1 Tuesday, 31 August 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you
6 please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus
8 Momcilo Krajisnik.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. Tieger, there was an outstanding question yesterday about the
11 date of a certain transcript. Could you inform the Chamber.
12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm afraid at this point I have nothing
13 to add. I certainly thought about it last night after we recessed, but
14 due to the hour I was unable to -- both sides of our adjournment, that is
15 last night and this morning, it was either too late or too early to get a
16 meaningful response. I have that at the top of the list, and I will
17 attempt to provide the court with an answer as soon as possible.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. I do understand that you're
19 dependent on other people to inform you. If you are paying attention to
20 those transcripts, perhaps you could also pay attention to the following:
21 In the transcript -- because I could read them without being dependent on
22 anyone yesterday evening. In the transcript of a conversation of the 11th
23 of December, 1991, between Mr. Bajagic and Mr. Karadzic -- well, first of
24 all, the transcript says that all pages are page 5 out of 5, which is at
25 least not of great assistance if we want to refer to certain pages. But
1 the last two pages, 5 out of 5, I found, at least at the last page, but
2 certainly the last page, all the speakers are mixed up. If you read them,
3 and if you read the text, "Well, good, Mr. Radovan," and if the speaker is
4 supposed to be Mr. Karadzic himself, or when you read "goodbye, my Zvonko,
5 regards," and the speaker is Zvonko Bajagic, then that urges us to compare
6 the English text with the original, and then it seems to me that all
7 speakers -- well, the two speakers have been, at least on the last page,
8 constantly mixed up.
9 So the Chamber would ask you two things. First of all, to provide
10 a copy which reflects the original in B/C/S. That's one. And the second
11 request is that the material before presented to the Chamber is checked on
12 this kind of points, because it's not the first time that these kinds of
13 things happened, and the Chamber would rather concentrate on the content
14 than on checking how to explain the parts of the documents that are really
15 incomprehensible, if not compared to the original and if not corrected
17 So then the Chamber will hear from you, and I take it that we get
18 a few other pages, whether 5 out of 5, or 4 out of 5, that's another
20 Having dealt with that, and inviting Ms. Loukas not to complicate
21 matters to a level not understandable any more for the witness -- I'm not
22 saying that it was, but there was at least a risk that the exercise might
23 lead to more confusion than to more clarification. I'd like to ask the
24 usher to escort the witness into the courtroom.
25 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, I'd agree, Your Honour. Simplicity is always a
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Redzic. Can you hear me in a
5 language you understand?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From your answer, I do take it that you can
8 hear me. May I remind you that you're still bound by the solemn
9 declaration you've given yesterday at the beginning of your testimony,
10 that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 Ms. Loukas will now continue.
12 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.
13 WITNESS: IZET REDZIC [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas: [Continued]
17 Q. Mr. Redzic, good morning.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. Now, you'll recall that when we finished yesterday evening I was
20 asking you some questions about your awareness of the Cutileiro plan. Are
21 you having problems with your headphones?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It seems that the witness does not...
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not hear you before. I did
24 not hear the first part of your question.
25 MS. LOUKAS:
1 Q. Yes, certainly, Mr. Redzic. I'll just repeat that. You'll recall
2 that when we finished yesterday evening, I was asking you some questions
3 about the Cutileiro plan.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, just one final question on that topic. I take it, of course,
6 that you're aware that Izetbegovic had agreed to the principles of the
7 Cutileiro plan but had then changed his mind. You're aware of that;
9 A. I read it in the papers and I watched some of those things on TV.
10 I'm not aware of any details. I only knew what I saw on TV. I didn't
11 know the truth of the matter, because I did not see anything on paper. I
12 did not see any documents.
13 Q. And that's, of course, a similar position that you adopt in
14 relation to your awareness of the SDS activities, of course, at a senior
16 A. I wouldn't go into that. I wouldn't speak about the SDS or the
17 SDA or any other government. I was not informed about any of those
18 things, and I would not wish to talk about things that I knew only
20 Q. I appreciate that, Mr. Redzic. And what I want to take you to is
21 awareness of some matters of the local community in Vlasenica. Are you
22 with me? That's the next topic I want to go to.
23 A. Which local commune are you referring to? Are you referring to
24 the municipality of Vlasenica --
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. -- or a local commune?
2 Q. No, no. The local municipality of Vlasenica. So we're on the
3 same page; correct?
4 A. Yes. So we are talking about Vlasenica municipality.
5 Q. Yes. At the opstina level, correct. Okay. Now, in September
6 1991, were you aware of mixed Croat-Muslim paramilitary groups --
7 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be a problem with the headphones.
8 Let's continue. I'll keep a close eye on it. Yes. Perhaps it's better
9 to use another earphone.
10 Mr. Redzic, is it any better now? Is it better now?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear a thing.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, not many people are speaking at this moment,
13 but can you hear me at this moment?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I hear something from the
15 interpreter, please?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it a matter of interpretation or is it a
17 matter of earphones? Ms. Cmeric, do you receive any interpretation at
18 this moment if you would choose the B/C/S channel?
19 MS. CMERIC: Excuse me, Your Honour, I was on channel 0.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. But could you please change
21 to the B/C/S. And do you receive interpretation?
22 MS. CMERIC: Yes, I do receive interpretation.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So interpretation is not the problem. Mr. Redzic, do
24 you now hear the interpretation of what I'm saying? Yes. You say
25 something, but --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are interpretations.
2 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just to indicate it's breaking up.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It's breaking up. Then it seems to be a technical
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll try one more earphone. If that doesn't solve
7 the matter, then there will be something wrong with the signal.
8 Mr. Redzic, you made some gestures which I understand gestures of
9 satisfaction of the interpretation you now receive; is that correct?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.
12 MS. LOUKAS:
13 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, if you have any further problems with your
14 headphones, please let us know straight away so we can stop and attend to
15 whatever it is, so there's no breakdown in communication. Understood?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. Now, prior to those technical difficulties, I was asking
18 you a question about your awareness or otherwise of certain activities in
19 the Vlasenica municipality. You understood where we were up to so far;
21 A. Yes. But I'm waiting for your direct questions. What you have
22 just said was very general.
23 Q. Yes. Exactly. It's not a question. I just want to ensure that
24 you know where we're up to at this point, okay?
25 Now, were you aware in September 1991 of mixed Croat-Muslim
1 paramilitary groups setting up stake-outs and frisking travellers on the
2 road between Milici and the Boksit mine?
3 A. This is beyond comprehension, not to know an answer to this
4 question. In my testimony, I said that Vlasenica municipality had 0.01
5 Croats, so it doesn't make sense to think that there were some joint
6 groups that put up blockades and searched travellers in the areas that you
7 mentioned. In that area, there were just two groups: Serbs and Muslims.
8 As for Croats, there were just 0.01 per cent Croats. They were mostly
9 teachers who had arrived from other areas and worked in Vlasenica.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Redzic, may I direct you in the following manner:
11 You said that it made no sense to even consider mixed groups. Whether it
12 makes sense or not is, first of all, a matter of reasoning, not a matter
13 of fact. I'm not suggesting that it was the case, but it could be that
14 Croats from elsewhere would have joined. I'm not saying that this is the
15 case, but -- so whether it makes sense or makes no sense is a different
16 matter. Ms. Loukas asked you whether you were aware of any such mixed
17 groups blockading -- blocking the roads. If you are, please tell us. If
18 you are not, please tell us that you are not. Whether it makes sense or
19 not is not something to be discussed at this moment.
20 Also, if you, for example, would know about such groups but not
21 including Croats, just tell us what you know about Muslim groups or
22 whether these were Hungarians or whatever. Tell us what you know and
23 don't discuss whether the question makes any sense or not.
24 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.
25 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.
2 MS. LOUKAS:
3 Q. Now, just in relation to that, Mr. Redzic, you do understand that
4 the Judges have to decide this case. You do understand that, don't you?
5 A. Absolutely.
6 Q. Okay. And, of course, neither you nor I are going to decide this
8 A. The truth will help the Judges decide.
9 Q. Exactly. And, of course, you know that it's the way of justice
10 that it's fair to give both sides a chance to ask questions. You
11 appreciate that, don't you?
12 A. Of course, and that's why I'm here.
13 Q. Okay. Now, getting back to my question. Of course, my question
14 did not contain the inference that I was talking about Croats from the
15 local municipality of Vlasenica. What I'm doing is asking you a series of
16 questions about your awareness about various activities in the local
17 municipality, and most of the questions should be able to be answered yes
18 or no, whether you have an awareness or whether you don't. Are you with
19 me so far?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you can add anything on a factual basis, add it, but when you
22 can answer yes, answer yes, and where you can answer no, answer no. Do
23 you understand me? Because we have limited time in this court.
24 A. Absolutely.
25 Q. Now, were you aware in February 1992 of members of a Muslim and
1 Croat armed paramilitary formation kidnapping people, hijacking trucks,
2 and conducting searches on the road between Milici and the Boksit mine?
3 This is in February 1992 I'm talking about now.
4 A. No.
5 Q. Were you aware in February, March, and April of 1992 of some
6 members of the Muslim people in Vlasenica leaving on their own volition
7 for Tuzla?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were you aware on the 16th of May, 1992, of the disarming of
10 Muslim paramilitary formations in Zaklopaca?
11 A. If the Chamber will allow me to say something about this place.
12 Zaklopaca suffered a disaster at the beginning of the war. 83 civilians
13 were killed, amongst them five or six children. 80 per cent of them were
14 women. The rest were men. So this is not correct. This is a lie, and so
15 many lies were told about Zaklopaca village. On that same day, these
16 people were killed. And I apologise, Your Honours. I had to say that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Redzic, a question was put to you. It's not up
18 to you to say that there are lies. It was just a question put to you.
19 The question was whether you are aware that there was any disarming of
20 Muslim paramilitary formations on the 16th of May, 1992. If there was,
21 that does not exclude that other people were killed, either prior to that
22 or later to that, and whether this would be part of the truth or the whole
23 truth, or it would be not true at all, is a different question. You're
24 asked whether you are aware of any disarming on the 16th of May, 1992 of
25 Muslim paramilitary formations in that place. Are you aware?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then I come back to the previous question put to you.
3 You were asked whether you were aware of any Muslim people leaving
4 Vlasenica in certain month, including the month of April 1992. You said:
5 No, I'm not aware. Did I understand from your previous testimony that --
6 did I understand from your previous testimony that you yourself left
7 Vlasenica in the month of April 1992, that is to say, on the 18th or the
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, a question was put to
10 me whether I was aware that some people left Vlasenica in February and
11 went to Tuzla. This is what I understood.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the question was covering more months.
13 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct, Your Honour. It was February, March,
14 and April.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question -- and I ask you to carefully
16 listen to the questions. The question was whether you were aware of
17 Muslim people leaving Vlasenica in the month February, March, or April
18 1992. Since I now I understand that you misunderstood the question, could
19 you please answer to this question.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The mass departure from Vlasenica
21 happened at the beginning of April 1992. At that time, most of the people
22 from Vlasenica went to Kladanj, Tuzla, and Zivinice.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And there was another part in the question, a
24 detail. Could you please ask the witness about that, Ms. Loukas. That
25 was about the why, and -- yes.
1 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Now, just going back to that previous question. The situation is
3 that in February, March, and April of 1992, members of the Muslim people
4 in Vlasenica left of their own volition for Tuzla?
5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. TIEGER: I didn't want to cover that disjunctive in the two
8 questions which I think was responsible for some of the confusion we've
9 heard but now it seems counsel is trying to take advantage of it. The
10 original question was did people leave in February March and April, which
11 seemed to suggest an exodus began in February.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It's clear, Ms. Loukas, that the witness in his
13 answer has emphasised that it was in the beginning of April that the
14 majority -- and I don't know whether we need any details about how many
15 per cent at that moment and whether it was five or several per cent
17 Please proceed.
18 MS. LOUKAS: I appreciate that, Your Honour. I think I'll just
19 leave February and March alone and concentrate on April.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MS. LOUKAS:
22 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, are you aware in April of members of the Muslim
23 community in Vlasenica leaving of their own volition?
24 A. No, not of their own volition. They did leave, but not of their
25 own volition.
1 Q. Well, Mr. Redzic, it's true, is it not, that in your evidence
2 yesterday in relation to the question of negotiations over the division of
3 the municipality you indicated that you'd actually spoken to
4 Mr. Izetbegovic; correct?
5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, could we have a page reference in the
6 transcript, please. I see counsel is referring to the transcript.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, to the extent possible, could you
8 guide us.
9 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I'm still looking for
10 it at this stage.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I'll try to find the page. You may continue, and
12 then -- because it's clearly in my mind that there was some consultation.
13 MS. LOUKAS:
14 Q. In any event, Mr. Redzic, I think you referred in the statement
15 you gave on the 12th of October, 1994, that you made contact with
16 President Izetbegovic and that he told you to give the Serbs the
17 impression that you were complying with the order so that you could give
18 as many Muslims as possible the chance to flee the city. That's correct,
19 isn't it?
20 A. No. That's not what it says in my statement. It wasn't stated
21 the way you put it. If I can clarify this.
22 Q. Well, before you go on to that, I'll just -- so you're saying that
23 you don't agree that what you said in your statement was: "I made contact
24 with President Izetbegovic, who told me to give the Serbs the impression
25 we were complying with the order so we could give as many Muslims as
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 possible the chance to flee the city. I left Vlasenica on 18th of April,
3 You're telling the Court that that's not what's in your statement;
5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
7 MR. TIEGER: I think it would be fair and I think it's been the
8 practice in this Chamber to provide the witness with a copy.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Page 47, line 2 in my transcript, which is the
10 non-corrected transcript -- people out. That's -- no. Yes. That's
11 what -- at least one of the consultations. And I'm -- if you take the
12 transcript of yesterday and search for Izetbegovic, you'll find all the
13 references to -- let me -- I have one on page 47, line 2. I have --
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: I find not the specific page reference as far as the
16 people to flee, but I do to get the people out. It's more or less -- it's
17 not exactly, perhaps, but I have to admit that I couldn't find it
18 immediately. If you have it, Ms. Loukas, would you please provide it to
19 us. Otherwise I'll continue to search.
20 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I was referring to the statement at that
21 point. Now I'll refer back to the transcript, Your Honours, kindly --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for misunderstanding you. So the
23 transcript would be -- I take it, then, you will go to page 47.
24 MS. LOUKAS: Precisely, Your Honour, yes.
25 Q. Now, just on this topic, the evidence you gave yesterday was that
1 you spoke with Mr. Izetbegovic, and Mr. Izetbegovic said: "Stall for as
2 long as possible to get the people out. Because the people weren't
3 organised, they didn't have weapons or anything else, they didn't have any
4 possibility of surviving that territory, given what had happened or was
5 happening to the Muslim and Bosniak population."
6 Now, you recall giving that answer yesterday, I take it?
7 A. Yes. That's what I said. I said that because it was a matter of
8 avoiding consequences in the future.
9 Q. I appreciate that. But you would agree with me, Mr. Redzic, that
10 arrangements were undertaken to ensure that Muslims could leave; correct?
11 A. Well, there's a question I put to you. Why was it necessary for
12 the Muslims to flee? Was it in front of tanks and rifle barrels that were
13 already being put to use and the Bosniak civilian population was being
14 killed? The reason for their departure was their security. It was the
15 fact that they were victims, that property was being destroyed. That's
16 the reason for which that population, those inhabitants, set off in the
17 direction of Tuzla, Kladanj, and other places.
18 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Redzic, I hope you'll appreciate both our
19 functions here, and that is that I'm here to ask the questions and --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, on the other hand, if I may interrupt.
21 If you just ignore the difference between the words "leave" and "flee,"
22 then we'll be in this courtroom for the next hour in great confusion.
23 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MS. LOUKAS:
1 Q. So nevertheless, the situation is that in your conversation with
2 Mr. Izetbegovic, you wanted to ensure that as many Muslims as possible
3 left Vlasenica; correct?
4 A. Our concern was to save as many Muslims as possible and to prevent
5 them from being killed.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, going back to the matters I was covering in the
7 local municipality: Were you aware of Muslim paramilitary formations in
8 Milici in April?
9 A. No, I wasn't.
10 Q. And were you aware of -- just in relation to this question of the
11 initiatives to divide the municipality, would it be true to say that
12 the -- those initiatives, in fact, commenced towards the end of 1991 and
13 early 1992? Would you agree with that proposition?
14 A. The formation of the institutions in Republika Srpska after a
15 short period of time, after this happened, the desire for division in
16 other municipalities occurred as well.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, of course, I'm asking you questions in relation
18 to the local municipality of Vlasenica. You've already conceded that your
19 knowledge at the higher level is extremely limited. Perhaps it would be
20 more useful to concentrate on the local municipality of Vlasenica at this
21 point. Are you with me?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Okay. Now, during that period - February, March, and part of
24 April 1992 - would you agree with me that a significant number of Serbs
25 actually left the area?
1 A. Yes, I would agree with you. Children -- all the children of
2 Serbian nationality were moved to Serbia.
3 Q. My question was not just directed to children. I'm talking about
4 Serb people generally, not just children.
5 A. The women and people were all in the area of the municipality of
7 Q. Okay. So you're not agreeing with my proposition that Serb
8 people, both male and female and children, that a significant number of
9 Serbs left the area? You don't agree with that proposition? You're only
10 defining it as children having left; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Would you agree that that time in Vlasenica and perhaps in Bosnia
13 generally, in early April, was a time of quite some chaos?
14 A. Absolutely. The events that occurred during that period of time
15 demonstrate that it was a time of chaos.
16 Q. Now, were you aware of a rally, a founding rally of the SDA, in
17 Bratunac - so we're dealing back here in 1990 - but a founding rally of
18 the SDA in Bratunac. There were thousands of Muslims at this rally and
19 some slogans were indicated at the rally, such as "Serbs go to Serbia and
20 slaughter Serbs." Are you aware of anything of that nature?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You're aware, of course, that the SDA banned the Muslims of
23 Vlasenica responding to the JNA mobilisation; correct?
24 A. Yes. Not the SDA. You misconstrued the question. In response to
25 decisions of the Presidency of the BH and of the government of the BH that
1 followed the order, that there shouldn't be a mobilisation in
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It didn't have to do with an SDA order. This was
3 done at the level of state institutions.
4 Q. But, of course, you're aware that that was contrary to the laws of
5 Yugoslavia at the time; correct?
6 A. No. As far as I know, the problems hadn't been solved at the
7 level of the former Yugoslavia, and it had been agreed that there
8 shouldn't be any movement or mobilisation of troops in Bosnia-Herzegovina
9 until the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina reached an agreement at the
10 level of the Presidency of the former Yugoslavia.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, a matter of interpretation -- a matter,
12 perhaps, of transcript. Did you say that the problem had been solved at
13 the level of the former Yugoslavia or that it had not been solved?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The problem hadn't been solved. The
15 problem of going ahead with the mobilisation. The problem was to deal
16 with this until everything had been solved at the level of the republics
17 and the state.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Please proceed.
19 MS. LOUKAS:
20 Q. Okay. So, Mr. Redzic, that's your interpretation of the legality
21 at the time, and we'll leave it at that for the time being.
22 Now, were you aware of members of the Patriotic League in the
23 municipality of Vlasenica in early 1992?
24 A. No, I wasn't. And if that had been the case, if that was in
25 existence, I should have been aware of it.
1 Q. Now, were you aware of the JNA when it left taking with it its
3 A. According to what people from Vlasenica said, the JNA left all its
4 weapons and artillery in the area of the municipality of Vlasenica.
5 Q. And that's, of course, what you heard from other people and not
6 something that you can give direct evidence from your own observations;
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Redzic, I just want to take you back to the
10 statement that you gave on the 12th of October, 1994, which is, of course,
11 the first statement that you gave to the Prosecution for this institution.
12 MS. LOUKAS: Perhaps Mr. Redzic might be provided by the
13 Prosecution with a copy of his Prosecution statement.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I noticed that although it's on your
15 potential exhibit list, you did not present it to the witness.
16 Ms. Loukas, may I ask you to consider whether it will be necessary
17 to tender it or whether it's just a specific part you want to --
18 MS. LOUKAS: Well, actually, there's no need to tender it, Your
19 Honour. There are some specific aspects that I want to go to.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you then take care that the relevant part
21 is properly read into the transcript so that there's no confusion later
23 Please proceed.
24 MS. LOUKAS:
25 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, you have your statement before you; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, that particular statement was taken on the 12th of October,
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And I think you also gave a subsequent statement on the 1st of
6 August, 2002, in which you gave further general information in relation to
7 the municipality of Vlasenica; agreed?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, when this statement was being taken, Mr. Redzic, of course, a
10 careful note was being taken of what you were saying by the interviewers?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And you understood, of course, that they needed your statement to
13 investigate the matters that occurred in Vlasenica?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And it was important for the purposes of ensuring that they could
16 find the people responsible for what occurred in Vlasenica?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And, of course, you understood at the time the importance of
19 telling the truth?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And, of course, of telling the whole truth?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you understood the importance of telling the Prosecution
24 everything you knew about what had occurred in Vlasenica?
25 A. While I was there, concerning the period during which I was there,
1 from the '90s until the time that the conflict broke out.
2 Q. Yes. And, of course, the Prosecution interviewers, of course,
3 gave you your opportunity to tell your story of what occurred; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And it wasn't just a question of there being questions and
6 answers, but you would volunteer material that you felt might assist the
7 Prosecution; correct?
8 A. Well, yes. I didn't provide them with versions of any kind. I
9 told them the truth.
10 Q. But, of course, when they asked you questions on a particular
11 topic, you would tell them, of course, everything you knew?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And it was, of course, a detailed statement; you'd agree with me?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And do you recall how many hours the statement took, Mr. Redzic?
16 A. In 1992; is that the period you're referring to, when I gave the
17 first one?
18 MS. LOUKAS: No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, the Chamber is not aware of the existence
20 of any statement of the 1st of August, 2002. We have not been provided
21 with that.
22 Mr. Tieger, is there any --
23 MR. TIEGER: It's not, in fact, a statement, Your Honour. It's an
24 information report that reflects a discussion with Mr. Redzic, which
25 covered, as counsel indicated, general information about the Vlasenica
1 municipality. It was not the subject of -- I'd be happy to provide it to
2 the Court.
3 JUDGE ORIE: What I have is a supplemental information sheet dated
4 the 18th of October. What I have is a supplemental information sheet
5 dated the 30th of August, 2004. But -- so we do have some general
6 information sheets, but not an information sheet dated the 1st of August,
8 MR. TIEGER: Sorry. I frankly didn't pay attention to the
9 specific date. I understood that counsel was referring to the information
10 reports. If there's some discrepancy, I'd be surprised, but -- it's our
11 intention to give the Court --
12 JUDGE ORIE: It suggests that there's a third general information
13 sheet, information provided by this witness.
14 Ms. Loukas, could you --
15 MS. LOUKAS: I think there may be some confusion there, Your
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MS. LOUKAS: I'll just locate my copy of that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Because you asked the witness: "And I think you also
20 gave a subsequent statement on the 1st of August, 2002, in which you gave
21 further general information in relation to the municipality." So I'm just
22 wondering whether we missed something.
23 MS. LOUKAS: That's just -- sorry, Your Honour.
24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour --
25 MS. LOUKAS: If that was dated 18th of October --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then the confusion has been -- is over now. Yes.
2 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. I was just referring -- all I've
3 referred to so far is the 12th of October, 1994 statement, and that's what
4 I'm asking the witness about. And there was that general information
5 sheet of the --
6 JUDGE ORIE: 18th of October, you told us.
7 MS. LOUKAS: If I might just have a moment to check the dates of
8 those two documents to save any confusion. Just a second.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you started saying the 1st of August, 2002, and
10 now the last time you referred to it, you said the 18th of October. We
11 have an 18th of October.
12 MR. TIEGER: Both dates are in fact correct, Your Honour. The
13 discussion or the conversation took place on the 1st of August.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. TIEGER: The report was dated the 18th of October. It's the
16 same document.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And does that appear somewhere in the report that the
18 interview was --
19 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. You'll see at the top of the
20 document the date 18 October, and then in the box beneath the heading
21 supplemental information sheet, it indicates proofing date, Thursday,
22 1 August 2002. The ERN date of that document, to resolve any confusion,
23 is 01135260.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I see. Yes. So just to enable us to not
25 create any -- I now do understand that the 18th of October and the 1st of
1 August are -- is the same document.
2 Yes, please proceed, Ms. Loukas.
3 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. Yes. I think it was
4 just that question of the fact that there was two dates on that particular
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MS. LOUKAS:
8 Q. Now, going back to the statement on the 12th of October, 1994,
9 Mr. Redzic, that I was asking you questions about, the Prosecution, of
10 course, asked you to tell them everything you knew, and you told them
11 everything you knew at that stage; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Now, in relation to your statement of the 12th of October,
14 1994, how many hours were you in conference with the Prosecution?
15 A. I can't remember. It was a long time ago.
16 Q. But certainly it would have been most of the day, from the morning
17 to the afternoon; you'd agree?
18 A. The conversation probably took a while, but I don't remember how
20 Q. And, of course, you had a chance to read the document, your entire
21 statement, before you signed it?
22 A. Believe it or not, I signed it without having read it first. I
23 trusted that what it said in the statement was correct, so there was no
24 need for me to read it.
25 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Redzic, just to clarify: Of course, you did tell
1 the Prosecutors everything you knew at that stage; correct?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, it's not for me to assess how counsel
4 wants to use her limited time, but that question has been asked and
5 answered, I think, twice before.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, in general terms, you usually take
7 some ten minutes to find out. If you just ask the witness whether he has
8 given to the best of his knowledge as complete as possible the answers to
9 the questions to him, that would certainly satisfy the matters. Apart
10 from that, asking whether he read the statement when the statement clearly
11 says, two times, that it was read to him, that the translation was read to
12 him orally in Bosnian, is really a waste of time. And apart from that, I
13 know that perhaps it's part of the art of advocacy, but also questions
14 like, did it take a considerable time? I mean, everyone who is
15 experienced in this field of law knows that putting on paper such a
16 statement takes a considerable time, and whether that was then four, five,
17 or six hours, just to emphasise that, because that's -- I expect that
18 you're going to make a point that it was either incomplete or incorrect
19 somewhere. Just come to your point, without this introduction. And if
20 you want to introduce that, do that in one, two, or three questions but
21 not for ten minutes.
22 Please proceed.
23 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I appreciate that,
24 obviously, the jury style is very different to what is expected in front
25 of professional Judges.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are not jurors, but I do appreciate and I do
2 understand that it needs some adaptation. But we are only the three of
3 us. Usually juries are more people.
4 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, indeed, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MS. LOUKAS:
7 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, I just want to take you to some evidence you gave
8 yesterday in court. And the page reference is page 36, for the benefit of
9 the Court.
10 You referred in your evidence yesterday to yourself and Mr. Stanic
11 participating in meetings with observers every week and that on one
12 occasion a gentleman from the monitoring mission addressed you personally
13 and you had a conversation. Do you recall giving that evidence yesterday?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That this gentleman had had a conversation with you and also with
16 Mr. Stanic; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, you've got your statement before you there, your statement of
19 the 12th of October, 1994. You'd agree with me, would you not,
20 Mr. Redzic, that that does not appear in your statement? I take it, to
21 save time, the Prosecution will concede.
22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, as the Court is aware, we filed a
23 supplemental proofing information sheet which contained that. So I think
24 we're all in agreement that that was not in the statement.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. With this addition, the Prosecution concedes to
1 that, Ms. Loukas.
2 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to that, Your Honour, I don't think
3 the supplemental proofing sheet included that there was a conversation
4 with a gentleman from the monitoring mission. Mr. Tieger will correct me
5 if I'm wrong.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you referred to that the supplemental
7 information sheet contains seven points. Could you indicate in which one
8 it appears.
9 MR. TIEGER: Number 5, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Again, I don't think that includes the conversation
12 with someone from a monitoring mission.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed on the matter and see whether -- I do
14 agree with you that I have some difficulty in understanding, but perhaps
15 you can get the information from the witness.
16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Okay. Now, so you did not indicate anything in your statement
18 about a conversation with a gentleman from the monitoring mission;
20 A. Correct. I could not remember all the details at the time. One
21 cannot, simply cannot remember.
22 Q. Right. So ten years after you gave your statement and 12 years
23 after the events in question, your memory has improved; correct?
24 A. No. No. When I gave my statement, I did not mention all the
1 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, let's go to some other evidence you gave
2 yesterday, page 51, for the benefit of the Court and the Prosecution.
3 Now, looking at that, you gave evidence that: "Mr. Stanic told me that
4 there were no more possibilities and he said that these orders had come
5 from higher up." And this was in relation to the topic of dividing the
6 municipality. Do you recall giving that evidence yesterday, Mr. Redzic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Now, if you have a look at your statement that you have
9 before you. It's on page 6 in the English version. It's the paragraph
10 commencing: "The team presented this ultimatum to a Muslim delegation."
11 A. Which paragraph is that?
12 JUDGE ORIE: It's just on the top of page 6 in the B/C/S version.
13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the document that Mr. Redzic has in
14 front of him is also correspondingly numbered, so we can also refer to the
15 numbered paragraphs.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The problem is that we've got no numbers. So,
17 therefore, it's on the top of page 6, where it says that the team
18 presented this ultimatum. That's right on the top of page 6.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MS. LOUKAS:
22 Q. So yesterday you said in relation --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.
24 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry about that.
25 Q. Yesterday you said that in relation to the division that
1 Mr. Stanic told you that there were no more possibilities and he said
2 these orders had come from higher up. If you look at your paragraph of
3 the statement dealing with that particular issue, you indicate in the
4 middle of the paragraph that: "The team members told us that they were
5 given the assignment to present this ultimatum, but they did not say who
6 had given them this task"; correct?
7 A. That is what it says. But it must be a misunderstanding. It must
8 be a typo or maybe a translation mistake. In any case, on very many
9 occasions, Mr. Stanic repeated that the order came from the top, and the
10 top is not the top of the SDA. It was well known which top he was
11 referring to.
12 Q. Okay. So you're at this stage saying that you think it was a
13 typo; is that correct, Mr. Redzic?
14 A. Probably. Probably I signed not having read. I trusted it was
15 correct. This is a mistake. There may be more than this one. But I'm
16 sure you are also clear on who was it who issued orders to the lower
17 levels in this case.
18 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic -- okay. So in your statement you've got they
19 were given the assignment, did not say who gave them the task. In
20 evidence, you say the orders came from higher up. And so it's true to say
21 you're going higher up the ladder ten years later, correct, or attempting
23 A. I do not understand your question fully.
24 Q. Okay. I'll withdraw it. Was the statement read out to you,
25 Mr. Redzic?
1 A. Are you referring to October 1994?
2 Q. Indeed I am. I'm referring to the statement that's in front of
4 A. Are you referring to the time when I gave my statement and signed
5 it in October 1994?
6 Q. Yes, that's what I'm referring to.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, I'd like --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was probably --
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- to take your earphones off for a second. Thank
10 you very much.
11 Ms. Loukas, I read the statement. I read the testimony of
12 yesterday. In your examination of the witness, you suggest, and it seems
13 that the witness might be confused about it, that there is some
14 contradiction between the two, which, in the view of the Chamber, and I
15 just check with my colleagues, is not. I mean, an assignment is usually
16 not given by your subordinates but by a higher-up level. To give a task
17 is not something that usually you get from an equal but from someone who
18 is above you. And the only thing he said in his testimony is that higher
19 level, not knowing who, and to that extent the statement is fully in line
20 with what the witness said yesterday. So you are creating a lot of
21 confusion with the witness who might not look through that, which there
22 should not be. If you would keep that in mind. Thank you, continue.
23 Please proceed.
24 MS. LOUKAS: If Your Honour takes the view that the last aspect I
25 was covering, I'm happy to move on to the next one.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Redzic, would you --
2 MS. LOUKAS: There are others.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. I'm not -- of course, I'm not stopping
4 you in putting questions to the witness, but I just wanted to make you
5 aware of the -- what the Chamber noticed.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. Now, going to your testimony yesterday, Mr. Redzic, at page 55,
9 for the benefit of the Court, you indicated, at about line 20, and you
10 were dealing with this question of people coming from Vlasenica and
11 telling you that the soldiers and officers were very tolerant and treated
12 the Muslim population in Vlasenica very fairly, that soldiers came and
13 they were offered coffee and cakes. And the soldiers told them that the
14 SDS, the Serbian Democratic Party, had requested the corps to go there,
15 because between 300 and 350 Serbs had had their throats cut. You recall
16 giving that evidence yesterday?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, I want you to have a look at your statement, the statement
19 that's before you. And you'll recall we were at the top of page 6.
20 A. Which paragraph am I looking at?
21 Q. We're at the top of the page on that last aspect. So not the next
22 one, but the one after that, where you've got: "According to what people
23 have told me, the city was entered." Do you see that paragraph?
24 JUDGE ORIE: I think in the B/C/S version it's the paragraph that
25 starts with the word --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 MR. TIEGER: It's number 28 on the witness's version, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have no numbers, as I told you.
4 MS. LOUKAS:
5 Q. So you've got paragraph 28 before you, Mr. Redzic?
6 A. 20? 26. No. Actually, 28. 28.
7 Q. You see that in that particular paragraph you're dealing with that
8 information. Do you agree with me, about the coffee and the cakes and the
9 soldiers and what have you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And nowhere in that paragraph do you indicate that the SDS had
12 requested the corps, do you, Mr. Redzic?
13 A. There was no need for me to indicate that. We knew that there
14 were only two parties. The SDA did not request that, so it had to be the
15 SDS. And it would have been unnecessary to emphasise that, because the
16 SDS was the only party that could have done that.
17 Q. Okay. That's your belief.
18 A. And the SDS proved that with all the victims and all the
20 Q. Okay. So that's your belief, Mr. Redzic; correct?
21 A. The Serbian Democratic Party made us believe that with all the
22 victims, all the destructions, that it was them who did that, and it just
23 confirmed my belief.
24 Q. Okay. So that's your belief, and it colours your evidence,
25 doesn't it, Mr. Redzic?
1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I object. I think that's first
2 argumentative, and the witness, secondly, cannot be expected to --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, you've made your point.
4 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Now, going on to page 56 of your testimony yesterday, you indicate
6 that, as part of this conversation that you were told about from people
7 leaving Vlasenica that the soldiers said to the people: When we leave
8 Vlasenica, it will be very difficult for you. They told them that they
9 would leave all the weapons and artillery in Vlasenica and that is when
10 they could expect a catastrophe. They themselves didn't know what sort of
11 scale of conflict to expect.
12 Do you remember giving that evidence yesterday?
13 A. Yes. You can find that in paragraph 28 as well.
14 Q. What, that the soldiers said to expect a catastrophe?
15 A. The Novi Sad Corps, soldiers from the Novi Sad Corps.
16 Q. Okay. Show me where in paragraph 28 it says: "When we leave
17 Vlasenica it will be very difficult for you, and you can expect a
18 catastrophe." Show me where it says that in paragraph 28.
19 A. I'll read a sentence to you: "The soldiers told us that they were
20 surprised when Muslims greeted them and offered them coffee and cakes.
21 When the soldiers left, they left all the equipment to the Serbs in
22 Vlasenica, including tanks and all the other weaponry."
23 Q. Okay. But nothing about: When we leave Vlasenica, it will be
24 very difficult for you, and nothing about a catastrophe; correct?
25 A. Yes. But it doesn't imply that I'm not allowed to add
1 subsequently what I left out from my statement.
2 Q. Okay. And ten years after you gave the statement, you have a
3 better memory; correct?
4 MR. TIEGER: If that's a follow-on or a paraphrase of what the
5 witness said, it's inaccurate.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas --
7 MS. LOUKAS: I withdraw it, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The witness said that he added something he didn't
9 tell at that time. He didn't say anything about it. But here again it's
10 clear to this Chamber that the hearsay information he provided yesterday
11 from what he heard from other people that were left in Vlasenica did not
12 contain in his statement certain elements that were part of his testimony
13 of yesterday. You made that clear to the Chamber.
14 MS. LOUKAS: There's just one further matter I want to go to in
15 relation to comparisons between the statement and the transcript, Your
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
18 MS. LOUKAS:
19 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, yesterday you told the Court Mr. Stanic always
20 said that things were no longer in his hands, that they simply had to obey
21 orders from higher levels, and everybody knows what higher levels were, so
22 all the orders were handed down from higher levels to the municipal level,
23 and at the municipal level these orders were carried out. That's at
24 page 63, lines 14 to 18, for the benefit of the Court and the Prosecution.
25 You remember giving that evidence yesterday, Mr. Redzic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Show me where in your statement you indicate that
3 Mr. Stanic was always saying to you that things were no longer in his
4 hands and that they simply had to obey orders from higher levels. Tell me
5 where in your statement it says that, your statement from ten years ago.
6 A. Probably it is not in the statement. However, ten years ago, when
7 I gave my statement, I never realised that the international community
8 would be so serious about this whole situation and that one day I would
9 appear as a witness in this courtroom to testify about the events in
10 Vlasenica. At that time, I did not think that all of these details were
11 necessary. I did not believe, I couldn't hope that this problem would one
12 day be dealt with so seriously and that I would be sitting here today.
13 Q. The United Nations had set up the International Criminal Tribunal
14 for the former Yugoslavia when you gave your statement.
15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I mean, these are argumentative points.
16 Counsel can make these in closing if she wishes, but it doesn't really
17 serve any purpose here to remind the witness that he was interviewed by
18 representatives --
19 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask the witness to take his headphones off for
20 a second.
21 Ms. Loukas, in all investigations, you'll find that the focus will
22 be on what is most relevant at that time. The mere fact that even if the
23 witness would have been aware at that time that the ICTY was created, it
24 doesn't say that specific focus on vertical lines, as we call them, and
25 it's clear that in this case vertical lines are of major importance, that
1 a similar focus should have been at that time already on that issue, and
2 especially not that a witness should have been aware of the outstanding
3 relevance of especially those issues. You made your point that the
4 statement does not contain any information on that, but it's of no use to
5 enter into a kind of argument with the witness whether he should have been
6 aware at that time because the ICTY was created already, that he should
7 have included in his answers such elements which might not even be clear
8 to those investigators interviewing him at that time. So I do not mind at
9 all, the Chamber does not mind that you demonstrate that there are
10 elements in his testimony of yesterday which do not appear, but the
11 argument you enter into with the witness is of no assistance to the
13 Please proceed.
14 MS. LOUKAS: I understand that, Your Honour. But I would make one
15 point in relation to what Your Honour has just indicated. This is a
16 witness statement that does contain questions of the chain of command, and
17 that appears in the very first page of the statement.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm not saying that it's totally absent and
19 that no one was aware of the relevance of it, but I think I indicated that
20 the focus on it, which does not mean that the awareness was totally
21 absent, that vertical lines could be of some importance. And of course, I
22 do understand that especially the chain of command was of importance, but
23 that was -- you're referring to the bottom of page 2 and the top of
24 page 3.
25 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed I am, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I do not mind if you would deal with the
2 matter, but not by putting to the witness that the awareness of the
3 existence of the ICTY should have, well, made him more cautious in certain
4 specific respects. So I'm not preventing you from putting questions, but
5 it's just the way in which you do it.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I note the time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MS. LOUKAS: It's probably an appropriate juncture for a break,
10 Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Some time for reflection during the break, for
12 the Chamber as well, of course.
13 Ms. Loukas, could you give us an indication on how much time you'd
14 still need?
15 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I'm actually just about to finish.
16 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would it take you to finish? Because
17 if you say, well, I could finish in some seven minutes, then we could
18 continue and have a break then.
19 MS. LOUKAS: I wouldn't finish in seven minutes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You would not finish. No. Then we'll have a break
21 now. We will -- perhaps the witness could put his headphones on again.
23 Mr. Redzic, we'll have a break for almost half an hour. We'll
24 resume at 11.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you may proceed.
3 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, you'll be happy to know we're moving away from
5 your statement onto another topic. Just in relation to what you've
6 referred to in your evidence of fears that people in your local community
7 had in relation to Muslims. I just wanted to ask you some questions about
8 Izetbegovic. Are you with me?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, you're aware, of course, that on a visit to Turkey in July
11 1991 that Izetbegovic, Mr. Izetbegovic, asked to join the organisation of
12 Islamic countries?
13 A. Well, I'm not familiar with the details.
14 Q. But you are familiar, of course, that Mr. Izetbegovic asked to
15 join the organisation of Islamic countries in 1991?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You're not aware of that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Are you aware of the fact that Mr. Izetbegovic stated two years
20 before the outbreak of war that the Muslims did not yet comprise a big
21 enough majority to make Bosnia a Muslim state? Are you aware of that
23 A. No, I'm not.
24 Q. You're not aware of that either. Okay. Were the people in your
25 local community aware of that, to your knowledge?
1 A. No.
2 Q. And were you aware that in parliament, Mr. Izetbegovic, on
3 February the 27th, 1991, told parliament that, and I quote: "I would
4 sacrifice peace for a sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina, but for that peace in
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I would not sacrifice sovereignty." Are you aware of
7 A. Well, superficially. But I know about someone else who said that
8 a people would disappear from that area, and that occurred at the same
10 Q. I understand you've already given evidence of that, but I'm asking
11 you about this statement, Mr. Redzic. Are you aware of whether or not
12 people in your local community were aware of that statement by
13 Mr. Izetbegovic?
14 A. Well, one could see what one could see on television, if that is
15 what he said. It's not at all a problem, if there are public appearances,
16 to know what was said at that session.
17 Q. And were you aware of a rally in Velika Kladusa -- an SDA rally in
18 September 1990? Were you aware there was an SDA rally in Velika Kladusa
19 in September 1990?
20 A. A pre-electoral rally before the multi-party elections.
21 Q. Exactly, yes. And were you aware that there were hundreds of
22 green flags, people in Arabic dress, and portraits of Saddam Hussein at
23 that rally?
24 A. No, I'm not, and that is incorrect. There were religious flags
25 there, and I believe that that's not a problem of any kind.
1 Q. So you weren't aware of people chanting "long live Saddam Hussein"
2 and "we are going to kill Vuk Draskovic"?
3 A. I'm not personally aware of that. I wasn't present at that
4 assembly, and I couldn't go into the details of that matter.
5 Q. If I were to tell you that that came from the Netherlands
6 Institute for War Documentation, would you disagree with it?
7 MR. TIEGER: I object, Your Honour. The witness has clearly
8 indicated the fact that he wasn't present at the rally, doesn't know what
9 was said there. I'm not at all sure what the point is of getting him to
10 discuss the contents of --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, he did say that he was not personally
12 aware because he wasn't present, and he couldn't go into the details of
13 that matter. There seems to be an admission of some knowledge of what
14 happened over there.
15 Ms. Loukas, are we listening to background testimony or are we
16 listening to anything else?
17 MS. LOUKAS: I have just one final question in relation to --
18 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just asking you. I mean, from the evidence we
19 heard until [Realtime transcript read in error "not guilty"] now, it is
20 clear that strong words might have been uttered by many people in that
21 area and that might have some relevance to understand the background of
22 the conflict. But, of course, this case is not about an exchange of
24 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, therefore, I'm wondering, are we listening
1 to background information to better understand that fear might have been
2 on all sides? But again, this case is not only about fear, but also about
3 other things that may have happened.
4 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: So I'm wondering, is this background information or
6 does it play a different role in the Defence position?
7 MS. LOUKAS: Well, of course, Your Honour, number one, it's in
8 terms of setting context, which is important.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear.
10 MS. LOUKAS: And in fact my last question to the witness will just
11 about, to his knowledge, whether people in his community were aware of
12 this event.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Then if that's your last question, then
14 it's not of any importance to go into further details. Please put that
15 last question, but put it in a factual way. Because earlier when you
16 asked the witness whether he was aware of something, then your next
17 question was whether his people in his village were aware of that. Of
18 course, if you are aware of the awareness of other people, that results in
19 your own awareness as well. So therefore, the question was -- didn't make
20 much sense. But here, perhaps you could ask the witness whether he has
21 any reason to assume that other people were aware and what that reason
22 would have been.
24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me. Before I proceed, one
25 clarification to the transcript. On page 39, line 8, it reads: "Heard
1 not guilty now." I believe the Court said: "Heard until now."
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Sometimes it seems that I'm not speaking
3 clearly enough to have my words properly reflected in the transcript. But
4 I blame myself for that.
5 Please put your last question for the witness.
6 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Certainly, Your Honour. But I'm happy to leave
7 it as not guilty, I must say, without correcting the transcript.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, you know that the truth is guiding
10 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. Indeed I do.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Redzic, my final question to you is -- I'm just looking
12 for Your Honour's formulation, Your Honour. Now, just in relation to this
13 rally, were you aware of people in the municipality of Vlasenica being
14 aware of this rally in Velika Kladusa?
15 A. Well, probably on the basis of what they could see on television
16 and on the basis of what they could read in the newspapers.
17 Q. Yes. Thank you. No further questions, Mr. Redzic.
18 A. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Tieger, is there any need to
20 re-examine the witness?
21 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions to you.
23 Questioned by the Court:
24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 [Interpretation] Witness, I would like to ask you two or three
1 minor questions. My first question is about what you called paramilitary
2 formations in the Milici area. You said, and I quote to you in English:
3 [In English] "Paramilitary units had already been formed at around
5 [Interpretation] And further on, you said: [In
6 English]: "Chetnik insignia."
7 [Interpretation] Do you know who formed these units?
8 A. Well, the leaders of the SDS parties. They did this at a higher
9 level. And they were the founders and they formed the paramilitary units.
10 They also acted outside the former JNA. So it was the SDS party that
11 formed them. Because if a state institution had formed them, it would
12 have been necessary to do this through the Presidency of Bosnia and
13 Herzegovina and through governmental organisations. Since this was never
14 done at the level of the state, it was the SDS that did everything, took
15 all steps.
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] If I have understood you
17 correctly, Mr. Stanic was elected by the SDS party as president of the
18 Municipal Assembly.
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Nevertheless, when you informed
21 him about the delivery of arms to the population in the municipality, you
22 said, and I quote you: [In English]: "Was surprised." [Interpretation]
23 And further on you said [In English]: "...visit areas. He asked the
24 people, and the answer was that they were afraid to be attacked by the
1 [Interpretation] End of quote. Please allow me to finish. Am I
2 take to it that Mr. Stanic was surprised because he wasn't aware of the
3 fact you said that it was the SDS that was in fact in charge of these
4 units and of the delivery of arms, but Mr. Stanic seemed surprised. And
5 when he was informed of the delivery of arms to the population, he seemed
6 quite surprised. How do you reconcile these two factors? Because, on the
7 one hand, he was a member of the SDS party, and, on the other hand, he was
8 surprised by the fact that there were weapons delivered and there were
9 units that existed. These units existed in the surroundings of the
11 A. Well, I don't know what I said earlier on, but I do know that
12 Mr. Stanic was not surprised at any point in time, because he himself
13 participated in arming the people. It was his task as the president of
14 the Municipal Assembly and as a member of the Executive Committee of the
15 SDS. Because he was fully informed of everything and he knew exactly
16 which villages had to be provided with certain weapons. He knew how many
17 weapons they needed. He knew exactly what they needed. He wasn't
18 surprised when I visited the villages, et cetera. But I, together with
19 him --
20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Allow me to interrupt you,
21 Witness. You said, and I quote you: [In English] "He was surprised and
22 asked me where I obtained this information from. [Interpretation] End of
24 A. Yes. I understand that now. The problem was that when Serbs from
25 faraway Serbian villages came to see Stanic, Mr. Stanic wasn't in his
1 office, and the secretary directed them to me.
2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation]. No. That's another issue.
3 I'm talking about a particular incident. When you said that he was
4 surprised to hear that the population was armed and that the population
5 was being provided with arms. But this is something else, and you
6 correctly said that you were taken to meet Mr. Stanic and you were told
7 why weapons weren't being delivered. But these are two different issues,
8 aren't they?
9 A. Well, I don't know. I don't believe that Stanic was surprised at
10 any point in time. He could have pretended to be surprised, but if he
11 hadn't been aware of everything, that would have been incomprehensible.
12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But Mr. Stanic was a member of
13 the SDS party, wasn't he?
14 A. Mr. Stanic was appointed by the SDS as president of the Municipal
15 Assembly of Vlasenica. He was a member of the Executive Committee, of the
16 Municipal Committee, of the Assembly Committee. I think he was a member
17 of the Assembly at the level of the Assembly within the SDS in
18 Republika Srpska.
19 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. To go back to the question
20 that I put to you, first of all, concerning the fact that he was
21 surprised, that Mr. Stanic was surprised. Would you like to elaborate on
22 this fact? Was he surprised by your knowledge, was he surprised by the
23 events that were taking place, or was he surprised by the fact that you
24 were in the know, so to speak, that you knew about this?
25 A. Well, probably because I had information from the field and I was
1 familiar with the situation. I knew as much as he did. And it was not
2 clear to him where such information had been obtained from.
3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll now move on to
4 another subject. It has to do with a meeting you had with Mr. Stanic in
5 private. If I have understood this correctly, you went to see him, you
6 were alone with him, and you said that Mr. Stanic told you that it was
7 very dangerous for him to meet you because you had already been accused by
8 a military court. Have I understood your testimony correctly?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You were accused or you were
12 A. An indictment was brought in October 1991. The trial was
13 scheduled on a number of occasions, and on the 13th of December, 1992 --
14 1991, I was put on trial in my absence. I was represented by counsel
15 Balijagic. He told me I had been sentenced to ten years hard labour. I
16 never received that document because the war then broke out, et cetera.
17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] You were in fact accused, you
18 intervened to prevent a certain brigade from setting off to Kunace
19 [phoen], in Croatia?
20 A. Yes, exactly. The Vlasenica brigade, the light brigade, which
21 consisted of 1.200 troops, 80 per cent of them were Muslims, Bosniaks,
22 this brigade was mobilised, although it didn't have the right to be
23 mobilised because the Presidency of Yugoslavia and the Presidency of
24 Bosnia and Herzegovina hadn't reached an agreement. They mobilised the
25 troops, took them to Han Pijesak, and then transported them to Zaluzani
1 near Banja Luka, and they were supposed to be transported to Slavonija, to
2 Vukovar and to Okucani and to Osijek from there. I left with six or seven
3 lorries with women and children, and I returned 90 per cent of those
4 troops from Zaluzani to Vlasenica. And naturally, from Banja Luka, I had
5 to engage, I had to get hold of about ten new buses.
6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But you represent the civilian
7 authority, you represented the civilian authority, and this brigade was
8 under military orders. It was directed and had to obey military orders?
9 A. But at that time, the army didn't have the competence to mobilise
10 in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Not up until the time that an agreement was
11 reached at the level of the former Yugoslavia and at the level of Bosnia
12 and Herzegovina. So I informed [as interpreted] the Presidency of Bosnia
13 and Herzegovina, the government and the ministry for national defence that
14 the JNA shouldn't mobilise anyone until these two levels, the state and
15 republican level, reached an agreement. It was my task, because of the
16 women and children, to go and try and find a solution, to return the
17 soldiers to the field, to the factories, et cetera. Because the Bosniak
18 people, the Muslims, didn't want a war. They didn't want to have to kill
19 Serbs and Croats, anyone else, within Yugoslavia or outside the boundaries
20 of Yugoslavia.
21 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So you intervened with the Muslim
22 members of the brigade and you persuaded them not to take part in this and
23 to return to their homes or to desert, so to speak.
24 A. Well, I wasn't on my own. There were six or seven buses. There
25 were women, children, fathers. We had a negotiation team and we asked to
1 speak to representatives. Commander Milosevic was there. He was the
2 commander of the entire garrison in Zaluzani. We discussed the fact that
3 it wasn't possible for the troops to return, et cetera, and my duty [as
4 interpreted] was to prevent this from happening in the territory of
5 Vlasenica municipality. But after the population was warned, the troops
6 did respond. Many of those inhabitants had trust. They believed that it
7 was the former JNA. But when they came to Zaluzani and when they saw who
8 the troops were, there were 7.000 or 8.000 soldiers there, 80 per cent of
9 them were bearded, intoxicated, they had cockades, they were singing
10 nationalist songs, it's an area of about ten kilometres, where there were
11 tanks, Howitzers, other forms of artillery that have been deployed, and
12 when someone sees such things, it is clear that it wasn't possible to find
13 a solution in Bosnia and Herzegovina. All that was possible was for force
14 to be used by a certain party. This is something that was a well-known
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And my very last question
17 concerns your intervention in order to transport the Muslim population and
18 help them to leave Vlasenica. I must admit that I didn't understand what
19 you said very well. Did this just concern the people detained in Susica
20 or did it concern people living in the villages, in the town, who
21 contacted you to intervene to obtain transport for them out of the
23 A. Vlasenica, as a town, had already been evacuated. All those who
24 wanted to leave had already left. However, people in the villages
25 believed that they were not guilty of anything, that they were not engaged
1 in any politics, that they were not interested in who was in power, and
2 their sole concern was their own survival. They still remained in their
3 villages. However, the time arrived when the Serb unit entered all these
4 villages. They captured all the men. They evacuated the women and
5 children to Susica. At that moment, Susica was a control point for the
6 women, children, and the elderly. From there, they went to Kladanj. As
7 for the males, they remained in the Susica camp. At that moment, the
8 entire Vlasenica municipality was covered by the Serb units. All the
9 villages were encircled. The women, children, and men were captured.
10 Those who tried to run away were killed immediately. Those who were not
11 killed were brought to Susica, and according to some of their criteria,
12 women, children, and elderly males were transported to Kladanj, and the
13 males were kept in the camp. Most of them never arrived in the free
14 territory of the Federation, and up to this day, nobody knows the
15 whereabouts of these people who remained detained in the Susica camp.
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] My question was: Did you receive
17 the calls of the detained people? Did they ask for your intervention?
18 Could they contact you from the detention camp? Could they ask for your
19 intervention once they were detained?
20 A. No, of course not. They did not have anything to eat or to sleep,
21 let alone having the right to talk to anybody. The detainees had no
22 rights whatsoever. They didn't have the right to food, they didn't have
23 the right to sleep. And people who spent some time there know best how it
25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But who contacted you, and from
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
2 A. There were people from Vlasenica who enjoyed some trust. There
3 were people in mixed marriages, Muslims married to Serbs, and there was
4 still a flow of communication. And they feared for the lives of their
5 closest relatives and they intervened, and for as long as I could
6 communicate with Mr. Stanic and Mr. Drakulic, I asked them to help these
7 people get out to the areas in the Federation.
8 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.
9 Thank you, Mr. President.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Redzic, I also have one question for you. You
12 testified yesterday that Mr. Stanic told you: Muslims will be given Tuzla
13 and Zenica, these two enclaves, that he told you personally: Don't go to
14 Sarajevo. There will be a blood battle there.
15 Did Mr. Stanic tell you where he got his information from that he
16 passed on to you about Tuzla and Zenica and about what would happen in
18 A. Realistically speaking, one could not expect him to say where his
19 orders came from, but it is not difficult to assume.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I only asked you whether he told you and
21 whether it would be difficult to guess is a totally different matter. But
22 I do understand your answer correctly that he didn't tell you what was the
23 source of his information.
24 A. No, we didn't discuss that. This was very late, just before I was
25 about to leave Vlasenica myself.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it answers my question.
2 Mr. Redzic, first I'll ask the parties whether there's any need to
3 put additional questions to the witness from the Bench.
4 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Questions put by the Bench.
6 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, just briefly, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: There will be one or even more questions by
8 Ms. Loukas to be put to you, Mr. Redzic.
9 MS. LOUKAS:
10 Q. Mr. Redzic, this information in relation to Tuzla and Zenica that
11 you say was conveyed by Mr. Stanic and this question of there being a
12 blood battle in Sarajevo. Of course, these matters are not contained in
13 your statement of 19th of October, 1994, are they?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, that's not a matter that arises out of
15 the questions of the Bench.
16 MS. LOUKAS: Well, it's clear that they don't, and Your Honours
17 will have the material before you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I just said that it's not something that
19 came up as a result of the questions of the Bench. It could have been put
20 to the witness in cross-examination.
21 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour seemed uninterested in the
22 contradictions, and I --
23 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm not uninterested. I gave you full
24 opportunity to deal with whatever contradiction or even apparent
25 inconsistency. But it's not something that came up as a result of the
1 questions of the Bench.
2 MS. LOUKAS: That's fine, Your Honour. I can just tender the
3 statement, and Your Honour will see that that is new information.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any other question you'd like to put?
5 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour. But what I could deal with at this
6 stage is the fact that Ms. Cmeric tells me that there are certain issues
7 of translation in relation to some of the questions asked by your brother
8 Judge El Mahdi which I should put on the record now whilst the witness is
9 still here, I feel.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
11 MS. LOUKAS: At page 45, line 20, I think what appears in the
12 transcript is "I informed the Presidency." That should be "I was informed
13 by the Presidency."
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just try to find it. One second. Yes. Well,
15 at least it's -- you suggested it would be the proper translation, that --
16 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. That's my understanding from Ms. Cmeric, who of
17 course speaks the language.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MS. LOUKAS: And at page 46, at line 10, the statement was, as in
20 the transcript: "My duty was to prevent." There's a little bit left out
21 there, and that is: "My duty that I was bound to by the
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency was to prevent."
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say there's a part missing in the
25 MS. LOUKAS: I just thought I'd deal with those matters I think
1 whilst the witness is still here.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any -- I don't think there would be
3 any need to seek verification, because otherwise the parties would have to
4 go through the transcripts and see whether the original -- perhaps we
5 could seek confirmation of the correctness.
6 Mr. Redzic, you testified, in response to a question of Judge
7 El Mahdi, that: "Not up until the time that an agreement was reached at
8 the level of the former Yugoslavia and at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
9 that there was no competence for mobilisation." And then your next line
10 was about the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Did you inform them,
11 or were you informed by the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the
12 government and the ministry for national defence that the JNA shouldn't
13 mobilise anyone? Were you informed by them or did you inform them?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Presidency of Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina informed all the municipalities that there should be a ban on
16 any further mobilisation until an agreement is reached between Yugoslavia
17 and the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And when mobilisation was
18 carried out illegally, I informed --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I stopped you perhaps too early. Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to say that after
21 mobilisation it was my duty to inform the Presidency, the government, and
22 the minister for defence about the situation that had happened and that
23 was in disagreement with the dispatches previously sent from them to us.
24 In a nutshell, this mobilisation was against their orders.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So you received the information that they shouldn't
1 mobilise, and you reported back that they were mobilising, contrary to the
2 instructions. That's clear.
3 Then the next issue is also a matter of translation. You said it
4 was -- at least, it reads in our transcript that it was your duty to
5 prevent, and our attention has been drawn to the fact that your actual
6 words have been that it was your duty -- that you were bound by the
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency to prevent, so that it was not just your
8 duty, but you were duty-bound by the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is
9 that what you said?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So these matters have been clarified now. Since the
12 witness is still there, Mr. Tieger, is there any -- because we couldn't
13 ask any questions any more once the witness has left. I don't know
14 whether you would have any knowledge about that, but about the
15 transcripts. One is date and the other one was a correction of the --
16 seems to be a wrong English version of the...
17 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour. I don't think that's anything that
18 requires the witness's presence, and in any event, I'm not prepared to
19 address questions that would be of assistance in that regard at this
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, therefore, there's no need to deal with
22 that immediately in the presence of the witness.
23 Mr. Redzic, I'd like to thank you very much for having come from
24 far away to The Hague and to have answered questions of both parties and
25 of the Bench. And I wish you a safe trip home again. You are excused.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and goodbye.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We could deal with the exhibits at this moment, but
4 the Chamber prefers to receive a new version of 259B.1 before giving any
5 decision on the admission into evidence of the exhibits. But we'd rather
6 not let that wait for a couple of months. So, Mr. Tieger, if you would
7 please deal with the matter this afternoon and come back to it tomorrow
9 Then I'd like to ask to the Prosecution whether it is ready to
10 call its next witness.
11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, we are ready to proceed. I should
12 note at this time that the Prosecution -- that this witness will be led by
13 Carolyn Edgerton, who is now at counsel table.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Welcome in the courtroom, Ms. Edgerton. The
15 next witness, there are no protective measures asked for, and your next
16 witness will be Kadira Brkovic; is that correct?
17 MS. EDGERTON: That's correct, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Madam Usher, may I request you to bring
19 the witness into the courtroom.
20 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, in anticipation of a possible equality
21 of arms argument in light of our new addition to the Prosecution team, I
22 should advise the Court that Mr. Resch, who presented our last witness
23 before we broke for the August recess has left the team and gone back to
24 the United States to work in private practice. So there's no additional
25 gain to the Prosecution team.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's not try to compare the number of people
2 involved in Prosecution and Defence.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I must say, I like to.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. It was an understatement,
6 Ms. Loukas.
7 Good morning, Ms. Brkovic.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
9 JUDGE ORIE: From your answer, I do understand that you hear me in
10 a language you understand. Ms. Brkovic, before giving evidence in this
11 Court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
12 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
13 the truth. May I invite you to make that declaration, of which of text
14 will be handed to you now by Madam Usher.
15 WITNESS: KADIRA BRKOVIC
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
18 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.
20 Ms. Brkovic, you will first be examined by counsel for the
22 Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Examined by Ms. Edgerton:
25 Q. Good morning, Ms. Brkovic. How are you this morning?
1 A. Good morning. Very well, thank you.
2 Q. Ms. Brkovic, before we begin in detail, I'd like to get you to
3 tell us a little bit about yourself, if that's all right. You were born
4 in Plamenice, in Kljuc municipality; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You're married and you have three daughters?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You've been living in the village of Prhovo in Kljuc municipality
9 since about 1977; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, Mrs. Brkovic, I'd just like to get you to look at a map
12 that's going to appear on the computer monitor in front of you.
13 MS. EDGERTON: And Your Honours, if it could be given a number,
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
16 MS. EDGERTON:
17 Q. Do you see the map, Mrs. Brkovic?
18 JUDGE ORIE: I'd first like to have the map be given a number.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P260.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
23 Q. Do you see the map, Mrs. Brkovic?
24 A. Yes, I do, but I need to put my glasses on.
25 Q. Did you bring them with you today?
1 A. Yes. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Can you identify the village of Prhovo on that map, Mrs. Brkovic?
3 A. Yes, I can.
4 Q. And how far do you see the village of Prhovo to be from the town
5 of Kljuc?
6 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, if I might just interrupt at this point.
7 I think that the witness is a little bit too close to the microphones,
8 which will create problems with the translation and the hearing.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I heard that there was some technical problem.
10 You don't have to worry that much about speaking into the
11 microphone, Ms. Brkovic. It's just if you speak that one or both of the
12 microphones will catch your words anyhow.
13 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I'm thinking perhaps it might be more
14 useful for the witness to actually have the map in front of her rather
15 than sort of going up to the screen --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There are two ways of doing that. First of
17 all, to give the witness a copy of the map, a hard copy. And the other
18 way of doing it could also be to enlarge a bit the picture on the screen.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.
21 MS. EDGERTON:
22 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, how far is the village of Prhovo from the town of
24 A. Ten kilometres.
25 Q. And is there a road link between the two places?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you give us an idea of how big your village is? How many
3 houses, perhaps, are located in your village?
4 A. 45, I believe, thereabouts.
5 Q. Was that the case in 1992?
6 A. Yes. In 1992, at the moment, there are not as many. They have
7 been destroyed.
8 Q. And in 1992, do you have an idea of approximately how many people
9 were living in each house?
10 A. In every house, there were four or five or even more family
12 Q. Now, the village of Prhovo itself, is that a Muslim village or a
13 Serb village?
14 A. In the middle, it was Muslim, and around this centre, there were
15 Serbian suburbs, also called Prhovo. Those were Serbian houses.
16 Q. Now, as I said earlier, the time we're going to talk about is late
17 May of 1992. At that time, is it correct that you were alone in the
18 village with your three daughters?
19 A. Yes. Yes. I was alone at home, but there were other people in
20 the village.
21 Q. And where was your husband at that time?
22 A. My husband was in Germany at the time.
23 Q. Now, if we can go to approximately one week before the attack on
24 your village. Do you recall anything unusual happening at that time?
25 A. I remember two neighbours of mine came and told me that they saw
1 the army by Nikola Popovic's house, and then a lorry drove through the
2 village of Prhovo, towards Peci.
3 Q. Where does Nikola Popovic live, or where did he live at that time?
4 A. He lived in his house, a kilometre and a half from the village of
5 Prhovo itself.
6 Q. And could you tell the Court which direction Peci is in relation
7 to Prhovo village. Perhaps I can assist by saying: Is it north, south,
8 east, or west?
9 A. I can show it on the map.
10 Q. Perhaps we can have the -- it might be best to put the map on the
11 ELMO, Your Honour?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we could do so. Well, of course it's on our
13 screen anyhow, but is the direction of any specific interest? Because, of
14 course, the Court sees where Peci is in relation to -- so unless there is
15 any specific relevance for asking the witness whether it was north or
16 west, we see where it is on the map.
17 MS. EDGERTON: That's fine, then, Your Honour. Thank you.
18 Q. Now, Mrs. Brkovic, you mentioned a lorry driving through the town.
19 A. The village.
20 Q. Did you have occasion after that to see any soldiers coming
21 through the town, the village?
22 A. I saw them in the lorry. I saw them wearing uniforms, carrying
23 arms, and I remember it was a Saturday when this lorry drove through.
24 Q. And Mrs. Brkovic, can we move forward in time to one week later.
25 Could you tell us what happened then.
1 A. A week later, we saw a fire and smoke in Plamenice. A few shells
2 exploded some 500 metres away from us. Those were either shells or some
3 sort of a loud explosion. We were in our houses until the soldiers came.
4 They asked us to surrender weapons. I didn't have any weapons to
5 surrender. I was in my house with my daughters. And I heard somebody
6 saying: "Surrender. We won't do anything to you." And one neighbour was
7 shouting: "Get out of your houses. They are setting houses on fire."
8 We didn't know which houses would be set on fire, so I left my
9 house. They started gathering us in one place, and they said they
10 wouldn't do anything to us, for us to gather in that one place.
11 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, if I could just stop you for a second and go back
12 over some of the things that you've talked about. It sounds like there's
13 many things happening at the same time. Could you make it clear to the
14 Court what did you first notice going on?
15 A. First we noticed people gathering, and when this guy said that
16 houses were being set on fire, we first wanted to hide in a cellar. And
17 then they started shooting after us, and then we started walking towards a
18 little forest. The women and the children. There were some 15 of us
20 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, where were your daughters at that time?
21 A. My daughters were with me, the three daughters of mine.
22 Q. So you and your three daughters went to the forest; is that
24 A. No. The first evening when things happened, when we started
25 walking, it was on a Sunday. Actually, it was a Saturday, Saturday
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 evening. I can't remember the date. And then my two daughters, with my
2 brother-in-law and his wife, went to the forest. The third daughter, who
3 has weak legs, was afraid to go. She couldn't go. I tried to convince
4 her to go, because the other two had already hid in the forest. When we
5 arrived there, some six or seven of us altogether, there were people
6 shooting after us, shooting at our backs. We were quiet. Some of us
7 cried. The two daughters were not with me. The third daughter was with
8 me. A neighbour of ours went to a Serbian village to inquire what would
9 happen to us, what were they doing to us. And when he arrived there, they
10 told him: "You shouldn't hide in the forest. You should go back home."
11 Two guys of Serbian ethnic origin arrived with him, and when we saw them,
12 we left the forest. We thought they would kill us anyway. So we went to
13 a little meadow. We saw that they were armed. They told us: "Go to your
14 homes. We won't do anything to you."
15 We believed them. We spent the night in Fehret Hadzic's house
16 with my two daughters. There was some other women there as well.
17 Q. Can I stop you there, Mrs. Brkovic. So you were in the forest for
18 some time. You went out of the forest after some Serbs from a
19 neighbouring settlement had assured you it was okay to go back to your
20 homes; is that correct?
21 A. Yes. They said we would be safe in our houses.
22 Q. When you got back to your village, what did you see?
23 A. It was night when we returned that night. It was dark.
24 Q. Now, I need you to perhaps slow down a little bit so that we can
25 go through each thing step by step, if that's okay. Now --
1 A. When we returned, we saw a house on fire, and that was on the
2 following day, when they beat a few people to death. That was on a
3 Saturday. There were some people with swollen heads. Their backs were
4 red. And the others were covered in blood, with injuries on their heads.
5 They had beaten up five or six people, and they had set a house on fire.
6 We stayed there. We extinguished the fire, and this is where we stayed to
7 spend the night there. And then there was Sunday. On that day --
8 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, if we can just stop you again. So we've gone
9 quickly through two days at the end of May, haven't we?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Brkovic, may I ask you the following: I fully
11 understand that you want to tell your story. It is important for this
12 Chamber to sometimes hear a bit more details about one aspect, a little
13 bit less details on other aspects. Would you carefully listen to the
14 question and try to focus your answer on the specific question that has
15 been put to you. So when you testified that you arrived back in your
16 village at night, I would expect Ms. Edgerton to ask you what you would
17 see the next morning. Then tell us what you saw the next morning. But if
18 she asks you what you did the next morning, tell us that you got up and
19 stayed in the house or went out of the house. So try very much to
20 concentrate on the specific questions put to you by Ms. Edgerton, although
21 I fully understand that you would like nothing else than to just tell
22 whatever happened to you. But then we might miss some details. So if you
23 could try to concentrate carefully on the specific questions. Yes?
24 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
25 MS. EDGERTON:
1 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, now --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, please.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry.
5 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, on this second day, you've said you went to the
6 forest again and saw a burning house when you came out. Can you tell us
7 why you went to the forest again?
8 A. Well, they were setting fire to houses. That's when we went to
9 the forest. We went to the shelter, to take shelter there. They shot
10 after us. And that's when we went to the forest.
11 Q. Now, Mrs. Brkovic, is this the first day or the second day?
12 A. That was the second time. I didn't say that correctly.
13 Q. So on the second day, who were you in the forest with?
14 A. I was with my daughters. There was one of my daughters there. In
15 fact, two daughters, with my brother-in-law, and the sister-in-law. One
16 of them was with me. That was the evening on which they were cleaning the
17 forest. That was the first day. That was the first time we went to the
19 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, the first time you went to the forest, you were with
20 your daughters and your brother-in-law and his family; is that correct?
21 A. The first time, yes. My brother-in-law didn't go the first day.
22 The first day was when they came to take the weapons and when they wanted
23 to set fire to the houses, when they started shooting at us, that's when I
24 went to the forest.
25 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, you say on the first day they came to take the
1 weapons. Can you tell us now who came to take the weapons.
2 A. Yes. I didn't see them, because I didn't even go to the village.
3 There were a lot of them. There were vehicles. That's what we heard when
4 we were in the forest. They would just pass by. But I don't know how
5 many of them there were.
6 Q. So how do you know, then, that they came to take the weapons,
7 Mrs. Brkovic?
8 A. I know that they called out over a megaphone and asked us to hand
9 over the weapons. They said that they wouldn't do anything to us.
10 Q. Once you heard that announcement over the megaphone, did you or
11 your family do anything?
12 A. We then went out of the house. We were thinking of going there
13 when we heard the shooting. That's when we went to the forest. We set
14 off in the direction of the shelter. They fired at us, and we then set
15 off in the direction of the forest.
16 Q. You stayed in the forest, then, for some time that first day; is
17 that right?
18 A. [Inaudible]
19 Q. Now, the second day you went to the forest again. Do you remember
20 why you went to the forest the second day?
21 A. The second day we went to the forest and they said that they were
22 cleaning the forest. There was ethnic cleansing. They were cleansing the
23 forest. We heard shooting. That's why we went.
24 Q. So, Mrs. Brkovic, you heard shooting. You went with your family
25 to the forest. And now you've mentioned they were cleaning the forest.
1 When you say they were cleaning the forest, what do you mean?
2 A. They used the term "ethnic cleansing" on the radio. We didn't
3 know what it meant. They didn't want anyone to remain in the forest.
4 They were afraid, or something like that.
5 Q. When you say "they," Mrs. Brkovic, who do you mean?
6 A. Well, I mean they were neighbours of ours there, and they told us
7 everything. On the whole, of Serbian nationality, et cetera.
8 Q. Now, do you remember how long you stayed in the forest the second
10 A. I don't know. Night was falling. But I couldn't tell you what
11 time it was exactly.
12 Q. Now, you mentioned cleaning the forest. While you were in the
13 forest that second day, did you hear or see anything unusual?
14 A. Well, they were passing through the forest and shooting. I think
15 they were lined up every three to five metres.
16 Q. Now, again, when you say "they," who do you mean? What did you
18 A. We didn't see anything at the time. We only heard the shooting.
19 A neighbour went to ask the Serbs, to ask them what we should do, to see
20 whether they would guarantee we could stay there and that there wouldn't
21 be any problems. They said: "Can't you see that it's not safe in the
22 forest? Go home." We believed them and arrived with two other Serbs.
23 They called out to other people who were hiding, to women and children,
24 and told them to go home.
25 Q. Who were these two other Serbs?
1 A. Marinko Suknovic and Stojan Tekic.
2 Q. How did you know them?
3 A. They were neighbours of ours. They lived perhaps a kilometre away
4 from us. Marinko Suknovic did. I had a shop. They would go there. So I
5 knew all of them.
6 Q. So I take it from what you're saying, you saw Marinko Suknovic and
7 Stojan Tekic; is that correct?
8 A. It is.
9 Q. How were they dressed?
10 A. He had a uniform. He had an automatic rifle. Marinko had some
11 sort of work overalls. He had some kind of a weapon. I don't know what
12 kind of a weapon. I know they took something from Sefik Medanovic. He
13 took that weapon on the second day.
14 Q. So after being told this by these two Serbs, did you then return
15 to your village?
16 A. We did.
17 Q. Did you see anything when you got there?
18 A. We spent the night at home. We didn't see anything that night.
19 Q. Now, Mrs. Brkovic, you've mentioned a burning house. Could you
20 place that incident in time for us?
21 A. It was on a Saturday. The last Saturday in May. I don't know the
22 date, though.
23 Q. Do you think it was the first day or the second day or a day
24 following that?
25 A. It was the day after, when the house was set on fire. On
1 Saturday, they beat those people up, and the house was on fire. On
2 Sunday, we spent the night in the house that burnt down. One floor had
3 burnt down. That's where we spent the night. On Monday, that's when they
4 killed everyone and that's the night that we spent there.
5 Q. So the day that they burnt the house and the day that they beat
6 people were the same day; is that correct?
7 A. Those were two days. I couldn't tell you exactly. Yes, when they
8 set fire to the house, they beat the people. It was on the same day.
9 Q. Did you see people with marks of beating on them, Mrs. Brkovic?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Do you know any of those people?
12 A. I do. Camil Medanovic, I know Teufik Medanovic, Sefik Medanovic,
13 Ekrem Hadzic, Tehvid Osmanovic.
14 Q. Can you describe some of the marks of beating that you saw?
15 A. On Camil, I could see that his head was swollen. He had bandaged
16 it. It hurt a lot. His back had been torn. There was a cross made on
17 his back. He said he couldn't even say how much his head hurt. It was
18 terrible to see him.
19 Q. Do you remember where you spent that --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 MS. EDGERTON:
22 Q. Do you remember where you spent that night, Mrs. Brkovic?
23 A. I do.
24 Q. And where was that?
25 A. It was in Fehret Hadzic's house.
1 Q. Were you and your family alone in that house?
2 A. No, we weren't. There were other women there and children. There
3 were a lot of us.
4 Q. And what happened the next day? Can you tell us about that, then?
5 What unusual -- what was the first unusual thing that you saw happen?
6 A. Monday -- on Sunday -- that was the next day. That was a Monday.
7 We then saw the troops arriving. We didn't think they would do anything
8 to us. Naturally, we were in front of our houses as they arrived in the
9 village. We saw a personnel carrier arriving. The women and children
10 took shelter in a shelter. There were a lot of them there, and it wasn't
11 possible to fit any other people in there. My brother-in-law said: "Why
12 are you going to hide? They won't do anything to you." We sat down at a
13 table at my brother-in-law's house when they arrived in the village. They
14 started calling people out. They said: "Come here. We won't do anything
15 to you." When we approached them, they started swearing at us, took us to
16 a house, to Karanfil Osmanovic's house, and lined us up there.
17 Q. Mrs. Brkovic, if I can stop you there, and again we can go back to
18 the beginning of your story for that day. You said you saw troops
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you recall -- do you have any idea how many there were?
22 A. There were a lot of them. I think there were about 2.000 of them.
23 They were so numerous that it was impossible to count them. Some of them
24 arrived in buses. They went around the villages and through the forest.
25 Some arrived in the village.
1 Q. Now, who were these troops?
2 A. They were all dressed. Some of them had stockings on them. Some
3 had camouflage on them. There were all sorts of troops there.
4 Q. Were any of them in uniform?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What kind of uniform?
7 A. There were camouflage uniforms, there were some green uniforms,
8 and so on.
9 Q. Now, you mentioned that they called people to come out; is that
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember how they called people to come out?
13 A. They said: "Come here. We won't do anything to you. Surrender."
14 Everyone headed towards them. We had to. We didn't know what to do.
15 Q. So, Mrs. Brkovic, when you say "everyone," let's talk about the
16 people you were with at that time. Who in your family went towards them?
17 A. My three daughters, myself, my brother-in-law, his wife, the
18 daughter, two daughters, in fact, the son. There were quite a few other
19 neighbours who were in the vicinity. We all set off in that direction.
20 Safet Medanovic was with us, Suvad Hadzic. We were sitting together and
21 we all set off in that direction.
22 Q. What is your brother-in-law's name, Mrs. Brkovic?
23 A. Ilfad Brkovic.
24 Q. Thank you. Now you said they took you to the front of Karanfil
25 Osmanovic's house; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. At this point I'd like to show you another photograph, if I may.
3 If it could receive a number, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar.
5 MS. EDGERTON: And I think you'll be able to see it on the screen
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P261.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, if you would be able to find somewhere
9 in the next five minutes a moment for the next break.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, keeping in mind the evidence to come,
11 perhaps we can have the witness's comments about this photograph and
12 then --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. I leave it up to you, but just to find a
14 moment somewhere in the next five minutes.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
16 Q. Now, you should -- Your Honour should have the photo on your
17 screen, and Mrs. Brkovic has the -- I'm sorry. That's not the correct
18 photograph. This one, 02033317. There we go. Now everyone has the same
19 photograph available to them.
20 Mrs. Brkovic, do you recognise the house that you see in the
21 picture in front of you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could you tell us what that is.
24 A. I can. That was Sefik Medanovic's shop. We were lined up across
25 the road against the wall by a house there. It's 20 or 30 metres from the
1 road. They lined up all the people, the women, and behind them, the
3 Q. So, Mrs. Brkovic, you were lined up across the road from this
4 house, against the house of Karanfil Osmanovic?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, just again, if you can tell me: You say, "They lined us up."
7 When you say "they," who are you talking about?
8 A. I'm talking about the Serbian troops.
9 Q. How do you know the ethnicity of these troops?
10 A. I know that there were no other armed forces there, apart from
12 Q. Perhaps this would be a suitable time for a break, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is. We'll have a break until 10 minutes
14 to 1.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, you may proceed.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Now, Mrs. Brkovic, if we can just go back to the events we were
20 talking about before the break. If I understand it correctly, you, your
21 three daughters, your brother-in-law, his wife, and their two daughters
22 and son, all gathered at the Karanfil Osmanovic house; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, in front of the house.
24 Q. Your brother-in-law's name is Ilfad and your sister-in-law, what
25 was her name?
1 A. Asima.
2 Q. And the names of their children?
3 A. Nisveta, Elvedin, Zehra. Those were their names.
4 Q. And you were describing before the break how you were lined up.
5 You said: They lined up all the people, women and children behind. Is
6 that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, could you be perhaps a little bit more precise? How were the
9 people lined up in relation to the Osmanovic house?
10 A. Yes. They were next to the wall. They all faced the wall.
11 First, men, women, then children. They were all lined along the wall with
12 their hands up, and they were not supposed to look. Their eyes had to be
14 Q. And do you remember who ordered that they weren't supposed to look
15 and their hands should be up?
16 A. I don't know exactly who it was. Somebody from that group said
18 Q. Do you recall hearing such an order given?
19 A. Yes. They were all shouting: "Hands up." And that's what was
21 Q. So people were standing facing the wall. And where exactly were
22 their hands?
23 A. I can show you. Like this.
24 Q. So your hands were clasped behind your head; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 Q. What happened once you were lined up?
2 A. They singled out a woman and also to call people from the wood and
3 tell them that if they didn't leave the forest, that they were the Green
4 Berets, and if they didn't leave the forest, they would all be killed,
5 even the baby that was there. This guy was telling her what she was
6 supposed to repeat after him.
7 Q. Do you remember the name of the woman?
8 A. Sadeta Medanovic.
9 Q. Now, you mentioned the word "Green Berets." To your knowledge,
10 were there any Green Berets operational in the area at that time?
11 A. No. I was not aware of that. I didn't know anything of that.
12 Q. And did something happen after that?
13 A. One guy said: "Our commander is impatient. Take out five people
14 to be shot." And they called the names of Hasan Medanovic, Braco
15 Medanovic. We told them that they were not there, that they were in
16 Germany, and then they started cursing our Ustasha mother, they started
17 telling us that we were lying. And then they pointed their fingers at
18 other men that would be taken out of the line. They were all taken out of
19 the line. Shall I tell you their names?
20 Q. Yes. But if I can just, before you do that, go back a bit. These
21 people called out two men by name; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did they call out any other men by name after that?
24 A. No. No.
25 Q. They were picking people out of the line?
1 A. Yes, in front of us, yes.
2 Q. Now, you were able to, from your post, still see who they picked
3 out of the line?
4 A. Yes. They were standing right in front of me.
5 Q. Who were they?
6 A. Isak Mesic, Halil Medanovic, Izet Hadzic, Hasim Hadzic, and Safet
8 Q. Did something happen to these men?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What happened?
11 A. They said that they would be shot. Then we heard shots and then
12 we were told that they would rest in peace, and we assumed that they were
13 dead. And then they picked out Sefik Medanovic. He was beaten with all
14 sorts of things, whatever they had handy.
15 Q. Now, when you say "they picked out Sefik Medanovic," who picked
16 out Sefik Medanovic?
17 A. I didn't see who picked him. I only recognised Dane Popovic. I
18 recognised his voice, shouting at him. He was cursing his mother. He
19 told him that he was a fucking politician. I saw that there were six of
20 them beating him. They threw him on the ground and he was crying and
21 wailing. He was behind my back, so I could hear his cries clearly. He
22 was beaten to death, without a single bullet being fired.
23 Q. Now, how did you know the voice of one Dane Popovic, and who was
25 A. He was a neighbour of mine. He lived between Plamenice and
1 Prhovo, and I was rather familiar with his voice.
2 Q. Now, did you have occasion later, then, to see the body of Sefik
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. And did you have occasion to later see the bodies of those five
6 men who you spoke about earlier?
7 A. Yes. Yes, I saw all of them.
8 Q. Now, could you tell us what happened -- what you saw and heard
9 happen, then, after Sefik Medanovic was beaten.
10 A. First I saw my brother-in-law's daughter dying in her mother's
11 arms. I suppose that a stray bullet hit her in the forehead. I saw this
12 child dying in her mother's arms. That was the first victim I saw dying.
13 And later on they told us that they were taking people away one by one.
14 And they told us not to leave that place until they left. Sefik
15 Medanovic's mother went there. They started loading people onto a lorry.
16 They threw away their documents. And some of them were on foot, walking
17 towards Peci. When Sefik Medanovic's mother saw his son dead, she said:
18 "Kill me too." But they didn't wait. They fired a burst of fire, some
19 three metres away from me. So the second group of troops that came
20 through the forest also arrived. They cursed us. They had arms and
21 ammunition. And they walked and they carried all this ammo. There was a
22 lot of ammunition.
23 Q. Now, Mrs. Brkovic, you've talked about a very large number of
24 things there in those few seconds, and I'd like to stop you right there
25 and go back to where you began. Because I think it's important for
1 everyone to understand the sequence of events here as best you remember
3 Now, you've mentioned several things here. You've mentioned Sefik
4 Medanovic's mother seeing her son dead and asking to be killed. And then
5 a burst of gunfire. But what you first mentioned was your
6 brother-in-law's daughter dying in her mother's arms. Could you maybe
7 think about that and see if you've given us the right chronological
8 sequence of events.
9 A. Yes. First I saw her dying and then they opened fire again. Then
10 Fatima Medanovic asked to be killed. Both her and her daughter-in-law.
11 And then again fire was opened, a burst of fire, a burst of gunfire was
13 Q. And could you tell me, then, what happened to the people who were
14 standing, I suppose, in front of you in the line, who were facing the wall
15 of the Osmanovic house?
16 A. I've already said, they were loaded onto a lorry. Some of them
17 were forced to walk away from there. They cursed us, told us not to move
18 before they came back. Then a second group of troops arrived, and they
19 were passing through.
20 Q. And were these people who were in front of you taken in and loaded
21 onto the lorry before the burst of gunfire or after?
22 A. First, they were shot at, and then, when those men were taken
23 away, they shot at the women.
24 Q. And where was your brother-in-law? Did you see?
25 A. I saw him taken away in front of me, and he was either forced to
1 walk towards Peci village or was loaded onto a lorry.
2 Q. Now, what happened to you as a result of that burst of gunfire?
3 A. When the men were taken away, they started shooting. A bullet hit
4 me. I was still conscious. I was still standing on my feet. My daughter
5 had left the line and hid under a staircase. My older daughter and my
6 brother-in-law's daughter.
7 Q. And what about your two younger daughters? Where were they?
8 A. My younger daughters were in front of me. They were on the
9 ground, lying on the ground in front of me when fire was opened.
10 Q. And how -- you mentioned that you were wounded. Can you tell us
11 how you realised that?
12 A. I felt that it was hot. I was burnt. And then I was wounded
13 again, and then this was it. I realised I was wounded.
14 Q. How were you wounded a second time?
15 A. When the men were taken away, they said: "There is nothing for us
16 to do here. Throw something, a Zolja or a grenade." And this happened
17 from then on, I don't remember anything. All of a sudden it was all dark
18 around me. Those of us in the middle survived and the ones in front of
19 the line all died. I lost consciousness. I felt like I had been given
20 anaesthesia, you know. I was totally, completely lost.
21 Q. Did you eventually -- you eventually regained consciousness. What
22 did you see around you?
23 A. I heard people crying. I saw my daughter and I heard her saying:
24 "Our mother is dead." And the other daughter said: "Just lie still.
25 Let her be." Then I touched myself. I touched my back. I could feel
1 that I was wounded, that I was seriously wounded.
2 Q. What did you then do?
3 A. I told my daughters to go to a cellar, to Karanfil Medanovic's [as
4 interpreted] house. Round a wall there was a cellar. We crawled to that
5 cellar. I took a headscarf from a woman, and I dressed my wounds so as to
6 prevent blood loss.
7 Q. Now, if I can just pause you at this moment to show you another
8 photograph with the ERN number 02033316. It should also be on the screen
9 in front of you.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P262.
11 MS. EDGERTON:
12 Q. Do you recognise the house in this picture, Mrs. Brkovic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What is it?
15 A. This is the house in front of which we were lined up for
17 Q. And you mentioned that once you regained consciousness, you and
18 your daughters went to the basement of Karanfil Osmanovic's house. Do you
19 see that house in this photograph?
20 A. Yes, I can see it. You can see the basement as well. It's all
22 Q. And that's the basement of the building on the left-hand side of
23 the photograph; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, in the basement, in the cellar of this house, once you had
1 found your wounds, what did you then do?
2 A. I heard people crying very loud. I could see that my older
3 daughter was not there. I thought that she was dead. So I went out to
4 look for her.
5 Q. And what happened then?
6 A. The wounded people cried loud. They asked for water. I gave them
7 water to drink.
8 Q. You found your daughter?
9 A. Then my daughter came from where she had been hiding under the
10 staircase, together with my brother-in-law's daughter. She asked me:
11 "Mom, are you alive?" I said: "Yes."
12 Q. What then did you do?
13 A. We stayed there a little while. It was already night. Otherwise,
14 they would have searched every house and none of us would have stayed
16 Q. What about some of the other wounded? Did anyone make any effort
17 to help them?
18 A. Yes. We placed them in Sulejman Medanovic's house. There were
19 four persons seriously wounded. Three of them couldn't walk, and my
20 brother-in-law's wife could walk, so she walked there on her own.
21 Q. Who were the other women?
22 A. Hava Medanovic was one, Enesa Medanovic, and Rubija Hadzic.
23 Q. To your knowledge, did all four of those women survive the night?
24 A. Two did, two didn't. Two were dead.
25 Q. And who was that?
1 A. Rubija was dead, and Hava was dead, Hava Hadzic [as interpreted].
2 Hava Medanovic and Rubija Hadzic were dead.
3 Q. And how do you know that?
4 A. In the morning we saw that they were dead.
5 Q. Did you see the two other women alive the next morning?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What did you do the next morning?
8 A. The next morning we started walking to Humici village.
9 Q. And did you have occasion after that to go back to your own
11 A. Yes. Three days later, on the fourth day, maybe.
12 Q. Can you tell us about that visit?
13 A. We went to see what had happened to the people who stayed behind.
14 We saw two skeletons by the door. The house was burning down and you
15 couldn't see much of it.
16 Q. I'm sorry. What house was burning down?
17 A. Sulejman Medanovic's house.
18 Q. Did you ever see the two wounded women who were still alive when
19 you left Prhovo again?
20 A. No. We just found bones, skeletons.
21 Q. And who did you think those skeletons belonged to?
22 A. We knew that only four of them were there. Two we found exactly
23 in the place where we left them, and the other two were by the door.
24 Q. And did you think anything as a result of finding them by the
1 A. We knew that they had burnt down. We didn't know what else to
2 think. They probably wanted to save themselves from the fire. They
3 wanted to leave. But they couldn't muster the strength.
4 Q. And did you receive any information that made you think they were
5 alive at the time the fire had been set?
6 A. Yes. A neighbour of mine also stayed there that night, one day
7 after us, and in the morning she heard voices. She went to see them and
8 she took them some coffee, and they could still be saved at that point in
10 Q. And I take it that you left Prhovo after this visit and returned
11 to Humici; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. About how far is Humici from Prhovo?
14 A. Six kilometres.
15 Q. And you made this journey on foot?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When did you next go to Prhovo after this?
18 A. On the ninth day after that.
19 Q. Can you tell us how that came about and what led up to it?
20 A. We wanted to bury our members of family. We wanted to collect
21 their bodies. We wanted to return to our homes.
22 Q. So who did you have to ask to be able to return to your homes?
23 A. We went to the Serbian command to ask them if we could collect
24 those bodies that were already worm-infested and rotting.
25 Q. And what did the Serbian command say?
1 A. They simply wouldn't allow us to do that. Every day a man would
2 go there to ask. And on the ninth day, he told them that we would all be
3 poisoned with all that, and on the ninth day, finally they allowed us to
4 go up there and collect the bodies.
5 Q. Are you saying that he told them "we would all be poisoned," I
6 don't quite understand. How would that happen?
7 A. I don't know. It was terrible at the time. There were flies
8 transmitting this. It smelled very bad.
9 Q. Did this man who received permission tell you what the Serb
10 command told him?
11 A. Yes. He said we should go there and collect the victims by 11.00
12 or they would come to bury them.
13 Q. And how many people went to collect those victims?
14 A. Perhaps about 15 of us.
15 Q. You were one of these volunteers?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what did you do when you got to the village?
18 A. The men collected the dead. We went home to get a little food.
19 We went to our homes.
20 Q. Do you know how many bodies were collected that day?
21 A. Yes, 38.
22 Q. Did that include victims from the location at which you were
24 A. Yes. On the whole, it was from that location.
25 Q. Did that include any children, to your knowledge?
1 A. Yes. There were children, the youngest of whom was 6 or 7. There
2 were 10-year-old children too.
3 Q. Did you have any family members among those bodies you located
4 that day?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Who was that?
7 A. I saw my brother-in-law's wife, his daughter, and there were other
9 Q. And did -- that day, were the group of you able to locate any of
10 the men who had been taken away?
11 A. No. But a bit further down below, they found seven or eight of
13 MS. EDGERTON: At this point I'd like to show you, Mrs. Brkovic,
14 another photograph. The number, ERN number, 02033315.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P263.
16 MS. EDGERTON:
17 Q. Looking at that photograph before you, Mrs. Brkovic, do you
18 recognise that location?
19 A. Yes. That's where the bodies were buried.
20 Q. And at the top of the photograph, you see two houses, one on the
21 right and a kind of ruin on the left-hand side. What are those houses?
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. Whose houses are they?
24 A. Karanfil Osmanovic and Sefik Medanovic's houses.
25 Q. When you say they found a number of the men who had been taken
1 away at that location, did you have any family members who were recovered
2 at that location?
3 A. No. On the whole, they were neighbours.
4 Q. And at this juncture, I'd like to show you one document, bearing
5 the ERN number 00473294. That's the ERN number of the B/C/S copy.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P264.
7 MS. EDGERTON:
8 Q. Perhaps I could just give you a few minutes to have a look at that
9 document, Mrs. Brkovic, and read the names that are listed out on that
10 document to yourself.
11 Mrs. Brkovic, if I can take you in particular to the bottom of the
12 page and the list of names that appears there. I see Sefik Medanovic,
13 Teufik Medanovic, Safet Medanovic, Alaf [phoen] Medanovic, Izet Hadzic,
14 Hasim Hadzic, Ilfad Brkovic, and Isak Mesic. Do you know these people?
15 A. Yes, I know them.
16 Q. When was the last time you saw them alive?
17 A. The last time I saw them was in the line-up with me.
18 Q. Now, you see at the bottom of the page, before the list of names
19 begins, there's a reference that says "Note: In fighting with army and
20 police members, in addition to the above named who were captured in the
21 zone of combat operations and imprisoned, the following persons were
23 Now, to your knowledge, were any of these men involved in fighting
24 at the time you saw them or the period leading up to that?
25 A. No. No resistance was mounted of any kind.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 Q. To your knowledge, were any of these men Green Berets?
2 A. No.
3 Q. To your knowledge, on the day you last saw them alive, were any of
4 these men in possession of any weapons?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, going back to the burial of the bodies you and
7 the group of people recovered from Prhovo, can you tell me how they were
8 ultimately buried?
9 A. An excavator came to bury them. The man who asked for them to be
10 excavated, he said: "If the excavator doesn't leave, you will be buried
11 alive here."
12 Q. Do you know who brought the excavator?
13 A. I don't. I don't know the people. I don't know.
14 Q. Did you recognise any of the people who were there operating the
16 A. I didn't.
17 Q. Now, on that occasion when you were back in your village to bury
18 the dead, did you go back to your own house at all?
19 A. I did.
20 Q. And what did you do there?
21 A. I took some things for the children and some food that I had in
22 the house.
23 Q. Anything else?
24 A. Nothing else. They didn't let us do anything else until they had
25 finished their work.
1 Q. Were you able to remain in your village and go back to your
3 A. Everything had been burnt down. One of the rooms had burnt down.
4 Everything else was black. There was no electricity. Nothing remained
5 there, none of the utilities.
6 Q. Where, then, did you go?
7 A. We then returned to the Humici village again.
8 Q. And how long did you remain there?
9 A. For three months.
10 Q. And did you have to do anything to be able to leave there?
11 A. In Humici, you mean to move on from Humici?
12 Q. Yes, that's correct.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What was that?
15 A. We had to request to visit someone, to stay with someone. We
16 didn't have anything to eat.
17 Q. How did you ultimately travel -- how were you ultimately able to
18 travel out of the village of Humici, to leave?
19 A. We had to hand over our property. We had to de-registered and say
20 that we were moving out permanently.
21 Q. How did you do that?
22 A. Well, we went to the municipal building. We signed a document
23 saying what we were leaving. We de-registered.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, may I ask you a question. But perhaps
25 I'll first ask the witness: Do you understand or speak any English?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please take off your headphones for
3 one second.
4 Ms. Edgerton, how much time would you still need? Because looking
5 at the statements the witness has given, it seems to the Chamber that
6 you're close to a finalisation. For perhaps obvious psychological
7 reasons, the Chamber would like the cross-examination to start, if it were
8 only for a couple of minutes. I hope that the parties do understand what
9 makes it -- so therefore, since we usually sit until a quarter to 2.00,
10 and I'm looking at the interpreters whether we could, well, perhaps have
11 five or seven or eight minutes more, if you would conclude and if there
12 would be a possibility to start with the cross-examination for a couple of
13 minutes, that would, in the view of the Chamber --
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think that the parties will understand for the
16 well-being of the witness later this day up until tomorrow in the
17 afternoon, it might be good that we -- that she has answered the first
18 questions in cross-examination. So, therefore, if you would keep that in
19 mind, and to the extent possible, finish as quickly as possible. Because
20 this courtroom is needed after half an hour break.
21 MS. EDGERTON: In fact, Your Honour, I was about to thank
22 Mrs. Brkovic, because --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then please do so. Yes, put your...
24 MS. EDGERTON: Mrs. Brkovic, I wanted to thank you now for being
25 here today, because that concludes the questions I have to ask you now.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Edgerton. Could I ask the
2 witness again to take her earphones off for just one second.
3 Ms. Loukas, we are now about to start the cross-examination, as I
4 explained. Just for your information, as I told the parties yesterday,
5 the Chamber has at its disposal the statements in order to be better able
6 to control the examination of the witnesses.
7 The Chamber noted that there are quite some differences in the
8 various statements the witness has given. The Chamber also noticed that
9 there are elements in those statements that are similar or even exactly
10 the same. So we both have seen the similarities and the differences.
11 You also are aware that under the Statute and the Rules, this
12 Chamber has to pay specific attention to those that were victimised by the
13 conflict, and there are some good reasons to believe that the present
14 witness may be in the category of victims.
15 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I can I think assist in this regard. I
16 don't actually have any cross-examination of this witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No cross-examination at all. Well, of course, it's
18 the first time. So I don't have to give you any further guidance.
19 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour. I don't think you have to go any
20 further, and I don't think we have to waste any more court time.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Thank you very much for this
22 information, Ms. Loukas.
23 Mrs. Brkovic, it certainly is explained to you by Ms. Edgerton or
24 by counsel for the Prosecution that usually after you've answered the
25 questions put to you by the Prosecution, that then questions will be put
1 to you by the Defence. I just was informed by the Defence that they have
2 no further questions for you, and the other Judges informed me that they
3 have no further questions for you, and I also have no further questions
4 for you. That means that where you might have expected to have to answer
5 questions of the Defence and of the Bench as well, that by answering the
6 questions of the Prosecution, that your examination is now already
8 I'd like to thank you very much for coming, answering questions
9 put to you. The Chamber is aware that it might not have been easy for
10 you, because your answers indicated clearly that these were traumatic
11 events for you on which you had to testify. The Chamber highly
12 appreciates that you have come and that you testified, and we wish you a
13 safe trip home again.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher, you may escort Ms. Brkovic out of
16 the courtroom.
17 [The witness withdrew]
18 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn now and we'll resume tomorrow -- yes,
19 Mr. Hannis.
20 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, may I mention one matter regarding
21 scheduling tomorrow.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. HANNIS: We have a witness from Vlasenica scheduled tomorrow.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. HANNIS: I understand that we're going to try to proceed by
1 Rule 89(F).
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. HANNIS: There's a possibility then, depending on the amount
4 of cross-examination that we might finish with him tomorrow, before the
5 end of the day. The next witness will probably not be ready until
6 Thursday morning. So if we could do some housekeeping matters or maybe
7 some Rule 92 bis read-ins.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. HANNIS: I would like to suggest that, if it occurs that way.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was telling your programme, I saw it again
11 and again to read into the transcript some material.
12 We will adjourn until tomorrow at 2.15 p.m., in Courtroom III,
13 this same courtroom.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day of
16 September, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.