Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10276

1 Wednesday, 24th November, 1999

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

6 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecution versus Dario

7 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Lopez-Terres.

9 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

10 Mr. President, the next witness is Major Angus Hay.

11 JUDGE MAY: Are we ready to call him?

12 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] The

13 witness, yes, is waiting.

14 JUDGE MAY: While we are waiting for him, I

15 notice that some of the evidence which he gives is

16 purely corroborative of other evidence. I have in

17 mind, Mr. Lopez-Terres, paragraphs 12 to 18, which deal

18 with the meeting between Colonel Stewart and

19 Colonel Blaskic concerning Ahmici; paragraphs 35 to 46,

20 which relate to the Convoy of Joy; and paragraphs 53 to

21 64, which deal with the attack on Grbavica. Perhaps

22 you could take those matters fairly shortly.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the

25 declaration.

Page 10277


2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

4 truth.

5 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you'd like to sit

6 down.

7 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, if I may. We

8 have previously informed counsel for the Prosecution

9 that we do not object to the Prosecution leading this

10 witness with respect to all paragraphs, except for, in

11 the case of Mr. Kordic, paragraphs 30 to 34. Thank

12 you.

13 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 MR. KOVACIC: We do the same, and we only ask

16 to avoid leading questions related to the paragraphs 19

17 to 27.

18 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes,

19 Mr. Lopez-Terres.

20 Examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:

21 Q. You are Major Angus Hay, born in 1967?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You joined the British army in 1983, did

24 you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 10278

1 Q. In the end of April 1993, when you were a

2 Captain with the British army, you were attached to the

3 Prince of Wales Regiment, which had -- which arrived at

4 the time to Central Bosnia?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You succeeded Captain Matthew Dundas-Whatley,

7 who came from the Cheshire Regiment; is that so?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You discharged the duties of the liaison

10 officer with the Prince of Wales Regiment; is that so?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. At that time, you were based at the British

13 Battalion compound which was in Nova Bila?

14 A. That's right, yes.

15 Q. In the beginning of your work, your area of

16 responsibility included Busovaca, Vitez, Zenica Novi

17 Travnik, Travnik, and Turbe; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And shortly it transpired that this area of

20 responsibility was too large for one liaison officer,

21 so in June 1993 that area was divided, was partitioned,

22 and you became responsible for Travnik, Novi Travnik,

23 and Turbe; is that correct?

24 A. That's right.

25 Q. The area of Vitez itself was the

Page 10279

1 responsibility of Captain Lee Whitworth; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In the initial days when you took over,

5 Captain Dundas-Whatley introduced you to various

6 commanders in Central Bosnia and you also visited those

7 individuals?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. In the course of this visit, you had an

10 opportunity of meeting with Colonel Blaskic, who was

11 responsible for the Central Bosnian Operative Zone, and

12 you also were told that Mario Cerkez was the commander

13 of the local brigade in Vitez and that Colonel Blaskic

14 was his superior?

15 A. That's right, yes.

16 Q. You were with Colonel Stewart when you met

17 Colonel Blaskic, and it was after the events in

18 Ahmici. Now, could you tell us: How did

19 Colonel Blaskic react when Colonel Stewart spoke to him

20 about the events in Ahmici?

21 A. The first time that I was introduced to

22 Colonel Blaskic by Captain Dundas-Whatley followed the

23 immediate aftermath of Ahmici. We were in the throes

24 of our handover/takeover at the time, and during the

25 course of the meeting, Colonel Bob Stewart, who was

Page 10280

1 commander of the Cheshire BritBat at the time, came

2 into the meeting, sort of crashed into the meeting, and

3 he was quite emotional, and he started -- or I do

4 recall him saying to Colonel Blaskic, "Tihomir, you're

5 going to have to answer for what's happened in Ahmici,"

6 to which Colonel Blaskic, as I recall, didn't really

7 respond, didn't say anything.

8 Q. We're still in May 1993. At that time, you

9 were asked to accompany two U.N. representatives who

10 were visiting the area of Vitez and Busovaca and

11 conducting investigations about what had happened in

12 Ahmici?

13 A. That's right, yes.

14 Q. And with these U.N. representatives, you went

15 to Colonel Blaskic's headquarters in the Vitez Hotel

16 and, once again, the question about what had been done

17 in Ahmici was raised. Could you briefly tell us: How

18 did Colonel Blaskic respond or react when he was asked

19 questions about the incident -- about the attacks in

20 Ahmici by those United Nations representatives?

21 A. When we visited -- when I visited

22 Colonel Blaskic again with the two U.N.

23 representatives, Colonel Blaskic denied all

24 responsibility, as I recall, and said at the same time

25 that he had instigated his own investigation into the

Page 10281

1 events surrounding the tragedy at Ahmici.

2 Q. You were in Central Bosnia until November

3 1993. During that time, were you advised about the

4 results of any investigation conducted by the HVO and

5 the arrest or perhaps -- about the arrest of the

6 perpetrators of the attack on Ahmici or perhaps whether

7 they had been brought to justice?

8 A. No. As far as I was told, as far as I

9 remember, there was no results from those

10 investigations that Colonel Blaskic said he was going

11 to conduct.

12 Q. Major Hay, you do not remember, do you, the

13 names of the two United Nations investigators, do you?

14 But I should like to show you some photographs so that

15 you could tell us if you can again recognise either of

16 the two U.N. representatives in these photographs, whom

17 you escorted. It is photographs 1576.1, 1576.3.

18 Could you please have a look at those

19 photographs.

20 A. As I said, I can't remember their names, and

21 I can't remember the 1576.1 and 2, but I do remember

22 the individual in 1576.3 and 1576.4. As I say, I can't

23 remember his name, but I do recall him, recall that he

24 was one of them.

25 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I should

Page 10282

1 like to draw the attention of the Chamber that

2 photographs 1576.1 and 2 are the photographs of Payam

3 Akhavan, who already testified in this case, and the

4 other two photographs show the second investigator,

5 Thomas Osario.

6 JUDGE MAY: I don't anticipate there is any

7 dispute about any of this, yes. So let's move on.

8 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

9 Q. Major Hay, after your visit to Colonel

10 Blaskic, you escorted these two representatives to the

11 headquarters of the Vitez brigade, and there you met

12 Mario Cerkez?

13 A. That's right, yes.

14 Q. Who was present in Mario Cerkez's office when

15 you came to see him?

16 A. As we arrive -- as we arrived, I remember in

17 the back of the room that there was an individual whom

18 I came to know as Darko Kraljevic.

19 Q. During that meeting, did perhaps the presence

20 of that person appear intimidating or threatening to

21 you or to the representatives of the United Nations?

22 A. The two representatives from the United

23 Nations were exceedingly apprehensive and unsettled by

24 his presence, yes.

25 Q. Do you remember how that man whom you

Page 10283

1 identify as Darko Kraljevic was dressed? What was he

2 wearing?

3 A. As I recall, he was in dark clothing and --

4 as a lot of people tended to be out there, but even he

5 more so, sort of armed to the hilt, basically; very

6 overtly armed and very intimidating. And I think

7 that's why the United Nations representatives found it

8 all the more overbearing.

9 Q. Were you and the U.N. investigators told why

10 Darko Kraljevic was present at that meeting?

11 A. No, I wasn't.

12 Q. You were the one who organised that meeting,

13 weren't you, at the time, when asked to do so by the

14 U.N. investigators?

15 A. Yes, I believe I did. I would have made it a

16 day in advance or a couple of days in advance.

17 Q. Do you remember inviting Darko Kraljevic to

18 the meeting?

19 A. No. I didn't even know who that individual

20 was at the time.

21 Q. And were the investigators who were with you

22 who could have invited Darko Kraljevic to attend the

23 meeting?

24 A. No, they wouldn't have known who he was

25 either.

Page 10284

1 Q. What do you think, who invited Darko

2 Kraljevic to attend the meeting?

3 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I think that is

4 really too leading.

5 JUDGE MAY: Major, do you have any idea about

6 that, or not? When I say "idea," do you have any

7 knowledge, as opposed to speculation?

8 A. No, I don't.

9 JUDGE MAY: No? Thank you.

10 Let's move on.

11 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

12 Q. I should now like to show you two

13 photographs, Major Hay. Could you please tell us if

14 you recognise the person on these two photographs.

15 This is Z1680,1 and 2.

16 A. That's Darko Kraljevic.

17 And that's him again.

18 Q. And it is that individual whom you saw in

19 Mario Cerkez's office during the meeting that we are

20 talking about?

21 A. Yes, sir.

22 Q. During that meeting, the question of Ahmici

23 was raised. Could you tell us, what was Mario Cerkez's

24 response when he was asked about his possible

25 responsibility for the acts committed in Ahmici?

Page 10285

1 A. He denied any involvement in Ahmici

2 altogether, and indeed actually turned around and said

3 it was probably the BiH that did it themselves in order

4 that the HVO would get the blame. But then he did say

5 afterwards he would conduct his own investigation as

6 well, or initiate an investigation.

7 Q. After that meeting with Mario Cerkez and

8 Darko Kraljevic, did you have an opportunity to meet --

9 to see Darko Kraljevic again?

10 A. Bearing in mind that at the time, my area of

11 responsibility was going to be handed over sort of in

12 the succeeding couple of weeks, but -- during my tour

13 around Vitez and visits to Mario Cerkez's office,

14 again, I do remember seeing that individual in and

15 around the area of the cinema on a couple of occasions,

16 yes.

17 Q. By "cinema," you mean the headquarters of

18 Mario Cerkez, is it?

19 A. That's right, yes.

20 Q. And after that visit to Colonel Blaskic and

21 Mario Cerkez, did you accompany U.N. investigators when

22 they met with other authorities in Central Bosnia, and

23 in particular with Dario Kordic?

24 A. No, I didn't.

25 Q. During the exercise of your duty and while

Page 10286

1 you were responsible for the area of Novi Travnik, you

2 also came across the name of Jozo Leutar, who was

3 placed in charge of that area by the HVO?

4 A. That's right. He was the local commander in

5 Travnik. He took over from a chap who was there when I

6 first arrived, who I cannot recall his name.

7 Q. Before you were posted to this new area, you

8 already had an opportunity of going to Busovaca and

9 also meeting with local commanders there?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It was Mr. Grubesic, was it?

12 A. He was the -- he was the local commander in

13 Busovaca, yes.

14 Q. Do you happen to remember what that gentleman

15 was wearing when you met him?

16 A. I do recall that he used to be predominantly

17 dressed in black; black overalls, if I remember

18 rightly.

19 Q. And you also had an opportunity of meeting

20 Dario Kordic. Could you please describe the

21 circumstances under which that happened? In Busovaca,

22 wasn't it?

23 A. It was when I was giving -- I use the term

24 "office call" to the -- Grubesic in Busovaca, and

25 Dario Kordic arrived with two individuals, came into

Page 10287

1 the office, and I think it was just for introductions,

2 really, to meet me. I wasn't aware of the meeting

3 beforehand or anything. But we were introduced on that

4 occasion.

5 Q. You said that Dario Kordic arrived there with

6 two persons. Could you tell us, who, or rather what

7 were those two persons?

8 A. I presumed, from the way that they were

9 dressed and the fact that Dario Kordic certainly didn't

10 overtly carry any weapons, that they were -- I

11 interpreted them to be bodyguards, basically.

12 Q. And do you remember what Dario Kordic was

13 wearing on that first occasion when you met?

14 A. He was in uniform, in sort of -- in HVO

15 uniform. But I do recall that he had a wooden cross

16 around his -- around his neck.

17 Q. When Dario Kordic came to that office in

18 Busovaca, you did not really know what he was, did you?

19 A. No. But he certainly had a -- had a

20 presence, certainly, to the -- to the rest of the HVO

21 sort of soldiers around him. They obviously held him

22 in some regard.

23 Q. But did you notice anything in particular,

24 how he behaved, how he treated -- how they treated

25 Dario Kordic?

Page 10288

1 A. With respect.

2 Q. Could you briefly tell us about the second

3 occasion when you saw Dario Kordic?

4 A. It was not long after this event, and we had

5 been invited to a cabin just to the sort of south --

6 south-west, south-east, I can't remember -- of

7 Busovaca, way up a track. And it was really a social

8 event, and it was really the first occasion for the new

9 commander of BritBat, Colonel Alastair Duncan, to meet

10 the local sort of Croat leaders, HVO commanders, in and

11 around the Lasva Valley.

12 At that meeting there was Colonel Blaskic

13 with his wife; there was Dario Kordic with his two

14 people, two bodyguards, basically, if I remember; there

15 was Grubesic from Busovaca with another individual whom

16 I cannot remember; there was Colonel Duncan with his

17 interpreter; myself and my interpreter; and a couple of

18 individuals from Vitez in civilian clothes. Santic was

19 there, if I remember rightly, and, as I say, a couple

20 of other local dignitaries, councillors or whatever

21 they were. I cannot remember their names.

22 Q. We shall now move on to another incident

23 which happened somewhat later, that is, in June

24 1993, about something at the time was called the Convoy

25 of Joy. Just in a few words, Major, can you tell us

Page 10289

1 what did you establish about the circumstances under

2 which the convoy was diverted?

3 A. It was no secret that there was a convoy

4 coming up, as we called it then, at Route Diamond, and

5 it was apprehended, stopped at the Novi Travnik -- Novi

6 Travnik sort of junction into Novi Travnik by women

7 with sort of sticks and goodness knows what. They

8 stopped the whole convoy.

9 We were aware of it, but our mandate

10 prevented us from doing anything at that time, and

11 unfortunately we were sort of caught between a brick

12 and a hard place, or a rock and a hard place, and as

13 soon as it stopped, a number of drivers were dragged,

14 taken out of their cabs and allegedly shot

15 straightaway. I didn't see it, but a couple of the

16 BritBat soldiers said they couldn't believe it, and

17 they had witnessed it.

18 Immediately following that there was a bit of

19 an all-for-one spree as the locals came out of the

20 woodwork, basically, and started stripping a lot of the

21 trucks and taking goods left, right, and centre. And a

22 couple of trucks, individuals trucks, were taken away,

23 were driven off by Croats or HVO soldiers, I don't

24 remember which, but certainly I saw a number of people

25 in civilian clothing just having a free-for-all, just

Page 10290

1 helping themselves.

2 Q. Were you able to see the presence of people

3 in uniform near the convoy at the moment when it was

4 being diverted?

5 A. Yes. There were a number of supposedly HVO

6 soldiers in and around the area, and I remember asking

7 them, can't they stop it. They said they could not,

8 you know, they were powerless against the women. I

9 would suggest, rather, they would not.

10 Q. Do you remember whether HVO soldiers were

11 overpowered by members of your regiment on this

12 occasion?

13 A. Sorry, could you say that again?

14 Q. Do you remember whether HVO soldiers were

15 beaten by soldiers belonging to your regiment?

16 A. No, not beaten by --

17 Q. Killed. Were they killed?

18 A. Yes. They -- the convoy was eventually

19 allowed to move on again. A semblance of order was

20 established, and we led the convoy through the Lasva

21 Valley past Vitez. But en route towards Nova Bila, I

22 heard that a couple of HVO soldiers had taken an RPG

23 and came out to the lead Warrior vehicle.

24 JUDGE MAY: You have to tell us what an RPG

25 is.

Page 10291

1 A. Rocket-propelled grenade. And in

2 self-defence they engaged the two individuals and

3 killed them, I believe. But the convoy came to a halt,

4 and again it came under fire from the sort of Croat

5 community or HVO soldiers, and again a number of

6 vehicles were stolen and a number of individuals, I

7 think, were wounded in that encounter.

8 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

9 Q. If I may comment regarding the translation.

10 My question was whether the soldiers were killed, not

11 beaten, as was translated, and this caused some

12 confusion with the witness. The French word used

13 was"abattoir," "killed," and not "beaten."

14 In your zone of responsibility, from

15 September 1993 until you left, you were able to notice

16 that the warring parties had established a kind of wall

17 consisting of big boards that separated the two

18 opposing forces from the north-east of Novi Travnik to

19 the south-west of Novi Travnik.

20 A. That's right, yes. There was a dividing line

21 all the way down through the centre of Novi Travnik

22 that divided the ethnic groups, sort of the Muslims and

23 the Croat/Serbs.

24 Q. Do you remember that passing close to this

25 area you were able to note that there were a certain

Page 10292

1 number of individuals digging trenches with tools,

2 under the control of HVO soldiers?

3 A. Yes, I do. It was as I was driving through

4 the line of conflict to get -- to go up and see the

5 local BiH commander. I do recall seeing some

6 individual civilians digging trenches, yes.

7 Q. They were indeed under the control of HVO

8 soldiers wearing uniform?

9 A. Yes, they were.

10 Q. Do you also remember that as you were passing

11 close to this group, HVO soldiers tried to conceal

12 these persons who were digging trenches from sight so

13 that you wouldn't see them?

14 A. That's right. As I drove past, they sort of

15 quickly got them down and tried to usher them out of

16 sight.

17 Q. You noticed on the chests and back of the

18 people digging trenches certain objects that looked

19 rather strange to you?

20 A. That's right. As I drove past and as they

21 were being ushered out of sight, I recall seeing they

22 did have something that was very unusual strapped to

23 them, strapped to their backs and their sort of torso.

24 I wasn't going to hang around; I was sort of crossing

25 an active front line, and I drove through.

Page 10293

1 On visiting the local BiH commander, Beslim

2 Zurapi, I put this to him, asked him what was going on,

3 and he confirmed, yes, that they had explosive devices

4 attached to them and that they were digging trenches

5 for the HVO.

6 I asked who they were, and I presumed that

7 they were Muslim, but given his indifference and his

8 response in which he said, "If they're digging trenches

9 for the HVO, then we will just shoot them," I didn't

10 think he would shoot his own side, so I drew a

11 conclusion from that that they were possibly Serbs, but

12 they were certainly doing it under duress.

13 Q. The persons who were digging the trenches

14 were exposed to fire from the BH army, weren't they?

15 A. Yes, from what I could see as I drove

16 through. But moreover, Beslim Zurapi confirmed that

17 and said, "Yes, we can see them digging the trenches

18 and we will shoot them."

19 Q. You noticed that there were wires coming out

20 of these objects on the chest and the back of these

21 people?

22 A. Yes. That was all part of the -- as I drove

23 past, that's one of the bits that sort of stuck out,

24 that drew my attention to it. It was if they were sort

25 of -- wires come back into the buildings, basically.

Page 10294

1 Q. Did you have occasion, roughly at the same

2 time, to discuss these matters with the local HVO

3 commander, Zeljko Sabljic?

4 A. Yes, I did, and he denied it. He denied all

5 knowledge.

6 Q. Around the 8th of September, 1993, Major, you

7 were at your camp in Nova Bila when a neighbouring

8 village known as Grbavica was attacked. Could you, in

9 a few words, tell us what you saw in the course of that

10 attack, in a few words?

11 A. The assault started with suppressive fire,

12 with indirect or, rather, direct anti-tank weapon fire

13 and heavy machine-gun fire, and then it followed the

14 sequence of an infantry assault as the soldiers came

15 through and swept through the village, just clearing

16 the whole village. They also were assisted with their

17 own improvised weaponry, notably a system called the

18 BeBe, which is sort of a fire extinguisher packed with

19 explosives and launched from an improvised launcher,

20 which was quite destructive in its own right, and they

21 cleared the whole village, basically.

22 As far as I'm concerned, there were BiH

23 soldiers in there, notably a sniper in the house above

24 our officers' mess in Nova Bila, so it could be

25 construed as a legitimate military target, but the

Page 10295

1 offshoot of that was as well that the Croat families

2 were moved in to occupy houses that still were standing

3 at the end of it.

4 Q. I should like to show you a document, Major.

5 It is a photograph with the reference number Z2036,

6 2036.

7 This photograph, does it show the device that

8 you have described to us that was known as a BeBe?

9 Could you show it to us, please?

10 A. That there [indicates] is a launcher for the

11 BeBe. A bit of imagination is required, but basically

12 you just stuff the fire extinguisher in the top there,

13 and there is an explosive primer in the bottom and it

14 launches it a distance of a couple hundred yards.

15 Probably a maximum of 300 yards.

16 Q. You yourself took this photograph, didn't

17 you, Major?

18 A. Yes, I did.

19 Q. This type of launchers for BeBes, were they

20 widespread in the region of Novi Travnik where you were

21 on duty?

22 A. I wouldn't just say Novi Travnik. They were

23 used throughout the Lasva Valley. I wouldn't like to

24 say how many there were. They weren't common, but they

25 were around.

Page 10296

1 Q. You said that the village of Grbavica was

2 cleansed by the HVO. Was it originally a military

3 target?

4 JUDGE MAY: The witness has given his view

5 about that, explained that there was a sniper there.

6 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

7 Q. I wanted to specify the following: The

8 cleansing of that village, did it appear to you, as a

9 military man, to be justified by purely military

10 goals?

11 A. It could be considered a military target,

12 yes, in my opinion.

13 Q. The destruction effected in the village, did

14 it all affect military targets only?

15 A. No, it didn't. The feature itself was a

16 military target, but then what ensued afterwards, i.e.,

17 the wanton -- the burning and destruction of everything

18 that was in there, basically, less a few houses, then

19 that went beyond the call of military requirements.

20 Q. In the course of October 1993, Major, you had

21 occasion around October to visit General Alagic in

22 Travnik in his headquarters?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You noticed in the basement of these

25 headquarters the presence of HVO prisoners. Could you

Page 10297

1 tell us what condition they appeared to be in?

2 A. Yes, they were in reasonable fettle, given

3 the fact that they were prisoners of war, but they were

4 being looked after, and they didn't -- there was

5 nothing untoward that I recall.

6 Q. Had you announced your visit to General

7 Alagic beforehand?

8 A. No, he was unaware that I would be arriving,

9 and it just came up during our meeting. And he took me

10 down at my request and just showed me around, and

11 during then is when I was introduced to the prisoners

12 of war.

13 Q. In the course of October '93, in the region

14 of Novi Travnik, you noticed an increase in the

15 frequency of attacks by BH army forces, and especially

16 the shelling of the HVO headquarters in Novi Travnik?

17 A. That's right, yes.

18 Q. You also noted the presence or you heard talk

19 of the presence of the 7th Muslim Brigade, the name

20 that had been given to it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In that brigade, there was a special unit

23 composed of elements considered to be alien to the

24 region, commonly known as the Mujahedin?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 10298

1 Q. This unit was stationed in the village of

2 Bandol, wasn't it?

3 A. From the information that we had, and as I

4 recall, that's where we believed that they sort of had

5 established themselves, yes.

6 Q. Were you personally witness of an attack by

7 this unit, and under which circumstances?

8 A. It -- I can't remember the date; it was

9 towards the end of our tour. And the -- following the

10 increase in frequency of attacks, and shelling of the

11 HVO headquarters in Novi Travnik, just to the south of

12 Novi Travnik -- I can't remember the name of the place

13 at the moment -- again, on the main road or the main

14 supply route that we had from Gornji Vakuf, we called

15 it Route Diamond, a couple of miles just south of Novi

16 Travnik, the BiH or 7 Muslim Brigade were massing -- I

17 say "massing" their troops, congregating there in

18 preparation for an assault.

19 And it happened and unfortunately coincided

20 with the southward movement of two U.N. convoys -- a

21 Dutch convoy, if I remember rightly, and a UNHCR convoy

22 -- and the two met. As the 7 Muslim Brigade were

23 crossing the front line into the assault, the first

24 convoy came through, and they received some shots into

25 their vehicles; but the second convoy, unfortunately,

Page 10299

1 one of the drivers received a fatal wound to the head

2 and was killed instantly, and that vehicle crashed.

3 The rest of them carried on moving south.

4 Following that assault, I remember visiting

5 the local HVO commanders -- not Sabljic Zeljko, but

6 actually on the front line itself -- and I personally

7 saw eight -- I was shown eight dead enemy to the HVO,

8 i.e., BiH soldiers; but furthermore, they were members

9 of the 7 Muslim Brigade, and none of them were ethnic

10 to Bosnia. They were all foreigners, either from the

11 Middle East or Africa.

12 Q. During your tour of duty in the region, you

13 were able to see that the Croats, when speaking of this

14 Mujahedin unit, were petrified?

15 A. Certainly the local soldiers around Novi

16 Travnik, yes, that's where I drew my conclusions

17 there. At the mention of them, they got -- they were

18 pretty -- pretty frightened.

19 Q. Were you informed, in the course of your

20 mission, of the atrocities committed by this Mujahedin

21 unit in your area?

22 A. No, I can't recall. I think there was --

23 there were rumours, but I never had any cause to base

24 any of it on fact, that I saw, no.

25 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

Page 10300

1 Mr. President, that ends my examination-in-chief of

2 this witness.

3 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

4 Yes, Mr. Sayers.

5 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President.

6 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers:

7 Q. Major, please let my introduce myself. My

8 name is Steve Sayers, and along with my colleague here,

9 Mr. Naumovski, we represent Dario Kordic. These

10 gentlemen are Mr. Kovacic and Mr. Mikulicic, and they

11 represent Mr. Cerkez.

12 Major, you've testified that you arrived in

13 Central Bosnia in late April, I believe?

14 A. That's right, yes.

15 Q. And you took over as a liaison officer from

16 the existing liaison officer with the Cheshires,

17 Captain Matthew Dundas-Whatley?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. Just so the record is clear, sir, you are

20 actually a member of the Gordon Highlanders, I believe,

21 and you were on detachment -- or special attachment to

22 the Prince of Wales Own Regiment of Yorkshire?

23 A. That's right, yes.

24 Q. I think you've testified about this, but let

25 me be clear, sir: Initially your area of

Page 10301

1 responsibility was extremely extensive? I think you'll

2 agree with that.

3 A. That's right, yes.

4 Q. And you came to the conclusion that it was

5 actually too much for one liaison officer to handle,

6 and you brought that to your commanding officer's

7 attention, to the attention of Lieutenant-Colonel

8 Duncan; is that correct?

9 A. That's right, yes.

10 Q. As I understand it, sir, Captain Whitworth

11 assumed your duties for the immediate area of Vitez?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. And another officer with the Prince of Wales

14 Own, Captain Bruce Cowan, took over responsibility for

15 Busovaca?

16 A. That's right, yes.

17 Q. Please forgive the pauses, but we have to let

18 the interpreters catch up, and I would appreciate it if

19 you would just give a little bit of a pause between my

20 question and the answer, and I'll try to do the same

21 for you. Thank you.

22 Would it be fair to say that in connection

23 with your duties as liaison officer, Major, after

24 Captains Whitworth and Cowan took over the Vitez and

25 the Busovaca areas, your involvement with those areas

Page 10302

1 was infrequent and only occasional?

2 A. That's -- that's correct, yes.

3 Q. In your view, sir, was Captain Dundas-Whatley

4 a knowledgeable and capable officer, well-liked by

5 local commanders and dignitaries, as far as you could

6 tell?

7 A. As far as I could tell, yes.

8 Q. He was at the end of the Cheshires' tour and

9 presumably imparted to you the knowledge that had been

10 collectively gained by that regiment during the six

11 months that they had spent in Central Bosnia, at least

12 insofar as your initial area of responsibility was

13 concerned; would that be fair to say?

14 A. Yes. Yes.

15 Q. You described meeting with the local HVO

16 military commander in Busovaca, commander Dusko

17 Grubesic. Could you tell us how many times you

18 actually met this commander, sir? If you can remember.

19 A. It wouldn't be more than --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Sayers, could you

21 please come closer to the microphone?

22 A. It -- probably -- not more than ten times.


24 Q. Excuse me, Major, I'm being told to get

25 closer to the microphone, and I think the same goes for

Page 10303

1 you. You tend to speak a little softly, so I wonder if

2 you could just speak directly into the microphone --

3 A. Okay.

4 Q. -- for the interpreters' convenience.

5 Let me just ask you a few questions in

6 connection with the view that the Prince of Wales Own

7 Regiment, and you as one of the people attached to that

8 regiment for special service, gained of the chain of

9 command of the HVO. Would it be fair to say, sir, that

10 this subject was discussed between you and your fellow

11 liaison officers in briefings that I believe the

12 commanding officer held every night?

13 A. Yes. That's right.

14 Q. You need to turn the microphone on, sir.

15 A. Sorry.

16 Okay, there we go. Sorry.

17 Yes, every evening we would have a wash-up or

18 a debrief of the day's events.

19 Q. And in the Central Bosnia area, the Central

20 Bosnia Operative Zone, at the top of the chain of

21 command was Colonel Blaskic; correct?

22 A. Top of the military, direct military chain of

23 command, I believe.

24 Q. In the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, I'm

25 talking about.

Page 10304

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And did you meet with Colonel Blaskic on a

3 regular basis?

4 A. During my initial days of handover, takeover,

5 with Captain Dundas-Whatley, I tried to visit him on a

6 daily basis, and I must have done so, probably -- give

7 or take a day here or there, obviously -- over a period

8 of -- maybe a month.

9 Q. You learned, sir, that Colonel Blaskic was a

10 professional military man with a professional military

11 background; correct?

12 A. I believe he was a former JNA officer, yes.

13 Q. Career officer in the --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. -- in the army?

16 And in his chain of command, sir, he reported

17 up the chain to the general staff of the HVO in Mostar;

18 correct?

19 A. I -- now you're talking about things I don't

20 really --

21 Q. That was a level above your area --

22 A. Yeah, I wasn't -- yeah.

23 Q. Did you ever have occasion to meet with or

24 deal with the commander of the military police

25 battalion headquartered in the Hotel Vitez?

Page 10305

1 A. Not that I was aware of, no.

2 Q. Does the name of a special-purpose unit

3 called the Vitezovi ring any familiar bells with you,

4 or is that a name that you do not recognise?

5 A. It's a name that I got to know, but after I

6 had handed over responsibility to Captain Whitworth.

7 Q. Now, the forces under Colonel Blaskic's

8 command basically consisted of, if I may describe them

9 this way, municipality-based or territorially-based

10 brigades; correct?

11 A. That was our interpretation, yes.

12 Q. And each one of these brigades had separate

13 commanders; for example, commander Grubesic in

14 Busovaca, who reported to Colonel Blaskic in the chain

15 of command; correct?

16 A. That was the interpretation, yes.

17 Q. And within the brigades, they were organised

18 into companies, and the company commanders, as you

19 would expect, reported up their chain of command to the

20 brigade commanders; correct?

21 A. That's the way I would suppose it would

22 happen, yes.

23 Q. So there's no question that Colonel Blaskic

24 had a number of these brigades under his command; he

25 also had the military police under his command, and the

Page 10306

1 special purpose units, such as the Vitezovi, which I've

2 previously described; correct?

3 A. Whether they were under his command or not, I

4 don't know. I'm sorry, I can't -- I couldn't ...

5 Q. All right. Let me turn to the first meeting

6 that you described with Colonel Blaskic, Major. This

7 was held at his headquarters, the HVO headquarters in

8 the Hotel Vitez; correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Do you recall Lieutenant-Colonel Stewart

11 coming into the meeting and saying, as you've

12 described, "Tihomir, you're going to have to answer for

13 the actions at Ahmici"; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. You have a clear recollection that this

16 provoked no reaction initially or response from

17 Colonel Blaskic; correct?

18 A. That's right. But immediately following that

19 I could -- you know, I had a sort of -- I had to get on

20 with Captain Dundas-Whatley, and we left pretty quickly

21 after that.

22 Q. Do you recall, sir, that Lieutenant-Colonel

23 Duncan was also at that meeting?

24 A. I can't, no.

25 Q. Would it be fair to say that you only ever

Page 10307

1 had one meeting with Colonel Blaskic and

2 Lieutenant-Colonel Stewart in the same room, as far as

3 you can remember?

4 A. As far as I remember, just that one occasion,

5 yes.

6 Q. Let me show you a document and see if I can

7 jog your memory as to who was there, if I may.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D130/1.

9 JUDGE MAY: You're now going to put -- this

10 is a diary, is it?

11 MR. SAYERS: Yes, sir.

12 JUDGE MAY: What is the point of putting a

13 diary from somebody else to this witness?

14 Take it back and don't mark it.

15 You can put it to the witness who made the

16 diary. There's no point putting it to somebody else

17 and asking him to comment. The witness has said he

18 doesn't recollect who else was present at the meeting.

19 MR. SAYERS: Very well.

20 Q. If I may, then, Major, I'd like show you a

21 military information summary, so-called milinfosum,

22 milinfosum number 10 from the PWO, dated May the 9th of

23 1993.

24 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be marked

25 D130/1.

Page 10308


2 Q. Major, this is a document that we received

3 last night. Does this appear to be in the regular

4 format of military information summaries that were

5 prepared by your regiment, as far as you can tell?

6 A. It looks a similar format, yes.

7 Q. Under the heading of "Vitez," Colonel [sic],

8 item number 2, it looks as if there's something missing

9 from this milinfosum. There appears to be a break in

10 the date-stamp numbers on the top right-hand corner.

11 The page is 61298. The second page appears to be

12 61302. So it looks like there were a couple of pages

13 missing. There's also a reference to a meeting with

14 Mr. Cerkez on this day. Did you attend that meeting,

15 sir?

16 A. I have to say -- I'm sorry -- if we're going

17 into specific days now, I cannot remember accurately

18 from one day to the next.

19 Q. That's fair enough, Major. I'd just like to

20 draw your attention to one entry on the second page, up

21 on the top paragraph.

22 The military information officer in the POW

23 [sic], I take it, was Captain Harrison?

24 A. That's right, yes.

25 Q. And would it be fair to say that

Page 10309

1 Captain Harrison compiled these reports not based upon

2 his own personal knowledge but based upon what liaison

3 officers --

4 A. That's right, yes.

5 Q. -- communicated to him? All right. A

6 reference is made to a fairly heated discussion between

7 representatives of the warring factions, and it is

8 communicated to the military information officer that

9 both sides implicitly acknowledge that their soldiers

10 had conducted ethnic cleansing. Do you --

11 JUDGE MAY: I don't see this. Where are we

12 reading from, please?

13 MR. SAYERS: It's page 61302, Your Honour,

14 and it's the second sentence before the end of the

15 first paragraph on that page. The top paragraph.

16 Q. I don't mean to spring this on you

17 unannounced, Major, but would it be fair to say that

18 both the HVO and the ABiH, during your tour of duty in

19 the Central Bosnia area, basically acknowledged that

20 both of their -- that soldiers under their command had

21 conducted ethnic cleansing?

22 A. I cannot recall, but I wouldn't say it didn't

23 happen.

24 Q. That's fair enough, sir. Let's move on.

25 In connection with the questions that you

Page 10310

1 were asked on direct-examination, sir, regarding

2 whether an investigation had produced any results, an

3 investigation into the events at Ahmici, were you aware

4 that Colonel Blaskic had actually asked

5 Lieutenant-Colonel Stewart to put together a

6 multi-lateral commission consisting of representatives

7 not only of the HVO but also of the ABiH, the Muslim

8 side, and also the ECMM and BritBat, to do a joint

9 investigation into the events at Ahmici? Were you

10 aware of that?

11 A. No. I can't -- no. I wasn't privy to that.

12 Q. Were you aware, sir, that the investigators

13 that you escorted in May of 1993, while they were

14 conducting an investigation themselves on behalf of the

15 U.N. Centre for Human Rights, I believe, into the

16 events at Ahmici, were you aware that they had actually

17 identified four individuals whom they had determined to

18 have participated in the events at Ahmici on

19 April the 16th, 1993?

20 A. I'm -- no, I cannot recall. I wasn't privy

21 to their sort of findings or anything. They were out

22 there purely investigating at the time. I wasn't privy

23 to their findings or anything.

24 Q. All right. Do you recall being present, sir,

25 at a meeting held on May the 13th, 1993, at which were

Page 10311

1 present Lieutenant-Colonel Duncan and three political

2 figures from Vitez: Anto Valenta, the Deputy President

3 of the HVO or vice-president of the HVO, accompanied by

4 Ivica Santic and Pero Skopljak?

5 A. I'm sure I was present at the meeting. I

6 can't specifically recall it.

7 Q. Let me just see if I can show you a document

8 that may or may not jog your memory. It's a milinfosum

9 that was prepared about that meeting on that day?

10 A. All right.

11 Q. Milinfosum number 14.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D131/1.


14 Q. Appearing on the first item on this

15 milinfosum is a description of the meeting that I

16 discussed, with Mr. Valenta. Does this jog your memory

17 as to whether you attended such a meeting, sir?

18 A. During the initial days of handover, I

19 attended so many meetings; I'm sorry, I can't recall

20 this specific one. There was so much going on at the

21 time really.

22 Q. The contemporaneous notes that were prepared

23 by your CO reflect that there was -- May the 13th began

24 with a trip to the Vitez Hotel with Angus Hay to meet

25 Valenta?

Page 10312

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The military information summary, I assume,

3 accurately summarised what Mr. Valenta told you and

4 your commanding officer at the --

5 A. That would have been the case, yes.

6 Q. You see a reference, sir, to the 7th Muslim

7 Brigade of the 3rd Corps of the ABiH. I think that you

8 concluded your tour with some discussion of the

9 7th Muslim Brigade. Would it be fair to say that you

10 heard expressions of concern regarding the activities

11 of this unit throughout your tour?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

14 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

15 Just a comment, Mr. President. As regards the notes

16 to which Mr. Sayers is referring, once again it is a

17 diary which was mentioned a few moments ago, which

18 was -- some time ago and which your Chamber refused.

19 That was the request.

20 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. I'm not following

21 this. Your reference, I thought, was to the

22 milinfosum.

23 MR. SAYERS: There was a reference to

24 Colonel Duncan's diary which contained a sentence, sir,

25 that refers to: "Beginning the day with a trip to the

Page 10313

1 Hotel Vitez with Angus Hay to meet Valenta," and my

2 next question was whether this military information

3 summary encapsulated the results of that meeting, and

4 the Major, I thought, answered, "yes."

5 JUDGE MAY: Whereabouts are we finding it on

6 the milinfosum?

7 MR. SAYERS: On the first page, Your Honour,

8 under item 1, "Vitez area," the second paragraph. It

9 says: "During a meeting, Anto Valenta, vice-president

10 of the HVO OZ CB stated that he was concerned about the

11 possibility of elements of the 7th Muslim Brigade,

12 3rd BiH Corps, coming into his area," and then he

13 recites a number of statistics.

14 JUDGE MAY: Well, I missed the reference to

15 the diary. Mr. Sayers, do not refer to the diary

16 without specific leave.

17 Now, let me find -- let's see what the

18 witness says about this, which is the important thing.

19 Major, the second paragraph of the document

20 which we have, the milinfosum, does that accord with

21 your recollection?

22 A. If it's documented, that would have been

23 printed up at the end of the day and that's why it

24 would have gone to print anyway. So I've got no reason

25 to deny that that was the case.

Page 10314

1 JUDGE MAY: And have we this document

2 marked?

3 MR. SAYERS: As the next Defence exhibit.

4 It's marked D131/1, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well.


7 Q. Thank you very much, Major. Would it be fair

8 to say that attempts were made by the members of your

9 unit, by the liaison officers, to communicate accurate

10 information regarding significant developments or

11 events or meetings to the military information officer

12 insofar as that was possible and those events were

13 contemporaneously or virtually contemporaneously

14 recorded in the -- or summarised in the military

15 information summary?

16 A. That was our modus operandi. That's the way

17 we conducted business.

18 Q. You don't have any recollection, would it be

19 fair to say, other than what is summarised in the

20 milinfosum that we see here, of any statements made by

21 Messrs. Valenta, Santic, or Skopljak; would that be

22 fair to say?

23 A. That's right.

24 Q. All right. Two other items in connection

25 with this military information summary, sir, which you

Page 10315

1 may or may not be able to help us with. If you would

2 turn to the second page. It's actually marked "3 of 5"

3 at the top. Right at the top of the page there's a

4 reference to the supposed movements of the 7th Muslim

5 Brigade and the 305th Jajce Brigade. Both of these are

6 identified as manoeuvre units of the 3rd Corps. Could

7 you just let us know, sir, what a manoeuvre unit is?

8 Does it have any special purpose or characteristics?

9 A. My interpretation would be that it's a

10 unit -- how can I put this? It's a specialist unit.

11 Q. Major, I don't -- I really don't mean to put

12 you on the spot. If the term "manoeuvre unit" doesn't

13 have a particular meaning in terms of a term of art in

14 your military profession, please let me know.

15 Would it be fair to say that the observation

16 made by the military information officer that the

17 3rd Corps was preparing to prosecute its tactically

18 dominant position in the Lasva Valley as response to

19 HVO aggressions further south, was that your tactical

20 analysis of the situation or didn't you have one?

21 A. No. That's the intelligence officers.

22 That's what he got paid for.

23 Q. One final question in connection with this

24 milinfosum, sir. Under the third entry regarding

25 events in Zenica, there's a reference to three abducted

Page 10316

1 Croat men having been found, their bodies in a charred

2 condition, in the basement of a burned-out house. You

3 can also read what else is stated in that paragraph,

4 and there's no need to repeat.

5 Suffice it to say, sir, that this is the kind

6 of incident that would have been discussed by you and

7 your colleagues at the commanders' briefing held during

8 the evening of May the 13th or shortly thereafter;

9 would that be fair to say?

10 A. Yes, but at the same -- I mean, I say -- we

11 had a meeting in the evenings, and then anybody who had

12 any specific information would then go and have a

13 one-to-one with the intelligence officer thereafter.

14 So we weren't always privy to what everybody was going

15 on or knowing what everybody else was doing.

16 Q. Were you ever aware of any investigations

17 that were initiated by the ABiH in connection with that

18 particular incident, sir?

19 A. I'm sorry, no.

20 Q. Very briefly regarding the command structure

21 in Travnik, which was covered by your area of

22 responsibility. You mentioned that early on during

23 your tour the HVO commander was replaced but you could

24 not remember the name of the first commander.

25 A. That's right.

Page 10317

1 Q. If I suggest to you that the name was

2 Colonel Filip Filipovic, does that ring a bell?

3 A. Yes, it does.

4 Q. And he was the --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- commander? And the second commander was

7 Jozo Leutar?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you know what happened to Mr. Leutar?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You didn't hear that he had actually been

12 appointed Deputy Minister of Internal Affairs for the

13 federation and was blown up in a car bomb in Sarajevo

14 rather recently?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Last year, in fact. You didn't know that, I

17 take it.

18 A. No.

19 Q. On the subject of Mr. Kordic, sir, as you

20 were being taken around and being introduced by

21 Captain Dundas-Whatley, you were introduced to

22 Mr. Kordic, and I believe your testimony was you were

23 not sure how he fitted into the overall picture; is

24 that correct?

25 A. That's -- that was my conclusions at the

Page 10318

1 time, yes.

2 Q. And would it be fair to say that that was the

3 conclusion of the liaison officer who was taking you

4 around and introducing you to various local figures,

5 Captain Dundas-Whatley?

6 A. I cannot remember what his opinion was,

7 but -- I can't remember what his opinion was.

8 Q. It's fair to say, sir, that you rarely, if

9 ever, saw Colonel Blaskic and Mr. Kordic together;

10 correct?

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. Throughout your tour of duty, I believe you

13 never actually saw Mr. Kordic at the HVO headquarters

14 in the Hotel Vitez; would that be fair to say?

15 A. I can't recall ever seeing him there;

16 correct.

17 Q. Would it also be fair to say that you did not

18 attend any of the weekly press conferences held by the

19 politicians and military leaders of the HVO?

20 A. No, I didn't attend those.

21 Q. Would it also be fair to say that your

22 knowledge of Mr. Kordic's position at the end of your

23 tour did not differ markedly from your knowledge of

24 Colonel Blaskic's and Mr. Kordic's position at the

25 beginning of your tour?

Page 10319

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You said that you attended a luncheon at a

3 cabin to the south of Busovaca, south-east or

4 south-west, but to the south of Busovaca in May, I

5 believe, of 1993, along with your CO, some local

6 dignitaries, and Colonel Blaskic and Commander

7 Grubesic; correct?

8 A. That's right. Pretty soon after I arrived in

9 theatre.

10 Q. And I take it, sir, that that was the only

11 luncheon that you ever attended at which your CO,

12 Lieutenant-Colonel Duncan, and Mr. Kordic were present?

13 A. That's the only one that I was present at

14 when those two were present, yes, that I can recall.

15 Q. Do you recall also being present a

16 representative of DutchBat, the Dutch battalion of

17 UNPROFOR, Colonel Paulus Schipper, I think his name

18 is?

19 A. The commander of the Dutch battalion. I

20 can't remember.

21 Q. Very well. And it would be fair to say that

22 you do not recall anything of particular political or

23 military significance being discussed at this luncheon

24 because it was a purely social event designed to get

25 people to --

Page 10320

1 A. I think it was predominantly the introduction

2 of the new commanding officer of BritBat to the local

3 dignitaries and commanders.

4 Q. Do you recall, sir, whether Colonel Blaskic's

5 second in command, Franjo Nakic, was also present at

6 this luncheon?

7 A. I cannot remember. There were a number of

8 other individuals there, a couple of other individuals,

9 but I can't remember who they were.

10 Q. All right. I wonder if I could just show you

11 a copy of a milinfosum, number 20, dated May the 19th,

12 1993. It may or may not make reference to this

13 meeting.

14 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D132/1.

15 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.

16 Q. Just two or three questions in connection

17 with this milinfosum, sir. In the centre of the first

18 paragraph, under item 1, "Vitez," the military

19 information officer records that: "When both Blaskic

20 and his deputy, Nakic, were independently appraised

21 that the fire," sniper fire, I think they're referring

22 to, "was uncomfortably close," once again to the

23 BritBat compound, I believe, "and that the guard might

24 return fire, they agreed that this was the only means

25 of resolving the problem."

Page 10321

1 Do you recall any discussion of a sniper

2 problem and Colonel Blaskic's recommendations on how to

3 solve that sniper problem, or is that a subject that

4 you simply have no recollection of whatsoever?

5 A. I do recall there was -- I do remember the

6 topic came up. I can't remember what was agreed or

7 what we proposed, other than if we were going to take

8 casualties, then we would respond accordingly.

9 Q. There's a reference at the bottom of the

10 first page of this military information summary to a

11 joint commission for Bosnia and Herzegovina that is --

12 whose members are summarised on the bottom of the first

13 page, as you can see. Do you have any knowledge

14 regarding the positions held by these eight listed

15 people, four on behalf of the ABiH and four on behalf

16 of the HVO?

17 A. I can't remember. I'm sure I did at the

18 time, but they're just names now. I'm sorry.

19 Q. Just two questions, if I can jog your

20 memory. Does it ring a familar bell that the fourth

21 person listed under the ABiH, Sefer Halilovic, was

22 actually the commanding officer of all of the ABiH

23 forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. If that was the case, I can't deny it, but I

25 can't remember. I'm sorry.

Page 10322

1 Q. How about the fourth name under the HVO,

2 Milivoj Petkovic; does it ring a bell that he was the

3 chief of the general staff of the HVO in Mostar?

4 A. Again, I'm sorry, I can't --

5 Q. Very well.

6 MR. SAYERS: This might be a convenient time

7 to break, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE MAY: Have you got very much more for

9 this witness?

10 MR. SAYERS: Perhaps 15 or 20 minutes, Your

11 Honour.

12 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now for

13 half an hour.

14 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

15 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers.

17 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Q. Major Hay, we've both been asked by the

19 interpreters to keep our voices up because they are

20 having difficulty hearing us.

21 Just a few final topics I would like to

22 address with you. Turning to the Convoy of Joy

23 incident that you've described, the Convoy of Joy

24 proceeded through Croat-held territory in the midst of

25 of an offensive launched by Muslim forces in the

Page 10323

1 Travnik area; isn't that fair to say?

2 A. Yes, there was conflict going on at the time,

3 yes.

4 Q. In fact, sir, in the summer of 1993, the

5 Muslim forces launched a series of large-scale

6 offensives against HVO forces in a variety of areas,

7 didn't they?

8 A. That's right, yes.

9 Q. We've already heard a lot of evidence on

10 that, and I do not believe that it's necessary to

11 burden the record any further with it, Major. But

12 turning to the offensive in the Travnik area, that

13 resulted in many thousands of refugees, Croats, who had

14 been expelled from their homes; correct?

15 A. Yes, there -- yes.

16 Q. And around the time of the Convoy of Joy,

17 were you aware that there had been two separate

18 massacres of Croat civilians, first in Maljina, where

19 36 Croat civilians were killed and 270 families cleaned

20 out of their houses, and second in the village of

21 Cukle, where 19 civilians were killed and 175 families

22 expelled from their houses?

23 A. I'm sorry, I cannot remember specifics, but

24 yes, I do recall there was the term -- to use the term

25 "cleansing" -- going on on both sides.

Page 10324

1 Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, that that had a

2 large part in the ugly mood demonstrated by the largely

3 civilian crowd that apprehended the Convoy of Joy in

4 the Novi Travnik area?

5 A. I'm sure it contributed to the feelings,

6 yes.

7 Q. One final line of questions in this vein,

8 sir: Were you aware that an artillery shell had been

9 fired from Stari Vitez into Vitez, that it hit a

10 children's playground in the evening of June the 10th

11 of 1993 and actually killed --

12 JUDGE MAY: We've heard a great deal of

13 evidence about this. This witness ceased to be the

14 liaison officer in June. I wonder if there is any

15 point going over it again. We know that this happened;

16 other witnesses have been asked about it, and it

17 doesn't seem to me that repetition is going to assist

18 us, unless there is a particular question relating to

19 this witness.

20 MR. SAYERS: I take your point acutely,

21 Mr. President, and I only have one question in that

22 regard.

23 Q. Major, did you ever hear of any investigation

24 being initiated or conducted by ABiH forces responsible

25 for the deaths of those eight children in Stari Vitez

Page 10325

1 during the evening of June the 10th, 1993?

2 A. In Vitez?

3 Q. In Vitez, yes.

4 A. No, but what I would say, at the time, the

5 ABiH were in no position to conduct an investigation at

6 that time, given their circumstances in Vitez.

7 Q. Were you aware that the detachment in Stari

8 Vitez was a detachment of the 325th Mountain Brigade of

9 the 3rd Corps, headquartered in Zenica?

10 A. I don't know. I'm sorry.

11 Q. Did you ever hear of any investigation being

12 performed by the 3rd Corps, or by anyone on the ABiH

13 side, into the events of that evening that we've just

14 described?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. The Convoy of Joy, sir, was a

17 purely private convoy, I believe, not one which was

18 sponsored by any United Nations organisations, such as

19 the UNHCR or other U.N.-related organisations; correct?

20 A. Correct. It was sponsored by themselves, I

21 believe.

22 Q. Did you yourself see people, civilians,

23 making a desperate grab for whatever they could grab

24 from the convoy and carting things off in wheelbarrows

25 and hand carts and things of that variety?

Page 10326

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. One question in connection with the death of

3 the UNHCR driver that you testified about, sir, towards

4 the end of your tour, killed by members, I believe you

5 said, of the 7th Muslim Brigade: Do you recall whether

6 members of that brigade were ever asked to conduct any

7 investigations relating to that death and the

8 circumstances of it?

9 A. No, not -- not during my time. But that

10 instance coincided very quickly with the 3rd BritBat

11 coming in to take over from us, so they may have

12 instigated an investigation. But I do recall a United

13 Nations investigator coming over.

14 Q. This was at the end of your tour, and I

15 believe the Prince of Wales Own Regiment of Yorkshire

16 was replaced as the BritBat component of UNPROFOR by

17 the Coldstream Guards; would that be fair to say?

18 A. That's right.

19 Q. And you don't know whether the Coldstream

20 Guards ever prevailed upon the 7th Muslim Brigade or

21 the 3rd Corps to conduct their own internal

22 investigation into that fatality, do you, sir?

23 A. Correct. I -- I don't know.

24 Q. Just a very brief line of questions about the

25 Grbavica assault on September the 8th, 7th and the

Page 10327

1 8th. Isn't it true that immediately prior to the

2 assault on the feature by the forces of the HVO that

3 the civilians of Grbavica had requested the assistance

4 of BritBat to be evacuated to Travnik?

5 A. I wasn't aware whether it was before or

6 during, but I was aware that civilians, for their own

7 protection, were evacuated through to Travnik.

8 Q. All right. That's my point precisely. Prior

9 to -- in order to prevent civilian injuries or

10 fatalities, a request for assistance was made to

11 UNPROFOR, and BritBat, the Prince of Wales Own,

12 actually conducted an armed escort of these civilians

13 out of the war zone; correct?

14 A. Yes. Once the -- when they had -- when

15 battle had commenced, so to speak.

16 Q. And as a result of this, which is very

17 understandable, there were no civilian casualties, were

18 there --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. -- as far as you know?

21 A. Yes, there were.

22 Q. Now, at the time of the Grbavica assault,

23 Major, there is no question that there was a huge

24 refugee problem in Vitez and the surrounding area;

25 isn't that correct?

Page 10328

1 A. There was, yes.

2 Q. One component of that problem was the

3 concomitant, if you like, of a severe housing shortage

4 because of the large numbers of people flooding into

5 the area; would you agree with that?

6 A. Yes. I mean, that's the way it was. I mean,

7 ethnic sort of groups were coming together into their

8 own sort of ethnic groups, from being displaced --

9 being displaced elsewhere.

10 Q. One final question: In connection with your

11 visit to General Alagic, and the prisoners of war that

12 you saw in the basement of his headquarters, you never

13 actually saw these people again, did you?

14 A. No, I didn't.

15 Q. You don't know what happened to them?

16 A. No.

17 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, that concludes

18 the questions that I have for the major.

19 Q. Thank you very much indeed, sir.

20 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

22 Q. My name is Bozidar Kovacic and I'm a lawyer

23 from Rijeka, and I have colleague Goran Mikulicic from

24 Zagreb, and together we represent represent Mr. Mario

25 Cerkez, the second accused in this case. We don't

Page 10329

1 speak the same language, so I should like to ask you to

2 be kind enough to make a small pause before giving your

3 answer to my questions, to facilitate the work of the

4 interpreters. Also, if you don't understand my

5 question, please let me know immediately.

6 Major, during your tour of duty in Central

7 Bosnia, you replaced your colleague, Matthew

8 Dundas-Whatley, didn't you?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And immediately after your arrival, you made

11 a tour to familiarise yourself with a number of

12 personalities on both sides, the HVO and the BH army,

13 people who meant something, so as to be able to do your

14 work properly; is that correct?

15 A. That is correct.

16 Q. May I infer from that that this was a process

17 of preparation for your work and gathering of

18 information on the subject that you had to deal with?

19 A. Yes, it assisted in getting to know the local

20 commanders, yes.

21 Q. Major, before your actual arrival in Bosnia,

22 did you have any preliminary knowledge about the

23 Balkans?

24 A. Yes, I had done a bit of book reading. I

25 can't remember the books now, but yes.

Page 10330

1 Q. Major, when you arrived in the Lasva Valley,

2 regardless of the briefings that you had had and your

3 knowledge, was the situation black and white and clear,

4 or were there many grey areas? What was your

5 impression, your first impression when you arrived?

6 A. It wasn't -- it wasn't your everyday

7 circumstance. It was unusual, yes. It was -- things

8 were going on that wouldn't normally go on.

9 Q. One of the things that I believe you tried to

10 grasp immediately was the question of the zones of

11 responsibility and establishment of contact with local

12 commanders in the areas in your area of

13 responsibility. Did you obtain clear information of

14 which commander, regardless of whether he was from the

15 HVO or from the BH army, was responsible for which

16 particular area?

17 A. I had a working knowledge of who was -- of

18 specific areas of responsibility and who were the

19 notional commanders. But what you have to understand

20 is that out there, at the time we arrived, the bomb had

21 gone off in Vitez, Ahmici had happened, and a variety

22 of other incidents had happened, and what you and I

23 would interpret as a normal existence did not -- was

24 not extant out there at the time. Furthermore,

25 regarding your question, there were a lot of

Page 10331

1 provincial, local individuals who may have been doing

2 things on their own without the consent, knowledge, or

3 whatever, of their hierarchy, on both sides.

4 Q. Thank you. But can we agree that from the

5 standpoint of your responsibilities, it was your

6 constant task to establish which unit, which area of

7 responsibility, which assignment each particular unit

8 had?

9 A. As far as I could -- as far as we could,

10 yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Major, at the beginning of your

12 examination-in-chief, I believe it must have been a

13 lapsus linguae by the Prosecutor when it was stated

14 that the base of the British was in Nova Bila. I

15 assume that you know that the location was Stara Bila

16 or Bila, not Nova Bila.

17 A. It was at the school in Nova Bila --

18 JUDGE MAY: If you don't know, just say so.

19 A. Okay. I can't remember, sorry.

20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Let me try and remind you. During your stay

22 there, you must have visited the hospital in Nova Bila,

23 the hospital in the church, the improvised hospital in

24 the church in Nova Bila.

25 A. No, I didn't visit it. That was the G-5 LO

Page 10332

1 who used to do that. I can't remember visiting a

2 hospital in a church, no.

3 Q. But during your daily meetings of liaison

4 officers that you referred to, did you know from that

5 that there was an improvised HVO hospital in a church

6 in Nova Bila?

7 A. There were numerous improvised hospitals. I

8 remember visiting one in Vitez itself, but I can't

9 remember exactly what building it was in. As I say,

10 there were a couple of improvised hospitals. I can't

11 remember any specific one, I'm sorry.

12 Q. The hospital you mentioned in Vitez, are you

13 thinking of the town itself?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Maybe that, conditionally speaking, hospital

16 was actually in a basement, wasn't it?

17 A. That's right, yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, Major, in the

19 course of your stay in Central Bosnia, could you at

20 least roughly tell us how many times you had occasion

21 to meet with Mr. Cerkez?

22 A. Again, not more than ten times.

23 Q. I assume this was mostly in the initial

24 period, before you had divided your area of

25 responsibility with another colleague.

Page 10333

1 A. That's right.

2 Q. In the course of those conversations, did you

3 manage on any occasion to obtain clear information from

4 him what was his area of responsibility or, rather, the

5 area of responsibility of his unit?

6 A. Not specifically from him, no. No. My

7 interpretation was he was the -- sort of the town

8 commander in the immediate area around the Lasva Valley

9 and out surrounding Vitez.

10 Q. Major, you also learnt shortly, I believe

11 from your introductory briefings already, that within

12 the territory of Vitez municipality, which need not

13 necessarily coincide with your understanding of regions

14 or areas of responsibility, that there were various HVO

15 units active in that municipality. Is that true?

16 A. Yes. There seemed to be other factions

17 operating.

18 Q. Did you perhaps learn anything in greater

19 detail about their areas of responsibility in the first

20 period of your stay?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Very well. Thank you. I shall now like to

23 ask you a couple of questions in connection with your

24 meeting with Cerkez when you were accompanying the U.N.

25 investigators. You recognised one of them on the

Page 10334

1 photograph. Would you agree that that meeting took

2 place on the 4th of May, the 4th of May, 1993?

3 A. I'm sorry, I can't remember specific dates.

4 Q. But you would agree that it was a short time

5 after you had arrived and at the beginning of May

6 1993?

7 A. That's right, yes.

8 Q. We had a witness here, one of the two

9 investigators, who described in some detail -- he

10 explicitly stated that present at that meeting was the

11 investigator, Cerkez, Major Dundas-Whatley, an

12 interpreter, an HVO security officer at the beginning

13 of the meeting, and then halfway through the meeting

14 Colonel Stewart joined in, but he never mentioned any

15 other British officer being present in addition to

16 Dundas-Whatley.

17 JUDGE MAY: What's the question?

18 MR. KOVACIC: I'm just coming to it, sir.

19 Q. [Interpretation] At the meeting in Cerkez's

20 office that you attended together with you and

21 investigators, was this person present that you showed

22 us on the photograph, the one with the glasses, or was

23 someone else present, the other person whose photograph

24 you saw? Can you remember that?

25 A. There were two individuals. The one with the

Page 10335

1 glasses, I remember he was one of the investigators. I

2 can't remember who the other one was.

3 Q. And they were both present at the meeting?

4 A. Yes. They were both conducting the

5 investigation.

6 Q. Was that meeting held in the cinema building,

7 in Cerkez's office?

8 A. Yes, it was.

9 Q. In your previous statement you mentioned that

10 nasty-looking man, armed to the teeth, who was present,

11 and whose presence was rather unpleasant, and that he

12 was there throughout the meeting. Are you sure that

13 that person did not leave the room virtually before the

14 meeting began?

15 A. No, I can't remember, but I do remember he

16 was present. Whether he left through the meeting --

17 immediately before we got into the conversation, I

18 can't remember, but I do remember him being in the

19 room.

20 Q. Let me try and remind you, refresh your

21 memory. I know it was six years ago. Payam Akhavan

22 said that he found the presence of this soldier

23 unpleasant, and he asked Cerkez for the person to leave

24 the meeting, and Cerkez did as he asked and the man

25 left. Does that refresh your memory?

Page 10336

1 A. I'm sorry, I can't remember. All I remember

2 is he was there. Whether he stayed for the whole

3 meeting or not, I can't remember.

4 Q. In your statement you said that it was Darko

5 Kraljevic.

6 A. That's right, yes.

7 Q. Had you seen Darko Kraljevic before? Had you

8 met him?

9 A. No.

10 Q. How did you then know that it was Darko

11 Kraljevic?

12 A. Because I remember the individual that was in

13 the room, and then whether during the conversation with

14 Mr. Cerkez or subsequently, I got to know this

15 individual as Darko Kraljevic. I got to know his

16 name. But it was definitely one and the same person.

17 Q. In your statement to the investigators, you

18 said that he was dressed in black. If I show you that

19 the witness told us that he was wearing a greyish-green

20 sweater, a sweater worn by German troops, does that

21 refresh your memory?

22 JUDGE MAY: The witness has said that he was

23 wearing dark clothing. I don't know what you're

24 referring to, Mr. Kovacic, as a witness wearing a

25 greyish-green sweater. Is this another witness in the

Page 10337

1 case?

2 MR. KOVACIC: Yes. Payam Akhavan said this

3 explicitly, and it seems to me there may have been two

4 meetings.

5 JUDGE MAY: You see, you're asking the

6 witness to comment on what another witness has said,

7 and I don't know how useful that is. I rather doubt

8 it's not very useful. You can certainly put to the

9 witness: Was it a greyish-green sweater? And, in

10 fact, I will do so.

11 Major Hay, was the witness or might the

12 witness have been wearing -- might Kraljevic have been

13 wearing a greyish-green sweater?

14 A. He might well have been wearing a

15 greyish-green sweater.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now let's move on.


18 Q. And let us round off that part. That

19 individual whom you believed to be Darko Kraljevic

20 attending the meeting, did he take part, any part, in

21 the meeting at all?

22 A. I don't think he did. I can't remember him

23 taking part, no.

24 Q. Major, did you take the floor at the

25 meeting? Did you take an active part in the meeting or

Page 10338

1 were you just an observer?

2 A. No, it was the U.N. investigators. It was

3 their shout basically.

4 Q. And do you remember if your colleague

5 Matthew Dundas-Whatley said something after the meeting

6 when you left that place? Did he say anything about

7 the manner in which Cerkez was interviewed by the U.N.

8 representatives and defining it as cross-examination?

9 A. I can't remember, I'm sorry.

10 Q. Would you remember if your colleague

11 Major Dundas-Whatley showed that he was not very happy

12 with the course of that meeting because he had a

13 different idea about the maintenance of contact? Did

14 he say anything to that effect?

15 A. Sorry, about the what? About the maintenance

16 of contact? I'm sorry, I don't understand. Can you

17 repeat that?

18 Q. Yes. My fault. I wasn't clear enough. As a

19 liaison officer, you had the same role. Of course, you

20 wanted to maintain with the local authorities, with

21 local commanders, relations which would be the best

22 possible, which would be the most correct possible so

23 that you could continue keeping in touch with them and

24 in contact with them. So that was in your best

25 interest, wasn't that?

Page 10339

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And when the meeting with Cerkez was over,

3 did then your colleague Matthew Dundas-Whatley

4 criticise in any way the tactic and the conduct of the

5 U.N. investigators during the meeting with Cerkez; that

6 is, that it was interfering with Matthew

7 Dundas-Whatley's work?

8 A. I can't remember. He may well have done, but

9 I'm sorry, I can't remember that specific event.

10 Q. Today you testified that you saw Darko

11 Kraljevic on several other occasions in the vicinity or

12 around Cerkez's headquarters, and I should like to

13 remind you that in the statement which you gave to the

14 investigators of the Tribunal in April 1997, on page 3,

15 you say: [In English] [Previous translation

16 continues] ... "Kraljevic together again after this

17 meeting. Soon afterwards, I handed the Vitez area over

18 to Captain Lee Whitworth."

19 [Translation] So which of the two statements

20 is true: what you told us today or what you said on

21 that occasion?

22 A. What is true is I never saw Mario Cerkez and

23 Dario Kordic together again. I saw, rather, Darko

24 Kraljevic. Sorry. I saw Darko Kraljevic in and around

25 the cinema and in the vicinity when I used to pop in to

Page 10340

1 see Mario Cerkez, but I never actually saw them

2 physically together again.

3 Q. While we're on the topic of Darko Kraljevic,

4 let us close that part of the story with just one

5 question more. A moment ago, when asked by my learned

6 friend Sayers, answered that you learnt about the

7 Vitezovi -- about the existence of the Vitezovi, of

8 that particular HVO unit, much later, but did you

9 associate it with Darko Kraljevic? Were you aware that

10 he was the commander of that particular unit?

11 A. Not at that time particular time.

12 Subsequently when this area had been handed over to

13 Captain Whitworth, through the debriefs in the

14 evenings, through the rest of the course of our time

15 there, I got to associate with the name Vitezovi and

16 Darko Kraljevic and the connotation between the two and

17 just through talking to the other LOs.

18 Q. Right. Thank you. During your tour of duty

19 there and those briefings, did you learn anything about

20 the origins of that unit of the Vitezovi, about its

21 background, its history?

22 A. No. I didn't know anything about it.

23 Q. Did you hear ever anything about the

24 existence of HOS units in Central Bosnia, H-O-S units?

25 A. Yes. I was aware of their existence as

Page 10341

1 well. Again, after I had handed over the sort of Vitez

2 area, that's when the HOS and the Vitezovi came to

3 light, and I heard it through the grapevine, so to

4 speak.

5 Q. And you somehow learned that HOS units were

6 more or less present in all the municipalities in the

7 Lasva River Valley?

8 A. I knew of their existence. I didn't know

9 their whereabouts, specific whereabouts, no.

10 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to hear, to

11 see, or read somewhere that at least until sometime in

12 1993, HOS units also included quite a number of Muslims

13 and some of them were even commanding officers there?

14 A. No. I didn't know anything about that.

15 Q. Let me just go back to that meeting with

16 Cerkez. I have just one more question about that. You

17 cannot recount to us in greater detail the conversation

18 between Mr. Cerkez and the two investigators; is that

19 correct?

20 A. No, I can't remember the content of the

21 conversation, no, I'm sorry, although it did sort of

22 centralise around Ahmici.

23 Q. Thank you. You referred to the convoy, and I

24 do not want to go into that really, but I think there

25 is just one question there. You mentioned women. You

Page 10342

1 specifically mentioned women as active participants, as

2 the actors of that incident when the convoy was

3 stopped, but they were not HVO members; they were

4 civilians. It was quite clear, wasn't that -- wasn't

5 it?

6 A. Yes. The convoy was stopped by women.

7 Q. Do you think, in view of the request you

8 addressed to the present HVO soldiers, to stop those

9 women and calm them down? So do you think that the

10 army, the military, have any jurisdiction over these

11 civilians, that they are called upon to introduce law

12 and order and do anything with those civilians?

13 A. They were present, they were armed, and given

14 the nature of what was going on in the Lasva Valley at

15 the time, I remember requesting them or beseeching them

16 to sort of do something about it, and they wouldn't.

17 They said they couldn't. As I said earlier on, I would

18 argue the fact that they just wouldn't, not couldn't.

19 Q. During your tour in the Lasva Valley, Major,

20 you could see that there was some civilian police, not

21 only that it existed but that it was active; is that

22 true?

23 A. There were individuals or units on both sides

24 who were appointed civilian police, but I would have

25 different views as to actually who commanded them and

Page 10343

1 who orchestrated their movements, et cetera. I would

2 say they were controlled by the military at that time

3 because there was complete breakdown in sort of

4 infrastructure and everything. Everything was sort of

5 commanded by the sort of military -- orchestrated by

6 the military commanders around the area.

7 Q. And you arrived at this conclusion on the

8 basis of all the information and everything that you

9 learned during your tour there, is it?

10 A. That's right. On my own sort of observations

11 and experiences.

12 Q. Did you ever see a document or an incident

13 from which it would clearly transpire that the civilian

14 police was under the command of some undefined

15 authority, political authority, if I may put it that

16 way?

17 A. It may well have been. I mean, when we

18 arrived -- and I can't remember; I think it was in

19 June -- there were a number of meetings going on with

20 ECMM and ourselves, getting the heads of both sort of

21 warring factions together, and there were a number of

22 agreements, pacts, whatever you want to call it, that

23 came out of it. But inevitably, as soon as it was

24 signed, it was broken the next day anyway. That may be

25 a cynical point of view, but it was also fact.

Page 10344

1 So, really, I go back to the point that

2 really, at that time, the military commanders

3 -- "military commanders," inverted commas -- were the

4 ones that sort of had the pool of everything at the

5 time.

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, we are now going

7 some way from the evidence in chief, and the witness

8 has given his evidence as to why he came to that

9 conclusion. If you want to contradict it, of course,

10 you can call evidence of your own.

11 MR. KOVACIC: I agree, Your Honour. Just one

12 simple question on that?

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Then let's move on.

14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Same story, same convoy, and then we come to

16 Nova Bila then, and the convoy was stopped again. And

17 on that occasion, I think you said that you were there,

18 and there were even two uniformed policemen; do you

19 remember that?

20 A. I didn't specifically see the -- I didn't see

21 the incident; I heard about it afterwards. But I heard

22 the firing, and I was diverted away from the assisting

23 to escort the convoy as I came across a gunshot-wound

24 casualty, and I took that wounded individual in the

25 back of my vehicle all the way back to Travnik, to the

Page 10345

1 hospital in Travnik. And so I wasn't there on the

2 ground for the rest of that incident.

3 Q. And you don't remember the civilian

4 policemen? Did you see them, or did you not?

5 A. As I said, I wasn't really involved in the

6 rest of that incident, and I was evacuating a

7 casualty.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, about Grbavica, only a few

9 questions, please.

10 You mentioned that there was a sniper active

11 in the area. Was that a sniper of the -- a BH army

12 sniper? Was it from two houses, from two white houses,

13 from the hollow or from the crest of the hill behind

14 your camp?

15 A. Yes, I remember there was a Muslim sniper,

16 from the house directly above what we called the

17 officers' mess at the time, used to fire out of that

18 house.

19 Q. But were you ever informed that those two

20 houses belonged to Serbs who had left the area, and so

21 the snipers had taken them over as their base?

22 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.

23 Q. But you will agree with me that that was not

24 the only sniper in Grbavica, was it?

25 A. I'm sure there were others. I wasn't

Page 10346

1 particularly aware of any -- any more, but it wouldn't

2 surprise me to find out that there were more.

3 Q. Major, Grbavica was a point controlled by the

4 BH army even before you arrived in the Lasva Valley,

5 and I suppose you must have learned that at the

6 briefings in your early days, and subsequently you also

7 could see that?

8 A. Yes. Yes.

9 Q. So there is no doubt that that point commands

10 the view of all the other points on all the slopes

11 above the road, that practically it controls the

12 principal route through the valley -- that is, the road

13 between Travnik and Vitez -- isn't it?

14 A. That is correct.

15 Q. So presumably you learnt and saw in no time

16 that the HVO and civilians were compelled to use a

17 roundabout route, which was not all that easy, if they

18 wanted to move between Vitez and Travnik; is that

19 correct?

20 A. Yes, that's correct.

21 Q. And you also learnt that on various

22 occasions, people, either civilians or military, who

23 would drive a vehicle and use that road in front of

24 your camp -- that is, Grbavica -- in spite of the risk,

25 that many of them fell victim to those snipers?

Page 10347

1 A. Yes, I was aware, and I saw a number of

2 individuals who were, unfortunately, shot.

3 Q. And when the military operations ended and

4 the HVO took over Grbavica and mopped up the area, the

5 HVO -- the BH army withdrew from Grbavica; is that

6 correct?

7 A. As far as I can remember, yes.

8 Q. However, meanwhile, before the civilians, the

9 refugees arrived, a team, a police team came, and it

10 tried to investigate the tracks, the signs of the BH

11 army's stay there, to collect weapons and see if there

12 were any civilians left. Do you know anything about

13 that?

14 A. Sorry, can you repeat that again?

15 Q. Do you recall that that same evening when the

16 fighting ended, on the 8th of September, in the late

17 afternoon, to the village of Grbavica, a small civilian

18 police team came in order to take stock of the

19 situation and look for weapons and things like that?

20 Do you remember that?

21 A. No, I can't remember that specifically.

22 Q. But do you recall that that night, a group of

23 men, of civilians, looked for shelter there?

24 A. I remember a group of civilians --

25 JUDGE MAY: What is the point of all this,

Page 10348

1 Mr. Kovacic? This witness simply saw the attack. You

2 are asking him about a huge amount of background

3 detail. I don't know that it's going to assist us to

4 know about this.

5 He said two things: One, that he saw the

6 attack; he's agreed that it was a military target, but

7 he said the destruction afterwards was too great. Now,

8 that's all he said, and you have spent ten minutes or

9 more asking him about a lot of detail that you can deal

10 with in your own case. Now, have you any challenge to

11 the specific evidence which he gave, which was that it

12 was a military target -- presumably you don't dispute

13 that -- or that the destruction was too great?

14 Now, if you want to dispute that with the

15 witness, you can; but we will be here for a very long

16 time indeed if we go on like this, all this detail.

17 The witness simply can't give detail about what the HVO

18 did unless he was there. Now, could you concentrate

19 your cross-examination, please, on those two matters,

20 if you have any questions about them.

21 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry if I did

22 any mistake, but --

23 JUDGE MAY: There's no need to apologise.

24 It's not necessary. But the point is this, that can we

25 concentrate in this case on evidence which the witness

Page 10349

1 gives and can deal with? If you have a lot of other

2 evidence about the background to it -- for instance,

3 about how the civilians had to use a roundabout route

4 -- the time to put that evidence forward is in your

5 own case, rather than these endless arguments with each

6 of the witnesses.

7 Now, could we deal with the matters which the

8 witness himself dealt with.

9 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, certainly, Your Honour,

10 but could I then just tender a document which was

11 earlier mentioned, and it refers to the situation in

12 Grbavica after the military part of the information.

13 JUDGE MAY: Does it deal with the

14 destruction?

15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE MAY: And you say it's already been put

17 into evidence, has it?

18 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, yes, in the file, but

19 without the number. If I can remind you, that was what

20 I showed to Witness Whitworth, and he recognised his

21 name and the contact. And then after we asked for the

22 translation, I filed it; it is in the court file, but

23 it is not marked as the evidence.

24 JUDGE MAY: Very well. What is it? A

25 milinfosum?

Page 10350

1 MR. KOVACIC: It is one report of the

2 commander of uniformed police who was there on the site

3 investigating the result of the action.

4 JUDGE MAY: And who is it an investigation

5 by? Which police?

6 MR. KOVACIC: The title is obvious from the

7 stamp, and it has commander of uniformed police, part

8 of police from Travnik.

9 JUDGE MAY: You can put the document to the

10 witness. He may not be able to comment on it because

11 he won't have seen it before, but you can put it to

12 him, provided we do it briefly and then we move on.

13 MR. KOVACIC: There is Croatian text on the

14 top, and the English and French is enclosed. And I can

15 only ask the witness whether he recognises the name of

16 his colleague, Captain Whitworth, who was mentioned by

17 a police officer there.

18 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

19 D43/2.

20 MR. KOVACIC: In order to speed out, last

21 line in the third paragraph.

22 Q. Could you agree -- or do you know anything

23 about it, that is -- that your colleague,

24 Mr. Whitworth, was called Captain Perry by the HVO, and

25 that he could react to this visit?

Page 10351

1 A. I'm sorry, I'm not slipping shoulders here,

2 but the area of responsibility was Captain

3 Whitworth's. I had no sort of jurisdiction in this

4 area. I can't comment on this at all. I'm sorry.

5 JUDGE MAY: We heard in the evidence that he

6 was referred to as Captain Perry; the witness himself

7 told us that. This witness can't take the matter any

8 further, it seems to me.

9 MR. KOVACIC: Could that document be tendered

10 as evidence?

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, it's been tendered. It's

12 got a number.

13 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.

14 Q. Major, you personally, and your colleagues,

15 often used terms such as Lasva Valley, the Vitez area,

16 you used these descriptive terms, Novi Travnik/Vitez

17 area; do those terms in any way coincide with the

18 administrative territory of municipalities within the

19 Lasva River Valley?

20 A. I haven't a clue. I'm sorry. I don't know.

21 Q. So for you, the administrative borders were

22 not relevant, the borders of the municipalities, were

23 they?

24 A. For my day-to-day conduct of business, I

25 split my area of responsibility, as it became then,

Page 10352

1 Novi Travnik, Travnik, Turbe, and that was my sort of

2 area of responsibility, my remit, basically. But I

3 wasn't aware of any sort of administrative borders. If

4 we were referring to any sort of borders, it was our

5 interpretation of the sort of military structure at the

6 time.

7 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic,

9 I think it is really time for you to limit yourself to

10 a proper cross-examination. It is time for you to

11 finish with it. You have taken a lot of time, in view

12 of the content of the examination-in-chief, so will you

13 please finish it off, if you have anything that is

14 relevant, because all this has nothing to do with the

15 witness, and please do so, so that we can move

16 forward.

17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your

18 Honour.

19 Q. Is it true that at Grbavica, the BH army

20 forces had a stronghold south of Grbavica, on the other

21 side of the road, across your camp, across your base?

22 A. The BiH?

23 Q. Yes. Yes.

24 A. No, I wasn't aware of that, no.

25 Q. Thank you. Exhibit Z2036, the photograph of

Page 10353

1 the launcher for Bebes that you took, could you tell us

2 -- roughly, of course -- where and when you took this

3 photograph?

4 A. I couldn't tell you exactly when; obviously

5 during the summer of '93. But it was in the area of

6 Bucici.

7 Q. Vucici [sic], far from the town of Vitez,

8 isn't it? I mean Vucici [sic], the place you

9 mentioned.

10 A. Bucici, just to the north-east of Novi

11 Travnik.

12 Q. Do you remember under whose control Bucici

13 was, the HVO or the BiH?

14 A. At the time, it was the HVO.

15 Q. Do you have any knowledge that similar

16 weapons and devices were used by both parties?

17 A. I believe so, but it was more -- more heavily

18 used by the HVO, I think. That was my interpretation

19 when I was out there. They were the ones who tended to

20 use the improvised weapons more, as I found -- I think

21 they had difficulty in getting sort of munitions and

22 armaments at the time.

23 Q. Another brief point: You said that in

24 October '93, you visited the headquarters where Alagic

25 was the commander of the 3rd Corps in Travnik, and that

Page 10354

1 you saw there some 25 or 30 imprisoned HVO soldiers in

2 the basement. The question is, did you have occasion

3 to talk to any of those prisoners alone?

4 A. No, I didn't. I didn't request to speak to

5 them alone.

6 Q. Did you learn anything about whether those

7 prisoners were visited by the International Red Cross,

8 whether they had any contact with the ICRC?

9 A. I can't specifically tell you if they had

10 been visited by the time that I had seen them or

11 visited immediately after, but I know that the ICRC

12 were around the area at the time, conducting their own

13 visits as well.

14 Q. One more question in that connection: When

15 Alagic showed you those prisoners, were you told

16 whether they were newly arrested, a couple of days ago,

17 or had some of them already spent several months there

18 in detention?

19 A. No, I wasn't told how long they had been

20 there, but my interpretation was, from what I had seen

21 of them, albeit that it would be very briefly, I didn't

22 think they had been there for that long a -- that

23 long.

24 Q. And finally, perhaps, just one more

25 question: Generally speaking, in the Lasva Valley,

Page 10355

1 were both sides fighting to retain or gain control of

2 the main roads running through the area?

3 A. I can't really comment whether they were

4 trying to gain control of the MSRs.

5 Your Honour, if I'm going to answer this,

6 it's going to -- I'm going to be here for another --

7 JUDGE MAY: I think you've been here long

8 enough. Thank you.

9 Look, Mr. Kovacic, we can have other evidence

10 about this. No doubt we will hear from the armies

11 themselves, who are the best people to answer it.

12 Yes.

13 MR. KOVACIC: I was just looking to see

14 whether a British officer could give us an overview.

15 Could I just excuse myself for a minute to

16 check whether I covered this. Just one question.

17 Q. [Interpretation] Major, in your statement I

18 noticed the last line on page 5 you said: [In English]

19 "I handed over a videotape to the investigator about

20 this assault and immediate aftermath." That is in the

21 part about Grbavica.

22 [Interpretation] Did you ever hear or were

23 you shown that video by the Prosecution? Do you know

24 what happened to it?

25 A. The Prosecution have got it, yes.

Page 10356

1 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] May I then take

2 advantage of this opportunity to ask my learned friends

3 across the aisle to give you a copy of that video, if

4 they have it?

5 JUDGE MAY: I suspect you've seen it. We've

6 seen a videotape of the Convoy of Joy. I remember it.

7 MR. KOVACIC: No, Your Honour. It was about

8 Grbavica.

9 JUDGE MAY: Grbavica.

10 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] That video

11 was not shown to the witness during the preparation for

12 his testimony.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Has it been shown to the

14 Defence? Have they got a copy of it?

15 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] The video

16 and the witness can tell you exactly what it is. It's

17 a compilation of stories, as far as I know, prepared by

18 the BBC reporter, and which does not concern solely the

19 attack on Grbavica. There are a variety of subjects

20 which are very interesting, but --

21 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter what it

22 concerns. It hasn't been played in the trial; is that

23 right?

24 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] As far as

25 I know, no.

Page 10357

1 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you could check that

2 out. We have had various videos. I don't remember one

3 about Grbavica, but we've had some stills of Grbavica,

4 and the Defence are probably entitled to receive the

5 video in due course. Perhaps you would like to look

6 into that, Mr. Lopez-Terres, and if there is any

7 objection to handing it over, you can let us know.

8 Otherwise, perhaps you might like to hand it over.

9 Now, Mr. Kovacic, have you got anything more

10 for the witness?

11 MR. KOVACIC: No, Your Honour. I'm done.

12 [Interpretation] Thank you Major. Thank you, Your

13 Honours.

14 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] As a point

15 of clarification, should we communicate to the Defence

16 only the part relating to the attack on Grbavica or

17 everything that is contained in that video?

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, it's a matter

19 for you to decide. If you have any doubt or

20 difficulties about it, then you can refer the matter to

21 us, but on the whole it's probably better to give them

22 everything unless there's some good reason why you

23 shouldn't.

24 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] No.

25 There's absolutely no reason, Mr. President. The

Page 10358

1 totality of the videotape will be handed over. I have

2 two small questions for the witness.

3 Re-examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:

4 [Interpretation]

5 Q. Major Hay, you were asked a moment ago

6 whether you saw Mr. Kordic and Mr. Blaskic at the HVO

7 headquarters in Vitez, and you said, "no."

8 A. That's right, yes.

9 Q. But we agree that after the beginning of June

10 1993, Vitez was no longer part of your area of

11 responsibility.

12 A. That's correct.

13 Q. You no longer had occasion to go to the Vitez

14 Hotel, did you?

15 A. Correct, and that's why I never saw them. If

16 they did meet, I wasn't there.

17 Q. A second question concerning the deaths of

18 the driver of the convoy of the UNHCR during an attack

19 by the 7th Brigade. We agree, don't we, that the

20 driver was not killed due to -- he was killed as a

21 result of the unfortunate coincidence between the

22 attack on the passing of the convoy?

23 A. That's the way we interpreted it, yes.

24 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I have no

25 other questions, Your Honour.

Page 10359

1 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Major Hay, thank you

2 for coming to the Tribunal to give your evidence. That

3 concludes it. You are released. You are also owed an

4 apology for what happened last week when you were ready

5 to give evidence. Thank you for accommodating the

6 Tribunal by coming back this week.

7 THE WITNESS: That's all right.

8 JUDGE MAY: You are released.

9 [The witness withdrew]

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. In relation to the next

11 witness, is there an application which should be heard

12 in closed session?

13 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Yes,

14 Mr. President. Our request has been submitted in

15 writing.

16 [Private session]

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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Page 10361

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2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 [Closed session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

21 1 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,

22 the 25th day of November, 1999, at

23 9.30 a.m.