Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3356

 1                       Thursday, 3 June 2004.

 2   [Closed session] [Parts of Closed Session made public by order of Trial Chamber].

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24                           WITNESS:  MILAN BABIC [Resumed]

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]


Page 3376

 1                           Examined by Mr. Tieger:  [Continued]

 2        Q.   Mr. Babic, when we adjourned yesterday you were discussing the

 3     provision of weapons to Serbs in Croatia from authorities in Serbia.  Let

 4     me ask you now if any JNA officials, JNA officers, were involved in the

 5     provision of weapons to Serbs in Croatia.

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And can you tell us of any particular JNA officers or officials

 8     who were involved in the provision of weapons and when that was.

 9        A.   I know about Colonel Dusan Smiljanic, who introduced himself to

10     me as the chief of security of the Zagreb Corps.  This was in late

11     July/early August 1991.

12        Q.   And did Colonel Smiljanic indicate during his introduction his

13     willingness and ability to provide weapons to Serbs in Croatia?

14        A.   Yes, that was his offer.  He was the first one to propose that.

15        Q.   And did Colonel Smiljanic indeed provide such weapons to Serbs

16     after the offer was made?

17        A.   Yes.  I know about at least two or three occasions.

18        Q.   And to whom or to what forces were those weapons provided?

19        A.   I know that they were provided to Serbs around Knin and to the

20     Krajina police.

21        Q.   Did you also visit with the minister of defence in Serbia in

22     connection with the provision of weapons and materiel?

23        A.   Yes, I did.

24        Q.   When did that happen?

25        A.   In September 1991.


Page 3377

 1        Q.   Did you do so on one occasion or more than one occasion?

 2        A.   At least once or twice in September, and later I had other

 3     meetings, but they were for a different reason.

 4        Q.   And in response to your visits, were weapons and military

 5     equipment provided to Serbs in Croatia?

 6        A.   Yes, although I don't know the details.

 7        Q.   Mr. Babic, let me turn now to the issue of training camps where

 8     armed units were trained.  First of all, let me ask you whether or not in

 9     1991 camps were established where armed formations or armed units of

10     Serbs in Croatia were trained.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Where was such a camp or such camps established?

13        A.   I know about the camp near the village of Golubic, near Knin, and

14     also another training camp in a village near Benkovac.  And I also heard

15     about something at Sumarica, in Banija, but I'm not sure exactly what

16     that was.

17        Q.   And during which time period were those camps established?

18        A.   The Golubic camp was established first, in April 1991.  The one

19     in Benkovac I know was established in July, in the summer.  I don't know

20     the exact time period.

21        Q.   Who established the camps?

22        A.   The Serbian state security, along with Martic.

23        Q.   And was there any particular state -- Serbian state security

24     official actively involved or more actively involved in the establishment

25     or direction of the camps?


Page 3378

 1        A.   Yes.  It was Franko Simatovic.

 2        Q.   And I think you indicated earlier that Franko Simatovic was

 3     Jovica Stanisic's subordinate.

 4        A.   That's correct.

 5        Q.   And did you actually have occasion or an opportunity to visit the

 6     camp at Golubic?

 7        A.   Yes, on two occasions, in April and in May 1991.

 8        Q.   And did a particular official escort you to the camps or around

 9     the camp at that time?

10        A.   The first time I was there, the camp was just being established

11     and I was introduced to Captain Dragan as the future chief trainer in the

12     camp.  And in May when I was there, I met Franko Simatovic there, who was

13     the host and the person in charge of the camp, the boss.  He showed me

14     around the camp and told me what was going on.

15        Q.   Do you know Captain Dragan's full name?

16        A.   He never introduced himself to me as such, but later I was told

17     that his name was Dragan Vasiljkovic.  I was told later by others that

18     that was his name.  He always used to introduce himself only as "Captain

19     Dragan."

20        Q.   I'd like to ask you some of the details of what you learned about

21     who attended the camps and what kind of training went on and the degree

22     of organisation.  First of all, can you tell us from where the trainees

23     who attended the camp came.

24        A.   As far as I could see there, or from what I was told, smaller

25     groups of younger people arrived there from the Krajina municipality,


Page 3379

 1     from northern Dalmatia, Lika, Kordun, and Banija.

 2        Q.   And did they come from various municipalities in those areas?

 3        A.   Yes, from several municipalities.

 4        Q.   Did you actually have an opportunity to see some of the files

 5     kept at the training camp in Golubic to determine whether trainees had

 6     come from various municipalities around the area?

 7        A.   Yes.  I was shown the files, because I was interested to see if

 8     there were any people from Knin there, so then they showed me the files

 9     that they were compiling for each municipality separately.  And then they

10     showed me the files for the municipality of Knin.  But I didn't know

11     anybody from the people who were registered there.  I was shown the files

12     by Nikola Manovic.  He was Martic's assistant and he was the one who was

13     maintaining the files.

14        Q.   Were the trainees equipped with weapons and uniforms?

15        A.   Yes, they were in uniforms and they had long-barrelled weapons,

16     rifles.  I was also shown some kind of weapons that had wheels on them. 

17     I don't know.  It was maybe some kind of anti-aircraft weapon that had

18     two or three barrels.  And I was also shown an armoured train which was

19     being constructed by Frenki at the time.

20        Q.   And did he indicate to you for what purpose those weapons were

21     intended or had been used?

22        A.   Yes.  For the units, for the arming of the units.  And as far as

23     the anti-aircraft gun, he said that his people had already used it in

24     Borovo Selo on May 2nd against the Croat police.

25        Q.   Did you learn how -- approximately how long the individual


Page 3380

 1     training periods took and how many trainees attended at any given time?

 2        A.   I think that they were discussing a short period of training;

 3     maybe 10 to 15 days, not longer than that.  The place was able to

 4     accommodate a few dozen people.  I don't know.  Maybe a hundred, two

 5     hundred people.  But this is my estimate.  I was never told exactly the

 6     number.

 7        Q.   And do you know how long the camp at Golubic remained in

 8     operation?

 9        A.   It was in operation I think in August 1991, but I don't know how

10     long it was in operation for.  I can't say that.  Captain Dragan kept a

11     permanent unit there that was under his personal command.  Occasionally,

12     he would move it from the Golubic camp to the Knin fortress, or in some

13     other areas in Krajina.

14        Q.   Who paid for the camps or bore the cost of the camps?

15        A.   The MUP of Serbia.

16        Q.   I believe you mentioned that Captain Dragan was the chief trainer

17     of the camp.  Did he have other trainers who were subordinates to him

18     involved in the training process?

19        A.   Yes.  There were several instructors.  I don't remember their

20     names.  They had nicknames.

21        Q.   And do you know whether or not Captain Dragan was involved in

22     training in camps other than Golubic?

23        A.   I know later, from 1993, about the camp in Bruska, which he

24     managed, and he also commanded one permanent unit there.

25        Q.   Now, the trainees who trained there, did they later become


Page 3381

 1     members of other units such as the police or the TO, or any other

 2     formation?

 3        A.   They were part of the special police, or the so-called volunteer

 4     units.

 5        Q.   And if I heard you correctly in the Serbian, when you refer to

 6     the special police, did you use the term "milicija"?

 7        A.   Yes, it was the milicija of Krajina.  It was the special police,

 8     or Martic's police, as it was also known.

 9        Q.   In addition to the training in weaponry and other physical

10     aspects of military training, was there any indoctrination element to the

11     training at Golubic?

12        A.   Yes.  This was well known and it was something that was talked

13     about.  It was something that was described as brainwashing, which meant

14     that the ideology was promoted there in the sense that they should not

15     belong to any kind of party ideology, they should not follow any

16     particular party, but only the Serbian national interest.  I felt that

17     this was an attempt to gain a distance from the SDS, which was the main

18     party at the time, and an attempt to place the people directly under the

19     control of the Serbian SDS, the Serbian state security.  So the people

20     were very disciplined and they acted as if they had been brainwashed.

21     Their conduct had changed somewhat.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.  Not the SDS, but the

23     Serbian state security.

24             MR. TIEGER:

25        Q.   So these trainees would be within the direction of the parallel


Page 3382

 1     structure, as you described it earlier.

 2        A.   Yes.  These were their formations, the formations of the parallel

 3     structure.

 4        Q.   What was the aim or purpose of training and indoctrinating and

 5     organising these groups under the parallel structure?

 6        A.   In public, they were presented as the armed forces of the

 7     Krajina, and they were quite strongly promoted in the media in that way. 

 8     Captain Dragan himself became a very powerful media figure who promoted

 9     those formations.  The media created this picture of them as an armed

10     force or as an army of the Krajina, in a way, but actually, they were

11     armed formations which were carrying out a certain objective which was

12     set by the state security, and that aim was to carry out provocations --

13     to constantly carry out provocations and to draw in the Yugoslav People's

14     Army first as a force of separation in the conflicts and then later as a

15     force which actually moved over to offensive operations in relation to

16     the Croatian side.

17        Q.   Mr. Babic, in the statement that was marked as an exhibit

18     yesterday, in paragraphs 10 and 11 you provide information about the

19     media campaign that was waged and its effects, referring back to your

20     testimony initially in the Milosevic case about the media campaign in

21     Croatia.  And if I can summarise that quickly, you indicate that the same

22     thing happened in Bosnia, first with an emphasis on the threatened

23     genocide in Croatia against Serbs and then by Muslims and Croats in

24     Bosnia against Serbs, but with even stronger effects.  And you refer to

25     the role of the propaganda and the effort to persuade people that an old


Page 3383

 1     criminal coalition including Croats and Muslims was being brought back to

 2     life; to media stories about Jasenovac and the crimes of World War II and

 3     essentially a campaign that triggered fear, hatred, and a desire for

 4     revenge; and its role as a tool to win support for the options that were

 5     being presented to the Serbian people, and as a precursor to implementing

 6     the approach that Mr. Karadzic described in a meeting with Mr. Milosevic

 7     and you in 1991.  And then in a subsequent paragraph you went on to

 8     describe further misuses of history including the use of the term "Turks"

 9     and its significance.

10             Let me ask you now:  Who was in control of the Serbian media?

11        A.   Slobodan Milosevic, first of all.  It was the media in Serbia and

12     later the media that was created in Republika Srpska, in Pale and in

13     Banja Luka.

14        Q.   And was that control effected, at least in part, by the

15     appointment and removal of directors of media by Mr. Milosevic?

16        A.   Yes.  I knew that.  They were responsible to him.  He appointed

17     them.  Although the formal procedure was different.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I note that on page 13005 through

19     13011, there's further detailed -- in the transcript of the Milosevic

20     case, there's further detailed information about that aspect of control

21     over the media.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  I take it, then, that you tender those pages under

23     Rule 92 bis (D); is that correct?

24             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, it was actually my intention, with the

25     Court's permission, to wait until the conclusion of the examination and


Page 3384

 1     identify various portions that may be useful for the Court.

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. TIEGER:

 4        Q.   Mr. Babic, when did the JNA become involved in combat operations

 5     on a large scale in Croatia?

 6        A.   From August 26, 1991.  The JNA moved to offensive operations.

 7     They had the initiative in combat operations.  Up until that time -- from

 8     March 1991 up until that time, it was a kind of buffer zone between the

 9     warring sides.  That's how they explained it.  But in fact, they were a

10     kind of protection for the Krajina area.

11        Q.   Mr. Babic, in the factual basis that was also marked as an

12     exhibit yesterday, it indicates that following the -- that from August

13     1991, "following the attack on Kijevo, you became aware that the JNA and

14     the parallel structure were not protecting the Serbs in Croatia but were

15     along with local Serb TO forces in the Krajina and Martic's police

16     engaged in a war for territory to create the western borders of a new

17     Serbian state."  It further indicates that you saw that "the creation of

18     a Serbian state would include the forcible, permanent removal of the

19     non-Serb populations from Serb-dominated areas of Croatia through a

20     discriminatory campaign of persecution."

21             Can you tell us how that was accomplished from August 1991.  Was

22     there a particular pattern or particular kind of approach to the actions

23     of these forces in the forcible, permanent removal of the non-Serb

24     populations?

25        A.   Yes.  What you have read just now is what started in August 1991


Page 3385

 1     and lasted until November 1991.  It summarises everything that I saw and

 2     found out.  Excuse me.  The last part of your question?

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, we can either -- it may be more

 4     appropriate at this point to adjourn and pick it up after the recess.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Perhaps the answer would take some time. 

 6     We'll adjourn until 5 minutes to 11.00.

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Stewart, the Chamber has considered during the

10     break in what form to further deal with the matter of protective

11     measures, and the Defence is invited, if it would like to make any

12     further submissions, to do that briefly in writing and we'll, whenever

13     during the break, we'll try to pay attention to it immediately.

14             MR. STEWART:  So may I ask which break Your Honour is referring

15     to?

16             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, the next break, for example, or whatever

17     interrupts the hearings.

18             MR. STEWART:  And may I ask Your Honour when it is suggested that

19     I prepare those submissions in writing in time for the Chamber to

20     consider them during the next break?

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, if you can't do it before the next break,

22     we'll hear from you after the break after that.  We spent a lot of time

23     on the issue.  It's an important issue.  But at the same time, we have to

24     proceed.  The decision stands as it is.  And if there's any further

25     matter to be submitted, we'd rather receive it in writing.


Page 3386

 1             MR. STEWART:  May I make one request, Your Honour, which we

 2     believe is something which in a sense is logically prior.  Leave aside

 3     the question of the announcement.  It is not clear, because I think

 4     that -- I believe that it wasn't actually expressed.  We do not at the

 5     moment know what the basis was of the renewal of the decision.  We do not

 6     know now whether the closed session is continuing on the basis of the

 7     fact that Mr. Babic is giving evidence and the content, and we also do

 8     not know anything -- which we suggest we should at least know -- we do

 9     not know anything about what the Trial Chamber's view is as to the

10     content.  Having regard to the fact, for example, that the whole lot of

11     stuff was given in open session in the Milosevic case.  So if we are to

12     be able to deal with this point at all, may I put it, we have to have

13     something to bite on.  We have to know what, in summary form, no doubt,

14     but we have to know clearly, please, what is the basis of the Trial

15     Chamber's decision because otherwise we can't intelligently and

16     intelligibly deal with the matter.  And we do need to know that, and with

17     respect, Your Honour, we have to know that - may I put it politely this

18     way, that we have to know that urgently so it may be that it's in the

19     course of the next break that then we have to be put in a position to

20     know that before we can then proceed to deal with the matter on our side.

21             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm aware of that and the Chamber will inform

22     you at shortest notice, perhaps within the next 15 minutes.

23             MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


Page 3387

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Page 3388

 1             MR. TIEGER:

 2        Q.   Mr. Babic, just before we adjourned, you had asked for a reminder

 3     of the last part of the question I had posed to you earlier.  That last

 4     part asked whether you could tell us about how -- or if there was any

 5     particular manner in which or pattern to the actions of the forces

 6     involved in the forcible removal of the non-Serb populations.

 7        A.   Yes.  What I saw was repeated.  So based on that, I concluded

 8     that there was a pattern and that things were done in accordance with

 9     that same pattern.  Initially there would be requests to give an

10     ultimatum to Croatian population to move out.  That was done on one

11     occasion.  And most often, it was done without any ultimatum, whereby the

12     forces of Krajina milicija and the TO would provoke the population.  They

13     would be doing that in the territory populated by Croatian population. 

14     Following that, the JNA would get involved in the conflict and start

15     using artillery and heavy weapons and then the Croatian population would

16     be forced to flee.

17             This is how they were expelled, mostly in this way.  The reasons

18     for the involvement of the JNA were often of a different nature as well.

19     Sometimes they would be doing it on their own initiative, and this was

20     the case in the blockade of the barracks, which was also used in order to

21     wage a local war and to move the front line towards the Croatian side.

22             During that operation, Croatian population fled or was expelled.

23        Q.   You made reference earlier to Kijevo, as it was mentioned in the

24     factual basis.  Do you recall where you were on the day that Kijevo was

25     attacked?


Page 3389

 1        A.   I didn't know that it was attacked.  I learned of it later, but

 2     on that day, on that same day.

 3        Q.   Where were you on that day?

 4        A.   With Milosevic.

 5        Q.   And was that in Belgrade?

 6        A.   Yes, in Belgrade.  He invited me.

 7        Q.   Did Mr. Milosevic indicate to you whether he knew that an attack

 8     on Kijevo had taken place or was about to take place?

 9        A.   He let me know that he knew of that.  He said something like: 

10     Hasn't that already been finished there?  First he told me that he would

11     send Frenki back to Krajina because prior to that, I protested and

12     complained, so he pulled Frenki back.  And I think that that was the

13     reason why he called me to the meeting.  And that -- and then he also

14     asked me what was going on around Knin, and then I said that the Croatian

15     police was harassing Serbs.  And I asked him whether the JNA could

16     protect that village in Otisce phoen] as it had done before, whether it

17     could play the role of the buffer.  And he asked me:  Well, hasn't that

18     already been solved?  Based on which I concluded that he was aware of all

19     that.

20             During the meeting, Kijevo was attacked and the JNA was in fact

21     active in that area and moved the front line by some 15 to 20 kilometres. 

22     But it was done in a different way than prior to that, and I learned of

23     it the following day.

24        Q.   When you returned to the area of Knin, did you have an

25     opportunity to observe what had happened in Kijevo?


Page 3390

 1        A.   Yes, I did pass through, because the house where I was born is on

 2     the opposite side.  Therefore, I passed through Kijevo on the following

 3     day.  The village was destroyed.  One could see that there was artillery

 4     fire on the houses, and that area was controlled by the forces of the

 5     9th Corps of the JNA.

 6        Q.   Did you also have an opportunity to see fighting in the

 7     Kostajnica region in September of 1991?

 8        A.   Yes.  I passed through on the opposite side, on the Bosnian side,

 9     and on that occasion I saw across the river explosions around a village

10     near Kostajnica.  I think the name of the village was Kozibrod and I

11     asked the man what it was all about and he said it was the mortars.  110

12     millimetres; that's what he said.  The shells were landing in front of

13     the village, around the village.  I saw that in September of 1991.  They

14     were landing randomly.

15        Q.   And later in November 1991 did you have an opportunity to travel

16     through the area and observe what had happened to Croat villages in the

17     area?

18        A.   Yes.  I passed through and I saw that almost all Croatian

19     villages were destroyed and abandoned.  There were no inhabitants there.

20        Q.   Now, let me ask you at this point about a particular JNA officer.

21     At some point did you become aware that Ratko Mladic had become the

22     commander of the VRS in Bosnia?

23        A.   Yes, in 1992.  I don't know exactly whether it was the spring or

24     the summer.  Perhaps in May.

25        Q.   Were you already familiar with him from Croatia?


Page 3391

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   What was his position in Croatia when you first became familiar

 3     with him?

 4        A.   He was the Chief of Staff of the 9th Corps of the JNA.

 5        Q.   Now, you've spoken about the military actions to forcibly remove

 6     non-Serb populations.  Do you know whether Ratko Mladic was involved in

 7     those military efforts during the course of his service in Croatia?

 8        A.   Yes, I know about military operations that he was in charge of,

 9     whereby Croatian population was expelled.

10        Q.   First can you identify some of the places where that occurred?

11        A.   I can say in general terms that it was the entire area in which

12     the Knin Corp was active, but specifically it was in Kijevo area and then

13     further on towards Sinj; then around Drnis, Sibenik, and Zadar.

14        Q.   You've already indicated that the events in Kijevo took place in

15     August.  Is it correct that the military actions in Sinj took place in

16     September, in Drnis in September, and in Zadar in October?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Did you have an opportunity --

19        A.   I apologise.  On the outskirts of Zadar, it started somewhat

20     earlier, perhaps in September, and then it was around Benkovac and ...

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The witnesses [sic] didn't hear the name of the

22     last place.  Interpreter's correction.

23             MR. TIEGER:

24        Q.   Mr. Babic, you mentioned that on the outskirts of Zadar it

25     started somewhat earlier, perhaps in September and then it was around


Page 3392

 1     Benkovac and another place and the interpreters did not hear the other

 2     location.

 3        A.   In October it was closer to Zadar, and in late September it was

 4     around Obrovac, and also towards Zadar on the other side.  This is the

 5     direction leading to Maslenica.

 6        Q.   With respect to Kijevo, I believe you indicated earlier that an

 7     ultimatum had been given to the villagers to leave, before the artillery

 8     barrage actually forced them to leave.  Is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.  Initially, the ultimatum was issued by Martic, several days

10     before the attack of the JNA artillery.  I personally protested against

11     this, but I was president of the municipality and the prime minister of

12     the government.  However, regardless of my protests, some ten days later,

13     the JNA attack ensued.  Following that, I received the information that

14     milicija, Martic's men, and the local TO also participated in the attack.

15        Q.   And did you actually see Mladic himself in the area during the

16     course of military operations there?

17        A.   Yes.  Two days later.  I think it was on the second day.  On the

18     third day, perhaps.  The second day that I was there.  So that could have

19     been the 28th or the 29th.

20        Q.   With respect to the events in the area of Sinj, did Mladic tell

21     you personally anything about his involvement there?

22        A.   Yes.  These events took place several weeks later, perhaps two

23     weeks.  I'm not sure.  But this was after the events in Kijevo.  Mladic

24     said -- he boasted, in a way -- that he had ordered Mr. Jerko Vukas, who

25     used to be president of Knin municipality a long time ago, and at the


Page 3393

 1     time he was an officer of a Croatian ministry.  Mladic boasted that he

 2     had personally ordered him to remove himself the barricades.  And then

 3     later on Mladic sent the forces of the corps there.  That's what I heard

 4     from him.

 5        Q.   And what did you understand to be the point of ordering the

 6     president of the municipality to personally remove the barricades rather

 7     than simply having soldiers remove the barricades?

 8        A.   Well, he boasted, he bragged about it because I think he wanted

 9     to show just how powerful he was and that he could humiliate a man by

10     forcing him to remove the barricades.  He was quite arrogant.  He

11     displayed a lot of arrogance while telling me about this.

12        Q.   Based on your contact with Mr. Milosevic and your contact with

13     Dr. Karadzic, which we will touch upon in more detail later, do you know

14     whether they were aware of Mladic's role in Croatia?

15        A.   Yes, certainly.

16        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to meet Vojislav Seselj in Croatia?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Are you familiar with the concept or notion of Greater Serbia?

19        A.   Yes.  This was Seselj's political platform.

20        Q.   And is it the same notion or a different notion from the concept

21     advocated by Mr. Milosevic of all Serbs in one state?

22        A.   It's a similar notion.  I couldn't say that it's quite the same. 

23     Seselj was more specific, more precise.

24        Q.   And did he identify the borders of Greater Serbia, the state in

25     which all Serbs should reside?


Page 3394

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Did Mr. Seselj take a position in relation to non-Serbs in the

 3     territory of what he regarded as Greater Serbia?

 4        A.   He considered them to be foreigners, aliens.  Based on what he

 5     was doing, it was clear that he wanted to remove them, at least based on

 6     what he was doing in Vojvodina.  Also based on what I saw as to his

 7     position towards Bosnia.  At the time, he didn't dare travel through

 8     Bosnia, because of what he had said about Muslims.  I can't recall the

 9     specific formulation.  I can't quote his words.

10        Q.   Was he generally known to be someone who favoured steps to remove

11     non-Serbs from the territories of what -- of -- the territories of what

12     was regarded as greater Serbia or of what were considered to be Serbian

13     territory?

14        A.   Could you please repeat the question.

15        Q.   Sure.  I'm sorry.  It did get confusing.

16             Was he generally known as someone who advocated steps to remove

17     non-Serbs from areas considered to be Serbian?

18        A.   He advocated the idea of Greater Serbia, homogenous Serbia. 

19     Based on his words and his deeds, his conduct, it was clear that he had a

20     hostile attitude towards non-Serb population.  At least, that's how I saw

21     him.

22        Q.   Did Mr. Milosevic support Seselj?

23        A.   Yes.  He commended him.  Seselj also supported him.

24        Q.   Did Seselj have volunteers in Croatia, Serbian volunteers in

25     Croatia?


Page 3395

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And did he come to the Krajina to visit his volunteers?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you know how he got there or who facilitated his visit?

 5        A.   He used to come in a helicopter.  Marko Milanovic, the

 6     then-Minister of Defence of Republic of Serbia, facilitated those trips.

 7        Q.   Was that a JNA helicopter?

 8             I'm sorry.  We couldn't hear your answer.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And did you know from Seselj personally that he came to visit his

11     volunteers?

12        A.   Yes.  He told me that personally.

13        Q.   Mr. Babic, in the course of your role as a leader of Krajina

14     Serbs, did you have an opportunity to meet members of the Bosnian Serb

15     leadership, either on a regional, local, or republic level?

16        A.   Yes, I did.

17        Q.   First, can you tell us some of the regional leaders with whom you

18     became acquainted.

19        A.   Andjelko Grahovac, Vojo Kupresanin, Radoslav Brdjanin, Dr. Vukic,

20     Miro Mladjenovic.  Perhaps some others, but I can't recall now.

21        Q.   And which republic-level leaders did you meet and work with?

22        A.   Radovan Karadzic, Momcilo Krajisnik, Biljana Plavsic, Nikola

23     Koljevic, Velibor Ostojic, and some others.

24        Q.   Now, did you have an opportunity to see how the republic-level

25     leaders interacted with each other?


Page 3396

 1        A.   Yes, I did.

 2        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to see how regional leaders

 3     interacted with republic leaders?

 4        A.   I did.

 5        Q.   And did you also have an opportunity to hear from both regional

 6     and republic leaders who they regarded as the most significant figures in

 7     the SDS and the governmental structures of Republika Srpska?

 8        A.   There were four people.  They considered four people as the

 9     leaders:  Krajisnik, Karadzic, Nikola Koljevic, and Biljana Plavsic. 

10     They were the main leaders.

11        Q.   And within that group of four main leaders, were there any

12     individuals in particular who were regarded as the one or two most

13     powerful figures?

14        A.   Momcilo Krajisnik and Radovan Karadzic were considered to be as

15     the most powerful figures.

16        Q.   May I ask you this.  On approximately how many occasions did you

17     have an opportunity to meet with or be with Mr. Krajisnik in the period

18     1991 and 1992?

19        A.   Four times, I think.  Yes.  Four times.

20        Q.   And did you have an opportunity on those occasions - which are

21     identified in more detail in your written statement - to see Mr. Karadzic

22     and Mr. Krajisnik or Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik interacting with each

23     other?

24        A.   Yes.  They were together.

25        Q.   And were those observations consistent with the information you


Page 3397

 1     had gleaned from republic and regional leaders about who the two most

 2     important figures were?

 3        A.   Yes.  And later I also had some insight which confirmed that.

 4        Q.   And by that, are you referring to subsequent contact that is

 5     contact with Mr. Krajisnik or observations of Mr. Krajisnik after 1992,

 6     or are you referring to something else?

 7        A.   Yes.  When I saw him after 1992.

 8        Q.   Now, was Dr. Karadzic the Bosnian Serb leader -- let me as you

 9     this about him.  Approximately how much occasions did you meet with

10     Dr. Karadzic?

11        A.   On several occasions.  More than ten times, but I don't recall

12     quite how many.

13        Q.   And did you also speak to him on the telephone on occasions?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   What was the general nature and purpose of those meetings or

16     phone calls?

17        A.   Mostly I received instructions, advice, information in relation

18     to political objectives and current political developments.

19        Q.   Were Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Milosevic close collaborators?

20        A.   Yes, very close, according to what I saw.

21        Q.   Did the Bosnian Serb leadership share the position of

22     Mr. Milosevic regarding all Serbs in one state?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, at this time I would ask to have not

25     marked but have displayed to the witness an exhibit previously marked


Page 3398

 1     during the course of Mr. Treanor's testimony, although I don't know the

 2     precise number.

 3             JUDGE ORIE:  Well, Mr. Treanor --

 4             MR. TIEGER:  We have copies of the --

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Treanor had quite a number of documents, so

 6     would it be --

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE ORIE:  -- another witness, it would be -- but let's try to

 9     find it.  And may I use the time to give Mr. Stewart the information he

10     urgently needed.

11             Mr. Stewart, you'd like to know more about the position of the

12     Chamber, in view of the earlier --

13             MR. STEWART:  Yes, thank you, Your Honour.  I would.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  At this stage, it's still unclear whether the event

15     in Belgrade, and I'm referring to the event described as having happened

16     on the 5th of May, whether this event was staged to create an atmosphere

17     of intimidation - although it's unclear, it's certainly a possibility -

18     an atmosphere of intimidation which might influence the giving of

19     evidence and also the content of that evidence to be given by Mr. Babic.

20             The fact that in earlier stages, some of the information now

21     protected for at least the near future, may have become known in circles

22     closely following the proceedings does not prevent the Chamber from

23     deeming it appropriate, in view of the interest of the persons concerned

24     and the integrity of the proceedings, to keep it at this moment away from

25     the public, at least until the Chamber has a better insight in the origin


Page 3399

 1     of the 5th of May incident.  The Chamber has taken steps, meanwhile, to

 2     communicate directly with the Victims and Witness Unit in order to keep

 3     informed, to be kept updated on whatever development in the investigation

 4     and the outcome of it.  That's what I would like to tell you at this

 5     moment.

 6             And since we have now found the relevant document, Mr. Tieger,

 7     you may proceed.  And it was binder 6, tab 67 of the Treanor exhibits.

 8             MR. TIEGER:

 9        Q.   Mr. Babic, I'd like you to look at the document in front of you

10     which is an exhibit that the Court has indicated is found at binder 6,

11     tab 67, and is a letter dated December 19, 1991, from the president of

12     the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Momcilo

13     Krajisnik. Are you familiar with that document?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   I had asked you earlier about the objective of all Serbs in one

16     state.  Is this document a reflection of a commonly shared goal of all

17     Serbs in one state?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   In the fourth paragraph, at least in the English translation, the

20     letter reads:  "All Serbs are engaged in a struggle for the same goal

21     under the same banner and we are all convinced of our ultimate victory."

22             What is the goal that is referred to and what is the ultimate

23     victory referred to?

24        A.   The achievement of a state in which all Serbs will live, Serb

25     from Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Croatia.


Page 3400

 1        Q.   And in the second paragraph, the letter also refers to the

 2     verification of the historical right of the Serbian people to live in one

 3     state.  In the event of the dissolution of Yugoslavia and the

 4     independence of various republics including Bosnia, did that mean that

 5     the Serbian people from Bosnia and Herzegovina or from Croatia would

 6     repatriate to Serbia, or did it refer to territories within the republics

 7     of Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina?

 8        A.   It referred to the territories inhabited by Serbs in

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia.

10        Q.   What territory did the Bosnian Serb leadership consider was the

11     historical right of the Serbian people to possess or control?

12        A.   The territory in which the Serbs constituted the majority

13     population at the time, and also the territory in Bosnia and Herzegovina

14     in which Serbs constituted a majority prior to World War II; i.e.,

15     territories where there was a genocide of the Serbian population and in

16     which -- the territories in which the Serb population constituted a

17     minority at the time.

18        Q.   And was this also the view of Mr. Milosevic, as you understood

19     it?

20        A.   Milosevic's position was in two parts: That the republics -- the

21     people constituted a principle, so they had the ability to decide who

22     they wanted to be with.  And the other part was the actual state of

23     affairs.  So it meant the control over territories until the definite

24     solution of the Yugoslav crisis.

25             But I did not hear a specific position from Milosevic about what


Page 3401

 1     these territories are, where the actual state of affairs or the state on

 2     the ground should be maintained.  The principle was to maintain the

 3     actual state as it was in territories which were supposed to remain part

 4     of the state.  Or to put it better:  He agreed with Radovan Karadzic on

 5     his position on the approach to the territories in Bosnia and

 6     Herzegovina.

 7        Q.   Now, you've indicated the view of the Bosnian Serb leadership

 8     that Serbs in Bosnia were entitled historically to territory, both where

 9     they were a majority and where they were presently a minority.  Did you

10     ever hear from a member of the Bosnian Serb leadership how control over

11     those territories, including those on which Serbs were a minority, was to

12     be obtained?

13        A.   Yes, from Radovan Karadzic.

14        Q.   When did you hear that from Mr. Karadzic, from Dr. Karadzic?

15        A.   In July 1991.

16        Q.   Where were you when you heard that?

17        A.   In the office of Slobodan Milosevic, for the first time.  And the

18     second time in Celinac, in Bosnia.

19        Q.   Who was present in the office of Mr. Milosevic in July of 1991,

20     when you heard Dr. Karadzic explain how control was to be obtained?

21        A.   Slobodan Milosevic, Dr. Karadzic and myself.

22        Q.   Who had called that meeting?

23        A.   I was invited by Milosevic.

24        Q.   What did you understand to be the purpose of the meeting?

25        A.   I was told what the purpose of the meeting was.  The purpose was


Page 3402

 1     to prevent the political initiative of myself and the people from Knin

 2     with the people of Banja Luka regarding the unification of the Serbian

 3     region of Krajina and the area of Knin.  So the Banja Luka Krajina and

 4     the Knin area.

 5        Q.   And did both Mr. Milosevic and Dr. Karadzic object to that

 6     political initiative?

 7        A.   Yes, very strongly.

 8        Q.   What was their concern or objection to that?

 9        A.   The initiative was disrupting the plan that they had for Bosnia

10     and Herzegovina.

11        Q.   In what way did the initiative obstruct the plan they had for

12     Bosnia?

13        A.   The initiative implied that the population of the Bosnian

14     Krajina, which was a majority Serb population, decides, based on

15     self-determination, to unite with the Serbs in the Autonomous Region of

16     Krajina.  In that way, their plans were being ruled out and that was for

17     Serbs to take over control of territory in Bosnia and Herzegovina in

18     which Serbs were not a majority.  So the self-determination of the

19     majority, that principle obstructed the implementation of their plan to

20     control territory where Serbs constituted a minority.

21        Q.   What did Dr. Karadzic say about the way that Serbs should proceed

22     to gain control of the territory they considered should be Serbian?

23        A.   He said what he would do.

24        Q.   And can you describe that to the Court, please.  What did he say?

25        A.   First of all, he said that Serbs should not make any moves which


Page 3403

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Page 3404

 1     would present them before the international community as a factor which

 2     caused the crisis and a conflict, but they had to wait for Alija

 3     Izetbegovic to make a wrong political move, and then he said they would

 4     settle accounts with Alija Izetbegovic by expelling the Muslims and

 5     forcing them into the river valleys, and then they would link up the Serb

 6     territories in Bosnia and Herzegovina into one whole.  And he was very

 7     theatrically indicating that he had control over Alija Izetbegovic.

 8        Q.   And how do you mean?  In what way was he theatrically indicating

 9     that?

10        A.   He said he had Alija Izetbegovic in his little pocket and in

11     Celinac, he took the cigar which he took from Slobodan Milosevic and then

12     he put that cigar into his small pocket.  In Celinac, the cigar

13     represented Alija Izetbegovic, which he was putting into his small

14     pocket.  So that was the general idea of that gesture.

15        Q.   Let me return -- before I move on to the meeting in Celinac, let

16     me conclude your discussion of the meeting in Belgrade.  Did Dr. Karadzic

17     indicate whether or not there were any territories he was still uncertain

18     whether or not he would take from -- he or the Bosnian Serbs would take

19     from Muslims?

20        A.   He mentioned Zenica.  He said:  I don't know whether I should

21     take Zenica from them.

22        Q.   Id Mr. Milosevic say anything to you after Dr. Karadzic had

23     described the process that should take place?

24        A.   He said that I shouldn't bother or shouldn't be in Radovan's way.

25        Q.   When did the Celinac meeting take place?


Page 3405

 1        A.   I think it was on the same day, in the evening.

 2        Q.   And what was the purpose of the meeting in Celinac?

 3        A.   The purpose was for Karadzic to discredit me in front of the

 4     people who shared his views in Banja Luka and to present to them his plan

 5     for Bosnia.

 6        Q.   Do you know who organised the meeting?

 7        A.   Yes.  Radoslav Brdjanin.  He was from Celinac, and I think that

 8     was why the meeting was held in Celinac.

 9        Q.   And was Mr. Brdjanin also a top SDS regional leader in the ARK

10     region?

11        A.   Yes.  He was the president of the SDS regional board and he was

12     thought of as Karadzic's man.

13        Q.   Who attended, in general, the meeting in Celinac, and about how

14     large was that meeting?

15        A.   I think there were about 10 or 15 people from Banja Luka and its

16     environs.  They were people from the regional leadership.  I cannot

17     remember exactly who was there.

18        Q.   Can you tell us, please, what happened at that meeting.

19        A.   Basically, Karadzic repeated what he told me at Milosevic's, but

20     he did this in a more theatrical manner.  He was waving his arms about.

21     He was taking Alija out of his pocket.  He lit a cigar.  So he was

22     putting on a performance.  There wasn't a lot of discussion, really,

23     after he finished with his presentation.

24        Q.   So Dr. Karadzic repeated the elements of the plan he had

25     described at the meeting in Belgrade with Mr. Milosevic.


Page 3406

 1        A.   That's correct.  And then he also said that once that was

 2     completed, the Krajina would then be joined to the Serbian territory in

 3     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 4        Q.   Mr. Babic, what was the earliest time or earliest date that you

 5     became aware that members of the Bosnian Serb leadership were discussing

 6     taking control of territories or municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 7        A.   Following the elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina, a few months

 8     after that, I went to Sarajevo in May 1991, to Dr. Karadzic's apartment,

 9     and that is where I noticed that he was considering the establishment of

10     control or authority.  I cannot really say exactly in what way, whether

11     it was where he had a majority as far as political power was concerned or

12     was he considering perhaps embarking on a coalition with some partners in

13     Bosnia.  But I did notice that he was planning something in relation to

14     the police.

15             Also, I knew about the process that was being conducted by the

16     SDS in the political aspect, the creation of associations of

17     municipalities in the area and also the plan that I heard about from

18     Karadzic about joining up all of these different areas.

19        Q.   How did it happen that you travelled to Dr. Karadzic's apartment?

20     What prompted that?

21        A.   I received information from Martic that Jovica Stanisic had sent

22     a message that I should go and see Karadzic in Sarajevo.  He didn't

23     explain why I should do that.

24        Q.   Did you go alone or did you travel with Mr. Martic?

25        A.   Two or three vehicles went.  I took my car.  He took his car.


Page 3407

 1        Q.   And who was present at Dr. Karadzic's apartment when you and

 2     Mr. Martic arrived?

 3        A.   Jovica Stanisic and Velibor Ostojic were there.

 4        Q.   You made a brief reference earlier to Velibor Ostojic.  Can you

 5     tell us, please, who he was.

 6        A.   He was one of the SDS activists, an associate of Karadzic's, and

 7     I think at the time he was Minister of Information in the government of

 8     Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 9        Q.   And what was happening when you arrived, or what happened after

10     you arrived?

11        A.   Well, we came into the apartment.  We were invited to sit down in

12     a corner of the room.  We were given coffee.  And then in the other part

13     of the room, Karadzic and Stanisic were sitting down, looking at the

14     maps.  Ostojic brought in some other maps.  They were analysing the

15     territories of municipalities and the conversation was not intelligible

16     to me, but I understood that it had to do with the police.  Jovica

17     Stanisic was saying that the radio was being amplified so that things

18     would be louder, and I think there was some talk of wire-tapping and so

19     on.  It didn't last very long.

20             And then we were taken to the Deputies Club, the deputies of the

21     SDS.  It was in the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It was a public

22     restaurant.  And that was it.  That was all there was to it.

23             I don't know whether somebody mentioned it or this was a

24     conclusion that I drew.  I can't remember.  Perhaps it was just my

25     impression, but we were there to give a political performance, because


Page 3408

 1     Karadzic needed to appear in public with us.

 2        Q.   And in what way was it helpful for Dr. Karadzic to be seen

 3     publicly with you and Martic?

 4        A.   Well, at the time we had the image of Serbian nationalists.  I

 5     don't know whether he wanted to portray himself as a like-minded person. 

 6     I don't know.  That's my assumption.

 7        Q.   Let me see if we can clarify one reference that you made earlier,

 8     and that was to the fact that a radio was being amplified and there was

 9     talk of wire-tapping and so on.  Does that mean that there was concern

10     about some kind of eavesdropping and someone turned up the radio or

11     suggested turning up the radio to inhibit that, or does it refer to

12     something else?

13        A.   That's precisely what it is.  Stanisic said that the radio should

14     be turned up so that nobody could eavesdrop to what we were saying there.

15     And I think that Ostojic then got up and turned up the radio.

16        Q.   And although you've indicated the difficulty you had in hearing

17     the precise nature of the conversation that was taking place regarding

18     the maps, were you able to see whether the maps -- or hear whether the

19     maps referred to the municipalities within Bosnia and Herzegovina, and if

20     so, approximately how many different ones and in which areas?

21        A.   That was the map of Bosnia and Herzegovina with municipalities

22     marked in different colours.  I couldn't see what it depicted exactly

23     because I was some three to four metres away from it.  I couldn't see

24     precisely what was there.

25        Q.   Mr. Babic, you referred to subsequent -- or to contacts you had


Page 3409

 1     with Mr. Krajisnik after 1992.  Let me ask you if you had an opportunity

 2     to have a conversation with Mr. Krajisnik in January of 1995.

 3        A.   I did.

 4        Q.   What was the occasion for that conversation?

 5        A.   The occasion was the event in Livanjkso Polje and in Dinara,

 6     meaning in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the vicinity of Knin. 

 7     This involved operations carried out by the HVO and Croatia in the

 8     territory of Republika Srpska.  The HVO and the Croatian army were

 9     engaged in an offensive and they were taking up the new territory from

10     which they were bombarding the outskirts of Knin and that area. 

11     Therefore, we asked for a meeting in Pale.  Martic, in fact, did.  And

12     then there was also Rajko Lezajic and myself.  That was the delegation

13     that went to Pale to inquire with the leadership of Republika Srpska as

14     to what their steps would be.

15             Prior to that, I also went to see Slobodan Milosevic to ask him

16     about this, to ask him what was going on.  Milosevic simply told me that

17     he had already ordered Mladic and Martic to stop this.  However, this did

18     not materialise, and following that, we went to Pale.

19        Q.   And how did you happen to have a conversation with Mr. Krajisnik?

20     What was the occasion for that or event for that?

21        A.   Well, after the official meeting.  A dinner was organised for us

22     and I was placed next to Momcilo Krajisnik.  Therefore, we talked during

23     dinner.

24        Q.   And did Mr. Krajisnik speak to you about Sarajevo and, more

25     specifically, about ethnic separation in Sarajevo?


Page 3410

 1        A.   Yes.  He spoke about Serbian Sarajevo.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us what the -- how the conversation began and what

 3     was discussed.

 4        A.   After the conversation ended, I was able to understand the gist

 5     of what he was trying to say.  He was telling me about Sarajevo as a city

 6     where various ethnic communities lived apart from each other, Muslims,

 7     Serbs, and Croats, and so on, and that they managed to separate Serbian

 8     Sarajevo from the other areas and to maintain it under their control.

 9     That was the gist of the conversation.  And this was just an introduction

10     to what he in fact intended to tell me, which was that he, as someone who

11     was born in Sarajevo and who was attached to Serbian Sarajevo, was ready

12     to give up Serbian Sarajevo, and that I should give up Krajina as well. 

13     And then he said:  We have Belgrade for our capital.  And then when I

14     asked him:  Why should I relinquish Krajina?  He said:  So that Americans

15     would give them 6 per cent of the territory of BH more than what the

16     contact group was offering them at the time.

17             So there was a trade-off, a trade-off with territories, and that

18     was the essence of the conversation.  I was astonished upon hearing this

19     and I put an end to the conversation.

20        Q.   And what did you understand him to be suggesting that the Serbs

21     in Croatia should do in exchange for the opportunity of 6 per cent

22     greater territory than the contact group was offering?

23        A.   He didn't say that specifically, but the implication was that the

24     Serbs had to leave the territory.  And in that context, I heard a similar

25     story from Aleksa Buha, minister of foreign affairs of Republika Srpska,


Page 3411

 1     in November of 1994.  I also heard this from various sources.  So this

 2     was an approach which was simply supplemented by Momcilo Krajisnik in his

 3     conversation with me.  This story on division of territories in Bosnia

 4     has been going on since March of 1991, according to what I know, which is

 5     when Milosevic and Tudjman met in Karadjordjevo.  And the story ended in

 6     1995, at least as far as the Serb in SAO Krajina are concerned, with

 7     their plan to relocate Serbs to Kosovo.  So that was in that general

 8     context, and certain steps were taken in order to achieve this.

 9        Q.   Well, Mr. Babic, you've described some of the steps that were

10     taken in Croatia and the pattern of military operations that you had the

11     opportunity to see and learn about.  Was this type of military operation,

12     this type of pattern, restricted to Croatia territories or did you see it

13     repeated in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

14        A.   I saw that and I heard that about that taking place in Bosnia and

15     Herzegovina.

16        Q.   When and where did you see it in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

17        A.   I saw in August, as I was passing through the so-called corridor

18     from Doboj to Bijeljina, as I was travelling to Belgrade to attend the

19     funeral of Dr. Raskovic.  I also saw it later on in Prijedor, in Bosanski

20     Novi.  The consequences of these events.  I also heard from some people

21     about what had happened.

22        Q.   And in general, what were you able to see in those areas,

23     including Prijedor and Bosanski Novi?

24        A.   I saw destroyed Muslim villages without inhabitants.  I saw

25     sights similar to those I saw in Krajina in November of 1991.


Page 3412

 1        Q.   Let me ask you it, since you mentioned the area of the corridor: 

 2     Did the areas you passed and observed this devastation include Sanski

 3     Most?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you also have an opportunity to see what had happened in

 6     areas toward Brcko and Bijeljina or the area around Zvornik, toward

 7     Han Pijesak and Pale?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And was that similar to what you've just described?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I'd like to show a small portion of a

12     video at this time.  I'd also like to advise the Court that we will be

13     finishing the examination-in-chief in this session.

14             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  You'll take considerably less than the six

15     hours you indicated.  The session, you mean this morning's session.

16             MR. TIEGER:  I mean this very session.  Yes, Your Honour.  And I

17     never thought I could be potentially embarrassed for being more efficient

18     than --

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I'm not blaming you, but -- not at all,

20     Mr. Tieger.  Let's first look at the video.  You know that we would have

21     a break from now not later than the next ten minutes, but are you telling

22     me that we don't even need that break?  It's not entirely clear what you

23     mean by "this session."  Until the next break or this morning's session

24     or --

25             MR. TIEGER:  I believe we're going to break next at 12.25 or


Page 3413

 1     12.30; is that correct?

 2             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  12.30 is what I anticipated.  And I anticipate I

 4     will conclude the examination-in-chief by that time.

 5             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now it's clear to me.  Let's first, then, look

 6     at the video.

 7                           [Videotape played]

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, there are two sequences to this video.

 9     The first is for a bit of orientation.

10                           [Videotape played]

11             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honours, this is a video taken along the

12     Prijedor-Banja Luka road in January of 1996 by the Office of the

13     Prosecutor.  And I did not previously ask to have it marked, but I would

14     ask to do so at this point.

15             JUDGE ORIE:  Madam Registrar.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number P156.

17             MR. TIEGER:

18        Q.   Mr. Babic, the footage depicted in that video, is the footage

19     depicted in that video similar to the scenes of destruction that you were

20     describing earlier or is it different in some way you want to indicate?

21        A.   What I saw was very similar.

22        Q.   And did you also travel along the Prijedor-Banja Luka road in

23     1992?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Mr. Babic, did forces of the RSK participate in the fighting in


Page 3414

 1     the military operations in Bosnia-Herzegovina in the summer of 1992?

 2        A.   Yes, they did.

 3        Q.   And where was that?

 4        A.   Along the so-called corridor.

 5        Q.   Posavina corridor?

 6        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 7        Q.   And what was the importance or significance of the corridor for

 8     Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina or Serbs in the Krajina region?

 9        A.   The importance was in linking up the Serbian territories in

10     Bosnian Krajina, SAO Krajina, with Serbia, as well as with the Serbian

11     territories in other parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12        Q.   And which RSK forces participated, or under whose direction?

13        A.   The forces under the command of Milan Martic were the ones that

14     participated, the ones from RSK.  That was a mixture of police and the

15     military.  So those were the armed forces of Krajina.  That's how we

16     could define them.

17        Q.   How did you come to learn that the armed forces of Krajina,

18     including the police and military and those under the command of Milan

19     Martic, were involved in the military operations in the corridor?

20        A.   I heard that they had gone there.  I saw them upon their return. 

21     I heard and I saw that Goran Hadzic, the then-president of the Republic

22     of Serbian Krajina, promoted Martic into the rank of general for his

23     achievements in combat in the corridor.  I also heard from the people

24     about the fighting taking place in the corridor.

25        Q.   And when you say you heard from the people, does that mean from


Page 3415

 1     the people who participated in the fighting?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   In other words, from those who were under Martic's command.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 3416

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11 Pages 3416-3427 redacted. Closed session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 3428

 1     (redacted)

 2     (redacted)

 3     (redacted)

 4     (redacted)

 5     (redacted)

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9     (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted)

12     (redacted)

13     (redacted)

14                           [Open session]

15             JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber has to deliver two decisions.  The first

16     one is in relation to the admission of the Hidic transcript, which has

17     been applied for under Rule 92 bis.  It was an oral application made by

18     the Prosecution pursuant to Rule 92 bis, under (D) which was made in the

19     course of the examination of the witness Ahmet Hidic on the 22nd of

20     April.  The transcript pages are 2544.  We were asked by the Prosecution

21     to admit Hidic's full transcript of testimony in the Brdjanin trial, a

22     testimony that lasted for two days and consumed 260 pages of transcript. 

23     Tentatively, these exhibits already received exhibit numbers P91 and P92. 

24     We at that time reserved our decision on the application because we first

25     had to determine whether the conditions for admission pursuant to Rule 92


Page 3429

 1     bis (D) had been met.

 2             We now have had an opportunity to peruse the two transcripts and

 3     the Chamber is satisfied that the evidence therein goes to proof of

 4     matters other than the acts and conduct of the accused.  It does not

 5     follow, however, that the transcript must be admitted.  And the parties

 6     are well aware of the Chamber's concern to limit the amount of evidence

 7     in this case to that what is necessary for the just and fair resolution

 8     of the issues in this case.

 9             Where a witness comes before the Chamber to give live testimony,

10     the Chamber will be reluctant to admit transcript of testimony by that

11     same witness in prior cases unless the moving party can demonstrate the

12     benefits to all concerned.  Saving courtroom time is the principal such

13     benefit, although it must be clear to both parties and to the Chamber

14     which segments of the proffered transcripts are relevant to this case,

15     and why.  Otherwise, a great deal of the out-of-court time is consumed

16     poring through the material and in an effort to determine what is

17     relevant and what is not and what is merely repetitious of the live

18     testimony.

19             Then in relation to the application in respect of the testimony

20     of Mr. Hidic, the Prosecution has asked for the admission of the whole

21     260 transcript pages and we have found reference to a wide variety of

22     topics and a large number of documents admitted in relation to the

23     testimony of Mr. Hidic.  Therefore, the Prosecution is invited to

24     indicate in the transcripts the precise text for which admission is

25     sought.  This may be done either by highlighting or by the use of shading


Page 3430

 1     or by lining it.  It doesn't mean a lot of writing, but just to indicate

 2     what specific parts are sought to be admitted.  We'd then also like to

 3     receive an indication on the precise paragraph numbers of the indictment

 4     to which each highlighted segment purportedly relates.  And we give the

 5     Prosecution the guidance that repetition should be avoided, perhaps

 6     unnecessary reminding you, but until such time that we have received and

 7     finally have decided on the matter, the documents will retain the

 8     tentative exhibit numbers P91 and P92.

 9             What I just said might serve as guidance for applications of a

10     similar nature in the future for both parties.

11             That's as far as the testimony of Hidic is concerned.  Then we

12     still have to give a decision, and it will be an oral decision, on a

13     written motion by the Prosecution dated the 21st of May, 2004, seeking

14     protective measures for three witnesses.  I do understand that the

15     Defence has not responded, and that is also to say not opposed against

16     granting the motion.  Is that a correct understanding?  There's no

17     opposition from the Defence.

18             MR. STEWART:  I'm informed we have responded.

19             JUDGE ORIE:  Then briefly -- then I -- yes, then you have

20     responded in writing?

21             MR. STEWART:  Apparently, yes.  I say I'm informed because I have

22     absolutely no personal knowledge of this.

23             JUDGE ORIE:  Was that a response in just three short paragraphs,

24     which is in my mind.  No opposition.  Okay.  That's clear, then.  Then,

25     well, whether it was in writing or for other reasons that there's no


Page 3431

 1     objection.  I'll give you the decision.

 2             Pursuant to Article 22 of the Statute and Rule 75(A) of the Rules

 3     of Procedure and Evidence, this Chamber may order appropriate measures

 4     for the protection of witnesses provided that the measures are consistent

 5     with the rights of the accused; and to order such protective measures,

 6     the Chamber must be satisfied that, based on information provided by the

 7     Prosecution, the circumstances justify withholding information from the

 8     public.

 9             In respect of witness 188, (redacted)

10     (redacted)

11     (redacted).  The reasons given by the Prosecution are sufficient

12     to grant the request, the request being that his identity and whereabouts

13     not be revealed to the public and that he be permitted to testify using

14     image and voice distortion.  (redacted)

15     (redacted)

16     (redacted)

17     (redacted).

18             In respect of Witness 144, the Chamber is also satisfied that the

19     protective measures should be granted on the basis of the information

20     given by the Prosecution, the protective measures being that his identity

21     and whereabouts will not be revealed to the public and that the witness

22     may be permitted to testify using image and voice distortion.  And the

23     way to conceal his identity is by using a pseudonym.  I didn't say that

24     in respect of Witness 188, but of course the same technique would be

25     used.


Page 3432

 1             Then finally we have Witness 565.  There also the Chamber is

 2     satisfied with the reasons given by the Prosecution justify the granting

 3     of protective measures.  Therefore, also the Prosecution has requested

 4     that this witness be referred to in public hearings and filings by a

 5     pseudonym being Witness 565, and that his identity and whereabouts not be

 6     revealed to the public, and that the witness be permitted to testify

 7     using image and voice distortion.  These requests are granted, and the

 8     Registrar is invited to convey the content of this decision to the

 9     Victims and Witness Unit.

10             If there's nothing else to be discussed at this moment, I would

11     adjourn.  But I'm not sure that there's nothing left.

12             MR. STEWART:  Just to say, Your Honour, that we have filed a

13     motion.  I will only say that, because it does relate to the closed

14     session matters in some way.  We have filed a motion.  It's a short one. 

15     Your Honours no doubt will receive that through the appropriate channels

16     very shortly.  Just to say that everything I said this morning has to be

17     subject to that motion that we have just filed.

18             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  I take it it will be a confidential motion.

19             MR. STEWART:  Yes, Your Honour.  I think it's [Microphone not

20     activated]

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

22             JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23             MR. STEWART:  Sorry.  We have -- I didn't turn my microphone on.

24     Yes, it is, Your Honour.  It is marked confidential.

25             JUDGE ORIE:  I understand not using the microphone is underlining


Page 3433

 1     that it was confidential.

 2             We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.  Madam Registrar,

 3     in the same courtroom?  In the same courtroom.

 4     (redacted)

 5     (redacted)

 6     (redacted)

 7     (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9             JUDGE ORIE:  You get all information that would result from this

10     morning's session.

11             MR. STEWART:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE ORIE:  As soon as we receive information, and I expect to

13     receive information, I'll instruct our staff to inform the parties.

14             Then finally - and to that extent I'm grateful that you said

15     something, Mr. Stewart - the Chamber will also consider the present

16     situation of negotiations and what would be needed to pursue those, I

17     would rather say, communications between the parties; and if the parties

18     would remain available tomorrow in the afternoon, if needed - I'm saying

19     if needed, we have not made up our mind in that respect - to meet with

20     the Presiding Judge again tomorrow morning, in the afternoon, then please

21     make no travel arrangements for 4.00 sharp.  Keep yourself available.

22             We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, but not after I've done

23     what I have to do.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.32 p.m.

25                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 4th day of June,


Page 3434

 1                           2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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