1 Monday, 30 August 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone, both in the courtroom and

6 those outside the courtroom assisting us to perform our functions.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

9 Momcilo Krajisnik.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Perhaps just after the recess, we start with the appearances of

12 the parties. Mr. Tieger for the Prosecution, that is.

13 MR. TIEGER: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. Alan

14 Tieger and Thomas Hannis on behalf of the Prosecution, assisted by case

15 manager Carmela Javier.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

17 And for the Defence, Ms. Loukas.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.

19 On behalf of the Defence today, I appear with our case manager,

20 Ms. Cmeric, and an intern from the University of Chicago, Mr. Brett Taxin.

21 I would indicate that Mr. Stewart will not be here today. He's attending

22 to other matters at this stage and will be back in court on Wednesday

23 morning.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much for your information.

25 I then would like do make a few observations at this moment.

1 There are still a couple of outstanding issues which need to be decided.

2 That will follow soon, but not at this very moment. Most of the decisions

3 will be given orally.

4 Then I informed the parties that the Chamber has decided that it

5 wants to receive written statements of witnesses, even if they testify

6 viva voce, in order to be better able to exercise its function of control

7 over the proceedings under Rule 90(F).

8 Then the following matter is that the parties should be aware that

9 even if a witness testifies in closed session or under other protective

10 measures, that it is not always necessary to have the exhibits admitted

11 under seal. Sometimes the exhibits are such do not affect the protective

12 measures at all. Therefore, the parties are invited to check on the list

13 of exhibits that are admitted to see whether there are any exhibits that

14 could be unsealed without affecting the protective measures. This in

15 order to preserve the public character of the proceedings to the highest

16 possible level.

17 Then finally I'd like to invite the parties to ask Madam Registrar

18 to provide them with a list of outstanding exhibits, as you may remember

19 that some exhibits are not decided upon, others, even whole series, we

20 decided to deal with them at one moment. For example, I remember Sanski

21 Most. Madam Registrar has prepared a list of outstanding exhibits. If

22 the parties would go through them so that during one of the following days

23 we could easily identify whether there are any objections or not and what

24 could be admitted and what could not be admitted. The list of Prosecution

25 exhibits is 12 pages and 1 page for Defence exhibits still outstanding.

1 I would leave it to that at this moment as far as procedural

2 matters are concerned, and I would like to ask the Prosecution whether it

3 is ready to call its next witness. As far as I'm aware of, Mr. Tieger,

4 there are no protective measures sought for the next witness. That is

5 correct?

6 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, that is correct.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And then your next witness would be Mr. Izet Redzic;

8 is that correct?

9 MR. TIEGER: That is correct.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Madam Usher, would you please escort the

11 witness into the courtroom.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I might indicate that I think there's

13 something that Mr. Krajisnik would like to address the Court in relation

14 to, and on my understanding it's a matter that goes into financial

15 considerations, and of course, all the decisions relating to financial

16 considerations are confidential. So it might be appropriate in those

17 circumstances to deal with that particular issue under closed session.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do agree with you. But perhaps it would be

19 more practical, since we have now asked the witness to enter the

20 courtroom, to do that today, but at a later moment.

21 Could Mr. Krajisnik indicate how much time he would need to

22 address the Court in respect of this matter.

23 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

24 JUDGE ORIE: We did not receive any interpretation. I first

25 thought that I was on the wrong channel, but I'm on channel 4 and do not

1 receive English translation. Yes, the witness may be escorted into the

2 courtroom. And at the same time, I'd like to know what went wrong with

3 the translation.

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, would you please repeat the

6 information you just gave so that we can see whether we now receive

7 translation.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will take no more than 10 to 15

9 minutes altogether.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.

11 Good afternoon. I take it, Mr. Redzic. Mr. Redzic, before

12 testifying, before giving testimony in this Court, the Rules of Procedure

13 and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text will be

15 handed out to you now by the usher. May I invite you to make that solemn

16 declaration.

17 WITNESS: IZET REDZIC

18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

20 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Redzic. Please be seated.

22 You'll first be examined by the Prosecution.

23 Mr. Tieger, it's you who is going to examine the witness.

24 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'll be examined by Mr. Tieger, counsel for

1 the Prosecution. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

2 Examined by Mr. Tieger:

3 Q. Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Good afternoon, Mr. Redzic.

5 A. Good afternoon.

6 Q. You were born and raised in the municipality of Vlasenica; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And what is your educational background, sir?

10 A. I completed secondary school. I trained as an engineer after

11 having completed secondary school.

12 Q. And from 1975 through 1976, you completed your compulsory service

13 in the Yugoslav national army; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Mr. Redzic, let me draw your attention to the multi-party

16 elections of 1990. And let me ask you first, however, to indicate to the

17 Court the ethnic demographic breakdown in Vlasenica in 1990.

18 A. There were 34.817 inhabitants in the municipality of Vlasenica

19 according to the 1991 census. 55.3 per cent were Muslims, 42.5 per cent

20 were Serbs, and 1 per cent were Yugoslavs, 1.1 per cent were the others.

21 And there were 0.01 per cent of Croats.

22 Q. Is it correct that the principal parties contending for electoral

23 posts in Vlasenica in 1990 were the SDA and the SDS?

24 A. Well, the results demonstrate that the two key parties at the

25 elections in the 1990s were the Party of Democratic Action and the Serbian

1 Democratic Party.

2 Q. And is it correct that the results of the election were 27 members

3 elected to parliament for the SDS, 26 for the SDA, and 7 for the united

4 opposition?

5 A. Yes, that's correct. Those were the results after the elections

6 in 1991.

7 Q. As a result of the fact that the SDS won one additional seat

8 compared to the SDA, did the SDS then have the right to make the first

9 selection for positions in the municipality?

10 A. No. The party that had the highest percentage of votes had the

11 right to select one of the most important positions in the municipality of

12 Vlasenica. That was the current practice.

13 Q. And responding to that opportunity, what position within Vlasenica

14 did the SDS select?

15 A. Well, the SDS representatives selected the president of the

16 Assembly, Mr. Stanic.

17 Q. Mr. Stanic's first name?

18 A. Milenko Stanic.

19 Q. And did the SDA then have the right to make the next selection,

20 and did it do so?

21 A. Well, on the basis of the election results, the second-most

22 important position was the president of the Municipal Assembly, and the

23 Party of Democratic Action had the right to select this position. In

24 other words, I was appointed to this position.

25 Q. Mr. Redzic, the translation we received stated that the

1 second-most important position was the president of the Municipal

2 Assembly. I think you indicated earlier that the SDS had already selected

3 the position of president of the Municipal Assembly. Can you clarify that

4 for us, please.

5 A. Well, the key position was naturally the head of the president of

6 the Municipal Assembly, and the second key position was the president of

7 the Executive Board. The SDS took the opportunity to appoint Mr. Stanic.

8 Q. And as I believe you indicated, you assumed the position of

9 president of the Executive Board.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Now, in a statement that was taken in October 1994, Mr. Redzic,

12 you indicated that the Executive Board or Executive Council was

13 responsible for organising and coordinating all economic, financial,

14 political, and administrative activities in the city, in accordance with

15 the state laws, that it reported to the city parliament. Can you tell us

16 what body at the republic level the Executive Board at the municipal level

17 was comparable to?

18 A. Well, the Executive Board in the municipality was a sort of

19 mini-authority in Bosnia-Herzegovina. So it was the government at the

20 level of the municipality. It was a sort of mini-government.

21 Q. And was your position within the municipality then roughly

22 comparable to the position of the Prime Minister or president of the

23 government at the republic level?

24 A. As I have already said, the positions were the same, but the scale

25 was not as large. The government of Bosnia and Herzegovina coordinated

1 work at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina. But my tasks were at the local

2 level, at the level of the Municipal Assembly. I was to do the same sort

3 of things that we were supposed to do on the basis of the law and the

4 constitution.

5 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, I want to take you next to a period in

6 approximately the middle of 1991, but before I do, I want to ask you very

7 quickly about the nature of relations between the two ethnic groups in

8 Vlasenica as you were growing up and up to approximately the time of the

9 multi-party elections in 1990.

10 A. As far as relations between those two groups are concerned, only

11 Muslims and Serbs lived in that territory. There were no problems of a

12 national kind until the break-up of Yugoslavia, or rather, until the

13 conflict in Croatia, which then spread to Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 Q. Now, directing your attention, then, to the period of mid-1991,

15 around the time of the outbreak of the war in Croatia. Did you become

16 aware of any military activity in the area of Vlasenica at that time?

17 A. Well, at the time the conflict was raging in Croatia, in Vlasenica

18 paramilitary units had already been formed. They were located in Milici,

19 and they were the strength of a brigade. Between 1.200 and 1.500 troops

20 were in those brigades.

21 Q. How did the existence of that brigade come to your attention?

22 A. At the time, the brigade wasn't concealed. It wasn't far from the

23 roads. It was at the end of the playground in Milici by the road itself.

24 These troops maltreated pupils, travellers, they then put up barricades.

25 They wore Chetnik insignia, they wore cockades, and they wore things that

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1 instilled fear among the Muslim population.

2 Q. Did you attempt to -- first of all, did you receive complaints or

3 information from citizens at the area of Milici and other parts of

4 Vlasenica concerning this brigade and the activities of the brigade?

5 A. As I have said, the brigade was located in Milici, which is

6 14 kilometres from Vlasenica. Behind Milici there's a large number of

7 large villages with Muslim inhabitants. Each day pupils had to go to

8 Vlasenica. The villagers had to go to work in the municipality and

9 elsewhere, and these are problems that they had to confront. And they

10 would come to see me to talk about these problems, or they would come to

11 see other people if I wasn't there at the time.

12 Q. And how did you attempt to respond to the complaints of the

13 citizens who came to you?

14 A. I tried, together with my colleagues and people from the

15 authorities who belonged to the Serbian people who were representatives of

16 the SDS, to talk to them, and we decided that such things were not needed

17 in our areas because they could only result in more trouble and damages.

18 But I must say that in conversation, they just put lip-service to our

19 decisions, and the situation in the field was absolutely the same.

20 Nothing changed.

21 Q. Were there regular military units or troops in the area of

22 Vlasenica?

23 A. The regular army was in Han Pijesak, 18 kilometres away from

24 Vlasenica. There was nothing in Vlasenica itself.

25 Q. And Han Pijesak is an adjacent municipality; is that right?

1 A. Han Pijesak is 18 kilometres from Vlasenica municipality.

2 Q. Did you make an attempt to contact the regular military -- or

3 authorities from the regular military in an effort to address --

4 MS. LOUKAS: Objection, Your Honour, to leading in this particular

5 area.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

7 MR. TIEGER: I'll be more than happy to try it this way, in that

8 case, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

10 MR. TIEGER:

11 Q. Mr. Redzic, in the statement taken from you in October 1994, you

12 indicated in paragraph 17 that you had several meetings with the commander

13 of the regular military forces in Han Pijesak?

14 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I object to approaching it from that

15 angle as well. Again, it's leading.

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, this is --

17 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just trying to find out -- you objected against

18 the question. Let me first ask the witness. Could you please take your

19 headphones off for a second, but first answer the question: Do you

20 understand or speak any English?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please take your headphones off for a

23 second.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Tieger, the Chamber finds that the very

1 last part of your question was leading to the extent where you said: "In

2 an effort to." So you may ask the witness about whether he attempted to

3 contact the regular military or authorities and then ask him why he did

4 so.

5 Yes, please proceed. Yes.

6 MR. TIEGER:

7 Q. Mr. Redzic, did you make an attempt to contact the regular

8 military authorities in Han Pijesak?

9 A. On several occasions, I held meetings at my initiative with the

10 chief commander of the army and commander of the barracks in Han Pijesak,

11 Milosevic.

12 Q. And what were you hoping to achieve by meeting with the commander,

13 Milosevic?

14 A. I wanted to avoid confusion in Vlasenica. I've already said that

15 the paramilitary units were located in Milici. What I wanted from

16 Commander Milosevic was to ask for something that is provided for by the

17 constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina. If there was something going on

18 in Vlasenica, we could mobilise the Territorial Defence, which was under

19 the authority of the civilians, and this Territorial Defence would have on

20 its strength both Muslims and Serbs who could protect the population in

21 case of incidents. These units could have protected all the citizens,

22 regardless of their faith or ethnic background.

23 Q. Now, just to clarify: Who had the authority or constitutional

24 power to mobilise the Territorial Defence?

25 A. According to the law and constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

1 Territorial Defence and civilian protection are under the authority of the

2 civilian authorities, and it could be mobilised in case of natural

3 disasters or other circumstances, storms, large-scale fires, and also in

4 case of war, they could they could be mobilised by the civilian

5 authorities in order to protect everybody across the board and provide

6 services in case of such large-scale natural disasters.

7 And let me just add to that. In case of a war, these units are

8 subordinated to the military.

9 Q. Can you explain, then, why you went to Commander Milosevic in

10 connection with the mobilisation of the Territorial Defence?

11 A. The reason why I saw Mr. Milosevic was not the fact that I was

12 prevented from doing that by the constitution, but the fact that in 1988

13 and 1989, the JNA had taken all the weapons and all the other materiel and

14 equipment that is regulated by the law as something that the Territorial

15 Defence and civilian protection should have. For that reason, the army

16 had known already a couple of years before that what would happen, and

17 they had removed all the weapons that didn't belong to the JNA but to the

18 municipality of Vlasenica.

19 Q. Before I ask the next question, let me ask you if you know

20 Commander Milosevic's rank at the time.

21 A. He was a colonel, and his deputy, Asim Dzambasovic was also a

22 colonel. And later on, Mr. Milosevic was the commander of Sarajevo

23 Romanija Corps.

24 Q. All right. So you went to see Colonel Milosevic in order to seek

25 the weapons that had been taken from the TO previously in order to make

1 its mobilisation meaningful; is that fair?

2 MS. LOUKAS: Again, Your Honour, I would object to Mr. Tieger

3 putting words into the witness's mouth. I think it's preferable if

4 Mr. Tieger asks the purpose of the meeting as an open question, as opposed

5 to positing the answer.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

7 MR. TIEGER:

8 Q. Mr. Redzic, what did Colonel Milosevic say to you when you sought

9 the weapons that had been removed from the TO previously in order to

10 mobilise the TO?

11 A. Let me clarify: I didn't ask for the weapons from the colonel. I

12 asked for the Territorial Defence to be mobilised in the way it had been

13 organised, and I wanted Mr. Milosevic to have control over the Territorial

14 Defence, and the Territorial Defence to protect all the citizens of

15 Vlasenica municipality. In my conversation with Colonel Milosevic - not

16 only in one, in many of them - I introduced as many people from the Muslim

17 and Serb ranks who belonged to other parties. And the answer was always

18 that a Muslim cannot be given a rifle, because that rifle would be turned

19 against the Serbs, and the Serbs would be shot at from that rifle.

20 Q. Did you tell Colonel Milosevic about the kinds of activities by

21 the paramilitary brigade that had been reported to you by the citizens in

22 the area?

23 A. Mr. Milosevic was already abreast of that. He was aware of the

24 paramilitary units, and he even said that this was necessary, that the

25 Serbs should have the military that would protect them. And even despite

1 the existence of the JNA, he thought that there should also be

2 paramilitaries, and these paramilitaries would later on be responsible for

3 all the rapes and killings and murders and whatever had happened in Bosnia

4 afterwards and that you're all familiar with.

5 Q. And just to clarify that question: Did you relate to Colonel

6 Milosevic the complaints of the local Muslim citizens about the treatment

7 they were receiving from a paramilitary brigade?

8 A. Of course. Of course. That was the very reason why I went to

9 talk to him. I wanted to hear from him what the officers of the JNA

10 thought of that, and we also wanted to ask them to exert their influence

11 on those paramilitaries. At that time, there was already a difference

12 between the regular units of the JNA and the others. Mr. Milosevic made

13 rounds of the paramilitaries in Milici and in other localities. It was

14 not just the case in Vlasenica and in Milici. So most probably, the role

15 and the task of his as an educated officer was to form these paramilitary

16 units.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. Just in relation to the last

19 couple of questions. I think it might be appropriate at this point to

20 direct the witness to actually answer the question that's asked by the

21 Prosecution. The last question was asked twice, and in the response a

22 number of other areas that of course basically went into speculation and

23 probabilities and what have you that weren't in fact directly related to

24 the question asked by Mr. Tieger.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If a witness answers a question and deals with

1 matters which are not exclusively within the framework of the question,

2 it's up to the party examining the witness to see whether it's relevant

3 for its case. It might cover a matter that would have been asked anyhow

4 at a later stage. Of course, if it leads to speculation and to

5 assumptions without a clear basis, then the examining party is under an

6 obligation to clarify what that unexplained statements are based upon in

7 terms of facts. But if a witness seeks a path which is not entirely what

8 was in the question, then it's really up for the party examining the

9 witness to see whether it's of any use to let the witness continue.

10 Please proceed.

11 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour, but I just want to make a marker

12 at this point, because it's quite clear from, in particular, the last two

13 questions that the matters that are gone into are matters going beyond a

14 response to the question and into matters of speculation, and I want to

15 put that marker there.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

18 MR. TIEGER:

19 Q. Did other military leaders or figures visit or make rounds of the

20 paramilitary brigade in Milici?

21 A. Yes. The units located in Milici were visited by the statesmen,

22 such as General Gracanin, who was at the time minister of the interior of

23 Yugoslavia. And then the leading people from the SDS who were down there,

24 unfortunately, during that visit, there was also Mr. Delimustafic,

25 minister of the interior. So there were Karadzic, Biljana Plavsic,

1 Koljevic, and all the others, all the other key figures of the SDS and

2 people who occupied the highest positions in the BiH government at the

3 time.

4 Q. And was this a publicised visit?

5 A. Absolutely. It was broadcast on Bosnian television, on

6 Television Belgrade. It was no secret that there was such a visit.

7 Q. You mentioned General Gracanin who was at the time minister of the

8 interior of Yugoslavia. Were there other high-ranking JNA figures who

9 visited the brigade in Milici?

10 A. General Djurdjevac, General Kukanjac were regular visitors, and

11 there were probably the planners of all that. They were formerly

12 officers, and as far as these military structures are concerned, they were

13 the leaders, I would suggest.

14 Q. Mr. Redzic, do you know whether, in addition to the formation of

15 this paramilitary brigade, whether or not others in Vlasenica were being

16 armed or receiving arms during this time?

17 A. I've mentioned the formation of this brigade in Milici. Much

18 before that, there were smaller units in the villages. They were a bit

19 further away from the roads and from the eyes of the people. But let me

20 just give you this by way of example. In spring 1991, there was a ban on

21 felling for the companies in Vlasenica, because there was already the

22 military there, together with their weapons and equipment, and they did

23 their training there. So even before the brigade in Milici was

24 established, there were smaller units which were located in various

25 villages across forests, and they were far away from the eyes of the

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1 citizens.

2 Q. In addition to these either smaller units or the brigade that was

3 formed in Milici, did you learn whether or not other -- did you learn

4 whether or not Serb civilians were being armed during this period?

5 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I would object again. The Prosecutor

6 has asked the question in relation to arming. It was not answered in the

7 way that Mr. Tieger liked, and now it's being sought to be led, and I

8 object on that basis.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I think there are two issues. First,

10 ethnicity, and second, civilian against military units.

11 Let me ask you the following, Mr. Witness: You told us about

12 paramilitary units, the one you specifically mentioned, smaller ones.

13 Were weapons available only in those military units, or paramilitary

14 units, or would other people have weapons as well?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Generally speaking, the Serbian

16 people were fully armed. I was talking about one bigger and many smaller

17 units. Generally speaking, the Serbs were fully armed. When I made

18 rounds of the villages, of the Serbian villages, together with President

19 Stanic, I would see uniformed people with cockades and automatic rifles

20 that had been given to them by the JNA, also the police. I as the

21 president of the Executive Board received Serbs from the faraway villages.

22 They knew who I was. They addressed me as Mr. Stanic. And they said the

23 Serbs -- the Serbs are giving weapons to the SDS and not to us. My answer

24 was: Once the SDS is provided with weapons, it is your turn next. I did

25 not even tell them I was not Mr. Stanic. I hid that fact because there

1 were things already boiling. I wanted to find out some things, and who

2 better to find things from but from peasants.

3 JUDGE ORIE: In your answer, do you refer to Serbian civilians?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The Serbian civilians were

5 also armed. Everybody was armed.

6 MR. TIEGER:

7 Q. Mr. Redzic, in the answer we received in English, it says, in

8 part: "They knew who I was. They addressed me as Mr. Stanic." Can you

9 clarify that, please. Did the people from the villages who came to see

10 you know who you were and how it came about that they addressed you as

11 Mr. Stanic?

12 A. Those people came from the faraway villages. They never saw me

13 before. They didn't know who I was. They never saw Stanic either. My

14 secretary shared her office with Mr. Stanic's secretary. Whenever

15 Mr. Stanic was absent, the parties came to see me. And that's why they

16 came to me, believing that I was Mr. Stanic. It didn't happen just on one

17 occasion; it happened quite a lot of times that Mr. Stanic was absent,

18 people would be sent to me, and they were under the false impression that

19 I was Mr. Stanic.

20 Q. You stated that the Serbs from these faraway villages told you

21 [Microphone not activated] that the Serbs are giving weapons to the SDS

22 and not to us.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, microphone, please.

24 MR. TIEGER:

25 Q. Mr. Redzic, you stated that the Serbs from those faraway villages

1 told you that the Serbs are giving weapons to the SDS and not to us. Did

2 they tell you who was distributing those weapons?

3 A. Yes. They told me that Rade Bjelanovic, the chief of MUP, gave

4 weapons to the members of the SDS and not to them. My answer to them

5 would be: When all this is over and when they are all armed, then your

6 turn will come, so don't panic. You will get your weapons.

7 Q. Was Rade Bjelanovic a member of SDS?

8 A. Yes. He was one of the leaders of the SDS, and it was the SDS

9 that delegated him as the chief of the Vlasenica MUP.

10 Q. And you may have indicated this earlier, but why did you tell the

11 Serbs who came to see you that when all that was over, then their turn

12 will come, so don't panic, they will get their weapons?

13 A. I wanted to get as much information from the field, from those

14 faraway villages. Had I said anything, the flow of information would have

15 stopped. If Stanic was not there, my secretary would channel all these

16 people to me. And had I revealed my identity to them, then all this

17 information would have stopped. And the best source of information were

18 these people from the faraway villages, who didn't know either Stanic or

19 me. That's why I didn't say anything.

20 Q. Did these people from the faraway villages indicate to you whether

21 anyone other than Rade Bjelanovic or any other group was involved in the

22 distribution of weapons?

23 A. It is only logical that the SDS played a key role in the arming of

24 the Serbian people. Rade Bjelanovic most probably distributed the reserve

25 weapons that the MUP had in their depots. Whether he received any weapons

1 from the JNA, I wouldn't know. But I know that a lot of the weapons in

2 the MUP consisted of Zoljas, mortars, automatic rifles, rifles, and

3 explosive devices. So even if he had distributed only that and nothing

4 else, we would still be talking about huge quantities of ammo.

5 Q. Did the Serbs from these faraway villages who came to see you

6 explain to you why they wanted weapons?

7 A. Well, even when I went to other places with Mr. Stanic, their

8 motto was they would say that the Turks wanted to kill them, how they

9 wanted a Jihad state, et cetera. The inhabitants were frightened. They

10 were terrified. And even those who weren't in favour of weapons had to

11 accept such SDS requests, such behaviour, because of these constant lies.

12 Q. Who was it that the villagers -- the Serb villagers from these --

13 who came to see you were afraid of? Who did they fear wanted to -- who

14 did they understand wanted to kill them?

15 A. Well, they probably had been told that the Muslims wanted to kill

16 them. I spoke to them, asked them whether they lived with Muslim

17 neighbours and they said yes. I asked them whether they had ever had a

18 conflict and they said no. I asked them why they were so afraid now, and

19 they said their leaders had told them that something of the sort would

20 happen. They said that they had no other solution.

21 Q. Did you yourself hear information through the media or any other

22 source indicating that the -- that Serb officials were advising people

23 that the -- that they were in danger from Muslims?

24 A. Well, Mr. Karadzic's address in the Assembly of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina was one of the key conditions. This was indirectly an address

1 in which he said that a people would disappear. And he was of the belief

2 that the Serbs should take up arms, in fact, and get rid of all those who

3 were not Serbs.

4 Q. Let me turn your attention for a moment, Mr. Redzic, to the MUP

5 and to the police force in Vlasenica. First of all, was that comprised of

6 both active professionals and a reserve force?

7 A. There were professionals in the police force up until the time

8 when the conflict in Croatia broke out. Since the situation was becoming

9 increasingly complex, there were incidents, problems throughout the

10 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And the reservists in particular

11 were sent to Okucani, Slavonija, Osijek, Vukovar, so this was one of the

12 preconditions, the fact -- for the fact that the Presidency and the

13 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina decided that the reserve police force

14 should be mobilised in addition to the active police force. They were to

15 take action in the field and protect citizens and their property.

16 Q. Was there a point at which the republic government took steps

17 to -- concerning the composition of the reserve police force?

18 A. Yes. The Presidency and the government took decisions, since the

19 MUP was, in organisational terms, part of the Republic of Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina, and all orders came from above. They were then directed to

21 the municipal level, to police chiefs. They requested that the reserve

22 force should be balanced, or rather, that both parties should be equally

23 represented, both groups should be equally represented. They didn't want

24 the professional force of one ethnic group to be dismissed in favour of

25 another ethnic group. So the reservists were a problem. It was necessary

1 for the number of reservists to correspond to the number of inhabitants.

2 The chief of police never respected this.

3 Q. Was there ever any instruction or directive, to your knowledge, to

4 change the -- from the republic government, to change the ethnic

5 composition of the active or professional force?

6 A. Yes. This was forwarded through the government and the Presidency

7 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. They informed the president of the Assembly

8 and the president of the Executive Committee. And through the minister of

9 the interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the chief of the MUP in the Vlasenica

10 municipality was informed. I personally tried to implement that order,

11 and I spoke to the chief of the MUP, Mr. Rade Bjelanovic. But he never

12 wanted to respect this order, and it's not difficult to figure out why,

13 because we know that the units they had did not suit them. We know that

14 the units that consisted of both Serbs and Muslims did not suit them.

15 Q. Just to clarify: What was the order that you personally tried to

16 implemented and went and spoke to Mr. Bjelanovic about? What did it

17 request?

18 A. Well, this order came from Sarajevo. It requested that reserve

19 police force should be mobilised but on a basis of parity. 50 per cent

20 should be Muslims and 50 per cent should be Serbs. And since I was to be

21 informed about this, as well as Mr. Stanic, I tried to implement this

22 order. Since the situation was becoming increasingly complex, it would be

23 best if there were both Serbs and Muslims in the police force or in the

24 army. This was what I supported. But Mr. Bjelanovic never respected this

25 order. He was never in favour of it.

1 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one question in between. You

2 repeatedly told us that Mr. Bjelanovic did not respect the order. In what

3 way? Were there more Muslims, more -- there were no Croats, as far as I

4 understand. Were there more Serbs in the police forces?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the reserve police force

6 consisted of about 170 members. There were 30 or 40 Muslims in that

7 force. That's as far as the reserve force is concerned. As far as the

8 active force is concerned, there were 34 policemen, 6 of whom were

9 Muslims. And we didn't request that Muslims should be brought after

10 having dismissed Serbs, because we knew what that would have led to. At

11 least this is something that I tried to avoid in the territory of

12 Vlasenica.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

14 MR. TIEGER:

15 Q. Mr. Redzic, you indicated that you knew that the units that

16 consisted of both Serbs and Muslims did not suit Mr. Bjelanovic. What did

17 you mean by that? In what way did those units not suit him?

18 A. The units in which there were Serbs and Croats wouldn't have

19 implemented SDS policies. That is why they avoided forming units that

20 consisted of Serbs and Muslims. We know for what reasons. I don't know

21 if it is necessary to provide further clarifications. Many others have

22 probably spoken about this already.

23 Q. Mr. Redzic, you also indicated that you didn't request that

24 Muslims should be brought after having dismissed Serbs because "we know

25 what that would be led to." What did you fear that would lead to?

1 A. Well, constant -- the constant threats, the encirclement,

2 paramilitary formations, action taken on all sides. There were problems

3 that arose at the time. And to insist at such a time that Serbs be

4 dismissed from the police force and that Muslims be brought in would have

5 been an excellent motive or an excellent pretext for the Serbs -- or not

6 for the Serbs, but rather for the SDA [as interpreted] representatives to

7 take advantage of that issue and to go into action, according to their

8 plan and according to everything that was subsequently done.

9 JUDGE ORIE: May I just seek clarification. It appears in our

10 transcript, Mr. Redzic, that you said the following: "To insist at such a

11 time that Serbs be dismissed from the police force and that Muslims be

12 brought in would have been an excellent motive or an excellent pretext for

13 the Serbs, or not for the Serbs, but rather for the SDA

14 representatives --"

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The SDS. SDS.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much. Please proceed,

17 Mr. Tieger.

18 MR. TIEGER:

19 Q. Mr. Redzic, did the attempt to -- or did the order to balance the

20 reserve force involve the dismissal of any Serb members of the active

21 force?

22 A. The reserve force is an issue. The active force isn't in

23 question. We're talking about the reserve force. These are people who

24 are assigned positions after they have served in the military. They

25 aren't given any sort of compensation. They aren't given a salary or they

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1 aren't provided with any expenses. So this wouldn't have been a threat to

2 any of the Serbs who had already been in the reserve force, but only for

3 security reasons. The only reason was to have security for both ethnic

4 groups living in the territory of the municipality of Vlasenica. It

5 wasn't a matter of salaries, of expenses, of per diems, nothing of this

6 sort for the reserve force. The active police had nothing to do with

7 this, and dismissing people was not the issue in this case.

8 Q. Let me turn to the issue of dismissing people in that case.

9 During the period of late 1991 through mid-1992, were you aware of any

10 dismissals from employment that took place in Vlasenica on an ethnic

11 basis?

12 A. Well, towards the end of 1991, the Serbian directors of companies

13 had already started dismissing Muslims. And on the 15th, or rather, on

14 the 14th of May, there was no one working in an institution of any kind,

15 in companies or state institutions or health institutions. No one who was

16 a Muslim worked in such organisations. So as of the 14th of May, 1991,

17 there wasn't a single Muslim working in any sort of company or institution

18 in the territory of Vlasenica.

19 Q. I'd like to seek a clarification, if I may. In your answer, as it

20 appears in our transcript, it says: "So as of the 14th of May, 1991,

21 there wasn't a single Muslim working in any sort of company or institution

22 in the territory of Vlasenica." Is that date correct?

23 A. That's correct. That's when Boksit, which was a key player in

24 economy, which had over 3.800 employees, on the 14th of May, they said

25 that not a single Muslim should return to work. And if by any chance

1 there were any Muslims still working, these were people who were burying

2 the dead, et cetera.

3 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one additional question, Mr. Redzic.

4 Your previous answer said that: "Towards the end of 1991, Serbian

5 directors of companies had already started dismissing Muslims." And then

6 you continued that: "On the 14th of May," and you later specified the

7 14th of May, 1991, "there wasn't a single Muslim working in any sort of

8 company or institution." How could the Serbian directors start to dismiss

9 Muslims in late 1991 if they already all had gone by the 14th of May,

10 1991?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was an error. By May 1992,

12 no Muslims were working in the territory of the municipality of Vlasenica.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Redzic, let me return momentarily and briefly to the visits

16 you had from Serbs from faraway villages who complained about not

17 receiving arms. Did you bring that information to the attention of any

18 SDS official? Did you complain about it to anyone from the SDS?

19 A. Well, I personally spoke to Mr. Stanic. I spoke to him and I told

20 him about everything that was taking place in those faraway villages.

21 Because what was happening in the nearby was quite clear. It wasn't

22 concealed. All the inhabitants could see this. But as far as these

23 faraway places are concerned, I spoke to Mr. Stanic about what was

24 happening. He was surprised and asked me where I obtained this

25 information from. He said: "You have better information than I do, I as

1 a member, leader of the SDS." We then went to visit these areas, both the

2 Muslim and Serbian villages, and Mr. Stanic had the opportunity, together

3 with me, to see people who had been lined up in companies, who were in

4 uniform. They were wearing cockades, and naturally, they had automatic

5 weapons on them.

6 We also went to places where there were children between 12 and 15

7 years of age. We would meet them on the road. We would get out of the

8 vehicle, and we asked those children what they were doing with these

9 weapons. And the answer was that the Muslims wanted to kill them and that

10 they had to be armed to the teeth.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I would like to give the opportunity, as

12 requested, to Mr. Krajisnik to address the Court. If this would be a

13 suitable moment for you to have not immediately the break, but to stop

14 this part of the examination and continue after the break. If not, please

15 find a moment soon.

16 MR. TIEGER: That's fine, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

18 Mr. Redzic, we'll have a break, but apart from that, we have to

19 deal with a procedural issue as well in closed session. So, therefore,

20 we'd like to see you back in -- depends a bit on how much time it will

21 take, but I think it will be a quarter past 4.00. Yes.

22 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Redzic out of the

23 courtroom.

24 Ms. Loukas, would private session do on the issue Mr. Krajisnik

25 would like to raise?

1 [The witness stands down]

2 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. Private session would be quite

3 adequate. It's just that I understand that part of the matters of

4 Mr. Krajisnik would wish to go into include financial matters, and of

5 course financial matters are of course all subject to confidentiality.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me turn into private session, and the

7 public is already informed that once we have dealt with this issue, we

8 have a break and we'll resume at approximately a quarter past 4.00. We

9 are not yet in private session.

10 [Private session]

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9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Usher, could you escort the witness,

11 Mr. Redzic, into the courtroom. We're in open session again.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Mr. Redzic, before the recess, you spoke about events in Vlasenica

16 and some of the mounting tensions in 1991 and early 1992. Let me turn

17 your attention, if I may, to the beginning of April 1992. And can you

18 give us some understanding of the state of tension or conflict in

19 Vlasenica at that point, shortly before Bosnia and Herzegovina was

20 recognised as an independent republic.

21 A. The situation in Vlasenica, like in other parts of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, was coloured by a lot of armed forces, armoured

23 vehicles which were driving constantly from Milici, Sekovici, to

24 Han Pijesak. And this all gave concern to the Muslim population. Tanks

25 were displaying force. People from the SDS and the leaders of the SDS who

1 were not members of the government constantly threatened and caused

2 incidents. The situation was very bad, and every normal person could see

3 that with all the weapons and artillery which could be seen in Vlasenica,

4 all the armed people carrying arms, shooting during the day and during the

5 night in the town and in other places was nothing else but a prelude to

6 the moment when the worst things would happen, such as killings, rapes,

7 looting, expulsion, and other things that happened later on.

8 The Serbian Democratic Party and the key figures in state

9 institutions, after all the provocations against the Muslim population,

10 started and embarked on a final showdown, and they started forcing

11 Bosniaks to agree to the division of Vlasenica into three parts: The

12 Serbian Vlasenica, the Muslim Vlasenica, and Milici municipality.

13 Q. Did any local SDS official ever tell you or say in your presence

14 what would happen or what was planned if Bosnia and Herzegovina was

15 recognised as sovereign and independent?

16 A. Mr. Stanic and myself participated in meetings with observers

17 every week. On one occasion, a gentleman from the monitoring mission

18 addressed me personally and said to me: "Mr. Redzic, why do you bear with

19 all this humiliation? People are being ill-treated, barricades are being

20 put up, there is shooting going on. Why do you keep quiet?" My answer to

21 him was as follows: "The Muslim people, the Bosniak people, will never

22 wage any wars for any ideals, be it Serbian or Bosniak ideals, or any

23 other ideals." I told him that we were a patient people who would do no

24 harm to anybody.

25 The same gentleman spoke to Mr. Stanic and told him: "Mr. Stanic,

1 your people have arms and force. Why do you not respond to the

2 provocations with your weapons?" He said, Mr. Stanic said: "The moment

3 Bosnia is proclaimed a sovereign state, we will draw up our borders in

4 blood."

5 Unfortunately, this is exactly what happened.

6 Q. Did Mr. Stanic ever tell you or say in your presence where those

7 borders would be and what territory it was anticipated that the Muslims

8 would have?

9 A. Of course, one has to be realistic. Stanic and myself held

10 various conversations and talks, and I asked him to explain things to me,

11 and I asked him: "Even if there was an armed conflict, why should people

12 fare badly?" He told me: "Muslims will be given Tuzla and Zenica, these

13 two enclaves." He told me personally: "Don't go to Sarajevo. There will

14 be a blood battle there."

15 Then I asked him: "Stanic, you have a force at your disposal at

16 the moment. What if the international community turned against you to

17 protect the Muslim people and other innocent people?"

18 He told me: "The international community is lying all the time,

19 and they are saying an entirely different thing to the Serbian people and

20 their leaders."

21 Q. Mr. Redzic, you mentioned earlier the demand to divide the

22 municipality. I'd like to ask you now to briefly look at Exhibit -- or

23 attachment to, in the potential exhibit list, the attachment to the

24 statement, the protocol for division of Vlasenica.

25 MR. TIEGER: And I would ask that that be marked for

1 identification and given an exhibit number, please.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P258.

3 MR. TIEGER:

4 Q. Mr. Redzic, do you recognise that document and can you tell us

5 what it is, please, if you do.

6 A. Yes. I absolutely recognise this document. I happened to bring

7 it with me in my pocket. The same document at the time when we feared for

8 our lives. I didn't hand it in to my secretary for filing. It had

9 remained in my pocket. So this is the last straw, aimed at provoking the

10 Bosniak people to justify the use of force. And this is something that

11 the Bosniaks condemned and proclaimed the cause of all their problems.

12 At the beginning we agreed that there would be seven members, that

13 there would be a team on behalf of the Serbs. There would be seven

14 members, and seven members would be representing the Bosniaks. However,

15 one of the people who were proposed on behalf of the Muslims left the area

16 of Vlasenica, and that's why I asked for one representative of the Serbian

17 team to be excluded. And that's how we ended with six representatives of

18 the Serbs, six representatives of the Muslims, or Bosniaks.

19 Q. Who presented this document to you, Mr. Redzic?

20 A. The negotiators from the ranks of the Serbian people drafted this

21 document and handed a copy to everybody present. And this copy, as I've

22 already told you, I kept in my pocket, by pure chance.

23 Q. How long did the negotiations over the division of Vlasenica go on

24 for?

25 A. From the 30th of March onwards, until the 11th, when it was

1 assigned. Realistically speaking, I did not pay any attention to what

2 would be written, but you can see in this document that members of the SDS

3 and members of the government who were proposed by the SDS marked all the

4 points that would be the division points of Vlasenica into three parts.

5 They had everything prepared in advance. They offered us to put forth our

6 proposal. I refused that. And I told them: "Whatever you draft, I will

7 sign, together with my negotiating team." They had everything prepared in

8 advance.

9 Q. Mr. Redzic, you said that this was the last straw and that you

10 paid little attention to the details, and further, that whatever was

11 drafted, you would sign. Can you explain to the Court why the details of

12 that -- of the division of Vlasenica were not of interest to you in that

13 way.

14 A. There was nothing left to do. Irrespective of everything, people

15 were leaving Vlasenica. They were forced to do that by force, by the

16 paramilitaries, by the soldiers sporting beards, by shooting.

17 Our role, that is, my role, was to just prolong the negotiations

18 in order to enable as many Muslim people to leave Vlasenica during that

19 time. I just didn't want to carry the responsibility for the Muslim

20 victims. I knew that people did not have arms. I knew that Muslims had

21 never been warriors, that they never wanted to oppress anybody.

22 The key thing here is that there was nothing left for us to do in

23 Vlasenica. Every morning -- every minute it could be expected for the

24 units to start moving in from Han Pijesak, Milici, Sekovici and start

25 killing the bare-handed people. My main role was to prolong for as much

1 as I could the negotiations while people were being evacuated towards

2 Kladanj and all the areas where there was a majority Muslim population.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, before you continue, I'm just checking

4 with the third copy we have on our desk. All Judges have been provided

5 with this document. It ends in the original on page 6. At the bottom of

6 page 6, we are in paragraph 5, which reads in English: "As agreed, the

7 municipalities will create conditions," et cetera. But what follows in 6,

8 7, 8, and as far as signatures and names are concerned, the original is

9 incomplete.

10 MR. TIEGER: I'm very sorry, Your Honour. As a matter of

11 temporary expediency --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The same is true in the copy you just gave to

13 the registrar. So that doesn't help us out. None of the five copies I've

14 seen by now in the original has the last -- well, pages, I take it, 7

15 and/or 8. Let's continue at this moment, but could you please take care

16 that during the next break we will be provided with the full copy of the

17 original text.

18 MR. TIEGER: Of course, Your Honour. And if the Court wishes, I

19 have a copy here with page 7. I'd be more than pleased to hand it up

20 momentarily so the Court can at least see the significance.

21 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any question relating to these pages, I

22 would like to receive it now. Otherwise, it will be sufficient to receive

23 it after the break.

24 MR. TIEGER:

25 Q. Mr. Redzic, let me ask you if we can break down into some

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1 components some of the events surrounding the demand for the division of

2 Vlasenica. First of all, was this an initiative by the SDS or the SDA?

3 A. It was an SDS initiative, of course. It's as clear as a bell.

4 Q. Did you and the other members of the negotiating team on the

5 Muslim side regard it as an effort to end the conflict or end the tensions

6 and as something that could render the Muslims safe if it was agreed to?

7 A. It never occurred to us to believe that this would be a solution

8 to the problem. It was an SDS initiative, an initiative of the Serbian

9 people to carry out the last provocation. Because they wanted to divide

10 something that was impossible to divide. How does one divide streets,

11 schools, telephone lines, water pipes? How does one divide things that

12 belong to one urban unit? It's just -- it was just out of the question.

13 If you look at this division and if you look at the boundaries of the

14 newly established municipalities that they had in their heads and that

15 they drafted on somebody else's instructions, you will see that Muslims

16 who would have remained in Vlasenica would need a passport to get from one

17 part to another part of Vlasenica. Because this division would have cut

18 off parts of the town. So this was just stupid, not only for us Muslims,

19 but also for the Serbs. Even people in the negotiating team realised

20 that, but I'm sure that they had their orders from a different level as to

21 what they were supposed to do.

22 So the last thing to do was to complicate things beyond belief in

23 order to draw Bosniaks out of the area. I was somebody who wouldn't allow

24 for any Muslim to react to any events. It was their duty to come to me

25 and leave it to me to try and solve it in a peaceful way, because I knew

1 what lay ahead of these people after all that I had seen in the streets,

2 in the town, in the villages. All that instilled fear amongst people was

3 there. You know, everybody knew what tanks were there for, what automatic

4 rifles are there for. Those were not people who were on their way to go

5 hunting. Those people were determined to destroy everything that was not

6 Serbian.

7 Q. Did any SDS representative tell you what would happen if the

8 Muslims did not agree to the division that was proposed?

9 A. Yes. The most impertinent [as interpreted] person -- there were

10 other Serbs who were wiser and who did not threaten publicly, so the most

11 impertinent person was Mr. Tomislav Savkic, who personally told me and the

12 rest of the negotiating team if we wanted to bypass this negotiation or

13 stall, there are tanks ready to shed blood and to start moving on from

14 Han Pijesak and Milici. My role there was to just prolong this division,

15 not because I had to do that, but I knew that this was their weak point.

16 My stress was always put on the Boksit mine, which is the largest in

17 Europe and the backbone of the Vlasenica economy. I told them: "If we're

18 going to divide the municipality, then you have to bear in mind that this

19 is the area where Muslims lived."

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Redzic, may I direct you to listen carefully to

21 the questions and to focus your answer on what has specifically been

22 asked. The last question was whether any SDS representative told you what

23 would happen if the Muslims did not agree, et cetera. So, because we are

24 under some time restraint, and I also do understand that it raises quite a

25 lot of memories in your mind, but what Mr. Tieger wanted to know is who

1 said what would happen. And if he's interested in further consequences,

2 he'll certainly ask you about it. So may I ask you to really focus on the

3 question asked to you. Yes? Thank you in advance.

4 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

5 MR. TIEGER:

6 Q. Mr. Redzic, you mentioned Mr. Savkic. What was his position with

7 the SDS?

8 A. Mr. Tomislav Savkic was the president of the SDS of Vlasenica

9 municipality, and he was the one who uttered the words that the borders

10 would be drawn up in blood.

11 Q. And what was Mr. Savkic's position on some of the other issues in

12 Vlasenica that you have spoken of? For example, the paramilitary

13 formations or the increasing tensions in the area.

14 A. As ever, his position was that this was a regular force, that the

15 Serbs had the right to have their army, and that in addition to the JNA,

16 they had the right to arm some other units. It was very difficult to talk

17 to him. There were some other Serbs who were more tolerant, and one could

18 speak to them, but not to him.

19 Q. And did Mr. Savkic give speeches intended to encourage other Serbs

20 toward his views?

21 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I would object to this on the basis of

22 leading.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, any response to --

24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I suppose it is possible to go through a

25 series of questions leading up to that information, but I hardly think in

1 this context that this is an improperly leading question. It certainly is

2 one that the witness can answer yes or no without being led to one answer

3 or another.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may answer the question, Witness. So the

5 question was whether Mr. Savkic gave speeches which intended to encourage

6 other Serbs towards his views.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 MR. TIEGER:

9 Q. And can you give us some idea of the nature of those speeches.

10 A. He spoke about Serbs being threatened, that Serbs would be killed,

11 eliminated from Bosnia-Herzegovina, that Muslim Jamahirija would be formed

12 and so on and so forth. He would say everything that would instill fear

13 amongst people. They used words to poison the Serbian people, and I still

14 believe that most of the Serbian population was against the war. However,

15 they used methods to poison their minds. They lied to their people. They

16 told them that there is a threat of their disappearance from the area of

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18 Q. Mr. Redzic, was any SDS republic-level leader or prominent figure

19 present during the course of these negotiations over the division of

20 Vlasenica?

21 A. In my office where the negotiations took place, there was nobody.

22 However, in the room across the hall, where Mr. Milenko Stanic was, there

23 was a large number of Serbs, intellectuals, members of the industry, COs,

24 and amongst them was Mr. Rajko Dukic. He was in Stanic's office. I

25 repeat: He was not in my office, that is, in the office where the

1 negotiations took place.

2 Q. What position did Mr. Dukic hold with the SDS?

3 A. Before the war, he was the president of the Executive Board of the

4 SDS. Later on, I don't know.

5 Q. And do you know whether or not any of the materials that were used

6 during the course of the negotiations, the draft documents, any maps of

7 Vlasenica and so on, were held in Mr. Stanic's office?

8 A. All the paperwork, all the professionals who were dealing with the

9 maps, were in Stanic's office. There were some breaks in our

10 negotiations, the negotiations between the Serbs and the Muslims, and as

11 soon as there was a break, the Serbian negotiations would go to

12 Mr. Stanic's office and the Muslims would remain in the room where the

13 negotiations took place, that is, in my office.

14 Q. The protocol, the document that you have in front of you, makes

15 mention of weapons and turning in weapons. Was there any demand by the

16 SDS for Muslims to turn in weapons?

17 A. Members of the SDS asked Muslims to return their weapons. Because

18 of all that happened in the area, I claim in full responsibility that

19 Muslims had nothing but hunting weapons. But we did not even want to look

20 at this document. It was not important. And let me just draw your

21 attention to the fact that by the law and constitution, we were not well

22 prepared to establish municipalities. Municipalities are formed by the

23 Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is the Assembly that has to establish

24 municipalities after a referendum, because it is required by law that two

25 thirds have to be in favour of the establishment of a new municipality.

1 We, as negotiators, did not have any authority vested in us to

2 form a new municipality whatsoever.

3 Q. When the demand for weapons was made, did you tell Mr. Stanic or

4 the other SDS representatives that Muslims had nothing but hunting

5 weapons?

6 A. Yes, of course. I was even a little provocative. All you can

7 write down here is that the Muslims should return their souls to you. How

8 can they return something that they don't have? All they had were hunting

9 weapons. It wouldn't be a problem to go public and to ask people to

10 return these things.

11 Q. And did Mr. Stanic or the other SDS representatives say anything

12 to you that indicated whether they believed that the Serbs -- that the

13 Muslims had something more than hunting rifles?

14 A. Well, they probably thought that the Muslims had some sort of

15 weapons, but apart from hunting weapons, people had nothing. They weren't

16 in favour of war. There weren't any weapons to be distributed in

17 Vlasenica. I don't know what would have happened if anyone had offered us

18 weapons, offered them weapons. I wouldn't go into that.

19 Q. And did you advise officials outside Vlasenica about the ongoing

20 negotiations?

21 A. Of course. I spoke to the late Alija Izetbegovic, because I knew

22 I was doing something that was against the constitution and against the

23 laws of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I wanted to confer with him so as to

24 avoid suffering the consequences in the future. Perhaps a peaceful

25 solution could be found. In such a case, I would have accepted the

1 responsibility to do something that I wasn't competent for.

2 Mr. Izetbegovic said: "Stall for as long as possible to get the people

3 out." Because the people weren't organised. They didn't have weapons or

4 anything else. They didn't have any possibility of surviving in that

5 territory, given what had happened or was happening to the Muslim and

6 Bosniak population.

7 Q. And how did you and other Muslim officials hope that this crisis

8 would ultimately be resolved? Was there hope that the international

9 community would take steps?

10 A. Well, when these paramilitary institutions were formed by

11 Republika Srpska, we were all participants in that affair. I personally

12 spoke to Mr. Izetbegovic again and I said that it was dangerous, that the

13 situation seemed hopeless for the people. He insisted that we shouldn't

14 panic and said that there shouldn't be any problems caused by Muslims. He

15 said that everything that the Serbian Democratic Party was doing amounted

16 to forming para-institutions, and it's true to say that there was a

17 Republika Srpska, there was a Serbian Assembly, Serbian Autonomous

18 Regions, et cetera, et cetera. Mr. Izetbegovic said that there shouldn't

19 be any problems and that Muslims should not establish a precedent or do

20 something that might serve as a pretext for chaos. And he said that

21 everything that the SDS was doing, he said that the formation of

22 paramilitary institutions, et cetera, he said that the international

23 community would force the Serbs to reverse these acts and to create normal

24 Bosnia which would be the state for all ethnic groups, for the Muslims,

25 for the Bosniaks, for the Croats, and for other people living in its

1 territory.

2 Q. Mr. Redzic, you indicated earlier that the agreement was in fact

3 signed on April 11th. Did you leave the Vlasenica municipality shortly

4 after that time?

5 A. I think it was on the 18th or the 19th of April that I left

6 Vlasenica.

7 Q. Did you speak with Mr. Stanic after the agreement for division was

8 signed but before you left the municipality, about what was happening in

9 the municipality?

10 A. Yes, I did. I phoned Mr. Stanic and said I would come to his

11 flat. He was single at the time, and this is what I did. We sat down,

12 had a cup of coffee and spoke to each other like normal people. I said:

13 "Mr. Stanic, since there's a threat to your people too, from my people,

14 I'd like to tell you what should be done and what is expected." Mr.

15 Stanic on that occasion said: "Redzic, you're in my flat right now, but

16 if they found us here, you'd be killed in the market place, together with

17 me." And this would be for one reason alone -- can I clarify this? I had

18 been accused by a military court of the JNA for having sent back a brigade

19 located in Zaluzani. This was a brigade that was supposed to go to

20 Okucani in Croatia. And indictment was brought against me towards the end

21 of September. It was Article 205, paragraph 1 and 3 of the criminal law

22 of the SFRJ. And from then onwards, it was a question as to whether I

23 would be eliminated or arrested and delivered to the military court in

24 Sarajevo.

25 Q. Mr. Redzic, what did you mean when you said to Mr. Stanic: Since

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1 there's a threat to your people too from my people? What threat were you

2 referring to?

3 A. Well, the destruction of anything -- everything that wasn't

4 Serbian. It's not necessary to be very clever. With events in Croatia,

5 in Zvornik, given the fact that the artillery had opened fire, there were

6 Serb units that were engaged from Vlasenica, Zvornik, Bratunac, et cetera.

7 Mortar shells were falling. The inhabitants of Vlasenica could see all of

8 this, just like myself. So I couldn't expect any sort of joy or

9 happiness. I wanted him to tell me what he realistically expected,

10 because I believe that if someone should go from Vlasenica, this should be

11 the officials from the SDA and certain other individuals. Stanic told

12 me: "Redzic, we need the villagers. We need the workers. Don't worry

13 about them." Because I told him that he would be held responsible in the

14 future. The war would come to an end, the chaos would come to an end, but

15 someone had to be held accountable for the people who had gone missing.

16 The answer was: The Serbs need the villagers and the workers, the Serb

17 state needs them too. Nothing will happen to them.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, the answer is still not entirely clear to

19 me. I don't know whether you are considering the same.

20 But perhaps I could ask you, Mr. Redzic: You said Mr. Stanic --

21 that you said to -- let me just -- you testified that you said to

22 Mr. Stanic that there was a threat for his people as well. Your last

23 answer seems to indicate, but I do not know whether I correctly understood

24 you, is that the threat to the Serbian people would be that they would be

25 held accountable for what would happen. Is that the threat you had in

1 mind, or was there anything else in your mind?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I said if the Serbs were

3 threatened by my people, by the Muslims, in such a case, I would be open

4 and frank. And I would say: Mr. Stanic, what sort of fate will I and my

5 people have, or rather, you and your people have?

6 JUDGE ORIE: So you did not say that there was a threat, but you

7 just suggested what the situation would be if there would be a threat

8 against the Serbian people. Is that a correct understanding?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If the situation had been inverted,

10 if the Serbian people, together with their leaders, were in the situation

11 that the Muslim people and their leaders were in, say if the situation had

12 been the reverse, if the Serbs were threatened by the Muslim people, in

13 such a case, I would have been frank and I would have said what the fate

14 of that people would be. Because I insisted that the people, if

15 necessary, should be evacuated, and if the villagers were to go, then I

16 would tell the people and they should be evacuated towards Kladanj where

17 the Muslims were. But his answer was that the Serbian republic and the

18 Serbs needed the workers and the villagers, and that that category of the

19 population wouldn't have problems of any kind. But we have seen that it

20 is that category of the population that suffered the most.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

22 MR. TIEGER:

23 Q. During the course of the negotiations over the division of

24 Vlasenica, did Mr. Stanic or any of the other SDS representatives indicate

25 to you whether it was their idea to divide the municipality or whether the

1 idea had come from elsewhere?

2 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I would object to the form of this

3 question. The question can be asked in a fashion that does not suggest

4 the possibilities as Mr. Tieger has suggested in his formulation of the

5 question.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

7 MR. TIEGER: Again, Your Honour, I do not --

8 JUDGE ORIE: You find it not --

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied. So, Witness, you may

11 respond to the question, which was whether Mr. Stanic or any of the other

12 SDS representatives indicated to you whether it was their idea to divide

13 the municipality or whether the idea had come from elsewhere.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Stanic told me that there

15 were no more possibilities, and he said that these orders had come from

16 higher up. He didn't say who they had come from, but I assumed who they

17 had come from, from the SDS head office, and that was an end to the

18 matter. Leaders had issued the order and forwarded the order to local

19 levels, to the SDS and municipal organisations, and they forwarded it to

20 the people who were members of the authorities, people who were also from

21 the Serbian Democratic Party.

22 MR. TIEGER:

23 Q. Mr. Redzic, you told us earlier that you left the municipality at

24 some point shortly after the signing of the protocol. Did you stay in

25 contact with people from Vlasenica after you left?

1 A. Well, while the phone lines were still working, I would often

2 speak to Mr. Stanic and some other people, for example, Brano Drakulic. I

3 would speak to them to ask them to provide transport for people who were

4 already moving in the direction of Kladanj. I requested that they help

5 them get to these areas, et cetera.

6 Q. And what response did you get from Mr. Stanic or Mr. Drakulic?

7 A. Since we knew each other, they always said there won't be any

8 problems. We'll do whatever we can. They probably wanted to cleanse the

9 area of the non-Serbian population, and many of my requests were

10 implemented. A lot of them -- a lot of the inhabitants were transported

11 in the direction of Kladanj. That was until all the phone lines, all the

12 channels of communication, were interrupted.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, I sense

15 that at this point the witness should be redirected to actually answer the

16 question, as opposed to adding in probabilities and speculations of the

17 nature that were inserted into that answer.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There's one point of speculation, that is, what

19 they probably wanted to do. Apart from that --

20 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- the question is rather -- the answer is entirely a

22 matter of facts, and of course, the Chamber is aware that what they had in

23 mind, that unless we find further information --

24 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Unless we find further information, that, of course,

1 is not something that we could take into consideration, because it has no

2 factual basis whatsoever. But the remaining part is factual.

3 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour, it is.

4 JUDGE ORIE: But, Mr. Redzic, you will have heard the objection by

5 the Defence. You answered to the question, but you included in your

6 answer what the others probably already had in their minds. That is a

7 rather speculative part of the answer, unless you would have specific

8 facts to your knowledge which would support this opinion. But since you

9 are not asked any further questions until now in this respect, I leave it

10 to that. So would you -- if you answer the question, please stick as good

11 as you can to the facts and leave out speculations on what might have been

12 in whoever's mind.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

14 MR. TIEGER:

15 Q. Mr. Redzic, during this time, did you also, in addition to your

16 contact with Mr. Stanic and Mr. Drakulic by phone, did you also have

17 contact by telephone with Muslims and/or Serbs living in Vlasenica?

18 A. At that time, there were very few Muslims remaining in Vlasenica.

19 We had contact while the channels of communication were working. During

20 that period, I spoke to quite a few Muslims and also to some Serbs who

21 lived in the building. We spoke about what was happening in Vlasenica.

22 But the Muslims were afraid to speak. They were afraid of telephone

23 intercepts. So I could only obtain very little information from them.

24 And the Serbs were also afraid that the phones might be tapped, and they

25 were afraid of the consequences they might have to suffer in the future.

1 Q. And can you give us some idea of the period of time, for how long

2 the telephones remained in service?

3 A. I think it was until about the 15th of June, until the first half

4 of June. That's when it was no longer possible to have telephone

5 conversations or other sorts of conversations.

6 Q. In addition to your telephone contact with people in Vlasenica,

7 did you also have contact with people who fled Vlasenica and came to the

8 area in which you were residing?

9 A. Yes. It was my task and duty to deal with that territory, those

10 parts of the Federation. My task had to do with receiving people expelled

11 from the territory of our municipality. We had to provide them with care

12 and accommodation. Every citizen, every Muslim, or rather, a large number

13 of Muslims, gave statements about everything they had seen in Vlasenica.

14 They described all the events. So we had a very good idea of the

15 situation prevailing in Vlasenica.

16 Q. What did you learn what happened in Vlasenica after you left?

17 A. Well, after leaving Vlasenica, Vlasenica was occupied a few days

18 later, or rather, the forces of the Novi Sad Corps entered Vlasenica

19 between the 21st and 22nd of April.

20 Q. Did the people you talked to about the entry of the Novi Sad Corps

21 indicate to you whether they received information about why the corps had

22 arrived?

23 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to this. Of course,

24 hearsay is acceptable in this Tribunal, but if we're going to move from

25 second -- from first-hand hearsay to second-hand hearsay, people that

1 spoke to the witness, the information they received from others, I think

2 it should be a bit more clearly defined as to what level of hearsay we're

3 going to at this point.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, if you could include to the extent

5 possible, the more details on the sources of information. So if --

6 MR. TIEGER: I'll do that, Your Honour, but I --

7 JUDGE ORIE: If you're asking about the people you talked about,

8 please specify if any specific information comes out of that, but that

9 could be one of the subsequent questions.

10 MR. TIEGER: No. I certainly intended to do that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. TIEGER:

13 Q. Mr. Redzic, did you speak with people who actually spoke with

14 members of the Novi Sad Corps?

15 A. Yes. I spoke with people who had come from Vlasenica, and they

16 told me that soldiers and officers were very tolerant and treated the

17 Muslim population in Vlasenica very fairly. And they told them - and they

18 were surprised and astounded - when soldiers came to Muslim streets and

19 houses, and they had coffee and ate cakes. They told them that the

20 Serbian Democratic Party had requested the corps [Realtime transcript read

21 in error "court"] to go there because between 300 and 350 Serbs had had

22 their throats cut. When they arrived, these people naturally spoke to

23 Serbs and Muslims, and the Serbs told them that there was no incident of

24 any kind, and no murder had been committed, and 300 to 350 Muslims, as

25 said, didn't have their throats cut. So what's important to point out is

1 that when the Novi Sad Corps was there, they behaved in a very fair way,

2 but before they left, the soldiers said: "When we leave Vlasenica, it

3 will be very difficult for you." They told them that they would leave all

4 the weapons and artillery in Vlasenica and that that is when they could

5 expect a catastrophe. They themselves didn't know what sort of scale of

6 conflict to expect.

7 Q. Mr. Redzic, one small point of clarification for the transcript.

8 On page 55, line 7, it indicates: "They told them that the Serbian

9 Democratic Party had requested the court," is what it says in the

10 transcript. Is that -- is it fair to say that what you meant by that was

11 the corps?

12 A. Yes. The corps. It was a slip of the tongue.

13 Q. And, Mr. Redzic, did you further learn from your contacts with

14 refugees who fled the municipality or with people on the telephone what

15 happened to the Muslim community of Vlasenica after that point?

16 A. After the Novi Sad Corps had left, civilians were killed, for

17 example in the village of Pijuci, Durici, Zaklopaca, and in some parts of

18 Vlasenica. There were victims and the killing started. A camp was formed

19 in Vlasenica, the Susica camp.

20 Q. Were you aware at that time whether the same SDS figures who had

21 been in power before you left remained in power in Vlasenica at that time?

22 A. Yes, absolutely. The people who were there before the war broke

23 out continued to hold their positions, and later on they were rewarded and

24 were given positions in Republika Srpska.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to that last question and answer.

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1 Your Honour, I think it's appropriate that it be clarified from whom that

2 information came from.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Of course you could have asked this in

4 cross-examination, but I think there's no point in asking the witness,

5 apart from that it's Prosecution time and not Defence time.

6 But apart from that, could you tell us, Mr. Redzic, who exactly

7 told you that the same persons, the same SDS figures who had been in power

8 before you left remained in power in Vlasenica at that time. Could you

9 tell us who told you.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not difficult. We could

11 receive Serbian television, and we had the opportunity to see who from the

12 SDS was in what position. I'm sure that in Republika Srpska they could

13 receive all of the television of the Federation. So it was the key

14 element that pointed to the fact that all the Serbs from the SDS who were

15 in positions before the war continued to hold either the same positions or

16 higher positions at the levels of Republika Srpska.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Your answer now focuses on the

18 Republika Srpska. The question was about Vlasenica. Did you see -- well,

19 let's say SDS leadership or SDS people in power on television as well,

20 specifically in relation to Vlasenica?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely. Of course. I saw

22 Stanic, I saw Mr. Savkic. All these people could be seen on

23 Republika Srpska television, together with the positions that they held.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm not sure what time the Court wishes

1 to break. I received a note indicating this might be the appropriate

2 time, but I leave that to you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll have a break of some 20 minutes. But

4 could you give us an indication on how much time you would still need for

5 the examination-in-chief.

6 MR. TIEGER: I would imagine we'll be finished in the first 15

7 minutes following the break, roughly.

8 JUDGE ORIE: 15 minutes following the break. And may I take it,

9 Ms. Loukas, that the Defence is ready to start cross-examining the witness

10 if we would -- if that would be in some 40 minutes from now?

11 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. I can indicate just in relation to

12 that, that I can start and go up to a certain point.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 MS. LOUKAS: But there are certain matters that have arisen as a

15 result of the witness's evidence today that require me to -- I will not be

16 in a position to complete my cross-examination today. And I may not, in

17 fact, use up all the time.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we'll then have a break now for 20 minutes,

19 and once Mr. Tieger has finished, you'll start cross-examination. And

20 then you will continue tomorrow. But let's try to keep it in the usual

21 time limits, and that is, it was scheduled for four hours, you take a bit

22 less, and 60 per cent would then -- the time you do not use -- try to use

23 your time as good as you can, because otherwise the bookkeeping is --

24 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, there's just one matter I'd indicate,

25 and it might be appropriate for the witness to the remove his headphones.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we could already ask the witness to

2 leave the courtroom, since we'll have a break anyhow.

3 Mr. Redzic, we'd like to see you back in approximately 20 minutes.

4 Could you please follow the usher. Yes.

5 [The witness stands down]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas.

7 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. There are significant and quite a

8 number of variations in this witness's testimony from his statement, and

9 it means, of course, that I will need the opportunity overnight to go

10 through the transcript. Because there are not one or two. They're a

11 significant number.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course the Chamber has seen the statement,

13 and it would not be appropriate to discuss at this moment what the

14 inconsistencies are. You said there's a considerable number. May I ask

15 you also to keep in mind how considerable the inconsistencies are, apart

16 from the figure.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, indeed, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from the quantity, also look at the quality.

19 MS. LOUKAS: One looks at both quantity and quality, and most

20 importantly at quality.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn for 20 minutes, and we'll restart

22 at five minutes to 6.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 5.36 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

25 [The witness entered court]

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

2 MR. TIEGER:

3 Q. Mr. Mr. Redzic, you mentioned the information that you received

4 about the killings of Muslims and the camp at Susica after you -- after

5 the time that you left Vlasenica. During the course of your discussions

6 with Mr. Stanic or any other SDS official after the time you left

7 Vlasenica, did you ever raise with them the issue of the killings or the

8 camps?

9 A. While the road was open and while I still had an opportunity to

10 talk to Mr. Stanic, Susica did exist, but at that time there was still no

11 killing. It was just a place through which all the inhabitants of

12 Vlasenica had to go, regardless of their age or sex. They had to go

13 through Susica. Some criteria were applied, according to which women and

14 children were transported towards Kladanj and most of the male population

15 remained in the camp, save for some elderly males who were fortunate

16 enough to be transported to Kladanj.

17 Q. And when you were referring to your discussions with Mr. Stanic

18 about providing buses so that Muslims could leave Vlasenica, were you

19 referring to transports so that people who were held in Susica could leave

20 Vlasenica, among other Muslims?

21 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I object to the leading nature of this

22 question. It's quite possible to ask this question without the additional

23 phrase that might go to suggesting what the answer is.

24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 MR. TIEGER: The witness testified that he had discussions about

2 providing transport so the people could leave. He testified about the

3 fact that people were held in the camp. The question is merely whether

4 those two things were linked, and I think that's an entirely fair question

5 that doesn't suggest an answer one way or another.

6 JUDGE ORIE: The issue is whether the transportation was -- or the

7 transport provided, whether it concerned people kept in detention or not

8 in detention, in Susica camp. That's a question that can be put to the

9 question. So the objection is denied.

10 MR. TIEGER:

11 Q. Mr. Redzic, you can answer the question, if you understood it or

12 if you recall it.

13 A. No. Could you please repeat the question.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I'll put the question to you. When you

15 talked about transportation provided for people to leave Vlasenica, was

16 that transportation meant for people that were held in detention or people

17 not held in detention, or both?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said a little while ago was

19 that all the inhabitants from the villages, in view of the fact that the

20 town had already been empty, all those from the villages were brought to

21 Susica, to the camp, and according to some of their criteria, the women

22 and the children were transported to Kladanj with some elderly males. And

23 the rest of the males were kept in the camp, and that's where they stayed.

24 Many of them never arrived to the free territory, and their whereabouts

25 are not known to the very day. Nobody knows where they were killed.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand your answer correctly: I take it

2 that you said that since everyone had to go through Susica camp anyhow,

3 the transportation could only be for those who came from Susica camp,

4 where most of the male persons were kept, apart from the elderly? Is that

5 a correct understanding?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Women and children had to arrive in

7 Susica. Susica was the place which was like a filter for the women and

8 children to be released towards Kladanj, together with some elderly males.

9 The rest of the males were kept there, and most of them never arrived in

10 the territory of the Federation. Most of those males who were kept in

11 Susica.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it doesn't contradict my understanding

13 of your answer.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

15 MR. TIEGER:

16 Q. During your conversations with Mr. Stanic, did he indicate to you

17 whether that situation, whether the detention of people in Susica and the

18 subsequent transport of Muslims outside of Vlasenica, were his idea?

19 A. If you are referring directly to Susica and the males detained

20 there, Mr. Stanic said: If there was an exchange, the Muslim males would

21 be exchanged for the Serbs who are in Federation. However, this never

22 came through, which means that a large number of people who were in Susica

23 were actually killed.

24 Q. And a variation on that question, if I may. Did Mr. Stanic

25 indicate to you whether or not the idea for this exchange was his?

1 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, that question has actually been asked

2 and answered. Of course, Mr. Tieger didn't get the answer he wanted,

3 but --

4 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that the question was

5 asked but was not answered.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Well, indeed.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There was an answer, but the question was not

8 answered. So Mr. Tieger is allowed to put the question again to the

9 witness. And may I direct you, Mr. Redzic, to carefully listen to the

10 question, because the question was whether the situation, whether it was

11 exchange or keeping males or sending women and children elsewhere,

12 together with the elderly, did Mr. Stanic ever tell you whether this was

13 his own idea, to deal with the matter in this way?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Stanic always said that things

15 were no longer in his hands and that they simply had to obey orders from

16 higher levels, and everybody knows what higher levels were. So all the

17 orders were handed down from higher levels to the municipal level, and at

18 the municipal level, these orders were carried out.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

20 MR. TIEGER:

21 Q. Mr. Redzic, you've indicated -- referred, rather, on a couple of

22 occasions now to the higher levels of the SDS and of Republika Srpska.

23 Did you know from your discussions with local SDS officials and from your

24 knowledge of the political scene who the leaders of the SDS were?

25 A. One doesn't have to have a lot of knowledge. It's logical when

1 the paramilitaries were established in Republika Srpska, this was formed

2 by the key figures who were leaders of the SDS and who were at the time

3 amongst the highest ranks of the State organs and Bosnia-Herzegovina. The

4 local politics started with the higher authorities, and it was the task of

5 the local politics to carry out orders. If they refused, they were either

6 removed from the political life or replaced, like anywhere else in the

7 world.

8 Q. And who did you understand --

9 A. Which means that orders came down from certain levels, and those

10 levels were composed of certain people: Karadzic, Krajisnik, the late

11 Koljevic, Mrs. Biljana, and a few other people who were there. They were

12 the creators of Republika Srpska, of its constitution, of its laws. I

13 believe that Serbs are very clever people and that they didn't leave

14 anything to chance. They have all the laws, they have their constitution.

15 I have not studied their constitution or their laws, but one should look

16 at the constitution and the laws of Republika Srpska.

17 Q. Mr. Redzic, within that small group of leaders whom you named,

18 were there any among that group who were regarded, as you understood it,

19 based on your knowledge at the time, as the most important and the most

20 powerful?

21 A. After Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik had the highest position in the

22 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The second-ranking person was filtered

23 according to his merits and appointed to the bodies of

24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. At the time, Mr. Krajisnik was the president of the

25 Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And one cannot say that he was on the

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1 side, that he was an onlooker of the things that were going on at the time

2 and that -- or that they amounted to at the end.

3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'd like to have another item marked for

4 identification.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I would first like to -- Mr. Tieger, you

6 put to the witness a question on orders that came down from the SDS

7 leadership, and the witness told us a lot, but there is not a lot of

8 factual basis for his answers. And in order to make these answers assist

9 the Chamber, I would invite you to see whether there's any specific

10 knowledge on the orders coming down or whether it's just a general

11 impression based on the position of the leadership persons he mentioned.

12 MR. TIEGER:

13 Q. Mr. Redzic, you referred to the top leadership of the SDS and of

14 Republika Srpska, and then you indicated that orders came from the

15 leadership down to the subordinate ranks of the SDS. The Court is asking

16 for whatever information you have beyond any information you may have

17 already provided in the course of your testimony, that indicates, or that

18 causes you to understand that that was the case, that orders were passed

19 down from the top levels of SDS leadership to the lower levels.

20 A. Well, there's subordination everywhere. There's this relation

21 between higher and lower levels. The local leaders shouldn't have taken

22 steps of any kind. They shouldn't have done anything without having

23 received orders from a higher level. Similarly, if I compare the

24 municipality of Vlasenica and my election, a subordinate municipality was

25 not to do anything without consulting with the leaders of Bosnia and

1 Herzegovina, or the Assembly.

2 I'll provide you with an example. For example, if the Dutch

3 started killing the Chinese, who would be held responsible? It would be

4 the Dutch government, not an individual, not the perpetrator of a given

5 crime. It would be the government of the Netherlands that would be held

6 responsible. Similarly, in this system, the leaders in Republika Srpska

7 and people who had been filtered through the SDS, the main people bearing

8 responsibility for the events were there, at the level of the municipality

9 and of local communes.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Just one small point of translation.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MS. LOUKAS: At the beginning of that answer: "Well, there's

13 subordination everywhere." As I understand it from my case manager,

14 Ms. Cmeric, that should be "everywhere in the world."

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, that's how I understood "everywhere" to

16 be. That is, in any place.

17 So I do understand, Mr. Redzic, your answer, but please correct me

18 when I'm wrong, that you say that you concluded from the general

19 hierarchical structure in the government and in organisations, such as the

20 SDS, that it is only possible that that's how the orders came down,

21 without any specific knowledge on specific orders or specific persons

22 giving that orders to the lower levels, but it's on the basis of the

23 general framework that you concluded that this should have been the case.

24 Is that a correct understanding?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if you would like me to

1 provide you with some sort of a written document or something like that,

2 but that was impossible. Orders were secret, and we know how they were

3 forwarded. They didn't arrive in the municipal organ. It wasn't possible

4 for me, for example, to examine such an order. They were forwarded

5 through secret channels. Because with the break-up of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

6 the Serbs wouldn't accept this. So the only form of providing arguments

7 and other relevant documents was via the SDS. They could only be

8 forwarded via the SDS and not via a state institution.

9 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing I was seeking is to find out exactly

10 what the basis of your -- the factual basis of your testimony was. So I

11 do not expect you to produce any secret orders if they existed. Of

12 course, the Chamber fully understands that you couldn't.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. And as indicated earlier, I was about to move on to a document I

16 wanted marked for identification.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 MR. TIEGER: And that is the intercept authentication chart.

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I have in front of me a chart. I have in

21 front of me also a couple of what seem to be transcripts of telephone

22 conversations, and I have a CD. Would you like to deal with them together

23 or to separate them? First just the chart?

24 MR. TIEGER: First the chart, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I'll not even look at the rest. Yes.

1 Madam Registrar, the chart would then get number?

2 THE REGISTRAR: The chart will be Prosecution Exhibit number P259.

3 MR. TIEGER: And if that could be presented to the witness

4 briefly.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

6 MR. TIEGER:

7 Q. Mr. Redzic, is it correct that you were provided with an

8 opportunity to listen to copies of intercepted telephone conversations and

9 indicate whether or not you recognised any of the voices, participants?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And does Prosecution Exhibit number P259 reflect the conversations

12 that you listened to and the voices that you indicated you -- and the

13 names of the persons whose voices you indicated you recognised?

14 A. Yes, it does.

15 Q. Let me ask you to look at that exhibit very quickly. The third

16 intercept listed, indicating a conversation between Rajko Dukic and

17 Tihomir Cavkic, I need to ask you whether you know or knew someone named

18 Tihomir Cavkic and recognised his voice, and if not, why that name is

19 listed here.

20 A. No, I didn't know Tihomir Cavkic. But when he and Rajko Dukic

21 spoke to each other, he introduced himself. But I don't know him

22 personally, and I wouldn't be able to recognise his voice. As to the

23 other conversations, they were clear to me and I could recognise them.

24 Since these are people who always appeared on television, it wasn't

25 difficult for me to recognise them. Some of them I know personally, and I

1 worked with many of them very frequently.

2 Q. And specifically, did you know Mr. Dukic and Mr. Bajagic

3 personally?

4 A. Yes. I knew both of them.

5 Q. And can you tell us who Zvonko Bajagic is and what his position or

6 affiliations were in 1991, 1992?

7 A. Zvonko Bajagic I don't know what party position he held, but I

8 knew him from the time of Kosovo, when a lot of Serbs gathered, when

9 Milosevic spoke there. Mr. Bajagic Zvonko went from Vlasenica on a horse

10 in Serbian uniform. He went there and he represented the Vojvoda, the

11 leader for the Serbs. Unfortunately, having listened to those

12 conversations, I'd like to say that it's regrettable that a semi-literate

13 person forwards information to Mr. Karadzic, forwards lies, in order to

14 provoke conflict in the area of north-eastern Bosnia.

15 Q. And was Mr. Bajagic affiliated with the SDS in the area of

16 Vlasenica in 1991, 1992?

17 A. Yes. He was in the Executive Board, in the Assembly of -- he was

18 in the Executive Board of the SDS in the municipality of Vlasenica.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would also ask that the transcripts

20 and the CD be marked as the A and B versions of this particular exhibit

21 and that they eventually be tendered together.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

23 THE REGISTRAR: The CD of intercepted conversations will be

24 Prosecution Exhibit number P259A, and the transcripts P259B and P259B.1.

25 JUDGE ORIE: So we take all the five transcripts together.

1 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no additional

2 questions.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have one. Mr. Tieger, you provided to us in

4 259 a transcript of a telephone intercept. Is there any clue about the

5 date of that first transcript? All the others are provided with a date.

6 The first one is not.

7 MR. TIEGER: There is no clue available at counsel table at the

8 moment, and I would not be able to illuminate that further without

9 inquiring after court. But I would be happy to do so.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'd like to hear from you, because you can

11 understand that relevance is also depending on the exact moment in time.

12 Yes, thank you, Mr. Tieger.

13 Mr. Redzic, you'll now be examined by Ms. Loukas, counsel for the

14 Defence.

15 Ms. Loukas, please proceed.

16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. There's just a brief

17 matter that I should cover in private session prior to my commencement of

18 the cross-examination.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it a matter concerning the witness or is it

20 a matter --

21 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: No. So would it be preferable to ask the witness --

23 does he have to leave the court or can he take his headphones off? Would

24 that be sufficient?

25 MS. LOUKAS: I'm happy for just the headphones to be taken off,

1 Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we turn into private session. And could

3 you please take your earphones off for a second.

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3 [Open session]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Redzic, thank you for your patience. You'll now

6 be cross-examined by Ms. Loukas.

7 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Redzic.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, as president of the Executive Board at the time

11 in Vlasenica, you, of course, had an understanding of the politics of the

12 time; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And I think that you've given evidence today that on at least two

15 occasions you'd spoken to Mr. Izetbegovic. Correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, just in relation to this question of the division of the

18 municipality that you've spoken of today in your evidence, I just want to

19 ask you some questions going for context in that area. Do you understand?

20 A. I understand.

21 Q. Now, you've spoken about these negotiations proceeding, as I

22 understand it, from late March through the early part of April 1992;

23 correct?

24 A. The 11th. The signature was on the 11th.

25 Q. 11th of April, yes. So just in relation to the context in which

1 this was occurring, you, of course, are aware of the negotiations that

2 were going on in the international sphere under the auspices of the

3 European Community in relation to the diplomat Mr. Cutilheiro?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And in about mid-February, the international conference on

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina met in Sarajevo, and there was some -- negotiations

7 were conducted; correct?

8 A. Well, probably. That was higher-level politics. But let's say

9 that that was the case.

10 Q. Sure. And of course, these were matters that were covered in

11 newspapers and of course in television coverage, of course? I don't think

12 there was a translation, but I think I heard the word "da"; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And these negotiations, of course, continued through March, and

15 the leaders of the three national parties in Bosnia actually all signed a

16 declaration on the principles of a new constitutional order for

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina. You recall that, don't you?

18 A. No. If you are referring to the new organisation -- I don't know

19 what you're referring to. More specifically. Can you be more specific?

20 Q. Certainly. I'm referring again to the negotiations surrounding

21 the Cutileiro plan. You knew about the Cutileiro plan, of course?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. That was just a fancy name that they had for it at the time, but

24 I'll stick to Cutileiro plan, okay? Okay. Now, part of that was that

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina would remain within its borders; correct?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. As a single state?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. And with three constituent units based on the national principle;

5 correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And the three constituent units, of course, being the Bosniaks,

8 the Bosnian Muslims, the Bosnian Serbs, the Bosnian Croats; correct?

9 A. I'm not absolutely sure. I was not a member of the higher

10 politics. I did follow the events. Those were negotiations. Let's be

11 clear on that. They were negotiations.

12 Q. And the idea being that principles were adopted; correct? You'd

13 obviously be aware of that.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And it was agreed in March that a Working Group would be set up to

16 define the territories of the three different communities in

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?

18 A. Yes. Yes.

19 Q. And some of the principles dealt with in terms of this Cutileiro

20 plan were that these maps of the constituent units would be based on

21 national principles, economic principles, geographical principles, and

22 also on historic, religious, cultural, educational, and transport and

23 communication criteria?

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour.

1 JUDGE ORIE: You're on your feet.

2 MR. TIEGER: Yes. It's not entirely clear the extent to which

3 this witness is familiar with the terms of the Cutileiro plan, but even if

4 he were reasonably familiar with it, I can't see the point of a quiz on

5 the content of the Cutileiro plan. If he's going to be asked about the

6 plan, then let's have it in front of him. If we're leading to a

7 particular point, then I think it might be more efficient to move past a

8 recitation of all the details of the plan, which frankly, this witness

9 should not be expected to know.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, would you like to answer, the witness

11 still having his earphones on, or would you rather ask me to invite him to

12 take them off?

13 MS. LOUKAS: It's probably preferable if the witness does take his

14 headphones off, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you to take your headphones off for a

16 second. Thank you.

17 Ms. Loukas.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. Just in relation to this, I mean,

19 I'm just setting some brief questions here, setting the political context

20 in relation to which we're dealing with a particular municipality and a

21 particular division that occurred within a municipality, and also, this

22 witness's awareness of the negotiations that were going on in the

23 international community and the local community's awareness of what was

24 going on and what had been projected is important.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just try to understand you. I do

1 understand that you're seeking a parallel. That's correct?

2 MS. LOUKAS: Seeking a parallel?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Parallel between division, geographical or

4 territorial division on the level of negotiations at a higher level and on

5 the local level. I think that --

6 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour. What I'm dealing with is setting

7 the matters in a context, the fact that people throughout

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina were aware of these negotiations that were going on at

9 the international level and within a particular municipality they would

10 have been aware of that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What's the relevance of that awareness?

12 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, that -- and I don't like to

13 forecast where I'm going in this way.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 MS. LOUKAS: I don't know that that's entirely appropriate. But,

16 Your Honour, the relevance is that whilst all of this was going on in the

17 international arena, it's quite clear that local communities would

18 undertake certain activities of their own volition, being aware of this

19 broader international context.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what I understand to be the parallel

21 situation on the different levels. Of course, if you think that it's

22 important to establish, but apart from to what extent the situation at the

23 local level, well, had some resemblance with what happened on another

24 level, of course, it's also important to see what the difference is. For

25 example, I do not remember that any negotiations on the Cutileiro plan,

1 that, as this witness testified for the local level, that anyone ever said

2 that if you don't accept it, the guns will be there tomorrow. That's, of

3 course -- so I do understand what you're seeking. To what extent the

4 parallel would really assist the Chamber is still to be seen. But please

5 proceed now. Ask the witness to put his headphones on again. But let's

6 not spend too much time. And I do agree with Mr. Tieger that we could try

7 to -- I'm not quite sure whether all the details of the Cutileiro plan are

8 really known to the witness and to what extent it's really necessary to go

9 through all this in detail. If you would say what is the -- your general

10 idea of what the Cutileiro plan was about, well, division of territory,

11 that's, I mean, I think would do for the purposes you are seeking this.

12 Yes, Mr. Tieger.

13 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. And I think it may be

14 important to point out, and I'm glad we had the opportunity to hear

15 counsel's response, that to some extent, the thrust of the question and

16 the alleged parallel may be based on a faulty premise. We heard a great

17 deal of evidence, some of which came from the Defence, that the Cutileiro

18 negotiations and especially that part that counsel seems to be focusing

19 on, had broken down by the time the negotiations -- before the time the

20 negotiations in Vlasenica began. So --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't have all the details of time in my mind

22 at this moment. But perhaps you could consider this as well, Ms. Loukas,

23 when you continue to cross-examine.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I think that I already have and that

25 does not create the disconnect.

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1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's see what it brings us. But perhaps you

2 could try to do it as efficiently as possible.

3 Could you please put your headphones on again.

4 MS. LOUKAS:

5 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, what was your understanding of the broad

6 agreement that had been reached in relation to the Cutileiro plan?

7 A. I wouldn't speak about superficial things, about Vance-Owen or

8 Cutilheiro's plans, because I just saw this on TV and I read about it. If

9 I were to talk about these two, I would have to have the plans before me,

10 read them. Otherwise, I wouldn't venture into commenting upon them. If

11 there is anything in your statement that you want to ask me about, I'm at

12 your disposal.

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Redzic. Now, I'm asking you what your

14 understanding was, so far as you can remember it now, at the time, in

15 Vlasenica, of what was going on in relation to the Cutileiro plan.

16 A. I really can't tell you anything. I just knew the outlines of

17 those, like so many people. I just watched information on TV. I've never

18 seen the plan itself, and it wouldn't be proper for me to discuss things

19 that I don't know the details of.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Redzic, if you, as you tell us, you knew the

21 outline of the plan, just give us your global understanding of what it was

22 about. No one blames you for not knowing any details. But since you tell

23 us that you have a general idea, please tell us what it was about.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me be honest with you and tell

25 you that I really don't remember at this point in time. This was 14 years

1 ago, 11, 12, 13 years ago.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me ask it to you in a different way. Was

3 the plan about joining the different parties in one government, or was it

4 about division of power, or was it about division of territory, or was it

5 about stop fighting? What was the plan at all about? Do you remember

6 that?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was about the division of Bosnia

8 and Herzegovina. After the multi-party election, the government was

9 formed consisting of all the peoples. The Presidency, the government, and

10 all the other institutions in Bosnia and Herzegovina and at lower levels.

11 And this was one of the causes. The mini-division of Vlasenica followed

12 the same principle. So we're talking about a dissolution, a break-up of a

13 unity which was Bosnia-Herzegovina and the annexation of the other parts

14 of Serbian territories too, Yugoslavia, and parts of Croatia to Croatia.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You said it was about division, and you also now

16 mention territory. Was it about territorial division, this plan?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Defence counsel told me that the

18 division should have been territorial, although formally it should have

19 stayed a single state. This defies any reasoning. One part of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina would go one way, one part of Herzegovina would go

21 another way. So this is what would have happened.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

23 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Q. Okay. In any event, you, at the time, had some awareness of

25 this -- the negotiations going on in relation to the Cutileiro plan, based

1 on your watching TV and reading newspapers; correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And so did other people in Vlasenica; correct?

4 A. TV and newspapers, yes. Those were our sources of information.

5 As the president of the Executive Board, I never saw any of these

6 agreements or plans. I don't know whether it makes any sense for me to

7 discuss the details of the negotiations, the results of which I've never

8 read or seen.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, the witness feels a bit uncomfortable on

10 understandable grounds. If you -- the sooner you come to your point, I

11 think the sooner he might feel at ease again.

12 MS. LOUKAS: I'm sure, Your Honour, he feels uncomfortable, and

13 I'm sure I'll make him feel comfortable.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, the situation is this: I'm not interested in

15 cross-examining you about the fine detail of this document. I'm

16 interested about your knowledge at the time and your understanding of what

17 other people's knowledge was at the time in your municipality in

18 Vlasenica. Do we understand each other?

19 A. I understand your question, but I cannot answer about things that

20 I know only superficially. I understand your question, but what am I

21 supposed to tell you in answer to that question? How am I supposed to

22 answer your question?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Redzic, first of all, it's 7.00, and that's the

24 time where we usually stop. I nevertheless would like to say the

25 following to you: Whenever there's a question to which you would not know

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1 the answer, just tell us that you don't know. If someone says: Do you

2 know about the Cutileiro plan? And if you know something about it, just

3 say: I know something about it. If the next question would be: Could

4 you give us any idea of how the -- well, let's say the territorial

5 division would take place; if you know, tell us. And if you say, well, I

6 know that was in two parts, but that's all I know, just answer the

7 question to the level of your knowledge. And whenever you have any

8 problems in doing so, just address me and say: I don't know how to answer

9 this question, or how to understand this question. And we'll certainly

10 sort that out in a way that Ms. Loukas gets the answer to the level of

11 what you can tell her and what you can't tell her, you'll not tell her.

12 Is that clear?

13 Then apart from that, I'd like to instruct you that we'd like to

14 see you back tomorrow, but tomorrow morning, at 9.00, and I'm looking to

15 you, Madam Registrar, to know in what courtroom. It will be in this same

16 courtroom. Tomorrow morning, 9.00. And I instruct you not to speak with

17 anyone about the testimony you have given until now and not to speak to

18 anyone about the testimony you will still continue to give tomorrow. Is

19 that clear? We'll then adjourn until 9.00 tomorrow morning, same

20 courtroom.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

22 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 31st day of

23 August, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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