1 Monday, 6th December, 1999
2 [Closed session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
13 pages 11048-11109 redacted – closed session
7 [Open session]
8 MR. NICE:
9 Q. Witness Z: that is what you are going to be
10 called throughout your testimony. Will you look at
11 this piece of paper, which bears a name, and just say
12 "yes" if the name is yours.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Your Honour, it may be satisfactory to deal
15 with paragraph 1 in this way.
16 Witness Z, have you summarised your career in
17 the British army, or have you had summarised for you
18 your career in the British army in the first three
19 paragraphs of a summary served in this case, which I
20 think you may have seen?
21 A. Yes, I have.
22 Q. In mid-December 1993, did you occupy a role
23 in one of the ECMM teams, and again you have identified
24 it in the summary. That team had areas of
25 responsibility, including Travnik, Vitez and Busovaca
1 and Zenica?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. Head of the regional centre being Martin
4 Garrod, and the head of the coordination centre being
5 William Stutt?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Your Honour, I have been told which
8 paragraphs I may and which paragraphs I may not lead
9 on. And there follows a number of paragraphs where I
10 may not lead.
11 When you took up your position, Witness Z,
12 were you introduced to the principal personalities in
13 the Vitez pocket?
14 A. I was, yes, during the week of handover
15 between one monitor and myself.
16 Q. If I give some of the names, you can tell us
17 what you understood them to be. Colonel Blaskic?
18 A. That's correct. He was introduced as the HVO
19 commanding officer for the Vitez pocket and for middle
21 Q. Nikica Petrovic?
22 A. Nikica Petrovic was introduced to me on
23 several occasions, but first introduced as the HVO
24 liaison officer to Commander Blaskic.
25 Q. I see you have a document before you. Are
1 you looking from notes or are you looking at the
2 summary that we have?
3 A. I am looking at the statement, the final
4 summary that was prepared.
5 Q. Unless there is any objection to the witness
6 having that. If there is, please let me know.
7 MR. SAYERS: With respect to this witness,
8 Your Honour, I do not believe that the witness, since
9 she speaks and understands English extremely well,
10 obviously, she doesn't need any kind of coaching
11 material in front of you. So I would prefer that she
12 did not.
13 JUDGE MAY: I think coaching material is
14 exaggerating it. I can't really see any objection to a
15 witness having a statement, when they are dealing with
16 events which happened six or seven years ago. This is
17 merely a summary of what she had.
18 As far as possible, if, Witness Z, you can
19 get on without it, do. But if you find that you can't
20 remember, then that seems proper for you to refer to
22 A. All right, sir.
23 MR. NICE:
24 Q. Darko Gelic?
25 A. Darko Gelic was the liaison officer based in
1 the Hotel Vitez, and he was working alongside Nikica
2 Petrovic to Commander Blaskic in his absence.
3 Q. Mr. Santic?
4 A. Mr. Santic was the mayor of Vitez, who I met
5 once, twice.
6 Q. Before I turn to Dario Kordic, let's turn to
7 the BiH Army side. Memhet Alagic?
8 A. Yes, I met him on many occasions. He was the
9 second in command, I believe, initially, which was
10 called Corpus Brigada, which is 3rd Corps Brigade based
11 in Zenica. And then he took over as the commander of
12 7th Brigade in Travnik in April of '94.
13 Q. Enver Hadzihasanovic?
14 A. He was the 2 IC of 3rd Brigade and took over
15 as the leader eventually. I didn't meet him so many
17 Q. Samir Safic?
18 A. Samir Safic was the exchange officer based in
19 Travnik, responsible for live and dead body swaps on
20 the Turbe-Travnik border and any negotiations with
21 Nikica Petrovic.
22 Q. Beba Salko?
23 A. Beba Salko was -- his role seems to change
24 from day to day. Basically, he was in charge of
25 removing Serbs from the Vitez pocket and also from
1 Zenica, through the Vitez pocket, and was in close
2 liaison with British battalions based in Vitez, again
3 involved in the movement of live bodies as opposed to
4 dead bodies.
5 Q. You will discover, Witness Z, that I leave a
6 pause between questions and answers in order to make
7 life possible and not difficult for the interpreters.
8 A. I understand.
9 Q. I am going to deal with the first part of --
10 sorry, paragraph 6. I now turn to Dario Kordic. How
11 was he introduced, and tell us a little bit about what
12 you first learnt of him.
13 A. I first met Dario Kordic in February, on the
14 16th of February, 1994. I was introduced to him
15 through a series of events. I had been trying to
16 facilitate the --
17 Q. No. It's my mistake.
18 A. Sorry.
19 Q. What were you told he was? What title were
20 you told was associated with him?
21 A. I was told through various sources that
22 Mr. Kordic was the head of the self-proclaimed party of
23 Herceg-Bosna based in Mostar, but was actually running
24 the Vitez pocket part of Herceg-Bosnia. I was told
25 that he was a politician.
1 Q. We'll come to your first meeting with him at
2 the appropriate stage on a logical narrative. But
3 you've given how he was described to you. Was he
4 spoken of in similar terms or in different terms by the
5 HVO liaison officers?
6 A. He was never referred to as such, as a
7 military commander, although it was mentioned from time
8 to time that he had a position within the HVO. But,
9 moreover, he was referred to as a political leader,
10 especially one for the Vitez pocket. As a political
12 Q. Please help us now with helicopter movements
13 in general. We'll come to helicopter movements in
14 particular cases later, but in general -- it's the
15 first half of paragraph 7 and paragraph 8. Tell us
16 about it, without referring to notes, if you can,
17 because it will make your testimony much more vital.
18 A. In general, I was aware, as were many other
19 airfield monitors, which of course I was one of to
20 start with, that there was sufficient helicopter
21 movement within the area of the Vitez pocket. There
22 was absolutely no way that someone could move by road
23 from Herceg-Bosnia area into Vitez. And the only
24 guaranteed safe movement was by night, and was by
25 helicopter movement. That was done by the HV and the
2 Q. When, so far as you were concerned, were
3 these helicopter movements first taking place?
4 A. I was aware of them taking place on my
5 arrival to the mission in August of 1993, but I didn't
6 actually physically see any helicopter movements in the
7 Vitez pocket until March of '94. But I was aware of
8 them flying, because they were breaking the U.N. no-fly
9 zone at the time, for which I was responsible for
11 Q. What were your sources of information about
12 helicopter movements, and when you've dealt with that,
13 can you tell us what, if anything, you've discovered
14 about the use of particular figures in the area of
16 A. I was aware of helicopter movement because,
17 prior to moving to Zenica, to middle Bosnia, I spent
18 some time as an airfield monitor working with the U.N.,
19 a central nerve office, if you like, based in Zagreb.
20 At that point they showed me how easy it was for the
21 helicopters to move in and out of the base in Split,
22 near Split, called basa Divulje, from a JNA barracks to
23 middle Bosnia, because they are able to fly under their
24 radar zone, therefore avoiding detection.
25 Sorry, could you repeat the second part of
1 the question.
2 Q. Your sources of intelligence or information
3 about whether helicopters were being used, and by whom
4 they were being used, and then tell us by whom they
5 were being used.
6 A. Vitez pocket is a very small area, and
7 therefore those that were unable to move out of it had
8 to do so by either road or by air. As the road was
9 unaccessible -- only by the locals, rather. It was
10 only accessible by ECMM and the U.N. and the military
11 and a couple of non-government organisations. It was
12 common knowledge -- and when I say "common knowledge,"
13 I base my sources on my interpreter, other interpreters
14 that were working for ECMM, of which there are about 10
15 or 15, and I was basing my sources -- basing my
16 information on sources that were working in the Hotel
17 Vitez. And also I was being questioned constantly
18 about helicopter movement by the army of BiH and
19 General Alagic himself.
20 Q. Your common -- sorry. Wait for the
21 interpreter. And your common knowledge was to what
22 effect about the use of those helicopters?
23 A. I was aware, right from the start of my job,
24 that the helicopters were flying in and out of Bosnia
25 with or without guaranteed passage, as booked by them
1 through ourselves, ECMM, to the U.N., to allow them
2 safe passage. They were going with permission and
3 without permission. Of that that I know, because I was
4 the airfield monitor in Split. And on many occasions
5 I'd sit waiting for them to come back and they were
6 very late.
7 Then I would get reports that they had been
8 seen flying over middle Bosnia, doing things that they
9 hadn't booked to do. In other words, they were
10 dropping off parachuters and other bits of equipment.
11 So I knew that they were applying for these
12 medical evacuations to be known as Medivacs. And it
13 transpired at a later stage that these Medivacs were
14 actually allowing them to do other things under the
15 guise of a Medivac. I was always very suspicious of
16 what they were doing, but having moved into middle
17 Bosnia in December, or November of '93, it didn't take
18 very long to realise that they were actually using
19 their helicopters for other things, for troop
20 movements, and movement of staff in and out of the Nova
21 Bila hospital in the Vitez pocket.
22 Q. As to the particular personalities you've
23 already spoken of -- I am going to pause, because I've
24 broken my rule about the interpreters.
25 As to particular personalities you've spoken
1 of, was anything said about them and their use of
3 A. It was again common knowledge, and often
4 referred to in conversation, that Mr. Kordic was using
5 the helicopters, was being transported around in the
6 helicopters to meet other members of the Herceg-Bosnia
8 Q. Whose helicopters were they?
9 A. They belonged to both the HV, who were using
10 the helicopters from -- based in basa Divulje, where my
11 other team of airfield monitors are based, and also the
12 HVO, whose base was in Posusje, not far from Mostar.
13 Q. Did you ever speak to pilots of any of those
15 A. Yes. Before I came to Zenica, I spent a lot
16 of time with the pilots, because it was my daily work
17 to liaise with them. And I flew with them on a few
18 occasions, but not right into middle Bosnia, just to
19 the periphery. I never asked them who they were flying
20 exactly, because at that point I hadn't quite worked it
21 out. And by the time I realised what was going on,
22 they were down in Split and I was in Zenica. But I can
23 come on to an incident at a later time.
24 Q. Yes. I'll deal with paragraphs 10 to 15 in
25 their right chronological position, and turn to
1 paragraph 16.
2 Was there fighting in Santici, of which you
3 became aware in January 1994?
4 A. Yes, that's correct. I went on leave back to
5 the U.K. in December of '93. And when I came back, I
6 was aware that heavy fighting had broken out in the
7 Santici area, and actually, I was unable to make my way
8 back to Zenica on the day of my return from leave,
9 because the main supply route that went through Santici
10 was blocked because of fighting that had broken out and
11 had been led by the army of BiH, 3rd Brigade, and
12 Croats were trying to defend that area.
13 Q. Was there alleged Mujahedin involvement? Did
14 you verify it? And what happened to the fleeing
16 A. I was aware of Mujahedin involvement within
17 the whole area. I had seen them myself. I had run
18 across them a few times. And during the fighting in
19 Santici, one of the interpreters, who was working in
20 Zenica, actually recognised one of the so-called
21 Mujahedin. He had been at school with him. He was
22 Muslim too.
23 They were the spearhead, so-called spearhead
24 of any BiH movement across middle Bosnia. They weren't
25 backed by General Alagic. He had no respect for them
1 and was quite keen for them to go. And when they
2 attacked Santici, the Croat families were forced to
3 flee to -- mostly to Zenica, to Father Stephan, who was
4 the leader of the Croat church in Zenica, who I've
5 since spoken to on a few occasions. I went to Zenica
6 to find out where the families were, to check to see
7 that they had food and clothing, and to do a head
8 count. And I was also aware of at least two members of
9 the Santici population that didn't manage to flee. I
10 was witness to their bodies, and they were my first war
12 Q. We've used the word "Mujahedin," but perhaps
13 it would be helpful for you to give us your definition
14 or the way you use that word.
15 A. Before I came to the Vitez pocket, I had no
16 idea what a Mujahedin looked like or even what his
17 beliefs, if any, were. While I was in the Vitez
18 pocket, I took it upon myself to read the Koran; not a
19 riveting read, but it actually gives you an insight
20 into what they believe. And the whole concept of
21 Mujahedin in Bosnia, or be it anywhere else, is the war
22 of El Jahid, and when I came across Mujahedin dead
23 bodies, I realised that they had no regard for anybody
24 else's life, not even their own.
25 They waged a war of wanton destruction in the
1 area. They didn't care who they dealt with en route.
2 As I say, they had no regard for themselves. I know
3 that the Croats were absolutely terrified of them, and
4 so was I.
5 Q. So are you using the term to define where
6 somebody comes from or are you using the term to define
7 somebody according to what he has done?
8 A. I'm using the term "Mujahedin" because that's
9 how they were referred to by the army of BiH leader in
10 that area, Mehmet Alagic. He described them as such.
11 There were two brigades of Mujahedin, one
12 based in Travnik itself, which I believe, without
13 checking from my notes, is the 37th Brigade, which were
14 not so fundamentalist in their beliefs as 7th Mountain
15 Brigade, who were based behind Guca Gora monastery.
16 They were not locals. They were fairly
17 dark-skinned and looked like they had come from some
18 parts of Africa. They didn't speak the local language
19 very well, and they moved together and were protected
20 by various imams in and around the area. I knew them
21 to be Mujahedin only because of their distinguishing
22 features and because the Croats and the Muslims
23 referred to them as such.
24 Q. Thank you. We can turn to paragraph 17 to
25 20, which I'm told I can lead on, and therefore,
1 Witness Z, we can deal with this specifically or
2 comparatively swiftly.
3 On the 6th of January, 1994, did you visit a
4 mass grave in Dubravica which the HVO said was the
5 result of Bosnian Muslim atrocities, the claim being
6 that there were 27 bodies in the grave?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. Restrictions of time and the fact that you
9 were in a fragile ceasefire and, therefore, a dangerous
10 place, meant that only eight bodies could be exhumed,
11 all male, all apparently of fighting age and clad in
12 military clothing, at least to the extent of one item
13 of clothing per body?
14 A. The bodies were in a state of decay; probably
15 about a month, not even that. They had been buried in
16 the garbage pit just outside of Poculica, which was a
17 typical dumping area for dead bodies.
18 We went with a British Battalion commander or
19 a section commander, and we were right in the middle of
20 the ceasefire between -- on BiH territory. It wasn't a
21 comfortable area to stay, but I can confirm that I
22 stood and watched at least eight bodies being dug up.
23 They had all been bagged and tagged with a number
24 beforehand by the British, and this was just us
25 checking to make sure that they were -- hadn't been
1 tortured, that they had just suffered gunshot wounds.
2 Q. And I think you found nothing on those
3 particular eight bodies to suggest that they had died
4 other than as war casualties, and therefore nothing to
5 confirm the HVO's allegations of BiH atrocities?
6 A. That's correct. With these bodies, I found
7 absolutely no reason to lead me to think that they had
8 been tortured, as alleged by the HVO.
9 Q. And following that exercise, did your ECMM
10 team set up a body exchange between the HVO and the
12 A. That's correct, we did, yes.
13 Q. And in mid-January '94, did General Alagic of
14 the ABiH call you to investigate information that he
15 had been given about five of his soldiers being
16 tortured in HVO trenches, as a result of which you
17 inspected five bodies shown by the HVO in a disused
18 school in Vitez with two other people, a Captain York
19 and Fred Schroeder, you then being told by Nikica
20 Petrovic of the HVO that the identity card would be
21 placed on the bodies concerned in order to identify the
22 victims, but you similarly found on this side that they
23 had gunshot wounds to the head, it being difficult to
24 identify faces, and you were dependent on Petrovic's
25 word that the identity cards and the bodies connected?
1 A. That's correct. I went on the Friday to go
2 and --
3 Q. If it's correct and it doesn't need
4 amplification, because I'm able to lead this evidence,
5 we can deal with this in that way.
6 A. That's correct, yes.
7 Q. If I miss something important, amplify.
8 Otherwise, for this and the next paragraph, just
9 acknowledge the accuracy.
10 It wasn't possible to get a pathologist, and
11 your colleagues concluded that the gunshot wounds were
12 not unusual in time of war and that there was no sign
13 of torture. This was explained to General Alagic, and
14 he then agreed to participate in a body exchange?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. That exchange was organised for the 1st of
17 February of '94?
18 A. That's correct, yes.
19 Q. You were told that the bodies produced by the
20 BiH had been tortured, as he suspected, and did you
21 view those bodies at the mosque in Poculica?
22 A. May I answer that?
23 Q. Yes, do.
24 A. General Alagic was claiming that the bodies
25 had actually been tortured, but when I had seen them
1 prior to the body swap, the bodies that I had been
2 shown were not tortured.
3 Three days later, on the 4th of February,
4 when I went to Poculica, to the mosque, I was shown
5 five very badly-tortured bodies. They weren't the ones
6 that I had been shown in the school. The reason I went
7 to Poculica is because that's where they came from.
8 They were being delivered back to the families.
9 Q. So by whom had you been misled?
10 A. Croats had misled me on this occasion.
11 Q. By producing to you bodies that showed no
12 torture, although on exchange it was discovered that
13 they were -- the ones produced on exchange were
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. And, of course, you had only been in a
17 position to see eight of the alleged 27 bodies, if it
18 was 27 bodies in the mass grave?
19 A. There were 27 bodies in the mass grave,
20 because come the day of the body swap on the 1st of
21 February, I was able to see all of them lying on the
22 ground. But because we had the television cameras for
23 this from the BBC, and because it was an exceptionally
24 cold day, and because I was standing between the lines
25 of the army of BiH and the HVO, who had already shot at
1 me earlier, I wasn't really going to hang around. So
2 we did the body swap as quickly as possible. On
3 reflection, I think I made a mistake.
4 Q. Did you attempt to investigate these deaths
5 over the following weeks, but what was Petrovic's
6 attitude and what was Alagic's attitude?
7 A. I think it's relevant to say here that Alagic
8 tasked me to go and see these five bodies before the
9 swap because he had been notified from a family based
10 in Poculica that they had actually seen these five
11 bodies being paraded on Croatian television, which
12 because of the proximity and it was so close to
13 Poculica, people in Poculica were able to pick up the
14 TV up there, higher up in the valley, and they had
15 actually seen these chaps being paraded. So I spent
16 the next five weeks asking anybody that would talk to
17 me about the allegations. I even went to the Hotel
18 Vitez to see the TV producer who was working for Martin
19 Bell at the time to ask him for footage.
20 Q. Any success?
21 A. Nothing.
22 Q. And the ultimate attitude of Petrovic?
23 A. Petrovic said, "At least Alagic got his
24 bodies back." I knew at that point I was going to get
25 nowhere. I had spent five weeks, and I wasn't prepared
1 to waste any more time on it.
2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, there are small
3 bundles of documentary exhibits which are in
4 chronological order. If they can be distributed now,
5 including one set to the witness.
6 The documents, may they please be under
7 seal? They needn't go on the ELMO for the usual
8 reasons. We'll be turning to them only briefly. If
9 the witness can have them herself.
10 Q. Paragraph 10. You did meet Kordic. Tell us
11 about the first meeting and when it happened.
12 A. I first met Mr. Kordic on the 16th of
13 February in what was described as his Daca in
14 Busovaca. I went there with my boss, Mr. William
15 Stutt, my interpreter, and I went to visit him because
16 I had been directed to go and visit him or have an
17 interview with him in regard to a case that I was
18 handling. I made an appointment, and I went.
19 Q. If we look at the documents that have been
20 placed before you, the first one, 1362,1, the second,
21 1364,2, and the third, 1375,1, deal with the matters
22 we've just covered about the dead bodies. But since
23 it's been possible to lead that information as
24 unchallenged, although the documents can be produced,
25 we needn't deal with them in detail?
1 A. That's correct, yes.
2 Q. And so we come to your first meeting on the
3 16th of February of 1994, and that is the next exhibit,
4 1377, the second sheet of it and, indeed, the last
5 substantive paragraph. The topic of your meeting at
6 his Daca?
7 A. I wanted to meet Mr. Kordic because I was
8 trying to move the imam of Busovaca away from
9 Busovaca. I had been given him as a case, and I had
10 visited him on several occasions. He was hungry, his
11 family were being intimidated, and he was under
12 so-called house arrest. The imam was very frightened
13 and very concerned about members of his family who had
14 been intimidated, bullied, harassed, verbally abused.
15 He had had his mosque blown up.
16 Q. All right.
17 A. He wanted to leave the area. I asked
18 Mr. Kordic, when it was my turn to speak, if he would
19 grant me passage to remove the imam from Busovaca.
20 Q. A few questions. Deal with them all
21 compendiously but briefly.
22 When he received you, was he alone or with
23 others, what was his manner, and then tell us what he
24 said about the imam.
25 A. When I arrived at the so-called Daca in
1 Busovaca, I was met by six or seven men with short hair
2 and pale green uniforms on, pale green uniforms. They
3 had AK-47s and pistols on their body. They moved
4 myself and Mr. Stutt out of the vehicle in a hurried
5 manner and moved me inside, where I was introduced to
6 Mr. Kordic. His manner was rather menacing and that of
7 a bully, and I did feel intimidated.
8 Q. His response or attitude to the particular
9 problem of the imam when, as you said, it was your turn
10 to speak?
11 A. Very offhand and almost laughing at my
12 request, as if I had just asked the stupidest
13 question. He was not going to help me with my request,
14 and he went on to explain why not, which didn't make
15 much sense, and I was rather dismissed out of hand.
16 But I wasn't going to be put down, so I went at him
17 again. In the end, he said that he'd think about it
18 but that he was a pragmatist and that he didn't see why
19 he should honour my request.
20 Q. We see this meeting summarised in the second
21 sheet of 1377 under the paragraph beginning: "During a
22 visit to Dario Kordic ..." We turn on from that
24 The next document, 1378,1, which reflects the
25 same meeting, is that right, at Item 4(VI), or is this
1 another meeting on the following day?
2 A. No. 1378,1 refers to me going to see the
3 imam the following day to give him the results of my
4 meeting with Mr. Kordic, because I promised the imam
5 that I would go and see Mr. Kordic on his behalf.
6 Q. So the impasse remained. The imam reiterated
7 his request?
8 A. I apologised to the imam and told him that I
9 wasn't here to move him and his family. And he was
10 very sad about that, but I told him to hang on because
11 I hadn't given up at that point and that I was going to
12 see Mr. Kordic again as soon as he was back in the
13 pocket and as soon as I had the time to go and see
14 him. In fact --
15 Q. The next document is 1381,1 for the 19th of
16 February, and it says simply that, under 4(VI), you
17 arranged a meeting with Dario Kordic for Monday, the
18 21st of February?
19 A. That's correct, we did.
20 Q. Where was he at the time; did you know?
21 A. No. I was just told by the liaison officers
22 in the Hotel Vitez that Mr. Kordic was not currently in
23 the pocket.
24 Q. And by "pocket," does that refer to the
25 overall pocket surrounded as it might have been or to
1 some other more local area?
2 A. No, sorry. The Vitez area of Busovaca-Vitez
3 itself and the area towards Travnik, which was
4 surrounded, as you quite rightly say, was known in
5 those days as the Vitez pocket.
6 Q. So that "out of pocket" meant that he had
7 been able to travel, by some means, elsewhere?
8 A. That's correct, yes.
9 Q. 1386,1 is the next document, and I think you
10 can help us here with something about helicopters in
11 some detail, but also you can deal perhaps with the
12 visit to Mr. Kordic on the 21st of February.
13 The 21st of February, do you have a note of
14 that meeting or not?
15 A. I don't, no. I seem to have lost my notes,
16 the 21st of February. But I have recorded it on -- I
17 make reference to it on the 23rd of February, which is
18 one of the exhibits.
19 Q. And putting things in order, did you visit
20 him on the 21st of February, as we can see from the
21 next following document, 1386,2, I think?
22 A. I did, yes.
23 Q. And what had his attitude been on the 21st?
24 A. When I visited him on the 16th, as I said,
25 his mood was fairly menacing and fairly aggressive
1 towards me. When I visited him again on the 21st, he
2 was almost in a carnival mood. He was fairly joyous
3 and fairly buoyant. I didn't quite know what was going
4 on, but I was quite pleased to see a change in his
5 manner. But he still didn't answer the question about
6 the imam.
7 Q. And at that stage, were you able to work out
8 why there was this apparent change?
9 A. I had no idea.
10 Q. In due course, you were able to put a reason
11 to it, and we'll come to that in its sequence.
12 But as you helpfully remind me, it's on your
13 report of the 23rd of February, under, "2. Political
14 Situation," that you hark back to Monday's meeting with
15 Kordic and ECMM and UNPROFOR; is that right?
16 A. That's correct, yes.
17 Q. Well, then let's, having dealt with that
18 meeting, come back to Document 1386,1 and to something
19 that happened, I think, on the 22nd of February
20 concerning a helicopter.
21 A. Would you like me to expand?
22 Q. Yes, please.
23 A. Okay. Part of my monitoring duties in the
24 Vitez pocket was to visit both Croats and Muslims,
25 which I tried to do with a great deal of impartiality.
1 One of my areas was the Nova Bila church in the area of
2 Nova Bila. The church had been turned into a field
3 hospital, because Croats had no chance to use the
4 facilities of a hospital in Vitez pocket. Both
5 hospitals were outside. One was in Travnik and one was
6 in Zenica. So they had to make do with what they could
7 get. And they turned the church into a field hospital
8 in Nova Bila.
9 Because they were surrounded and because they
10 were constantly under fire from snipers who were
11 Muslims and Serbs from higher areas, the casualties in
12 the Nova Bila field hospital were beyond my belief. A
13 lot of the casualties were not always there, when I
14 came back for a second visit. At first I had assumed
15 that they had died. But when I got to know the priest
16 that was running the Nova Bila hospital, a Franciscan
17 priest, he told me they were actually being rotated
19 When I asked him to expand about "rotating
20 out," he said that helicopters would come in the night
21 and pick up the casualties if they could pay to leave.
22 Well, around about the 20th of February I was
23 aware that my airfield monitors based in Split had been
24 approached by a nurse from England called Sally Baker.
25 It was her proposal to bully her way into Nova Bila to
1 take out injured children from the Nova Bila hospital.
2 But she was unable to get to them by road, because the
3 fighting was so intense, and it was totally out of the
5 I since found out, after my airfield monitors
6 tipped me off, so to speak, that Sally Baker had
7 actually flown in with the help of an MI8, which is a
8 Russian-built helicopter, into the quarry at Vitez, a
9 well-known landing site for these helicopters, and had
10 achieved her aim of rescuing these children and had
11 flown out again.
12 And as a result of her arrival in the pocket,
13 senior Croatian doctors had also arrived at the Nova
14 Bila hospital. And I saw them. And I noticed that
15 some of those children had in fact gone, and that some
16 of the soldiers had in fact gone too.
17 So I was aware of the fact that there was
18 helicopter movement, and it was confirmed initially by
19 this incident.
20 That's it.
21 Q. And were you aware of how Kordic had -- if he
22 had been out of the pocket -- returned at about this
23 time or not?
24 A. I didn't physically see him return, or even
25 depart. But the mere fact that these helicopters were
1 operational, and the very fact that we couldn't use any
2 of the roads for these known players, if you want to
3 refer to them as such, there was actually only one way
4 in and one way out. And, as I said, it was common
5 knowledge by the locals, those that lived in the Vitez
6 pocket, that the helicopter was the one, almost
7 reliable, route in and out.
8 Q. Next document, please, 1387,1, which is dated
9 the 28th of February. The second sheet under
10 "humanitarian activity" records your team's visit to
11 the chief imam of Zenica. And comparative success
12 there required a visit to be agreed with and then
13 arrangements to be agreed by Kordic. Is that correct?
14 A. That's correct. Mr. Kordic, I felt, in my
15 first meeting, was only going to allow me to move the
16 imam of Busovaca out, if he thought that he was going
17 to let it happen, and if I had something to bargain
18 with. So my bargaining tool was Father Stephan from
19 Zenica, a Croat priest who I was going to bring in to
20 the Vitez pocket so that he could visit his people on
21 the ground on the Vitez pocket. And I would pull the
22 imam of Busovaca from Vitez pocket to Zenica.
23 Q. Your next meeting with Kordic was when?
24 A. Mid-March sometime. But it wasn't my
25 meeting; I was just taking the notes at that meeting.
1 Q. Tell us about it, in any event, even if you
2 have to do so from -- substantially from memory.
3 A. We've moved on a bit now from February and
4 the Federation has been signed, and the mood within the
5 pocket and the army BiH has changed somewhat, but it
6 seems that it's meeting with resistance from Mr. Kordic
7 and from Mr. Alagic. And I went along to a meeting in
8 Busovaca with my boss, with Martin Garrod, HCC of
9 Zenica, ECMM, and Mr. Nick Turnbull, who I took over
10 from back at the beginning of December.
11 We tried to start talks with Mr. Kordic about
12 the HVO involvement and demilitarisation within the
13 Lasva Valley, and tried to bring in the BiH from
14 Zenica, Travnik.
15 Mr. Kordic didn't really want to get involved
16 in any of these talks, and it was quite apparent that
17 he was pulling the strings in the Vitez pocket.
18 Everything had to go through him.
19 And at that time, and I've written this down
20 because I was taking the notes of this meeting,
21 Mr. Kordic said that at this time the process for
22 discussion had not yet arrived. That was that. End of
24 Q. Now, you met him on this occasion. With whom
25 on his side was he in company?
1 A. He had no political accomplices at that
2 point. He was on his own. He had a plethora of men of
3 military status? I described them as short-haired,
4 fairly burly individuals, bristling with ammunition and
5 rifles, and obviously acting as bodyguards, because
6 they moved very close to Mr. Kordic whenever he stepped
7 out of his room.
8 Q. In these discussions with comparatively
9 senior or very senior people on your side, did he have
10 to refer to anybody else before making decisions? Did
11 he have to pick up the telephone or anything like
13 A. No. The telephone links were rather sporadic
14 at that time. We were actually in the Vitez pocket,
15 rather cut off from the rest of middle Bosnia. But he
16 did say that he wasn't prepared to make any high-level
17 decisions without first discussing the questions with
18 people of higher authority. And he never actually
19 named anybody of higher authority, but he made
20 reference to them in general.
21 Q. And how did these attempted negotiations
23 A. Are you referring, sorry, to the ones in
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. They were non-conclusive.
2 Q. This meeting in mid-March, by what title, if
3 any, did Kordic introduce himself, or identify
5 A. Self-proclaimed politician of Herceg-Bosnia
6 for the Vitez pocket, and Colonel of the HVO.
7 Q. Was this the first time he'd called himself a
8 Colonel in the HVO, or had it happened earlier, or
9 can't you remember?
10 A. It's the first time that he referred to
11 himself as a HVO Colonel. But I had heard him referred
12 to as such by other people in and around the pocket
13 that I had met in the course of my work.
14 Q. Was that your last meeting with Kordic, or
15 were there later ones?
16 A. That was it.
17 Q. For completeness, it's right that you saw
18 Blaskic on various occasions?
19 A. That's correct. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Starting when and finishing when?
21 A. The first time I saw Commander Blaskic was on
22 the television on the 3rd of January. And he was
23 standing in front of the ammunition depot in Vitez
24 pocket. And then I had two meetings with him at a
25 later stage, January, February time.
1 Q. We'll deal with the television programme
2 first. What was the content of what he was saying
4 A. As you rightly pointed out a while ago, Vitez
5 pocket was surrounded by troops of the army BiH, and
6 Commander Blaskic, although he was the commander of
7 middle Bosnia, he had wired the ammunition factory in
8 Vitez with explosives. And he went on the television
9 to provoke General Alagic, it would seem, and he
10 threatened the Muslims at the time that if they tried
11 to capture the Vitez pocket, he would blow up the
12 ammunition dump. And he showed various monitors the
13 ammunition dump and the wires and the explosive
14 devices, the TNT that he described, although I never
15 saw it; it was passed onto me. But I actually saw him
16 on the television, the 3rd of January, standing in
17 front of the ammunition dump. He was very tired.
18 Q. And I think you spoke to Ivica Saric, former
19 President of Travnik and the HVO President of the
20 Exchange Commission, about this, or at least he
21 commented on this, to the effect that fatigue was
22 playing a part?
23 A. Mr. Ivica Saric, former President of Travnik,
24 displaced government of Travnik, shall we say, or
25 displaced President of Travnik, was then hiding out in
1 the -- well, not hiding out, but for his own safety
2 living in the Hotel Vitez, or close to the Hotel
3 Vitez. He was a very well-educated man, in my
4 assumption. And he described Commander Blaskic as
5 tired, exhausted. And the very fact that he had been
6 on the television -- he described his showing on the
7 television as irrational behaviour, due to his
8 exhaustion, and trying to look after his people in the
9 Vitez pocket.
10 Q. On the two subsequent occasions that you saw
11 Blaskic, what was he wearing by way of uniform and rank
12 insignia, and what did he tell you, if anything, about
13 rank insignia?
14 A. On both occasions, Commander Blaskic was
15 wearing what we in the army would describe as DPM
16 clothing. That's disruptive pattern material,
17 tree-suit material, green and brown. On his right arm
18 he had a patch with HVO on it, which is Croatian army,
19 and he had no badges of rank. They are normally now
20 above the pockets, but he had nothing.
21 And I asked him what rank he was. He said
22 that it was too early for ranks, and that the Croatian
23 army didn't have any ranks that were yet decided or
24 given out. That would come at a later date.
25 Q. How, overall, did Kordic's attitude appear to
1 you, contrasted, if it's appropriate, with Blaskic's?
2 A. Compared to Blaskic, his manner was pushy,
3 unprofessional, menacing, intimidating, and that of a
5 Q. Blaskic?
6 A. Professional, honest, when asked direct
7 questions, keen to make sure that we didn't, as an ECMM
8 team, take ourselves into any positions of danger. He
9 was always looking out for our safety. And for that I
10 was very grateful.
11 Q. Last two documents and two more questions,
12 please. 1393,1. Now, you've told us about a Medivac
13 or about Medivac helicopter problems. But this is now
14 on the 11th of March. Just explain this, please.
15 A. As I said earlier, the only field hospital
16 that we had in Nova Bila had a series of very sick
17 patients, be they young or old. At this point, on
18 around the 9th of March, I was contacted by the
19 airfield monitors in Split and told to prepare for an
20 arrival of MI8's from basa Divulje to the hospital in
21 Nova Bila. So I got myself into position that day, the
22 11th of March --
23 Q. That's coming from the state of Croatia?
24 A. Coming from the state of Croatia to the
25 Republic of Bosnia. To my area, yes.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. At the time that the helicopters were due to
3 arrive, I noticed them flying towards the hospital, but
4 I noticed that they were dropping too quickly and that
5 they actually weren't going to land where I was
6 situated in my vehicle. I had no idea where they were
7 going to land. So I followed the tail and found that
8 they had actually landed in a school yard about one
9 kilometre from where I was waiting in my vehicle.
10 I got on the radio and I contacted the
11 BritBat G5 officer, Captain York, who I had worked with
12 on many occasions. And I asked him to get to the grid
13 reference I quoted to him, because I suspected that
14 something was about to go amiss.
15 Within a very short period of time, Captain
16 York arrived in his Land Rover, with the aid of one
17 Warrior tank, APC, whatever you want to call it. And I
18 noticed, because we had arrived in time to see the
19 helicopter landing, and we noticed that coming out of
20 the back of the MI8 were approximately 20 soldiers in
21 new uniforms, carrying weapons, carrying bags, carrying
22 boxes. The boxes -- some of the boxes were leaking
23 oil. And from my military experience, I can only tell
24 you that when boxes leak oil, there is something inside
25 there, like explosives. Inside their bags, although we
1 couldn't see them, we could hear ammunition chinking.
2 And the soldiers were being greeted, by those who had
3 gathered quickly, as a hero's welcome.
4 I asked my interpreter to listen to what was
5 being said. She said that these guys had apparently
6 come from Gornji Vakuf, which was south from us.
7 So I asked Captain York if he could get some
8 more Warriors, and that we were going to surround the
9 helicopter so that it couldn't fly off.
10 Q. Is that what happened?
11 A. Within a short period, two more Warriors came
12 and trained their cannon on their -- on the MI8s. And
13 then I recognised one of the pilots and I put him in my
14 truck and took him to BritBat, because he wouldn't get
15 in the BritBat truck. And I took him to the ops room
16 in BritBat to meet the Colonel of BritBat, and also
17 Commander Filipovic was there as well.
18 This was the first time that I'd actually
19 witnessed the MI8 landing in the Vitez pocket. This
20 was now after the war and it was during the daylight
21 hours, and it seemed to me as if they had become quite
22 complacent. And they were doing this, knowing full
23 well that I was going to be around.
24 Q. So the flight from Croatia, cleared for
25 Medivac purposes, apparently abused?
1 A. That's correct. The airfield monitors in
2 Split had actually cleared the helicopter, as was the
3 procedure, before it took off. By the time it arrived
4 at Nova Bila, it was no longer empty. It was full of
5 troops. And the troops had been picked up en route.
6 We can't say exactly where, but we suspect that they
7 were picked up from Poculica. Or not Poculica; from
8 Posusje, I beg your pardon, which was the Croatian
9 helicopter base in southern part of Bosnia.
10 Q. So that would again be coming from Croatia?
11 A. Yes. It left Croatia empty. By the time it
12 arrived with me it was full.
13 Q. This is dealt with in document 1393,1, where
14 the query is raised. At number 2, are you able to
15 confirm whether troops or passengers exited from the
16 helicopter when it landed? And your report can be
17 found at 1393,2. We notice at the foot of the first
18 page, at the end of paragraph 1, that the Croatian
19 television had recorded Mr. Kordic being back in
20 Busovaca at that time, but then under 2, operational
21 military matters, and over the page, the account of
22 this helicopter incident, which you dealt with, is
23 there set out.
24 A. That's correct. Yes. You want me to
1 Q. I think you've covered everything that there
2 is there. So far as you know, the soldiers were sent
3 back, except that 19 went back and not 18?
4 A. Actually, the 19 that I refer to there were
5 actually --
6 Q. I am so sorry. Nineteen patients?
7 A. Nineteen patients. I actually loaded 19 and
8 not 18, because there was one more that I took pity on,
9 and there was this space left in the seekings that came
10 to pick up Croat people.
11 Q. So the Medivac mission was completed with
12 seeking helicopters and, so far as you know, the other
13 helicopter did go back and, presumably, went back with
14 the soldiers?
15 A. Shall I expand?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Yes, the helicopter that was grounded by
18 force, shall I say, from the Warriors, was actually
19 held on the ground. And Commander Filipovic insisted
20 that all the soldiers that had actually got out from
21 the helicopter be rounded up and taken back to where
22 they came from. Now, this did happen, although I have
23 no report to show it.
24 They were picked up, and around about 6.00
25 that evening they were flown back. I had to be back in
1 there each night at 5.00 to start my report and to meet
2 the curfew time. But they did get flown back. But, as
3 it happens, they didn't arrive in Split; they were
4 dropped off in Posusje, where another 19 or 20 of them
5 were loaded. And they were older guys. They weren't
6 the same ones that were pulled out of the Vitez
8 So when they arrived back in Split, where
9 everybody was waiting for them, they weren't the ones
10 that jumped out of the helicopter earlier that -- the
11 day before. In other words, the game playing had still
12 continued, even though they had been exposed.
13 MR. NICE: If I can deal with paragraphs 22
14 and 23 before the adjournment, then I would have
15 concluded the witness's evidence.
16 JUDGE MAY: How long is it going to take?
17 MR. NICE: Not very long, I don't think.
18 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
19 MR. NICE:
20 Q. Paragraph 22, your translator who is named,
21 but don't name her, did she tell you about an attack on
22 her village of Dusina in January of 1993? Just "Yes"
23 or "No."
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And she gave an account of what happened to
1 her and her brothers, which you summarised in the
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Were you interviewed by someone named in
5 paragraph 23 of your summary about the abduction of
6 that person's husband?
7 A. I was approached by her. I wasn't
8 interviewed by her, but, yes --
9 Q. You interviewed her?
10 A. I interviewed her, yes.
11 Q. How many times?
12 A. On many occasions. That was the first one in
14 Q. And this was in relation to the Mujahedin?
15 A. That's correct, yes.
16 MR. NICE: Again, I'm not going to take that
17 further. I think that's all I want from this witness.
18 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now.
19 Witness Z, would you be back, please, at half
20 past 2.00.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, Sir.
22 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.36 p.m.
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers.
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers:
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon,
5 Witness Z. My name is Steven Sayers. I am one of the
6 attorneys representing Dario Kordic. We'll try to get
7 through with your questions so that you can leave
9 Ma'am, you gave a statement on February 11th
10 and 12 of 1997 to Mr. Carry Spork, one of the
11 Prosecution's investigators; correct?
12 A. That's correct, yes.
13 Q. That consists of 13 pages, single spaced, and
14 it is pretty detailed, chronologically. Did you
15 consult any personal notes, any journals or
16 contemporaneous diary that you kept before preparing
17 that statement and giving it to the Prosecution's
19 A. For certain aspects of it, yes.
20 Q. Do you have any contemporaneous notes made of
21 the three conversations that you've related to the
22 Trial Chamber concerning Mr. Kordic?
23 A. The only notes that I have concerning
24 Mr. Kordic are the ones that I wrote when I came back
25 from my day out in the Vitez pocket, which was done on
1 a daily basis around about half past 4.00, 5.00 each
2 night. So I am referring to those notes.
3 Q. You are referring to the notes which were
4 subsequently typed up, and which were marked as
5 exhibits and shown to you today, I take it?
6 A. The notes that I have given as exhibits were
7 actually written by myself at the time in 1994. Yes,
8 they would have been done by me.
9 Q. So would it be fair to say, ma'am, that those
10 notes, or the entries in the exhibits that we've seen
11 today, represent the sum total of the material that
12 you've actually written yourself about each of those
13 three meetings?
14 A. That's correct, yes.
15 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, the statement
16 that you gave to Mr. Spork two and a half years ago,
17 was that given in your words or were someone else's
18 words used?
19 A. They were given by me, at my private
20 accommodation, and taken down over the space of about
21 three days.
22 Q. It would be fair to say, I take it, that you
23 signed that statement as an accurate representation of
24 what you had personally told the investigator?
25 A. That's correct, yes.
1 Q. I noticed, ma'am, that you have some facility
2 with the pronunciation of Croatian names. Do you
3 actually speak the Croatian language?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Did you have that ability when
6 you were performing your functions as an ECMM monitor
7 between December of 1993 and July of 1994, was it?
8 A. When I first got to Croatia, I couldn't speak
9 a word of language. I've learnt it since I have been
11 Q. All right.
12 A. I'm not fluent, but I am working on it.
13 Q. The fact is, though, that at the end of 1993,
14 and in early 1994, you actually needed the services of
15 an interpreter to be able to converse with people on
16 the ground; correct?
17 A. Yes, absolutely.
18 Q. Just a few background questions, ma'am, to
19 make sure I've got the chronological facts straight. I
20 understand that your first mission to the former
21 Yugoslavia was from August to November, and that you
22 spent that time actually in the Republic of Croatia; is
23 that correct?
24 A. Actually, my first mission was for a year,
25 but I spent the first part of my mission as an airfield
1 monitor based in Croatia, yes, that's correct, from
2 August until November.
3 Q. You came to Zenica for the first time on
4 November the 5th of 1993, right?
5 A. That's correct, yes.
6 Q. (redacted)
22 A. That's right. I had actually taken a growing
23 interest in what was going on in the area, and because
24 -- I suppose because of my interests and because of my
25 background, I was asked if I would like to take over
1 the team working in Vitez. But it was pointed out to
2 me that I would be the only female around and that it
3 was actually a fairly difficult area in which to work.
4 And I was asked whether I would like to take over the
5 job, to which I said yes.
6 Q. You were asked some questions right at the
7 end of your direct examination about the events at
8 Dusina in January of 1993. I would just like to ask
9 you a few questions in that regard.
10 But I think, Mr. President, we may have to go
11 into private session to do so, with the Trial Chamber's
13 JUDGE MAY: You are asking to do that?
14 MR. SAYERS: Yes.
15 [Private session]
13 page 11154 redacted – private session
13 page 11155 redacted – private session
13 page 11156 redacted – private session
13 page 11157 redacted – private session
13 page 11158 redacted – private session
16 [Open session]
17 MR. SAYERS: Thank you very much, ma'am.
18 Just a couple of very general questions regarding the
19 HVO chain of command.
20 Q. You understood that the general staff of the
21 HVO, the military forces, was located in Mostar;
23 A. That's correct, yes.
24 Q. And you also understood that the supreme
25 commander of the armed forces was actually the
1 president of the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, a
2 man by the name of Mate Boban; correct?
3 A. That's correct, yes, but I also understood
4 that his supreme commander was President of Croatia.
5 Q. Did he ever tell you that?
6 A. Did who ever tell me that?
7 Q. Mr. Boban?
8 A. I never met Mr. Boban. No.
9 Q. And when you were present in Central Bosnia,
10 ma'am, do you know who the chief of the general staff
11 of the HVO was, who the military commander was?
12 A. I was told and introduced to Commander
13 Blaskic as such, yes.
14 Q. Let me suggest to you, ma'am, that Commander
15 Blaskic was the commander of the Central Bosnia
16 Operative Zone, or the 3rd Operative Zone at that time,
17 and that he reported to a superior officer who, while
18 you were present in Central Bosnia, was General Ante
19 Rosso. Does that name mean anything to you at all?
20 A. Rosso, yes.
21 Q. All right. And on the subject of Commander
22 Blaskic, you had no doubt that he was, in fact, the
23 commander of all of the HVO military forces within his
24 area of responsibility; correct?
25 A. That's correct, yes.
1 Q. And when issues such as the unfortunate issue
2 of body exchanges or exchanges of wounded arose, you
3 naturally contacted the military authorities to arrange
4 that; correct?
5 A. Actually, it was pretty much the other way
6 around. They always had firsthand knowledge of when it
7 was right to go ahead with those things, and I was to
8 report to them on a daily basis, which I did sort of in
9 the course of my work, and they would update me. I
10 used to go to the Hotel Vitez every day to go and talk
11 with them.
12 Q. All right. You gave some testimony, ma'am,
13 regarding what Colonel Blaskic told you in connection
14 with the HVO rank system, if you like?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I would just like to show you a document and
17 ask you whether you ever had the opportunity to see
18 this at any time or hear about it while you were on
19 your tour of duty.
20 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
22 MR. SAYERS:
23 Q. This document was published in something
24 known as the Narodni List of HZ Herceg-Bosna. Had you
25 ever heard of that gazette before?
1 A. I understand it's a people's list of
2 Herceg-Bosna. No, I've never seen this document
3 before. It's the first time I see it today. I see
4 it's signed by Mate Boban.
5 Q. Right, on July the 3rd of 1992. But if
6 you've never seen it before, ma'am, there appears to be
7 little point in asking you any questions on it, so
8 let's move on.
9 Did you ever have the opportunity to meet a
10 gentleman by the name of Dr. Jadranko Prlic?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. Did you know that Dr. Prlic was actually the
13 President of the HVO before the Croatian Republic of
14 Herceg-Bosna was formed?
15 A. No, I didn't.
16 Q. Did you ever have the opportunity, ma'am, to
17 speak to any of the three vice-presidents of the HVO:
18 Mr. Stipo Ivankovic, Mr. Kresimir Zubak or Mr. Anto
20 A. I know the names. I have never met the
21 gentlemen in question, no. I know that Mr. Zubak is a
22 political figure in Croatia, because I saw posters of
23 him two years ago, during the elections.
24 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Zubak had actually
25 signed the Washington Agreement that terminated
1 hostilities on March the 1st of 1994, and he signed in
2 his capacity as representative of the Croat people?
3 A. Yes, I know that.
4 Q. All right. In Bosnia-Herzegovina, obviously?
5 A. Yes, end of February, 1994. Around about the
6 25th of February. Around about that time.
7 Q. I can make this an exhibit or not, as the
8 case may be.
9 Let me just represent to you that according
10 to a letter dated March the 3rd of 1994, from the
11 permanent representatives of Bosnia and Herzegovina and
12 Croatia to the United Nations and to the
13 Secretary-General, there is a reference to two
14 documents signed in Washington on the 1st of March
15 1994, which are known as the Washington Agreements.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Signed by Mr. Haris Silajdzic, the Prime
18 Minister of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Mr. Granic.
21 A. Mr. Granic.
22 Q. And Mr. Kresimir Zubak, head of the Bosnian
23 Croat delegation. Does that refresh your memory as to
24 the precise date?
25 A. It does, because the ceasefire was called for
1 12.00 on the 25th of February, so that was the natural
2 conclusion that followed on, yes.
3 Q. Okay. Did you follow the genesis of this
4 so-called Stoltenberg Owen plan at all, ma'am, or not?
5 A. I didn't understand it, to be perfectly
6 honest. I understood what they were attempting to do,
7 but I think it was -- my own opinion -- premature and
8 incredibly optimistic. And it only took two sides into
9 account. It totally ruled out the third element. So
10 it was a non-starter, as far as we could see.
11 Q. Was that a view that was --
12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me.
13 Mr. Sayers, could the witness tell us more precisely
14 what she was referring to, the two first elements and
15 the third element?
16 A. I understand the question.
17 MR. SAYERS: I think, Your Honour --
18 A. The third element being the Serb element.
19 I'm sorry.
20 MR. SAYERS: The Republika Srpska.
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And the
22 first two elements, therefore, are the Croats and the
23 Muslims? Is that what you mean?
24 A. Sorry. I didn't get all of that.
25 MR. SAYERS: Let me try to clear this up.
1 With the permission of the Trial Chamber, I do not
2 believe that a copy of the Stoltenberg Owen plan has
3 ever been made an exhibit, and it might be helpful just
4 to ask a few questions of that by way of background to
5 clarify for everybody what the proposal was.
6 This is a relatively substantial document,
7 Your Honour. But I would only wish to point out three
8 separate paragraphs in it. And I think that you can
9 see what the International Community was attempting to
10 achieve. Thanks.
11 If we could have this marked as the next
12 Defence Exhibit.
13 THE REGISTRAR: D141/1.
14 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.
15 Q. There is no need to go through this fairly
16 weighty document in any detail, ma'am. I would just
17 like to point out to you certain salient features. If
18 you just turn to page 5 of the document, paragraph 19.
19 There is a reference here to the fact that,
20 after intensive discussions of a number of drafts, all
21 three parties agreed, on the 30th of July, 1993, to a
22 constitutional agreement for a Union of Republics of
23 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and to that Union forming part
24 of an overall peace settlement.
25 The next page, the paragraph I would like to
1 draw your attention to, is on the next page, paragraph
2 24, where all three sides agree that the name of each
3 constituent republic would be determined by the
4 competent authorities of that republic.
5 Was that your understanding of one facet of
6 the agreement, ma'am, or does that not ring even a
7 faintly familiar bell?
8 A. It rings bells, but what's written here on
9 paper wasn't actually what was being thought out at the
10 time. And I say that purely because the only two sides
11 that you could get to talk to were indeed the army BiH
12 and the HVO. There was no -- for us, as ECMM monitors,
13 there was no even -- no thought of talking with the
14 third side. And, in fact, they didn't even sign the
15 agreement, so ...
16 Q. And, in fact, even though that dialogue was
17 going on, it was not eased by the fact that there was a
18 major, widespread offensive being mounted by the ABiH
19 in the summer of 1993 against HVO forces. And, if you
20 want to, take a look at paragraph 37 on page 9. A
21 reference is made to that.
22 Did you have any personal knowledge or
23 knowledge from your colleagues at the ECMM regarding
24 that ABiH offensive in the summer of 1993?
25 A. I wasn't there in 1993, in the summer, I'm
1 afraid. I can't comment.
2 Q. My final question. If you just turn to page
3 13, appendix 1, which articulates the constitutional
4 agreement of the Union of Republics of Bosnia and
5 Herzegovina. There were to be three constituent
6 republics which encompass the three constituent
7 peoples: Muslims, Serbs and Croats.
8 Is that a fair synopsis of what the
9 Stoltenberg Owen Plan was intended to achieve, in your
11 A. On paper, yes. In reality, not a chance. As
12 I say, it was a bit optimistic, a bit too -- it's a
13 good idea, but it was ahead of its time.
14 Unfortunately, it didn't work.
15 Q. Ma'am, there is no question, though, that the
16 Croats accepted this plan and agreed to abide by it;
18 A. The Stoltenberg agreement?
19 Q. Stoltenberg agreement.
20 A. I couldn't say for sure exactly what they had
21 in their mind, but it would probably ring true, because
22 at a later stage they signed up to the Federation, in
23 March '94.
24 Q. And shortly after this agreement was signed
25 or approved by the Croat side, do you recall that the
1 Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna was actually founded
2 in Mostar on the 28th of August, 1993?
3 A. Well, I have a document, not with me, but it
4 was signed by Mate Boban on the 5th of August, 1992,
5 where he declares himself as the President of the
6 Republic of Herceg-Bosna. So we missed a year here.
7 Q. Let me show you one other document, ma'am.
8 It may or may not help refresh your memory as to this
9 topic. But it's actually the founding document of the
10 Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna. I believe I may
11 have misspoken somewhat, ma'am, when I said the
12 republic was founded in Mostar. It was actually
13 founded in Grude on that day.
14 Could you just turn to the second page,
15 ma'am. You can see that this document was signed by
16 the President of the House of Representatives, Perica
17 Jukic. Did you ever meet that gentleman?
18 A. No, I didn't.
19 Q. Does his name ring a familiar bell?
20 A. No, I know nothing about the man.
21 Q. Very well. Now, did you realise, ma'am, that
22 the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna ceased to exist
23 once the Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna was founded?
24 A. Sorry, will you repeat the question?
25 Q. Did you realise that the Croatian community,
1 an entity known as the Croatian community of
2 Herceg-Bosna, the so-called HZHB, ceased to exist once
3 the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna was --
4 A. Yes, I did. Sorry.
5 Q. Okay. Just a few questions, ma'am, if I may,
6 regarding Mr. Kordic. In your statement two and a half
7 years ago, you made the observation that the precise
8 nature of Mr. Kordic's position in this republic was
9 uncertain after the political exit of Mr. Mate Boban.
10 You made that observation on page 8. Would it be fair
11 to say that there was a considerable degree of
12 uncertainty within the ECMM regarding the nature of
13 Mr. Kordic's offices, if any, in the Croatian Republic
14 of Herceg-Bosna?
15 A. It would be fair to say so, yes. It would
16 also be fair to say that you couldn't get a straight
17 answer, so you were left to try and find out the
18 answers any way you could. These were not particularly
19 clear times, as I'm sure you realise.
20 Q. The ECMM, though, actually had available to
21 it the decrees of the Croatian community of
22 Herceg-Bosna, such as those which appointed members of
23 the government; did it not?
24 A. The HCC would have had access to this,
25 because he attended high-level meetings. They would
1 have been passed down, but, to be perfectly honest, I
2 never saw them. I was going on verbal instructions.
3 And my job was to go out there and confirm what was
4 either being passed around as a rumour or that that was
5 written down. I was gathering information.
6 Q. So even though the documents that articulated
7 the appointments of members of the government were
8 available to the head of a regional centre, the HRC,
9 the position is that you yourself never actually saw
11 A. Sad to say, but that's the truth, yes.
12 Q. Then we can move on.
13 A number of references to Mr. Kordic and
14 inquiries about his position appear, ma'am, in the
15 records of the ECMM. I'd just like to show you a few,
16 if I may. The first one is dated the 15th of December,
18 A. Written by Mr. Turnbull, probably.
19 Q. Just checking, and I'll let you know. The
20 authors of this document appear to be a gentleman by
21 the name of Aage Terp, Gerard van der Elshout, and
22 Johan Swennen. Let me just show it to you, if I may.
23 A. Yes. I know all three of them.
24 Q. Thank you. Just --
25 THE REGISTRAR: The last document was marked
1 D142/1, and this document is marked D143/1.
2 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.
3 Q. Just two or three questions about this
4 document, ma'am.
5 There's a reference to the HCC in Mostar
6 meeting a gentleman called Slobodan Lovrenovic, who is
7 the press advisor to Mate Boban. When asked
8 specifically about the status of Mr. Kordic, who had
9 been a vice-president of the Croatian Community of
10 Herceg-Bosna, the HCC was informed that Mr. Kordic no
11 longer held presidential office but merely was one of
12 many legislators in the house of representatives.
13 Do you recall any internal discussion at the
14 ECMM in December or January on this topic, ma'am?
15 A. (redacted)
19 Q. Similarly, at the bottom of the page, there's
20 a reference to a discussion between the HCC of Travnik,
21 who I gather was Mr. Stutt --
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. -- a discussion between him and Mr. Blaskic,
24 and the topic of Mr. Kordic's status within the
25 republic cropped up, and Colonel Blaskic informed
1 Mr. Stutt that he was not a politician and had not
2 followed the political process. Did you have any
3 discussion on that subject about Mr. Kordic's status
4 with Mr. Stutt at around this time, ma'am, or shortly
6 A. Mr. Stutt is a military man, and it's a
7 well-known fact that military and politicians don't mix
8 terribly well.
9 Q. All right.
10 A. That he says -- that Mr. Blaskic says that he
11 doesn't know anything about politics comes as no
12 surprise. I think I'd give the same answer.
13 Q. The next ECMM report, I don't need to go into
14 that. Let me just see if I can pick up the pace here a
15 little, ma'am.
16 On the subject of helicopter flights about
17 which you testified, you never actually saw Mr. Kordic
18 take a flight in a helicopter at any time after you
19 took up your duties as a V1 ECMM monitor in December of
20 1993, did you?
21 A. No, sir, I did not.
22 Q. And I believe that the only helicopter
23 landing that you witnessed yourself, the one in which
24 the Warriors apprehended it by force, occurred after
25 the war had already ended, after the signature of the
1 Washington Agreements.
2 A. That was the one that I actually witnessed.
3 I saw them leaving from Split before. We had had a lot
4 of reported helicopter movement which was taking place
5 during the night during the war, which made sense; they
6 were hardly going to fly during the day. But the only
7 one that I did see was the one that actually landed on
8 the 11th of March, I believe it was.
9 Q. After the signature of the Washington --
10 A. Correct. Still a violation.
11 Q. One question, if I may, about the subject
12 that you gave regarding the imam in Busovaca.
13 In your statement two and a half years ago,
14 you made no reference to the imam, did you? I mean you
15 have reviewed your statement, I take it.
16 A. To be honest, I would have to check my
17 statement again about the imam, but I can't say off the
18 top of my head because I haven't got the document here
19 in front of me, so ...
20 Q. All right. If I might just show you the next
21 document I would like to have marked, which is an ECMM
22 report from the CC Travnik, February 16, 1994. Thank
24 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked
1 MR. SAYERS:
2 Q. The CC Travnik, as we've established, is
3 Mr. Stutt?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And he was the one that actually drafted the
6 political situation summary that is contained on
7 page 1; correct?
8 A. I believe I was sitting right next to him
9 when he did it. That's correct.
10 Q. All right. Would it be fair to say that
11 Mr. Stutt was doing most of the talking and you were
12 actually taking notes?
13 A. No, it's not true, actually; not on this
14 particular occasion, no.
15 Q. You came out and spoke your mind on that one
16 particular subject; is that right?
17 A. It was my meeting. I took Mr. Stutt along
18 for protection.
19 Q. And that was the first meeting that you had
20 had with Mr. Kordic, as we've established; right?
21 A. That's correct, yes.
22 Q. Now, did the imam tell you that he had
23 actually been paying visits to his mother and spending
24 time in Kacuni?
25 A. I don't remember him saying that, no.
1 Q. All right.
2 A. If he did, he must have done it before my
3 time, because by the time I got to him, he was going --
4 he wasn't allowed out of the house. But Kacuni at that
5 time was cut off, so there was only one route into
6 Kacuni and that was -- I interviewed one gentleman that
7 had gone from Travnik to Kacuni, and it took him 12
8 hours, with the aid of a donkey. So I don't know how
9 the imam got to Kacuni. He must have done it before I
11 Q. Very well. It's true, ma'am, that while you
12 were in Central Bosnia, the ABiH launched two large
13 offensives in the Vitez-Busovaca area; correct?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. The first was just before Christmas on
16 December the 22nd and the 24th, 1993, and that resulted
17 in numerous deaths and casualties, an attack on
18 Krizancevo Selo, and it was those bodies that you saw
19 exhumed about a month later, was it?
20 A. That's correct, yes.
21 Q. And then the second attack was on Santici and
22 Buhine Kuce, I believe-- please forgive my
23 pronunciation -- on the 9th of January, 1994?
24 A. That's correct, yes.
25 Q. Would it be fair to say, ma'am, that between
1 those two events, those two offensives, the ECMM's view
2 was that morale in the Vitez-Busovaca pocket, at least
3 from the Croat perspective, was as low as anybody could
5 A. I'm sorry, let me just go back a step here.
6 Do you mean that the morale of the HVO soldiers was
8 Q. And the civilians, yes.
9 A. I think they had gone into survival mode, if
10 you ask my opinion. It wasn't as low as the army of
11 BiH, but it wasn't far off it. They were struggling,
12 both sides.
13 Q. I don't think we need to make this an
14 exhibit, but from the RC Zenica daily report for
15 December the 28th, 1993, the head of the regional
16 centre makes the observation that HVO morale in Vitez,
17 Kiseljak, and Zepce is as low as anybody can recall
18 having seen it.
19 A. On the 28th of December, 1993, I was actually
20 away in the U.K. on leave, so if he says that's the
21 case, then that must have been based on the previous
22 Victor 1 leader who I took over from, so presumably
23 that's the conclusion that they came to.
24 Q. And that was Mr. Turnbull?
25 A. That's correct, yes.
1 Q. The testimony that you gave regarding threats
2 made by Commander Blaskic to explode the SPS factory in
3 Vitez, those warnings were fairly routine, weren't
4 they? They had been going on for a number of months
5 and it was really nothing new?
6 A. It's what I could describe as normal Balkan
7 provocation. It seems threatening to us, but it's
8 normal life where they live. I thought it was quite a
9 good plan myself.
10 Q. A few questions, ma'am, on the subject of the
11 ABiH attack on Santici on the 9th of January, 1994.
12 There's no question that this was a concerted
13 3rd Corps assault on the main supply route at Santici,
14 spearheaded by Mujahedin forces; correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. The Mujahedin forces, in fact, were
17 supplemented by troops from the 3rd Corps, weren't
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And in launching the attacks on the village
21 of Santici, the assault troops used standard FIBUA
22 tactics, fighting in built-up area tactics, standard
23 house-to-house clearance tactics, as far as you could
24 see; correct?
25 A. You mean the army of BiH troops used those
1 type of tactics? I didn't see them do it, but if they
2 did, they made a fairly poor stab at it, because I've
3 seen it done professionally and it was not very well
4 done. In fact, it was just haphazard and fairly
5 sporadic, with a hint of optimistic attached. They
6 didn't get very far.
7 Q. All of the Bosnian Croat civilians who
8 declined to flee from their homes, though, were killed,
9 weren't they?
10 A. I saw two casualties, two dead bodies from
11 the attack on Santici, yes. They were -- one was
12 unable to run away because he had been hit by a car a
13 year earlier and he was on crutches. They grabbed him
14 first. There was a female of about 35 years old. She
15 was lying dead in the garden in the same area. I know
16 of two that couldn't leave the area.
17 Q. Thank you. On page 5 of your statement, you
18 said that you saw two women shot dead in their garden
19 as they were trying to escape the assault. Is that
20 consistent with your current recollection?
21 A. I saw one woman in the morgue and I saw one
22 man who had been impaled. I don't remember the other
23 woman, to be honest.
24 Q. All right. The second individual that you
25 identified was about 60-years old, a crippled man who
1 was killed and cut in half; correct?
2 A. Umm-hmm, correct.
3 Q. That gentleman's -- the top half of his body
4 was then impaled on a pole about nine or ten feet long;
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Do you know if anything was done within the
8 3rd Corps, ma'am, to investigate these appalling
10 A. No, I don't know.
11 Q. Do you know whether any measures at all were
12 taken to discipline or remove any military commanders
13 who were responsible for that attack?
14 A. I asked General Mehmet Alagic about this, and
15 he said it was the work of the Mujahedin. He said that
16 the Mujahedin didn't come under his control from Cesko
17 [phoen] Brigada. He said that they were working
19 And it transpired later that any dealings
20 with the so-called Mujahedin were well and truly out of
21 Alagic's reach. So although he was the commander, or
22 second in commander, and then took over 7th Muslim
23 Brigade, he actually didn't wield much power, because
24 when I put him to the test, he couldn't help me.
25 Q. I have a photograph here, ma'am. I would
1 just like you to identify whether this was the
2 gentleman that you saw in his dismembered condition?
3 A. Yes, that's him.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Document marked D145/1.
5 MR. SAYERS:
6 Q. A very brief question, ma'am, on one of the
7 exhibits that you were shown, Exhibit Z1381,1.
8 There is a reference in this document to the
9 Hotel Vitez, the HVO headquarters, being subjected to
10 sporadic mortar fire from Stari Vitez. Was that a
11 fairly common occurrence, in your view, during this
13 A. Almost daily. In fact, the day that I went
14 to see this exhibit here, they were busy shelling the
15 Hotel Vitez every 40 minutes. I worked it out. And
16 within those 40 minutes, I managed to run from the
17 Hotel Vitez, to go and see this exhibit, and run back
18 again. It was fairly intense, and it was going on
19 every day, just about.
20 Q. Just one question, ma'am, in connection with
21 the mid-March 1994 meeting that you had with Mr. Kordic
22 and your boss, if you like, Mr. Stutt.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. That was after the Washington Agreement had
25 already been signed, I take it?
1 A. That's correct, yeah.
2 Q. Did you know that Mr. Kordic had been
3 appointed as the President of the Croatian Republic of
4 Herceg-Bosna Commission for the implementation of the
5 Washington Agreement?
6 A. No, I didn't. To be honest, I didn't at that
7 time, no. I took notes that day. That wasn't my
9 Q. Do you have those notes with you, or are they
11 A. No, I have them here. Just give me a minute.
12 Q. Is there anything of a personal nature in
13 there, or is it all business?
14 A. I just have to check and make sure I haven't
15 already submitted this one. Just give me a second,
17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, you've now been
18 nearly an hour on this cross-examination. How much
19 longer do you require?
20 MR. SAYERS: Perhaps five, ten minutes, Your
22 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Mr. Kovacic, are you
23 cross-examining this witness?
24 MR. KOVACIC: No, Your Honour, we don't.
25 A. I can't find it. It's in here somewhere.
1 MR. SAYERS:
2 Q. That's quite all right, ma'am. Just a few
3 final questions on some final topics, if I may. First,
4 you never saw, at any time during your tour of duty in
5 Central Bosnia, detainees being used to dig trenches,
6 did you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Or being used as so-called human shields?
9 A. No. I went to the prison in -- I can't
10 pronounce it -- Kaonik, I think. It's near Busovaca
11 anyway. And I saw what they had in there, but they
12 weren't being used. But they were being accused of
13 doing it. I never saw it.
14 Q. You yourself, though, never saw any people
15 used for forced labour, did you?
16 A. No, I didn't.
17 Q. And you never witnessed any maltreatment of
18 detainees at any time during your tour; is that
20 A. No, I didn't see that. No.
21 Q. You were asked some questions, ma'am, in
22 connection with one topic that actually may require us
23 to go into private session again, Mr. President, if I
25 [Private session]
13 pages 11183-11194 redacted – private session
24 (Open Session)
25 WITNESS: NASIHA NESLANOVIC
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a
4 Examined by Ms. Somers:
5 Q. Madam Witness, would you state your --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 Microphone, Ms. Somers.
8 MS. SOMERS:
9 Q. Would you speak into the microphone and state
10 it, please?
11 JUDGE MAY: Can you give us your full name,
13 A. Nasiha Neslanovic. I was born on the 16th of
14 June, 1958, in Busovaca.
15 MS. SOMERS:
16 Q. You were born in Busovaca and continued to
17 live there until the war?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And your occupation formerly was mail courier
20 and cleaning lady?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you are, by ethnicity, a Bosniak or a
23 person of the Muslim persuasion?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you work in Busovaca during the entire
1 period up until the war?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Where did --
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. -- you work?
6 A. In the municipal hall, in the municipal hall
7 in Busovaca.
8 Q. Did you know Dario Kordic when you lived in
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. How long did you know him?
12 A. I knew him for a very long time, ever since
13 we were children until this day.
14 Q. Did you have a professional relationship with
15 Dario Kordic's mother?
16 A. Yes, because his mother was a physician. She
17 treated my brother, myself, my child, and so on.
18 Q. Where did you have treatment given by
19 Dr. Kordic?
20 A. The treatment was given in the health centre,
21 and at times I also went to their home, that is, to
22 their flat, if there was something urgent, if I needed
23 some urgent care for my child or my brother or
24 somebody. So we would go to her home for either some
25 findings or for a prescription, whatever kind of help
1 we needed.
2 MS. SOMERS: I would ask the usher to show
3 Z1472,1 to the witness.
4 Q. Did you ever have treatment by Dr. Kordic
5 after the war had begun in Busovaca?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And where was the treatment given?
8 A. At the health centre in Busovaca. She
9 treated me during the war because it was during the war
10 I fell ill, and I went to the health centre and I was
11 standing in the passage, and there was some military
12 and civilians --
13 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just tell us the
14 doctor who treated you during the war. That's
16 MS. SOMERS:
17 Q. Can you simply tell us, is this the same Dom
18 Zdravlja that is mentioned at the bottom of the page of
19 the document that you have in front of you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was there also a war hospital near Dom
22 Zdravlja in Busovaca?
23 A. Yes. It was a kindergarten which was then
24 converted into a war hospital during the war. That is,
25 they evacuated the children and turned it into a war
2 Q. And the time frame when you received your
3 treatment from Dr. Kordic during the war, was it after
4 25th of January, 1993?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. At the time you were treated by Dr. Kordic,
7 did she have on a military uniform?
8 A. No. She wore the professional white clothes,
9 the white frock.
10 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Somers, you referred to a
11 Document 1472,1. We were handed a number of documents,
12 but that one doesn't seem to be amongst them.
13 MS. SOMERS: I'm terribly sorry, Your
14 Honour. It should have been a top document, actually,
15 a separate one.
16 JUDGE MAY: We have 175,1.
17 MS. SOMERS: If it's not there, please give
18 my copy. I apologise. It should have been in a pile
19 with two copies.
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not
21 have it.
22 JUDGE MAY: This document is the
23 announcement, is it, of an award to Dr. Kordic?
24 MS. SOMERS: Yes.
25 JUDGE MAY: Appears to be.
1 MS. SOMERS: I have no further questions of
2 the document. I was identifying locations and whether
3 or not there was a uniform at the time.
4 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
5 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.
6 Q. Going back a bit in time, did something
7 unusual happen on the steps of the police station in
8 May of 1992 in Busovaca?
9 A. Yes. I was carrying the mail to the police
10 station in Busovaca, there were some letters, and as I
11 reached the stairs, I saw two men in black clothes. I
12 first -- I thought they were chimney sweepers. But
13 when I reached the staircase, I saw the two were
14 wearing black uniforms with caps with the letter "U" on
15 them, and I stopped at the staircase because I was very
16 taken aback by this uniform. To my mind, it only
17 existed in history in the past. I saw it in textbooks
18 but never in reality. So I was rather lost, and one of
19 the policemen took me by the hand so I could leave the
20 mail there.
21 Then I came back to the municipal hall very
22 surprised and told my boss that I had seen those
23 uniforms and with the letter "U". He said, "Well, this
24 won't be the first time you're coming across that."
25 Q. What did the letter "U" represent to you?
1 A. Well, we learned about that in our history
2 classes, that that meant -- that was the symbol of the
3 Ustasha, that those were uniforms in the last war and
4 those uniforms were rather old, and because -- they
5 were pretty frayed and moth-eaten because they must
6 have been concealed somewhere, lying somewhere for so
7 many years. I mean, it was obvious that they could be
8 dated to the last war, because they were very old. I
9 mean those were really old clothes, really.
10 Q. Did you recognise --
11 A. Quite old.
12 Q. Excuse me. Did you recognise either of the
13 persons wearing those uniforms?
14 A. Yes, I recognised one of them. His last name
15 was Marinic. I knew him. I believe he was Zoran
16 Marinic's uncle, whom I used to know because he was a
17 neighbour of mine and a friend too, and he lived not
18 far from where I lived.
19 Q. Does Zoran Marinic use any other name?
20 A. Yes, he did. He was called Svabo. More
21 people knew him as Svabo than by his real name and
23 Q. The boss to whom you addressed your concern,
24 what was his ethnicity?
25 A. He was a Croat.
1 Q. Going back a bit further yet, in November
2 1991 do you recall any referendum that was presented to
3 you, as a citizen of Busovaca, to create or to vote to
4 create the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna?
5 A. No, I don't know about that. I never went
6 out to such a referendum, nor do I know that there was
8 Q. In November '91, did you observe any changes
9 in the way things were taking place around you in
11 A. I didn't understand. Oh, I see, yes. Yes,
12 there were major changes.
13 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment. You know,
14 Ms. Somers, we've heard quite a lot of evidence about
15 this, so I think you can move on to the next
17 MS. SOMERS: Of course, Your Honour, of
19 Q. It's okay. Thank you, Ms. Neslanovic. We'll
20 move on to another question.
21 Are you aware of what position, if any, Dario
22 Kordic may have held in Busovaca through the HDZ after
23 the 1991 elections?
24 A. Dario Kordic was appointed the chief of all
25 national defence. He was designated to the post by the
1 HDZ, and so he was the chief of the national defence.
2 Q. During that time period, did you see Dario
3 Kordic during the course of the workday?
4 A. Practically every day. I mean, we met in the
5 passage, in the corridor, every day. He came to work
6 every day after he was appointed the head, the chief,
7 for the national defence.
8 Q. Were you involved in any work concerning his
9 office? Did you have to go into his office?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Why?
12 A. Well, to bring in whatever mail there would
13 be, or to clean the place, or anything, or if I had to
14 call somebody out who was there. So I mean I always
15 went in on business, only when there was something
16 official that had to be done; to take in letters, to
17 sweep the office, things like that.
18 Q. During that time period, did you observe how
19 Dario Kordic was dressed when he came to work?
20 A. Yes. At the outset, he wore a civilian
21 uniform, and then he would wear a military uniform too,
22 that is, the multi-coloured -- the camouflage uniform.
23 And that was as of April. As of April, people began to
24 don camouflage uniforms.
25 Q. April of what year?
1 A. '92.
2 Q. Did he carry any weapons when he came to
3 work, that you could see?
4 A. From time to time, yes. Now and then; not
5 always. But I would see him. Sometimes he would have
6 a pistol over his clothes, and sometimes he would take
7 off his jacket and then we would see the pistol. That
8 was his personal weapon.
9 Q. Did he have bodyguards?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you recall how many?
12 A. He had two bodyguards who escorted him, who
13 accompanied him always, waited for him when he attended
14 meetings, and they were armed.
15 Q. Did you recognise either of the bodyguards?
16 Were they from Busovaca?
17 A. Yes, one of them was from Busovaca, and
18 another one came from Kresevo. The former one wore a
19 multi-coloured uniform and a short rifle, and the
20 latter one had black clothing, white belt, and the
21 holster was also white, the pistol holster. I don't
22 know what you call it, but that was white. The white
23 belt and the black uniform, the one from Kresevo, that
24 is how he was dressed. And I saw him later on at the
25 police station. When he was not with Dario, he was at
1 the police station.
2 Q. Looking at the period of June or perhaps
3 early July of 1992, did you observe any special
4 military measures taken by the HVO in Busovaca?
5 A. You mean since 1992, in 19 --
6 Q. In, yes. Did you observe any special
7 military measures taken by the HVO in Busovaca, and if
8 so, against whom were these measures directed?
9 A. Yes. Sometime in July, on Tihomira Jovica
10 Street, where the majority of residents were Muslim,
11 practically the whole street was Muslim. And in Kadica
12 Mahala, there were also Muslim residents, and their
13 machine-gun nests were set up there and soldiers who
14 manned them and controlled that street.
15 Several times in daytime, a small dump truck
16 would come in with a far-ranging weapon and it would
17 patrol the streets several times a day, both these
18 streets, from one machine-gun nest to another. They
19 would pass, they would drive by and intimidate us; that
20 is how we understood it, to instill fear in us, because
21 there was no other ethnic group but Muslims there.
22 Q. If you recall, do you know at whom the
23 machine-guns in the nests were directed, if you recall?
24 A. They were directed at Muslim houses, because
25 all those houses were Muslim. So they were aiming at
1 those houses, not in front, not behind; either to the
2 left or to the right, depending on whether they were
3 coming back or going.
4 Q. Do you recall, were they always manned or --
5 I'm sorry. Were they manned at all times?
6 A. At that particular period of time, yes.
7 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, I think if this
8 were to be the end of today's session, this would be a
9 convenient time.
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I think we've heard
11 about -- we've heard evidence, quite a lot of it, about
12 the takeover of Busovaca, so it may be convenient to
13 start at paragraph 7 tomorrow, with the 25th of
14 January, '93.
15 MS. SOMERS: With the Court's permission,
16 there are some points in 6. I agree that a good deal
17 has been given. There are some points that I believe
18 have never been brought up in Court, and if I may just
19 selectively ask questions from there, getting past the
20 bulk of it.
21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
22 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.
23 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Neslanovic, we are adjourning
24 today. I hope you've been told that it may not be
25 possible to hear your evidence tomorrow first thing
1 because there's another urgent witness to be heard, and
2 I hope you'll bear with us while that's done. But we
3 shall deal with your evidence as soon as we possibly
4 can so that you can finish within a few days.
5 Could you remember, in this adjournment and
6 any others there may be in this case, don't speak to
7 anybody about your evidence until it's over, and that
8 does include members of the Prosecution.
9 So could you be back, please --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of
12 JUDGE MAY: Can you be back, please, when
13 you're told.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn until tomorrow at
16 half past 9.00.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
18 4.15 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,
19 the 7th day of December, 1999, at
20 9.30 a.m.