1 Thursday, 19 February 2004
2 (Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case Number IT-00-39-T, The Prosecutor versus
7 Momcilo Krajisnik.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Good afternoon to everyone. Mr. Stewart, is the Defence ready to
10 continue its cross-examination of the witness Deronjic? Yes, then, the
11 witness may be brought into the courtroom.
12 Mr. Harmon.
13 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, at the conclusion of yesterday's
14 session, Your Honours asked about a specific minute and whether it was
15 already in evidence, and I can inform Your Honours that it is -- the
16 minute that is referred to by Mr. Deronjic is found in Prosecution
17 Exhibit 39. I have prepared extra copies of Prosecution Exhibit 39 which
18 can be distributed to you, and you will find reference to that particular
19 meeting of the municipal board that was held in Kravica on the 22nd of
20 January 1992 on page 13 of the exhibit.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's part of the book.
23 MR. HARMON: Yes, that's correct.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now I feel a bit less ashamed of myself not to
25 know exactly what is in the book as a whole.
1 MR. HARMON: But the reference is on page 13.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
3 Mr. Deronjic, I apologise for not -- doing something else when you
4 entered the courtroom. Please be seated. It might sound familiar already
5 to you, but nevertheless I would remind you that you're still bound by the
6 solemn declaration that you made at the beginning of your testimony, and
7 you certainly will remind my words spoken at that very moment.
8 Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
9 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 WITNESS: MIROSLAV DERONJIC [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]
13 Q. Mr. Deronjic, good afternoon. You told the Chamber yesterday that
14 in Bratunac, you had adapted Variant B because you weren't able strictly
15 to follow the instructions set out.
16 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Stewart. Yes, that's correct, that's what I
18 Q. And you also said that you decided to maintain contacts with
19 Muslim representatives.
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. Was Mr. Zekic aware of the maintenance of those contacts?
22 A. Yes, he did -- he was.
23 Q. And did he raise any objection?
24 A. No, we completely disagreed about it. I can just say that he did
25 not apply Variant A and B in Srebrenica at all, and I think that the
1 reason for that was that there wasn't an adequate number of Serbs in the
2 joint organs of authority, and he felt that this should not be done. I
3 was able to discuss this with him, and he simply did not interfere in what
4 we were doing and how we were doing things in Bratunac. He's a man whom I
5 know well, and he's not very systematic in his work, if I can put it that
7 Q. Now moving to a different topic, then, you -- in your evidence
8 earlier in this hearing, you said that in the course of the summer in
9 which you were talking about, 1991, you said that there was some
10 activities which you implemented and that was the arming of the people.
11 And you said that a large number of the population at the time on one side
12 and the other were armed. Those were your words.
13 First of all, when you talk about one side and the other, can we
14 be clear who it is you're talking about?
15 A. Yes. When I said that a large number of the population was armed,
16 including one side and the other, I was thinking of the Serbs in Bratunac
17 and the Muslims in Bratunac.
18 Q. And in 1991, in the summer, are you able to give any indication of
19 the relative scale of arms bearing by the two sides, Serbs and Muslims?
20 A. I could tell you what I know. Of course, I don't know precisely
21 the number of Serbs who were armed, and it's hard to say to what extent
22 the Muslims were armed. However, some events from that period, or rather
23 clashes practically open conflicts, even though a slightly milder term
24 could be unrest in Bratunac caused by various political developments
25 stirred up the ethnic tensions or national tensions in the municipalities
1 so that at one point in unrest developed into open conflict, including two
2 killings. From late August until the late fall and the beginning of the
3 winter of 1991, 1992, the town was practically under barricades, and it
4 was very difficult to control the situation in the field. It was
5 difficult for the police to do so.
6 I will mention that at one point, because of the killing of two
7 Muslims in Kravica, Bratunac was visited by top representatives of the
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities. Mr. Koljevic came to Bratunac
9 representing the Serb side. Mr. Ostojic on behalf of the SDS, and Mr.
10 Ejup Ganic. I think he was at the time he was the vice-president or
11 something. But anyway, he was one of the key figures in the SDA. And
12 Mr. --
13 Q. Can we just pause a second, Mr. Deronjic. Can we put a date on
14 that, the particular incident in Kravica? Or can you put a date on it, is
15 what I mean.
16 A. It's September. I don't know the exact date. I have it written
17 down somewhere. If you remind me, perhaps I could give you the exact date
18 tomorrow. But it was in September that the killing of two Muslims
19 occurred in Kravica. The circumstances are well known, if you are
20 interested, or the Trial Chamber, in finding out more details I can
22 Q. If we can just try and put a date on it then. If I suggested to
23 you that it was, in fact, Saturday, the 31st of August 1991, would you be
24 prepared to accept that that was the date?
25 A. Yes, I could accept that. I said September, but now you've helped
1 me, so we're talking about late August. That's the date.
2 Q. And then in early September, that delegation arrived that you
3 described. That's correct, isn't it?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. And what was -- what was the purpose of their visit?
6 A. The purpose of their visit was the unrest in Bratunac, those two
7 killings. They came, and they were forced to land in Bratunac in a
8 helicopter because Bratunac was blocked on all sides. All the villages --
9 in all the villages, people erected barricades. The tensions were
10 especially high between Glogova from where the two people who were killed
11 in Kravica were, and the village of Kravica. There were barricades all
12 over the place, including in the town itself. There were barricades in a
13 number of streets.
14 In that period, I went to all those places with the
15 representatives from Sarajevo who came. I went to Kravica, to Glogova, I
16 was in Bratunac town also. We addressed the Muslim citizens. And we
17 could see that both sides had weapons, and they were publicly carrying
18 those weapons. We saw numerous people with weapons on barricades of each
19 of the sides.
20 Q. I'll come back to barricades if I may in a moment. But so far as
21 this delegation was concerned, this high-level delegation, did they
22 inquire or investigate into the events which had occurred as you've just
24 A. Yes. They asked questions, and they asked me to tell them exactly
25 what happened. I talked with all of them individually, and also
1 separately with the Serb side and the Muslim side. So I did provide the
2 answers to what the cause of all of those conflicts was.
3 Q. And did that delegation pronounce any conclusions as to what had
4 happened in Kravica?
5 A. Other than visiting Glogova, Mr. Hebib and I visited Glogova, and
6 we addressed a gathering in Glogova which was attended by a large number
7 of people. And then I also visited Kravica with the Serb representatives,
8 and also addressed the people there. No other measures were undertaken
9 over those few days. Several days later, the Bratunac security station
10 staff was replaced, including the chief and the commander. I think that
11 people were brought from outside, from Tuzla, I think, to take charge of
12 that security station. These were the measures that the delegation
13 carried out.
14 Q. Did they in any way look into the question of the scale of arms
15 which were held by Muslims and Serbs in that locality?
16 A. No. I have to say that at one point we discussed this at the
17 municipality, and it was noted that there were too many weapons in
18 Bratunac, that everybody there personally saw those weapons. Neither side
19 was interested in the details of how this arming came about. It was just
20 a fact that was noted.
21 Q. And were you able at that time yourself to have any -- well, I'll
22 rephrase it. What degree of knowledge did you personally have about the
23 scale of arms which was held in the first place by Muslims?
24 A. It was difficult to control. Of course, we knew that the Muslim
25 side was arming itself. We monitored this, and I think that they also
1 knew that we were arming ourselves. Sometimes at joint meetings, we would
2 accuse one another. They would accuse us, and we would accuse them. So
3 this was an open secret in Bratunac, that we were all armed. To what
4 extent, I am not able to say, but I personally knew about it, and I had
5 and I still have to this day with my lawyer the minutes of an SDA meeting
6 in Bratunac in early 1992 in which they are distributing weapons and
7 communications equipment in local communes and different settlements, and
8 they are saying how many pieces of weapons were delivered to each village
9 and how much was due to arrive. I still have those minutes today, and I
10 think they're in the possession of my lawyer.
11 I'm saying this, but it's true that each side was arming itself.
12 Q. Now, in relation to a different locality, we've heard in the
13 course of this case a description of arms being held by Muslims as being
14 hunting rifles and not very much more than that. Would that description
15 of largely hunting rifles being held by the Muslim community, would that
16 be an accurate description of the situation in the Bratunac locality in
17 the summer of 1991?
18 A. I personally, as well as the gentlemen who came to Bratunac, could
19 see all kinds of weapons, including automatic weapons in Glogova. They
20 could see that at the barricades. At the meeting I attended in Glogova,
21 also you could see the weapons.
22 Q. And were such weapons of that type in the hands of both the Muslim
23 community and the Serb community?
24 A. Glogova is populated by Muslims, so the weapons were held by the
25 Muslims. In Bratunac, you could see automatic weapons at the barricades.
1 And the barricades were either those of the Serbs or the Muslims, and each
2 side had weapons.
3 Q. And these barricades, the word is a fairly simple one, but could
4 you give some -- perhaps a little bit more description of the nature of
5 these barricades and the effect they had on the life of Bratunac?
6 A. Yes. It did seem incredible, but this is what happened. After
7 the killings in Kravica, throughout the town and the municipality, people
8 were erecting barricades and posting sentries. When I say barricades, I'm
9 thinking of barriers placed across roads and thoroughfares. For example,
10 in Kravica they knocked down a tree to block the road. And they left a
11 small space so that cars could pass by. In Glogova as well. I toured all
12 of these places, so this is how I know the details. They brought out
13 heavy forestry machinery, large tractors out on the streets. The
14 machinery that handles large tree trunks. So you had to be very careful
15 in traffic. It proceeded with caution so that everything was under
17 In Bratunac, there were barricades in practically every street out
18 of fear that open conflict could start. You could see in the streets that
19 people had brought out objects. For example, they brought horse carts and
20 left them on the streets, or old trucks, old cars so that they could have
21 control over the traffic flow. And I saw numerous people with weapons at
22 those barricades. At one point, I myself was in a very unpleasant
23 situation because I was not able to go through a barricade. It seemed to
24 me that I would get killed because I lost my way. I came into this street
25 trying to avoid other barricades, so I couldn't get out of it. What I'm
1 trying to say is the situation remained dramatic, and it remained so until
2 the end of that year. The barricades were up for quite a long time.
3 For example, the police would enter one street to do their work,
4 and the guards posted on the street, whether they were Muslim or Serb
5 depending on the situation, would even stop the police, and sometimes they
6 would even talk to them. The police would speak to the people with the
7 weapons in a good-natured way. And sometimes, actually most times, they
8 would allow the police to pass. But sometimes it happened that they would
9 turn them back.
10 After these events, we would sit down together with the Muslim
11 side often and discuss that with them so that already in early January or
12 late December, the situation had calmed down a little bit and some of the
13 barricades were dismantled and taken off the streets.
14 Q. These barricades were to -- on the edges of particular sections or
15 neighbourhoods of the town, were they? In one case a Muslim area and in
16 another case a predominantly Serb area. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes, that's correct. There were some streets or some
18 neighbourhoods which were populated by one population group or the other.
19 And I can mention which streets and which barricades these were and who
20 the area was populated by. I can say, for example, that guards would --
21 from a Muslim checkpoint would go to talk to guards at the Serb
22 checkpoint. There were some absurd situations. People were communicating
23 amongst themselves, but they kept -- they held on to their weapons for
24 fear that somebody would do something to them. That's what the situation
25 was like.
1 Q. And these -- did these barricades, they may not have been totally
2 unchanged, but barricades remained, did they, in Bratunac and in
3 neighbouring villages right through until April 1992?
4 A. No. In the fall, just before winter, I think this was sometime in
5 December, we managed to dismantle these barricades, but people continued
6 to keep sentry. I know that in Bratunac there were guard duties. There
7 were no longer any barricades, but people would be on guard. For example,
8 a man would stand guard at his own house. During the day, he would go and
10 Q. When you say: "We managed to dismantle the barriers at the end of
11 1991," does "we" mean the local police, or who else does "we" mean?
12 A. These were joint efforts. I have to say that at the time when
13 we're talking about the SDA leadership, their key figures, the president
14 of the municipality, Mr. Nijaz Dubicic, I had a series of contacts, not
15 only I, but other people, too, from the organs of authority on the Serb
16 side. A series of meetings also attended by the members of the police.
17 And I can say that they did not support any of this, neither did we. We
18 were asking for these barricades to be removed and for life to return to
19 normal so that the police could do their work, including the investigation
20 into these killings, which was a pretext for these conflicts.
21 Q. And you said in your evidence earlier that all these events, and
22 you were talking at that time of really the second half of 1991, took
23 place against the background of the open war raging in the Republic of
24 Croatia, which was followed closely in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Do you
25 recall that?
1 A. I can say that the effect of the war in Croatia on the events in
2 Bratunac was direct because some people, both Serbs and Muslims, went to
3 those fronts as volunteers. And I know that perhaps ten young men, whom I
4 knew, perhaps there were more - I don't know - they went to Croatia to the
5 front from the Serb corps, but there were also many young Muslims who went
6 as volunteers to the fronts in Croatia and fought on the Croat side. When
7 they returned from the front, they brought the atmosphere of the front
8 back with them, so we had disputes also about this matter. To us Serbs,
9 it was inconceivable that the Muslims, in a war which wasn't their own,
10 participated on the Croat side. But they had their own reasons for this.
11 In return, they accused us of our young men going to war in a different
12 state. But this was not a mass occurrence. However, for various reasons,
13 people did go to these theatres of war. When I say various reasons, I'm
14 thinking of looting, robbery, different motives. The people who went
15 there had different motives for doing so.
16 Q. Now, in your evidence on -- well, it was yesterday, of course, you
17 referred to the affair involving Mr. Spegelj, in the arming of Croats in
18 Croatia. First question on that is -- before I ask you any more about it,
19 did that affair have any impact on the Bratunac locality?
20 A. Indirectly, yes, but it is a very stretched link. If you're
21 thinking of the arming, yes, there was a lot of pressure for the Serbs to
22 get armed. But I don't think that there was any direct link, any direct
23 effect on the actual war events in the area. However, the
24 dissatisfaction --
25 Q. I'm sorry, I interrupted, Mr. Deronjic. You said: "However, the
2 A. No, what I was trying to say was that this caused great
3 dissatisfaction amongst the Serbs. The newly elected authorities in the
4 Republic of Croatia, because of this arming which we considered to be a
5 direct threat to the Serbs in Croatia. This is how this whole thing was
6 interpreted over the media, and this was the interpretation that we were
7 receiving from the top levels of authority. And this is why we received
8 an image of the situation which may have been erroneous. But in the final
9 analysis, this caused major dissatisfaction amongst the Serbs in Bosnia.
10 Q. Mr. Deronjic, I was really in a sense trying to avoid going too
11 much into something which you confirmed didn't have a direct impact on
12 Bratunac. But in the light of the last few answers, I really had better
13 ask you, then, to tell the Tribunal as briefly as you can what was the
14 affair involving Mr. Spegelj and the arming of Croats in Croatia?
15 A. You probably know actually. I don't know how much you know. But
16 this affair was a matter of public knowledge, and it was published and
17 broadcast in the media that Spegelj participated in the arming of Croats
18 in Croatia at the time when the common state of Yugoslavia still existed.
19 This arming, these weapons came from the neighbouring countries through
20 various channels, and the State Security Service followed this, and they
21 even managed to shoot some of the activities. And I had opportunity to
22 see the footage of this affair involving this arming.
23 Q. Well, I've got to ask you about something else now, then,
24 Mr. Deronjic. You said -- when you were talking about the pressure, you
25 talked about -- well, I don't want to misquote. You say -- you talked
1 about fear, Serbs arming themselves because they were fearful of the
2 possibility that during the breakup of Yugoslavia certain things which had
3 happened in the past could happen again. And you said that people were
4 under a lot of pressure to rearm. And then you said: "Then again, there
5 was the pressure on the people because they did not fully trust the
6 Yugoslav People's Army, the JNA." Who was it who didn't trust the
7 Yugoslav People's Army?
8 A. You want me to answer only the question concerning the JNA? It
9 seems to me that you have asked several questions. If you want me to talk
10 about the JNA only, I can certainly do that.
11 Q. I didn't intend to ask several questions, so I'll refine it then.
12 The question was you referred to there being pressure on the people to arm
13 because they did not fully trust the Yugoslav People's Army. And I'm
14 asking you who it was who did not fully trust the Yugoslav People's Army?
15 A. There was a large number of people within the Serbian Democratic
16 Party who did not trust the Yugoslav People's Army. When I say, "A large
17 number of people," I'm not only referring to the membership, to the
18 members. I cannot speak about that. I am referring to the officials of
19 the SDS. Both at the local and the regional level in which I
20 participated. And also on the basis of my knowledge from the top
21 republican level of the party, I knew that there was a difference in
22 opinion as to the future role of the JNA. You're probably aware of the
23 fact that a lot of SDS members were anti-communists, and they considered
24 the army to be part of the previous, former regime, and that it was a big
25 question mark whether they would be willing to side with the Serbs in the
1 implementation of the programme, in the implementation of the nationalist
3 Such opinions were frequently expressed, and I often was able to
4 hear criticism from the members of the main board, criticism which was
5 levelled against the JNA and the fact that they were not able to adopt
6 themselves to the present moment, the actual political situation and the
7 events as they were unfolding on the ground. So apart from the failure to
8 adapt ideologically, I have to say, so that it should be perfectly clear,
9 that the JNA was still multiethnic. Their leadership, but also the rank
10 and file were multiethnic.
11 Q. I want to ask you about decisions that you took that you referred
12 to in Bratunac in early May of 1992, and two particular decisions you
13 referred to. One was a decision banning the activities of all
14 paramilitary formations in the territory of Bratunac, and the other was a
15 decision allowing the police legally to disarm illegal groups which
16 appeared in the locality. Now, you remember giving evidence about those
17 two decisions?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. Was Mr. Zekic aware of those decisions being taken?
20 A. I'm certain that he knew about the first decision. As for the
21 second one, the one of the 13th of May, Mr. Zekic was already dead. He
22 died on the 8th.
23 Q. [Previous interpretation continues]... Yes. Yes, I beg your
24 pardon, the second decision came a few days later, so of course that would
25 follow. So in relation to the first decision, did you ever hear any
1 protest or objection or dissent from Mr. Zekic in relation to that?
2 A. I saw Mr. Zekic on the 4th or the 5th of May. Unfortunately, this
3 was the last time I saw him. So I really cannot say what his view was.
4 Q. My question was whether, in fact, he indicated any dissent or
5 opposition to that first decision.
6 A. At the meeting in the Fontana Hotel, I did not mention this
7 decision at all. We discussed the overall role of the volunteers and the
8 plans that they seemed to be receiving from someone. That was the essence
9 of the discussion. He didn't make any comments, nor did I raise any
10 particular issue with respect to that. No, he did not give any comment to
11 that effect.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters are kindly asking Mr. Stewart to
13 come closer to the microphone, please.
14 MR. STEWART:
15 Q. You referred earlier in your evidence to a disarming plan, and you
16 said that after -- Captain Reljic took control, and that was in April --
17 middle of April 1992, according to your evidence, he was issuing commands.
18 And then in late April, so we're talking about 1992, certain activities
19 occurred out in Muslim villages, and in particular collection of weapons
20 in Muslim villages and warehousing of those weapons at a depot of the
21 police station in Bratunac. Were you involved in any way in that
22 collection of weapons and warehousing?
23 A. Yes, I was. Not only that, I took part in one such operation of
24 disarming as a soldier. I did not have any particular function at that
25 time, and I had been mobilised as a soldier. And I participated in the
1 action of the disarming of the village of Podcaus, as a soldier.
2 Q. And -- well, let's take that village, Podcaus, to start with. Did
3 your involvement in that enable you to form any view of what the scale of
4 arming and arms bearing had been in that village in April 1992?
5 A. The name of the village is Podcaus, and it is actually almost a
6 suburb of Bratunac in the direction of Srebrenica. I was not able to gain
7 any insight into that. I mean, I was with the troops, with the soldiers,
8 in a forest far from the village. It was members of the military and the
9 police who actually entered the village and carried out the disarming
10 itself. However, later, when I became a member of the municipal Crisis
11 Staff, I was able to check the quantity of the weapons that had been
12 seized during that operation. I think that most of those weapons were
13 hunting rifles and various kinds of trophy weapons which were first stored
14 at the police station in Bratunac, but then moved to the Zvornik police
15 station. So I think the exact number can be established. According to
16 the information that I had, I think that we were talking about 300, or
17 perhaps a little more, rifles that had been surrendered by the Muslims
18 during this operation of disarming in Bratunac.
19 Q. And those 300 came from a -- can you say, came from a population
20 of how many approximately?
21 A. 22.000 residents who were Muslims in Bratunac.
22 Q. And are you able to give any further information about the scale
23 of arms bearing in the vicinity of Bratunac at that time, in April 1992?
24 A. I'm afraid I don't have any direct knowledge of that. In April
25 1992, I did not have opportunity to count them. But it was a large
1 quantity of weapons. I have indirect knowledge coming from the testimony
2 of some Muslims, even in my case, who mentioned the fact that they had
3 buried a certain amount of weapons. Again, no numbers were mentioned.
4 But there are indications that they had secret caches of weapons.
5 I'm not trying to strike any kind of balance here. But the fact
6 remains that they had weapons. If you want me to be precise, I think that
7 the Serbs had more weapons than Muslims in Bratunac; however, as a result
8 of their numbers, Muslims in terms of the number -- the size of the
9 population, the Muslims outnumbered Serbs. But they had weapons as well.
10 Q. Now, I'd like you, please, Mr. Deronjic - and I indicated this
11 exhibit earlier to the Tribunal - to have a look, please, at P47.
12 Do you have that, Mr. Deronjic? It's -- you have been asked about
13 this before, a decision on strategic objectives of the Serbian People in
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Do you have that in front of you?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. And you were asked -- Mr. Harmon asked you, as I'm asking you now,
17 to focus on strategic objective number 3 on that list. And Mr. Harmon
18 asked you if you'd like to comment on the statement made by Mr. Kertes in
19 April of 1991 in Belgrade in this particular strategic objective. And you
20 said: "Yes, Mr. Harmon, I think these things are connected," that's
21 Mr. Kertes's statement, "perhaps not in this form, refers to the strategic
22 decision of the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina." And I'm just
23 wondering what -- if you could say what you meant by "perhaps not in this
25 A. See, here, it says: "To establish a corridor in the Drina River
1 valley," that is, to eliminate the border, which is clearly stated in
2 item 3 of this decision. Kertes uttered a sentence which was rather
3 outspoken, but it was not a precise rendering of what and how it should be
4 done. He didn't use these same words. He just said 50 kilometres from
5 the Drina River, the area will be completely Serb. So although the words
6 were not the same, the idea is exactly the same.
7 Q. Now, turning to something else, I just want to ask you about, do
8 you recall that meeting you've given evidence about when you went to Pale
9 in May 1992, and you made a report which included a reference to what had
10 happened in Glogova. You remember that?
11 A. Yes, correct.
12 Q. And you already described quite a lot about that meeting. You
13 received some sort of applause at that meeting, didn't you?
14 A. Yes, that is correct.
15 Q. What sort of applause was it? Was it polite applause for an
16 efficient report? Was it in the nature of some enthusiastic, unusual
17 congratulation? What -- how was it?
18 A. To be perfectly frank, my impression was that this was a form of
19 congratulation on the job that I had done well.
20 Q. What had you reported to the -- because you described to the
21 Tribunal you had a private discussion later about it. But how much had
22 you actually reported to the meeting about what had happened in Bratunac
23 and in Glogova?
24 A. I said that the population of the village of Glogova had been
25 forcibly moved out. I'm not sure I used the exact expression, but it was
1 perfectly clear that they had not left on their own, of their own free
2 will; that the village had by and large been burned down; that there had
3 been a lot of destruction in Glogova as well; that the operation of the
4 forcible removal of the Muslim population would continue the next day in
5 Bratunac and the neighbouring villages. That was the essence of my
6 statement. I cannot remember all the details.
7 I also indicated that I did not have information regarding the
8 killings in Glogova, and I did not inform them of that because I truly
9 didn't know anything about that on that day.
10 Q. And you described later on, Mr. Djeric was angry about that
11 particular matter.
12 A. Yes, he was very angry.
13 Q. Can you say, what were the essential points that gave rise to his
15 A. Everything. The fact that the population had been forcibly
16 removed, the fact that the village had been burned down, almost all of it.
17 He was surprised at hearing this, and I think his response concerned all
18 of this and provoked his anger.
19 Q. I want to ask you about something different, Mr. Deronjic.
20 MR. STEWART: I wonder if the witness please could have up -- if
21 we could have P52.
22 Q. You've seen this before, of course. This is a bank document. I
23 just want to ask you -- it was put to you by Mr. Harmon. Do you know --
24 well, it's more than one page, but do you know any more about these
25 documents than can be read by looking at them?
1 A. The only thing I know was that Mr. Dukic, according to the stories
2 that went around, was financing the SDS. I don't know whether anything
3 else can mean anything. But I said that this document confirmed the
4 widely spread opinion that he was one of the persons who financed the SDS.
5 I don't know anything else about this document. I saw it only recently.
6 Q. In other words, anybody else reading this document can get as much
7 from it as you can, Mr. Deronjic?
8 A. I wouldn't say anybody else. Those who are familiar with the
9 stories and the rumours, yes, perhaps. But what we see here is only the
10 mention of payments, but we do not find anything about the purpose, the
11 objective of these payments. At least, I cannot see anything that would
12 indicate that.
13 Q. Let me put it another way: Of course, when I say "anybody,"
14 anybody who knows who Mr. Karadzic is, who knows who Mr. Krajisnik is and
15 who knows that Deutsche Bank is a bank. But given those matters, what I'm
16 putting to you, Mr. Deronjic, is that you don't personally know anything
17 about any of the particular items or particular individual matters
18 referred to in this document, do you, apart from what you actually see on
19 the writing on the document?
20 A. No, nothing. I don't know anything about these payments, items,
21 but what I can see here. But I made a link with the widely spread opinion
22 that Dukic was one of the financiers from the early periods of the SDS.
23 Q. Just a different point altogether, then and we'd be finished with
24 P52 for the moment. You described in your earlier evidence how you were
25 asked for some help in relation to getting away from Bratunac. You were
1 asked for some help by Mr. Dubicic?
2 A. Yes, that is correct.
3 Q. And did you, in fact, give help to Mr. Dubicic, which was of
4 practical value to him in getting away from Bratunac?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And was that the provision of a vehicle?
7 A. No. The vehicle belonged to the Bratunac public security station.
8 He just asked whether this would cause problems if he were to take the
9 vehicle, if they took the vehicle and left, and I said there should be no
10 problems, that they could take the vehicle.
11 Q. Yes, I wasn't suggesting you gave him your car, Mr. Deronjic. But
12 you -- so you gave your approval and authority to such a vehicle being
13 made available to enable Mr. Dubicic to get away from Bratunac?
14 A. Yes. I can say that, although it's a strange formulation that I
15 approved it, since the chief of police was there. He's the one who
16 disposes of the facilities of the station. I know that some people wanted
17 to stay and some wanted to leave Bratunac. But I didn't find anything
18 strange about that. I said that if you have any problems, you can always
19 cite me, if you have any problems in Kravica. And I know that they did
20 mention my name in Kravica, and then they left for Tuzla.
21 MR. STEWART: I've no further questions, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.
23 Is there any need to re-examine the witness, Mr. Harmon?
24 MR. HARMON: A few questions, Your Honour. If I may have the
25 assistance of the usher to have the podium brought to me, I would
1 appreciate it. We have one podium for the two sides.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Re-examined by Mr. Harmon:
4 MR. HARMON: If I could have P48 shown to the witness.
5 Q. Mr. Deronjic, I would like to show you some entries in the diary
6 of Mr. Jankovic. I just invite your comments on this particular set of
8 MR. HARMON: And I have prepared for Your Honours the Jankovic
9 diaries in hard copy, and I could direct Your Honours' attention to the
10 portions that I'm referring to. The exhibit is P48.
11 Q. Mr. Deronjic, I want you to look at these particular entries. I
12 will invite your comment in a minute. And it deals with a question that
13 Mr. Stewart put to you on -- it's on page 27 of the LiveNote transcript
14 that I have, as to whether you had any contacts with Mr. Krajisnik from
15 1990 onwards. And you said in your answer that you had never had any
16 opportunity to contact Mr. Krajisnik personally in that period. And I
17 would like to refer you to the Jankovic diary.
18 I'm referring you to the entry that starts for January the 12th.
19 You will find that, Mr. Deronjic, if you could read -- if you could read
20 the diary entries and -- you are signaling me that that may not be the
21 right exhibit. Is that correct? If you could read the entries,
22 Mr. Deronjic, let me continue my question. It will be on the B/C/S
23 version of the diary on page 1 to the end of page 5.
24 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, it will be found on page 2 of the
25 English version. It will go through -- midway through page 4, the English
2 To assist the Court, I have a copy. I can just let the witness
3 use my B/C/S copy. It's difficult to locate in what is currently
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that the Defence would agree that we
6 expect Mr. Harmon to give exactly the same copy as the original document.
7 MR. HARMON:
8 Q. Mr. Deronjic, if you could take a look at the entry in
9 Mr. Jankovic's diary, the entry I'm referring to is the entry from January
10 the 12th, 1991. And if you could read that entire entry. It ends at
11 page 5 in the B/C/S version.
12 A. Excuse me, are you just asking me to read what it says on page 5?
13 Q. No, I'm asking you to read the entry that starts on -- entry for
14 January the 12th, 1991. That should start on page 1. Do you see the
15 entry for January the 12th? If you would read that complete diary entry.
16 A. Yes, I see it. Yes, I've read the first page.
17 Q. If you could read the complete entry for that date. That should
18 carry you over, Mr. Deronjic, to the end of page 5. The entry ends,
19 Mr. Deronjic, just before the new entry dated January the 13th, 1991.
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Just above the entry for January the 13th, it indicates that a
22 group of persons were to leave for Sarajevo to negotiate with Karadzic.
23 And your name is mentioned in item number 4. Do you see that reference?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Now, Mr. Deronjic, if you would turn to the entry that is dated
1 January the 15th, 1991, in the English version it is found on page 5. In
2 the version before you, Mr. Deronjic, it is found on page 9. And it's
3 dated January the 15th, 1991, and there's a -- and I'll make it easy for
4 you -- easier for you, Mr. Deronjic. I will just read it.
5 It says: "Talks in Sarajevo. The meeting began at 1800. The
6 meeting was attended by Karadzic, SDS president; Krajisnik, BiH president;
7 Velibor Ostojic, Dukic (sick with ambition). Karadzic started the talks
8 by a lesson regarding forming a party within a party and regarding not
9 consulting him about that."
10 I will not read any further, Mr. Deronjic. But as I read and
11 understood the entry on January the 12th, a delegation went to see
12 Mr. Karadzic on the 15th in respect of the SDS -- the creation of the SDS
13 regional board in your region. You were selected to be one of the
14 participants in that meeting, and that meeting occurred a number of days
15 later in Sarajevo along with Mr. Krajisnik present. So does that,
16 Mr. Deronjic, refresh your recollection? Do you recall attending such a
17 meeting with Mr. Krajisnik?
18 A. Yes, Mr. Harmon. I mentioned this meeting in a conversation with
19 you during the interview I provided, but at the time I could not remember
20 all the participants. It's true that I attended this meeting, and I
21 remember Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic at this meeting. I mostly
22 focussed on what President Karadzic was saying, and I think that I said
23 that he was very angry because in his opinion we formed this region --
24 this regional board on our own initiative. Yes, this meeting did take
1 Q. I was interested in correcting the answer that you gave that you
2 never had any opportunity to contact Krajisnik personally in the period of
3 time that was referenced by Mr. Stewart, which was the period of time of
4 1990 onwards. So let me ask you, Mr. Deronjic, what was the role of
5 Mr. Krajisnik in that meeting? What was his participation?
6 A. I really don't remember his participation. I don't remember him
7 saying anything, but I do remember that he was present. We were
8 criticised by Karadzic, and Dukic presented the main problem there because
9 he wanted to have his own informal power in Eastern Bosnia, and this is
10 where the disagreement came from. I don't really remember it all that
11 well. The role of President Krajisnik there was one of the leading
12 officials of the SDS. That's what we thought at the time.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Deronjic, I'm referring to the entry on January the 15th,
14 1991. It says, and I quote: "When we presented everything that we had
15 done, everyone but Dukic was left breathless. Karadzic and Krajisnik
16 congratulated." Can you expand on what that means, "Karadzic and
17 Krajisnik congratulated"?
18 A. I really don't know. Petar Jankovic is a very strange person. I
19 don't know whether we amazed them with our abilities or our political
20 work. I really don't think that. But probably we discussed some economic
21 activities, and they felt pleased about that. Jankovic was always talking
22 about establishing a bank. He always wanted to set up a bank. Jankovic,
23 before the outbreak of the conflict, left Bosnia and Herzegovina. He was
24 in a dispute with the SDS leadership at the time. I know that he was
25 ambitious in order to become a leading figure in the SDS. He had burning
1 ambition. But I would not really take this that seriously, that they were
2 breathless. I don't know what it was so great that we did. We were
3 criticised for some conduct about a certain meeting in Dubica, but I
4 really recall very little of this. And I don't remember them
5 congratulating us. That could be the precise answer. I don't remember
6 anybody congratulating us on anything during that period.
7 MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I see it is 3.30. Is this the usual
8 time for the break?
9 JUDGE ORIE: No, we usually have one and a half hour until the
10 first break.
11 MR. HARMON: All right.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me just to add one
13 sentence, because I can see from -- I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I'm reading the
14 minutes. He says that Dukic lost control. It's true that there was a
15 conflict between Petar Jankovic and Dukic. And I'm remembering the
16 meeting now a little bit. The main discussion was between him and Dukic.
17 Dukic practically reported us as being undisciplined in the field, and
18 this is when there was a dispute between Dukic and this Petar Jankovic. I
19 apologise for adding this.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, would you please verify with the witness
21 that in the original that in my translation it says: "Ajkic is losing
22 control and having hysterics."
23 MR. HARMON:
24 Q. Mr. Deronjic, let me direct you to the entry on January the 15th,
25 1991. That should be on page 9 of the B/C/S version before you, and there
1 is a sentence that I read to you: "Karadzic and Krajisnik congratulated."
2 In the English translation in the next sentence, there is a name. It
3 starts the first sentence. It says the name "...is losing control and
4 having hysterics." Can you tell us what the name is in the B/C/S version
5 before you?
6 A. That is Mr. Rajko Dukic.
7 Q. Let me take you down to the next -- the two sentences later, the
8 sentence that starts with: "Our delegation reached a conclusion that it
9 was all..." Can you tell me the name that follows?
10 A. Dukic.
11 Q. All right. I've concluded with this document, Mr. Deronjic. Let
12 me take you to another part of your testimony.
13 One point during your cross-examination, Mr. Stewart identified
14 for you the positions that were -- that you were aware of that
15 Mr. Krajisnik held during the period of time between 1991 and 1993. And
16 you identified the following positions. You said he was the Speaker of
17 the BH Assembly, he was the Speaker of the Republika Srpska Assembly, he
18 had a membership in the Personnel Commission. And then you added that he
19 was also a member of the SDS Main Board. And that is the sum total of
20 your recollection when you gave that testimony.
21 Let me ask you, Mr. Deronjic, are you familiar with a body known
22 as the Supreme Command?
23 A. Yes, I know of a body called the Supreme Command. This body
24 existed in Republika Srpska.
25 Q. Did that body exist in the period of 1991 to 1992?
1 A. I don't know the dates from when until when it existed.
2 Q. Are you aware if Mr. Krajisnik was a member of that body?
3 A. Yes, I know. I know that at one point Mr. Krajisnik was a member
4 of that body. And thank you for reminding me, but I really wasn't able to
5 remember that. I didn't really have the opportunity to think about that.
6 But that is correct.
7 Q. Are you aware of a body known as the National Security Council?
8 A. I don't know if we're thinking of the same body. I think that
9 that is the council -- I'm not sure whether these are two different
10 bodies. Perhaps there were two different bodies. I always thought that
11 there was -- that was just the one.
12 Q. What knowledge do you have as to Mr. Krajisnik's membership in the
13 National Security Council? If you don't know, you don't know.
14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's a little bit difficult to see what
15 the witness is going to say since he has already answered a question in
16 relation to a body called the Supreme Command, and then expressly said
17 that he thought this one was the same body. So to be asked about
18 Mr. Krajisnik's membership of what Mr. Harmon is putting forward as
19 another body when the witness is not accepting and not saying that there
20 are two different bodies is really inappropriate.
21 MR. HARMON: I'm not sure, Your Honour, it's inappropriate. But
22 it's certainly -- I will withdraw the question. This is not an area that
23 is contested. This has been a -- this is an admitted fact that is before
24 this Tribunal. So I withdraw the question.
25 Q. Mr. Deronjic, are you aware of the existence of a body known as
1 the expanded presidency?
2 A. I heard of that body, but I don't know any details.
3 Q. Okay. Let me take you, then, to another area of your
4 cross-examination. And you were asked by Mr. Stewart, and you affirmed to
5 Mr. Stewart, that you had never heard Mr. Krajisnik express any racial
6 hatred toward anyone. Do you remember that testimony? Racial or
7 nationalistic hatred toward anyone, I think was the question. Is that
8 correct, isn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you ever express any racial or nationalistic hatred toward
12 A. No.
13 Q. And nevertheless, according to your factual basis, you subscribed
14 to a policy of creating Serb-ethnic territories within Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina, and later to the use of force to remove non-Serbs from
16 Serb-designated territories --
17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, is Mr. Harmon cross-examining his
18 witness now, or is he re-examining his witness? Because, normally
19 speaking, we would suppose that cross-examining your own witness has to be
20 the subject of a special application.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.
22 MR. HARMON: I'm cross-examining your witness, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Cross-examining a witness, usually as far as I
24 understand, but I'm not raised in the common-law tradition, that if you
25 treat your own witness as someone that should be cross-examined on the
1 answers he has given on cross-examination by the other party that you --
2 whether you need leave for that, or that you at least announce that. But
3 announcement is made, and let me just confer with the other Judges.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: You may examine the witness as you did, Mr. Harmon.
6 I have to add to that, that the Chamber has noted that this is a subject,
7 at least a subject matter that has been dealt with in cross-examination by
8 the Defence. So this is not a -- this is not an opening for all subjects.
9 But on this issue.
10 MR. HARMON: I understand.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. STEWART: May I simply -- I'm sorry, Your Honour. Of course
13 we accept that ruling. So far as the subject being dealt with in
14 cross-examination is concerned, the subject of statements by Mr. Krajisnik
15 was certainly raised in cross-examination. Of course, that's precisely
16 the point. The subject of statements made by this witness, such
17 statements is not in the least bit touched on in cross-examination.
18 JUDGE ORIE: But I think it's a matter of reliability and
19 credibility that is involved because if you have to judge upon -- if you
20 have to give information on ever something -- well, let's say if you would
21 consider that to be bad being said about another person, then your own
22 position might be of influence for the situation. So therefore,
23 Mr. Harmon is allowed to proceed.
24 MR. HARMON:
25 Q. Did you understand -- let me repeat my last question,
1 Mr. Deronjic. You, nevertheless, subscribed to a policy of creating
2 Serb-ethnic territories within Bosnia and Herzegovina, and later to the
3 use of force to remove non-Serbs from Serbian-designated territories.
4 That's correct, isn't it, Mr. Deronjic?
5 A. The answer is yes.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Deronjic, I want to go to another part of your testimony.
7 You referred to preparing maps for the Bratunac municipality with
8 different colours. Do you remember that testimony?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And the different colours identified different ethnic groups
11 within your municipality. Can you identify for the Judges what colours
12 were used to designate which ethnic groups in the maps that you prepared.
13 A. Yes, we used blue to mark Serb territories and green to mark
14 Muslim territories.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I think this is repetitious. I even
16 remember that the witness said that there was no colour for Croats because
17 there were hardly any Croats. So please proceed.
18 MR. HARMON: Fine, that was only one question. I didn't remember
19 it. But I will pursue another line of questioning.
20 Q. Mr. Deronjic, you had a series of answers to one of Mr. Stewart's
21 questions in which you discussed the Serbs in their arguments emphasising
22 both historical arguments and landownership arguments. Do you remember
23 that testimony?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, the next exhibit, if I could have the next exhibit, please.
1 It is an exhibit that has a list --
2 MR. HARMON: Sorry.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit Number P62.
4 MR. HARMON: P62 could be distributed, then.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 MR. HARMON: I'm waiting for those copies to be distributed.
7 Q. Mr. Deronjic, before you is P62. Do you recognise that particular
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. What is represented by P62?
11 A. This is information about the arable lands in Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina, and the ownership of that land. We distinguish between three
13 categories of ownership: Serb ownership, Muslim ownership, and social
14 ownership which existed as a form of ownership in the earlier period.
15 Q. Did you assist in the preparation of this document?
16 A. I really don't remember the details. I said we made it. Probably
17 I helped in some way. I probably did help in the compilation of this
19 Q. All right. And where were lists like this sent?
20 A. We passed all the information to the technical service in
21 Sarajevo, the technical section of the SDS. Everything was sent to the
22 party presidency.
23 Q. All right.
24 MR. HARMON: I notice it is a quarter to 4.00 now, Your Honour. I
25 have only a couple more questions after the break.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And perhaps the Bench might have some questions
2 as well.
3 We'll adjourn until five minutes past 4.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 4.09 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: May the witness be brought into the courtroom.
7 Please be seated, Mr. Deronjic.
8 Mr. Harmon, please proceed.
9 MR. HARMON:
10 Q. Mr. Deronjic, I only have one additional matter to cover with you.
11 And it deals with Variant A and Variant B. As you recall, that document
12 is -- bears the -- in the upper left-hand corner, the Main Board, and it's
13 dated the 19th of December 1991. If I could have the next exhibit shown
14 to the witness and given a number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit Number P63.
16 MR. HARMON: There should be a sufficient number of hard copies
17 for the Judges, if those could be distributed.
18 Q. Mr. Deronjic, P63, for your information, is a set of minutes of
19 the session of the Serb People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Assembly.
20 It is an Assembly session that was held on the 11th of December 1991,
21 eight days before the issuance of Variant A and Variant B. And I would
22 like to direct your attention to subpart 2 of that -- of those minutes,
23 the part that reads: "A draft recommended (decision) on setting up
24 municipal assemblies of the Serb People in BiH."
25 Do you find that section in the minutes before you? It should be
1 very early on in the document. Mr. Deronjic, I think it is on the page
2 that bears the ERN number in the lower right-hand corner of 00183447. If
3 you could read subpart 2 in its entirety; it's not long.
4 A. I've read it.
5 Q. If I can direct your attention, Mr. Deronjic, to the top of the
6 page bearing the ERN number 00183448, to the paragraph that reads -- it
7 should read as follows: "The Assembly --" and this, Your Honour, is found
8 on page 3 of the English translation, three paragraphs from the bottom,
9 reading from that particular paragraph: "The Assembly's President,
10 Momcilo Krajisnik, once again underlined the need to set up Serb
11 municipalities where the Serbs are a minority without any obligation to do
12 the same in all municipalities."
13 Mr. Deronjic, I invite your observations on that particular
14 paragraph, please.
15 A. Without any specific guideline, I don't think I can add anything
16 in particular. I know that this concerns Variant A and B, and one can see
17 that this was discussed. I have already indicated that these variants,
18 according to this document, envisaged Variant B, that is, the formation of
19 parallel Serb organs and municipalities as well. This was actually an
20 order to establish Serb municipalities, and I implemented this order in
22 Q. Let me ask you, do you see any connection between this -- the
23 minutes of the Bosnian Serb Assembly session and Mr. Krajisnik's -- the
24 paragraph that I identified for you, and Variant A and Variant B, which
25 was issued eight days later?
1 A. Yes, absolutely. There is a connection. It can be seen clearly
2 from this. It means that this material was discussed at this session, and
3 that, among others, the Assembly's president, Mr. Krajisnik, also
4 discussed it.
5 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Deronjic. I've concluded my examination.
6 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.
8 Judge Canivell has some questions for you.
9 Questioned by the Court:
10 JUDGE CANIVELL: I would like to ask you a few things.
11 First of all, you said that in a meeting at which you thought of
12 resigning, you were promised that an aspect that you saw in the
13 instructions you had received wouldn't be applied immediately. And that
14 made you reconsider your further decision. Where did they come, these
15 promises, from the highest personalities in the SDS, or from where that
16 these promises came?
17 A. Your Excellency, I have to apologise to you, but I think that the
18 interpretation that I received was not completely clear. I don't think
19 the -- your question has been interpreted in its entirety. So I should
20 like the interpreter to repeat it, please.
21 JUDGE CANIVELL: Does the interpreter need me to repeat what I
22 asked? Well, I will repeat it.
23 You said that you were promised that some of the measures that
24 were suggested to introduce in -- you remember the A and B alternatives
25 and first and second stage of this document, you received some promise
1 that some of these measures wouldn't be implemented immediately. And
2 that's why you decided to reconsider your -- the resignation you had
3 already tendered in your post in the staff in Bratunac. I would like to
4 know who made you these promises.
5 A. Thank you for your question, Your Excellency. I now fully
6 understand what you meant. I received these promises from the municipal
7 board of the SDS in Bratunac, from an official of this municipal board.
8 So I'm talking about the officials at the local level, that they would
9 allow me to implement this variant -- these Variants A and B in the way
10 that I suggested, which implied, which included talks with Muslims
11 regarding this particular issue and an agreement to be reached with them
12 concerning the partition of certain institutions. I insisted only that
13 the police station should be divided into the Muslim and the Serb police
14 station, which agreement was reached and was implemented at the level of
15 the Joint Assembly in Bratunac.
16 Formally speaking, two police stations were set up. However, they
17 continued to work together in the same building and undertook a number of
18 measures that had been agreed upon jointly with the leaders of these two
19 police stations. So this is one of the promises that I received. This is
20 how I wanted to proceed. This is how I thought this should be
21 implemented. And it was at that point that I retracted my resignation and
22 continued to implement this policy in this manner.
23 JUDGE CANIVELL: Thank you. I have another question. You have
24 mentioned at a certain point that rank and file members of the JNA were
25 multiethnic. But at what moment you are-- you were referring, for one
1 aspect? And besides, what proportion of ethnicities would be serving in
2 those JNA forces?
3 A. Let me try to answer your question as best as I could, Your
4 Excellency, although I am not the right person to provide such analyses.
5 In 1991, Muslims refused to be recruited into the JNA. In the
6 summer of 1991, they refused the JNA recruitment. Before that, it was the
7 Muslim population that was mostly being recruited and mobilised into the
8 JNA because they were the predominant population. However, I think that
9 after 1991, a very small number of Muslims remained in the JNA because
10 they had refused to serve in the JNA.
11 JUDGE CANIVELL: And finally -- thank you. Finally, you
12 explained, but I didn't understand completely well, that at a certain
13 moment, you said Serbs had more weapons than Muslims. But I don't know if
14 you were speaking in general or you were referring to in relation with the
15 number of Serbs and the number of Muslims, or what you really meant at
16 this moment? Do you remember the point? You had mentioned it while you
17 were being cross-examined by Mr. Stewart.
18 A. Yes, Your Excellency, I fully remember my testimony. I merely
19 wanted to show that both sides were arming themselves. My opinion is that
20 as far as the percentage is concerned and the ratio between the weapons
21 and the populations, Serbs did have more weapons. However, because of the
22 fact that Muslims were more numerous, one could say they had a large
23 quantity of weapons as well.
24 JUDGE CANIVELL: Okay. Thank you very much.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for you.
1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
2 [Interpretation] Witness, I should like to ask you a few questions
3 in order to ensure that I understood you properly and that I followed your
4 testimony properly. My first question is as follows: I'm interested in
5 what was mentioned at the very beginning of your testimony concerning a
6 certain number of inconsistencies in some of your statements. Could you
7 please very briefly inform me of the reason -- of the possible reason of
8 such inconsistencies? Is it because you were not able to remember
9 everything, or was it something else? I should like to hear from you what
10 you think is the reason of these inconsistencies in your statements,
12 A. Your Excellency, when we talk about the previous statements given
13 to the Prosecutor, let me just remind you of the fact that it was in 1997
14 that I started giving statements to the Office of the Prosecutor. They
15 concerned mostly the events in Srebrenica. In a testimony here before
16 this Tribunal, I already indicated that I had not provided the whole truth
17 in some of those statements. I did tell the truth; however, not the whole
18 truth, concerning one of my conversations and meetings with Mr. Karadzic
19 because I believed that this could endanger me and my family. So this was
20 the reason why I had failed to mention this detail concerning this
21 conversation between me and Mr. Karadzic.
22 As for the remainder of the statements that I have given, I tried
23 as best as I could to be consistent. However, it is very difficult for me
24 to have full control over everything that I said, over all of the
25 descriptions of the events that I provided, especially when it comes to
1 the use of specific terms and specific wordings. It is possible for these
2 minor inconsistencies to have taken place because of the interpretation.
3 I understand that this is a rather difficult and complex process because
4 even for me it is very difficult to find the right word sometimes for what
5 I want to say. So I think that this could also be one of the reasons for
6 these inconsistencies. It was never my intention to improvise in any way,
7 and I believe I can support everything I said with adequate proof.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you very much. So if
9 I understand you correctly, you have just reassured us, and you have
10 confirmed that you have been telling the truth, that everything you have
11 told us is true and correct.
12 Let me move on to my second question concerning your intention to
13 offer your resignation at one point. You said, if I understand your
14 testimony correctly, that you had intended to resign because you did not
15 approve of the methods that had been envisaged.
16 A. Yes, that is more or less the essence of my motives.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] We have been provided with a
18 transcript -- rather, a report of the 22nd of July 1992 [as interpreted].
19 I will read it out to you because there may have been a mistake in
20 translation or interpretation. And I quote: [In English] "New option of
21 communist Yugoslavia."
22 [Interpretation] This seems to me to be a bit too removed from the
23 reasons that you offered for your resignation. The text does not reflect
24 this motive that you have given to us. I should like to hear your
25 comment, your answer to this.
1 A. Your Honour, let me first draw your attention to the fact that the
2 meeting lasted the entire day, and it was frequently interrupted with many
3 discussions and debates. This is just a brief report of the meeting. The
4 minutes were kept by a secretary of the party, not very educated man, and
5 he recorded what he thought had to be recorded.
6 As for the reasons of my resignation, I also believe that I
7 mentioned Variants A and B as well. I have to say that we, in Bratunac,
8 acted on my proposal and implemented this Variant A and B in a completely
9 modified manner. Otherwise I don't know why we would have acted the way
10 we did. But among other things, I also criticised the policy of
11 Milosevic, Karadzic, and Babic, I believe, was mentioned in this context
12 as well. Because I had had previous disagreements with these policies; in
13 particular, the policy of Mr. Milosevic. On that occasion, I expressed
14 the opinion that Mr. Milosevic was not working in the interest of the
15 Serbian people, and I also expressed my opinion that he had ideological
16 reasons to act the way he did, that he wanted to have a state which would
17 again be a communist state and so on and so forth. So it was a rather
18 long session, a rather long meeting which involved a number of discussions
19 and debates. And the person who took the minutes recorded only a small
20 portion thereof.
21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for your
22 explanation. Speaking of Variant A and B, let me draw your attention to a
23 question which was asked of you by the Prosecutor. You answered as
24 follows, and I quote your words: [In English] "One was to implement
25 measures to create Republika Srpska because Variant B implies the
1 establishment of parallel institutions at the municipal level. And when I
2 say 'parallel,' I mean purely Serbian as opposed to the institutions that
3 were in place at the time, whereas in Variant B it implied the association
4 and linkage of Serbian municipalities into one entity."
5 [Interpretation] At the beginning, you spoke only of the
6 Variant B, and then all of a sudden you say: "On the other hand, in
7 Variant A," which means that you either made a mistake or you wanted to
8 say Variant A at the beginning, and then Variant B as opposed to what you
9 had already indicated. Or maybe you wanted to say that it was only
10 Variant B which required two measures to be taken at the same time.
11 A. Your Honour, I think this is an unintentional contradiction. I
12 would actually like to modify this and say that this was implied in both
14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, please do.
15 A. If you will allow me one additional sentence concerning the
16 meeting that we discussed a moment ago, because I just remembered
17 something. So with your permission, I should like to add just one more
18 sentence regarding measures A and B and the meeting at which I tendered my
19 resignation. May I?
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, please.
21 A. Your Honour, if you continue, I think you will be able to read a
22 comment which will enable you to understand the situation better. The
23 president of the Serbian Assembly in Bratunac and a member of the
24 municipal SDS, Ljubisav Simic, says: "If necessary, we will refuse the
25 orders of the presidency of the SDS, and we will not betray the people we
1 have so far led in the direction that we deemed to be the right one." And
2 because there are no other orders but the ones that we received, he was
3 obviously referring to those orders.
4 He even says at one point we're going to refuse to obey both
5 Sarajevo and Belgrade, and we will continue with the policy that we think
6 is adequate in light of the circumstances and the situation as it is in
7 Bratunac. This is what I wanted to add.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. When he spoke
9 of the instructions coming from Sarajevo, who exactly did he have in mind?
10 A. Mr. Ljubisav Simic, the president of the Serbian municipality in
11 Bratunac, and a member of the municipal board of the SDS in Bratunac, he
12 wanted to say that we would refuse these orders if they were not in
13 conformity with our needs and the circumstances of our situation. And he
14 referred to Variant A and B.
15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, but who issued those orders?
16 A. We received the orders from the presidency of the party.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Let me move to a different topic
18 concerning the operation, or rather the events which took place in
19 Glogova. If I understand you correctly, you decided at one point to open
20 up a corridor between Bratunac and Kravica. You said: "We decided." Who
21 did you have in mind? Who took this decision?
22 A. Your Honour, I was referring to the Crisis Staff of the
23 municipality of Bratunac of which I was the president.
24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But were you prompted by
25 someone else? Did you receive directives or orders from someone else,
1 from elsewhere? Or was it you? Did you make that decision and were you
2 in charge of the implementation of that decision?
3 A. In order for you to better understand my testimony, I made this
4 decision on that night at the Crisis Staff without having received prior
5 directives to that effect. I, likewise, never asked any guidelines for
6 the implementation of this directive, save for the consultations that I
7 had had with Goran Zekic who was a member of the board and who was a
8 deputy in the Assembly. And also with this person who was a link with
9 Serbia and its state organs, Mr. Predrag Spasojevic.
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] During the night, at one point
11 you just had an idea that night that you had to adopt this decision, and
12 you carried out that decision the next morning?
13 A. No, in the factual basis, Your Honour, and in my interview -- that
14 in late April, beginning of May, I had given this idea some thought and
15 that I had discussed it with Captain Reljic, who was the military officer
16 on the ground, and that we went on a reconnaissance visit to the village
17 of Magasici on the 7th. So I had prepared this action with the military,
18 but the actual decision to proceed with the operation was adopted at the
19 meeting of the Crisis Staff of the 8th of May.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But generally speaking, a
21 decision of such a significance, would it require consent or approval from
22 higher level?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] What higher level would that be?
25 What higher level of authority?
1 A. I think that at that point it would have been the republican
2 leadership, the top leadership of Republika Srpska.
3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Is it your opinion or your
5 A. It is my conviction.
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] When was this approval conveyed
7 to you, or this order? It was either an order or an approval, if I
8 understand your testimony correctly.
9 A. I received the approval from Mr. Zekic. He was the only
10 representative of the Serbs in the republican organs at the high level. I
11 asked him whether this was okay, and he said yes.
12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let me move to
13 another subject. If I understand you correctly, you went to Pale at one
14 point to give your report of the events that had taken place in Glogova.
15 You told us that General Mladic was among those who were present at this
16 meeting, and he wanted you to indicate on a map the exact location of the
17 village of Glogova. Now, if I understood your testimony correctly,
18 General Mladic was a military chief, and the fact that he requested you to
19 point the location of a village on a map seems to me a bit confusing. I
20 mean, it is difficult to understand that the military chief would not be
21 perfectly familiar with his area of responsibility. Didn't you think it
22 strange? Were you not surprised by his question?
23 A. No, Your Honour. Let me explain. General Mladic became chief of
24 staff of the VRS on the 15th of May. This meeting took place either on
25 the 10th or the 11th of May. Unfortunately, I cannot remember the exact
1 date. And I thought, and this is what I already explained, that this was
2 the first time that General Mladic was being briefed about the situation
3 in Bosnia. And that was the reason why all presidents of the Crisis Staff
4 or presidents of the municipal board had been invited to the meeting. The
5 idea was for them to brief General Mladic about the situation on the
6 ground. That was my understanding of the purpose of the meeting, and I
7 think that at that moment he was not at all familiar with the situation in
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Not only that he was not familiar
10 with the situation in Bosnia, but you're now telling us that he at that
11 point was not yet appointed to the post of the chief of staff of the
12 military. So in what capacity was he present at this meeting?
13 A. Your Excellency, I arrived late to this meeting, and nobody
14 introduced General Mladic to me. I knew him from the media. I knew who
15 he was. I think that he was there in the capacity of a person who in two
16 or three days would take over command of the Army of Republika Srpska
17 because on the 15th of May, he was named as the commander-in-chief of
18 the VRS.
19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But I think you will agree with
20 me that he was a career military officer.
21 A. Absolutely.
22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You also told us that Mr. Djeric
23 had had a different reaction compared to the one that you received at
24 Pale. Could you explain to me in two or three words who he was, what
25 function he had, and what power he actually wielded.
1 A. Mr. Djeric was the prime minister of Republika Srpska in its first
2 composition. And according to my belief, he didn't have too much
4 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Don't you think that he acted on
5 the basis of the information that you had provided to him?
6 A. I don't know what you're thinking of exactly. Perhaps the
7 question wasn't interpreted correctly. I apologise.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] No, no, I haven't phrased it
9 properly. You provided him with a piece of very important information,
10 and he reacted in a way which demonstrated his dissatisfaction. Don't you
11 think -- didn't you think at that point that he would react on that, that
12 he would act upon it, that he would see other people, other individuals
13 who might have a certain influence on the situation?
14 A. I didn't hear that. Mr. Djeric wrote down what I said in his work
15 diary. He made no comment other than being angry. He was asking
16 angrily, "Who ordered you that? Why did you do that?" That's the way he
17 was doing it. I said that the war in all the neighbouring municipalities
18 was such that this was also spreading to Bratunac, so I also did something
19 which I believed I should do. And he wrote that down. He didn't say
21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Were you alone during that
23 A. No, no, Your Excellency. At each of the meetings, I was
24 accompanied by the driver who brought me to the meetings. He entered with
25 me to the first and the second meeting. On our way back to Bratunac, and
1 I said his name before, so on our way back to Bratunac we commented on
2 this difference in the positions and in the reactions.
3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] This brings me to my last topic
4 which concerns the issue of volunteers. You testified about the
5 volunteers who were present in Bratunac. I have a few questions in
6 relation to that.
7 To your knowledge, who was paying for them? Where were they
8 accommodated? And who paid for their expenses?
9 A. Your Excellency, the first group did not live in Bratunac, to
10 clarify that immediately. The second group who arrived lived in various
11 places in Bratunac and in abandoned Muslims houses. I don't know about
12 the financing. I don't think anybody financed them. They financed
13 themselves. They were mostly criminals who really did a lot of looting in
14 that period. So I assume that's how they financed themselves. I also
15 think that there must have been some way that they were financed through
16 Serbia, from where they came. But I don't know anything about that.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Concerning inhumane treatment and
18 the fate of the detainees, are you aware of any incident in which the
19 responsible persons were tried for what they had done or simply
21 A. I don't know of any case of anyone being questioned or put on
23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
24 Thank you, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Deronjic, I've got a few questions for you as
1 well. First questions relate again to the meeting where your resignation
2 has been the subject of discussion. First of all, for the record, I saw
3 that in English the question put in French by Judge El Mahdi refers to a
4 meeting of the 22nd of July, where I think it's the meeting of 22nd of
5 January. But in the transcript, it appears as the 22nd of July. Do we
6 agree, Mr. Deronjic, that when you answered the question of Mr. -- of
7 Judge El Mahdi, that you're referring to the 22nd of January meeting?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Also, there was a short quotation of the minutes of
10 that meeting which is not fully complete, so I'd like to have that on
11 record as well because the minutes read, where it comes to the option of a
12 communist Yugoslavia, the full sentence reads: "I will rather accept the
13 sovereign Bosnia than some new option of communist Yugoslavia." That's
14 the full sentence read.
15 Now, you answered about the minutes that were made by the
16 secretary of the municipal board, a not-well-educated man. Can you tell
17 us what the name of this person was?
18 A. The gentleman's name is Milenko Katanic.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And then you told us that this was not an educated
20 person, but did you see these minutes, and did you ever correct them or
21 made a note that they were not complete?
22 A. The answer for the first question is that I saw the minutes and I
23 signed them. I made no corrections, because I believed that it reflected
24 the essence. I did not really pay attention to the details. We did not
25 correct any minutes. We didn't have the possibility of writing everything
1 down. It was impossible to do that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The minutes of this meeting themselves say that
3 it was Mirna Nikolic who took the minutes. What's your comment to that?
4 A. I know that there were two secretaries in the municipal board.
5 Ms. Mirna Nikolic and Mr. Milenko Katanic. I thought that they were taken
6 by Milenko Katanic, but Ms. Mirna Nikolic is a party secretary. I don't
7 think that she even has a high-school education, but she is about there.
8 JUDGE ORIE: She is not a well-educated man either, is she?
9 A. Well, I wouldn't dare to say that she was not educated, but I
10 think she is able to note down everything that is stated at a meeting like
11 that. You must take into account that sometimes those meetings of ours
12 were such that discussions overlapped, and this was all part of a regular
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The only thing I'm making clear to you,
15 Mr. Deronjic, that you explained the quality of the minutes taken by
16 referring to a man, not well educated. And from your answer now, I
17 understand that it's a woman, and you certainly did not have that person
18 in mind when you answered one of my -- the previous questions. Is that
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You also told us that, this was only the essence,
22 because it had been -- and let me try to read it literally.
23 You said: "Your Honour, let me first draw your attention to the
24 fact that the meeting lasted the entire day, and it was frequently
25 interrupted with many discussions and debates." At what time did the
1 meeting start, Mr. Deronjic?
2 A. I really cannot remember these details, Your Honour. My memory is
3 not such that --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could Mr. Deronjic be provided with the minute book.
5 Would you, Mr. Deronjic, please find for me the meeting of the
6 22nd of January 1992.
7 A. Yes, I've found it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you find any indication as to the time when this
9 meeting started?
10 A. Yes. It states here that the meeting began at 1700 hours, which
11 means that it's in the afternoon. And I notice that I did not say how
12 long it lasted correctly. It started in the afternoon, but then it
13 probably went on late into the night. I think that's the only thing that
14 I can add.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I'll come back to the issue discussed in
16 this meeting, and that is that you indicated that if there would be --
17 that Mr. Karadzic, Dukic, and Koljevic should come to Bratunac where they
18 will clearly state what the national programme is and what the bottom
19 limit is. Otherwise, it reads: "I'd rather hand in my resignation than
20 betray myself."
21 Could you tell us, what was unclear to you and what needed further
22 explanation by Mr. Karadzic or one of the other persons mentioned?
23 A. Yes, I can tell you. I must say that the meeting mostly dealt
24 with the issue of relationships with Milosevic and the policy regarding
25 that. That was the central issue at the meeting. I did not want to
1 participate in something that was not quite clear to me. Did that mean
2 that the policy in Bosnia was created by Milosevic or by us? And if --
3 and whether the measures that we were implementing were something that we
4 approved at top-party levels, or was it something that we did not even
5 review or adopt?
6 For example, it was quite clear that the programme of the Serbian
7 Democratic Party was abandoned, and I think in one sentence here I
8 say: "There is no Yugoslavia any more; there are no longer six
9 republics." And that was our programme. And what I wanted to say was
10 what was our programme now, it wasn't clear, at least to me and to the
11 people in Bratunac where all of this would lead, where this new policy
12 that was being created would lead.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, was there any doubt in your mind as to whether
14 the Muslims had to leave their villages and the area they were living in?
15 A. At that point, I didn't have any idea that they were supposed to
16 leave the Bratunac municipality.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So when you said that you might resign, it was
18 mainly about future policy in the, may I call it, inter-Serbian
19 relationship, that is Republika Srpska, at least, and the -- well, let me
20 say Belgrade and Pale. That was your concern when you considered to
21 resign if you didn't get any further explanation. Is that a correct
22 understanding of your testimony?
23 A. Yes, that was one of the reasons why I wanted to submit my
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Now, in your testimony you answered to a question of Mr. Stewart
2 that on point 6 of stage 1 of the B plan, which is "set up secret storage
3 places and depots in local communities or populated places with a majority
4 Serbian population for the storage of foodstuffs, et cetera." I think you
5 were asked whether this was implemented or not, and I think that you
6 answered that question by saying that you'd rather wait and keep the money
7 apart so that you could buy the foodstuff whenever that would be needed.
8 Were, finally, these food storages created, or were they not?
9 A. No, Your Honour. That was a recommendation which was not
11 JUDGE ORIE: It was never implemented?
12 A. I don't know of anything other than it was a recommendation for
13 this to be done.
14 JUDGE ORIE: But you were never involved in implementing the
15 creation of food storages?
16 A. No, I don't remember that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: May I then ask you to look at the same document you
18 have in front of you. I have to find it on my computer. One second.
19 The minutes, but now not on the 22nd of January but the next
20 meeting. Could you indicate to us when the next meeting was held?
21 A. I don't know. I can check here. But I really don't remember all
22 of the meetings.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No, please find the next one after the 22nd of
25 A. Yes, the 24th of February 1992.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Deronjic.
2 Could I please ask you to read the last line of
3 paragraph 4, "Other business." As a matter of fact, I'll read it for you.
4 Three lines before, it's about Mr. Deronjic suggesting a few things. And
5 then the last line reads: "He added that as much food as possible should
6 be stored in exclusively Serb areas." That sounds very much as food
7 storage in which you just testified that you never implemented any food
8 storage programme. Could you please comment on this part of the minutes.
9 A. Your Honour, I said that this was a recommendation which we
10 received in the materials, and I conveyed the recommendation. Your
11 question is if I knew whether such food depots were created, and I said
12 that I didn't know anything about it. And I said that they were not.
13 When you asked me whether I took part in the creation of these food
14 depots, I practically did not do anything in order to create such food
15 depots. But I did say at the municipal board that people should take care
16 that there are food reserves at all of the various territories, but I
17 don't think that anything was actually undertaken in this regard.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Does it say any of the various territories, or
19 exclusively on Serbian territory?
20 A. Here, it states: "Exclusively Serb territories."
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In your answer, you said various territories.
22 Is that -- is it wrong in the minutes, or is it -- or was your answer a
24 A. Probably in what I said.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So do I understand your testimony well? That you say
1 that you have drawn the attention that as much food as possible should be
2 stored in exclusively Serb areas, and that this has got nothing to do with
3 food storage that was recommended to you?
4 A. I apologise. I'm thinking that there is a major misunderstanding
5 here. It's possible that you received a wrong interpretation. It
6 absolutely has to do with what we were suggested or ordered to do. And
7 I'm just saying, Your Excellency, that I did not concretise the proposal
8 in the sense that we made food reserves, or I don't know anything about
9 that. I don't know if food was really concentrated and taken somewhere.
10 I don't know about it. I don't know how we could have put it all together
11 and taken it to some territory.
12 As far as these measures are concerned, I proposed that something
13 like that should be done. If people had money, they should make their own
14 reserves, if that was possible for them.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take you to a different matter. You have
16 testified about de-arming villages. I then asked you the question whether
17 also Serbs were de-armed in those villages. And your answer was, and I'm
18 now summarising, that these were exclusively Muslim villages. I did put
19 the question to you in relation to the village of Podcaus, which is at the
20 southeastern outskirts of Bratunac. Was that an exclusively Muslim
22 A. Your Honour, it's very difficult for me to give you a precise
23 answer because I don't know what that region includes. I know that that
24 region to a vast degree is Muslim. I don't know if it's completely
25 Muslim. I don't know to this day. Perhaps there is the odd Serb house
1 there or perhaps some of the outlying settlements are mixed. But for the
2 most part, the majority part, it is Muslim.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps have the map - I haven't got a
4 number here - the map of Bratunac in front of the witness.
5 Yes, could it perhaps be put on the ELMO, if possible. Perhaps
6 you could turn a bit, Mr. Deronjic, to the machine to the right of you.
7 Could you just indicate to us what you consider to be Podcaus. Perhaps
8 with the pointer.
9 Yes, your finger is good as well. We see it just south of the
10 word "Bratunac."
11 A. [Indicates]
12 JUDGE ORIE: To where? When you were talking about de-arming
13 Podcaus, what area did you have in mind? A larger area?
14 A. [Indicates]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you, for example, go to the east and see where
16 it would stop.
17 A. I'm sorry, let me just find the east, the eastern part. Yes, here
18 it is. The area of Podcaus is connected with the area -- with the suburb
19 of Bratunac, Djanici, which is a Muslim area. Then there is the high
20 point, the high ground, Caus, the highest elevation in the Municipality of
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please point that out so that we can see
23 it, with a pointer or a pen.
24 A. [Indicates]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do see it. I didn't see when you pointed
1 where would be the eastern boundary of what you considered to be Podcaus.
2 That would go until where, up until where?
3 A. Here, I think. There is a Roma settlement cause Rakovac, but
4 there are also Serb houses there, as well as a few Muslim houses.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now, my question: Were Serbs also de-armed in
7 A. No.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So the answer is now a bit different from what you
9 said earlier when I asked: "Were Serbs disarmed in such villages?" You
10 didn't say they were not. Your answer at that time was that you referred
11 to villages that were exclusively Muslim. Isn't that true?
12 A. I don't see the difference. I indicated yesterday that Serb
13 villages had not been disarmed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I asked whether Serbs in villages that were disarmed
15 were also disarmed in those villages. But it's not of vital importance
16 whether you see the difference. But do you agree with me that your answer
17 now in respect at least of Podcaus is a different answer to what your
18 answer was on my earlier question whether in disarming villages, Serbs
19 were also disarmed?
20 A. I don't precisely remember the answer that I gave.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'm not going to insist that you answer my
22 last question.
23 I'll turn to a totally different subject, your visit to Bajina
24 Basta. Do you remember that you testified that you were invited by
25 Mr. Zekic to go there. What was the reason to go there?
1 A. Mr. Zekic sent me a message through a person who visited me at
2 home, Mr. Milorad Popovic, a member of the Bratunac SDS. He said that
3 Mr. Zekic had left me a message, that he had gone to Bajina Basta, and
4 that I should get there as well because there was a meeting to be held in
5 the building of the Territorial Defence of Bajina Basta. I took a vehicle
6 from the power distribution company in Bratunac and went to Bajina Basta.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, so the meeting was the reason why you went
8 there. You saw that the same kind of troops or men that later came to
9 Bratunac came over a bridge into Bajina Basta. Is that -- did I correctly
10 understand that?
11 A. No. These men went to Skelani on the Bosnian side. So they went
12 from Bajina Basta, which is in Serbia, to Skelani.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, came from Serbia, and they came over the bridge.
14 I take it the bridge over the Drina River. Is that a correct
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you were told at that time that you could
18 expect them to come to Bratunac as well. Is that a correct understanding?
19 A. I don't remember using these words.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I'll check it for you over the break. One of the
21 problems is that I have only partial access to my LiveNote in this
22 courtroom because part of the testimony was given in another courtroom.
23 You said that the same type of men appeared in Bratunac, but you
24 didn't know where they came from or you didn't know who they were? Do you
25 remember that you were asked about who they were, who came to Bratunac?
1 A. Yes, I remember that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you repeat your answer to that question. Yes.
3 A. Your Honour, this is the question that I was asked when Muslims
4 asked me whether I could give them my guarantee. I couldn't because I
5 didn't know those people. I could only make assumptions as to who they
6 were. No one told me at the meeting who it was who had sent them, nor did
7 they identify themselves. I mean, at the meeting at the Fontana Hotel.
8 Goran Zekic only briefly introduced these people to me, and he said that
9 the topic of the discussion was Srebrenica, that they had issued an
10 ultimatum to the Muslims in Bratunac to abandon power. I didn't know who
11 those people were; I didn't know who had sent them. I knew only that they
12 had arrived with Goran Zekic.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And when you were in that meeting a couple of
14 days before when you saw these people for the first time, you didn't
15 ask, "Who are they"?
16 A. Yes, I did. And Zekic told me that they were volunteers who were
17 supposed to enter Srebrenica.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Anything further than volunteers, or...
19 A. Just what he told me. He made a joke that they had been brought
20 by Jokic and made some comments to that effect. But they were about to
21 leave for Skelani. I stayed in this office briefly, and Zekic and I
22 continued talking for about a minute or two when we got to Skelani. I
23 immediately went back to Bratunac, thinking that I would soon have an
24 opportunity to meet with Zekic again and bring up the issue.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And did you have such an opportunity?
1 A. It was on the 5th of May that I first had opportunity to discuss
2 the issue directly with him.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Was that before these people came to Bratunac or
5 A. After their arrival.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So even when they arrived in Bratunac, did you ask
7 Mr. Zekic again who they were, apart from just being volunteers?
8 A. No. The meeting was a rather unusual one. No one told me that we
9 had a meeting that day. I received the information to come to the
10 meeting, but we discussed some issues very briefly, and then I immediately
11 went back to the police station to discuss further with the Muslims. But
12 they soon arrived and then immediately left for Srebrenica. And I never
13 saw Zekic again because he went with them.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, my question was whether you further asked him.
15 You gave a long answer but... Could I understand the answer to be no?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous interpretation continues] ... My question
18 was whether you asked Mr. Zekic again who they were. And I do now
19 understand that your answer was no.
20 Now, about you expecting these people to come to Bratunac as well,
21 could you -- you said you had no expectation or no one presented you any
22 perspective in that direction. Or could you tell us a bit more about how
23 surprised you were when these people came to Bratunac.
24 A. Your Honour, I was totally surprised because no one had told me.
25 Of course, I could assume that Bratunac would be visited by someone
1 because such things were happening in my surroundings everywhere. But
2 I -- and I simply couldn't conclude on the basis of anything that Bratunac
3 would be bypassed and that such a group would not appear in Bratunac.
4 However, I was surprised because no one had told me that someone would
5 come to Bratunac on the 17th, the 17th of April.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand you well that you say, "I was
7 surprised although I expected it to happen"?
8 A. Precisely. I thought that a thing like that could happen, but I
9 didn't know who would that be, when they would arrive, and I also thought
10 that if this should happen I should be informed by someone about their
11 arrival, that I would be told in advance as to what their mission would be
12 in the town.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I've got no problems in accepting that you thought
14 that it could happen. My question was whether you expected it to happen
15 and when you had any idea of whether that would be after you-- whether
16 that would come soon or late or a month or a week or -- I mean, what
17 actually was in your mind apart from that something could happen?
18 A. Your Excellency, your question commands a longer answer, due to
19 the complexity of the situation in Bratunac and my attitude to the policy
20 coming from Serbia, which is something that I could discuss here for
21 days --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. I'm not asking what was the
23 basis for what you thought to be possible or what you expected; I'm asking
24 you, did you just consider it possible that they could come or did you
25 expect them to come? And if you thought it would be possible or if you
1 expected them to come, would that be soon or late or whatever did you have
2 in mind at that moment when you returned from your meeting with Zekic when
3 you for the first time saw those people? What was on your mind as to what
4 Bratunac might experience in the future in this respect?
5 A. My thinking at that time was that for some mysterious reason
6 Bratunac was being bypassed, starting from Bijeljina and moving further
7 south, you have the events in Zvornik, and then nothing happens in
8 Bratunac. And all of a sudden, you have these people appearing in
9 Srebrenica. And I thought maybe they would not come to Bratunac at all,
10 that Srebrenica was a strategically more interesting municipality and that
11 similar things would happen there as in Bijeljina and Zvornik. However, I
12 was not ruling out the possibility that someone would come to Bratunac as
14 JUDGE ORIE: To summarise, you didn't think it impossible that
15 they would come, but you did not consider it likely or very likely. You
16 didn't expect them to come. Is that a correct understanding of your
18 A. It's really a nuance, a minor difference. I don't want to make a
19 mistake. I was expecting an event of that kind to take place, but I was
20 not sure that it would indeed happen and in the manner that it eventually
21 did happen.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the 16th of February, your testimony
23 was: "When I came back to Bratunac, I expected that Bratunac would soon
24 also be caught up in the same problems and that some unit would also
25 appear there."
1 A. Yes, I never excluded that possibility. That is correct.
2 JUDGE ORIE: When did you first find out how many people were
3 killed in the Glogova attack?
4 A. I never learned the exact number of the people who were killed in
5 Glogova --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please continue your answer.
7 A. Information about the possibility of there having been killings in
8 Glogova, after the funeral of Zekic, someone did mention that people had
9 been murdered in Glogova. However, this person - I cannot remember who it
10 was - was not certain about it. In the course of the several following
11 days, I'm sure I did not have any opportunity to become acquainted with
12 this. I was describing the -- I have described for you the events that
13 took place on the 10th, 11th, and the 12th. Those were very dramatic
15 Later, after that period, different information reached me about
16 the events in Glogova. At one point I heard that there had been killings,
17 and then again this would be denied. It is difficult for me to tell you
18 precisely when it was that I learned that killings had taken place. After
19 the war, or rather during the war, I had the opportunity to read a book
20 whose author is a man from Bratunac, and he mentioned in this book that a
21 certain number of people had been killed in Glogova. The author of the
22 book I'm talking about is Mr. Masic, a teacher from Bratunac. After the
23 war, all my attempts to learn more about it were to no avail. It was
24 impossible for me to learn what exactly had happened in Glogova.
25 Some inquiry was done by my lawyers in the course of the
1 preparation of my Defence, and then we learned that, yes, there had
2 been -- that there were killings, and we even discovered the location
3 where it happened. This was all done pursuant to my request because we
4 wanted to establish the truth and find out how many people had been killed
5 in Glogova. However, we were not able to get any firm proof, and I
6 accepted the allegation of the Prosecutor -- the case of the Prosecutor.
7 Whether this is the exact number, I don't know, but I have no reason to
8 doubt what they think happened there.
9 JUDGE ORIE: When for the first time you accepted that a large
10 number of people were killed in Glogova? And when I'm talking about a
11 large number of people, that's in the -- over 40, let's say it that way.
12 So I'm not asking about any specific knowledge of whether there was 65 or
13 68 or 62. When did you accept and believe for the first time that a
14 larger number of people were killed in Glogova?
15 A. Here, Your Honour, when I was faced with the facts as they were
16 pleaded in the indictment and after we carried out some additional
17 investigation into that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Mr. Deronjic, let me just see whether I have any more questions
20 for you.
21 Yes, one final question for you. The preparation for the attack
22 on Glogova as far as logistics were concerned, was that prepared prior to
23 the decision taken or was it organised all on the same evening?
24 A. It was prepared before. The army carried out the preparations.
25 We just gave our approval at the meeting.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And they were already in position?
2 A. No. However, the deployment and participation of the units was
3 already known. So right after the meeting, I went to see the unit which
4 had already been lined up in front of the town hall.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answers.
6 We'll have a break now because it's already one hour and a half.
7 Would there be any need to ask further questions to Mr. Deronjic on the
8 basis of the questions put by the Bench?
9 Mr. Harmon.
10 MR. HARMON: Not on behalf of the Prosecution.
11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I understood that we normally would be
12 given an opportunity to ask any questions that arise out of the
13 Prosecution's questions.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if there is some really urgent question.
15 Usually there is after cross-examination, but if it directly arises out of
16 the Prosecution's questions and re-examination, then I would not stop you
17 from putting a question to the witness. But did you have many in mind
19 MR. STEWART: No. No, Your Honour, I didn't. I mean, they're
20 only urgent in the sense that if I don't ask them while Mr. Deronjic is
21 here, then there's not much point.
22 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would it take? Should we do it after
23 the break or -- I know that the interpreters and the technicians urgently
24 need a break.
25 MR. STEWART: Probably no more than two or three minutes, Your
1 Honour, if I risk saying that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're referring to unexpected again.
3 Mr. Harmon.
4 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. I'm just trying to anticipate the
5 remainder of the agenda for today. Does the Court, after Mr. Stewart, --
6 if we come back and Mr. Stewart asks some additional questions, does the
7 Court intend to ask additional questions? The reason I raise that it
8 because it will take us approximately 25 minutes or 30 minutes to set up
9 for the next witness we have.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we would have a bit of a longer break - and
11 I'm now looking to the interpreters and the technicians - would you allow
12 for another three minutes, apart from the unexpected?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I get a positive response from the booth. So please
15 proceed, Mr. Stewart.
16 Further cross-examination by Mr. Stewart:
17 Q. Mr. Deronjic, you had a reference to the National Security Council
18 that came up in the questions from Mr. Harmon this afternoon. Did you
19 ever receive any sort of letter or order or written communication of any
20 sort from the National Security Council?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Or any oral instruction or order?
23 A. No, I don't remember any such thing.
24 Q. So far as the Supreme Command was concerned, you heard a mention
25 from Mr. Harmon as well of Supreme Command. If I suggest to you that that
1 was -- that that was an advisory body, do you know anything at all about
3 A. No, I really don't know anything about the work of such an organ.
4 I'm aware of its existence, but I don't know anything about its work.
5 Q. And if I suggest to you that Mr. Krajisnik was a member of the
6 Supreme Command from the 31st of December 1992, is that something you can
7 accept, reject, or simply have no knowledge of?
8 A. No, I don't know anything about it.
9 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. That -- I think that was
10 within the three minutes maybe.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it certainly was.
12 Mr. Harmon.
13 MR. HARMON: I don't want to stimulate a protracted question and
14 answer. But if I could show the witness Prosecution Exhibit 56 to refresh
15 his recollection in respect of one of the questions -- specific questions
16 that was asked by Mr. Stewart, I can elicit a single answer from him. Or
17 I can do it after the break, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 Further re-examination by Mr. Harmon:
20 Q. Mr. Deronjic, you were asked whether you had ever received any
21 sort of letter or order or written communication of any sort from the
22 National Security Council. And let me direct you to Prosecution
23 Exhibit 56 which you should have in front of you. And I direct your
24 attention to the first paragraph in that order which is dated the 1st of
25 May 1992. Do you see a reference in that first paragraph to the National
1 Security Council?
2 A. The National Defence -- excuse me, National Security Council.
3 Q. Do you see that reference?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 MR. HARMON:
6 Q. Do you see that reference in Prosecution Exhibit 56?
7 A. Yes, that is correct. So, yeah, there has been a mistake. I was
8 not aware of which particular body sent this. When we discussed this
9 decision, I didn't pay attention to that.
10 MR. HARMON: No further questions. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.
12 Mr. Deronjic, this concludes your testimony in this Court. Very
13 often I have to say that I thank witnesses for coming from a long
14 distance. In your case, I think I could just leave it to thanking you for
15 coming and giving evidence in this Court.
16 Mr. Deronjic may be escorted out of the courtroom.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then just a few technical matters for the parties. I
19 see that no Defence exhibits have been tendered during the
20 cross-examination of Mr. Deronjic, and that the Prosecution tendered
21 Exhibits P33 up to P63. And since no objections were made and since I do
22 not hear any objections at this very moment, they are admitted into
24 Then finally, I'd like to indicate to the parties, and also to the
25 Registry, that next Monday, and I do understand that the parties have been
1 consulted about it, that next Monday we'll sit in the afternoon and it
2 will be Courtroom III.
3 We'll now adjourn until a quarter past 6.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 5.47 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 6.20 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I see that the composition of the Prosecution team
7 has changed. Mr. Tieger, could you please.
8 MR. TIEGER: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. I'm
9 Alan Tieger. I appear with Mr. Timothy Resch.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger. We have been provided with
11 four binders as it stands now for the next witness. I do understand that
12 there are a lot more to be expected, and apart from that, that we have
13 binders for footnotes as well which we would not start to learn by heart
14 today. And finally, that there are also a similar number of binders for
15 the original B/C/S version.
16 I do understand that Madam Registrar has a -- has developed a
17 system of numbering these exhibits, and I also do understand that a final
18 number cannot be yet assigned to all the documents because we need the
19 overview of all of it. It's a complex, logistical exercise. Let's start
20 and see where we get stuck, hopefully not at all. Yes.
21 Any questions by the parties as far as the system of numbering is
22 concerned? If not, perhaps, Madam Registrar, a few words on how it works.
23 [Trial Chamber and the Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE ORIE: I see that each binder will have a number and each
25 binder will contain a certain number of tabs. And since we do not know
1 exactly how many tabs fit into the binder, the final numbering will be
2 done at the end, but the exhibits will be stored in these binders in
3 accordance with their presentation. Is that a correct understanding?
4 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I had a bit of difficulty
5 hearing the last portion of the Court's comments.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I said that the exhibits will be stored in these
7 binders in the subsequent order corresponding with their presentation in
8 the courtroom.
9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. And if I may, as long as we're on
10 the subject of logistics in what the Court correctly characterised as a
11 fairly complex logistical exercise, we have also prepared the exhibits in
12 electronic form to be presented in the Sanction mode. In that connection,
13 I should mention that we have been apprised of some of the difficulties
14 that the Court encountered previously. We have made an effort to address
15 and remedy those problems. Whether or not they will be wholly
16 satisfactory, of course, remains to be seen. But I'm optimistic and
17 hopeful that the Sanction presentation will be of greater benefit to the
18 Chamber than it was previously.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber hopes that it's not necessary to go
20 collectively to the ophthalmologist, I think you call it, because we
21 couldn't just see it.
22 Yes, Mr. Stewart.
23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I just say. There are two things
24 actually. I wonder, perhaps I'm just being thick, but I'm just trying to
25 understand. Your Honour says the final numbering will be done at the
1 end. Does Your Honour mean the exhibit numbering or what?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because it will be double numbering. One for
3 the binder, the next one for the tab. But if we do not know exactly at
4 what number we stop, I mean how many -- I mean, a document could be
5 binder 2, number 14. But if it doesn't fit in, it will be binder 3,
6 number 1.
7 MR. STEWART: Oh, it's -- I understand that, Your Honour. That's
8 what I was having difficulty with. I quite see why the binder and tab
9 numbering might have to wait until the end. But they are going to get
10 their P, though, number immediately.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry. That was what I didn't understand. May
13 I simply make this observation as well: The Defence team in all sorts of
14 ways as Your Honour will know since we -- both counsel are new to this
15 Tribunal, we have been on a learning curve about all sorts of practical
16 matters effecting how the Tribunal works, and Your Honour has been very
17 patient with us as we climb up that learning curve.
18 As far as Sanction is concerned, we are absolutely at the very
19 bottom and beginning of that curve. Because although we know about it, we
20 very assiduously went to a lecture and presentation about it before
21 Christmas. But we have had no training, no experience, we know nothing
22 about it, we know nothing about how it works. I simply make that clear,
23 because if that is going to be a handicap to the Tribunal or to us, then,
24 we'll have to take an opportunity to find out about it. But we know
25 nothing really.
1 JUDGE ORIE: From what I understand, the Prosecution is presenting
2 it computerwise in Sanction, and we had some difficulties in properly
3 looking at it on our screens. Is Sanction available for the Defence? I
4 take it it is. So therefore -- yes.
5 MR. TIEGER: My understanding, Your Honour, is that it is used by
6 the Defence, for example, in the Brdjanin case.
7 MR. STEWART: That's fine, Your Honour, except that we are not the
8 Defence in the Brdjanin case. We don't have it. So is it something --
9 are we going to be given a --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Is the license available? I think, as a matter of
11 fact, Madam Registrar is writing some useful information, as she always
12 does. Let me be wise and wait for it.
13 Yes, if you contact OLAD or Ms. Philpott, the Registrar, then
14 you'll learn more about how available it is, how to use it -- well,
15 whatever information you'd like to have, you can get it from OLAD and the
17 MR. STEWART: Thanks, Your Honour. And I hope that money doesn't
18 have to change hands.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's... I do understand your hope.
20 Mr. Tieger, are you ready to call your next witness, which I do
21 understand will be Mr. Treanor.
22 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Treanor into
24 the courtroom.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Good evening, because it's already after 6.00,
2 Mr. Treanor, I assume. Mr. Treanor, before giving evidence in this Court,
3 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
4 declaration. The text is handed out to you now by the usher. May I
5 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
6 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
7 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated, Mr. Treanor.
9 I noticed that you'd prefer not to have headphones. May I take it
10 that you could follow whatever language is spoken in this Court, that
11 would mean French, English, and/or B/C/S?
12 THE WITNESS: Well, I can certainly follow the English, and I can
13 more or less follow the B/C/S. If there's going to be B/C/S, I'll
14 probably use the headphones.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And French?
16 THE WITNESS: No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi usually speaks French, so if he
18 speaks, would you please put on your headphones because otherwise you'll
19 miss what he says.
20 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 WITNESS: PATRICK TREANOR
23 Examined by Mr. Tieger:
24 Q. Good evening, Mr. Treanor.
25 A. Good evening.
1 Q. I'd like to begin by reciting quickly some of your academic and
2 professional background, I hope accurately, and I trust you will correct
3 me if I'm in error in any respect.
4 You were -- you received a bachelor of arts in modern languages
5 from the College of Holy Cross in Massachusetts in the United States, a
6 masters degree in Russian and Eastern European studies from Yale
7 University, and a doctor of philosophy from the School of Slavonic and
8 Eastern European Studies from the University of London in Bulgarian
9 history. Is that correct?
10 A. That's correct.
11 Q. Now, if I understand correctly, you began your professional career
12 as an intelligence analyst in the federal research division of the United
13 States Library of Congress in 1977 until 1980. Is that right, sir?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. And in 1980, you began work as an historian and later a senior
16 historian at the Department of Justice in the office of special
17 investigations. Is that right?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. You remained there until 1994?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, that office is responsible -- was and is responsible for
22 investigating and litigating cases of persons living in or attempting to
23 gain entry to the United States and who are alleged to have participated
24 in Nazi persecution during World War II?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. And is it also correct that much of your work in that respect
2 related to the former Yugoslavia?
3 A. Yes, that is also correct.
4 Q. Now, from 1994 to the present, have you been engaged first as a
5 research officer for the Office of the Prosecutor, and subsequently as the
6 head of the legal research team, a post you assumed in February of 1998?
7 A. I have been a research officer since 1994. There have been some
8 various changes in title. At the beginning, the name of the team that I
9 headed is the leadership research team, however.
10 Q. And in the course of those efforts, have you conducted your own
11 research and supervised the research efforts of others on your team?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And has that work involved the collection and analysis of
14 documents relating to the conflict in Bosnia, and more specifically, to
15 the Bosnian Serb governmental organs and the SDS?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Treanor, you prepared a report, did you not,
18 entitled "The Bosnian Serb Leadership, 1990 through 1992" which was
19 indicated 30 July 2002?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And can you -- well, let me ask you quickly whether that report
22 describes the structures, organs of the Serbian Democratic Party and the
23 government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Republika
24 Srpska, as well as the policies and leadership of the SDS and the Serbian
25 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
1 A. Yes, that's correct. That's generally the content of the report.
2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that report and its accompanying
3 footnotes have been marked as Prosecution's next in order. And at this
4 time, I would ask that it be moved into evidence.
5 THE REGISTRAR: The expert report will be Prosecution Exhibit
6 Number P64. And the 28 binders of footnotes will be P64A.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. Mr. Treanor, can you provide the Court with some understanding of
9 the nature of the documents that are reflected in that report and upon
10 which that report relied for its -- for the issues it focussed on and its
12 A. Yes, certainly. First of all, I'd like to say that the report is
13 a joint product written by myself and other members of my unit. I began
14 the research and writing that ultimately resulted in the report in 1994.
15 After the formation of the team in late 1997, early 1998, other members of
16 the team became involved in pursuing the research and writing in specific
17 areas. I continued to supervise that process and maintained ultimate
18 control over what went into the report.
19 Now, the report itself is based on the very extensive collection
20 of original documents which is in the possession of OTP. Most of those
21 documents originate from the Serbian Democratic Party or the governmental
22 structures which it set up, in particular, the Serbian autonomous regions
23 and the various organs of the later Republika Srpska.
24 When I say original documents, I mean documents which were
25 internal to those structures on the one hand, which is a very large volume
1 of documentation including such items as minutes of meetings, internal
2 correspondence, instructions that were issued by various levels, reports
3 received from various levels of the party and state structures. The
4 official documentation also includes the official publication of initially
5 the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina; that is, its
6 Official Gazette, which later became the Official Gazette of
7 Republika Srpska.
8 We also utilise in the report a few press items which helped to
9 shed some light and fill in some gaps in the documentation that we have.
10 There are also -- among the original documentation, there are some diaries
11 of individuals that were involved in the activities of the SDS and its
12 offshoots. And we also drew to some extent on the intercepted telephone
13 conversations of high-ranking members of the SDS. These telephone
14 conversations were intercepted by the State Security Service of Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina and have been made available to us. I think those are the
16 general types of documentation that the report is based on. Primarily, it
17 is based, however, on the -- again, the official documentation of the SDS
18 and its governing structures as they were set up gradually in 1991 and
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Treanor, may I ask -- may I just ask you one
21 clarification. I don't know whether I understood you well. Could you
22 please look at your screen, page 76, line 4. You said: "We also utilise
23 in the report a few press items." I thought I heard something different,
24 but it might be that my ears are not good enough.
25 THE WITNESS: A few press items?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is that what you said?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, then I misunderstood you.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Mr. Treanor, you've also selected a number of documents for the
7 purposes of assisting the Court in understanding your testimony during the
8 course of this case. Is that right?
9 A. Yes, that's correct. The report is written on a topical basis;
10 that is, each of the structures involved is discussed and analysed from
11 the point of view of how it was organised, how it operated, who the main
12 personalities were, what the nature of its activities were. It is not, as
13 I think it stated in the introduction to the report, the report is not a
14 history by any means of the conflict. Therefore, it does not have a
15 chronological organisation to it, but rather, as I said, a topical
17 I felt that for the purposes of presenting the report to the
18 Court, it might be more helpful, since I presume the Court is familiar
19 with the report, to attack the subject from another angle, that is, more
20 from the chronological point of view, to give the Court a feeling for the
21 development of events, particularly how the SDS leadership perceived the
22 development of events within Bosnia in order to understand the context in
23 which the various structures that it set up were formed, what their
24 purposes were at the time that they were formed, and how they fulfilled
25 the functions that they were designed to fulfil within the overall plans
1 of the SDS leadership.
2 Therefore, the presentation that you'll be hearing over the next
3 few days will include a number of documents which were not included in the
4 original report in order to give the Court a feeling for this
5 chronological development, the situation as it unfolded for the SDS
6 leaders. We will also be using many documents that were cited in the
7 report, but sometimes, again, attacking those documents from a different
8 angle, more from the point of view of what they tell about the development
9 of events rather than what they tell about the structures per se.
10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, as the Registrar has already noted, the
11 documents to be used during the course of Mr. Treanor's testimony have
12 been assembled and presented. At this time, I would ask that they be
13 given the next order in number and moved into evidence.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit Number P65.
15 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, as we move --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you would expect a decision on admission into
17 evidence, Mr. Tieger, but the practice in this Trial Chamber is that we
18 deal finally with the exhibits at the very end of the testimony of the
19 witness. But of course, the Defence knows that they could object right
20 away. But in order not to do it all in bits and pieces, we do it at the
21 very end, but we'll hear whatever objection there might be at the moment
22 when the documents are tendered. And that of course -- and since we're
23 talking now about binders, the Defence is in a position to object whatever
24 document from a binder is presented, and if they would find there would be
25 any reason not to be admitted, not even to be presented to the witness.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. Mr. Treanor, I'd like to move into that chronology, but perhaps
4 before we do, it would be of assistance to the Chamber if you could
5 provide an overview of the materials that you will cover, the issues that
6 you will address during the course of your testimony.
7 A. Yes, certainly. The report, as I mentioned earlier, is organised
8 on a topical basis. The main topics covered are the Serbian Democratic
9 Party itself, its founding, its programme, development and activities, the
10 policies that its leadership pursued. It then moves into discussing the
11 structures that were set up by the leadership of the Serbian Democratic
12 Party; that is, the -- first of all, the regional structures, and then the
13 central governmental organs of what later became Republika Srpska. The
14 presentation over the next few days will cover all of those topics. But
15 as I indicated earlier, we'll attempt to put them into the context of the
16 development of events in Bosnia and Herzegovina, which I will try to refer
17 to as BH for the sake of simplicity heretofore, between approximately the
18 middle of 1990 and the end of 1992. That period of time saw Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina move from being under the single-party rule of the League of
20 Communists to being a -- to having a short-lived perhaps multiparty
21 governance, and then finally moving into what the Bosnian Serb Assembly
22 later referred to as an interethnic and interfaith war.
23 The main milestones along that path are the -- and as will be
24 covered in the presentation, the founding of the political parties,
25 especially the SDS, in July 1990, the multiparty elections in November and
1 December 1990, then the developments of relations between the SDS, which
2 became one of the governing parties in BH after the elections, and its
3 partners in governance in a coalition. They were in a coalition with the
4 SDA, the party of democratic action, which was a Bosnian Muslim party, and
5 the Croatian Democratic Union, which was the Croatian party in Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina. Their relations began to deteriorate over certain issues,
7 most notably the position of Bosnia and Herzegovina within Yugoslavia, the
8 internal organisation of Bosnia and Herzegovina itself. Those relations
9 were exacerbated by the outbreak of war hostilities in Slovenia and
10 Croatia in the summer of 1991, which led to a heightening of tensions
11 within Bosnia, which produced the next major step in the development of
12 this story which is October 1991 when the Assembly of BH basically voted
13 to take BH on the path to total independence from Yugoslavia, which was
14 responded to by the SDS leadership with the formation of its own assembly
15 in October 1991.
16 That further develops -- they further developed their governmental
17 institutions over the next few months. Negotiations were going on at the
18 same time to reach an internal settlement. But they failed. And at the
19 beginning of April 1992, BH was, in fact, recognised by foreign powers as
20 an independent state which led the SDS leadership, and in particular, the
21 Assembly which it had founded, to declare RS as an independent state.
22 The story then continues, as will be seen in the course of the
23 presentation, with the activities of the higher level government bodies of
24 Republika Srpska, in particular the National Security Council and the
25 Presidency of Republika Srpska which -- of which Mr. Krajisnik was a
1 member. And we take the story through, I think, until the -- basically
2 the middle of December 1991 [sic] when the Presidency of Republika Srpska
3 was reformed, and Radovan Karadzic was elected as the single president of
4 the Republic.
5 Q. If you just -- I think --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. Just a minor correction to the record. I think when you
9 concluded, you mentioned that the -- we take the story I think until
10 the -- basically the middle of December 1991.
11 A. 1992, I'm sorry.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 Mr. Treanor, will the documents to which you refer and your
14 discussion of those documents also embrace the leadership figures of the
15 SDS and Republika Srpska and the nature of their interaction with each
16 other and their subordinates?
17 A. Yes, I think it's fair to say that the documentation that will be
18 presented focuses very much on the central leadership figures within the
19 SDS and its governmental structures and the relationships that they had
20 with each other and also with many of their subordinates.
21 Q. Mr. Treanor, then, can we begin discussing the documents that you
22 selected, and perhaps we can begin, then, with the founding assembly of
23 the SDS in 1990.
24 MR. TIEGER: And Your Honours, this can be found at tab 1 of
25 binder 1 and will, of course, be presented on your screen.
1 Q. Mr. Treanor, can you tell us what the document found at tab 1
3 A. Well, if I'm not mistaken, we have here the introductory speech of
4 Radovan Karadzic to the founding assembly of the Serbian Democratic Party
5 on the 19th of July 1990. It was -- this Assembly founded the party,
6 elected Radovan Karadzic president of the party, and adopted a programme
7 and party statutes.
8 Q. Although I know you've already alluded to it in your overview, can
9 you place the foundation of the Serbian Democratic Party in context of
10 events in former Yugoslavia and in Bosnia particularly.
11 A. Yes, I can. I'm not sure how great a length you'd like me to go
12 on about that, seeing as there's only a few minutes left. To make a very
13 long story short, Yugoslavia was going through a very severe crisis in
14 1989 and 1990. There was acute disagreement among the ruling communist
15 elites in the various republics who still ruled Yugoslavia as a one-party
16 state. Disagreement over the internal structure of that state, the nature
17 of its political system, and indeed its economic system. I would also
18 remind the Court that at this time the communist systems in Eastern Europe
19 and the Soviet Union were also undergoing severe crisis, the fall of the
20 Berlin Wall on the 9th of November 1989, and I could recall a little
21 closer to Yugoslavia the fall of the Ceausescu regime and the murder of
22 Ceausescu on the 25th of December 1989. The League of Communists of
23 Yugoslavia had an extraordinary -- its 14th and extraordinary congress
24 on -- in January 1990, and on the 23rd of January, that congress, in
25 fact, broke up to disagreements among the representatives, delegates to
1 that congress, from the various republics. That effectively ended
2 one-party rule in Yugoslavia and opened the way for multiparty elections
3 in the various republics.
4 1990 just happened to be an election year in Yugoslavia, the
5 previous elections having been four years earlier. And one of the issues
6 during the decade prior to that within Yugoslavia had been the issue of
7 the nature of the political system and whether it should be transformed
8 into a multiparty system. The pressure for that was now -- proved to be
9 irresistible. Multiparty elections were scheduled in the various
10 republics. They took -- multiparty elections took place in Slovenia
11 first, on the 8th of April 1990, followed by Croatia on the 22nd of April.
12 Both sets of elections resulted in severe defeats for the communist --
13 leagues of communists in those republics and brought to power
14 nationalistic parties in both of those republics who were by no means
15 committed to the continued existence of Yugoslavia.
16 Now, in Bosnia, in February 1990, a law had been passed which
17 permitted the founding of noncommunist political parties. However, there
18 was a clause in that law which forbade any political associations founded
19 on an ethnic or religious basis, which proved to be controversial. That
20 clause was overturned by the constitutional court on the 11th of June
21 1990. And at the end of July 1990, the 31st of July, a package of
22 constitutional amendments to the constitution of BH came into force which,
23 in effect, abolished the monopoly of the League of Communists, dismantled
24 the communists' ideological provisions of the constitution, guaranteed the
25 right of free political association, and it also had a couple of other
1 interesting clauses which became the subject of some controversy later on,
2 so I will allude to them.
3 Amendment 60 defined Bosnia-Herzegovina as a democratic sovereign
4 state of its citizens and peoples and named the Muslim, Serbian, and
5 Croatian peoples. It also, in Amendment 62, specified that the territory
6 of BH was indivisible, and the boundaries of the republic could only be
7 changed at a referendum of the citizens with a two-thirds majority.
8 At any rate, the way was open for the founding of noncommunist
9 political parties and for the holding of multiparty elections. In fact,
10 on the 6th of August, elections were scheduled for the 18th of November.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Treanor, I don't know whether this is a suitable
12 moment to stop you. But I look at the clock, it's 7.00 o'clock. We have
13 to finish. And you showed already -- a limited time, but if you have one
14 or two more sentences.
15 THE WITNESS: A few more minutes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but certainly not more, because it's not just
17 us, it's also the interpreters and the technicians who assist us.
18 Please --
19 THE WITNESS: The foundation of the noncommunist political parties
20 had already begun. On the 26th of May 1990, the SDA, the party of
21 democratic action, was formed. That was before the constitutional court
22 rulings, so its name does not carry an ethnic appellation, but it was
23 certainly based on the concerns of the Muslim people, and it was -- it
24 came out for -- in its programme for the maintenance of BH within its
25 present borders.
1 I'll just mention the HDZ before we get on to the SDS, where we
2 can pick up tomorrow. The HDZ was founded on the 18th of August in 1990
3 as the Croatian National Party in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And on the primary
4 issue of the day, that is, the future of BH, its position was that BH
5 should be enabled to exercise the right of self-determination up to and
6 including secession from Yugoslavia. So that is the context in which the
7 SDS, the Serbian Democratic Party. Was founded in July 1990.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Treanor.
9 We'll adjourn. We'll continue tomorrow in the afternoon, quarter
10 past 2.00 in this same courtroom. I instruct you not to speak with
11 anyone, not even someone in the office of your employer, about your
12 testimony that you have given in this Court and you're still about to give
13 in this Court.
14 If there's nothing else to be raised by the parties, we'll adjourn
15 until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00.
16 [The witness stands down]
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Friday, the 20th day of
19 February, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.