1 Tuesday, 24 February 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Momcilo Krajisnik.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Is the Prosecution ready to continue examination of Mr. Treanor?
11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Usher, would you please be so kind to bring
13 Mr. Treanor into the courtroom.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Treanor.
16 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Although it might sound as a routine, of course, it
18 never will be a routine when I remind you --
19 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I'm getting --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you--
21 THE WITNESS: -- the wrong language here.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you're still on 0 instead of 4. Is that ...
23 Yes. Mr. Treanor, I said that although it might sound as a routine, of
24 course, it never could be a routine when I remind you that you're still
25 bound by the solemn declaration.
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, of course.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You made at the beginning of your testimony.
3 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, if I might
5 address the Court briefly.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
7 MR. TIEGER: I gave some consideration to the Court's comments
8 yesterday and to the possibility of adopting an approach that might move
9 us more expeditiously through this process. In that connection, I wanted
10 to note that in addition to selecting documents from an enormous mass of
11 material to be identified for the Court, Mr. Treanor also identified
12 segments or highlights of those documents which merit particular attention
13 and should be brought to the particular attention of the Court. That
14 process, of course, should be used to assist the Court in assessing these
15 large volumes of information. It occurred to me that we might, therefore,
16 move through the highlighted segments that Mr. Treanor has identified in a
17 manner somewhat similar to the fashion that we have approached the
18 intercepts with multiple segments, and that is to move through them
19 serially, to pause at each one in the event that Mr. Treanor wished to
20 make a comment, or alternatively, to run through the entire case of the
21 intercepts, entire clips, in the case of the documents, the entire
22 highlights, and then invite his comments at the end. In that manner, the
23 Court has the benefit of viewing those portions of the document that
24 Mr. Treanor has previously indicated warrant such attention. That will
25 assist the Court not only in the process of this examination, but in
1 reviewing the document subsequently, and we will be able to take advantage
2 of the considerable work that Mr. Treanor has invested before assuming the
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There's one difference between the intercepts
5 and the portions of documents, Mr. Tieger, and that's the following: When
6 we are listening to the intercepts, for those who speak English, the text
7 appears. For those who do not speak English, they can listen to what has
8 been said, and therefore, under these circumstances, we could just ask
9 Mr. Treanor to give his comments. But if we're looking at documents, of
10 course, the Chamber could read usually even more quickly than Mr. Treanor
11 than reads a specific part. So therefore, if it was just for the Chamber,
12 we could -- we could just hear the comment of Mr. Treanor and that would,
13 under normal circumstances, be sufficient, because we can read the text,
14 but the public character of this trial requires that not only the Judges
15 understand what it's all about, but also that those who are following this
16 trial also can understand what it's all about. So therefore, I asked for
17 the specific, I would say, the -- in one or two lines just the main
18 content of that part of a document, without it being read out in total.
19 So I -- of course, the Chamber certainly is assisted by the
20 investment in understanding these documents made by Mr. Treanor and by
21 explaining, but one of my concerns is how we could move forward with such
22 speed that we don't lose any time, and at the same time, a guarantee that
23 the public will be aware what we are talking about.
24 MR. TIEGER: I share the Court's concern in that regard, Your
25 Honour, and I did not intend to suggest that we would move through the
1 highlighted portions so quickly that they would not be identified in a
2 sufficient manner.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Let's try and see where we get. Please
5 WITNESS: PATRICK TREANOR [Resumed]
6 Examined by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]
7 Q. Mr. Treanor, at the conclusion of yesterday's session, you were
8 discussing the October 24th founding session of the Serbian Assembly, and
9 I believe you had reviewed and discussed the introductory remarks of
10 Mr. Krajisnik. If we could move, then, to the next highlighted segment.
11 MR. TIEGER: That can be found on page 38 of the English
12 translation of the October 24th assembly.
13 Q. Here we see Mr. Kostic speaking, and you have highlighted the
14 first two -- first three full paragraphs contained on page 39 of the
15 English translation.
16 A. Yes. Is it my understanding that the Court and others in the
17 courtroom will now be reading these highlighted portions?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just move to the right button. I think
19 if we -- if you try to give -- we read it, and at the same time you could
20 give, in very short terms, what this portion is about. Yes.
21 THE WITNESS: I would just like to say that the speaker at this
22 point, according to the -- a correction on the record that I have and
23 another record we have of this session is in fact Mr. Stanko Cvijan, who
24 is the minister for relations with Serbs outside of Serbia of the Republic
25 of Serbia. In his address here, he expresses his support and approval of
1 what the Bosnian Serb delegates are doing and reviews the sufferings of
2 the Serbian people as a whole in the past and the revival of their
3 political fortunes in the present.
4 MR. TIEGER:
5 Q. If we could turn to the next clip. Highlighted on screen are the
6 latter two paragraphs. Are those also embraced by the explanation you
7 just provided?
8 A. Yes, indeed. And the Court will note the -- a reference to the
9 genocide committed during World War II in this passage. That will come up
10 later in this session.
11 Q. If we could turn to page 44 of the English translation, the next
12 highlighted portion. Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted the last full
13 paragraph of the English translation at page 44. I believe the speaker is
14 Mr. Koljevic.
15 A. Yes, that's correct. This is Mr. Koljevic speaking now, in a --
16 in fairly lengthy remarks. In this portion, he speaks of the desire of
17 the Bosnian Serbs to create a new Yugoslavia, one that suits them, and
18 notes that even outside of the type of Yugoslavia they have in mind, over
19 at least half a million Serbs will be left outside of that new Yugoslavia.
20 Q. The next highlight is found at page 47 of the English translation.
21 And we'll continue on to page 48. Can you tell us who that speaker is and
22 why you highlighted that portion.
23 A. Speaking at this point is Dr. Karadzic. In his remarks, he
24 addresses what he sees as a plan by outside forces, which is indeed coming
25 to fruition, to dissolve Yugoslavia. He makes reference, I think in the
1 previous paragraph -- well, in this paragraph, to the same plans, the same
2 villains, and the same crimes. Again, this is a reference to the genocide
3 during World War II, which he seems to be suggesting is also being planned
4 in the present.
5 Q. Now, on that same page, page 48, there are the last three
6 paragraphs of that page, comprising most of that page are also highlighted
7 and if you can explain their significance, please.
8 A. In this portion of his speech, Dr. Karadzic in general is saying
9 that the Serbian people now knows its path forward, but emphasises that
10 they have never been the ones to take the first step, that they have, in
11 effect, always responded to moves that were first made by others. I think
12 this is a theme that we have seen in some of the earlier documents where
13 Dr. Karadzic refers to waiting for other people to make the first move and
14 then they will respond to that move as they have already planned.
15 Q. If we turn to page 49, the next page of the English translation.
16 You have highlighted the first paragraph of that page. And would you
17 explain its significance, please.
18 A. This is more on the theme of the -- theme of the revival of the
19 Serbian people.
20 Q. And the historic step to which Dr. Karadzic refers?
21 A. I think at this point he is referring to the establishment of the
23 Q. Dr. Karadzic also refers in this segment to the shattering of last
24 illusions, to discerning between friends and enemies and to the refusal to
25 allow traitors to deliver us into the hands of our enemies. Are these
1 themes that will be repeated in subsequent speeches by Dr. Karadzic and
2 other Bosnian Serb leaders?
3 A. Yes. I think we will see similar thoughts occurring from this
4 point in, certainly.
5 Q. Next highlighted segment can be found on page 50 of the English
6 translation. First of all, is this still Dr. Karadzic speaking?
7 A. Yes. And here he gets back to the theme of the outside forces
8 working for the destruction of Yugoslavia.
9 Q. I believe the remainder of the highlighted sections of the
10 founding assembly refer to decisions made during the course of that
11 assembly. If we could --
12 A. Yes, that's correct. This session of the assembly made several
13 very important decisions.
14 Q. Looking at page 77 of the English translation, is that one of the
15 decisions to which you referred?
16 A. Yes. Here we see the portion in the record that records the
17 election of Mr. Krajisnik as president of the new Assembly, Assembly of
18 the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
19 Q. And it's -- I'm sorry.
20 A. This and the other decisions were published in the Official
21 Gazette, which the Assembly also founded.
22 Q. The next highlighted segment appears beginning at the bottom of
23 page 79 of the English translation and continues onto the first half of
24 page 80. Page 80 is now shown on your screen, Mr. Treanor. If you could
25 explain that, please.
1 A. Yes. This is a decision on the remaining of the Serbian people of
2 in BH within Yugoslavia, and as you can see in paragraph 1, refers to the
3 composition of the Yugoslavia, that they are anxious to remain within.
4 Basically, the Serbian portions of Yugoslavia. And I would call attention
5 to paragraph 2, which states that this decision comes into force only
6 after being confirmed at the plebiscite to the Serbian people, which we've
7 referred to yesterday, and this Assembly adopted a decision of holding
8 such a plebiscite at this session as well.
9 Q. Turning now to pages 81 and 82 of the English translation, do we
10 see further decisions made during the course of that assembly?
11 A. Yes. This is a decision on designating representatives for the
12 Serbian people of BH, as we discussed yesterday, pursuant to the actions
13 of the BH Assembly, which the Bosnian Serbs -- of October 15th, which the
14 Bosnian Serb delegates, that is, the SDS and SPO delegates, regarded as
15 being illegal and illegitimate. They were anxious to have their own
16 representatives in various forums. The people they have designated as
17 representatives in the different forums are listed here. I think further
18 down we'll see that Dr. Karadzic is designated as a representative for the
19 SFRY Presidency. Yesterday I referred to the -- one of the resolutions
20 adopted on October 15th by the Bosnian Serb Assembly, which in effect
21 withdrew Bosnian representatives from the federal institutions, including
22 the Presidency. Reference was made yesterday to Mr. Bogicevic, who was
23 the Bosnian member of the Federal Presidency, who attended a session of
24 that body for the last time on, I believe, October the 1st, and thereafter
25 withdrew his participation, in conformity with the resolution adopted on
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 October 15th. And it seemed to be the intention here of the Assembly of
2 the Serbian People that Dr. Karadzic, in effect, take his place in the
3 SFRY Presidency.
4 Q. The final highlighted segment of the October 24th founding
5 assembly is found on page 85 of the English translation. In the second
6 half of that page, as Mr. Cancar speaks about the plebiscite, if you could
7 illuminate that, please.
8 A. Yes. This is the portion in the record of the session at which
9 the -- this particular resolution is read out and then put up for
10 adoption. This is the resolution calling for the plebiscite. If we could
11 stop for a minute and go back a bit to paragraph 2, I would call the
12 Court's attention in particular, in paragraph 2 to the quoted portion,
13 which is the question which will be put to people at the plebiscite.
14 You'll recall the decision of the Assembly that we saw earlier about
15 remaining within Yugoslavia that -- and that decision itself was made
16 contingent on its confirmation at the plebiscite, which here is scheduled
17 for the 10th of November.
18 Q. Mr. Treanor, that completes the highlighted segments for the
19 founding assembly. Before we move on to the next document, if you have
20 any additional comments about the assembly itself or the context in which
21 it occurred, I invite you to make them; otherwise, we'll move on.
22 A. Maybe I'll just repeat what I said yesterday. This is an
23 extremely important event in the development of the policy of the
24 leadership of the Serbian Democratic Party. Here we have formed, in
25 effect, the Chamber of the Serbian People, which, as we have seen from
1 previous documents, they had been seeking for over a year. This body has,
2 certainly in their view, much more legitimacy than, for instance, the
3 Serbian National Council, which we referred to, which was formed a year
4 before and which had a rather short-lived and not too eventful existence.
5 This body is composed of deputies to the duly elected Bosnian Assembly,
6 that is, deputies elected in the elections of 1990; therefore, duly
7 elected representatives of that body, unlike, say, the Serbian National
8 Council, which was self-created. And they have announced their intention
9 that -- I don't know if we're going to be showing this document, but they
10 also adopted a resolution on their own founding, that is, the founding of
11 the Assembly, in which they define this new Assembly as the highest
12 representative and legislative organ of the Serbian people in BH.
13 From this point on in the presentation, we will -- for quite some
14 time, we will in effect be moving from session to session of this
15 Assembly, which, from this point on, is the main forum for decision-making
16 by the SDS leadership and the Bosnian leadership -- Bosnian Serb
17 leadership as a whole.
18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, the next document can be found at
19 tab 54, in binder 4. I'm not sure you have that binder, and it may need
20 to be distributed.
21 Q. Mr. Treanor, we see on screen a document entitled, "Decision for
22 the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina to remain in the joint state
23 of Yugoslavia," dated 24 October 1991.
24 A. Yes. This is -- appears to be, and I judge by the Arabic
25 numeral II in the upper left-hand corner, a translation of this decision
1 as it appeared in the Official Gazette of the Serbian people in Bosnia and
2 Herzegovina. The first issue of which was published on the 15th of
3 January, 1992. This is basically the same text that we saw in the record
4 of the session.
5 Q. The next document is found at tab 55. This document now displayed
6 on screen, Mr. Treanor, bears the title, "The Sarajevo SDS order." It
7 bears a date of October 29th, 1991, and the place is Celinac. If you
8 could address its significance, please.
9 A. Yes. This document reflects instructions which Dr. Karadzic gave
10 at a meeting on the 26th of October, 1991, in Banja Luka, a meeting
11 apparently of the leaders from the Autonomous Region of Krajina. And it
12 reflects his -- some of his concerns at this particular point in time. I
13 would call attention to the highlighted portions which deal with the
14 familiar -- by now familiar issue of mobilisation. In paragraph 8, we see
15 the reference to building licences, again a reflection of their concern
16 about -- I think of their concern about non-Serbs moving into Serb areas,
17 something we've seen before. Reference again to any paramilitary
18 organisations, that is, irregular armed formations, brought under control
19 or disbanded.
20 Q. And the reference to transfer into the territorial army, is that a
21 reference to the territorial army --
22 A. That's a reference to the Territorial Defence, which is the -- one
23 of the mainstays of the Yugoslav defence system. I don't know if I need
24 to elucidate on that, what the Territorial Defence is. That is a reserve
25 force, if I can put it that way, which was organised within each republic
1 on various levels within the republic, responsible -- all units in the
2 republic responsible to a republic Territorial Defence staff which was
3 funded by the Ministry of Defence of the given republic, and the
4 Territorial Defence was organised in units all the way from republic, they
5 had their own regional structure, regional staffs, down to municipal
6 level, and it included mobile units as well as stationary units in
7 particular factories, other institutions, for the site defence of those
9 Q. And for the record, before leaving that document, first of all,
10 identify the person who signed or sent the fax.
11 A. Yes. This was sent by Mr. Brdjanin, who we have already referred
12 to several times. He was, in fact, the first vice-president of the
13 Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and here he's described as
14 being the coordinator for implementation of decisions. I would draw
15 attention to one other paragraph in the order, simply because it's a
16 concern that comes up in a later document, paragraph number 5, which
17 refers to taking power in public enterprises, et cetera. I think we'll be
18 seeing expressions of concern on Dr. Karadzic's part in a document we'll
19 see very soon in that area.
20 Q. And so the record is clear, the highlighted portions include
21 numbers -- enumerated sentences and instructions numbers 1, 2, 8, and 12.
22 Number 1 to form commands and institute permanent watch immediately;
23 number 2, to institute full mobility of the territorial army; number 8, to
24 postpone issuance of building licences, et cetera; and number 12, the
25 excerpt related to the paramilitary formations in the Territorial Defence
1 that you referred to earlier.
2 If we could move, then, to the next document, which is an
3 intercepted telephone conversation which may be found at tab 19 of the
4 intercepts binder. This is a conversation between Mr. Krajisnik and
5 Dr. Karadzic.
6 A. Yes, that's correct. And they discuss what they perceive to be
7 the main tasks before them at the present time.
8 [Intercept played]
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. Mr. Treanor, you began to identify the reasons for your selection
11 of that intercept before it was played. If you could continue, please.
12 A. Yes. As we can see here, once again, there are problems
13 restraining -- there appear to be problems restraining the enthusiasm of
14 other people within the SDS, and Mr. Krajisnik identifies as being the
15 main task the smashing of centralism within BH and establishing control by
16 the Serbs over their own territory. The two of them seem to agree that
17 they are -- they have their path marked out and they don't want to be
18 diverted from it by premature or overenthusiastic moves by other people in
19 the leadership.
20 MS. LOUKAS: Before we move on, I was just wondering if it could
21 be clarified what is the actual date of the conversation. Because what
22 appeared on the screen appeared to have a date of the 29th of October, and
23 the hard copy has the 10th of October.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If you would compare the B/C/S original and the
25 English translation, then you see that the dates are different where --
1 although I do not speak any B/C/S, where, in the heading, it says a
2 conversation on the 10th of October in English, where the original says
3 the 29th of October.
4 Mr. Tieger, is this a translation error or ...
5 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. I was just about to identify that
6 discrepancy and ask the witness if that was simply a typo in the
7 transcription from B/C/S to English, or otherwise.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please ask the witness.
9 THE WITNESS: Well, about all I can say is that in my copy of the
10 B/C/S, it says the 29th of October.
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. And from the context, Mr. Treanor, do you have any reason to think
13 that the B/C/S date, or the -- is incorrect and that the English
14 translation -- or that the date appearing in the English translation is
15 anything other than a typographical error?
16 A. At this point I don't have any reason to believe that it's
17 anything other than the 29th.
18 Q. Mr. Treanor, if we could move next to a speech given by
19 Dr. Karadzic in November of 1991, entitled, "Plebiscite of the Serbian
21 A. Yes. This is a speech which I believe in fact was given on the
22 31st of October, which was a Thursday, at a meeting which we know took
23 place from various diaries we have at 4.30 in the afternoon in the Holiday
24 Inn in Sarajevo. It was a meeting related to plebiscite issues. And
25 internal evidence in the document indicates that it was given before the
1 1st of November, and there are references to certain television
2 appearances and whatnot that took place around the time we're referring
3 to, the very end of October. And as I say, the diaries indicate that
4 there was a meeting related to this topic on the afternoon of the 31st.
5 So I believe that the speech was given then. In the speech, Dr. Karadzic
6 addresses the general situation within BH and then moves on to address
7 particular issues in connection with the plebiscite and the conducting of
8 the plebiscite. Present at the meeting, from internal evidence, are
9 municipal officials from around BH. Whether they are both party and state
10 officials isn't specified, but I would presume so, and there would include
11 state officials from the municipalities in which the SDS was in power and
12 party officials, at least from those in which it was not in power, but
13 anyways, the people who were going to be responsible for conducting the
14 plebiscite on the ground.
15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, as the members of the Chamber seem to
16 be aware, this is found at tab 56 of binder 4.
17 Q. Mr. Treanor, if we could move to the first --
18 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one thing, Mr. Tieger.
19 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber, at least I've been provided also with
21 the CD-ROM on which it seems that most of these documents appear, but I
22 can find some of them on the basis of the numbers on the bottom or on the
23 top of the page. But some of them, I can't find on that CD-ROM. I don't
24 know how the numbering is done. But, for example, the document under
25 tab 56, I see on the bottom 0027 and then 0630. But I can't find that on
1 my CD-ROM, and I think it's a very helpful instrument if you -- some of
2 the other documents I could find. For example, the transcript of the
3 telephone conversation we just listened to. I find that in the numerical
4 order as it appears on the index, but ... Could someone guide me how to
5 find 55 and now 57?
6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I don't have a key with me at the moment
7 that would permit me to answer that specific question.
8 JUDGE ORIE: If you could prepare that perhaps during the next
9 break, because some of them, they're quite easily to be retrieved, where
10 others -- for example, here, 57, I find no numbers that give me a clue
11 where to find it on the CD-ROM.
12 Please proceed, and we'll solve the matter during the next break,
13 I take it.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. Mr. Treanor, if we could move to the first highlighted segment,
16 which is a sentence contained -- or it's the portion of the third full
17 paragraph on the first page which begins, "This is Broz's legacy."
18 A. Yes. What is important here is, in particular, the sentence about
19 the Muslim brothers, which indicates Dr. Karadzic's attitude, something of
20 his attitude toward them at this point.
21 Q. The next highlighted segment appears in the first paragraph of
22 page 4 of the English translation and begins: "I am kindly asking you, I
23 have seen it not only in Krajina but also in Pale, you should seize power
24 completely and energetically."
25 A. Yes. Now, here's a reference to the point that I mentioned
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 earlier in the -- we saw in the 29 October fax. Here he's referring to
2 the -- his perception that in the municipalities that the SDS controls,
3 they haven't gone far enough in putting their own people into the various
4 positions, in particular, in public enterprises that those municipalities
5 control. He seems to think there are too many holdovers from the
6 communist period who are not loyal to the SDS and that sort of thing, and
7 therefore enjoins his people, as in the 29 October fax, of his
8 instructions of the 26th of October, to address themselves to this area,
9 as he puts it here, to seize power completely and energetically.
10 Q. If we could turn to page 5 of the English translation. The first
11 highlighted segment is the fourth paragraph of that page, which
12 begins: "There is a chance that we will fight. In that case, let the
13 chips fall where they may."
14 A. Yes. In this portion, Dr. Karadzic refers to his belief that the
15 Serbs are better armed than their opponents and makes remarks as to what
16 he foresees could be the consequences should hostilities actually break
17 out in Bosnia.
18 Q. And he -- he indicates that no one could stop the almost half a
19 million soldiers who could be mobilised and armed?
20 A. Yes, I believe it says that.
21 Q. The next highlighted segment is found in the last paragraph of
22 that page and continues on to page 6.
23 A. Here Dr. Karadzic refers to some of the demographic concerns of
24 the Bosnian Serb leadership, in this case, in particular, the influx -- or
25 they perceive to be an influx of immigrants, Muslim immigrants from
1 outside of Bosnia.
2 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one thing: One time it says
3 "immigrants," another time is says "emigrants." Is that a mistake or did
4 you check that? It seems to be more logical in the context that it's
5 about immigrants, but ... You see in the first line of this paragraph, you
6 see "immigrants," whereas on the third line, you see "emigrants."
7 THE WITNESS: The original is not extremely legible. Perhaps I
8 should leave that for the break and I could try to identify those words.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 THE WITNESS: -- in the original.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please then proceed.
12 MR. TIEGER:
13 Q. And if we could continue with that highlighted portion on the top
14 of page 6.
15 A. Here we see a reference to the land issue again.
16 Q. And in that passage, Dr. Karadzic indicates that no Muslim
17 foundations will be laid in Serb areas, whether or not, "Turks are
18 imported, because the first foundations will be blown up and all
19 foundations that are laid will be blown up," is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If we could turn next to the next highlighted segment, which
22 appears in the same page, page 6, and begins: "They are implementing a
23 demographic policy here, but we will be implementing one too, and the
24 whole world will understand that."
25 A. Yes. This is more on the demographic concerns of the Bosnian Serb
1 leadership, the land issue is referred to again and mention is made of a
2 battle for living space and the fear that, within ten years, in BH, the
3 Muslims would have an absolute majority in BH. He also refers to what he
4 perceives as the discrimination that Serbs are subjected to, in
5 employment, for instance.
6 Q. And that's a reference to the passage where Dr. Karadzic refers to
7 75 per cent of the doctors are Muslims and 75 per cent of the cleaning
8 women are Serbs?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The next highlighted segment can be found at page 7. It is the
11 latter part of the third full paragraph, beginning: "But there has to be
12 a little discipline once the policy is established."
13 A. Yes. Well, this is Dr. Karadzic, as party leader, once again,
14 enjoining discipline and hard work on the part of his subordinates.
15 Q. You indicated previously he was addressing various municipal
16 leaders, among others. Does he identify for them who the leaders of the
17 Bosnian Serbs are who are working on the project he's describing?
18 A. Yes, indeed. He singles out his leadership team, if you will,
19 including Mrs. Plavsic, Mr. Koljevic, and Mr. Krajisnik, and the deputies.
20 Q. Next highlighted segment can be found on page 8 of the English
21 translation. That appears in the last paragraph of that page and
22 begins: "We no longer need an obsolete type of state," and ends, "But if
23 we don't manage to, the ladies will, excuse the expression, mark our
24 territory like dogs then nothing will come of it."
25 A. Yes. The theme of this passage is getting control by the Bosnian
1 Serbs of their own territory.
2 Q. And in connection with control of that territory, does
3 Dr. Karadzic go on to speak about identifying that territory with maps,
4 and can that be found on page 9 of the English translation?
5 A. Yes. Now, here we see a reference, indeed, to maps and the
6 plebiscite. There's a reference to the blue map. Now, I'm not positive
7 which map is being referred to; however, I believe that what is in
8 question here is an ethnographic map of Bosnia-Herzegovina which was
9 produced, I believe, in Belgrade, on the basis of the results of the 1991
10 census. On that map, the predominantly Serb areas of BH are shown in
11 blue, and the visual impression of the map overall is rather one of
12 blueness. So I believe that's why he describes it here as, "The blue
14 Q. And this is the highlighted segment that begins: "There will be
15 huge interest in our plebiscite," and in which Dr. Karadzic indicates that
16 he took the blue map to the military and said: "Here is a map for you so
17 that you can -- so that you know where you can spend the night. Wherever
18 it is blue, you can spend the night; in the other parts, there is no
19 staying overnight there," followed by applause?
20 A. Yes. Indeed, the reference in the previous passage to what is
21 ours is ours is perhaps connected with this, could be put as whatever is
22 blue is ours.
23 Q. And if we can turn to the next highlighted segment, which begins
24 in the second paragraph of that page and continues to the bottom of the
25 page and on into page 10.
1 A. Yes. This is a long discussion of -- to the municipal officials,
2 on how they should conduct themselves, and especially in the area of
4 Q. Does he indicate who the commanders of the towns are?
5 A. He describes the presidents, I believe he's referring to the
6 presidents of the municipal assemblies as the commanders of the towns.
7 I'm not quite sure how true that was technically under the Territorial
8 Defence set-up.
9 Q. And that passage continues on to the beginning of the next page,
10 page 10.
11 A. And here we see, at the end of the previous passage, reference to
12 regionalisation, and here we see a reference to the plebiscite of 1920 in
13 Carinthia. This was an analogy that they frequently use when describing
14 their own plebiscite. In 1920, after the World War I, and in pursuance
15 the various treaties that were concluded after that war, a plebiscite was
16 held among the Slovenes in the Austrian province of Carinthia as to
17 whether they wanted to join Yugoslavia. They voted against joining
18 Yugoslavia and remained in Austria, which Slovene nationalists would say
19 turned out to be to the detriment of their national identity. However,
20 this brings up the use of the word "plebiscite" in connection with the
21 polling that they're going to be taking. As we saw in an earlier
22 document, for instance, Dr. Karadzic telling Mr. Brdjanin that, no, no, we
23 don't need a referendum. A referendum is for people that want to leave
24 Yugoslavia. We're not leaving Yugoslavia. We're staying. And anyways,
25 in a referendum, you need a two-thirds majority.
1 So I think that they deliberately did not call this a referendum,
2 but rather a plebiscite in order to distinguish it from the procedure that
3 was specified in the constitution for changing the boundaries, for
4 instance, of BH, via a referendum that required a two-thirds majority.
5 Q. The next highlighted segment appears in the first full paragraph
6 of page 10 and begins: "The right is in our hands and so is the factual
7 situation, and the factual situation is that it will be impossible for
8 Izetbegovic to establish his authority in 70 per cent of the territory."
9 A. Yes. This is another indication of the extent of the SDS
10 leadership's claims to BH territory. Yesterday we saw reference to 65
11 per cent. I think I promised that we'd see that figure again. I think we
12 will, but here we see 70 per cent.
13 Q. And the next highlight appears further on in the page, at the
14 beginning of the second full paragraph, and discusses the army and the
15 fact that their aims and our aims, according to Dr. Karadzic, coincide 100
16 per cent.
17 A. Yes. This is reference to the -- what he sees as the strong
18 military position of the Serbs. They have the army behind them, and the
19 Serbs have been asking for weapons for themselves. And as he said, they
20 got themselves a lot.
21 Q. And the final clip of the plebiscite speech can be found on
22 page 11 of the English translation. In the first full paragraph, and
23 begins: "So I am asking you, there are two big jobs, two big tasks," and
24 concludes: "If you look at the map, we have a huge territory in BH, a
25 huge territory."
1 A. Yes. Well, here we see the -- two of the themes in the speech
2 joined: First job, get the plebiscite done, and after the plebiscite, get
3 to work on consolidating power in the municipalities that they control.
4 He, in this speech, advised that it wasn't such a good idea right before
5 the plebiscite to get people all excited about the fact that they may be
6 losing their jobs, and this, that, and the other thing, that is,
7 present-day directors and those sorts of officials, and thereby arouse
8 opposition just before the plebiscite, at a time when they want to keep
9 things peaceful and on an even keel and get as large a turnout as
10 possible, but to what until after the plebiscite to carry on with the
11 consolidation of power.
12 Q. Mr. Treanor, the next selection is an intercepted telephone
13 conversation which occurred after the date of the plebiscite but refers to
14 it. Do you want to address the results of the plebiscite before we begin
15 that intercept or after it's played?
16 A. Well, let me find my report of the plebiscite. I think this would
17 be a good time to do that, indeed. Now, the plebiscite took place, in
18 fact, on the 9th and 10th of November. I think there were various
19 international observers present, that sort of thing. It was a big
20 occasion. The plebiscite was, of course, meant to reinforce the stand
21 taken by the Bosnian Serb Assembly against the decisions carried out
22 against its will of the BH Assembly in relation to the status of BH. The
23 plebiscite and its results got to be a mantra for the Bosnian Serb
24 leadership. In the months to come, they referred continuously to the
25 plebiscite and its results as enjoining on them a particular policy, that
1 is, the remaining of the Serbs of BH within Yugoslavia, a policy mandated
2 by the people.
3 Now, the voting for the plebiscite was carried out in almost every
4 municipality in BH. In fact, every municipality apparently. Voting was
5 done according to -- first of all, according to nationality. Serbs voted
6 separately from non-Serbs. Some non-Serbs did vote. Also people who
7 lived outside of BH but came from BH were permitted to vote. And some
8 people were permitted to vote who were not in fact registered voters in BH
9 but presented ID cards at the polling stations to identify themselves. And
10 they voted as well.
11 In total, 1.162.032 citizens of Serbian nationality voted
12 according to the report of the plebiscite commission dated the 11th of
13 November. Of that total, 1.161.146 voted in favour of the plebiscite
14 question, that is, in favour of remaining in Yugoslavia. And providing
15 that their math is correct, that meant for the benefit of the Court, to
16 spare them the subtraction, that 398 people voted against, and there were
17 488 invalid ballots.
18 The tally for people of Serbian nationality outside of BH who
19 voted is similar, even more overwhelming. Out of 348.231 people, only two
20 voted against. Similarly, out of 49.342 citizens who were not of Serbian
21 nationality and voted in the plebiscite, a total of 397 voted against and
22 there were 50 invalid ballots.
23 So the plebiscite seemed to provide overwhelming support,
24 certainly among the Bosnian Serbs, for the position adopted by the
25 Assembly, that is, that they would remain within Yugoslavia.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. If we could turn now to an intercepted telephone conversation --
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. -- which may be found at tab 20 of the intercept binder.
5 JUDGE CANIVELL: Excuse me. I want to call your attention to the
6 fact that in the records it's been said that the total of citizens that
7 voted was 1.136.000 and then those that voted yes was 1.161.000. That
8 means 25.000 more -- or the number of the voters. That seems to have been
9 a mistake. Would you please verify that? Has been something that was
10 not well understood by Mr. Treanor.
11 THE WITNESS: Certainly. Just to repeat, Your Honour. The number
12 of citizens of Serbian nationality who voted in the plebiscite according
13 to the report of the plebiscite commission was 1.162.032. The number --
14 JUDGE CANIVELL: That's a mistake here, because it appears to have
15 been 1.136.000, and now you had said 160 something, so perhaps that's --
16 there is a written mistake.
17 THE WITNESS: I'm looking at the original documents, so I don't
18 know what might be on the translation.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. Just to repeat for the record, Mr. Treanor: The last
21 clarification you offered indicated 1.162.032 voting total, and the number
22 of voting for the proposition was 1.161.146. These are the citizens of
23 Serbian nationality.
24 JUDGE CANIVELL: So that has clarified that. Thank you.
25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: May I add something to that. I would not have
2 intervened if there would have been no confusion. What Mr. Treanor tells
3 us could be said in one or two lines, that is, that an almost hundred
4 per cent vote in favour by the Serbian voters and in the far smaller
5 number of non-Serbian voters, it was also close to a hundred per cent.
6 Without the details, whether there were 32 invalid votes or 72 invalid
7 votes, of course, is not really something that assists the Chamber. Could
8 we try to concentrate on what the main issue is, the main issue is
9 overwhelming, almost hundred per cent in favour of. That's, I think that
10 assists us. The other parts, as we've seen now, even could lead to a lot
11 of confusion. Please proceed.
12 MR. TIEGER: Next, Your Honours, is the intercept I referred to
13 earlier, found at tab 20 of the intercept binder, and that is a
14 conversation between Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Dukic.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes. This is a conversation which is undated, but
16 described as taking place in November 1991. Now, from internal evidence
17 in the conversation, I believe it took place on or shortly before the 15th
18 of November. The conversation relates to the scheduling of certain
19 meetings in connection with the upcoming session of the -- the 2nd Session
20 of the Assembly of the Serbian People. One of those meetings is a meeting
21 of the Main Board, as you'll see from the clip. Now, at the time this
22 conversation took place, that meeting had not taken place at that part of
23 the point of the conversation. We have a written invitation to that
24 meeting which was issued on the 15th of November. So therefore, I would
25 conclude that this conversation took place before that invitation was sent
1 out, but shortly before.
2 [Intercept played]
3 THE WITNESS: This document is one of a series of documents, some
4 of the others of which we will be seeing. It was -- I suppose I should
5 have mentioned earlier it was preceded by a conversation between Mr. Dukic
6 and Dr. Karadzic about Mr. Dukic's interest in having a Main Board
7 meeting, and Dr. Karadzic, I believe, says, well, you should talk to
8 Mr. Krajisnik about that since we have an assembly session coming up.
9 To remind the Court, Mr. Dukic was the president of the Executive
10 Committee and one of the jobs of the Executive Committee was to prepare
11 materials for meetings of the Main Board. He refers to the fact that the
12 Main Board hasn't met for over a year. I think by that he means that
13 there has not been a session of the Main Board as such in over a year. I
14 think I referred to that earlier in my testimony, that a lot of the
15 meetings that took place were various groups of individuals meeting in
16 large numbers, and not necessarily a meeting of any particular body. He
17 wants to have a Main Board meeting in preparation for the assembly. He
18 incorrectly states that 50 per cent of the members of the Main Board were
19 members of the Assembly. I think that the number is more like a third.
20 But with that, I can we can move on.
21 MR. TIEGER:
22 Q. The next two documents you've selected, Mr. Treanor, are a
23 November 20th meeting of the Executive Board and a November 21st meeting
24 of the Main Board. If we could turn to the first, which is found at
25 tab 57 of binder 4.
1 A. Yes. These are minutes of the sixth session of the Executive
2 Board. The interest of this document and the next document, which is a
3 Main Board -- minutes of a Main Board meeting, is we can see the
4 progression of the discussion of matters from the Executive Board to the
5 Main Board, and from there, to the Bosnian Serb Assembly itself, where
6 they were finally adopted.
7 Q. You've highlighted on page 2 of that document a paragraph which is
8 labelled "count 2," and discusses the materials for this third session
9 that were discussed, including the report of the plebiscite, information
10 about the activities regarding regionalisation, and so on.
11 A. Yes. These are the materials that have been prepared for the Main
12 Board meeting. Further on in that paragraph, the minutes of the Executive
13 Board note that it was concluded that the Assembly of the Serbian People
14 should make a decision on the proclamation of the constituted, that is,
15 formed, regions, which relates to one of the reports that was -- on
16 regionalisation that was going to be -- that would be put before the Main
18 Q. In tab 58 of binder 4, the record of the November 21st, 1991 Main
19 Board session is found.
20 A. Yes. Now, this -- these minutes do not state which session of the
21 Main Board this was. However, as we just saw in the previous excerpt from
22 the minutes of the Executive Board, this was the third session of the Main
23 Board. I'll just remind the Court: The new Main Board was constituted in
24 July 1991. I'm not sure when they start the numeration of meetings of the
25 Main Board, but even if we begin in July, there hadn't been more than two
1 meetings before that. Mr. Dukic had referred to a period of a year. So
2 certainly it was a fairly rare event.
3 Q. And you've highlighted the last sentence of page 1, which
4 continues on to the next page and reflects a recommendation by the Main
5 Board that the Assembly -- and then it continues on the next page: "Adopt
6 a decision that all settlements where the Serbs declared themselves in
7 favour of staying in Yugoslavia," and so on. Would you explain that.
8 A. Yes. That's correct. This is a recommendation based on the
9 results of the plebiscite. We'll be seeing that decision as it was
10 adopted at the assembly session, which in fact took place the same day, to
11 get a better idea of exactly what that decision is about. Further on in
12 this page we see reference to the recommendation that was made by the
13 Executive Board about -- concerning a decision on the Serbian regions. So
14 in this case, we can see that this decision, as I indicated earlier, a
15 recommendation has moved from the Executive Board to the Main Board, and
16 the Main Board is now passing it on to the Assembly.
17 Q. And for the record, that is the passage -- or the paragraph that
18 begins: "The Main Board of the Serbian Democratic Party in Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina recommends that the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia
20 and Herzegovina adopt a decision on the proclamation of Serbian regions."
21 If we could turn, then, to the next document, found at tab 59, the
22 second assembly of the Serbian people of Bosnia-Herzegovina, held on
23 November 21, 1991.
24 A. Yes. This is the second session of the Assembly. The main work
25 of this Assembly was to review the results of the plebiscite and hear a
1 report on the results of the plebiscite. It also adopted certain
2 decisions, one of which was in fact a decision on the verification of the
3 Serbian autonomous districts that had been proclaimed. It also adopted a
4 decision on those territories which were to be considered territory of the
5 Federal State of Yugoslavia, as foreseen in the Main Board minutes. It
6 also elected a constitutional commission, or a commission for
7 constitutional questions, of the Assembly, whose task was to draft a
8 constitution for the incipient Bosnian Serb entity, and it elected the
9 various members of that commission, one of whom was Mr. Krajisnik.
10 Q. In that session, you've highlighted two sections of an address by
11 Mr. Krajisnik. If we could turn to those quickly. The first is found on
12 page 7 of the English translation and appears immediately after he says:
13 "Ladies and gentlemen," and then says: "I am convinced that these are
14 crucial times for the survival of the Serbian people in Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina, and I would dare say, even more broadly, when it comes to the
16 Serbian people as such."
17 A. Yes. This -- his address as a whole deals with the efforts of the
18 Bosnian Serb leadership, the SDS leadership, to preserve the common state
19 of Yugoslavia to keep all the Serbs, or most of the Serbs in BH within the
20 same state as the other Serbs in Yugoslavia.
21 Q. And the second highlighted portion is found at page 12 of the
22 English translation, in which Mr. Krajisnik states: "Traitors and
23 outcasts are the most difficult opponents. We would like to send the
24 following message to all those who falter, or are neutral, weak, or
25 misguided," et cetera. "Today you still have time, tomorrow will be too
2 A. Yes. And that comes at the -- almost at the end of his fairly
3 lengthy address.
4 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I note the time. Perhaps the Court
5 would wish to break at this point.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If this would be a suitable time for you, we'll
7 have a break of 20 minutes. We'll adjourn until 10 minutes to 11.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I think I had two smaller
11 questions, one about, Mr. Treanor, that concerns you: Immigration,
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. The good news is that the
14 same word is used in the B/C/S in both places.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: It is a B/C/S word. It is not from the Latin root,
17 immigration or emigration. I would, and the translator, at least at one
18 time, did translate the word as "emigrants," that is, people leaving an
19 area. That's all I can say on that issue. It is the same word used in
20 both places.
21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour --
22 JUDGE ORIE: That was the good news, I think you said.
23 THE WITNESS: Yes. The bad news is it's emigrants. It seems like
24 it should be immigrants.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's rather illogical in the context, you would
2 THE WITNESS: It would seem to be.
3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I can add to that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. TIEGER: There's a tape of that speech. It was listened to
6 over the break. I am advised but we'll double-check when there's more
7 time, that the person who listened to it heard both words used, the
8 word "emigrant," with an E, used the first time, and the word "immigrant"
9 used the second. I know that's not necessarily a helpful clarification.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's the other way around as we read it in the
11 transcript. Because there it starts with immigrant and only in second
12 phase we have emigrant with an E. And the first time it was immigrant
13 with an I. So that even complicates matters. Well, it might not be
14 pivotal for the case as a whole, but if you could clarify the issue even
15 further, that would be great. Because now we've got so many versions. We
16 have one immigrants, emigrants, then we have emigrants, immigrants, and
17 then we have the version in the B/C/S language which two times gives
18 emigrants. It's a bit confusing.
19 MR. TIEGER: I agree, and when time permits this afternoon, we'll
20 review it.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then my second question was about the file numbering
22 on the CD.
23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, we're somewhat handicapped because
24 the -- our technical wizard is sick today, but I believe that -- well,
25 we'll certainly either replace the CD and ensure that all the documents
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 that the Court needs are contained in a single CD, or we will modify it to
2 include the documents that don't appear there. I don't think it's a
3 problem, however, with the Court's manipulation of the CD itself. I think
4 it's a problem with the content of the CD, and we're addressing that at
5 the moment.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because what I noticed, just for your
7 information and for the moment when your technical person has recovered,
8 what I see, that sometimes a number -- for example, in the transcripts of
9 telephone conversation, a number is indicated on the bottom of the page,
10 that number appears on the English translation, but if I find that number
11 on the CD, I find the corresponding B/C/S version of that same telephone
12 conversation. But many of them I cannot find at all. But we'll wait and
13 see, because CDs should assist us and not bother us.
14 MR. TIEGER: Absolutely, and we'll do our best to investigate.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 Mr. Krajisnik.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving any
19 JUDGE ORIE: It's good that you warn us. Let's first check
20 whether --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I've just got it. I've just got it.
22 My apologies.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Did you miss, Mr. Krajisnik, what was said before, or
24 was it just a short moment, or was it the whole of the conversation since
25 we started after the break that you missed?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] From the beginning. But I don't
3 need for any repetition. I will continue listening to the proceedings.
4 Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I'll just briefly inform you that we first discussed
6 the issue of emigration, immigration, and the information given to the
7 Chamber was still a bit confusing. And the second thing we discussed was
8 how to find on the CD-ROM that was provided to the Bench the files,
9 because I have some difficulties in finding them. That's what we
10 discussed, nothing else.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Treanor, you referred earlier to a number of decisions that
14 were made at the second assembly session of the Serbian People of Bosnia
15 and Herzegovina. If we could run through those very quickly. It may be
16 that no additional comment is necessary, but we should identify those for
17 the record. The first is found on page 21 of the English translation, and
18 it is a decision on the adoption of the report on the plebiscite of the
19 Serbian people of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
20 A. Yes. And I would call attention to paragraph II here. At the
21 end, it indicates that in view of the results of the plebiscite, the
22 decision of the Assembly of the 24th of October, relating to the remaining
23 of the Serbian people of BH within Yugoslavia, is -- has entered into
25 Q. The second is found at page 25 and is a decision on the
1 municipalities, local communes, and settlements where the plebiscite was
3 A. Yes. This is a decision based on the results of the plebiscite,
4 which seeks to define those areas which shall be considered to be the
5 territory of the Federal State of Yugoslavia. At the beginning of the
6 paragraph, we can see that it enumerates municipalities, local communes,
7 and settlements where the plebiscite was held. A settlement is an area
8 even smaller than a local commune. It's the smallest level of
9 census-keeping, certainly.
10 Q. And the decision --
11 A. So anywhere where more than 50 per cent of the registered citizens
12 of Serbian nationality in those areas, from a municipality down to a local
13 settlement, are henceforth to be considered part of Yugoslavia. They are
14 part of Yugoslavia, but shall remain part of Yugoslavia.
15 Q. And finally, on page 29, the decision on verification of
16 autonomous region appears.
17 A. Let me just clarify the previous thing one more time. The
18 reference to municipalities and then the local communes and settlements I
19 believe means that if a particular municipality, as a whole, voted to
20 remain within Yugoslavia, then the whole of that municipality would remain
21 within Yugoslavia. If, however, there should be a local commune or a
22 settlement in a municipality which did not so vote, perhaps because it was
23 a Serbian -- a municipality which was not a Serbian-majority municipality,
24 that the individual settlements and local communes in that municipality
25 would separately be considered as part of Yugoslavia, as opposed to the
1 rest of the territory in that municipality.
2 Q. You referred also earlier to the establishment of a constitutional
3 commission and the persons who were selected for membership in that
4 commission. If we could turn quickly to tab 60 and the minutes of the
5 assembly of November 21st. Turn to page 2 of that document. It indicates
6 the membership of the committee continuing on to page 3, where it
7 indicates, as you stated earlier, that Mr. Krajisnik was selected as
9 A. He's elected as a member.
10 Q. So if we could turn to page 6 of the English translation.
11 A. Yes. There he's indicated as chairman.
12 Q. Now, tab 61 of binder 4 --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid, although I'm very much pressed on not to
14 spend unnecessary time on something that -- in the question, you say,
15 Mr. Tieger, that Mr. Krajisnik was selected as the chairman, and the
16 answer was he was elected as a member. And the next question was on
17 page 6, that he's there indicated as a chairman. But on page 2, is he not
18 indicated as a chairman? Or in the beginning of this -- I read on page 2
19 of the minutes the session was chaired by the President of the Assembly,
20 Momcilo Krajisnik. So it's not an election, but I don't have to go to
21 page 6 to find him as a chairman or -- it's not clear to me what
22 information through the witness you want to present to the Chamber.
23 MR. TIEGER: Well, it may be best, Mr. Treanor, if you clarify the
24 appearance of the word "chairman" on page 2 and then the -- its further
25 appearance on page 6.
1 A. I'm trying to find the relevant place in the documentation,
2 without too much success at the moment.
3 Q. If I could direct your attention to the first page of the minutes
4 first, which is labelled page 2 in the English translation.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And states that the session was chaired by the President of the
7 Assembly, Momcilo Krajisnik, the chairman stated, et cetera.
8 A. Yes. This is Mr. Krajisnik, as president, as we referred to him
9 throughout this testimony, of the Assembly itself.
10 Q. And if we could then turn to page 6 of the English translation,
11 which is a continuation of the listing of the members of the
12 constitutional commission which began on page 5.
13 A. Yes. Well, this refers to the constitutional commission which is
14 being constituted, if you will, and refers in this place to Mr. Krajisnik
15 as chairman or president of that commission.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I missed your question. It was also about
17 constitutional commission. So that's my misunderstanding. It also warns
18 me that going too quickly has its disadvantages as well. I apologise.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. The next document you've selected, Mr. Treanor, is the 21 November
22 1991 conclusions. That's found at tab 61. And you've highlighted the
23 paragraph enumerated II, which refers to part of the property from the
24 joint mass media.
25 A. Yes. This reflects one of the grievances of the Bosnian Serb
1 leadership, that they felt that the media in BH was not objective in
2 reporting on their views and activities, and they were anxious to
3 establish their own media, including radio and television.
4 Q. In the second portion of that document you've highlighted appears
5 on page 2, or am I mistaken about that? Well, in any event, if I can
6 direct your attention to the document on the screen at the moment, which
7 is entitled, "Conclusions," and on which you've highlighted the first two
8 paragraphs, I and II.
9 A. Yes. This is a resolution adopted in support of the Yugoslav
10 People's Army.
11 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I believe that document is also found at
12 page 61, immediately after the document previously referred to.
13 A. Reference to defence of the common state, and in I and II, the
14 issue of mobilisation, both of which have been referred to earlier.
15 Q. The next document you've selected, Mr. Treanor, is the third
16 assembly session, which was held on December 11th, 1991.
17 A. I think we have skipped a document. We got to the decision on the
18 verification of the autonomous regions, but we never really considered it.
19 I think we went back to revisit an issue. So maybe we should put that up
21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that document is found at tab 59, on
22 page 29.
23 Q. And is the document now on screen the one you were referring to,
24 Mr. Treanor?
25 A. Yes. By this decision, the Assembly verifies the Serbian
1 autonomous districts, here in the translation referred to as regions that
2 we discussed yesterday. This decision verifies five districts. I
3 mentioned yesterday the formation of six in this decision. Two of the
4 districts, Romanija and Birac, are combined into one district, and the
5 territories of those Serbian autonomous districts are indicated with
6 varying degrees of precision. As the Court will see, for instance, in the
7 first paragraph here relating to the Autonomous Region of Krajina, there
8 are certain whole municipalities which are indicated as being part of that
9 autonomous region. We saw earlier in the documents relating to the
10 formation of the Community of Municipalities and the autonomous region
11 that various municipalities, basically, the Serbian-majority
12 municipalities, joined those bodies. But then it goes on to refer to
13 parts of other municipalities from this region with a majority Serbian
14 population. So here we see the autonomous regions expanding beyond the
15 borders of the original municipalities which joined them. And similar
16 wording is found in the definition of the territory of the other Serbian
17 autonomous regions.
18 Paragraph II of this decision, not surprisingly, defines the
19 autonomous regions as being within BH, as federal units in the common
20 state of Yugoslavia. The wording is a bit confusing. It seems to state
21 that the autonomous districts are themselves federal units within
22 Yugoslavia, on the one hand, but on the other hand, it says that they are
23 part of BH, which of course is still technically itself a federal unit
24 within Yugoslavia.
25 Q. Turning now to the 3rd assembly session held on December 11th,
2 MR. TIEGER: Again, Your Honours, that can be found at tab 62.
3 Q. Mr. Treanor, the first two portions of that assembly session that
4 you have highlighted are -- refer to Mr. Krajisnik's explanation of the
5 difference between establishing assemblies in minority municipalities and
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you wanted to guide us to page 14.
9 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour. This is precisely right.
10 A. Before I get into that, I'd like to briefly say that this 3rd
11 session held on the 11th of December considered various issues which help
12 to push forward the process of forming a separate Serbian entity in BH.
13 One of them is a recommendation for the foundation of new Serbian
14 municipalities in BH, which we'll be discussing further. There was also a
15 report made on the matter of choosing a prime minister designate for the
16 entity being formed, someone who would be responsible for forming what
17 they refer to as a Council of Ministers.
18 Now, the discussion that Mr. Krajisnik is participating at this
19 point is -- relates the agenda item on the resolution relating to the
20 founding of Serbian municipalities. There was some confusion about this
21 matter among the deputies, and he is trying to explain it to them exactly
22 where Serbian municipalities might be formed and assuring them that this
23 is a separate issue from that of the regionalisation.
24 Q. And if we can turn to the second highlighted portion which appears
25 on page 22 and 23.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. This is his remarks on the same topic, I think it's a continuation
2 of the first passage. He's explaining to them that the issue here in
3 these two passages relates to municipalities in which the Serbs are not in
4 the majority, and where they are subject to what he refers to as
5 majorisation, that is, outvoting. In other words, in the Municipal
6 Assembly, since they are not a majority, they can be outvoted and
7 decisions can be taken by that Municipal Assembly that would not be --
8 that would be contrary to the interests of the Serbian people. So it's
9 within those municipalities that he is saying that new, separate Serbian
10 municipalities should be formed.
11 Q. And that portion of the highlight ends on page 23, with the
12 sentence: "This is not in collision with regionalisation."
13 Can we turn quickly, then, to the conclusions -- or excuse me, the
14 decisions made or recommendations made at that session. That can be found
15 at tab 61 and appears on screen at the moment entitled, "Recommendation on
16 establishing Municipal Assemblies of the Serbian people in Bosnia and
18 A. Yes. Now, this resolution is framed as a recommendation.
19 Mr. Krajisnik is explaining to the deputies that it was only a
20 recommendation. Some of them had expressed the concern that, in certain
21 areas, it might not be such a good idea to do this. So they didn't want
22 to be bound by any such decision. Some of the deputies had the hope of
23 reaching agreement with the other parties in their particular areas, and
24 thereby keeping the whole of the municipality within Yugoslavia. And they
25 felt that a -- some sort of order to them, instruction to them to split
1 the municipality would be in fact contrary to the Serbian interests in
2 that area. So this is framed as a recommendation to the Deputies' Clubs
3 of the SDS within Municipal Assemblies where they do not have a majority.
4 MR. TIEGER: If I could ask the Chamber to turn back to tab 62.
5 If we can look again at the record of the session and view quickly the
6 portions of that session that you highlighted, the first of which appears
7 on page 19.
8 A. Yes. This is Mr. Milosevic, who is identified as the president of
9 the Executive Committee of the municipality of Novi Grad, which is one of
10 the Sarajevo municipalities, and he's in favour of this proposal of
11 forming Serbian municipalities as a solution to the problem of
12 immigration, which has resulted in the Serbs becoming a minority in that
13 particular municipality.
14 Q. And in that passage, you refer specifically to the influx over the
15 past ten years of between 40.000 and 50.000 of people from Sandzak?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. Although you've indicated previously the ethnicity of the people
18 from Sandzak, perhaps you can remind us again.
19 A. Well, I can only assume that the reference here is to Muslims from
20 Sandzak, which is a part of Serbia adjoining Bosnia and Herzegovina on the
21 east, which is heavily populated by Muslims.
22 Q. If we can turn to the next portion of that session that you've
23 highlighted, Mr. Treanor. That can be found at page 25. It's Mr. Vojo
24 Kupresanin speaking, and the highlighted portion is the second
25 paragraph -- second and third paragraphs.
1 A. Yes. To remind the Court: Mr. Kupresanin is not only a deputy in
2 the Assembly, but he is the president of the Assembly of the Autonomous
3 Region of Krajina, and here he is speaking in favour of the formation of
4 Serbian municipalities. The point that he addresses here is that the
5 Serbs in particular municipalities inhabit extensive portions of the
6 municipality geographically, although from the point of view of overall
7 population, they do not form a majority, due to the concentration of the
8 Muslim population in the towns.
9 Q. And in the later portion of his address, shortly thereafter, does
10 he make his point even more emphatically?
11 A. Yes. Here is another reference to living space, which we saw
12 Dr. Karadzic referring to in the run-up to the plebiscite. Fear that
13 their living space is being endangered.
14 Q. And this is the portion --
15 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one question in respect of the previous
16 part. It reads - but perhaps that's a wrong understanding - "That the
17 plebiscite has shown us accurately which territory is ours," and I see
18 that in this -- that the speaker refers to the -- some difference in
19 landownership and number of Serbs living there, sometimes the ownership up
20 to 80 per cent, 70, 80 per cent, whereas perhaps the number of Serbs is
21 not a majority of the population. Did the plebiscite indicate - and
22 that's not clear to me - anything about landownership? Those who were
23 voting, did they report on their landownership?
24 THE WITNESS: No, not that I'm aware of. What the reference is
25 to, I believe, is the fact that the plebiscite was taken and the results
1 tabulated on the basis of not only the municipality as a whole, but also
2 the local communes and populated places within municipalities. What he
3 seems to be saying here is that on the basis of the results of the
4 plebiscite, they can see which of those settlements and local communes in
5 the municipalities which are -- which have non-Serb majorities are
6 inhabited by Serbs and therefore should be their territory. The -- and he
7 seems to be saying that the total area of those particular local communes
8 in populated places, since they are rural constituencies, if you will,
9 comprise 80 per cent of the territory of Bosanska Krupa, in this case.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. Thank you for clarification.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. And just to clarify for the
13 record, the last portion, highlighted portion, from Mr. Kupresanin, to
14 which you referred, is the third paragraph from the bottom, in which he
15 says: "I personally think that our living space and territory is
16 endangered," and the last sentence of which is: "Actually, we have to
17 prevent Muslims from moving into our territories and regions."
18 A. Right. This is a reflection of the concern that we've seen many
19 times already in the course of this presentation.
20 Q. The next section that you've highlighted and to which I believe
21 you referred earlier is found at page 34.
22 A. Yes. Now, this -- these remarks are made by Mr. Miskin in the
23 course of a different point of the discussion, a different point of the
24 agenda, which is reports from various bodies on their activities. To
25 remind the Court: Mr. Miskin is the head of the SDS regionalisation
1 staff. So he gives a report on that issue, but he makes a few general
2 recommendations and remarks as well, one of them being his belief that the
3 formation of a Council of Ministers as soon as possible would assist in
4 the matters that he's concerned with.
5 Q. And that is the third paragraph, which is a single sentence, from
6 the bottom of page 34.
7 Turning to the next page, as Mr. Miskin continues, you've
8 highlighted a portion there, which is the fourth full paragraph.
9 A. Yes. Here he addresses the issue of defence and the need for
10 contingency plans in that connection.
11 Q. And the final segment that you've highlighted, Mr. Treanor, is
12 found at page 48, continuing on to page 49. And that is an address by
13 Velibor Ostojic.
14 A. Yes. Velibor Ostojic, who is the minister of information in the
15 BH government, also gives a report, and he starts out by referring again
16 to the demographic concerns that he has. The next page continues very
17 shortly the rest of that. He indicates that he -- one reason why he's not
18 in favour of the continuation of a unified state in Bosnia is because of
19 the high birth rate of the -- of non-Serbs, Muslims in particular,
20 presumably, which would mean that they would soon be outnumbered within
21 Bosnia as a whole.
22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the next document selected by
23 Mr. Treanor is the first document in binder 5. And the specific tab
24 number is 63.
25 Q. Mr. Treanor, before we look at the two highlighted portions in
1 that document, can you tell us what it represents.
2 A. Yes. This is a letter to Mr. Krajisnik, apparently it went to
3 other people as well, since his name is filled in by hand, and it delivers
4 a package of material relating to the formation of a Serbian municipality
5 in Bosanska Krupa. The decision -- the recommendation on the foundation
6 of Serbian municipalities had asked that the Bosnian Serb Assembly be
7 informed of developments in that area. So this package of material is
8 apparently being sent to Mr. Krajisnik, in fulfilment of that paragraph of
9 the recommendation, which is the last paragraph.
10 Q. First highlighted portion of that document is found on page 3 of
11 the English translation and is entitled, "Decision on verification of the
12 proclaimed Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa."
13 A. Yes. This is offered by way of example of the types of decisions
14 that were taken pursuant to the recommendation. As can be seen, this
15 decision was taken at a session. It's described as the Serbian Assembly
16 of Bosanska Krupa on the 11th of December, which is the very day that the
17 recommendation was enacted. Now, one reason why Bosanska Krupa was able
18 to act so quickly was that in fact they had already formed something that
19 they called a Serbian municipality a month or so earlier. So they were
20 all ready to meet the terms of the recommendation and hasten to adopt the
21 appropriate papers and send them to the Bosnian Serb Assembly.
22 Q. And the second highlighted section is -- appears to be the last
23 page of the document, and bears the -- in the original, as reflected in
24 the translation, apparently, the signature of the president of the Serbian
25 Municipality --
1 A. Yes, that's correct. I would also like to call attention to
2 paragraph II of this decision, Roman II, which states that the Serbian
3 Municipality, the new Serbian Municipality of Bosanska Krupa, is part of
4 the Autonomous Region of Krajina. So again we can see here that the
5 formation of the Serbian Municipalities is linked with the expansion of
6 the Serbian autonomous districts.
7 Q. Mr. Treanor, I would ask you to look next at the December 19th,
8 1991 view on the right of self-determination, which is found at tab 64,
9 and is the next document that you've selected.
10 A. Yes. This is a document which emanates from the Bosnian Serb
11 Assembly, and it is signed by Mr. Krajisnik as the president of the
12 Assembly. I haven't seen any reference to this document in the minutes of
13 any -- or the records of any of the Assembly sessions up to this point,
14 nor indeed in the next session. So it's not exactly clear to me who put
15 this together. Its content is self-explanatory from its title, but it was
16 signed by Mr. Krajisnik, and the original copy I have bears a signature
17 and a seal. It was faxed out from the Assembly -- in fact, probably using
18 a fax machine of the Assembly of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina, presumably to various people as a statement of the Serb
20 position on the issue described in the title. I would just call attention
21 to the last paragraph of this document, where we see an expression of the
22 fears of what might befall the Serbian people in BH should they not be
23 able to become masters of their own fate by establishing their own
25 Q. For the record, you're referring to the last paragraph of that
1 document, the last sentence of which reads: "Any other viewpoint would
2 bring into question the national and physical survival of the Serbian
3 people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, who in recent history have been exposed
4 to one of the worst genocides and policies of forced resettlement in
6 A. Yes, precisely.
7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, the next document can be found in the
8 intercept binder at tab 21, and that is a conversation between
9 Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Novakovic. And the clip to be played will be found
10 at page 1 of that document.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes. And just to inform the Court: Milan Novakovic
12 was a member of the SDS Main Board from Bijeljina, in north-east Bosnia.
13 [Intercept played]
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. Mr. Novakovic wanted to know what that second degree implied, and
16 perhaps you can illuminate that.
17 A. Yes. Well, Mr. Novakovic is probably concerned that things should
18 be under a little tighter control, and Dr. Karadzic assures him that he's
19 about to do something. According to the transcript, this conversation
20 took place on the 19th of December, which was a Thursday. So he refers to
21 a meeting that will take place on Friday, which is the 20th, and then to
22 an Assembly meeting, which will take place on Saturday, the 21st. To
23 remind the Court: Dr. Karadzic had already introduced a state of
24 emergency in the party on, I believe, the 18th of October.
25 He's indicating here that he's about to do something else. He
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 uses the phrase "second degree," which is one that will occur in I think
2 the next document we're about to see. Whether the second degree he's
3 referring to here is the same as the second degree referred to in that
4 document is difficult to say, but at least he's indicating that he is
5 about to take additional measures within the party to tighten control.
6 Q. And in the next document, found at tab 65, on page 59 of the
7 English translation, do we see the scheduling of the meeting you referred
9 A. Yes. This is the -- the original is a handwritten entry in the
10 diary. This is the -- an entry from the diary of Mr. Grkovic [phoen], who
11 was Dr. Karadzic's personal assistant. And in the entry for Friday, the
12 20th of December, you'll see reference to a meeting of the Main Board, at
13 1600 hours.
14 MR. TIEGER: And for the record, Your Honour, it's the -- the
15 highlight appears in the first entry on page 59. And in addition, the
16 date, Friday, 20 December 1991, is highlighted.
17 Your Honour, the next document selected by Mr. Treanor is found in
18 the next binder and at tab 66.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I take it that you're aware that the
20 Chamber has been confronted already, as far as I can see, with this
21 document, in quite some detail in -- I think during the testimony of
22 Mr. Deronjic, but -- so the -- I would say the Variant A and Variant B on
23 whether we are in a minority or a majority situation at the two different
24 stages are already known to the Chamber, and I do not remember, but I'm
25 looking to you, Ms. Loukas, that there was any cross-examination,
1 especially on the content of these documents, apart from what they -- what
2 their relevance and what their importance is, but on the existence as
4 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, just in relation to content, no,
5 there was no cross-examination in relation to that issue on the part of
6 Mr. Stewart, no.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER:
9 Q. Mr. Treanor, with that guidance in mind, and also bearing in mind
10 that another witness will be testifying in more detail about both this
11 document and the entities it gave rise to, perhaps you can give the Court
12 just a quick snapshot version of whatever aspects of the document are
13 necessary to place your presentation -- the subsequent parts of your
14 presentation in context.
15 A. Well, I'm glad to hear that the Court is familiar with this very
16 important document and that we'll be hearing more about it. I'll not
17 waste time on the specific contents of the document. I have two things
18 that I would like to point out, however, on the basis of the previous
19 documents we've seen here.
20 One is that I believe that this document was distributed at the
21 meeting of the -- what was called the meeting of the Main Board on the
22 20th of December. I base that on the fact that we see various parts of
23 this document being implemented very soon after that date. We have
24 numerous numbered copies of this document. So it's clear that it was
25 widely distributed at about this time, and that would seem to be the
1 occasion for that to have happened. Another possibility would have been
2 at the assembly session the next day. Again, on those two days, a lot of
3 people from around the country were in Sarajevo. There is no direct
4 reference to that happening in the records of the assembly session,
6 The other thing I'd like to point out is in this Variant A,
7 Variant B distinction, this relates to the issue that had come up in
8 connection with the discussion on the establishment of Serbian
9 municipalities, in which, as Mr. Krajisnik pointed out during that
10 discussion, the concern was really with municipalities in which the Serbs
11 were not in a majority, in other words, in terms of this document,
12 Variant B municipalities. Now, this document, which is a party document,
13 in fact instructs the SDS in Variant B municipalities to establish
14 assemblies of the Serbian people. In other words, what had been
15 recommended by the Bosnian Serb Assembly and framed as a recommendation is
16 now being made a party order, so to speak. I think that I can conclude my
17 remarks with that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one additional question in that respect,
19 since it has been a question during previous testimonies. These
20 instructions, the cover page says that it's Serbian Democratic Party,
21 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Main Committee. Do you have any information about
22 when and by whom exactly these instructions were adopted?
23 THE WITNESS: No. The reference is to the main -- I think what we
24 call the Main Board in our report, which is a body familiar to the Court.
25 At the end of the document, there is a reference to the Crisis Staff of
1 the SDS, which is a body. The composition and time of formation of which
2 I do not know.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we don't have -- at least you don't have
4 any information on, well, let's say, the previous day or a couple of days
5 previous to the distribution of this document, that it was adopted, which
6 perhaps you could know through minutes or -- well, whatever.
7 THE WITNESS: No. No. No.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. The next document selected by Mr. Treanor is found at tab 67. And
11 on that document, which is -- which bears the heading of the Assembly of
12 the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Sarajevo, 19 December 1991,
13 and is addressed to the government of the Serbian Autonomous District of
14 Krajina, Knin.
15 A. Yes. Now, this is a letter of congratulation and solidarity sent
16 by Mr. Krajisnik to the leaders, the Serbian leaders in the Knin area of
17 Croatia. As I mentioned yesterday, in that area, the Serbs had founded,
18 in the middle of 1990, a Community of Municipalities, and on or about, in
19 fact, 19 December 1990, had transformed that entity into a Serbian
20 Autonomous District. At this point in time, one year later, they are
21 about to, in turn, transform the Serbian Autonomous District of Krajina
22 into a Republic of Serbian Krajina. And Mr. Krajisnik has been invited to
23 the ceremonies that were going to be held on that occasion, which he was
24 unable to attend, and he expresses his solidarity in this letter.
25 Q. For the record, you've highlighted the third, fourth, and fifth
1 paragraphs of that letter, the middle paragraph of which is one sentence,
2 which reads: "All Serbs are engaged in a struggle for the same goal,
3 under the same banner, and we are all convinced of our ultimate victory."
4 A. Yes. And I would say that that is a reference to they're all
5 having the goal of being within a common state.
6 Q. Can we look next, Mr. Treanor, at the next document you've
7 selected, found at tab 68, and that is the 4th Session of the Assembly of
8 the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, on 21 December 1991. Now, I
9 know you've highlighted a number, quite a number of portions of that
10 document, so if we could begin to move through those quickly. But before
11 we do, you may have some overview comments you wish to make.
12 A. Yes. This session of the Assembly held on the 21st of December
13 further pushed forward the work of forming separate structures for the
14 Bosnian Serbs, in particular, the formation of a Council of Ministers. It
15 also took place around the time when, in conjunction with a declaration
16 issued by the European Community, the non-Serbian members of the Bosnian
17 Presidency and government responded favourably to the invitation to
18 express their interest in gaining international recognition as an
19 independent state. This is another crisis point for the Bosnian Serbs,
20 because it is a step, further step forward in the realisation of the goals
21 of their former coalition partners to realise an independent Bosnia rather
22 than having Bosnia remain within Yugoslavia. So there was a lot of
23 discussion at this session about that, and more frustration expressed with
24 the actions of the SDA and the HDZ in that connection.
25 Q. The first portion you've highlighted is found at page 3. That's
1 the third paragraph from the bottom by Mr. Buha.
2 A. Yes, Mr. Buha is a deputy, and here he refers to the necessity for
3 having a defined territory, in order to give proper effect to sovereignty.
4 Q. And you've highlighted next a portion on page 5, in which Mr. Buha
5 continues. That's the second paragraph from the bottom of that page.
6 A. Here he outlines what he sees should be the criteria for any
7 territorial division.
8 Q. On page 6, Mr. Buha continues, and you've highlighted a portion
9 there. That's the paragraph -- or the sentence beginning: "Given the
10 ethnic composition of BH."
11 A. In this paragraph, he is projecting the idea of a state in which
12 would be governed on the principle of one man, one vote.
13 Q. And he states that: "Given the ethnic composition of BH, this
14 pseudo-democratic principle would lead to domination of an ethnic
15 community --"
16 A. Yes. Again, the fear of -- and the reality as it developed of
18 Q. The next highlighted segment appears at page 12 of the English
19 translation. Can you tell us who the speaker is? And for the record,
20 it's again a single sentence in the middle of page 12,
21 beginning: "Bearing in mind the results of the referendum."
22 A. I believe Mr. Koljevic is speaking at this point. He refers, in
23 fact, to the results of the plebiscite of the Serbian people and their
24 rejection of any request for international recognition of BH as an
25 independent state on the basis of the results of the plebiscite, which
1 they had Serbian people in Bosnia had stated they wished to remain within
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Treanor, I haven't got the same time look at the
4 document, but you say Dr. Koljevic, from at first inspection on who was
5 the last speaker, it seems to me that on page 8, Mr. Koljevic is speaking,
6 but then on page 9, it seems that the next speaker announced is
7 Mr. Simovic. And I do not see any --
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour. I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
10 THE WITNESS: Mr. Simovic, who was the deputy -- a deputy prime
11 minister in the BH government, and had been present at a government
12 session the day before, at which a decision similar to the one taken in
13 the Presidency was made.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. The next highlighted section is found at page 13. The highlighted
16 portion appears at the very top of the page, between the designation for
17 chairman and the beginning of the next speaker, Mr. Milovanovic.
18 A. Yes. The chairman here introduces a draft of a statement which it
19 is proposed the Assembly send to Lord Carrington.
20 Q. And for the record, the chairman of this assembly session is who?
21 A. Mr. Krajisnik.
22 Q. There's a highlighted portion on page 14, the next page of the
23 English translation, that begins: "The reasons for such a decision of the
24 Serbian people are strong and convincing," and continues on through the
25 next --
1 A. Yes. This is a portion of the draft that was read out, the tenor
2 of which, as a whole, is to reject the Serbian people's decision to ask
3 for the recognition of independence.
4 Q. Just below that, Professor Maksimovic speaks, and you've
5 highlighted that. He addresses a decision. For the record, the
6 highlighted portion on that page begins with the speaker's name and
7 continues to the bottom of the page. And will continue on the next page.
8 A. Yes. This is Mr. Maksimovic, who was the president of the SDS
9 Deputies' Club, introducing a draft decision on the establishment of a --
10 what's called here a Republic of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina. In other
11 words, to push forward the process of forming a Serbian entity in a manner
12 similar to what had just happened in Croatia, where a Republic of Serbian
13 Krajina had been declared. Now, what is in prospect is the declaration of
14 a Republic of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina, composed of the various
15 Serbian autonomous districts in Bosnia.
16 Q. And for the record --
17 A. I'm sorry. This is not, by the way, the declaration of the
18 republic per se, but a decision that preparations should be undertaken in
19 order for this to happen, and indeed specified this should happen, at the
20 latest, by Serbian new year of 1992, which I believe would be
21 September 14th in the Gregorian calendar.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be --
23 THE WITNESS: January 14th.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. TIEGER:
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. The next highlighted portion, Mr. Treanor, appears on page 19 of
2 the English translation for the benefit of the Court. I believe the
3 speaker is Mr. Zekic. The portion highlighted --
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. The first paragraph of that page, and the first sentence of the
6 second paragraph.
7 A. Here we see another expression of the fears entertained by the
8 Bosnian Serb leaders should the Bosnian Serbs be left as a minority in
9 someone else's state. And in fact, in addition, laying claim in terms
10 that we saw in the -- in some of the previous documents, I believe the
11 decision on verification, two areas where the Serbs had been in a majority
12 and were no longer in a majority because of the genocide which had taken
13 place during World War II.
14 Q. The next highlighted section is found at page 22. Is it correct
15 that this is Dr. Karadzic speaking?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The portion that you've highlighted begins: "The Catholic Council
18 planned in 1900 said by 2000 there would be no Orthodox people in the
20 A. No, wait a minute. I'm sorry. This is -- no. This is
21 Mr. Knezevic speaking.
22 Q. My apologies.
23 A. Now, Mr. Knezevic is a deputy and also a Serbian Orthodox priest.
24 We can see his concerns here about the fate of the Orthodox people
25 vis-a-vis, in this case, the Catholics.
1 Q. And he expresses the conviction that what is happening in -- at
2 that moment is a continuation of the plan he referred to that began in
4 A. Yes, precisely.
5 Q. The next clip is found at page 23, or excuse me, the next
6 highlighted portion, and that's the second paragraph of that page, which
7 begins: "By citing what Njegos said to his ancestors from Asia."
8 A. Yes. This is a -- this is the end of Mr. Knezevic's remarks.
9 Njegos is the national poet of Montenegro. He lived and wrote during the
10 nineteenth century and is considered one of the greatest poets in the
11 language. And his most famous work, the Mountain Wreath, concerns the --
12 in large part, the struggle of the Montenegrin people, the Orthodox people
13 of Montenegro, against the Ottoman, Muslim invaders.
14 Q. The next highlighted portion is found on page 24. It's
15 Mr. Brdjanin speaking, and the portion you've highlighted begins: "Since
16 Europe apparently understands only force, I think that force must be
17 responded to with force."
18 A. Yes. And this portion, in particular, reflects the ongoing
19 tension, if not outright military hostilities in Croatia - I'm not sure
20 exactly what the military situation in Croatia was at this point. There
21 were certainly international efforts under way to get a ceasefire and
22 peacekeeping plan in place, which happened at the beginning of January.
23 But the -- as we've seen, the Bosnian Serb leaders, the SDS leaders from
24 the Bosnian Krajina area, were very concerned with that situation and were
25 very supportive of the military operations of the JNA. So he continues to
1 make reference to that here.
2 Q. And on page 27, you've highlighted three portions of an address by
3 Mr. Vukic, the first of which appears at the very top of the page and
4 refers to the Serbian army.
5 A. Was there something on the previous page? That's the beginning of
6 that sentence. It's not highlighted, though. Mr. Vukic is an SDS leader
7 from Banja Luka. He is not a member of the Assembly per se. I believe
8 he's also a member of the Main Board.
9 Q. And in that first highlighted section, he expresses the view that
10 the army at the moment is the Yugoslav Army, whose members are Serbs. And
11 it should undergo a rapid transformation as soon as possible.
12 A. Yes. Again, we can see the preoccupation with the struggle
13 against the Croats. He refers here again to fascism and the Ustasha, who
14 were the Croatian allies of the Germans during World War II and were
15 responsible for the genocide against the Serbs at that time.
16 Q. The second highlighted portion begins: "This dirty game played by
17 the EC is unacceptable," and continues on to the rest of the paragraph.
18 A. Yes. Again, this is a reflection that -- of what we've seen
19 before. I think Dr. Karadzic addressing what he sees as the foreign
20 machinations against Yugoslavia in order to dismember it and targeting
21 Germany in particular as being behind that effort.
22 Q. And finally, in the last highlighted portion of his speech, does
23 he address the determination of the Serbian people in Bosnia to reject any
24 decision for Bosnian independence and identifies the consequences if that
1 A. Yes. He voices the -- raises the possibility that there will
2 be -- actually be an uprising, with massive bloodshed, in order to resist
3 any decision to take the Serbs of Bosnia-Herzegovina out of Yugoslavia.
4 Q. And the highlighted portion that appears is the last sentence of
5 that -- of his address, which says that: "If the EC goes on with its
6 threat to recognise Bosnia and Herzegovina as an independent state, or as
7 part of a future Independent State of Croatia, or the Independent State of
8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, there will be another Serbian uprising and there
9 will be massive bloodshed in which some nations, that have been
10 subsequently created, will disappear altogether."
11 A. Yes. I think the reference there is to the Bosnian Muslims. I
12 think I alluded earlier in my testimony to the theory of certain Serbian
13 nationalists that the Bosnian Muslims used to be Serbs. They were simply
14 Serbs who had converted to Islam. The Bosnian -- or the Muslims were not
15 recognised as a nation within Yugoslavia, until the 1960s, so in that
16 sense they were a new nation and I think that's the reference to having
17 been subsequently created is to.
18 Q. The next portion of the --
19 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry. Just in relation to that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MS. LOUKAS: We appear, Your Honour, to be going through a
22 procedure of again reading out portions of what appears in the Assembly
23 documents there. It seems to me not particularly probative. I mean,
24 we're looking at someone in the position of Mr. Krajisnik as the Speaker
25 of the parliament. It appears to me not to be particularly probative to
1 be reading out portions of other people's speeches in that instance, Your
2 Honour. Perhaps so much time need not be spent on that particular aspect,
3 I would submit.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, any response?
5 MR. TIEGER: Well, I don't -- any response, I think, Your Honour,
6 at this point would be in the form of argument, and I think that's exactly
7 what the nature of this objection is. We are identifying the evolution of
8 the policies of the Bosnian Serbs and the Bosnian Serb leadership as
9 reflected in the discussions and decisions made at the Bosnian Serb
10 Assembly, of which Mr. Krajisnik was president. It was the highest organ
11 of the Bosnian Serb leadership. We are not -- we are moving through in a
12 manner attempting to balance the constraints of time with as broad a
13 picture of the development of those policies, and the specific issues that
14 were addressed by them as possible. But as I indicated at the outset of
15 my response, this essentially involves a matter of argument. And I'll
16 finally say, as a matter of precision, I do not believe we have been, in
17 fact, reading out portions of the Assembly sessions. I think they have
18 been commentary on them only.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. The Prosecution is not
21 unnecessarily reading at this moment, and tries to follow the guidance of
22 the Chamber. In respect of specifically the part of the reading which
23 caused the Defence to object, that part of the document certainly needed
24 some explanation where it referred to some nations that have been
25 subsequently created, that it certainly assists the Chamber to understand
1 what might be meant by those words, especially because they were spoken,
2 at least in the presence of Mr. Krajisnik, and since it -- these words at
3 least give a sketch of what the consequences of the political developments
4 at that time might be.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. On page 38 of the English translation, we see another highlighted
8 portion. I believe the speaker here is Dr. Karadzic, but of course I'd
9 ask you to check on that.
10 A. Yes, Dr. Karadzic is speaking at this point. And in this
11 highlighted portion, he refers to the plebiscite and what it means for the
12 territory of the Bosnian Serb entity which is in formation. Again, the
13 reference -- where it says, "Our referendum," in the original, it
14 says, "Our plebiscite." "At a plebiscite."
15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my clarification: Was Mr. Karadzic a member
17 of the Assembly or did he address the Assembly as -- in his position as
18 head of the delegation in charge of the negotiations with the other
20 THE WITNESS: Very good question, Your Honour. I probably should
21 have mentioned at -- way at the beginning, especially in connection with
22 the elections, that Dr. Karadzic occupied no official position within BH.
23 He did not run as a candidate in any of the elections, nor was he chosen
24 to be a member of, say, the government, or occupy any other official
25 position. He was the president of the party, president of the SDS. As
1 such, he had the status to be invited to address the BH Assembly.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: As far as this Assembly is concerned, this Assembly
4 is almost exclusively composed of members of the SDS, and he has in fact
5 been elected by them to carry out certain functions. So it is not at all
6 surprising that he is speaking here, but he does not speak as a member of
7 the Assembly per se, since he's not a member of the Assembly.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That clarifies what we read on page 37 about
9 the position of Mr. Karadzic in this respect. Please proceed.
10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I note that having begun at 10 to 11.00,
11 we've hit the hour and a half mark. I'd just ask the Court's guidance on
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If this would be a suitable moment to have a
14 break, then we would adjourn until a quarter to 1.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 12.47 p.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Turning now to page 39 of the English translation of this session.
20 The highlight appears at the second-to-the-last paragraph of that page.
21 And again, I believe this is a continuation of, I think, Dr. Karadzic's
23 A. We're moving on. Yes, this is still Dr. Karadzic. Here he refers
24 to the transformation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which became the standard
25 expression that he used for the changes that he had in mind, which an
1 outside observer might be forgiven for taking for partition. He's clearly
2 referring here to Bosnia not remaining unitary, but being divided into
3 three separate national areas.
4 Q. And on page 40, the next page, again this second-to-last paragraph
5 is highlighted, and that begins: "Apart from causing the deaths of
6 several hundred thousand people."
7 A. Here Dr. Karadzic again addresses the possible consequences of a
8 civil war in BH, including massive deaths and mass transfers of the
10 Q. Turning now to page 41, the next highlighted section.
11 A. We're still with Dr. Karadzic at this point.
12 Q. And you've highlighted a sentence in the middle of the page that
13 refers to the possibility of little Muslim enclaves.
14 A. Yes. This gets to a rather obscure point as to exactly how he
15 foresaw a partition. Apparently, at this time he did not foresee that the
16 entities of the various constituent peoples would be compact, continuous
17 territories, but could encompass islands or enclaves scattered throughout
18 each other's territories. He, in several cases, and maybe we've seen once
19 already, where he makes reference to the situation in Switzerland, where
20 you have some of the parts -- some parts of cantons are in fact islands in
21 neighbouring cantons, I think the main idea being that each population
22 centre of whatever people would be under its own authorities and not be
23 under the authority of one of the other peoples.
24 Q. And in the next highlighted segment, which is the last sentence of
25 the second-to-last full paragraph of that page, which begins: "It seems
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to me that at this moment in time," and refers to: "As much separation as
3 A. Yes. He seems to be anxious to get everything done all at once
4 and not leave unfinished business.
5 Q. On page --
6 A. Which could only mean continuing tensions.
7 Q. On page 44, you've highlighted two segments. Can you identify the
8 speaker and then we'll turn to those two sentences you've highlighted.
9 A. Yes. Here we're with Mr. Koljevic now, a member of the BH
10 Presidency, speaking on the subject of division, partition,
11 transformation, whatever you'd like to call it, and its necessity.
12 Q. And does Mr. Koljevic offer a folksy analogy to explain the
14 A. Yes. Well, here we see him saying that -- as in personal life,
15 when people can't get along, they should separate.
16 Q. And for the record, that's the sentence when people decide that
17 they have had enough of fighting in their household, they go their
18 separate ways, they divorce each other.
19 The second highlighted portion appears after the next paragraph,
20 and again is a single sentence.
21 A. Again, here he's advocating separation, as well as pacification.
22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if we could turn to tab 69, we'll find
23 the next document selected by Mr. Treanor, an appeal to peoples and
24 citizens of BH, dated 21 December 1991.
25 A. Yes. This appeal expresses part of the reaction of the Assembly
1 to the request of the non-Serbian members of the Bosnian state organs for
2 the recognition of independence.
3 Q. If we turn next to tab 70, which is a decision to set up the
4 Republic of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that is dated December 21,
6 A. Yes. This is the decision I alluded to earlier, actually. The
7 title might be better rendered a decision to proceed to the formation of
8 the Republic of Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina. As I said, this session
9 did not decide to set up such a republic per se, but merely to proceed
10 with the preparations to do that. I would draw your attention to
11 paragraph I in that respect.
12 Q. And that paragraph refers explicitly to preparations that are to
13 be made to set up the republic.
14 A. Yes. As a -- or as a federal unit within the Federal State of
15 Yugoslavia, if the Croatian and Muslim ethnic communities decide to change
16 their attitude toward Yugoslavia, that is, if they persist with the drive
17 toward independence.
18 Q. You referred -- I'm sorry.
19 A. I would just like to call attention to paragraph II, where again
20 we see, as we will see in many documents, the reference to the plebiscite
21 of the Serbian people as support for the policy of the Bosnian Serb
23 Q. There were references earlier to the Council of Ministers, and in
24 this connection, can we turn to tab 71 and direct your attention,
25 Mr. Treanor, to the next document you've selected, which is a decision on
1 the establishment and election of the Ministerial Council, also dated 21
2 December 1991.
3 A. Yes. This is --
4 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you: Is there any difference between what
5 we saw on page 14, the decision on the establishment, and what we see here
6 as a separate decision, or is it just exactly the same?
7 THE WITNESS: Well, I think the document we just saw is taken from
8 the gazette. This is translated from the decision as published in the
9 Official Gazette. Whether there is any difference in the wording between
10 this and what is in the record of the Assembly session, I can't say at
11 this point in time.
12 JUDGE ORIE: What I see, as a matter of fact, is that the
13 translation is a bit different. But it seems to be exactly the same
14 source. Wording is the same. So I wondered whether it was necessary to
15 look again at the same decision one time as expressed in the minutes and
16 the other time in a separate document. I mean, one word would have done.
17 It was later published in the Official Gazette. That would have done, I
18 would say, without going through it again. But if I made a mistake, the
19 only thing that my attention is drawn to is that translations are not
20 always exactly in the same wording. Please proceed.
21 THE WITNESS: I think that's because that frequently the documents
22 are translated by different people at different points in time.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. TIEGER: The next document found at tab 73 is a decision on
25 the recognition of RSK.
1 THE WITNESS: The Ministerial Council, I think we have to conclude
2 with that.
3 MR. TIEGER: Sorry.
4 THE WITNESS: That particular decision. I just want to point out
5 that this is an important decision. Again, this is the decision as
6 published in the gazette. The incipient republic which was not yet been
7 officially formed now has not only an assembly, but a Council of
8 Ministers. The members of the council are specified here, and also of
9 interest is the fact that no duties are specified for this body. And I
10 would also point out that ex officio members of that body are the
11 presidents of the governments of the Serbian autonomous districts.
12 MR. TIEGER:
13 Q. I think we can now turn to tab 73, which is the decision on
14 recognition of Republika Srpska. There was earlier reference to a letter
15 of congratulations on the occasion of the establishment of RSK. I take it
16 that is the formal decision.
17 A. Yes. This is the formal decision, as published in the gazette,
18 recognising -- the Assembly recognising their sister republic, so to
19 speak. Which has, of course, not been recognised anybody else, I think
20 I'm correct in saying.
21 Q. If we could turn next to a meeting of the political council held
22 on 24 December 1991, as reflected in the Maksimovic diary. That document
23 is found at tab 74.
24 A. Yes. This is, I think, the last entry we have from the Maksimovic
25 diary, and here there is discussion of how to divide up BH. We can look
1 at the remarks of -- that begin with Professor Leovac, who is the
2 president of that council. Mr. Najdanovic I've indicated who is a...
3 Q. On page 12, you've highlighted two portions, Mr. Treanor, the
4 first by Professor Leovac and the second by Professor Najdanovic. Can you
5 address them, please.
6 A. Well, why don't we magnify them so people can read them. I think
7 they're self-explanatory.
8 Q. In the first, Professor Leovac notes that: "In the next few days,
9 we should decide on what is to be done. Everything here can be divided."
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And in the second, which is the last sentence of Professor
12 Najdanovic's remarks, he asks what are our maximum borders? We need a
13 single Serbian state which cannot be inhabited by Muslims because they
14 would overwhelm us with their birth rate.
15 A. Yes. Here we see again a reflection of the demographic fears of
16 the Bosnian Serb leaders, the fear of having been in the same state
17 with -- having too many Muslims in the state with them that would soon
18 outnumber them.
19 Q. And if we could turn to page 13, I think there's one more
21 A. Yes. This is Professor Leovac again.
22 MR. TIEGER: For the record, that's the second-to-last paragraph
23 on the page. And Professor Leovac indicates that representatives of the
24 council should talk to the SDS president and the president of the Assembly
25 of the Serbian People. And then in parenthesis: "(We should talk to
1 Krajisnik tomorrow and settle this immediately)."
2 A. Yes. This is a reflection of who the council perceives to be the
3 two most important leaders among the Bosnian Serb leadership.
4 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the next documents to which we'll be
5 turning will be in binder 7, although the next document sequentially will
6 be an intercept. And the intercepted phone conversation in question is
7 found at tab 22 of the intercept binder.
8 [Intercept played]
9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, although it's a bit late to notify the
10 Court, that was found on page 4 of the English translation.
11 Q. Mr. Treanor.
12 A. Yes. Well, this is another one of the informal consultations on
13 the telephone between Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik. Some of the
14 references in there are obscure as to what is going on exactly. But they
15 both seem to be unhappy with the progress of the effort for the
16 recognition of the independence of BH. As the Court will recall, the
17 Bosnian Serb Assembly's decision on proceeding to the formation of a
18 Serbian Republic was contingent on the Muslims and Croats changing their
19 attitude toward Yugoslavia. In other words, if they ceased to push for
20 independence, then the prospect was there that the Bosnian Serbs would not
21 in fact declare their republic, if that was an effort to dissuade the SDA
22 and the HDZ from their course, it seems to be failing at this point.
23 Q. And in fact, according to Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Izetbegovic is
24 speaking openly about it.
25 A. Right, precisely. He's not backing off at all.
1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if we could turn now to tab 75, which
2 is the first document found in binder 7.
3 Q. Mr. Treanor, I direct your attention now to the next document
4 you've selected, which consists of the minutes of a meeting between the
5 president of the Republic of Croatia, Franjo Tudjman, and Professor
6 Koljevic, on 8 January 1992.
7 A. Yes. This is a very interesting document and reflects an effort
8 at negotiations, which is as obscure in the documents as the negotiations
9 over the summer with the Muslims. But this document indicates that, for
10 one thing, the Bosnian Serb leaders were not idle, were not simply waiting
11 for others to react to their moves. For instance, the intention to
12 proceed to the formation of the republic, should the SDA and the HDZ
13 change their attitude toward Yugoslavia. But that having tried to come to
14 an agreement with the Muslims, and that having failed, this document
15 indicates that they are now turning to the Croats to explore the
16 possibility for an agreement with them. We will see some excerpts from
17 this document. Part of the idea here is that they would recognise each
18 other's right to have special relations with, respectively, Serbia and
19 Croatia, and they would get together and, among other things, redraw the
20 municipal boundaries within BH so that they would be more favourable to
21 the Serbs and the Croats and give them more advantageous territories.
22 Also, the possibility of some transfers of population came up. I think we
23 can proceed with the excerpts from the document. The meeting took place,
24 by the way, at the initiative of Dr. Koljevic, according to the records of
25 the meeting, and he's utilising Mr. Franjo Boras, who was one of the Croat
1 members of the BH Presidency, as an intermediary to deal directly with the
2 HDZ leadership in Zagreb.
3 Q. And the first highlighted portions appear on page 3 of the English
4 translation of the document, the first of which appears in the upper
5 portion of the page and begins with the sentence: "First of all, I want
6 to express my condolences for the great suffering of the Croatian people."
7 A. Yes. Dr. Koljevic is being very forthcoming and very friendly to
8 the Croats here, and somewhat remarkably here expresses a form of apology
9 to the Croats for sufferings inflicted on them by the Serbs. I say
10 somewhat remarkably in view of what we've seen in the documents previously
11 about the tremendous support by the Bosnian Serbs for the efforts of the
12 Croatian Serbs to break away from Croatia and their characterisation of
13 the Croatian regime as a fascist regime, an Ustasha regime, and so forth.
14 Q. Just for the record, that section, highlighted section, ends with
15 the sentence: "However, I have the need to say this first of all, because
16 I think that it is essential that in our new beginning, we look one
17 another in the eye, that we look at that blame."
18 The second highlighted section is the second-to-last sentence at
19 the bottom of page 3.
20 A. Here Dr. Koljevic is basically saying that the SDS leadership
21 doesn't have any objection if the HDZ leadership in BH wants to do the
22 same thing that they're engaged in doing.
23 Q. And if we turn to next page 4 and the next highlighted section,
24 does Mr. Koljevic address a common danger?
25 A. Yes. Here he singles out what he precisely refers to as a common
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 danger, namely, the creation of an Islamic republic in BH.
2 Q. And for the record, that highlight begins with: "When we look at
3 these two phases globally, we have a great danger, a common danger," and
4 ends with the next sentence, which ends: "Are evolving in that
6 A. This, by the way, reflects a fear which, as the Court may
7 remember, a little over a year before, in one of the interviews with the
8 Belgrade magazine Knin [phoen], Dr. Karadzic had denied existed in BH.
9 Q. If we turn now to page 5, where we see highlighted second full
10 paragraph of that page and in which Dr. Koljevic refers to another factor
11 he believes they have in common.
12 A. Here, Dr. Koljevic is getting to the idea of separation as a way
13 of preventing conflicts, and indeed creating trust.
14 Q. If we turn to page 6, you've highlighted a sentence that appears
15 at the very bottom of the page, in which Dr. Koljevic addresses the issue
16 of an independent Bosnia.
17 A. Yes. Well, here again he gets to their common interests. He has
18 stated that separation, he thinks, is good for both of them; and, on the
19 other hand, he believes that an independent Bosnia in which both of those
20 people remain is against the interests of both of those people, for
21 precisely the reason that it separates them from their mother countries.
22 Q. I believe the next highlighted portion appears on page 7, next two
23 portions. Those are the first two paragraphs of that page.
24 A. Here he gets down to some concrete proposals. He also expresses
25 the fear that, to a certain extent, underlay the Bosnian Serb position in
1 the negotiations which would move into the public forum on an
2 international level, that is, if BH received its independence before the
3 internal transformation, as Dr. Karadzic put it, was achieved, then they
4 would -- they being the Serbs, wouldn't be able to rectify the situation.
5 The international community would wash its hands of Bosnia and move on.
6 So they felt, desperately felt that they had to get this issue resolved
7 before BH was recognised as an independent state. And here the concrete
8 proposal is for a -- some sort of confederal arrangement for Bosnia.
9 Q. If you turn next to page 12.
10 A. I'm sorry. If we could go back to that. There's one other thing
11 that I would like to point out there which ... He proposes this confederal
12 arrangement, and he says: "At least as the first stage." This is an idea
13 that we will meet later on, and that is, that the ultimate goal of the
14 Bosnian Serbs may have to be achieved in stages.
15 Q. Now, page 12, you've highlighted the comments of Mr. Susak and
16 Mr. Boras.
17 A. Yes. Mr. Susak is the -- or was the minister of defence of
18 Croatia. He seems to share some of the demographic fears of the Bosnian
19 Serb leadership, referring to the fact that since the Muslims have nowhere
20 to go from Bosnia, they will soon be able to treat the other nations as
21 minorities. And then now we have Mr. Boras, who again is the HDZ member
22 of the Presidency of BH. He has a similar idea to the one that we've seen
23 inspires the Bosnian Serb leadership, that is, the issue of people moving
24 in to someone else's ethnic territory and building homes and that sort of
25 thing, which seems to be an issue that concerns him as well. And it could
1 be prevented by having a territorial and administrative delimitation.
2 Q. And the next highlight appears on page 13, and it seems to be an
3 exchange between Mr. Boras and Dr. Koljevic, though I see that Mr. Manolic
4 asks a significant question in between.
5 A. I don't seem to have this one marked.
6 Q. On the screen, there's a --
7 A. If we could --
8 Q. If we could --
9 A. -- blow it up, I'll --
10 Q. The portion you've highlighted is Mr. Boras speaking and referring
11 to the reorganisation of municipalities and referendums.
12 A. Yes. This is the idea I referred to at the beginning, one that
13 the Bosnian Serb leaders have had for a long time, namely, changes within
14 the municipal organisation.
15 Q. Then Mr. Manolic asks: "The aim of that reorganisation would in
16 fact be the homogeneity of certain areas."
17 A. Yes. And Mr. Koljevic agrees with that.
18 Q. You've highlighted the portion at the beginning of Dr. Koljevic's
19 comments there: "Yes, the homogeneity of certain areas." And then below
20 you've highlighted another section in which Dr. Koljevic further addresses
21 that issue saying: "It is not so impossible to divide Bosnia."
22 A. Yes. Well, again here we have the idea of partition, as the basis
23 for an agreement. If we could go on to the next page. He makes reference
24 to a leopard skin, which I -- again, I don't have this portion in front of
25 me now, but it seems to be a reference to the way the map might look once
1 they get finished doing this.
2 Q. If we could return to the previous page and just look at that last
3 sentence, in which Dr. Koljevic states: "You know, everything is
4 possible, but that option is excluded for us on the basis of a stand taken
5 in advance." And then he continues: "Look at that." And then the next
6 page continues: "That leopard's skin and Carrington, then you come to
7 Carrington and he is already handicapped at the beginning."
8 A. Yes. I believe that's a reference to some sort of map, but it's
9 obscure to me. I couldn't go any further than that.
10 Q. The next highlighted section appears at page 18, and it's the
11 first three paragraphs in the English translation of the remarks by
12 Mr. Lerotic.
13 A. Yes, I've got this. And Mr. Lerotic is an advisor to President
14 Tudjman, and here he's certainly expressing agreement with the idea that
15 all three peoples in Bosnia and Herzegovina have sovereignty.
16 Q. And on page 20, I think we find highlighted the comments of
17 Mr. Boras, at the bottom of the last paragraph at the bottom of the page,
18 referring to the kind of mutual assistance you commented on earlier.
19 A. Yes. Here he broaches the idea of an agreement between the Croats
20 and the Serbs on the municipal level, where they would join forces with
21 each other in given municipalities and back the claims of whichever of
22 those two nations was the -- had a relative majority in the given
24 Q. I believe that highlighted portion continues on to the next page.
25 A. Yes. He makes it quite clear here that this arrangement is --
1 would be directed at the Muslim people. Basically the idea here in these
2 discussions is that the Croats and the Serbs should get together and do to
3 the Muslims what the Bosnian Serbs feel the Croats and the Muslims have --
4 or are about to do to them.
5 Q. The next highlighted portion is found at page 22, portions. The
6 first is beginning at the top of the page, or toward the top of the page,
7 the remarks of Mr. Lerotic.
8 A. Yes. Here we see again interest in the idea of the reorganisation
9 of the municipalities, and he's wondering whether that's really possible
10 at this point.
11 Q. And in the second half of the page, you see highlighted comments
12 of Dr. Koljevic.
13 A. Maybe we want to see the paragraph before that as well. It's just
14 a couple of lines. In this paragraph, the one just before the one that's
15 highlighted, Dr. Koljevic is making reference to the fact, well, that's
16 exactly what we're doing now. And then he goes on to explain.
17 Q. I believe that continues on to the next page.
18 A. Yes. And he explains the procedure they're adopting to form new
19 municipalities out of the Serbian-dominated areas of the existing
21 Q. And that portion begins at: "For example, in Banja Luka," and
22 ends with the line: "And form a new municipality and lean on the
23 territory outside the town."
24 Mr. Treanor, I know there are other portions of this document
25 you've highlighted, but in view of the time, would it be possible to move
1 on, or would we miss something that needs to be -- that isn't roughly
2 captured by the other portions of the transcript which we've reviewed?
3 A. I'm just having a quick look. They're both statements by
4 Dr. Koljevic. He goes into the international situation a little bit. I
5 can we can dispense with that.
6 Q. If we could turn, then, to tab 76, the next document selected by
7 Mr. Treanor. This is the 5th Assembly Session of the Serbian People in
8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, held on January 9th, 1992. Before looking at the
9 highlights of that section, Mr. Treanor, are there any comments you wish
10 to make, any overview remarks?
11 A. Yes. Now, the only official item on the agenda of this session is
12 the decision for the proclamation of the Republic of the Serbian People in
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina. As has been mentioned, this session took place on
14 the 9th of January. Why they didn't wait until the 14th of February - I'm
15 sorry - the 9th of January. Why they didn't wait until the -- a few days
16 until the Serbian new year, as was specified in the previous resolution on
17 this subject, I don't know. Perhaps they had come to conclude that in
18 fact the SDA and the HDZ were not going to be diverted from their course,
19 so they might as well go ahead with theirs.
20 Q. The first highlighted portion you've indicated is found at page 8
21 of the English translation. Can you identify that speaker for us, please,
22 before explaining the comment.
23 A. I believe this is Mr. Maksimovic speaking. The translation is a
24 little different from what I'm seeing in the original, just the word
25 order, though, I think. And here he's referring to what I mentioned
1 before, that they have not responded to the invitation to withdraw their
2 request for the recognition of independence.
3 Q. And at page 10, we see the next portion you've highlighted, and
4 that is the declaration on the proclamation of the republic.
5 A. Yes. This is the draft, as read into the record of the assembly
6 session. I would draw attention in paragraph I where it specifies that
7 the republic is to be operative within the areas of the Serbian autonomous
8 regions and districts and other Serbian entities in BH. So here we now
9 see the culmination of the regionalisation idea in its convergence with
10 the idea of all Serbs in BH remaining within Yugoslavia via the partition
11 of BH, largely on the basis of the territories that have already been
12 marked out as part of the autonomous regions. And again, there are
13 references to areas where the Serbian people are in the minority because
14 of the genocide. So the definition of the territory of the republic
15 starts out as being rather specific, but gets increasingly imprecise. We
16 saw the same type of formulation when the autonomous districts themselves
17 were verified. So it is certainly at this point in time impossible to say
18 what precisely the boundaries of this republic would be. And in the next
19 paragraph, again we see the reference to the plebiscite as a foundation
20 for the step they're taking now.
21 Q. Depicted on the screen now is the highlighted portion of page 11,
22 which is the continuation of paragraph II and the entirety of III?
23 A. Right. At the end of II, we see the basic idea, the fundamental
24 idea here, that the new republic is to be an integral part of federal
25 Yugoslavia, and in III we see expression of the desire to achieve a
1 peaceful resolution of differences with the other communities within BH.
2 Q. Mr. Treanor, you indicated that the essence of, or the primary
3 focus of that particular session was just this, and in the interests of
4 time, I'd like to move forward past that session. You'll have a chance to
5 review any of the highlighted selections you made to see if we should
6 return to them, but meanwhile, I'd like to move on to the 1st Session of
7 the Ministerial Council, if we can. And I would also note that contained
8 within the documentation that you've selected, in particular, at tab 77,
9 is the declaration of the proclamation of the state, which I assume would
10 take us over the same ground we just covered.
11 A. Yes. The Court will find reflected in that document many of the
12 themes that we have seen up to now in the policy of the SDS leadership,
13 but the fundamental idea here is that this new republic will remain within
15 One other point that I would -- one other point that I would point
16 out is there was some discussion in the session about the fact that in the
17 original draft of this resolution, there was a similar -- in a similar
18 fashion to the decision to proceed to the formation of the republic, there
19 was some conditionality attached to this decision, centring around the
20 attitude of the other two parties in the coalition toward Yugoslavia. If
21 that should change, then maybe the republic, this republic won't be
22 proclaimed. But in the resolution as adopted, it states that this
23 declaration comes in to force on the day of its adoption. So based on its
24 own wording, this has come into force. However, as we will see, the
25 process of actually activating, if you will, the structures of the new
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 republic is not an immediate one. It's drawn out a bit over the next
2 couple of months. And what we're going to turn to now is one of the first
3 things that did happened, which is that the Council of Ministers that was
4 named in December actually has a meeting.
5 Q. That's found at tab 78. Mr. Treanor, you've highlighted the first
6 page, which appears to be -- the highlights appear to be primarily a list
7 of those in attendance.
8 A. Yes. This is -- this document represents the minutes of the 1st
9 Session of the Ministerial Council of the Assembly, took place on the 11th
10 of January. The document itself is dated the 13th. And I'd just like to
11 point out here that among those present were Dr. Karadzic and
12 Mr. Krajisnik, as well as some other individuals, such as Rajko Dukic, the
13 president of the Executive Committee of the SDS, who were not members of
14 the Ministerial Council but again typically for the types of meetings that
15 the Bosnian Serb leadership held, the list of attendees was not by any
16 means restricted to those who were members of a given body.
17 Q. You've also highlighted a portion found at page 12 of the
18 document. I'm sorry. It appears to be page 2. And that is the paragraph
19 numbered 2, and headed, "Execution of tasks resulting from the declaration
20 of the promulgation of the Republic of the Serbian People of Bosnia and
22 A. Yes. And as the Court can see, Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik,
23 among others, among other non-members of the council, took active part in
24 the discussion and the participants identified the defining of the ethnic
25 territory, as well as the establishment of government organs, as one of
1 the priorities in their activities now, defining the territory of a
2 political unit being rather fundamental.
3 Q. Just for clarity, that highlight continues on to the next page, it
4 appears. And also highlighted on page 3, in the middle of the page, also
5 enumerated number 2, is a short paragraph referring to the material
6 entitled regionalisation, indicating Dr. Skoko is responsible for the
7 execution of these tasks.
8 A. Right. Here we see continued interest in the development of the
9 regions and Dr. Skoko is given the responsibility for preparing some sort
10 of report on that subject. Dr. Skoko was an official in the -- I believe
11 in the statistical centre of the republic. That is the institution which
12 is occupied with carrying out the census and tabulating its results, that
13 sort of thing.
14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I don't think there are further clips
15 from the 1st Session of the Council of Ministers, and therefore this might
16 be an appropriate time to adjourn.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes it's a quarter to 2.00, so we have to stop
18 anyhow. But if you'll just allow me to finish my shorthand annotation.
19 Yes. It's a quarter to 2.00. We have to adjourn. We adjourn
20 until tomorrow morning, 9.00 o'clock, in this same courtroom, Madam
21 Registrar, if I'm not making a mistake, in this same courtroom,
23 Mr. Treanor, same instruction as the other days of your testimony,
24 not to speak with anyone about your testimony given and still to be given,
25 and we expect you to be back tomorrow morning at 9.00 o'clock in the same
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We stay adjourned.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of
6 February 2004, at 9.00 a.m.