1 Wednesday, 25 February 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Momcilo Krajisnik.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Tieger, is the Prosecution ready to continue the
12 examination-in-chief of Mr. Treanor?
13 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, we are.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Treanor, may I then again remind you that you're
15 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of
16 your testimony.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I'm aware of that, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 WITNESS: PATRICK TREANOR [Resumed]
22 Examined by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]
23 Q. Mr. Treanor, can we move ahead to a letter dated January 15th,
24 1992. It can be found at tab 80. It is presently shown on the screen.
25 Can you tell us what this letter represents, what it depicts.
1 A. Yes. This is a letter signed by Rajko Dukic, as president of the
2 Executive Committee of the SDS sent to the -- what he describes as the
3 Serbian ministries in the government of BH. As the Court can see, it
4 informs him of a decision of the Executive Committee held at the end of
5 1991, on 30 December, that the Serbian ministries in BH have set up
6 contacts regarding joint plans and work programmes with the corresponding
7 ministers, ministries, and other government bodies and institutions in the
8 government of the Republic of Serbia. This is obviously a reflection of
9 the desire of the Bosnian Serb leadership to maintain close cooperation
10 with the Republic of Serbia. And I would point out one interesting facet
11 of this letter, is that it is a letter from a party organ to the Serbian
12 ministries, which are of course state organs.
13 Q. If we could move next to a document found at tab 82 of the binder.
14 That is the 2nd Session of the Council of Ministers held on January 17th,
16 A. Yes. This is the only other session of the Council of Ministers
17 that we have a record of, that is, a record of one of its sessions.
18 Again, if we can magnify the second paragraph, we can see some of the
19 people present, and the second highlighted paragraph, which is I think the
20 fourth paragraph on the page, you can see the additional people that were
21 present, that is, those who were not members of the Ministerial Council,
22 including Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, Dr. Koljevic, Mr. Dukic, and
24 Q. You've also highlighted a portion on page 4 of that document.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, would you allow me to just go back once
1 to what we find on tab 80 and ask for a clarification? I'm sorry to
2 interrupt you. The letter of Mr. Dukic, Mr. Treanor. I read from the
3 transcript that this letter informs him of a decision of the Executive
4 Committee held at the end of 1991, of 30 December, that the Serbian
5 ministries in BH have set up contacts regarding joint plans and work
6 programmes with the corresponding ministers, ministries, and other
7 government bodies in the government of the Republic of Serbia.
8 Could you indicate to me where I find that it's Serbian ministries
9 that have set up. I do see that the latter comes from the Executive
11 THE WITNESS: It is addressed to the Serbian ministries in the
12 government of BH. I take that to mean the -- basically the members of the
13 Bosnian Serb Ministerial Council that was established on the 21st of
14 December, which is composed of the SDS-designated members of the
15 government of BH who were actually ministers, or if there was no -- they
16 did not have a ministry in the given ministry, the deputy minister, but I
17 think it's addressed to that group of individuals, the Bosnian Serb
18 Ministerial Council, which was composed, in fact, of high functionaries of
19 the BH government.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do not see that explicitly in the letter, but
21 you would agree that your interpretation of -- on behalf of whom the
22 Executive Committee addresses the Serbian ministries, that it's not a
23 direct contact between the Executive Committee, but, as you say, the
24 Ministerial Council that just had been established?
25 THE WITNESS: Well, this is a letter from the chairman of the
1 Executive Committee, again, to the Serbian ministries, informing them of a
2 decision of the Executive Committee and asking them to implement it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I read your testimony that the Serbian
4 ministries in BH have set up contacts regarding joint plans and work
5 programmes with the corresponding ministers, ministries, and other
6 government bodies in the government of the Republic of Serbia. I'm
7 wondering where I can read in this letter that the contacts have been set
8 up between the Serbian ministries in BH, on the one hand side --
9 THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour. If I said that, I
10 misspoke. They have to set up contacts. They should set up contacts
11 regarding joint plans and work programmes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So then my understanding of your testimony should be
13 that this letter addresses the Serbian ministries, more or less inviting
14 them to get in close contact with their Serbian BH counterparts; is that
16 THE WITNESS: Well, it's requesting them to implement the
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it's not clear from the letter, at least,
19 with whom. Because I see only -- I see that the letter is sent by the
20 Executive Committee. It is addressed to the Serbian ministries in the BH
21 government. I see that from the -- since it is addressed to the BH
22 government, it is an instruction for them to seek contact with the Serbian
23 ministries; is that --
24 THE WITNESS: Yes. Where it says "you" in the letter, "You are
25 kindly requested," that refers to the Serbian ministries.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's what they have to do and not what
2 they had done yet, as your testimony says.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your clarification. Please proceed.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Mr. Treanor, you had just turned your attention to page 4 of the
7 English transcript of the 2nd Session of the Council of Ministers and to
8 the highlighted portion in that document that is now shown on the screen.
9 A. Yes. In this paragraph relaying to the work programme of the
10 Council of Ministers, we see the issue of regionalisation being addressed.
11 MR. TIEGER: For the record, Your Honour, that is the paragraph
12 that is enumerated number 4 and headed, "The draft work programme of the
13 Ministerial Council of the Assembly of the Serbian People of BH." That
14 highlight continues to the bottom of that page, the last sentence of which
15 indicates: "Way as to enlarge the territory of the regions and encompass
16 a larger number of," and then it continues on to the next page,
17 reading: "Inhabitants, wherever possible, in order to consolidate the
18 regions, both ethnicically and economically."
19 Q. And Mr. Treanor, you've also highlighted a portion of that
20 document found on page 5 of the English translation, and that is the
21 paragraph enumerated number 8: "Realisation of the conclusions reached at
22 the 1st meeting of the Ministerial Council of the Assembly of Serbian
23 People of BH."
24 A. Yes. This again relates to the issue of regionalisation. A
25 reference is made to Mr. Cizmovic, who, on the 21st of December, was
1 designated by the Bosnian Serb Assembly as the coordinator of the work of
2 the governments of the SAOs, the Serbian autonomous districts, and was
3 also at that time made a member of the Ministerial Council.
4 Q. There's one final highlight on page 5. I'm sorry. That would be
5 page 6, Your Honour. That's the paragraph enumerated number 4 on that
7 A. Yes. This is an interesting remark by Mr. Krajisnik, interesting
8 observation on the division of labour between the Assembly, the
9 Ministerial Council, and the SDS, that this may be a reference to the
10 letter we just considered from -- the letter from Mr. Dukic to the Serbian
11 ministries, which, as I pointed out, was a letter from a party organ to
12 state organs. This may have been the type of thing that Mr. Krajisnik was
13 referring to and was concerned about, apparently feeling that the lines of
14 authority were being crossed here, confused.
15 Q. The next document selected by Mr. Treanor is found at tab 83.
16 This is a document entitled, "Regionalisation, demographic, economic, and
17 other significant aspects," and is dated January 1992, from Sarajevo. I
18 note that you've highlighted one page of that document, which is found at
19 page 9 and is presently shown on the screen. Perhaps you can tell us
20 quickly about the document and the particular page that is shown.
21 A. Yes. This is apparently the material that the Ministerial Council
22 asked Dr. Skoko to prepare. Yesterday I misidentified Dr. Skoko as an
23 official in the BH Statistical Institute. He was actually in the
24 Institute for Social Planning. At any rate, he was asked to prepare
25 material in connection with regionalisation, under a title very similar,
1 if not exact, to this report, which is regionalisation, demographic,
2 economic, and other essential aspects. And I'd just like to call the
3 Court's attention in particular to this graph, which illustrates one of
4 the points made in the report and reflects a concern that we have seen
5 continually expressed by Bosnian Serb leaders, namely, the demographic
6 factor as far as the position of the Serbs in BH is concerned, their fear
7 that soon the Muslims in BH would become a majority throughout the
8 republic and be in a position to institute in some occasions a --
9 expressed the fear of an Islamic state being established, that sort of
10 thing, but in any case, reducing the Serbs to a -- definitely reducing the
11 Serbs to a minority within BH, and this graph presents projections of
12 population growth in two different variants. As you can see, both of
13 those variants result in a fairly rapid increase of the Muslim population
14 as opposed to the stable and even declining Serbian and Croatian
16 Now, what these variants are and what they're based on
17 statistically, I don't know, not being a demographer, but this is a very,
18 if I can use the term, graphic illustration of the Serbian demographic
19 concerns, which was one of the underlying factors in their drive for
21 Q. If we can turn next to an intercepted telephone conversation
22 between -- or involving Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic, which is found in
23 the intercept binder at tab 24.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps before we move forwards, could --
25 Mr. Treanor, could you tell us something about the source of this
1 document, to whom it was presented? Perhaps I missed it, but at least it
2 doesn't become clear from the document itself, as far as I can see. It's
3 a rather lengthy document, but ...
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. The document itself does not indicate who it
5 was delivered to or who precisely the author was. As I mentioned,
6 however, the title is very similar to the materials that the Council of
7 Ministers requested Mr. Skoko to prepare at their first session. And it
8 is, in fact, dated January 1992, and it was recovered from the papers of
9 the SDS and its members that were gathered by the Bosnian authorities
10 after the Bosnian Serb leaders and the SDS officials left Sarajevo in
11 April and May 1992.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So do I understand that you consider it
13 possible and even perhaps you think it's likely that this document was
14 presented to the SDS?
15 THE WITNESS: Well, no. The Council of Ministers, again,
16 requested such a report.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 THE WITNESS: I don't know if we can go back to the minutes of the
19 1st Ministerial Council.
20 MR. TIEGER: We have that on the screen now, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: There's item number 2 on page 3 of the
23 original: "Material entitled regionalisation: Demographic, economic and
24 other indicators should be updated and completed by 17 January. And the
25 material regionalisation and monetary flows should be finished by 25
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 January." Dr. Milorad Skoko is responsible for these tasks. And I say,
2 the similar -- the title of the document we were just considering is very
3 similar to this. There is another document in the collection dated
4 September 1991 that is similar to this January report, so it, obviously,
5 represents an update of that report. Given the similarity of the title,
6 the process of the -- compiling of the report and the dates concerned, I
7 can draw the conclusion -- I do draw the conclusion, but it is only a
8 conclusion, based on those factors, that this is the report that Dr. Skoko
9 was asked to prepare. Now, as I say, we only have minutes of two sessions
10 of the Ministerial Council, and we do not, in fact, see this being
11 presented on the 17th of January. So whether it was ever presented to the
12 Ministerial Council or not, I do not know.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. Thank you for your clarification.
14 I think we now move to the intercept, Mr. Tieger.
15 [Intercept played]
16 THE WITNESS: Well, what is under discussion here is the idea of a
17 referendum in BH. It is not clear from the -- precisely clear to me from
18 the context of the conversation what the exact date of this conversation
19 is. The transcript only indicates January 1992. But by way of background
20 to this referendum issue, which is one that will dominate public
21 discussion in Bosnia for the next month or so, certainly through the end
22 of February/beginning of March 1992, when the referendum was in fact held,
23 I would just remind the Court that the non-Serbian members of the BH
24 Presidency and government had responded to the invitation of the European
25 Community at the end of 1991 to seek recognition. The European Community
1 had established a commission to examine the requests of the republics of
2 Yugoslavia that sought international recognition as independent states, to
3 see whether they fulfilled certain conditions.
4 On the 11th of January, the so-called Badinter Commission issued a
5 report in relation to Bosnia and Herzegovina. This report indicates that
6 it took into consideration a number of documents and factors, including,
7 of course, the requests of the non-Serbian members of the Bosnian state
8 organs, but also the -- some documents and activities of the Bosnian Serb
10 In view of the obvious contradiction between the stand being taken
11 by the non-Serbian members of the BH government organs and the Bosnian
12 Serb organs, in this case, the Assembly, the commission in its report --
13 and I would just quote from the very end of the report, where the
14 commission indicates its opinion that: "The will of the peoples of Bosnia
15 and Herzegovina to constitute the SRBH as a sovereign and independent
16 state cannot be held to have been fully established. This assessment
17 could be reviewed if appropriate guarantees were provided by the republic
18 applying for recognition, possibly by means of a referendum of all the
19 citizens of the SRBH, without distinction, carried out under international
21 So the subject of such a referendum became the subject of public
22 debate in BH in the days following that, and I think as we will see
23 shortly, there was a session, a joint session of the BH Assembly, held on
24 the 25th -- I believe it was the 25th of January, going late into the --
25 or early into the next morning, which in fact adopted a decision that such
1 a referendum be held. This decision was adopted in a fashion similar to
2 the way in which the decision adopting the memorandum and platform in
3 October 1991 was adopted, that is, Mr. Krajisnik, as the presiding
4 officer, closed the session, but the session was reconvened later by the
5 deputy president of the Assembly in the absence of the SDS deputies, and
6 the decision was taken. This caused some outrage among the Bosnian Serb
7 deputies and other members of the Bosnian Serb leadership, and there was
8 some -- a fair amount of discussion, as I think we may be seeing, as to
9 what line the Bosnian Serbs should take in regard to this referendum. And
10 here Mr. Krajisnik is recommending to Dr. Karadzic what their public
11 position should be on this issue. It closely reflects what, in fact,
12 became the stance of the SDS leadership in regard to the referendum, which
13 was basically as follows: They regarded the decision to have the
14 referendum as illegitimate, but they were perfectly willing to see the
15 members of the other two national communities in BH, that is, the Muslims
16 and the Croats, go ahead and have a vote, similar to the vote that the
17 Serbs had already had. The Serbs had their vote, so let the others have
18 theirs. But it will be their vote, not ours, and cannot bind us.
19 On the other hand, if we can come to an agreement as to -- in
20 regard to the transformation of BH, then we would then have the conditions
21 to, in fact, have a referendum of all the peoples in BH. But until such
22 an agreement had been reached, such a referendum was premature and any
23 vote that was taken could only be considered to be a vote expressing the
24 will of the Muslim and Croat national communities in BH.
25 MR. TIEGER:
1 Q. Mr. Treanor, you referred to a session of the Bosnian Assembly
2 held on January 25th, and the conclusions resulting from that. Was a
3 session of the Serbian Assembly held shortly thereafter?
4 A. Yes. The session of the Bosnian Assembly went until very early in
5 the morning. The SDS deputies had left earlier. I think it went until
6 5.00 o'clock in the morning, something like that. But the Bosnian Serb
7 members of the -- what was now the Assembly of the Serbian People in BH
8 called a session of their Assembly later on the 26th, beginning at 11.15
9 in the morning, and this session was called exclusively to consider the
10 events of the night before the decision to call a referendum, other
11 decisions that were taken in their absence, and to air their views on that
12 and discuss what they should do as a way forward.
13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the English transcript of that session
14 is found as the first document in binder 8 and is at tab 84.
15 Q. Mr. Treanor, the first section of that transcript which you have
16 highlighted is found at page 3 of the English translation.
17 A. Yes. These excerpts, as with the other Assembly sessions, will, I
18 hope, give the Court an idea course of the discussions in the session and
19 bring out some of the more salient points. Here we have Mr. Goran Zekic
20 speaking. Mr. Zekic was a -- had been elected as a deputy to the Chamber
21 of Citizens of the BH Assembly and was also a member of the SDS Main
22 Board. And he addresses in his remarks themes such as BH is now being a
23 prison for the Serbs and emphasising that it should be possible to divide
24 the republic.
25 MR. TIEGER: For the record, the first -- there's three
1 highlighted sections on page 3, the first of which is the sentence: "What
2 should be drummed into the world and Europe is that they must not defence
3 us in some sort of Bosnia-Herzegovina pin in which the Serbian people
4 should stay put like in some detention camp."
5 The second highlighted sentence begins -- the second highlighted
6 portion begins approximately two sentences after that, with the
7 words: "For this reason alone, we should be aware that Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina is no more." Discusses Alija's assertion that someone should
9 show how Bosnia and Herzegovina can be partitioned. And continues that:
10 "His ignorance is no obstacle. Bosnia and Herzegovina can be and must be
11 partitioned and his ignorance must not stand in our way," is the last
12 sentence of that highlighted portion.
13 And finally the last highlighted portion are the two sentences
14 which begin: "Today we should propose measures and adopt decisions so
15 that, at last, we can actually begin to put into practice our political
16 inclinations," and ends with the sentence which discusses the desire --
17 "The intention to stay ahead of those who wish to lock us up in some sort
18 of camp which they would then call Bosnia and Herzegovina."
19 A. This particular passage reflects the desire expressed by many of
20 the deputies at this session to now go ahead with all due speed in the
21 preparation of a constitution for the new Serbian Republic and related
22 legislation, establishing its various ministries and other institutions.
23 And the Court will notice the reference to the plebiscite, which is
24 constantly referred to by Bosnian Serb leaders as the source of their
1 Q. The next highlighted section can be found at page 7. The first
2 highlighted section begins after the first sentence of the second
3 paragraph and begins: "By now it is probably clear," and ends with the
4 language: "Better chances for them to claim these lands for themselves
5 and better chances to lord over us."
6 A. We're on Dr. Karadzic now I see.
7 Q. The second highlighted portion begins at the last full paragraph
8 of that page: "We must come to our senses," and ends with the
9 language: "So that we can accelerate our preparations for the events that
10 will follow."
11 A. Again, an expression of the desire to continue with the
12 establishment of the organs of a separate Bosnian Serb Republic.
13 Q. If we can turn to page 10 of the English translation, we see the
14 next highlight beginning at the very bottom of the page, the last sentence
15 on that page, and continuing on to page 11.
16 A. Now here we have Mr. Vjestica speaking, who was elected as a -- in
17 1990, elected as a deputy to the Chamber of Citizens. And he again
18 addresses the need to adopt the necessary legal documents so that the
19 institutions can be set up of a Bosnian Serb Republic, and also the same
20 thing done on the regional level.
21 MR. TIEGER: For the record, the sentence that began on the
22 previous page, that is, page 10, continues and it's highlighted in the
23 second sentence -- the next sentence after that is also highlighted,
24 ending with the words: "If I can call it that, like the centre." And the
25 next highlighted portion are three sentences beginning with: "The
1 operative plan should also be drawn up to define tasks precisely," and
2 ends with the sentence: "Those who feel unable, should say so now and
3 allow us to select those who can."
4 THE WITNESS: I would also draw attention to the mention of 15
5 February as sort of a deadline to complete this work. That is mentioned
6 by others later on in the session as well.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. If we could move to a highlight found at page 13 of the English
9 translation. And as we can see from the page, the speaker is
10 Mr. Cizmovic. The portion you've highlighted is the last full paragraph,
11 which begins: "To solve this problem, I propose that we begin with an
12 urgent operationalisation."
13 A. Yes. Again, Mr. Cizmovic is expressing his opinion that to forge
14 ahead with the establishment of the republic, and he refers not only to
15 the -- a declaration of 9 January on the promulgation of the republic, but
16 also the instructions of the SDS of 19 December 1991.
17 Q. And that reference is contained in the last sentence of that
18 excerpt, or that highlighted portion, which reads: "Tasks set out in the
19 instructions of 19 December 1991 should be carried out." Is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The next highlighted section is found on page 14. It's a
22 continuation of Mr. Vjestica, after a brief comment by Mr. Krajisnik. And
23 the highlighted portion is the last sentence of Mr. Vjestica's comments on
24 that page.
25 A. Again, addressing the same theme, that the need for completing the
1 work necessary to, as he puts it, "Complete the job of taking power in our
2 Serbian state."
3 Q. If we could turn to page 18 of the English translation. You've
4 highlighted comments by Mr. Krajisnik on that page.
5 A. Yes. Now, here Mr. Krajisnik is discussing the proposition which
6 I mentioned before, that the transformation of BH would have to be
7 completed and agreed on by the three national communities before the
8 Bosnian Serb leadership would agree to participate in any referendum.
9 MR. TIEGER: For the record, the specifically highlighted portions
10 are the first sentence of the second paragraph shown there,
11 beginning: "In fact, the conclusion is that the Council of Ministers."
12 And the other highlighted portion begins with the word: "It would not be
13 wise for us to oppose this referendum too." And then concludes with the
14 line: "Demand of the Serbian people to remain in a single state is
15 incorporated in it."
16 Q. Turning to the next page of the English translation, page 19,
17 you've also highlighted some additional comments by Mr. Krajisnik. And
18 those are the two sentences: "We will fix the date, as Mr. Vjestica said,
19 we must sit in some sort of permanent session. We must also meet the
21 A. Yes. So this is Mr. Krajisnik's agreement with the desire to
22 complete the legislative programme necessary for establishing the state as
23 soon as possible.
24 Q. Turning to page 20 of the English translation.
25 A. This records the adoption of a decision to that effect, that the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 work should be completed, and Mr. Krajisnik here suggests that the
2 deadline of 15 February be agreed on.
3 Q. And that is the portion that begins: "I hereby declare," and ends
4 with the words: "Should not sit and wait for 15 February."
5 If we could turn to the bottom of page 21, which continues on to
6 page 22. You've highlighted another section, also remarks by
7 Mr. Krajisnik.
8 A. Yes. Here he's suggesting that the Council of Ministers be asked
9 to draft a document for consideration by the Assembly. The matter under
10 consideration is a rather obscure one, having to do with the annual
11 budgetary balance. But he responds to some criticism from one of the
12 deputies that they had not prepared some of their -- some of the decisions
13 properly, and he responds that: No. In fact, all of the decisions we
14 have adopted have been fully realisable and we have not adopted any
15 unrealistic decisions, nothing that we cannot implement.
16 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you for one clarification at this moment,
17 Mr. Treanor. You said that the matter under consideration is a rather
18 obscure one, having to do with the annual budgetary balance. Is that your
19 interpretation of the last words of page 21 and the first words on
20 page 22, where it says: "For the partition balance sheet"? Is that what
21 you refer to, and do you consider the partition balance sheet something to
22 have to do with budget?
23 THE WITNESS: This is related to financial matters, which are
24 beyond my understanding, Your Honour. What seems to have been proposed is
25 that the assets of the republic be divided among the national communities,
1 or certainly that the incipient Bosnian Serb Republic get its share of the
2 assets of the republic. And one of the deputies is saying: Well, we
3 can't do that, because the annual balance sheet, which I presume is
4 related to the budget, because they do an annual audit on the budget which
5 is adopted by the Assembly, that these types of financial documents will
6 not be ready until March or something like that, under the normal
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your explanation.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. And for the record, the
11 highlighted portion on that page to which Mr. Treanor and the Court have
12 been referring are the continuation of the previous sentence on the top of
13 that page, which is simply three words, "Partition balance sheet," and
14 then the last two sentences of that paragraph which begin: "And if you
15 want to have a look," and then concludes with the sentence: "And
16 conclusions are instructions to someone to do something."
17 Q. Finally, Mr. Treanor, can we turn to page 23 of the English
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Krajisnik.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am following this material, so it
21 is hard for me to follow the English text. Could the Prosecutor please
22 tell me where these excerpts are in the Serbian -- in the versions in
23 Serbian, because I would like to take an active role in following these
25 JUDGE ORIE: Whether the Prosecutor is able to do so, whether
1 Mr. Treanor is better qualified to do it, is, I take it, not of major
2 concern to you, Mr. Krajisnik. I can understand that it's difficult to
3 follow if no references are made to the B/C/S version.
4 So could you please, to the extent possible, Mr. Treanor, refer to
5 the B/C/S portions as well.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I will, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
9 THE WITNESS: I think we're going to Mr. Kupresanin.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. I was actually referring to the highlighted portion at the top of
12 the English translation, which I believe --
13 A. Is Mr. Bjelosevic, or Mr. Krajisnik again.
14 Q. A continuation of --
15 A. That's Mr. Krajisnik, yes.
16 Q. And can you identify for the record the B/C/S page on which that
18 A. Well, I hope the ERN number is sufficient. In this particular
19 document, the pagination is not continuous.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, do you have ERN numbers on the top of
21 the pages?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. It will be enough for me
23 if he can only give me the number.
24 THE WITNESS: Very good. The ERN number of this page is SA025275.
25 And we're looking in the middle of the page of the original, where
1 Mr. Krajisnik speaks.
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. And the highlighted portion in English begins with the words: "I
4 think that we must issue conclusions in connection with Mr. Vjestica," and
5 ends with the language: "If by then we adopt a constitution or have the
7 A. Yes. Again, Mr. Krajisnik expressing his agreement that the
8 necessary legislation should be drawn up.
9 MS. LOUKAS: Obviously Mr. Krajisnik has not found that particular
10 portion. I think we might have to take the reference to the B/C/S version
11 a little slower so that it allows Mr. Krajisnik the opportunity to locate
12 the particular portion.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that Mr. Krajisnik is still going through
14 the document.
15 Did you find the page reference, Mr. Krajisnik?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. It's all 020579. There's
17 no 03. If this is the file, file 84.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It is tab 84, at least in the English version.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Inside in the Serbian version it's
20 also 84.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And Mr. Treanor, you were referring to what
22 page exactly?
23 THE WITNESS: The ERN is SA 025275.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I've got the B/C/S version in front of me,
25 Mr. Krajisnik. I found that page. Can you find it as well? Otherwise I
1 should ...
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I have found it. I was told it
3 was 03, not 02.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, this misunderstanding having been
5 clarified, you may proceed.
6 MR. TIEGER:
7 Q. Mr. Treanor, you were about to address that highlighted portion we
8 just mentioned.
9 A. Yes. This is Mr. Krajisnik expressing agreement that the Assembly
10 should complete the necessary legislative work as quickly as possible.
11 Q. If we can move next, then, to an intercept dated February 4th,
12 1992, found at tab 25 of the intercept binder.
13 A. I'm sorry. Is this ...
14 Q. I'm sorry. This is --
15 A. ERN number of the original transcript, 02079372?
16 Q. 02079370 is the first page of that transcript, and it's a
17 conversation between Mr. Krajisnik and Dr. Karadzic. I'm sorry. No.
18 Excuse me. I'm rechecking the ERN you provided was the correct one.
19 A. Okay. The transcript I have does not bear an exact date. It just
20 says February 1992. That's why I was --
21 JUDGE ORIE: And for your information, Mr. Krajisnik, we find the
22 B/C/S version always next to the English translation.
23 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I might indicate that Mr. Krajisnik has
24 the documents but doesn't actually have the intercepts, because he's able
25 to look at it from the screen. And to listen, of course, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 [Intercept played]
3 THE WITNESS: Here we have another conversation between
4 Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik, discussing various issues and meetings.
5 Many of the references are obscure. However, the reference to a meeting
6 in Doboj, we've been able to clarify to a certain extent. There was a
7 meeting of leaders of three of the Serbian autonomous districts in Doboj
8 on the 5th of February, which would date this intercept, obviously, before
9 that. And we -- the only thing we know about what transpired at that
10 meeting is from a newspaper article, which I think we will be seeing.
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. If we could turn next to tab 85, very quickly. This is another
13 entry from the Grkovic [phoen] diary, I believe.
14 A. Yes. Here is the entry for the 5th of February, and it refers to
15 a meeting of the regions of Central Bosnia and Krajina in Doboj, at 12.00.
16 Q. 13 February 1992, article from Derventski List is found at tab 86
17 is depicted on the screen. The first page of that document you've
18 highlighted the first three paragraphs and then the fifth paragraph.
19 A. Yes. This is the newspaper article I referred to that sheds some
20 light on what happened in Doboj. I'll have to refer to the calendar here.
21 The 13th of February was a Thursday, which is the date of the newspaper,
22 and the article refers to -- discusses two meetings which can lead to some
23 confusion in reading the article. It refers to a meeting the previous
24 weekend of the Doboj SDS, and that would have been the weekend of the 8th
25 and the 9th of February. And at that meeting, Mr. Bjelosevic, who I think
1 we just ran into in the Assembly session, gives a report to the people
2 present at that session about the meeting in Doboj. So the first part of
3 this article relates his report about the meeting in Doboj on the 5th of
4 February, which was a Wednesday.
5 And if we could magnify the second two paragraphs, perhaps. The
6 first paragraph, as you can see, indicates some of the people that were
7 present at Doboj, including Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, and
8 Mr. Maksimovic. And the third paragraph indicates that the two main
9 topics of discussion at the Doboj meeting were the referendum, which I
10 said is the issue that dominates political discourse in Bosnia during this
11 period, and the future of Northern Bosnia within the future BH.
12 Q. Turning now to the second page of that document. You've
13 highlighted the first three paragraphs.
14 A. Yes. The report indicated on the previous page in one of the
15 highlighted portions that the issue of Northern Bosnia was in fact the
16 issue that attracted greatest interest at the meeting.
17 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask one question in respect of this
18 article. Bridge to the Krajinas. Comparing the original with the
19 translation, Mr. Treanor, is it correct that the entry or summary which
20 appears just below the title is not translated?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, that appears to be correct.
22 JUDGE ORIE: So it's not a full translation of what appears in the
23 article? And I'm not now referring to what seems to be above the title,
24 which seems to be a reference to the SDS.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, Serbian Democratic Party, it says up there.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's not translated. And bridge to Krajina
2 is translated. But the next six lines are not translated; is that
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Tieger, the Chamber is always very happy to
6 either find an indication of parts not being translated or to receive full
7 translations of documents, especially where it says, "full translation" on
8 top of the -- this page. Please proceed. And perhaps you could provide
9 the Chamber with a translation of that part as well, so that we have every
10 information available.
11 MR. TIEGER: We will do that, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Please proceed.
13 MR. TIEGER:
14 Q. Mr. Treanor, you were referring to the discussion about the
15 meeting as reflected in the paragraphs you've highlighted on page 2 of the
17 A. Yes. This highlighted portion reflects the concern about the
18 situation in a portion of Northern Bosnia along the Sava River, which is
19 located between Eastern Bosnia and Western Bosnia, but is not dominated
20 ethnographically by the Serbs, but would be very important as a
21 geographical link between Eastern and Western Bosnia, and indeed beyond
22 Western Bosnia to the Croatian Krajina, the Republic of Serbian Krajina.
23 And the idea here is broached of a transfer of population between --
24 involving the Croats living in Bosnia along the river and the Serbs living
25 on the other side of the river, in Croatia, in order to consolidate the --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 what they refer to as a bridge, ethnographically for the Serbs. Moslavina
2 being an area in Croatia just north of the Sava River.
3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I was about to move on to the next item,
4 but it appeared to me the Court was reviewing the document. I didn't want
5 to move prematurely.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I was just reading it. Mr. Treanor, is the reference
7 to the highway, is that the highway north of the River Sava connecting
8 Belgrade and Zagreb? Is that what reference is made to?
9 THE WITNESS: Which paragraph?
10 JUDGE ORIE: It says the uncertain route. "Because the highway
11 will be an uncertain route for Serbs for some time to come." I'm just
12 trying to understand what it ...
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, that could be a reference to the main highway
14 linking Zagreb and Belgrade, which runs just north of the Sava River.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And north of the frontier between --
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- between -- the border between Bosnia and
18 Herzegovina and --
19 THE WITNESS: Right, yes, in Croatia.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Croatia, yes.
21 THE WITNESS: That would be the main route.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for this clarification.
23 THE WITNESS: Under normal circumstances, but given the war that's
24 going on or the -- well, that had been concluded, but the situation was
25 still very tense there with the establishment of Serbian power in certain
1 parts along that route and the Croatian Republic exercising authority
2 along others.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 MR. TIEGER: Next item, Your Honours, can be found at tab 26 of
5 the intercept binder. It is a conversation between Dr. Karadzic and
6 Mr. Kupresanin.
7 THE WITNESS: Mr. Kupresanin, who we've met a couple of times, has
8 called Karadzic to inform him about a meeting of Serbian Orthodox bishops
9 which is due to take place in Western Bosnia and suggesting that maybe he
10 or other SDS leaders might like to come. But it moves on from there, as
11 we'll see.
12 [Intercept played]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the record, we started on page 3 of the
14 transcript, I take it.
15 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, that is correct. Thank you.
16 THE WITNESS: As we can see, Dr. Karadzic had to demure on the
17 meeting with the bishops in Western Bosnia and informs Mr. Kupresanin of
18 an upcoming big meeting of SDS leaders, and he indicates who is going to
19 be there, along the lines I've indicated before, basically getting the
20 various groups of SDS party and state office holders together in one
22 MR. TIEGER:
23 Q. Turning very quickly to tab 87, is there an entry in the Grkovic
24 diary reflecting that meeting?
25 A. Yes. Here we see the entry for events on the 14th of February,
1 indicating a meeting of the Main and Executive Boards and assemblymen at
3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, at tab 27 of the intercepts binder
4 you'll find a transcript of a speech by Dr. Karadzic given at that
5 meeting, and that's the next document to which we'll turn.
6 THE WITNESS: I would just clarify on that previous document where
7 it's translated as "assemblymen," that is the word that I've been
8 rendering here as "deputies." That is references to the deputies to the
9 Assembly, the Republic Assembly.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. Mr. Treanor, the first portion of that speech which you have
12 highlighted is found at page 2.
13 A. Yes. Dr. Karadzic gives a rather lengthy address to the assembled
14 officials and covers a variety of topics, including the general political
15 situation and the situation in the party. Here he indicates in this
16 particular sentence a point which I've tried to emphasise before, his
17 recognition of the importance of the -- again, the word here,
18 "representatives" is the same word that I've been rendering as
19 "deputies," as their importance in the -- within the set-up of the SDS
20 and the Bosnian Serb leadership in general.
21 Q. And for the record that is the sentence that begins at line 12 and
22 ends at line 14: "So party officials are not authority to us, authority
23 for us, or first of all the representatives," and so on.
24 Next highlighted portion is found at page 3 of the transcript.
25 And continues on to the next page. It begins at line 27.
1 A. Yes. Now, in this particular passage, Dr. Karadzic moves on to
2 the theme of establishing control of territory for the republic which has
3 been proclaimed.
4 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you, Mr. Tieger. There seems to be
5 some difference between the text we see on the screen and the text we have
6 in hard copy in front of us. The words, "Especially because we
7 proclaimed," which appear on line 27 on the screen, appear on line 26 on
8 our hard copy. I don't know what could explain the difference, but it
9 seems that the two copies we're working with are not -- at least not
10 exactly the same. I'm not suggesting that there's any major difference or
11 that the content would be different, but I just note that what you refer
12 to as starting at line 27 starts at line 26 in our copy.
13 MR. TIEGER: Well, thank you for catching that, Your Honour.
14 First of all, I'll do some checking to see if that slight discrepancy can
15 be explained. And in addition, I will indicate for the record what the
16 highlighted portion is, not simply by reference to the numbers, but by a
17 more precise reference to the selection itself.
18 Q. Sorry, Mr. Treanor. Did you want us to continue on to the next
20 A. Well, I'd just like to comment about this passage as a bit of
21 background here. I mentioned the opinion of the Badinter Commission,
22 which, among other things, was a tribute to the work of the Bosnian Serb
23 Assembly in that it prevented any outright decision on the recognition
24 of BH. Things have now progressed to the point where the International
25 Conference on the Former Yugoslavia is holding sessions, negotiating
1 sessions, under the auspices of Mr. Cutilheiro, Ambassador Cutilheiro, I
2 believe, of Portugal, and these negotiations included representatives of
3 all the three national communities in Bosnia. Or let me put it another
4 way, representatives of the ruling political parties, the SDA, the HDZ,
5 and the SDS. So the SDS leaders have now gotten themselves into
6 negotiations in an international forum. The first session of those
7 negotiations was held in Sarajevo on the 13th of February, that is, the
8 day before this meeting. The reference to the map could be a reference to
9 a map that was produced at that meeting. I do not know what map it is or
10 whose map -- who may have produced it, but I think that may be the
12 The reference to 61 per cent of the territory is not entirely
13 clear either. Since he refers to Mr. Izetbegovic, and because, as we
14 know, there were negotiations going on between the Bosnian Serbs and the
15 Bosnian Croats, that percentage could represent the total of territory
16 which was being assigned in that map to the Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian
17 Croats. Or it could be the territory that the Bosnian Serb leaders were
18 claiming for themselves.
19 Q. And I'm sorry, Mr. Treanor. I neglected to ask you, although you
20 may have mentioned it, for the B/C/S reference to that page, if you have
21 it in front of you.
22 A. Yes, certainly. The ERN number is 04002198, and this passage
23 begins at the very bottom of that page.
24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, counsel previously noted that
25 Mr. Krajisnik did not have in front of him the B/C/S versions of the
1 intercepts because, under normal circumstances, he was following them on
2 screen and listening to the contents. This document, however, is found in
3 the intercepts binder.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.
5 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. That is the situation. Our case manager and I
6 have actually the intercepts binder, because normally, of course, the
7 intercepts are played and we can hear them, and of course, importantly,
8 Mr. Krajisnik can hear them. But in the intercepts binder is, of course,
9 this particular speech, so Mr. Krajisnik doesn't have that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So whenever it comes to transcripts not of any
11 intercepted telephone conversations, we have a problem. What I -- do we
12 have a -- at the end of the English version, we find B/C/S versions. So,
13 for example, in 27, the English version is -- takes 31 pages, and then at
14 least, even in my English, or my binder, I find the B/C/S text. Does
15 Mr. Krajisnik -- could someone perhaps give, if it were only temporarily,
16 a copy to Mr. Krajisnik of the --
17 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. That's what we're actually
18 proposing to do, because we actually received two copies of most of these
19 folders from the Prosecution, that is, a folder with just English and a
20 folder with English and B/C/S. But in relation to the intercepts folder
21 all we received was one folder with both English and B/C/S. But for the
22 purposes of what we're dealing with now, we'll hand over to Mr. Krajisnik
23 the B/C/S copy of this particular speech.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I think you would have 20 minutes for that,
25 because we're about to have a break, Mr. Tieger, unless there would be --
1 this would not be a suitable moment. But then it would have to be within
2 one or two minutes.
3 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour. It appears to be a suitable moment,
4 for more than one reason.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll adjourn until 10 minutes to 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Preliminarily, with reference to the precise pagination and format
11 of the speech, there is a technical explanation for that. I'm not sure
12 the Court -- how deeply the Court wants me to get into that, but it's
13 fairly clear. When a Word document is converted into the electronic
14 format, apparently that results in a slight deviation, which is normally
15 not significant. But because we have the enumerated figures at the side
16 of the page, for this particular document, it was noticeable and played a
17 role in identifying the particular location of any segment. We're having
18 it reprinted in the -- from the TIF format in this particular case because
19 of the unique circumstances of the speech.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your explanation, Mr. Tieger. Yes, you
21 may proceed.
22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
23 Q. Mr. Treanor, before the break you mentioned the negotiations which
24 had begun shortly before the Deputies' Club meeting at which
25 Dr. Karadzic's speech was given. Do his remarks in that speech reflect
1 the steps that should be taken in conjunction with those ongoing
3 A. Well, we've seen the reference to the map here. I'm not sure of
4 any other direct -- possibly direct connection at this time with the
5 negotiations. Maybe we'll see that in the further excerpts.
6 Q. Well, let's turn to the next highlighted portion of the speech,
7 which is found on pages 5 and 6 of the English translation, and if you
8 could identify the B/C/S page numbers on which those appear.
9 A. Yes. This excerpt appears on page 04002200, and it's in the
10 middle of that page in the original.
11 MR. TIEGER: For the record, the highlighted portion that appears
12 in English is found at the bottom -- or begins at the bottom quarter of
13 page 5 with the statement: "The factual situation is so-and-so, now it is
14 so, now it's up to us." And continues to the bottom of the page and then
15 on, on to the next page, which we'll identify when it appears on screen.
16 A. Now, in this portion of his remarks, Dr. Karadzic makes reference
17 to the second degree, or, as it seems to be translated here, stage
18 number 2, which seems to be a reference to the 19 December 1991
19 instructions, that is, the Variant A and B document.
20 Q. And is that reference, Mr. Treanor, found at the bottom of that
22 A. Yes. That's the very bottom of the page in the translation, which
23 goes on to the next page. In the original, it's all on the same page.
24 MR. TIEGER: And for the record, that highlighted section begins
25 at the top of the page, of course, and continues to the sentence: "They
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 will not strive to establish cantonal authorities, that is, some
2 authorities of their republic, so you have a big advantage over them now."
3 And again, the reference is found at the top of that page, that
4 is, "Therefore, the stage number two, the second stage in smaller or
5 bigger variations, but you have to implement that slowly now."
6 Q. Mr. Treanor, any further comments in that particular highlighted
8 A. No.
9 Q. On page 11 of the English translation, you've highlighted a
10 section that begins: "Krajisnik and I went to Titograd twice," and
11 continues on to the bottom of the page and, obviously, on to the next
13 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honours, just in relation to that, if we could
14 have the B/C/S identifying page number.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes. I just found that location. It is 04002204,
16 and it's toward the bottom of that page. Here Dr. Karadzic addresses the
17 subject of relations between Serbia and Montenegro and the relations of
18 the Bosnian Serbs with those two republics.
19 MR. TIEGER: And for the record, the highlighted section continues
20 on to page 12 of the English translation, concluding that sentence.
21 Q. If we could turn, then, to page 14 of the English translation.
22 You have highlighted a section that appears in approximately the bottom
23 third of the page and begins: "The map that we saw includes over 90
24 per cent of Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina."
25 A. Yes. This excerpt begins on page 04002206, at the bottom, and
1 continues on to the next page. In it, Dr. Karadzic refers to the good
2 outlook which seems to exist within the framework of the negotiations.
3 Again, the reference to the map. The good outlook that seems to be
4 offered for keeping as many Serbs as possible within one entity in Bosnia
5 and Herzegovina. And he seems to be saying that it won't be everybody,
6 but it's something that we can be satisfied with.
7 Q. And as indicated before, that highlighted section continues on to
8 page 15, with the completion of the sentence begun on the previous page,
9 thereby ending with the line: "Then to have all this thousand, a million
10 and a half Serbs, to stay in Bosnia and Herzegovina."
11 A. Yes. The idea voiced here just above that seems to be similar to
12 the idea that we saw in the meeting with the Croatian officials at the
13 beginning of January, that is, once these -- the boundaries of the ethnic
14 communities, the new entities and the transformed BH were established,
15 that there would probably be a process of people migrating to their own
16 entity if they didn't live in it already.
17 Q. Now, in addition to addressing the negotiations that are ongoing,
18 the call for stage 2 to begin in addition, does Dr. Karadzic express a
19 view of why ethnic separation is necessary?
20 A. Yes. There is a section which I have selected which I hope we're
21 going to see now, in which he addresses his views on the ability of
22 Muslims to live with others.
23 Q. Let me turn to the highlighted section which begins at the bottom
24 of page 18, last two sentences of that page, beginning: "Gentlemen, the
25 moment the Muslims get hold of the fundamentalism, they cannot live
1 anywhere, with nobody --"
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Your Honours. I don't
3 have the page number again.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I saw you struggling with it, but
5 since I was informed that I should not start speaking until the
6 translation is finished, I tried to obey that. But, Mr. Treanor, would
7 you please indicate where to find --
8 THE WITNESS: Yes. I was waiting for an appropriate moment to
9 jump in as well, Your Honour. This is at the very top of 04002210.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Treanor, as long as we are in this document, the
11 0400 is always there, so if you --
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- give the last four digits, that would be enough.
14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I have here now the reprinted versions
15 of the speech. I don't know if the Court finds it necessary to distribute
16 them at this moment or if we should wait for an appropriate break.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I think we could do that during the break and
18 continue now. Please proceed.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. Then, Mr. Treanor, you were about to address the selected portions
21 beginning at the bottom of 18 and continuing on to 19.
22 A. Yes. In this section, as I think I said, Dr. Karadzic addresses
23 his views -- expresses his views on the ability of Muslims to live with
24 other peoples in the same state, and he goes on to quote the poet Njegos,
25 who we've already referred to, the great Montenegrin national poet.
1 Q. And is that found in the section where Mr. Karadzic mentions two
2 soups would not get mixed in the same pot?
3 A. Yes, precisely.
4 Q. The top of the page, Dr. Karadzic refers to India and Kashmir,
5 India and Pakistan in dramatic exchanges of population.
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. And is that a theme that we'll see rising again in the course of
8 later remarks by Dr. Karadzic in other speeches?
9 A. Yes. This is one of his favourite analogies, similar to the one
10 about the plebiscite in Carinthia, which he continually refers to. He
11 likes to use this analogy of India and Pakistan in describing the
12 prospects for the possibilities of life between Muslims and non-Muslims in
13 the same state.
14 MR. TIEGER: And for the record, I had indicated previously that
15 the selected portion or the highlighted portion which began at the bottom
16 of page 18 continues on to 19. It is found at the beginning of the page,
17 of course, where it says: "Nowhere." And continues with: "India and
18 Kashmir." And ends with the two lines: "We are really something
19 different, something different, and we should not hide that. We are not
20 brothers. We must know that."
21 Q. And turning to page 24 of the English translation, does
22 Dr. Karadzic call again for the introduction of the second level?
23 MS. LOUKAS: Just in terms of ensuring that the page references go
24 a little more cleanly, I was wondering if Mr. Tieger, when he mentions the
25 English page, could then immediately mention the B/C/S page, or call upon
1 the witness to go to the B/C/S page, so that Mr. Krajisnik can find the
2 page before Mr. Tieger starts formulating the rest of the question.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps that could be a very practical way of
4 proceeding. Whenever you make reference to a page, you'd stop
5 immediately, Mr. Tieger, and then Mr. Treanor would indicate what page in
6 the B/C/S that would be.
7 Yes. Please proceed. We are now on page 24 of the English
8 translation, and that would be, Mr. Treanor?
9 THE WITNESS: At the top of 2214.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 THE WITNESS: And the highlighted section, Your Honour, begins
12 with the words: "They must be 100 per cent sure, to where a certain move
13 leads." And it ends then with the calling of a break. "I am asking you
14 for a break. What do you say, half an hour?"
15 The reference in the translation, as I can see, to the second
16 level, is the same expression that we saw before and is in the Variant A
17 and B documents, which would literally be translated as the second degree,
18 or could be literally translated as the second degree.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. And that is a reference, Mr. Treanor, to the portion of the
21 highlighted section where Dr. Karadzic says: "That is why we called you
22 today, to intensify, to introduce the second level, and to intensify the
23 functioning of the government at any cost and on every single millimetre
24 of our territory."
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 MR. TIEGER: And Your Honour, the last highlighted section is
2 found on page 26 of the English translation. I know Mr. Treanor will
3 address the B/C/S portion, but I note that we will be playing that on the
4 Sanction on -- through the tape. So that will be the equivalent of an
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. Mr. Treanor, if you just have that page number handy for
10 A. Well, unless I'm mistaken, it would be on 2215.
11 Q. In any event, it's noted --
12 A. It's in the middle of that page.
13 Q. That will be available to Mr. Krajisnik orally, or audibly.
14 [Intercept played]
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. Mr. Treanor, any comment on that last highlighted section of the
18 A. Well, yes. Just to remind the Court, here we see a reference to
19 the Belgrade Initiative, which we considered earlier, and Dr. Karadzic
20 saying that at this point in time, that even that would not be enough for
21 the Bosnian Serb leadership.
22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, if we can turn now to tab 88. That is
23 the 7th Session of the Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia and
24 Herzegovina, which was held on 15 February 1992.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes. Now, the main business of this session was to
1 consider the drafts that had been prepared of a constitution and related
2 legislation necessary to set up government organs within the proclaimed
3 Serbian Republic. If the Court will recall, at the session on the 25th of
4 January, there had been some discussion of that, and the necessity for
5 pushing that forward, a deadline of the 15th of February had been
6 mentioned. In fact, in the published version of the decisions of that
7 session, that deadline is not mentioned. It refers to doing it as soon as
8 possible, but in fact we see them meeting here on the 15th of February to
9 consider precisely that package of legislation.
10 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one question in respect of this
11 document which we find under tab 88. The English version
12 says, "Tape-recording," whereas the B/C/S version starts with the word
13 which very much looks like, "Stenographic." Is that the same, or could
14 you explain whether there's any difference. Because stenographic
15 recording of a meeting is perhaps not the same as tape-recording.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. There are, in fact, two records of this
17 meeting, both the stenographic record and a transcript of the
18 tape-recording. The copy I am looking at, the document I am looking at,
19 is the transcript of the audio recording.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And is that exactly the same as the B/C/S
21 version which starts with the stenographic recording? Because
22 Mr. Krajisnik, I take it, will look at the B/C/S version of this document.
23 So I just wonder whether it's exactly the same or whether there are any
25 THE WITNESS: Between the transcript of the recording and the
1 stenographic record?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I see, at least, that the front page,
3 that, to the extent I can understand it, that the one is referring to
4 another technique than the other one, and I just wondered whether this had
5 any consequences in the text.
6 THE WITNESS: The two documents are not exactly the same. The
7 transcript of the tape-recording is 67 pages long and the stenographic
8 record is 61 pages long. The stenographic record tends to be cleaned up a
9 little bit to -- from the format point of view, to make the -- various
10 decisions that were adopted stand out better in the text, that type of
11 thing. At certain points, it summarises, say, the adoption of a decision,
12 rather than giving verbatim what is said, and it does vary from session to
13 session, where we do have two records, sometimes we see the stenographic
14 record summarising rather than reporting verbatim discussion, and there
15 are occasional differences in the wording between the speeches that are
16 reproduced in both of them. So the two documents are not exactly the
18 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please keep that in mind when we discuss
19 these documents, that there could be some confusion as far as details are
20 concerned. But I also do understand that mainly it is representing the
21 same spoken words.
22 THE WITNESS: In the main, yes.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is a bit concerned about different
25 versions and would like to ensure that whatever English versions we work
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 off is a precise translation of the document Mr. Krajisnik has in front of
2 him. So therefore, since I have got in my -- in binder 8 both versions,
3 English and B/C/S, if we cannot be sure that the document with -- starting
4 with the ERN number 00898063 would be exactly the same document as the
5 English document 01105038, if that is not for certain, then I would invite
6 the Prosecution to move forwards and, as soon as they have provided
7 Mr. Krajisnik with exactly the same document, that you can come back to
8 this issue, but not deal with it on the basis of two documents that are
9 not exactly the same. Do I understand that these documents are not
10 exactly the same, the B/C/S version indicating that it's a stenographic
11 report, and the English one saying that it's a tape-recording?
12 Mr. Tieger.
13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I do not have the B/C/S version in front
14 of me, but I come to the same conclusion the Court did, based on the
15 information just provided, and that is that the stenographic B/C/S version
16 was inadvertently conjoined with the English translation of the tape, and
17 I agree; we will attempt, and I trust will have forthwith, the
18 corresponding B/C/S version.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's, then, proceed in this way, and as soon
20 as the matter has been settled, that you could come back to this issue,
21 but not at this very moment. Please proceed.
22 MR. TIEGER: Then, Your Honour, I'd like to move forward to tab 90
23 of the binder. That contains an English translation of a letter of 20
24 February 1992 from the SDS Executive Board to SDS municipal boards.
25 Q. Mr. Treanor, do you have that document in front of you?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. And what can you tell us about that particular document?
3 A. Well, as the Court can see, this is a letter from the secretary of
4 the Executive Board of the SDS to the municipal boards, sending to them a
5 copy of a proclamation to the Serbian people in BH in connection with the
6 upcoming referendum and asking them to assure that that proclamation is
7 distributed to every Serbian home. As we've seen before on a number of
8 occasions, the SDS was very anxious, Dr. Karadzic in particular, that the
9 members of the local community boards be responsible for a certain number
10 of Serbian homes, so that they were in a position to get information and
11 distribute materials to every Serbian home in the republic.
12 Q. And if we could turn to page 2 of that document, or to an
13 attachment to that document. You've highlighted the second paragraph,
14 which begins: "By voting on the referendum of citizens."
15 A. Yes. Now, here we see in this particular document which was to be
16 distributed the fear expressed of the establishment of an Islamic state in
17 BH, should the Serbs become a national minority in somebody else's state,
18 in this case it was referred to as an Islamic state.
19 Q. I believe that tab 91 contains a proclamation to the Serbian
20 people. BH is -- are there significant differences between the document
21 we've just reviewed and that document that require us to call it on screen
22 and --
23 A. Yes. The content of that document is quite a bit different. The
24 thrust of that -- this proclamation is that the Serbian people have
25 already had their plebiscite, so there's no necessity for them to vote in
1 the upcoming referendum. But on the other hand, nothing should be done to
2 disturb the carrying out of that referendum, since the other two peoples
3 are entitled to have their vote as well.
4 Q. If we could turn next, then, to tab 92, the next document you've
5 selected. This is a document headed, "Presidency of social federative
6 Republic of Yugoslavia." Dated 24 February 1992, indicating, "Deliver
8 A. Yes. This is an invitation to a meeting in Belgrade of the
9 Presidency of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I'm looking
10 at the date. There are two similar documents. There had been an
11 invitation to -- issued on the 21st of February to a session on the 27th
12 of February, and on the 24th of February, the invitees were informed that
13 the date of the meeting had been postponed to the 28th. The people
14 invited are basically the -- aside from the leaders of the -- of Serbia
15 and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Montenegro, the leaders of the
16 Bosnian Serbs and the Croatian Serbs, including Dr. Karadzic,
17 Mr. Krajisnik, Dr. Koljevic, and Dr. Plavsic. Here we see the first
18 letter that went out on the 21st of September, and that letter specifies
19 what the agenda for the meeting will be.
20 Q. And that's the portion presently highlighted on the screen?
21 A. Yes. And under number 3, the Court will see that one of the items
22 is: "Consideration of the basis of the constitutional order and
23 functioning of Yugoslavia as a joint state."
24 Q. Now, on February 25th, 1992, the 8th Session of the Assembly of
25 the Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina was held. And that's found
1 at tab 93 and I believe is the next document you've selected, Mr. Treanor.
2 A. Yes. Before we get into this document, I would like to point out
3 to the Court that the negotiations under international auspices among the
4 three parties in BH were continuing. There was a session in Lisbon on the
5 21st and 22nd of February, possibly continuing into the 23rd, at which an
6 agreement was reached, in principle, on a statement of principles for the
7 new constitutional arrangement for BH. And there was much discussion of
8 those negotiations at the session of the 25th with Dr. Karadzic and the
9 others who participated in those discussions, including, I believe,
10 Dr. Koljevic and Mr. Krajisnik, informed the deputies of what went on
12 The statement of principles included a number of points, including
13 the internal organisation of BH. One of the important points, though,
14 especially in connection with the maps we've seen mentioned, was the -- at
15 the end of the document, the definition of the constituent units. Just to
16 cite a bit from that document adopted in Lisbon on the 23rd, it states
17 that: "The territory of the constituent units would be defined on the
18 basis of the 1971, 1989, or 1991 census, and the existing communes, with
19 only such small adjustments as may be clearly justified. In such a way,
20 the communes," that means the municipalities, "where one particular nation
21 is clearly in a majority are grouped together into the appropriate
22 constituent unit. A state may have several separate of parts," and it
23 goes on about arbitration commission and that type of thing.
24 So the idea there agreed in principle was that there would be
25 constituent units composed basically of groups of the existing
1 municipalities in BH and that the constituent units themselves could
2 possibly be in more than one part, that is, not entirely continuous
4 Q. The first highlighted portion of the session of 25 February
5 appears on page 9 of the English translation, and that would be what page
6 of the B/C/S?
7 A. Well, I am looking at the stenographic record, and that would be
8 Dr. Karadzic speaking at the bottom of SA 025444.
9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may. I believe this previous
10 problem was caused -- the previous need to refer to ERN numbers was a
11 reflection of a particular document which I think bore some odd
12 pagination. I have the B/C/S numbers for this particular document and can
13 refer directly to the corresponding B/C/S page. That would be the bottom
14 of page 9 and top of page 10 of the B/C/S.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's right.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever you are able to mention the B/C/S page
17 numbers, then of course it would solve the problem as well. Please
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. The first highlighted section is found in the middle of the page.
21 It is the third full paragraph, beginning: "Members of minorities in a
22 constituent unit."
23 A. Yes. This is part of - and I think we're going to see a bit
24 more - of Dr. Karadzic's report to the deputies on the results of the
25 discussions in Lisbon.
1 Q. And the reference from: "Major relocations from one unit to
2 another without a special permit are not foreseen, as that would upset the
3 national mix," is that a reference to a concern that was expressed to
4 negotiators and that the Bosnian Serb leaders attempted to build into
5 the --
6 A. Yes. Well, one of the concerns that they had -- the Bosnian Serbs
7 had, certainly, as we have seen reflected in many of the documents, was
8 the concern that, in particular, Muslims would move into what they
9 regarded as their areas. As we've seen, they have in the past discussed
10 means to prevent that. In this portion, he seems to be assuring the
11 delegates that that could not happen, because people wouldn't be able to
12 move without a special permit. Presumably, the permit in question is
13 issued by the entity that people want to move into. And if, presumably,
14 Serbs wanted to move into the Serbian entity, they would be given such a
15 permit, since, as we have also seen, that one of the things that they
16 foresaw was that Serbs, for instance, would tend to migrate to the Serbian
17 entity, something which they looked on favourably
18 Q. The previous sentence refers to total freedom of movement and
19 moving from one constituent unit and taking up residence in another. Are
20 those two sentences somehow in conflict, or is there a -- are they
21 reconciled in the original B/C/S, or is there an explanation that assists
22 us in understanding those two sentences together?
23 A. Well, I'd have to look at the original here. Absolute freedom of
24 movement, that is, settlement from one constituent unit to the other.
25 From one constituent unit. Ah. In the original, it says -- here there is
1 also absolute freedom of movement, that is, settlement from one
2 constituent unit into another part of the same constituent unit.
3 Therefore, any major resettlement without a special permit from one unit
4 into another unit is not foreseen. So the freedom of movement relates to
5 movement within a constituent unit.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Do I therefore understand that the translation is not
7 correct in English, where it says: "This includes total freedom of
8 movement, which means moving from one constituent unit and taking up
9 residence in another."
10 THE WITNESS: Yes. It should read: "In another part of the same
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. TIEGER:
14 Q. The second highlighted section begins at the bottom of page 9, and
15 it appears on page 10 of the B/C/S version, and that begins: "A
16 constituent unit may consist of a number of separate parts."
17 A. Yes. That reflects the portion of the document which I read
19 Q. And then it continues on to the top of page 10 of the English
20 translation, concluding the sentence: "Connect all the parts, the whole
21 of the Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina, it would leave the Muslims in five
22 to six enclaves, Croats in two to three."
23 A. Yes. Apparently - and again, we do not have all the maps that
24 were under discussion here - the Bosnian Serb delegation presented a map
25 that would have connected all of their territory but not that of the
1 Muslims and Croats.
2 Q. If we could turn to the highlighted section found on page 14 of
3 the English version and page 16 of the B/C/S version. In the English,
4 that is the last paragraph of page 14, beginning with: "Another general
6 A. Yes. Now, here Dr. Koljevic is speaking, supplementing
7 Dr. Karadzic's remarks.
8 Q. And does he assess the significance of developments and their
10 A. Yes. He refers to the establishment of the SDS as being
11 apparently, in his view, the most important development for the Bosnian
12 Serbs in the recent past, then regionalisation, and then the current
13 discussion of the establishment of a Serbian entity within BH.
14 Q. Mr. Treanor, I direct your attention next to the highlighted
15 section on page 16 of the English version, and pages 18 to 19 of the
16 B/C/S. In the English version, the highlighted section begins with the
17 third full paragraph and the words: "On the other hand," and continues
18 into the -- and the next paragraph that -- contains the next paragraph,
19 and then a portion of the third paragraph, down to the section
20 that: "Some of our people, whether consciously or not, make the job much
21 more difficult."
22 A. Yes. This is Dr. Karadzic speaking again.
23 Q. And in that portion, does Dr. Karadzic address the ultimate goal
24 and the pace at which it can be achieved?
25 A. Yes. Now, what's being referred to here is the fact that the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Bosnian Serb negotiators, having gotten into this international forum,
2 have run into some of the political reality in the outside world and have
3 discovered that the international community, the European Community in
4 particular - I think it's actually the European Union at this point in
5 1992 - would not countenance a partition of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that
6 is, letting part of Bosnia and Herzegovina remain within Yugoslavia as the
7 Serbs desired, whereas the rest would be an independent state or
8 something. That was not on, but that was -- what was possible was the
9 establishment of different ethnic units or cantons within Bosnia and
11 Now, this represents, from the Bosnian Serb point of view, a --
12 quite a retreat from the position that they had been adopting and that of
13 course was reinforced by the plebiscite, that is, that they remain in
14 Yugoslavia. So Dr. Karadzic and other leaders were at pains to emphasise
15 to the deputies that the results of the negotiations so far were good and
16 that if they resulted in an agreement along the lines that was foreseen,
17 that that was just the first step toward their ultimate goal.
18 Q. Turning now to page 19 of the English translation and page 22 of
19 the B/C/S. You have highlighted two paragraphs, the first of which
20 begins: "Our strategic goals are beginning to materialise." The last
21 portion of the second paragraph highlighted is: "As the popular saying
22 goes, if kicked out the door, go back through the window. You will still
23 be in the same place."
24 A. Yes. Here we see Dr. Karadzic addressing the issue of the
25 significance of remaining within BH for the present. The important thing
1 to achieve right now was to realise or confirm, establish, their internal
2 borders within BH, that is, the limits within BH of the Serbian
3 constituent unit.
4 Q. And with reference to the proverb quoted by Dr. Karadzic at the
5 end, is that connected with his comment that what matters is that -- who
6 cares about external borders. What matters is that the ones within BH
7 become as wide as possible?
8 A. Yes. The idea here seems to be that - in the original, I would
9 translate it more like as thick as possible - that the separation within
10 Bosnia between the constituent -- prospective constituent ethnic units be
11 as deep as possible, that is, that those borders be even more significant
12 than the external borders.
13 Q. If we could turn to page 20 of the English translation and page 23
14 of the B/C/S translation. You've highlighted, as we see on the screen in
15 the English translation, four paragraphs, beginning: "As I was a
16 participant in the Lisbon talks, I would like to add a few remarks."
17 A. Yes. Here we now see Mr. Krajisnik adding his contribution to the
18 extensive reports which have been given on the negotiations, especially by
19 Dr. Karadzic and then by Dr. Koljevic. And here he lays out what he sees
20 as the two options before the Serbian people at the present time.
21 Q. The first of which is to fight by political means, to make the
22 most, as a first phase, at the present time. And the second of which is
23 to break off the talks and go for what we have done over the centuries,
24 win our own territories by force?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Page 23 of the English translation and page 27 of the B/C/S,
2 you've highlighted another portion.
3 A. Yes. Now, at this point we're into discussion by the deputies at
4 this point. Professor Milutin Najdanovic is speaking, I believe. He's
5 identified as Ajdanovic in the record, so I presume that's Professor
6 Najdanovic, who was a deputy in the Chamber of Citizens in the BH
7 Assembly, and, of course, a member of the Bosnian Serb Assembly.
8 Q. And if we could focus for a moment on that first highlight, which
9 begins: "When the Croato-Serbian face-off begins," and ends: "Already
10 now it should be signalled to the Serbian people that there may be
11 territorial exchanges and relocations of the populations."
12 A. Yes. This is a rather obscure reference, probably in connection
13 with the discussions going on with the Croats, or at least the idea that
14 Croats are an important factor in this situation and that it may be
15 advisable to work out a deal with them, which may entail some exchanges of
16 population and territories.
17 Q. If we could move forward to page 44 of the English translation.
18 That would be pages -- or the highlighted section would be shown on -- or
19 captured within page 55 and 56 of the B/C/S translation.
20 A. What page is that in the B/C/S?
21 Q. 55 and 56, I guess the bottom of 55 and moving on into 56. Sorry.
22 I know that I've been saying B/C/S translation. Forgive me for that. Of
23 course, it's the original.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's understood, Mr. Tieger.
25 A. Here we have Dr. Karadzic speaking again.
1 MR. TIEGER:
2 Q. Now, in the highlighted section, Dr. Karadzic is speaking about:
3 "Keeping Bosnian Krajina from becoming an issue and the fear that if it
4 does, Knin Krajina will be lost, that UN forces will be sent in, two zones
5 will be created, with the UN in place, blacks and dark-skinned kids being
6 born, with this and that, and they cannot allow that to be achieved
7 because we are close to achieving our strategic objectives." Can you
8 explain the context of those remarks, please.
9 A. Yes. Well, as I indicated, Dr. Karadzic seems to be satisfied
10 with the way the negotiations are heading. They haven't achieved
11 everything they want, but they're certainly moving in the right direction,
12 in his view. However, at this particular point in time, there is another
13 recrudescence, if you will, of the movement within the Bosnian Krajina to
14 proclaim their own republic up there, perhaps unite with the -- what is
15 now the Republic of Serbian Krajina in Croatia. This will really upset
16 the apple cart, in Dr. Karadzic's opinion. In fact, he -- I believe in
17 the course of this session, had to leave the session to take a telephone
18 call from Ambassador Cutilheiro, who had received a letter from
19 Mr. Izetbegovic complaining about this sort of thing, and so he's very
20 concerned that the people -- the leaders in Bosnian Krajina will upset the
21 apple cart, so to speak, and something which could lead to the
22 consequences he's setting out here.
23 Q. The next --
24 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one clarification. The text reads:
25 "With UN in place, with blacks and dark-skinned kids being born, with
1 this and that."
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Is that -- how should I understand this part of the
4 speech? Or at least, how do you think I should understand it?
5 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe the reference here is to a
6 phenomenon which was seen in Germany after World War I, when portions of
7 that country, the Rheinland in particular, were occupied by foreign
8 troops, in particular, French, British, and American troops, among whom
9 there were black troops, and a number of children were born out of unions
10 between those black soldiers and German women, who were not very popular
11 in Germany. They were referred to as the Rheinland bastards. So I
12 think --
13 JUDGE ORIE: That explains your view on it. Thank you.
14 Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. You've next highlighted another portion of the same -- or of the
17 remarks by Dr. Karadzic that appear on the next page. That's page 45 of
18 the English translation and pages 57 through 58 of the B/C/S original.
19 A. Yes. This is Dr. Karadzic continuing. Here he's continuing to
20 address the discipline problems as he sees them in Bosnian Krajina and
21 reminding the deputies that once the party has adopted a policy, it has to
22 be adhered to. We saw that at the beginning of this presentation within
23 the party statutes.
24 MR. TIEGER: For the record, the highlighted section
25 begins: "However, once the party has adopted a policy, anything else is
1 treason," and ends with the sentence: "I will signal to the people:
2 People, this man is a traitor."
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 MR. TIEGER:
5 Q. Turning to page 46 of the English translation and page 58 of the
6 B/C/S original.
7 A. I'm sorry, what page in the original?
8 Q. 58. We find highlighted in the English translation a passage
9 which begins: "I believe this is what we need to decide. This Assembly
10 is a supreme organ. And if it or any other assembly makes a wrong move,
11 this Assembly has the right to cancel those decisions."
12 A. Yes. This is Dr. Karadzic continuing on the theme of the problems
13 in Bosnian Krajina and pointing out that the Bosnian Serb Assembly should
14 impose a line on them.
15 Q. If we could turn next to page 57 of the English translation and
16 pages 73 through 74 of the B/C/S original. I have a note that the speaker
17 is Goran Zekic, but you need to check and confirm that for us,
18 Mr. Treanor.
19 A. Page 73 and 74?
20 Q. That's what my notes indicate. The highlighted section
21 begins: "They would accept it only on condition that we make further
22 concessions, but we have no reason to do so. We have no reason to
23 preserve any kind of a Bosnia and Herzegovina."
24 A. Yes, that's right. Yes. I now have the place, and that is in
25 fact Goran Zekic, who we have met before, a deputy and member of the Main
2 Q. And Mr. Zekic's remarks continue on to the next page of the
3 English translation, concluding with the sentence: "And that is our task,
4 because if our state, Yugoslavia, was destroyed, we shall destroy this
5 Bosnia with all the means available." And the transcript indicates
7 A. Yes. As you can see here, there's quite a bit of support among
8 the deputies for, not surprisingly, the line that had been taken all
9 along, remaining in Yugoslavia, and they're having trouble dealing with a
10 situation in which, as Dr. Karadzic is telling them, there may be an
11 agreement which will not include that.
12 Q. Moving to page 62 of the English translation, pages 74 through 75
13 of the B/C/S original.
14 A. Yes. Here we have Mr. Kupresanin speaking, who we've met many
15 times before, a -- one of the deputies and Main Board member and president
16 of the Assembly.
17 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Treanor. But if I can interrupt you. I moved
18 forward to the next item you had highlighted, overlooking Mr. Kupresanin,
19 so I --
20 A. I thought you said 74, 75. Sorry.
21 Q. If we could address the remarks by Mr. Kupresanin if you wish or
22 we can move on to the next highlighted obviously. It depends on you.
23 A. Which page are we on in the original, then, at this point?
24 Q. We're moving forward to a passage which is contained on both
25 pages 74 through 75 of the original. It begins on page 74 and continues
1 to 75. On the English, it is on page 62.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, are you not creating confusion? What I
3 see in the English version on page 62 is a speech which, according to
4 page 61, is delivered by Mr. Krajisnik, where on pages 74 and 75 of the
5 original B/C/S, from what I can decipher, it's a speech delivered by
6 Mr. Kupresanin. So I wonder whether you are not actually referring, if
7 you are talking about page 62 of the English translation, to the bottom of
8 page 77, continuing on page 78 and following. I'm afraid that you're
9 mixing up parts of the English translation with the originals in B/C/S.
10 MR. TIEGER: Well, that certainly appears to be the case, Your
11 Honour, and I apologise for that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So if you want to talk about page 62 in English, you
13 perhaps could guide the witness to page 77 and following of the B/C/S
15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
16 Q. If you can find it, based upon the assistance offered by the
17 Court, again, the highlighted section in English, to which I was
18 referring, begins with: "This attempt to impose Banja Luka, you can put
19 it forward and embellish it."
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger. I see that the
22 highlighted text in the original, the B/C/S original, appears just in the
23 middle of page 78.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes. And this is Mr. Mirko Mijatovic speaking, who
25 was elected originally as a member of the Council of Municipalities.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I think -- I'm sorry. Again I have to give an
2 opportunity to the interpreters to translate. What I see is the
3 highlighted portion in the middle of page 62 in English, seems to be
4 something that has been said by Mr. Krajisnik and which appears on page 78
5 of the original, to be more precise in the middle of the page. I take it
6 the paragraph starting with [B/C/S spoken] Banja Luka.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's right, Your Honour. A lot of confusion
8 in identifying these passages, unnecessarily, I'm sure. Yes, this is
9 Mr. Krajisnik who speaks after short remarks by Mr. Mijatovic.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. And Mr. Treanor, if I could ask you then, now that I believe we
12 have identified fully the passage, to comment upon it.
13 A. This is Mr. Krajisnik's commentary on the developments in Bosnian
14 Krajina and in Banja Luka. I could mention in this regard that a meeting
15 of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina had been scheduled for
16 the end of the month of February, and this was the forum in which it was
17 feared that certain decisions might be taken that would upset the
18 negotiations that the main Bosnian Serb leaders were engaged in.
19 Q. And I believe Mr. Krajisnik's remarks continue on to page 63 of
20 the English and page 79 of the B/C/S.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you've highlighted two portions of those, the first of which
23 begins: "Gentlemen, we want to remain in a single state," and continues
24 to the sentence -- or to the two sentences: "If we don't want to do this
25 by certain methods, let us put a stop to it. You know what our profession
1 has always been, to wage war."
2 A. Yes. This, I think, is along the lines of Mr. Krajisnik's earlier
3 comment, that there are two ways toward the final goal; one, negotiations,
4 which they're engaged in, and if you don't like the way those are going,
5 the only alternative is to break them off and go to war to achieve them.
6 Q. The second highlighted section on that page is found at the end of
7 his remarks and begins with the sentence: "We have the opportunity to
8 preserve the Serbian people in a single state."
9 A. Yes. Well, here we see Mr. Krajisnik expressing his belief that
10 this -- the negotiations in fact do present an opportunity to do that, as
11 he had put it earlier, they're just the first step in that direction, and
12 he's assuring the delegates that this is the way to go.
13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, the next document that we'll move to is
14 contained in binder 9, at tab 94.
15 Q. Mr. Treanor, tab 94 contains the record of the 28 February 1992
16 Deputies' Club. Before you direct your attention to selected portions of
17 that meeting, are there any preliminary comments you wish to make?
18 A. Yes, a couple of points. One is that there had been a further
19 negotiating session, under international auspices, in Sarajevo, on the
20 27th of February. At those negotiations, the international negotiators
21 consulted not only the representatives of the three principal parties in
22 BH, that is, the SDS, the SDA, and the HDZ, but there was also a
23 delegation composed of so-called independent deputies from the BH
24 Assembly. That delegation was headed by Dragan Kalinic, who was, in fact,
25 technically an independent member of the BH Assembly, but he was also a
1 member of the Assembly of the Serbian People and has spoken at some of the
2 sessions we've been considering.
3 In connection with that particular session of the negotiations,
4 the important point is that by this time, Mr. Izetbegovic had drawn back
5 on his previous acceptance of the Lisbon document of the 23rd of February.
6 As the Court will remember, that was -- that document was based on the
7 idea of cantonisation. Three different constituent units, that type of
8 set-up for BH, and this was an idea that the SDA had never favoured. And
9 for whatever reason, Mr. Izetbegovic was drawing back a bit on this, and
10 so the negotiations had to pick up at a different point from where they
11 left off in Lisbon.
12 The session we're about to consider is a session of the Deputies'
13 Club per se, and it immediately precedes another session of the Bosnian
14 Serb Assembly, which had been scheduled for that day. That session was --
15 the business of that session was basically to formally adopt the
16 constitution which had been drafted and some of the associated
17 legislation, setting up the organs of the Bosnian Serb Republic. The
18 business of that session was therefore fairly ceremonious.
19 During the preceding session of the Deputies' Club, which we're
20 about to consider, this is where the deputies got Dr. Karadzic's report on
21 the negotiations and where they had some more discussion about the draft
22 constitution. This is a much longer session than the following assembly
24 Q. Well, I think we can make some headway on the document, although
25 we have five minutes left before the break.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you'd prefer to have the break now, that
2 would be no problem, perhaps before we start this document, rather than
3 stop halfway. We would then adjourn until 25 minutes to 1.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 12.43 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I see that we have received a -- what it says now, a
7 translation, although it's fuller than the previous translation, which was
8 indicated as a full translation.
9 Mr. Tieger, could you please guide us again to where to start, to
10 what binder and to what number.
11 MR. TIEGER: I'm pleased to do that, Your Honour. It appears in
12 tab 86 of binder 8.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. Treanor, you were about to address the 28 February 1992
16 Deputies' Club. If we could move, then, to the first highlighted section,
17 which appears on page 4 of the English translation and page 5 of the B/C/S
18 original. That is a highlighted section at the bottom of page 4 which
19 begins: "Bosnia and Herzegovina will remain in Yugoslavia until we say it
20 has left Yugoslavia," and concludes: "If they want independence, then we
21 want independence too."
22 A. Yes. This is Dr. Krajisnik [sic] giving the deputies a report on
23 the state of the negotiations.
24 Q. Mr. Treanor, I believe you just said Dr. Krajisnik.
25 A. Oh, I'm sorry. Dr. Karadzic.
1 Q. The reference in that passage to the comment, as Mr. Krajisnik
2 says: "Muslims who used to be a religious sect and have recently been
3 given the status of a people," can you clarify that, please.
4 A. Yes. I think we saw a remark similar to this, perhaps yesterday.
5 I'm not sure who made it. This is a reference to the fact that the
6 Muslims within Yugoslavia were only recognised as a people, that is, on an
7 equal level with, say, the Serbs and the Croats and the Slovenes within
8 Yugoslavia, beginning in the 1960s.
9 Q. If we could move, then, to page 6 of the English translation and
10 page 7 of the B/C/S original. You have highlighted the fourth paragraph
11 of that page, as appears in the English, beginning: "Finally, the
12 argument we used with the foreigners is very strong."
13 A. Yes. This is Dr. Karadzic continuing his report, and again here
14 we can see a reference to the situation in India and Pakistan, as well as
15 in Cyprus and Lebanon.
16 Q. And that reference contains allusions to separation in a bloody
17 way and a huge resettlement of the population; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Moving to page 9 of the English translation and page 11 of the
20 B/C/S. There are two highlighted portions there. If you could identify
21 the speaker and indicate the significance, pertinence of those highlights?
22 A. Yes. Here we have Mr. Krajisnik speaking.
23 Q. The first highlight is the first full paragraph of page 9 in the
24 English, which begins: "They want it not because BH should be a state,
25 but they want not to create an Islamic state in Bosnia and Herzegovina."
1 A. Yes. He's voicing his perception that one reason why the
2 international community in particular wants BH to stay together is so that
3 it will not become an Islamic state, and therefore they want to keep the
4 Serbs and the Croats within the same state as the Muslims.
5 Q. The second highlighted section is found in the middle of the page,
6 and is two paragraphs, the first of which begins: "I have to disappoint
7 you, deputies from the BH Assembly, the BH that once was probably is no
8 more." And the second paragraph ends with a comment: "Then they looked
9 at possibilities for Herzegovina, where it is. There's nothing down
10 there, some green by the Neretva River, the part that is our strategic
12 A. Yes, here he's discussing the -- some of the nitty-gritty of the
13 discussions with maps and that sort of thing. The inference -- reference
14 to the Neretva at the bottom is interesting, in view of especially some
15 later documents, which we'll see, a reflection perhaps of the Serbian
16 desire, later expressed explicitly, to make the Neretva River one of the
17 boundaries of their entity.
18 Q. If we move to the next page, page 10 of the English, page 13 of
19 the B/C/S, is that a continuation of Mr. Krajisnik's remarks?
20 A. Yes, indeed.
21 Q. The highlighted section is the first full paragraph of that page,
22 beginning: "In the end, we told them that the meeting would be organised
23 between 5 and 10 March," and referring to the adoption of the constitution
24 of the Serbian Bosnia and Herzegovina.
25 A. Yes. This is an interesting passage, in which Mr. Krajisnik
1 relates the reaction of the international negotiators to the news that the
2 Bosnian Serbs were about to adopt their own constitution.
3 Q. Turning next to page 19 of the English translation and page 27 of
4 the B/C/S. In the middle of the page we can see highlighted on screen a
5 sentence: "I propose that our leaders, I mean Messrs. Karadzic and
6 Krajisnik, must go to Banja Luka, but everything must be very well
7 prepared for."
8 A. Yes. This is a remark by Mr. Zlatko Kelecevic, who was a deputy
9 originally elected to the Chamber of Municipalities in 1990 from the
10 Bosnian Krajina region, and he is again referring to the situation in
11 Bosnian Krajina and the fact that the meeting for the Assembly there is
12 now scheduled for the next day, the 29th of February. And it's his
13 desire, and that of some of the other deputies, that the -- at the very
14 least, the top SDS leaders go there to make sure that things go well.
15 There were even calls for all the deputies to go up there.
16 There was some fear that in fact non-SDS elements were sort of
17 invading the meetings of the Assembly up there and pushing things along,
18 according to their agenda rather than the SDS agenda, so that's one of the
19 concerns they had about what might happen at that meeting and the desire
20 for the presence of a strong SDS representation at the highest level.
21 Q. If we could turn to page 28 of the English translation. That is
22 page 41 of the B/C/S.
23 A. Yes. Here we have Mr. Marinko Kontic speaking, one of the
24 deputies originally elected to the Chamber of Municipalities.
25 Q. The highlighted portion begins: "However, I personally have to
1 criticise my great friend Vojo," and then continues: "The president of
2 the Assembly," that's Mr. Krajisnik, "has shown that he has to control the
3 Assembly. Mr. Kupresanin, likewise, has to control the situation in the
4 Krajina Assembly."
5 A. Yes. The reference here is to Mr. Kupresanin, who was the
6 president of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and
7 Mr. Kontic is expressing some dissatisfaction with the way things -- he
8 has handled things up there. He seems to think as president of the
9 Assembly he should have been able to keep matters under control the way
10 Mr. Krajisnik keeps things under control in the Assembly of the Serbian
12 Q. If we could turn next to page 34 of the English translation,
13 page 49 of the B/C/S. Two highlighted portions appear here.
14 A. Yes. This is Dr. Karadzic again referring to the situation within
15 the party and the need for party discipline.
16 Q. The highlight to which you've just referred and which is currently
17 shown on screen begins: "The Serbian Democratic Party is in power there."
18 And continues with the next paragraph which begins: "First we should make
19 it clear who in the Serbian Party does not comply with party discipline."
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The next highlighted portion is found below that, in the fourth
22 and third paragraphs respectively from the bottom, beginning with: "It's
23 not that easy to make a state. If it were possible to do it that way, ask
24 Krajisnik how many times we have discussed this. If it were possible to
25 do it that way."
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes. Here Dr. Karadzic is continuing to address the situation in
2 Bosnian Krajina and saying that things aren't quite as simple as some of
3 the people in Krajina might think they are.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the record, I take it that we now moved to
5 page 50 of the B/C/S original.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. Turning to page 36 of the English translation and page 52 of the
9 B/C/S. There are two highlights in the upper portion of the page, and
10 they represent three paragraphs, the first of which begins: "Imagine the
11 stupidity of it: The conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina is basically a
12 conflict among peoples," the second of which begins: "Muslims cannot live
13 with others. We must be clear on that," and the third, which
14 begins": "Yet they set up the Bosnian Krajina there and in two years'
15 time you will have problems again, to separate each and every village
16 there, because they will overwhelm you with their birth rate and their
17 tricks. We cannot allow that to happen."
18 A. Yes. Here we see the reference to the situation in India and
19 Pakistan again, and Dr. Karadzic refers to the idea of setting up some
20 sort of Krajina state, saying that if they do that, they've still got the
21 Muslims in there and that won't work in the long run.
22 Q. In the next page, page 37, you've also highlighted a section.
23 Those are three paragraphs in the bottom half of the page.
24 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour. I may not have given the B/C/S.
25 That is page 54.
1 A. Yes. And this is still Dr. Karadzic speaking.
2 Q. The first paragraph begins: "Please, until two or three months
3 ago, we were hoping to be able to play the Yugoslav card," and the second
4 begins: "We are preparing the constitutional framework to be able to have
5 immediately, and on the basis of the negotiations in Lisbon, to have a
6 National Guard, to have our own police," and the third of which
7 begins: "We have to play the interim moves."
8 A. Yes. This is a reflection of the fact that Dr. Karadzic perceives
9 that the original idea of simply remaining within Yugoslavia was not
10 immediately attainable for the Bosnian Serbs, and therefore, they are
11 taking some interim steps, but in that direction.
12 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour. Just one moment.
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 THE WITNESS: The reference at the end is again to the idea of
15 setting up a Bosnian Krajina state which -- within Yugoslavia, that this
16 is one of the areas in which -- among the leaders of which this idea of --
17 that we're not going to -- where dissatisfaction was created by the
18 prospect that they would not in fact immediately remain within Yugoslavia
19 or continue to remain in Yugoslavia uninterruptedly, but may have to wait
20 a while, and some people saw a solution for this, the proclamation of a
21 state in Krajina, and Dr. Karadzic is I think saying here: Well, if they
22 do that, then this will just get Serbia in trouble, and the main goal of
23 some of the international factors is to destroy Serbia.
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. The next highlighted section appears on the following page,
1 page 38 of the English, page 55 of the B/C/S.
2 A. Yes. This is the end of Dr. Karadzic's remarks.
3 Q. The first highlighted section begins at the top of the page, which
4 says: "What do we want? We want to realise our sovereign right, our
5 state-forming right here where we are, and whether we will one day create
6 ties with Serbia, when, and to what extent, that's not their business."
7 A. Yes. This is a reflection of the step-by-step approach that he is
8 now advocating. As I indicated earlier today, he was very anxious to get
9 the agreement on the partition, the transformation, the cantonisation,
10 whatever you want to call it, of BH in place, in a manner satisfactory to
11 them, before BH was recognised as an independent state, so that after that
12 happened, they would be able to follow their own line as they saw fit.
13 Q. And in addition, on that page, there are two paragraphs
14 highlighted, the first of which begins: "We are halfway there, no, not
15 halfway. We've achieved 90 per cent of the things," and the second of
16 which begins: "There will be other criteria, but the ethnic criterion
17 will be the basic criterion."
18 A. Yes. Well, here again he's emphasising to the deputies the great
19 progress that has been made toward their ultimate goal. The reference is
20 to the fact that one of the things that Mr. Izetbegovic objected to in the
21 previous document, the document of the 23rd, was that ethnic -- the ethnic
22 criterion seemed to be the only criterion for the establishment of the
23 constituent units. He wanted other criteria to be used as well, as
24 mentioned here, but Dr. Karadzic is assuring the deputies that the ethnic
25 criterion will remain the principal criterion.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you one question in this respect. The
2 English text says ethnic criterion. The original text seems to say
3 national or -- criteria of the nations. Is that correct? And are they
4 interchangeable for you?
5 THE WITNESS: Well, there are different words in B/C/S. There are
6 any number of words. The -- looking at this and seeing ethnic criterion,
7 I would have expected to see the B/C/S word that is akin to that word,
8 "etnicki." However, in the original, as Your Honour has pointed out, we
9 see "nacionalni." Another option would be -- well, there might be other
10 options, but I think as a matter of practicality, it's the same thing.
11 The reference is to the national communities that we've been referring to,
12 the three main national communities in BH: The Serbs, the Muslims, and
13 the Croats.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So you say for practical reasons in this context they
15 are interchangeable?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would say so.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. If we can turn now to page 43 of the English translation, which is
21 page 63 through 64 of the B/C/S.
22 A. Yes. Now, here we have Mr. Krajisnik speaking again.
23 Q. You have highlighted the -- on that page, the paragraph which
24 appears immediately above the last sentence appearing on the page, which
25 begins: "The recommendations are: We don't need a confederal Serbian
1 Bosnia and Herzegovina. This is unreasonable. We need only a single
2 monolithic Serbian state, with a single centre."
3 A. Yes. Well, here we see the reference to stages in the realisation
4 of their goals. At the beginning of the passage, we see reference to the
5 regionalisation idea within the Serbian entity, as has been mentioned.
6 The Serbian Republic, which has been proclaimed, is composed of the
7 territories of the previously existing Serbian autonomous districts. Some
8 people seem to think that maybe that's a little bit too much, that the
9 Serbian entity itself is, so to speak, a region of Bosnia and will be
10 given its own sovereignty, so what is the sense of having regions within
11 that entity.
12 Q. And the final highlighted selection of this meeting is found on
13 page 44 of the English translation and page 65 of the B/C/S. Is this
14 still Mr. Krajisnik speaking?
15 A. Yes. This is Mr. Krajisnik getting toward the end of his remarks.
16 MR. TIEGER: For the record, the highlighted portion would be the
17 first -- would be the last three paragraphs, I believe, the first of which
18 begins: "As for what Mr. Koljevic has said, I apologise. I never make
19 long speeches," and then goes on into a list: "We are telling you
20 straight what it is that they want. They want the armed forces of Bosnia
21 and Herzegovina. They want the currency. They want a unitary Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina. They want an Islamic state." And the last paragraph
23 contains -- begins with a reference: "But that will not succeed. We are
24 a force to be reckoned with. We will not agree to that." And then
25 mentions the line: "We will come here and explain. We will say: Dear
1 gentlemen, get your woolen socks ready. We will go and defend ourselves."
2 And then has two concluding sentences -- three concluding sentences,
3 excuse me.
4 A. Yes. Here we see an exhortation to the deputies to have
5 confidence in their negotiators in their delegation. He enumerates the
6 types of demands that they are being faced with and assures them that they
7 will never give in to these.
8 Q. And you say the types of -- excuse me. You mentioned the types of
9 demands they are faced with. Are these demands actually made at the
10 negotiations or a projection of the perceived threat faced by a unitary
11 or --
12 A. Well, I think this is his perception of what the real desires of
13 the SDA are. And he, at the end, indicates that if they can't come to an
14 agreement, they will inform the Assembly of that and tell them that it is
15 necessary to get ready for war in that case.
16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the next selected document is found on
17 tab 95, and that is a record of the 9th Session of the Assembly of the
18 Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, held on 28 January 1992, in
20 JUDGE ORIE: I heard you say 28th of January, Mr. Tieger, and
21 that's what the transcript says.
22 MR. TIEGER: No.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The document, however, indicates that it would have
24 been the 28th of February.
25 MR. TIEGER: Quite right, and I simply made an error in speaking
1 on that. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. Mr. Treanor, if I recall correctly, I think you indicated earlier
5 that this was in large measure a ceremonial or ceremonious occasion. If
6 you could just give us a quick backdrop and we'll move into the document
8 A. Yes, that's right. This is a session that followed the meeting of
9 the Deputies' Club. This session began at five minutes after 4.00 in the
10 afternoon and concluded -- that is, at 1605, and concluded at 1955 hours,
11 in the course of which the Assembly formally adopted a constitution for
12 the Serbian Republic, a constitutional law to implement that constitution,
13 and some associated legislation to give form to the new state organs,
14 including a law on the government, a law on defence, and a law on internal
15 affairs. The larger package of legislation that was being considered over
16 the previous month was not entirely ready at this point, so they did not
17 adopt all the legislation they had projected, but did adopt these
18 particular basic documents.
19 Q. And I note there are only a few highlighted portions of this
20 particular section. If we could move to the first, which is found on
21 page 6 of the English translation. Mr. Treanor, I'll have to rely upon
22 you, once you find that, to indicate for the record where the B/C/S --
23 A. Well, in fact, I don't have anything marked in this particular
25 Q. Well, the portion marked is, as we can see from the screen, a
1 brief portion of the comments by Mr. Maksimovic.
2 A. Yes. Mr. Maksimovic is, of course, the chairman -- president of
3 the Deputies' Club. He would have been presiding at the previous meeting.
4 At this meeting, Mr. Krajisnik is presiding, and he -- Mr. Maksimovic is
5 here expressing his emotions at the adoption of the constitution.
6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, because that's not as precise a
7 reference as a page number, I want to ensure that Mr. Krajisnik has found
8 that section.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And apart from that, you guided us to page 6 of
10 the English version, indicating -- and that's what I see on the screen as
11 well --
12 THE WITNESS: I think it's page 8 of the original.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Page 8. Yes, but I see -- let me just check. We are
14 in tab 95, and you're guiding us to page 6 of the English version, which
15 seems ...
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: On our page 6, we do not see the name of Professor
18 Vojislav Maksimovic underlined appear.
19 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I might indicate that it appears to be
20 on actually page 12.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's a -- well, on page 12, Mr. Maksimovic is not
22 underlined as well. But on page 11, as a matter of fact, it is. And then
23 the highlight would then be on our page 12, and we see again that we have
24 different documents, Mr. Tieger, because the part starting with: "The joy
25 I feel cannot be diminished," appears in our hard copy on page 12, the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 third line from the top. So since we've found now the English version,
2 perhaps we could try to ... It seems to me that -- yes, it's page 8 of the
3 B/C/S original. Are we all on track? Let's then proceed.
4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour, and I apologise for that
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
8 Q. Mr. Treanor, I believe you've already addressed that comment, but
9 I can only say for the record that -- which would be a bit confusing in
10 this circumstance, and I will ensure that that discrepancy is reconciled
11 immediately, Your Honour, that the portion which is highlighted is the
12 fourth paragraph of Mr. Maksimovic's comments on whatever page number. It
13 begins -- and I'm hesitant to refer to anything other than that the page
14 number the Court has in front of it, but we see a different page number on
15 the screen. We will reconcile that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We have different ERN numbers, as a matter of fact,
17 on the top of our pages. So these are two different documents, the one
18 being more densely printed than the one we have. But we've found our --
19 the highlighted spot.
20 MR. TIEGER: Well, Your Honour, as I indicated a moment ago when I
21 began to ask Mr. Treanor the question, there are only very few highlights
22 in this session. I don't think it will affect our progress if we move
23 immediately to the document found at tab 96. I can ask Mr. Treanor for --
24 obviously, for his view on that, but he's explained the nature of the
25 session, in particular, the decisions that were reached, and I believe we
1 can move forward to some of the decisions that were made and the documents
2 they reflect.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I leave it up to you. The only important thing
4 for the Chamber at this moment is that the document you're referring to
5 has the same content as the one we have in front of us, and I would very
6 much appreciate if we could receive a copy with the same ERN numbers or
7 one of your copies. But if it's the same text, then of course I would not
8 mind if you proceed at this moment, but it should be verified and it
9 should be confirmed to the Chamber that the text is the same and then our
10 text should be replaced by the ones with the numbers on the top of the
11 pages as we see them on the screen.
12 Yes. Please proceed.
13 MR. TIEGER: I will make sure that that replacement takes place
14 today, Your Honour. I think we can move on to tab 96, which is the
15 decision on proclaiming the constitution.
16 I'm sorry. Before we do that, I think it would be useful,
17 however, to finish, for the record, the citation to that portion of the
18 comments by Mr. Maksimovic that we've already referred to, which
19 continues: "By referring to the irreconcilable opponents in Bosnia and
20 Herzegovina and in Europe, which we have long seen and continue to see
21 today manifested daily in a very extreme form."
22 And because the next selection appears only two sentences after
23 that, I don't think the record would be unduly confused by noting that it
24 is two sentences -- or it consists of two sentences which read: "This is
25 the realisation of yet another significant step on the road towards
1 realisation of our final political and national goals, and that is the
2 creation of a state community of all Serbian lands."
3 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask for confirmation. The text would exactly
4 be the same. I now already come to the conclusion that the text is not
5 the same, because it seems that although the original text may be the
6 same, the translations are not the same. May I ask your attention for the
7 last sentence of the first highlighted portion, where it reads: "Which we
8 have long seen and continue to see today manifested daily in a very
9 extreme form," whereas in the hard copy we have got in front of us, it
10 reads: "It's still present in a very extreme form and is being manifested
11 every day." I'm not saying that the content is not approximately the
12 same, but certainly the text is not the same. So perhaps we should skip
13 this part as well, having -- working from two different documents, and
14 move on to 96, and you'll have an opportunity, once these texts are
15 replaced, to ask questions on the basis of a text the same for Mr. Treanor
16 as for the Chamber.
17 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mr. Treanor, turning to tab 96, we see the decision on proclaiming
19 the constitution of the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
20 A. Yes. This is, as published in the Official Gazette of the Serbian
21 People in Bosnia and Herzegovina, published on the 16th of March.
22 Q. On page 2 of that document, you've indicated some highlights, to
23 which you wish to draw our attention. Those consist of Articles 1, 2, 3,
24 and 5.
25 A. Yes. These are some general articles that I'd like to call the
1 Court's attention to before we consider the individual organs of power
2 that were set up by the constitution and the related legislation. The
3 Court will note that in Article 1, the republic is defined as the state of
4 the Serbian people and of the citizens living in it. The word "all" is
5 not in the original. This is in contrast to the similar provision in the
6 BH constitution that I mentioned at the beginning of my presentation,
7 which mentioned three peoples. So this state, as the article defines it,
8 is a state of only one people. The Bosnian Serb leaders, of course, had
9 premised much of their position and action on the fact that within BH,
10 they were one of the constituent peoples, and therefore had certain rights
11 as a people. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that under this article,
12 only one people is being given rights as a people.
13 Article 2 defines the territories -- the territory of the republic
14 in terms which we've seen already, rather imprecise. It refers to the
15 autonomous regions and municipalities. It then goes on to enumerate,
16 including regions in which genocide was committed against the Serbian
17 people in World War II. So there is no precise definition of boundaries.
18 And then Article 3, the statement that the republic is part of the
19 Federal State of Yugoslavia. There is no reference here, for instance, to
20 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
21 And now Article 5 encompasses some of the basic guarantees, basic
22 principles of the constitutional order, including the guarantee and
23 protection of human freedoms and rights and the protection of rights of
24 ethnic groups and other minorities. And there is a reference just above
25 that to regional autonomy and local self-government. This constitution
1 does, in fact, make provision for the existence of regions within the
3 Q. The 28 February 1992 constitutional law for implementing the
4 constitution is the next document you've selected. That's found at
5 tab 99.
6 A. Yes. I think we're getting into a consideration now of the main
7 organs of power which were established by the constitution. Those organs,
8 the ones that we will be considering in particular, are the National
9 Assembly, the government, and the office of the presidents of the
10 Republic. The powers and other related issues -- other issues related to
11 those organs are specified in the constitution; however, at the same time,
12 a constitutional law was adopted which provided for provisional measures
13 that would be applied until the provisions of the constitution per se
14 could be fully implemented. That constitution, for instance, would have
15 required -- to implement that constitution would have required the holding
16 of elections and that type of thing. So we have transitional provisions
17 in the constitutional law, and Article 3 relates to the National Assembly.
18 It provides for a provisional National Assembly, if you will, until it's
19 possible to hold elections. The definition of a National Assembly is
20 basically the same as the definition of the Assembly of the Serbian
21 People, that is, the deputies of Serbian nationality who were elected in
22 1990 to the Assembly of BH.
23 Q. If we could return to tab 96, the decision on proclaiming the
24 constitution, and begin discussing the various organs that were set up and
25 the competencies, authorities, and roles assigned to them.
1 A. Right. What we have here now, this is the constitution per se.
2 The decision on proclaiming the constitution is immediately followed by
3 the text of the constitution which was being proclaimed.
4 MR. TIEGER: Now, Your Honour, the portion of the document that
5 you now see on screen is found at page 11, and I'll attempt to guide the
6 Court through those pages successively. And page 22 of the B/C/S.
7 Q. Mr. Treanor, as we move through the organs, although the Court may
8 guide you, seek particular information about particular sections, I think
9 I would ask you to move through those as quickly as possible, identifying
10 the portions of the constitution where they appear, the general terms of
11 those articles and provisions.
12 A. Yes, of course.
13 Q. Turning first to Article 69, again found at page 11 of the
15 A. This is the article that sets out the basic organs, essential
16 organs of power within the republic.
17 Q. Article 70, the next highlighted section, is found at page 12 of
18 the English.
19 A. This is a basic article enumerating the responsibilities of the
20 National Assembly within the republic.
21 Q. And Article 74, found on that same page.
22 A. This makes some mention of the responsibility, powers and
23 responsibility of the president of the Assembly.
24 Q. If we could turn next to Article 87, I believe. That's found at
25 page 14, Your Honours.
1 A. This is a simple article dealing with a facet of the office of the
2 presidents of the republic.
3 Q. And does it indicate further who would assume his term of office
4 should he be unable to fulfil his duties?
5 A. Yes. Here we see provision for the president of the National
6 Assembly to act for the president in certain circumstances.
7 Q. I believe the next article you've highlighted is Article 90, found
8 at page 15.
9 A. Yes. Here we see the basic article enumerating the
10 responsibilities of the government.
11 Q. Article 94 on that same page.
12 A. Article specifying that the government is responsible to the
13 Assembly and how no-confidence can be voted in the government.
14 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: A few pages are missing on one of the copies. For
17 the time being, we'll share our copy, and if you could please provide
18 page 15 and 16 again for Judge El Mahdi.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. Mr. Treanor, anything further about Article 99 before we move on
21 to the next highlighted article, which is 121?
22 A. I believe we're considering Article 94.
23 Q. I said 1994, yes.
24 A. I think we can move on.
25 Q. Article 121 is found on page 19 of the English.
1 A. Here we have provision for a constitutional court with the
2 National Assembly electing its presidents and also its members.
3 Q. Article 135, the next highlighted article, appears at page 21.
4 A. This again is another function of the National Assembly, which is
5 to elect judges and public prosecutors.
6 Q. And Article 140 is found at page 22.
7 A. And this encompasses the power of the National Assembly to amend
8 the constitution.
9 Q. If we could turn next to the Rules of Procedure of the Assembly,
10 found at tab 97.
11 A. Yes. Now, these Rules of Procedure were in fact adopted by the
12 Assembly at its session of the 15th of February, but they complement in a
13 fashion the provisions of the constitution that we just saw.
14 Q. I believe the first article you've highlighted is Article 26,
15 found at page 3.
16 A. Yes. This article enumerates the responsibilities of the
17 president of the Assembly.
18 Q. And of course Article 26 continues on to the next page of the
19 English translation.
20 Article 48, the next article, which you've highlighted, is found
21 at page 5.
22 A. Yes. This article empowers the president of the Assembly to
23 have -- well, what are referred here to as the working bodies, that is,
24 the various commissions of the Assembly, to discuss particular issues and
25 submit a report to the Assembly.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. And I believe Article 55, found at page -- also found at page 6,
2 addresses committees of the Assembly.
3 A. Yes. These are -- this is a list of the committees or commissions
4 of the Assembly.
5 Q. On page 10, Article 82 addresses the power to convene the sessions
6 of the Assembly.
7 A. Yes. This section of the Rules of Procedure govern the work at
8 sessions, how sessions are to be carried out. And it mentions the right
9 of the president to the Assembly to convene a session on his own
11 Q. And Articles 89 and 90, found at page 11, appear to address the
12 agenda for the Assembly.
13 A. Yes. These articles deal with the responsibility of the
14 presidents of the Assembly in regard to the agenda, that is, the president
15 of the Assembly proposes an agenda at the beginning of the session. Other
16 deputies have a right to add items to that, but the agenda as a whole must
17 then be approved by the entire Assembly.
18 Q. And I think we can take advantage of the one remaining minute by
19 moving to tab 98.
20 JUDGE ORIE: If you think we could deal with it in one minute,
21 Mr. Tieger, then please proceed.
22 MR. TIEGER: Three articles, Your Honour, Articles 90, 94, and 97,
23 found at page 15, initially.
24 Q. Article 90 is depicted on the screen in front of you, Mr. Treanor.
25 A. Yes. This is the article which lists the responsibilities of the
1 government. I think we can skip Article 94, since we've seen it already.
2 It's about the government being responsible to the National Assembly.
3 Q. And Article 97?
4 A. Article 97 addresses the responsibility of the ministries and
5 other administrative agencies to implement the laws enacted by the
6 National Assembly.
7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I have no intention of moving on to
8 another document, but perhaps I can assist the Court if there's confusion
9 about the location of this particular document.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm a bit surprised that it seems that we see
11 similar articles starting on page 15, and where we -- it's not entirely
12 clear to me what kind of regulations these are.
13 THE WITNESS: These are articles from the constitution.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And are they any different from what we've seen
15 before from the --
16 THE WITNESS: With the exception of Article 94, which we saw
17 before in relation to the National Assembly, and we didn't dwell on here,
18 these are new articles. They relate to the government rather than the
19 Assembly. These articles are parallel, to a certain extent. They
20 enumerate the powers of the organ under consideration.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but my question, more precisely, is that what we
22 saw under tab 96, page 15, Article 90, is that any different from what we
23 see on this page 15 under tab 98?
24 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour. Tabs 90 -- tab 98 was added for
25 convenience, so the Court would not necessarily have to return to 96. I'm
1 sorry it generated confusion.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it's part of what we find under 96. Yes.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. TIEGER: Unless I miscalculate, Your Honour, I think we're
5 over our time.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are. And you've dealt with 98?
7 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 Mr. Treanor, I would like to ask one thing to the parties, but not
10 necessarily in your presence. May I instruct you to -- not to speak with
11 anyone about your testimony, and we'd like to see you back tomorrow
12 morning at 9.00 o'clock in this same courtroom.
13 THE WITNESS: Certainly, Your Honour.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, what I'd like to ask you is whether we
16 are still on track as far as Mr. Treanor is concerned. As you know, we
17 reserved I think 18 days to start, and then have a -- then have a break of
18 a couple of weeks. I note that we -- you used for the examination of
19 chief, until now, a little bit over 15 hours, almost 15 and a half hours.
20 Mr. Treanor was scheduled for 25 hours. This week we have two days ahead
21 of us. That would -- well, let's say approximately, effectively, eight
22 hours. That would bring us to 23 and a half hours. We lost one day, as
23 you may have noticed, somewhere in the beginning. That also means that if
24 we would have not lost a day, that we would have, without any problem,
25 reached 25 hours.
1 My question to you is: Is it your expectation that we could
2 finish the examination-in-chief of Mr. Treanor by next Friday? If not,
3 perhaps it would be a good idea not to leave one or two hours just hanging
4 for a couple of weeks and see how we could solve that problem.
5 But may I first ask you whether you expect it, in the pace we are
6 moving forwards now, whether you could finish the examination-in-chief of
7 Mr. Treanor by next Friday.
8 MR. TIEGER: That was certainly my intention, Your Honour, and, as
9 you may have noted -- well, I rechecked the number of hours expended at
10 the beginning of this day, and would have answered that question much more
11 confidently at the beginning. It seems that different portions of the
12 material covered move at different paces. It is my -- certainly my
13 intention to do so. I will endeavour to do that, and I'm looking at the
14 material constantly to see if it can be presented to the Court in a more
15 expeditious manner. What I can tell the Court, as I mentioned before, is
16 that we're certainly roughly on schedule, and the period I was focussed on
17 was Friday, as the Court indicated. I also wanted to make every effort to
18 conclude on that date. But some of the material, as the Court may have
19 noted, simply takes more time to address, even when we're moving through
20 it as quickly as we possibly can.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, Ms. Loukas, you'd like to respond, or --
22 because the Chamber has -- perhaps I'll give first an opportunity to you
23 to respond, and it seems that Madam Registrar would also like to have some
24 of my attention. Please proceed.
25 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. I just wanted to
1 indicate that should we fail to complete the evidence on Friday, from the
2 Defence perspective, we're happy to sit on Monday, if that can fit in with
3 the commitments of the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution, if it were not
4 possible to complete the relevant evidence by Friday.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Loukas. I'm now waiting for the
6 message. Yes.
7 It's more or less what I expected. The Registrar always helps us
8 out. Of course, if spending the weekend in The Hague unnecessarily, of
9 course, might not be very attractive. There would be a possibility to
10 continue on Friday, also in the afternoon. So we have some additional
11 time on Friday, and this would certainly bring us to the 25 hours, as
12 scheduled. And we'll then have spent 17 1/2 days rather than 18 days.
13 The Chamber would prefer to finish the examination-in-chief of Mr. Treanor
14 before the relatively long pause, since it's not attractive to leave one
15 or two hours of examination in the air for so many weeks.
16 So the parties should prepare that if we have not finished by
17 Friday, a quarter to 2.00, that we might try to find solutions, preferably
18 on Friday, if not possible, then on Monday as well, to finish the
19 examination-in-chief of Mr. Treanor, and perhaps not to start with the
21 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Well, in relation to the Friday afternoon
22 option, Your Honour, that's perfectly acceptable, of course, to the
23 Defence. But as for Your Honour's comments about the attractiveness of
24 spending the weekend in The Hague, I must say, the Defence pretty much
25 spends every weekend in The Hague.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm aware of it. I'm doing it already for 25
3 Mr. Tieger, any further comments?
4 MR. TIEGER: Only this, Your Honour: We have attempted to
5 compress these large volumes of material into the projected and predicted
6 time. I would only say this: If we are somewhat over, I think it would
7 represent only a small miscalculation on a very difficult projection to
8 make originally, and we would be asking leave of the Court for permission
9 to extend it somewhat if it was necessary to do so, at least to present
10 the Court with the valuable additional information which might be
11 contained in that portion of the presentation.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I see that all parties are quite willing to cooperate
13 in such a way that we could finish the examination-in-chief. And let's
14 try to do it within the time limits. If that's completely impossible,
15 let's see how we solve it, but we solve it before the break.
16 We'll then adjourn, with the apologies for the interpreters and
17 the technicians that we took -- we have stolen ten minutes of their time.
18 We adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00 o'clock, same courtroom.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.54 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 26th day of
21 February 2004, at 9.00 a.m.