1 Tuesday, 7th December, 1999
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.37 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario
7 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.
9 MR. NICE: Before returning to evidence, can
10 I mention, I think, three matters in private session
11 because it, in part, relates to confidential material.
12 [Private session]
13 pages 11209 to 11213 redacted – in private session
14 [Open session]
15 Examined by Ms. Somers: [Resumed]
16 Q. Looking to the period of late spring to early
17 summer of 1992, are you aware of any agreements that
18 may have been made between Serbs and Croats in the
19 areas of Katica and Podjele, let's say May of 1992?
20 A. Yes, yes. The Serbs wanted to leave Busovaca
21 to go to their own entity, among their own people, and
22 the Serbs made an agreement with the Croats to let them
23 pass so that they could leave unhindered. And in
24 return, in agreement with the officers in charge of the
25 barracks, the Croats would enter the barracks first and
1 the weapons that would be left behind in the barracks
2 would be given to them, as well as their things, their
3 livestock, their entire property. They left all of
4 that to the Croats. And among others, Zdravko
5 Bilanovic left his apartment, or actually he sold some
6 of his things to Franjo Sliskovic, who afterwards
7 married Dario Kordic's sister-in-law.
8 Q. Yesterday, the barracks you talked about,
9 that was Sajtovici barracks, are you referring also to
10 the Sajtovici barracks near Koanik?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Who is Franjo Sliskovic?
13 A. Franjo Sliskovic was an officer, an HVO
14 officer, and he's Anto Sliskovic's brother, Anto being
15 one of the main commanders in Busovaca, and he married
16 the sister of Dario Kordic's wife and he moved into the
17 apartment of Zdravko Bilanovic.
18 Q. Did you personally see him in that apartment?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you know whether or not Anto Sliskovic
21 also took an apartment from a Serb?
22 A. Yes. Anto Sliskovic and his wife are living
23 to this day in the apartment of Mico Bulatovic. He
24 left his own apartment that he had been allotted by his
25 company, from the firm he was working in. It was too
1 small for him. Then he moved into this bigger
2 apartment right next to the municipality building, and
3 that is where he is living with his family, the
4 apartment having been owned by Mico Bulatovic.
5 Q. Do you know whether or not the Serbs who were
6 leaving the Busovaca municipality required any written
7 permission from the controlling HVO?
8 A. Yes, yes. They had to request permission
9 from the Croats to leave, because they, all of them,
10 left en masse. No one stayed behind, and they had to
11 have permission, and they were given an escort too by
12 HVO soldiers until they left the territory of Kiseljak,
13 as far as their entity.
14 Q. On the 25th of January, 1993, what happened,
15 and if you can say what time it happened?
16 A. In the morning on the 25th of January at
17 6.00, the sirens sounded, and we all went into shelters
18 and we hid there. We heard the shooting, detonations,
19 and we took shelter. The closest shelter for me was in
20 a Croat house. My husband, child, and myself, we hid
21 there. We were the only Muslims in that house. The
22 others were Serbs or Croats and their families.
23 However, about 7.00 in the morning, my
24 neighbour ran in and said that they had taken her
25 husband to a camp, and all the other men who had been
1 in the next-door shelter. She was crying. She didn't
2 know what to do. She said, "My husband was there too,
3 and we didn't know what would happen next." As most of
4 the people were Croats in this shelter, they didn't
5 expect any Muslims.
6 In any event, they rounded up all the men,
7 even men under age and elderly men, over 65, and they
8 took them all to the Kaonik prison.
9 Q. When you say "rounded up men," of what ethnic
10 group were these men?
11 A. Muslims, Muslims, all the Muslims. They took
12 them to the barracks in Kaonik. In Sajtovici, there
13 was a camp for Muslims, for Muslim men, and they
14 detained them there for several days.
15 Q. Was your husband one of the men who was taken
16 to Kaonik and detained?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How long was he there?
19 A. Seven or eight days, until the exchange.
20 Q. Did your husband tell you what he had to do
21 while he was at Kaonik?
22 A. Yes. He was forced to dig trenches at
23 Strane, Loncari, at Kula, at Polje, Ravno, the village
24 of Ravno. He was digging trenches there around the
25 clock. They were mistreated while digging, beaten.
1 Q. Do you know whether or not anyone with your
2 husband or your husband was taken to Katici or
3 Merdani? If you know, please tell us.
4 A. My husband was not taken to Katici or
5 Merdani, but he did dig at Skradno.
6 Q. How many brothers do you have?
7 A. I have three brothers.
8 Q. Were they in the shelter with you on the 25th
9 of January? If not, where were they?
10 A. No, they were not with me in the shelter.
11 They were near their own house. They were hiding in
12 the attic of a neighbour's, under the roof. That is
13 where they were.
14 Q. Were you able to have contact with them while
15 they were hiding?
16 A. Through relatives, yes. When I went to see
17 them and see how they were doing, all they said was
18 that they were up there, that they were all right, that
19 they were getting food from time to time and so on when
20 there was time to take food up there to them.
21 MS. SOMERS: We will return to discussing
22 your brothers in a moment. I would ask for a brief
23 private session.
24 [Private session]
13 pages 11219 to 11233 redacted – in private session
14 [Open session]
15 MS. SOMERS:
16 Q. Returning to the discussion about your
17 brothers, did they live through the attack -- I'm
18 sorry. Did they survive the incidents in Busovaca?
19 Were they taken prisoner, and if so, what happened?
20 A. When my brothers were arrested, one day -- it
21 was sometime at the beginning of February or the end of
22 January -- I came to visit them, and I saw the door
23 leading to the loft had been broken. Something had
24 obviously happened, and a member of the family told me
25 that they had been taken away an hour and a half or two
1 before I had arrived, that they were beaten up right
2 there, that their documents were taken from them,
3 including driving licenses, which were torn up. They
4 were tied up and forced forward. And as they were
5 walking along the street, Anto Sliskovic was personally
6 watching their arrest and overseeing it. And Dragic,
7 who arrested my brother, asked Anto, "What am I going
8 to do with them, Major?" and he said, "Take them
9 there," and they took them away.
10 And as soon as I arrived, I hurried to see
11 what had happened to them, because a member of my
12 family told me that shortly after they had left, she
13 heard a burst of fire and she thought they had been
14 killed. So I went along the road and I met a man, and
15 he told me, "All three Mujahedins are lying in front of
16 the morgue."
17 Along the way, I met Dusko Grubesic. I went
18 up to him and I asked him, "Why have you killed my
20 Q. Who is Dusko Grubesic?
21 A. Dusko Grubesic is the main commander of the
22 Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade in Busovaca, and I went
23 up to him.
24 Q. [Previous interpretation continues] ... about
25 why he may have killed your brothers?
1 A. He said to me, "I ordered that not a single
2 Muslim from Busovaca may be killed from now on." And I
3 said, "But Dusko, they had driving licenses with their
4 address in Vitez, because they took their driving test
5 in Vitez, so that the address was indicated on the
6 license plate, and they may have thought they were from
7 Vitez, if you had given orders not to kill people only
8 from Busovaca and it said 'Vitez' on the driving
9 license." And then he said to me, "Wait there," and
10 this was just across the way from the church, "I'll go
11 and check." And he ran up the steps. I didn't have
12 any patience to wait. I ran up after him, and Vlado
13 Cosic was there. They were dialing some numbers.
14 Q. Who is Vlado Cosic?
15 A. Vlado Cosic was a policeman in the civilian
16 police, and then later he joined the military police.
17 He was in black and he had a white belt, and he was
18 sitting there.
19 Q. Before you go any further, I want to make
20 sure I understood. What exactly were the words of
21 Dusko Grubesic to your question?
22 A. He said to me, "I have given orders that not
23 a single other Muslim from Busovaca may be killed."
24 And then I explained to him that my brothers' documents
25 had "Vitez" indicated on them.
1 Q. Thank you very much. Did you ever come to
2 find your brothers?
3 A. Yes. Dusko was checking. He called up the
4 police in Kaonik and he couldn't find them, so he was
5 worried too, and he told me to go home and that in an
6 hour's time he would send the police to check where
7 they were.
8 I didn't have any patience to wait, so I went
9 to the civilian police, and the military police was
10 there too and there were military men there. Everyone
11 was there, the military and the civilian police. I
12 asked them for an explanation. They told me that they
13 were not there.
14 Then I went to the morgue to check there, and
15 I came across a friend whom I knew and I asked, "Have
16 my brothers been killed? Are they lying there?" And
17 he told me, "No," that they were someone else, some
18 other people.
19 At the end, they were found at Kaonik. A
20 friend of my brother's told me they had reached Kaonik,
21 and afterwards my brothers told me they had been held
22 for about two hours in the toilet in the bus station,
23 and after that they were transferred to Kaonik.
24 Before going to Kaonik, before they left to
25 Kaonik --
1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers,
2 could you please bear in mind that your questions have
3 to directly concern events appearing in the
4 indictment. So will you, please, stick to that,
5 because we cannot, as you know, recount all the events
6 in detail that occurred so long ago. So, please, limit
7 yourself to the things that are directly related to
8 what we are dealing with in this trial.
9 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour. There
10 were two points that had to be made, and I'm afraid
11 they've gotten a little bit gone around.
12 JUDGE MAY: Let's go on to paragraph 15.
13 There's no need to deal with Kaonik or with the 25th of
14 January, about which we've heard.
15 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Judge. You're
16 satisfied with the Kula digging?
17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, yes.
18 MS. SOMERS: Okay, fine. Thank you very
19 much. I'm sorry, which number was it?
20 JUDGE MAY: 15.
21 MS. SOMERS: 15; fine.
22 Q. Are you familiar with a woman named Davorka
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE MAY: This is objected to. I hadn't
1 read it. This is about the accused's sister, yes. It
2 seems to me that it's not relevant, what the accused's
3 sister said.
4 MS. SOMERS: There are relationships, I
5 think, that the Court should be made aware of, which I
6 think the names have come before this Court on numerous
7 occasions and I believe --
8 JUDGE MAY: Right. The sister, and she's the
9 girlfriend of Pasko Ljubicic, according to this.
10 MS. SOMERS: Yes. I wanted to get that
11 evidence in and just the relationship to the radio
12 station, which I think is important and does go to the
13 persecution counts.
14 JUDGE MAY: Well, speaking for myself, I'm
15 not going to admit the evidence of what the sister
16 said. Now, let's move on.
17 MS. SOMERS:
18 Q. Can I just ask, please, are you familiar with
19 any relationship between, so that we have it in
20 evidence, between Davorka Kordic and Pasko Ljubicic?
21 A. Yes. Davorka Kordic and Pasko Ljubicic for
22 some time had a romantic relationship. They were boy
23 and girlfriend, and it was a big love affair between
25 Q. Was it during the war?
1 A. It started sometime before the war, and
2 during the war.
3 Q. And did they ever marry, to your knowledge?
4 A. No, they never married. At the end, they
5 parted, and he married another girl from Vitez and she
6 married someone else.
7 Q. Did you ever see, on TV Busovaca or any other
8 television station, Dario Kordic and any HVO officials?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you describe the times briefly that you
11 saw them?
12 A. I saw them sometime in 1992, June, July, when
13 the HVO troops were taking an oath of allegiance. And
14 Dusko Grubesic lined up his troops belonging to the
15 Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade, and he saluted to Dario
16 Kordic and offered him his troops to review. And Dario
17 reported back, and Dusko Grubesic reported to him.
18 Kordic saluted back, and Dusko Grubesic reported to
20 Q. Was Mr. Kordic [realtime transcript read in
21 error "Dusko Grubesic"] in uniform at the time?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you recall any press conferences at which
24 any HVO officials, other than --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. -- other than Dario Kordic, or Kordic with
2 other officials, were broadcast on television, and if
3 so, do you recall if any of the content was offensive
4 to any of the Muslim people, if you recall?
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me for interrupting.
7 There's a correction that Ms. Verhaag has indicated.
8 It should be on line 3, 32(3). It's not Dusko Grubesic
9 in uniform. Dario Kordic in uniform.
10 Q. I'm sorry, please continue.
11 A. What was the question? Could you please
12 repeat it?
13 Q. The question was did you ever witness on
14 television any press conferences in which Kordic, --
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. -- or Kordic in combination with other
17 officials, spoke, and was there any content offensive
18 to the Muslim people?
19 A. Yes. This was happening almost every
20 Tuesday. There was a press centre at Busovaca
21 Television, and it was broadcast on Tuesdays. When
22 journalists -- I don't know which journalists
23 attended. They asked questions, and the propaganda
24 always was that an HVO brigade or soldiers had been
25 attacked by Muslim forces or the Mujahedin, and words
1 like that were used.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 A. They were always being attacked.
4 Q. Returning to your husband's situation after
5 his release from Kaonik, after he was exchanged, did he
6 remain at liberty, a free person?
7 A. No. After he was exchanged, he came home,
8 fearing that something could happen to me and the
9 child. He was free for only three days, and then
10 military policemen came to fetch him and took him again
11 to Kaonik, forcing him to dig trenches at Strane, Kula,
12 Loncari, wherever they needed them.
13 Q. Was he sleeping at Kaonik or was it a
14 different type of arrangement?
15 A. When they took him for the first time, he
16 slept at Kaonik for two days. Then he was released
17 home, and he was taken to dig trenches from our house.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 A. And then after some time, a courier would
20 come with written call-up papers.
21 Q. Where were you living in mid-May of 1993?
22 A. I was living in my mother's house, because I
23 had been chased out of my apartment. A military
24 policeman came and told me that I had to leave my
25 apartment in five minutes' time, to pick up my personal
1 belongings. I collected some clothes for the child and
2 left, and I asked him, "Where should I go?" And he
3 said, "I don't care where you go." I asked him, "Let
4 me go to Zenica." He said, "You can't, but see where
5 you can go."
6 Q. How long had you lived in the house where you
7 had been evicted from?
8 A. From 1986 until that time when these
9 policemen forced me out.
10 Q. Did you need permission to live in your
11 mother's house after you were evicted from your house,
12 and if so, who gave you that permission?
13 A. I went because they were evicting people from
14 all houses and they were settling refugees in those
15 houses, people from Stranjani and the surroundings of
16 Zenica, and they were being put up in these houses, the
17 families having been thrown out. And so I feared that
18 would happen to me a second time, so I went to the
19 Sumarija building and asked Dusko Grubesic to give me
20 some kind of certificate so they wouldn't throw me out
21 again. I told him that I had been evicted and that I
22 could be evicted again, and then he gave me a piece of
23 paper saying that I would be safe in my mother's house
24 and that no one would throw me out again.
25 MS. SOMERS: I would ask the usher --
1 A. However --
2 MS. SOMERS: -- excuse me -- to please
3 present Exhibit Z1727.
4 A. Yes. This document -- I went to Dusko
5 Grubesic, to Sumarija. I found him there upstairs, and
6 he told Dragan Tomacic to write that nobody should
7 disturb me, that I should be safe there.
8 Q. Is this a copy of the document that you were
9 given at the time?
10 A. Yes. Yes, it is a copy.
11 Q. One quick question about you leaving your own
12 home. Do you know if a Croat family moved in after you
13 were evicted from your home?
14 A. Yes. That very moment I left, they took a
15 Croatian family inside. When I came back to pick up
16 some things I had forgotten, the next day, I knocked at
17 the door and asked them whether they would let me take
18 some of the child's things and the photographs, and she
19 said, "No, you can't take anything. I've lost many of
20 my own souvenirs, and you have nothing to look for
22 Q. Do you know a woman named Fatima Ibriljic,
23 and if so, how do you know her?
24 A. Yes, I do. She was living very close by to
25 my house. She was married in Visoko, her husband and
1 son were there, and she came to pick up some documents
2 in January. She was there when the war broke out. She
3 couldn't leave; she was pregnant --
4 Q. What did she want from you?
5 A. She asked me, as I was more familiar with
6 Busovaca and its people, to help her to get out, and I
7 promised that we would go to Frano Kristo to ask him to
8 let her go because she was about to deliver and there
9 was no delivery ward there. So we went to see Frano.
10 Frano agreed to see me and not her. She was crying.
11 On the way, we met Dario Kordic, he was
12 coming out of the church with his two bodyguards and a
13 team of reporters from Radio Television Busovaca. I
14 tried to approach him but his bodyguards wanted to
15 prevent me; however, Dario allowed me to come up to
16 him. I said, "Hello," and I asked, "Where have you
17 been? I can't see you on television and we haven't
18 been seeing you at all," and he said he had been in
19 Novi Travnik and that because of the war he couldn't
20 come to Busovaca for some time.
21 Then I asked him if I could go to Zenica,
22 that I couldn't endure it there anymore, that I had
23 been evicted from my apartment, and he said, "What are
24 you going to do in Zenica? There is starvation
25 there." I said, "Nevermind. I'd like to go. I can't
1 carry on here anymore. You know what's happening
2 here. And if I can't go, could at least Fatima go
3 because she's pregnant?"
4 Q. Did he help you?
5 A. Yes, he helped Fatima. He told me, "Go and
6 see Frano Kristo and tell him that I said that she
7 should be given a permit to leave Busovaca." Then I
8 said, "What if Frano doesn't believe me, because I have
9 already been to see him? He may not believe me that I
10 have seen you," because it was very hard to see him and
11 even harder to talk to him. He said, "If Frano doesn't
12 give it to you, come and look for me." And I asked
13 him, "Where can I find you? Give me your telephone
14 number so I can look for you." Then he told his
15 bodyguard to accompany us to Frano's so that Frano
16 should give Fatima the certificate that she could leave
17 Busovaca, which Frano did. A day or two later, Fatima
18 left with an UNPROFOR ambulance. She was driven to
19 Zenica. But I was not allowed to leave; I stayed on.
20 Q. Are you familiar with a murder of an
21 individual named Ibro Hodzic in Busovaca in January of
22 1993 --
23 JUDGE MAY: Before we go to that, can we have
24 a date for this conversation with Mr. Kordic? Can the
25 witness give us a date, roughly?
1 MS. SOMERS:
2 Q. Ms. Neslanovic, you've heard the Judge's
3 question. Are you able to give us a month, an
4 approximate month and a year for this conversation?
5 A. It was in 1993, I think in July. June or
6 July, roughly about then.
7 Q. Returning to the death of Ibro Hodzic, were
8 you aware of it?
9 A. Yes, I heard about this event. They were
10 saying that Ibro Hodzic had been killed in his
11 apartment by Dragic --
12 Q. Were you aware of any suspects?
13 A. Yes. They said that Condra had done it.
14 Before that, on the 25th of January, Mirsad Delija had
15 been killed in his house when they were searching
16 Muslim houses allegedly looking for weapons and who
17 knows what else, and Mirsad Delija was then killed in
18 his own house, and then Ibro Hodzic later on.
19 Q. Let's return to Condra. Did you personally
20 ever have any encounters of any type with Condra?
21 A. Yes. Yes.
22 Q. How did that happen?
23 A. Condra would come across the way to the house
24 where I was living to see some friends who had moved in
25 there from Zenica. He and Dragic, and Cicko, they
1 would gather there. There was a girl that they were
2 all courting, and that is why they would congregate
4 Then one day, they were sitting there and
5 joking, and they took my son, who was playing in the
6 yard, they placed him against the wall, and they took a
7 pistol. They were playing around. Anyway, they put
8 him there like a target, and when they fired their
9 pistols, they would hit the facade, sometimes the roof
10 of the house, and then bits of tiles would fall on his
11 head. When the second shot was fired, my son yelled,
12 "Mummy." I heard the shots. I didn't know what was
13 happening. When I came out, I saw my son with his back
14 against the wall, he was terrified. I came up to him,
15 I placed him behind my back, and the person holding the
16 pistol, Cicko, said to me, "I could kill you too
17 without being held to account by anyone." I took the
18 child inside. I just left the house immediately and
19 went to see Branko Sliskovic and told him what had
21 Q. What did Branko Sliskovic say to you?
22 A. I told him who did it, and he said, "I'm
23 surprised that Condra Dragic should do that because
24 they are my Anto's escorts." He was surprised that
25 they should be behaving in that way, that they were not
1 with his Anto. They only escorted him -- they would
2 leave Anto only when they went on particular missions;
3 otherwise, they would always be with him. Then he said
4 he would call Anto.
5 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Somers, I think we've gone
6 far enough into this matter.
7 MS. SOMERS: Okay.
8 JUDGE MAY: Let us move on as quickly as
10 MS. SOMERS: If I may just link up Condra
11 directly through the next question.
12 Q. If you can tell us very quickly, did you go
13 to see Anto Sliskovic, and if so, was he alone?
14 A. Yes. After seeing Branko, he told me, "Go
15 and see my Anto. You know where he's working." So I
16 went to his office, Anto's office. I asked his
17 secretary whether I could see him.
18 Q. Was he alone?
19 A. No, he wasn't alone. Condra was already
20 sitting with him. When I came in to ask whether he
21 could see me, Condra was there, and then Anto refused
22 to receive me. He told me to come some other day.
23 Q. You mentioned earlier in connection with this
24 story that you were discussing in private session about
25 the Jokers. Were you ever told who commanded the
1 Jokers, and if so, who told you?
2 A. Daro said that he was a Joker, that Pasko
3 Ljubicic was their commander --
4 Q. Is Daro the same Darko who you referred to
5 earlier in the private session?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. What did he say?
8 A. He said that he was a soldier, that he was
9 getting his salary from Zagreb. I asked him how come
10 he had so much freedom, and he said that he was a
11 special soldier, he was not a front line soldier. He
12 went only on special missions. He differed from the
13 others. He had a higher salary than the others, that
14 his salary was coming from Zagreb, that this special
15 unit was being paid by Zagreb, and they were called the
17 Q. Did Daro tell you who commanded it? I'm
18 afraid I didn't hear your answer earlier.
19 A. Yes. He told me that Pasko Ljubicic was the
21 Q. Did Daro tell you what types of military
22 actions the Jokers engaged in?
23 A. Yes, he told me that they only went on
24 special assignments, if something had to be taken or
25 reconnoitred, and that they went on special missions
1 and then they would be free again, until the next
2 special assignment. They didn't go to the front, they
3 didn't go to the trenches, that he was a special
4 soldier, he told me.
5 Q. Briefly, why did you come in contact with
6 Daro? What brought you in contact with Daro?
7 A. There was a girl there who came from Guca
8 Gora as a refugee.
9 Q. Did you keep company with her?
10 A. Yes. Yes. There were no other young girls,
11 she was lonely, so I helped her a little.
12 Q. Were you with her when Daro came to see her?
13 A. Yes. Yes, we were together several times
14 when he would come. The two of us would be sitting
15 together and he would join us.
16 Q. And these conversations about the Jokers
17 occurred during those times?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you ever see Tihomir Blaskic in person?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you explain when and with whom, if with
23 A. I would see him in the municipality; I would
24 see him with Dario Kordic; I would see him with
25 Kostroman; in the company of Zoran Maric. The leading
1 figures in Busovaca.
2 Q. Was he ever in the municipality building
3 where you were working?
4 A. Yes. Yes, several times.
5 Q. Did you ever see Anto Valenta in that
6 municipality building?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was he in the company of Kordic ever?
9 A. Yes. At the press centre conferences, on
10 television, they would appear together, and on other
11 occasions too. They were frequently together in
12 Dario's office and ...
13 Q. Can you describe where Dario Kordic had his
15 A. Dario Kordic had his office in the
16 municipality building, then in the post office, in the
17 basement, and at the Ivancica Villa, at Tisovac, in the
18 motel there.
19 Q. Did he always maintain his office in the
20 municipality building, even when he had other offices?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you happen to notice, in the time before
23 the attack, the HVO attack, on the 25th of January, in
24 which of these three offices Dario Kordic spent most of
25 his time?
1 A. In the post office and also at Tisovac, but
2 all these places are very close. So in the course of
3 the day, he could visit all three places.
4 Q. Do you know whether or not during the war
5 Dario Kordic's family, his wife and children, were
6 living with him in Busovaca?
7 A. Yes, they were living with him in Busovaca.
8 Q. Did you ever notice Dario Kordic to be gone
9 from Busovaca for several days at a time?
10 A. Yes. He wouldn't come to the office, we
11 wouldn't see him; otherwise, we would frequently come
12 across him, and then we would notice his absence of a
13 couple of days.
14 Q. Were you able to comment on the type of
15 transportation that would be available to HVO persons
16 in Busovaca, particularly HVO officials?
17 A. There were jeeps, luxury automobiles,
18 Mercedes, but mostly Land Rovers or jeeps, as we call
20 Q. Do you know, were there any working
22 A. Yes, they would come too occasionally, not
23 frequently, but two or three times I saw them land at
24 the stadium in Busovaca.
25 Q. One final question tying up something you
1 said earlier. When you spoke of Dragic, Condra, and
2 Juka, were they all Croat HVO soldiers, to your
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. SOMERS: No further questions.
7 Excuse me. If I could indulge the Court.
8 There was one exhibit that was attached and I didn't
9 realise it was attached to the back of Z1727. If the
10 usher could just point it out to the witness, it is
11 simply a confirmation of her leaving Busovaca, and that
12 would be the --
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. SOMERS: I've made a mistake. I beg your
15 pardon. There was one other exhibit, if the Court
16 would let me just put it in front of the witness.
17 There is also Z175.1. I do apologise. It was buried
18 under my other document.
19 Q. Can you just identify it?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you recognise the signature on the
22 document in front of you, 175.1, on the right-hand
24 A. Yes, I do. Only this part, Kordic, I
25 recognise that that is Dario Kordic's signature.
1 Q. In this document, which is an appointment of
2 certain positions, can you just read into the record
3 what Pasko Ljubicic was appointed to, and nothing more?
4 A. Pasko Ljubicic was appointed to the Civil
5 Defence as an officer. At the time, I was not aware of
6 that because Pasko Ljubicic didn't have an office
8 Q. Thank you very much.
9 MS. SOMERS: I apologise for having left
10 these out. No further questions.
11 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now for half an
13 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.
15 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, may I just read
16 into the record an exhibit number that has been
17 assigned to those notes which are under seal? The
18 exhibit number is Z1437,3. Thank you.
19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski.
20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
21 Your Honours.
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:
23 Q. Mrs. Neslanovic, good afternoon. I'm Mitko
24 Naumovski, a lawyer from Zagreb, and I'm one of the
25 Defence counsel for Mr. Kordic. I will ask you some
1 questions. I should like to ask you not to answer them
2 immediately, to wait for the interpretation of my
3 questions into the languages of the Tribunal.
4 Mrs. Neslanovic, you spoke to the
5 investigators of the Tribunal on three occasions,
6 didn't you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you also make a statement to the state
9 security centre in Zenica?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When was that; do you remember that?
12 A. I believe it was in 1995.
13 Q. Did you perhaps give a statement to the
14 commission on the establishment of war crimes or some
15 other agency?
16 A. I don't know. I gave my statements, but they
17 were from the International Community, and who they
18 were, I suppose they were investigators. That is what
19 they were called, I guess. I wouldn't really know.
20 Q. I'm asking you because all we have are the
21 statements that you gave to the Tribunal investigators
22 and not the other statements that you made to other
24 A. No, only the Tribunal investigators spoke to
25 me. Those at the state security centre only took me
1 in, but they did not interview me.
2 Q. All right, very well. Thank you.
3 Let us follow the same order as in your
4 examination-in-chief, but just a few words. We do not
5 think it's particularly material, but this was raised
6 during the chief examination and I have to ask you,
7 that is, something about Mr. Kordic's mother.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. We can agree that she treated both you and
10 your brothers and other members of your family and that
11 nobody ever complained of her treatment of you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And she not only treated you during her
14 working hours at the health centre, you also went to
15 her home and she would receive you privately out of
16 friendliness, simply to help you?
17 A. She was a physician on duty, and when she
18 would have no patients, she would go home. So she
19 often did the examinations at home, but she worked at
20 the health centre. But then she would go home and she
21 would also receive patients there. That is, if
22 somebody came to look for her at the health centre and
23 she wouldn't be there, then they could go to her home.
24 Q. What I meant was that you were a neighbour,
25 so it was quite easy for you. That is what I meant.
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. And you know that she suffered a stroke in
4 A. Yes, I have heard about it.
5 Q. And although very many doctors left, she
6 nevertheless had to go on working in 1992 and 1993, and
7 so she did work in 1992 and 1993?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. That is what this document says, 1437,1, that
10 is, that although she was also ill, she tried to take
11 care of everybody in Busovaca as best she could; we
12 agree about that?
13 A. What I heard is that she suffered a stroke in
14 1996, 1997, not before that, that that was the time
15 when she suffered a stroke.
16 Q. No. The first one was in 1990, and the
17 second one was in April 1994. That's why I'm asking
19 A. Oh, I see. I didn't know about the first
21 Q. And the last question about that: We shall
22 agree that she was a good physician, wasn't she?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Now a few questions relative to
25 your work.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So you worked from 1997 [sic] and, you say,
3 until January 1993; is that so?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you performed your duties throughout
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And therefore in 1992, nobody chased you away
9 from your work?
10 A. No, but they told me, in 1993, and that is in
11 January 1993, not to come back for work anymore.
12 Q. But nobody forced you to sign any papers in
14 A. No.
15 Q. And in 1992, you even asked for an unpaid
16 leave in addition to your regular annual leave?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And in November 1992, you also did some extra
19 work, and you were rewarded. I think you received 30
20 per cent of your salary more. You went to clean the
21 office premises, something like that, isn't it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And as the cleaning lady in the municipal
24 hall, you had free access to all the offices?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Likewise, you could also be present at
2 various press conferences that you mentioned?
3 A. Yes. Well, those press conferences I watched
4 on television because it was already after the war
5 broke out. There were press conferences before the war
6 too. And I could see them as they came into the
7 municipal hall or came out of the small hall in the --
8 small room in the municipal hall where they usually
9 held those press conferences or meetings or whatever.
10 Q. So we agree that the press conferences took
11 place in the municipal hall, that is, in the meeting
12 room, isn't it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I believe we shall also agree that you
15 personally -- that your movements personally were not
16 constrained. You could go wherever, you could go to
17 the building of the command or the police building or
19 A. Oh, no. The police would not allow a
20 neighbour to visit a neighbour or even talk, and they
21 also forbid us to leave our houses. We were told that
22 we were not to leave our houses at all, even though I
23 did not observe that and I just went out of my house
24 because there were things I had to do.
25 Q. Well, that is what I asked you. You
1 personally moved about freely around the town, wherever
2 you wanted?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mrs. Neslanovic, you told us today about an
5 understanding between Serbs who lived in those two
6 villages near Busovaca and the HVO regarding the
7 distribution of weapons at Kaonik?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. But you have no direct knowledge of that, do
11 A. I heard it from young men who came after the
12 Sajtovici barracks were liberated. When the JNA
13 withdrew from the barracks, then the Territorial
14 Defence, or whatever it was called, the army, was to
15 come there to share the booty with the HVO soldiers.
16 And the HVO soldiers were already in the barracks at
17 the time when they were supposed to enter together, and
18 an armed conflict happened then.
19 Q. Yes, yes, we know that. Just a moment.
20 I'm sorry I had to interrupt you. I do
21 understand all that, but the Court has already had an
22 opportunity to hear testimony about the distribution of
23 weapons, and who negotiated with whom, and so on and so
24 forth. But the negotiations were conducted between the
25 delegation of the crisis staff of the Busovaca
1 municipality, including the representatives of both
2 Muslims and Croats, and on the other end the JNA on the
3 other side?
4 A. Yes, but citizens and in Katici, and they are
5 mostly people of Serb ethnicity, and those soldiers who
6 were already in the barracks and from Podjele and those
7 who lived there, I mean the local people, they were
8 already in the Sajtovici barracks as a reserve force.
9 Q. Specifically, do you know that there was a
10 joint Croat and Muslim delegation in Busovaca, during
11 the negotiations which took place at the higher JNA
12 command in Zenica, included a Croat, Florijan
13 Glavocevic, and a Muslim, Asim Sunulahpasic, Zoran
14 Maric, and Besim Spahic, a Muslim who at that time was
15 the mayor of Zenica, that was the delegations, and they
16 were negotiating with the JNA delegation on the other
18 A. I don't know that. I know what was happening
19 here. I don't know what kind of agreement they
20 reached. I know what happened there.
21 When the weapons were to be taken over, a
22 conflict took place because HVO soldiers had already
23 entered the barracks. And Sead Mesic was wounded, and
24 a Muslim fellow who had come there to share those
25 weapons with Croat soldiers withdrew after the JNA
2 Q. But what I don't agree with is your statement
3 that the Croat -- because it was an agreement between
4 the Bosnian Croats on one hand and the JNA on another.
5 A. No, nothing about the agreement in Zenica. I
6 know about the civilians and the soldiers who were in
7 the barracks who came from Podjele, who went there from
8 the reserve force, those who were in the barracks.
9 Q. Yes, yes, you already told us that.
10 Since you are mentioning Sunulahpasic was
11 wounded and he's a Muslim, do you know who took him to
12 a doctor?
13 A. I don't. I know that he was wounded and he
14 was my neighbour, and he was in the vicinity and we
15 went to pay him a visit. Who took him to the hospital,
16 I don't know. All I know is that he was wounded.
17 Q. Perhaps I'll refresh your memory by saying
18 that it was Franjo Sliskovic who took him in his car.
19 A. I don't really know.
20 Q. Right. But if we're referring to the wounded
21 on that occasion, and the Court has already heard about
22 that, a Croat, Darko Vuleta was wounded?
23 A. I don't know. I know that Sead was wounded
24 there because he was my neighbour, and that is how I
25 knew that he was wounded, that there had been an armed
1 conflict, so I don't know who else was wounded. I
2 heard about him.
3 Q. Let me ask you another question on this
5 Do you have any knowledge that apart from the
6 agreement on the distribution of weapons between Croats
7 and Muslims in these barracks in Sajtovici, or rather
8 Kaonik, and that was a local agreement, about 100
9 Muslims from Zenica arrived and were in front of the
11 A. No, I don't know that.
12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well.
13 Your Honours, I'm not going into that topic
14 anymore. I'm not going to dwell on it, because I
15 believe you have heard a great deal about it already.
16 So let us move on to January 1993.
17 Q. Did you go to Kacuni sometime in late
18 January, around the 20th, 21st of January, 1993?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you have any direct knowledge as to what
21 happened in Kacuni on the 24th of January, 1993, and
22 who was killed there?
23 A. No, I don't know. I didn't go there. I
24 don't know.
25 Q. Do you agree with me that it was on that day
1 that the Kacuni-Grabovac road was closed, that one
2 could not drive through Kacuni?
3 A. I know that the road was closed and the
4 roadblocks were reinstituted before that and that the
5 traffic was stopped, but why, I do not know. I know
6 that there were some misunderstandings and that there
7 were some roadblocks there.
8 Q. But we agree that these roadblocks were put
9 up by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I mean in Kacuni?
10 A. I don't know who it was. All I know was that
11 there was a roadblock there and that they were checking
12 who was coming in and who was coming out. But who
13 manned that roadblock, I don't really know, because up
14 there, there was both Croat and Muslim villages.
15 Q. But whose troops were in Kacuni? Kacuni was
16 the seat of the Territorial Defence or, rather, the
17 barracks of the [indiscernible] Brigade.
18 A. In Kacuni, yes, there were troops up there.
19 Q. But it was the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
20 A. The Territorial Defence first and then the
21 army, yes.
22 Q. Very well, thank you. Are you aware of
23 another detail relative to this roadblock at Kacuni?
24 Do you know that around the 21st of January, '93, there
25 was an attempt to abduct Ignac Kostroman and
1 Tihomir Blaskic at that roadblock?
2 A. No, I don't know that.
3 Q. Now, a few questions about the 25th of
4 January, '93.
5 You, your husband and your son were, you say,
6 in the neighbouring house, in a shelter, together with
7 Croats and Serbs who used to live there?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And later on you say men were taken away to
11 A. Yes, the Muslims.
12 Q. Oh, the Muslims. Your husband was taken away
13 under somewhat different circumstances than the rest of
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The policeman, Josip Maric, was there, and he
17 talked to your husband about that, didn't he?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Would you agree with me that it was Josip
20 Maric who told your husband that they had come to take
21 him to prison?
22 A. No. To a separate place, to a safer place,
23 and it was called prison.
24 Q. But it was that Croat policeman who also said
25 to your husband the following, and I'm quoting: "It is
1 up to you to say whether you want to stay here or come
2 with us, but it will be safer for you if you came with
3 us because somebody who does not know you might kill
5 A. Yes. It was safer for him to be in the
6 prison than to stay free, that is, at home, for
7 instance, because there anyone could kill him. So that
8 there, there in the camp, the chances were better that
9 he would keep his life than if he were free in the
11 Q. The final question about that. Your husband
12 decided himself to go with them, I mean, it was of his
13 own free will, wasn't it?
14 A. Well, he said, "Well, if it's safer there,
15 then I'll go there, if you can guarantee that nothing
16 will happen to me there," and he guaranteed that
17 nothing would happen to him there, that he would take
18 care of him.
19 Q. Very well. So your husband spent some seven
20 or eight days at Kaonik, didn't he?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And he wasn't beaten, he wasn't harassed by
24 A. No, he was not beaten because they knew him.
25 Q. Just one more thing about your husband. You
1 said that when he came home, he had to go and dig
2 trenches wherever it was necessary.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You also said today, and the Prosecutor
5 interrupted you, that he received a summons in writing
6 to report to a place where he was to dig.
7 A. Yes. In the beginning, they would come after
8 him. Later on, they would send a written summons that
9 at such and such a time he should go and dig trenches
10 at such and such a place.
11 Q. Who was it who brought those summons?
12 A. It was a young man, rather, a man of Muslim
13 ethnicity --
14 Q. Excuse me. Just a moment.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
18 Your Honours.
19 Q. You worked at the municipal hall, and you
20 more or less knew the organisation, which department
21 existed, so on and so forth.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So we can agree, I suppose, that in the
24 former state and also in the present state,
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the former Yugoslavia, there was
1 an institution called the civilian defence.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. At the time when your husband went to dig
4 trenches, who was the chief of the civil defence in
6 A. It was Viktor Maric.
7 Q. I suppose you also know who were bound by
8 that kind of duty. Who were people who were bound to
9 dish out certain duties within the civilian defence?
10 A. Practically all citizens who were not
11 militarily-able were dished out various duties in the
12 civilian defence, and my husband was militarily-able;
13 that is, all of them, including women and children, all
14 those who could help, for instance, rescue somebody
15 from the ruins, put out a fire, so on and so forth;
16 that is, all those citizens who could move around and
17 were not militarily-able, were not of military age.
18 Q. So we can agree that your husband would
19 receive summons signed by Viktor Maric, who was the
20 chief of the civil defence in Busovaca?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And that was his labour obligation, in a way,
23 wasn't it?
24 A. Yes, in a way.
25 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, a few questions
1 about your brothers, and there is no need to mention
2 their names. You said that you had three brothers.
3 Were your brothers members of the Territorial Defence
4 of Busovaca?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And they were members of that particular
7 Busovaca detachment, as it was called?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could you speak up a bit, please, because I'm
10 afraid the interpreters can't hear you properly. Thank
12 Your brothers were at Kadica Strana on the
13 24th and 25th of 1993?
14 A. No, they were not. They were at home. That
15 was somebody else. It's not far off, but it's a
16 different street. They were at their own home. On
17 that particular day, I happened to have been with
18 them. On the 24th, I was at their place.
19 Q. When did you leave their house on the 24th?
20 A. I left before dark, perhaps it was 6.00 or
21 7.00 p.m., thereabouts.
22 Q. So you personally have no knowledge as to
23 where your brothers were on the night between the 24th
24 and 25th of January, 1993.
25 A. I know that they were at home. They were
1 safeguarding their house because their families were
3 Q. You spoke today about the arrest of your
4 brother several days later, but I noticed that in none
5 of the previous statements did you make mention of one
6 particular detail, that Anto Sliskovic supervised their
8 A. No, I didn't mention that because it was a
9 long period of time and I had to try and remember each
10 detail, and my brother told me that later on and he
11 referred to him as captain, what are you doing with
12 them, and so on.
13 Q. When did your brother tell you that?
14 A. Well, my brother told me that after the
15 arrest. When I go back and remember all those details
16 and think about it, and then he said that Anto had
17 personally supervised his arrest.
18 Q. This is only something that you heard later
19 on; you don't know it directly yourself.
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. Thank you. You mentioned today that the
22 wrong conclusion was made that your brothers had been
23 killed and that you then looked for them all over
24 Busovaca, and in addition to that, you contacted Dusko
25 Grubesic to ask him about it; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You said that he was the commander of the
3 Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade, but you did not say
4 where the brigade's headquarters was.
5 A. Well, Dusko personally was at his
6 headquarters, that's where he had his offices, in the
7 Sumarija building on the ground floor, where the TO
8 offices had previously been located. The brigade, that
9 is to say, their brigade, had their offices at the
10 stadium and in the primary school building and in the
11 barracks as well and in the Udruga.
12 Q. But the headquarters was in the Sumarija
13 building; is that correct?
14 A. Yes. Dusko was in the Sumarija building.
15 Q. Thank you. If I have understood you
16 correctly, and from your previous statements and from
17 what you said today, Dusko Grubesic made a great deal
18 of effort to locate your brothers; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And he undertook -- he checked up on them; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You said today, when you talked to him about
24 the fear you had for your brothers, that he told you,
25 that is to say, that Dusko Grubesic, commander of the
1 Busovaca Brigade, told you that he had issued an order
2 that no single Muslim in Busovaca would be killed.
3 A. Must not be killed. He used the word
4 "must." "Not a single Muslim must be killed anymore
5 in Busovaca," that's what he said.
6 Q. Yes, and I noticed that you used that word,
7 "must not be any Muslim killed," but I have in front
8 of me notes from your conversation with the
9 investigator, dated the 31st of September, 1997, and at
10 the end, the translator, the interpreter says that
11 these notes represent the verbatim record of your
12 conversation with the investigator.
13 In that particular statement, and we just
14 have the English version in front of us, on page 5, the
15 last paragraph, in that paragraph, you told the
16 investigator that Dusko Grubesic said the following:
17 "Don't worry. I have issued an order that not a
18 single man in Busovaca will be killed anymore."
19 A. No. He said, "No single Muslim must be
20 killed," that's what he said, because it was only the
21 Muslims that were killed at the time because the
22 conflict was between the Muslims and the Croats. And
23 he told me, "I ordered that not a single Muslim must be
24 killed anymore," that no Muslims should be killed
25 anymore -- must be killed anymore, although there had
1 been quite a few of them who had been killed before
2 that. And several days elapsed, and then he said that
3 he had ordered this. He didn't tell me who he had
4 ordered it -- who he had issued the orders to, but he
5 said that not a single other Muslim may be killed.
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
7 Mr. Naumovski, the Chamber has heard in the
8 examination-in-chief this quote, so there's no point in
9 going back to that. We have already heard it, that not
10 a single Muslim may be killed. So let us move forward,
12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
13 Your Honour. I just wanted to point out the difference
14 in the previous statement because the Muslims are not
15 mentioned in the previous statement. It makes
16 reference to "anybody," so that was my reaction. But
17 if you say that we have exhausted that point, I can
18 move forward, yes.
19 MS. SOMERS: If I may, please, just comment
20 that what Mr. Naumovski is reading from is not a
21 statement at all signed by the witness. It is simply
22 what is called "Witness Information" taken by
23 investigators. So this is not ratified by the
25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you to
1 my learned friend for that assistance. I have just
2 made that point myself. Thank you. We may proceed.
3 Q. So you found your brothers, thank God, safe
4 and sound. They were in Kaonik and they were released
6 A. Yes, but they had been beaten up and
8 Q. They were released on the 8th of February
9 when the exchange took place; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I now have a few questions with respect to
12 when you left your house. You described the
13 circumstances under which you were forced to leave here
14 today, and now I should like to ask you whether you
15 agree with me when I say that from 1992, ever since the
16 war began in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that
17 several large groups of refugees and displaced persons
18 had come into Busovaca; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And there was a large group of refugees from
21 the Jajce area in 1992?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. There was also a very large group made up of
24 the inhabitants, that is to say, Croats from Travnik
25 and the surrounding villages, Guca Gora, Slanja, and
1 all that area, and in the summer of 1993, they came,
2 and a figure of 18.000 is mentioned, which means a
3 great influx of refugees to the area.
4 A. Yes. I don't know the exact number of those
5 refugees, but there were a considerable number. That
6 was where their centre was, and some of them stayed
7 there. Others went off, depending on how they found
8 accommodation and lodging and anything else. People
9 who were not satisfied with the accommodation they got
10 there, they would go further on and look for other
11 accommodation elsewhere.
12 Q. When you were forced to leave your house,
13 some refugees took up residence in your house; is that
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You mentioned a detail today that when you
17 came to look for your things the next day, that the
18 refugees said, "Unfortunately, madam, we had to leave
19 all our memories behind." Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. After that, you lived for a time
22 in your mother's house. I don't want to take too much
23 time on that point, but what is important is Z1227,
24 that is to say, that you asked the commander of the
25 Busovaca Brigade, Dusko Grubesic, to issue a
1 certificate to you.
2 A. Yes, to protect me in some way.
3 Q. You went to the Sumarija building, to the
4 command headquarters there, and you were issued that
5 certificate there, were you not?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. It speaks for itself, but basically it said
8 that nobody must trouble you in the house in which you
9 were living, that is to say, in your mother's house,
10 that you would be protected there.
11 You told us that you tried to leave
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You asked UNPROFOR to help you leave; is that
16 A. Yes. First of all, I asked the authorities
17 in the police. Frano was there, Frano Kristo, first of
18 all, I asked him, and he told me that I was to go to
19 UNPROFOR, and "if UNPROFOR gives you a certificate that
20 they would be taking you out, then we shall also issue
21 you a certificate giving you permission to leave."
22 Then I went to UNPROFOR to ask them whether
23 they would be willing to issue me a certificate to
24 leave Busovaca, and they told me that Zenica had
25 accused them of performing ethnic cleansing, if they
1 were to export or allow Muslims to leave under pressure
2 of any kind. So they told me that they were accused of
3 performing ethnical cleansing by Zenica and so they
4 refused to take me out.
5 Q. When you spoke about Frano Kristo, you just
6 said that he was chief of police, but he was chief of
7 the civilian police, was he not?
8 A. Yes, although there was the army there as
9 well. There was the army and the police. So I don't
10 really know.
11 Q. But he was in the civilian police, I think
12 you agree with that, and that's what you said in your
14 A. Yes, but he did not have the authority to
15 issue orders to let me go. He had to ask Anto
16 Sliskovic or some of the other soldiers who made the
17 decision, so he had to ask them first whether to allow
18 me to leave, which means, that as a civil policeman, he
19 did not decide on the fates of civilians.
20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
21 just a detail which I omitted a moment ago when the
22 witness spoke about UNPROFOR and the assistance to
23 leave and Muslims to leave, Witness Sepa spoke about
24 that subject, and that is the detail that I wish to
25 bring up. He mentioned services in the form of
1 transport because he was stationed in Busovaca. Thank
3 Q. I wanted to emphasise that he was in the
4 civilian police force; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. You received another certificate,
7 apart from the one that Dusko Grubesic gave you.
8 A. Yes, I received a certificate when I was to
9 leave Busovaca. First of all, Nikica Petrovic called
10 me and had a talk with me and said, well, he would
11 allow me and my child to leave, to go to Zenica, and he
12 ordered Frano to give me a written statement or
13 certificate giving me free passage to leave Busovaca.
14 Q. I had in mind another certificate. Did you
15 receive a certificate, that is to say, you did receive
16 a certificate, I think, signed by Zoran Maric, which
17 also stated that nobody was allowed to interfere with
19 A. Yes, I received a certificate of that kind,
20 that nobody must molest us, all those who were left in
21 Busovaca, that we were not allowed -- nobody was to
22 expel us from our homes. But it was quiet for two or
23 three days after that, and afterwards, that paper meant
24 nothing because they carried on what they were doing
25 before that. So that paper was, in fact, worthless.
1 Q. Now I have several questions to ask you. You
2 worked in the municipality, did you not, so you know
3 things about that. Let me ask you about the power
4 structure, so to speak, in the Busovaca municipality.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you know that Mr. Florijan Glavocevic was
7 the president of the HVO up until August of 1992?
8 A. I know that Florijan Glavocevic was the
9 president of the municipality. I did not know that he
10 was president of, as you say, the representative of the
11 HVO. I didn't know that. I just knew that he was the
12 president of the municipality and that he worked as
13 such in the Busovaca municipality. But what function
14 he had or post he had in the HVO, I really don't know.
15 Q. Let me just check. Are we speaking of the
16 same period, the summer of 1992?
17 A. Yes, we are.
18 Q. Very well. Thank you. Later on, the
19 function performed by Glavocevic was taken over by
20 Mr. Maric; is that correct?
21 A. Before Florijan, I think Zoran was before
22 Florijan. I don't recall exactly. There was Niko
23 Grubesic, there was Florijan Glavocevic, and then Zoran
24 Maric, and they were all presidents at a similar time,
25 but I don't mow who was the first, second, or third. I
1 think that Niko Grubesic came after Florijan, and
2 before that, I think it was Zoran Maric, something of
3 that kind. That's how it must have been because Zoran
4 Maric was there in 1992 or -- well, yes, there was a --
5 I think it was Florijan and then Niko Grubesic replaced
6 him. But all three of them were presidents of the
7 municipality, yes.
8 Q. Mr. Niko Grubesic, in fact, came after the
9 war, that he was the mayor of Busovaca afterwards; is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But the period that I'm referring to,
13 Mr. Niko Grubesic was the secretary of the
14 municipality. I think that's what you called him.
15 A. Yes, that was in 1992. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. I assume that you know some of
17 the details related to the military organisation of the
18 HVO in Busovaca. Ivo Brnada was the commander of the
19 HVO in May 1992; do you know about that?
20 A. No, I don't.
21 Q. You don't know?
22 A. No, I do not.
23 Q. Do you know who the first commander of the
24 Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade in Busovaca was?
25 A. Well, I know there was Dusko, and then due to
1 illness, he had to leave to Split and he was replaced
2 during that time by Jure -- I don't remember his
3 surname, Jure Cavara, and then once again, Dusko came
4 back. That's what I know.
5 Q. So you don't know who was there before him in
6 December 1992?
7 A. No, I only know the time when Dusko was
9 Q. Can you recall, with greater precision, when
10 he was the commander in the framework of time?
11 A. I think it was in 1992, the summer of 1992.
12 I met him sometime in April. He was in Split but had
13 come back from Split because he had some lung
14 problems. He was ill, but he was the commander of the
16 Q. Let me ask you to tell me more exactly
17 whether you know when the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade
18 was formed in Busovaca in more precise terms.
19 A. Well, I don't know the exact date, no.
20 Q. Very well, thank you. I just have one more
21 question related to your personal status.
22 You explained to us a moment ago that you
23 were given permission to leave Busovaca?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. But you were, in fact, exchanged -- that is,
1 there was a personal exchange that took place. Your
2 husband found a family in Zenica, a Croat, and then you
3 were exchanged that way?
4 A. Yes. That was the only way in which I was
5 able to leave Busovaca, in actual fact.
6 Q. And you told us in your statement, in one of
7 your statements, that many families were exchanged
8 privately, so to speak, in that way?
9 A. Yes. My husband was in Zenica and the other
10 person's husband was in Busovaca, and so they would
11 exchange families.
12 Q. Mrs. Neslanovic, I have several questions to
13 ask you with regard to your acquaintance with Fatima
14 Ibriljic, who was pregnant at the time.
15 You tried to help her, and you went to the
16 civilian police to talk to Frano Kristo, whether that
17 woman would be allowed to leave, permitted to leave?
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. Kristo promised that he would see what he
20 could do?
21 A. He would only see what he could do about me.
22 He would talk to Anto Sliskovic, because he was in
23 charge of civilians, and that he had to have agreement
24 from Anto Sliskovic to allow me to leave.
25 And then I mentioned Fatima, and he said,
1 well, he would do that next time. So he made no
2 promises with regard to letting Fatima leave, that he
3 would promise to talk to Anto Sliskovic about me, what
4 he could do to have me leave.
5 So I went to Frano on several occasions,
6 asking him to give me permission to leave. He would
7 just say, "Well, find Anto Sliskovic. He's the main
8 man, he's the man in charge, and if he says you can go,
9 then you can go."
10 Q. Let's stick to the topic in hand. I'd now
11 like to ask you a few details about this particular
13 On that same day when you went to the police
14 station to talk to Frano Kristo, you met Mr. Kordic,
15 who was coming out of the church or somewhere like
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. We agree, I think, that Mr. Kordic was
19 friendly towards you and told the escort to let you go
20 by, and you said a few -- exchanged a few friendly
21 words there; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. At one point, this pregnant lady with tears
24 in her eyes came up to you and told you about her own
25 personal problem?
1 A. Well, she was crying, so I explained her
2 predicament. She wasn't able to say anything,
4 Q. You asked Mr. Kordic, in friendly terms, to
5 help the woman; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Mr. Kordic promised that he would help?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. He said he would contact the chief of the
10 civilian police, that is to say, Frano --
11 A. No, he told me to tell Frano that he had said
12 that Fatima should be given permission to leave
13 Busovaca, and I had just come from Frano Kristo.
14 Q. Yes, you've described that to us already,
15 thank you, not to waste time.
16 The next thing I want to ask you is this:
17 Mr. Kordic promised to help and sent one of his escorts
18 to accompany that pregnant lady to the civilian police
19 station to see what could be done; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You were not in the office when they talked
22 to Frano Kristo?
23 A. No, that's correct. I waited outside. In
24 fact, the escort wouldn't allow me to enter. I wanted
25 to go in, but he wouldn't let me.
1 Q. And you know that after that, you know that
2 in a day or two Fatima Ibriljic was sent to Zenica by
4 A. Yes. Dario's mother helped her to be allowed
5 to leave urgently. Dario's mother helped a great deal,
6 not to use the transport but to leave more urgently.
7 Q. So Dr. Kordic ensured medical assistance for
8 this woman; is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Let us now proceed.
11 Mrs. Neslanovic, I have a few more
12 questions. I hope we'll have time to get through them
14 You mentioned today -- you mentioned the
15 press conferences today, and we agreed that they were
16 held on a Tuesday in the municipality building; is that
18 A. Yes. In most cases, they took place on a
19 Tuesday, which does not mean that there were no other
20 ad hoc press conferences.
21 Q. So these were regular, weekly, public press
22 conferences, were they not?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Journalists would come, that kind of thing?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And they were televised, were they not, you
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So at these press conferences, problems were
5 publicly aired about the war and matters of that kind?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I noted that you said today that this was,
8 for the most part, propaganda because it appeared that
9 it was only the BH army that was attacking the HVO?
10 A. Yes. I said the Muslim forces were attacking
11 the HVO, that that was what was said, that it was
12 always the HVO that was attacked by the BH army and
13 that they were only defending themselves.
14 Q. You were never in the army or your husband
15 wasn't in the army, so I didn't want to ask you any
16 questions from the military field. But I have one
17 question to ask you. Do you agree that there was heavy
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Even around the town of Busovaca?
21 A. Yes, yes, there was fighting, and you could
22 hear detonations, explosions and firing, and I know
23 that I had to go to a shelter and stay in shelters.
24 And we were being warned constantly over the radio that
25 we should go to seek protection in shelters. Sometimes
1 we would go to shelters without any detonations or
2 explosion or shooting being heard. But it was assumed
3 that an attack could come about, so we were told to go
4 to the shelters.
5 Q. Do you agree with me when I say that the town
6 of Busovaca was shelled?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That these shells fell on the town itself?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. When you spoke a moment ago about
11 Mr. Dusko Grubesic, you gave us an interesting piece of
12 information. At least you gave us one of your thoughts
13 on that particular subject. You said that Dusko
14 Grubesic reported to Mr. Kordic when there was a review
15 of some kind. Would you think about that and tell us
16 when that took place? But take your time and think
17 about it.
18 A. It was in 1992. It was the summer of 1992
19 when Dusko, on the stadium, positioned his army, the
20 Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade, and all the HDZ
21 officials were there. And Dusko -- the army was
22 standing to attention, and then he reported to Dario,
23 and then together they reviewed the army and greeted
24 the members of the army, as is customary at reviews --
25 military reviews and ceremonies of this kind. It is
1 customary for the leaders to do that kind of thing.
2 Q. Thank you. Perhaps I'll refresh your memory
3 when I ask you whether that could have been on the 23rd
4 of August, 1992.
5 A. I don't know exactly. I know it was
6 summertime. It was a nice day.
7 Q. Tell me, were you yourself at the stadium?
8 A. No, I was not. I watched it on television.
9 It was quite close to where I was, so I would see
10 soldiers in uniform going by, and of course it was on
11 the radio as well.
12 Q. Now I'm going to ask you a detail about this
13 reporting. Did you see the reporting on television?
14 A. Yes. It was on Busovaca Television, and it
15 was televised only by the Busovaca TV network.
16 Q. Mrs. Neslanovic, let me tell you -- and, Your
17 Honours, I have to confront the witness with one
18 particular fact and I don't want you to misunderstand
19 me -- but Mr. Dusko Grubesic did not report to
20 Mr. Kordic because Anto Juric -- do you know who Anto
21 Juric was?
22 A. No.
23 Q. He was there. You don't know him at all?
24 A. No.
25 Q. We was the commander of a battalion, and you
1 don't know about them. Well, they were present at this
3 A. No, Dario was there. I saw him very well.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you know who spoke -- who made
5 a speech at this particular ceremony that you're
6 talking about?
7 A. Dario.
8 Q. Who else?
9 A. I know that Dusko took the microphone and
10 addressed the army members, and then Dario said a few
11 words congratulating the soldiers and all those present
12 and that kind of thing.
13 Q. Anybody else?
14 A. Dusko and Dario and the other leaders.
15 Q. But I have a quick question. Did Mr. Blaskic
16 take the floor? Did he make a speech?
17 A. I don't remember. He was present on the
18 occasion, he was present amongst the dignitaries. He
19 was standing behind, in the row behind.
20 Q. Zoran Maric was there too. Did he speak?
21 A. I don't know that he spoke.
22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
23 I think you have understood our position regarding this
24 matter, so I don't need to repeat it to the witness.
25 Q. Were there several line-ups of troops at the
1 stadium in Busovaca in 1992?
2 A. I don't know whether they were in public.
3 Q. No. I'm talking about public ceremonies.
4 A. Yes, there were. I did see many soldiers
5 around, but what the occasion was, I don't know.
6 Q. Do you know that there was a parade in
7 December 1992?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 Q. Then we can move on. A couple of questions
10 under a common heading, miscellaneous.
11 You mentioned the sister of Kordic. She was
12 an announcer on the radio, wasn't she?
13 A. She was the chief in the radio, she was the
14 editor in chief.
15 Q. You know that from personal knowledge?
16 A. Yes, because it was announced. Davorka
17 Kordic as the editor in chief, that was on the
18 announcement of programmes, a programme technically
19 prepared by Josip Rajic and so on. All of this was on
21 Q. But individual programmes, she was the editor
22 of individual programmes?
23 A. No, no, all of them from the moment the radio
24 was founded. Davorka was in charge of all of that.
25 Q. Thank you. Yesterday when you started your
1 testimony in answer to a question from the Prosecution,
2 you said that in July there was a machine gun
3 positioned in town, but you said in July?
4 A. June or July.
5 Q. Yes, yes, we know that. I wanted to ask you
6 something else. This wasn't in July but in May 1992.
7 Does that refresh your memory?
8 A. No. I know that it was very hot, it was the
9 summer, so I don't think that it could have been so hot
10 in May. It was really very hot.
11 Q. And then that machine gun, after a short
12 time, was removed?
13 A. It was there for up to perhaps a month, and
14 there were machine gun nests in ethnically-pure areas
15 inhabited by Muslims near Tihomir Jovic's house in
17 Q. We agree that they were removed a short while
19 A. Yes. No, the bunkers remained, and then the
20 anti-aircraft guns would pass by there on trucks.
21 Q. Yes, you've told us that already. When you
22 started talking about when uniforms began to be worn in
23 Busovaca, I took note that you said sometime in April
24 1992 onwards, it became fashionable to dress in
25 uniform. Many people were wearing uniforms?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But this was still while Bosnia-Herzegovina
3 was a constituent of the Republic of Yugoslavia?
4 A. No, immediately after it proclaimed its
5 independence. I apologise.
6 Q. But what I wanted to say was while the JNA
7 was still present?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Today, also one of these other
10 questions, that leaders of the HVO in Busovaca used
11 luxury passenger cars and various other types of
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You also mentioned a helicopter?
15 A. Yes. A helicopter would come to the
16 stadium. It would land at the stadium. Why it came, I
17 don't know. I heard from citizens that they were
18 bringing in medicines and taking away the wounded,
19 their purpose being, therefore, a humanitarian one.
20 This happened once in 1993. I remember seeing the
21 helicopter landing at the stadium, escorted by two NATO
22 fighter planes, and then the helicopter landed quickly.
23 Q. That is precisely what I wanted to ask you.
24 Can you tell us exactly when that was or at least
25 roughly what time of year it was, the first time that
1 you saw them?
2 A. In 1993. It could have been May or June,
3 somewhere around there.
4 Q. You said it was white. Did it have any
6 A. I didn't notice any markings. I saw that it
7 was white, but I didn't notice any marks on it.
8 Q. And when --
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
10 Mr. Naumovski, what do you wish to present through this
11 question regarding the helicopter? Put the question
12 directly. There's no point asking what colour it was,
13 was it white, and so on. Put your question directly in
14 connection with the indictment, the charges in the
16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
17 the witness has just answered my question by saying
18 that it was a humanitarian flight that she was aware of
19 in 1993. My next question, if I may, was going to be
20 when she saw it a second time.
21 Q. And that was in 1994?
22 A. No, in 1993. In 1994, I was no longer in
24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I had to ask
25 this question because of the context within which the
1 witness gave this answer to the Prosecutor, but I've
2 finished with that subject now.
3 Q. I didn't wish to dwell in detail on the
4 confidential part of the hearing. I won't mention any
5 names, so we don't have to go into private session. So
6 be careful. Don't mention any names yourself either.
7 I will be very brief.
8 Regarding the first case that we discussed,
9 you said they were not soldiers from Busovaca. You
10 know the case I am referring to, the first case?
11 A. No, I don't understand you.
12 Q. You told the Prosecutor, or rather all of us,
13 about the event that occurred, the first event that you
15 A. You mean with my relative?
16 Q. Yes, but don't repeat the thing so that we
17 don't have to go into private session. Do we agree
18 that the man who did it was not from Busovaca?
19 A. One of them was not. I don't know about the
20 other. At least that is what Branko Sliskovic told
22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Perhaps it's
23 better that we go into private session just in case I
24 ask a question that might reveal the witness. Very
25 briefly, please.
1 [Private session]
13 page 11296 redacted – in private session
13 page 11297 redacted – in private session
13 [Open session]
14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
15 Q. A few questions about the HDZ leaders in
16 Busovaca. Do you know who the HDZ leaders in Busovaca
18 A. Yes. Dario, Niko Grubesic, Glavocevic, Bruno
19 Susnjar, he was there too. He was also near the top
20 somewhere. Then there was Kostroman and Blaskic and
22 Q. I'm talking about Busovaca only.
23 A. These others were guests. There was Niko,
24 Florijan, Dario, Bruno Susnjar, and there were some
25 others who I knew by sight.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Anto Bilic, Anto Stipac.
3 Q. Yes. So you know the whole circle of
5 A. Yes, I know Anto Bilic and Anto Stipac. They
6 are my neighbours.
7 Q. A couple more questions linked to this group
8 under miscellaneous. You said yesterday or today, I'm
9 not quite sure, that Frano Sliskovic moved into the
10 Serb's apartment, Zdravko Milanovic, who had left
11 Busovaca, but he bought that apartment.
12 A. No, he purchased his furniture. He couldn't
13 buy the apartment because he had received it from his
14 company. He left that flat and he sold his things.
15 Q. At minimum prices?
16 A. Yes, I was told that by a relative of
17 Zdravko's wife, that they sold that furniture for petty
19 Q. Never mind. Let's not tire the Court with
20 these details. You said that Frano Sliskovic later
21 married Mr. Kordic's sister-in-law. Do you know that
22 they married in December 1994?
23 A. Yes, but they were living out of wedlock.
24 Maybe that is when they got married, but they lived
25 together much before then.
1 Q. So you mentioned another person, a Serb or a
2 Montenegrin, Mico Bulatovic. Can we agree that he and
3 Zdravko Milanovic voluntarily, of their own free will,
4 left Busovaca.
5 A. I know that Mico Bulatovic went on a visit to
6 Montenegro to visit his friend, so that his furniture,
7 everything, stayed behind. The man didn't take
8 anything with him, except his own clothes. Then
9 Busovaca was shelled and the man didn't return to
11 Q. Very well. That was just in passing, a
12 question en passant. You mentioned this person called
13 Daro several times. We won't go back to the event that
14 we referred to in private session, but later you said
15 that you were present when he talked to you and this
16 young woman.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You know this Daro. In view of what he did
19 later on, you were willing to talk to him. But he did
20 a very nasty thing, according to what you heard, but
21 you still had contact with him.
22 A. I had no choice. I couldn't publicly avoid
24 Q. Tell me, as a person, was he a show-off? Did
25 he like to boast, to be pretentious, to claim to be
1 somebody important?
2 A. Yes. Yes, he did, a little.
3 Q. Very well. Thank you.
4 A. Maybe about his appearance or something like
6 Q. Never mind. That's not so important. Again,
7 in passing.
8 Perhaps we can now go on to the last subject
9 matter, and I believe we will manage to finish by
10 1.00. These are a couple of questions linked to
11 Mr. Kordic. We agree that he was appointed Secretary
12 for National Defence after the first elections in the
13 joint government formed by the Muslims, Croats, and
14 Serbs in Busovaca.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. While working there, his secretary in the
17 office was a Muslim lady, Hafida Hodzic.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. She worked with him throughout the time he
20 held that position.
21 A. I think so. She did work there. I don't
22 know exactly when she left.
23 Q. She was his secretary. She would copy out
24 the minutes of meetings.
25 A. I don't know whether she took down the
1 minutes. I don't know what exactly she did, but I do
2 know that she acted as a kind of secretary. Whether
3 she copied down the minutes of meetings, that I don't
5 Q. Never mind. Never mind. It's not
7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
8 Mr. Naumovski, if you want to say that there were
9 Muslims in that municipality, that has been said
10 several times. There's no point in repeating that
12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, I
13 understand, Your Honour, but she was the personal
14 secretary of Mr. Kordic, and the Prosecution is
15 indirectly making certain implications in that
16 direction. That's all I wanted to say.
17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.
18 Go on. But, please, you need not necessarily take as
19 much time as the Prosecution every time. It's more
20 than an hour and twenty minutes. There's no need to
21 dwell on matters that are already common knowledge.
22 Indeed, you had to refer to things to corroborate
23 certain points, but you can do it quickly, swiftly.
24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well,
25 Your Honour. I'll hurry up.
1 Q. Do you know that the Secretary for National
2 Defence in Busovaca municipality and throughout all
3 municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina was officially
4 supplied with a pistol?
5 A. No, I don't know that.
6 Q. You said that Mr. Kordic, while the JNA was
7 still there, that Mr. Kordic would come in camouflage
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So you saw him frequently wearing such a
11 uniform later on.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. It was always a camouflage uniform.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You never saw him in a black uniform.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you know who took Mr. Kordic's place as
18 president of the HDZ in Busovaca municipality in April
20 A. I don't know because I didn't attend HDZ
21 meetings, and what was happening there, I don't know.
22 Q. But if I give you the name, perhaps that
23 would refresh your memory. It was Mr. Florijan
24 Glavocevic who became president of the HVO Busovaca in
25 April 1992.
1 A. That was the rumour in the municipality, but
2 he didn't stay in that position for long. He was very
3 shortly replaced.
4 Q. Who then came for president of the HDZ after
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Apart from the event that you described in
8 connection with your acquaintance, the pregnant lady
9 that you addressed Mr. Kordic to help, can we agree
10 that you addressed them for their assistance in their
11 house, talking to his wife?
12 A. I never went there, except for once, but I
13 couldn't enter because there were soldiers in front of
14 the house. They wouldn't let me go inside. They were
15 guarding his house.
16 Q. Let me be specific. Did you, on one
17 occasion, address Mr. Kordic, or rather his wife to
18 help you to get food for your family?
19 A. No, I did not. No, I didn't say that.
20 Q. Not to his wife or to Mr. Kordic?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Thank you. You mentioned today the killing
23 of Ibro Hodzic.
24 A. And Mirsad Delija.
25 Q. No, we're only interested in Ibro Hodzic. He
1 was killed around the 10th of February, the beginning
2 of February of 1993.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. A day or two after that killing, a press
5 conference was held which was telecast on television.
6 Did you watch it?
7 A. I don't remember.
8 Q. Let me try and refresh your memory. At that
9 press conference, Mr. Dario Kordic publicly denounced
10 the killing of Ibro Hodzic, expressed condolences to
11 his wife, and explicitly stated that this crime could
12 only have been done by criminals and that such an act
13 was not good for the Croatian people.
14 A. I didn't have occasion to watch that. I
15 don't remember that, because the war was on already,
16 and I spent a lot of time in shelter and I was very
17 worried about life.
18 JUDGE MAY: We've explored this as much as
20 Now, Mr. Naumovski, is there anything else
21 you want to ask?
22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Just a couple
23 of questions more, Your Honour.
24 Q. You said that Mr. Kordic would be absent for
25 several days.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And when you spoke to him in the street, he
3 told you that he was not able to come to Busovaca
4 because of the war. But you don't know where he went,
5 you have no knowledge about that.
6 A. No, except what he told me himself.
7 Q. Mr. Kordic would usually use what we would
8 call a luxury, a passenger car, a Mercedes or an Opel,
9 to move around in?
10 A. Yes, I would see him in a passenger car and
11 in a Land Rover. I don't know what colour they were,
12 but usually passenger cars, yes.
13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
14 I understood your observation, but it could be relevant
15 because of the statements of some other witnesses who
16 spoke about this. So it was my duty to check this out
17 through this witness. But I've finished. Just one
18 more question.
19 Q. Mrs. Neslanovic, and that will end my
20 examination, during your statement with the
21 investigators, you stated that Mr. Kordic could not
22 have known about everything that was happening, that
23 obviously some things were happening outside of his
24 knowledge. That is what you told the investigators.
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well.
2 Thank you, Mrs. Neslanovic, and thank you, Your
3 Honours, for your patience. That ends my
4 cross-examination of this witness.
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Mikulicic.
6 Cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:
7 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Neslanovic. My name is
8 Goran Mikulicic, I'm an attorney from Zagreb, and in
9 this case, together with colleague Kovacic, I represent
10 Mario Cerkez. I will be very brief.
11 You told us, Mrs. Neslanovic, that you worked
12 in Busovaca municipality and you had occasion to see
13 many people, many leading figures from the civilian and
14 military authorities who came to the municipality; is
15 that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Mario Cerkez in Busovaca
19 A. I did.
20 Q. Tell me, Ms. Neslanovic, when you saw him and
21 under which circumstances.
22 A. He would come as a guest to see Dario or any
23 one of the others, but he would come as a guest. He
24 would stay there for an hour or two and then leave.
25 Q. Do you remember when this was?
1 A. That was in 1992, as far as I can remember,
2 as far as I was able to see.
3 Q. Was there some kind of a celebration that
4 prompted his coming as a guest?
5 A. Whether there was a celebration, I don't
6 remember, but he did come. I would see him there.
7 Whether it was for a ceremony of some sort or on a
8 private visit, I don't know.
9 Q. Tell me, Mrs. Neslanovic, do you know when he
10 came whether he was wearing civilian clothes or a
11 military uniform?
12 A. Sometimes he would come in civilian clothes
13 and sometimes in camouflage uniform. As the war was
14 approaching, everyone was wearing camouflage uniforms.
15 There were very few civilians, hardly anyone, just here
16 and there.
17 Q. Very well. So that was the only time you saw
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you, Ms. Neslanovic. I have no further
22 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] The Cerkez
23 Defence has no further questions, Your Honours.
24 MS. SOMERS: If the Chamber will give me five
25 rapid-fire questions with quick answers. Thank you.
1 Re-examined by Ms. Somers:
2 Q. Ms. Neslanovic, when did your husband leave
3 Busovaca for Zenica?
4 A. He left in May.
5 Q. Of what year?
6 A. 1993.
7 Q. Did Anto Sliskovic ever wear a uniform that
8 you saw?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What type? Was it camouflage?
11 A. Sometimes camouflage, sometimes black.
12 Q. Did Anto Sliskovic have an office near Dario
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You mentioned during cross that the Zrinjski
16 Brigade had been headquartered in the primary school.
17 Do you know where the Jokers were headquartered?
18 A. Yes. They were headquartered in the
19 elementary school in Busovaca. I went there by chance
20 to look for a certificate to prove that my child had
21 finished four years of elementary school. I was
22 looking for someone to give me this certificate;
23 however, I found soldiers there. There were beds in
24 the classrooms. The soldiers were sleeping there. The
25 Jokers, they had the word "Jokers" on their shoulders,
1 that is where they played table tennis and that is
2 where they spent their time.
3 Q. Either through your meetings with Daro, or
4 any other source, did you ever learn that Daro was
5 punished for the rape?
6 A. No, never. I never heard that he was ever
8 Q. One last question. Did you observe Anto
9 Sliskovic in the company of Dario Kordic at official
10 meetings, either in the municipality building or
11 anywhere where Dario Kordic had authority?
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MS. SOMERS: No further questions.
15 JUDGE MAY: Mrs. Neslanovic, that concludes
16 your evidence. Thank you for coming to the
17 International Tribunal to give it. You are now
19 We will adjourn until half past two.
20 We're not going to adjourn. There's
21 something they want to deal with. If you would like to
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 (Private Session)
13 page 11311 redacted – private session
13 page 11312 redacted – private session
21 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.38 p.m.
2 [Closed session]
13 pages 11314 to 11359 redacted – in closed session
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
12 4.13 p.m., to be reconvened on
13 Wednesday, the 8th day of December,
14 1999, at 9.30 a.m.