1 Tuesday, 23rd November, 1999
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario
7 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.
9 MR. NICE: Two short administrative matters.
10 First, as I think the Chamber knows, we would be
11 grateful for a short ex parte hearing. I understand
12 the practical difficulties about setting one up at the
13 beginning of the session.
14 Knowing a little about what's at stake, there
15 may be some urgency or there may be some need to deal
16 with it as swiftly as possible; possibly at the end of
17 the morning session. If we were to have some time,
18 might that be possible?
19 JUDGE MAY: Well, the alternative is 9.15
20 tomorrow morning.
21 MR. NICE: My concern is more what may follow
22 in relation to the work of other parts of the
23 institution, but if the Chamber is aware of the subject
24 matter in general terms, and is convinced that 9.15
25 tomorrow morning will be time enough to deal with it,
1 then 9.15 tomorrow morning.
2 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Nice, we have only the
3 vaguest idea, because we have had a very general
4 message. Is there any reason it has to be dealt with
5 today as opposed to 9.15 tomorrow morning?
6 MR. NICE: Providing other parts of the
7 institution are able to respond in time, 9.15 tomorrow
8 should be all right.
9 JUDGE MAY: I'm afraid that is so elliptical
10 I don't know what that refers to.
11 MR. NICE: That's a problem, isn't it? I
12 can't tell you.
13 JUDGE MAY: Well, I leave it to your
14 judgement. If you urge us to have the hearing today,
15 we will do it today, provided we get on with the
17 MR. NICE: I will review it at the break and
18 let you know informally whether it's necessary.
19 The second small administrative matter
20 relates to Brigadier Duncan, who is coming back this
21 week. He provided his diary, and the Chamber will
22 remember the concerns I expressed at the end of the
23 time when he gave his evidence. But he has provided
24 the extracts from his diary entirely voluntarily,
25 blanked out, and so that's not a problem, and I think
1 they've been served already. If not, they -- I think
2 they have been.
3 But before Mr. Sayers deals with that, in the
4 letter by which they've been provided, he also asks
5 that he may be provided with some milinfosums for
6 particular dates. Well, now, I haven't checked whether
7 they have already been exhibited so that they are in a
8 sense public documents, and there's probably no reason
9 why he shouldn't have them; they are documents of
10 record to which he would have made a contribution. But
11 as he is partway through giving his evidence, I checked
12 that nobody will object to his having access, and if
13 so, we will provide him copies of milinfosums for the
14 9th, 12th, 13th, and 19th of May, the 11th of June,
15 27th of September, and 6th of November.
16 MR. SAYERS: As Mr. Nice says, Mr. President,
17 we have received some small extracts from Brigadier
18 Duncan's diary. The one concern that I have with
19 respect to the blacking-out of entries is that there
20 are entries that concern events about which the
21 brigadier testified, and you have, for example, a
22 sentence about the event, a sentence about the event
23 one sentence later, and then an intervening sentence
24 just blacked out, and we don't have any way of
25 verifying that the item that was blacked out is of a
1 purely personal nature. Of course, if the Prosecution
2 represents that it is, then we will take the
3 Prosecution at its word; but it seems odd to have a
4 sentence, that appears to be part of a discrete
5 discussion of an event, blacked out without really any
6 explanation for that given to us.
7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, it was really as a
8 concession to you that that order was made. It's been
9 done voluntarily by the witness, and the fact is that
10 this is his private diary. Now, our ruling before has
11 been that these diaries have to be protected because of
12 the privacy of the individual, and he was given by the
13 Court the power to determine what should be disclosed
14 and what not. And in my view -- I haven't discussed
15 it, of course, but in my view, you've got what you're
16 entitled to.
17 MR. SAYERS: We're obviously in the Trial
18 Chamber's hands in that regard, and it turns out that
19 the parts of the -- actually there are two sets of
20 documents, extracts of which we were given, and they
21 are both extremely helpful, and we are very grateful
22 for the Court's indulgence in that regard, Your
24 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
25 MR. SAYERS: With respect to the request to
1 consult the milinfosums, my reaction is that I don't
2 see why not.
3 JUDGE MAY: No.
4 MR. SAYERS: They form part of the pertinent
5 materials in this case, and I think the brigadier is
6 perfectly entitled to take a look at them if he wishes.
7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I mean, if he had asked in
8 the middle of the trial, while giving his evidence, if
9 he could look at a milinfosum to refresh his memory,
10 then presumably it would have been allowed, so I can
11 see no objection to that.
12 MR. SAYERS: We are completely in agreement,
13 Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you.
15 MR. NICE: I'll act accordingly, and I'll
16 raise the general concerns of the Ministry of Defence
17 about diaries later, when the witness comes back, so as
18 not to interrupt the flow of today's evidence.
19 I gather there is an objection being taken in
20 relation to today's witness, and I'll let Mr. Scott
21 deal with that in due course.
22 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, just for the
23 record, we are sharing the view of the Kordic Defence
24 in the raised matter.
25 JUDGE MAY: This is about the next witness?
1 MR. KOVACIC: Right -- no, I'm sorry, there's
2 a misunderstanding. Related to the issue of the Duncan
3 diary and milinfosums.
4 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you.
5 MR. KOVACIC: And, Your Honour, if I may --
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
7 MR. KOVACIC: -- if that is an appropriate
8 moment -- and let me continue in the Croatian language,
9 because it may be a little bit more difficult.
15 JUDGE MAY: Is it a matter that you want to
16 raise about the next witness?
17 MR. KOVACIC: Yes.
18 JUDGE MAY: We better go into private session
20 [Private session]
13 pages 10183-10192 redacted – closed session
1 [Open session]
2 MR. SCOTT:
3 Q. Witness U, is it correct that in
4 approximately the latter part of 1992, the first part
5 of 1993, some several hundred people lived in what
6 might be called the Santici area in Central Bosnia?
7 A. Yes. Yes, it is correct.
8 Q. Is it also correct that approximately
9 70 per cent of that population just referred to, in
10 your estimate, was Croat?
11 A. Yes, it is correct.
12 Q. And is it also correct that in that village
13 area, there were something like 15 Muslim or Bosniak
14 houses in the village?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. SCOTT: Now, for purposes of the Court,
17 if the witness has in front of him -- I believe you do
18 there, Witness U -- a map which is marked as Z2271,
19 although the usher might need to -- I'm sorry, some
20 assistance. And I think, for these purposes, there is
21 no reason why this can't be on the ELMO. It would be,
22 I think, the easiest way for everyone. If you can
23 focus on -- all right. That's okay.
24 Q. If you start with -- orient yourself to
25 Vitez, can you point out on the map where Santici is
1 located, and then perhaps the camera can zoom in on
2 that particular portion, if you can find it.
3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, the video is not
4 terribly clear. I'm not sure if -- okay. That's
5 fine. All right.
6 Q. So you're pointing now to the village of
7 Santici, which, on the map, is probably something like
8 oh, three or four centimetres to the right of Vitez; is
9 that correct?
10 A. It is, yes.
11 Q. Can you just, by way of further orientation,
12 point out the village of Ahmici, which I believe you
13 will find a little further to the right.
14 A. [Indicates]
15 JUDGE MAY: That's, in fact, rather
16 misleading, isn't it? Because Ahmici is right next
17 door to Santici.
18 MR. SCOTT: It is, Your Honour. In fact,
19 that was my next question of the witness. If you look
20 at this map, it looks like there is considerable
21 distance; but I think the witness will indicate that it
22 is, to use the Court's word, somewhat misleading.
23 Q. Witness U, how close, in fact, on the ground,
24 is Santici to Ahmici?
25 A. Well, that locality seems to be joined. It's
1 about 500 metres from my home.
2 Q. Would it be fair to say, Witness U, that the
3 two villages in a sense kind of meld together?
4 A. Yes, they do meld together.
5 Q. And is it correct that perhaps -- you just
6 indicated that what might be considered, if we can use
7 the term in villages this small, the centre of Ahmici
8 would be about 500 metres from your house?
9 A. Yes, true.
10 Q. Let's move forward: Is it correct, sir, that
11 on the 18th of October, 1992, the HVO attacked
12 Santici. At about 8.00 that morning you heard gunshots
13 and went to the southwest balcony of your house; is
14 that correct?
15 A. It is, yes.
16 Q. You saw HVO soldiers running between the
17 houses. You recognised some of the soldiers as your
18 neighbours, although you did not know their names, or
19 at least all of their names. They wore camouflage
20 uniforms and camouflage bulletproof vests and were
21 carrying weapons?
22 A. Yes, correct.
23 Q. And one of the HVO soldiers appeared to you,
24 to your observation, to be going in the direction of
25 the HVO headquarters; is that correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Now, when you say "HVO headquarters" in this
3 particular context, are you referring to a local
4 headquarters, if you will, in Santici?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And if you can look at Exhibit Z1982, the
7 aerial photograph.
8 MR. SCOTT: And, Your Honour, I'll have to
9 clarify here: This reference to a building 15 is keyed
10 to a different diagram. It should have been simply
11 taken out of the outline, I suppose, but it was a key
12 to an earlier statement.
13 Q. If you look at Exhibit 1982, is it correct,
14 sir, that the HVO headquarters that you're referring to
15 now was in building or location 4?
16 A. Yes, that is so.
17 Q. In addition to being a headquarters or a
18 gathering -- a meeting place, that was also the house
19 of someone named Colic; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, it is.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. It is.
23 Q. Moving forward, on the 18th of October, as
24 you began a few minutes ago, you saw a man named Nenad
25 Santic running down the road from his house wearing a
1 camouflage uniform and carrying an automatic rifle. He
2 turned the corner at the Pican Cafe and headed north on
3 the road to -- in the direction of Pirici, in the
4 direction of this same HVO headquarters; is that
6 A. It is, yes.
7 Q. And if you can just remind me, I apologise,
8 for the correct pronunciation of that cafe: Pican?
9 A. Pican. Pican.
10 Q. And on the Exhibit 1982, is that the location
11 number 2?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. Now, did you know that Nenad
14 Santic was a Croat and the commander of the -- the very
15 local commander of the HVO in the Santici area?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. About 30 minutes after seeing what you
18 described in the last couple of minutes, you saw a
19 yellow flat-bed truck with a three-barrel anti-aircraft
20 gun mounted on the back; this same Mr. Santic was on
21 the back of the truck with the anti-aircraft gun; you
22 saw the truck was going in the direction toward Ahmici;
23 and after this, you heard heavy firing. Is that
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. This same truck then came back and stopped in
2 front of your house. Mr. Santic aimed the
3 anti-aircraft gun at your house. About this time, Ivo
4 Vidovic and Anto Vidosevic came out of the Pican Cafe
5 and told Mr. Santic not to shoot at your house and, in
6 fact, he did not; is that correct?
7 A. It is, yes.
8 Q. And this same truck with the anti-aircraft
9 gun was then parked in front of Ivo Vidovic's house?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. During these events around the 18th of
12 October of 1992, a 19-year-old Muslim man was killed.
13 You also saw Sakib Pezer trying to stop his house from
14 burning. Anes Pezer told you several days later that
15 his house and the mosque had also been struck by
16 bullets; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. Shortly after the 18th of October, sir, is it
19 correct that again this same Nenad Santic, then also a
20 Miro Josipovic and another man named Zeljko, came to
21 your house; they searched the house and found the
22 pistol for which your father, in fact, had a permit;
23 and they took the pistol and your father to the local
24 HVO headquarters?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did you learn from your father, sir, that at
2 that time, Mr. Santic threatened or made actions
3 toward, in fact, beating your father at the HVO
4 headquarters, but in the end, he did not?
5 A. Yes. True.
6 Q. All right. Now, Witness U, I'm going forward
7 a few days, to the 23rd of October. On that day, were
8 you sleeping in your room when you again heard
9 shooting, when a red van -- you got up, looked out.
10 There was a red van in front of your house with the
11 black letters "HVO" painted on the front of the van?
12 A. Yes, it is true.
13 Q. What else did you see at that time? What was
14 happening outside?
15 A. I saw a soldier holding a rifle aiming at the
16 sky, but he was saying, "Balijas, balijas," and firing
17 shots in the air, and others were breaking the glass
18 (redacted). They looted the store,
19 and after that, they boarded the van and headed towards
20 Vitez. Then they paused, and when they stopped, one
21 could hear two explosions. After that, they went on
22 towards Vitez.
23 Q. Were you able to determine, then, you and
24 your family, soon after this event, that, in fact, two
25 hand grenades had been tossed into the (redacted)?
1 A. Yes. Two grenades were tossed.
2 Q. Is it correct, sir, that about five minutes
3 after this, again the same Mr. Nenad Santic and Zeljko
4 Livancic arrived; your father told them what had
5 happened, told them that the van had gone in the
6 direction of Vitez; Mr. Santic was heard telling
7 Livancic that they should go toward Vitez. Is that
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. Is it also correct that about 30 minutes
11 later, Mr. Santic and Livancic came back to the house
12 with three HVO soldiers, one of whom you recognised or
13 was called, again, Ivo Vidovic, and another was --
14 perhaps you can remind me about his name.
15 A. Anto Papic.
16 Q. All five of these men, including Mr. Santic,
17 were wearing camouflage uniforms with HVO patches; is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. Two of them had automatic rifles?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, this same Zeljko Livancic had previously
23 attacked and beaten your father in a Croat store in
24 Santici; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, it is.
1 Q. All right. Now, concerning these hand
2 grenades being thrown (redacted), can
3 you tell us, Witness U, to your knowledge was anyone
4 ever arrested or punished in connection with that
6 A. No, nobody ever.
7 Q. Can you tell the Court whether you believed
8 that Mr. Santic, in fact, would do something about it,
9 about this incident?
10 A. We did not.
11 Q. Why was that?
12 A. He said he was going towards Vitez to see
13 what it was about, and when he came back he said that
14 HVO soldiers were sleeping at the roadblock and they
15 had not seen any man. Before that, he searched the
16 house and was attacking my father in the HVO
17 headquarters, and then he seized the weapon for which
18 we had a permit, on no grounds at all. He gave us a
19 piece of paper, "Nenad Santic, Commander of the Santici
21 Q. All these events leading you to the
22 conclusion that you did not expect Mr. Santic to take,
23 in fact, any action about this incident (redacted)
25 A. We were not expecting him to do anything
1 about it.
2 Q. This incident, sir, caused, I take it,
3 obviously some fear and stress to your family?
4 A. Yes, it did, very much so.
5 Q. Is it correct, sir, then that continuing on
6 from about the time of these incidents in October 1992
7 and moving forward to April of 1993, that you and your
8 family were regularly receiving threatening telephone
9 calls because you were Muslim?
10 A. Yes, that is true.
11 Q. It appeared to you that during this time,
12 after October 1992, conditions, relationships were
13 deteriorating and it seemed to you that the Croats did
14 not want the Muslims to live in Santici any more?
15 A. Yes, it is true.
16 Q. All right. Sir, we're jumping to the 15th of
17 April, 1993. Can you tell the Court, do you recall
18 anything unusual about that day? Obviously, I think,
19 at this point you know it was the day before some other
20 tragedy, but on the 15th of April, was there anything
21 unusual to you about that day?
22 A. No. I was at school and everything was as
23 usual. I came home, got ready all my things for school
24 the next day, and I didn't to school then.
25 [Technical problem]
1 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
2 MR. SCOTT: Thank you.
3 Q. Sorry, Witness U. The last question pending
4 was: On the 15th of April, do you recall anything
5 unusual about that day, anything you saw around the
6 Santici, Ahmici area that seemed unusual to you?
7 A. No, nothing happened. As I said, I was at
8 school in Vitez. I came back and everything was as
9 usual. So I put together my things that I needed for
10 the next day and that was that.
11 Q. You were going to school in Vitez at that
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you tell the Court, is it correct that on
15 the 15th of April, or the preceding days, for that
16 matter, was there any ABiH or Muslim military activity
17 in Santici, to your knowledge?
18 A. No, there wasn't.
19 Q. And is it correct that you did not see in
20 that area any defensive earthworks or positions,
21 military positions, either existing or being prepared
23 A. Yes, that is true.
24 Q. All right. Now, directing you then to the
25 next day, the 16th of April, can you tell us what
1 happened starting early that morning, and perhaps you
2 can tell us part of this story in your own words.
3 A. In the morning we heard a powerful
4 explosion. My brother and I were in our room, and we
5 went to our parents' room. My brother said to our
6 father that there was this explosion, and our father
7 said that he knew that.
8 We all got up and came out into the hallway
9 because it was shielded and that is where we were.
10 Then we heard gunfire shots which came from the
11 direction of Pican's cafe and Anto Vidosevic's house
12 into my room and my brother's room and my father's
13 room. Then we went down to the ground floor, and we
14 took along our pillows and quilts with us because we
15 decided that we should be there and not go anywhere.
16 After that, we heard somebody say, "Boss,
17 Boss, come out of the house." My father opened the
18 door and said, "I have no weapons. I surrender." The
19 soldier then ordered us to come out with our hands up
20 and we did that.
21 He took us across the street to a fence and
22 told us to look in the opposite direction and turn our
23 backs on our house. We could hear them breaking the
24 windows and entering the house. One of them then
25 asked, "Do you have any weapons?" Father said, "We
1 don't." He said, "If we find any, we'll slit the
2 throats of all of you."
3 Q. How did these men, the ones who were outside
4 your door, how were they dressed?
5 A. They were in camouflage uniforms and they
6 were also painted with some creams on the face, and
7 they had HVO flashes.
8 One of them then told my father to come into
9 the house, and my father stayed there for a while and
10 then came back. He told us then that they had taken
11 the money which we had and his wallet.
12 Then I heard them talk and say, "What are we
13 to do with them?" One of them said, "Well, take them
14 to where the others are." So he told us to move down
15 the main road, and we went for about (redacted) metres
16 and then turned into the yard of Mustafa Dedic, Mujo.
17 We reached his house, which was on fire, and
18 there I saw Munib Ribo and Mustafa lying down killed.
19 Q. Before we go too far ahead, a few details.
20 When the HVO soldiers approached your house, I take it
21 your family dog became concerned, was barking and an
22 HVO soldier shot and killed your dog; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. Then --
25 A. Yes. Yes. That's correct.
1 Q. The money that was taken from your father or
2 from inside the house, this was approximately
3 29.000 Deutschemarks?
4 A. Yes, 29.000 in the green safe, and I don't
5 know how much he had in his wallet.
6 As we were passing along the road, I saw that
7 there were many soldiers in front of Pican's cafe and
8 they were laughing at us. They were also wearing
9 camouflage uniforms and their faces were painted in
10 different colours.
11 Then I saw the bodies of Ribo Munib and
12 Mustafa Dedic. Then one of the two told my brother to
13 open the door of the garage, of Mustafa Dedic's garage,
14 and they told me and my mother to go into the garage.
15 My brother also tried to enter the garage, but he told
16 him to go back and to lock the garage.
17 After, that I heard shots immediately. I
18 peeped through the openings on the garage doors, the
19 openings between the boards, and I saw my father and
20 brother lying there dead.
21 Q. Why did they kill your father and brother?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Why did they? Why were they killed?
24 A. Because they were Muslims.
25 Q. Had your father or brother offered any
1 resistance at any time during that morning?
2 A. No, no resistance at all.
3 MR. SCOTT: In fact, I'm momentarily
4 referring back to paragraph 32, Your Honour.
5 Q. When the HVO tried to enter the garage at
6 your house, your brother, in fact, offered to open the
7 door for them rather than have the door broken; is that
9 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, he offered the keys of the
10 garage and of the car but the soldier said nothing. He
11 continued breaking down the door and that's how it
13 Q. Now, before you got to the garage where your
14 father and brother were killed, you said at the house
15 of Mujo Dedic you saw the bodies of two other Muslim
16 men, Mujo Dedic and Ribo Munib; is that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. If we can look at Exhibit Z1982, the aerial
19 photograph. Was Mr. Dedic's house -- is that location
20 number 5?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. It was burning at the time when you walked by
23 the house; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, it was burning. We were standing next
25 to it and it was burning. It was very hot.
1 Q. When you look now, in fact, at the
2 photograph, you can see that the roof is burned off of
3 the house; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, correct.
5 Q. And the location of the garage where your
6 father and brother were killed, was that at location
7 number 6?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Continue on, please. What happen then after
10 your father and brother were killed?
11 A. After that we were told we mustn't go out,
12 not even to the toilet or to drink water, and if anyone
13 went out, he would be killed.
14 After that, I recognised Semren. His
15 nickname was Zuti. I recognised him. He was masked,
16 but he was easily recognisable, and he responded to a
17 woman calling him by name,"Semren, Semren, Zuti." I
18 also saw Drazenko Vidovic there.
19 We were there for a while and then we were
20 transferred to Nesib Ahmic's house, which was partly
21 burned down, and we spent the night there. In the
22 morning --
23 Q. Witness, before you go on, this Semren, was
24 his first name -- apart from his nickname "Zuti," was
25 his name Ivica?
1 A. Yes. Yes. Yes, his name is Ivica.
2 Q. Then you went to Nesib Ahmic's house, which
3 was partly burnt but partly still extant, and you spent
4 the night there?
5 A. Yes. Then in the morning some Croats in
6 civilian clothes came and took us to the HVO
7 headquarters. We were there. I sat with Heleg Munib,
8 right next to Heleg Munib, and he told me if anything
9 were to happen to him that I should let his son know
10 that it was Nenad Santic who was to blame for
11 everything. He had planned everything and that
12 everything started from him.
13 After that, two members of the HVO came in.
14 Again they were wearing camouflage uniforms, and they
15 took Hasim and his two sons. They wanted to take Haris
16 Dedic as well, but his mother begged, "Don't. Don't
17 take him. You've killed his brother and father already
18 so leave him." So didn't take him. They took Hasim
19 and his two sons and Munib Heleg.
20 After some time, Nikica Plavsic walked into
21 the room, nicknamed Slikar. Hasim's wife asked Nikica
22 where her husband and two sons were, and he said that
23 special forces had killed them and not to expect them
24 to return, and that they were going to go to Pirici to
25 set fire to everything and kill everyone as they had
1 done in Ahmici.
2 Q. Let me stop you there for a moment,
3 Witness U. As you were still being held in the garage,
4 is it correct that there was another young man, you
5 just referred to him, Haris Dedic, and that his father
6 and brother, who were both Muslims, had also been
7 killed earlier that day; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, his father and brother had been killed,
9 and they wanted to take him and kill him too.
10 Q. And this is when his mother intervened and
11 said, "You have already killed my husband and other
12 son, so don't take him"?
13 A. Yes. Yes, yes.
14 Q. So the record is clear on these four men, the
15 four men who were taken out, one was this man Heleg,
16 and then Hasim Ahmic and his two sons, Zenur Ahmic and
17 Amir Ahmic; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, yes, correct.
19 Q. And can you tell the Court, sir, did you, in
20 fact, ever see those four Muslim men alive again?
21 A. No. Never. I never saw them again.
22 MR. SCOTT: If I can ask the usher to show
23 you Exhibit Z1540.
24 Q. Is that the man that you saw that day, and
25 talked to, and then was taken away, named Heleg?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Witness U, is it correct that it was your
3 conclusion or belief that the HVO soldiers who were in
4 Santici on the 16th of April were helped, or, in fact,
5 maybe included some of your neighbours, who were HVO,
6 in doing these things that you've described in the last
7 few minutes?
8 A. Yes, correct.
9 Q. Can you tell the Court why, in your view, was
10 it necessary that some of the Croats and your
11 neighbours from Santici were, in fact, involved in
12 these events, that is, in carrying them out?
13 A. Because people from the outside, if you bring
14 people from the outside, they can't distinguish between
15 Muslim and Croat houses. That is why I believe, and
16 that is true, that our neighbours helped them, that our
17 neighbours were involved in this.
18 Q. For the Court's general assistance,
19 Witness U, have you heard it to be something of a --
20 I'll use the worth "myth," or incorrect information,
21 that some people say that all Muslim houses have
22 four-sided roofs and that all Croat houses have
23 two-sided roofs, and that's the way that anyone looking
24 at the house can tell whether it's a Croat house or a
25 Muslim house? Is that true or false?
1 A. You cannot tell which house is whose.
5 Q. If I can direct your attention and the
6 Court's attention again to Exhibit 1982, if I can
7 direct your attention to locations 2 and 15, can you
8 tell us whether, to your knowledge, Croats lived in
9 those buildings, or Muslims?
10 A. Croats lived there.
11 Q. Yet when you look at the photograph, you can
12 see that, from the still-existing roofs, these were
13 four-sided roofs; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. On the 16th of April, in Santici, sir, did
16 you see any Croat houses, houses where Croats lived,
17 burned or damaged?
18 A. No. Neither burnt nor damaged.
19 Q. Whereas if you look -- and if the Court can
20 take the time at its own leisure to look at
21 Exhibit 1982, its more length, you can look at, for
22 instance, locations 11, 10, 12, 7, 8, and a number of
23 others -- is it correct, Witness U, you can see that
24 all the roofs on those houses have been burned off?
25 A. Yes, correct.
1 Q. Let's move forward, then. After you had
2 spent some time in the garage from which these four men
3 were taken, what happened after that?
4 A. After that, two UNPROFOR vehicles arrived,
5 and the women with babies wanted to go to Zenica. Then
6 Jevco came running from Pirici, and he took those
7 UNPROFOR vehicles away from us. Later on we saw them
8 stop for a moment and then turn around and go off in
9 the direction of Vitez.
10 After that, all of us together headed towards
11 Vitez. We were stopped there at a point called
12 Dubravica, the old railway station. We stopped there,
13 and then, again, a Croat came by. His kum was Islam
14 Ahmic, and he had been killed, and he had put his women
15 and children in his car, and so he picked up me and
16 another boy, Ahmic Elmir, and took us to Vitez. My
17 mother stayed behind. She told me to go. She couldn't
19 After that, we reached Vitez. I asked him to
20 go back, if he could, to get my mother. He said he
21 would try, but he didn't manage. I don't know what
22 happened. He didn't bring my mother over.
23 Q. Witness U, let me again stop on a few
24 details. You used just now the word "kum"; with the
25 interpreters' help, what does that mean?
1 A. When a baby is born, then somebody comes as a
2 godfather, and that is a kum. So they had that kind of
3 relationship, as families.
4 Q. All right. Now, before we move on, the HVO
5 soldiers that you saw in Santici on the 16th of April,
6 1993, at least the ones that you recognised, is it
7 correct, sir, that they were all from Santici?
8 A. Yes, it is correct.
9 Q. And is Santici part of the Vitez
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Was it your understanding, therefore, at this
13 time, that these HVO soldiers in Santici were part of
14 the HVO Vitez Brigade and under the command and control
15 of the Vitez Brigade?
16 JUDGE MAY: Well, I'm not sure the witness is
17 in a position to so describe these events unless a
18 proper foundation is laid.
19 MR. SCOTT: Let me see if I can assist, Your
21 Q. From your living in the area and interacting
22 with your Croat neighbours and seeing, in fact, some of
23 these same men who you recognised on the 16th of April,
24 did you know that there were in fact HVO members or
25 soldiers in the Santici area?
1 A. Yes. Yes, I did know them.
2 Q. Did you have any information, in talking with
3 any of these soldiers, what unit or brigade they were
4 part of?
5 A. I talked to Bruno Santic, and he lived in a
6 place that is separated from Santici by the river.
7 This place is called Donja Rovna. He told me that they
8 belonged to the Busovaca Brigade, to Busovaca.
9 Q. All right.
10 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I think we're
11 jumping ahead in the outline now and perhaps confusing
12 two different groups, so I will move forward. I think,
13 as the Court indicated, we probably can't go further
14 with that.
15 Q. All right. Now, as you then moved off from
16 this garage and went toward Vitez and then ultimately
17 to -- your mother stopped at the Dubravica school and
18 did not go on to this apartment in Vitez; is that
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. And do you remember, during these events, the
22 HVO soldier's name who told you that you would be
23 exchanged, the group of you would be exchanged and
24 taken to -- again, to Vitez or Dubravica?
25 A. Anto Papic.
1 Q. All right. Then you mentioned this Croat man
2 who had picked up some of you and taken you to an
3 apartment in Vitez; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How long were you at this apartment?
6 A. For 17 days.
7 Q. During the time when you were staying in
8 Vitez, did you see any bodies, or burned houses, in
9 Vitez in the area of where you were staying at that
11 A. No, I didn't see any.
12 Q. Referring back to the people who had stayed
13 at the Dubravica school, did you ever talk afterwards
14 to Haris Dedic?
15 A. Yes, I did. I spoke to him, and he told me
16 that they had taken people to dig trenches, the
17 prisoners. They took the prisoners to dig trenches.
18 Q. And these prisoners, to your knowledge, were
20 A. Yes. Yes. Only Muslims.
21 Q. All right. Let's move forward, then, again.
22 Did there come a time when you left this apartment in
23 Vitez and went to another location?
24 A. Yes, we went to the elementary school in
25 Vitez, and they said that the Red Cross was there, that
1 we could apply and be registered, and we would be taken
2 to Zenica. However, nothing came of that. We were
3 there for three days. HVO soldiers were there.
4 After that, this Croat came who had brought
5 us to this apartment, and he took us to the road
6 towards Zenica. It's a roundabout road through the
7 mountains, and he told us to go alone, that he could
8 not help us, saying, "Surely they will not shoot."
9 So we headed off. We passed by the Muslim
10 cemetery. HVO soldiers were there digging trenches,
11 and I saw them drinking water. They didn't say
12 anything to us. We went on, and then we heard
13 shooting. Bullets flew over our heads, so we lay
14 down. Later on, we came to the conclusion that those
15 were snipers that were trying to hit us. And then we
17 Q. And you went on to Zenica, and is it fair to
18 say, sir, that you then lived in Zenica for the rest of
19 the war?
20 A. Yes. I lived in Zenica.
21 Q. All right. Again, a couple of details.
22 Just, in fairness, going back to the time you spent at
23 the elementary school in Vitez, you did not see, during
24 that particular occasion, any Muslims hurt or killed,
25 and did not see any women or girls taken away at that
1 location by the HVO; is that correct?
2 A. No, I didn't see any.
3 Q. And the size of this group that you were on
4 the road to Zenica with, how many people were you
5 travelling with at that time?
6 A. Eight to ten people.
7 Q. In concluding this part of these subjects,
8 let me ask you to look at -- and let me be specific
9 that these not be put on the ELMO, Your Honour, because
10 they would be identifying, or at least some of them
11 would be identifying. But if you can look, please,
12 first, at Exhibit Z1986.
13 MR. SCOTT: These are going to be several --
14 four or five photographs, Your Honour.
15 Q. The family shown in Exhibit 1986, who is
16 that, or who is the man? Let's start with that.
17 A. This is the late Ribo Munib. I saw him
18 killed (redacted).
19 Q. This was one of the two men who you saw --
20 whose bodies you saw on the ground near Mujo Dedic's
21 house; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, correct.
23 Q. Exhibit 1987 is just a different photograph
24 of the same man and his family; is that correct?
25 A. Yes. That is correct.
1 Q. Let me direct your attention, next, to
2 Exhibit 1984. The man to the right of the photograph,
3 with no shirt, is that your father?
4 A. Yes, that is my father.
5 Q. And the young man approximately in the middle
6 of the photograph, with someone behind him in a striped
7 shirt, is that your brother, who was killed on the 16th
8 of April?
9 A. Yes. Yes, that is my brother.
10 Q. And are you in that picture, sir?
11 A. Yes, next to -- next to my brother, with a
12 cap on the head.
13 Q. You're the young boy in the white shirt; is
14 that right?
15 A. Yes. Yes.
16 Q. And who is to your brother's right?
17 A. That is my mother.
18 Q. Exhibit 1985: Is that a photograph of your
19 brother, who was killed?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 Q. Moving forward, then, Witness U -- are you
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You knew that this Nenad Santic was the HVO
25 commander in Santici, and he was -- in your view, was
1 he the one in Santici who was working the most or
2 taking the most actions against the Muslims in Santici?
3 A. Yes. Yes. It was Nenad Santic.
4 Q. During these events, or during 1992 and 1993,
5 did you know of a man named Dario Kordic?
6 A. Yes. I did know.
7 Q. And who did you know or understand Mr. Kordic
8 to be?
9 A. He was a highly influential person in Central
10 Bosnia, and I believe that he -- I don't know how to
11 put it -- that he was the leader down there of the HVO
12 in Central Bosnia.
13 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Kordic in Santici?
14 A. Yes, I did see him.
15 Q. Directing your attention, then, to
16 approximately the end of October period of 1992, was it
17 around that time that you saw Mr. Kordic in Santici?
18 A. Yes, I did see him.
19 Q. Can you tell us, then, in your own words,
20 what you saw of Mr. Kordic that day?
21 A. I was coming back home from school, and
22 across the road from my house was Nenad Santic, in a
23 suit, and he was carrying a briefcase. I passed by
24 him. I greeted him and went home. After that, I saw a
25 jeep coming up, and I saw that there was the driver
1 inside and Dario Kordic. Nenad Santic got into the
2 jeep, and they drove off in the direction of Vitez.
3 Q. Was there any particular reason that you said
4 hello to this Mr. Santic as you walked by on your way
5 home from school?
6 A. Yes. He told Elmir Ahmic to tell all of us
7 that we would have to greet him whenever we saw him.
8 Q. When you say "all of us," sir, who are you
9 referring to?
10 A. Us Muslims.
11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me,
12 Mr. Scott. I should like to ask the witness whether
13 Mr. Santic had an official position in Santici at that
15 A. He was an HVO commander in Santici. I don't
16 know exactly whether he had any formal position, but I
17 know that he was the HVO commander in Santici.
18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Scott, if you come to a
19 convenient moment, we'll adjourn.
20 MR. SCOTT: There are one or two further
21 questions on this topic, Your Honour, but we can take
22 it just as easily after a break.
23 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now
24 until half past 11.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Scott.
3 MR. SCOTT:
4 Q. Witness, before moving on then, if you could
5 look again at --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Scott.
7 MR. SCOTT:
8 Q. Before moving on, can you look again at
9 Exhibit 1982, the aerial photograph.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you point out approximately on the
12 photograph where you saw Mr. Santic standing or waiting
13 when you then later saw him being picked up in a car
14 with Mr. Kordic?
15 A. I saw him opposite me. He was there between
16 my house and Pican's restaurant. He was standing there
17 on the corner.
18 Q. All right. Given that reference, I'm not
19 going to ask that it be put on the ELMO for
20 identification, because it may be identifying.
21 Is it fair to say then -- let us go this
22 way: The point where Mr. Santic was standing was
23 something -- 50 metres or less from where you observed
25 A. Less. About 30 metres.
1 Q. You said that there were two people in the
2 car, a driver and then you saw Dario Kordic; is that
4 A. It is, yes.
5 Q. All right. Now, continuing on, can you tell
6 the Court whether soon after when you saw this event in
7 Santici, did you see Mr. Kordic on television?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell the Court what you saw and what
10 you remember about that?
11 A. I saw that Dario Kordic and Slavica
12 Josipovic, they were on television together. It was a
13 meeting at Grude.
14 Q. And who was this Slavica Josipovic?
15 A. She was Nenad Santic's sister.
16 Q. To your knowledge, did she work in the HVO
17 headquarters in Vitez?
18 A. Yes. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell the Court the approximate
20 connection in time or relationship in time between
21 seeing Mr. Santic and Mr. Kordic in Santici and then
22 when you saw Mr. Kordic on television concerning the
23 meeting in Grude?
24 A. It was either that same evening or the next
25 evening that I saw him on television.
1 Q. Moving on then, Witness U. Were you
2 childhood friends with someone named Bruno Santic?
3 A. Yes, I was.
4 Q. And this Mr. Santic, Bruno, had a brother by
5 the name of Leonard Santic, nicknamed Leno?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And these were the sons of Zvonko Santic and
8 they lived in Donja Rovna in the municipality Busovaca;
9 is that correct?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. I think you mentioned this earlier. Is it
12 correct that Donja Rovna is close to Santici but on the
13 opposite side of the Lasva River?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. All right. Now, is it correct to say, sir,
16 that at least up until some point in time you and this
17 Bruno Santic continued to be friendly toward one
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you recall an occasion when Bruno Santic
21 said something to you about a military unit that he was
22 a member of?
23 A. Yes. He told me he was a member of a special
24 unit which was Kordic's special unit. That's what it
25 was called. He told me that the training was very hard
1 and that many could not pass it and that -- something
2 about Kordic having elected them -- selected specially
3 for that unit and that some of them were his
5 Q. Do you understand where this unit was based
6 or where this training was taking place?
7 A. All I know is that it was in Busovaca, that
8 the training ground was in Busovaca, but I really don't
9 know where the training itself was taking place.
10 Q. Let me ask you to look -- well, did you see
11 any patches on, when you had this conversation, Bruno
12 Santic? Did you see any insignia or patches on his
14 A. Yes. He had an HVO patch.
15 Q. And did he have a brother -- did you see his
16 brother on this particular occasion or at some point
17 around this time see the two of them together;
19 A. I saw them both together and separately. We
20 used to meet, and his brother had an HVO patch.
21 Q. All right. Let me just ask you: Did one of
22 them have an HV patch and the other have an HVO patch,
23 or did they both have the came patches?
24 A. One, Bruno, had an HV [realtime transcript
25 read in error HVO] patch, and Leno had an HVO [realtime
1 transcript read in error HV] patch.
2 Q. I'm going to ask you to look, please, at
3 Exhibit 1458,1, and again because of some markings on
4 that exhibit, I ask that it not be displayed and that
5 it will be sealed, but if the witness and the Court can
6 look at a hard copy, if you will, of 1458,1.
7 Sir, is that a drawing that you made of the
8 patch, the HV patch or insignia that you saw on Bruno
9 Santic's uniform?
10 A. Yes. Yes.
11 JUDGE MAY: I thought the witness said that
12 Bruno had the HV patch and Leonard had the -- Bruno had
13 the HVO patch and Leonard had the HV patch. Perhaps
14 you could clear that up.
15 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. I'm looking
16 back at the transcript myself, but let's just simply
17 ask again.
18 Q. Between the two brothers, sir -- can you just
19 be as clear as possible in response to the Judge's
20 question -- which of the brothers had the HV patch and
21 which had the HVO patch?
22 A. Bruno Santic, Bruno Santic had an HV patch
23 and Leonard Santic's patch was HVO.
24 Q. It was Bruno Santic who told you that he was
25 in this Dario Kordic special unit?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did Bruno Santic say anything to you about
3 how the members of this unit were selected? I'm sorry,
4 I'm looking at the transcript. I don't know if you
5 answered that or not. Did he tell you how the members
6 of this unit were selected?
7 A. That he -- that Dario Kordic selected them
8 himself and that the training was very hard and that it
9 lasted for two months. That's what he told me.
10 Q. Very well. Is it fair to say, Witness U,
11 that you can recall seeing Mr. Kordic on television
12 approximately five times?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. These were usually something we might call
15 press conferences?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How would Mr. Kordic be dressed during these
18 televised press conferences?
19 A. At times he would be in a camouflage uniform
20 and at times he was in civilian clothes.
21 Q. And is it correct that you remember seeing
22 Colonel Blaskic at least two of these same press
23 conferences together with Mr. Kordic?
24 A. Yes, that is true.
25 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Kordic speaking on the
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And what, if anything, do you remember him
5 A. On that occasion, he talked about war. I
6 didn't really understand what he was saying, but he
7 said something like the Muslims and Croats could not go
8 on living together any more.
9 Q. And finally, one last other point of
10 information, sir: During the time of the war, had you
11 also known or heard of an HVO unit which wore black
12 uniforms and were called the Jokeri?
13 A. Yes, I did hear about them.
14 Q. Thank you, Witness U.
15 MR. SCOTT: We have no further questions.
16 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] With your
17 leave, Your Honours, may we be the first ones to
18 cross-examine the witness?
19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.
20 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:
22 Q. I'm Bozidar Kovacic. I'm a lawyer from
23 Rijeka, from Croatia. I'm sorry we have to look at one
24 another across this. I am the counsel for the second
25 accused, Mario Cerkez, in this case, together with my
1 colleague Mr. Mikulicic. I am sorry, I know you
2 suffered losses in this war, but I nevertheless need to
3 ask you some questions so as to clarify certain
4 points. We both speak the same language, so I
5 should -- and this same holds true of me; let us try to
6 make pauses so that the interpreters have time to
7 translate both answers and questions. I trust I shall
8 be rather brief.
9 So, Witness U, could you tell me, at that
10 time, you were a young man in the secondary school, at
11 the time when all those things happened. In 1992,
12 before the incident you told us about in October '92
13 took place, did you see any village guards before that?
14 A. Yes, I used to see them.
15 Q. So tell us, were those village guards of a
16 mixed composition? That is, did both Muslims and
17 Croats from the village take part in them? Or were
18 they monoethnic?
19 A. In the beginning, they were mixed, and later
20 on Croats took those village guards upon themselves.
21 Q. And did those men who participated in village
22 guards wear some uniforms?
23 A. The Croats did. The Muslims did not have any
24 uniforms, so they were in civilian clothes.
25 Q. And was it a rule without an exception, or
1 was it the general picture?
2 A. Well, some may have had a shirt or something,
3 I mean a camouflage shirt or something, but very few of
5 Q. Does that hold true of both parties?
6 A. No, no, no, this holds true only of the
7 Muslim party. The Croats had uniforms with HVO
9 Q. Did all the Croats wear the same kind of
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And from what you know, what kind of weapons
13 did the Croats serving on village guards have?
14 A. Different types of weapons, but by and large,
15 automatic rifles.
16 Q. Would you know anything about how they
17 obtained those weapons?
18 A. No, I don't.
19 Q. Thank you. Nenad Santic, whom you mentioned
20 a couple of times, was he also part of these village
22 A. He did not go out on guard duty, because he
23 was an HVO commander in Santici.
24 Q. In 1992, the HVO in Santici, the only thing
25 they did was go on guard?
1 A. Why, yes, and he was a commander. A
2 commander won't go out to stand guard, would he?
3 Q. So you think that he was the one who issued
4 the orders of assignment, and duties, and things like
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How did you learn that? Was that common
8 knowledge in the village?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Nobody talked about that to you
11 personally, showed you a paper?
12 A. Well, when he searched the house and seized
13 our pistol, he gave us a piece of paper, and I have it
14 at home in Bosnia. It said that a pistol of
15 such-and-such make was being seized, and under it, it
16 said, "HVO Commander, Nenad Santic."
17 Q. Thank you. The conflict that you told us
18 about, or better said, the attack in October '92, that
19 was, I believe, on the 18th of October. Are you quite
20 sure that it was the 18th of October, or the 20th of
22 A. 18th of October.
23 Q. Because, at that time, there was another
24 skirmish because a roadblock was put up above the
25 Catholic cemetery. Do you know anything about that?
1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. You mentioned that down there -- that is,
3 that a young man was killed in the village that night?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you see him die?
6 A. I didn't.
7 Q. Did you hear about the circumstances?
8 A. All I heard was that he was killed.
9 Q. But you did not hear that it happened at that
11 A. No.
12 Q. So you do not know if he was killed at that
14 A. No, I don't know.
15 Q. Thank you. Tell me just one thing: This
16 photograph which we used here, Z1982, I suppose you
17 don't know when it was taken?
18 A. It must have been taken after the conflict,
19 after the HVO attack.
20 Q. But you do not know how long after that?
21 A. No, I don't.
22 JUDGE MAY: The witness wouldn't know, but no
23 doubt the Prosecution, if it's important, can assist as
24 to when this aerial photograph was taken.
25 Mr. Scott, no doubt you can help us at some
2 MR. SCOTT: I can inquire, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
4 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Tell me, please, your house, as you come --
6 because on this photograph we do not see how this is
7 turned, but the house that you indicated to us, which
8 is marked number 1, as you come from Vitez, as you go
9 to Busovaca, eastward, where is it? On the left-hand
10 side of the road?
8 MR. KOVACIC: I apologise. It was really my
9 fault. Okay, I'll go around.
10 JUDGE MAY: If at any time you want to go
11 into private session, just ask.
12 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I don't think
13 it will be necessary.
14 Q. So between those (redacted) in the place,
15 were they competing?
16 A. What do you mean, "competing"?
17 Q. Well, there are two (redacted) in a very
18 small area. Were they rivals?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So the owner of (redacted) a Croat, wasn't
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 Tell me, please, you told us that some
25 soldiers in a van came to your house, and then you
1 found out that they'd thrown grenades (redacted)
2 (redacted). Did you or your father or any other member
3 of your family report that incident to the police?
4 A. I wouldn't know exactly. I know that father
5 called somebody by telephone, but I don't know what he
6 said. He called Nenad and somebody else, but I don't
7 know what about exactly.
8 Q. Was he asking Nenad Santic to intercede or
10 A. Yes. When he seized the weapon, he said if
11 anything, then that we should call him.
12 Q. Thank you. And the building number 4, which
13 you marked and which you said housed the HVO
14 headquarters in the village, was it its only purpose,
15 or did it serve some other purpose, too?
16 A. On the ground floor was the headquarters, and
17 they lived on the upper floor.
18 Q. So wouldn't it be true to say that it was a
19 private house, a private home, and that Santic used the
20 ground floor as his commanding post?
21 A. All I know is that it was the HVO
22 headquarters, and above it were residential premises.
23 Q. But the ground-floor premises, were they used
24 also for some village meetings when those were held?
25 A. Well, it was HVO soldiers who usually
1 gathered there.
2 Q. But wasn't it a place where people used to
3 meet and hold meetings even before the war?
4 A. I wouldn't know.
5 Q. Thank you. You said that when those soldiers
6 arrived one of them called your father to come out,
7 calling him, "Chief, chief."
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did you perhaps recognise the voice?
10 A. No.
11 Q. So you don't know who it was?
12 A. No, I don't.
13 Q. You mentioned Anto Papic, who told you that
14 you would be exchanged and so on. In an earlier
15 statement you had said that he explicitly told you that
16 he would take care of you and that nobody would kill
17 you. Do you remember that statement?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. So can I take it from this that Anto Papic
20 wanted to calm you down?
21 A. I don't know what he wanted.
22 Q. But he did say what I just said?
23 A. Yes, he did. He was the guard there.
24 Q. Tell me, please, when you spent those 17 days
25 in that apartment in Vitez, Vitez Television came there
1 one day, didn't they?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And they made a feature about it, didn't
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You made a statement?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So you didn't speak during that filming?
9 A. No. They just filmed us and nobody said
11 Q. Was there a TV set in that apartment?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you later see that feature?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. Did you hear that it had been broadcast?
16 A. Yes, I did hear it, but I don't know anything
17 about it.
18 Q. Does that mean that somebody told you that
19 they saw you on television?
20 A. They filmed us. We didn't say anything.
21 This was very brief. They came with a camera and they
22 left. I assume it was shown on television. Why else
23 would they have filmed us?
24 Q. But in any event, you didn't make any
1 A. No.
2 Q. Thank you. You said a moment ago, towards
3 the end of your testimony, that Slavica Josipovic used
4 to work in the HVO headquarters in Vitez.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you say "HVO headquarters in Vitez,"
7 what institution do you mean or, rather, which
9 A. I don't know exactly.
10 Q. You don't know, for instance, that in the
11 Vitez Hotel that the Operative Zone of the HVO had its
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you know that in the cinema in the
15 Workers' University there was another headquarters?
16 A. I heard about the cinema while I spent 17
17 days there. Sulejman was taken to the cinema for
19 Q. So you don't know in which building Slavica
21 A. No, I don't.
22 Q. You don't know perhaps the name of the
23 institution in which she worked?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. Tell us, please, Witness U, your village,
1 Santici, is actually very close to the municipal
2 border. Do you know where the border is?
3 A. No. I just know that Rovna is across the
4 Lasva, and further on I don't know.
5 Q. In connection with the TV crew that came to
6 the apartment that we have just mentioned, do you
7 remember that Sulejman Dajic made a statement?
8 A. No.
9 Q. But he was there?
10 A. I don't know whether he was, because he was
11 taken twice to the cinema, as I just said.
12 Q. Do you know that the TV Vitez studio was
13 housed in the cinema hall?
14 A. No.
15 Q. You never heard that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Very well. You said in your testimony that
18 this Croat eventually took you to the road via
19 Vjetrenica, the road that goes via Vjetrenica to
20 Zenica. Is that true?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And from thereon you went on foot?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. On that road, do you know what Sivrino Selo
1 A. I know that it is some way removed from the
2 road. I think so at least.
3 Q. So once you start climbing along this road
4 toward Vjetrenica, after a couple of kilometres you
5 come to Sivrino Selo; is that right?
6 A. Yes, to the right. On the right-hand side.
7 Q. So that area was under the control of the
8 Muslim forces?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Are you telling us that you walked all the
11 way to Zenica?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Where did someone pick you up and drive you
15 A. We stopped there and I was recognised by a
16 friend, a family friend, and he put us in a car and he
17 drove us there.
18 Q. Do you know where this was?
19 A. I don't know exactly.
20 Q. Very well. Thank you. You told us that you
21 were detained in the elementary school in Vitez for
22 three days?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you tell us which unit guarded that
25 place? Who were the guards? Were they military
2 A. HVO soldiers in camouflage uniforms. I don't
3 know whether they were the police or not.
4 Q. You couldn't tell from any insignia what unit
5 they belonged to?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, did you ever see
8 on television Mr. Cerkez?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Cerkez in Santici?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did the troops in Santici ever mention
14 A. I don't know.
15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I
16 think I have no further questions for this witness, and
17 thank you.
18 Thank you, Witness U.
19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, before you finish,
20 may I be sure that I have the position right, that
21 there is no dispute or no challenge to the witness's
22 evidence that soldiers in camouflage uniform with cream
23 on their faces and HVO flashes came to his house on the
24 16th of April, and no challenge to the events of the
25 day as he described them. Because if there is any
1 challenge to that or any dispute, then it should be put
2 so the witness has got a chance to deal with it now.
3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,
4 I think that you summarised our position well. We are
5 not challenging the fact that certain HVO soldiers came
6 to the house; secondly, we really do not know exactly
7 what happened in Santici that morning.
8 The only thing that we challenge is that they
9 were not HVO soldiers of the Vitez Brigade. And the
10 witness knows nothing about that. From the other
11 questions and answers, it is evident that he did not
12 recognise any closer insignia.
13 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic,
15 you were saying that you challenge what the witness
16 said, and that is HVO troops intervened at Santici and
17 that they were apart of the Vitez Brigade.
18 Mr. Kovacic, I am addressing you.
19 You said that you are challenging that the
20 soldiers that intervened in Santici were part of the
21 Vitez Brigade. Are you also contesting that Santici
22 was territorially a part of the Vitez command?
23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] No, Your
24 Honour. No, I'm not challenging that. Territorially
25 and according to administrative municipal borders,
1 Santici is a part of Vitez municipality, but we will
2 show documents later on to show this, that they're
3 actually bordering with the neighbouring municipality.
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
6 Your Honours.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:
8 Q. Mr. U, allow me to introduce myself. I am
9 attorney Mitko Naumovski, one of the Defence counsels
10 for Dario Kordic. I have several questions for you but
11 please remember the warning to wait a minute for your
12 answer until the question has been translated.
13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
14 about these events in Ahmici and Santici, you have had
15 occasion to hear extensive testimony, so I have only a
16 few questions for this witness so as not to remind him
17 of the terrible tragedy that he experienced.
18 Q. Mr. U, you gave five statements to the
19 investigators of The Hague Tribunal?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you testified in the case against
22 General Blaskic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Apart from those statements, did you also
25 make a statement for the centre of the security
1 services in Zenica or some other body?
2 A. No.
3 Q. While you went to school you went to the
4 elementary school?
5 A. No. I went to the secondary school.
6 Q. What year were you?
7 A. First year, I think.
8 Q. Did you keep any kind of school diary or
9 something like that?
15 Q. My colleague has asked you something about
16 this so I have just one more. If I understood you
17 well, you have no knowledge at all about the fact that
18 at the end of October 1992 there was an obstacle placed
19 on the Vitez-Busovaca road and that there was a
20 conflict there.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Not only do you not have any personal
23 knowledge, but you didn't hear anything about it.
24 A. When the attack occurred, I heard that this
25 young man had been killed.
1 Q. But that is what you said occurred on the
2 18th of October?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. The secondary school you went to, it was a
5 school attended by members of all ethnic groups?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. And you went to school together until the
8 15th of April, 1993? That was the last day?
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. When you spoke about this event in October,
11 if I understood you correctly, you just saw soldiers
12 wearing camouflage uniforms, on the 18th of October?
13 A. Yes. I saw them with HVO insignia and that
14 is what I said.
15 Q. You said that you recognised your neighbours,
16 didn't you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. But you don't know the names of those
19 neighbours that you recognised that moment?
20 A. Those I knew, I mentioned.
21 Q. One of the people you recognised is Nenad
22 Santic, that you have spoken about?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You already said that he was the local
25 commander of the HVO, as you've said, in Santici?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You heard that Nenad Santic was killed later
3 in Novi Travnik?
4 A. Yes, I heard something about it, but I don't
5 know exactly.
6 Q. You were a school pupil, and you probably
7 don't know much about these things, but I still have to
8 ask you: Do you have any personal knowledge about the
9 organisation of Territorial Defence in Santici, Ahmici,
10 and that area?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Nor were any members of your household or
13 your neighbours a member of the TO?
14 A. Yes, my brother was a member.
15 Q. The Territorial Defence in Santici, did it
16 have a separate department? Was it separate?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were they, then, part of the Ahmici
20 A. No.
21 Q. Where, then, where was your brother?
22 A. He was part of the Vitez Territorial
24 Q. Let us now go on to the events of April '93.
25 You told us that a Croat helped you and transferred you
1 to that apartment where you spent 17 days?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can we tell his name, or will that contribute
4 to disclosing your own identity?
5 A. As he is known in Vitez, I would rather not
6 mention his name.
7 Q. Never mind, then.
8 A few more questions about this. Towards the
9 end of your testimony today, you said that you saw
10 soldiers with Jokers insignia?
11 A. Yes, I did, and I heard about them.
12 Q. You don't know who the commander of the
13 Jokers was?
14 A. No, I don't.
15 Q. You don't know the names of any Jokers?
16 A. No, I don't.
17 Q. Let us now go on to a few questions linked to
18 Mr. Dario Kordic that you mentioned today. You said
19 that you were a student of the first year of secondary
20 school, so I assume you were not a member of any party;
21 you were not involved in politics?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You also had no military duties, so you have
24 no knowledge about military matters; isn't that so?
25 A. Yes, one could put it that way.
1 Q. Did you, as a student of the first year of
2 secondary school, have any knowledge about the method
3 and organisation of the authorities in Vitez
4 municipality in those days?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So you don't know who held which office, and
7 that sort of thing?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 Q. Today you spoke about your views regarding
10 the position of Mr. Dario Kordic. That was a
11 conclusion of your own, wasn't it?
12 A. I said what I thought.
13 Q. My question is, if that is the conclusion you
14 came to, what was that conclusion based on? You did
15 not follow political events, you didn't know who held
16 which position, so what is your conclusion based on?
17 A. Dario Kordic had his special unit -- may I
18 ask you a question? Why did he appear in public
19 wearing a uniform?
20 JUDGE MAY: Witness U, I'm afraid you've got
21 to answer the questions rather than ask them.
22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
23 Your Honours.
24 Q. I just asked you to explain what your
25 conclusion was based on.
1 A. But I already have.
2 Q. Because he was on television?
3 A. Yes, and because he had a special unit.
4 Q. But you only know about it from what Bruno
5 Santic told you?
6 A. Yes, Bruno Santic.
7 Q. Which Santic?
8 A. Bruno Santic.
9 Q. Oh, Bruno; I see.
10 A. Yes, Bruno, Bruno.
11 Q. I said Susnja; I'm sorry. Bruno Santic.
12 That's right.
13 Let us focus for a moment on this event when
14 you said you saw Dario Kordic in Santici. You don't
15 know exactly what date it was?
16 A. No, I don't.
17 Q. Tell us, please: Today you said that you
18 first saw Nenad Santic standing at the bus station?
19 A. Yes. Right across the road.
20 Q. You don't have to tell us, just for
21 identification purposes, in your own interest.
22 You said that the distance was some 30 metres
23 from which you saw him?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you were watching from the first floor?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. From the statement I received today from the
3 Prosecutor, it says explicitly that you were watching
4 from a distance of some 50 metres.
5 A. 30 metres.
6 Q. You're saying that today?
7 A. No, I'm saying 30 metres, the distance was.
8 Q. I'm just reminding you of what you told the
9 investigator. Is that a mistake, then? At that
10 interrogation, Mr. Patrick Lopez-Terres was present,
11 one of the Prosecutors, and it says here that you were
12 watching this from a distance of 50 metres.
13 A. 30 metres.
14 Q. Very well. Mr. Nenad Santic was in civilian
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But otherwise, he always wore a uniform in
18 October '92?
19 A. Mostly he wore a uniform.
20 Q. From what direction did this car come?
21 A. From the direction of Busovaca.
22 Q. Could you tell us a little more about the
23 car? The colour?
24 A. I don't remember the colour. I know it was a
1 Q. A military or civilian vehicle?
2 A. A civilian vehicle.
3 Q. Could you perhaps see the license plate?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Tell us, please: You said that you
6 immediately recognised Mr. Kordic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In the car?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Where was he sitting in the car?
11 A. He was sitting on the side closest to my
13 Q. But in relation to the driver?
14 A. He was sitting so that I could see him at the
16 Q. But what seat in the car?
17 A. Behind. Behind, to the right of the driver.
18 Q. Could you tell us what his hairstyle was
20 A. Mr. Kordic had a short haircut. His hair was
21 cut short.
22 Q. Did you see whether he was wearing glasses?
23 A. Yes, he was wearing glasses.
24 Q. Did he have a thick frame on those glasses?
25 A. I don't know that.
1 Q. Did you notice what kind of clothing he was
3 A. No, but on television, I saw him in civilian
5 Q. So you didn't notice what clothing he had
6 on. How long did the car stand there while Nenad
7 Santic got in?
8 A. Just for a minute.
9 Q. Maybe less than a minute, just for Nenad
10 Santic to get on?
11 A. No, it wasn't less than a minute.
12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] All these
13 questions, are you contesting the fact that Kordic was
14 in Santici, or what?
15 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
16 Honour. Mr. Kordic was not in Santici. That is our
18 If I may proceed?
19 Q. Mr. U, your first statement was given a year
20 and six months after all these events, on the 17th of
21 October, 1994. I assume you remember that?
22 A. Up to a point.
23 Q. You said, describing this event, quite
24 contrary to what you said today, that Dario Kordic was
25 wearing a camouflage uniform with an HVO patch on his
2 A. No, what I said today is correct.
3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
4 unfortunately I only have this single copy of that
5 statement; but if necessary, if you think it is
6 necessary, I should like to show the witness this
7 statement so he can read himself what he said and what
8 he signed.
9 JUDGE MAY: You can read out to him that he
10 said that Mr. Kordic was in a camouflage uniform, and
11 he says that that's wrong. Now, is there anything else
12 that you want to put in the statement?
13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes. I'll
14 come to that immediately.
15 Q. Speaking about this event, you just said that
16 you saw Mr. Dario Kordic and Nenad Santic, didn't you?
17 But when you made this first statement, and that is the
18 second reason why I wish to show it to you, you said
19 that Mr. Kordic was with Nenad Santic and Slavica
21 A. I must have been confused, because I saw
22 Slavica Josipovic on television that night with
24 Q. I understand what you said, but I have to
25 tell you that in this statement, there is no mixup.
1 You then said that Dario Kordic and Slavica entered his
3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I can read
4 out the whole sentence, if Your Honours permit. Shall
5 I read the whole sentence?
6 JUDGE MAY: Unless it adds anything to what
7 you've put to the witness -- you've put what the
8 statement says; the witness says that he was confused.
9 I don't know that we can take it, really, very much
10 further than that.
11 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I understand,
12 Your Honours, with respect, but I believe that from
13 this context, you will also see whether this is a
14 confusion of some sort or something else. That is why
15 I thought it would be better if I read it out.
16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Read the statement, then.
17 But before you do, have the Prosecution got
18 the passage? You have?
19 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. We have that
20 one, and I think there is also --
21 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] So it is
22 page 6 in the English version, I believe.
23 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. We do have it,
24 and there is also a correcting later statement in which
25 this statement was corrected.
1 JUDGE MAY: Very well. If necessary, you can
2 deal with that.
3 You can read the sentence now,
4 Mr. Naumovski.
5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Here it is: "Dario Kordic was with Nenad
7 Santic and Slavica Josipovic. Slavica used to work for
8 the HVO headquarters in Vitez. As I passed by, I
9 greeted Nenad Santic, because we had to greet him.
10 Dario Kordic was in a camouflage union [as interpreted]
11 with an HVO flash. Slavica was in civilian clothes.
12 Dario Kordic and Slavica entered his car and drove
14 Now I've read the whole context.
15 A. I just told you a moment ago that I was mixed
17 Q. So what you say here is not true?
18 A. What is true is that I saw Dario Kordic with
19 Nenad Santic; that is, that Nenad Santic boarded his
20 car and they drove away together. That is true, and I
21 don't know what else.
22 Q. So you're denying what I've just read to you?
23 A. No, I'm not denying, but I was confused at
24 the time and --
25 JUDGE MAY: There is no need to say anything
1 more about this. You have put the matter. The witness
2 has answered it. The matter is now plain. Let us move
4 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise,
5 Your Honours.
6 Q. Speaking about Mrs. Slavica Josipovic,
7 Slavica Josipovic was one of the prominent members of
8 the HVO in Vitez. Were you aware of that?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you know that Slavica Josipovic is, at
11 present, a member of the presidency of the HVO -- of
12 the HDZ in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
13 A. I used to see her, yes.
14 Q. Let us move on to another topic, and that is
15 on to Bruno, Leonard Santic, a couple of questions.
16 If I understand the statement properly, I
17 mean, the statement which was made in December 1998 in
18 the presentation of Mr. Patrick Lopez-Terres, this
19 Bruno Santic was a little bit older than you, wasn't
21 A. Yes. I think four years my senior.
22 Q. Well, not really a little bit, but if you say
23 "four," then it's four?
24 A. Yes. Yes, four.
25 Q. You told us today -- let us not repeat all
1 that -- what unit he belonged to and so on and so
2 forth. Did he also mention to you that he was also a
3 member of the Busovaca Brigade, because that was his
4 position there?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And apart from that flash which you say was
7 an HV, was his uniform in any way different from his
8 brother's uniform, Leonard?
9 A. No. Uniforms are the same, it's only that
10 the flashes were different.
11 Q. But we shall agree that, as you say, Leonard
12 was a member of the Busovaca Brigade, the HVO Brigade
13 in Busovaca?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And Bruno Susnja -- no. There I go once
16 again. Bruno Santic, you were on friendly terms with
17 him? You were friends for a long time?
18 A. Yes. We were friends for a long time.
19 Q. So you must know that he never was in the HV?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. But was he absent from home for a long time
22 so that you would know?
23 A. Well, we were not all that close to keep
24 visiting one another all the time.
25 Q. You told us today that only he was with that
1 unit and that his brother wasn't. Is that so?
2 A. He told me that he was with Kordic's special
3 unit and that his brother wasn't.
4 Q. When you made this statement a year and a
5 half after the events that I spoke about earlier, on
6 the same page in the English version you also said that
7 the two of them told you the whole story about that.
8 A. Yes. Yes. His brother was with him when he
9 told me that.
10 Q. What I wanted to tell you is that what you
11 said explicitly then was that Leonard was also a member
12 of that unit together with his brother.
13 A. No, only Bruno was a member.
14 Q. But you agree that you said earlier what I've
15 just read to you?
16 A. I'm sorry, I have no answer to that.
17 JUDGE MAY: He's agreed with it. Yes, let's
18 move on.
19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
20 Q. About six years and six months have elapsed
21 more or less since the events that you spoke about.
22 In conclusion, referring to what you heard on
23 the radio, you said that Mr. Kordic was saying
24 something about the war but that you didn't really get
25 his meaning, did you?
1 A. No. I did understand what he said, that the
2 Muslims and the Croats could not go on living together
3 anymore. That is one thing I understood very well.
4 Q. But could you please define it closer? When
5 did you hear it said?
6 A. I can't.
7 Q. But what year was it?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Where were you when you heard that?
10 A. At home.
11 Q. So it was before the war?
12 A. I wouldn't really know when but I was at
14 Q. Witness U, I must say this: You gave five
15 statements. You also testified in the Blaskic case,
16 which makes it the sixth time. This is the first time
17 today that you are mentioning that Mr. Kordic ever said
18 something on the radio. You never mentioned that
20 A. True. I did not deem it all that important,
21 but now it turns out that it is very important.
22 Q. Yes, I know, but I also must tell you that
23 when you made your first statement, you were asked to
24 speak about relevant things and you immediately told
25 them all that you knew about Mr. Kordic. At that time,
1 of course, your memory was much fresher than now, six
2 years later.
3 A. Well, maybe not. Maybe now I'm beginning to
4 get a clear picture of it all.
5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
6 Your Honours, for your patience. I have no more
7 questions. I should also like to thank the witness.
8 Re-examined by Mr. Scott:
9 Q. Witness U, when your further statement was
10 taken on approximately the 15th of December of last
11 year, 1998 -- and I'll have to ask, obviously, for this
12 to be translated to you rather than show it to you, the
13 copy I have is English -- do you remember giving a
14 statement at that time and now I'm quoting: "During my
15 first interview, I had mentioned that Slavica
16 Josipovic, Nenad Santic's sister, was there. Today I
17 no longer remember whether she was. However, I do
18 remember very well that on that same evening or on the
19 day after the meeting, I saw Kordic, Santic, and
20 Slavica Josipovic together in a televised report
21 covering a demonstration which had taken place in
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you also say, on the 15th of December
25 last year, that: "During my preceding interview, it
1 was mistakenly stated that Bruno's brother, Leonard,
2 was also a member of the special unit. Leonard was
3 only a member of the HVO forces in Busovaca. I have
4 not had any further contact with Bruno and his family
5 since I left Santici."
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. SCOTT: No further questions, Your
9 JUDGE MAY: Witness U, that concludes your
10 evidence and you are released. Thank you for coming to
11 the International Tribunal to give evidence.
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
13 JUDGE MAY: Just wait a moment and then you
14 can go.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 MR. NICE: The next witness is going to be
17 taken by Mr. Lopez-Terres. Here he is.
18 Just before we part from the last witness, as
19 the Chamber knows, witnesses -- Croat witnesses of the
20 type referred to by the last witness are not generally
21 available to us for obvious reasons. I mention that
22 because, of course, at some stage the Chamber may, and
23 I don't know what the court's provisional attitude is
24 going to be, but it may be thinking of calling
25 witnesses on its own account, and such witnesses may or
1 may not be more amenable to the summons of the Trial
2 Chamber than they are to the Prosecution.
3 JUDGE MAY: Speaking of myself, I wasn't, but
4 no doubt it can be considered.
5 There was the matter which you wanted to
6 raise before we start on the next witness.
7 MR. NICE: Yes. I understand the Chamber
8 would prefer to deal with it at 9.15 tomorrow morning.
9 I can make it at 9.15 tomorrow morning, although I have
10 to see someone at I think half past 9.00 and a hearing
11 in the other Chamber at 10.00. If because of the hour
12 and knowing that it takes five minutes to change from
13 one mode to another the Chamber would rather take the
14 ex parte matter now, I'm in the Chamber's hands. What
15 I have to say is, I think, very short, it's just a
16 question of having the arrangements made for the
17 ex parte hearing to be properly recorded.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE MAY: Rather than start on the witness
20 for quarter of an hour, since we're not sitting this
21 afternoon, it may be more convenient to deal with the
22 ex parte matter now.
23 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE MAY: Before we do, Mr. Kovacic.
25 MR. KOVACIC: May I address the Court this
1 one sentence please?
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
3 MR. KOVACIC: You put me some questions after
4 my cross-examination of the witness. I would just like
5 to point out to the Prosecution's brief, the title is
6 "Prosecution's Overview of Witnesses," dated May 1999,
7 where the summaries for each witness are provided. You
8 remember that. On page 10, under number 129, there is
9 specification to which item of the indictment this
10 witness corresponds.
11 There is no -- this is not related to the
12 counts which are related to my client. So it is
13 even -- the Prosecutor, at least in this paper, does
14 not see the relation with that evidence to the
16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. That's a matter we
17 can deal with in due course.
18 Yes. Now, unless there's anything else, we'd
19 invite -- it may be easier if we rise for five
20 minutes. We'll rise for five minutes and the court can
21 be rearranged.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
23 at 12.46 p.m., to be reconvened on
24 Wednesday, the 24th day of November,
25 1999 at 9:30 a.m.