1 Wednesday, 24th November, 1999
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecution versus Dario
7 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Lopez-Terres.
9 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]
10 Mr. President, the next witness is Major Angus Hay.
11 JUDGE MAY: Are we ready to call him?
12 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] The
13 witness, yes, is waiting.
14 JUDGE MAY: While we are waiting for him, I
15 notice that some of the evidence which he gives is
16 purely corroborative of other evidence. I have in
17 mind, Mr. Lopez-Terres, paragraphs 12 to 18, which deal
18 with the meeting between Colonel Stewart and
19 Colonel Blaskic concerning Ahmici; paragraphs 35 to 46,
20 which relate to the Convoy of Joy; and paragraphs 53 to
21 64, which deal with the attack on Grbavica. Perhaps
22 you could take those matters fairly shortly.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the
1 WITNESS: ANGUS HAY
2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
5 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you'd like to sit
7 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, if I may. We
8 have previously informed counsel for the Prosecution
9 that we do not object to the Prosecution leading this
10 witness with respect to all paragraphs, except for, in
11 the case of Mr. Kordic, paragraphs 30 to 34. Thank
13 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour.
14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
15 MR. KOVACIC: We do the same, and we only ask
16 to avoid leading questions related to the paragraphs 19
17 to 27.
18 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes,
19 Mr. Lopez-Terres.
20 Examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:
21 Q. You are Major Angus Hay, born in 1967?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You joined the British army in 1983, did
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. In the end of April 1993, when you were a
2 Captain with the British army, you were attached to the
3 Prince of Wales Regiment, which had -- which arrived at
4 the time to Central Bosnia?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You succeeded Captain Matthew Dundas-Whatley,
7 who came from the Cheshire Regiment; is that so?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You discharged the duties of the liaison
10 officer with the Prince of Wales Regiment; is that so?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. At that time, you were based at the British
13 Battalion compound which was in Nova Bila?
14 A. That's right, yes.
15 Q. In the beginning of your work, your area of
16 responsibility included Busovaca, Vitez, Zenica Novi
17 Travnik, Travnik, and Turbe; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And shortly it transpired that this area of
20 responsibility was too large for one liaison officer,
21 so in June 1993 that area was divided, was partitioned,
22 and you became responsible for Travnik, Novi Travnik,
23 and Turbe; is that correct?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. The area of Vitez itself was the
1 responsibility of Captain Lee Whitworth; is that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In the initial days when you took over,
5 Captain Dundas-Whatley introduced you to various
6 commanders in Central Bosnia and you also visited those
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In the course of this visit, you had an
10 opportunity of meeting with Colonel Blaskic, who was
11 responsible for the Central Bosnian Operative Zone, and
12 you also were told that Mario Cerkez was the commander
13 of the local brigade in Vitez and that Colonel Blaskic
14 was his superior?
15 A. That's right, yes.
16 Q. You were with Colonel Stewart when you met
17 Colonel Blaskic, and it was after the events in
18 Ahmici. Now, could you tell us: How did
19 Colonel Blaskic react when Colonel Stewart spoke to him
20 about the events in Ahmici?
21 A. The first time that I was introduced to
22 Colonel Blaskic by Captain Dundas-Whatley followed the
23 immediate aftermath of Ahmici. We were in the throes
24 of our handover/takeover at the time, and during the
25 course of the meeting, Colonel Bob Stewart, who was
1 commander of the Cheshire BritBat at the time, came
2 into the meeting, sort of crashed into the meeting, and
3 he was quite emotional, and he started -- or I do
4 recall him saying to Colonel Blaskic, "Tihomir, you're
5 going to have to answer for what's happened in Ahmici,"
6 to which Colonel Blaskic, as I recall, didn't really
7 respond, didn't say anything.
8 Q. We're still in May 1993. At that time, you
9 were asked to accompany two U.N. representatives who
10 were visiting the area of Vitez and Busovaca and
11 conducting investigations about what had happened in
13 A. That's right, yes.
14 Q. And with these U.N. representatives, you went
15 to Colonel Blaskic's headquarters in the Vitez Hotel
16 and, once again, the question about what had been done
17 in Ahmici was raised. Could you briefly tell us: How
18 did Colonel Blaskic respond or react when he was asked
19 questions about the incident -- about the attacks in
20 Ahmici by those United Nations representatives?
21 A. When we visited -- when I visited
22 Colonel Blaskic again with the two U.N.
23 representatives, Colonel Blaskic denied all
24 responsibility, as I recall, and said at the same time
25 that he had instigated his own investigation into the
1 events surrounding the tragedy at Ahmici.
2 Q. You were in Central Bosnia until November
3 1993. During that time, were you advised about the
4 results of any investigation conducted by the HVO and
5 the arrest or perhaps -- about the arrest of the
6 perpetrators of the attack on Ahmici or perhaps whether
7 they had been brought to justice?
8 A. No. As far as I was told, as far as I
9 remember, there was no results from those
10 investigations that Colonel Blaskic said he was going
11 to conduct.
12 Q. Major Hay, you do not remember, do you, the
13 names of the two United Nations investigators, do you?
14 But I should like to show you some photographs so that
15 you could tell us if you can again recognise either of
16 the two U.N. representatives in these photographs, whom
17 you escorted. It is photographs 1576.1, 1576.3.
18 Could you please have a look at those
20 A. As I said, I can't remember their names, and
21 I can't remember the 1576.1 and 2, but I do remember
22 the individual in 1576.3 and 1576.4. As I say, I can't
23 remember his name, but I do recall him, recall that he
24 was one of them.
25 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I should
1 like to draw the attention of the Chamber that
2 photographs 1576.1 and 2 are the photographs of Payam
3 Akhavan, who already testified in this case, and the
4 other two photographs show the second investigator,
5 Thomas Osario.
6 JUDGE MAY: I don't anticipate there is any
7 dispute about any of this, yes. So let's move on.
8 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Major Hay, after your visit to Colonel
10 Blaskic, you escorted these two representatives to the
11 headquarters of the Vitez brigade, and there you met
12 Mario Cerkez?
13 A. That's right, yes.
14 Q. Who was present in Mario Cerkez's office when
15 you came to see him?
16 A. As we arrive -- as we arrived, I remember in
17 the back of the room that there was an individual whom
18 I came to know as Darko Kraljevic.
19 Q. During that meeting, did perhaps the presence
20 of that person appear intimidating or threatening to
21 you or to the representatives of the United Nations?
22 A. The two representatives from the United
23 Nations were exceedingly apprehensive and unsettled by
24 his presence, yes.
25 Q. Do you remember how that man whom you
1 identify as Darko Kraljevic was dressed? What was he
3 A. As I recall, he was in dark clothing and --
4 as a lot of people tended to be out there, but even he
5 more so, sort of armed to the hilt, basically; very
6 overtly armed and very intimidating. And I think
7 that's why the United Nations representatives found it
8 all the more overbearing.
9 Q. Were you and the U.N. investigators told why
10 Darko Kraljevic was present at that meeting?
11 A. No, I wasn't.
12 Q. You were the one who organised that meeting,
13 weren't you, at the time, when asked to do so by the
14 U.N. investigators?
15 A. Yes, I believe I did. I would have made it a
16 day in advance or a couple of days in advance.
17 Q. Do you remember inviting Darko Kraljevic to
18 the meeting?
19 A. No. I didn't even know who that individual
20 was at the time.
21 Q. And were the investigators who were with you
22 who could have invited Darko Kraljevic to attend the
24 A. No, they wouldn't have known who he was
1 Q. What do you think, who invited Darko
2 Kraljevic to attend the meeting?
3 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I think that is
4 really too leading.
5 JUDGE MAY: Major, do you have any idea about
6 that, or not? When I say "idea," do you have any
7 knowledge, as opposed to speculation?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 JUDGE MAY: No? Thank you.
10 Let's move on.
11 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]
12 Q. I should now like to show you two
13 photographs, Major Hay. Could you please tell us if
14 you recognise the person on these two photographs.
15 This is Z1680,1 and 2.
16 A. That's Darko Kraljevic.
17 And that's him again.
18 Q. And it is that individual whom you saw in
19 Mario Cerkez's office during the meeting that we are
20 talking about?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. During that meeting, the question of Ahmici
23 was raised. Could you tell us, what was Mario Cerkez's
24 response when he was asked about his possible
25 responsibility for the acts committed in Ahmici?
1 A. He denied any involvement in Ahmici
2 altogether, and indeed actually turned around and said
3 it was probably the BiH that did it themselves in order
4 that the HVO would get the blame. But then he did say
5 afterwards he would conduct his own investigation as
6 well, or initiate an investigation.
7 Q. After that meeting with Mario Cerkez and
8 Darko Kraljevic, did you have an opportunity to meet --
9 to see Darko Kraljevic again?
10 A. Bearing in mind that at the time, my area of
11 responsibility was going to be handed over sort of in
12 the succeeding couple of weeks, but -- during my tour
13 around Vitez and visits to Mario Cerkez's office,
14 again, I do remember seeing that individual in and
15 around the area of the cinema on a couple of occasions,
17 Q. By "cinema," you mean the headquarters of
18 Mario Cerkez, is it?
19 A. That's right, yes.
20 Q. And after that visit to Colonel Blaskic and
21 Mario Cerkez, did you accompany U.N. investigators when
22 they met with other authorities in Central Bosnia, and
23 in particular with Dario Kordic?
24 A. No, I didn't.
25 Q. During the exercise of your duty and while
1 you were responsible for the area of Novi Travnik, you
2 also came across the name of Jozo Leutar, who was
3 placed in charge of that area by the HVO?
4 A. That's right. He was the local commander in
5 Travnik. He took over from a chap who was there when I
6 first arrived, who I cannot recall his name.
7 Q. Before you were posted to this new area, you
8 already had an opportunity of going to Busovaca and
9 also meeting with local commanders there?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. It was Mr. Grubesic, was it?
12 A. He was the -- he was the local commander in
13 Busovaca, yes.
14 Q. Do you happen to remember what that gentleman
15 was wearing when you met him?
16 A. I do recall that he used to be predominantly
17 dressed in black; black overalls, if I remember
19 Q. And you also had an opportunity of meeting
20 Dario Kordic. Could you please describe the
21 circumstances under which that happened? In Busovaca,
22 wasn't it?
23 A. It was when I was giving -- I use the term
24 "office call" to the -- Grubesic in Busovaca, and
25 Dario Kordic arrived with two individuals, came into
1 the office, and I think it was just for introductions,
2 really, to meet me. I wasn't aware of the meeting
3 beforehand or anything. But we were introduced on that
5 Q. You said that Dario Kordic arrived there with
6 two persons. Could you tell us, who, or rather what
7 were those two persons?
8 A. I presumed, from the way that they were
9 dressed and the fact that Dario Kordic certainly didn't
10 overtly carry any weapons, that they were -- I
11 interpreted them to be bodyguards, basically.
12 Q. And do you remember what Dario Kordic was
13 wearing on that first occasion when you met?
14 A. He was in uniform, in sort of -- in HVO
15 uniform. But I do recall that he had a wooden cross
16 around his -- around his neck.
17 Q. When Dario Kordic came to that office in
18 Busovaca, you did not really know what he was, did you?
19 A. No. But he certainly had a -- had a
20 presence, certainly, to the -- to the rest of the HVO
21 sort of soldiers around him. They obviously held him
22 in some regard.
23 Q. But did you notice anything in particular,
24 how he behaved, how he treated -- how they treated
25 Dario Kordic?
1 A. With respect.
2 Q. Could you briefly tell us about the second
3 occasion when you saw Dario Kordic?
4 A. It was not long after this event, and we had
5 been invited to a cabin just to the sort of south --
6 south-west, south-east, I can't remember -- of
7 Busovaca, way up a track. And it was really a social
8 event, and it was really the first occasion for the new
9 commander of BritBat, Colonel Alastair Duncan, to meet
10 the local sort of Croat leaders, HVO commanders, in and
11 around the Lasva Valley.
12 At that meeting there was Colonel Blaskic
13 with his wife; there was Dario Kordic with his two
14 people, two bodyguards, basically, if I remember; there
15 was Grubesic from Busovaca with another individual whom
16 I cannot remember; there was Colonel Duncan with his
17 interpreter; myself and my interpreter; and a couple of
18 individuals from Vitez in civilian clothes. Santic was
19 there, if I remember rightly, and, as I say, a couple
20 of other local dignitaries, councillors or whatever
21 they were. I cannot remember their names.
22 Q. We shall now move on to another incident
23 which happened somewhat later, that is, in June
24 1993, about something at the time was called the Convoy
25 of Joy. Just in a few words, Major, can you tell us
1 what did you establish about the circumstances under
2 which the convoy was diverted?
3 A. It was no secret that there was a convoy
4 coming up, as we called it then, at Route Diamond, and
5 it was apprehended, stopped at the Novi Travnik -- Novi
6 Travnik sort of junction into Novi Travnik by women
7 with sort of sticks and goodness knows what. They
8 stopped the whole convoy.
9 We were aware of it, but our mandate
10 prevented us from doing anything at that time, and
11 unfortunately we were sort of caught between a brick
12 and a hard place, or a rock and a hard place, and as
13 soon as it stopped, a number of drivers were dragged,
14 taken out of their cabs and allegedly shot
15 straightaway. I didn't see it, but a couple of the
16 BritBat soldiers said they couldn't believe it, and
17 they had witnessed it.
18 Immediately following that there was a bit of
19 an all-for-one spree as the locals came out of the
20 woodwork, basically, and started stripping a lot of the
21 trucks and taking goods left, right, and centre. And a
22 couple of trucks, individuals trucks, were taken away,
23 were driven off by Croats or HVO soldiers, I don't
24 remember which, but certainly I saw a number of people
25 in civilian clothing just having a free-for-all, just
1 helping themselves.
2 Q. Were you able to see the presence of people
3 in uniform near the convoy at the moment when it was
4 being diverted?
5 A. Yes. There were a number of supposedly HVO
6 soldiers in and around the area, and I remember asking
7 them, can't they stop it. They said they could not,
8 you know, they were powerless against the women. I
9 would suggest, rather, they would not.
10 Q. Do you remember whether HVO soldiers were
11 overpowered by members of your regiment on this
13 A. Sorry, could you say that again?
14 Q. Do you remember whether HVO soldiers were
15 beaten by soldiers belonging to your regiment?
16 A. No, not beaten by --
17 Q. Killed. Were they killed?
18 A. Yes. They -- the convoy was eventually
19 allowed to move on again. A semblance of order was
20 established, and we led the convoy through the Lasva
21 Valley past Vitez. But en route towards Nova Bila, I
22 heard that a couple of HVO soldiers had taken an RPG
23 and came out to the lead Warrior vehicle.
24 JUDGE MAY: You have to tell us what an RPG
1 A. Rocket-propelled grenade. And in
2 self-defence they engaged the two individuals and
3 killed them, I believe. But the convoy came to a halt,
4 and again it came under fire from the sort of Croat
5 community or HVO soldiers, and again a number of
6 vehicles were stolen and a number of individuals, I
7 think, were wounded in that encounter.
8 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]
9 Q. If I may comment regarding the translation.
10 My question was whether the soldiers were killed, not
11 beaten, as was translated, and this caused some
12 confusion with the witness. The French word used
13 was"abattoir," "killed," and not "beaten."
14 In your zone of responsibility, from
15 September 1993 until you left, you were able to notice
16 that the warring parties had established a kind of wall
17 consisting of big boards that separated the two
18 opposing forces from the north-east of Novi Travnik to
19 the south-west of Novi Travnik.
20 A. That's right, yes. There was a dividing line
21 all the way down through the centre of Novi Travnik
22 that divided the ethnic groups, sort of the Muslims and
23 the Croat/Serbs.
24 Q. Do you remember that passing close to this
25 area you were able to note that there were a certain
1 number of individuals digging trenches with tools,
2 under the control of HVO soldiers?
3 A. Yes, I do. It was as I was driving through
4 the line of conflict to get -- to go up and see the
5 local BiH commander. I do recall seeing some
6 individual civilians digging trenches, yes.
7 Q. They were indeed under the control of HVO
8 soldiers wearing uniform?
9 A. Yes, they were.
10 Q. Do you also remember that as you were passing
11 close to this group, HVO soldiers tried to conceal
12 these persons who were digging trenches from sight so
13 that you wouldn't see them?
14 A. That's right. As I drove past, they sort of
15 quickly got them down and tried to usher them out of
17 Q. You noticed on the chests and back of the
18 people digging trenches certain objects that looked
19 rather strange to you?
20 A. That's right. As I drove past and as they
21 were being ushered out of sight, I recall seeing they
22 did have something that was very unusual strapped to
23 them, strapped to their backs and their sort of torso.
24 I wasn't going to hang around; I was sort of crossing
25 an active front line, and I drove through.
1 On visiting the local BiH commander, Beslim
2 Zurapi, I put this to him, asked him what was going on,
3 and he confirmed, yes, that they had explosive devices
4 attached to them and that they were digging trenches
5 for the HVO.
6 I asked who they were, and I presumed that
7 they were Muslim, but given his indifference and his
8 response in which he said, "If they're digging trenches
9 for the HVO, then we will just shoot them," I didn't
10 think he would shoot his own side, so I drew a
11 conclusion from that that they were possibly Serbs, but
12 they were certainly doing it under duress.
13 Q. The persons who were digging the trenches
14 were exposed to fire from the BH army, weren't they?
15 A. Yes, from what I could see as I drove
16 through. But moreover, Beslim Zurapi confirmed that
17 and said, "Yes, we can see them digging the trenches
18 and we will shoot them."
19 Q. You noticed that there were wires coming out
20 of these objects on the chest and the back of these
22 A. Yes. That was all part of the -- as I drove
23 past, that's one of the bits that sort of stuck out,
24 that drew my attention to it. It was if they were sort
25 of -- wires come back into the buildings, basically.
1 Q. Did you have occasion, roughly at the same
2 time, to discuss these matters with the local HVO
3 commander, Zeljko Sabljic?
4 A. Yes, I did, and he denied it. He denied all
6 Q. Around the 8th of September, 1993, Major, you
7 were at your camp in Nova Bila when a neighbouring
8 village known as Grbavica was attacked. Could you, in
9 a few words, tell us what you saw in the course of that
10 attack, in a few words?
11 A. The assault started with suppressive fire,
12 with indirect or, rather, direct anti-tank weapon fire
13 and heavy machine-gun fire, and then it followed the
14 sequence of an infantry assault as the soldiers came
15 through and swept through the village, just clearing
16 the whole village. They also were assisted with their
17 own improvised weaponry, notably a system called the
18 BeBe, which is sort of a fire extinguisher packed with
19 explosives and launched from an improvised launcher,
20 which was quite destructive in its own right, and they
21 cleared the whole village, basically.
22 As far as I'm concerned, there were BiH
23 soldiers in there, notably a sniper in the house above
24 our officers' mess in Nova Bila, so it could be
25 construed as a legitimate military target, but the
1 offshoot of that was as well that the Croat families
2 were moved in to occupy houses that still were standing
3 at the end of it.
4 Q. I should like to show you a document, Major.
5 It is a photograph with the reference number Z2036,
7 This photograph, does it show the device that
8 you have described to us that was known as a BeBe?
9 Could you show it to us, please?
10 A. That there [indicates] is a launcher for the
11 BeBe. A bit of imagination is required, but basically
12 you just stuff the fire extinguisher in the top there,
13 and there is an explosive primer in the bottom and it
14 launches it a distance of a couple hundred yards.
15 Probably a maximum of 300 yards.
16 Q. You yourself took this photograph, didn't
17 you, Major?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. This type of launchers for BeBes, were they
20 widespread in the region of Novi Travnik where you were
21 on duty?
22 A. I wouldn't just say Novi Travnik. They were
23 used throughout the Lasva Valley. I wouldn't like to
24 say how many there were. They weren't common, but they
25 were around.
1 Q. You said that the village of Grbavica was
2 cleansed by the HVO. Was it originally a military
4 JUDGE MAY: The witness has given his view
5 about that, explained that there was a sniper there.
6 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]
7 Q. I wanted to specify the following: The
8 cleansing of that village, did it appear to you, as a
9 military man, to be justified by purely military
11 A. It could be considered a military target,
12 yes, in my opinion.
13 Q. The destruction effected in the village, did
14 it all affect military targets only?
15 A. No, it didn't. The feature itself was a
16 military target, but then what ensued afterwards, i.e.,
17 the wanton -- the burning and destruction of everything
18 that was in there, basically, less a few houses, then
19 that went beyond the call of military requirements.
20 Q. In the course of October 1993, Major, you had
21 occasion around October to visit General Alagic in
22 Travnik in his headquarters?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You noticed in the basement of these
25 headquarters the presence of HVO prisoners. Could you
1 tell us what condition they appeared to be in?
2 A. Yes, they were in reasonable fettle, given
3 the fact that they were prisoners of war, but they were
4 being looked after, and they didn't -- there was
5 nothing untoward that I recall.
6 Q. Had you announced your visit to General
7 Alagic beforehand?
8 A. No, he was unaware that I would be arriving,
9 and it just came up during our meeting. And he took me
10 down at my request and just showed me around, and
11 during then is when I was introduced to the prisoners
12 of war.
13 Q. In the course of October '93, in the region
14 of Novi Travnik, you noticed an increase in the
15 frequency of attacks by BH army forces, and especially
16 the shelling of the HVO headquarters in Novi Travnik?
17 A. That's right, yes.
18 Q. You also noted the presence or you heard talk
19 of the presence of the 7th Muslim Brigade, the name
20 that had been given to it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In that brigade, there was a special unit
23 composed of elements considered to be alien to the
24 region, commonly known as the Mujahedin?
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. This unit was stationed in the village of
2 Bandol, wasn't it?
3 A. From the information that we had, and as I
4 recall, that's where we believed that they sort of had
5 established themselves, yes.
6 Q. Were you personally witness of an attack by
7 this unit, and under which circumstances?
8 A. It -- I can't remember the date; it was
9 towards the end of our tour. And the -- following the
10 increase in frequency of attacks, and shelling of the
11 HVO headquarters in Novi Travnik, just to the south of
12 Novi Travnik -- I can't remember the name of the place
13 at the moment -- again, on the main road or the main
14 supply route that we had from Gornji Vakuf, we called
15 it Route Diamond, a couple of miles just south of Novi
16 Travnik, the BiH or 7 Muslim Brigade were massing -- I
17 say "massing" their troops, congregating there in
18 preparation for an assault.
19 And it happened and unfortunately coincided
20 with the southward movement of two U.N. convoys -- a
21 Dutch convoy, if I remember rightly, and a UNHCR convoy
22 -- and the two met. As the 7 Muslim Brigade were
23 crossing the front line into the assault, the first
24 convoy came through, and they received some shots into
25 their vehicles; but the second convoy, unfortunately,
1 one of the drivers received a fatal wound to the head
2 and was killed instantly, and that vehicle crashed.
3 The rest of them carried on moving south.
4 Following that assault, I remember visiting
5 the local HVO commanders -- not Sabljic Zeljko, but
6 actually on the front line itself -- and I personally
7 saw eight -- I was shown eight dead enemy to the HVO,
8 i.e., BiH soldiers; but furthermore, they were members
9 of the 7 Muslim Brigade, and none of them were ethnic
10 to Bosnia. They were all foreigners, either from the
11 Middle East or Africa.
12 Q. During your tour of duty in the region, you
13 were able to see that the Croats, when speaking of this
14 Mujahedin unit, were petrified?
15 A. Certainly the local soldiers around Novi
16 Travnik, yes, that's where I drew my conclusions
17 there. At the mention of them, they got -- they were
18 pretty -- pretty frightened.
19 Q. Were you informed, in the course of your
20 mission, of the atrocities committed by this Mujahedin
21 unit in your area?
22 A. No, I can't recall. I think there was --
23 there were rumours, but I never had any cause to base
24 any of it on fact, that I saw, no.
25 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]
1 Mr. President, that ends my examination-in-chief of
2 this witness.
3 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
4 Yes, Mr. Sayers.
5 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers:
7 Q. Major, please let my introduce myself. My
8 name is Steve Sayers, and along with my colleague here,
9 Mr. Naumovski, we represent Dario Kordic. These
10 gentlemen are Mr. Kovacic and Mr. Mikulicic, and they
11 represent Mr. Cerkez.
12 Major, you've testified that you arrived in
13 Central Bosnia in late April, I believe?
14 A. That's right, yes.
15 Q. And you took over as a liaison officer from
16 the existing liaison officer with the Cheshires,
17 Captain Matthew Dundas-Whatley?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. Just so the record is clear, sir, you are
20 actually a member of the Gordon Highlanders, I believe,
21 and you were on detachment -- or special attachment to
22 the Prince of Wales Own Regiment of Yorkshire?
23 A. That's right, yes.
24 Q. I think you've testified about this, but let
25 me be clear, sir: Initially your area of
1 responsibility was extremely extensive? I think you'll
2 agree with that.
3 A. That's right, yes.
4 Q. And you came to the conclusion that it was
5 actually too much for one liaison officer to handle,
6 and you brought that to your commanding officer's
7 attention, to the attention of Lieutenant-Colonel
8 Duncan; is that correct?
9 A. That's right, yes.
10 Q. As I understand it, sir, Captain Whitworth
11 assumed your duties for the immediate area of Vitez?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. And another officer with the Prince of Wales
14 Own, Captain Bruce Cowan, took over responsibility for
16 A. That's right, yes.
17 Q. Please forgive the pauses, but we have to let
18 the interpreters catch up, and I would appreciate it if
19 you would just give a little bit of a pause between my
20 question and the answer, and I'll try to do the same
21 for you. Thank you.
22 Would it be fair to say that in connection
23 with your duties as liaison officer, Major, after
24 Captains Whitworth and Cowan took over the Vitez and
25 the Busovaca areas, your involvement with those areas
1 was infrequent and only occasional?
2 A. That's -- that's correct, yes.
3 Q. In your view, sir, was Captain Dundas-Whatley
4 a knowledgeable and capable officer, well-liked by
5 local commanders and dignitaries, as far as you could
7 A. As far as I could tell, yes.
8 Q. He was at the end of the Cheshires' tour and
9 presumably imparted to you the knowledge that had been
10 collectively gained by that regiment during the six
11 months that they had spent in Central Bosnia, at least
12 insofar as your initial area of responsibility was
13 concerned; would that be fair to say?
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 Q. You described meeting with the local HVO
16 military commander in Busovaca, commander Dusko
17 Grubesic. Could you tell us how many times you
18 actually met this commander, sir? If you can remember.
19 A. It wouldn't be more than --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Sayers, could you
21 please come closer to the microphone?
22 A. It -- probably -- not more than ten times.
23 MR. SAYERS:
24 Q. Excuse me, Major, I'm being told to get
25 closer to the microphone, and I think the same goes for
1 you. You tend to speak a little softly, so I wonder if
2 you could just speak directly into the microphone --
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. -- for the interpreters' convenience.
5 Let me just ask you a few questions in
6 connection with the view that the Prince of Wales Own
7 Regiment, and you as one of the people attached to that
8 regiment for special service, gained of the chain of
9 command of the HVO. Would it be fair to say, sir, that
10 this subject was discussed between you and your fellow
11 liaison officers in briefings that I believe the
12 commanding officer held every night?
13 A. Yes. That's right.
14 Q. You need to turn the microphone on, sir.
15 A. Sorry.
16 Okay, there we go. Sorry.
17 Yes, every evening we would have a wash-up or
18 a debrief of the day's events.
19 Q. And in the Central Bosnia area, the Central
20 Bosnia Operative Zone, at the top of the chain of
21 command was Colonel Blaskic; correct?
22 A. Top of the military, direct military chain of
23 command, I believe.
24 Q. In the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, I'm
25 talking about.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did you meet with Colonel Blaskic on a
3 regular basis?
4 A. During my initial days of handover, takeover,
5 with Captain Dundas-Whatley, I tried to visit him on a
6 daily basis, and I must have done so, probably -- give
7 or take a day here or there, obviously -- over a period
8 of -- maybe a month.
9 Q. You learned, sir, that Colonel Blaskic was a
10 professional military man with a professional military
11 background; correct?
12 A. I believe he was a former JNA officer, yes.
13 Q. Career officer in the --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- in the army?
16 And in his chain of command, sir, he reported
17 up the chain to the general staff of the HVO in Mostar;
19 A. I -- now you're talking about things I don't
20 really --
21 Q. That was a level above your area --
22 A. Yeah, I wasn't -- yeah.
23 Q. Did you ever have occasion to meet with or
24 deal with the commander of the military police
25 battalion headquartered in the Hotel Vitez?
1 A. Not that I was aware of, no.
2 Q. Does the name of a special-purpose unit
3 called the Vitezovi ring any familiar bells with you,
4 or is that a name that you do not recognise?
5 A. It's a name that I got to know, but after I
6 had handed over responsibility to Captain Whitworth.
7 Q. Now, the forces under Colonel Blaskic's
8 command basically consisted of, if I may describe them
9 this way, municipality-based or territorially-based
10 brigades; correct?
11 A. That was our interpretation, yes.
12 Q. And each one of these brigades had separate
13 commanders; for example, commander Grubesic in
14 Busovaca, who reported to Colonel Blaskic in the chain
15 of command; correct?
16 A. That was the interpretation, yes.
17 Q. And within the brigades, they were organised
18 into companies, and the company commanders, as you
19 would expect, reported up their chain of command to the
20 brigade commanders; correct?
21 A. That's the way I would suppose it would
22 happen, yes.
23 Q. So there's no question that Colonel Blaskic
24 had a number of these brigades under his command; he
25 also had the military police under his command, and the
1 special purpose units, such as the Vitezovi, which I've
2 previously described; correct?
3 A. Whether they were under his command or not, I
4 don't know. I'm sorry, I can't -- I couldn't ...
5 Q. All right. Let me turn to the first meeting
6 that you described with Colonel Blaskic, Major. This
7 was held at his headquarters, the HVO headquarters in
8 the Hotel Vitez; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you recall Lieutenant-Colonel Stewart
11 coming into the meeting and saying, as you've
12 described, "Tihomir, you're going to have to answer for
13 the actions at Ahmici"; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You have a clear recollection that this
16 provoked no reaction initially or response from
17 Colonel Blaskic; correct?
18 A. That's right. But immediately following that
19 I could -- you know, I had a sort of -- I had to get on
20 with Captain Dundas-Whatley, and we left pretty quickly
21 after that.
22 Q. Do you recall, sir, that Lieutenant-Colonel
23 Duncan was also at that meeting?
24 A. I can't, no.
25 Q. Would it be fair to say that you only ever
1 had one meeting with Colonel Blaskic and
2 Lieutenant-Colonel Stewart in the same room, as far as
3 you can remember?
4 A. As far as I remember, just that one occasion,
6 Q. Let me show you a document and see if I can
7 jog your memory as to who was there, if I may.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D130/1.
9 JUDGE MAY: You're now going to put -- this
10 is a diary, is it?
11 MR. SAYERS: Yes, sir.
12 JUDGE MAY: What is the point of putting a
13 diary from somebody else to this witness?
14 Take it back and don't mark it.
15 You can put it to the witness who made the
16 diary. There's no point putting it to somebody else
17 and asking him to comment. The witness has said he
18 doesn't recollect who else was present at the meeting.
19 MR. SAYERS: Very well.
20 Q. If I may, then, Major, I'd like show you a
21 military information summary, so-called milinfosum,
22 milinfosum number 10 from the PWO, dated May the 9th of
24 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be marked
1 MR. SAYERS:
2 Q. Major, this is a document that we received
3 last night. Does this appear to be in the regular
4 format of military information summaries that were
5 prepared by your regiment, as far as you can tell?
6 A. It looks a similar format, yes.
7 Q. Under the heading of "Vitez," Colonel [sic],
8 item number 2, it looks as if there's something missing
9 from this milinfosum. There appears to be a break in
10 the date-stamp numbers on the top right-hand corner.
11 The page is 61298. The second page appears to be
12 61302. So it looks like there were a couple of pages
13 missing. There's also a reference to a meeting with
14 Mr. Cerkez on this day. Did you attend that meeting,
16 A. I have to say -- I'm sorry -- if we're going
17 into specific days now, I cannot remember accurately
18 from one day to the next.
19 Q. That's fair enough, Major. I'd just like to
20 draw your attention to one entry on the second page, up
21 on the top paragraph.
22 The military information officer in the POW
23 [sic], I take it, was Captain Harrison?
24 A. That's right, yes.
25 Q. And would it be fair to say that
1 Captain Harrison compiled these reports not based upon
2 his own personal knowledge but based upon what liaison
3 officers --
4 A. That's right, yes.
5 Q. -- communicated to him? All right. A
6 reference is made to a fairly heated discussion between
7 representatives of the warring factions, and it is
8 communicated to the military information officer that
9 both sides implicitly acknowledge that their soldiers
10 had conducted ethnic cleansing. Do you --
11 JUDGE MAY: I don't see this. Where are we
12 reading from, please?
13 MR. SAYERS: It's page 61302, Your Honour,
14 and it's the second sentence before the end of the
15 first paragraph on that page. The top paragraph.
16 Q. I don't mean to spring this on you
17 unannounced, Major, but would it be fair to say that
18 both the HVO and the ABiH, during your tour of duty in
19 the Central Bosnia area, basically acknowledged that
20 both of their -- that soldiers under their command had
21 conducted ethnic cleansing?
22 A. I cannot recall, but I wouldn't say it didn't
24 Q. That's fair enough, sir. Let's move on.
25 In connection with the questions that you
1 were asked on direct-examination, sir, regarding
2 whether an investigation had produced any results, an
3 investigation into the events at Ahmici, were you aware
4 that Colonel Blaskic had actually asked
5 Lieutenant-Colonel Stewart to put together a
6 multi-lateral commission consisting of representatives
7 not only of the HVO but also of the ABiH, the Muslim
8 side, and also the ECMM and BritBat, to do a joint
9 investigation into the events at Ahmici? Were you
10 aware of that?
11 A. No. I can't -- no. I wasn't privy to that.
12 Q. Were you aware, sir, that the investigators
13 that you escorted in May of 1993, while they were
14 conducting an investigation themselves on behalf of the
15 U.N. Centre for Human Rights, I believe, into the
16 events at Ahmici, were you aware that they had actually
17 identified four individuals whom they had determined to
18 have participated in the events at Ahmici on
19 April the 16th, 1993?
20 A. I'm -- no, I cannot recall. I wasn't privy
21 to their sort of findings or anything. They were out
22 there purely investigating at the time. I wasn't privy
23 to their findings or anything.
24 Q. All right. Do you recall being present, sir,
25 at a meeting held on May the 13th, 1993, at which were
1 present Lieutenant-Colonel Duncan and three political
2 figures from Vitez: Anto Valenta, the Deputy President
3 of the HVO or vice-president of the HVO, accompanied by
4 Ivica Santic and Pero Skopljak?
5 A. I'm sure I was present at the meeting. I
6 can't specifically recall it.
7 Q. Let me just see if I can show you a document
8 that may or may not jog your memory. It's a milinfosum
9 that was prepared about that meeting on that day?
10 A. All right.
11 Q. Milinfosum number 14.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D131/1.
13 MR. SAYERS:
14 Q. Appearing on the first item on this
15 milinfosum is a description of the meeting that I
16 discussed, with Mr. Valenta. Does this jog your memory
17 as to whether you attended such a meeting, sir?
18 A. During the initial days of handover, I
19 attended so many meetings; I'm sorry, I can't recall
20 this specific one. There was so much going on at the
21 time really.
22 Q. The contemporaneous notes that were prepared
23 by your CO reflect that there was -- May the 13th began
24 with a trip to the Vitez Hotel with Angus Hay to meet
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The military information summary, I assume,
3 accurately summarised what Mr. Valenta told you and
4 your commanding officer at the --
5 A. That would have been the case, yes.
6 Q. You see a reference, sir, to the 7th Muslim
7 Brigade of the 3rd Corps of the ABiH. I think that you
8 concluded your tour with some discussion of the
9 7th Muslim Brigade. Would it be fair to say that you
10 heard expressions of concern regarding the activities
11 of this unit throughout your tour?
12 A. Yes.
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
14 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]
15 Just a comment, Mr. President. As regards the notes
16 to which Mr. Sayers is referring, once again it is a
17 diary which was mentioned a few moments ago, which
18 was -- some time ago and which your Chamber refused.
19 That was the request.
20 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. I'm not following
21 this. Your reference, I thought, was to the
23 MR. SAYERS: There was a reference to
24 Colonel Duncan's diary which contained a sentence, sir,
25 that refers to: "Beginning the day with a trip to the
1 Hotel Vitez with Angus Hay to meet Valenta," and my
2 next question was whether this military information
3 summary encapsulated the results of that meeting, and
4 the Major, I thought, answered, "yes."
5 JUDGE MAY: Whereabouts are we finding it on
6 the milinfosum?
7 MR. SAYERS: On the first page, Your Honour,
8 under item 1, "Vitez area," the second paragraph. It
9 says: "During a meeting, Anto Valenta, vice-president
10 of the HVO OZ CB stated that he was concerned about the
11 possibility of elements of the 7th Muslim Brigade,
12 3rd BiH Corps, coming into his area," and then he
13 recites a number of statistics.
14 JUDGE MAY: Well, I missed the reference to
15 the diary. Mr. Sayers, do not refer to the diary
16 without specific leave.
17 Now, let me find -- let's see what the
18 witness says about this, which is the important thing.
19 Major, the second paragraph of the document
20 which we have, the milinfosum, does that accord with
21 your recollection?
22 A. If it's documented, that would have been
23 printed up at the end of the day and that's why it
24 would have gone to print anyway. So I've got no reason
25 to deny that that was the case.
1 JUDGE MAY: And have we this document
3 MR. SAYERS: As the next Defence exhibit.
4 It's marked D131/1, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
6 MR. SAYERS:
7 Q. Thank you very much, Major. Would it be fair
8 to say that attempts were made by the members of your
9 unit, by the liaison officers, to communicate accurate
10 information regarding significant developments or
11 events or meetings to the military information officer
12 insofar as that was possible and those events were
13 contemporaneously or virtually contemporaneously
14 recorded in the -- or summarised in the military
15 information summary?
16 A. That was our modus operandi. That's the way
17 we conducted business.
18 Q. You don't have any recollection, would it be
19 fair to say, other than what is summarised in the
20 milinfosum that we see here, of any statements made by
21 Messrs. Valenta, Santic, or Skopljak; would that be
22 fair to say?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. All right. Two other items in connection
25 with this military information summary, sir, which you
1 may or may not be able to help us with. If you would
2 turn to the second page. It's actually marked "3 of 5"
3 at the top. Right at the top of the page there's a
4 reference to the supposed movements of the 7th Muslim
5 Brigade and the 305th Jajce Brigade. Both of these are
6 identified as manoeuvre units of the 3rd Corps. Could
7 you just let us know, sir, what a manoeuvre unit is?
8 Does it have any special purpose or characteristics?
9 A. My interpretation would be that it's a
10 unit -- how can I put this? It's a specialist unit.
11 Q. Major, I don't -- I really don't mean to put
12 you on the spot. If the term "manoeuvre unit" doesn't
13 have a particular meaning in terms of a term of art in
14 your military profession, please let me know.
15 Would it be fair to say that the observation
16 made by the military information officer that the
17 3rd Corps was preparing to prosecute its tactically
18 dominant position in the Lasva Valley as response to
19 HVO aggressions further south, was that your tactical
20 analysis of the situation or didn't you have one?
21 A. No. That's the intelligence officers.
22 That's what he got paid for.
23 Q. One final question in connection with this
24 milinfosum, sir. Under the third entry regarding
25 events in Zenica, there's a reference to three abducted
1 Croat men having been found, their bodies in a charred
2 condition, in the basement of a burned-out house. You
3 can also read what else is stated in that paragraph,
4 and there's no need to repeat.
5 Suffice it to say, sir, that this is the kind
6 of incident that would have been discussed by you and
7 your colleagues at the commanders' briefing held during
8 the evening of May the 13th or shortly thereafter;
9 would that be fair to say?
10 A. Yes, but at the same -- I mean, I say -- we
11 had a meeting in the evenings, and then anybody who had
12 any specific information would then go and have a
13 one-to-one with the intelligence officer thereafter.
14 So we weren't always privy to what everybody was going
15 on or knowing what everybody else was doing.
16 Q. Were you ever aware of any investigations
17 that were initiated by the ABiH in connection with that
18 particular incident, sir?
19 A. I'm sorry, no.
20 Q. Very briefly regarding the command structure
21 in Travnik, which was covered by your area of
22 responsibility. You mentioned that early on during
23 your tour the HVO commander was replaced but you could
24 not remember the name of the first commander.
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. If I suggest to you that the name was
2 Colonel Filip Filipovic, does that ring a bell?
3 A. Yes, it does.
4 Q. And he was the --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- commander? And the second commander was
7 Jozo Leutar?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know what happened to Mr. Leutar?
10 A. No.
11 Q. You didn't hear that he had actually been
12 appointed Deputy Minister of Internal Affairs for the
13 federation and was blown up in a car bomb in Sarajevo
14 rather recently?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Last year, in fact. You didn't know that, I
17 take it.
18 A. No.
19 Q. On the subject of Mr. Kordic, sir, as you
20 were being taken around and being introduced by
21 Captain Dundas-Whatley, you were introduced to
22 Mr. Kordic, and I believe your testimony was you were
23 not sure how he fitted into the overall picture; is
24 that correct?
25 A. That's -- that was my conclusions at the
1 time, yes.
2 Q. And would it be fair to say that that was the
3 conclusion of the liaison officer who was taking you
4 around and introducing you to various local figures,
5 Captain Dundas-Whatley?
6 A. I cannot remember what his opinion was,
7 but -- I can't remember what his opinion was.
8 Q. It's fair to say, sir, that you rarely, if
9 ever, saw Colonel Blaskic and Mr. Kordic together;
11 A. That's right.
12 Q. Throughout your tour of duty, I believe you
13 never actually saw Mr. Kordic at the HVO headquarters
14 in the Hotel Vitez; would that be fair to say?
15 A. I can't recall ever seeing him there;
17 Q. Would it also be fair to say that you did not
18 attend any of the weekly press conferences held by the
19 politicians and military leaders of the HVO?
20 A. No, I didn't attend those.
21 Q. Would it also be fair to say that your
22 knowledge of Mr. Kordic's position at the end of your
23 tour did not differ markedly from your knowledge of
24 Colonel Blaskic's and Mr. Kordic's position at the
25 beginning of your tour?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You said that you attended a luncheon at a
3 cabin to the south of Busovaca, south-east or
4 south-west, but to the south of Busovaca in May, I
5 believe, of 1993, along with your CO, some local
6 dignitaries, and Colonel Blaskic and Commander
7 Grubesic; correct?
8 A. That's right. Pretty soon after I arrived in
10 Q. And I take it, sir, that that was the only
11 luncheon that you ever attended at which your CO,
12 Lieutenant-Colonel Duncan, and Mr. Kordic were present?
13 A. That's the only one that I was present at
14 when those two were present, yes, that I can recall.
15 Q. Do you recall also being present a
16 representative of DutchBat, the Dutch battalion of
17 UNPROFOR, Colonel Paulus Schipper, I think his name
19 A. The commander of the Dutch battalion. I
20 can't remember.
21 Q. Very well. And it would be fair to say that
22 you do not recall anything of particular political or
23 military significance being discussed at this luncheon
24 because it was a purely social event designed to get
25 people to --
1 A. I think it was predominantly the introduction
2 of the new commanding officer of BritBat to the local
3 dignitaries and commanders.
4 Q. Do you recall, sir, whether Colonel Blaskic's
5 second in command, Franjo Nakic, was also present at
6 this luncheon?
7 A. I cannot remember. There were a number of
8 other individuals there, a couple of other individuals,
9 but I can't remember who they were.
10 Q. All right. I wonder if I could just show you
11 a copy of a milinfosum, number 20, dated May the 19th,
12 1993. It may or may not make reference to this
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document is marked D132/1.
15 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.
16 Q. Just two or three questions in connection
17 with this milinfosum, sir. In the centre of the first
18 paragraph, under item 1, "Vitez," the military
19 information officer records that: "When both Blaskic
20 and his deputy, Nakic, were independently appraised
21 that the fire," sniper fire, I think they're referring
22 to, "was uncomfortably close," once again to the
23 BritBat compound, I believe, "and that the guard might
24 return fire, they agreed that this was the only means
25 of resolving the problem."
1 Do you recall any discussion of a sniper
2 problem and Colonel Blaskic's recommendations on how to
3 solve that sniper problem, or is that a subject that
4 you simply have no recollection of whatsoever?
5 A. I do recall there was -- I do remember the
6 topic came up. I can't remember what was agreed or
7 what we proposed, other than if we were going to take
8 casualties, then we would respond accordingly.
9 Q. There's a reference at the bottom of the
10 first page of this military information summary to a
11 joint commission for Bosnia and Herzegovina that is --
12 whose members are summarised on the bottom of the first
13 page, as you can see. Do you have any knowledge
14 regarding the positions held by these eight listed
15 people, four on behalf of the ABiH and four on behalf
16 of the HVO?
17 A. I can't remember. I'm sure I did at the
18 time, but they're just names now. I'm sorry.
19 Q. Just two questions, if I can jog your
20 memory. Does it ring a familar bell that the fourth
21 person listed under the ABiH, Sefer Halilovic, was
22 actually the commanding officer of all of the ABiH
23 forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
24 A. If that was the case, I can't deny it, but I
25 can't remember. I'm sorry.
1 Q. How about the fourth name under the HVO,
2 Milivoj Petkovic; does it ring a bell that he was the
3 chief of the general staff of the HVO in Mostar?
4 A. Again, I'm sorry, I can't --
5 Q. Very well.
6 MR. SAYERS: This might be a convenient time
7 to break, Mr. President.
8 JUDGE MAY: Have you got very much more for
9 this witness?
10 MR. SAYERS: Perhaps 15 or 20 minutes, Your
12 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now for
13 half an hour.
14 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
16 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers.
17 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Major Hay, we've both been asked by the
19 interpreters to keep our voices up because they are
20 having difficulty hearing us.
21 Just a few final topics I would like to
22 address with you. Turning to the Convoy of Joy
23 incident that you've described, the Convoy of Joy
24 proceeded through Croat-held territory in the midst of
25 of an offensive launched by Muslim forces in the
1 Travnik area; isn't that fair to say?
2 A. Yes, there was conflict going on at the time,
4 Q. In fact, sir, in the summer of 1993, the
5 Muslim forces launched a series of large-scale
6 offensives against HVO forces in a variety of areas,
7 didn't they?
8 A. That's right, yes.
9 Q. We've already heard a lot of evidence on
10 that, and I do not believe that it's necessary to
11 burden the record any further with it, Major. But
12 turning to the offensive in the Travnik area, that
13 resulted in many thousands of refugees, Croats, who had
14 been expelled from their homes; correct?
15 A. Yes, there -- yes.
16 Q. And around the time of the Convoy of Joy,
17 were you aware that there had been two separate
18 massacres of Croat civilians, first in Maljina, where
19 36 Croat civilians were killed and 270 families cleaned
20 out of their houses, and second in the village of
21 Cukle, where 19 civilians were killed and 175 families
22 expelled from their houses?
23 A. I'm sorry, I cannot remember specifics, but
24 yes, I do recall there was the term -- to use the term
25 "cleansing" -- going on on both sides.
1 Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, that that had a
2 large part in the ugly mood demonstrated by the largely
3 civilian crowd that apprehended the Convoy of Joy in
4 the Novi Travnik area?
5 A. I'm sure it contributed to the feelings,
7 Q. One final line of questions in this vein,
8 sir: Were you aware that an artillery shell had been
9 fired from Stari Vitez into Vitez, that it hit a
10 children's playground in the evening of June the 10th
11 of 1993 and actually killed --
12 JUDGE MAY: We've heard a great deal of
13 evidence about this. This witness ceased to be the
14 liaison officer in June. I wonder if there is any
15 point going over it again. We know that this happened;
16 other witnesses have been asked about it, and it
17 doesn't seem to me that repetition is going to assist
18 us, unless there is a particular question relating to
19 this witness.
20 MR. SAYERS: I take your point acutely,
21 Mr. President, and I only have one question in that
23 Q. Major, did you ever hear of any investigation
24 being initiated or conducted by ABiH forces responsible
25 for the deaths of those eight children in Stari Vitez
1 during the evening of June the 10th, 1993?
2 A. In Vitez?
3 Q. In Vitez, yes.
4 A. No, but what I would say, at the time, the
5 ABiH were in no position to conduct an investigation at
6 that time, given their circumstances in Vitez.
7 Q. Were you aware that the detachment in Stari
8 Vitez was a detachment of the 325th Mountain Brigade of
9 the 3rd Corps, headquartered in Zenica?
10 A. I don't know. I'm sorry.
11 Q. Did you ever hear of any investigation being
12 performed by the 3rd Corps, or by anyone on the ABiH
13 side, into the events of that evening that we've just
15 A. No.
16 Q. All right. The Convoy of Joy, sir, was a
17 purely private convoy, I believe, not one which was
18 sponsored by any United Nations organisations, such as
19 the UNHCR or other U.N.-related organisations; correct?
20 A. Correct. It was sponsored by themselves, I
22 Q. Did you yourself see people, civilians,
23 making a desperate grab for whatever they could grab
24 from the convoy and carting things off in wheelbarrows
25 and hand carts and things of that variety?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. One question in connection with the death of
3 the UNHCR driver that you testified about, sir, towards
4 the end of your tour, killed by members, I believe you
5 said, of the 7th Muslim Brigade: Do you recall whether
6 members of that brigade were ever asked to conduct any
7 investigations relating to that death and the
8 circumstances of it?
9 A. No, not -- not during my time. But that
10 instance coincided very quickly with the 3rd BritBat
11 coming in to take over from us, so they may have
12 instigated an investigation. But I do recall a United
13 Nations investigator coming over.
14 Q. This was at the end of your tour, and I
15 believe the Prince of Wales Own Regiment of Yorkshire
16 was replaced as the BritBat component of UNPROFOR by
17 the Coldstream Guards; would that be fair to say?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. And you don't know whether the Coldstream
20 Guards ever prevailed upon the 7th Muslim Brigade or
21 the 3rd Corps to conduct their own internal
22 investigation into that fatality, do you, sir?
23 A. Correct. I -- I don't know.
24 Q. Just a very brief line of questions about the
25 Grbavica assault on September the 8th, 7th and the
1 8th. Isn't it true that immediately prior to the
2 assault on the feature by the forces of the HVO that
3 the civilians of Grbavica had requested the assistance
4 of BritBat to be evacuated to Travnik?
5 A. I wasn't aware whether it was before or
6 during, but I was aware that civilians, for their own
7 protection, were evacuated through to Travnik.
8 Q. All right. That's my point precisely. Prior
9 to -- in order to prevent civilian injuries or
10 fatalities, a request for assistance was made to
11 UNPROFOR, and BritBat, the Prince of Wales Own,
12 actually conducted an armed escort of these civilians
13 out of the war zone; correct?
14 A. Yes. Once the -- when they had -- when
15 battle had commenced, so to speak.
16 Q. And as a result of this, which is very
17 understandable, there were no civilian casualties, were
18 there --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- as far as you know?
21 A. Yes, there were.
22 Q. Now, at the time of the Grbavica assault,
23 Major, there is no question that there was a huge
24 refugee problem in Vitez and the surrounding area;
25 isn't that correct?
1 A. There was, yes.
2 Q. One component of that problem was the
3 concomitant, if you like, of a severe housing shortage
4 because of the large numbers of people flooding into
5 the area; would you agree with that?
6 A. Yes. I mean, that's the way it was. I mean,
7 ethnic sort of groups were coming together into their
8 own sort of ethnic groups, from being displaced --
9 being displaced elsewhere.
10 Q. One final question: In connection with your
11 visit to General Alagic, and the prisoners of war that
12 you saw in the basement of his headquarters, you never
13 actually saw these people again, did you?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. You don't know what happened to them?
16 A. No.
17 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, that concludes
18 the questions that I have for the major.
19 Q. Thank you very much indeed, sir.
20 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:
22 Q. My name is Bozidar Kovacic and I'm a lawyer
23 from Rijeka, and I have colleague Goran Mikulicic from
24 Zagreb, and together we represent represent Mr. Mario
25 Cerkez, the second accused in this case. We don't
1 speak the same language, so I should like to ask you to
2 be kind enough to make a small pause before giving your
3 answer to my questions, to facilitate the work of the
4 interpreters. Also, if you don't understand my
5 question, please let me know immediately.
6 Major, during your tour of duty in Central
7 Bosnia, you replaced your colleague, Matthew
8 Dundas-Whatley, didn't you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And immediately after your arrival, you made
11 a tour to familiarise yourself with a number of
12 personalities on both sides, the HVO and the BH army,
13 people who meant something, so as to be able to do your
14 work properly; is that correct?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. May I infer from that that this was a process
17 of preparation for your work and gathering of
18 information on the subject that you had to deal with?
19 A. Yes, it assisted in getting to know the local
20 commanders, yes.
21 Q. Major, before your actual arrival in Bosnia,
22 did you have any preliminary knowledge about the
24 A. Yes, I had done a bit of book reading. I
25 can't remember the books now, but yes.
1 Q. Major, when you arrived in the Lasva Valley,
2 regardless of the briefings that you had had and your
3 knowledge, was the situation black and white and clear,
4 or were there many grey areas? What was your
5 impression, your first impression when you arrived?
6 A. It wasn't -- it wasn't your everyday
7 circumstance. It was unusual, yes. It was -- things
8 were going on that wouldn't normally go on.
9 Q. One of the things that I believe you tried to
10 grasp immediately was the question of the zones of
11 responsibility and establishment of contact with local
12 commanders in the areas in your area of
13 responsibility. Did you obtain clear information of
14 which commander, regardless of whether he was from the
15 HVO or from the BH army, was responsible for which
16 particular area?
17 A. I had a working knowledge of who was -- of
18 specific areas of responsibility and who were the
19 notional commanders. But what you have to understand
20 is that out there, at the time we arrived, the bomb had
21 gone off in Vitez, Ahmici had happened, and a variety
22 of other incidents had happened, and what you and I
23 would interpret as a normal existence did not -- was
24 not extant out there at the time. Furthermore,
25 regarding your question, there were a lot of
1 provincial, local individuals who may have been doing
2 things on their own without the consent, knowledge, or
3 whatever, of their hierarchy, on both sides.
4 Q. Thank you. But can we agree that from the
5 standpoint of your responsibilities, it was your
6 constant task to establish which unit, which area of
7 responsibility, which assignment each particular unit
9 A. As far as I could -- as far as we could,
11 Q. Thank you. Major, at the beginning of your
12 examination-in-chief, I believe it must have been a
13 lapsus linguae by the Prosecutor when it was stated
14 that the base of the British was in Nova Bila. I
15 assume that you know that the location was Stara Bila
16 or Bila, not Nova Bila.
17 A. It was at the school in Nova Bila --
18 JUDGE MAY: If you don't know, just say so.
19 A. Okay. I can't remember, sorry.
20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Let me try and remind you. During your stay
22 there, you must have visited the hospital in Nova Bila,
23 the hospital in the church, the improvised hospital in
24 the church in Nova Bila.
25 A. No, I didn't visit it. That was the G-5 LO
1 who used to do that. I can't remember visiting a
2 hospital in a church, no.
3 Q. But during your daily meetings of liaison
4 officers that you referred to, did you know from that
5 that there was an improvised HVO hospital in a church
6 in Nova Bila?
7 A. There were numerous improvised hospitals. I
8 remember visiting one in Vitez itself, but I can't
9 remember exactly what building it was in. As I say,
10 there were a couple of improvised hospitals. I can't
11 remember any specific one, I'm sorry.
12 Q. The hospital you mentioned in Vitez, are you
13 thinking of the town itself?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Maybe that, conditionally speaking, hospital
16 was actually in a basement, wasn't it?
17 A. That's right, yes.
18 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, Major, in the
19 course of your stay in Central Bosnia, could you at
20 least roughly tell us how many times you had occasion
21 to meet with Mr. Cerkez?
22 A. Again, not more than ten times.
23 Q. I assume this was mostly in the initial
24 period, before you had divided your area of
25 responsibility with another colleague.
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. In the course of those conversations, did you
3 manage on any occasion to obtain clear information from
4 him what was his area of responsibility or, rather, the
5 area of responsibility of his unit?
6 A. Not specifically from him, no. No. My
7 interpretation was he was the -- sort of the town
8 commander in the immediate area around the Lasva Valley
9 and out surrounding Vitez.
10 Q. Major, you also learnt shortly, I believe
11 from your introductory briefings already, that within
12 the territory of Vitez municipality, which need not
13 necessarily coincide with your understanding of regions
14 or areas of responsibility, that there were various HVO
15 units active in that municipality. Is that true?
16 A. Yes. There seemed to be other factions
18 Q. Did you perhaps learn anything in greater
19 detail about their areas of responsibility in the first
20 period of your stay?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you. I shall now like to
23 ask you a couple of questions in connection with your
24 meeting with Cerkez when you were accompanying the U.N.
25 investigators. You recognised one of them on the
1 photograph. Would you agree that that meeting took
2 place on the 4th of May, the 4th of May, 1993?
3 A. I'm sorry, I can't remember specific dates.
4 Q. But you would agree that it was a short time
5 after you had arrived and at the beginning of May
7 A. That's right, yes.
8 Q. We had a witness here, one of the two
9 investigators, who described in some detail -- he
10 explicitly stated that present at that meeting was the
11 investigator, Cerkez, Major Dundas-Whatley, an
12 interpreter, an HVO security officer at the beginning
13 of the meeting, and then halfway through the meeting
14 Colonel Stewart joined in, but he never mentioned any
15 other British officer being present in addition to
17 JUDGE MAY: What's the question?
18 MR. KOVACIC: I'm just coming to it, sir.
19 Q. [Interpretation] At the meeting in Cerkez's
20 office that you attended together with you and
21 investigators, was this person present that you showed
22 us on the photograph, the one with the glasses, or was
23 someone else present, the other person whose photograph
24 you saw? Can you remember that?
25 A. There were two individuals. The one with the
1 glasses, I remember he was one of the investigators. I
2 can't remember who the other one was.
3 Q. And they were both present at the meeting?
4 A. Yes. They were both conducting the
6 Q. Was that meeting held in the cinema building,
7 in Cerkez's office?
8 A. Yes, it was.
9 Q. In your previous statement you mentioned that
10 nasty-looking man, armed to the teeth, who was present,
11 and whose presence was rather unpleasant, and that he
12 was there throughout the meeting. Are you sure that
13 that person did not leave the room virtually before the
14 meeting began?
15 A. No, I can't remember, but I do remember he
16 was present. Whether he left through the meeting --
17 immediately before we got into the conversation, I
18 can't remember, but I do remember him being in the
20 Q. Let me try and remind you, refresh your
21 memory. I know it was six years ago. Payam Akhavan
22 said that he found the presence of this soldier
23 unpleasant, and he asked Cerkez for the person to leave
24 the meeting, and Cerkez did as he asked and the man
25 left. Does that refresh your memory?
1 A. I'm sorry, I can't remember. All I remember
2 is he was there. Whether he stayed for the whole
3 meeting or not, I can't remember.
4 Q. In your statement you said that it was Darko
6 A. That's right, yes.
7 Q. Had you seen Darko Kraljevic before? Had you
8 met him?
9 A. No.
10 Q. How did you then know that it was Darko
12 A. Because I remember the individual that was in
13 the room, and then whether during the conversation with
14 Mr. Cerkez or subsequently, I got to know this
15 individual as Darko Kraljevic. I got to know his
16 name. But it was definitely one and the same person.
17 Q. In your statement to the investigators, you
18 said that he was dressed in black. If I show you that
19 the witness told us that he was wearing a greyish-green
20 sweater, a sweater worn by German troops, does that
21 refresh your memory?
22 JUDGE MAY: The witness has said that he was
23 wearing dark clothing. I don't know what you're
24 referring to, Mr. Kovacic, as a witness wearing a
25 greyish-green sweater. Is this another witness in the
2 MR. KOVACIC: Yes. Payam Akhavan said this
3 explicitly, and it seems to me there may have been two
5 JUDGE MAY: You see, you're asking the
6 witness to comment on what another witness has said,
7 and I don't know how useful that is. I rather doubt
8 it's not very useful. You can certainly put to the
9 witness: Was it a greyish-green sweater? And, in
10 fact, I will do so.
11 Major Hay, was the witness or might the
12 witness have been wearing -- might Kraljevic have been
13 wearing a greyish-green sweater?
14 A. He might well have been wearing a
15 greyish-green sweater.
16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now let's move on.
17 MR. KOVACIC:
18 Q. And let us round off that part. That
19 individual whom you believed to be Darko Kraljevic
20 attending the meeting, did he take part, any part, in
21 the meeting at all?
22 A. I don't think he did. I can't remember him
23 taking part, no.
24 Q. Major, did you take the floor at the
25 meeting? Did you take an active part in the meeting or
1 were you just an observer?
2 A. No, it was the U.N. investigators. It was
3 their shout basically.
4 Q. And do you remember if your colleague
5 Matthew Dundas-Whatley said something after the meeting
6 when you left that place? Did he say anything about
7 the manner in which Cerkez was interviewed by the U.N.
8 representatives and defining it as cross-examination?
9 A. I can't remember, I'm sorry.
10 Q. Would you remember if your colleague
11 Major Dundas-Whatley showed that he was not very happy
12 with the course of that meeting because he had a
13 different idea about the maintenance of contact? Did
14 he say anything to that effect?
15 A. Sorry, about the what? About the maintenance
16 of contact? I'm sorry, I don't understand. Can you
17 repeat that?
18 Q. Yes. My fault. I wasn't clear enough. As a
19 liaison officer, you had the same role. Of course, you
20 wanted to maintain with the local authorities, with
21 local commanders, relations which would be the best
22 possible, which would be the most correct possible so
23 that you could continue keeping in touch with them and
24 in contact with them. So that was in your best
25 interest, wasn't that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And when the meeting with Cerkez was over,
3 did then your colleague Matthew Dundas-Whatley
4 criticise in any way the tactic and the conduct of the
5 U.N. investigators during the meeting with Cerkez; that
6 is, that it was interfering with Matthew
7 Dundas-Whatley's work?
8 A. I can't remember. He may well have done, but
9 I'm sorry, I can't remember that specific event.
10 Q. Today you testified that you saw Darko
11 Kraljevic on several other occasions in the vicinity or
12 around Cerkez's headquarters, and I should like to
13 remind you that in the statement which you gave to the
14 investigators of the Tribunal in April 1997, on page 3,
15 you say: [In English] [Previous translation
16 continues] ... "Kraljevic together again after this
17 meeting. Soon afterwards, I handed the Vitez area over
18 to Captain Lee Whitworth."
19 [Translation] So which of the two statements
20 is true: what you told us today or what you said on
21 that occasion?
22 A. What is true is I never saw Mario Cerkez and
23 Dario Kordic together again. I saw, rather, Darko
24 Kraljevic. Sorry. I saw Darko Kraljevic in and around
25 the cinema and in the vicinity when I used to pop in to
1 see Mario Cerkez, but I never actually saw them
2 physically together again.
3 Q. While we're on the topic of Darko Kraljevic,
4 let us close that part of the story with just one
5 question more. A moment ago, when asked by my learned
6 friend Sayers, answered that you learnt about the
7 Vitezovi -- about the existence of the Vitezovi, of
8 that particular HVO unit, much later, but did you
9 associate it with Darko Kraljevic? Were you aware that
10 he was the commander of that particular unit?
11 A. Not at that time particular time.
12 Subsequently when this area had been handed over to
13 Captain Whitworth, through the debriefs in the
14 evenings, through the rest of the course of our time
15 there, I got to associate with the name Vitezovi and
16 Darko Kraljevic and the connotation between the two and
17 just through talking to the other LOs.
18 Q. Right. Thank you. During your tour of duty
19 there and those briefings, did you learn anything about
20 the origins of that unit of the Vitezovi, about its
21 background, its history?
22 A. No. I didn't know anything about it.
23 Q. Did you hear ever anything about the
24 existence of HOS units in Central Bosnia, H-O-S units?
25 A. Yes. I was aware of their existence as
1 well. Again, after I had handed over the sort of Vitez
2 area, that's when the HOS and the Vitezovi came to
3 light, and I heard it through the grapevine, so to
5 Q. And you somehow learned that HOS units were
6 more or less present in all the municipalities in the
7 Lasva River Valley?
8 A. I knew of their existence. I didn't know
9 their whereabouts, specific whereabouts, no.
10 Q. Did you ever have an opportunity to hear, to
11 see, or read somewhere that at least until sometime in
12 1993, HOS units also included quite a number of Muslims
13 and some of them were even commanding officers there?
14 A. No. I didn't know anything about that.
15 Q. Let me just go back to that meeting with
16 Cerkez. I have just one more question about that. You
17 cannot recount to us in greater detail the conversation
18 between Mr. Cerkez and the two investigators; is that
20 A. No, I can't remember the content of the
21 conversation, no, I'm sorry, although it did sort of
22 centralise around Ahmici.
23 Q. Thank you. You referred to the convoy, and I
24 do not want to go into that really, but I think there
25 is just one question there. You mentioned women. You
1 specifically mentioned women as active participants, as
2 the actors of that incident when the convoy was
3 stopped, but they were not HVO members; they were
4 civilians. It was quite clear, wasn't that -- wasn't
6 A. Yes. The convoy was stopped by women.
7 Q. Do you think, in view of the request you
8 addressed to the present HVO soldiers, to stop those
9 women and calm them down? So do you think that the
10 army, the military, have any jurisdiction over these
11 civilians, that they are called upon to introduce law
12 and order and do anything with those civilians?
13 A. They were present, they were armed, and given
14 the nature of what was going on in the Lasva Valley at
15 the time, I remember requesting them or beseeching them
16 to sort of do something about it, and they wouldn't.
17 They said they couldn't. As I said earlier on, I would
18 argue the fact that they just wouldn't, not couldn't.
19 Q. During your tour in the Lasva Valley, Major,
20 you could see that there was some civilian police, not
21 only that it existed but that it was active; is that
23 A. There were individuals or units on both sides
24 who were appointed civilian police, but I would have
25 different views as to actually who commanded them and
1 who orchestrated their movements, et cetera. I would
2 say they were controlled by the military at that time
3 because there was complete breakdown in sort of
4 infrastructure and everything. Everything was sort of
5 commanded by the sort of military -- orchestrated by
6 the military commanders around the area.
7 Q. And you arrived at this conclusion on the
8 basis of all the information and everything that you
9 learned during your tour there, is it?
10 A. That's right. On my own sort of observations
11 and experiences.
12 Q. Did you ever see a document or an incident
13 from which it would clearly transpire that the civilian
14 police was under the command of some undefined
15 authority, political authority, if I may put it that
17 A. It may well have been. I mean, when we
18 arrived -- and I can't remember; I think it was in
19 June -- there were a number of meetings going on with
20 ECMM and ourselves, getting the heads of both sort of
21 warring factions together, and there were a number of
22 agreements, pacts, whatever you want to call it, that
23 came out of it. But inevitably, as soon as it was
24 signed, it was broken the next day anyway. That may be
25 a cynical point of view, but it was also fact.
1 So, really, I go back to the point that
2 really, at that time, the military commanders
3 -- "military commanders," inverted commas -- were the
4 ones that sort of had the pool of everything at the
6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, we are now going
7 some way from the evidence in chief, and the witness
8 has given his evidence as to why he came to that
9 conclusion. If you want to contradict it, of course,
10 you can call evidence of your own.
11 MR. KOVACIC: I agree, Your Honour. Just one
12 simple question on that?
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Then let's move on.
14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Same story, same convoy, and then we come to
16 Nova Bila then, and the convoy was stopped again. And
17 on that occasion, I think you said that you were there,
18 and there were even two uniformed policemen; do you
19 remember that?
20 A. I didn't specifically see the -- I didn't see
21 the incident; I heard about it afterwards. But I heard
22 the firing, and I was diverted away from the assisting
23 to escort the convoy as I came across a gunshot-wound
24 casualty, and I took that wounded individual in the
25 back of my vehicle all the way back to Travnik, to the
1 hospital in Travnik. And so I wasn't there on the
2 ground for the rest of that incident.
3 Q. And you don't remember the civilian
4 policemen? Did you see them, or did you not?
5 A. As I said, I wasn't really involved in the
6 rest of that incident, and I was evacuating a
8 Q. Thank you. Now, about Grbavica, only a few
9 questions, please.
10 You mentioned that there was a sniper active
11 in the area. Was that a sniper of the -- a BH army
12 sniper? Was it from two houses, from two white houses,
13 from the hollow or from the crest of the hill behind
14 your camp?
15 A. Yes, I remember there was a Muslim sniper,
16 from the house directly above what we called the
17 officers' mess at the time, used to fire out of that
19 Q. But were you ever informed that those two
20 houses belonged to Serbs who had left the area, and so
21 the snipers had taken them over as their base?
22 A. No, I wasn't aware of that.
23 Q. But you will agree with me that that was not
24 the only sniper in Grbavica, was it?
25 A. I'm sure there were others. I wasn't
1 particularly aware of any -- any more, but it wouldn't
2 surprise me to find out that there were more.
3 Q. Major, Grbavica was a point controlled by the
4 BH army even before you arrived in the Lasva Valley,
5 and I suppose you must have learned that at the
6 briefings in your early days, and subsequently you also
7 could see that?
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. So there is no doubt that that point commands
10 the view of all the other points on all the slopes
11 above the road, that practically it controls the
12 principal route through the valley -- that is, the road
13 between Travnik and Vitez -- isn't it?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. So presumably you learnt and saw in no time
16 that the HVO and civilians were compelled to use a
17 roundabout route, which was not all that easy, if they
18 wanted to move between Vitez and Travnik; is that
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. And you also learnt that on various
22 occasions, people, either civilians or military, who
23 would drive a vehicle and use that road in front of
24 your camp -- that is, Grbavica -- in spite of the risk,
25 that many of them fell victim to those snipers?
1 A. Yes, I was aware, and I saw a number of
2 individuals who were, unfortunately, shot.
3 Q. And when the military operations ended and
4 the HVO took over Grbavica and mopped up the area, the
5 HVO -- the BH army withdrew from Grbavica; is that
7 A. As far as I can remember, yes.
8 Q. However, meanwhile, before the civilians, the
9 refugees arrived, a team, a police team came, and it
10 tried to investigate the tracks, the signs of the BH
11 army's stay there, to collect weapons and see if there
12 were any civilians left. Do you know anything about
14 A. Sorry, can you repeat that again?
15 Q. Do you recall that that same evening when the
16 fighting ended, on the 8th of September, in the late
17 afternoon, to the village of Grbavica, a small civilian
18 police team came in order to take stock of the
19 situation and look for weapons and things like that?
20 Do you remember that?
21 A. No, I can't remember that specifically.
22 Q. But do you recall that that night, a group of
23 men, of civilians, looked for shelter there?
24 A. I remember a group of civilians --
25 JUDGE MAY: What is the point of all this,
1 Mr. Kovacic? This witness simply saw the attack. You
2 are asking him about a huge amount of background
3 detail. I don't know that it's going to assist us to
4 know about this.
5 He said two things: One, that he saw the
6 attack; he's agreed that it was a military target, but
7 he said the destruction afterwards was too great. Now,
8 that's all he said, and you have spent ten minutes or
9 more asking him about a lot of detail that you can deal
10 with in your own case. Now, have you any challenge to
11 the specific evidence which he gave, which was that it
12 was a military target -- presumably you don't dispute
13 that -- or that the destruction was too great?
14 Now, if you want to dispute that with the
15 witness, you can; but we will be here for a very long
16 time indeed if we go on like this, all this detail.
17 The witness simply can't give detail about what the HVO
18 did unless he was there. Now, could you concentrate
19 your cross-examination, please, on those two matters,
20 if you have any questions about them.
21 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry if I did
22 any mistake, but --
23 JUDGE MAY: There's no need to apologise.
24 It's not necessary. But the point is this, that can we
25 concentrate in this case on evidence which the witness
1 gives and can deal with? If you have a lot of other
2 evidence about the background to it -- for instance,
3 about how the civilians had to use a roundabout route
4 -- the time to put that evidence forward is in your
5 own case, rather than these endless arguments with each
6 of the witnesses.
7 Now, could we deal with the matters which the
8 witness himself dealt with.
9 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, certainly, Your Honour,
10 but could I then just tender a document which was
11 earlier mentioned, and it refers to the situation in
12 Grbavica after the military part of the information.
13 JUDGE MAY: Does it deal with the
15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE MAY: And you say it's already been put
17 into evidence, has it?
18 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, yes, in the file, but
19 without the number. If I can remind you, that was what
20 I showed to Witness Whitworth, and he recognised his
21 name and the contact. And then after we asked for the
22 translation, I filed it; it is in the court file, but
23 it is not marked as the evidence.
24 JUDGE MAY: Very well. What is it? A
1 MR. KOVACIC: It is one report of the
2 commander of uniformed police who was there on the site
3 investigating the result of the action.
4 JUDGE MAY: And who is it an investigation
5 by? Which police?
6 MR. KOVACIC: The title is obvious from the
7 stamp, and it has commander of uniformed police, part
8 of police from Travnik.
9 JUDGE MAY: You can put the document to the
10 witness. He may not be able to comment on it because
11 he won't have seen it before, but you can put it to
12 him, provided we do it briefly and then we move on.
13 MR. KOVACIC: There is Croatian text on the
14 top, and the English and French is enclosed. And I can
15 only ask the witness whether he recognises the name of
16 his colleague, Captain Whitworth, who was mentioned by
17 a police officer there.
18 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
20 MR. KOVACIC: In order to speed out, last
21 line in the third paragraph.
22 Q. Could you agree -- or do you know anything
23 about it, that is -- that your colleague,
24 Mr. Whitworth, was called Captain Perry by the HVO, and
25 that he could react to this visit?
1 A. I'm sorry, I'm not slipping shoulders here,
2 but the area of responsibility was Captain
3 Whitworth's. I had no sort of jurisdiction in this
4 area. I can't comment on this at all. I'm sorry.
5 JUDGE MAY: We heard in the evidence that he
6 was referred to as Captain Perry; the witness himself
7 told us that. This witness can't take the matter any
8 further, it seems to me.
9 MR. KOVACIC: Could that document be tendered
10 as evidence?
11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, it's been tendered. It's
12 got a number.
13 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.
14 Q. Major, you personally, and your colleagues,
15 often used terms such as Lasva Valley, the Vitez area,
16 you used these descriptive terms, Novi Travnik/Vitez
17 area; do those terms in any way coincide with the
18 administrative territory of municipalities within the
19 Lasva River Valley?
20 A. I haven't a clue. I'm sorry. I don't know.
21 Q. So for you, the administrative borders were
22 not relevant, the borders of the municipalities, were
24 A. For my day-to-day conduct of business, I
25 split my area of responsibility, as it became then,
1 Novi Travnik, Travnik, Turbe, and that was my sort of
2 area of responsibility, my remit, basically. But I
3 wasn't aware of any sort of administrative borders. If
4 we were referring to any sort of borders, it was our
5 interpretation of the sort of military structure at the
7 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.
8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic,
9 I think it is really time for you to limit yourself to
10 a proper cross-examination. It is time for you to
11 finish with it. You have taken a lot of time, in view
12 of the content of the examination-in-chief, so will you
13 please finish it off, if you have anything that is
14 relevant, because all this has nothing to do with the
15 witness, and please do so, so that we can move
17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
19 Q. Is it true that at Grbavica, the BH army
20 forces had a stronghold south of Grbavica, on the other
21 side of the road, across your camp, across your base?
22 A. The BiH?
23 Q. Yes. Yes.
24 A. No, I wasn't aware of that, no.
25 Q. Thank you. Exhibit Z2036, the photograph of
1 the launcher for Bebes that you took, could you tell us
2 -- roughly, of course -- where and when you took this
4 A. I couldn't tell you exactly when; obviously
5 during the summer of '93. But it was in the area of
7 Q. Vucici [sic], far from the town of Vitez,
8 isn't it? I mean Vucici [sic], the place you
10 A. Bucici, just to the north-east of Novi
12 Q. Do you remember under whose control Bucici
13 was, the HVO or the BiH?
14 A. At the time, it was the HVO.
15 Q. Do you have any knowledge that similar
16 weapons and devices were used by both parties?
17 A. I believe so, but it was more -- more heavily
18 used by the HVO, I think. That was my interpretation
19 when I was out there. They were the ones who tended to
20 use the improvised weapons more, as I found -- I think
21 they had difficulty in getting sort of munitions and
22 armaments at the time.
23 Q. Another brief point: You said that in
24 October '93, you visited the headquarters where Alagic
25 was the commander of the 3rd Corps in Travnik, and that
1 you saw there some 25 or 30 imprisoned HVO soldiers in
2 the basement. The question is, did you have occasion
3 to talk to any of those prisoners alone?
4 A. No, I didn't. I didn't request to speak to
5 them alone.
6 Q. Did you learn anything about whether those
7 prisoners were visited by the International Red Cross,
8 whether they had any contact with the ICRC?
9 A. I can't specifically tell you if they had
10 been visited by the time that I had seen them or
11 visited immediately after, but I know that the ICRC
12 were around the area at the time, conducting their own
13 visits as well.
14 Q. One more question in that connection: When
15 Alagic showed you those prisoners, were you told
16 whether they were newly arrested, a couple of days ago,
17 or had some of them already spent several months there
18 in detention?
19 A. No, I wasn't told how long they had been
20 there, but my interpretation was, from what I had seen
21 of them, albeit that it would be very briefly, I didn't
22 think they had been there for that long a -- that
24 Q. And finally, perhaps, just one more
25 question: Generally speaking, in the Lasva Valley,
1 were both sides fighting to retain or gain control of
2 the main roads running through the area?
3 A. I can't really comment whether they were
4 trying to gain control of the MSRs.
5 Your Honour, if I'm going to answer this,
6 it's going to -- I'm going to be here for another --
7 JUDGE MAY: I think you've been here long
8 enough. Thank you.
9 Look, Mr. Kovacic, we can have other evidence
10 about this. No doubt we will hear from the armies
11 themselves, who are the best people to answer it.
13 MR. KOVACIC: I was just looking to see
14 whether a British officer could give us an overview.
15 Could I just excuse myself for a minute to
16 check whether I covered this. Just one question.
17 Q. [Interpretation] Major, in your statement I
18 noticed the last line on page 5 you said: [In English]
19 "I handed over a videotape to the investigator about
20 this assault and immediate aftermath." That is in the
21 part about Grbavica.
22 [Interpretation] Did you ever hear or were
23 you shown that video by the Prosecution? Do you know
24 what happened to it?
25 A. The Prosecution have got it, yes.
1 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] May I then take
2 advantage of this opportunity to ask my learned friends
3 across the aisle to give you a copy of that video, if
4 they have it?
5 JUDGE MAY: I suspect you've seen it. We've
6 seen a videotape of the Convoy of Joy. I remember it.
7 MR. KOVACIC: No, Your Honour. It was about
9 JUDGE MAY: Grbavica.
10 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] That video
11 was not shown to the witness during the preparation for
12 his testimony.
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Has it been shown to the
14 Defence? Have they got a copy of it?
15 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] The video
16 and the witness can tell you exactly what it is. It's
17 a compilation of stories, as far as I know, prepared by
18 the BBC reporter, and which does not concern solely the
19 attack on Grbavica. There are a variety of subjects
20 which are very interesting, but --
21 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter what it
22 concerns. It hasn't been played in the trial; is that
24 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] As far as
25 I know, no.
1 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps you could check that
2 out. We have had various videos. I don't remember one
3 about Grbavica, but we've had some stills of Grbavica,
4 and the Defence are probably entitled to receive the
5 video in due course. Perhaps you would like to look
6 into that, Mr. Lopez-Terres, and if there is any
7 objection to handing it over, you can let us know.
8 Otherwise, perhaps you might like to hand it over.
9 Now, Mr. Kovacic, have you got anything more
10 for the witness?
11 MR. KOVACIC: No, Your Honour. I'm done.
12 [Interpretation] Thank you Major. Thank you, Your
14 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] As a point
15 of clarification, should we communicate to the Defence
16 only the part relating to the attack on Grbavica or
17 everything that is contained in that video?
18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, it's a matter
19 for you to decide. If you have any doubt or
20 difficulties about it, then you can refer the matter to
21 us, but on the whole it's probably better to give them
22 everything unless there's some good reason why you
24 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] No.
25 There's absolutely no reason, Mr. President. The
1 totality of the videotape will be handed over. I have
2 two small questions for the witness.
3 Re-examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:
5 Q. Major Hay, you were asked a moment ago
6 whether you saw Mr. Kordic and Mr. Blaskic at the HVO
7 headquarters in Vitez, and you said, "no."
8 A. That's right, yes.
9 Q. But we agree that after the beginning of June
10 1993, Vitez was no longer part of your area of
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. You no longer had occasion to go to the Vitez
14 Hotel, did you?
15 A. Correct, and that's why I never saw them. If
16 they did meet, I wasn't there.
17 Q. A second question concerning the deaths of
18 the driver of the convoy of the UNHCR during an attack
19 by the 7th Brigade. We agree, don't we, that the
20 driver was not killed due to -- he was killed as a
21 result of the unfortunate coincidence between the
22 attack on the passing of the convoy?
23 A. That's the way we interpreted it, yes.
24 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I have no
25 other questions, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Major Hay, thank you
2 for coming to the Tribunal to give your evidence. That
3 concludes it. You are released. You are also owed an
4 apology for what happened last week when you were ready
5 to give evidence. Thank you for accommodating the
6 Tribunal by coming back this week.
7 THE WITNESS: That's all right.
8 JUDGE MAY: You are released.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. In relation to the next
11 witness, is there an application which should be heard
12 in closed session?
13 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Yes,
14 Mr. President. Our request has been submitted in
16 [Private session]
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22 [Closed session]
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20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
21 1 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday,
22 the 25th day of November, 1999, at
23 9.30 a.m.