5 command?

6 A. I can't remember.

7 MR. SCOTT: Let me ask, if I could, the usher

8 to show you what's been previously marked as Exhibit

9 Z1529. It may be helpful to put that on the ELMO

10 momentarily.

11 Q. Sir, looking at what's been marked as

12 Exhibit Z1529, can you tell us, is that the patch or a

13 similar patch to the one you saw on certain of these

14 100 soldiers in the Novi Travnik area?

15 A. That's right. It was by no means all of them

16 wearing a patch; probably a minority.

17 Q. Now, among this group, did you come to learn

18 that there was a German mercenary who apparently spoke

19 English as well?

20 A. That's right, yes.

21 Q. And did this mercenary give you any

22 indication of where some or all of these 100 soldiers

23 had come from?

24 A. He stated to soldiers who were with me that

25 some of the contingent had come from Croatia.

Page 9955

1 Q. Is it correct, sir, that you then identified

2 or assessed the commanding officer, Mr. Ljubic, as a

3 Croat hardliner who came on quite aggressively?

4 A. Absolutely.

5 Q. And did Mr. Ljubic, at some point, say to you

6 that if fighting was required to solve the situation,

7 then fighting there would be?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. And said something to you that the Croat

10 people in the town would be protected?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. SCOTT: I think, Your Honour. We have

13 covered most of what was in paragraph 22, except for

14 the last part.

15 Q. You mentioned a few minutes ago, Major, that

16 Bosnian Croat troops didn't seem to be going to the

17 front lines; that the Muslims, in fact, complained that

18 they were the ones being sent to the front lines.

19 These troops that arrived from the Mostar area, did you

20 have any assessment whether they were sent to or

21 intended to be sent to the front lines?

22 A. My impression was that they were there to

23 alter the balance of power within Novi Travnik at the

24 time.

25 Q. The balance of power vis-à-vis who and who,

Page 9956

1 if you will?

2 A. Well, Novi Travnik was split down the middle,

3 exclusively Croat on one side and exclusively Muslim on

4 the other.

5 Q. Is it correct, Major, that you then saw this

6 same Mr. Ljubic approximately two weeks later at the

7 HVO headquarters at Hotel Vitez?

8 A. That's correct.

9 Q. Did you also see on that occasion on the

10 soldiers that were with Mr. Ljubic, a patch or

11 insignia -- well, can you describe that to us, please.

12 A. I remember they had a green leaf on their

13 patch, with some writing.

14 Q. Do you recall the words "Ludvig Pavlovic"?

15 A. I seem to remember the second part,

16 Pavlovic.

17 Q. All right. Can you tell the Court, sir, were

18 there occasions or was there an occasion when you saw

19 this same patch on soldiers which were manning the

20 Dubravica checkpoint?

21 A. Can I just clarify that the checkpoint is the

22 one on the Zenica road, the other side of Vitez,

23 outside of Dubravica.

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. It is?

Page 9957

1 Q. You have to tell me?

2 A. I saw them on the checkpoint which if it is

3 Dubravica it's the one going out of Vitez on the

4 outskirts if you would go to Zenica by the back route.

5 Q. It's the back road to Zenica?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. And you saw this patch on some of

8 those Croats or Bosnian Croat or Croat soldiers?

9 A. That's right, yes.

10 Q. Now, going back to Mr. Kordic, during your

11 six months in Bosnia, is it correct, sir, that you had

12 dealings or meetings with Mr. Kordic on approximately

13 20 occasions?

14 A. Maybe three times a month.

15 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, I would appreciate

16 if the Prosecution wouldn't lead this particular

17 subject matter.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

19 MR. SCOTT: Very well, Your Honour.

20 Q. During your time and your interactions with

21 Mr. Kordic or in meetings involving Mr. Kordic, let me

22 ask you again, was he ever addressed or approached, if

23 you will, with any particular military title?

24 A. He was known to hold the rank of colonel.

25 Q. And how did you treat Mr. Kordic in your

Page 9958

1 dealings with him?

2 A. With a certain degree of respect, because he

3 held the rank of colonel, which was equivalent to my

4 battalion commander.

5 Q. Had you also formed or reached the assessment

6 at that point in time, is it fair to say, that in order

7 to get on or have successful dealings with Mr. Kordic,

8 you felt that it was more helpful to treat him well and

9 respectfully as opposed to not?

10 A. Yes. I mean, at that stage I had no real

11 reason not to treat him with that respect. And it

12 would actually assist in our -- in us achieving our

13 humanitarian mission.

14 Q. Sir, this person that you had that dealing

15 with, that you identified in Central Bosnia as

16 Mr. Kordic or Colonel Kordic, can you tell us whether

17 he is in the Court today?

18 A. Yes, he is.

19 Q. Can you point him out, please?

20 A. With the glasses at the back.

21 Q. Let the record show, Your Honours, that the

22 defendant or, excuse me, the witness Forgrave has

23 identified the defendant Kordic.

24 Let me go now, Major, to late January of

25 1993. Is it correct that at that time you and two

Page 9959

1 other British Battalion officers came across a

2 roadblock in the Vitez area, this was on the

3 Busovaca-Vitez road, where a senior Dutch officer had

4 been stopped by HVO soldiers and not allowed to pass?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. I am not going to lead you here, but did the

7 HVO soldiers at this roadblock give you any information

8 on whose orders they were acting at that time?

9 A. They said we were not allowed to pass on the

10 orders of Colonel Kordic.

11 Q. Why don't you just take us through the rest

12 of that, what happened after being stopped at this

13 roadblock. What happened after that?

14 A. Well, the first thing to mention, it was

15 strange that we were not allowed freedom of movement.

16 This was the first occasion I had been stopped and

17 physically prevented from moving within a Bosnian Croat

18 area. We then decided that we would force our way

19 through, mainly due to the fact that once we became

20 hostage to every single roadblock, our humanitarian

21 mission would fail. So we drove through with our Land

22 Rover. The two Croat soldiers or Bosnian Croat

23 soldiers raised their weapons and pointed them at us

24 but did not fire.

25 We then carried on to Busovaca to the PTT

Page 9960

1 building where we met Mr. Kordic. Mr. Kordic

2 apologised and stated that the roadblocks were in place

3 to stop Muslim aid agencies smuggling weapons. And he

4 had the roadblock removed.

5 Q. Did you see in your presence or make any

6 observations as to any steps that Mr. Kordic took to

7 have the roadblock removed?

8 A. He made a telephone call, as I recall.

9 Q. Let me move forward to about the 28th or 29th

10 of January 1993. You were accompanying Major Jennings

11 at that time at a meeting at the DutchBat headquarters

12 in Busovaca; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And did you meet or see at this meeting a man

15 called Ante Sliskovic?

16 A. Yes. He was a regular feature at my meetings

17 with Mr. Kordic.

18 Q. All right. Now, here again, Major, I am not

19 going to lead you through some of this. I just simply

20 want to ask you some questions, and if you can amplify,

21 please.

22 What did you observe about any relationship

23 between Mr. Sliskovic and Mr. Kordic?

24 A. Mr. Sliskovic appeared to be the confidant

25 and sounding board of Mr. Kordic, but Mr. Kordic was

Page 9961

1 clearly in charge.

2 Q. In some of your own previous discussions and

3 statements on this matter, sir, is it fair to say that

4 you have used the word that Mr. Sliskovic was Dario

5 Kordic's right-hand man?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. SAYERS: I object to the leading nature

8 of that question, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Don't lead, please.

10 MR. SCOTT: All right, Your Honour.

11 Q. What was your understanding or observation of

12 Mr. Sliskovic's role or position, if you will, in the

13 Busovaca-Vitez area?

14 A. He was responsible for internal security.

15 Q. What was your own assessment or observation

16 of Mr. Sliskovic and any information about him that was

17 known to the British Battalion at that time?

18 A. My personal impression was he was a deeply

19 unpleasant individual. There were rumours from people

20 I had met and through my interpreters that he had been

21 responsible --

22 MR. SAYERS: Objection to rumours, Your

23 Honour. Obviously, that kind of unreliable hearsay is

24 not of assistance to any one.

25 MR. SCOTT: Let me see if I can ask some

Page 9962

1 additional questions, Your Honour, please.

2 Q. Major, if you could limit yourself from what

3 we might call rumour. If you can, can you tell us

4 whether there was discussion, if you will, official

5 discussion among the BritBat officers, the intelligence

6 officers, et cetera, about information gained about

7 various personalities in Central Bosnia?

8 A. In statements given to myself through my

9 interpreter, in my dealings within the six months I was

10 in Central Bosnia, I was told that he had been

11 responsible for various "atrocities."

12 Q. Can you simply comment on whether, in your

13 meetings with Mr. Kordic, was it more or less the case

14 that Mr. Sliskovic would also be present?

15 A. That's correct.

16 Q. I am sorry. My question was, was it more

17 often the case that Mr. Sliskovic was present at these

18 same meetings with Mr. Kordic or only rarely?

19 A. Almost entirely he was with Mr. Kordic.

20 Q. I am directing your attention to the 5th of

21 February 1993. I am at paragraph 30, Your Honour. Is

22 it correct that you went to see Mr. Kordic at his

23 headquarters in Busovaca?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. If I can ask the usher to please show you

Page 9963

1 what's been marked as Exhibit Z1691, 1697 and 1698.

2 I suppose if we could start with -- whichever

3 one is fine. Just see what you have here. All right.

4 For the record, Exhibit Z1691 is on the ELMO. Can you

5 tell the Court, Major, is this the building where you

6 met with Mr. Kordic on the 5th of February 1993?

7 A. Yes, it is. That's where all the meetings

8 were conducted.

9 Q. And is this the location that you

10 associate -- what they would call at least one of Mr.

11 Kordic's headquarters?

12 A. This is the -- yes, this is the headquarters

13 I met with Mr. Kordic on every single occasion.

14 Q. All right. And what is shown, is it not, in

15 Exhibit Z1691, is a photograph of what some people

16 would say is the PTT building in Busovaca; is that

17 correct?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. If you could look then again momentarily at

20 Exhibit 1697. Is that also a photograph of the PTT

21 building in Busovaca where Mr. Kordic's headquarters

22 were located?

23 A. Yes. It's the same building.

24 Q. And the same regarding Exhibit 1698; is that

25 a third photograph of the same building?

Page 9964

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. All right. Now, specifically in connection

3 with the 5th of February, did you meet with Mr. Kordic

4 at any particular location in that building?

5 A. I always met Mr. Kordic in his office, which

6 was down two flights of stairs and on the right-hand

7 side.

8 Q. This office was below ground level?

9 A. I can't answer that with any degree of

10 authority.

11 Q. Well, when you walked in at the entrance

12 which was shown on the photographs, and you said you

13 walked in the entrance and you went down two flights of

14 stairs?

15 A. That's correct, yes.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. It might have -- sorry. The room didn't have

18 windows, as you could see out of them. It may have had

19 slits at the top, but I can't remember.

20 Q. Can you describe to the Court what you saw in

21 this particular room in terms of what was on the walls;

22 the trappings of the room, if you will?

23 A. There was a map, I think it was a 1-20.000,

24 probably a JNA map, which was marked up with the

25 current military situation.

Page 9965

1 Q. As a professional military officer, sir, did

2 this room appear to you to have any particular type of

3 room or any particular type of operation associated

4 with it?

5 A. Up to that stage, I considered it very much

6 Mr. Kordic's office. At that stage, the current

7 military situation was that the Bosnian forces were

8 surrounding Busovaca and there was a possibility of it

9 becoming a Croat enclave. Mr. Kordic pointed out the

10 current front line, which seemed to suggest that

11 Busovaca was surrounded, and there were a number of

12 arrows depicting the various pressure points on the

13 Busovaca encirclement.

14 Q. You say arrows. Just so the record is clear,

15 are you talking about arrows on the map?

16 A. Yes, they were. Marked in red.

17 Q. All right. Would it be fair to characterise

18 this room at that point in its configuration as an

19 operations room?

20 MR. SAYERS: Once again, Your Honour, I

21 object to the leading nature of that question.

22 JUDGE MAY: Don't lead, please.


24 Q. Is there anything else that you can recall

25 about the way that the room was set up at that

Page 9966

1 particular time? Anything else you haven't told us

2 already?

3 A. Mr. Kordic stated that they were able to

4 intercept ABiH radio traffic, and some of the

5 intercepts seemed to suggest or certainly suggested to

6 him that they had extremist forces to which he referred

7 to as the Mujahedin. There was a fax machine in the

8 corner. To me, he was able to receive information

9 about the current military situation from that office.

10 Q. Do you recall whether on that occasion

11 Mr. Kordic showed you any particular items in

12 connection with his discussions with you about the

13 military situation at that time?

14 A. Yes. Mr. Kordic was clearly distressed by

15 the situation and the presence of Mujahedin in the

16 area. And as further evidence he showed -- I suppose

17 it would be an Islamic prayer with a picture on it,

18 which he said had been taken from a Mujahedin soldier.

19 Q. You mentioned a fax machine in the room. Can

20 you say anything more about it? Did Mr. Kordic show

21 you any particular fax?

22 A. No. I mean, I think, as I recall, he had a

23 fax in his hand, but I didn't read the text or anything

24 like that.

25 Q. Without having read it, did he describe it or

Page 9967

1 say anything to you about it?

2 A. Only that they were able to intercept radio

3 traffic, and this was evidence that the Mujahedin were

4 supporting the ABiH encirclement of Busovaca.

5 Q. Can you tell the Court, please, whether on

6 occasion Mr. Kordic made some inquiry of you about the

7 ethnic origin of one of your interpreters?

8 A. I used to always use Dobrila, who was a

9 Serb. I remember taking Dobrila to one of the

10 meetings, and Mr. Kordic said along the lines that if

11 he -- he would deal with Croat interpreters and also

12 Serb interpreters, because they had to be neutral

13 anyway.

14 Q. Was there any further inquiry made about the

15 ethnic origin of Dobrila?

16 A. Mr. Kordic knew that she was a Serb.

17 Basically, the message was that he would deal with a

18 Croat interpreter and, if he had to, a Serb

19 interpreter, because they had to be neutral in the

20 geographical position they found themselves. And the

21 suggestion was he wouldn't deal with a Muslim

22 interpreter.

23 Q. I am directing your attention to the 23rd of

24 February of 1993. Do you recall a situation, sir,

25 where a Dutch military vehicle was stolen or hijacked

Page 9968

1 near Vitez by persons wearing HVO military police

2 uniforms?

3 A. That's right. Yes.

4 Q. Did you meet with Colonel Stewart to go to

5 Vitez to try to recover the vehicle?

6 A. That's right.

7 Q. Is it correct that you and Colonel Stewart

8 had some dealings with the local HVO police chief, but

9 soon made the assessment that you were unlikely to get

10 much help from this individual?

11 A. Yes. Bearing in mind that the Dutch soldiers

12 had reported the two individuals that had hijacked the

13 car were wearing HVO uniforms. There was a vacuum of

14 information when we went to the police station in Vitez

15 about what could have happened.

16 Q. In the course of inquiries that same day,

17 were you able to determine more information or learn

18 more information about where the vehicle -- where you

19 at least thought the vehicle had been taken?

20 A. The suggestion was, as I recall, that the HVO

21 police chief in Travnik was responsible. He was

22 believed to have Mafia connections.

23 Q. Can you tell the Court, did you then proceed

24 to any particular senior Croat official to try to

25 recover the vehicle?

Page 9969

1 A. Yes, I went to see Mr. Kordic. I would just

2 like to state, you know, he was very helpful in us

3 dealing with problems such as hijacked vehicles. And

4 if there was one individual who could resolve a

5 problem, it would be Mr. Kordic.

6 Q. In particular in regard to this Dutch

7 vehicle, do you remember any particular conversation or

8 position that Mr. Kordic stated to you when you

9 approached him about this?

10 A. I think, yes. He stated that he didn't

11 believe it would have been HVO soldiers who would have

12 hijacked the vehicle, but he would do his best, I

13 think, to get the vehicle back.

14 Q. And what happened either that day or the next

15 day?

16 A. I think it was the following day, the vehicle

17 was returned.

18 Q. Is it correct that, to your knowledge,

19 Mr. Kordic contacted Major Jennings, who went to -- who

20 then went to Vitez or to where Kordic was located and

21 Mr. Kordic handed over, essentially, the vehicle and

22 its keys?

23 A. Yes. I mean, certainly Major Jennings

24 collected the vehicle from, I think, Busovaca.

25 Q. Now, was there a second or at least a further

Page 9970

1 similar incident involving a stolen ITN, which was a

2 news agency, a stolen ITN vehicle?

3 A. Yes. I can't remember the exact date it was

4 stolen, but again I arranged a meeting with Mr. Kordic,

5 who was extremely helpful in returning the vehicle.

6 Q. In finishing up here, Major, can you just

7 tell the Court in your own words, your own assessment,

8 of the -- who appeared to you during your six months in

9 Central Bosnia to be the principle decision-maker or

10 authority figure in that area?

11 A. Mr. Kordic was the political military figure

12 and he was the man I dealt with for matters of a

13 serious nature because he was and seemed to be able to

14 influence the local situation.

15 Q. And you may have indicated earlier, is it

16 correct to say that you met with Mr. Kordic directly

17 something around 20 times during your tour?

18 A. Yes. I was there for, I think, just under

19 six months, and maybe three times a months, which make

20 it 18, 20 times.

21 Q. What was your observation or knowledge, or

22 BritBat's assessment for that matter, of the

23 relationship between Colonel Blaskic and Mr. Kordic?

24 A. I can't recall the actual assessment as such,

25 a formal BritBat assessment of the relationship between

Page 9971

1 Blaskic and Kordic.

2 Q. What was your assessment?

3 A. My assessment was that Colonel Blaskic was

4 the principal military figure, Mr. Kordic was the

5 political military figure, and as the situation

6 developed and intensified, Mr. Kordic seemed to assume

7 more of a military persona, if you like, and tended not

8 to use Colonel Blaskic, because I found Mr. Kordic an

9 awful lot more effective in dealing with various

10 problems.

11 Q. I am looking at the transcript, Major. Just

12 to be clear, when you said "tended not to use Colonel

13 Blaskic" you are saying you tended not to use Colonel

14 Blaskic?

15 A. Yes, me. But Colonel Stewart, because he

16 was, obviously, spent -- I was visiting lots of

17 personalities on the ground. My commanding officer was

18 based in Vitez, so he was on the doorstep of Colonel

19 Blaskic's headquarters. So he would obviously visit

20 him an awful lot more.

21 Q. But in your role as liaison officer, you are

22 telling us that the person you would go more directly

23 to would be Mr. Kordic?

24 A. Absolutely.

25 MR. SAYERS: Objection, Your Honour, we have

Page 9972

1 already been over this.

2 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I thought it was a

3 bit confusing, frankly, the way it came out. I am

4 trying to clarify, Your Honour. I think we are

5 completed.

6 Q. What was your assessment of Mr. Kordic as a

7 leader, as an individual, based on your own dealings

8 with him and what his -- if you will, reputation in the

9 community?

10 A. I think he was well respected by the Bosnian

11 Croats and equally, I think, he was feared by the

12 Bosnian Muslims, or his reputation made them fear.

13 Q. When people came into rooms with him or were

14 participating in meetings with Mr. Kordic, can you just

15 describe to the Court how the other Bosnian Croats or

16 the Muslims in the room for that matter would act

17 toward or with Mr. Kordic? Just based on what you

18 saw.

19 A. I think the Bosnian Croats would give him

20 respect and deference that his rank and position gave

21 him. I can't recall Muslims in the room reacting one

22 way or another.

23 Q. In your dealings with the Muslims in Central

24 Bosnia, did you have any assessment of, if you will,

25 who they were more concerned about in terms of on the

Page 9973

1 Bosnian Croat side? Mr. Blaskic, Mr. Kordic or anyone

2 else?

3 MR. SAYERS: Objection to the speculative

4 nature of the question, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: The witness -- we allow hearsay.

6 The witness can say what he was told. Now, what we

7 make of it is a matter for us. Now, let's try and get

8 on.


10 Q. This is my final question, Your Honour.

11 If you can help us with that, Major, please

12 do. If not, we'll be completed.

13 JUDGE MAY: Major, just tell us, if you

14 would, what were you told by Muslims about their views

15 of Kordic?

16 A. They feared him.

17 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. I have

18 no further questions.

19 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers:

20 Q. Major Forgrave, my name is Steven Sayers,

21 together with my colleague Mr. Naumovski we represent

22 Mr. Kordic and the gentlemen to my left are Mr. Kovacic

23 and Mr. Mikulicic, and they represent Mr. Cerkez.

24 Since we both speak the same language, Major,

25 it would be very helpful if you could just pause

Page 9974

1 briefly between the end of my question and your answer,

2 and I will try to do the same, bearing in mind the

3 interpreters.

4 Sir, you yourself do not speak Croatian, do

5 you?

6 A. No, I don't.

7 Q. And would it be fair to say that some of your

8 interpreters were of fairly poor quality, in your

9 experience?

10 A. Some of the interpreters were of poor

11 quality, but those were usually confined to

12 administrative posts, whereas the interpreter I used

13 was also used by Colonel Stewart, Dobrila, and she was

14 of high quality.

15 Q. Sir, you gave a statement to the

16 investigators who worked for the office of the

17 Prosecution on April the 26th and April the 28th, 1995,

18 approximately four and a half years ago; correct?

19 A. That's correct, yes.

20 Q. You actually had some notes available to you

21 to refresh your recollection, I believe, sir, and they

22 were faxed to you on the 27th of April of 1995 from

23 Tessa Kennedy Design, apparently in England, correct?

24 A. That's correct.

25 Q. Did you make any other notes apart from these

Page 9975

1 contemporaneously?

2 A. No, those were the notes I made for the first

3 week, and I found myself too busy to continue with the

4 note-taking.

5 Q. It would be fair to say, sir, that your first

6 meeting with Mr. Kordic, I think you've testified to

7 this, was at the dinner on December [Realtime

8 transcript read in error "November"] the 2nd of 1993;

9 is that correct?

10 A. I believe that to be the case, yes.

11 Q. So for the first two months of your tour in

12 Central Bosnia, you had had no meetings with him at

13 all?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. I believe, sir, that you were 27 years old at

16 the time of your tour in Central Bosnia; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You, I believe, were one of four liaison

20 officers in the Vitez region -- actually, one of three;

21 Captain Hughes, I believe, was deployed to Gornji

22 Vakuf. Correct?

23 A. I think there were five in total, but it

24 covered from Tuzla right down to Gornji Vakuf. My

25 specific area covered Novi Travnik, Travnik, Vitez, up

Page 9976

1 to Zenica -- but not including the town -- and then

2 down as far as Busovaca.

3 Q. All right. Thank you.

4 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, one minor item on

5 page 36, line 23. I think the date "November the 2nd"

6 should actually read "December the 2nd." That was the

7 date that the major first met Mr. Kordic at a dinner,

8 in 1992.

9 Q. I believe, sir, that your area of

10 responsibility basically overlapped with Captain

11 Dundas-Whatley's; is that correct?

12 A. Overlapped in the sense that I had to return

13 to England early to pursue my career course in

14 examinations for promotion. He took over my area. But

15 until that time, they didn't overlap.

16 Q. Well, you were away on leave, I believe, from

17 December the 19th to December the 29th of 1992;

18 correct?

19 A. Yeah. He stood in for me whilst I was away.

20 Q. Now, your duty was, as you've said, to

21 facilitate the delivery of humanitarian aid to needy

22 persons in your area of responsibility; correct?

23 A. Yes, that was our mandate.

24 Q. That mandate was geared directly to aiding

25 U.N. sponsored organisations in the delivery of that

Page 9977

1 aid, was it not, sir?

2 A. Yes, but it didn't exclude assisting other

3 humanitarian agencies.

4 Q. But BritBat was not authorised to provide

5 armed escorts to purely private convoys, though, was

6 it?

7 A. Not specifically, but I think it was a matter

8 of interpretation for the commanding officer at that

9 stage. He believed that his mandate sanctioned him to

10 escort non-U.N. convoys.

11 Q. Was there a written mandate, or was this just

12 the understanding of the commanding officer?

13 A. He was obviously working from the U.N.

14 mandate.

15 Q. Was it in writing, sir?

16 A. He would have received it in writing, yes.

17 Q. Did you ever see it?

18 A. I can't recall seeing it. I may well have

19 done. The commanding officer would obviously use the

20 mandate and then -- to design his plan and give his

21 orders.

22 Q. Let me just ask you a few questions in

23 connection with your role as a liaison officer, Major.

24 Would it be fair to describe the process of information

25 collection as a learning process and as evolutionary?

Page 9978

1 A. Could you just explain "evolutionary"?

2 Q. Yes. You learned more about the local

3 political situation and the military situation as time

4 went on; correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. And, in fact, you passed on your knowledge of

7 the information that you had gathered about the

8 political and military situation in your area of

9 responsibility to Captain Dundas-Whatley when you left

10 on March the 9th, 1993; right?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. He had actually taken over from you in late

13 February of 1993, had he not, sir?

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. I take it that you found Captain

16 Dundas-Whatley to be a capable and knowledgeable

17 liaison officer?

18 A. Yes, absolutely.

19 Q. And a perceptive observer, such as yourself?

20 A. [No audible response]

21 Q. And you both worked closely together and

22 talked about what you had found out about the situation

23 and passed that information between yourselves, as with

24 the other liaison officers; would that be fair to say?

25 A. Yes. We didn't work in isolation. We were

Page 9979

1 debriefed every time we went out, and we were also

2 given access to the information they had gained during

3 our visits, so we had a more complete picture.

4 Q. As part of the information-gathering aspects

5 of your duties, Major, would it be fair to say that you

6 turned over all information that you found to be of

7 significance to the military information cell each

8 evening?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. That cell was headed up, I believe, by

11 Captain Chris Leighton, ably assisted by Sergeant James

12 Connelly?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And so, in this regard, every meeting of

15 significance, every event of significance, would be

16 reported by you to the military information cell, which

17 in turn would prepare contemporaneous summaries of the

18 information related to the cell by you and your fellow

19 liaison officers; correct?

20 A. My duty was merely to state my impressions

21 and state about various events that had happened that

22 day. I can't vouch for whether the intelligence cell

23 recorded word for word every single visit that I

24 conducted.

25 Q. I understand, Major, but basically the --

Page 9980

1 correct me if I'm wrong: The military information cell

2 prepared each day, or each evening, military

3 information summaries or milinfosums, and they

4 basically provide, at a snapshot in time, the

5 evolutionary state of the knowledge that you and the

6 other liaison officers had gathered in the course of

7 their work, along with other events of significance;

8 correct?

9 A. It was a summary, yes.

10 Q. These milinfosums would be updated on a

11 fairly continuous basis, would they not?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Occasionally the information discovered was

14 found to be incorrect and subsequently corrected;

15 correct? Is that accurate to say?

16 A. I suspect that might be the case. I don't

17 know. I was never responsible for correcting them.

18 Q. All right. Your principal area of focus in

19 your area of responsibility was from Turbe to Travnik,

20 north up to Guca Gora, and then down to Novi Travnik

21 and east to Vitez, with an occasional visit to

22 Busovaca; would that be fair to say?

23 A. We took over responsibility for Busovaca at

24 the request of the Dutch transport battalion, so merely

25 my area was extended. So once it was extended, I

Page 9981

1 tended to visit Busovaca when I needed to.

2 Q. And the request from DutchBat came to your

3 commanding officer in January of 1993; correct? When

4 the tensions started rising in the Busovaca area and

5 actually a conflict broke out?

6 A. I can't remember exactly. I thought it was

7 slightly earlier than that.

8 Q. Isn't it true that this was an extremely

9 large area for a single liaison officer, and that's why

10 Major Jennings essentially filled in for you during a

11 three-week period in February of 1993?

12 A. Yes, I can't remember when Major Jennings

13 filled in for me, but yes, it was a large area, and I

14 tended to go where I was needed or where the problems

15 were.

16 Q. And as far as your duties were concerned,

17 Major, the principal problems were really up on the

18 front lines in the area of Travnik and Turbe; isn't

19 that correct?

20 A. That was just part of the problem. There

21 were also problems in Novi Travnik, just as there were

22 problems east of Busovaca. There were a number of

23 problems I dealt with, and there were a number of

24 problems in Vitez.

25 Q. All right. One very brief question on

Page 9982

1 artillery resources, sir: There is no question that

2 both sides actually had artillery resources, is there?

3 In fact, I believe you may yourself have reported that

4 the Armija forces, the ABiH forces, had a

5 152-millimetre artillery piece in their arsenal?

6 A. I may well have -- yeah. I can't recall

7 that, but you're -- you're probably right. The only

8 point I would make is that certainly when we first

9 started, that the HVO were better equipped and better

10 trained as a military force, in my military judgement.

11 MR. SAYERS: I wonder if the usher would show

12 you a document that has previously been marked as

13 Exhibit D45/1. And while that's being located, Major,

14 I'll just let you know that that is a copy of

15 milinfosum number 70, dated January the 9th of 1993.

16 Q. Three very brief questions on this document.

17 Under the first item on page 1, under the "Travnik"

18 entry, right at the end, it is recorded that the LO

19 reported that a BiH heavy artillery piece,

20 152-millimetre or larger, was believed to be located to

21 the east of the hospital in the north of the town.

22 Were there any other liaison officers at this area

23 apart from yourself, or does this refer to a report

24 that you, in fact, made?

25 A. I can't remember submitting this report. I

Page 9983

1 could well have submitted it.

2 Q. All right. Were you aware, sir, that

3 combatants had actually been spotted wearing a variety

4 of uniforms, anything that was really available,

5 including British uniforms?

6 Perhaps that's not a clear question, Major.

7 Why don't you turn to the second page under item 5, the

8 Vares entry.

9 Were you aware that some of the units within

10 the Cheshire Regiment had actually seen soldiers in the

11 Vares area who had been dressed in surplus British

12 uniforms?

13 A. No. I had heard statements that a variety of

14 uniforms were used. I can't really recall, in my area,

15 ever seeing any British uniforms.

16 Q. All right. If you would just turn to the

17 last page, sir, under the last entry, right at the

18 bottom of that page, let me just ask you, the people

19 that you saw in the Novi Travnik area, the minority of

20 the 100-or-so soldiers about which you have given

21 testimony and who were dressed in black uniforms, that

22 was not the first time that people had been spotted

23 wearing black uniforms on either side, was it?

24 A. There had been reports that HOS had been seen

25 in black uniforms. Again, I can't remember any ABiH

Page 9984

1 soldiers being seen in black uniforms. It could well

2 have been the case.

3 Q. If you could just take a look at the

4 milinfosum, I'll read it to you: The recce call sign

5 passed 8th Brigade headquarters and stopped at the main

6 headquarters at Hotel Borac, and then there is a grid

7 reference. At the HQ, there were approximately 40 to

8 50 soldiers in black uniforms. They were called the

9 Black Swans, and referred to themselves as special

10 forces. These were ABiH forces; correct, Major?

11 A. Yes. I don't know where that grid reference

12 is.

13 Q. Does that jog your memory about discussions

14 between you and your fellow liaison officers about ABiH

15 special forces having been spotted wearing black

16 uniforms?

17 A. I had certainly heard of the Black Swans. I

18 can't recall ever having any discussions whether --

19 what uniforms they had; neither do I ever recall ever

20 seeing them in my area of responsibility.

21 Q. Let me just ask you a few questions, Major,

22 about the balance of forces and the location of

23 headquarters. It is true, isn't it, that the HVO

24 forces in Travnik were vastly outnumbered by ABiH

25 forces, in the order of 10 or 11 to 1? Correct?

Page 9985

1 A. I can't remember the exact figures. My

2 impression was, as I stated before, that a lot of them

3 were away on the Turbe front and down west of Gornji

4 Vakuf.

5 Q. All right.

6 MR. SAYERS: I wonder if the usher would show

7 you the document that's been marked as Exhibit D101/1,

8 which is a copy of milinfosum number 79, dated January

9 the 18th, 1993.

10 Q. We can deal with this very briefly, Major.

11 There's a reference to an LO team visiting a BiH

12 exchange officer in Travnik. Was this Major Beba

13 Salko; do you know?

14 A. It would have been, yes.

15 Q. And Major Salko claimed to you that the BiH

16 were much stronger than the HVO in Travnik, and that

17 they had 11.000 soldiers at their disposal in

18 comparison to only about 1.000 HVO soldiers; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And you saw nothing to persuade you that that

21 was incorrect, did you?

22 A. As a general observation, I didn't take much

23 stock in, when people gave me figures, whether they

24 were accurate or not. Most figures, in my experience,

25 tended to be inflated for one purpose or another.

Page 9986

1 Q. What you're saying, I take it, is that it was

2 not uncommon for exaggeration and hyperbole to be used

3 by both of the combatant sides which you were having

4 dealings with; correct?

5 A. Absolutely.

6 Q. And with the third side, too, the Serbs, I

7 take it?

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. All right.

10 A. Obviously we had less contact with the Serbs,

11 so ...

12 Q. A few questions in connection with the 333rd

13 Mountain Brigade, sir. Were you aware that the

14 headquarters of this brigade had been located in the

15 village of Kacuni, approximately four or five

16 kilometres south of Busovaca?

17 A. Sorry, four or five kilometres south, did you

18 say?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. My memory is -- exact details of which

21 brigade were there, et cetera, I can't recall; but yes,

22 I had some dealings, with Major Jennings in that area,

23 with the ABiH commander. I'm sure if you gave me his

24 name, I would recognise it.

25 Q. Does the name Dzevad Mekic --

Page 9987

1 A. Mekic, yes.

2 Q. -- ring a bell?

3 Mr. Mekic was the commander of the 333rd

4 Mountain Brigade at its headquarters in Kacuni;

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Did you know that the 333rd Mountain Brigade

8 had located to Kacuni, according to the military

9 information summaries available to the British forces,

10 by January the 15th of 1993, just a week before the

11 fighting erupted in that area?

12 A. I can't recall, but yes. Possibly.

13 Q. Let me just ask the usher to show you Exhibit

14 D102/1. Maybe that will refresh your memory.

15 Major, under item one on this milinfosum

16 dated number 75 January 15, 1993, it's recorded that

17 the BiH Brigade located in Kacuni is designated as the

18 333rd -- it says Brdska Brigade, but that means

19 Mountain Brigade. That's consistent with your

20 recollection; correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. It's also recorded there that the HVO Brigade

23 was called the Brigade Nikola Zrinjska, and commanded

24 by one Niko Jozinovic. Did you ever meet

25 Mr. Jozinovic, the commander of that brigade in

Page 9988

1 Busovaca, sir?

2 A. I was present at a number of ceasefire

3 agreements. Whether he was there, I can't recall. I

4 suspect -- I remember Mr. Mekic being present, and I

5 presume his opposite number was there, or certainly his

6 deputy. But I can't remember the exact name.

7 Q. All right. There has been some confusion

8 regarding the date that the 325th Mountain Brigade was

9 formed, sir. I wonder if the usher would just show you

10 milinfosum 80, which I have here, dated January the

11 19th, 1992. I would like to have this marked as the

12 next Defence Exhibit for Mr. Kordic. Thank you.

13 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D127/1.

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, when you have dealt

15 with this document, we'll take the usual adjournment.

16 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Mr. President. I have

17 basically two questions in connection with this

18 document.

19 Q. If you would turn to the second page, sir,

20 under item number two, "Vitez." The military

21 information cell had actually acquired a document with

22 the stamp of the 325th Mountain Brigade on it. Do you

23 see that?

24 A. The milinfosum recites the stamp on the

25 document that's attached to this, and you can see it

Page 9989

1 right on the end of the document, if you wish, was that

2 of the 325th Broska Brigade. I am just trying to

3 locate it. The quality of reproduction is poor.

4 Q. Approximately one inch down in the text.

5 Just after the date, 15 January --

6 A. The stamp on the document was that of the

7 brigade. Yes.

8 Q. So there isn't any doubt that the 325th

9 Mountain Brigade existed as of the date of this

10 milinfosum, which was January the 19th, 1993?

11 A. Correct.

12 Q. It would be a fair assumption. And the

13 headquarters of that formation was in the village of

14 Preocica. Does that ring a bell?

15 A. If that's -- I can remember, I think, going

16 to the headquarters. I can't again remember the exact

17 name.

18 Q. Very well.

19 A. Along the main Busovaca road, out from

20 Busovaca, if you turn right and you go up the hill, I

21 think that was where the headquarters was.

22 MR. SAYERS: This would be a convenient time

23 to break, Mr. President. If the Court so wishes.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll adjourn now 'til half

25 past 11.00.

Page 9990

1 One housekeeping matter, and that is tomorrow

2 the Court wishes to start at 9.00 in order to finish

3 rather earlier than usual, shortly after midday, unless

4 that is inconvenient to anybody.

5 And similarly, next week, the 26th of

6 November, we'll have the same hours, beginning at 9.00,

7 finishing at midday. Very well. We'll adjourn.

8 --- Recess taken at 11.04 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers.

11 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Major, we were talking about the --

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Sayers.


15 Q. We were talking about the 325th Mountain

16 Brigade dispositions just before the break. I wonder

17 if the usher would show you another milinfosum

18 identified as Exhibit D61/1. And that's from February

19 the 2nd of 1993. I have a few questions connected with

20 note 1 on the first page, and note 4 on the second

21 page, Major.

22 First, do you or do you not actually recall

23 having direct dealings with the commander of the Nikola

24 Subic-Zrinjski Brigade, Niko Jozinovic?

25 A. I don't have a recollection of that.

Page 9991

1 Q. It's true, isn't it, that the area to the

2 west of Busovaca, as of the 2nd of February 1993, was

3 controlled by ABiH forces, namely, those of the 325th

4 Mountain Brigade, as reflected in this milinfosum?

5 A. The area west of Busovaca?

6 Q. Yes. Just to help you out, I would also

7 suggest to you that the area to the east of Busovaca

8 was controlled by the forces of the 333rd Mountain

9 Brigade and by another detachment that we'll come to in

10 just a second, the 7th Muslim brigade. Is that

11 consistent with your recollection?

12 A. I can't remember exactly what the disposition

13 of troops was in February that year, I'm afraid.

14 Q. Very well. Could you just turn to the --

15 JUDGE MAY: Major, if you can't remember,

16 it's six years ago, it would be perfectly

17 understandable if you say so.

18 Mr. Sayers, we have these documents. If the

19 Major is simply not able to remember, it would be much

20 quicker for you to produce the documents in due course

21 and refer to them through your own witnesses.

22 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Mr. President. We will try

23 to do so. Let me see if I can jog the Major's memory.

24 Q. On the second page of this document there is

25 a reference there to sources stating that elements of

Page 9992

1 the 7th Muslim Brigade were deployed north of Kacuni,

2 and that at least 80 soldiers from that brigade had

3 been moved to the area about five days earlier. Is

4 that consistent with your recollection, or do you not

5 have any recollection?

6 A. It is fairly consistent with my

7 recollection. I believe the time scale of when I

8 visited Mr. Kordic's headquarters and his references to

9 the Mujahedin would relate to the 7th Muslimski

10 Brigade.

11 Q. Very well. The 7th Muslim Brigade were

12 forces under the command of General Enver

13 Hadzihasanovic, headquartered in Zenica, or at least he

14 was headquartered in Zenica, correct?

15 A. Yes, he and his headquarters from Zenica,

16 yes.

17 Q. You yourself had some dealings with

18 Mujahedins; isn't that correct, sir? You were actually

19 tasked by your commanding officer, Lieutenant-Colonel

20 Stewart, to investigate the execution-style murders of

21 two British mercenaries, Derek Arnold and Ted Skinner,

22 on the 3rd of February, correct?

23 A. That's correct.

24 Q. And they had been executed by Mujahedins, had

25 they not?

Page 9993

1 A. That was our assessment, yes.

2 Q. Let me turn very briefly, Major, to the chain

3 of command which you talked about. There is no

4 question that the commanding officer of the Central

5 Bosnia operative zone throughout your tour of duty was

6 Colonel Tihomir Blaskic, correct?

7 A. That was my belief, yes.

8 Q. And there is no question equally that he had

9 full military command and control over the soldiers

10 under his command, including the military police and

11 special purpose units, correct?

12 A. I think you are overemphasising the point

13 saying "full military control." I would say on both

14 sides, the ABiH and the HVO, did not have full military

15 control over their soldiers.

16 Q. Very well. Is it not true that Colonel

17 Blaskic reported in the chain of command to the chief

18 of the general staff of the HVO in Mostar, Brigadier

19 Milivoj Petkovic?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. As far as you were aware, Colonel Blaskic

22 carried out orders that he was given by the general

23 staff of the HVO in Mostar, correct?

24 A. I would just like to emphasise that I don't

25 think it was so clean-cut, the chain of command, in the

Page 9994

1 same style as, say, the Dutch call a western army. I

2 can only assume that he carried out those orders.

3 Q. I wonder if the usher would simply show you

4 Exhibit D91/1. You were asked, Major, to give several

5 opinions as a professional military officer, which

6 clearly you are. I would just like to show you this

7 order issued by the commander of the Central Bosnia

8 operative zone on the 16th of January 1993 to various

9 divisions.

10 It would be fair to assume that the author of

11 this order had the ability to issue or the authority to

12 issue orders to those formations listed on the first

13 page, correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, as I understand it, the HVO armed forces

16 in the Central Bosnia operative zone, with the

17 qualifications that you've previously articulated,

18 Major, but those forces were basically organised into

19 various municipality-based brigades. Would that be

20 fair to say?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the brigade commanders in turn in the

23 chain of command reported directly up to their superior

24 officer, who would be Colonel Blaskic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9995

1 Q. You never yourself saw Mr. Kordic in the

2 headquarters of Colonel Blaskic at the Hotel Vitez, did

3 you, sir?

4 A. No.

5 Q. I take it, that you were aware that

6 Colonel Blaskic's second in command was Franjo Nakic?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. All right. It would be fair to say, would it

9 not, that in the assessment of your colleagues and of

10 the military information cell, it was the view of

11 the -- of BritBat that Colonel Blaskic did command all

12 HVO military operations in the Central Bosnia region,

13 correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you know that Colonel Blaskic was, in

16 fact, a career military officer?

17 A. Yes, I knew that.

18 Q. Were you aware that he had actually been

19 commissioned as a captain first class in the former

20 JNA?

21 A. Yes. I think he was in air defence, if my

22 memory serves me correctly.

23 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Kordic himself was a

24 journalist before the war?

25 A. Yes, I was. Yes.

Page 9996

1 Q. All right. Major, I would just like to

2 change the pace here a little bit. I would like to

3 take up in a chronological fashion the items that you

4 covered in your direct examination; the first being

5 your visits to Vitez and Novi Travnik in October of

6 1992.

7 I believe you reached Vitez on the night of

8 October the 18th, 1992, and the next day you were

9 introduced to the local HVO military commander, the

10 local military police commander, and the deputy

11 minister of defence, at least according to page 1 of

12 the notes that you prepared contemporaneously. Is that

13 fair to say?

14 A. Yes. I mean, I haven't --

15 Q. Please tell me, sir, do you have a

16 recollection of their names --

17 A. The only one I ever remember meeting is Mr.

18 Cerkez.

19 Q. So he was the local HVO military commander?

20 A. That was the assumption at the time, yes.

21 Q. You did find out, sir, that the military

22 police commander in the Vitez area was a gentleman by

23 the name of Pasko Ljubicic, correct?

24 A. Again, the name is -- I don't recall.

25 Q. All right. Did you ever meet the commander

Page 9997

1 of the HVO civilian police in Vitez, a gentleman by the

2 name of Mirko Samija?

3 A. I apologise. I can't remember.

4 Q. No need to apologise, sir.

5 As you travelled down to Novi Travnik, sir,

6 it's true that there were numerous roadblocks in the

7 area of that town, with the local populous out in force

8 manning the barricade, so-to-speak; isn't that true?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In your notes, sir, you refer to a reporter

11 from the Guardian Newspaper by the name of Ed, and

12 there is a blank in your notes --

13 A. Ed Vulliamy.

14 Q. Ed Vulliamy. Thank you. Now, just a couple

15 of questions about the local personalities in Vitez.

16 First, Mr. Ivica Santic. You said in your statement

17 four-and-a-half years ago that he was a local Croat

18 commander. He was actually the President of the

19 civilian government, wasn't he?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. He was not a military commander at all?

22 A. He wasn't, no.

23 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Pero Skopljak is the

24 second gentleman you described. And you said that he

25 was described to you or introduced to you as the local

Page 9998

1 military police commander? Is that correct?

2 A. Internal affairs military police commander.

3 That sort of position, yes.

4 Q. Who introduced him to you in that capacity,

5 sir? Do you recall?

6 A. I can't remember.

7 Q. And of course you do not, therefore, know if,

8 in fact, this gentleman had any connection with the

9 military police at all?

10 A. I can't recall.

11 Q. All right. Now, let me make sure that I

12 understand the specific meetings that you described

13 with Mr. Kordic. As I understand, the first meeting,

14 the first time that you met him, as we've determined,

15 was on December the 2nd, 1992, at a social event, an

16 invitation to dinner given to him by Lieutenant Colonel

17 Stewart; correct?

18 A. Yes. Again, the dates I can't remember, but

19 I believe that to be the case, yes.

20 Q. The second meeting which you described was on

21 February the 5th, 1993, when you visited Mr. Kordic in

22 his office, correct, in Busovaca?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. This was in the middle of the town, not

25 outside of Busovaca; correct? At the PTT building?

Page 9999

1 A. At the PTT building, yes.

2 Q. The third specific meeting that you describe

3 was on February the 23rd, 1993, and that meeting was

4 occasioned by the theft of a Dutch armoured Mercedes

5 vehicle outside of Vitez; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And finally, the last specific meeting that

8 you referred to was sometime late in January of 1993,

9 and that was connected with a roadblock incident which

10 you forced your way through, according to your direct

11 testimony; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. All right. After the December the 2nd, 1992,

14 meeting, it's true, is it not, that Captain

15 Dundas-Whatley was the liaison officer charged with

16 obtaining Mr. Kordic's assistance in helping to obtain

17 the release of the Danish soldier who had been

18 kidnapped while he was out jogging; right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You yourself did not have any dealings with

21 Mr. Kordic on that occasion, did you?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Then, as I understand it, sir, you had a

24 leave, military leave, between December the 19th and

25 the 29th, 1992; is that consistent with your

Page 10000

1 recollection?

2 A. Yes, it is.

3 Q. And you returned from leave at the end of

4 1992; right?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. And by that time, you had only met Mr. Kordic

7 once, had you not?

8 A. I can't remember.

9 Q. All right. Turning to the incident that you

10 described, or the incidents, involving the HVO

11 reinforcements from Mostar under the command of a Major

12 Ljubic, did you actually speak to Major Ljubic

13 yourself?

14 A. He was present in a meeting I held with

15 Malbasic in Novi Travnik.

16 Q. But did you speak to him, sir?

17 A. I can't remember. I just remember him being

18 there in a meeting. He was not leading on the

19 discussions.

20 Q. How long was the meeting with Mr. Malbasic?

21 A. It was seven years ago. I can't remember.

22 Q. That's fine.

23 Only about ten of the 100-or-so soldiers that

24 you saw were wearing these black uniforms that you

25 describe; is that right?

Page 10001

1 A. Yeah, a minority.

2 Q. Well, about ten; correct?

3 A. Well, approximately ten per cent, yes.

4 Q. In your statement given to the Prosecutors

5 four and a half years ago, I think that's consistent

6 with what you said. You described that you saw, with

7 respect to Ljubic's soldiers, there were about 100 of

8 them; about ten of them wore black uniforms. And it

9 would be fair to say, sir, unless I'm much mistaken,

10 that your memory of events four and a half years ago

11 was quite a bit better than it is today; correct?

12 A. That's so.

13 Q. All right.

14 A. Correct.

15 Q. Now, Major Ljubic and the soldiers under his

16 command were only in the area for a short time, weren't

17 they?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, sir, you were in the area, in the

20 Vitez/Busovaca area, at the time that the ABiH attacked

21 the HVO in Busovaca on January the 24th and 25th, 1993,

22 weren't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you recall that immediately prior to that

25 attack, the ABiH forces had actually established a

Page 10002

1 checkpoint on the main supply route at Kacuni on

2 approximately January the 20th, 1993?

3 A. Well, I can remember them establishing a

4 checkpoint. The exact whereabouts and the exact date,

5 I can't recall.

6 Q. Do you recall that at that checkpoint, two

7 HVO soldiers were killed on January the 24th, and that

8 that provided the spark for the conflict?

9 A. I have a vague recollection of that, yes.

10 Q. Do you recall, sir, any -- do you have any

11 memory of the first significant massacre of civilians

12 during the civil war that occurred at the villages of

13 Dusina and Lasva on January the 26th, 1993?

14 A. I'm afraid I don't.

15 Q. All right.

16 MR. SAYERS: I wonder if the usher would show

17 you --

18 JUDGE MAY: Now, what are we going to do?

19 We've heard about these events, Mr. Sayers. We can't

20 constantly go over them time and time again. The

21 witness says he doesn't remember. Unless there's some

22 relevant point to do with this witness which is going

23 to assist us, I don't think we're assisted by constant

24 repetition. We have the date in mind; we have the

25 event in mind.

Page 10003

1 MR. SAYERS: I take your point,

2 Mr. President. Let me just one question in this

3 regard.

4 Q. Are you aware, sir, that the 3rd Corps in

5 Zenica, or anybody on the ABiH side, ever initiated any

6 investigation into this massacre of civilians?

7 A. I'm not aware of that, no.

8 Q. Turning very briefly, Major, to the meeting

9 that you had with Mr. Anto Sliskovic on the 28th of

10 January or the 29th of January, 1993, Mr. Kordic was

11 not actually at that meeting, was he?

12 A. On the majority of meetings I held with

13 Mr. Kordic, Mr. Sliskovic was present. On that

14 particular occasion, I can't remember.

15 Q. All right. This meeting, I take it, was in

16 the headquarters of DutchBat in Busovaca, the town of

17 Busovaca itself; correct?

18 A. Yeah, the only two places I had meetings were

19 either in DutchBat or the PTT building.

20 Q. Mr. Sliskovic never told you that he was

21 Mr. Kordic's so-called right-hand man, did he, sir?

22 A. No.

23 Q. In fact, you yourself had no personal

24 dealings whatsoever with Mr. Sliskovic, did you?

25 A. Only in that he was present at various

Page 10004

1 meetings with Mr. Kordic.

2 Q. Right. On page 5 of your statement of four

3 and a half years ago, you said, "I had no specific

4 dealings with him personally." And that's still your

5 testimony today, isn't it?

6 A. Absolutely.

7 Q. And the background of Mr. Sliskovic that

8 you've referred to, that was actually background

9 related to you by your interpreter; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It was her opinion or characterisation of his

12 background; correct?

13 A. Well, I think in her discussions with the

14 local population. I don't think it was her personal

15 opinions.

16 Q. Well, would it be fair to say that you really

17 do not know a great deal about Mr. Sliskovic's

18 functions?

19 A. I'm not an authority on Mr. Sliskovic, no.

20 Q. Well, four and a half years ago, it was your

21 view that he was not a military man at all; correct?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. Did you know that he was, in fact, the deputy

24 commander of the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade, first

25 under Niko Jozinovic, and secondly, in February, when

Page 10005

1 the command changed, under commander Dusko Grubesic?

2 A. I just read it in the insum about a quarter

3 of an hour ago, yeah.

4 Q. And that's accurate information, as far as

5 you're aware, isn't it?

6 A. I have no reason to doubt it.

7 Q. You have no reason to disagree with the

8 milinfosums -- I can show them if you wish. I don't

9 think we need to take up time with that, though, but

10 would it be fair to say that those milinfosums

11 represent the assessment of the BritBat

12 information-gathering resources regarding the command

13 structure in the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade,

14 Mr. Jozinovic being the commander in January of 1993,

15 Mr. Grubesic being the commander in February of 1993,

16 and Mr. Sliskovic being the deputy commander of the

17 brigade under both commanders?

18 A. The insums would reflect the most accurate

19 information that the intelligence was doing at the

20 time.

21 Q. Very well.

22 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, if I could just

23 refer the Court's attention to Exhibits D61/1, D109/1,

24 and D49/1, I think they are self-explanatory.

25 Q. Let me turn to a meeting that occurred on

Page 10006

1 January 30th, Major Forgrave. This meeting involved

2 negotiations for a ceasefire that were actually held at

3 the Hotel Vitez on that day, January the 30th; isn't

4 that correct?

5 A. I have no recollection of that date or

6 meeting.

7 Q. Do you recall attending a meeting chaired by

8 your commanding officer, Lieutenant Colonel Stewart, at

9 which Mr. Jeremy Fleming, the local head of the

10 European Community Monitoring Mission, was present

11 along with Jorge de la Mota from the UNHCR, Iris

12 Wittwer from the Red Cross, and the two military

13 commanders, representatives, Franjo Nakic for the HVO

14 and Colonel Dzemal Merdan for the ABiH?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. All right. And do you recall, sir, that a

17 ceasefire agreement was actually worked out at that

18 meeting and signed by all of the people that I've just

19 identified?

20 A. You're referring to the meeting that was

21 conducted in Busovaca?

22 Q. In Nova Bila, in Vitez.

23 A. I can't be 100 per cent accurate, because I

24 can't remember.

25 Q. That's fine. But you do recall attending --

Page 10007

1 A. I remember having a meeting with Mr. Fleming,

2 Jorge, and Colonel Stewart, and Mr. Nakic, and General

3 Merdan. I was under the assumption it was Busovaca.

4 Q. Suffice it to say that at this long remove of

5 time, you don't have a clear recollection of the

6 locale, but you have a clear recollection of the

7 meeting?

8 A. I remember the meeting, yes.

9 Q. All right. Let's turn to the late January

10 roadblock incident that you covered in your direct

11 examination. You were travelling along the road with

12 Captain Dundas-Whatley; correct?

13 A. That's correct, yes.

14 Q. And I believe that you were escorting

15 Brigadier Andrew Cumming?

16 A. That's right, yes.

17 Q. Do you recall the names of the HVO soldiers

18 who related to you the fact that passage had been

19 denied, freedom of passage had been denied?

20 A. I don't remember even asking for their

21 names.

22 Q. Did you, yourself, speak directly to them?

23 A. Either Captain Dundas-Whatley or myself,

24 through our interpreter, spoke directly to them to try

25 and gain passage through the roadblock.

Page 10008

1 Q. But you do not recall, yourself, whether you

2 spoke through your interpreter or whether your

3 coliaison officer, Captain Dundas-Whatley, spoke to

4 them?

5 A. No, I can't remember exactly who it was.

6 Q. The upshot of this incident was that you just

7 drove straight through the roadblock, ignoring it, and

8 went to Busovaca to see Mr. Kordic in his office;

9 correct?

10 A. Prior to that, the two HVO soldiers had said

11 that Colonel Kordic ordered that the roadblock be put

12 in place. That was strange because we hadn't been

13 restricted in our freedom of movement, and I had a

14 reasonably good relationship with Mr. Kordic at the

15 time.

16 Q. Are you sure that the soldier said "Colonel

17 Kordic," or is it possible that they said "Colonel

18 Blaskic," sir?

19 A. No, no, no. They said "Colonel Kordic."

20 Q. Is this incident recorded in any milinfosum

21 or personal note that you made contemporaneously?

22 A. I wasn't keeping any notes.

23 Q. Is it recorded in any milinfosum that you

24 have seen, sir?

25 A. I don't know. I haven't seen any milinfosum

Page 10009

1 for seven years.

2 Q. All right. So you went to see Mr. Kordic and

3 you've described to the Court that he made a telephone

4 call; correct?

5 A. I believe, yes. Yes, he did make a telephone

6 call, yes.

7 Q. Was that in your presence?

8 A. Yes, it was, yes.

9 Q. Who did Mr. Kordic called?

10 A. I don't know. I don't speak Serbo-Croat.

11 Q. Would it be fair to say that Mr. Kordic was

12 somewhat embarrassed that UNPROFOR forces, BritBat

13 specifically, had been impeded in their freedom of

14 passage?

15 A. That's correct. Yes.

16 Q. It would also be fair to say that this would

17 be a bit of a political embarrassment for him; correct?

18 A. Correct, yes.

19 Q. So you went to him to see if you could get

20 him to help, and did he help?

21 A. I mean, that was fairly consistent with his

22 approach to BritBat.

23 Q. Major, did you ever meet any of the civilian

24 politicians who ran the civilian or municipal

25 government of the town of Busovaca?

Page 10010

1 A. I can't recall, I'm afraid.

2 Q. According to milinfosum number 43 dated

3 December 14, 1993, and I can show it to you if you

4 want, the Busovaca brigade commander is identified as

5 Zoran Maric. Did you ever meet Mr. Maric?

6 A. I may well have done. The name escapes me.

7 Q. If I suggest to you that Mr. Maric was

8 actually the President of the civilian HVO municipal

9 government in Busovaca, would that jog your memory at

10 all?

11 A. Sorry.

12 Q. Just too far back. All right.

13 Following the January the 30th, 1993

14 ceasefire, a body called the Busovaca Joint Commission

15 was set up. Have you ever heard of that body, sir?

16 A. Yes. I have a recollection of that.

17 Q. The head of this commission was

18 Lieutenant-Colonel Stewart and Jeremy Fleming, correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. Isn't it true that Mr. Kordic took absolutely

21 no part in any of the negotiations that led to the

22 establishment of this joint body?

23 A. I can't recall Mr. Kordic being involved in

24 this joint body.

25 Q. Major, did you ever attend any of the

Page 10011

1 meetings of this commission?

2 A. Yes, I did. Again, the details are rather

3 elusive.

4 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Kordic in any of those

5 meetings?

6 A. Again, I can't confirm or deny whether I saw

7 Mr. Kordic at any of those meetings.

8 Q. It would be fair to say, would it not, that

9 representatives of the warring force, the military

10 components of those warring forces, were represented on

11 the commission and that they participated in the daily

12 meetings with a view, at least on the part of the ECMM

13 and your commanding officer, to try to diffuse tensions

14 and bring about a more cooperative working

15 relationship?

16 A. That would seem to me to be the case. It was

17 predominantly a military problem, so it involved

18 military personnel.

19 Q. Were you present, sir, in Vitez at the

20 BritBat compound on February the 1st of 1993, when high

21 level ceasefire talks were held at that base involving

22 General Hadzihasanovic, Colonel Blaskic, and the

23 UNPROFOR commanding officer Lieutenant-General Philippe

24 Morillon?

25 A. I can recall the actual meeting. I can't

Page 10012

1 remember who actually attended or not.

2 Q. All right. Now, turning to the February the

3 5th, 1993 meeting about which you have testified. I

4 take it, sir, that this meeting occurred in

5 Mr. Kordic's office or in a room in the PTT building in

6 Busovaca?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. Now, did you know that this office was his

9 office, as opposed to someone else's; the HVO military

10 commanders, for example?

11 A. I merely assumed it was his office, because I

12 always met him there.

13 Q. Right. You never actually asked him if it

14 was his office, though, did you?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. Was this also the headquarters of

17 the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski brigade in Busovaca, sir, if

18 you know?

19 A. I can't recall, I'm afraid.

20 Q. The next item of chronological significance

21 is on February the 13th, 1993, there were top-level

22 negotiations held at Kakanj. Were you present at those

23 negotiations, sir, if you can remember?

24 A. I can't remember.

25 Q. Let me just see if I can jog your memory.

Page 10013

1 The commanding officer of all of the ABiH armed forces,

2 General Sefer Halilovic was there, along with the chief

3 of the general staff of the HVO, Brigadier Milivoj

4 Petkovic, and also present was Lieutenant-General

5 Philippe Morillon. Do you have any recollection of

6 that?

7 A. [No audible response]

8 Q. Very well. Now, sir, the last meeting about

9 which you testified was February the 23rd, 1993, the

10 last meeting involving Mr. Kordic that is. And your

11 testimony, I believe, was that a Dutch vehicle had been

12 apprehended by two policemen wearing HVO police

13 uniforms; is that correct?

14 A. That was reported by the Dutch military

15 personnel, yes.

16 Q. All right. You did not, obviously, witness

17 the hijacking yourself, did you?

18 A. No. It was described to me.

19 Q. You yourself do not know whether these two

20 perpetrators were, in fact, wearing police uniforms or

21 not, do you?

22 A. No. I have no reason to disbelieve the Dutch

23 military personnel.

24 Q. I wonder if the usher would show you Exhibit

25 D114/1. This is a copy, sir, of milinfosum number 116

Page 10014

1 from your regiment dated the 23rd of February, 1993.

2 If you would just turn to the second page. There is a

3 description of the perpetrators and the clothing that

4 they were wearing. Male number one was wearing a

5 camouflaged combat jacket with an HVO badge and blue

6 jeans. And male number two was wearing a civilian top

7 with combat trousers. Neither of those forms of attire

8 are military police attire, are they, Major, as far as

9 you can recall?

10 A. The only thing I can remember that would add

11 to this milinfosum was certainly one of them was --

12 they flagged down the vehicle with an illuminated

13 police baton. I think that's what gave the impression

14 that they were probably military police.

15 Q. The milinfosum also reports that the CO of

16 1 Cheshire and the Vitez-Travnik LO visited the HVO

17 Vitez to request the return of the vehicle and its

18 contents. Was that you, sir?

19 A. Yes, I think it was. Yes. I am fairly

20 certain it was.

21 Q. Isn't it true that you actually went along

22 with Colonel Stewart or Lieutenant-Colonel Stewart to

23 the headquarters of the 4th Battalion of the military

24 police of the HVO in the Hotel Vitez?

25 A. Again, that would be the logical thing to

Page 10015

1 have done, yes.

2 Q. Once again, sir, the commander of the

3 military police to whom you spoke was actually

4 Mr. Pasko Ljubicic, wasn't it?

5 A. I've said before I don't recognise the name

6 Ljubicic.

7 Q. All right. Let me see if I can jog your

8 memory, sir, with one document.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D128/1.

10 MR. SAYERS: I do apologise for the quality

11 of this copy, but it's the best we have.

12 Q. I only have a question, sir, with respect to

13 the first page and the first few entries. First of

14 all, do you recognise this as what is known as an orbat

15 or an order of battle?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And it appears to be --

18 A. Can I just add? It's a fairly incomplete

19 orbat.

20 Q. According to this orbat, sir, and it appears

21 to be dated the 26th or the 25th of February 1993, the

22 police commander was Pasko Ljubicic. Do you see that?

23 A. Sorry, can you just give me the subparagraph,

24 please.

25 Q. Yes. It's about two inches down from the top

Page 10016

1 of the page, sir.

2 A. Ljubicic. Yes, I got you.

3 Q. Does that jog your memory?

4 A. I'm afraid it doesn't. I am almost certain I

5 met the police chief in Vitez, but the name escapes

6 me.

7 Q. Just a few final questions in connection with

8 Mr. Kordic's position, sir. You actually do not know

9 what his position was within the hierarchy of the local

10 government, do you?

11 A. Local government, no.

12 Q. Or within the government of the Bosnian

13 Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina generally? You do not

14 know what position he held in that government either,

15 do you?

16 A. I believe him to be the deputy of the HDZ.

17 Q. Do you know how many vice-presidents of that

18 party there were, sir, or would it be fair to say that

19 at this large remove of time you don't remember or you

20 never really knew?

21 A. It was my understanding during my six months

22 that he was the only deputy.

23 Q. You were unaware, then, I take it, of the

24 fact that there were actually five vice-presidents of

25 the HDZ party in Bosnia-Herzegovina generally, and that

Page 10017

1 Mr. Kordic was just one of those five?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Do you know who the President of the party

4 was?

5 A. My memory serves me correctly, it was -- was

6 it Mate Boban?

7 Q. Right. Do you know who the supreme commander

8 of all the HVO forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina were, sir?

9 JUDGE MAY: If you can't remember --

10 A. I can't remember.

11 MR. SAYERS: That's perfectly fine, Major.

12 Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, that you

13 yourself never heard Mr. Kordic ever utter any racially

14 intolerant remarks?

15 A. No, that's incorrect.

16 Q. When did you hear him utter a racially

17 intolerant remark, sir?

18 A. The incident I talked about earlier, when he

19 talked about the ethnic origin of my interpreter,

20 Dobrila, in which he said that he could deal with

21 Dobrila because she was a Serb, and so therefore she

22 would be neutral. The implication within that

23 particular statement was that he wouldn't deal with a

24 Muslim interpreter.

25 Q. That was an implication that you drew, I take

Page 10018

1 it, or an inference that you drew?

2 A. It was a fairly obvious implication I drew,

3 yes.

4 Q. Have you ever seen copies of speeches that

5 were included as attachments to military information

6 summaries, speeches made by Mr. Kordic, sir?

7 A. I can't recall seeing any transcripts of

8 speeches. I remember attending one of his speeches in

9 Busovaca.

10 Q. All right. Let me just show you the next and

11 final document that I would like to have you examine.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Document D129/1.


14 Q. Attached to this milinfosum, sir, is a

15 transcript of an interview apparently conducted with

16 Mr. Kordic for the Usora magazine on the 5th of

17 November of that year.

18 JUDGE MAY: Where is this?

19 MR. SAYERS: Attached as page 4 of 5, Your

20 Honour, and 5 of 5.

21 JUDGE MAY: We've only got three pages here.

22 Mr. Sayers, it may be that you can produce this through

23 another witness. This particular -- unless this is the

24 speech in Busovaca, the witness says he doesn't

25 remember any speeches.

Page 10019

1 MR. SAYERS: I am sort of hobbled here, Your

2 Honour, because pages 4 and 5 have been omitted.

3 Q. But the speech that you attended, sir, what

4 do you remember about it, if anything?

5 A. I can't remember the content.

6 Q. It was pretty much of sort of a political

7 speech, was it not, as far as you can remember?

8 A. I would just like to reiterate. I can't

9 remember the contents, so I can't answer the question

10 accurately.

11 MR. SAYERS: I think that actually concludes

12 my questions, Major. Thank you very much indeed, and

13 thank you, Mr. President.

14 Cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

15 JUDGE MAY: You have to put the earphones

16 on. Yes, Mr. Mikulicic.


18 Q. Thank you, Your Honours.

19 Good afternoon, Major Forgrave, my name is

20 Goran Mikulicic and my colleague, Mr. Kovacic and I

21 represent Mario Cerkez in this case.

22 I shall ask you a few questions and I should

23 like to ask you to answer them to the best of your

24 recollection.

25 Major, you are a professional soldier and you

Page 10020

1 were posted to Central Bosnia with a well and clearly

2 defined military task before you; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I assume that your military task was defined

5 for you by your superior, your commander. Would that

6 be correct, sir?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And the definition of your task, of your

9 mission in central form, were these orders given you in

10 writing or verbally?

11 A. They were normally delivered orally.

12 Q. If I understood you properly, Major, your

13 area of responsibility was defined in geographical

14 terms as the area from Turbe to Travnik, north of Guca

15 Gora in the north, and then on to Novi Travnik and then

16 Vitez in the east. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes. And as far down as Busovaca.

18 Q. If I understand you properly, your

19 responsibility was defined both in terms of the

20 substance or the contents and in terms of the

21 territory? Would that be correct, sir?

22 A. Sorry. Please, could you clarify the -- in

23 terms of the substance? Are you merely saying it was

24 defined territorially?

25 Q. I do apologise. Perhaps I was wrong in not

Page 10021

1 wording my question clearly. What I should like to

2 know is whether it is correct to say that your military

3 mission in Central Bosnia was defined by the

4 geographical area that you were assigned to and the

5 type of activity you were to be engaged in, that is a

6 liaison officer on a humanitarian mission?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. In other words, Major, in military terms, if

9 I understand it properly, the area of operation of

10 responsibility of a military officer needs to be

11 defined very clearly, both as to what he has to do and

12 the size of the territory that he has to cover? Would

13 that be correct, sir?

14 A. That would be a correct assumption, yes.

15 Q. Major Forgrave, it is not in dispute that at

16 a time when you were in Central Bosnia, Colonel Blaskic

17 was the highest ranking officer in the area. Is that

18 right?

19 A. Yes. Purely military officer, yes.

20 Q. So it is neither in dispute that Colonel

21 Blaskic defined the duties and responsibilities of the

22 officers subordinate to him?

23 A. Again, I can only assume that being the

24 senior military commander, he defined the duties and

25 responsibilities.

Page 10022

1 Q. Major Forgrave, you said that according to

2 you, my client, Mr. Cerkez, was a local commander in

3 Vitez. Is that so?

4 A. Initially, yes, and then I knew him as a

5 commander in Novi Travnik.

6 Q. Could you perhaps be more precise and define

7 closer the time that he was in Vitez and the time he

8 was in Novi Travnik? Do you remember that?

9 A. I'm afraid not.

10 Q. Could you perhaps remember, if I said that

11 Mr. Cerkez was in Novi Travnik between December 1992 to

12 March 1993? Would that jog your memory a little?

13 A. I can't be precise on the dates. I'm sorry.

14 Q. Right. I will not bother you with that any

15 more.

16 But could you tell us, Major Forgrave,

17 please, did you ever see or hear a military order

18 issued by Colonel Blaskic defining Mr. Cerkez's area of

19 responsibility and Mr. Cerkez's military commander?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Major, when you said that Mario Cerkez was

22 local commander in Vitez -- now, I should like to ask

23 you to define that word more precisely. So my question

24 is: When you say Vitez local commander, do you mean

25 the town of Vitez, the town of Vitez and its immediate

Page 10023

1 surroundings, or the municipality of Vitez? Could you

2 please clarify it for us?

3 A. I don't know the geographical boundaries of

4 his area of responsibility.

5 Q. Does that mean, Major, that you wouldn't be

6 able to show us Mr. Cerkez's area of responsibility on

7 the map of the area?

8 A. No, I don't.

9 Q. Major Forgrave, during your stay in Vitez,

10 did you ever meet a person called Marijan Skopljak?

11 A. Again, my memory fails me.

12 Q. Would you remember, Major, which military

13 units operated in the Vitez territory? I mean both the

14 town and the area around it, a broader area, and I mean

15 HVO units.

16 A. Not off the top of my head, no.

17 Q. Let me remind you, Major, you spoke about 100

18 men of a unit which arrived in the Vitez/Novi Travnik

19 area from the southern part of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or

20 rather from Herzegovina, and to be even more precise,

21 from the area around Mostar. You also said that the

22 unit was commanded by one Major Ljubic. Major, are you

23 positive that that was the name of the man who

24 commanded that unit?

25 A. This is a name I gave in my statement in

Page 10024

1 1995. Again, there was four years that separated my

2 statement and the start of my tour -- three years. I

3 could have been mistaken, but I'm fairly sure his name

4 was Ljubic.

5 Q. But if I gave you the name of Ljuboric, does

6 that ring a bell as being the name of the commander of

7 the unit? Not Ljubic, but Ljuboric?

8 A. Again, I remember the name as Ljubic rather

9 than Ljuboric.

10 Q. Very well. Major, you also told us that you

11 used to see men of the unit and its commander,

12 regardless of what his name was, both in Vitez and Novi

13 Travnik; is that correct?

14 A. Yes, I saw Major Ljubic, if that's what his

15 name was, in Vitez and Novi Travnik, and also some of

16 his soldiers on a checkpoint outside Vitez.

17 Q. At that time, the commander of the local HVO

18 unit in Novi Travnik was Borivoje Malbasic, whom we

19 mentioned before, but you do recall him, don't you?

20 A. Yes, I do.

21 Q. According to your recollection and

22 information you had at your disposal at the time, could

23 you tell us if Mr. Malbasic was the operative commander

24 superior of Major Ljubic and his units at the time they

25 were in the Novi Travnik area?

Page 10025

1 A. My impression was that Mr. Ljubic and his

2 Mostar contingent were a surge unit, as I said, to

3 alter the balance of power within the local area.

4 Mr. Malbasic was a moderate Croat commander, whereas

5 Major Ljubic was, in my opinion, a hardline extremist.

6 Q. In your conversation with court

7 investigators, Major, you said -- and I simply want to

8 ask you if you will still go by that -- that Ljubic's

9 units were not under Malbasic's control. Is that what

10 you still believe to be the case?

11 A. Yes. I don't believe they were under his

12 control. It was, I think, fairly evident from the

13 meeting that was in Novi Travnik that they were

14 controlled at a higher level.

15 Q. Am I then right to assume that those same

16 units, when they were in the territory of Vitez, were

17 not under the control of this local commander,

18 Mr. Cerkez?

19 A. I would agree with you on that.

20 Q. Would you know, Major, that the mentioned

21 Borivoje Malbasic asked, in writing, from Colonel

22 Blaskic, to have those units removed from the area

23 because they were causing chaos? Did you ever hear

24 anything about that?

25 A. I seem to remember that Mr. Malbasic didn't

Page 10026

1 care for their presence in Novi Travnik, as they were

2 troublemakers, in his opinion.

3 Q. Very well. We can move on to another topic.

4 You mentioned that practically on the next

5 day after your arrival in Central Bosnia, together with

6 Mr. Cerkez and Mr. Sefkija Dzidic, you went out into

7 the field to remove the checkpoints obstructing the

8 traffic in the area; do you remember that?

9 A. Yes, traffic and all movement of civilians

10 within the town.

11 Q. And do you remember, perhaps, where were

12 those roadblocks, control points, which you visited on

13 that occasion together with Mr. Cerkez and Mr. Dzidic?

14 A. I can't remember the exact location. There

15 were a number of checkpoints which we visited, and

16 through the involvement of Mr. Cerkez and Mr. Sefkija,

17 those were gradually removed and the tension was

18 reduced.

19 Q. Major, did you ever meet the commander of the

20 325th Brigade of the BH army, which was quartered in

21 the area of Vitez?

22 A. Could you remind me of his name, please?

23 Q. The commander of the brigade was Esad

24 Dzananovic.

25 A. I may well have met him. I can't remember.

Page 10027

1 Q. But am I right in saying that in the area,

2 you therefore kept in touch with Mr. Dzidic, rather

3 than the commander of the 325th Brigade, with regard to

4 the Bosnian and Herzegovinian army, the ABiH?

5 A. We established a good working relationship

6 with Mr. Cerkez and Mr. Sefkija early on, and a number

7 of problems were resolved. We therefore kept that line

8 of communication open.

9 Q. Am I right in concluding, Major, when I say

10 that you saw Mr. Cerkez and Mr. Sefkija Dzidic as

11 representatives of the local communities of Croats and

12 Muslims in the area, in the military sense?

13 A. That was certainly the case early on, yes.

14 Q. I will now ask you, Major, to describe the

15 relationship between Mr. Sefkija Dzidic and Mr. Mario

16 Cerkez, since you spent some time with them, so I

17 assume you gained some impression of their mutual

18 relationship.

19 A. I thought they had a good working

20 relationship, and it was unfortunate they had to

21 operate on both sides of the fence.

22 Q. You mentioned in your previous testimony a

23 powerful artillery weapon which was positioned in the

24 vicinity of your headquarters and which you

25 occasionally heard firing. If I understood you

Page 10028

1 properly, you were told that this weapon, which was

2 popularly known as Nora, or Debela Berta, was under HVO

3 command; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Is it correct that it was explained to you

6 that it was firing at the nearby mountain of Vlasic, at

7 positions held by the Bosnian Serbs?

8 A. Yes, that was always the explanation that was

9 given.

10 Q. Major, do you know who was responsible for

11 commanding this powerful artillery weapon?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Allow me to remind you that when talking

14 about this to the Tribunal's investigators, you said

15 that the command group from Novi Travnik had told you

16 that this weapon was being used against the Bosnian

17 Serbs on Vlasic. Do you still think that this is the

18 source of your information?

19 A. I remember going to a meeting in HVO

20 headquarters in Novi Travnik on a Sunday morning. The

21 reason for this meeting was to dampen some rumours that

22 were circulating about BritBat. The rumours consisted

23 of the fact that BritBat were going to take away the

24 firing pins from their weapons to stop them involving

25 themselves in any more violence. And I discussed the

Page 10029

1 subject of Nora with them that day.

2 Q. Therefore, Major, we agree that there was a

3 certain command group, as you say, from Novi Travnik,

4 in charge of this weapon, but you do not know to whom

5 that group was actually responsible and under whose

6 command it was; am I correct?

7 A. I think it's supposition to suggest that the

8 Novi Travnik HVO headquarters were in charge of this

9 weapon. I simply don't know who was in charge of this

10 weapon.

11 Q. Very well. Major, do you know that in that

12 part of the front which was, one may say, in your

13 sphere of competence -- and I am referring to the

14 mountain of Vlasic, overlooking Turbe -- that this part

15 of the front line was also held by HVO units from Vitez

16 and Novi Travnik?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. Major, you are a professional soldier; I will

19 ask you one question about the calibre of this weapon.

20 Do you know the highest-calibre weapon that is used at

21 brigade level, usually?

22 A. I don't have the detailed knowledge of what

23 the highest-calibre weapon would be used in a brigade

24 in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I can tell you what's the

25 highest-calibre weapon that's used in a brigade in a

Page 10030

1 British unit.

2 Q. Could you please tell us, for purposes of

3 comparison, so that we may learn something about this?

4 A. It would be a 152-millimetre artillery

5 piece. That would be the highest calibre -- sorry,

6 155.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 Major, just a few brief questions. You said

9 that when you arrived in Vitez, you noticed Croatian

10 flags flying; is that true?

11 A. I remember one flying outside the Hotel

12 Vitez.

13 Q. Major, are you able, or were you then able,

14 to differentiate between the flag used in Central

15 Bosnia by members of the local Croatian population in

16 comparison to the official flag of the Republic of

17 Croatia? Do you remember that these two flags differed

18 in details?

19 A. Again, I can remember they do differ. I

20 would have to be shown the two flags to offer an

21 opinion.

22 Q. Very well. Just a few more questions about

23 the incident with the stolen armoured vehicle of the

24 Dutch battalion, the Mercedes. You mentioned that it

25 was your understanding that after its theft, this

Page 10031

1 vehicle came into the possession of the HVO police

2 commander in Novi Travnik; is that correct?

3 A. That was my understanding, yes.

4 Q. Can you recall today the name of that person?

5 A. No, I don't. All I can remember is that he

6 was believed to have Mafia connections.

7 Q. Did you ever see that man personally,

8 regardless of the fact that you do not remember his

9 name?

10 A. I'm fairly sure I would have met him on my

11 visits to HVO headquarters in Travnik, but I can't

12 remember the precise meeting.

13 Q. Thank you, Major. I have finished my

14 examination.

15 JUDGE MAY: Just help us with this, if you

16 would. You were asked about an investigation which you

17 made into the execution of two mercenaries, apparently

18 whose names were Arnold and Skinner. What you weren't

19 asked, and what I would like to know, is on which side

20 they were mercenaries, if you know, Major?

21 A. Those particular two individuals were working

22 for the ABiH. I must emphasise that it wasn't in the

23 true dogs of war fashion. They were merely acting as

24 medical orderlies and assisting in the training of ABiH

25 units in Travnik.

Page 10032

1 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

2 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, I have actually

3 located the errant two pages from the milinfosum number

4 129/1, and with the Court's permission I would just

5 like to have this marked as 129/1A, for completeness

6 purposes.

7 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Let that be done.

8 Yes, Mr. Scott.

9 MR. SCOTT: Briefly, Your Honour. I can

10 assure the Court we will be finished before the lunch

11 recess.

12 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:

13 Q. If we could just pick up at the last couple

14 of points, Major. There has been discussion in

15 connection with the stolen Dutch vehicle. There has

16 been discussions of both the police officers in

17 Travnik, I believe, and the police officers in Novi

18 Travnik. Can you help us, please, clarify what was

19 your information as to who, if any, of the HVO police

20 officers this vehicle had come into the possession of?

21 Was it in Travnik or in Novi Travnik?

22 A. It was in Travnik. The reason why I say that

23 is because the HVO police commander was known to

24 Dobrila, my interpreter.

25 Q. All right. And the police headquarters that

Page 10033

1 you went to, were you talking in Travnik the military

2 police or civilian police?

3 A. We went to the police headquarters in Vitez,

4 and I can't remember which it was, the military or the

5 civilian.

6 Q. Well, perhaps again there is some -- I don't

7 think I can scroll back up. Forgive me, Major, but I

8 think the question of the Defence counsel a few moments

9 ago was in reference to meeting a police officer in --

10 excuse me just a moment, please. In Novi Travnik.

11 Whether the vehicle came into the possession of the HVO

12 police commander in Novi Travnik. So again let me ask

13 you. Did you understand it was in Travnik or in Novi

14 Travnik?

15 A. My understanding is it was Travnik.

16 Q. Did you meet with any police officers in

17 connection with this incident -- let me just see if we

18 can finish up this way -- in either Travnik or Novi

19 Travnik about the Dutch vehicle?

20 A. I can't remember. I think I may have made

21 inquiries about the missing vehicle, but we actually

22 went to the Vitez police station when I went with

23 Colonel Stewart.

24 Q. All right. The two mercenaries that were

25 killed, just again, were they wearing any type of

Page 10034

1 uniform to your knowledge when they were killed?

2 A. I can't remember about the uniforms because

3 when I collected the bodies they were naked.

4 Q. Your information is they were some sort of

5 medical assistants?

6 A. Those two were not professional soldiers.

7 One may have been in the territorial army, although

8 that's subject to some confusion. They were certainly

9 not front-line soldiers.

10 Q. All right. Drawing on your experience as a

11 professional military officer, sir, is it fair to say

12 that before a significant command decision is made

13 there would be some discussion and consultation among

14 the command, the group, or the command staff?

15 A. I think it would largely depend on the

16 commander, the personality, but as a rule I would say

17 yes.

18 Q. You were shown an order, Defence Exhibit

19 D91/1, an order by General -- well, then Colonel

20 Blaskic, excuse me, dated the 16th of January 1993. Do

21 you have any way of knowing, sir, any conversations or

22 communications between Colonel Blaskic and Colonel

23 Kordic prior to that order being issued?

24 A. No, I don't.

25 Q. Finally, are you aware of any HVO brigade

Page 10035

1 commander for the municipality of Vitez other than

2 Mario Cerkez during your tour?

3 A. No, I am not

4 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 A. Can I just say one other thing on the subject

6 of mercenaries. I met quite a few mercenaries when I

7 was out there, and they were represented on both

8 sides. I met one of the mercenaries in Busovaca who

9 was working for the HVO, another mercenary who was

10 ex-intelligence corps, was working for the ABiH and

11 came to our camp in Vitez. There was another mercenary

12 operating in Vitez with the union jack on his

13 four-by-four vehicle again who was working for the

14 HVO. So they worked on both sides.

15 JUDGE MAY: Thank you, Major that concludes

16 your evidence. You are released. Thank you for coming

17 to the International Tribunal to give evidence.

18 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

19 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to go.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE MAY: I take it, the next witness is

22 here and ready. We've got the summary. I take it we

23 should be able to finish him this afternoon and

24 tomorrow morning, making an early start and finishing,

25 I hope, reasonably early, by about midday. Seems to be

Page 10036

1 agreed on all sides. Very well. Half past 2.00.

2 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.55 p.m.