1 Tuesday, 25 May 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone in the courtroom and those
6 just outside the courtroom assisting us.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Momcilo Krajisnik.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Before I ask the usher to escort the witness into the courtroom
12 I'd like to inform the parties about the position the Chamber takes in
13 respect of 92 bis D or 89 (F) in respect of the production of transcripts
14 in evidence. The Trial Chamber has carefully studied again the position
15 of the Appeals Chamber in the Milosevic case where it became clear that
16 not all categories of written evidence would fall within the scope of
17 92 bis (A).
18 In respect of the transcripts we would use here, the Chamber
19 considers that -- first of all, that they are not falling outside the
20 scope of 92 bis irrespective of the subject matter. That means that this
21 transcript and the testimony is not about the acts and the conduct of the
22 accused as it should be understood in the case law of this Tribunal.
23 Therefore, for that reason it would fall within the scope of 92 bis.
24 Transcripts are different from written statements to the extent
25 that, first of all, the correct writing down of the words of a witness is
1 not in the hands of an investigator but is the responsibility of the
2 registry. Therefore, an affirmation of the correct text on paper compared
3 to what the witness has said is not an issue.
4 As far as the -- as far as the correctness, that means whether the
5 statement or what has been put on paper is accurate, that means whether it
6 reflects the truth to the best of the knowledge of the witness, is not in
7 a similar way an issue for transcripts as it is for statements since
8 unlike with statements, the witness has given a solemn declaration that he
9 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So in
10 that respect, there's no need for -- to attest the accuracy. There's no
11 need to confirm that the words are written down in a correct way. So all
12 the formalities we find for 92 bis (A) are, well, not issues as far as
13 transcripts are concerned. As far as the limits are concerned, in this
14 specific case we could say that the transcript, the testimony, is not
15 about the acts and the conduct of the accused, so therefore there is no
16 reason not to apply 92 bis (D).
17 I add to that that this does not mean that transcripts always are
18 covered by Rule 92 bis (D). For example, one could imagine that a witness
19 should be confronted with an inconsistent statement when cross-examined
20 and that a transcript of an earlier testimony could play a role there even
21 if that testimony would be related to the acts and the conduct of the
22 accused, which would exclude that transcript from 92 bis (D) but might
23 bring it within the scope of 89(F). But since that is not the case here,
24 there is no reason for the Chamber not to accept transcripts of the
25 cross-examination of the witness in another case under Rule 92 bis (D).
1 This is perhaps a bit of a long explanation for why the Chamber
2 thinks that in this case the application of 92 bis (D) should be preferred
3 above the more general rule of 89(F).
4 Mr. Hannis.
5 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, two matters, one I'd like to address
6 concerning that and a procedural matter. If the Defence wishes to adapt
7 that procedure with this witness or future witnesses, we would ask that we
8 be given two weeks' notice of that so we could have a week to respond if
9 there were any objections or something we wanted to raise with regard to
10 what's proposed, because if all that's being offered is the
11 cross-examination, Your Honour, sometimes it -- we feel it may be
12 necessary for the Court also to receive either some portion of the direct
13 testimony that preceded that or the redirect that followed.
14 In this case, Your Honour, I had a chance to look at the
15 cross-examination of Mr. Karabeg from the Brdjanin trial, and we would
16 propose that Your Honours consider the redirect examination that
17 Mr. Cayley conducted of that witness along with the cross-examination,
18 and I have copies of that that I can provide to the Court.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas.
20 MS. LOUKAS: Well, just in relation to the re-examination
21 question, Your Honour, I think insofar as the re-examination arises from
22 the cross-examination, I have no objection to that course.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because it could have been done live as well.
24 So if it's -- yes.
25 Is it limited to that, Mr. Hannis?
1 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. It was brief.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I think we could ask Mr. Usher to escort
3 the witness into the courtroom.
4 Of course we're trying to find -- oh, yes, no. You had a second
6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. The second matter relates -- before the
7 witness comes in, Your Honour, there was an issue yesterday regarding one
8 of the exhibits for our first witness regarding the translation, and
9 Mr. Gaynor is ready to address that. I think we've discovered what
10 happened there.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Gaynor, perhaps if you'd briefly explain.
12 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Your Honour, very briefly.
13 The exhibit in question is P95. It was a record by the Cantonal
14 Court in Bihac about an exhumation which took place on the 28th of
15 October, 1998. The top right-hand corner of the English translation of
16 the B/C/S original, Your Honour, drew our attention to the fact that it
17 says handwritten: 9.480. On inspection of the original, it appears that
18 that annotation does not exist. We suspect that that number refers to an
19 exhibit number from the Brdjanin trial. This exhibit was also an exhibit
20 in the Brdjanin trial. Therefore, we propose that Exhibit P95.1, which is
21 the English translation of this document, be replaced with this
22 translation which is the same translation without the annotation.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any comments, Ms. Loukas?
24 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. There is no objection to that course, Your
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then the translation is then tendered and is also
2 then admitted in the new version. It is exactly the same document but
3 without the translation of handwriting on the top of it, yes.
4 Then, if there are no further issues, Mr. Usher could you please
5 escort Mr. Karabeg into the courtroom.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Karabeg.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind you you're still bound by the solemn
10 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony yesterday.
11 WITNESS: MIRZET KARABEG [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE ORIE: The examination-in-chief will now continue.
14 Mr. Hannis, please proceed.
15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Examined by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Karabeg.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. When we left off yesterday, I think we had just talked about the
20 situation in Sanski Most municipality in early April of 1992, and that was
21 a time in which you told us that the SDS and the municipal assembly was
22 trying to get on the agenda the issue of Sanski Most becoming a Serbian
23 municipality and joining the Autonomous Region of the Krajina, and you
24 told us about a conversation you had with Mr. Vrkes about that.
25 I want to ask you, did that issue ever get officially voted on in
1 the Assembly in Sanski Most, the issue of joining ARK?
2 A. No. However, there was a vote on whether to put it on the agenda.
3 Q. And what was the outcome of that vote?
4 A. The proposal was not accepted, the proposal to be -- place the
5 issue on the agenda, because the SDS members wanted to break at that
6 point. And then it was decided that the commission should be set up
7 consisting of various representatives of the political parties. They
8 tried to resolve the issue, to have the Assembly continue with its work.
9 However, this never happened, and it was the last session of the municipal
10 assembly of Sanski Most.
11 Q. Do you recall what date that last session was?
12 A. I don't know, but I think that it must have been either on the 6th
13 or the 7th of April, 1992.
14 Q. I would like to have you shown an exhibit. The next item, I
15 believe, if we can have a number. It will be for a document dated
16 25 March 1992.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P103.
18 MR. HANNIS:
19 Q. And actually, Mr. Karabeg, there are two documents together here.
20 One is dated 25 March 1992, described as Reasons, and one dated 3 April
21 1992, called a Decision. And I believe you've seen this document before
22 when you testified previously here at the Tribunal. Do you recall having
23 seen that document?
24 A. Let me see. Yes, I do recall.
25 Q. Were you aware of that document in 1992 at the time it appears to
1 have been written?
2 A. No, I was not. I saw this document for the first time two years
3 ago when I attended a trial here.
4 Q. And in that document, the first one dated the 25th of March, it
5 appears that the Serbian authorities have decided that all Serbian
6 territories in Sanski Most municipality will be part of the Serbian
7 Republic of Bosnia; correct?
8 A. Yes. Yes, that is correct.
9 Q. And the document dated the 3rd of April is a decision that the
10 Serbian municipality of Sanski Most will be part of the Autonomous Region
11 of the Krajina?
12 A. Yes. You see, the way they did it was illegal. I mean, they were
13 doing this illegally, but we had this legal Assembly that took place on
14 the 6th of April.
15 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, the witness has been asked a simple
16 question, that is whether that document is or is not as indicated, and the
17 answer is yes, and the witness has now gone on to answer a further
18 question that was not asked.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, if a witness thinks that there's
20 something important to be added, we usually let him go if it does not go
21 too far away from the original question. Of course, he could not start
22 telling a story about a totally different matter. I would first leave it
23 to Mr. Hannis whether further elaboration of the witness fits into what he
24 would like to ask the witness. If so, he doesn't have to interrupt the
25 witness and ask him the question he is already answering. So therefore, I
1 would leave it, first of all, to counsel who is at that moment examining
2 the witness, but I expect counsel to stop a witness if he just explores
3 areas which are not relevant at that moment. And of course, some control
4 over what then happens should be exercised. This would be valid for both
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. LOUKAS: As Your Honour pleases.
8 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Karabeg, I think you told us you were not aware of this at the
10 time it occurred even though you were president of the Executive Board in
11 Sanski Most; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you started to say before that this decision, in your opinion,
14 was illegal. Could you explain to us why you have that opinion?
15 A. Yes. Let me address the Court at this point. I wish to say that
16 it is very difficult and almost impossible for me to answer with a simple
17 yes or no. There are always things that I feel need to be added, and I
18 think this is the reason why I have been called upon to testify before the
19 Tribunal, so that the truth can be established.
20 Now, when I said that I had seen the document for the first time
21 two years ago when I attended a trial here, the trial which was conducted
22 against Mr. Brdjanin and Mr. Talic, they did this illegally. What they
23 tried to do legally was to attempt to place on the agenda of the Assembly
24 the issue itself, and that was that. However, they were not successful in
25 that. They wanted then a commission to be established. A commission was
1 indeed established, but it could not reach a good solution because we
2 non-Serbs, at that point, requested that the issue of reunification of
3 Sanski Most with Bihac be placed on the agenda, and neither of the
4 proposals were accepted. So the Assembly ceased to function. So legal
5 organs were not respected.
6 Q. Now, after this last session of the Sanski Most Assembly, in your
7 written statement, I think in paragraphs 15 and 16, you talk about the
8 split of the police force in Sanski Most. Can you tell us how that came
10 A. After the Assembly stopped functioning, the representative of the
11 SDS went about establishing municipal organs of the Sanski Most
12 municipality in their own way. First they tried to do it with the police.
13 Vlado Vrkes, the president of the local branch of the SDS, talked to the
14 people from the police and said that he wanted a meeting to be convened, a
15 meeting which would be attended by all of the police officers or members
16 of the Milicija, as we called them at the time. All police officers from
17 the Sanski Most municipalities, those who were attached to the Sanski Most
18 police, representatives of the parties as well. And it was said at that
19 meeting that all police officers should wear Serb insignia and that a
20 Serbian flag bearing four Ss should be hoisted at the building of the
21 police, and that all police officers should sign an oath of loyalty to the
22 Serbian police.
23 Now, at that meeting, none of the Serbs accepted to sign --
24 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Karabeg. I see something in your answer just now I
25 wanted to ask you about before I forgot. You said that all police
1 officers should sign an oath of loyalty to the Serbian police? Is that
3 A. Yes. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, I'm confused. But I thought in your written
5 statement --
6 A. That's what they were asked to do.
7 MS. LOUKAS: Mr. Hannis is cross-examining his own witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Let me first have a look at the written statement
9 before I --
10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I would direct you to paragraph 15 in
11 the English version. The fourth line talks about the loyalty pledge.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You said 15 or --
13 MR. HANNIS: Paragraph 15, the bottom of the page.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see it.
15 May I ask you one question? The declaration of loyalty, could you
16 expand on that a tiny little bit more? How was that done? What was the
17 text? Do you know any more specifics about it?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the actual text, but I
19 can only assume what it was. They said that a loyalty oath or declaration
20 should be signed, which means that you sign to respect the regulations of
21 the Sanski Most municipality, that you will respect rules and regulations
22 when it comes to the police at the level of the Autonomous Region, which
23 means all the changes illegally. The legal organs of the Republic of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina were to -- expected to sign loyalty to those who wished
25 to topple all this and to work illegally, unlawfully.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Perhaps you could move to your
2 next subject or -- I think the matter has been clarified.
3 MR. HANNIS: I will, Your Honour. Thank you.
4 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, I'm sorry I interrupted you I think before you
5 finished your answer about that meeting. Was there something additional
6 you wanted to tell us?
7 A. Well, what I wanted to tell you was this: On that day, none of
8 the policemen or militiamen as they were called who worked, who were on
9 duty, stated that they wished to sign this declaration of loyalty and that
10 they wished to work under the Republika Srpska, that they did not wish to
11 wear the four-S insignia except for one young Croat who said he'd have to
12 accept to sign that declaration of loyalty because he lived in Banja Luka
13 and that he was sorry that he had to do that, but he had to accept this.
14 So as this -- nobody accepted this pledge of loyalty, then Vlado
15 Vrkes gave a deadline of, I think, 48 hours to think about this, the
16 acceptance of this declaration of loyalty. The 48 hours expired. Nobody
17 accepted to sign the declaration of loyalty, and so the legal policemen
18 were not allowed access to the police station. They were sent away and
19 dismissed from their jobs by these illegal people.
20 Q. Mr. Karabeg, in paragraph 16 of your written statement, you
21 indicated that Mr. Vrkes gave this ultimatum about signing the loyalty
22 oath and wearing the insignia, and you further on say: "The Serbs said we
23 belong to Banja Luka region" --
24 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I would object at this point. I mean,
25 the statement is in evidence. If Mr. Hannis wants to add additional
1 matters to the evidence, it really should come from the mouth of the
2 witness, not from reading out his statement to the witness.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the statement is in evidence.
4 MS. LOUKAS: Of course.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I have no idea what question will follow here,
6 whether he would like to ask, whether -- well, whatever question would
7 come at first, rather -- I mean, I do understand that Mr. Hannis takes the
8 statement which is in evidence to further explore any matter, then it very
9 much depends on what he'd like to know, whether it's admissible to give
10 this introduction yes or no.
11 So at first I'd like Mr. Hannis to put the question to the
12 witness, but if you would then please wait to answer that question so that
13 further objections, if necessary, can be made.
14 Mr. Hannis, please proceed.
15 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. In paragraph 17 -- 16 - I'm sorry, Mr. Karabeg - it says
17 that: "The Serbs said we belong to the Banja Luka region, we belong to
18 Serb Krajina. They said that if you do not do this, there is no way to
19 protect non-Serbs from extremists."
20 Can you recall specifically who told you that, which one of the
21 Serbs said that?
22 A. Vlado Vrkes said that, and President Nedeljko Rasula.
23 Q. And did they explain why they were of the opinion that there was
24 no way protect you from the extremists?
25 A. Well, it was like this, you see. It was a period where one could
1 feel the worst was coming, and the SDS had extended arm. Sometimes they
2 called them the Serb armed forces. Sometimes they were called the Serb
3 armed forces, this extended arm. And they did evil on the territory of
4 Sanski Most municipality to the non-Serb population. They sort of said
5 that they were extremist Serbs and that they could wield no influence on
6 them and that the ones that perpetrated these acts could not be stopped,
7 whereas in actual fact they did what they did pursuant to their
8 instructions, all the evil things they did. And on the other hand, they
9 said that they weren't able to defend us from those extremist Serbs which
10 they actually put against us, set against us.
11 And it was during this period of time that from the war fields,
12 from Pakrac, when UNPROFOR arrived, the 6th Krajina Brigade was sent back
13 fully equipped, under arms, fully equipped with weapons in the Sanski Most
14 municipality, and they also committed evil acts. They would get drunk.
15 They would shoot around and do things like that. So that was what
16 happened. Those were the people who were supposed to protect us or,
17 rather, they said that they couldn't protect us from people like that.
18 And they said that they wouldn't protect us from the people that actually
19 they issued orders to and were in command of.
20 Q. Let me stop you there and ask you to explain a little bit for us
21 about what you refer to as this extended arm. How big a group of people
22 are you talking about?
23 A. Do I have to wait for an objection from the Defence for me to
24 answer the question?
25 JUDGE ORIE: No. That was -- no, no.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You said that I should wait awhile
2 to hear the question from the Prosecution and then the objection from the
4 JUDGE ORIE: That was the last question. If there are any
5 specific instructions to be given, I'll give them.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Yes, I do apologise.
7 MS. LOUKAS: I would like to make one point. It's been called
8 forth, Your Honour, just in relation to that last question. Again, whilst
9 of course the witness wishes to explain, the answer was not entirely
10 responsive to the question. So -- and went on for a couple of paragraphs,
11 didn't specifically actually answer the question that Mr. Hannis asked.
12 I'm just wondering if perhaps the witness could be reminded to actually
13 answer the specific question that's asked by the Prosecutor.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked in the last question by Mr. Hannis
15 whether they did explain why they were not -- why there was no way to
16 protect you from the extremists. In your answer, I think you gave your
17 own opinion about why they couldn't protect you or why they said they
18 couldn't protect you, but the specific question was about what they gave
19 as an explanation. Could you tell us whether they gave any explanation?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did not wish to protect us.
21 To us, they said they wanted to protect us, but actually they did not wish
22 to protect us because they had these people as the extended arm to do the
23 evil and create chaos in the Sanski Most municipality.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did not wish to. They told us
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to our eyes that they did want to protect us, but in actual fact they did
2 not wish to protect us because they forced these people to commit evil
4 JUDGE ORIE: So their answer was, "We'd like to protect you but we
5 can't." Did they give any specific reason why they said they couldn't?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To accept reality, to accept --
7 they said, "Accept reality, accept the Serbian region of Sanski Most and
8 the Bosnian Krajina region and then we will protect you." That was what
9 they said.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So they said on the one hand, "We would like to
11 protect you but we only can," and of course "can" has different
12 meanings, "do this if you accept the reality." Is that what they told
14 A. Loyalty, yes. If we accept loyalty, if we accept Republika Srpska
15 and if we accept that Sanski Most be proclaimed Serbian Sanski Most.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Continue, Mr. Hannis.
17 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
18 Q. Could you tell me how many -- if you know, how many people
19 approximately in this extended arm of the Serbian defence forces that you
21 A. There were up to 50 men.
22 Q. And who were those men? Were they local or were they from
23 somewhere outside Sanski Most municipality?
24 A. They were all local people, all born in Sanski Most, all people
25 from Sanski Most.
1 Q. And their ethnicity?
2 A. They were Serbs, all of them.
3 Q. Do you know who the leader of this unit or this group was?
4 A. We thought at the time that the leader of the group, of that group
5 was Dusko Savija. However, we later learnt that all the time it was
6 actually Tomo Delic who took part with us in all our negotiations, and he
7 always said he wished to protect us from the group whereas in actual fact
8 he was head of the group the whole time. He was a well-to-do stonemason
9 from Sanski Most, from Krogora [phoen].
10 Q. And just for clarification I recall in your testimony in Brdjanin
11 that there is an acronym or an abbreviation for this group Serbian defence
12 forces. I just want to be sure we're talking about the same thing.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for the
15 MR. HANNIS:
16 Q. I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing with
17 regard to the Serbian defence forces. There is an acronym referred to in
18 your prior testimony, SOS. Is that the group you're talking about?
19 A. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, I understand from your written statement that you
21 left Sanski Most on the 19th of April, 1992; is that correct?
22 A. 19th of April, 1992. That was when I left my work post. They
23 forbid me to come in as president of the Executive Board to enter the
24 building. Or more exactly, not the 19th, it was actually the 20th. The
25 20th of April, 1992.
1 Q. Now, between the 11th of April when the police force went through
2 this reorganisation you described and when you left, were you the SDA and
3 HDZ still trying to negotiate with the SDS about how to run the town?
4 A. Yes, that's right. We did try, but they didn't wish to have any
5 contact with us after the 20th of April, 1992.
6 Q. I'm sorry. But between the 11th of April and the 19th or 20th of
7 April, were you still have talks with the SDS?
8 A. Yes, we were. That's right. We would have talks every day, two
9 or three times.
10 Q. And can you briefly summarise what were the -- what were the
11 topics of your negotiation? What was being proposed by each side?
12 A. Well, it was like this, you see: We asked that the legal organs
13 should function, the legal organs in the Sanski Most municipality, meaning
14 the police and the other organs of power and authority, and when they
15 asked the loyalty pledge to be signed for the police, the Milicija, and
16 that insignia be worn in conformity with that, they took over the police
17 building and did not allow the legally elected policemen to go to their
18 workplaces. And we said, "There is a lot of room in that building. So
19 there is the part of the building where you are, and there is the other
20 part which houses the Territorial Defence and the secretariat of the
21 Territorial Defence. So can we be accommodated there and can the police
22 be accommodated there, in that portion of the building?" They said that
23 that was impossible, that the building belonged to them, that they would
24 keep it for themselves and that allegedly we could think about the
25 municipality building.
1 Now, on the 17th of April, when we had the last discussion about
2 the police force, we decided to go to the police building. I myself did
3 because I was President of the Executive Board. So I went to my office.
4 I called the party president Redzo Kurbegovic to come, and in the meantime
5 I was called up on the telephone by the chief of police, Mr. Burnic, the
6 komandir. He was a Bosniak and he asked me, "Where are we policemen going
7 to have to go, because we are now in the fire brigade centre." And I
8 said, "Well, come over to the municipality building and that's where we're
9 going to stay, so we can all gather there together, all the workers of the
10 organs of management can gather there, the non-Serbs, I mean, the non-Serb
11 inhabitants," and that's what happened.
12 We started rallying in the municipality building, but actually
13 they didn't like that either.
14 Q. Let me stop you there if I may, Mr. Karabeg. Did they have some
15 specific proposals about how to divide the municipality?
16 A. Well, this is how it was, you see: They came out with the
17 proposal that the municipality should be divided and that the municipality
18 should be divided according to the branches and services. The
19 municipality building had two floors, two stories, so that we should
20 divide this, but the proposal wasn't that one side should have one floor
21 and the other side should have the other floor but to cut the
22 building vertically in half, so that half the building belonged to one
23 side and half to the other, and we agreed to this in principle.
24 What happened was that a third proposal was put on the table;
25 that is to say, that the building should be left to them and that we
1 should leave across the Sana River to the other bank of the River Sana and
2 take up accommodation in the administration building there which belonged
3 to the Sipad company. We said, well, don't make us go all that way
4 because it would create a new problem. Sipad, that is Sipad's
5 administration building, and 90 per cent of their workers were Serbs by
6 ethnicity, and we were sure that we would have problems with those
8 So we realised that they were actually trying to expel us and
9 force us into new problems, from one problem to another, from the
10 frying-pan into the fire, so to speak. So we didn't accept that proposal.
11 Q. Let me ask you if they had in addition to this proposal regarding
12 the -- the governmental authorities, was there a proposal also to divide
13 the town in the business and residential areas and, if so, what was that?
14 A. Yes, there was, that's right. They did have that proposal that
15 Sanski Most should be divided. Not by the districts but by streets,
16 depending on the inhabitants, the majority population in that street. So
17 if a street was mostly inhabited by Serbs, it would be a Serb street. In
18 streets inhabited by the non-Serbs, it would belong to our street -- the
19 street would be ours. We said that that was absolutely impossible, and
20 then they even went so far as to propose Ruzic Mirko and Boro Savanovic,
21 two men who worked in the town planning department, and they brought in a
22 map of the Sanski Most municipality with certain proposals along those
23 lines to divide up the town, but we said that this was quite impossible,
24 that it was not feasible at all, and that it couldn't be done. And that's
25 -- but their proposal stood, and they actually didn't need any proposal
1 because they took over the whole of Sanski Most and the inhabitants.
2 Q. Let me ask you on the 17th of April, where were you physically
3 located along with the non-Serb police?
4 A. On the 17th of April, we were in the building of the Sanski Most
5 municipality from 1.00 on the 17th of April.
6 Q. And did you receive any request or demand from the SDS on that
8 A. Well, let me tell you how it was. When we entered the building,
9 we had those talks and negotiations, and this mostly went during those few
10 days, that is to say, the 17th was a Friday, and on the Saturday the
11 18th and Sunday the 19th. And after that they put forward their proposal
12 to divide up the building, to divide it in half. We accepted. When we
13 accepted that, then they said, well, it shouldn't be cut in half because
14 the building was on the right bank of the Sana River and that we should go
15 to the administration building of the Sipad company across the river,
16 across the bridge, the other side of the Sana River, to leave them the
17 whole building.
18 So the talks -- those were the talks we had and the discussions we
19 had over those three days. And when the ultimatum followed on the 19th,
20 that is to say, on Sunday, in the evening, sometime around a quarter to
22 Q. And what was the ultimatum and who did it come from?
23 A. Here is how it was: When we were in the building, Nedeljko
24 Rasula, the President of the Assembly, called Vlado Sabica [as
25 interpreted] and told him we should leave the building and that we should
1 lay down our arms in front of the building and that nothing would happen
2 to us. We would not be harmed. If we failed to do so, then we might not
3 walk the earth any more.
4 Q. Let me stop you there for a second to correct something in the
5 transcript. Sir, who did Mr. Rasula call? Could you give us the name of
6 the person that Rasula called? Because it appears in the transcript as
7 Vlado Sabica, and I think you told me before that it was someone else.
8 A. Suada Sabica. Sabic. Suad Sabic. Vlado Suad Sabic.
9 Q. And was there a time by which you had to leave the building and
10 lay down your arms?
11 A. Yes, 2200 hours. When Suad Sabic arrived and told us of the
12 conversation he had had with Rasula, we had a meeting. However, in the
13 meantime, one of the policemen called us, and he saw through the window,
14 as it's a hill, he saw a column approaching with about 30 vehicles, and it
15 was night-time. The vehicles were lit up. They had lights. And we
16 assumed straight away -- we were 100 per cent certain that this was in
17 fact a column of soldiers of the 6th Krajina Brigade who were stationed in
18 Luka Palanka which is 25 kilometres away, lead by Pukovnik Basara. And
19 when we saw this, we realised that there was nothing for us, that we had
20 to leave the building of the Sanski Most municipality by the back door.
21 Most of us went to the village of Sehovac, and a small portion, seven or
22 eight, went to Gornja Mahala.
23 Q. Do you know what happened at the municipality building after you
24 left it that evening?
25 A. After we left that evening, the building was shelled with rifle
1 grenades. Bombs were thrown. Grenades were thrown. There was shooting
2 in the building. Zoljas were used, handheld rocket launchers, automatic
3 rifles. And the next day when I entered the municipality building when
4 General Talic was arriving, I used this opportunity to take a look at my
5 office, but it was all bullet-riddled, completely destroyed.
6 Q. Let me stop you there for a minute, and I want to show you an
7 exhibit, a document now, dated the 20th of April. And I want to ask your
8 comment on something that's in this document purportedly from the Crisis
9 Staff of the Serbian municipality. And this is to the Chief of Staff of
10 the Banja Luka Public Security Service and the Serbian news agency, and I
11 want to read the third paragraph and ask you a question about that.
12 It says: "It's the opinion of the Crisis Staff of the Serbian
13 municipality of Sanski Most that force had to be used in order to free the
14 Sanski Most municipal building from armed formations of the extremist wing
15 of the SDA leadership. Long and exhausting negotiations simply did not
16 bear fruit."
17 Can you tell me, Mr. Karabeg, what is being referred to as the
18 extremist wing of the SDA leadership in that document, if you know?
19 A. Well, this is how it was: If there was an extremist wing with
20 respect to the SDA, then that would be me, and I'm sitting here. The
21 President of the Executive Board of the legally elected organ of the
22 legally elected government, the police or Milicija legally elected once
23 again, and now these para-illegals wish to portray themselves as being
24 legal and lawful representing something that was illegal and unlawful
25 against us who were performing our functions legally, but they were
1 preventing us in doing that. And even these negotiations. They prolonged
2 them for such a long time and gave us some sort -- they said that they
3 agreed and tried to win us over, but in fact they were leading us into a
4 less and less favourable situation and they succeeded in doing that
6 Q. Now, I'm sorry, I don't think I got an exhibit number for that
7 document. Could that be given the next number?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Excuse me. Exhibit number P104.
9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, madam.
10 Q. Mr. Karabeg, I think you said before that you did come back into
11 town the next day, on April 20th. Can you tell us why you came back, how
12 that happened?
13 A. See, this is how it happened: On the 19th of April, at about
14 2200, we left the town hall, the municipality building, having been forced
15 to do so, and went to Sehovci where we spent the entire night. And the
16 next morning at about five minutes past 7.00, the president of the
17 municipality, Nedeljko Rasula called us and he talked to Suad Sabic again,
18 to whom he said that Momir -- General Momir Talic should arrive at 11.00
19 [as interpreted] in the municipality building together with his associates
20 and that he wanted to talk with us about the current problems. We
21 accepted that, and then he said, "I will send a group of policemen at
22 quarter to 12.00 so that you can be escorted." And we told him that we
23 did not want their escorts but that we wanted our police officers who had
24 been legally appointed to act as our escorts. And he said that there
25 could be no question about it, but then he called us a little later again,
1 and he said that it was okay, that we could come with our police officers
2 but that we should be there at 12.00 so that we could proceed with the
3 talks and negotiations.
4 So we got there escorted by our police. Suad Sabic, Anto Tunjic
5 on behalf of the HDZ, Kurbegovic. We came to the Sanski Most town hall
6 where we were received and finally taken to the office of the president,
7 Mr. Rasula.
8 Q. Let me ask you some questions about that. Where did this meeting
9 take place?
10 A. In the town hall, in the municipality building, in the office of
11 the then president of the Serbian Sanski Most, Mr. Nedeljko Rasula.
12 Q. This is the same building you had left just the day before;
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. And you described for us some of the damage you observed to the
16 building on that day. Did you observe any armed formation around the
17 building and, if so, who were they?
18 A. Now, let me tell you there were armed formations around the
19 building. As far as I could notice, those were members of the police, as
20 far as I could tell. And the president of the party, Mr. Vlado Vrkes, and
21 this was quite telling, this is what we noticed in particular, entered the
22 building in a new military uniform, wearing a pistol stuck at his belt.
23 And we could also see as we were entering the building that the building
24 had been damaged.
25 I used this opportunity when I arrived to see my office, because
1 it is located before the office of the president, Rasula, so I took a peek
2 and I realised that the office had been riddled with bullets. Hand
3 grenades had been thrown into the basement. We could see that as well.
4 Q. Who else attended this meeting other than the ones you've
5 described already? Was there a representative from the JNA?
6 A. Yes. General Momir Talic, the late General Momir Talic, Colonel
7 Hasagic, Major Zeljaja were there. I don't remember others, though.
8 Q. And what was discussed at this meeting?
9 A. See, the discussion resolved around the situation that had arisen
10 in the meantime, the fact that we had been in the municipality building,
11 that an ultimatum had been issued, that the municipality had actually been
12 attacked, that local business premises had been blown up, that the
13 soldiers of the 6th Krajina Brigade had erected barricades and
14 checkpoints, that many of the soldiers walked around in an inebriated
15 state and opened fire, that the situation, generally speaking, was
17 General Talic listened to what we had to say, and we adopted a
18 certain number of conclusions regarding this issue. The first one was
19 that checkpoints should be removed, that legally elected organs should
20 take up their offices again, that an end should be put to blowing up the
21 local business premises, and General Talic accepted our proposals as
22 conclusions of the meeting.
23 At the time, it was possible to address the public over the radio,
24 the local radio station, and we proposed, we suggested that he should read
25 out our conclusions over the radio. However, the director of the local
1 station, Mr. Orlovic, said that it was technically unfeasible. When we
2 disagreed, we also suggested that General Talic could simply pick up the
3 telephone and be put through to the local radio station and that these
4 conclusions could be read out and broadcast over the radio.
5 General Talic said, however, that he had no time for that, that he
6 should go back to Banja Luka. But there was one thing that we agreed
7 upon, and that is that we would meet again in the municipal building that
8 same evening at about 11.00 [as interpreted] to continue talking about
9 the -- all of these issues and to adopt further conclusions.
10 Q. Let me stop --
11 A. So I arrived outside the building, but the building, the municipal
12 building was surrounded and blocked by members of the police. There were
13 hedgehogs around it, transport vehicles, a number of police officers
14 outside the building, and I realised it was no longer possible for me to
15 enter the building of the municipality.
16 Q. Let me stop you there. I want to talk for a minute about the
17 discussions you had and the conclusions reached with General Talic, and to
18 do that I want to show you something in a document that I would like to
19 have marked as the next exhibit.
20 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honours, I would like to explain a little
21 bit about this next item. This is a item that's purported to be the diary
22 of the Nedeljko Rasula, the president of the Crisis Staff in Sanski Most.
23 That was item that was introduced into evidence in the Brdjanin case. And
24 for Your Honours to make some conclusions about this, I think it's
25 important to consider the 92 bis evidence of a number of the Sanski Most
1 witnesses who talk in more detail about this particular item than this
2 witness did or can, particularly the testimony of Adil Draganovic. But
3 for now, I would like to read out one small passage from the diary
4 relating to that meeting, and later on there's one other passage I want to
5 read to the witness and ask him to comment on related to his arrest.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P105.
7 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honours, the first section that I want to
8 go to in the English begins at the bottom of page 16 and the ERN is
9 01104343 and carries on over to the following page.
10 Q. And, Mr. Karabeg, for your reference, I know the diary appears to
11 be in handwritten Cyrillic. Do you read Cyrillic, sir?
12 A. Yes, capital letters. I can read capital Cyrillic letters.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, I'm a bit confused. You say it begins at
14 page 16 and the ERN, last four digits, is 4343 whereas it is 4344 in my
15 English version.
16 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Maybe there's a difference
17 in numbering in the copy I have.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have something marked on the bottom of page
19 17 --
20 MR. HANNIS: Is it the comments of General Talic? I'm looking
21 for --
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to refer to General Talic's concluding
23 remarks, that's on the bottom of page 17 in my version.
24 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: ERN number 4345.
1 MR. HANNIS: All right, Your Honour. I -- I have a different
2 number on the copy I have, but that is the portion I want, the concluding
3 remarks of General Talic.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. But wouldn't it be wise that
5 you're working from the same version as the Chamber does because otherwise
6 we'll have to check every single letter. I'm --
7 MR. HANNIS: Yes, I have that copy, Your Honour. There appears to
8 be a difference in the page breaks. I'm now working from the same copy
9 that Your Honours have now.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then perhaps I can ask for one further
11 clarification, that is my first page has two ERN numbers on it. On the
12 top it's 01104328, and on the bottom it is 01104329. Oh, let me just have
13 a look.
14 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. I think this copy, there is more
15 than one ERN per page in some cases. It's not a one-to-one match-up.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do see that, although it switches after
17 number 10, and in the original that's still on one page of the -- let's
18 see whether we could follow you on the bottom of page 17, ERN number three
19 last digits, 4345.
20 MR. HANNIS: Yes, sir.
21 Q. Mr. Karabeg, I want to read you something and ask you a question.
22 Here in the document it says: "General Talic concluding remarks,
23 reach agreement but without undue delay. The police -- military police
24 from Prijedor shall remain and if need be from Banja Luka. We do not
25 recognise the paramilitary formations. We're not allowing barricades to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 be put up. The JNA will guarantee the peace of the citizenry and the
2 security of property. We're asking for your help." And then it says:
3 "Don't call anyone for help otherwise you will have Kupres,
4 Bosanski Brod, Vukovar."
5 Do you recall General Talic makes these remarks during the
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what did you understand the remark about Kupres, Bosanski Brod
9 and Vukovar to mean?
10 A. Now, let me tell you how it was. We took it to mean, to refer to
11 the situation in those cities, that Sanski Most would also become a
12 destroyed city, a scene of the conflict, and that is what he had in mind -
13 at least that's what we thought - when he alluded to Vukovar and the
14 situation in that city, the city that had seen a lot of destruction and
15 many conflicts.
16 Q. After that meeting, you indicated that there were some proposals
17 that had been put and agreed upon, including removing the checkpoints.
18 Were those carried out in accordance with the agreement?
19 A. No, they were not. Quite the contrary. The situation grew worse.
20 We proposed that we should meet again at 1800 at the municipal building,
21 but that meeting never took place, for instance.
22 But there is one other thing that I have to mention. That day
23 when we parted with General Talic, I talked to him a little, and I told
24 him that he had seen for himself what the situation was. And I also said
25 that I did not believe that the meeting would take place that evening, but
1 General Talic gave me his telephone number, and he told me that I could
2 call him at any time of the day should the situation deteriorate.
3 Q. And did you call him?
4 A. Since we did not meet on the 20th of May at 6.00 p.m., the next
5 day the situation did not change, and then on Wednesday at 9.00, 9.30, I
6 called General Talic on the number that he had given me, and it was rather
7 strange that I was able to get him 10 to 15 seconds later. I didn't have
8 to wait at all. And I told him that Rasula was not accepting any of the
9 conclusions that we had adopted. He raised his voice, and then he swore
10 at Rasula. And at that moment, I think I believed that -- I think it was
11 a Thursday, and it was the liberation day of Banja Luka. I was watching
12 the news, and the breaking news was the ceremony that was taking place on
13 that day. I saw Talic sitting in the front row together with Karadzic. I
14 believe Krajisnik was also there together with Biljana Plavsic and others,
15 and because of that I only laughed at what he had said.
16 If I may please finish. I laughed and I said, "These guys are
17 lying to us. They are only pretending that they're trying to help us, but
18 actually they're not accepting any of our proposals." Because this was
19 quite a blow for me, the fact that I had seen the general there at that
20 ceremony, the general who had given us his promises the day before.
21 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask for one clarification first. You earlier
22 indicated that the second meeting on the same day would take place at
23 11.00 at night, whereas you then twice said that it would take place
24 at 6.00.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, there is the period of
1 time between the 17th and the 19th of April, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
2 At 2200 hours on the 19th of April, we were forced to leave the building
3 of the municipality and went to Sehovci. On the 20th they summoned us to
4 come to the meeting which it can place at noon and lasted until 3.00 in
5 the afternoon with General Talic, at which meeting we agreed that we
6 should meet again at 1800 hours with Rasula and others at the building of
7 the Sanski Most municipality to continue with our work.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the transcript reads, I may draw the
9 attention of the parties to page 26, line 6. It's written down as your
10 testimony, but -- and I'll read it to you. "General Talic said, however,
11 that he had no time for that, that he should go back to Banja Luka, but
12 there was one thing that we agreed upon and that is that we would meet
13 again in the municipal building that same evening at about 11.00 to
14 continue talking about all of these issues and to adopt further
16 So you in the beginning -- I don't know whether it is a
17 translation mistake. You said 11.00, at least we read that it was
18 translated to us as 11.00, whereas you said later two times and now you
19 confirm that it was 6.00.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, no. This never took
21 place nor was it possible for me to state that. Just a second. So that
22 we -- I mean, General Talic said that he had no time, and at 3.00 on the
23 20th, he left Sanski Most and went to Banja Luka, but the idea was for us
24 who stayed behind to meet again at 1800 at the municipal building in order
25 to continue the talks.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I just wanted to clarify there must have been
2 a mistake, whatever mistake, about 11.00.
3 We have some time restraints, and you earlier explained that
4 whenever you would like to add something you would like to do so, but
5 nevertheless, I would like you to follow a bit more the questions. If any
6 further elaboration is needed, you'll certainly hear additional questions
7 put in that respect, but I would like to leave it mainly to counsel where
8 to focus on, and if there is any specific issue you'd like to raise, you
9 always can ask me whether you can add something.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. So was that the last time you had a conversation with General
13 Talic was that phone call when you complained about Mr. Rasula's failure
14 to follow up on the agreements of 20 April? Was that the last time?
15 A. Yes, it was.
16 Q. And was there someone else from the JNA that became the point of
17 contact for you and the SDA after that last contact with General Talic?
18 A. Yes, Colonel Basara.
19 Q. And did Colonel Basara take any action in the community of
20 Sanski Most around that time talking about what the JNA could and would do
21 to try to help the situation?
22 A. You see, this is what happened. I did not take part in the talks
23 with Basara. The so-called Patriotic League was established at the time,
24 which consisted of the representatives of the leftist parties, and I know
25 that Fuad Kurbegovic told me that he had talked to Basara at that meeting,
1 and that he said that he would see to it that the situation in the
2 Sanski Most municipality improves and that he would protect the non-Serb
3 population. And Suad expressed his gratitude for that line of thinking,
4 and he said that he had suggested that Colonel Basara would be declared as
5 a honourary citizen of Sanski Most, but nothing came of that. No promises
6 were -- were made, nor was he ever declared an honourary citizen of Sanski
8 Q. And you talk about that I think in paragraph 60 of your written
9 statement, where you also say that Colonel Basara was promising that he
10 would, "Deal with extremists in the SDS and SOS." Did he deal with the
11 extremists in the SDS and SOS?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Now, you mentioned before the SOS. Can you tell us the names of
14 some of the local Serbs from Sanski Most who were a part of that unit?
15 You mentioned a couple already, but do you -- can you name any others?
16 A. Dusan Mudrinic, Dusko Savija, Tomo Delic, Dane Kajtez, also
17 known as Daniluska. I don't remember any other names.
18 Q. Now, did there come a time when you yourself were arrested?
19 A. Yes. I was arrested on the 25th of May, 1992.
20 Q. Where were you arrested and by whom?
21 A. I was arrested at home, and it was the people that I just
22 identified that arrested me. They were led by Dusan Mudrinic, also known
23 as Medeni. Then there were others as well. They came in two vehicles. I
24 remember Mico Krunic, a retired police officer who was there, then this
25 man by the nickname of Lasta. I don't know his family name. I don't
1 remember others, but I know that there were eight of them and that they
2 had come in two vehicles, in an old Mercedes and a Lada Niva and that they
3 were fully armed.
4 Q. And did they wear any type of uniform?
5 A. Yes, they did. They did. They wore camouflage uniforms, but some
6 also wore the old Milicija or police uniforms.
7 Q. Where did they take you?
8 A. They took me to the police station. Medeni told me that Rasula
9 and other police officers wanted to see me and have an interview with me.
10 Q. Let me stop you there, sir.
11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, this would be a good time for the
12 break, I believe.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This would be a suitable time for the break.
14 We will have a break until five minutes to 11.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, you may proceed. Do you have any idea on
18 how much time you'd still take?
19 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I don't believe I will take more than an
20 hour to finish with this witness. We had him originally scheduled for
21 four hours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I know that. And we are of course we expected
23 to gain some time on the 89(F). Please proceed.
24 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Karabeg, I think you still have in front of you Exhibit P105,
1 and it's turned to a page that I want to read something from and ask you
3 MR. HANNIS: And Your Honours, in the English I believe this is
4 page number 39 or ERN 01104365.
5 Q. And, Mr. Karabeg, on your document --
6 MS. LOUKAS: Just before Mr. Hannis proceeds, if we could also
7 have the B/C/S number so that Mr. Krajisnik can turn to the right page of
8 the document.
9 MR. HANNIS: I was just starting to read that number, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: It's the 25th of May at least, so if that helps.
11 MR. HANNIS: Yes. And the ERN for the B/C/S is 00379462. And
12 it's the right-hand page, and we're talking about an entry that is for the
13 25th of May, 1992.
14 Q. There are four items listed. Number three talks about the
15 disarmament plan and its beginning, and number four is pre-empting enemy
16 operations. A is arrest of leaders, and B is detention facilities.
17 Item 4 is discussed in further detail below. It talks about take
18 into custody Adil Draganovic and arrest Redzo Kurbegovic, Mirzet Karabeg
19 and others. And, Mr. Karabeg, you told us you were arrested on the 25th
20 of May; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And during April and May 1992, were you aware of any disarmament
23 activity taking place in the municipality of Sanski Most?
24 A. Well, you see, we, up until the 11th of April, 1992, or
25 thereabouts, until the SDS put forward its proposal according to which the
1 police should sign the loyalty oath and bear Serbian insignia of the
2 Autonomous Province of Banja Luka, we had joint distribution of arms from
3 the Territorial Defence, and members of the reserve force of the
4 Territorial Defence, the reservists and the reserve policemen were issued
5 arms. We had joint collection points in the municipality up until the
6 arrival of the 6th Krajina Brigade to the Sanski Most municipality and its
8 Q. I apologise, Mr. Karabeg, maybe I wasn't clear. Were there any
9 activities --
10 A. Yes. I was just going to address that issue and to continue. And
11 through the media, by the Serb police and the leadership of the SDS, it
12 was -- the non-Serbs were asked to return their weapons that they had in
13 their possession, and people accepted this because they knew what could
14 happen to them should they fail to return those weapons. And what
15 happened was that they returned that legally issued -- those legally
16 issued weapons to which they -- which they had been given.
17 And I myself as President of the Executive Board had, by virtue of
18 office, in my safe, I had an automatic and 200 bullets.
19 Q. Did you surrender your weapon?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. And the last thing I want to read --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel. Microphone,
23 please, for the Prosecution.
24 MR. HANNIS:
25 Q. Under item 3 of the disarmament plan in Exhibit P105 it indicates
1 that captured civilians to be used for exchanges. Sir, were you
2 eventually exchanged after your arrest and detention?
3 A. I was exchanged on the 31st of October, 1992. From the Manjaca
4 camp, but we're talking about the beginning, the 25th of May. So I
5 experienced and lived through a great deal and received a lot of beatings
6 to boot.
7 Q. I want to ask you some questions about that now. Now I'm finished
8 with that document, sir, so you won't need to refer to that any more.
9 I think right before the break you told us you were arrested and
10 taken to the police station in Sanski Most?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, before we continue, I see that you have
12 paid attention to two specific pages of this document. Of course I cannot
13 exclude the wider context becomes relevant at a later stage. If you would
14 limit it to these two pages, I wonder whether we have to admit into
15 evidence the whole of the diary.
16 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we will be seeking to admit the whole
17 diary before we finish with Sanski Most, because it is talked about by
18 several the witness or --
19 JUDGE ORIE: So we get other relevant parts as well.
20 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear to us. Thank you.
22 MR. HANNIS:
23 Q. Mr. Karabeg, when you were taken to the police station, what
24 happened to you there?
25 A. When I was arrested, I was told that I would go for an informative
1 talk, as they put it, and I expected to see the president, Nedeljko
2 Rasula, and Vlado Vrkes, and that it really would be a talk. So I went to
3 the police building, but when I got there they told me to sit down in the
4 hallway and a 15 minutes later somebody came to fetch me, one of the
5 policemen, I know his first name was Kuzmo. And he said that I should
6 take the laces out of my shoes and give him my belt, my trouser belt, and
7 some other items I had on me, to leave them behind, and he escorted me to
8 the prison, the police prison cell, and I was put in cell number 2.
9 Q. Were there any other people in cell number 2 when you were first
10 placed there?
11 A. Yes, that's right. When I got there, I found three other persons
13 Q. Next I'd like to show you a photograph. And could this be given
14 the next exhibit number, please.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P106.
16 MR. HANNIS:
17 Q. Can you tell us what that is a picture of, Mr. Karabeg?
18 A. This is a picture of the building, of what was the police station
19 at the time and the Territorial Defence and the defence secretariat, their
20 premises, and the front entrance and the police building, the front
21 entrance from the road.
22 Q. And can you tell us where on that photograph the front entrance
23 to the police department is?
24 A. This is the front entrance, the main entrance.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 A. As it is now. It still exists, that entrance does, and so does
2 the building.
3 Q. Thank you. Thank you. I'd like to show you another photograph
4 right now. If it could be given the next exhibit number.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, just for the record, the witness pointed
6 to the front of the higher four-storey part of the building on the left of
7 the photograph.
8 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Because otherwise people would have to consult the
10 video to order to know what the witness pointed at.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour, for clarifying that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P107.
14 MR. HANNIS:
15 Q. Mr. Karabeg, how big was that cell that you were placed in
17 A. The size of the cell was two by three metres. Two metres wide or
18 three or four metres long, but I think it was three metres long.
19 Q. And could you take a look at Exhibit P107 on the ELMO next to you
20 right now and tell us if you recognise what that's a picture of?
21 A. This is one of the cells in the prison in which we were
23 Q. Is that cell number 2 that you were kept in or can you tell?
24 A. I think this could be cell number 2. I think it could be cell
25 number 2.
1 Q. And how long were you kept in that cell? How many days were you
2 kept there?
3 A. I was in this cell from the 25th of May, 1992, and I said
4 previously that that was up to the 6th of June, but I made a mistake, and
5 I was there until the 9th of June in actual fact, when I was sent to the
6 Betonirka company where I spent from the 9th of June to the 7th of July.
7 And then I was returned on the 7th of July and stayed there until the 28th
8 of August in this cell, in this particular cell number 2 again in the
10 Q. And during those two separate occasion or those two separate
11 periods of time that you were kept in this cell at the prison, what was
12 the maximum number of men inside that cell at one time?
13 A. Well, you see, all the time non-stop there were seven us in the
14 cell, but on one particular night there were 14 of us, and that was when
15 it was best they transferred seven more to cell number 2 from cell
16 number 1. But we were happy to see one another and to hear each other,
17 because we were lying one cell next to another with a wall dividing us.
18 So we were actually happy that these people were placed into our cell
19 because it gave us a chance to talk to then, because when we were let out
20 for breakfast and lunch, they would let out the prisoners from cell
21 number 1, and then they would take them back and cell number 2 would go
22 out for breakfast and lunch and then so on and so forth down the cells.
23 So they never let us out together. They would let us out individually
24 from each particular cell. But at that time there were 14 of us, and of
25 course although we didn't sleep the entire night, we were happy to be able
1 to talk to one another the whole night. But as I say, the regular
2 inmates, there were seven of us all the time.
3 Q. And who were the people that were kept in that cell with you? Did
4 you know them? What was their ethnicity? Where were they from?
5 A. I knew all those people, all of them. They were all citizens of
6 the Sanski Most municipality, non-Serbs, of non-Serb ethnicity, which
7 means Bosniaks, Muslims, and Croats.
8 Q. And what were the conditions like other than -- you've described
9 what the size was and how many people were in there, but what were the
10 conditions as far as food and sanitation?
11 A. Well, let me just say that I wasn't able to recognise this cell
12 straight away, but I remember, because on the opening here, the aperture,
13 there was a piece of tin plate that -- with holes in it, with very small
14 holes for the air to come in, small ventilation holes, but otherwise there
15 was this tin plate. And they would let us out in the morning for five or
16 ten minutes, usually five, sometimes ten, to have breakfast, and then they
17 would let us out for lunch at about 3.00 or 4.00, once again five or ten
18 minutes. And all the rest of the time we spent in the cell.
19 And when we were in the cell, the conditions were what they were.
20 We had to take it, make do with what we had. But of course we were always
21 beaten, all of us, and we were given orders to beat each other. Somebody
22 would always come into the cell, and somebody would always find a reason
23 to have us beaten.
24 Q. And what provisions were there for sanitation and keeping
25 yourselves clean?
1 A. As far as the sanitation was concerned and sanitary conditions,
2 this is how it was: We had a WC within this compound with a tap, a water
3 tap, and when we were allowed out for breakfast or lunch, we would use
4 that opportunity to come back as soon as possible to wash ourselves and to
5 go to the toilet.
6 Q. During your five or ten minutes for breakfast and lunch, what kind
7 of food and how much did you get?
8 A. We would be given -- well, the food was the remains of what the
9 reservists had had to eat, what was left behind after the reserve
10 policemen. So they would have their meals before us, and what was left,
11 we would eat their leftovers.
12 Well, actually, we didn't see whether it was their leftovers, but
13 the food was always cold and watered down. And as far as bread was
14 concerned, we could only dream about eating bread. We had a very thin
15 slice now and again in the evening.
16 Q. And who were the people that were guarding you while you were kept
18 A. We were guarded by mostly policemen. They were mostly policemen,
19 as we called them, the militiamen, but policemen, yes, mostly. And we
20 were guarded around the clock. They had three shifts. But there was
21 another characteristic feature. Entrance into this prison -- the entrance
22 to the prison incorporated a large steel door which was locked. So this
23 large steel door had to be unlocked and opened for anybody to reach us, to
24 reach the part we were in. And then we were all locked up individually,
25 seven by seven, in the individual cells. And they had steel doors or iron
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 doors as well. And there was a small aperture, a small opening on the
2 door. You could open it to let some air in, but they kept closing off
3 this opening, this small window. So there was no possibility of having a
4 bit of ventilation through that small opening. And we started to
5 suffocate from the lack of air. And one day towards evening we were taken
6 outside the cells, and the tin plate that had the small holes in it was
7 blocked up -- was taken down, and this left the window, which was open, so
8 we were happy, because we thought that was for our own health, but we
9 realised that there was a visit from the International Red Cross, and
10 that's why they had taken down this perforated tin plate and let a little
11 air come in through the window. But as soon as they had left and the
12 visit was over, they put it back in place.
13 Q. You mentioned earlier that there were beatings while you were
14 there. Who were the people that were beating you and what organisation
15 did they belong to, if you know?
16 A. We assumed that they were all policemen. Most of the people
17 guarding us beat us as well, most of them did.
18 Specifically, let me give you an example. When we were let out
19 for lunch on one occasion, I stayed back in the toilet. I spent a longer
20 time in the toilet and spent time washing. And when I went back to the
21 cell, I saw there was nobody in the cell, and the policeman said to
22 me, "They're not here. You go out." So I stepped out, and I saw five of
23 them standing up against a wall with their hands behind their backs and
24 their heads lowered. The policeman said, "Now, here's a baton, and you
25 must give -- hit everybody five times, give everybody five blows." What
1 could I do? I started beating them. When I had finished, the policeman
2 said to me, "That's not the way you do it. Fuck your balija mother," and
3 then he took the baton from me and began beating me.
4 And then he said, "Now you stand up against the wall," and he took
5 another one out and he told the other man to beat the rest us. And so he
6 repeated this with all six of us, so we all had to take turns in beating
7 each other and then finally he beat us all together, one by one.
8 Q. Just to be clear, who were the other five people that you beat?
9 I'm not asking for names but ethnicity.
10 A. They were Bosniaks and one Croat by the name of Franjo. Franjo
11 Ilicic was his name. So six of us in the cell at that point in time, cell
12 number 2. But that was just one example.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.
14 MR. HANNIS:
15 Q. Let me ask you about your next place of detention. You said you
16 were -- for the first time you were there from May 25th to June the 9th
17 and then you went to Betonirka. I'd like to show you a photograph. If it
18 could be given the next exhibit number, please.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P108.
20 MR. HANNIS:
21 Q. Could you tell us what Betonirka was before the fighting started
22 in Sanski Most? What kind of facility was it?
23 A. Betonirka was in fact a set of garages for official vehicles
24 belonging to the Splonum company which was a section of Betonirka,
25 Sanakerm, and there this was a department of the Betonirka firm. So they
1 were a garage complex but not finished, incomplete.
2 Q. Would you look at Exhibit P108 and tell us what that's a picture
4 A. On this photograph, I can see the administration building of the
5 Betonirka company and also the police building.
6 Q. And can you describe and tell us which of those buildings is the
7 administration building and where it is on the photograph?
8 A. That's it. It is at the entrance to the Betonirka compound. This
9 is the administrative building. And this is the police building.
10 Q. And for the record, Your Honour, I believe for the administration
11 building he pointed to the white building on the left side of the
12 photograph, and he indicated the police building as the -- what appears to
13 be a three-storey building on the right edge of the photograph.
14 Now, could we have the next photograph given an exhibit number.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P109.
16 MR. HANNIS:
17 Q. Mr. Karabeg, can you tell us what's in that photograph.
18 A. This photograph shows the garages belonging to Betonirka, the
19 Betonirka compound where we were incarcerated.
20 Q. And were you kept in one of those garages?
21 A. Yes, I was, in garage number 3. But may I take it in turn from
22 the entrance. This was garage 1, garage 2, and garage 3, and I was in
23 this third one.
24 Q. And you were moving from right to left on the photograph. So
25 garage number 3 is the one on the left?
1 A. From the entrance, taking it from the entrance. That's right,
3 Q. All right.
4 MR. HANNIS: Now could we show the witness the next photograph,
5 and may it be given the next number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P110.
7 MR. HANNIS:
8 Q. While that's coming up, Mr. Karabeg, could you tell us what kind
9 of activity went on at the administration building, the white building you
10 pointed out to us in Exhibit number 108? What happened there?
11 A. In the administration building, that was where the guards had
12 their headquarters centre. When they would beat us, although they beat us
13 in the garages and the compound itself, but mostly when they beat us up in
14 the evening, they would call us to come to the administration building one
15 by one. They would call us out one by one to avoid having any witnesses,
16 any eyewitnesses to the beatings.
17 But what was characteristic was that when you were called out to
18 go to the building alone and you would be beaten up and returned back to
19 the garage, that same person, half an hour later, so if I was beaten
20 alone, then he would come and ask sort of in a provocative way, "How are
21 you? How do you feel? I don't want anybody beating you, and if anybody
22 beats you, come to me and I'll protect you." And you just look at him and
23 think, Well, you beat me up half an hour ago and now you're coming to ask
24 me how I am and ask me whether anybody was beating me and whether I needed
25 any help. But that was to intimidate us and, of course, they took us out
1 one by one so they wouldn't have any eyewitnesses to the beatings.
2 Q. Could you please look at Exhibit P110 and tell us if you recognise
3 what's depicted there.
4 A. Yes, I do recognise that.
5 Q. What is that?
6 A. That is the inside of one of the garages.
7 Q. And approximately how big was the garage in which you were kept?
8 A. The garage was three by five metres, perhaps six. I know it was
9 three metres wide. Now, whether it was five or six metres long, I can't
10 really say. I think it would be six metres more like.
11 Q. And during your detention there, what was the maximum number of
12 individuals kept in that room at any one time?
13 A. There would be as many as 37 of us. When I was brought in, there
14 were just four, because the previous group who was in the Betonirka was
15 sent to the Manjaca camp. So that was the least number there ever was,
16 but on an average there would be between 20 and 25 of us, but when a new
17 lot came in there would be up to 37 of us at certain points in time.
18 Q. And what was the ethnicity of the people who were kept in there?
19 A. Non-Serbs. Bosniaks and Croats, that is.
20 Q. And if you know, were they civilians or military personnel or some
22 A. All of them were civilians.
23 Q. And do you know where they were all from, what municipality?
24 A. All of the detainees were from the area of the Sanski Most
25 municipality. There were no other detainees, no other people from other
2 Q. And who were the people who were guarding you during your
3 detention in the garages?
4 A. Let me tell you. They were not actually guarding us. They beat
5 us and mistreated us, and all of them were members of the police force,
6 members of the reserve police force as well, members of various working
7 groups that they had, the SOS members, for instance, who would come in
8 from time to time to beat myself and others who were detained in garages.
9 But they were all from the territory of the Sanski Most municipality.
10 Q. And what was the ethnicity of the police and the SSO -- the SOS
11 members who were guarding you and beating you?
12 A. Serb ethnicity.
13 Q. Do you know what happened to people -- well, you mention at one
14 time there were as many as 37 people in your garage. Do you know what
15 happened to those people after they were taken away from the garage where
16 you stayed?
17 A. Let me tell you, those who were taken out from the garage would be
18 beaten up, and some of those who were taken out would then be sent to
19 Manjaca, mostly to Manjaca.
20 Q. Now, if we could show the witness the next exhibit. It's a
21 document --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. Could we show the witness the next
24 exhibit, a document dated 4th of June.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P111.
1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
2 Q. Mr. Karabeg, you told us that some of the people were taken to
3 Manjaca. How did you know about that?
4 A. You know how. Normally they would round up the prisoners who
5 would be then taken to Manjaca. I think that as far as the Sanski Most
6 area is concerned, the detainees were taken to Manjaca on five different
8 I was in the last group which consisted of 49 people. We were
9 also taken to Manjaca. We knew that we would be taken to Manjaca. And I
10 also saw the people who had been taken to Manjaca. I saw them there at
11 Manjaca when I got there.
12 Q. Would you take a look at the document that's in front of you. The
13 B/C/S is 00471274, and this appears to be some conclusions of the Sanski
14 Most Crisis Staff. I want to ask you about number 1 and number 2.
15 Number 1 indicates that three individuals are going to be in
16 charge of resolving the issue of prisoners and their categorisation. The
17 three categories are politicians, national extremists, and people
18 unwelcome in Sanski Most municipality.
19 At that time, were you aware of any kind of categorising of the
20 prisoners that you were among?
21 A. No, I was not. I saw this for the first time the day before
23 Q. And number 2 talks about the Crisis Staff decides to appoint Drago
24 Vujanic, as prison warden. At the time you were in the prison behind the
25 police station and at Betonirka, did you know who the warden was?
1 A. No, not at the beginning at least. Because it was only later,
2 after my arrival, that I learned that he was the -- the prison warden. I
3 was there from the 25th of May until the 9th of June. He never came to
4 see us, so I didn't know who the prison warden was. Actually, I thought
5 that it is was Papric, because he was the one who visited me on the second
6 day. But it was only once that I arrived in Betonirka that I learned that
7 he was the warden and that Mico Krunic, a retired police officer, was his
9 MR. HANNIS: Now, may the next item be given an exhibit number
10 and shown to the witness.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation, if I might formally
12 for the record indicate that I will be objecting to this particular
13 document because its provenance has not been established. Additionally,
14 it's indicated in the English translation that certain matters are
15 underlined and there's some circling, and it doesn't seem to be actually a
16 translation of that particular document.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hannis, I also noticed that under item 2 it
18 says circled 3, whereas in the original I do not see any circled 3, as a
19 matter of fact. Therefore, we have a similar problem here as we had
20 previously. Apart from that, Ms. Loukas objects since these -- as she
21 said, the provenance has not been established.
22 Ms. Loukas, may I ask you before we continue that to look at the
23 back at least of the second page of the B/C/S version and on the fourth
24 page where at least we find some indication as far as the -- well, perhaps
25 not a source but at least it's attested by Jutta Paczulla of the ICTY that
1 is a copy is compared to the original and that -- I don't know whether you
2 took that into account when you said you wanted to object, whether you
3 would say that Jutta Paczulla should appear and testify about that.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone for the counsel.
5 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Just in relation to that, Your Honour, while it
6 is noted that the document came from AID, we don't know how it got to
7 AID. So in that sense the provenance has not been established.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Okay. Let's -- I noticed your objection
9 at this moment.
10 Mr. Hannis, would it be appropriate to find out during the next
11 break a bit more details about it and then give you an opportunity, if you
12 would have concluded your examination-in-chief until the next break to
13 give you an opportunity to just put additional questions in relation to
14 this document after you have given a clarification which satisfies the
16 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I will. I have no further questions for
17 this witness about this document, and I can address that issue, but I will
18 also address the issue you mentioned regarding the translation and the
19 circling and underlying. I think it is similar to our problem from this
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Please proceed.
22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I can't remember if we asked to have the
23 next document shown to the witness.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if the Court would be
25 so kind to allow me to say just a few words regarding item 2, very
1 briefly, concerning this document.
2 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, we have a procedural issue which
3 we'd like to resolve first before we hear any further testimony in
4 relation to this document. So I would ask you --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well. Very well. I wasn't
6 going to testify about the document. I just wanted to tell you something
7 about this particular category of nationalist extremists.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked whether you knew anything about the
9 categories, and I'd rather leave it to that time when -- please proceed.
10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
11 Q. Mr. Karabeg, I want to show you another document dated the 6th of
12 June, and if it could be begin the next number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P112.
14 MR. HANNIS:
15 Q. Mr. Karabeg, this appears to be a letter from the acting chief of
16 police in Sanski Most to the Manjaca military commander talking about an
17 agreement regarding prisoners from Sanski Most to Manjaca, and I want to
18 ask you about a remark in the last paragraph which states: "We're still
19 holding several persons in the detention rooms in this public security
20 station, and that we shall also send them to you for further procedure
21 after the operative processing."
22 You were being held in Sanski Most at the prison on June the 6th
23 of 1992; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 MR. HANNIS:
2 Q. And from your experience there during your that time, can you tell
3 the Court what operative processing of prisoners consisted of?
4 A. You see, we were often beaten up, mistreated, humiliated, and of
5 course in such situations we sometimes felt forced to admit to the things
6 we had never done. So this was duress and coercion. They tried to force
7 us to give statements, and then they would send us to Manjaca. There were
8 960 of us who were processed, so to speak, in the same way. I mean 960
9 from Sanski Most. So it was after a series of beatings and torture and
10 ill-treatment that we were sent to Manjaca for further action.
11 Interrogators came to Manjaca as well, and beatings continued there as
12 well. They would take people out of the compound, out of the premises,
13 the rooms there, and beat them up as well.
14 Q. And when were you taken to Manjaca?
15 A. On the 28th of August, 1992.
16 Q. And how long did you remain there before you were exchanged?
17 A. I stayed there until the 31st of October, 1992, when I was
18 exchanged in Turbe near Travnik.
19 Q. And, Mr. Karabeg, I'm not going to ask you the details about your
20 detention in Manjaca because we have some other witnesses who have talked
21 about that. But I do want to ask you, while you were there, did you have
22 occasion to talk with other detainees who had come to Manjaca from
23 Sanski Most municipality?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And were you aware from conversations with those other people
1 about what was happening with regard to the non-Serb population in Sanski
2 Most municipality in the summer of 1992?
3 A. Yes, I was. This is what we talked about most. There were two
4 camps at Manjaca. They were separated with a fence, a wire fence. I was
5 at the second camp where there were three barns where between 600 and 700
6 of us were located. Most of us were from Sanski Most, Prijedor, Kljuc,
7 Kotor Varos, Jajce, Sipovo, and from other areas of the Banja Luka region.
8 All of us non-Serbs, Bosnian Muslims, and Croats.
9 Q. And were you aware of what was happening with the non-Serb
10 population in Sanski Most municipality other than those of you who were
11 detained? Were those people staying or leaving the municipality?
12 A. We did receive some information to the effect that almost
13 everyone, as a result of mistreatment, killings, beatings, arson, and
14 plunder of non-Serb property, that the majority tried to leave as soon as
15 possible. So this was all being done to them in order to force them to
16 leave their homes.
17 Q. And were you aware of any requirements that were imposed by the
18 Serb or the SDS authorities on non-Serbs to leave the municipality at that
20 A. See, this is how it was: Those people were mistreated in every
21 possible way. The situation became untenable for them, and they tried to
22 leave those parts as soon as they could. In order to be able to leave
23 Sanski Most, they were all forced to sign a statement to the effect that
24 they would never come back and that they were leaving all their movable
25 and immovable property to the municipality, to the municipal authorities.
1 And what is even more telling, they were forced to pay their electricity
2 bills, water bills, various taxes, taxes on land, on business, on
3 property. So they had to settle all of that and then they would sign a
4 statement to the effect that they were leaving all their property to the
5 municipal organs.
6 And this was all the result of the pressure that was being exerted
7 on the people. They were brought into the situation to request the
8 approval to leave the territory of the municipality.
9 There was a large number of non-Serbs from the territory of
10 Sanski Most who worked elsewhere in the west as seasonal workers. They
11 also had to sign such declaration so that their family would be able to
12 leave for Croatia and third countries. And then there were lots of cases
13 of simple evictions. People would be physically expelled from their
14 homes, and Serb refugees, Serb war veterans would be given or allocated
15 their homes, whereas the real owners had to live in some outside buildings
16 or simply leave.
17 Q. Excuse me --
18 A. And it was no secret. They had decided to allow less than 10
19 per cent of non-Serbs to remain in the area.
20 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'm running short of time. I
21 need to get to a couple more items if I may.
22 MR. HANNIS: Can we show the witness the next document.
23 Q. Mr. Karabeg, this relates to what you were talking about, I
24 believe. This is a document dated the 2nd of July, 1992, from the Crisis
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P113.
2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
3 Q. Mr. Karabeg, I just want to read from Article number 1 under that
4 decision entitled, "On the criteria for the possibility of the
5 departure from the municipality." Article 1 says: "Voluntary departure
6 from Sanski Most municipality shall be allowed. The families and persons
7 who give a statement to the authorised municipal administration organ that
8 they are permanently leaving the municipality and they're leaving their
9 real property to Sanski Most municipality."
10 Is that consistent with what you were aware of at that time as to
11 the requirements for leaving Sanski Most by non-Serbs?
12 A. I heard about this -- that this was done, and during that period
13 at the time I contacted the people of non-Serb ethnicity from the
14 territory of the municipality, and they told me, yes, that this was indeed
15 the case, that they had to sign the statement to the effect that they
16 would never come back, that they would leave their property to the
17 municipality of Sanski Most. They had to pay all of the arrears that they
18 might have had, electricity, water bills, taxes, and all other dues that
19 they had to pay. So it was just another way of extracting money from
21 And see, for example, I had a beautiful house and I was evicted,
22 physically evicted from my house, and a Serb national was brought to my
23 house, and I would be forced outside, to live outside in an outhouse or a
24 shed. And this is only one thing. This was coupled with numerous
25 incidents of destruction and arson of the property belonging to those
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Karabeg. I have two last items I want to show you
3 before I finish.
4 MR. HANNIS: If we could show the witness the next item, a
5 photograph. This is ERN 02165297.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P114.
7 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
8 Q. Mr. Karabeg, you mentioned Betonirka and the prison where you were
9 detained in Sanski Most. Were you aware of other facilities in town where
10 non-Serbs were detained during that summer of 1992?
11 A. Yes, I was.
12 Q. Can you name some of those?
13 A. See, for instance, you have the Hasan Kikic school here, then the
14 Krings hall, the sports centre -- or, rather, the gymnasium. It was quite
15 typical for the schools to have been turned into camps where people were
16 detained. There were other places as well. And I'm really sorry to this
17 day that the memorial centre belonging to Simo Milusa, a famous
18 revolutionary was used as a detention centre where people were
19 interrogated, beaten up, and for that same reason that Hughes was burnt
21 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to that last question that was
22 asked, placing a document in front of a witness with all the names there,
23 I'm not entirely sure that that is of great use to the Trial Chamber,
25 Secondly, whilst of course hearsay is accepted in the Tribunal,
1 it's clearly not the best evidence in relation to this, and I just think a
2 procedure whereby a document with a list of names is presented to the
3 witness so he can read them out is -- is not effective evidence-taking,
4 and I would object to that sort of evidence-taking, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, yesterday we briefly discussed leading
6 questions --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I may continue. I'd
8 like to continue.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No. One moment.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To respond to the question, a
11 specific question, and there's a correction that needs to be made. You
12 see, here -- please. Please. Muhici is not a small town. Muhici is a
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karabeg, I'll give you an opportunity to make
15 whatever amendment or whatever change at a later stage. I first will
16 respond to the objection to this question raised by Ms. Loukas.
17 Mr. Hannis, yesterday we discussed leading questions, and you
18 said, well, it was a yes or no question. Of course you could have asked
19 on all the eight items on this photograph to see whether or not this was a
20 detention facility. But just to clarify the issue, a leading question is
21 a question which suggests the answer to be given or is a question which is
22 based upon a not yet established fact. One could consider eight pictures
23 of facilities of which already two of them have been identified as places
24 where people were kept in detention, it would be suggestive for the other
25 six. So it would have been appropriate to ask the witness whether he was
1 aware of any other detention facilities and what was the basis of his
2 knowledge if he was not detained there by himself. That would be a better
3 way of introducing the matter than presenting eight pictures.
4 MR. HANNIS: I understand, Your Honour, and I will take that in
5 mind. I do want to indicate that my purpose in showing him this is just
6 to try and verify that these eight separate locations pictured on here are
7 accurately represented on the map as to their respective locations.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That might have been the next question,
9 whether -- I think that Ms. Loukas would have less objections if we tried
10 once the witness would have identified detection facilities where to put
11 them on the map precisely because that's an easily verifiable issue. So I
12 can imagine that she would not have objected against that leading issue.
13 MR. HANNIS: In addition, Your Honour, a number of 92 bis
14 statements of witnesses from this municipality have already been accepted
15 into evidence and those witnesses talk about these detention facilities,
16 and I was not aware that the Defence was seriously contesting that these
17 were detention facilities in Sanski Most.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's proceed. But let me first give you an
19 opportunity, Mr. Karabeg, to tell us what you'd like to tell us before the
20 procedural incident was raised. Please tell me what you intended to say
21 just a couple of minutes ago.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what I wanted to say:
23 Mahala and Muhici, Mahala is a neighbourhood made up of several streets
24 where the camps were. Muhici is just one street. It is one and a half
25 kilometres long, but it's not -- that street could not have been a camp.
1 Yes, in the street of Muhici and Gornja Mahala there were, but
2 Gornja Mahala incorporates various quarters, a quarter of six or seven
3 square hectares, in fact, a district of that size.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 You see, Ms. Loukas, that leading does not always lead to a
6 confirmation of what the suggestion is, because the witness has now said
7 that at least that some of these items, they could not as such have been
8 detention facilities.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 MR. HANNIS:
13 Q. Mr. Karabeg, I just want to ask you with regard to those eight
14 photographs on --
15 A. They couldn't be. Mahala couldn't be a whole neighbourhood. They
16 had thousands of facilities. They wanted to knock it down and have a new
17 town planning for their Serbs, the Serb soldiers to build a new
19 Q. Mr. Karabeg, with regard to that photograph and map in front of
20 you in that exhibit, I just want to ask you if the eight separate
21 photographs which have a number 1 through 8 are accurately located on the
22 map. Do you understand my question? Does each number correspond to the
23 correct location for the photograph that pertains to that number?
24 A. Yes. Yes. With the exception of this Muhic settlement, and
25 Mahala settlement. I'm not quite clear on what that is. What does that
1 mean? What is that?
2 Q. Was there an area of Sanski Most town that was referred to as
4 A. Yes, that's right. And we've just spoken about that, and it was
5 five or six square hectares in size, in area.
6 Q. And was it --
7 A. Yes, there were camps.
8 Q. But Mahala is referred to as item number 7. Is the number 7 on
9 the map in the correct general vicinity which was known as Mahala in
10 Sanski Most town?
11 A. I just have to find my way here, the left and right bank. Mahala
12 and Muhici were on the left bank of the Sana River. So I think so, yes.
13 I think that's right.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, may I ask you is there any specific
15 relevance for the exact locations within Sanski Most for those facilities,
16 and is there any dispute as to whether the SUP building was here or there?
17 MR. HANNIS: I believe it may help the Court in evaluating some of
18 the written evidence of other witnesses. That's the only purpose that I'm
19 offering it for at this point, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then --
21 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. There is obviously no dispute
22 about the locations of particular buildings.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the location of these buildings might have
24 been - apart from what they exactly were - might have been something that
25 the parties could have agreed upon.
1 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Mr. Karabeg, now I want to show you one last item. If it could be
4 given the next exhibit number.
5 A. Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P115.
7 MR. HANNIS:
8 Q. Mr. Karabeg, this is a black-and-white photograph, and I would
9 like you, if you can, identify any of the individuals in that photograph
10 that you know and point them out to us or tell us where they're standing,
11 what they look like.
12 A. This is --
13 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to this photograph.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MS. LOUKAS: Prior to there being any questioning in relation to
16 the photograph, I think it's appropriate that a date might be established
17 by the Prosecution. To see if it's in any way probative to this case
18 before the Court.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if you would start if whether there's any --
20 whether the witness has any knowledge or whether you would -- whether or
21 not in the presence of the witness would give us further information as to
22 the time frame related to this photograph.
23 MR. HANNIS: I can ask him a question about that, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. HANNIS:
1 Q. Mr. Karabeg, do you know how this photograph came to be here in
2 court today? Have you seen this photograph before today?
3 A. Yes, I have. I've seen this photograph before. This photograph
4 was certainly taken on the 25th of May, 1992, until the 10th of October,
5 1995, taken in Sanski Most. Between that period of time certainly. I
6 can't give you an exact date, but it was certainly taken between those
7 dates, in that period.
8 Q. And how do you know that, sir?
9 A. You see, I never saw Mr. Krajisnik. I never met him, but this is
10 the period of time when I was not in Sanski Most myself. And the period I
11 arrived in Sanski Most, when the liberation came, I came across this
12 photograph in Sanski Most.
13 Q. And I take it that was after the 10th of October, 1995.
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 JUDGE ORIE: It's still not clear to me. Well, let's just assume.
16 Why couldn't it be a photograph of 1989, for example?
17 MR. HANNIS:
18 Q. Mr. Karabeg, do you understand the question the Judge just asked?
19 A. Yes, I do understand. No, it cannot be.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Would you explain why.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It can't be 1989 because I would
22 know about it. I lived in Sanski Most.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Your answer suggests that the photograph is a
24 photograph taken in Sanski Most. Is that correct?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: How do you know that?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know it was taken in Sanski Most
3 because the guests, the head of the municipality, Nedeljko Rasula is here,
4 for example. That's the head of the municipality that we've been talking
5 about throughout, Nedeljko Rasula.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it Mr. Rasula has been outside of
7 Sanski Most now and then as well. What makes you accept that this is a
8 picture taken in Sanski Most?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because of him. And it was found in
10 Sanski Most.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you say it was taken in Sanski Most. Would
12 it have been taken before I was arrested, I would have known about these
13 persons together in Sanski Most, and you said --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And after you were released or exchanged, you say you
16 found -- did you personally find this photograph in Sanski Most?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not personally. I took the
18 photograph from a book, which was entitled, "It is a Crime to Forget a
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It seemed that it appeared on page 24. Perhaps
21 you could ask. It's still not very conclusive, Mr. Hannis, to say the
22 least, so if you would please further try to elaborate why perhaps in the
23 framework of the book, whatever, to convince the Chamber that it is a
24 relevant photograph.
25 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, I may address that point first.
1 What I wanted this witness to do was to identify the persons that he knows
2 in the photograph, and at this point that's all I wanted to establish, the
3 fact that particular individuals were together.
4 Now, I don't have at this point additional information on the
5 specifics as to what this event was and when exactly it occurred, but that
6 may come in later. But with this witness, because he's the one that
7 brought the photograph here, I wanted to ask him if he could identify a
8 particular individual in that photograph. And the Defence objections and
9 the other objections I think are matters that go to weight and something
10 the Court may consider once you've heard all the other evidence regarding
11 this municipality and this photograph.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You would say that what you want to establish at this
13 very moment, awaiting what evidence further will be adduced, is that these
14 persons have been photographed when being together.
15 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Wherever, at whatever time.
17 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then to -- for this limited purpose, please proceed.
19 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
20 Q. Mr. Karabeg, can you now tell us which individuals, if any, you
21 recognise in the photograph and point them out for me and the Court,
23 A. As I said a moment ago, this is the president, Nedeljko Rasula,
24 president of the municipality of Sanski Most, Municipal Assembly.
25 MR. HANNIS: For the record, Your Honour, the witness is pointing
1 to the gentleman in the middle of the photograph who is facing outward.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right. Toward the
4 MR. HANNIS:
5 Q. And to his immediate left, do you know who that is?
6 A. To his immediate left is Krajisnik.
7 Q. And seated at the table, do you recognise any of those people?
8 A. Yes, I do. I recognise Karadzic and his wife.
9 MR. HANNIS: And for the record, he indicated the gentleman seated
10 on the right side of the photograph and the woman to his immediate right.
11 Left on the photograph but to the right of the individual.
12 Q. Anyone else, Mr. Karabeg?
13 A. No, I don't know anybody else.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. HANNIS: I have no further questions at this time, Your
16 Honour. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
18 Ms. Loukas, is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness.
19 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. I'd like to --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Ms. Loukas.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could we --
22 MS. LOUKAS: Perhaps after the break or --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we take the break a bit earlier now and then
24 you would have another 70 minutes remaining. We will adjourn until 25
25 minutes to 1.00, and there is any news about the documents we referred to
1 earlier, Mr. Hannis, the Chamber would like to hear.
2 We will adjourn.
3 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 12.39 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, any clarifications in respect of the
6 source of the document and the circles around number 3?
7 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. I have now a different English
8 translation. Actually, the English reads just the same except it has no
9 handwriting on it, no circling, no underlining. This is the English
10 translation of the ERN, the B/C/S original 00471274 through 1277, and I
11 would now propose to offer to the Court to substitute this for the English
12 translation that we had earlier with the circles and the underlining.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And there was a second issue about the
14 provenance of this document.
15 MR. HANNIS: Yes. The information I have regarding that at this
16 time, Your Honour, is this document was part of a package of documents
17 received from AID in Bosnia in November of 1995. As you mentioned before,
18 it has the name and the certification of the ICTY investigator who
19 received the documents. The note that I've been able to find so far
20 relating to that reads as follows, if I may, Your Honour: "In total this
21 file contains 28 documents covering the period from 21 April 1992 to 23
22 June 1992."
23 I don't have any other information internally from AID as to who
24 in AID who found it, who they received it from, et cetera. I will try to
25 get that information, but this is all I have at this time.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll delay any decision until such
2 information has been provided to the Chamber, of course unless the Defence
3 would be satisfied by the explanation as given until now, but --
4 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, actually I'd like to know a little
5 further. And that objection in relation to the question of provenance, I
6 think that was Exhibit number 111 applies also in relation to 112 and 113.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MS. LOUKAS: I'm just interested in the actual source, the
9 original source of the documents.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MS. LOUKAS: In question.
12 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, part of our argument is the
13 original source of the document is the Sanski Most Crisis Staff, and some
14 of those documents have a signature of the person. For example, I think
15 one --
16 JUDGE ORIE: One much them has. One of them is signed the Crisis
17 Staff. But of course what Ms. Loukas is referring to is how did it get
18 from the Sanski Most Crisis Staff to AID, if it ever came from Sanski Most
19 Crisis Staff.
20 We'll delay decision on this, but it has been -- we have taken
21 notice that an objection is made in that respect.
22 Ms. Loukas, then, may I invite you to start cross-examination of
23 the witness.
24 You'll now be examined by counsel for the Defence, Ms. Loukas.
25 Please proceed.
1 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Karabeg.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, of course you've previously given evidence
6 before this Tribunal in the Brdjanin and Talic case, the case against
7 Mr. Brdjanin and the late Mr. Talic?
8 A. Yes, I have.
9 Q. And -- and I think you gave that evidence between the dates of
10 the 27th of May, 2002, and the 30th of May, 2002?
11 A. I think that's correct, yes.
12 Q. And of course prior to giving your evidence, you gave the solemn
13 declaration that you would tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
14 but the truth.
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I formally tender the transcript of the
17 previous cross-examination under 92 bis (D).
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that would then be, as far as I can see it,
19 pages 6208 up till and including of those stricken out, 6313.
20 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct, Your Honour. There were just some
21 irrelevant matters on that last page there.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MS. LOUKAS:
24 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, what I propose to do firstly is just take you to
25 your statement that is now in evidence.
1 MS. LOUKAS: Perhaps it might be useful if the copy of
2 Mr. Karabeg's statement with the numbered paragraphs was placed in front
3 of him.
4 A. I think you have that statement before you now, Mr. Karabeg?
5 A. Yes, I do. Thank you.
6 Q. Lovely. Now, I just want to highlight some of the matters there
7 briefly that are contained within your statement. Are you with me?
8 A. Yes, I understand.
9 Q. And this hopefully should be a relatively simple process with
10 hopefully most of the questions being able to be answered yes or no.
11 Now, firstly I take you to paragraph 11 of your statement, and you
12 see there that you've stated there: "I do not have firsthand information
13 of the functions of the Crisis Staff, and all I know is only hearsay and
14 rumours." Do you see that there?
15 A. I see that.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, obviously as a lawyer, you're very careful about
17 ensuring the accuracy of matters that you put in your legal statement, and
18 that's why you've fairly mentioned that matter there in paragraph 11.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, going to paragraph 39 of your statement. Do you have that
21 before you there, Mr. Karabeg?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. Yes. And it's there stated that in relation -- I think you
24 indicate there was a pleasant meeting, and then there was further stated
25 that there would be no meeting, but the point you make there, the point I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 want to emphasise there is the SDS told you that they could not control
2 their extremists. That's correct, and that's what you have stated there,
3 Mr. Karabeg?
4 A. Do you require just yes or no answers or may I give broader
5 explanations and answers?
6 Q. Well, first of all, I want you to confirm for me that the SDS
7 stated to you that they could not control their extremists.
8 A. Absolutely correct.
9 Q. Right. And that's all I'm seeking your agreement to at this
10 stage, the matters that are covered in your statement. You understand
11 that aspect, Mr. Karabeg?
12 A. Well, it's like this: One of the negotiators was Tomo Delic, and
13 he led the SOS, and he said to us that he could not rein in the
14 extremists, whereas he was the head of the extremists. And it is true
15 that that is what they said. That is true, yes. But he was at the head
16 of the extremists, Delic, for instance, and his cafe was his property, and
17 he said that he can't -- could not control those people under his command,
18 in actual fact, but it's true that they said yes, they could not control
19 their extremists.
20 Q. Now, you've mentioned the name Tomo Delic, but of course the
21 situation is that it wasn't just Tomo Delic telling you that SDS could not
22 control their extremists?
23 A. No. Tomo said that and so did Boro Savanovic and Vlado Vrkes.
24 Vlado Vrkes even cried. Cried right in front of us. He shed a tear and
25 asked us, entreated us to leave the municipality building but nothing
1 happened that actual evening.
2 Q. Okay. Now, moving on to paragraph 56 of your statement. Do you
3 have that before you?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. Now, in paragraph 56, you state, of course, that you had no
6 dealings with the SOS and that you further state there, further down in
7 the paragraph, that you believed that the SDS funded the SOS because you
8 saw them together several times. You see that aspect in your paragraph
10 A. I do.
11 Q. Now, of course, and being entirely fair, I think you've indicated
12 there in that paragraph that it was, of course, your -- it was just your
13 belief that the SDS was associated with the SOS.
14 A. Let me put it this way: You can translate the term "belief" in
15 any way you like, but that was the situation at that time. They were all
16 the same, all of them.
17 Q. Yes, of course. But you fairly state in your statement that
18 that's your belief.
19 A. I'm now claiming. I might have said believe then, but I now say I
20 claim after all the knowledge I have had afterwards about that period and
21 talking to the Serbs who returned to Sanski Most and who live in
22 Sanski Most today, having returned to their own houses.
23 So let me repeat: It is possible that I used the verb "to
24 believe" then, but I now claim and assert.
25 Q. So you claim and assert on the basis of things you've heard from
1 other people subsequently. That would be a fair statement of what you're
2 saying, Mr. Karabeg?
3 A. After such a long period of time and what I learnt about it, and a
4 lot was learnt about it later on, and if I was to make a statement here
5 and now today, I would give a different statement, a more specific and
6 concrete statement, because I learnt more on the basis of talking to
7 people, documents and so on and so forth. So my statement today would be
8 different than it was then.
9 Q. Of course, Mr. Karabeg, this statement -- you gave this statement
10 in July 1999, I think. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you've had the opportunity to make further corrections in
13 relation to your statement.
14 A. It's like this: If I were to correct --
15 Q. First of all, you have had the opportunity to correct your
16 statement. Firstly answer my question and then we can go on to other
18 A. Yes, I have. And if I were to correct them further, I would
19 correct them on a daily basis, every day, because I always learn more and
20 hear about more things.
21 Q. Okay. So basically you're saying you believed then but your own
22 opinion is that you're convinced now. That would be a fair assessment of
23 what you're saying, Mr. Karabeg?
24 A. It would, yes, and that's what I said.
25 Q. Now, if you'd just turn to paragraph 70 of your statement. You've
1 stated there that: "During this first time in the prison, prisoners were
2 taken out for interrogation and beaten. The guards, soldiers, police and
3 even people from the street would come and beat prisoners."
4 You see that particular aspect there at paragraph 70, Mr. Karabeg?
5 A. Yes, I do see that.
6 Q. Mr. Karabeg, you'd agree with me it all sounds a little chaotic,
7 the situation there whereby people are just coming in from the street and
8 beating prisoners? It sounds like there was quite some situation of
9 chaos. Would you agree with that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, just going to paragraph 76. You of course there quite --
12 indicate that you never saw any Serb leaders at Betonirka camp, and that's
13 of course correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that further in relation, I think, to paragraph 83, if you
16 might turn to that particular paragraph.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. There were no women there. And I think paragraph 84, that --
19 sorry, paragraph 87, that you never saw any men die or any dead bodies at
20 Betonirka. That's what you've stated there?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And of course that's all true?
23 A. Yes, it's the truth. I never said it wasn't the truth.
24 Q. No. This process, I'm just getting you to confirm particular
25 aspects of your written statement at this stage.
1 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one small clarification to the witness.
2 Mr. Karabeg, in line 83, the English translation -- in
3 paragraph 83, the English translation reads: "While I was in Betonirka,
4 there were no women that he saw kept in the camp." Does this mean that
5 you never saw a woman kept detained in the camp?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. I did not see that. But
7 I can't claim whether there were any or not. I simply didn't see any.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So when you confirmed on the question of
9 Ms. Loukas whether -- that it was true that there were no women in the
10 camp, your answer correctly is that you never saw any women being kept
11 detained in the camp?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I did not see any.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
14 MS. LOUKAS:
15 Q. Yes. So we've confirmed that aspect of paragraph 83 and
16 paragraph 87.
17 Now, I'm just going to switch areas now, Mr. Karabeg, and I just
18 want to take you to certain aspects of your previous testimony when you
19 gave evidence in the case against Mr. Brdjanin and Mr. Talic, the late
20 Mr. Talic.
21 Now, firstly, Mr. Karabeg, taking you to -- for the benefit of
22 the Court, I'm going to page 6210 of the transcript.
23 Now, just in relation to that, Mr. Karabeg, I'll read through some
24 of the questions and answers you gave there and just ask you to confirm
25 those particular answers. Firstly you were asked this question -- and I
1 think I can go a little bit more quickly, Your Honour, because the
2 interpreters do have copies of this particular transcript before them.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but they have to translate into B/C/S, and they
4 might not have a B/C/S transcript.
5 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour. I better clarify that. I
6 assumed that the interpreters had copies of the transcripts, but perhaps
7 they don't.
8 JUDGE ORIE: But apart from that, that would be the English
9 transcript only.
10 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, that's correct.
11 JUDGE ORIE: If you would read slowly, because having the original
12 is not yet providing a translation into B/C/S.
13 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, it might be easier for them to have
15 one, but if you start reading slowly -- there are copies I do understand.
16 Yes. If they could be distributed to the -- how many copies do we have?
17 One. Yes, and that's for the English, B/C/S booth then I take it.
18 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.
19 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Yes, now, just going to page 6210, you were asked this particular
21 question when you were being cross-examined by Ms. Fauveau-Ivanovic. You
22 recall that aspect of that particular cross-examination, Mr. Karabeg?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. You were asked this question: "Prior to the elections of 1990,
25 Sanski Most municipality was indeed part of the association of Banja Luka
1 municipalities." Is this true?
2 MS. LOUKAS: Actually, Your Honour, I'm having trouble hearing
3 the -- okay.
4 Q. Yes. So you were asked this question. And your response was:
5 "Yes, indeed. Bosanska Krajina." Do you recall that question and answer?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Of course that's true?
8 A. Yes, I do recall.
9 Q. And the municipalities which you have just named, Kljuc, Prijedor,
10 Bosanska Dubica, Bosanska Gradska, Celinac, Latasi, were also
11 municipalities that were part of the association of Banja Luka
12 municipalities or, as you say, as you call it, Bosanska Krajina. Is that
13 the case?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And your answer was, of course: "Yes, that's the way it was.
16 Bosnia and Herzegovina was divided into these regions. That was within
17 the framework of Yugoslavia."
18 Now, the other aspect I wanted to ask you in relation to that
19 particular portion of the cross-examination is that -- for the benefit of
20 the Court at page 6244 of the transcript.
21 MS. LOUKAS: Does everybody have that particular page?
22 Q. Now, you were asked this question: "Yesterday you said that you
23 saw General Talic on television cordially greeting leaders of the SDS; is
24 that correct?" And your answer was: "Yes, and he was in the front row.
25 The camera shot a close-up of those people."
1 And of course that is an aspect of which you gave evidence earlier
2 today. You recall that, Mr. Karabeg?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You were further asked this question: "The occasion at which
5 General Talic was with the SDS leaders was this celebration of the
6 liberation of Banja Luka at the end of the Second World War, was it not?"
7 And your answer was: "I think it was. I think it was."
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you were further asked this question: "And that celebration
10 was held every year, was it not? Even before 1990, these celebrations
11 were a regular event. Isn't that so?"
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. And your answer was: "I think so. We had similar celebrations in
14 Sanski Most, the 20th of October, which was celebrated every year. So I
15 assume that was what had happened in Banja Luka. I can't claim that
16 because I didn't go there."
17 Do you agree with the response you've given there?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. And, of course, just in relation to that particular aspect, is it
20 possible you're mistaken about seeing Mr. Krajisnik on that -- when you
21 saw it on the TV?
22 A. Let me tell you, first are you referring to my answer yesterday,
23 the one I gave yesterday?
24 Q. Well, I'm referring to the evidence you've given globally in
25 relation to this issue, that you spoke about, I think -- you gave evidence
1 about this aspect previously when you gave evidence in the Brdjanin case,
2 and I think it was today --
3 A. Yes, yes, yes, yes.
4 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
5 A. I agree with the answer that I gave. But at that time, I was
6 primarily interested in General Talic.
7 Q. Yes. So you couldn't be certain that you saw Mr. Krajisnik on
8 that particular occasion on the television footage that you saw?
9 A. Yes. Yes, I saw that, and I maintain that.
10 Q. Okay. So what date are you saying this is?
11 A. You're asking me a lot, because --
12 Q. I'm just asking approximately.
13 A. -- this was -- we parted with General Talic on the 20th of April,
14 1992, on Monday. I didn't call him on Tuesday. I called him on
15 Wednesday. So this could have been either on Thursday or Friday. Monday,
16 the 20th or Tuesday the 21st. Either the 23rd or the 24th of April.
17 Q. So you're talking about April 1992?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now -- and I'm putting to you that you're mistaken about
20 Mr. Krajisnik being there in April 1992. What do you say about that?
21 A. I don't know. That's -- that's your statement.
22 Q. Do you allow for the possibility that you're mistaken about that?
23 A. You see, at that time I wasn't paying much attention on them. I
24 focused on General Talic.
25 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Karabeg, you see, Mr. Krajisnik was not there
1 in 1992, in April 1992, so is it just possible that what you saw on TV was
2 file footage from another year?
3 A. You see, again I did not pay much attention to that. That footage
4 showed me that those who were destructive and who were perpetrating crimes
5 were there, and General Talic was with them. General Talic who had
6 promised that he would take care of the situation, that there be would
7 peace, and there he was sitting in the front row with the people who were
8 destroying Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 And on that footage -- it's not that I saw anything bad, anything
10 evil. I just saw General Talic with those people, which made me realise
11 that he would not make good to the promises that he had given and that it
12 was merely for the sake of appearances that he had come to Sanski Most and
13 talked to us.
14 Q. But again as you fairly conceded, Mr. Karabeg, you couldn't be
15 certain that Mr. Krajisnik was there because your emphasis was on the fact
16 that you saw General Talic there? That's correct, isn't it?
17 A. I noticed him, I noticed Karadzic, and I noticed Plavsic. And
18 another civilian -- I'm sorry, and the priest whose name now escapes me.
19 The local priest, I noticed him as well.
20 Q. Okay. Now --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, could you -- or I would ask the witness.
22 Your answer was -- you were asked whether -- that you couldn't be certain
23 that Mr. Krajisnik was there because your emphasis was on the fact that
24 you saw General Talic there, that's correct, isn't it, and you said, "I
25 noticed him." I understood this to be General Talic. Is that correct?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, at that time my attention
2 was focused on General Talic and who he was with. He was there with those
3 who were destroying Bosnia and Herzegovina. And on the other hand, he had
4 come to see us to talk about peace and improving the situation, and it was
5 when I saw the footage that I concluded that he would not make good on his
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's your appreciation of the situation, and
8 we are mainly focusing now on the exact facts. That means when you said,
9 "I noticed him, I noticed Karadzic, I noticed Plavsic and another
10 civilian," you referred to the priest. You meant by "him" you meant
11 General Talic?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant and I also noticed
13 Krajisnik. I was referring to him as well. I was referring to Krajisnik,
14 Talic, Plavsic, and Karadzic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Loukas. And I'm not asking
16 you to move to your next subject, because I can imagine that you will have
17 some further questions on this issue as well.
18 MS. LOUKAS: As a result of Your Honour's question, yes.
19 Q. Okay. But again, Mr. Karabeg, it's correct to say, is it not,
20 that you could be mistaken about seeing Mr. Krajisnik on this particular
21 file footage because your emphasis was on General Talic? That's correct,
22 is it not?
23 MR. HANNIS: Pardon me, Your Honour. I need to object to that
24 question because I don't think there's any evidence yet that it was file
25 footage, and he's already answered the question about whether he could be
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to --
3 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, I'll withdraw that, Your Honour. I was thinking
4 about the file footage, but it's obviously the TV --
5 JUDGE ORIE: It still has to be established. That's one of the
6 examples of leading questions.
7 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, indeed.
8 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, what you saw on TV that you've given evidence
9 about previously, I'm putting to you that to be absolutely fair, you would
10 concede that it's possible you were mistaken about seeing Mr. Krajisnik on
11 TV because your emphasis was, of course, on General Talic and General
12 Talic was your focus because you'd just been dealing with him in the days
13 prior to your watching this television footage?
14 A. No.
15 Q. So --
16 A. Because I noticed the people who were present there, and I also
17 saw that General Talic was in their company, and I realised immediately
18 that the whole thing was a lie, because there was nothing essentially bad
19 about this ceremony, the liberation of the town of Banja Luka. Quite the
20 contrary. It's a very fine occasion to celebrate the day that
21 municipality was liberated. Again, I didn't see anything wrong with that.
22 I just concluded that because of the company he was in, he had lied to us,
23 that he would not do what he had promised to do.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karabeg, may I stop you here. It's entirely
25 clear what your thoughts were and what your appreciation was at that time
1 seeing Mr. Talic on television. But that's not the issue we're discussing
2 at this moment.
3 This morning, and I literally quote to you, you said: "I saw
4 Talic sitting in the front row together with Karadzic. I believe
5 Krajisnik was also there together with Biljana Plavsic and others, and
6 because of that I only laughed at what they had said."
7 The issue is this morning you said, "I saw Talic together with
8 Karadzic. I believe Krajisnik was also there." The question is: This
9 morning you said, "I believe Krajisnik was there," and you seem to be more
10 certain now, a couple of hours later. The question is: Why did you say
11 this morning "I believed" --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You say you didn't.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But let me -- let me tell you. I
15 said this morning, and what I said this morning I abide by that, but the
16 lady from the Defence insisting on something. I don't know exactly what
17 she's insisting on. Maybe she wants me to also leave out "I think" or "I
18 believe," that it was an old file TV footage. How would I know that? But
19 I maintain -- I abide by what I said initially. I think.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That is a second question, whether you saw on
21 television the footage of what happened that day or whether you saw on
22 television any footage of something that happened before, one year before
23 or at any other occasion. The question is where you said this morning,
24 unless you say, "I didn't say that," and we'll check that in the original
25 audiotape, where you said this morning, "I believe Krajisnik was there
1 together with Plavsic." You seem to be more certain at this moment. We
2 would like to know why did you say "I believe" this morning and why do you
3 now say, "I saw him on television"? And I'm talking about Mr. Krajisnik.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because it's -- it's -- it's
5 self-implying, because I believe I saw him means that I saw him. If I
6 said that I believed I saw him, it means that I had probably seen him
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say it's a probability that you saw him
9 that day appearing on television. Is that a correct understanding?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, it is.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, please proceed.
12 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
14 MS. LOUKAS:
15 Q. So, Mr. Karabeg, you fairly conceded to his Honour that it's a
16 probability that you saw him that day appearing on television. So clearly
17 you can see the possibility that you didn't see him that day on
19 A. I cannot acknowledge that, that it is possible that I did not see
20 him on that day. I don't accept that.
21 Q. Now, leaving that aside, are you prepared to concede the
22 possibility that you are mistaken about it being current footage, as at
23 that time, April 1992.
24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm sorry, I think he already answered
25 the question that he wouldn't have any way of knowing whether or not it
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 was file footage.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I think Ms. Loukas is entitled to further
3 explore whether this absence of any knowledge is well-founded.
4 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.
5 MS. LOUKAS: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MS. LOUKAS:
8 Q. So, Mr. Karabeg, I just am going to ask you that question again.
9 Are you prepared to concede the possibility that you are mistaken about it
10 being current footage at that time, April 1992?
11 A. I cannot answer that question. I don't have a question to that
12 answer -- I don't have an answer to that question. Correction. I didn't
13 work in TV. I don't know how it was edited. I didn't see it -- I didn't
14 see any writing to the effect that it was a file footage. I didn't see
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Karabeg, so the question is whether you
17 had any positive reason to accept that it was a footage from the same day
18 or whether there was any indication that it would not be the footage of
19 something that happened that same day.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a reason, because it is
21 quite possible that the TV broadcast what was happening on that day,
22 because otherwise something would have been written on the image to the
23 effect that it was a file footage or archives or a date. It was a simple
24 gathering or a simple rally that took place on that day.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but there was nothing like, for example, the
1 weather or -- well, whatever that gave you the impression that it was the
2 footage of what happened that same day or any reference made by any of the
3 speakers to what happened the day before or a week before which could not
4 have been said one year earlier?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. There was the TV presenter
6 who said that on that day, a ceremony was held on account of the
7 anniversary of the liberation of Banja Luka and that present were
8 so-and-so, a couple of -- several of them, and then this footage from the
9 ceremony was shown. I don't know what it was exactly, whether it was a
10 session in -- whether it was inside the hall. There were dozens of people
11 there, but I don't exactly know what kind of ceremony it was.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember whether it was a footage shown during
13 a news programme or any programme --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During a news programme.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.
16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, moving on to another area. Page 6251 of the
18 transcript, for the Court's benefit. You were asked some questions there
19 and gave answers I just want to confirm with you, Mr. Karabeg. Do you
20 understand that?
21 A. I understand.
22 Q. Now, these questions were asked: "Hence you don't know exactly
23 what happened in Hrustovo and Vrhpolje during your detention. Is this
24 accurate?" And your answer was: "Well, I heard it from others, what the
25 others experienced, but I personally never saw it."
1 Do you remember that portion of the cross-examination?
2 A. Well, I do, because I had already been imprisoned. So it was not
3 possible for me to see what was happening in Vrhpolje.
4 Q. Of course, Mr. Karabeg. Now, the next question that was asked:
5 "The persons who told you about what happened, did they tell you that the
6 Muslims arrested 46 Serbian officers in that place?" And your answer
7 was: "Yes." And the next question was: "Did they tell you that the
8 persons who arrested these Serbian officers were armed?" And your answer
9 was: "Yes." And the next question was: "Therefore you aware of the
10 fact that there was fighting going on in Vrhpolje and Hrustovo." And your
11 answer was: "Yes, I am."
12 You recall that aspect of the cross-examination, Mr. Karabeg?
13 A. I do. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Now, moving along to another aspect of the cross-examination --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, may I ask you one thing. On page 6250.
16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Reference is made to the statement about the -- the
18 testimony about murders taking place in Hrustovo and Vrhpolje. That was
19 in chief, wasn't it? So the Chamber might have some difficulties in
20 finding the right time frame for that. So if you would perhaps provide
21 the Chamber with the relevant page or pages where this statement is made,
22 because it's in response of what he testified.
23 MS. LOUKAS: Of course, Your Honour. Yes, I'll attend to that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
25 MS. LOUKAS: I won't be able to attend to that right this moment,
1 but I will.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no.
3 MS. LOUKAS:
4 Q. Now, moving along to page 6274 of the cross-examination, for the
5 Court's benefit. Sorry, no. That's pages 6280.
6 Now, you were also asked some questions there about Mr. Vrkes, and
7 I'll just read you out the questions and answers and then I'll ask you
8 some questions about it, Mr. Karabeg: "Okay. You were talking yesterday
9 about Mr. Vrkes mentioning a couple of names to you, Mr. Brdjanin and
10 Mr. Krajisnik when he talked about the pressures being put on him from
11 Banja Luka for Sanski Most to join the Banja Luka region. You, of course,
12 have no idea whether Mr. Vrkes was telling you the truth; correct?"
13 And your answer was: "Well, let me see. No."
14 Your next question was -- the next question you were asked
15 was: "He may have just done that as an excuse for what he was planning to
16 do regarding joining Sanski Most with that association. In other words,
17 blaming it on someone else besides himself. That's a possibility, isn't
18 it?" And you were answer was, "It's possible. It's possible. It's
20 You recall that aspect of the cross-examination, Mr. Karabeg?
21 A. I do.
22 Q. Yes. And that was, of course, true?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And there was a further short question where I think Mr. Ackerman
25 said: "Now?" And your answer was: "I beg your pardon? I'm conveying to
1 you what he said. I didn't say that I personally spoke to that gentleman
2 but that he said that they were exposed to pressure" -- sorry, I'm going a
3 bit fast. "I beg your pardon. I'm conveying to you what he said. I
4 didn't say that I personally spoke to that gentleman but that he said they
5 were exposed to pressure, so it is possible."
6 That's now been translated to you, Mr. Karabeg?
7 A. What has been translated to me?
8 Q. Your answer.
9 A. I see. Yes. Yes. Yes. I thought that you said that something
10 else has been translated to me.
11 Q. So, of course, you've there fairly conceded that you don't know,
12 of course, whether Mr. Vrkes was telling the truth, and you concede fairly
13 that it's possible he was just using the names as an excuse. That's
14 correct, Mr. Karabeg?
15 A. Yes. Yes.
16 Q. Now --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, before you move to your next subject, on
18 page 6281, third line, "Gentleman" is in the single. It makes more sense
19 to be in the plural. How did you understand this to be, that "Gentleman,"
20 whether it was a person or the two persons mentioned before? Because the
21 names mentioned were Brdjanin and Krajisnik.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, counsel.
23 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry. My microphone's off. Well, Your Honour, I
24 think it's clear that in his last answer to me that he's encapsulating
25 both gentlemen.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear. Please proceed.
2 MS. LOUKAS: That's why I went on to ask the additional question,
3 because I thought it needed some clarification.
4 Q. Now, just a few other matters I'd like to cover with you,
5 Mr. Karabeg. Of course, you gave a rather long statement to the
6 Prosecution back in 1999?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And -- and of course as a lawyer, you're aware of the importance
9 of the statements that are taken by Prosecutors?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you're also aware of course, of the importance of accuracy and
12 honesty in the statements?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And of course of trying to ensure that you put in everything you
15 know about a particular situation?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And of course that statement you gave back in 1999 took about two
18 days, I think, to give.
19 A. I don't know how long it took.
20 Q. All right. So you don't really recall how long it took back in
21 1999? Well, of course the dates on the statement are 24th to the 25th of
22 July, Mr. Karabeg. So you're basically saying you don't know how many
23 hours you spent per day doing the statement?
24 A. I don't know, no, because it was all five years ago.
25 Q. Of course. Now -- and, of course, I think prior to giving that --
1 A. May I just add that I gave it of my own free will, of my own free
3 Q. Of course, Mr. Karabeg, yes. Now -- and I also understand that, I
4 think, back in 1997 you also gave a statement, but that wasn't signed.
5 That was more or less along the lines of an outline of your evidence.
6 That was, I think, taken by the Prosecutor, Ms. Brenda Hollis. Do you
7 recall that?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. Do you remember how long that particular one took, the 1997 one?
10 A. I don't remember.
11 Q. But nevertheless, getting back to your 1999 statement, and in fact
12 any statement you give to a legal authority, you as a lawyer are aware of
13 the importance of telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
14 truth? That basically goes without saying, doesn't it, Mr. Karabeg?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, I think you've still got your statement before
17 you. No, I don't think you have. The statement from 1999 with the
18 paragraphs outlined and numbered. Okay. So, Mr. Karabeg, you're aware of
19 the importance of statements as a lawyer as -- in terms of their purposes
20 for investigations and for finding relevant people responsible. You're
21 aware of all of that, Mr. Karabeg?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. You'd agree with me, Mr. Karabeg, that nowhere in your
24 statement is the name Krajisnik mentioned?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And in fact, if we go specifically to your paragraph 11 -- sorry,
2 paragraph 12 of your statement -- have you got that paragraph before you,
3 Mr. Karabeg?
4 A. Yes, I see that.
5 Q. What you've written there is that: "In early April 1992, Vrkes
6 said in the Assembly sessions that there was a lot of pressure about this
7 matter from the leadership of Banja Luka. He did not mention any names."
8 A. I even think that this might not be correctly translated, because
9 he wouldn't have mentioned Vrkes had that been that, because we were
10 linked with respect to the purchase of an apartment and were supposed to
11 have a meeting. He was buying an apartment from a friend of mine, and I
12 just happened to ask him by and by, "Why are you putting that on the
13 agenda?" And then he happened to mention that. So I said I didn't attach
14 any particular importance to it at the time at all.
15 Q. Yes. But the fact is, Mr. Karabeg, that when you gave your
16 statement, aware as you are of the importance of ensuring all relevant
17 information as a lawyer, what you've got in your statement is that he did
18 not mention any names?
19 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. He did not mention any names in
20 the Municipal Assembly meetings. It doesn't refer to a private
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, I think it would have been more
23 appropriate to say whether Ms. Loukas could further explore under what
24 circumstances he said this and then it would have come out rather than to
25 have a kind of a debate on what happened or not.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, might I be allowed to
2 elaborate? From late March and April 1992, the SDS had previously
3 insisted that the Sanski Most municipality belonged to Republika Srpska
4 and they be joined to the centre region of Banja Luka. The Serbs at the
5 beginning wanted the whole -- the entire municipality to be part of
6 the RS. In early April 1992, Vrkes said in the Assembly sessions that
7 there was a lot of pressure about this matter from the leadership of
8 Banja Luka. He did not mention any names. Nobody ever said he mentioned
9 any names at the Assembly meeting. We were deciding to meet with Vrkes
10 after the Assembly meeting privately, and that's when he said that to me,
11 when he mentioned that. So he didn't mention it at the Assembly session,
12 and this refers to the Assembly session, that last Assembly session.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Although the Chamber would have preferred that this
14 testimony would have been introduced in a different way rather than the
15 way it was done, Ms. Loukas -- yes, Mr. Hannis, you are on your feet.
16 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I apologise, but this
17 specific question and this answer that he just talked about was given in
18 the cross-examination that's been tendered to you in the written form, so
19 I'm not understanding why it was necessary to do it now. Page 6272,
20 lines 14 through 17, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.
22 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
24 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you.
25 Q. Now, getting back --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 MS. LOUKAS:
3 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, I understand that your answer is that what
4 you're stating there in your statement is that he did not mention any
5 names and your explanation is that you're saying he did not mention any
6 names in the Assembly sessions. Is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. But of course, you didn't say that in your statement. You don't
9 say, "He did not mention any names in the Assembly sessions," do you?
10 A. Well, it says so here. "Vrkes said in the Assembly sessions that
11 there was a lot of pressure about this matter from the leadership of
12 Banja Luka. Did he not mention any names." That's what it says, full
13 stop. At the Assembly sessions he would say. At the Assembly sessions he
14 said. That's what it says. So nobody says that he mentioned any names,
15 named any names at the Assembly sessions.
16 Q. Okay. Mr. Karabeg, you've already conceded that you know the
17 importance as a lawyer of putting in everything you know. You agree with
19 A. Let me put it this way: If I were to give statements about what
20 happened and evolved and took place, it would take me half a year to make
21 this statement, not one or two days. And in learning new things, I would
22 always amend and change my statements and add on to them in light of what
23 I learned subsequently. So I'm quite conscious that I have to say the
24 truth. I am fully conscious of the fact that I am here to tell the truth,
25 and I'm fully conscious of where I'm sitting here and now.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I'd rather not have a debate between counsel and the
3 Ms. Loukas, your last question about putting in everything you
4 know, wasn't it still about during the meeting or outside the meeting?
5 I'm not -- it's not perfectly clear to me. That was your question, your
6 last question. Was this still about the issue we discussed before about
7 whether this point about -- well, the -- that it would have been proper to
8 add that he did not mention any names, to add to that that it was not --
9 well, the context is clear enough, I would say, if you would have to -- if
10 you describe an occasion and if you have to repeat in every single
11 sentence that the new sentence relates to the situation you described in
12 the previous sentence, then I would say it would be improper to ask a
13 witness whether this was not a -- neglecting his duty to say everything.
14 So therefore, if that was the issue --
15 MS. LOUKAS: No, that wasn't actually the issue, Your Honour. I'm
16 actually approaching it from a different angle now. If that wasn't
17 apparent from the question, then I'll rephrase it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then please do so.
19 MS. LOUKAS: I note the time, Your Honour. Should I keep --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could finish this one or two questions and
21 then have a break until tomorrow.
22 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Karabeg, you're a lawyer and you know the importance of
24 ensuring that when you give a detailed statement to investigators who are
25 trying to find relevant people, evidence in relation to relevant people
1 who might be responsible, that it's important to include as much as you
2 know. You would fairly have to concede that. That's the case, is it not?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. So when you said in your statement, "He did not mention any
5 names," that of course was the appropriate opportunity to say, "By the
6 way, though, outside the Assembly session he mentioned some names because
7 we had a private conversation." You'd have to fairly concede that as
8 well, would you not, Mr. Karabeg?
9 A. Well, I'm not a robot and remember everything in the most minutest
10 of details and to tell you all that.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I think it's an appropriate
12 juncture at this point.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, do you have any idea of how much
14 time you'd still need tomorrow?
15 MS. LOUKAS: Well, of course it doesn't depend entirely on me,
16 Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm aware of that.
18 MS. LOUKAS: And the witness does tend to answer, as we've seen
19 from his evidence in chief and partly from his cross-examination, in a
20 rather longer fashion than one might expect, but then again we're all
21 lawyers and we understand that tendency. So, Your Honour, I would have
22 thought certainly no longer than an hour as an absolute maximum. And I
23 hope I'm not being too sanguine.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No.
25 Mr. Karabeg, we'll continue tomorrow morning, 9.00, and I take it
1 in the same courtroom, Madam Registrar. Madam Registrar confirms that by
2 nodding, which is a certainty for the Chamber. We would like to see you
3 again. May I again instruct you not to speak with anyone about your
4 testimony already given and still about to be given.
5 Mr. Hannis, any issue you'd like to raise.
6 MR. HANNIS: Just, Your Honour, I would like to advise the Court
7 that both parties outside of court are trying to work on, trying to agree
8 to some things that would shorten the trial or speed the trial, and in
9 connection with that I have been asked to renew my inquiry about
10 scheduling for the week of June the 7th by people who are arranging
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As I told the parties before, the Chamber was
13 unable to give any decision not being informed about any progress made,
14 but the Chamber interpreted the absence of Mr. Stewart as a signal that
15 the parties might meet outside the courtroom.
16 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour's interpretation of signals is finely
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Ms. Loukas.
19 We are adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9.00.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 26th day of May,
22 2004, at 9.00 a.m.