1 Thursday, 2 September 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Hannis, you're on your feet.
7 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, only because I was afraid I'd disappear
8 out of sight behind the podium if I sat down.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're not easily out of sight, Mr. Hannis. Is
10 the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
11 MR. HANNIS: We are, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: That is a witness without any protective measures in
14 MR. HANNIS: That's correct.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And it's Mr. Crncalo. I hope the pronunciation is
16 good enough to understand whom we are talking about. But first of all,
17 Madam Registrar, I would like you to call the case, because I've forgotten
18 to ask you.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus
20 Momcilo Krajisnik.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Madam Usher, could you please escort the
22 witness into the courtroom. And is it you, Mr. Hannis, who will examine
23 the witness?
24 MR. HANNIS: It is, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I say at this moment good morning, Witness, because I
5 see that your name is spelled differently in several statements. But
6 we'll hear about the correct name and the spelling of it, and perhaps the
7 pronunciation later. Before giving evidence in this court, the Rules of
8 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that
9 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. And
10 the text of this declaration will be handed out to you by Madam Usher.
11 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
12 WITNESS: SULEJMAN CRNCALO
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. We'll hear soon, I take it,
17 Mr. Hannis, whether Mr. Sulejman Crncalo or Crncajlo. Please proceed.
18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Examined by Mr. Hannis:
20 Q. Good morning. Just to help us -- good morning, Mr. Crncalo. To
21 help us out, could you tell us --
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. -- how you spell your last name.
24 A. Crncalo and my first name is Sulejman.
25 Q. And would you spell your last name for us.
1 A. C-r-n-c-a-l-o.
2 Q. Thank you. And Your Honour, I would like to begin by showing the
3 witness his two statements. His ICTY statement of 8 June 2001, I would
4 ask that that be marked as the next exhibit. And his statement to the
5 high court in Sarajevo, dated 23 August 1995, to be the following exhibit.
6 And if he could be shown both at the same time.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: The witness statement dated 8th of June, 2001 is
9 P270 and the record of witness interview of 23rd August 1995, P271.
10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And for the ICTY witness statement, the original
12 would be English, and for the High Court statement, the original would be
13 in B/C/S.
14 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. Crncalo, I would ask you first to look at the document that's
16 a statement to the High Court in Sarajevo in August 1995. Do you see that
18 A. Yes. Here it is.
19 Q. And there's a name on the first page that appears very similar to
20 yours, but the last name is spelled slightly different. Can you tell us
21 whether the person that's being talked about there is you and it's simply
22 a misspelling of your name, or is that some other person?
23 A. This is my family name misspelled. The order of letters A and C
24 is wrong.
25 Q. But do you recognise the signature at the bottom of each of the
1 pages on that document?
2 A. This is my signature.
3 Q. And did you have a chance to look at that statement yesterday and
4 read it over before coming to court today?
5 A. Yes, at the very end of the day I had a look at it.
6 Q. And did you have a chance to look at the other statement that's on
7 the table before you?
8 A. Yes. I had a look at the other statement too.
9 Q. And were you able to read both of those fully and satisfy yourself
10 that those indeed were statements that you had made on those previous
11 occasions as dated on those documents?
12 A. Yes. I read both statements and both of them are the statements
13 that I gave.
14 Q. And apart from a couple of very minor things that we talked about
15 yesterday, can you confirm to this Court that both those statements were
16 true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief at the time you
17 made them?
18 A. I can confirm what is written in the statements when I made them.
19 I made a small addition yesterday, but apart from that, I stand behind my
20 statements, and you can ask me anything you want regarding these two
21 statements, and I'm perfectly willing to answer all your questions.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. HANNIS: And, Your Honour, I would indicate to the Court, I
24 think I've sent to Mr. De Hemptinne in your Chambers and to Defence
25 counsel a supplemental information sheet regarding some of the new items
1 that came up in our proofing session and there are a couple of
2 typographical errors in the English version of his ICTY statement that I
3 would point out to the Court when we come to those as I go through the
4 statement with him.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
6 MR. HANNIS: With that in mind, Your Honour, I would propose to
7 read a summary of his statements at this time, if I may do so.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. 89(F) summary. Yes. We have not received yet
9 the summary. I take it that it was communicated to the Defence. And yes,
10 then please proceed.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. I believe copies have been
12 provided to the booth.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hope so.
14 MR. HANNIS: This is the summary of the prior statements of
15 Mr. Crncalo. The witness was a Muslim factory worker who lived in Pale
16 from 1978 until the time he was expelled on 2 July 1992. He describes the
17 persecution of Muslims in Pale from 1991 until July 1992, when almost all
18 the remaining Muslims were transferred out of the municipality, and the
19 participation of the Bosnian Serb forces (including, in particular, the
20 police, acting in cooperation with paramilitary units) in this campaign.
21 He describes meetings that he and other Muslim representatives had
22 with Serb officials, including the chief of police, Malko Koroman, and one
23 meeting with a member of the Bosnian Serb collective Presidency, Nikola
24 Koljevic, regarding the persecutions and involuntary transfer of Muslims
25 from Pale.
1 Mr. Crncalo states that during 1991 to early 1992 he noted:
2 Increased public manifestation of nationalism by the Serb majority living
3 in Pale, in particular, a May 1991 ceremony by V. Seselj; the distribution
4 of weapons to the local Serb population, and the mobilisation of his Serb
5 coworkers. In response, the Muslim community felt threatened and started
6 guarding their households.
7 On 3 March 1992, the witness was arrested by Serb reserve
8 policemen while guarding his house, taken to the local Pale police
9 station, handcuffed, interrogated by police, threatened with death and
10 beaten for three hours.
11 Mr. Crncalo states that in the beginning of March 1992, the Crisis
12 Staff for the municipality of Pale was established, and that it controlled
13 all municipal activities. It was headquartered at the police headquarters
14 and consisted of SDS leaders, including the SDS president, the chief of
15 police, and the municipality president.
16 The witness states that from March 1992, there was a public call
17 over the television directed to all non-Serbs to surrender all weapons to
18 the police; paramilitary men conducted searches of Muslim homes; Serbs
19 (including, in particular, the police and a paramilitary unit commander,
20 Radomir Kojic) started a campaign to have all non-Serbs leave Pale
21 municipality; and checkpoints were established and manned by
22 paramilitaries and reserve soldiers severely restricting movement of
23 Muslims and cutting them off from neighbouring Muslim communities.
24 During May 1992, he saw three civilian transport trucks full of
25 civilian Muslim men from Bratunac arrive in Pale, escorted by Serb
1 paramilitaries. The trucks stopped in front of the police station and the
2 president of the municipality, Starcevic, came out and said that he did
3 not have a place for all these prisoners. He directed that the Muslim men
4 be taken to the nearby cinema.
5 In April and May 1992, the Muslims' telephone service was cut off.
6 Further, on 15 May 1992, the witness and his fellow Muslim co-workers were
7 dismissed from work. During May-June 1992, he noticed increased
8 concentrations of military equipment and military personnel in the Pale
9 area, including hundreds of paramilitaries. From April there were random
10 arrests of Muslims and in June and July several Muslim men were arrested
11 in their homes by paramilitaries and killed.
12 Finally, in late June and early July, the Serb authorities, in
13 particular, the SDS Crisis Staff, organised convoys to remove Muslims from
14 the area. After his and his family's removal on 2 July 1992, the witness
15 learned that the three mosques in the Pale area were destroyed and the
16 Muslims who had refused to leave the Pale area in July 1992 were killed.
17 In May 1992, the witness and other Muslims asked the chief of
18 police to organise a meeting with a competent authority so they could
19 determine why the Serbs were forcing them to leave their homes. The
20 meeting was to take place at the police station. When the Muslims arrived
21 at the police station, they were told to go to a coffee bar owned by a
22 Muslim, Fadil Kujovic. After approximately 10 minutes, Nikola Koljevic,
23 accompanied by two active-duty policemen, Stanar and Jovicic, arrived.
24 The witness was a member of the delegation, which explained that the
25 Muslims did not want to leave their homes and wanted to live peacefully in
1 Pale. Mr. Koljevic replied: "It does not matter that you want to live
2 with us; the Serbs don't want to go on living with you."
3 In addition to this meeting, the witness had a number of other
4 meetings with Serb authorities, including the chief of police and one
5 meeting with the president of the municipality, about why the police were
6 forcing the Muslims to leave, and received various responses, including,
7 on one occasion, a response from the police chief that he could not
8 protect the Muslim population from paramilitaries.
9 The witness also saw Radovan Karadzic in June 1992 during a public
10 meeting near the police station in Pale.
11 The evidence, Your Honour, is relevant to paragraphs 4, 8, 12, 19,
12 21, 22, and 27, and counts 3, 7, and 8 of the indictment.
13 And that concludes my reading of the summary.
14 Q. Mr. Crncalo, I want to ask you some questions about your
15 statements, but I would ask you, to the extent that you can, if you can
16 answer my questions from your present memory. If you need to refer to the
17 statement, will you let us know that you're looking at the statement when
18 you're making the answer.
19 A. Go ahead. Ask me questions. I'll answer them.
20 Q. First of all, sir, I'd like to just --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Hannis, microphone.
22 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry.
23 Q. First of all, sir, I would like to ask you -- well, first I would
24 like to state a little bit about your background and ask you if that's
25 correct and then I will ask you about some particular events in your
2 Mr. Crncalo, I believe it's correct that you were born and grew up
3 in Pale municipality and that you were trained in metal working. Is that
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you did your mandatory military service in 1965 and 1966?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. After the army, you worked for a company called the Zrak company,
9 for about four years?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And after that, I don't believe it's in your statement, but did
12 you work outside the country for some period of time?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And was that in the Republic of Germany, until 1978?
15 A. Yes, in Germany, in Munich. I returned in 1978. I returned home
16 to Bosnia.
17 Q. When you returned in 1978, did you build a home and go to work at
18 the Famos factory?
19 A. Yes. Famos, in Pale.
20 Q. And what kind of work did you do at Famos?
21 A. I was working on manufacturing tank parts.
22 Q. And could you tell us how big, how many people, approximately,
23 lived in Pale municipality in 1991 and 1992?
24 A. Up to the beginning of war, including all the villages in the
25 entire territory of Pale, there were about 15.000 inhabitants.
1 Q. And approximately how many lived in the town of Pale?
2 A. Approximately 5.000.
3 Q. Do you know the approximate breakdown of the three different
4 ethnic groups within Pale municipality in 1991, 1992, before the war?
5 A. There were Serbs, Muslims, and Croats, but a very little per cent
6 of them.
7 Q. Do you know the approximate percentage of Serbs and Muslims?
8 A. According to what I know, I can talk about two different
9 percentages. I didn't have direct insight into the breakup of the
10 population. I learned from others what the situation was before the war.
11 According to some information, there were 28 per cent of Muslims.
12 According to some other sources, there were 33 per cent of Muslims. I
13 can't account for the 5 per cent difference. I don't know where the
14 difference comes from between 33 and 28 per cent. There were about 5 per
15 cent Croats and the rest of the population were Serbs.
16 Q. Thank you. I understand from your statement that you were not a
17 member of any political party, nor active in politics; is that correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. In your ICTY statement in 2001, you talked about -- you noticed a
20 change beginning in 1991 in the municipality, with more focus on
21 nationalism. And I want to ask you in particular about paragraph 11 in
22 your ICTY statement. You make reference to the 6th of May, 1991 and an
23 event regarding a Serb holiday. Do you recall that event?
24 A. I do, indeed. I remember the event very well.
25 Q. Can you tell the Judges what that was about, how you heard about
2 A. In the territory of Pale municipality, there is a mountain called
3 Romanija. This is a mythical mountain. According to this myth, this is
4 where Hajduks, Serbian heroes, lived. On the mountain of Romanija, there
5 is a cave which used to serve as the hiding-place of Starina Novak, a Serb
6 Hajduk. This cave has always been mentioned in Serb myths as a good
7 place, and Starina Novak has always been mentioned as a hero, the biggest
8 hero of the time. That year on the date that is mentioned in my
9 statement, Seselj was rumoured to be visiting the cave on the 6th of May.
10 According to tradition, the 6th of May is the day when Hajduks used to
11 gather in nature, that is, in the mountain. Most probably, Seselj wanted
12 to revive this tradition. At the beginning of his political career,
13 Seselj established his Radical Party. 90 per cent of the programme of
14 this party, according to what I know, was to establish the so-called
15 Chetnik formations.
16 Q. Let me stop you there, Mr. Crncalo, and ask you a question. What
17 was the source of your information about some event happening on this day
18 involving Mr. Seselj? How did you hear about it?
19 A. We heard about it -- I don't know. The story came to us that
20 Seselj would be coming to Novak's cave for some sort of meeting or rally
21 of his party. And as soon as we heard about that, the arrival of Seselj,
22 we knew where the wind was blowing, what his party and their supporters,
23 the direction they were going in. And we thought that there would be a
24 lot of drinking, that they would be drunk, and they were radicals, and if
25 they had some alcohol to drink, then they could cause chaos and crimes
1 among the Muslim population.
2 Q. And do you know if there was such a gathering on the 6th of May,
3 1991, at that location?
4 A. Yes, there was a gathering like that, and at the end of the
5 gathering - and I haven't ever stated this before, but there we are. I've
6 just remembered it, and that is that he used a horse when he went back and
7 he was going back, and he fell off the horse and injured his face, and his
8 men, if I can put it that way, or his supporters in the villages that he
9 rode through, they were members of his party, and they joked and said that
10 Seselj injured his head while conducting the meeting in Novak's cave.
11 Q. You referred earlier to the term "Chetniks." Can you tell the
12 Court what you're referring to when you use that term. I assume you're
13 not referring to all Serbs.
14 A. The people who opted and chose this kind of paramilitary formation
15 were ultraradicals, and they had their traditions, and on one occasion I
16 saw -- rather, the Serbs showed me themselves, at a petrol station, when I
17 was waiting to tank up, I saw two men wearing black clothes that were
18 handmade from handmade textiles and they were trousers and a shirt, and
19 they had some insignia on their sleeves. But I wasn't able to see that
20 properly or recognise it. And they had a large fur hat on their heads,
21 called the subara, and with the crossed bones insignia and skull, skull
22 and crossbones insignia on that hat.
23 Q. Was there something about this gathering and the increased
24 nationalism that caused you and your Muslim neighbours any concerns?
25 A. Well, we had to be concerned, knowing what we did, because in
1 World War I and World War II, we knew what the paramilitary formations did
2 to the non-Serbs, whether they were Croats or Muslims. And we felt that
3 they could do the same thing in this latest war. So yes, we were afraid.
4 Had to be.
5 Q. And could you tell us what that was that you were concerned about
6 that had been done in World War I and World War II.
7 A. In those two wars, wherever the Chetnik formations arrived, there
8 was mass suffering of Muslims or Croats. Although these units, these
9 formations, didn't have access to ethnically pure Croatian communities.
10 In fact, those formations were usually rampant in the eastern part of
11 Bosnia. Mostly. I can't say 100 per cent and I can't guarantee that they
12 didn't go to other parts at times, Herzegovina, for example, western
13 Herzegovina, but to a lesser extent.
14 Q. In May of 1991, when this event was happening, did you and your
15 neighbours do anything in response because of your concerns?
16 A. Well, yes, we did try to do something. We tried to observe the
17 streets and the approaches to the houses, and for a time that's what I
18 did, until I was arrested. When I was arrested, then we stopped this
19 vigilance. We weren't able to stand in front of the houses and observe
20 the surrounding area from that area. But we would be inside the houses,
21 two or three families would group together inside the houses and stay
22 awake, unless we were gathered together; then you would have whole
23 families disappear in these terrible nights. During the day it was a
24 little easier. You could see better if somebody was coming towards your
25 house or passing by in the street. And anyway, there were a lot of
1 unknown people walking around during that time.
2 Q. Let me jump ahead for a minute and ask you a chronological
3 question. When were you arrested while standing guard outside your house?
4 A. On the 3rd of March.
5 Q. Of 1992?
6 A. 1992, yes.
7 Q. And you told us that -- I think you said that -- or perhaps it's
8 in your statement, that you began standing guard duty outside your homes
9 around the 6th of May, 1991, when this event involving Mr. Seselj
10 occurred. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes, that is correct.
12 Q. Did you and your Muslim neighbours continue to stand guard duty
13 every night from May 1991 through March 1992?
14 A. No. No, we didn't. While Seselj went on the 6th of May to
15 Novak's cave and returned, that same night, in the patrol, I was found in
16 front of my house by a policeman called Milan Simovic, and he was
17 controlling the municipality of Pale. And when he saw me standing in
18 front of the house - and anyway, we had gone to school together - he said:
19 Why aren't you sleeping? And he addressed me as a school friend. What's
20 the reason? And I said: Well, we heard that Seselj was up at Romanija in
21 Novak's cave, so we are rather afraid. We're afraid that something might
22 happen to us.
23 And his response was: Tonight, three local communities in our
24 municipality are awake. They're not sleeping. Hrenovica, Podgrad and
25 this area here at Pale, the Muslim part of Pale.
1 After that, he said: You can go and get some sleep, and if
2 anything is happening, you can call me and I'll come. So don't worry.
3 We said goodbye to each other and he went on patrol. He continued
4 his patrolling. But I didn't dare go to sleep nonetheless, and I stayed
5 awake until daybreak, but nothing actually happened to us that time.
6 Now, the period you're asking me about, about the guard duty, from
7 1991 to 1992, we did not stand guard duty all the time. For a month or
8 so, during the month of May, I believe, we were on guard duty, but then as
9 the tensions dropped and things became calmer, we stopped doing guard
10 duty, until the demonstrations began, and that was sometime in 1992, after
11 Christmas. Demonstrations for Kosovo, that Kosovo shouldn't be
12 relinquished. And then we started guard duty again until I was arrested
13 and taken into custody, when we stopped doing guard duty.
14 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. Now, you talked a little bit about the
15 Chetniks and you mentioned in your statement, I think, in paragraph 14,
16 about some of the local Serb -- you made a reference to local Serb
17 Chetniks and their being armed. Do you have specific individuals in mind
18 when you referred to the local Serb Chetniks? Was there a group of people
19 that you can name or were they under the leadership of someone locally?
20 A. Well, I said a moment ago that Seselj organised the Radical Party,
21 and within that Radical Party, the members were those people who liked the
22 Chetnik movement. But I can't actually give you any names because I
23 wasn't able to recognise even the two men that I described a moment ago,
24 whereas the other Serbs showed me, they called me, called out my name, and
25 pointed to me and said: Sulejman, now you can see what Chetniks look
1 like. Because up until then, I didn't have a chance to see what the
2 clothing they wore looked like.
3 Q. And approximately when was it when those two men were pointed out
4 to you?
5 A. Well, I can't give you an exact date, but I can give you the
6 month. It was March. And there was a great shortage of fuel, and I went
7 to the petrol station to tank up, and in the meantime the two of them
8 arrived, as I said, and then they were pointed out to me. People pointed
9 out these two men to me.
10 Q. In March of which year?
11 A. 1992.
12 Q. Now, in your ICTY statement, in paragraph 17, for the Court, you
13 make reference to some distribution of weapons to the Serbs. And you talk
14 about the involvement of a Stjepan Koroman in that activity, and you say
15 that you were told about this by an Esad Basic. Can you tell the Court
16 what Mr. Basic told you about this?
17 A. Esad Basic is a close relative of mine and he lived in a village
18 called Kamenica, near Jahorina, the mountain. And he set off for Pale one
19 day, for some reason. He had a car. And on the way to Podrava [phoen],
20 that is to say between Kamenica and Podrava, he happened to meet, as he
21 described it to me at the time, a car that was like a small truck, with a
22 cabin and the back part of the truck was covered with a tarpaulin. And as
23 the village road was rather bumpy and there was a lot of rain, when the
24 two cars met, as the road was bumpy, the car went up and down, balancing
25 along the road, and part of the tarpaulin uncovered the back part of the
1 truck and you could see the -- what the truck had inside. And when they
2 were passing each other, these two cars, Esad's car must have hit a pool
3 of water and sprinkled the truck with water. Both vehicles stopped.
4 Stjepan Koroman came out of the truck and asked Esad why he had sprayed
5 and dirtied his vehicle. And the other man didn't answer. But both of
6 them, Esad Basic and Stjepan Koroman got out of their vehicles. When they
7 met, Esad said that he saw that there were rifles loaded up onto the back
8 of the truck. He could see that because part of the tarpaulin, part of
9 the canvas covering the truck had become unhinged. And Stjepan told him,
10 don't tell anyone what you've just seen. And he said that Stjepan was
11 angry when he told him that. And that's what Esad told me about that
13 Q. Did he tell you what kind of rifles and how many there were?
14 A. Well, he didn't give a number, but he just said he saw that the
15 back part of the small truck was half full and covered with the canvas,
16 with the awning. And all the rifles were manufactured by the Crna Zastava
17 red flag factory of Kragujevac. And they were easily visible and
18 recognisable. All of us who had done our military service could recognise
19 that type of rifle at a glance.
20 Q. And what type of rifle is that?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone.
22 MR. HANNIS:
23 Q. What type of rifle is that? Is that a hunting rifle?
24 A. It's an army, a military, automatic rifle, which takes 30 bullets.
25 It can fire a burst of gunfire or individual gunshots. And because they
1 were such elegant rifles, we would call them gypsy women, and you could
2 place an anti-aircraft device on each of these rifles. Rifle grenades
3 could be attached to each of those rifles.
4 Q. And the company you mentioned that manufactured these rifles,
5 where is that located?
6 A. In Serbia, in the town of Kragujevac.
7 Q. Stjepan Koroman, was he related to any official who worked in
9 A. Yes, he was. He had members of his family in political circles
10 within the municipality, in Famos as well. Among one of the managers, and
11 a closer relative was Malko Koroman, the head of the police department at
12 Pale, police administration at Pale of the day, that is to say, 1992.
13 Q. Do you recall approximately when this was that Esad had seen these
15 A. That was the period from Christmas to March. It could have been
16 February, actually. I'm not quite sure. Don't hold me to a date. But
17 during that period of time, anyway, before the initial shelling of
18 Sarajevo. And all the statements that came from Sarajevo that the war
19 officially began on the 6th of April, I myself was able to see from the
20 window of my house on the 5th of April, it was night, the night between
21 Saturday and Sunday, and I heard how the shelling of Sarajevo started that
22 night. I heard it start.
23 Q. Excuse me. Let me stop you there, Mr. Crncalo. I want to ask you
24 a further question about arming. In paragraph 18 you say it was "common
25 knowledge to my community and me that the Serbs obtained weapons from
1 several army barracks in the Pale area."
2 Can you tell us how this was common knowledge? What was your
3 source of information about that?
4 A. When news travels through the population, you usually refer to
5 that as being a public, an open secret. So it wasn't something that
6 happened overnight. I heard many times from my colleagues at work, while
7 we still went to work, I heard them asking each other: What were you
8 given tonight or last night, and how many pieces were you issued? I
9 didn't pay much attention to these questions and that kind of thing
10 because I thought that as Christmas was almost upon us and Serbian
11 holidays and religious holidays, I didn't pay much attention. But they
12 said somebody got two rifles, another man got one rifle. So one person
13 would complain about having been given an old rifle, dating back to World
14 War II. The old type of rifle that you had to -- which wasn't automatic.
15 You had to use your hand. It had to be opened manually. So they were
16 complaining of having been issued rifles like that.
17 Q. And which colleagues at work are you talking about?
18 A. Well, my colleagues at work. We worked together in Famos. At
20 Q. Were these colleagues of one particular ethnicity?
21 A. Yes. One particular ethnicity. They were Serbs.
22 Q. Regarding your Serb colleagues at work in paragraph 19 of your
23 ICTY statement, you indicated that in January 1992, your Serb co-workers
24 began to be mobilised. Did no Muslim workers at Famos get mobilised?
25 A. At that time, when it all began, when things began to happen, at
1 work we had a plan that had to be implemented within one month, that is to
2 say, we had to provide our buyers with the goods. But when the
3 mobilisation started, there was not enough manpower, and the production
4 plan began to stagnate, and we were discussing this amongst ourselves when
5 the first tour of mobilisation took part. We wondered where all the
6 people were, where the managers were, and they just shook their heads and
7 said they didn't know. Because we said we'll be left without a salary.
8 We're not able to meet our production plans. And then the next tour of
9 mobilisation, the next bout started, and production levels dropped
10 further. Everybody was being mobilised but not a single Muslim. And on
11 one occasion, coming back from work, I happened to recognise somebody I
12 knew very well, Nedeljko Vukovic, a colleague of mine from work. He was
13 wearing a uniform, standing beside some sort of vehicle. And I asked -- I
14 called him Neso, and I said to him: Neso what are you doing there? And
15 he said: Well, I've been mobilised. And I said where. Well, he says,
16 I'm driving something to Capljina. And he had been issued a vehicle, a
17 military vehicle which was referred to as a Campagnola.
18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it might be useful we suggest, with
19 respect, if Your Honour could give this witness one of Your Honour's
20 occasional reminders that the question that is put by counsel is what he
21 should answer.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, may I ask you to carefully listen to the
23 question and to answer to that question, and if any further details are of
24 importance for us, Mr. Hannis will certainly ask you about that.
25 And Mr. Hannis, you could perhaps lead the witness in that respect
1 a bit more. We are under some time constraints, and of course I know that
2 you have a lot to tell us, but Mr. Hannis, Prosecution, and Defence might
3 be interested in very specific points. So would you first answer that,
4 and if any further information is needed, we'll certainly ask you.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Mr. Crncalo, I'll try to get to the point I wanted to clear up
8 with you. You said Serb co-workers were being mobilised during this time
9 period; correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Were any Muslims, any of your Muslim co-workers at the Famos
12 factory mobilised during this time?
13 A. No.
14 Q. I want to be clear about that, because we know that in some parts
15 of Bosnia, there were mobilisation calls in which Muslims were called up,
16 but simply refused to go. And I want to find out if in Pale, in Famos
17 factory, your Muslim co-workers, was it a case of they got call-ups and
18 refused to go or they simply did not get called up? If you know.
19 A. Simply, they didn't get a call-up for mobilisation.
20 Q. And let me ask you this question, first of all, if you can answer
21 yes or no. Do you have an opinion about whether Muslims could have joined
22 up and mobilised if they had volunteered themselves without being called,
23 in Pale? Yes or no. Do you have an opinion about that?
24 A. No.
25 Q. No, you have no opinion, or your opinion is: No, they could not?
1 A. No, they couldn't have been called up.
2 Q. And what's the basis for your opinion to that effect? Was there
3 some incident that gave you an opinion about that?
4 A. There were no such cases, and if I can explain, if I may be
5 allowed to explain.
6 Q. If you could explain briefly, please.
7 A. I will do. When there is a mobilisation, first there is --
8 officers are mobilised and they're followed by soldiers, and this is what
9 did not happen.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. And when you had been in the army or the
11 reserves, were you an officer?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Let me go forward now. I want to go to what you have mentioned
14 before in March of 1992, when you were guarding your home. You told us
15 you were arrested that night. Can you tell us briefly how that happened?
16 Who arrested you? Where did they take you?
17 A. I was standing in front of my house. All of a sudden, three
18 policemen appeared. All three pointed their rifles at me. They
19 handcuffed me and they marched me to the police station. My hunting rifle
20 was leaning against the house wall. I did not hold it in my hands.
21 However, they picked the rifle up and took it to the police station. Shall
22 I now tell you what happened to me in the police station?
23 Q. Let me ask you some specific questions about it. And this may
24 help you to realise that your statements, your written statements from
25 before, have been marked as exhibits and we're going to offer those as
1 evidence to the Court. So the Court, if they haven't already read that,
2 will be reading that. So we don't need to tell them about everything
3 that's written down there. I want to try and fill in some of the gaps.
4 The three policemen who arrested you, what was their ethnicity?
5 A. Serbs.
6 Q. Do you know, were they local Serbs? Did you recognise any of
8 A. They were reserve policemen. I didn't know them. None of them.
9 As for their accent, it appeared that they came from the same neck of
10 woods, from the same part of Bosnia. However, I did not recognise any of
12 Q. And in your written statement, you describe how you were taken to
13 the police station and interrogated and beaten by an individual named
14 Hrsum. What ethnicity was he?
15 A. His family name was Hrsum and his ethnic origin was Serb.
16 Q. Do you know what -- was he a member of the Pale police department,
17 a regular policeman as opposed to a reserve policeman?
18 A. He was a member of the reserve police. I apologise. I'm sorry.
19 Were you referring to the ones that arrested me or the one that
20 interrogated me, Hrsum? I gave my answer maybe too quickly, I'm afraid.
21 Q. Yes. You told us before that the reserve policemen were Serbs. I
22 was asking you about Mr. Hrsum, whether he was a reserve or a regular
24 A. He was a regular policeman, an inspector in the crime prevention
1 Q. And in your statement, you describe what you went through there at
2 the police station, but I want to ask you about what happened later in
3 that evening or in the morning, early morning hours, when Malko Koroman
4 came in. When he arrived, did you talk to him about what had happened to
5 you before he got there?
6 A. I was standing in the hallway. My hands were still handcuffed.
7 When Malko entered the police station, he recognised me and asked me: What
8 are you doing here? And I answered that he should talk to his policemen
9 about that. He invited me to go with him to the room that he was
10 entering. A neighbour of mine had already been there. Hrsum was
11 interrogating him as I came to the door. He ordered Hrsum to leave the
12 room. Hrsum obeyed him. Then he invited me in and he asked me to sit
13 down on a chair.
14 Malko asked me: How come the police arrested me in front of my
15 house? How come his policemen found themselves in my street? I answered:
16 I don't know how it happened. You should ask them.
17 And then he pointed to his automatic rifle that he brought with
18 him and he also pointed to the hunting rifles that belonged to me and to
19 my neighbour. Those hunting rifles were on the desk. He simply ridiculed
20 these hunting rifles, and he said: If any of his soldiers or policemen
21 were to be injured in town, he would level and raze the town to the
22 ground. Because that is the kind of weapons that he had at his disposal.
23 Then I turned to Malko and told him: Malko let's not raze
24 anything to the ground. Let's leave it together, like human beings.
25 Let's forget all of our misgivings and tensions. If there is any way.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 Let's rather talk than do anything else. Let's try and see if we can live
3 And then I said that we would like to see the Muslim policemen
4 return, the ones that had been fired from the police station. And then he
5 said to me: As long as there is no Serb policemen in Sarajevo, there is
6 not going to be one Muslim policeman in Pale.
7 It sounded to me like an ethnic division or an ethnic cleansing,
8 which started with the police force and then would spread onto whatever
9 comes next.
10 Q. Let me stop you there, if I may, Mr. Crncalo, and ask you a couple
11 of questions. You say now that he indicated that if any of his policemen
12 or soldiers were wounded, that he would level your settlement or your part
13 of town. In your ICTY statement, in paragraph 21, I believe, it just says
14 Koroman said that if any of his policemen were injured. It doesn't
15 mention soldiers. Is your recollection that he said both policemen and
16 soldiers, as you sit here today?
17 A. I hope that the Trial Chamber will understand and appreciate that
18 I am a human being and that I can make a mistake. Maybe I have made a
19 mistake. I don't know.
20 Q. What is your present memory as you sit here in the courtroom about
21 what he said?
22 A. I believe that he said what I have just told you now, as I sit
24 Q. Now, you said in this discussion, you made reference to the fact
25 that Muslim policemen in Pale had been dismissed. Do you know when that
1 had begun to happen? This -- sometime prior to March 2nd or 3rd, I take
3 A. I know the date very well, because it happened to me as well. It
4 was on the 15th of May. I went to work, like any other day. When I
5 arrived at the gate, the guards simply told me that I couldn't go in.
6 Other people came. Some were able to go in. Some weren't. Which ones
7 were not able to go in? Only Muslims were not able to go in.
8 Q. We'll get to that in a minute, if I can stop you here.
9 MR. STEWART: Could I just comment, Your Honour. I'm sure Mr.
10 Hannis will have realised himself anyway, but the question and answer,
11 they do rather demonstrate the obvious dangers of making assumptions in
12 the question in a leading form, because Mr. Hannis gave the witness his
13 assumption that it was sometime prior to March the 2nd or 3rd and the
14 answer was it was on the 15th of May. I dare say Mr. Hannis noted that
15 discrepancy as the question and answer were given anyway.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, I don't know whether that's a danger or
17 that it demonstrates that leading a witness in a certain direction does
18 not always take him to that direction. But, Mr. Hannis, you certainly
19 noted it, and I take it that you appreciate the observation made by
20 Mr. Stewart.
21 MR. HANNIS: I do, Your Honour. I made an assumption that
22 apparently may not be correct, and I'm going to try to clear it up now, if
23 I may.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. HANNIS:
1 Q. Mr. Crncalo, we were talking about the night you were arrested and
2 had a discussion with Mr. Koroman, and one of the topics that came up was
3 Muslim policemen in Pale and Serbian policemen in Sarajevo. And in your
4 answer, you said something about the 15th of May, which was when you were
5 dismissed from work. But my question is: In March of 1992, on the 2nd or
6 3rd, had any Muslim policemen in Pale already been dismissed from their
7 jobs, or did that happen later? If you know.
8 A. Policemen had already been dismissed from the police
9 administration at Pale. I can give you their names. Suad
10 Bajnaga [phoen].
11 Q. Anyone else?
12 A. Hudo Kadric, Meho Raketa. There was another man whose family name
13 was Alic. I don't know his name. But I know that he hails from the local
14 commune of Hrenovica. These people were dismissed.
15 Q. And Mr. Koroman said -- in your statement, you indicate a
16 particular area of Sarajevo that he talked about when he said there will
17 be Muslim policemen here when there are Serbian policemen in that part of
18 Sarajevo. Do you remember what part he referred to?
19 A. Stari Grad municipality.
20 Q. Were you aware of any significant or highly publicised event that
21 had happened in Stari Grad about this time, in early March 1992?
22 A. It is possible that this was the establishment of the Crisis Staff
23 and the takeover of all political authorities in the municipality. You
24 know what, it's very difficult for me. I'd have to think.
25 Q. It's all right, Mr. Crncalo. I was just wondering if there was
1 anything that was presently in your mind. That was a long time ago. I'll
2 move on to another question.
3 Now, after this discussion, we understand from your statement that
4 you were eventually released from the police station and that you and your
5 neighbour were taken home. What happened to your hunting rifle that
6 night? Did you -- was it returned to you?
7 A. No, it was never returned to me. It remained at the police
9 Q. Were you given any kind of receipt for it?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you have a licence for that particular rifle?
12 A. Well, of course, and this rifle was registered with the police
14 Q. And when you were released and told you were free to go, what
15 happened? Would you tell the Court how that happened. Did you and your
16 neighbour just simply walk out and go home, or how did you get home?
17 A. When Malko finished talking to us, he told us we could go. It was
18 about half past 5.00 in the morning. We started walking towards the door
19 and all of a sudden he called us to come back, and he says: You can't go
20 on your own. I have to escort you.
21 We looked at each other. We didn't know what was going on
22 outside. Malko started walking in front of us. We went to the front
23 door, and as we stepped out of the police administration building, I think
24 I won't be mistaken when I say there were about a hundred reserve
25 policemen around the police station. Malko was walking ahead of us
1 amongst these people. He brought us to his car. We got into his car and
2 he drove us to our house. On the way there, from a petrol station to the
3 street where I lived, or maybe a hundred metres further to the left, it
4 was all full of soldiers and policemen; that is, they were on the
5 left-hand side. They were all facing that part of the Muslim part of
6 Pale, and their rifles and other types of weapons were facing that area.
7 There were machine-guns, there were people at ready with the machine-guns.
8 And behind the machine-gunners there were ten soldiers as reinforcement.
9 I was really surprised to see so many soldiers. I asked Malko: What is
10 this? Malko just kept quiet. He didn't answer. Anything -- he took us
11 to our respective houses, me and my neighbour. We were in a state of
12 shock. We found it difficult to breathe.
13 Q. Let me stop you there and ask you a question. In your ICTY
14 statement, I think you were arrested on the night of the 2nd of March.
15 And I believe in your 1995 statement, it says the 3rd and 4th of March.
16 Do you recall whether you were arrested on the 2nd and released the
17 morning of the 3rd, or arrested the night of the 3rd and released the
18 morning of the 4th? And if you don't know, that's okay too.
19 A. It may be that I was arrested on the 3rd and released on the 4th,
20 in the morning.
21 Q. At any rate, it was either the 2nd or the 3rd. Do you feel
22 comfortable with that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you aware at the time or shortly after of any unusual or
25 significant event that was happening in Sarajevo about that time that may
1 have had some connection with the presence of such large numbers of police
2 and soldiers in your municipality?
3 A. At the time, there was a very strict control exercised by the
4 active and reserve policemen. We were not allowed to go from one local
5 commune to the next, and we had very little knowledge of what was going on
6 in Sarajevo at the time.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you. In your statement, then, you talk about a
8 public call for weapons to be surrendered. Do you recall when that
9 happened in relation to your arrest? Was it after your arrest, and if so,
10 approximately how long after?
11 A. After my arrest, as far as I can remember. I can't give you the
12 exact date; however, it was approximately 10 to 14 days later. Malko
13 Koroman appeared on TV and invited all non-Serbs to return their
14 long-barrelled weapons. Whatever weapons there were, were either hunting
15 rifles or sports rifles, and they were all registered with the police. We
16 had to surrender all of those. We had to return those weapons.
17 Q. And was this directed to Serbs as well?
18 A. Only non-Serbs.
19 Q. Do you recall whether or not, when Malko Koroman made the
20 announcement over TV, whether there was a deadline by which you had to
21 turn in your weapons?
22 A. Yes. A deadline was mentioned. When we heard the announcement,
23 on the following day, five or six people gathered, went to the police
24 station, and spoke to Milan Simovic. They wanted an explanation of what
25 Malko had requested the previous night from the non-Serbs. He answered:
1 People, you have to return the weapons. There will be no more hunting.
2 And we returned from the police station. I can't tell you what
3 the deadline was. Maybe four days. I'm not sure. However, I'm sure that
4 on the following day we went to the police station to ask for an
6 Q. And to where were the weapons to be turned in? Were you told
7 where to turn them in?
8 A. Yes. They said that weapons from the urban part of Pale should be
9 brought to the police administration building. As for the local communes,
10 a bit away from Pale, there were designated places in those local communes
11 where the inhabitants of the local communes were supposed to bring their
12 weapons to.
13 Q. Did you comply with this announcement to turn in weapons?
14 A. Yes. We had to. We were all registered with the police. Every
15 single individual was registered with the police, and the police knew what
16 we had, what calibre, what type of rifle. We all had hunting rifles. And
17 there was no way for us to get away with not returning their piece or
18 hiding from the police that they had a weapon. There was no way to hide
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, the question put to you was just whether
21 you complied. And you then started explaining for what reasons you think
22 you could not have done otherwise. But the question just was: Did you
23 comply? So a simple yes would have done. If Mr. Hannis would like to
24 know whether you had any choice or any option not to comply with it, he
25 would certainly have asked you about it. May I again direct you. It's
1 not because it's not interesting to hear what you say, but we are under
2 time restraints and we have to focus on those aspects that are most
3 important for the parties and for the Chamber to hear.
4 Mr. Hannis, we are close to 10.30. Would this be a suitable
5 moment for a break.
6 MR. HANNIS: This would be fine, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I first ask Madam Usher to escort the
8 witness out of the courtroom.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, if Rule 89(F) is applied, we usually gain
11 some time. Could you give us an impression on how much time you would
12 still need for the examination-in-chief.
13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm somewhere between a third and a half
14 of the way through.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Would that mean that we do not save time, only four
16 hours estimate.
17 MR. HANNIS: I think we will save time. I think we'll be under
18 four hours, maybe three hours.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, Mr. Hannis.
20 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. Your Honour, I think it will be under
21 four hours, but I think it will be three hours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's less time saved than 89(F) would --
23 perhaps sometimes -- I heard a lot of details of which I asked myself what
24 the relevance of that was. For example, if the witness says that it was
25 from -- he knew from the First and Second World War that they were afraid.
1 Of course you can ask him, but first of all, it creates a risk that it
2 becomes a huge battle on who is telling the right story about the First
3 and the Second World War, and I think the subjective fear is, at least as
4 I understand it, is what you seek to establish, and not exactly on what
5 recollection -- and we have had several points where I think we could have
6 done with a little bit less details.
7 We'll adjourn until 5 minutes to 11.00. And as all parties are
8 aware, the Chamber is really trying itself to be here back in due time.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, please proceed.
12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Mr. Crncalo, when we finished, we had just been talking about
14 Malko Koroman's call for surrender of weapons. You told us you
15 surrendered your weapons. Do you know of any Muslims who did not
16 surrender their weapons in Pale?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Next, Your Honours, I want to go to paragraph 26 of your
19 statement, Mr. Crncalo. You talk about a time when Radomir Kojic and two
20 other men came to talk to you about leaving town. First of all, can you
21 tell us who Radomir Kojic was?
22 MR. STEWART: Is that 28, Your Honour? I'm not sure.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I heard 26.
24 MR. STEWART: Yes. I heard 26. I think it's 28, isn't it.
25 MR. HANNIS: No I believe it's 26 on the -- on my --
1 JUDGE ORIE: The start of the campaign appears in 26.
2 MR. HANNIS: The paragraph in English says ten days after my
4 MR. STEWART: I'm so sorry. It's my mistake, actually. I was
5 overlooking it was Radomir Kojic and not Mr. Koljevic. I beg your pardon.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
7 MR. HANNIS:
8 Q. Do you recall the question, sir? Can you tell us who Radomir
9 Kojic was?
10 A. Radomir Kojic was before the war a transporter, a hauler, and
11 probably he was mobilised at the beginning of these events. He was
12 probably mobilised into the reserve formation of the Serb army. I think
13 he was in some sort of special unit as a member of the military police.
14 Q. What was his ethnicity?
15 A. Radomir Kojic is a Serb.
16 Q. And during this time, did you have any information to indicate
17 whether he had any rank or standing in whatever unit he was in?
18 A. I saw him a couple of times while I was at Pale. He would come in
19 front of my house with his, I suppose, duties. But he didn't have any
20 rank insignia on him, although you could see that he was a sort of senior
21 officer in his unit, judging by his behaviour and the conduct of the
22 people who went with him, that he was in authority. And I saw that he had
23 an officer's belt on him at one point, the standard type of army belt that
24 officers wore. But he didn't carry any rank on him, rank insignia.
25 Q. What kind of uniform did he wear? Was it a military uniform or a
1 police uniform?
2 A. A military camouflage uniform, like the stabilising forces wear.
3 Q. And in paragraph 26, you talk about an occasion about ten days
4 after your arrest, when he and two other men, Jovan Skobo and another man
5 named Stanar, came and talked to you. First of all, can you tell us who
6 Jovo Skobo was?
7 A. Jovan Skobo was an active-duty policeman in the Pale police
9 Q. And on this occasion, you said they came to talk to you about
10 leaving town. Could you tell the Judges what they said to you exactly, to
11 the best of your memory.
12 A. They wanted to prevail upon us to have us leave the Pale
13 municipality, and as far as I can remember, Skobo said it would be better
14 for you to leave, to get into the buses and be transported by us somewhere
15 else, to another area, where the Muslims are in the majority, rather than
16 having us catch you and run off to you in the forests and woods.
17 Q. And when you say "you," are you referring to you personally,
18 Mr. Crncalo, or you as a group? And if so, what group?
19 A. Well, I was present when that was what was said, and it didn't
20 refer to me alone. It referred to the Muslim population in Pale
22 Q. Did you say anything in response to this when you were told that?
23 A. Well, yes, we did comment, but we weren't able to give any direct
24 answer, because every time, whenever we met anybody and discussed the
25 situation, we did try to find ways and means of remaining in our homes, in
1 our houses, to try and find a way of continuing to live together in Pale,
2 the way we did before all this broke out, to live a life together. We
3 cooperated well. There were no tensions before the nationalist parties
4 were formed. There was no tension between the nationalities before that.
5 Q. And as a result of being told this by these men, did you and your
6 Muslim neighbours contact any of the local authorities to discuss it?
7 A. Well, this is how it was: It's very unpleasant to have to discuss
8 it now, let alone when we were actually told this. We had to leave. That
9 is to say, we had to go and see the president of the municipality. May I
10 be allowed to continue?
11 Q. Let me ask you a few questions first, and then if I don't cover
12 everything, we'll give you a chance at the end. How many of you went
13 together to see the president of the municipality?
14 A. Well, it was mostly a group of people, but we went several times.
15 There were nine of us, about nine of us. Sometimes ten, sometimes eight
16 of us, but thereabouts. The group usually numbered nine.
17 Q. And what did you tell the president of the municipality?
18 A. We told him what we were told, what Skobo told us, namely, that we
19 were being asked to move out. Why should we move away? Are we guilty of
20 having done anything? Under what conditions, what circumstances? Why are
21 they forcing us to leave? And he said: Who said that? Who's going to
22 make you leave? And I said, we said: Well, a policeman turned up and
23 told us that and the exact location where we were told to leave. And had
24 it just been one of us who had gone to the president of the municipality
25 to tell him that, he wouldn't have believed us, but when the nine of us
1 went to tell him, he had to believe us.
2 Q. What did he tell the nine of you after you reported this
3 information to him?
4 A. He told us to go to the chief of police and to ask him.
5 Q. So that's Malko Koroman, as I understand. You went to see the
6 chief of police, and did you tell him the same thing?
7 A. Yes, that's right. Malko Koroman. We did tell him the same thing
8 and asked him what we asked the mayor, the president of the municipality.
9 Q. What did Mr. Koroman say to you when you told him that?
10 A. He told us to go back to the president of the municipality and
11 told us the same thing, that he couldn't guarantee our safety and security
12 at all, as free citizens of Pale.
13 Q. Did you tell him that you had already been to see the president of
14 the municipality and he had referred you to Mr. Koroman?
15 A. Yes, we did.
16 Q. Did he have any other advice for you in light of that?
17 A. No, no advice at the time. We went home after having seen the
18 chief of police. We went back to our homes. But we discussed the
19 situation amongst ourselves to decide what we were going to do. But we
20 didn't find an answer, and we decided to go back and see the president of
21 the municipality in due course, when the need arose.
22 Q. Let me ask you a couple more questions about that before we go on.
23 In your meeting with Malko Koroman, did the nine of you tell him that you
24 had been told about leaving by one of his policemen, Jovan Skobo?
25 A. Yes, that's right. We did.
1 Q. Did he say he would take any action with regard to Mr. Skobo or
2 talk to him about what he had been telling you?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And when he said he couldn't guarantee your safety and security,
5 did he specify what you needed to be safe and secure from?
6 A. No. He didn't specify. When we went to see the president of the
7 municipality for the first time, and then he sent us to the chief of
8 police, he didn't say where the danger could come from. All he said was
9 that he couldn't guarantee our safety and security. Now, at subsequent
10 meetings the president of the municipality and the chief of police, on one
11 occasion Malko told us from which party he couldn't guarantee our safety
12 and security, from what side.
13 Q. Now, based -- I think you started to say before, did you have some
14 additional meetings and discussions with the municipality president about
15 this problem? Just yes or no.
16 A. Yes, we did have a meeting.
17 Q. And did you have any additional meetings with Malko Koroman about
18 the problem?
19 A. Yes, we did.
20 Q. And I gather from your statement that you didn't get any different
21 or better answers than you had in the first meeting. Is that true?
22 A. All we were told from having talked to Malko the first time, his
23 answer was more rigorous the second time, if anything.
24 Q. In what way? If you can explain "more rigorous."
25 A. On one occasion we asked that somebody should be brought to the
1 meeting from the authorities, from the peaks of power, if I can put it
2 that way, the most highly responsible. So he didn't promise to do that,
3 although the meeting was scheduled. We asked that it should be at the
4 police station. But when we arrived at the police station, we were
5 informed that the meeting would take place in a private coffee bar, the
6 proprietor being a man named Fadil. And when we got there, Malko turned
7 up, Roman turned up, and he sent two policemen shortly after the start of
8 the meeting. He sent two policemen off in a car. They returned very
9 soon, and Nikola Koljevic arrived at the meeting as well. May I be
10 allowed to add something here, please?
11 Q. Yes, please.
12 A. At the meeting, we asked Mr. Koljevic to give us guarantees that
13 we could stay on living in Pale, stay on in our homes, and his answer to
14 us, his response, was: It doesn't matter what you want, that you want to
15 stay on living here, but the Serbs don't want to continue living with you
17 Those were his very words.
18 After that, Malko told us that he couldn't guarantee our safety
19 and security, that he could no longer hold the Red Berets under his
20 control, the Red Berets that had come from Knin. And according to him,
21 according to what he told us, they had been put up at the Panorama Hotel
22 and that he couldn't keep them under his control there for long. The Red
23 Berets from Knin, that is, and some other units from other territories.
24 He didn't tell us from which territories. And this is what he said, quite
25 literally. He said they'd come there to do their job, to get the job
2 Q. Let me ask you some further details about this meeting. Do you
3 recall approximately when this meeting took place, what month in 1992?
4 A. I'll try. I'll do my best to be as accurate as possible. The
5 Serb government was represented at the Pale municipality, and the meeting
6 was held after the Serb government had come to Pale, and I think it was
7 towards the end of March, the second half of March, but I really can't
8 remember the exact date.
9 Q. Now, when you say after the second half of March, are you talking
10 about when the Serb government came to Pale or are you talking about when
11 the meeting took place, or both?
12 A. The Serb government had moved to Pale before that, prior to the
13 meeting at which Nikola Koljevic turned up. And I can conclude this
14 because I had the opportunity of seeing Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic at
16 Q. In person or on TV?
17 A. Well, as far as -- well, maybe I've got it mixed up. If I said
18 Krajisnik -- no, I did not see Krajisnik. I saw Koljevic. That's what I
19 meant. He came to the meeting. As for Karadzic, I saw him in front of
20 the cultural centre when he delivered a speech there.
21 Q. This meeting took place before or after you were arrested on March
22 the 2nd of 1992?
23 A. Afterwards. After my arrest.
24 Q. And did it also take place after the call for surrender of weapons
25 and you had turned in your weapons?
1 A. Probably that was it, yes.
2 Q. And you'd had at least a couple of meetings with the police chief
3 before this meeting that Mr. Koljevic showed up at; correct?
4 A. Yes, that's right. We did.
5 Q. And we know it must have taken place sometime before July 2nd of
6 1992, because that's when you left the municipality.
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. How many of you -- how many Muslims were there present at this
10 A. About 15 of us. I think that was it.
11 Q. And who were the Serb representatives? You mentioned the police
12 chief and the president of the Municipal Assembly. Were there any others
13 besides Mr. Koljevic?
14 A. Yes. Yes, some others did come, probably the security details,
15 the two policemen, actually, the ones who went off to fetch him.
16 Q. And was it at this meeting where Mr. Koljevic told you what you
17 just told the Court a short time ago, was it at this meeting that Malko
18 Koroman talked about the Red Berets from Knin having arrived in Pale?
19 A. Yes. Koljevic was present, Mr. Koljevic was present when Malko
20 said that he couldn't guarantee our safety because the Red Berets had
21 arrived from Knin.
22 Q. And at that time, whenever this meeting was, had you heard of the
23 Red Berets from Knin before that meeting?
24 A. We never received any certain information, but, you know, rumours
25 go around. People get to hear things. And then start passing those
1 things on. But we didn't believe that it was true until Malko told us.
2 Q. You didn't believe that they were present until Malko told you? Is
3 that what you're referring to?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. What I was trying to ask you before, Mr. Crncalo, was: Had you or
6 any of your Muslim neighbours heard anything about who the Red Berets from
7 Knin were and/or anything about the kinds of activities they had been
8 allegedly engaged in before that meeting?
9 A. Well, yes. We had heard about some of their activities, around
10 Knin and Gospici, that is, in Croatia, that it was there that they did all
11 sorts of things.
12 Q. Let me stop you there. Without going into details about what you
13 had heard, was the nature of what you had heard about them something that
14 made you worried when Mr. Koroman said he might not be able to control
15 them and they were there to do a job?
16 A. Yes, we were all shocked when we heard the statement, and we were
17 even more frightened as to what was going to happen to us on every
18 subsequent night, if those Red Berets go about their business and start
19 doing the job that Malko said they were there to do.
20 Q. And what did you fear that that was?
21 A. Well, we were afraid of some kind of violence, arrests, beatings,
22 killings, suffering, that kind of thing.
23 Q. And did Malko Koroman mention this about the Red Berets being
24 present in Pale and his being worried about not being able to control
25 them, did he say those two things while Mr. Koljevic was at the meeting?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. And you were all in a small enough area where Mr. Koljevic could
3 have heard it being said when it was said?
4 A. Well, the room was a small one. It was approximately seven or
5 eight metres in size. It wasn't bigger than that.
6 Q. Did you see -- did he have any reaction that you were able to see,
7 or did he say anything about Mr. Koroman's comments about the Red Berets?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So what did you and the other Muslims decide to do after having
10 been told this by Mr. Koroman and based on what Mr. Koljevic had told you?
11 A. When we left the room, the premises, we went to my street, the
12 street I lived on, and we discussed what we were going to do. The only
13 way out, the only way was to save our families and that nobody should
14 cause any kind of incident which would lead the Serbs to be nervous for
15 any reason, to arrest somebody then and beat someone up or kill someone,
16 as retaliation, that we should not create any incidents, just to do our
17 best and lie low and see to the safety of our families.
18 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, actually, while I'm on this page of his
19 statement, page 6, I want to point to two typographical errors that appear
20 in the English translation.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Hannis.
22 MR. HANNIS: I've been told by the interpreter that I'm stating
23 this correctly. Paragraph 32, the last line, it's part of a sentence that
24 says: After that, I never tired to go to a checkpoint. I'm told that
25 should be I never tried to go through a checkpoint.
1 And paragraph 35, the last line on the bottom of that page, the
2 sentence says: These young soldiers were dresses in partial uniform. That
3 should be "dressed" in partial uniform.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for these clarifications.
5 MR. HANNIS: One more, Your Honour. I forgot. In paragraph 29,
6 the second line, Red Berets is misspelled as b-a-r-e-t-s instead of
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. HANNIS: And there was one consideration that my translator
10 indicated that I should perhaps have the witness read a statement and have
11 it interpreted here because there's some debate about it, I guess.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. HANNIS: Paragraph 29, the second sentence, which says: On
14 the final visit.
15 Q. Mr. Crncalo, could you look at paragraph 29 in your ICTY
16 statement, the one from 2001, and the second sentence, if you could read
17 that out, and we'll have the interpreters translate it into English and
18 see if it matches what's written here.
19 A. Shall I start on the occasion of the last visit, or final visit,
20 latest visit?
21 Q. Yes, please.
22 A. "On the occasion of the last visit, he said that some units of the
23 Red Berets had come to Pale and that he could not guarantee the safety of
24 the Muslims living in that area. I was told that they were Serbs from
25 Knin. He told us --"
1 Q. I'm sorry. That's all I needed, was that sentence. There was
2 some question about whether it was last, final, previous visit, and
3 whether or not it was "he said" or "he had said."
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note "poslednji" can be either of
5 those, last, final.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was our last meeting.
7 MR. HANNIS:
8 Q. And was that the meeting at which Mr. Koljevic was present or was
9 that another meeting?
10 A. When Koljevic was present.
11 Q. Thank you. That's all I needed to clarify on that, Your Honour.
12 Thank you.
13 Now, Mr. Crncalo, I want to ask you a couple of questions about
14 checkpoints. In your statement, in paragraph 31 and 32, you talk about
15 the existence of some checkpoints set up around the area of Pale, manned
16 by paramilitaries and police. Would you tell the Court about the
17 experience you had on the one occasion when you tried to go through a
18 checkpoint. Who was manning the checkpoints that you passed through or
19 attempted to pass through?
20 A. I have a piece of property a little further from Pale, and I was
21 going there to do some work on the land, and I took -- I left from my
22 company and came back quickly. When I reached the checkpoint, I was
23 stopped there by some young soldiers whom I didn't know. They asked to
24 see my ID, my papers, and as soon as they saw that my surname was Muslim,
25 the one that was standing next to the other one looking at my documents
1 cocked his -- directed his rifle at me and held the rifle cocked at me
2 while I was showing them what I had in the boot of my car, what was inside
3 the car. He asked me whether I had any weapons. I said I did not. And I
4 said they were free to take a look. He took a look, and in the meantime,
5 the workers were going back from work. It was 10 to 3.00 the end of the
6 day. We all knew each other, but nobody reacted. They all sort of turned
7 their heads away to avoid seeing what was happening to me.
8 So I gained the impression that my colleagues from work -- that it
9 didn't matter at all to my colleagues from work. And then I went and told
10 what -- said what had happened to me at the -- they let me go. They let
11 me off, past the checkpoint.
12 Q. And who were the -- what kind of uniforms were these men wearing?
13 A. They were wearing the typical type of uniform, winter uniforms,
14 actually, that were worn by the army, by the military, from the communist
15 day, from Tito's army.
16 Q. What was their ethnicity?
17 A. Tito army winter uniforms. They were Serbs.
18 Q. Did you know if they were local?
19 A. I didn't recognise them.
20 Q. Were you able to distinguish anything about their accent?
21 A. The one who asked to see my ID papers, I couldn't notice any
22 accent. The other one, cocking his rifle at me, didn't say anything. He
23 didn't utter a word. So I can't say what his accent was.
24 Q. Were you able to get to where you wanted to go that day?
25 A. Yes. I got only halfway, and I had to return after that.
1 Q. Why did you have to return? What happened?
2 A. As I reached the second checkpoint in front of the
3 stambocici [phoen] tunnel, I recognised men and they recognised me,
4 because we used to work together. The two of them approached me and asked
5 me where I was off to. And I said: You know where I normally go. I go
6 to my land to work.
7 And these two men told me: Go back. You are better off not going
8 there. And if you pass by the other checkpoint, you will be lucky. Go
9 back home.
10 On the way back, I was again stopped at the first checkpoint.
11 They inspected my ID. They let me through, and after that, I could never
12 leave home to go anywhere.
13 Q. Your two former co-workers at the second checkpoint, what was
14 their ethnicity?
15 A. Serb.
16 Q. And were they in any kind of uniform on that occasion?
17 A. Yes. The reserve army uniforms, the winter uniforms, not the
18 camouflage uniforms.
19 Q. I want to move on to another event, in your statement at paragraph
20 33 you talk about an occasion when you saw some young Muslim men being
21 arrested down by the bus station. Can you tell us who the people were --
22 you described them as paramilitaries in camouflage uniforms, arresting.
23 Do you know the ethnicity of those men who were making the arrests?
24 A. I saw three men, one of whom I recognised. The other two I didn't
25 recognise. The other two were directly involved in that action, so to
1 speak. They arrested people, put them in the car, and drove them off to
2 the police station.
3 Q. Who was the person you recognised involved in this?
4 A. He was my daughter's teacher, Zoran Skoba.
5 Q. Is it Skoba?
6 A. Skobo.
7 Q. And is he related to the Jovan Skobo who is a policeman you told
8 us about earlier?
9 A. They are brothers.
10 Q. Did you also know a Rade Skobo in Pale?
11 A. I know him well. Rade Skobo is their father, and he was a
12 medicine man. He used to treat people with herbs, and people said that he
13 was very often successful in administering treatment to them.
14 Q. Do you know if Rade Skobo was a member of the SDS?
15 A. He was certainly a member of the SDS. I don't know whether he
16 held any other positions. I wouldn't be able to say.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, one of the previous questions has not
18 been fully answered, and I'd like to solicit an answer from the witness.
19 You told us, Mr. Crncalo, that the three paramilitaries in
20 camouflage uniforms who made the arrest, that you knew one of them, but
21 the question was put to you what their ethnicity was. Could you tell us
22 about that.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Serbs.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You have been asked several times -- let me
25 first ask you: The other two were unknown to you, as far as I understand.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
2 JUDGE ORIE: How did you know that the other two unknown to you
3 were Serbs?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the Republika Srpska army did not
5 have any other ethnic groups, so it could not have been any other ethnic
7 JUDGE ORIE: And the paramilitaries were members of the -- were
8 part of the Republika Srpska army?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then a similar question in respect of the three
11 policemen who came to arrest you. You testified that you didn't know
12 them, but you also testified that they were Serbs. How did you know that
13 they were Serbs?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but how did you know?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A minute ago I was talking about
17 mobilisation, which took place while I still worked, while I still could
18 go to work. No Muslim was ever called. No Muslim ever received call-up
19 papers. Just the Serbs did. Nobody in Pale could be either a policeman
20 or a soldier but the Serbs, because at that time all the Muslims had
21 already been dismissed from work. It could only be Serbs. Only Serbs
22 could be members of either the reserve army or the reserve police.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
25 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Zoran Skobo, who you saw on this date at the bus station, was he
2 wearing any kind of uniform?
3 A. Yes. He wore a camouflage uniform.
4 Q. Any insignia on that or rank?
5 A. I didn't see any. Even if there had been any, it would have been
6 very hard for me to notice them.
7 Q. Next, Mr. Crncalo, I want to ask you about paragraph 34. You talk
8 about sometime in April or May of 1992, your telephone service was cut
9 off. Do you know if the telephone service was cut off for all citizens in
10 Pale municipality, or only a certain group?
11 A. Only a certain group of population was cut off. There were women
12 who went to ask the Serb women to give them access to the telephone so
13 that they could inquire about their relatives in Sarajevo. That is how I
14 know that only non-Serbs had their telephone lines cut off.
15 Q. Did you have your own telephone service cut off?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'd like to show the witness a document
18 now, the next exhibit.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That would be number, Madam Registrar?
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P272.
21 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. This is an order with a list of names.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please put on your microphone.
23 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry. This is an order with a list of names,
24 and the ERN is 0208-9424.
25 Q. Mr. Crncalo, I suppose I should ask you first: Do you read
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. This is a document dated the 7th of May, 1992, which purports to
4 be an order from the Crisis Staff of Pale, about disconnecting certain
5 phone lines. Would you look at the names on that list and tell me if you
6 recognise, first of all, the person listed at number 12.
7 A. I recognise that name. We were arrested together on that night,
8 on the 3rd or the 4th of March. I was arrested first, and then half an
9 hour later he was brought in. His name is Munib Kadric.
10 Q. And are you able to tell us what the ethnicity of the 15 people on
11 that list would be, based on their names?
12 A. Muslims.
13 Q. Now, were you given any prior warning or indication that your
14 telephone service was going to be cut off?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you. You can set that document aside now. I'm finished
17 with it.
18 Mr. Crncalo, you state in your ICTY statement, in paragraph 35,
19 that in May and June of 1992, you noticed a bigger concentration of
20 military equipment and military presence. Can you tell the Judges what
21 you began to notice about that time in terms of the increased military
22 presence? What kinds of soldiers, and how many were you seeing that you
23 had not seen previously?
24 A. Next to the Famos factory, there is a place where you could store
25 wheat. Big lorries would pass by, and as they were passing by, you could
1 tell that they were loaded. I suppose that there was grain in the
2 lorries. And they were escorted by armoured vehicles. That was at the
4 Later on, instead of those lorries, you could see an occasional
5 lorry, but also you could see military vehicles. They didn't all go
6 towards silo, but towards the Jahorinski Potok barracks. It lasted for
7 days, and later on there were buses loaded with troops. And the most
8 difficult thing for us to see were half-dressed young men. They were
9 bare-chested. Mind you, it was hot. They had armbands. They had bands
10 around their heads. They had knives on both of their flanks. They had
11 rifles, pistols, hand grenades. They drove by in convertibles. They
12 acted in a very arrogant way and they instilled fear in us. Every now and
13 then, you could see them in Pale, in all the streets. On two occasions,
14 they came up to my house and they inquired about my neighbour's lorry.
15 The first time they appeared, I was stunned with fear. I didn't know what
16 would happen. They asked me who the car belonged to. I couldn't speak.
17 My neighbour appeared and nodded towards me, and I told him: They're
18 inquiring about the car. He said the car was his. And they said: Okay.
19 We'll come back later to inspect the car. Maybe we'll need it.
20 They behaved as if there was no control over them, as if there was
21 nobody who could prevent them from doing anything that they wanted to do.
22 At least, that's the way they behaved.
23 Q. Let me stop you there. These two that came to your house in
24 particular, I think you said it was two, did you have a conversation with
25 them? And if so, were you able to tell anything from their accent where
1 they were from?
2 A. They were not locals. They had a slightly different accent.
3 Q. And you've described this group of military types that don't sound
4 like a regular army. You say they were bare-chested and they had two
5 knives and they were wearing headbands, et cetera. How many of these kind
6 of military men or young men did you see in Pale municipality during this
8 A. Truth be told, I could give you my estimate, but I can't give you
9 their exact number. There were hundreds of them.
10 Q. In addition to those, were there what appeared to be more regular
11 army-type soldiers stationed in Pale or present in Pale?
12 A. Shall I compare the ones that were only partially dressed and the
13 regular troops?
14 Q. Yes. If you can give me an estimate based on that comparison.
15 A. There were more regular troops than those that were poorly dressed
16 or half dressed.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Crncalo, I want to ask you a question, and first of all,
18 I'll ask you a yes-or-no question. Based on what you saw of these, we'll
19 say, non-regular soldiers, and which you described as paramilitary in your
20 statement, based on what you saw of them, and given the size of the town
21 of Pale that you told us about and the way they were behaving, do you have
22 an opinion - yes or no - about whether those troops could have gone
23 unnoticed by anybody living and working in Pale at that time? Yes or no.
24 Do you have an opinion?
25 A. They could not go unnoticed. All day long they were moving around
1 Pale in their cars. They would stop by the bus station. They would pop
2 in a coffee bar, have something to drink. Then they would go back to
3 their cars and continue driving up and down. The town of Pale was full of
4 these people.
5 Q. Now, you mentioned earlier, I think, that there was a time prior
6 to May and June when the Republika Srpska government had relocated its
7 headquarters to Pale. Do you know where in Pale their headquarters were
9 A. As far as I could tell, the TV station was also close to the
10 culture centre, and on one occasion I saw Mr. Karadzic delivering a speech
11 there. So judging by all that, I would say that they were in the culture
13 Q. Did you ever learn that they were in another location later on, or
14 was that the only place you believed or were aware that they were located?
15 A. I have just remembered a detail with regard to the culture centre,
16 and I can now say with more certainty that the government must have been
17 in the culture centre, because there were six soldiers standing guard in
18 front of the culture centre. So judging by that, it is certain that it
19 was in the culture centre. Very soon, it was relocated to another place
20 close to the railway station. The name of the place is Koran. That's
21 where a flyover is now. This is where the government premises used to be
22 in Pale municipality.
23 Q. First of all, can you tell where the cultural centre was located
24 in Pale in relation to the police station? Was it nearby? How far,
1 A. Close to the police station. I won't be wrong if I say that the
2 distance was 350 to 400 metres. And it was the building adjacent to the
3 Orthodox Church.
4 Q. And the second area you told us about, Koran, is that in Pale, the
5 town? How far is that from the cultural centre and the police station
6 that you've told us about?
7 A. It is in Pale, in the town of Pale. The local commune is also
8 called Koran. And the distance between the cultural centre and the police
9 and Koran is about a kilometre, maybe not even that. But let's say that
10 it is about a kilometre.
11 Q. Thank you. Next I want to ask you about something described in
12 paragraph 36 of your statement. You talk about an occasion in May 1992
13 when you saw three truckloads of men arriving in town and you say that
14 these were some Muslim men from Bratunac. How did you get the information
15 that these were Muslim men from Bratunac? What was your source?
16 A. I heard it on the spot. There were people standing next to those
17 trucks, saying: Balijas had been captured in Bratunac and brought here to
19 Q. And did you actually see the men that were on the truck?
20 A. Yes. I saw them on the truck. Some had scars on their bodies.
21 Not all of them, but some did. And I would say that they had been
22 gathered from their stables and fields, because it was the time of spring
23 sowing. I would say that they were just gathered from wherever they were
24 at the time. I would never say that they were members of any army.
25 Q. What kind of clothing were they dressed in?
1 A. Civilian clothes, rubber boots, overalls, working clothes. Some
2 wore jumpers. Some had their boots soiled with excrement, with manure.
3 That's why I know that they had been gathered from their stables, from
4 their workplaces.
5 Q. In your earlier answer about what you saw, you said some had --
6 it's translated in English as: Some had scars on their bodies. Scar to
7 me indicates the healing of an old wound. Are you talking about old
8 wounds or fresher wounds?
9 A. You could see drying blood on their faces, which means that those
10 were fresh wounds. Those were not lethal wounds, but just wounds that
11 people sustained from having been beaten by something.
12 Q. Let me ask you: What time day or night was this that you saw
13 these trucks arrive? If you remember.
14 A. It was during the day, around noon, or sometime between noon and
15 1.00 p.m.
16 Q. And what part of town were you in, or were these trucks in when
17 you saw them?
18 A. Close to the police station, towards the cultural centre. That's
19 where the lorries were.
20 Q. And you describe the president of the municipality coming out and
21 saying something. Were you actually close enough to hear him have that
22 discussion about what to be done with these prisoners?
23 A. He came and he was embarrassed. He didn't know what to do with
24 these people. His comment was: Why did you bring them here? I don't
25 have anywhere to put them. Take them back from where you brought them.
1 I don't know his name, his first name. I know that his family
2 name was Starcevic and this was his comment.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, may I again ask you to carefully listen
4 to the question, because what that person said appears in your statement.
5 But the specific question put to you was whether you were close enough to
6 hear the conversation of this person with the men on the truck. So that's
7 what Mr. Hannis wanted to know from you. We know already from your
8 statement what he said. Could you please answer that question now,
9 whether you were close enough, perhaps at what distance.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't -- he wasn't talking to
11 the people that were brought into the truck. He didn't say anything to
12 them at all. I was quite close, so I could hear or not hear.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And to whom did he then speak?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the drivers that drove them.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you said you were close enough. At what
16 distance, approximately?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About ten metres.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
20 MR. HANNIS:
21 Q. And were you able to see who the drivers of these trucks were and
22 whether or not they were wearing any uniforms?
23 A. No. They had that -- the uniforms of the regular army formations,
24 but no insignia that I saw.
25 Q. And where was the place that Mr. Starcevic told the drivers to
1 take these people?
2 A. Well, I understood it that they were taking them from where they
3 had come, to Bratunac, that is, and I heard the locals say that they had
4 brought in the balijas from Bratunac.
5 Q. I'm sorry. Maybe you misunderstood. Where did Mr. Starcevic say
6 the drivers should put those prisoners in Pale? In your statement, you
7 say the cinema, but can you tell me where the cinema is in relation to the
8 police station, for example? How close is that?
9 A. He said that they should take them back to where they came from.
10 But yes, they did take them to the cinema hall, and the cinema hall is
11 right by the police station. How far? Well, about 20 metres in between.
12 Q. Thank you. Next, Mr. Crncalo, I want to ask you about the
13 occasion when you went to work and were told that you should go home and
14 that you weren't going to have to come in to work any more. The first
15 thing I want to ask you: In your ICTY statement, you referred to that as
16 happening on May 15th of 1992, which by my calendar appears to have been
17 on a Friday. And I believe in your 1995 statement to the High Court in
18 Sarajevo, you mention the date of the 27th of May, which again by my
19 calendar I think is a Wednesday. As you sit here today now, do you know
20 whether it was the 15th of May or the 27th of May?
21 A. I think it was on the 15th of May.
22 Q. And in helping you place it in time, do you know if that occurred,
23 the event at work, when you were told to go home, did that occur before or
24 after you had seen these men from Bratunac arrive on the trucks?
25 A. Afterwards.
1 Q. And do you recall if it occurred before or after you and your --
2 some of your neighbours had had the meeting with -- which Mr. Koljevic
3 attended? Before or after that meeting?
4 A. It was before the meeting.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, next I want to go to paragraph 40 in your ICTY
6 statement, where you talk about in late June and early July, convoys to
7 remove Muslims being organised. How were you and your neighbours, your
8 Muslim neighbours, informed about this fact, that there were going to be
9 convoys to take Muslims out of Pale? Did you see it on TV? Did someone
10 come and tell you? How did you find out?
11 A. It was on television. Or rather --
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat whether it was or was
13 not on television. Could the witness repeat his answer, please.
14 A. They said that a part of Pale -- there would be written
15 instructions and one location would be pinpointed for one day and then for
16 the next day and that everybody would be informed when written information
17 would be sent as to which part of Pale should withdraw, on what day.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, was this on television that you heard
19 this or was that by any other way?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could he repeat it again, please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The interpreters are having some difficulties
22 in understanding exactly or hearing exactly what you say. Could you
23 please perhaps -- was it on television you heard it? Could you please
24 answer by yes or no.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, it wasn't on television.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then where or when did you hear that?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Kojic came and Skobo came, and
3 launched their propaganda to the effect that we should move out, that was
4 the first piece of information that we were required to move out. But we
5 didn't believe it, and not to waste your time, the last time there was a
6 notice printed up on a visible place in town, a written notice, saying
7 that one street would have to move away, and then another. People didn't
8 comment. They just came and gathered at one particular location. They
9 boarded buses and were taken away. So that's what happened. The written
10 notice, it started around the veterinary station Slavisa Vajnar Cice was
11 the street, part of that street near the veterinary station. They rounded
12 up all the people and they were taken off.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So you found a kind of a schedule on that piece of
14 paper who would have to go, when, to the buses; is that correct? I see
15 you're nodding.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You're now also saying yes.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
19 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. So I understand, Mr. Crncalo: Then even though it had been talked
21 about before, the first sort of official, in black and white, notice that
22 this was actually happening was an announcement printed on a piece of
23 paper and posted somewhere in the neighbourhood where people were going to
24 have to be leaving from; is that right?
25 A. Yes, that's right.
1 Q. And did the announcement have any information on it about who this
2 schedule for departure was coming from? Was there any official reference
3 to an agency or a body that was setting this up? Or did it just have a
4 schedule: 9.00, be at this location?
5 A. No political party or structure, the municipality or the police,
6 took over responsibility for that. There was just this information saying
7 that we had to move out.
8 Q. And did you go to talk to anybody about that to ask whose idea was
9 this, and did you really have to go?
10 A. Well, yes. A number of times we did talk to the chief of police
11 and the chief of the municipality when the first convoy left towards
12 Sarajevo, a day or two afterwards we went to see the municipality
13 president to ask him again what had happened to those people, why did
14 those people have to leave, what have you done to the people? And he
15 said: They must have infringed upon the law in some way, done something
16 unlawful. But then we said: But they'll say the same about us. They'll
17 say that we did something against the law and that we would have to move
18 out, whereas we had done nothing yet. Whereas if we get on the bus, that
19 would automatically mean that we had done something wrong, something
21 Q. And what did he say when you told him about that and pointed that
22 out to him?
23 A. He didn't say anything. He made no comment. When we said that we
24 would probably be -- that it would probably be said that we had done
25 something against the law if we had boarded the buses and were taken off
1 somewhere, that the same would happen to us. We didn't know at which
2 destination, but he just kept quiet. He didn't have an answer to give us.
3 Q. So do you know whose decision it was that the Muslims were going
4 to have to get on buses and leave Pale?
5 A. We asked for the possibility of getting a reply from the president
6 of the municipality and the chief of police, whereas they kept sending us
7 from one to the other. But neither of them gave us an answer. And then
8 we concluded that most probably the decision was taken by the SDS Crisis
9 Staff, that that should be done, that what happened should be done.
10 Q. I think you said before you had a home in Pale. Did you own your
11 property? Did you own your house in Pale at that time?
12 A. Yes, I did. I was the owner of my own house.
13 Q. And did you have to make some arrangement about that before you
14 left Pale? What became of your property?
15 A. A woman came by and said she wanted to move into my house, and she
16 gave me the address of her own house in Sarajevo. And she said that I was
17 to go with her to the municipality building to sign a contract of some
18 kind. And I had no choice. I had to go to the municipality. I was a
19 little surprised by it all, because it was all typed up. There were forms
20 that were already typed out, standard forms, and they introduced our data,
21 mine and hers. And the agreement was that I should hand over the keys and
22 leave my home.
23 Q. And who was this woman who came to your house, and what was her
25 A. Her name was Dragica Subotic. She was a Serb and she had two
1 sons, Miro and Zoran. I saw Miro. I didn't see Zoran.
2 Q. And why was your house the one that she picked? If you know.
3 A. I don't know. I really don't know.
4 Q. Did you want to exchange your house for her property?
5 A. I mentioned on one occasion that at my place of work, in our
6 company, they asked me when I was going to leave my house, and I said that
7 I cannot, neither do I wish to leave my house, for as long as I'm alive.
8 But when I saw what was happening, I decided to save my life and the lives
9 of my family members rather than save my house, so I had to relinquish it
10 and hand it over.
11 Q. When she came and told you that you had to go somewhere and sign
12 some papers, did she say whether you had a choice about whether to sign or
14 A. The police on one occasion said: If anybody refused to do so,
15 they had to go to the police station and leave the keys there, the keys to
16 their houses there.
17 Q. So did there come a time about then when a notice appeared in your
18 neighbourhood saying that you and your neighbours were going to have to
19 get on a bus, a convoy, and leave?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. And I think you've told us before you left on the 2nd of July,
22 1992; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you know how many convoys had already left Pale with Muslims
25 before the 2nd of July?
1 A. Two convoys, and I was in the third.
2 Q. Do you know approximately how many people left in those first two
3 convoys? If you can give us an approximate number.
4 A. The buses were packed full. There were seven buses in the first
5 convoy and six in the second. In my particular convoy, there were five.
6 I don't know about the other two convoys.
7 Q. And were these standard, full sized buses, and approximately how
8 many people were in each one, if you know?
9 A. The buses were the intercity type of bus line, which takes about a
10 hundred people. The number of seats plus the number of standing places.
11 So certainly, 90, and probably more.
12 Q. What about your personal property -- well, first of all, did you
13 own a car in addition to your house?
14 A. Yes, I did have a car.
15 Q. What became of it?
16 A. I had to leave my car behind too, and the keys to the car, and my
17 driving permit.
18 Q. And how much personal property were you allowed to take out with
20 A. What we could carry. That's what we were allowed to take.
21 Q. Now, after these 18 buses of Muslims were driven out of Pale, do
22 you know, were there any Muslims remaining in Pale after your convoy left?
23 A. Yes. Some people did stay. Two convoys from the urban part of
24 Pale. And then they went to the local communes and the villages, to
25 evacuate those people and to transport them to Sarajevo.
1 Q. Were you aware of any Muslims who stayed behind and did not go out
2 on any of these convoys?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Approximately how many were you aware of?
5 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you --
6 A. About 12, perhaps a little more.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Were you consulting your statement, Mr. Crncalo? I
8 saw you looking down, so I just wondered whether you -- yes, you have
9 written notes there or ...
10 Mr. Hannis, it was unclear, to me at least, what source was
11 consulted by the witness, and could you please -- of course, I can
12 imagine -- yes, could you please clarify this.
13 MR. HANNIS:
14 Q. Mr. Crncalo, the Judge was just asking you if you were looking at
15 something in relation to the last question. Can you tell him what that is
16 that you have in your hand that you were referring to, please.
17 A. I just counted the people who stayed behind in Pale, those who did
18 not leave in the convoys, who stayed on to live in their own houses.
19 Q. And can I ask you what that piece of paper is that you were
20 looking at just then. What is that? Where does that come from? Who
21 wrote that?
22 A. I wrote it.
23 Q. And when did you write that?
24 A. Well, I wrote it a year ago.
25 Q. And for what purpose did you write that?
1 A. Well, before I gave a statement to The Hague investigators, using
2 the same piece of paper.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, then, that this is an aide memoire that is
4 consulted. I have no further questions on that.
5 MR. STEWART: I do, Your Honour. Your Honour, perhaps just out
6 of -- Ms. Cmeric suggests for precaution's sake perhaps the witness should
7 take his headphones off for a moment.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I then would prefer that --
9 MR. HANNIS: I'm nearly finished, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps, Mr. Stewart, nearly finished means a
11 couple of questions?
12 MR. HANNIS: Five minutes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Five minutes. I would now continue, then have a
14 break. But before we have the break and we ask the witness to leave the
15 courtroom and whatever has to be said could be said at that moment.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
17 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
18 Q. Were you looking at that note just now to count up the number of
19 names of people you knew who remained behind?
20 A. Yes, that's right.
21 Q. And having done that, does that refresh your recollection about
22 approximately how many people were left behind, that you're aware of?
23 A. I just wanted to check whether I was right.
24 Q. And were you? And if so, what was that number?
25 A. Well, I said 12, and I can give you this list to read.
1 Q. No. That's all right. And did you later learn what happened to
2 those 12 people who remained behind in Pale? What was their fate during
3 the war? I just need a short answer. I don't need specifics about each
5 A. They were all killed.
6 Q. Thank you. Lastly, Your Honour, I would like to show the witness
7 one more exhibit. The English ERN is 0304-6729. The B/C/S is 0207-2618.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P273 for the original B/C/S and
9 P273.1 for the English translation.
10 MR. HANNIS:
11 Q. Mr. Crncalo, while that's on the way, I want to ask you: Before
12 you left Pale, did you see any Red Berets in Pale, and if so, where were
14 A. When we got into the buses and started out, near the Panorama
15 Hotel, behind a privately owned house, I saw some soldiers wearing red
16 berets. Two of them -- that's where I saw the Red Berets, as far as Pale
18 Q. And that was on the day that you left, on the 2nd of July?
19 A. 2nd of July, yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Now I want to ask you about the document you've been
21 handed, and if my learned friend will accept this, what I propose to do is
22 just read one paragraph and ask him for a comment.
23 Mr. Crncalo, this is a document dated the 19th of July, from
24 the -- purportedly from the Serbian Republic Presidency, and the first
25 paragraph says: It's directed to several municipalities, including Pale
1 municipality, and it says in the first paragraph: In close cooperation
2 with public security stations, you are kindly requested to make an
3 inventory of all housing facilities, summer cottages, houses, and flats,
4 in your municipality that are vacant following the voluntary departure of
6 Mr. Crncalo, my question to you is: Was your departure from Pale
8 A. No, nor would I ever have done that voluntarily, to leave my house
9 and leave all my property behind, everything that I had accrued during my
10 years of work.
11 Q. So why did you leave?
12 A. Well, I was forced to. I was forced to sign that contract on the
13 exchange and to leave my house.
14 MR. HANNIS: Those are all the questions I have, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Hannis.
16 Mr. Crncalo, we'll have a break now, and after the break you'll be
17 examined by counsel for the Defence.
18 Madam Usher, could you escort the witness out of the courtroom.
19 And Mr. Stewart, I'll then give you an opportunity to just
20 make ... If you could ...
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stewart, or Mr. Hannis.
23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think we need to address the issue of
24 the piece of paper he was referring to.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was wondering. I couldn't see what happened,
1 as a matter of fact.
2 MR. STEWART: It's actually gone out in the witness's pocket,
3 Your Honour, which is -- which is maybe -- probably what Your Honour
4 noticed. I --
5 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed that and I asked myself whether I had to
6 call him back and to see whether I had to instruct him to keep it or not.
7 I take it that it's in his pocket.
8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'd rather come to the conclusion that
9 the witness came back and announced that he had destroyed the piece of
10 paper or lost it over the few minutes out of court that that would raise
11 questions so I decided not to mention that matter.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I wondered whether we would -- let me just ...
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber takes no further action in respect of the
15 paper at this moment, the piece of paper.
16 Was there anything else you'd like to --
17 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, Your Honour, the question of the paper
18 leaving the court came after I stood up to say something about it, so I
19 clearly must have had another point in mind, I think.
20 JUDGE ORIE: It's the right pocket, yes.
21 MR. STEWART: That seems to be a detail, Your Honour. The --
22 Your Honour, the piece of paper, well, first of all, may I just say as a
23 matter of general practice and it's just for the future, it's not a big
24 deal as far as the past is concerned, it would be a good idea, we suggest,
25 if perhaps the usher could be instructed just to ensure as a matter of
1 housekeeping that any witness giving evidence only has on the table in
2 front of that witness the specific material that counsel are inviting or
3 the Tribunal are inviting the witness to look at. We've had this once or
5 JUDGE ORIE: I'd rather ask the parties to keep an eye on that,
6 because Madam Usher is at approximately the same distance as I usually am,
7 and of course if she sees there are documents not handed out to the
8 witness she could inform the registrar, or could then inform me and we
9 could ask for this. But if either of the parties sees that the witness is
10 consulting documents that are unknown to the Chamber or to the other
11 party, that my intention is drawn to that.
12 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, absolutely, entirely. We --
13 we -- I wasn't for one moment -- I don't suppose Mr. Hannis would
14 either -- I wasn't for one moment attempting to shuffle off that
15 responsibility. We do --
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, no.
17 MR. STEWART: We do that anyway, Your Honour. It's just that the
18 usher has frequent opportunities in the course of the case to be very
19 close to the desk which we don't have. That's all. So, as a supplement
20 to our alertness that would be helpful. But the more substantial point,
21 Your Honour, is that I asked to see and have the opportunity of taking a
22 copy of that note.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll ask the witness to, after we have resumed,
24 the first thing I'll ask him to -- ask him first of all whether he has any
25 objection to show it to you. And then we'll see what happens. Yes, if he
1 voluntarily does --
2 MR. STEWART: Indeed, Your Honour. We'll take it step by step in
3 the way that --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what I suggest. So we'll do that after
5 the break. We'll have a break for 20 minutes, we'll resume at 10 minutes
6 to 1.00. Yes, Mr. Hannis.
7 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, do you remember that we briefly
11 discussed the small memo you had. Do you hear me? Yes. We discussed the
12 small memo you consulted. I even noticed that you offered to Mr. Hannis
13 to look at it. Would you mind if Defence counsel would have a look at
14 that piece of paper you consulted? Yes? Well, if you -- if you would ask
15 Madam Usher to give it, then, to Mr. Stewart. It will be returned to you
16 anyhow, but perhaps it might be asked that a copy would be made. But --
17 so it's open to everyone what piece of paper you consulted at that moment.
18 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, Your Honour. We'd like to make a copy.
19 The only question is what's the most practically convenient. We needn't
20 have a long debate about it. We can arrange to have a copy made straight
21 away or --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's the proper way of doing it is asking the
23 registrar. Madam Usher if you'll --
24 MR. STEWART: That's preferable for us, Your Honour. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It will remain in the hands of the Chamber, or at
1 least of the usher. We'll make a copy of it and the original will be
2 returned to you for the time being, unless there would be any reason why
3 the original would be needed. But it at least gives you an opportunity to
4 consult the contents.
5 MR. STEWART: That seems unlikely. We've had a glance. It seems
6 unlikely. It looks as if a photocopy is going to be perfectly adequate,
7 Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I hope the usher is aware that it's a document with
9 two sides written on. Yes.
10 Then, Mr. Crncalo, you'll now be examined by Mr. Stewart, who is
11 counsel for the Defence.
12 Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
13 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart:
15 Q. Mr. Crncalo, first of all, mobilisation, which came up in the
16 course of your evidence this morning, the position was this, wasn't it,
17 that Muslims in your area were, in fact, officially called up to join the
18 army, but that the Muslim leaders directed them not to go. That's right,
19 isn't it?
20 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, could we have a time frame for that?
21 Because he was talking about, I think, May of 1992, and there were more
22 than one mobilisation.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please specify or -- Mr. Stewart.
24 MR. STEWART: Well --
25 MR. HANNIS: I think I misspoke. I think I said May, and I meant
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 January of 1992.
2 JUDGE ORIE: At least the witness answered this morning questions
3 about whether or not actually being called for mobilisation, and I take it
4 that we're referring to that answer, Mr. Stewart, or is it broader?
5 MR. STEWART: No. I was referring to his -- as I introduced my
6 question to his specific evidence given this morning. Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So, Mr. Crncalo, the question is whether it was
8 not the case when you talked this morning about mobilisation that Muslims
9 actually were mobilised but were advised not to respond to any call for
10 mobilisation. Would you please answer that question.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not mention any advice given
12 about mobilisation. The only people that were called up were Serbs.
13 Muslims were never invited to join the army, either orally or in a written
15 MR. STEWART:
16 Q. Now, let's get it absolutely clear, then, Mr. Crncalo. First of
17 all, are you aware that in the course of, I think it was late 1991, but
18 certainly at the beginning of 1992, that in at least some parts of Bosnia
19 and Herzegovina, there was a call-up to join the army, a call-up of Serbs,
20 Muslims, possibly others, but certainly a call-up that included both Serbs
21 and Muslims? Are you aware of that?
22 A. I am. I'm aware of that. I heard it on TV.
23 Q. I'm sorry. Did I stop your answer?
24 A. Yes. It was suggested by the political structures from Sarajevo
25 that such a mobilisation call should not be responded to. In 1992, Pale
1 and Sarajevo were two totally separate places.
2 Q. Two separate -- well, they're two separate places. We know that.
3 Physically. But in what sense do you mean that Sarajevo and Pale were two
4 separate places?
5 A. Whatever suggestions came from Sarajevo, they couldn't do anything
6 to either help us or not help us. I'm talking about the population. I am
7 talking about what was going on in Pale.
8 Q. Mr. Crncalo, in the first few months - January, February, March -
9 of 1992, Sarajevo was in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Pale was, and still is,
10 in Bosnia and Herzegovina. You were aware, you say, from the television,
11 you were aware that there was in many parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina a
12 call-up. This was the JNA, a call-up of men, including both Muslims and
13 Serbs. We're agreed on that much so far, are we?
14 A. In 1992, that is, from the beginning of 1992, if I may be allowed
15 to explain the situation to you that prevailed in Pale at the time.
16 Q. Can we just confirm your agreement so far to what I've just put to
17 you, and then that gives us a starting point. Do you need it to be
19 A. No, I don't need this to be repeated. I've heard you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.
21 MR. HANNIS: I was going to ask that it be supplemented with a
22 specific time frame, because as I understand it, there were two or three
23 different call-ups at different times in 1991 and 1992.
24 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 [Defence counsel confer]
2 MR. STEWART:
3 Q. Well, the time frame that I indicated in my question was January,
4 February, March 1992. We believe that the answers this morning in
5 relation to mobilisation related to within that period, January 1992. So
6 I'm content for the moment to proceed on the basis of January 1992, so
7 that -- I'll put it this way to you: In January 1992, you were aware,
8 were you, from the television, that there was in many parts of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina a call-up to the JNA of men, including indiscriminately
10 Muslims and Serbs? Do you agree?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. And do you say, then, that although that occurred in many parts of
13 Bosnia and Herzegovina, that in Pale, that call-up did not include
15 A. In Pale, written call-ups for mobilisation were only sent to the
16 Serbs, to the people of Serb origin.
17 Q. And how do you know that?
18 A. While I still worked, only the Serbs were mobilised. None of the
19 Muslims ever received call-up papers, nor did they join the army.
20 Q. So on the first point about whether they received call-up papers,
21 you say that from your discussions with your work colleagues, you heard
22 enough on this topic to reach a reliable conclusion that although Serbs
23 were receiving call-up papers, Muslims were not? That's what you say, is
25 A. Yes. What I've just said. I can add something to that if you
1 will allow me, if I have time to do that.
2 Q. Is it in answer to my question, what you wish to add?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. All right. Well, please do, then.
5 A. If anybody had received call-up papers, they would have had to
6 respond. There was no other way out of that. Because the military police
7 was still in place, the way if existed before the war. So if anybody had
8 failed to respond to the call-up, they would have had to be brought in.
9 Q. Do you know, Mr. Crncalo, that in at least some other parts of
10 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Muslims, on quite a significant scale, did not
11 respond to their call-up?
12 A. I don't know about other parts of Bosnia. I know what was going
13 on in Pale. I don't know what was going on in other parts of Bosnia.
14 Q. Were you aware of any sort of direction or advice coming from
15 Muslim leaders in relation to any part of Bosnia and Herzegovina that
16 Muslims should not respond to their call-up?
17 A. Like I've just said a while ago, I heard such comments on TV.
18 However, an ordinary person, an ordinary man from the street, should they
19 have received call-up papers, they had to respond. If they had failed to
20 do that, they would have been brought in.
21 Q. All right. Let me ask you about a different topic, then. Let me
22 ask you about what you've described in your evidence concerning the 6th of
23 May, 1991. Now, the 6th of May is or it certainly was in that year a
24 traditional Serb holiday. That's right, isn't it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And in your statement, this is paragraph 11 of your -- what I'll
2 call your main statement, given to this Tribunal on the 8th of June, 2001,
3 you've said that Seselj had re-established the Chetniks on the Romanija
4 mountain at Novakova Pecina. Now, in what sense and to what degree do you
5 say that Mr. Seselj re-established the Chetniks?
6 A. I have just said that it is part of the Hajduk tradition, this
7 Novak's cave on Mount Romanija, and although the Chetnik movement was
8 abolished, Seselj wanted to re-establish it again.
9 Q. But what do you say actually happened that constitutes a
10 re-establishment of the Chetniks on or around the 6th of May, 1991?
11 A. If you were to live in that part of Bosnia where Pale is, then you
12 would understand things more clearly. You would know exactly what I
13 meant. I meant what I said. I said what happened. Seselj's supporters
14 went up there. I don't know what they did in the cave or around the cave.
15 However, I heard later on from the Serbs, the inhabitants of these areas,
16 that on the way back, Seselj had fallen from his horse and that he had
17 hurt his head, probably because he was drunk.
18 Q. Well, we won't worry about the last point, Mr. Crncalo. May I
19 simply, for future reference on these questions, may I in a sense point
20 out to you the obvious, that I do not live and never have lived in that
21 part of Bosnia or indeed in any other parts of Bosnia, so my understanding
22 is not the point. I ask you questions so that the Tribunal and everybody
23 else can understand what you say about these matters. So please make no
24 assumptions about any knowledge on my part and assume that I have none.
25 The -- so you still haven't answered my question, which is: What
1 do you say actually happened on or around the 6th of May, 1991, that could
2 sensibly be described as a re-establishment of the Chetniks?
3 A. There was a rally, a meeting, which served to reinforce the
4 Radical Party, Seselj's Radical Party. I don't know what Seselj intended
5 to do with that rally, but I believe that it served to increase the number
6 of his party members.
7 Q. The truth is, Mr. Crncalo, that there was, as there always is
8 every year, there was a public celebration held at Novak's cave. On that
9 particular occasion, whether or not he had ever been there before or
10 since, on that particular occasion Mr. Seselj was there, maybe he fell
11 down drunk and hurt his head, who knows, but he was there. But there
12 really is no more to it than that, as far as this Chetnik issue, is there?
13 A. We expected that something bad would happen, bad for us. But
14 thank God, it didn't.
15 Q. And in fact, subsequently you were, as you described, you were
16 reassured by Serbs, weren't you, that there wasn't actually anything
17 seriously to worry about at that time in early summer and in the summer of
19 A. Nothing significant happened after that. Seselj came. He held
20 his rally. Where he went next, I don't know. In any case, after his
21 arrival and departure, there were no significant incidents. However, this
22 event instilled some fear into us.
23 Q. Yes. You've said that. And then the -- and after a while, you
24 started some sort of guard activities and then after a while you dropped
25 them, didn't you, in 1991?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And when you describe in your statement, and this is paragraph 14,
3 you say: During this time, and that's 1991, the second half of 1991
4 you're talking about, you said that -- well, in the previous paragraph,
5 13, you said: If the Chetniks and Serbs held meetings, they were held
6 outside the city centre.
7 Now, you don't know whether the Chetniks held any meetings at all
8 in the second half of 1991, do you?
9 A. I don't know how to answer that. Seselj's Radical Party and its
10 supporters that are being mentioned now, as far as I know, were located at
11 Novak's cave. All the other rallies and demonstrations from 1991 to the
12 beginning of the war itself would be often held in the centre of Pale and
13 they were shouting: We won't yield Kosovo. They were carrying a coffin
14 containing the bones of Tsar Lazar. That's at least what I was told. All
15 those who attended the rally said that were Tsar Lazar's bones in it. And
16 they were inviting people to join their rallies and demonstrations. They
17 would go through the very centre of Pale.
18 Q. Respectful suggestion. You started saying I don't know how to
19 answer that question. May I make a respectful suggestion, Mr. Crncalo,
20 that the first step would be to listen to my question and then try
21 directly to answer the question that I ask you. And the question was I
22 put to you: You don't know whether the Chetniks held any meetings at all
23 in the second half of 1991, do you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So when -- after the 6th of May, 1991, then, and we've -- I don't
1 want to pursue the cave any more- but after the 6th of May, 1991, when do
2 you say was the next meeting that took place of the Chetniks?
3 A. On the 6th of May again.
4 Q. Try to be specific there, Mr. Crncalo. Forget the 6th of May.
5 Let's move on from the 6th of May. When do you say that the next meeting
6 after the 6th of May of the Chetniks was held?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. And in fact you don't know if any further meeting was held, do
10 A. Between the 6th of May and the next year 6th of May, I don't know
11 whether there were any meetings of the Radical Party and these radical
13 Q. And when you say the Radical Party, you mean Chetniks, do you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In paragraph 14 of your statement, then, you -- during this time,
16 and it was the same period that you're talking about in that statement,
17 that's apparent, "during this time, the members of the Chetnik
18 organisation started wearing uniforms and special Chetnik hats."
19 Now, the position was this, Mr. Crncalo, wasn't it, that there was
20 no established Chetnik organisation in Pale between May 1991 and the end
21 of 1991, was there?
22 A. What I said about the 6th of May and Seselj is what I know. I
23 can't provide you with any documentation and I can't tell you anything
24 precisely about the establishment of that party or give you any dates. I
25 can't do that.
1 Q. I'm not asking you for documentation, Mr. Crncalo. When I want to
2 ask you for documentation, I will make that very clear. What I'm putting
3 to you is that from -- after the 6th of May, 1991, and in fact I'll take
4 it right through to April 1992, there was no Chetnik organisation in Pale.
5 Do you agree?
6 A. I do not agree.
7 Q. Well, can you, then, describe the scale, size, and nature of the
8 Chetnik organisation in Pale during that period?
9 A. All I can say is that I saw at the petrol station two men wearing
10 the kind of uniform that I described today and that the people I knew, the
11 Serb people I knew, when we were waiting in line to tank up, they said
12 that: There, you have Sulejman what the Chetniks look like. You can have
13 a look there and I described what they looked like and what uniforms they
14 wore this morning.
15 Q. So in your statement when you say that during this time the
16 members of the Chetnik organisation started wearing uniforms and special
17 Chetnik hats, it is only those two men at the petrol station that you
18 actually observed yourself wearing Chetnik uniforms and hats; is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you also said in your statement, same paragraph, paragraph 14:
22 "I believed these Chetniks had weapons because many Chetniks went to fight
23 at Pakrac, Croatia, and they kept their weapons when they returned to the
24 Pale area."
25 When you say many Chetniks went to fight at Pakrac, Croatia, you
1 mean, do you, many Chetniks from Pale?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. How many -- do you know the answer -- I'll rephrase. As far as
4 you know, how many men from Pale went to fight in Croatia? And the
5 timescale is the war in Croatia, which, broadly speaking, went right
6 through to the end of 1991.
7 A. Upon returning from those parts of Croatia, the state of Croatia
8 now, they were proud in their behaviour and they talked proudly and said
9 that they were the men of Vukovar, the Vukovarci, or that they had
10 returned from Pakrac.
11 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crncalo, the question was: How many men from
13 Pale went to fight in Croatia? Your answer was about how those returning
14 from Croatia behaved. You explained: Proudly. But if Mr. Stewart would
15 like to know how they behaved, he'll ask you. So could you tell us how
16 many men, approximately, from Pale went to Croatia to fight?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have the possibility of
18 knowing the number of people who went there, so I can't give you a precise
19 answer to that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You said "many." Could you give an indication of
21 what you understood when you said "many"?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the only thing that I could
23 say is that from time to time, if I were to add everybody up, I would say
24 about 50. So that would be my rough assessment, as far as I know. But as
25 to what I don't know, I'm sure that I know very little in comparison to
1 the whole.
2 JUDGE ORIE: So what you're telling us, that you knew about
3 approximately 50, but it might have been more?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. STEWART:
7 Q. Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Crncalo, Ms. Cmeric suggests that included
8 in that answer was a reference by the witness to his having heard that the
9 way it's come across on the transcript is "the only thing I could say is
10 that from time to time if I were to add everybody up, I would say about
11 50." That's expressed in unqualified terms in translation. But
12 Ms. Cmeric suggests that the witness said that he heard.
13 Is that -- perhaps I can ask it this way, Your Honour.
14 Is this -- this figure of 50 or about 50 that you put forward, is
15 that based on what you were told by other people or heard from other
17 A. Well, when I was in the company of people, of those people, coming
18 back from those battlefields, when they were talking amongst themselves
19 that they were in those two parts of the battleground, listening to them,
20 that's what I concluded. I didn't hear it from them, but listening to
21 them talk, that's what I concluded.
22 Q. Were they people at work or people that you met in a cafe, or
24 A. At work, and I don't frequent cafes much. So at work.
25 Q. So people from your work, is this what you say, people from your
1 work went to fight in Croatia and returned from fighting in Croatia? Is
2 that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In that case, presumably, Mr. Crncalo, if it's people from your
5 work, you do have a pretty firm idea of how many were involved, don't you?
6 A. Where I worked in the factory, there were 3.000 people, and I
7 can't know each of those employees, all those workers.
8 Q. At the moment, I'm suggesting to you that even among 3.000
9 employees, you would have had a pretty firm idea of how many of those
10 3.000 went to Croatia and returned from fighting in Croatia. Is that not
12 A. Well, I didn't have a precise picture of it all, but that's what
13 was common knowledge, at least on the shift I was working, and we worked
14 in three shifts. In the other two shifts, there were quite a number of
15 people whom I didn't know, so I don't know whether they went or not. But
16 the people working in my own shift, they would say, and judging on what
17 the other -- the men in the other two shifts say -- but as I say, I didn't
18 know anybody personally, so I can't say.
19 Q. How many men were on your shift?
20 A. About 90.
21 Q. And how many -- was it the same people constantly, was it, broadly
22 speaking, the same 90, not every day, but roughly speaking, it was the
23 same group of men continuing on the same shift, month in, month out, was
25 A. Yes, mostly. But you know how it was. There would be new workers
1 coming in. Some would retire, other young workers would come in.
2 Q. Yes, of course there would be changes. That's understood. How
3 many men from your shift went to fight in Croatia?
4 A. Three.
5 Q. Do you remember their names?
6 A. One was Jovic.
7 Q. First name?
8 A. I've forgotten.
9 Q. So one was Jovic. Another one?
10 A. Gajovic, not Jovic. Gajovic.
11 Q. Thank you. That's one. Another one?
12 A. Micic.
13 Q. And the third?
14 A. As far as I remember, Todorovic was this one man.
15 Q. And did they all return?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And how long were they away? Maybe not all the same period, but
18 how long were they away?
19 A. Not long. About 15 days, one month, and then they came back. But
20 they didn't go to work afterwards. They carried on with their military
21 activities in the units.
22 Q. And units of what? What were they -- in what units were they
24 A. In those military units. I don't know the names of those units
25 they were in.
1 Q. They weren't Chetniks, were they?
2 A. Well, I don't know what structures they were in. I really can't
3 answer that.
4 Q. But was there anything about your three work colleagues to
5 indicate that they were what you regarded as Chetniks?
6 A. Well, we thought along these lines: First of all, the people that
7 were prone to those radical moves, that they were the first to join the
8 fighting. Now, whether they were those or not, it was our understanding
9 that they were.
10 Q. So let me get this straight. Well, I'll put the question another
11 way. Apart from the fact that they -- the simple fact that they went to
12 Croatia to fight, do you know anything else about those work colleagues of
13 yours which indicated that they were what you regarded as Chetniks?
14 A. I don't, no.
15 Q. Have you ever heard of anybody called Jovo Civkovic -- Svicovic
16 might be a better attempt, Svicovic, Jovo Svicovic.
17 A. Well, the surname doesn't ring a bell as being a surname that we
18 had in the Pale municipality. Possibly he came from other parts and
19 settled there, but I don't know.
20 Q. Well, you don't know anybody of that name. That's what you're
21 saying; right? You don't, and never did?
22 A. No, I don't. Nobody with that surname.
23 Q. The -- because the -- the true position is this, isn't it,
24 Mr. Crncalo, that only a very tiny number of men went to Croatia at all to
25 fight from Pale, much less than the 50 that you've mentioned?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 A. As I said, the 50, that is my assessment. And I think I'm right
3 in saying that. Now, the fact that I cannot give you the name and surname
4 of each individual person, what can I do?
5 MR. STEWART:
6 Q. So you could be wrong about it. It could be, from what you know,
7 it could be that significantly fewer than 50 men ever went to fight in
8 Croatia from Pale; is that right?
9 A. I'll stand by what I've already said.
10 Q. Now, is it -- is it correct that shortly before the start of the
11 war, two of your cousins were arrested?
12 A. Yes, that is true.
13 Q. And they were arrested because they had been trading in illegal
14 weapons; that's right, isn't it?
15 A. The sale of weapons? I don't know about that.
16 Q. Did they live in the same village as you? Radacici, isn't it?
17 A. Yes. Radacici. But I didn't live there. I haven't lived there
18 since 1969. I hadn't lived there since then. I was born there. That's
19 true. But I never actually lived there.
20 Q. All right. Did your cousins live in Radacici, then, in 1992?
21 A. I did have some family there.
22 Q. Well, let's be clear. We're talking about these two cousins who
23 were arrested. Could you just give us their names, please, so there's no
24 ambiguity about it. The names, please, of the two cousins of yours who
25 were arrested.
1 A. Crncalo Nisad and Crncalo Emir, they were arrested at the bus
2 station in Pale and they were under custody for about three hours and then
4 Q. Were they -- did they live in Radacici, both of them?
5 A. In Pale, not in Radacici.
6 Q. They were brothers, were they, those two cousins?
7 A. The two of them were brothers. The Crncalo brothers, Nisad and
9 Q. And it's correct that their arrest was in connection with trading
10 in illegal weapons; is that right?
11 MR. HANNIS: Objection. I think it's been asked and answered that
12 he didn't know about that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, he has been asked. The answer to the question,
14 I'll just check.
15 MR. STEWART: Well, he answered it in the sense he said I don't
16 know about that, but occasionally, Your Honour, witnesses give answers
17 which justify a little pressing.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just --
19 Mr. Crncalo, do you know what your cousins were arrested for?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This morning, I mentioned the act of
21 arrest of the people in --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just asking you whether you know for what your
23 cousins were arrested.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do know.
25 JUDGE ORIE: What were they arrested for? They were suspected of
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were picked up off the street,
3 19 of them, including my two cousins, 19 young men. I know about that.
4 As for the others ...
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then were they suspected of anything?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they weren't suspected of
7 anything. Because they were Muslims, that's why they were taken to
8 prison, and we intervened, we went to the police station, and they were
9 released, two and a half or three hours later. And all 19 of them were
10 released, in actual fact, and they were never arrested again.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
12 MR. STEWART:
13 Q. Mr. Crncalo, that's not true. Your two arrested cousins were
14 taken to the central prison in Sarajevo, weren't they?
15 A. Well, I'd like to hear the names of the people.
16 Q. Do you have other cousins who were arrested in 1992 apart from the
17 two men, the two brothers that you've just named?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me try to see whether I still understand what it
19 is about. The witness said: That's why they were taken to prison, that
20 is, because they were Muslims. And your next question after Mr. Crncalo
21 had said that he had gone to the police station and intervened, that they
22 were released. The next question was: That's not true. Your two
23 arrested cousins were taken to the central prison in Sarajevo. What is
24 not true.
25 MR. STEWART: I beg your pardon, Your Honour. I had made an
1 unwarranted assumption there.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That they were at the police station rather than in
3 the prison.
4 MR. STEWART: Well, I might have made a different unwarranted
5 assumption, but rather than explore that I'll refine the question. Thank
6 you, Your Honour, for drawing my attention to that.
7 Q. Which prison do you say that your two arrested cousins whom you
8 have named were detained in, I think you said for about three hours, two
9 or three hours, you said?
10 A. The police station at Pale.
11 Q. So you say that they were never taken to prison in Sarajevo, do
13 A. Never.
14 Q. I put it to you that that's untrue, that they were arrested and
15 taken to the central prison in Sarajevo.
16 A. May I be allowed to comment?
17 Q. You may be allowed to answer the question, Mr. Crncalo. That's
18 your privilege.
19 A. The fact that you're asking me about this, I can say with
20 certainty that that -- that they were never taken to prison in Sarajevo.
21 The fact that they were in prison those two people, the two names that I
22 gave you, they were together with 17 others and they were detained in the
23 police station at Pale for two and a half to three hours.
24 Q. Then do you have any other cousins who were arrested in 1992?
25 A. I don't know. I do have cousins, but I don't know that they were
2 Q. When you were yourself arrested - you described that this
3 morning - you were in fact carrying a rifle at the time, weren't you?
4 MR. HANNIS: I haven't checked, Your Honour. I think that
5 misstates his testimony. He says the house was -- it was leaning against
6 the house.
7 MR. STEWART: I -- it's -- it's not misstating his testimony,
8 Your Honour. It's putting that to him. That's my case. It's not
9 misstating -- I'm not saying that he acknowledged that. I'm putting it to
10 him now.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You didn't say that you testified that, but you
12 said -- Mr. Crncalo, Mr. Stewart --
13 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I could see -- may I just
14 interject. I think it's the way the question came across. It's come
15 across on the transcript as: When you were yourself arrested, you
16 described that this morning you were in fact carrying a rifle at the time,
17 weren't you. I don't think that's quite what I said and I certainly
18 didn't mean to. It was: When you were arrested, as you described this
19 morning, I put it to you, Mr. Crncalo, that contrary to what you said this
20 morning, you were in fact carrying a rifle.
21 A. It was leaning up against the wall of the house. I didn't have it
22 in my hands.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, would it be convenient to leave it
25 leaning there overnight now?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. STEWART: Because I see the time.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I would even leave it there until tomorrow morning,
5 Mr. Crncalo, tomorrow we'll continue at 9.00. We'll be in another
6 courtroom. We'll be in Courtroom I. I instruct you not to speak with
7 anyone about the testimony you have given, and of course you're still
8 expected to give further testimony tomorrow. Don't speak with anyone
9 about it, and we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning, 9.00. We -- may
10 I ask Madam Usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.
11 Mr. Stewart, could you already inform us on whether you need the
12 original of that document to be kept or would you rather ...
13 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, we suggest it would be -- we said
14 we didn't think we needed it ourselves but we suggest that it would be
15 sensible for the original to be retained by the Court for the moment.
16 JUDGE ORIE: We do that for the moment.
17 MR. STEWART: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And would you please inform us then by tomorrow
19 whether you think you would further need it. Otherwise I'd like to give
20 it back to the witness.
21 MR. STEWART: Yes, certainly, Your Honour. Well, there's no
22 problem. If the witness has it in Court anyway if the question arises on
23 the original, it will be here.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then I guided Mr. Hannis that sometimes we went into
25 details of which it was not always perfectly clear to the Chamber what
1 these details would add to the presentation of then the Prosecutor's case.
2 I would like to give you a similar guidance, Mr. Stewart.
3 Mr. Hannis, any further matter?
4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, regarding scheduling, we only have one
5 more witness scheduled for these seven days, but that's a witness who is
6 not scheduled to arrive until Saturday, to be put on Monday. So what I'm
7 telling the Court is that when we finish Mr. Crncalo tomorrow, we have no
8 other witness for this week. For purpose of scheduling, I don't know if
9 the Court wants to finish with Mr. Crncalo and then finish or if we want
10 to talk about reading in some 92 bis summaries, going through the exhibit
11 list, talking about reviving Rule 92 bis reviews since our pilot project
12 on agreed facts is no longer in place, some of those housekeeping matters.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd like to get rid of a lot of matters that
14 are still pending, such as exhibits, like the Sanski Most exhibits are all
15 still there. Reading into the transcript, you indicated that already in
16 your schedule. On the other hand, the Chamber is a bit disappointed that
17 you underestimated your own ability to work quicker than scheduled. I'm
18 afraid I can't change that at this very moment, but it's certainly not
19 that we start in time that you would be surprised that we're running out
20 of witnesses. That saves only a couple of minutes. But we're not only
21 happy with this situation, Mr. Hannis.
22 MR. HANNIS: I understand, Your Honour. We will try to do a
23 better job. I think we're learning as we're going and we're -- and, for
24 example, we had one witness that there was no cross-examination on and I
25 have no quarrel with that. I think that was appropriate. But it's hard
1 to estimate when that may or may not happen.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you can't foresee everything,
3 but even if that cross-examination would have taken one or two hours, then
4 we still would have been, I would say, mainly in the same situation, but
5 then for two hours less, this week.
6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I say, Your Honour, it's -- we
7 have a great deal of sympathy with the Prosecution on this because it is
8 terribly difficult to estimate these things. It's just that we will all
9 do our professional best, but it seems a little bit hard, not much of an
10 incentive to us to operate efficiently when -- when we do operate
11 efficiently then we're subjected to criticism that time has been wasted
12 because -- that's actually what the Prosecution, and we hope we've done
13 the same. That's what the Prosecution have achieved with respect to.
14 JUDGE ORIE: At least you have additional time out of court to do
15 other things than to listen to witnesses.
16 MR. STEWART: Which is very valuable, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm aware of that. We will adjourn until
18 tomorrow morning, 9.00, Courtroom I.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49
20 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day of
21 September 2004, at 9.00 a.m.