1 Thursday, 5 February 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Momcilo Krajisnik.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. Gasi, may I remind you that you're still bound by the solemn
11 declaration you've made yesterday.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, you may continue the examination-in-chief
14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. There's one matter that I
15 wanted to bring to your attention, and I think it's fine to raise it in
16 the presence of the witness. Regarding the Rule 70 materials for which we
17 had not yet received permission yesterday, half an hour ago I received a
18 call from the provider, advising me that written authorisation had been
19 granted and he told me it was all right for me to disclose those
20 materials. I have handed those to Defence counsel just before we started
22 JUDGE ORIE: Since this is a rather late disclosure, Mr. Stewart,
23 I take it that I'll hear from the Defence if the time for preparing was
24 too short.
25 MR. STEWART: Yes, certainly. I was just going to have a glance
1 at it of course while we're in Court and let Your Honour know if there's
2 any time we need --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll hear from you.
4 MR. STEWART: Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 WITNESS: ISAK GASI [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Examined by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]
10 Q. Mr. Gasi, I wanted to ask you about an incident at Luka camp where
11 you were taken out to do some cleaning in Brcko town. Do you recall that
13 A. It was not just any building. It was the SUP building in Brcko,
14 the police station building.
15 Q. And would you tell the Judges what happened on that occasion.
16 A. While I was in Luka, they picked out some 15 of us to work. They
17 put us in a vehicle and they took us to the police station. The three of
18 us were given the last floor to clean -- actually, an office, in which the
19 windows were shattered. We were cleaning, and at one moment we heard
20 noise in front of the building. I looked through the window, and on the
21 other side where the SUP had its garages and restaurant in an open area,
22 one of the police officers shot a civilian in the chest. Another civilian
23 managed to escape and started running towards the exit. He may have made
24 some ten metres, and then another policeman shot at him. He shot him in
25 his legs. The man fell down and the guy who shot him in the first place
1 approached him and shot him in the head.
2 Some five or ten minutes later, somebody started shouting and
3 running up the stairs, shouting: "Where are the other Turks? I'm going
4 to kill them all."
5 In the meantime, a local Serb appeared. He worked at the SUP at
6 the time. He pushed us into another office and locked us in. And after
7 that, when the situation calmed down, this same man came, unlocked the
8 office, took us out, and then the people who brought us to the SUP
9 building took us back to the Luka.
10 Q. Let me ask you: Who were the people who had taken you to the
11 police station for this cleaning detail and then took you back to Luka
13 A. Those were people who often came there. Amongst them was
14 Miso Cajevic and a couple other local Serbs from Brcko.
15 Q. And were they wearing uniforms or were they with any particular
16 military or police unit?
17 A. Cajevic wore a camouflage uniform, olive-drab uniform. I don't
18 know what army he belonged to. I suppose he belonged to the JNA. I don't
19 know what the name of the army was. Others were also wearing similar
20 clothes. There were some wearing civilian clothes, some wore police
21 uniforms. There were all sorts of uniforms, and they were looking for
22 volunteers to do the cleaning.
23 Q. And do you recall how many volunteers you were in total that were
24 taken to the SUP that day?
25 A. I believe that there was between 15 and 20 of us.
1 Q. And were all of the others detainees at Luka with you?
2 A. Yes. Those who left the Luka with me, they were. But when we
3 arrived at the SUP building, there were other people there, civilians. I
4 don't know why they were there, but in any event, there were some other
5 people. I don't know where they had been brought from.
6 Q. And did the same number return to Luka at the end of the day?
7 A. Some of the people from the group I knew. When I returned, there
8 were only three of us in the vehicle with the policeman who took us back.
9 Q. And did you know the policeman that you saw doing any of the
11 A. I didn't know him. I was watching, and the only thing I saw was
12 that he wore police uniform. And there was another man with him also
13 wearing a police uniform, a blue police uniform.
14 Q. And was that short sleeve or long sleeve, and camouflage or plain
16 A. It was a plain blue uniform. Both of them had plain blue
17 uniforms. One of them had a short-sleeved blouse.
18 Q. And do you feel comfortable telling us the name of the policeman
19 who hid you or locked you in the room?
20 A. Yes. His name is Kaurinovic. Boro is his first name.
21 Q. Thank you. Now I want to ask you about the time that you were in
22 Brcko between the blowing up of the bridge on 30 April and your release
23 from Luka on 7 June. Can you tell the Court, as best you remember, all
24 the different military, paramilitary, and police groups that you saw in
25 Brcko or in Luka camp.
1 A. From the 12th of May onwards, when I was moving around, I had
2 several opportunities to leave the Elektrodistribucija and go to the town
3 in order to do repairs. In the town itself, there were several
4 checkpoints, mixed checkpoints, manned by people in camouflage uniforms,
5 for whom I suppose that they belonged to the JNA. And sometimes there
6 would also be one or two police officers wearing regular police uniforms.
7 It all depended on the checkpoint. If you were to go towards Grcica,
8 where my father resides, by the Teslak [phoen] factory, that was the
9 biggest checkpoint that I could notice at the time. This checkpoint was
10 manned by the Red Berets, by people in camouflage uniforms, not only
11 olive-drab camouflage uniforms, but also blue camouflage uniforms. And
12 some of the local Serbs from Brcko, my neighbours, were stopping vehicles
13 and asked for the people's IDs.
14 In the Luka itself, in the hangar, I saw people from the Serbian
15 MUP. On one occasion they came, they stopped a blue Golf in front of the
16 vehicle, and on the door of that vehicle you could see the coat of arms of
17 the Republic of Serbia and the inscription "the Ministry of the Interior
18 of the Republic of Serbia." The three men in the vehicle, they escorted
19 Kosta into the hangar. They wanted to see some Muslim sniper shooters.
20 Those were two people that I knew from Brcko. They were very close to me
21 in the hangar. And one of them wore a camouflage uniform and insignia of
22 a JNA major, and the other two who accompanied them, they had coat of arms
23 of Serbia on their sleeves and one of them had the coat of arms of the
24 former Yugoslavia, which means that one of them was from the federal SUP
25 and one from the republican SUP. They told me: "Kosta, where are those
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Muslim sniper shooters?" They approached Muhamed, also known as Jovo, who
2 is still alive to this day, luckily enough. And they asked him: "Why are
3 you here?" The major asked him that. And the poor man, he
4 didn't -- could not even use the proper word. He said that he was a
5 sniper shooter. The major then swore and said: "If all the Muslim sniper
6 shooters are like this one here, I would not have lost any men. Why don't
7 you, Kosta, look after this man, provide him with some medical help?"
8 On that same day or the day after a local doctor appeared and he
9 helped these two men. And later on, they allowed us to be brought fresh
10 water into the hangar, so that people could have a drink of fresh water.
11 Yesterday, I described a situation when five or six men stormed
12 into the hangar. They forced us to sing Serbian songs. They all wore
13 camouflage uniforms. It was dark, but I could still see them. They spoke
14 in a Serbian accent. They forced us to sing Serbian songs. I did not see
15 any of their insignia. Ivan, who beat me up on the first day, he bore the
16 insignia of an Arkan's Tiger. The guy who took me out from the Luka, he
17 wore a camouflage uniform, a red beret, a military police belt. On one of
18 his shoulders -- on one occasion, Vojvoda Mirko Blagojevic came with his
19 escorts. We all knew him. We all greeted him in the Serbian way. They
20 wore camouflage uniforms. They introduced themselves as Serbian Chetniks,
22 Q. Let me stop you there for a minute. Do you know where
23 Mirko Blagojevic was from?
24 A. Yes. He was from Bijeljina.
25 Q. And do you know who the leader of the Serb Radical Party was at
1 that time?
2 A. What do you mean? In Bijeljina or --? At the federal level?
3 Q. Both.
4 A. Mirko Blagojevic was in Bijeljina, and at the federal level, in
5 Belgrade, it was Vojvoda Seselj.
6 Q. And you mentioned a man named Ivan who had the insignia of Arkan's
7 unit. Can you tell us what that insignia looked like?
8 A. On his sleeve, either on his left or the right sleeve, I could see
9 Arkan's Tiger, the head of an Arkan's Tiger. On the left-hand side of his
10 chest, a small flag of the Republika Srpska. When he arrived in the
11 hangar, he did not have a cap on his head. In any case, he wore a
12 camouflage uniform, which is very interesting. His boots were different
13 than the ones that I saw on JNA soldiers up to then. His boots were
14 different. They differed. He also had a pistol and a camouflage uniform.
15 Q. And did you also meet a man named Mauzer in Brcko during the time
16 you were there?
17 A. Yes. Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer. I had an opportunity while I was in
18 Elektro-Brcko to see him when he arrived with his assistants. They pulled
19 their car and they asked our director to line us up. We were lined up.
20 Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer, came out, started asking what our names were. He
21 separated the Serbs who worked with us to one side, and the Muslims and
22 one Croat to another side. There were more Muslims than Serbs in
23 Elektrodistribucija at that time. He started walking from one man to
24 another. He asked what our names were. He started threatening us,
25 blaming us for things. He said that one of his fighters died on an
1 operating table because we Muslims, electricians, cut the power off so
2 that he could not be operated on.
3 I really didn't know what he was talking about. I was clueless.
4 After some time, after having waved his pistol for a while -- they didn't
5 hit us, but he swore at us and he also lectured our director. But then
6 the situation calmed down. And after that, we almost became friends with
7 the same people who shouted at us and who cursed us.
8 Q. And were they in civilian clothes or military uniforms?
9 A. The three of them wore uniforms. Interestingly enough, the two
10 escorts wore complete uniforms, whereas he himself wore Adidas trainers on
11 his feet. He did not have a helmet. He did not have a hat on his head.
12 But he did have a uniform, and he also had a radio set. He had a radio
13 set on his body.
14 Q. Were the men with him armed as well?
15 A. One of them had an automatic rifle, and the other one, I don't
16 know. I only saw this rifle in American movies before the war. I really
17 don't know where that rifle came from. It was a one-barreled rifle, and
18 the other one had an automatic rifle. And Mauzer, he pulled out his
19 pistol and waved his pistol at us.
20 Q. And do you know if he was a local from Brcko or did he come from
21 somewhere else?
22 A. Mauzer is not from Brcko. He's from Bijeljina as well. The other
23 two also were not from Brcko. One of them introduced himself as
24 Captain Dusko Tuzlandzic if my memory serves me well. He had long hair.
25 That's interesting for a captain to have long hair. You don't see that
2 Q. And do you know if Mauzer's unit had a name or a nickname?
3 A. He said that he is the commander of the Serbian Volunteer Guard.
4 That's how he introduced himself before he started lecturing us.
5 Q. Thank you. Now I want to ask you about the day that you were
6 released from Luka camp. I think you told us yesterday that was 7 June.
7 Can you tell us how that happened?
8 A. It was on the 7th of June, maybe around 11.00, between 11.00 and
9 12.00. A car stopped in front of the hangar, a Pajero jeep. Five or ten
10 minutes later, a man in a camouflage uniform entered the hangar, followed
11 by Kosta. He stood in the middle of the hangar and called out my name,
12 and he said: "Get up, Isak. On your feet. Come closer."
13 I came closer to him. He gave me his hand. We shook hands, and
14 he said: "I'm glad to see you. I have greetings to convey to you." I
15 say: "Who from?" He said: "Your wife." And I say: "Did you see her
16 personally?" And he said: "No. Some friends were with her and told me
17 to convey her greetings to you personally in Luka." So I said: "Thank
18 you very much."
19 And then Kosta said something along the lines: "Don't be afraid.
20 Be relaxed. We're friends. We're colleagues. Don't be afraid."
21 In the hangar, this lasted for some five or ten minutes. All the
22 people around us were listening to this exchange, and then Kosta says:
23 "Captain, we could have gone to my office. Maybe both you and Isak could
24 have a cup of coffee there. Maybe you could get acquainted better." And
25 then this other guy said: "Yes. That's a good idea. Why don't we go to
1 your office and have a cup of coffee."
2 I went out of the hangar. We were sitting in Kosta's office.
3 Kosta put the kettle on for a cup of coffee. Some guards were entering
4 the office and looking at this soldier, this special. We were talking
5 about sports. He asked me if I knew some people in Belgrade. I said I
6 knew some athletes, like myself. The kettle took a long time to boil.
7 And then I said: "Captain, I'm really not keen on coffee. Why don't you
8 let me go back to the hangar?" And he says: "You're a good man. Maybe
9 there will be another opportunity for us to have a cup of coffee together,
10 and now you may go."
11 As I was leaving the office, he called me again and said: "Man,
12 what can I do for you?" He says: "You're a good man." I say: "Nothing.
13 You just let me go, if you're a friend, if you're a colleague." And he
14 says: "I'll do my utmost to help you."
15 And then I said: "Am I free?" He says: "Yes, you are. Go back
16 to the hangar." I went back to the hangar, and then through the door of
17 the hangar, I saw the vehicle leaving on that same day after 2.00 or 3.00,
18 again the same car re-appeared. Then this captain and another Red Beret
19 soldier, known as Dugi, or Pedja, and Rade, my friend, came. Kosta was
20 with them, of course. Kosta was carrying my ID and a piece of paper, and
21 he said: "Isak, the time has come for you to start rowing again for
22 Yugoslavia. You are going home. You're free to go."
23 I said goodbye to all the other people in the hangar, and that's
24 how it was. This man put me in that car.
25 Q. Let me ask you: Did he -- had he introduced himself to you yet?
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13 English transcripts.
1 What was his name?
2 A. Yes. He introduced himself as Rade Bozic, the moment he came to
3 that hangar.
4 Q. And you said he had a camouflage uniform. Did he have -- was he
5 wearing any insignia or any rank on his uniform?
6 A. Yes. Yes. He wore the insignia. When the JNA people wear
7 camouflage uniforms, the insignia usually is here in the front, and his
8 were those of a captain. And also, he had a white belt. This white belt
9 which he wore with the buckle is the type of belt that the military police
10 wore in the JNA.
11 Q. Was he wearing or carrying any type of helmet or hat?
12 A. He didn't wear a cap on his head, but he had it on one of his
13 shoulders. It was folded and placed on his shoulder. It was a red beret.
14 Q. And the men with him, were they dressed the same way or
16 A. The second time when he appeared in the hangar, this Pedja Dugi
17 was with him, and he wore the same uniform, he had the same pistol, and he
18 even had a radio with him, on him, and he also had a red beret on his
19 head. Kosta was wearing the clothing that he usually wore. He had the
20 blue shirt, the blue pants, of the police uniform, and also a police cap
21 on his head.
22 Q. And I believe that you have told us before that you were first
23 taken home to get some things, and where did you go immediately after
25 A. When I took my things, he told me: Now you're going on a longer
1 trip. He didn't tell me where I was going. Then we went past the
2 Elektrodistribucija. We came out there for a couple of minutes. And
3 those people there saw me together with them. Then we started driving
4 towards Bijeljina. Before we went to Brcko, there is a gas station, and
5 we turned right. We went to the customs area. So in front of the customs
6 area we stopped. There is a little guardhouse and a fence, and there were
7 people sitting in front of it. There's a large parking place in front of
8 the customs building. There were many vehicles there from the JNA, the
9 Serbian MUP. On the wall they had written out which unit and to which
10 part of the military the parking was allocated to. There was also even
11 space for the special units of the Serbian ministry, also for Radicals and
12 Chetniks from Serbia there was space. There were vehicles there. Amongst
13 them was a blue-painted pinzgauer, a camouflage-painted one. There was a
14 whole line of vehicles there. I also saw a couple of people dressed in
15 the same way as Rade was. They wore these camouflage uniforms, the
16 multicoloured uniforms. Some of them had caps on their heads, some were
17 not wearing them but had them folded on their shoulders.
18 Later when we set off for Bijeljina, Rade said that at that place
19 in the customs area, people from Serbia, Specials, were sleeping there,
20 members of the Serbian MUP, of the military, also the Radicals, Seselj's
21 soldiers, Arkan's men. He said mostly all the people from Serbia proper
22 were sleeping there, that there were no locals there.
23 Q. What did Rade Bozic do while you were at that location?
24 A. He left the car. He went outside, out of the car and left me
25 inside the car. There is a guardhouse at the front, like a reception
1 area, and he went inside that little building. And I saw him talking to
2 the person on duty there, who passed him a telephone receiver. And then
3 Rade came back and said: "Well, it seems that I have to stay here." There
4 was some reason, but he didn't say what it was. And while he was talking
5 to me, the man from the office start to wave back at me and then he ran
6 off back there and then again he spoke to somebody on the telephone. I
7 saw that through the window. And then he came back and he made this sign
8 and said: "Yes. Everything will be okay." And that's when he told me:
9 "We're going to Belgrade. That's where your wife is. So I'm taking you
10 there now."
11 Then we started to drive towards Bijeljina, and later we went to
13 Q. Where did you eventually go to that day?
14 A. I ended up in Zvornik. And on the way from Ugljevik to Zvornik,
15 he told me: "Do you know, my man, who is releasing you from Luka?" I
16 said I don't know. I really didn't know; I had no idea at the time. He
17 said: "Captain Dragan. Do you know who that is?" And I said: "Yes, I
18 do," because I read something about that in the papers. I don't know when
19 the war was going on in Croatia. I read about his Red Berets. And he
20 said: "Yes. He, personally, the big boss himself, was the one who issued
21 the order for you to be released." And he said: "He will personally wait
22 for you in Zvornik. He wants to meet you. He has heard many good things
23 about you," he said. I said: "All right. Very well."
24 So we were just -- continued to drive, and during the drive there
25 was talk. And on one occasion, Rade Bozic - and I didn't ask him
1 anything - he told me himself: "I'm going to tell you a secret now that
2 many Serbs don't know of. I was the one who commanded the operation to
3 blow up the bridges over the Sava River." And that he was very sorry that
4 many civilians were casualties in that operation. That's what he said.
5 But there you are. It was war. I guess they didn't really programme the
6 action very well. He said the Croats had released the civilians before
7 they were supposed to do that, and we, he said, had to blow up the bridge,
8 and that's how it happened. And I don't know. We talked about some other
9 things. I didn't ask him anything. I was just surprised why he was
10 telling me all of these things. But yes, he told them to me.
11 So we came to Zvornik. There is a motel there. He parked in
12 front of the motel. The street lights were beginning to come on and I
13 could see people sitting in front. They were all in camouflage uniforms.
14 They were mixed up. There were Red Berets, Arkan's soldiers there. And I
15 could see that everybody knew him there because when he parked the car,
16 they were asking him who is this man and he said: "He's ours." And when
17 he was leaving the car, Captain Dragan appeared in civilian clothes and
18 another journalist, a journalist from Ilustrovana Politika was with him,
19 and there was another woman there as well. Later she introduced herself
20 as his secretary from the fund. He extended his hand. He said: "Where
21 are you, Isak? How are you?" As if we knew each other. "You're a good
23 Q. Had you ever met him before?
24 A. No. No, I did not meet him before. I didn't have the opportunity
25 to talk to him.
1 Q. Had you seen him before?
2 A. I saw him once in Brcko. I think it was him. He was together
3 with the local Serbs. And of course I saw him on television. On those
4 occasions, he was also in civilian clothes. This was before the war.
5 Q. And during your ride to Zvornik from Brcko, did Rade Bozic tell
6 you what unit he was a part of?
7 A. Yes. Yes, he did. I asked him, and he said he was a professional
8 captain in the JNA, in the Special Units of the military police, for
9 special operations. We were talking about this when we left Brcko. I
10 mean, the man kept talking. I don't know. I didn't ask him very much,
11 but he kept talking by himself.
12 Q. And did you find out how he happened to come to Luka in the first
13 place and arrange for your release? How did he know about you?
14 A. I told you before that the big boss, aka Captain Dragan, ordered
15 for me to be released from there. Later, when it was all over, when I had
16 already met Captain Dragan and the people from his fund, and later I found
17 out from my wife and from a friend, a sports friend of mine who had
18 intervened on my behalf with Captain Dragan, that I would -- so that I
19 would be released from Luka. And all of that was initiated thanks to the
20 Serbian lieutenant whom I had met in Luka and to whom I had given the
21 phone number where my wife was.
22 So later when they found out from this man where I was, they then
23 saw where they could go to ask for my release. My wife staged a scene in
24 front of Captain Dragan. I don't know. I guess he liked her. He liked
25 the way she was conducting herself. So he promised her that the next day,
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13 English transcripts.
1 or within 48 hours, as he said. She didn't believe him, and he said:
2 "Well, you can be sure I'm going to bring him to you to Belgrade." So
3 that's how it was. Anyway, that's all I know.
4 Q. And after you met Captain Dragan in Zvornik, where did you go from
6 A. He sat down, and that woman, that secretary from the fund, and
7 that journalist, they all sat in the same car. So we crossed the Drina
8 from Bosnia and entered Serbia. There is a road there. The Serbians
9 built it. And when they saw him, they didn't even ask to see our IDs.
10 They wanted to have a photo taken together with him. "Oh, Captain Dragan,
11 how are you?" All the Serbians knew about him. "How is it going in
12 Bosnia?" And he said: "The next time I stop by I will have a picture
13 taken with you."
14 So then we just passed by, and during our drive we stopped for a
15 break, a little bit before Loznica. And then he came to the back seat
16 where I was sitting. And then he started to tell me: "Well, you saw
17 where you were over there in Luka." He said: "A human head is not worth
18 the -- a head of cabbage there. Be very careful what you say. Be very
19 careful what you do. You are a good man. Your wife is first-class and I
20 will deliver you to her. Don't worry. But I do have one request to make
21 of you." And I asked him: "What is it?" And he said: "When you come to
22 Belgrade, I will give you two or three days. Sit down, recover a little
23 bit, take a piece of paper or two, and write down for me what you saw in
24 Brcko from perhaps the 30th of April until you were there until the 7th of
25 July. Who took you to Luka, why they took you, what date were you taken
1 to Luka, where did you move around town, how did you move around, why were
2 you moving around. So just do that for me. You don't have to write more
3 than two pages. You can write that in your own handwriting. And I will
4 read it. And that is all that I am asking you to do. Just come to the
5 fund premises, tell the people at the reception that you need to see me.
6 They will allow you to do that. They will be expecting you. They'll know
7 you'll be coming to see me."
8 So I did that. I wrote it all down. And then two or three days
9 later I did go to the fund premises and I gave it to him.
10 Q. And what happened to those pages that you gave him that you had
12 A. In his office, there was this friend of mine, this sports friend
13 of mine. He drove me there. I didn't have a car at the time. We sat
14 down. I gave him the paper. He read it through and he told me: "Yes,
15 you did a good job." And then he said: "I have to give this to some
16 woman over there for her to type out, so it's more legible, and when it's
17 all finished, you'll see I'll take the paper that you wrote and I will
18 tear it up."
19 So we were just sitting there in the office, and then in about
20 five or ten minutes this woman typed it all out and she brought the typed
21 sheets back to him, and the sheets that I had written by hand, he took and
22 he tore them up. The sheets that she had typed up, he took. Then he
23 called somebody on the phone and he said: "Can you hear me? This is
24 Marti here." And he said: "I'm just going to send you something through
25 the fax." And he faxed the pages. And I guess the person on the other
1 side of the line said: "Well, give me a few minutes. I just want to read
2 what is here first and then I'll get back to you."
3 And we sat there for 15 minutes. We were talking about different
4 things, sports and so on. And then he called back that same person again
5 and he said: "What do you think about this report that's written?" I
6 guess he meant my report. I don't know. And then he turned around again
7 to me and he said: "Everything is all right." Like he was giving me a
8 green light or something. He said: "You've done your job. Now you are
9 free and if you ever need any help to get a personal ID card or a refugee
10 card in Belgrade, just come here and I will take care of all of that for
11 you. Just ask to see me and they will let you through here."
12 Then I left the fund offices and I went back to my friend's again.
13 I went twice. I tried on two occasions, because both of my brothers, and
14 one of my brother's sons, they were in Luka. Then all three of them later
15 were at Batkovic. I met him again on one occasion, and I asked him
16 whether he could help me, and he said: "Well, I'll see what I can do."
17 And then I heard nothing from him and I went to see him again, and he
18 said: "Don't come and see me here any more. If I can do anything,
19 I will call you at your friend's house and then you will hear from me."
20 Since that time, I never heard from him again. That was it.
21 Q. Let me ask you about the pages that you wrote up for him about
22 what had happened in Brcko. What did you write down about what happened
23 in Brcko? Did you write about the killings that you had seen?
24 A. No, I didn't write about the killings. I didn't write
25 about -- all that I wrote was that on the 27th of May, 1992, two Serbian
1 police officers from Brcko came and arrested me, took me to the SUP, took
2 me to Luka, beat me up. I was beaten up by a man called Ivan, dressed in
3 such-and-such a uniform. I didn't talk about the Red Berets. I didn't
4 talk about the people who came to the hangar. I didn't talk about
5 Ranko Cesic and that incident. I didn't talk about the pile of dead
6 bodies behind the hangar towards the Sava. I didn't talk about the murder
7 of two people in the police station. I didn't talk about the things that
8 I heard from the inmates at Luka. Perhaps I lied to him on purpose. I
9 don't know.
10 Q. Why did you do that?
11 A. I don't know, sir. Perhaps if you were in my position, maybe you
12 would do the same thing. I wanted to save my life.
13 Q. Did you think he didn't really want to hear about what had
14 happened in Brcko?
15 A. I don't know. I don't know why he asked me for that report. If
16 he wanted a realistic report, he had his own men there, so he could have
17 gotten a proper report. If they were honourable men, they probably did
18 send reports about what those same Red Berets and Arkan's soldiers did in
20 MR. HANNIS: Next, I'd like to show the witness the next exhibit
21 in our sequence. Yes. 39.022? I'm sorry. This is the new one. This is
22 the map. What number would that be?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P21.
24 MR. HANNIS:
25 Q. Mr. Gasi, can you see that on the screen in front of you?
1 A. Yes, I can see it, but it's not clear.
2 Q. Would it be easier if you had a hard copy to look at?
3 MR. HANNIS: May we hand the witness a hard copy? Thank you.
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. HANNIS:
6 Q. Now, can you tell us what that piece of paper is?
7 A. This is the paper that I brought to the courtroom yesterday.
8 That's the map of the town of Brcko, with the markings. If you wish, I
9 can go through it and explain what I marked with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and
11 Q. Yes. If you would, could you begin with number 1 and tell us what
12 location is marked by number 1, number 2, et cetera.
13 A. Number 1 is one of the bridges. That's the bridge that's used
14 only for passenger traffic. When it was working, also cars could pass
15 over it. Number 2 is the SUP building. Number 3 is the Luka and the
16 hangars. Number 4 is the building of the JNA, the barracks. Number 4
17 [sic] is about more or less the corner where my building, my apartment
18 building, is located, where I used to live, on the third floor, like I
19 said yesterday. Number 5 is the Elektrodistribucija, where I worked until
20 the 9th or 10th of May, when I was taken to Luka. Number 6 is the power
21 transmission line that passes through the firing range and that place that
22 we talked about yesterday. Number 8 is -- 6 is that place where the
23 photograph with the mass grave was taken. Number 7 is the place where, on
24 one occasion, I drew the location where I saw that same TAM truck and the
25 bulldozer which was burying those bodies that they were unloading from the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 TAM truck.
2 Q. Let me ask you about number 1. That's the bridge that we saw a
3 picture of earlier in your testimony?
4 A. Yes, that's the bridge.
5 Q. And the apartment where you lived is marked here with the number
6 4, and then "APT" written under it?
7 A. Yes. Yes. That's it. The barracks is the -- this compound of
8 buildings here, that's number 4. And here I just wrote where my apartment
10 Q. Thank you. You can set that aside for now.
11 MR. HANNIS: And could we show another exhibit to the witness? It
12 would be our number 49.03. It's the summary of the events in Brcko.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P22.
14 MR. HANNIS:
15 Q. Mr. Gasi, if you could look at the cover sheet of the B/C/S
16 version of that document. Can you read us the title of that?
17 A. "Summary of the events and situations with an assessment of the
18 degree of achievement." Is that what you're thinking of?
19 Q. Yes. That's it. Have you seen this document before today?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And was that here in this building when you were preparing to
23 A. Yes. You gave it to me to read.
24 Q. Had you ever seen it before that?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Were you able to read the signature on the last page of that
3 A. Yes. I told you what I think.
4 Q. And would you tell the Judges what you think that signature is.
5 A. Djordje Ristanic, the commander of the War Presidency at the time.
6 Q. Do you know whether or not he held that position at that time in
8 A. Yes, I know 100 per cent that he did.
9 Q. And did you know Djordje Ristanic before the war?
10 A. Yes. Yes, I knew him very well. We went to school together.
11 Q. Did you have a chance to read that summary before coming to Court
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. And based on your experience during the time you were in Brcko in
15 April and May of 1992, to the extent that that describes those events, is
16 it consistent with what you saw and experienced?
17 A. What is written down here, more or less, is actually what
18 happened. In some places, he mixes up the people from the paramilitary
19 groups, and he mixes up the JNA garrison where they actually received the
20 weapons from and from where everything was coordinated. And even in the
21 report here he says that they did not have good cooperation with the
22 garrison, which is a pure lie. That is my experience. And then he says
23 paramilitary groups which looted. That is also a pure lie, as if they
24 weren't able to prevent that. Actually, they coordinated everything with
25 them here.
1 This report is, I think, presenting a realistic situation in Brcko
2 in 1992. Well, there are some places where he's fudging and says that the
3 War Presidency leadership didn't know about certain things, that they
4 couldn't be prevented, and so on. In my opinion, there was no
5 uncontrolled chaos in Brcko, but everything was controlled and
7 Q. Thank you. You can set that aside for the moment.
8 MR. HANNIS: The next item I would like to show --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MR. HANNIS: Sorry. The next exhibit I would like to show the
11 witness, I think we may be skipping one in what we've given to the
12 registrar before. It would be our Exhibit 37.188, which is a video. I'm
13 not intending to play the video at this time, Your Honour. It's about an
14 hour long. But I have the transcript of the video. I would like to show
15 the transcript to the witness and ask him some questions about that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: May I first ask the registrar, and you, Mr. Hannis:
17 We have been provided with a translation as well. Would that have the
18 same exhibit number or ...?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P22.1.
20 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have been provided not only with a B/C/S
22 version, but also with an exhibit --
23 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- which is in English. From what I understood from
25 the witness is the translation, because the title was translated in a
1 similar way as what I find on the top of the other document. And was that
2 part of the exhibit or is that a separate exhibit? Because -- or am I
4 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. The English translation.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. HANNIS: Is ERN 00967572 on the first page.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would be an exhibit, and from the
10 numbering from the registrar, I understood that it gets the same number
11 but with dot 1 added.
12 MR. HANNIS: That's fine. Thank you. And then I wanted to talk
13 about the video, but we want to present to the witness the transcript.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Do I then take it that you only tender the transcript
15 and not the video?
16 MR. HANNIS: May I consult? Excuse me a moment, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 [Prosecution counsel confer]
19 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. It was my intention first of all
20 to ask him about what's in the transcript. He has watched the video and
21 he's read the transcript. We also have four still photos that have been
22 made of individuals appearing in the video that I propose to show him.
23 But it was not my intention to play the video at this time. But we did
24 want to tender the video and perhaps play it later with another witness or
25 offer it later on. It has not been synchronised yet, so for purposes of
1 trying to show an English translation as a B/C/S video is playing, it's
2 not an appropriate time for us to try to do that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So for the moment, you only tender what you say is
4 the transcript of the video?
5 MR. HANNIS: Yes. Although I intended to ask him if he had
6 actually seen the video on which this transcript is based.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
8 THE REGISTRAR: The transcript will be Prosecution Exhibit number
9 P23, and the translation in English, P23.1.
10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
11 Q. Mr. Gasi, can you read the top line of that document you have in
12 front of you?
13 A. Yes, I can. The report: "It was the last day of April, 1992.
14 Several hundreds of people gathered on the left bank, the Croatian side."
15 Q. I'm sorry. Is there is a title on the top line?
16 A. It just says "Exhibit transcript," no title.
17 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Gasi. I'm looking at the English, which has a
18 title, and I see that the B/C/S does not.
19 Let me ask you: Have you seen this document before testifying
20 this afternoon?
21 A. Yes. You gave it to me to read.
22 Q. And did you read the whole thing before today?
23 A. Yes. You asked me to do that, and I read all of it.
24 Q. Did you also --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, may I just interrupt you? You say that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the English version has a title on top of it and the B/C/S version not. I
2 have some difficulties in identifying any difference as far as titles are
3 concerned, apart from difference -- letter A and letter B after the OTP
4 reference number. But I do not see any title.
5 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. Looking at my notes, I see what I
6 was looking at was a cover page that was just separately attached to my
7 English translation that says "Documentary film, the Brcko file."
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.
9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
10 Q. And did you also watch the video on which this transcript is taken
12 A. I did, indeed.
13 Q. There are a number of people that appear in that video. Did you
14 know most or all of those people that appear in the film?
15 A. I know all the people on this video footage, all but one person at
16 the very end.
17 Q. Which person was that?
18 A. The Secretary of State of the United States of America,
19 Mrs. Madeleine Albright.
20 Q. And based on your experiences during your time in Brcko in April
21 and May of 1992 and your knowledge of the persons appearing in this video,
22 is the information contained therein accurate and consistent with what you
23 saw and heard?
24 A. What I have told you here, what I went through and what people are
25 saying in this video is all the same thing. It's the truth of the events
1 that took place in Brcko at the time. Some of the people that appear in
2 this video footage were with me in the Luka during the same time, and I'm
3 very glad to see that they have survived.
4 MR. HANNIS: Next, Your Honour, we have taken four separate video
5 stills from the video, and I would like to show those to the witness one
6 at a time. I don't know if it is easier to number this as one item, and
7 we'll have them shown to him one after another.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed. May I take it, since the video
9 has not been shown to the Chamber, that Defence has had an opportunity to
10 see it?
11 MR. STEWART: To be frank, Your Honour, I'm not sure whether we've
12 even had an opportunity, but if we've had an opportunity, bluntly, it's
13 not one that we've realised we had. We're not aware that we've got this
14 video, but maybe we have. Have we?
15 [Defence counsel confer]
16 MR. STEWART: Well, I said I'd be frank about it. I think we have
17 got it, but we haven't watched it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: But I do understand that at a later stage it will be
19 shown anyhow, so --
20 MR. STEWART: I beg your pardon, Your Honour?
21 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that it will be shown anyhow at a
22 later stage of the proceedings.
23 MR. STEWART: Yes.
24 MR. HANNIS: That's our intention, yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. HANNIS:
2 Q. Mr. Gasi, can you see that photo on the screen before you?
3 A. I can't see it, no. I can see it.
4 Q. I see four individuals pictured there. Can you start from the
5 left-hand corner, then go left, right, then down, and tell us who each of
6 those four individuals are, if you know.
7 A. Top left corner, Arkan. Top right corner, Vojislav Seselj.
8 Bottom left corner, Mirko Jovic. Bottom right corner, the person who took
9 me out of the Luka camp, Captain Dragan. It was on his orders that I was
10 taken out of the camp.
11 Q. And of those four, I think the only one you haven't talked about
12 before is Mirko Jovic. Can you tell us who he was and whether he was in
14 A. I don't know whether he was in Brcko, but his soldiers did make an
15 appearance in the Luka on several occasions. They were White Eagles.
16 Whether he was in Luka personally or not, I don't know, but his soldiers
17 did come to the Luka camp.
18 Q. And what kind of uniform or insignia did they have that
19 distinguished them from other groups?
20 A. The only difference was that they had white eagles on their arms,
21 and they introduced themselves as White Eagles. There are just slight
22 differences between their uniforms and the uniforms of those soldiers
23 belonging to Rade Bozic. The uniforms that Arkan's soldiers had and
24 Dragan's soldiers had were somewhat darker, whereas White Eagles's
25 uniforms were a bit lighter. They were still camouflage uniforms. That
1 was the only difference that I could notice.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. HANNIS: May we show him the next still photo in the sequence.
4 Q. Do you recognise the gentleman in that picture, sir?
5 A. Yes. Dr. Beli Vojinovic, the president of the Brcko SDS at the
7 MR. HANNIS: And if we could go to the next photo.
8 Q. Can you tell us who that is, please.
9 A. Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer.
10 Q. And finally, the fourth one. Who is that?
11 A. Djordje Ristanic.
12 Q. Thank you. And finally, Mr. Gasi, I have one more exhibit I want
13 to ask you about. Before we move on to that, may I ask what number we
14 gave those sequence of photos?
15 THE REGISTRAR: The set of four photographs will be Prosecution
16 Exhibit number P24.
17 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. And the next one is an autopsy report. I
18 only want to show the witness --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the Prosecution.
20 Microphone, please.
21 MR. HANNIS: I only want to show the witness page 7 of that
22 particular document. I believe it's 00636317.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. That's in the English version.
24 MR. HANNIS: Yes. Correct. Thank you. I think that's sufficient
25 for our purposes. No. We'll have him look at both.
1 And for the record, Your Honour, this is a page from one of the
2 expert reports that we filed in this case of autopsies that were taken
3 from bodies recovered in the Brcko area.
4 Q. Mr. Gasi, at the top of that page you'll see a list of five names
5 from the autopsy report done by Dr. Hunt, an expert witness listed in this
6 case. Do you recognise any of those five names as people that you knew in
8 A. Sakib Becirovic, Franjo Vugrincic and the guy at the top,
9 Almir Tursic. But I know Sakib Becirovic and Franjo Vugrincic personally.
10 I believe that I know the others as well. I believe that all of them are
11 from Brcko, as a matter of fact.
12 Q. Were any of these people in Luka at the time you were there?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did you hear from the other prisoners at Luka about what had
15 happened to Mr. Becirovic?
16 A. Yes. I heard from a man who was a member of the Partizan club.
17 He said that Sakib Becirovic, also known as Kibe, had been killed in front
18 of the Partizan stadium and that it was Ranko Cesic who killed him. This
19 man also told me that on that same day Ranko Cesic killed four or five
20 other men in addition to Kibe. This man mentioned all of their names. He
21 knew exactly who they were. I didn't recognise any of those names. In
22 any case, he told me that Kibe was killed on that same day in question.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. HANNIS: And Your Honour, for the record, you may recall
25 Mr. Cesic pled guilty to the murder of Mr. Becirovic.
1 I have no further questions for Mr. Gasi at this time.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, one question: Will you tender only page
3 7 of the report or the whole of the report?
4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, may I consult with Mr. Harmon for a
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 [Prosecution counsel confer]
8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, it's our intention to eventually file
9 the whole report. The status of our experts on autopsies was still
10 somewhat up in the air. We had been trying to reach an agreement with the
11 prior Defence counsel but had not arrived at that point. I think we
12 currently listed Dr. Hunt as a 92 bis (D) witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I couldn't confirm that, as a matter of fact, by
14 heart. But would it not be wise if no other questions have been put to
15 the witness, apart from whether he knew the five individuals named at page
16 7, to at this moment to limit ourselves to page 7? Because otherwise all
17 the rest would be in evidence as well, which might not be the appropriate
18 way of --
19 MR. HANNIS: That's fine, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar. Page 7, bearing the ERN number
23 00636317 would then be Exhibit number --?
24 THE REGISTRAR: P25.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
1 Since nothing of the text has been discussed in whatever way, I
2 think it's just a matter of recognition of five names. So therefore,
3 perhaps the translation in English is even not needed, and perhaps it's
4 even better that we do not have any knowledge apart from that there are
5 appearing five names -- this is the English version, yes.
6 MR. HANNIS: The page number I have referred to was the English
7 version, yes, Your Honour, but I have --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I apologise. Yes.
9 So this concluded your examination-in-chief, Mr. Hannis.
10 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gasi, all parties in a trial have the right to
12 examine you. You'll now be examined by counsel for the Defence.
13 Is it you, Mr. Stewart, or is it Ms. Loukas who is going to
15 MR. STEWART: It's me, Your Honour. But I wonder, in light of the
16 fact that we were handed that statement at the beginning of the afternoon,
17 and the fact that we have been running for an hour and a quarter, I'm, of
18 course, in the Tribunal's hands but I wonder whether the convenient thing
19 would be simply to take the break that would be due in 15 minutes at this
21 JUDGE ORIE: If you would not mind, I'd rather continue, because I
22 have to take into consideration the length of the tapes, and we get in
23 trouble later on --
24 MR. STEWART: Yes, I see.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Because we have then a longer session later on. So
1 if it would be possible for you to start the cross-examination and then we
2 would have a break in some 12 to 13 minutes. It's both a question of
3 interpreters spreading more or less the time available, and also a matter
4 of tape length. So if that would be possible for you --
5 MR. STEWART: Yes. I don't think that's going to be a problem,
6 Your Honour. Well, if after 10 minutes or so I've got to that point --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course.
8 MR. STEWART: -- We'll see how we go.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, could I just
11 take my wig off? Because it's a lot easier. I hope Your Honour doesn't
12 mind me being half-dressed in the national style, but it's a bit
13 ridiculous with the headphones.
14 JUDGE ORIE: From my past, I remember that some of your learned
15 friends would consistently refuse to take their wigs off ever when in
16 court, but I leave it entirely up to you.
17 MR. STEWART: I clearly haven't refused, Your Honour, and neither
18 has Your Honour refused me the privilege.
19 Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart:
20 Q. Mr. Gasi, just a couple of I hope not at all difficult points to
21 start with. Yesterday, when you were asked the day when you had left
22 Luka, you gave an answer, 7th of July exactly. That was at page 64 of
23 yesterday's transcript. And today, at one point, about three minutes to
24 3.00, you said the same thing again. You referred to the 7th of July.
25 But I believe it's quite clear from the rest of your evidence that your
1 consistent position is it is the 7th of June that you left.
2 A. I don't know. How could you hear me talking about the 7th of
3 July? Because I know it was on the 7th of June, 1992, and I said that
4 yesterday, and I have repeated it today. So how could you hear me saying
5 7th of July?
6 Q. Mr. Gasi, we don't need to fall out over this at all. You have
7 given me exactly the confirmation that I was asking for. It's only
8 through a slip of the tongue, no doubt, on the transcript the 7th of July
9 appears. So that's simply cleared up for everybody's benefit. We're not
10 in disagreement at all about that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: May I just -- I'd like to explain to Mr. Gasi.
12 Mr. Gasi, your original B/C/S, that is, Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian
13 words, are translated into English. I do not know. Sometimes there is
14 just a translation that might not to the full extent be correct. So what
15 you said yesterday, we always can check it if we want to, but it could
16 well be that it appears for us as July, where you say you said June. This
17 is not something to bother about, and the matter has been clarified.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. STEWART:
20 Q. You're looking puzzled, Mr. Gasi. I want to make it very clear
21 that on this particular point you're not under any attack, there isn't any
22 disagreement between us. Whatever disagreements we might reach on other
23 matters. You're still looking puzzled, but, well, I'll proceed.
24 The next point is this: That you have referred I think once or
25 twice in your evidence to SMB camouflage uniforms.
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Now, SMB, as I understand it, they're the words in your language,
3 but SMB simply stands for the three words which are in English, and it
4 will be translated for you, of course, grey-olive colour; is that correct?
5 A. Yes. Grey-olive colour, yes. Grey-olive colour. S is grey, M is
6 olive, B is colour. So that's what the abbreviation stands for. You're
8 Q. But isn't it correct that generally there are uniforms which are
9 described as SMB, and there are uniforms that are described as camouflage
10 uniforms, but in fact, they're two different styles of uniform?
11 A. You're absolutely right. While I was serving in the army, there
12 was just one shade of SMB, of olive colour, grey-olive colour, and it
13 lasted for a while. However, they also had camouflage olive-grey
14 uniforms, even when I was in the army. There were some special army
15 branches that used to wear olive-drab camouflage uniforms.
16 Q. Mr. Gasi, do you remember that you gave an interview way back
17 in -- or you were interviewed way back in 1993, in Copenhagen, by a body
18 called the Danish Helsinki Committee?
19 A. I remember this very well.
20 Q. What were the circumstances in which you were interviewed? Let me
21 ask you this: How did you come to be in Denmark?
22 A. I was a refugee there. I went to Macedonia first, then to
23 Bulgaria, Romania, then Ukraine, all of Poland. Then from Poland, I took
24 a ferry to Copenhagen. I went from Belgrade to Macedonia first, and then
25 I did all this travelling that I've just described.
1 Q. All right. Well, then you arrived in Copenhagen when?
2 A. 16 October 1992.
3 Q. Your interview, then, was in May 1993, the 7th of May, 1993 is the
4 date. Does that figure for you?
5 A. Yes, it's correct.
6 Q. And we have prepared on the Defence side -- it's a clip or a small
7 bundle of materials which I would like the witness, and of course
8 everybody else, the Tribunal and everybody else, to have. They're indexed
9 and numbered. And in particular, if you go to what's described on the
10 index as 3-A, well, 3-B in your case, Mr. Gasi, at page 20 of the B/C/S
11 version, and at page 11 is the English.
12 A. Yes. 11? Is it 11?
13 Q. It's 20, the B/C/S version, page 20. Page 11 is the English
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. STEWART: I should say, Your Honour, just for the record, the
17 numbering on the left-hand side, that's been added by me, because it just
18 seemed to be very inconvenient if we were trying to look for paragraphs,
19 especially since they don't completely tally as far as the page layout is
20 concerned. So, for the record, that's been added on both versions, by me.
21 Q. If we look at paragraph 2, could you just cast your eye down
22 paragraph 2 and paragraph 3, and I think you can then confirm that those
23 paragraphs aren't accurate in the sense that they're consistent with the
24 evidence that you've so far given to this Tribunal.
25 A. What is disputable here? Is there something missing or did I omit
1 something from my testimony that you can find here in the statement?
2 Q. I'll tell you what we'll do, Mr. Gasi. We will -- it will all
3 become clear, no doubt, but we'll continue with me asking the questions,
4 Mr. Gasi, and if you would do your best to answer them.
5 So my question is, if you cast your mind down paragraphs -- cast
6 your eye down paragraphs 2 and 3, do you agree that's consistent with your
7 current position and the evidence that you've given to this Tribunal?
8 A. I was born in Brcko. My father is Albanian, mother is a Muslim, I
9 lived in Brcko, I was an athlete, a canoe rower, I was politically
11 Q. I don't necessarily invite you to read the whole thing out loud.
12 I'm just asking if you've read to yourself the paragraphs and confirm what
13 I've suggested which is that it's entirely consistent with your current
14 position and the evidence that you've given to this Tribunal.
15 A. In the second paragraph that you marked, 3, it says here -- maybe
16 this is what you're looking for. A neighbour of mine took me --
17 Q. [Previous translation continues]... not to be looking all the time
18 for what I'm looking for. Let me worry about that. If you could just
19 please answer my questions?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, could we give Mr. Gasi time to read so
21 that he can confirm, because that's what he started doing aloud. But --
22 Mr. Gasi, you may read paragraphs 2 and 3 and then answer the
24 A. Yes. It's okay. We can move on. I subscribe to everything that
25 I read here. Is that your point? Was that the purpose of your question?
1 MR. STEWART:
2 Q. Let's look at paragraph 4, Mr. Gasi. In Brcko there was no
3 resistance against the federal army, only some shooting at the barricades
4 and the Muslim parts of the town. The Muslims had panicked and taken
5 refuge in a Muslim part of the town, and - you're G, you're described
6 as - who had confidence in the federal army, remained in your flat next
7 to the barracks in the central part of the town.
8 So it's correct that you had confidence in the federal army at
9 that time?
10 A. Yes, it's correct. I did.
11 Q. And the next sentence: "The worst deeds were committed not by the
12 army but by paramilitary groups which arrived after the army."
13 And that's correct as well, is it?
14 A. Correct, yes.
15 Q. If we move on to a reference in this document, at paragraph 9,
16 numbered paragraph 9, do you see that you refer to Pudic. Read that
17 paragraph to yourself, please. It's quite a short paragraph. And just
18 note the reference at the end to Pudic, Jovan, or perhaps it's
19 Jovan Pudic.
20 A. I saw these photos in Belgrade, and which committee showed them to
21 me in Helsinki, they showed me a copy from the British Guardian, depicting
22 a policeman in a police uniform shooting in the back of some civilians. I
23 didn't say that I knew that person in the photo. I told them that I saw
24 this photographer in Belgrade, the photographer who had taken these photos
25 in Brcko. And one of these photos depicts Jovan Pudic. I don't know how
1 this came into the interview. I did not have an opportunity to correct
2 anything in it. I returned to the centre where I lived, and later on I
3 was provided with an English copy of this text, and that's where the
4 mistake arises from.
5 Q. Well, the -- let's see how far there was a mistake. Is the
6 position simply that you were able, at least on one photograph, to
7 identify Pudic Jovan, or Jovan Pudic?
8 A. In the building of the Helsinki Watch, when I was giving the
9 interview, people showed me a copy of the photo from the Guardian, and I
10 told them that I couldn't recognise the man in that particular photo, but
11 I saw some other photos taken by the same photographer. I read this text.
12 I did not say that the person depicted in the photo that they showed to me
13 on that occasion was Jovan Pudic. I never said that.
14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I see it's just on a quarter to. I
15 don't know whether that is now a convenient time for the Tribunal.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's an appropriate time to have a break.
17 Mr. Gasi, we'll have a break for 20 minutes. We adjourn.
18 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
21 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Gasi, I'm going to have handed to you, and we also have copies
23 for the Tribunal and everyone else, a statement, in your case, Mr. Gasi,
24 in B/C/S, but otherwise available in English, a statement that you gave on
25 the 4th, 5th, and 11th of April, 1995, being interviewed by Susan Castro
1 and Frederick Buckley on behalf of this Tribunal.
2 MR. STEWART: Does the witness have that now, the ...
3 Q. First of all, Mr. Gasi, do you remember making this statement over
4 a period of three days in April 1995?
5 A. Yes. I don't know whether it was three days, but it was
6 definitely two.
7 Q. It records three days on the front, so -- but I don't think that
8 need be an issue between us, Mr. Gasi.
9 If you go to page 5 of the statement, I hope there's a reasonable
10 match in the page layout. Can you find a paragraph that begins: "On May
11 27th, 1992 ..." On the English version it's right in the middle of page
12 5. Can you find that, Mr. Gasi? It should be on page 5, or very close.
13 It begins with the date. It says: "On May 27th".
14 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour and Mr. Stewart. I have a
15 version in B/C/S with paragraphs numbered that may help him find his way
16 more easily.
17 MR. STEWART: Well, it might, yes. Thank you. I'm much obliged.
18 [Defence counsel confer]
19 MR. STEWART: It's a very helpful suggestion. The only thing is I
20 don't have the key to point the witness to the numbered paragraph.
21 MR. HANNIS: We also have an English version with the paragraphs
23 MR. STEWART: Well, that would be most helpful. That's extremely
24 helpful. Thank you. That will enable us to get there.
25 Q. In fact, what I want you to do -- that was just a reference point.
1 I want you to go, Mr. Gasi, please, to paragraph 21. It's a paragraph
2 beginning: "When I got to Luka, a man with the surname Pudic." Do you
3 have that paragraph?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And if you look through, about four or five lines from
6 the -- please read through that paragraph, and then I'd -- before you do
7 that, just draw your attention to a short sentence, which in English is:
8 "I was not beaten."
9 A. I wasn't beaten.
10 Q. I'm waiting for the translation of that remark.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I heard the translation to be "I wasn't beaten,"
12 but ...
13 MR. STEWART: Yes. It just didn't come through, Your Honour.
14 Q. Yes. "I was not beaten." Yes.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. That's what your statement says. Yesterday in the evidence before
17 this Tribunal, when you described what happened at Luka, you said: "A
18 policeman from the Brcko police station took me there, and this guy whose
19 name was Pudic was waiting for me there. He hit me with a pistol on the
20 head and they took me into the first office on the right-hand side."
21 So you seem to be -- it's some years later, but you seem to be
22 unclear about whether Mr. Pudic did or didn't hit you, and back in 1995,
23 much shorter after the events, you didn't suggest that he had hit you on
24 your arrival. Is it that -- is that correct, that he didn't hit you?
25 A. It's correct that he hit me, but in the statement -- I don't know
1 why it's in the statement the way it is. Well, he did hit me on the side
2 of the head. He didn't hit me actually on the head, but more on the side
3 to my ear. I don't know why in the statement it says that he did not, but
4 he did hit me on the right side of the head. That is correct.
5 Q. If we look at page -- paragraph 26 in your statement, you refer to
6 Mr. Pudic again. Do you see?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. If we go to look at your evidence yesterday, and this is at -- you
9 don't have this, Mr. Gasi, but this is at page 89 of the transcript, for
10 the reference.
11 Mr. Hannis put to you: "You told us how the first day you arrived
12 you were hit on the head by Mr. Pudic. Were you yourself personally
13 physically abused during your 10 or 11 days at Luka besides that time?"
14 And then you said, which is what you just said a moment ago: "He
15 didn't hit me in the head. Actually, he missed my head and put
16 me -- and hit me in the ear. But on that same day, I was beaten up. That
17 was a bit later."
18 Go back to your statement, please. If you look at the paragraph
19 which is numbered 24 -- you see, it's a paragraph that begins: "At around
20 2.00 p.m." You say: "At around 2.00 p.m. I was beaten by Ivan, whose
21 surname I don't know. After that incident I learnt from the other
22 prisoners that his name was Ivan."
23 And then you go on a few sentences later you say: "In his hand he
24 held a wrench which is used to connect fire hoses."
25 Do you see that reference?
1 A. Yes. He had a wrench. Yes.
2 Q. "Ivan tried to hit me in the head but I moved my head. He hit the
3 shoulder instead. He then hit me on the other shoulder and I fell on my
4 hands and knees," and then you go on to describe that and then at the end
5 of that paragraph you say, the last couple of lines: "I was bruised from
6 the beating. I continue to have problems from the injury near my ear.
7 The bones near my ear continued to ache for seven months after I was
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you see that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Gasi, I'm not putting it to you. Please don't misunderstand.
13 I'm not putting it to you that you weren't at Luka or anything like that,
14 but I do suggest to you that what you said in your statement in 1995,
15 which was no mention of Mr. Pudic hitting you when you first arrived was
16 correct and that after all this time you are tending to become confused
17 about the different people involved here, that in fact it was Ivan who
18 tried to hit you on the head but failed to hit you where he wanted to. It
19 was not Pudic that hit you on the head at all. You're just perhaps not
20 surprisingly getting some of these people mixed up.
21 A. Let me tell you something. I was in Luka. For the two or three
22 days that I've been here with the Prosecutor, I went through a lot, even
23 more than from before the war. And I'm telling you now exactly the way it
24 was. It could not have been any other way. Pudic did hit me with a
25 pistol. In 2001, I went to meet this same Pudic in Brcko, but I couldn't
1 find him. That was in the beginning, when they brought me to Luka.
2 Did I tell this to The Hague investigators before, and perhaps
3 they didn't put it in the statement? That I don't know. But I am telling
4 you: Pudic did want to hit me on the head. I don't know. I dodged. And
5 he did catch me on the right side of the head, and I was pushed into this
6 office where he was. I described all of that. And also, you have the
7 description of what happened with Ivan. You have it there, exactly as it
8 happened, and it was the way it's described in the statement.
9 Q. So the position, you say, Mr. Gasi, is that in fact both Mr. Pudic
10 and this other man Ivan tried to hit you on the head, both of them failed
11 to hit you on the head in the way that they were attempting to do? Right
12 so far?
13 A. I don't know what he wanted, but he did want to hit me on the
14 head. This was obvious. So he did hit me on a part of the head. Later,
15 in the hangar, I described what happened between myself and Ivan. That's
16 what happened. I don't know how to describe it in any other way. There's
17 nothing else I can tell you.
18 Q. And the reason that you didn't mention Mr. Pudic hitting you on
19 your arrival in your statement that said that you were not beaten was you
20 say that there must have been some omission in the writing down of what
21 you said to the investigators in the statement?
22 A. Let me tell you again: I don't know how it happened. I don't
23 know whether I said that he hit me or not. I think that I did say it, and
24 he did hit me, but I don't know why that's not included in the statement.
25 I can't tell you that. But you can be sure yourself, and this
1 Trial Chamber, that I am telling you only the truth. I'm telling you how
2 it was and the way it was is the way it is described here.
3 Q. I'm just suggesting to you, Mr. Gasi, that there's every
4 possibility that you get confused about these names and confused about
5 these particular unpleasant incidents. You don't agree?
6 A. You can be sure that I know very well who interfered with me in
7 Luka from day one. You can be convinced of that.
8 Q. All right. In your evidence yesterday, when you were talking
9 about the events that you described as having witnessed on the 7th of May,
10 that's the executions that you described to the Tribunal, you said that
11 the policeman -- you were describing one of the incidents that you
12 witnessed. You said: "The policeman who shot in their backs he wore a
13 blue shirt with short sleeves of the kind the policemen used to wear
14 before the war and also a pistol and the others who were all shooting at
15 people they all wore, camouflage JNA uniforms with balaclavas, black
16 balaclavas over their heads."
17 Now, you remember saying that yesterday?
18 A. Yes, I remember. Perhaps I said yesterday that he wore a
19 short-sleeved shirt. I remember that also. But if you ...
20 Q. Well, you said -- it's in the transcript. You said he wore a blue
21 shirt with short sleeves. It's there on the record.
22 If you look at -- this is in English, so I'm simply going to tell
23 you what it says. But for everybody else's benefit, we have a transcript
24 of evidence that you gave in a case. Do you recall giving evidence in a
25 case against Mr. Tadic?
1 A. Yes, I do recall, and I did give evidence in that case.
2 Q. And in that case, and this is at page -- it starts -- this
3 particular transcript starts at page 6 of the clip of documents that we
4 have. And I'll read it for your benefit as well, Mr. Gasi. It's at page
5 723 of that transcript, beginning -- I'll pick it up at line 19: "Yes, I
6 was in the immediate --" well, I'll pick it up two lines above that. "So
7 during this time between 30th of April and 27th of May when you were free
8 for move about the town of Brcko, during that time, did you see any
9 persons killed in the town of Brcko?"
10 You said: "Yes, I was in the immediate vicinity when they shot
11 civilians in the street."
12 "When was that?"
13 "On the 7th of May at 11.00 in the morning."
14 "What did you see on that date?"
15 And then you said: "In one part of town called Stari Grad, I saw
16 civilians being shot in the middle of the street in groups of four to six
17 to seven persons fired at, shot by men wearing camouflage uniforms of a
18 grey-olive-green colour. And in the same place on the same spot they
19 killed three men. They were killed by members of the civilian police in
20 uniforms. That is, one of them shot three of them. He fired behind their
21 backs at the back of their heads."
22 The point I want to draw your attention to, Mr. Gasi, is you
23 described the shooting as being done by men wearing camouflage uniforms of
24 a grey olive-green colour.
25 Then at page 726 of that same transcript, you are describing being
1 taken from the police station to Luka. It's the same incident that you
2 described in your evidence yesterday. You said at line 22, at page 726:
3 "From the SUP," from the police station, "they took me to Luka. It is a
4 site on the bank of the Sava, huge hangar. They took me there again in a
5 civilian car belong to go an enterprise or something like that."
6 And you were asked: "Who took you there?"
7 And you said: "This time, they wore the uniforms of the reserve
8 JNA, two of them. I know one of them. It was a local neighbour, a Serb
9 from Brcko."
10 So again, I'm drawing your attention to the fact you referred
11 specifically, you said, "this time they wore the uniforms of the reserve
13 And then at the -- on the same page, further down, you're being
14 asked about the Luka camp.
15 At line 16:
16 "Q. While you were at the camp was the camp guarded?
17 A. Yes, yes, there were guards.
18 Q. What did these guards wear?
19 A. The guards were outside the hangars, around those
20 hangars, and they again wore reserve JNA uniforms.
21 Q. Were there other camp personnel who were located
22 inside the camp?
23 A. Yes, there were."
24 What I'm drawing your attention to here, Mr. Gasi, is that you are
25 very specific in your evidence in the case against Mr. Tadic, where you
1 gave your evidence in 1996. You were very specific to make the point that
2 on the second and third of those occasions that you're mentioning the men
3 concerned were wearing JNA uniforms, whereas in relation to the shooting
4 in the street which you had witnessed on the 7th of May, you did not
5 mention JNA uniforms. Do you agree that that shows very clearly that you
6 were intending to make that contrast and recognising that JNA uniforms had
7 not been worn by the men involved in the first incident, the shooting in
8 the street?
9 A. In 1992, and before 1992 as well, in the former Yugoslavia,
10 nobody - please keep that in mind - nobody except the JNA had the right,
11 nor were you able to freely buy anywhere in the territory of the former
12 Yugoslavia any type of uniform. As far as I'm concerned, if you were
13 issued a uniform, it was issued to you only from a JNA warehouse. There
14 were changes in the federal army regarding the shades of the uniforms, and
15 this was in the period from 19 -- to 1992. But from 1990 to 1992 you were
16 able to see everywhere old reserve JNA uniforms, as well as uniforms of
17 active soldiers of the JNA, as well as new camouflage uniforms which
18 belonged to the JNA. The gentlemen who wore those uniforms, I don't know
19 where they got them. I don't know whether they bought them or received
20 them from the federal army. I was not able to buy a police uniform or
21 such a uniform that they wore. Perhaps there were some places where you
22 could buy such a uniform, but I didn't know them. That is all. I
23 attempted, as much as I could, before the Trial Chamber, to describe all
24 of this. That's how it was. I don't know that it happened in any other
1 Q. In the case against Mr. Tadic, you gave very similar evidence to
2 the evidence you gave yesterday in relation to the arming of Serbs by the
3 JNA, and you recall the evidence that you gave yesterday on that, that in
4 your travelling around the area of Brcko in connection with your work, you
5 did see people being armed?
6 A. Yes. I saw that on several occasions, several times I saw things
7 like that.
8 Q. You never mentioned, although you did say that in the Tadic case,
9 I'm acknowledging that, you never mentioned that in the statement that you
10 gave, the one that we looked at a little while ago, the written statement
11 taken by the investigators. You didn't say anything at all about that,
12 did you?
13 A. If they asked me, I must have answered. Whenever they asked me a
14 question, I would tell them what I saw, that is, if I was asked what I
16 Q. Is it correct that at the time that we're talking about in early
17 1992, that weapons were only attainable from the JNA by becoming -- by
18 joining the reservists of the JNA? That's right, isn't it?
19 A. The JNA reserve and the Territorial Defence.
20 Q. And if the -- and the system that you describe of logging the
21 issue of weapons, because you describe that and you would have to sign and
22 there would be a little booklet I think is the way you put it, that's the
23 system that applied in those circumstances, wasn't it?
24 A. Yes, because the constitution of the former Yugoslavia was still
25 in effect, and the Yugoslav People's Army observed the constitution. It's
1 a fact. I didn't add anything to it, I didn't omit anything from it.
2 What I saw is exactly what was being done.
3 Q. What I suggest to you is that you didn't see anything more than an
4 entirely regular and legitimate issue of weapons.
5 A. Yesterday when the Prosecutor asked me about that, I told him that
6 I had an opportunity to see lorries coming to Serbian villages and
7 unloading boxes of rifles. There were civilians there waiting for the
8 arms. They put a desk in front of the local commune building. They were
9 handed out the weapons, and this was recorded in a log. That's what I
11 Q. But isn't the position that you were just travelling around the
12 area in the course of your work? Weren't you?
13 A. Yes, you are right. I entered these buildings. I had to be there
14 because my work took me there. And that's how I gained the opportunity to
15 observe all that, and that's the truth.
16 Q. Well, the point I'm making, Mr. Gasi, is you were there to do your
17 work. Presumably you were getting on with your work. You weren't there
18 to sit around and observe in detail what was happening in relation to
19 weapons. So you actually don't know to whom the weapons are being issued,
20 and you don't know that it wasn't simply a regular issue of weapons in the
21 way that I've described.
22 A. Listen carefully, sir: I had plenty of time, and I even had a
23 drink with those people. They even offered me a piece, because they
24 thought that I was one of them, if that can help you to arrive at the
25 truth. I had plenty of time to observe everything in great detail and to
1 remember everything very, very well. So rest assured, I'm telling you the
3 Q. In your evidence in the Milosevic case, and this is in the clip
4 that we have, Mr. Milosevic cross-examined you relatively briefly,
5 Mr. Gasi. He said that -- this is at 26446, Your Honours.
6 And he asked you: "Who was fighting who in Brcko?" And your
7 answer was: "To tell you the truth, I don't know."
8 A. And I will repeat it again. I don't know. I didn't see where
9 shooting was taking place and who was there. That's what things were
11 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Stewart: In my copy, it
12 jumps from 26444 to 26447.
13 MR. STEWART: Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour. I had -- I had thought
14 that it was perhaps just my copy where that happened, and I knew what it
15 said anyway. But, so, my apologies. Well, perhaps Your Honour can --
16 we'll take it from me it does say that and we will supply that copy to the
17 Tribunal to make that gap good.
18 MR. HANNIS: I'm missing the same pages, Your Honour.
19 MR. STEWART: Yes. We'll fill in that for everybody if Your
20 Honour will accept it on that basis, because I can assure Your Honour that
21 that simple exchange is on the transcript, and I will provide that page.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you are literally quoting and in
23 the context we have an opportunity to see that later.
24 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. It's a very short
25 exchange and I have a verbatim note of that. So that is exactly what the
1 exchange was.
2 Q. The position in early 1992, and through into April, was, and I
3 think this is the gist of what you've just been saying, Mr. Gasi, was, to
4 put it mildly, extremely confused, wasn't it?
5 A. I don't know. It may seem confusing to you, but to me it did not
6 look confusing at all.
7 Q. Well, in circumstances where your answer to Mr. Milosevic on the
8 question, well, who was fighting who, was that: "To tell you the truth, I
9 don't know, Mr. Milosevic," I'd suggest that implies, since, according to
10 you, there was a lot of fighting going on, that implies considerable
11 confusion as to what was going on.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.
13 MR. HANNIS: Excuse me, Your Honour. Here I think it would be
14 very helpful to have the transcript, because I don't know if he's talking
15 about who fighting who on a particular day, a particular part of town, et
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I can help on that.
19 Mr. Milosevic was -- it wouldn't take a couple of minutes to get it, but
20 Mr. Milosevic, the full question, who was fighting who in Brcko, and he
21 was talking about this time period, the same period about which this
22 witness has given evidence.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if it would be possible for you to provide us
24 with the relevant transcript pages and return to this issue perhaps after
25 the next break, or at a later stage.
1 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, except that I shall finish, I think,
2 Your Honour, well before the next break. But I'm in Your Honour's hands.
3 I'm delighted to do that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We will see whether it's possible. I see
5 Madam registrar already searching in the transcripts of the Milosevic case
6 to see whether she can provide the pages so that we have a better idea of
7 the context. If you could move to your next subject and we'll try to
8 solve the and matter even before the next break.
9 MR. STEWART: Yes, of course, Your Honour.
10 Q. Well, I'll move to my next topic. In fact, yes, I -- all right.
11 In the transcript of your evidence in this case - this is at pages
12 23, 24, and 25 - you gave evidence yesterday of a rally that you had
13 attended. Do you recall that? And it was in fact a rally organised, you
14 said, strictly speaking, it was organised by a cultural organisation in
15 Brcko. Do you recall that?
16 A. Yes. It was the Serbian cultural and arts society, called
17 Prosvjeta, enlightenment.
18 Q. Yes. And you said that everybody from the Serbian Democratic
19 Party from Sarajevo appeared at this rally, except, you think, for
20 Mr. Karadzic. And then in fact you asserted a bit more directly that he
21 wasn't there. Is the position in fact that you're not sure whether
22 Mr. Karadzic was there, or that you're saying your clear recollection is
23 that he wasn't there?
24 A. During that rally, he wasn't there in that hall. The speakers
25 introduced all of those who were present and those people whose names were
1 called stood up. I didn't see him.
2 Q. Yes. And you said that you did see Mr. Krajisnik there. Again,
3 is it that you think Mr. Krajisnik was there or that you are sure that he
4 was there, in your own mind?
5 A. I am absolutely positive that he was there with other SDS leaders,
6 a hundred per cent. A hundred per cent sure.
7 Q. Mr. Krajisnik says he wasn't there, Mr. Gasi.
8 MR. HANNIS: Objection, Your Honour. We have no evidence of that
9 at this point.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that it's the position of the
11 Defence that Mr. Krajisnik wasn't there? Because whether he says
12 something, he has not told us, but that's, I take it, what is contained in
13 your statement.
14 MR. STEWART: I'm surprised by the intervention because I would
15 understand that's a perfectly conventional way of putting the Defence
17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll get used to each other. That's how I
18 understood it, and since Mr. Krajisnik, apart from his short statement,
19 has not spoken a word, that's how I understood it so -- but we get used to
20 each other's --
21 MR. STEWART: I'm sure we will, Your Honour. Rather than trying
22 to adapt -- I will adapt my style, of course, as necessary but perhaps
23 it's simpler if I just indicate that if I, at any point in this case, say
24 "Mr. Krajisnik says" then it can be taken that those are our instructions
25 on the Defence side and that when Mr. Krajisnik comes to give his
1 evidence, that Mr. Krajisnik's instructions are that that's what he will
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do see that we have some different
4 traditions, but if we try to understand each other's traditions, it will
5 work out perfectly well. Please proceed.
6 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. The -- I think, Mr. Gasi, you are not sure whether this particular
8 cultural rally was before or after the referendum at the end of February
10 A. You are right. Yesterday I said that it was after the referendum,
11 but I can't be sure. I don't know whether it was before the referendum in
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina or after it. I cannot recall that for a fact. But
13 in any case, the rally was in the culture hall.
14 Q. If you look at page 30 in the bundle of documents that we've given
15 you today, you'll find a short note, and at page 29, Your Honour, is the
16 English version. I couldn't say, in fact, which is the original. It
17 probably is the English version. But I understand this is -- I'm informed
18 by the Prosecution this is a note made by an investigator on behalf of the
20 Have a look at that, Mr. Gasi. Would you just read perhaps the
21 first bit down to the first line across the page. Do you see that?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is this the same rally?
24 A. There was also a founding assembly of the SDS in Brcko in front of
25 the cultural hall and Mr. Karadzic spoke. There was also a pre-election
1 rally in 1990, and there was this rally in the culture hall when the
2 cultural and arts society was being established. This was at the very
3 end, when the Prosecutor asked me about this, and I spoke in general
4 terms. I did not refer to any particular rally. If you want me to go in
5 any detail, I'm willing to do so.
6 Q. I'm just asking you, first, whether -- we'll go into detail as
7 necessary, but I'm asking you first, and I'm not a hundred per cent clear
8 of your answer, whether you're saying that this is or possibly might be
9 the same event as the one that you were just talking about a moment ago,
10 at which you said Mr. Krajisnik was present.
11 A. Where it says the SDS leaders would always make reference to the
12 victimisation of Serbs in the past.
13 Q. No, Mr. Gasi. I haven't asked you to read on to the second
14 paragraph. The first paragraph only was what I invited you to read, and
15 it refers to an open rally. Mr. Karadzic visited Brcko. And I'm simply
16 asking you whether it -- let's say, in your view, whether it definitely
17 is, definitely isn't, or might be the same event as the one that we were
18 talking about a moment ago, at which you said Mr. Krajisnik was present.
19 A. Karadzic spoke at the founding assembly in front of the cultural
20 hall. He was talking about red flags waving. And people who spoke in the
21 cultural home at the next rally spoke along the same lines. They repeated
22 Karadzic's words that he uttered at the founding assembly in front of the
23 cultural hall.
24 Q. You refer -- it's just that you refer specifically in your
25 evidence yesterday to - and this is at page 24 of the transcript - you
1 said: "There was also another gentleman from the Republic of Serbia who
2 was introduced at the rally as the minister for the Serbs across the
3 Drina River."
4 Do you remember that? Do you remember saying that yesterday?
5 A. I do remember.
6 Q. It's just that in this note that we're looking at, a similar point
7 arises. Do you see towards the end of that first paragraph, it says:
8 "There was also a minister from the government of Serbia present at the
9 rally"? I'm just suggesting to you that maybe, given that reference,
10 perhaps you'd like to rethink. Perhaps these are the same event.
11 A. Here, where Mr. Karadzic is mentioned, this was the founding
12 assembly of the SDS. That's when he spoke about red flags. And then
13 there was another rally in the culture hall, when his words were repeated
14 by other people. And there were also a number of other local SDS meetings
15 at which his words were repeated. I didn't omit or add anything. This is
16 just a general view of the things. I can analyse each of these events if
17 you want me to do that. I don't know what is disputable in all that.
18 Q. Well, don't worry about that, Mr. Gasi.
19 The -- when you gave your evidence yesterday about the cultural
20 organisation meeting, you said, apart from Mr. Karadzic you said wasn't
21 there, everybody else, including Mr. Krajisnik, Biljana Plavsic,
22 Aleksa Buha, and Nikola Koljevic were there. When we look at this note
23 of, according to you, it would be a different meeting, you say: "Almost
24 all of the other SDS meetings in Brcko, a member of the republic SDS
25 leadership would attend, like Koljevic, Plavsic, Aleksa Buha and others."
1 So in fact you mention three of the four people you mentioned yesterday
2 but not Mr. Krajisnik. Is there any reason why you don't mention
3 Mr. Krajisnik or, put it more accurately, Mr. Krajisnik is not mentioned
4 at all in this note?
5 A. Mr. Krajisnik was there in culture hall, and that's the truth. He
6 was there, and that is a fact. I don't have any other answer to give you.
7 The only person who was not in the culture hall at that time, during that
8 rally, was Mr. Karadzic.
9 Q. It's a slightly different questions question, perhaps, Mr. Gasi.
10 If we just concentrate on the note where you say: "At almost all of the
11 other SDS meetings a member of the republic SDS leadership would attend,
12 and then you name Mr. Koljevic, you name Mrs. Plavsic, you name Mr. Buha,
13 you don't name Mr. Krajisnik. I'm really asking you why Mr. Krajisnik
14 should be omitted from that list.
15 A. Truth be told, I really don't know why. But Mr. Krajisnik was in
16 the culture hall on that occasion. I really don't know. I can't give you
17 an answer. Mr. Krajisnik was there. And I subscribe to that. I am not
18 going to say any differently.
19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that only leaves the point that was
20 left over in relation to the page of the -- the missing page of
21 Mr. Milosevic's transcript. So --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that Madam Registrar
23 has distributed the failing pages. We have got them available.
24 But before you go to the next -- to that issue, you introduced
25 page 29 and page 30 as -- let me just look at it. If you look at page 30
1 in the bundle of documents, and on the cover page, we see "Document
2 relating to Gasi" but it's totally unclear to me what kind of document
3 this is. Is this a summary made by someone else or is it -- it's unclear
4 to me.
5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it was unclear to me. Perhaps I
6 mentioned it to quickly in passing a few minutes ago that it had been
7 prepared by Mr. Wladimiroff. But I think Mr. Hannis has the exact details
8 in relation to this.
9 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Stewart asked me about this
10 before we started. In checking my file, the only information I had about
11 this particular document is a form called "Information index form," which
12 indicates that this was a statement of Mr. Gasi about several SDS rallies,
13 that it was taken or noted down on the 1st of January, 1996, or at least
14 it was submitted on that date; and the receiver of this information was
15 Mr. Vladimir Tochilovsky, an attorney in our office.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Which is not the same person as Mr. Wladimiroff.
17 MR. STEWART: That must have been my mistake, Your Honour, because
18 I wrote it down on a different piece of paper and I'd remembered it as
19 Wladimiroff. One can see the connection, at least.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That having been clarified, so it's a kind of an
21 internal note prepared by the Office of the Prosecution.
22 MR. HANNIS: Correct, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Not a signed document. I just want to know the
24 status of that document. Yes.
25 Then, Mr. Stewart, I think all the Judges now have pages 26445 and
1 26446 as well, so --
2 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We've acquainted ourselves with the context in which
4 the question was put by Mr. Milosevic. Please proceed.
5 MR. STEWART: Yes.
6 Q. Just to remind ourselves and you, Mr. Gasi: You were being
7 cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic, and he had asked you about those JNA
8 airplanes that you had mentioned yesterday and bombing. I just want to
9 ask you briefly, as it happens, about that. You said yesterday, and this
10 was at page 53 of the transcript, that during the period up to your arrest
11 on the 27th of May, you continued to work around Brcko. That's correct,
12 isn't it? You did continue to move around Brcko?
13 A. Yes. From the 10th of May to the 27th of May, I did move around
14 Brcko and the suburban area of Brcko and that was all within the scope of
15 the work that I had to do.
16 Q. Can we take it, then, since you never mentioned anything in your
17 evidence, you certainly didn't see any evidence in your travels around
18 Brcko of any bomb damage anywhere?
19 A. No, I didn't see any bomb damage, if you're referring to the
20 occasion when these two planes flew over and when I heard the explosions.
21 I was in the vicinity, but I did not see any major damage. I saw damage
22 on some of the houses, some glass was shattered. I don't know whether
23 this was caused by the explosions that these two planes caused or maybe by
24 the previous explosions when the two bridges had been blown up.
25 Q. Thank you. Just returning, then, to the reference in the evidence
1 when -- which I quoted to you, you were asked by Mr. Milosevic who was
2 fighting who in Brcko and you said: "To tell you the truth, I don't
3 know." And I suggested to you that it was a confused situation which you
4 seemed reluctant to accept. You're still not prepared to accept that the
5 situation in Brcko in April 1992 and before that was confused?
6 A. I don't know. I don't know who shot at whom. That's what I said.
7 The question was confusing, so he must have received a confused answer.
8 All I can tell you is that I don't know who did the shooting and who was
9 shot at, and that's all I know, and that's the answer I gave him.
10 Q. You know, do you, that in the -- what are called the run-up to
11 April 1992, there was not just a question of Muslims and Serbs, but there
12 was also the question of incursions of army units from Croatia? That's
13 right, isn't it?
14 A. I don't know anything about that, sir. I don't know that.
15 Q. You don't know anything at all about that?
16 A. No, I don't. You can rest assured that I don't. And I can't tell
17 you anything about that. I don't know anything about that, 100 per cent.
18 Q. Do you know anything about an attack on a village of Sijekovac in
19 February 1992?
20 A. I don't know. I really don't know.
21 Q. Do you know anything about the taking over of the town of Odzak by
22 members of the Croatian army?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Do you know anything about members of the 106th Brigade of the
25 HVO, that's the Croatian Defence Council, it's translated as, who occupied
1 Orasje? You don't know about that?
2 A. No, I don't.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, on the first example you gave, you
4 indicated February 1992. The temporal context of the questions put by
5 Mr. Milosevic are clearly early May 1992. Could you, for the other
6 examples you just gave, also give a time indication.
7 MR. STEWART: Yes, certainly, Your Honour.
8 Q. In relation to Odzak, the time would be April, May, and June 1992.
9 I'm not able to give a specific date in relation to what I said in
10 relation to Orasje. And then -- well, apart from this, that I was coming
11 on then -- I think I hadn't got there yet. April 1992.
12 Q. Do you know anything about the occupation by Croat and Muslim
13 forces of municipalities of Bosanski Brod, Derventa, Modrica, Odzak, and
14 Orasje? Do you know anything about that?
15 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. My only objection is in
16 terms of relevance. I don't know how that pertains to Brcko or to the
17 credibility of this witness.
18 MR. STEWART: Well, it -- directly, Your Honour, because, after
19 all, a lot of the thrust of this witness's evidence is that he knew what
20 was going on. It's certainly relevant to explore the degree of knowledge
21 or ignorance of this particular witness in relation to events in the whole
22 vicinity in which the matters to which he gives evidence occurred. That's
23 the relevance.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's not spend too much time on it. It has
25 some relevance, because you're asking about the knowledge of the witness
1 on events in approximately the same time period, and in view of his answer
2 given in the Milosevic case, it has some relevance. But let's not spend
3 too much time on it. Please proceed.
4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I've finished.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You've finished.
6 MR. STEWART: So --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 MR. STEWART: -- or invitation, because I have finished. In fact,
9 I've finished my cross-examination altogether, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Is there any need to -- first of all, I'd like to ask my -- first
12 of all, I'd like to ask whether there's any need to re-examine the
14 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I had about three questions I wanted.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Three.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. I had about three questions I wanted to
18 ask him.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Re-examined by Mr. Hannis:
22 Q. Mr. Gasi, could you explain to the Court what you mean by "reserve
23 JNA uniforms" and the difference between JNA, TO, and police uniforms.
24 A. The reserve JNA uniforms were uniforms which were used up until
25 1992 in the JNA. I'm familiar with those. You were issued with a uniform
1 to have one at home. But when you were called up, you had to have the
2 same uniforms. That's what I know. The TO had similar uniforms in those
3 colours. They were practically the same. And if you were called up to
4 come to your enterprise, you had to come wearing a uniform, one of those
5 uniforms. I don't know about any other uniforms. That's it.
6 Q. Mr. Gasi, the second topic I wanted to discuss regarded your
7 statement to the Helsinki Commission. Did you see a B/C/S translation of
8 your statement?
9 A. No, I did not.
10 Q. Did you sign that statement?
11 A. No. I didn't have the opportunity to do so, and I wasn't asked to
12 do so by those people.
13 Q. And did you previously testify in the Milosevic case that you
14 thought there was a bad interpretation of your statements to the
16 A. I don't know whether this was a misunderstanding in the
17 interpretation, but those people were questioning me and I was telling
18 them how it was. I wasn't adding any numbers or augmenting the numbers.
19 What I saw, I told them. They also had interviews with other people who
20 were coming to Denmark. There are refugees from Brcko in Denmark. I
21 can't remember how long after that I received a letter with this alleged
22 interview that I gave to them. I received it in the English language, and
23 I couldn't make any corrections to that. I wish I could have done so, but
24 I wasn't able to.
25 Q. And finally, with regard to that note of interview concerning the
1 rallies: Had you ever seen that note before? It was page 29 of the
2 packet that Mr. Stewart showed you.
3 A. I saw that here for the first time.
4 Q. And you had not signed that statement?
5 A. As I said, how could I have signed it if I hadn't seen it.
6 Q. And the statement indicated that you attended several SDS rallies;
7 is that correct?
8 A. Yes, I did attend several. That's correct.
9 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
11 Mr. Stewart, is there anything that has arisen during
12 cross-examination that would cause you to put further questions to the
13 witness? And I perhaps clarify this: That if, in the answers during
14 cross-examination, something new comes up, then this Chamber will usually
15 allow you to put additional questions. Is there anything you'd --
16 MR. STEWART: There's nothing at the moment, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for you.
20 Questioned by the Court:
21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
22 [Interpretation] Sir, I would like to ask you to help me to
23 confirm for me, so that I can see whether I understood your testimony
24 properly. You stated that you had heard that you had seen a man who
25 executed prisoners. I'm quoting what you said in English, or rather, that
1 you heard the man say: "Thirty of them for one of mine." So you also
2 said, as part of your testimony, that you can tell the difference in
3 dialects, if I can put it like that, between Serbs and non-Serbs. So
4 could you please tell me - this is my first question - that man, did he
5 say that: "Thirty of them for one of mine"? And when he said that, did
6 he speak in any particular accent, or did he speak in a particular dialect
7 based on which you could conclude the ethnicity of that person?
8 A. I could not conclude what his ethnicity was. He was wearing a
9 camouflage uniform. I couldn't conclude that based on the cap and his
10 uniform. But he said: "Fuck their balija mothers, bre." So I don't
11 know. But I think it's very likely that he was a Serb from Serbia, because
12 they're the ones that use that word "bre." But I don't know. Perhaps he
13 could have been also a Bosnian Serb using that word "bre."
14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And what does "bre" mean?
15 A. Well, that's what they use when they speak. It doesn't mean
16 anything. They just add that at the end when they are speaking. Just
17 like in Bosnia we say "ba" they use the word "bre." It doesn't mean
18 anything. It's just something that is used. It's a colloquialism.
19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you for that
21 Now I would like to ask you another question. You said during
22 your testimony, or rather, you mentioned the fact that some officers came
23 to the Luka camp and that they wanted to find snipers there. When they
24 found out that there were two professional snipers there, they treated
25 those people well. So in your opinion, could you tell us why this was so.
1 How do you explain, how do you explain that conduct towards somebody who
2 happened to be snipers, who happened to be combatants, fighters?
3 A. No, they were not snipers. They used to take out those two people
4 every day and beat them up. One of them, Jovo, his name is Muhamed but we
5 called him Jovo, that man is still alive today. That man is retarded.
6 That man couldn't even walk properly. He couldn't orient himself around
7 town. And I don't understand why they called them, they nicknamed them,
8 Muslim snipers. They used to beat him up every day. His left arm was
9 broken. It was broken right here. He had injuries on his nose. The bone
10 was sticking through there. And at that moment, he had fly spit on that
11 wound. Maggots were coming out of that wound. They were beaten up every
12 day. No one could go up to him and to that other man Blek in the prison
13 just because they had this nickname attached to them: Muslim snipers.
14 They just found them down there at Kolobara and brought them in. They had
15 nothing to do with that. This JNA officer, this major who would come in
16 with two police officers, and he said loudly to Kosta: "If these two are
17 your Muslim snipers, fuck you. I wouldn't lose one single soldier here in
18 Brcko. You should bring a doctor so that they could treat them, he could
19 give them medical treatment, he could clean them up." That was it.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And could you please explain why,
21 why, how was it that they got this nickname? If you know. Please tell
22 us, if you know.
23 A. I really don't know. I have no idea. As far as they were
24 concerned I was a Muslim extremist myself. I cannot say, but they made me
25 out to be a Muslim extremist, a fundamentalist. That's how it was.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now I would like to
2 put my one-before-last question. It actually has to do with the first
3 one. It's about what you heard when you heard that person who was
4 executing people and who said that they would have to pay for each one of
5 mine who had fallen, thirty of them for each one of mine. At that point,
6 was there fighting underway already?
7 A. I know that I heard shooting when I was in my apartment, as well
8 as when I was at Elektro-Brcko. I heard loud shooting and I heard strong
9 explosions. Across from that place where I was in the
10 Elektrodistribucija, there were guns of the JNA, and they were firing. I
11 don't know who fought whom and where the fighting was going on. When I
12 was walking around the actual centre of town and I was walking also
13 towards the Mujkici local community, there was no fighting but they were
14 all there. The army was there. I saw two tanks near the medical centre.
15 That's when we went to fix the electricity there. They weren't firing. I
16 don't know who they were firing at. I don't know where this fighting was.
17 I didn't see anybody.
18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. If I understand you
19 correctly, you were present when weapons were being distributed, and you
20 believe that they were distributed to Serbs. On the other hand, the
21 opponents, who did the other side receive weapons from? Who provided the
22 weapons to the other side?
23 A. I don't know about the other side, because I didn't see anything.
24 Had I seen it, I would have told you about it.
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now let's talk about
1 the event when you were entrusted with throwing corpses into the river.
2 Do you remember that? Were these inmates from the Luka camp or were these
3 people who were killed in a different place?
4 A. I don't know that. Mostly they were in a pile after we had passed
5 the railway carriages, they were in a place that was flattened out, and
6 there was gravel there. I don't know if those bodies were brought there
7 or if they were killed in Luka. I just know that they were already there.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. You said that they
9 wore civilian clothing.
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Did you ever have the
12 opportunity to see -- well, actually, my question relates to the other
13 side. Were they in uniforms or were they wearing civilian clothes, in
14 your opinion?
15 A. You mean the dead people that I saw over there?
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, no, not the dead people.
17 But it was said that there was an exchange of fire. So in this exchange
18 of fire, you said that there were paramilitary forces, there was the army,
19 the JNA, or, namely, Serbs. But there was also the other side. We don't
20 know who this other side was. According to what you know, did the people
21 from the other side wear uniforms or not?
22 A. I don't know that. I don't know that.
23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] All right. So do you, then,
24 think that the bodies which you had to throw into the river, do you
25 believe that these were people who were killed during this exchange of
2 A. I cannot give you an answer to that question. I don't know. I
3 don't know.
4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. My last question
5 concerns your opinion. Since you explained to us in detail how you came
6 to be released, could you please tell us: Do you believe that the guards
7 who were at the camp were free to do as they wished, or was there -- or
8 were they actually just carrying out orders, in a fashion? Were they
9 allowed to bring anybody they wanted there and could they release anybody
10 they wanted to, or was there some kind of authority, some kind of power
11 who said: Well, this man should be freed, and this man should be
13 A. Let me tell you. On one occasion when Kosta, this Kole, took me
14 out to come to his office, after this interview, when he asked me about
15 these names and when he gave me the names, and as I was leaving his
16 office, at the door there was a piece of paper of A4 format. It was
17 typed. That nobody was allowed to enter the camp. Nobody was allowed to
18 enter the hangar without the supervision of the commander, Kosta, Kole,
19 and that inmates were not permitted to be eliminated without his
20 permission. And this was signed by the commander of the Luka camp,
21 Kosta Simeunovic, Kole. Well, I don't know how the actual organisation
22 worked. I cannot tell you that. I don't know that. But I was taken out.
23 I was freed, upon the orders of Captain Dragan. That's how it was. I
24 don't know anything else.
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And this Captain Dragan, what
1 was his function?
2 A. When I met him that time in Zvornik, he was their commander - I
3 guess, I don't know - of these Special Forces, these Red Berets. He was
4 wearing a civilian uniform. Everybody referred to him as "boss."
5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. [In English]
6 And thank you, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I have one question for you. You told us yesterday
8 that you brought your wife and daughter to Bijeljina and that a friend had
9 come from Belgrade. Did you accompany them to Belgrade or did you return
10 to Brcko and left wife and your daughter in the hands of your friend?
11 A. Your Honour, I came back to Brcko.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So you did not accompany them to Belgrade?
13 A. No, I did not.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gasi, this concludes your evidence, unless the
15 questions of the Judges would raise any issue on which the parties would
16 consider that they have to put additional questions.
17 MR. HANNIS: None for me, Your Honour. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.
19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'd just like to ask:
20 Further cross-examination by Mr. Stewart:
21 Q. You said, Mr. Gasi, that "Nobody was allowed to enter the camp,
22 nobody was allowed to enter the hangar, without the supervision of the
23 commander, and that inmates were not permitted to be eliminated without
24 his permission and this was signed by the commander of the Luka camp.
25 Well, I don't know how the actual organisation works. I cannot tell you
2 Mr. Gasi, it's unreal what you just said, isn't it, to suppose
3 that you, as a detainee in this camp, had any knowledge at all of
4 procedures such as what documents needed to be signed in order actually to
5 authorise a detainee's release?
6 A. I didn't say that. I answered to the question of the Judge. What
7 was standing next to the door when I was leaving Kosta's office. But they
8 came into the hangar with or without Kosta. They didn't kill anybody at
9 the hangar when I was there but they did beat people up. I don't know as
10 far as whether they were respecting orders or not, and I don't know what
11 the mechanism was behind the scenes. I don't know that either.
12 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This, Mr. Gasi, concludes your evidence in this
14 Court. The Chamber would like to thank you for having come and for having
15 answered questions of both parties and of the Bench. It's important for
16 this Court to hear the evidence given by those who have been present at
17 that time in the area. Thank you very much. You're excused.
18 Mr. Usher, could you please --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE ORIE: As far as exhibits are concerned --
23 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: As far as exhibits are concerned, first of all, the
25 two Defence exhibits, it's not yet on the record what number they are.
1 And, Madam Registrar, could you guide us?
2 THE REGISTRAR: The first Defence exhibit is the bundle of
3 documents, 30 pages, will be exhibit D1, and the second exhibit, the
4 English witness statement of Isak Gasi D2, and the B/C/S translation will
5 be D2.1.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to ask the Defence whether in D1, whether it
7 would include the pages 26445 that would then - yes - that would then be
8 page 2A in your numbering, and 26446 as page 2B, and then we continue page
9 3, the hand numbering on the bottom of the page.
10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm sure that would be the most
11 convenient way of doing it, yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then D1, therefore, now counts two more pages than it
13 initially had.
14 I didn't hear any objections during the presentation of this
15 evidence, so I take it that they can be admitted into evidence.
16 MR. HANNIS: No objections.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Same true for the Defence, I take it. Then all
18 the exhibits we'll not mention them all again, but that's from P1,
19 Madam Registrar, until P25, and D1 up until D2.1, admitted into evidence.
20 Before we have a break, I've got -- we've got two minutes left.
21 I'd like to make two short observations. First of all, as far as the
22 efficiency of the examination is concerned. I wonder whether the question
23 whether finally the coffee was brewed and drunk or not really had to take
24 three minutes, whether we could not get better control in order to save
25 time, and perhaps the same -- of course, the Chamber is not aware of the
1 relevance of these details, but up until now, the relevance of these
2 details have not become completely apparent to the Chamber. The same, for
3 example, would be true for stopping at the gas station and stopping at the
4 border. Unless, of course, there would be some specific issue in it. But
5 the Chamber is not aware of that. That's one observation.
6 The second observation is for the Defence. The Defence did not
7 give Mr. Gasi much time to verify whether paragraphs 2 and 3 of his
8 Copenhagen statement would be in line with the testimony he had given in
9 the court. As a matter of fact, it was entirely unclear to me from the
10 transcript of yesterday whether, and the witness clarified the matter,
11 whether he brought his wife up to Belgrade, or only accompanied her to
12 Bijeljina. A similar question mark could be put by the statement of
13 Copenhagen, and therefore, I was a bit concerned that where the initial
14 evidence was not clear in every -- on every issue, and if the same was
15 true for the Copenhagen statement, that there is a risk that we get an
16 answer that it's all confirmed where I saw at first already some possible,
17 perhaps not very relevant, points where the statements and the testimony
18 given yesterday were not fully concurrent and I'd like to urge the parties
19 to be very cautious in that respect.
20 We adjourn until 10 minutes to 5.00 -- to 6.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 5.30 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 5.59 p.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Harmon.
24 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, let me introduce to the Chamber
25 Ms. Magda Karagiannakis, from the Office of the Prosecutor, who will be
1 leading the evidence of the next witness.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether I will be able to
3 pronounce your name as smoothly as Mr. Harmon does, but I'll try to do my
4 best, Ms. Karagiannakis. Yes. Your next witness, Ms. Karagiannakis,
5 protective measures in place are?
6 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: We informed -- as we previously informed Your
7 Honour in our filing of the 22nd of January, this witness has previously
8 testified, and the measures that were imposed in that case were the use of
9 a pseudonym and image distortion.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: And pursuant to 75(F) of the Rules, we
12 understand that those are still in place.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, they're still in place. And we use the same
14 pseudonym or do we use a different pseudonym? Oh, yes. We have -- the
15 pseudonyms are the numbers, say to the KRAJ-224. Would that be --
16 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's a little bit more difficult to pronounce than
18 just a letter, but -- and facial distortion. That means that when the
19 witness enters the courtroom, the blinds should be all down.
20 Mr. Usher, would you please pull the blinds down. We'll wait
21 until the witness is led into the courtroom. I take it that the first
22 thing you'll do is to present the name sheet.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the curtains can now be lifted again.
25 We'd rather do that first.
1 Witness, I'll just explain to you: Your face will not be visible,
2 and we'll not mention your name. We'll call you "Witness 224" in the
3 Krajisnik case. The screen will even not enable the persons in the public
4 gallery to see your face, and it will not be visible on the television
5 screens either.
6 Before giving evidence in this Court, the Rules of Procedure and
7 Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration, and I see that the text
8 has already been handed out to you by the usher. May I invite you to make
9 that solemn declaration.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes. [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I
11 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: WITNESS KRAJ-224
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated. You'll first
15 be examined by Ms. Karagiannakis, counsel for the Prosecution.
16 Ms. Karagiannakis, please proceed.
17 Examined by Ms. Karagiannakis:
18 Q. Witness, you're going to be handed a piece of paper shortly. It's
19 got your name on it. Please don't read out what's on the sheet of paper,
20 but can you please confirm that this is indeed your name?
21 A. [In English] Yes, that's correct.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be Exhibit --?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P26, under seal.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 Please proceed.
1 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:
2 Q. Now, Witness, I'm going to ask you --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Prosecution, please.
4 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:
5 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions, and in English, and they'll
6 be translated into B/C/S, and that's what you'll hear coming through your
7 earphones. And when you answer in B/C/S, I will then receive and the
8 Court will receive an English translation. So I would ask you to take a
9 break or a pause between my question to you and your answer back to me,
10 and the Court, so that we don't have any unclarity on the transcript.
11 Also, if at any time during the course of my examination you feel
12 the need to take a break, please don't hesitate to say so.
13 Now, what was your nationality before the war in 1992?
14 A. [Interpretation] I'm a Muslim.
15 Q. Where were you living?
16 A. In Brcko.
17 Q. With whom did you live before the war? Please don't mention any
19 A. With my family, with my husband.
20 Q. Did you have any children?
21 A. Yes. I have two children.
22 Q. How old were they in 1992?
23 A. 12 and 9.
24 Q. And where were your children immediately before the outbreak of
25 war in Brcko?
1 A. Immediately before the war in Brcko, the school was out. My
2 brother came to visit, and my brother took my children to Stirac [phoen].
3 We were reckoning we would join them and collect our children from there.
4 This is what we used to do every year. My brother would take the
5 children, the children would be down there during the summer, and then
6 when we were given our annual leaves, we would go there for two or three
7 weeks and then we would collect our children and take them back home.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Karagiannakis, in order to have -- to make the
15 protective measures as effective as possible, it's sometimes preferable to
16 ask questions of the background in private session.
17 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether you have any further questions
19 to that. Madam Registrar, could you please prepare a redaction for page
20 77, lines 4 up until 9.
21 And if you have any further questions, we could turn into private
22 session; if not, we'll continue in open session. Please proceed.
23 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: I won't ask any further background questions,
24 Your Honour.
25 Q. Now, when did the war start in Brcko?
1 A. Officially, I can't give you the exact date. The only indication
2 I can give you is what it was like on the day when the bridges were blown
3 up. I had to go to work. I was woken up by an explosion. I went to
4 work. I was wondering what was going on. I didn't know that the bridge
5 had been blown up. I tried to find out what had happened. I only heard
6 this explosion.
7 Q. When did you hear -- approximately what time did you hear this
9 A. Early in the morning, before I was about to leave for work.
10 Q. Did you hear later that day what had happened to the bridges?
11 A. When I arrived at work at 7.00, people were asking what had
12 happened. They wanted to know what the explosion was. And then other
13 workers who came from the direction of the town told us that it was either
14 one or two bridges that had been blown up. I don't remember. I only know
15 that there had been an explosion and that the bridge that was used for
16 passenger traffic had been blown up.
17 Q. Now, what time did you arrive for work that morning?
18 A. A little before 7.00.
19 Q. And what time was your shift due to finish that day?
20 A. 1900 hours.
21 Q. Did you notice anything unusual when you arrived for work that
23 A. I noticed that a lot of people didn't turn up for work to take
24 over the next shift. It was before the May holiday, and a lot of patients
25 would normally be discharged over the holiday, because people wanted to
1 spend their holidays with the family. So that was not unusual. However,
2 it was unusual to see that half of the personnel did not turn up for work.
3 For example, the person who was supposed to relieve me didn't show up.
4 Q. What was the ethnicity of the people that didn't show up to work
5 that day?
6 A. Most of them were Serbs.
7 Q. You mentioned that the person that was meant to relieve you at the
8 end of your shift didn't come. What did you do when they didn't arrive?
9 A. I felt duty-bound to stay. I couldn't leave my patients
10 unattended. I felt obliged to stay on and to keep on working.
11 Q. What time did the following shift end?
12 A. It was 7.00 on the following morning.
6 A. This discomfort and tension grew, we felt isolated. There was a
7 feeling of fear and discomfort. The doctors then decided for all of us to
8 shift into the new wing of the hospital, on the ground floor, again to
9 make things safer for the patients.
10 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: At this point, could the witness please be
11 shown premarked Exhibit 38.099, and could the registrar please assign an
12 exhibit number to that.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P27.
14 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:
15 Q. Can you see that photo on your screen, Witness?
16 A. Yes. That is the entrance to the general hospital, the Brcko
17 hospital. The building you can see in the back is the new wing. That is
18 the building where we moved to. It was very hard for me at the beginning
19 to recognise this building because the gate was freshly painted, the fence
20 was freshly painted. There were no signs on the top of the building. The
21 signs, if there were any, were in the Latinic script, so at first it took
22 me a while to recognise this building. However, this is the gate that I
23 used to go through every day when I came to work. However, I can confirm
24 that this is the building of the hospital.
25 Q. Can I ask you: You mentioned the signs were in Latin script.
1 What sign do you see there on that picture? What script?
2 A. This is now the Cyrillic script --
3 MS. LOUKAS: [Previous translation continues] ... In relation to
4 this. I don't know that we need to, for the purposes of the witness's
5 evidence, go into this sort of detail as to the gate to the hospital. I
6 don't think that's the substance of her evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Karagiannakis.
8 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: I'm simply seeking to establish the record as
9 to exactly what the gate looked like, and the fact that this picture is
10 different to it, so we can have absolute accuracy in the transcript.
11 However, if Your Honours want me to move on, I can do so.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Is the gate of any specific importance at a later
14 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: No. But what you can -- no. I'll move on,
15 Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so. And may I also remind you that I
17 just am about to sign another redaction. We have to take the protective
18 measures very seriously. And if we enter into the building and exactly
19 the part of the building, then of course, and if the distinction is made
20 between certain categories of people working in that building, then
21 finally it's not very effective any more. Please proceed.
22 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:
23 Q. Did people come through that gate into the hospital building that
25 A. Civilians came from the surrounding houses. They were also
1 scared. They were looking for a shelter. Our shelter was in the
3 Q. Do you remember how many civilians came?
4 A. I can't remember exactly. They came from different directions,
5 from Mujkici, from Raja. They entered from all directions. I didn't
6 count them. And they entered through different gates. There was a room
7 full of civilians at the end of the day. That's what I saw finally, a
8 room full of civilians who had all come to seek shelter. There may have
9 been some 40 or 50 people all together.
10 THE INTERPRETER: May the witness's microphone -- the other
11 microphone be switched on, please.
12 A. There were men.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please switch on the other
14 microphone of the witness as well.
15 Yes, please proceed.
16 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:
17 Q. You were describing the civilians in the basement. Can you please
19 A. Yes. In the meantime, there were two or three cases, as far as I
20 can remember. I was called to tend to some civilians who had been shot
21 at. There was a young man called Damir, who was around 20. His leg was
22 bleeding heavily. He had to undergo an urgent surgery. His leg had to be
23 amputated in order to save his life.
24 There was another man, an elderly man, around 50, who was shot in
25 the spine. He was in a coma. And he died within the space of one or two
1 days. He succumbed to his wounds.
2 Q. Was that that first day when all the civilians came into the
3 basement that you treated these people?
4 A. People kept on coming. The hospital is rather big. I was in one
5 place, so I couldn't see every single individual, but I did notice them
6 coming. In the area where I was working, I could see people coming
7 through the corridors.
8 Q. You mentioned two people, Damir and Lutvo. Do you know what
9 ethnicity Damir was?
10 A. Damir was a Muslim.
11 Q. How did you know that?
12 A. I knew it from his first and last names.
13 Q. Do you know how he came to be hurt?
14 A. He was in a street and he was shot by a sniper shooter. That's
15 what he told us. And the bullet hit his largest artery, the femoral
16 artery, in his leg.
17 Q. The second man, Lutvo, do you know what ethnicity -- what was his
19 A. He was also a Muslim.
20 Q. How do you know that?
21 A. Again, I knew his name. I knew his family. I knew him from
22 before. He was the manager of a furniture store.
23 Q. How did he come to be hurt?
24 A. The nurse who took his data told me that he was still conscious.
25 He was standing in front of his house door. He was going to lock his
1 door --
2 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I realise that hearsay
3 is acceptable in this Tribunal, but this is in the nature of secondhand
4 hearsay rather than firsthand hearsay. What she heard from the nurse that
5 the man told the nurse.
6 JUDGE ORIE: As you know, usually this Chamber and the Tribunal
7 will pay proper attention to reliability in the evaluation of the
8 evidence, rather than to stop witnesses to testify about it. The
9 objection is denied.
10 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:
12 Q. What did the civilians who were coming into the hospital tell you
13 about what was going on in the town?
14 A. They told us that the Serbian army had entered the town, that they
15 spread all over the town, that they were looting, entering the bank,
16 taking things from the house, all the valuables, whatever they could lay
17 their hands on.
18 Q. I'm sorry, Witness. I didn't ask you -- I didn't let you finish
19 your answer about what had happened to Lutvo. Can you please describe how
20 he came to have his injuries.
21 A. Whenever a patient is admitted, his data is taken, his medical
22 history. The nurse asked me to help her. She had a lot of patients. And
23 she told me that he had been shot at in front of his house door. He was
24 leaving the house. He was going to lock his door, and that's how he was
25 hit in the lumbar part of his back.
1 When I went to see him, he was in a coma. He was no longer
2 conscious. And two days later, he died.
3 Q. What happened the day after the civilians were coming into
4 the -- came into the hospital? What happened the next day?
5 A. We heard information, we heard shots, we heard shelling. I worked
6 in the middle of the building. I could hear shots and explosions. I
7 didn't know what was going on. I just felt and heard shots. I guessed
8 that there must have been fighting going on.
9 Q. Did anybody else arrive at the hospital?
10 A. [In English] I want to ask if it's 3rd -- I get lost a little bit,
11 3rd or 4th.
12 Q. The day after you treated Lutvo and Damir, did anybody come into
13 the hospital?
14 A. Can you help me and -- help me to remember whether it was on the
15 3rd or on the 4th of May? Can you help me and refresh my memory?
16 Q. I'll just --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Karagiannakis, could you please -- you see that
18 on page 85, line 7, that the answer could not be understood. Could you
19 please repeat your question that appears in page 85, line 6.
20 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:
21 Q. Did anybody else arrive at the hospital?
22 A. The 4th of July -- on the 4th of July, in the afternoon, when the
23 fighting -- we could hear that the fighting was coming closer and closer
24 to the hospital. In the afternoon on the 4th of July, a group of six or
25 seven soldiers came in. I recognised one of those soldiers. It was
1 Dusko Tadic. He was our employee. He worked as a porter at the hospital.
2 I did not recognise the other worker because he had a mask on his face.
3 His face was painted. He had a black cap, so I didn't recognise him. I
4 recognised Dusko Tadic by his voice. We had been working there for years.
5 And the second name, when Dusko Tadic called this second person,
6 when he called him on the walkie-talkie, I found out that his name was
7 Bozo. And when Bozo replied, responded, I saw that Bozo spoke in a
8 Serbian accent.
9 Q. Now, you mentioned the 4th of July. Are you certain that that is
10 the month that the bridges were blown up?
11 A. 4th of July? Did I say the 4th of July? No. The 4th of May.
12 I'm sorry. I apologise.
13 Q. So soldiers came into the hospital.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How many soldiers came into the hospital?
16 A. About six or seven came through the main entrance, and they came
17 in so quickly. I was waiting -- I was standing in the corridor. They
18 just looked at me for a moment, and then they split up, going to one side
19 and the other side, in order to check the wards, to check the floor. On
20 the left side was Bozo and on the right side Dusko Tadic went to check
21 that other side of the first floor.
22 Q. Can you describe what they were wearing?
23 A. Bozo was wearing a uniform, a camouflage uniform, with leaves. It
24 was of olive colour.
25 Q. What were the other soldiers wearing?
1 A. The same uniform.
2 Q. Were they carrying anything?
3 A. Yes. Weapons. They had automatic rifles. Each one of them had a
4 radio. They were constantly communicating throughout the hospital. You
5 could hear the sound of the walkie-talkies.
6 Q. Who appeared to be the leader?
7 A. In my opinion - and it's only my opinion - since Dusko Tadic
8 worked at the hospital, he knew every room, so he was the one who gave
9 instructions, because he was talking to all of the soldiers all the time
10 and you could hear the conversations: Where they should go, to what part
11 of the premises. In that section where I was helping, where the people
12 were who had been wounded from firearms, he just -- Bozo just came through
13 that part quickly in order to check who was in the hospital, for their
14 safety. So they just quickly looked through the corridors and went on.
15 Q. What happened after they searched the hospital?
16 A. When they searched the hospital, they again met up in the
17 corridor. They talked some more again amongst themselves, in the middle,
18 where the elevators were. Then they went out. And then, after a little
19 while, they began to bring in weapons. First they brought in some kind of
20 cannon with a long barrel, which I saw for the first time. I just noticed
21 that the barrel was very long. They also brought in some cases, some
22 closed wooden cases. They brought that into the elevator and went up
23 towards the roof.
24 Q. What happened after that?
25 A. Not a long time after that, you could hear explosions from the
1 roof. The building was shaking and you could sense that there was firing
2 from the top of the hospital. There was constant firing. You could sense
3 the constant explosions. The walls kept shaking all the time.
4 Q. Did anybody else arrive after that at the hospital?
5 A. Later, yes, another group of soldiers came in camouflage uniforms.
6 They were led by a person who introduced himself as Mauzer, and he ordered
7 his soldiers to go to all the wards, to order all the staff to assemble
8 together and to go to the restaurant, the hospital cafeteria, where we
9 spent our breaks and had our meals, that we should all assemble there,
10 that that was the central place where a meeting was to be held.
11 Q. Had you ever seen Mauzer -- the man who identified himself as
12 Mauzer before?
13 A. No. No.
14 Q. So how did you know he was Mauzer?
15 A. He introduced himself. He introduced himself.
16 Q. You said that you were asked -- ordered to go to the cafeteria.
17 What happened then?
18 A. He ordered us to line up from the door. It was the men first; the
19 doctors, then the rest of the medical staff. There were some technicians.
20 And then finally a few women doctors and some female nurses. So we stood
21 there in a semicircle and he stood in the middle.
22 Q. When you say "he," who do you mean?
23 A. I'm thinking of Mauzer.
24 Q. Do you know what ethnicity Mauzer was?
25 A. Yes. He said his name was Mauzer and that he is from Bijeljina.
1 He even said that he was a social worker. And he said that he -- that
2 this was the territory that he is occupying, that he is responsible for
3 that, and that nothing should be done without his knowledge; and if
4 anything was done without his knowledge, that he would execute us.
5 That was a kind of meeting. He issued us instructions that we
6 should be very careful what we were doing, that we were under his control,
7 and that we should not do anything without his control, anything that he
8 didn't like. I don't know what he meant. And that we would be punished
9 if that were to happen.
10 Q. What did Mauzer do, if anything, after that?
11 A. Yes. Then he started questioning people, and then it just
12 happened that there was Dr. Popovic there. He's a man from Belgrade.
13 He's a well-known surgeon. Everybody respected him. He asked him what
14 his name was. He said his name was Petar Popovic, Cedomir. Then he
15 started to get angry: How come that he was there amongst us? Why didn't
16 he leave? Why did he stay to work with the Muslims and the Croats?
17 Something to that effect. He said: "You've betrayed us. You don't want
18 to belong to your own people."
19 Then he slapped him sharply on his cheeks, in such an ugly way
20 that he was -- he broke out in a sweat. His cheeks swelled up. He just
21 didn't know what to make of all of that. He was confused. He was lost.
22 Q. What ethnicity was Popovic?
23 A. He was born in Serbia, from Belgrade, and he spoke in the Ekavian
24 dialect. We all knew that. Nobody was bothered by that. He was a very
25 good person. I also respected him as a nurse. He was of Serbian
1 ethnicity, but nobody minded that.
2 Q. What happened after that?
3 A. After that, he went down the line, questioning the next doctor:
4 What was his name. And then he also slapped more people. He was angry.
5 He wanted to show his strength. And this fear -- he wanted to show how
6 strong he was, and he went from one person to another and slapped those
7 people. These were -- this was not a punch, like in a boxing match, but
8 they were powerful slaps, so that each person's cheeks swelled up.
9 Q. Do you remember the names of the people that were slapped?
10 Please, don't mention the names. Just tell me if you do remember them.
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. What were the ethnicity of the people that were slapped?
13 A. There was one Croat, and the rest were Muslims.
14 Q. And what happened after that?
15 A. After that, he said that we had to be very careful about what we
16 did. He did not want to repeat his instructions again. And now we could
17 go back to work. So we went back to work to carry on as we were before
18 they came.
19 Q. After you went back to work, were you given any other instructions
20 by any other person?
21 A. Yes. I forgot that. He said: Since the glass was shattered from
22 the explosions, he said that the hospital had to be cleaned, completely
23 cleaned, and he charged the staff to go through the wards, to clean up the
24 glass, and to prepare everything, because some vojvoda, an important
25 person was coming and the hospital had to be cleaned and ready to welcome
2 Q. When you say "vojvoda," what do you understand that to mean?
3 A. It's a high rank. I don't know myself. Vojvoda. It's a high
4 rank. There were colonels in the Yugoslav People's Army. Vojvoda was a
5 term that was used before the war, for people who belonged to the Chetnik
6 groups, before the war.
7 Q. Can you tell us -- tell the Judges what happened that evening.
8 A. Yes. We went back to our workplaces. We started to clean the
9 glass. We distributed -- we went to all the different wards. We split
10 them up amongst ourselves. We didn't even finish everything when a
11 soldier came, and he asked for me. He said: "Who is this person?" I
12 said: "It's me." He said: "Madam, will you come with me." So I went
13 with him. I was just walking a little bit behind him so that I would know
14 where we were going. He was actually taking us directly to the basement,
15 where I saw, in the corridor in front of the sterilisation room, three
16 other persons who were also waiting there.
17 Q. Without mentioning their names, can you tell us whether you knew
18 those other persons?
19 A. Yes. They were hospital employees.
20 Q. And what was their ethnicity?
21 A. They were Muslims.
22 Q. And to your knowledge -- first of all, were you in any way
23 involved in any military activities?
24 A. All of my life, I considered myself to be a medical worker. I
25 didn't understand much about politics. I wasn't interested in politics
1 then. I'm not interested in it now. I was a family person. I went to my
2 work. My whole life was split between my work and my family. So I did
3 not have any political leanings or tendencies, and I did not have any
4 religious leanings. I understand that I was of the Muslim faith, but I
5 never minded who was of what faith. I respected each patient who came to
6 me. For me, they were all the same. I viewed all the people in the same
7 way. I did that before, and I do that still today.
8 Q. The other three people that you met with in the basement, do you
9 know whether any of them were involved in any military activities?
10 A. As far as I know, I don't know. I don't know whether they were or
11 not. I know that they used to come to work regularly. They used to do
12 their work. I know that. After work hours, I don't know what anybody
13 else did.
14 Q. Now, this soldier who took you to the basement, what was he
16 A. It was also a uniform with -- the soldiers who were standing
17 around guarding those three persons also wore olive uniforms covered with
18 leaves, as if it was camouflage.
19 Q. Now, after you were all together, what happened then?
20 A. They just told us to go with them. They lined us up. One of them
21 was in front, one of them was at the back, and they took us outside to a
22 van, to some kind of vehicle. I don't know what kind. And we just sat in
23 the back.
24 Q. Where were you taken?
25 A. In the back, when we sat down inside, there were four soldiers
1 there already, dressed in black. They had a lot of weapons on them. They
2 were shaved on the sides and at the top they had long hair. They looked
3 strange. The uniform they had was completely black. They were sitting
4 together with us in the back. There was the driver. And we set off.
5 There was no conversation at all until they brought us to the place that
6 they meant to bring us to.
7 Q. What was the place that they meant to bring you to?
8 A. They brought us inside through a gate, to the Luka, which I knew
9 of as a warehouse, although I had never been inside before the war. I
10 didn't know what it looked like. I just knew that it was a place, that it
11 was some kind of warehouse, and that it was called Luka.
12 Q. Now, in between the hospital and arriving at Luka, what route did
13 you take?
14 A. Yes. We took the regular road through the town. I looked outside
15 the window. I looked through the window, because we had all -- we were
16 all speechless. In a way, we were frozen. We went through that -- all
17 that was happening in that way. We were beginning to feel fear. We were
18 shaking. Nobody was saying anything. We just looked through the window
19 as we were passing through the town. It was an even greater shock to see
20 the destruction in the town, glass everywhere. Four or five people were
21 lying on the ground. Not in a group, but as we were driving past, you
22 would see one body lying on the sidewalks as we were driving by. They
23 were just lying there. Then we were gripped by an even greater fear. So
24 not one word was uttered in that van, until we got to Luka.
25 Q. Were you able to see what the -- how the bodies on the ground were
2 A. Yes. They were civilians. They were civilians.
3 Q. How do you know they were civilians?
4 A. You could see the jeans, sweaters, T-shirt, trainers, shoes.
5 Q. Now, you say you arrived at Luka. What was the date of your
6 arrival at Luka?
7 A. The 4th of May. It was already twilight. Night was falling.
8 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: If at this stage the witness can be shown --
9 JUDGE ORIE: May I just intervene and ask one short question to
10 the witness.
11 You said that you saw four or five people lying on the ground.
12 Were these people alive or were they dead?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not moving. They lay
14 still. As the car was driving past and as we looked, that person did not
15 move. The persons remained in the same position still, as if they were
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Please proceed.
19 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: If the witness can be shown premarked Exhibit
20 38.071. If that can be given an exhibit number.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P28.
22 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:
23 Q. If you can, can you tell us what that picture shows?
24 A. It's Luka, Luka, where we were brought.
25 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: And can the witness be shown Prosecution
1 Exhibit 15, which is premarked Exhibit 38.083.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P29.
3 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: I think that photo was shown to the previous
4 witness and was marked with the --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's correct.
6 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: -- The number P15.
7 Q. If you can, can you tell us what that picture shows.
8 A. It depicts Luka and the gate, as well as the office building on
9 the right side. Just one moment, please. On the left side was the
10 hangar, and on the right side were the offices. As you come in through
11 the entrance, on the right side were the offices, and the hangar was on
12 the left side.
13 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS:
14 Q. What happened to you when you arrived at Luka?
15 A. They told us -- they brought us into a room, these four soldiers.
16 They went off somewhere. There was a police officer inside, in a
17 light-blue shirt and darker trousers. I know from before that this is a
18 police uniform. The man got up. He stood up from the chair and he was
19 there inside. He was very kind. He asked us to sit down. He offered us
20 something to drink, and he just told us: "Please don't be afraid. This
21 is just a formal questioning. Relax. You have no reason to be worried."
22 He was really kind and he was trying to convince us that this was
23 just a mere formality, that it was just a formality for questioning. He
24 brought some people coffee and juice, whatever we wanted. He made sure we
25 had something to drink. But the person who was -- until the person who
1 was supposed to do the interrogating came, he wanted us to just take a
2 little rest.
3 Q. Can I stop you there?
4 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: And can the witness please be shown premarked
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Karagiannakis, would you please keep in mind that
7 we have to stop in a couple of minutes. So if you find a suitable
8 moment -- I don't know how many questions you have on this exhibit, but
9 would you please keep that in mind.
10 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Your Honour, we can break now, because there
11 are a series of questions that flow from this.
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise. I had to deal with some technical
15 Witness 224, it's close to 7.00. We'll stop and we'll continue
16 tomorrow, in the afternoon, at a quarter past 2.00. The usher will escort
17 you out of the courtroom, and then we expect you to come back tomorrow.
18 But may I instruct you not to speak with anyone about the testimony you
19 have given, or on issues you might be asked about tomorrow.
20 And please, Mr. Usher, would you escort the witness out of the
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I understand.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Just wait for one second until the curtains are down.
24 Would one side be enough? The witness will -- no. No. We have
25 to wait.
1 Meanwhile, I'd like to make a very few observations.
2 Ms. Karagiannakis, sometimes the evidence is a bit repetitious compared to
3 what we've heard already. For example, showing the P15, which by mistake
4 I think is announced as P29, but that's the photo already shown, did not
5 appear to be a very contentious issue that this is the camp and where the
6 hangars are. So therefore, it still takes almost two minutes to get that,
7 and I don't know whether an aerial picture adds very much, unless, of
8 course, at a later stage you have some specific questions in relation to
9 that. Similarly, you asked twice how many soldiers came into the hospital.
10 You asked, where the witness already said that Mauzer introduced himself
11 under this name, you asked then -- could we try to be just as efficient as
12 possible, leave out details. For example, I don't know whether all the
13 details of the arrest and the place where the witness worked were of that
14 importance, I think, for the Chamber, but of course unless it will turn
15 out to be otherwise. Most important is that she was arrested by what kind
16 of people and where she was brought. It's not up to the Chamber to say
17 what details are of importance or are not of importance, but for that
18 reason the Chamber urges the parties to keep that clearly in mind. Yes.
19 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour.
20 [The witness stands down]
21 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, same
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.
24 to be reconvened on Friday, the 6th day of February
25 2004, at 2.15 p.m.