Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7024

1 Monday, 18 October 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Good afternoon, after a break of one week, to everyone in and

10 around this courtroom. I'd like to start first with one remaining

11 procedural issue, that is, the --

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: -- that we have a number of exhibits where the OTP,

14 and I'm asking specific attention to the parties for the fact that these

15 are exhibits that were tendered under seal. I'm talking about the numbers

16 P200 to P203, that the OTP would have gotten back to the Defence on

17 Friday, the 15th of October, and that the Defence would then take a

18 position on admission by today. I'm not inviting you to express

19 yourselves on the contents of these exhibits, but has the Defence taken a

20 position? Has the Defence received information from the Prosecution?

21 MS. LOUKAS: Well, in fact, Your Honour, that was a matter I was

22 going to raise today, and fortunately, Your Honour has. In fact, we have

23 not received that information, that selection from the Prosecution at this

24 stage. I think that was meant to be by the 15th, as Your Honour has

25 indicated.

Page 7025

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Last Friday, yes.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. And our case manager, Ms. Cmeric, in fact sent

3 an e-mail in relation to that on the 16th, reminding the Prosecution of

4 that, and the deadline. But we haven't at this stage, prior to coming

5 into court, received a response in relation to that as yet.


7 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm not in the loop on this particular

8 dialogue between the Defence and the Prosecution. I will look into it

9 during the recess, and I will try to get back to you either today or

10 tomorrow morning.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the Chamber could be informed about -- well,

12 first of all, of course, the reason of the delay, because it has been --

13 the parties have been instructed according to this schedule, and at least

14 when we have resolved it, because I take it it's not very dramatic if it

15 would take one or two more days, but let's try to resolve the matter,

16 because there are a lot of other exhibits still to be taken positions upon

17 and we'd like to do that all in once.

18 Then, apart from this one procedural issue, are there other

19 procedural issues that have to be raised at this moment?

20 MS. LOUKAS: Just very quickly, Your Honour. In relation to the

21 next witness, I've indicated to Ms. Karagiannakis that I have an objection

22 in relation to some terminology that was used in the summary.


24 MS. LOUKAS: Ms. Karagiannakis has dealt with that, and I think

25 that issue is settled between the parties. That just leaves one remaining

Page 7026

1 aspect, because the term is actually used -- it's an overarching term

2 that's used in paragraph 20 of the statement, expelled, and in the

3 circumstances, I'd be objecting to the use of an overarching term of that

4 nature as opposed to the eliciting of evidence from the witness in

5 relation to the direct evidence that the witness can give of those

6 particular matters.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Karagiannakis.

8 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour. Our position is it should

9 remain in the statement. I intend to examine the witness on what he means

10 when he uses that term so that the Court and the Defence can understand

11 precisely the basis for his use of that term.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The words do not appear in the summary?

13 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: I have excluded them from the summary.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You have excluded them from the summary. Does that

15 mean that the summary I have on my desk is already the amended one? Where

16 did it appear, so that I can ...

17 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Your Honour, it appeared in the last sentence

18 of the first paragraph.



21 JUDGE ORIE: And it's replaced by what word now?

22 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: It would be -- delete that word and then end

23 to the end of the sentence "that left after the shelling."

24 JUDGE ORIE: So that means then -- yes. Okay. Then we hear that

25 from you because I take it that the summary to the extent is used as an

Page 7027

1 89(F) summary. Yes.

2 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: It also appears, Your Honour, at the -- in the

3 last paragraph of the summary.


5 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: And it reads: "And the expulsion of." Those

6 words are deleted, replaced with "and," and then after "Muslims" insert

7 the word "leaving."

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Will the Chamber receive an amend the copy of

9 the --

10 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

12 Ms. Loukas, having heard the response of the Prosecution where

13 Ms. Karagiannakis explained to us that she'll further explore the matter

14 of the wordings in the first line of paragraph 20, the Chamber sees at

15 this moment no reason to not to -- not to admit the statement into

16 evidence under 89(F), but we'll hear what the witness will testify about

17 it.

18 MS. LOUKAS: As Your Honour pleases.


20 MS. LOUKAS: That just leaves one final matter that I want to deal

21 with at this stage. Your Honours will recall that on the 4th of October,

22 the week before last, I did indicate that I would be proposing to file to

23 withdraw, in light of the inadequate time granted to the Defence and in

24 the circumstances, the question of a fair trial. I can indicate, of

25 course, Your Honour, we were dealing with witnesses that particular week,

Page 7028

1 and last week, as Your Honours are well aware, have been dealing with

2 92 bis, and I'll be dealing with the witnesses this week, but I propose to

3 be in a position to file the necessary documentation next week.

4 JUDGE ORIE: You said the necessary documentation. That is

5 documentation in relation to the --

6 MS. LOUKAS: Question of withdrawal, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Question of withdrawal. Of course, I couldn't

8 say that the Chamber is looking forward to see it. I would say rather the

9 opposite. But I do understand that it's not -- it's still in your mind

10 and that you'll file the request and what needs to support the request --

11 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: -- soon. Yes.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Just as Your Honour is not looking forward to

14 receiving it, I'm not looking forward to drafting it, but that's another

15 question.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that in that respect, the feelings are

17 concurrent.

18 MS. LOUKAS: One further matter, Your Honour. My niece is

19 currently staying with me. She is 15 years of age, and I wanted her to

20 come to court today, but apparently she is 15 years and eight months and

21 you have to be 16. So I have to make a formal application to Your Honours

22 so that my niece can come to court tomorrow.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would be for tomorrow?

24 MS. LOUKAS: I would think for tomorrow.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I am -- we'll have to consider that. Have you

Page 7029












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Page 7030

1 exchanged views with the Prosecution on what will be the subject of -- I

2 do understand that four months is not a lot of difference. I mean, 16, 15

3 years and 8 months, but, on the other hand, you'll understand what is our

4 only concern about that is not to expose persons under a certain age to --

5 especially when it comes to testimony which might be shocking.

6 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, indeed, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, I do not know exactly what evidence

8 we'll hear tomorrow. Of course, I do not know your relative as far as --

9 I mean, there's quite a variety of -- in this age. I take it, Ms. Loukas,

10 that, first of all, of course, you'll take some responsibility for

11 yourself knowing exactly what it is about. We'll give you a decision, but

12 I'd also like for you to consult with the Prosecution to the extent that

13 the risks are not such that we would later on regret that we allowed her

14 to be present.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, indeed, Your Honour. I understand that.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll give a decision.

17 MS. LOUKAS: But I'm sure we can come to some accommodation in

18 that regard.


20 MS. LOUKAS: One final matter, just briefly. In relation to the

21 witness that is to follow, the next witness, and of course the next

22 witness is --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Is a protect witness, yes.

24 MS. LOUKAS: -- is a protected witness. I'll indicate that I have

25 made some objections in relation to that particular statement, because it

Page 7031

1 is a rather long statement and has, in the Defence view, a rather --

2 certainly a large amount of extraneous material, we would submit, and I've

3 indicated some objections to the Prosecution. I think the Prosecution

4 lawyer handling that particular witness is Mr. Margetts, and I just wanted

5 to place that on the record as well. Because it is a very long statement,

6 almost in the nature of a novella, and in the circumstances, Your Honour,

7 I think requires some streamlining. And I just want to place that on the

8 record that I've made that objection, and I think it's being considered at

9 this time by the Prosecution.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we'll see then what remains finally.

11 Yes, having dealt with these procedural issues, on the list,

12 Ms. Karagiannakis, I do not find your name as the one who would examine

13 the next witness, but you will.

14 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: I will be doing so.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And you're ready to start it.


17 JUDGE ORIE: No protective measures, then. Madam Usher, would you

18 please escort the witness into the courtroom.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Vatric.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

22 JUDGE ORIE: The Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to

23 make a solemn declaration prior to giving evidence in this court. The

24 text of this solemn declaration is now handed out to you by Madam Usher.

25 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.

Page 7032

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vatric, you'll first be examined by

6 Ms. Karagiannakis, counsel for the Prosecution.

7 You may proceed, Ms. Karagiannakis.

8 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Could the witness please be shown his statement dated 21 January

10 1998.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that statement would have Exhibit

12 number?

13 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P322.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Examined by Ms. Karagiannakis:

18 Q. Mr. Vatric, do you recognise this statement as a statement that

19 you have given previously to representatives of the ICTY?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Did you have a chance to review this statement before today's

22 court proceedings?

23 A. Yes, I have.

24 Q. Could you please look at paragraph 19 of the statement. In that

25 paragraph, in the fourth full sentence, reference is made to the Hotel

Page 7033

1 Trnovo. Should that reference read "Hotel Treskavica"?

2 A. Yes, by all means. There is no such thing as a Hotel Trnovo.

3 It's Hotel Treskavica.

4 Q. Now with that correction, are you satisfied that this statement is

5 correct and accurate?

6 A. I certainly agree that it is truthful.

7 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Now, Your Honours, I propose to read a summary

8 of the statement before asking the witness any more questions.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Vatric, Ms. Karagiannakis will read a

10 summary of your statement because we might not go through all the details

11 of your statement and focus on specific parts of it, but in order for the

12 public to know what your statement is about, she'll read the summary.

13 Please proceed, Ms. Karagiannakis.

14 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: From February 1991, the witness was a member

15 of the Executive Board of Trnovo. This body constituted the municipal

16 government. He provides evidence about the political situation and

17 personalities in the municipality during 1991 and 1992, including the SDS

18 municipal leaders: Radivoje Draskovic and Glisa Simanic. The witness

19 testifies as to the build-up to and subsequent shelling and takeover of

20 Trnovo and its aftermath, including the number of casualties and the

21 destination and numbers of the Muslim population that left after the

22 shelling.

23 All of the officials bodies of the municipality had Serb bodies

24 elected as shadow organisations. A Serb MUP was created and located in

25 the cultural centre, over which the Serb flag was raised. Three

Page 7034

1 checkpoints were established in Trnovo in March 1992. The White Eagles

2 were manning a checkpoint in the first half of April 1992. They stopped

3 him and another Muslim and, after checking their identity cards, they were

4 not allowed to go to Trnovo town after that.

5 On the 1st of May, 1992, the witness returned to Trnovo by an

6 alternative route and found that the municipal organisation had been

7 split; a coordination body between Muslims and Serbs had been established;

8 and Serbs were wearing uniforms and trenches were being dug around the

9 town.

10 On 24 May 1992, a municipal War Presidency was formed and the

11 Serbs were invited to join; however, they declined to do so and withdrew

12 from all public institutions. Seven days before the attack on Trnovo,

13 Serbs started moving around the town and tanks appeared. The day before

14 the attack Serbs started leaving the town, and the witness's Serb

15 secretary warned him to take care of himself because "something very

16 serious is about to happen."

17 The town was shelled the next day, 31 May 1992, resulting in five

18 deaths, the capture and disappearance of 14 people, and approximately two

19 and a half thousand Muslims leaving to various locations. The witness was

20 responsible for the accommodation of the Muslims that left. Upon his

21 return to Trnovo town, he observed that many houses had been burned or

22 damaged and the mosque has been pulled down.

23 Q. Mr. Vatric, can you tell the Court what position you held in the

24 municipality of Trnovo during 1991 and 1992.

25 A. I was secretary of the secretariat for economic and financial

Page 7035












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Page 7036

1 matters, as well as general social affairs. So this was a very

2 comprehensive secretariat. At the same time, I was a member of the

3 Executive Council of the municipality from 1991 onwards and after the war

4 too, of course.

5 Q. What's the role of the Executive Board of the municipality?

6 A. The Executive Board of the municipality of Trnovo is practically

7 the executive that is then answerable to the Assembly of Trnovo.

8 Q. What was the population of Trnovo municipality, approximately, in

9 1991?

10 A. The municipality of Trnovo had a population of about 7.000 on an

11 area of 450 square kilometres. So it was very sparsely populated.

12 Q. Can you tell the Court the ethnic breakdown of that population?

13 A. 70 per cent of the population was Bosniak Muslim, and 30 per cent

14 were Serbs. There were very few Croats, hardly any, perhaps one or two

15 per cent, but certainly not more than that.

16 Q. Can you tell us what the population of Trnovo town was in 1991?

17 A. The town of Trnovo is a very small town, very small. The

18 population was about 2.000 to 2.500, at maximum. That is the town itself.

19 And around Trnovo are villages that are not really villages per se but

20 part of the town, but all things considered, the population would not

21 exceed 2.000.

22 Q. And what was the ethnic breakdown of the population of Trnovo

23 town?

24 A. I think that Trnovo itself had a population that was about 50 or

25 55 per cent Bosniak Muslim. The rest were Serbs.

Page 7037

1 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Could the witness please be shown the map

2 Sarajevo within BiH, please.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P323.

4 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: And could the map, please, be placed on the

5 ELMO so that the witness can mark it.

6 Q. Can you briefly explain Trnovo's position in respect of the

7 Sarajevo area.

8 A. Trnovo lies to the south-east of Sarajevo. It is one -- it used

9 to be one of the ten municipalities of Sarajevo before the war. As I

10 said, it stretches over an area of 450 square kilometres to the south-east

11 of Sarajevo. And it is across the communication line to Foca, from

12 Sarajevo, and through to the eastern Herzegovinian access to sea and up to

13 the north-east, to Visegrad, and then, of course, to the south-west, to

14 Montenegro. So it is the south-eastern part of Sarajevo.

15 Q. Can you describe to the Court the main roads that provide access

16 to the sea from Sarajevo.

17 A. Yes. There are two main roads linking Sarajevo with the sea.

18 This is the M-17, Sarajevo-Konjic-Mostar-Ploce, and a second road going

19 from Sarajevo across Trnovo and Foca and on to Gacko, Bileca until

20 Dubrovnik. These were the two main roads in the direction of the sea.

21 Q. Could you please take a pen and just trace the road through Konjic

22 and Mostar to the sea and mark that with the number 1. And then trace the

23 other road you described on the map and mark that with the number 2.

24 A. The road number 1 and this is the road number 2.

25 Q. Okay. Thank you very much. Now, does road number 2 actually pass

Page 7038

1 through the -- through Trnovo town itself?

2 A. Yes, it does. It passes through the centre of Trnovo.

3 Q. Okay. Thank you. The map can be put away.

4 Were there any JNA barracks in Trnovo prior to the war?

5 A. No, not in the area of Trnovo municipality. There were no JNA

6 barracks. There were just two facilities of a different character on the

7 slopes of the Jahorina mountain, but they were not the typical military

8 facilities.

9 Q. Where were the nearest JNA barracks to Trnovo municipality before

10 the start of the war?

11 A. The closest barracks were Kalinovik, Hadzici and Lukavica. I

12 think those were the closest barracks.

13 Q. Did the JNA barracks at Kalinovik have artillery?

14 A. Well, of course. These were the barracks of the Yugoslav People's

15 Army that had long been in existence.

16 Q. Just going back to the issue of the two roads that provide access

17 to the sea from Sarajevo. You told us about a road going through Konjic

18 and Mostar. Now, during 1992, which forces controlled the areas through

19 which that road, which is marked as number 1, controlled it?

20 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that question, I

21 think it probably needs a little bit more delineation as to time in 1992

22 we're talking about.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Karagiannakis.


25 Q. From April 1992, which forces controlled that road to the sea

Page 7039

1 going through Konjic and Mostar?

2 A. In April 1992, Ilidza and Hadzici were under the control of the

3 Serb forces. So this particular road had been severed, leaving from

4 Sarajevo. Now, when we talk about the roads to the sea, I wouldn't know

5 which forces held which areas, but I think that near Mostar, there was one

6 section of the road that wasn't passable, that was actually occupied. But

7 in Ilidza and Hadzici, the road had been blocked.

8 Q. And which forces controlled the municipalities of Konjic and

9 Mostar at that time? If you know.

10 A. Konjic was under the control of the Army of Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina. That was around April.

12 Q. And Mostar?

13 A. I wouldn't know about Mostar. I wasn't in Mostar at the time.

14 But there were forces of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the HVO, and

15 of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. But I wouldn't really

16 know which sections of the road belonged to which forces, because I was

17 not there at the time.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now I just want to move on to a number of

19 events that you describe in your statement that occurred before the 31st

20 of May. In paragraph -- I'll ask you to look at paragraph 8 of your

21 statement. There you say that during 1991, you noticed changes taking

22 place, and I quote: "I noticed it first through the actions of these two

23 colleagues," and there you're referring to Mr. Adzic and Mr. Boskovic.

24 Could you tell the Court what changes you're referring to there?

25 A. These were mostly changes at the workplace. These were two

Page 7040

1 colleagues of ours working together with us with the Executive Board.

2 They were young people who did their job in a very proper way prior to the

3 war, in a way that was in no way different from our working style. At the

4 beginning of 1991, you could already feel them being distanced in terms of

5 the decision-making process, the process of -- the decision taking wasn't

6 as easy as before. They did not state their positions very clearly as

7 before. So you couldn't really say what it was, tangibly, that was

8 different with the two colleagues, but you could feel the difference in

9 their conduct at the meetings, where they would tend to postpone certain

10 matters for some later stage. We noticed perhaps most of all that they

11 were in a way losing their autonomy in what they were doing.

12 Q. You said there they would tend to postpone certain matters for

13 some later stage. What sort of matters are you talking about there?

14 A. Generally, the Executive Board discussed a number of issues of the

15 local character pertaining to the municipality, utilities, schooling, and

16 so on. Since Trnovo was a local community, it did not have its own

17 sources, but depended on the funds from Sarajevo. That is why we mainly

18 dealt with local issues, road-building, infrastructure, and so on. These

19 were issues that could not be considered major issues for such a small

20 community and that would not really lead to any great changes in the

21 community. So issues of local infrastructure, education, companies active

22 in the area, whereas other matters were mostly related to the town of

23 Sarajevo.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know which party these two people belonged

25 to?

Page 7041












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Page 7042

1 A. They were nominated on behalf of the SDS, so they were members of

2 the SDS and were designated by the party as the candidates.

3 Q. Thank you. Now, can you please have a look at paragraph 10 of

4 your statement. You say there in the first line: "Further developments

5 were a reflection of the developments in Sarajevo and East Bosnia rather

6 than the situation in Trnovo itself." Could you please explain what you

7 mean by that statement.

8 A. Trnovo was a small town, a community where people knew each other.

9 There were no conflicts locally. And the events of the time were actually

10 a reflection of what was going on at the higher level in Sarajevo, which

11 was the political centre of the country, where the political conflicts

12 could be seen aired on the TV and in the mass media, which of course had

13 an impact on Trnovo. And already in the first half of 1992, in Eastern

14 Bosnia, there were conflicts in place. People started moving towards

15 Central Bosnia, and the population leaving Foca and other places over

16 there passed through Trnovo. And that's what I meant by saying this. Of

17 course, inevitably, this disrupted the relations in Trnovo.

18 Q. What was the -- insofar as you know, what was the population

19 leaving Foca and passing through Trnovo, what ethnicity was that

20 population?

21 A. I wouldn't know their numbers, but a lot of people passed through

22 Trnovo in 1992. There were large columns of people, of Muslims, from

23 Eastern Bosnia.

24 Q. Now, could you have a look at paragraph 11. There you say that

25 you heard about the Crisis Staff. When and how did you hear about the

Page 7043

1 establishment of the SDS Crisis Staff?

2 A. I personally did not know when the Crisis Staff - that is, the SDS

3 Assembly - was established. I wasn't politically active in either of the

4 parties, so I wasn't a member of the forum of political parties. But

5 there were some indications pointing to the fact that such institutions

6 had been established in Trnovo as well. This typical period, winter from

7 2001 to 2002, when certain staffs and assemblies were established, it's

8 very difficult for me to specify the dates. But the end of 1991 up to the

9 spring of 1992, this became apparent due to the different signs that were

10 placed on the institutions, people claiming to be members of different

11 institutions. All the issues that I could notice while discharging my

12 regular duties at the municipality.

13 Q. How did you first hear about the creation of the SDS Crisis Staff?

14 A. I learnt it from colleagues and I could see some places where

15 flags were hoisted where there were no flags before, next to the Hotel

16 Treskavica, culture centre, and other places where there were Serb

17 companies. So I did not know precisely that the Assembly had been

18 established, but I could notice it by these new manifestations and of

19 course from conversations with my colleagues.

20 Q. Now, in your statement you said two things. You said that you

21 heard about the creation of an SDS Crisis Staff and then you heard about a

22 Serb assembly. Now, I'm asking you now about the SDS Crisis Staff just to

23 make it clear.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that, what's

25 actually stated at paragraph 11 is: "I had no personal knowledge of the

Page 7044

1 establishment of the SDS Crisis Staff. I had heard about it, but my only

2 knowledge was hearsay and I do not feel competent to comment on these

3 matters. I did not attend meetings where subjects like this were

4 discussed." So the paraphrasing that Ms. Karagiannakis gave that

5 particular aspect needs some correction.

6 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: I'm happy to quote the precise passage to the

7 witness.


9 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: -- Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.


12 Q. Have a look at paragraph 11 and have a look at the first and

13 second sentences of that paragraph. I'm going to read them out to

14 you: "I had no personal knowledge of the establishment of the SDS Crisis

15 Staff. I had heard about it," and then the sentence continues. Would you

16 just tell the Court when and how you heard about it.

17 A. In any case, I wasn't officially informed about the establishment

18 of such a body, although I was an official of the municipality, and it

19 would have been quite normal for me to be informed officially of it in

20 normal times. The colleagues I heard this from were people who knew of

21 this because they were members of other political parties and were in

22 communication with these people. Mehmed Mulaosmanovic was the president

23 of the municipality of Trnovo. He had this information, and I can tell

24 you that I heard it from him, but I could not, of course, say who the

25 others were that I also heard it from. But he was one of them, and he was

Page 7045

1 an official there.

2 Q. And do you remember when you heard it from Mr. Mulaosmanovic?

3 A. As I've said, it's very difficult to date this. I really have to

4 speak of the period of the end of 1991 and the beginning of 1992. I

5 cannot be certain in any way about the dates, and that's why I would like

6 to keep it at just dating it to the period.

7 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Okay. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Karagiannakis, I'm a bit confused. Perhaps you

9 could clarify that for me. In paragraph 11 of the statement, a

10 distinction is made between the SDS Crisis Staff and -- well, at least, I

11 don't know whether it's a distinction. SDS Crisis Staff and Serb

12 Assembly, which seems to be two different bodies. Whereas in the answer

13 of the witness on page 17, line 2, it reads: "I personally did not know

14 when the Crisis Staff, that is, the SDS Assembly, was established." Could

15 you clarify whether we are talking about one or about two bodies.

16 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour. I'm now going to move on to

17 the issue of the Serb Assembly. There was some confusion in I think what

18 the witness understood and said. That's why I asked him specifically

19 about the Crisis Staff in the last set of questions, and now I'll ask him

20 about the Serb Assembly and he'll be able to hopefully clarify it for the

21 Court.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps you could confront him with his previous

23 answer where he seems to put them together. It's page 17, line 2, at the

24 end.

25 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: I'm afraid, Your Honour, I don't have that --

Page 7046

1 JUDGE ORIE: I'll read it for you. Perhaps I could ask a

2 clarification.

3 Mr. Vatric, you said in your testimony a couple of minutes

4 ago: "I personally did not know when the Crisis Staff, that is, the SDS

5 Assembly, was established."

6 From your written statement, it appears that -- at least, that's

7 how I read it - that the Crisis Staff is not exactly the same as the SDS

8 Assembly. Could you please clarify whether you consider them to be two

9 different bodies or one body, and to explain to us what, if different

10 bodies, what the one was and what the other was.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think these are two distinct

12 bodies, although I could not really speak about their jurisdictions, what

13 their purview was. But of course, the Assembly was supposed to be the

14 official representative body of the municipality of Trnovo that was

15 supposed to assume all the tasks that the legally elected assembly

16 discharged. Whereas the Crisis Staff, according to what I inferred from

17 what I knew, because I could not really firsthand have any experience of

18 it, was an organ formed by the SDS to operate at the time. So these

19 should be two distinct bodies.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Karagiannakis.


22 Q. At paragraph 11 of your statement, you say, and I'll read out the

23 sentence to you: "I heard that a Serb Assembly had been officially

24 elected, but I did not attend any of its meetings."

25 Could you please tell the Court how and when you heard about the

Page 7047












12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond













Page 7048

1 election of a Serb Assembly.

2 A. Again, I heard this from my colleagues in the municipality, having

3 been a member of the Executive Board, and my colleagues having been

4 members of the different political parties, I learnt it from conversations

5 with them. Again, I cannot say whether it was the beginning of 1992 or

6 the end of 1991, but it was wintertime, and I was told that a second

7 assembly had been established, assembly of Trnovo, that was supposed to

8 continue functioning. Of course, I did not really think about it

9 afterwards, because I just thought it was a regular body.

10 Q. Then you go on to say in paragraph 11: "In 1992, the Hotel

11 Treskavica was the place where they had their official meetings."

12 Now, could you please tell the Court who or what you mean when you

13 say "they" in that sentence.

14 A. Of course. They were the Serbian Democratic Party that assumed

15 the political role, formed its parallel organs. It was seated in the area

16 of Hotel Treskavica in Trnovo and that is why their meetings were mostly

17 held in Hotel Treskavica.

18 Q. Did you see the SDS members gathering for those meetings?

19 A. I saw a number of times the SDS people leaving to Hotel

20 Treskavica. I was, however, never there. I don't know whether they held

21 their meetings there, or what they were doing there. I just saw them

22 going to one of the rooms in Hotel Treskavica.

23 Q. And when was the first time you saw them going there?

24 A. I couldn't say when it was that I first saw them there, because it

25 is true that Serbs did meet in Hotel Treskavica. And I saw politicians

Page 7049

1 meeting there. I saw them in 1991 and in 1992. I cannot, though, give

2 you a specific date. But it was really often that I would see these

3 people there.

4 Q. Right at the end of that paragraph, you say, and I quote: "I know

5 that one day the Serb MUP was created and located in the culture centre.

6 They raised the Serb flag over the building."

7 Now, when did you see -- sorry. How do you know that the Serb MUP

8 was created and located in the culture centre?

9 A. It was easy to come by that information because there were people

10 of Serb nationality working in MUP who separated themselves and were

11 stationed at the cultural centre that was just being built. The building

12 works were nearing the end there. And they hoisted their flag there,

13 which meant that they were forming a new institution.

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the end part of

15 the answer.

16 A. But I apologise, because of course 15 years have elapsed, and that

17 is quite a long period of time.


19 Q. Mr. Vatric, I hear and see on my screen that the interpreter could

20 not hear the last part of your answer to that question. Could you please

21 repeat it. And perhaps if you could lean a little bit more closer to the

22 microphones.

23 A. I know that people of Serb ethnicity, police officers, used to

24 work at the Trnovo police station. They left the Trnovo police station

25 and then were stationed at the cultural centre, which was supposed to be

Page 7050

1 the general community centre. They hoisted their flag there and

2 established a new institution, and this was common knowledge. The only

3 thing I cannot tell you is the specific date. But I believe it was in

4 March.

5 Q. All right. Now, you say that they raised a Serb flag over the

6 building. Can you describe what that flag looked like.

7 A. This was the SDS flag, with the four S's in the middle.

8 Q. Now, could you please -- I refer you now to paragraph 13 of your

9 statement. Just a general question in relation to this paragraph and then

10 a more specific one. Now, you mentioned that Radivoje Draskovic, and in

11 paragraph 9 of your statement you say that Draskovic had been the former

12 president of the Executive Board before the elections. And then full

13 stop: "At that time I believe he was the president of the Municipal Board

14 of the SDS." Do you know of any other SDS positions that Mr. Draskovic

15 held?

16 A. After the multi-party elections in 1990, Mr. Draskovic left the

17 position of the president of the Executive Board of Trnovo. In 1992, he

18 became the president of the SDS party in Trnovo, but I know of -- I do not

19 know of any other function that he discharged except for this one.

20 Q. You also mentioned in paragraph 13 Glisa Simovic. What party did

21 he belong to?

22 A. Glisa Simanic was also a member of the League of Communists before

23 these events occurred, and then he did join the ranks of the SDS and

24 pursued the SDS policy. I do not know whether he was formally a member,

25 but he was the -- later on also there on behalf of MUP in Sarajevo.

Page 7051

1 Q. All right. Now, the last line of paragraph 13 you say: "Glisa

2 Simanic was also a former communist." You've explained that to us. And

3 then you go on to say: "And had a high position in the municipality of

4 Trnovo for many years."

5 Could you tell the Court what high position in the municipality he

6 had?

7 A. Since he spent a number of years in Trnovo and in communist times,

8 the officials would merely change positions from MUP, then on to the

9 Committee of the League of Communists, so he basically held all the

10 leading, different leading positions in the municipality of Trnovo. Later

11 on, he was in the town MUP and the republican MUP. I don't know which

12 positions he held, but these were mainly leadership positions.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, in paragraphs -- you don't have to look at

14 them, but I'm just summarising. Paragraphs 12 and 15, you discover --

15 sorry, you discuss the establishment of barricades and checkpoints in

16 March. Now, were there any negotiations that you know about that related

17 to the topic of barricades or checkpoints in the municipality?

18 A. The month of March was the month of barricades in Sarajevo and in

19 all the Sarajevo municipalities, including Trnovo. There were

20 checkpoints, barricades, in a number of places. There was a series of

21 negotiations run by the president of municipality, Mr. Mulaosmanovic, with

22 representatives of the Serbian Democratic Party. I wasn't personally

23 involved in the negotiations.

24 Q. Which members of the Serbian Democratic Party negotiated with

25 Mr. Mulaosmanovic about barricades and checkpoints?

Page 7052

1 A. It was Mr. Draskovic, as president of the SDS, for the most part,

2 and Mr. Simanic. But I don't know in which capacity he was there at that

3 meeting.

4 MS. LOUKAS: I just want to leave a marker there, Your Honour,

5 just in relation to the question of which members of the party negotiated

6 there. When the witness has already given an answer that: "I wasn't

7 involved in the negotiations." The following question should probably

8 have a proviso to your knowledge in view of the previous answer. But I'm

9 putting a marker there. Obviously the question has been answered now. But

10 I think it's important the questions are confined to the witness's

11 specific, direct knowledge of matters, where they can be, and particularly

12 where he said: "I have no direct involvement." Perhaps a little bit more

13 care there.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We took notice of your marker, Ms. Loukas.


16 Q. How do you know that Mr. Draskovic and Mr. Simanic engaged in

17 negotiations with Mr. Mulaosmanovic?

18 A. Mr. Mulaosmanovic's office was right next door to my office in the

19 municipality, so I was there, so I knew about it, and I heard about it

20 from the president of the municipality. It was easy to know about that.

21 Q. And what happened as a result of these negotiations, to your

22 knowledge?

23 A. After these negotiations -- well, I don't know whether these

24 negotiations contributed to this, but anyway, the barricades were removed

25 throughout Trnovo.

Page 7053

1 Q. Did barricades, checkpoints, subsequently reappear at any stage in

2 Trnovo?

3 A. In the month of April, I could not come to Trnovo. I lived in

4 Hrasnica. So I had to travel through Vojkovici and other neighbourhoods.

5 So I simply couldn't make it to Trnovo. A month later I came to Trnovo

6 via Igman. Of course in the area of Treskavica, I came across a

7 checkpoint, a barricade, a roadblock, where I was asked to show an ID and

8 then they let me pass because they knew what my job was. And then again I

9 saw roadblocks in Trnovo. As for the road between Sarajevo and Trnovo, I

10 knew about that because before, even on the 2nd of April I think, I think

11 it was the 1st or 2nd of April, that was the last time when I was

12 cautioned about this, that we could no longer go to Trnovo that way. So

13 this is March and then April and then the third time I went back to Trnovo

14 was in May.

15 Q. You say you were asked to show -- I'm trying to read your answer

16 to you and ask for clarification. "A month later I came back to Trnovo

17 via Igman. In the area of Treskavica, I came across a barricade,

18 checkpoint, roadblocks, where I was asked to show ID and then they let me

19 pass." Now, who was manning that roadblock or checkpoint or barricade?

20 A. My briefest possible answer would be that these were

21 paramilitaries, members of paramilitary formations, mostly ethnic Serbs.

22 I could not call them a military formation. They wore uniforms that

23 belonged to reservists of the former Yugoslav People's Army and they also

24 wore civilian clothes. So as a person who worked in the system of

25 government, I can say that for me they were paramilitaries.

Page 7054

1 Q. And when you went back to Trnovo town itself in May did you see

2 any barricades in Trnovo town itself?

3 A. Not in the town of Trnovo itself. There weren't any barricades.

4 It was my impression, and that is the way it was, in fact, that by then,

5 Trnovo was already divided along ethnic lines. In the area of the

6 municipality and in the area where there were Bosniaks, there were hardly

7 any Serbs left, and the other way around. So barricades were no longer

8 needed, as Trnovo had already been divided.

9 Q. Now, you mentioned division. Could you look at paragraph 17 of

10 your statement. I think it's the fourth sentence you said: "When I

11 returned to Trnovo, I found all the organisations split into separate

12 organisations." And later on you say Trnovo was divided. Could you

13 explain what you mean by organisations split into separate organisations.

14 A. Of course I can explain. It's very simple. State institutions.

15 There was the municipality that did not function, and the municipality

16 building was closed down. Then the defence department that was within the

17 municipality. It no longer had any ethnic Serbs there. Then the MUP, the

18 security station. It was already divided into two MUPs. There was only

19 one coordinating body that was operating, and that was a peace council

20 established by the citizens. They were debating things and probably

21 trying to keep the peace, if possible.

22 However, there were no other state organisations or social

23 organisations in Trnovo. There was also the health centre. It was an

24 institution of a kind too. But I could not say whether it was divided or

25 not, because it involved professionals, people who did their actual work.

Page 7055

1 Q. You said in your answer that there was only one coordination body

2 that was operating and that was a peace council established by the

3 citizens. Were any of the elected representatives of the SDS or the SDA

4 on that peace council?

5 A. I don't know how it was constituted, how it was established,

6 whether it was political parties that had put up their candidates for it.

7 But if I look at the people who were actually on the council, I could not

8 say whether it was the political parties who established this or not.

9 Knowing Mr. Boro Popovic, Mr. Mulaomerovic, they were not really political

10 party oriented people and they were on this council. I think that these

11 were individuals who were trying to maintain good neighbourly relations,

12 or rather, peace in Trnovo.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, could you please look at paragraph 19 of your

14 statement. You say: "The seven days before the attack I was in Trnovo.

15 There were Serb military formations walking around Trnovo." Can you tell

16 us whether these formation -- whether these formations were armed or not?

17 A. I can. These were formations that wore uniforms of the reserve

18 force of the army of Yugoslavia. They had insignia which were no longer

19 insignia of the Yugoslav army. Some of them were armed too, of course. I

20 slept in Trnovo then, so during those eight days, I was in Trnovo round

21 the clock. During the night, I would often hear gunfire. During the day,

22 one could see people moving about in Trnovo, and one could realise that

23 something was going on. All of it gave the feeling of something military

24 that was going on, and that turned out to be true later on.

25 Q. Now, you mentioned that you saw insignia. Are you able to

Page 7056

1 describe what that insignia was?

2 A. Well, perhaps I should call it the times of folklore in Sarajevo

3 and Trnovo. From nationalist insignia to insignia of the Yugoslav

4 People's Army. I don't know now. I mean, I can't tell anything more

5 specific now, but there was the Serb flag, no longer the flag of the

6 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So this meant that it was mono-ethnic.

7 At checkpoints, I often saw insignia that belonged to the war before that,

8 that is to say, the Sajkaca caps, the cockades, et cetera.

9 Q. Further on in that part of your statement, you say: "Tanks

10 appeared in front of..." what you corrected to read as "Hotel

11 Treskavica." Do you know who those tanks belonged to?

12 A. It's a well-known fact who had the tanks: The Yugoslav People's

13 Army. They left them behind and they made them available to the forces in

14 Trnovo which - I emphasise this once again - were, in my opinion,

15 paramilitaries. They were not within the Yugoslav People's Army. I did

16 my military service in the Yugoslav People's Army myself, and the army

17 never resorted to that. So these were tanks and equipment that remained

18 in the area and that was there in front of the Hotel Treskavica.

19 Q. Thank you. Further on in that paragraph, you say that during that

20 period, and I quote you: "I then saw that Serb people were leaving the

21 town." Can you please tell us when you saw that.

22 A. It was on a Friday, the end of May, when working hours were over.

23 Everybody saw this commotion around town and we saw the Serb population

24 leaving. However, to tell you the truth, this was not a special type of

25 signal to me at the time, because people were moving about all the time

Page 7057

1 anyway. However, later on this proved to be the case on Saturday as well.

2 So by the time the attack on Trnovo took place, practically the entire

3 Serb population had left Trnovo and they were taken to Treskavica and

4 Tosici, and after that Trnovo was shelled.

5 Q. Do you know what the ethnic make-up of the village of Tosici is?

6 A. Mono-ethnic. Only two or three Bosniak houses, I think. So the

7 population were Serb.

8 Q. You then report a conversation you had, and I'll just read that

9 out to you: "A Serb woman who was a secretary at our office said to me as

10 she left that day: Take care of yourself, boss, something very serious is

11 about to happen."

12 Can you tell the Court when she said that to you and what you did

13 in response.

14 A. To be quite sincere, it wasn't really a conversation; it was a

15 single sentence that I happened to recall later and to realise what it

16 actually meant. At any rate, everything that happened in Trnovo during

17 those few days probably led to that, the fact that this sentence was

18 something that I was told, and it probably conveyed a kind of message

19 because on the second or on the third day, Trnovo was actually shelled.

20 Q. Now, the last line of that paragraph is that the town of -- the

21 town was shelled that day, the 31st of May, 1992. Did you actually --

22 were you actually in the town on that day?

23 A. No. No, I was not in town on that day.

24 Q. So how do you know the town was shelled that day?

25 A. Well, I was in the area of municipality of Trnovo. Trnovo is the

Page 7058

1 very centre of the municipality, and everybody knows what's going on in

2 town. My colleagues were in town, and they were there throughout. So on

3 Friday afternoon, I left town. I went to see my family, or rather, one of

4 my children, and the next day the town was attacked. Of course, when I

5 heard about this, I set out for Trnovo straight away and I saw this with

6 my very own eyes, because the shelling continued. It wasn't stopped at

7 that moment.

8 Q. Were you able to see where the shelling was originating from?

9 A. Of course. It wasn't hard to see. Shells were coming from the

10 area of Rogoj and the Hotel Treskavica. So Rogoj would be the right way

11 of putting it. This is a pass between Kalinovik and Trnovo, a mountain

12 pass.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, in paragraph 20, you state: "After the

14 attack on the 31st of May, the Muslim population was expelled from

15 Trnovo." Why do you say that the population was expelled?

16 A. I don't think there is any other expression in the Bosnian

17 language but to say that you were expelled if somebody made you leave by

18 force.

19 Q. Then you go on to say in paragraph 20 that your duty was to --

20 immediate duty was to take care of these people. Then you mention the

21 numbers of 1.000 to 1.500 Bosniaks, and then a further thousand people who

22 had been previously displaced from Foca. Can you tell the Court

23 approximately what percentage of those people were women, and children,

24 and elderly people?

25 A. These were primarily families that lived in the town of Trnovo, so

Page 7059

1 there were women and children and elderly people there; adults too, of

2 course. It would be hard for me to give any percentages now, because at

3 that time there were no splits among the population. Everybody had to

4 leave Trnovo under the shells and under the fire. So practically no one

5 stayed behind in Trnovo. Everybody left. I did not go into the

6 percentages even at that time, how many women, how many children, although

7 it is always possible to deduce that figure from the relative figures that

8 exist.

9 Q. Now, the last part of paragraph 20, I'll quote this. You

10 say: "On the first day of the war, five citizens of Trnovo were killed by

11 the shelling and 14 were captured. We do not know what happened to any of

12 those 14 who have never been seen again."

13 Now, how did you come to know about these events?

14 A. I was in the village of Trebecaj for the most part. That is two

15 kilometres away from the centre of Trnovo. So it wasn't hard to hear

16 about all of this from the people who were leaving Trnovo, about who got

17 killed, where shells fell, et cetera. I believe, though, that there are

18 some accurate records as well. Perhaps people who worked for the health

19 services or people who were engaged in these efforts later. I know about

20 these 14 people because there was an employee of the municipality of

21 Trnovo among them, and he lived in the neighbourhood where the Treskavica

22 Hotel was. I know that he was taken away because his wife got out the

23 following day and she told me about it.

24 Q. What was his ethnicity?

25 A. He was a Muslim, a Bosniak.

Page 7060

1 Q. And insofar as you knew or --

2 A. [Indiscernible]

3 Q. Now, insofar as you knew or were told by the refugees, what was

4 the ethnicity of the people that were killed and the five people that were

5 killed and the 14 people that were captured?

6 A. They were Bosniaks, of course. It was the Bosniak population that

7 was leaving Trnovo.

8 Q. What was the name of the employee of the municipality who was

9 among the 14 people?

10 A. Munib Velic was his name. He was a land surveyor.

11 Q. Thank you very much.

12 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: That concludes my examination.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, before I give you an opportunity to

14 cross-examine the witness, I would ask one question to the witness at this

15 moment.

16 When asked why you used the word that Muslims were expelled, you

17 explained that they had to leave by force. Could you explain a little bit

18 more what do you mean by that, how this actually took place. What force

19 was exercised? How precisely that went on.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the force came from artillery

21 weapons. The town was shelled. The unprotected civilian population in

22 Trnovo was shelled, and this went on incessantly. That's what my

23 colleague Mr. Durmo told me when he got out of Trnovo. There was this

24 physical attack against Trnovo. And there was no other way of protecting

25 the population but getting them out to the neighbouring villages. That's

Page 7061

1 what they did. They left during the night. They went from one house to

2 the other, depending on who managed to do what. So it was direct force

3 that was used, coming from artillery weapons.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I do understand that the Serbian population of

5 Trnovo had left already. Did they return at any later stage?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. They returned immediately, as

7 soon as the Bosniak population and police got out of Trnovo. I think that

8 there were also direct conflicts with the police. However, there were

9 very few of them, but that is what the people who stayed in Trnovo said.

10 There were no Bosniaks left in Trnovo, and the Serbs returned a few days

11 later. I don't know exactly when this happened, because I was no longer

12 in Trnovo myself.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the Bosniaks could not have returned?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely not.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And for what reason? Could you explain that to us.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because it had already turned into a

17 war, and there were war operations that were going on already. Combat

18 lines were established. So the population left. We're talking about the

19 end of May 1992, when Bosnia-Herzegovina, Trnovo included, had become a

20 battleground.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I do understand that what you understand by

22 being expelled is that they first had to flee due to the shelling and

23 were not able later on to return because of the war operations that would

24 not allow them to return. Is that a correct understanding?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that is a correct

Page 7062

1 understanding, but it's not only that they could not return due to war

2 operations, but also because the authorities that were in place in Trnovo

3 did not even try to call them to come back to Trnovo. I'm referring to

4 the Serb authorities.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your answer.

6 Ms. Loukas, I'm wondering whether it would not be better to start

7 cross-examination after the break.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. I think that's a good idea. And I

9 can indicate that I won't be that long with this witness.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would mean that the next witness should be

11 available already this afternoon. Ms. Karagiannakis, is there --

12 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Yes, Your Honour. This is the only witness

13 that is ready to testify today. His testimony has gone much faster than

14 what we anticipated. The other witness only arrived today -- sorry,

15 yesterday and is only speaking to the attorney in charge of leading his

16 evidence today. And I understand those discussions are still ongoing.

17 And he will not be ready to come on after this witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Karagiannakis, from a point of view of

19 planning, of course, I mean, you're the only one who was aware how much

20 this witness would approximately take. That would be less than one hour

21 and a half, under the 60 per cent rule. It's a bit surprising that the

22 Prosecution did not prepare for the next witness to be present. We have

23 had similar problems of planning and logistics before. If we try to move

24 forward as efficiently as possible, this preferably should not happen.

25 We'll adjourn until five minutes past 4.00.

Page 7063

1 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into

4 the courtroom.

5 Mr. Vatric, please be seated. You'll now be cross-examined by

6 counsel for the Defence, Ms. Loukas.

7 Ms. Loukas, you may proceed.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:

10 Q. Now, Mr. Vatric, good afternoon.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. Now, just prior to the break, His Honour, the Presiding Judge, was

13 asking you some questions in relation to paragraph 20, you'll recall, of

14 your statement.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch the answer.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer. I think it was

17 yes, but ...

18 A. Yes. Yes.


20 Q. And just going to paragraph 11 of your statement, you indicated

21 there that you had no personal knowledge of the establishment of the SDS

22 Crisis Staff; correct?

23 A. As far as my personal knowledge goes, that relates to the place

24 and date of the establishment of crisis staffs. Later on, when they

25 became active, I referred to the Crisis Staff that operated in Trnovo

Page 7064

1 municipality, to the extent that I heard something from my colleagues.

2 Q. Indeed. And of course, Mr. Vatric, the situation is, in terms of

3 what you've placed in your statement and in the way that you've given your

4 evidence today, you're careful to indicate what you know on the basis of

5 your personal knowledge and what you hear from others; correct?

6 A. Yes. I've done my best to make the distinction.

7 Q. Yes. And of course, you're being, of course, fairly, and

8 importantly, careful not to speculate; correct?

9 A. Absolutely so. I've done my best to recall and say anything that

10 I can be certain of.

11 Q. Now, just getting back to paragraph 20 of your statement. His

12 Honour, the Presiding Judge, asked you about the use of the

13 term "expelled" there in the first sentence, and you've given evidence in

14 relation to that in answer to His Honour's question. So I don't propose

15 to ask you anything further about that particular sentence. Just going

16 down, further down paragraph 20, I think it's the fourth sentence, the

17 sentence that begins: "At the beginning, it was the population who lived

18 in the town who were displaced." Do you see that sentence there?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, of course, you used the term "displaced" in that sentence;

21 correct?

22 A. Yes, that's what it says here.

23 Q. And then in the following sentence, the sentence that

24 begins: "The second part of a population," you use the term "expelled" in

25 that next sentence; correct?

Page 7065

1 A. Yes, that's what is written here.

2 Q. And in the following sentence, that begins: "There were about a

3 further thousand people who had been previously displaced," again you

4 used, twice in that sentence, the term "displaced"; correct?

5 A. Yes. I often use the terms "displaced" and "expelled." And to

6 answer this right away, perhaps not the right term was used for a given

7 category that your question relates to. I was talking about those

8 displaced from Trnovo, because I knew that they were -- or rather,

9 expelled, those expelled from Trnovo, because I know that they were

10 expelled. And when I speak of those who were displaced, I mean the people

11 that I'm not sure of whether they left Trnovo before the shelling or

12 after. And sometimes I really use the terms "displaced" and "expelled"

13 without really thinking about the term that I'm using. But you're free to

14 ask a specific question and I'll try to answer it.

15 Q. So you concede that you have on occasion used the terms "expelled"

16 and "displaced" interchangeably; correct?

17 A. That's what the text reads.

18 Q. Now, just in relation to the next part of the paragraph 20, when

19 you talk about the first day of the war, and you indicate that five

20 citizens were killed. The source of your knowledge there is, I take it,

21 not direct knowledge but what you've heard from others. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And again, similarly, in relation to I think the 14 people you've

24 described as being captured; is that correct?

25 A. I know that 14 people were taken away. I know the man who was in

Page 7066

1 the group. Of course, I wasn't there. I learnt it from others. I learnt

2 it from Mr. and Mrs. -- I learnt it from Mrs. Velic, who was there when

3 her husband was taken away.

4 Q. Now, just in relation to some more general matters in relation to

5 Trnovo. Are you aware that the office of the SDS Municipal Board was next

6 to the office of the SDA Municipal Board? In fact, they were in the same

7 building; is that correct?

8 A. Yes. The offices of the political parties originally used to be

9 in a building next to the municipality building, and each party had one

10 office.

11 Q. And I think they were basically separated by a partition; is that

12 correct?

13 A. I don't know which material was used, but the offices were

14 separate.

15 Q. They were right next door to each other virtually; correct?

16 A. Yes. They used a common corridor to enter their offices

17 respectively.

18 Q. Now, just in relation to Trnovo: You're aware, of course, that

19 both -- there were both Muslim and Serb crisis staffs. Do you agree with

20 that proposition?

21 A. In the beginning, I said that I did not take any direct part in

22 the activities of any political parties, nor was I a member of any body.

23 I was asked about the Serbian Democratic Party. Of course, probably

24 following these events, different political parties responded in their own

25 ways, but I would not be able to say anything substantially about their

Page 7067

1 political activities, apart from what I've said.

2 Q. Now, on another topic: Were you aware in early March of 1992 of

3 barricades being set up by both Serbs and by Muslims?

4 A. I was -- I did not learn this, but I rather saw it with my own

5 eyes as I was going to Trnovo from Hrasnica.

6 Q. And in relation to Danilo Goljanin - I hope you'll forgive my

7 pronunciation - he was not a member of the SDS, was he, to your knowledge?

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please speak into the

9 microphone.

10 MS. LOUKAS: It's a little difficult, unfortunately, because the

11 lectern is rather large and positioning the microphone appropriately has

12 become an issue. But I'll move it across.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I'm confident that you'll manage, Ms. Loukas.

14 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.

15 Q. Were you aware whether or not Danilo Goljanin was a member of the

16 SDS or do you have no knowledge of that matter?

17 A. I have no knowledge of this. I know of the family name Goljanin,

18 but I know nothing of the activities of Danilo Goljanin himself.

19 Q. Now, just in relation to -- are you aware of a gentleman by the

20 name of Edhem Gorinak [phoen]?

21 A. Could you please repeat the name?

22 Q. Edhem Gorinak.

23 A. Edhem Gorinak. He was the chief of the police administration in

24 Trnovo.

25 Q. Were you aware of his being involved in setting up barricades and

Page 7068

1 seizing vehicles, activities of that nature, during March 1992?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Now, just in relation to round about April 1992, somewhere between

4 the 16th and the 19th of April 1992: Were you aware of a group of Muslims

5 attacking a mixed police patrol and killing three policemen, one of which

6 was a Serb and two of whom were Muslims? Were you aware of an event of

7 that nature?

8 A. At the time, I was in Hrasnica. Therefore, I was not in Trnovo.

9 Later on, I naturally heard that an incident had taken place, but I do not

10 know the reasons lying behind it, nor who fired or who was the victim. I

11 only heard about it. But throughout April I was in Hrasnica and not in

12 Trnovo.

13 Q. Now, you've already given evidence about the splitting of the

14 police force between the Serbs and the Muslims. Are you aware of the fact

15 that the weapons actually stayed with the Muslims when the Serb policemen

16 went to the cultural house of Trnovo?

17 A. I don't think the police station was divided along the -- between

18 the Bosniaks and Serbs. It was rather the ethnic Serb members that left

19 the public security station Trnovo and moved to other premises. Now, what

20 they actually took along with them or what they left behind, I am not

21 aware of. So there was no division. It was the ethnic Serbs who

22 abandoned the regular police station in Trnovo.

23 Q. Now, are you aware of whether or not, in late March 1992, Trnovo

24 being cut off from Sarajevo, round about that time?

25 A. I passed along this road. I can't remember clearly, but I think I

Page 7069

1 used the road from Sarajevo through Hrasnica to Trnovo until April, and

2 the entire road to Trnovo was passable. Now, whether it was cut off, I

3 suppose it would be cut off for the regular traffic. If you have some

4 blockades or points blocking it, then they would probably be visible.

5 However, I was able to pass along that road.

6 Q. Do you have any information as to round about when that road was

7 cut off?

8 A. I believe it was in early April, when I was cautioned about the

9 checkpoint in Krupac. I was warned, actually, by members of a

10 paramilitary group there that we would not be able to pass. There was

11 Miralem Ramic with me there, president of the Executive Board, with me in

12 the car. So for me, that's when the road was already cut off. Whether

13 there was anyone else going -- using this road, I know that after the 6th

14 of April, nobody could use the road any more.

15 Q. Are you aware of round about the 31st of May, 1992 Muslims

16 capturing a group of approximately 25 to 28 Serbs in the region of Trnovo

17 and Ljuta?

18 A. No. I wouldn't know. Ljuta belongs to Kalinovik municipality.

19 Q. And are you aware of Serbs fleeing homes around that time as a

20 result of that event? I mean, if you know, yes; if you don't know, no.

21 A. Do you mean Trnovo, the municipality of Trnovo?

22 Q. Yes. Leaving as a result of this incident in relation to some

23 Muslims capturing some Serbs.

24 A. I am not aware of the Serbian population being on the move in

25 Trnovo municipality in March and April, because before May, nothing

Page 7070

1 significant happened in our municipality, not even in May, until the

2 attack on Trnovo itself was there anybody on the move, because both the

3 Serbian and Bosniak population stayed at their homes until the end of May.

4 Q. So you're not aware of Serbs leaving the region of Trnovo and

5 Ljuta as a result of this capture by Muslims of a certain group of Serbs?

6 That's correct, isn't it? You're not aware of that?

7 A. No. There was absolutely nobody leaving the municipality of

8 Trnovo, be it the Serbs or Bosniaks, until the end of May 1992, or perhaps

9 something took place that I was not aware of. But neither ethnicities

10 left the municipality. The first wave of people leaving was following the

11 attack on Trnovo on the 31st of May. And this is also true for the ethnic

12 Serbs who stayed in their homes. It was the population living in the town

13 proper of Trnovo who started leaving the area once they came under attack,

14 and I emphasise once again: Ljuta was not included into the Trnovo

15 municipality.

16 Q. Now, on or about the 3rd or 4th of June, 1992, were you aware of

17 Muslim attacks on Serb villages at all?

18 A. This was wartime already. There were military formations there.

19 And I wouldn't know anything specific about either side attacking the

20 other or where it was that the theatre of war came about. It wouldn't

21 really be proper of me to try and answer this question, because I was not

22 informed about any of the formations. I would simply be able to

23 speculate, or, led by you, I wouldn't really know how the armed operations

24 developed. I know that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Territorial

25 Defence organised their units. MUPs had their staffs that were connected

Page 7071

1 to the republic level MUP office. And this was the only thing that I

2 knew. For the rest, it would be merely me conveying to you hearsay.

3 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Vatric. You've very much appropriately

4 declined to speculate.

5 I've only got a couple of more aspects to cover with you before we

6 finish. Are you aware of the time when Trnovo was then, I think round

7 about late July, occupied by the Muslims, by the Bosnia-Herzegovinian

8 army, were you aware during that time of approximately 200 Serb civilians

9 being killed?

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note that they cannot hear counsel

11 speaking.

12 A. No, I didn't know about this. I think I returned to Trnovo in

13 August or September, when the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, or whichever way

14 they were called, the Territorial Defence, when they were regrouping,

15 they -- then I returned it Trnovo and I did not find any ethnic Serbs

16 there. I found Trnovo that was destroyed. A part of the population

17 returned there, together with the service, but that's as far as I can tell

18 you. I don't know how many civilians were actually injured, killed. I

19 wouldn't be able to give you the figures.


21 Q. And were you aware of the Serb Orthodox church being torched at

22 that time?

23 A. When I returned to Trnovo, both places of worship, the mosque and

24 the church, were damaged. You could see that the church was not

25 functioning, because there were no ethnic Serbs there. And I did notice

Page 7072

1 the damage on it.

2 MS. LOUKAS: If I might have a moment, Your Honour. My case

3 manager is trying to get my attention.

4 [Defence counsel confer]


6 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Vatric. No further questions.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Karagiannakis, is there any need to re-examine

9 the witness?

10 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: No, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Judge El Mahdi has one or more questions for you.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

14 Sir, I need a clarification from you. You have said that in the

15 month of May the population was actually divided or separated, if I may

16 put it that way, in such a way that the Muslim population left the

17 Serb-populated areas, and vice versa. You came to the conclusion that

18 this was a reason enough for the checkpoints to be removed, that is to

19 say, there were no more checkpoints, barricades, because there was no need

20 for them and that the population had practically separated, that Serbs no

21 longer lived in Muslim areas, and vice versa. Did you -- is this what you

22 actually said?

23 A. No. I did not really mean to say this. What I meant to say was

24 that the population remained in their homes. Their workplaces were

25 actually divided, that is, the companies that were around Treskavica Hotel

Page 7073

1 were no longer in operation, which meant that the population did not

2 commute to these factories. The cafes and the social life in Trnovo was

3 already divided along the ethnic lines. Serbs would go to certain cafes

4 and Muslims to others. That's what I meant. And I did not mean that

5 physically they were displaced, that they relocated. They remained in

6 their homes, whereas their work and other activities that required them to

7 move, this was something that was already ethnically divided, and that's

8 the division I had in mind.

9 Now, as for the barricades in the month of May, they were no

10 longer the same as the checkpoints in April and March. They were simply

11 checkpoints controlling the movement, asking people to identify

12 themselves.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I will not quote your words, or

14 rather, I will, in English. And you explained this by saying that there

15 was a division along the ethnicities. I think you gave a more detailed

16 explanation. You did not really mean to say that there was a clear

17 division between the populations, that it did not come to the situation

18 that the Serbs who lived in Muslim-populated neighbourhoods, that they had

19 left the areas.

20 A. No, this is not what I wanted to say. Neither ethnicity left the

21 areas where they lived, and Trnovo is a mixed community, where people

22 lived in mixed neighbourhoods.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So why were there barricades in

24 the first place?

25 A. Probably to control movement during the day.

Page 7074

1 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But who was in charge of the

2 barricades?

3 A. I would not know who was in charge of the barricades, but the

4 barricades that were put in place in Trnovo, and when I refer to these

5 barricades, I mean the system that was put in place in order to block

6 people from going to their regular jobs and so on, such a system was

7 actually placed by ethnic Serbs. In my opinion, it was the SDS. After

8 that, barricades became a regular practice. Anyone would place a

9 barricade in one's own street in order to control who it was that was

10 entering the street. That's why I call them barricades, roadblocks, that

11 were there in order to thwart the regular course of everybody's day-to-day

12 lives.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] However, you said that a certain

14 point in the month of May, and I quote, [In English]: "Barricades were no

15 longer needed." [Interpretation] If I understood you correctly, there

16 must have been an authority that took the decision to remove the

17 barricades. Are you aware of this or do you have any information in

18 relation to this?

19 A. I could not really point to a certain authority taking this

20 decision, but I know that there was no need for the checkpoints because

21 all the companies and factories that were active ceased working at that

22 point and nobody had to go there anyway.

23 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you,

24 Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I've got a few questions for you as well.

Page 7075

1 You told us about paragraph 20 of your statement and about the use

2 of the expression "expelled" and "displaced." You also said that you

3 answered in the affirmative when asked whether you used these terms

4 interchangeably. I'd like to go through it - and perhaps you could take it

5 in front of you - in a bit more in detail.

6 In the first line, you used the word "expelled" from Trnovo. I

7 think you explained to us that that was -- that they had to leave as a

8 result of force. Is that a correct understanding?

9 A. Yes, that's what I meant. Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Then if we are a few lines further down, it

11 reads: "At the beginning, it was the population who lived in the town who

12 were displaced." Where you used the word "displaced" here, did you refer

13 to displacement as a result of force or not as a result of force?

14 A. Well, perhaps this paragraph is a bit confusing, as far as this

15 distinction between displaced and expelled is concerned. But perhaps I

16 can explain what I mean when I say "displaced" and when I say "expelled."

17 When I say "expelled," I mean those for whom I know for sure that they

18 were dispelled through the use of physical force, and perhaps those who

19 left homes without the use of any kind of direct force, or at least I

20 don't know about this kind of direct force being used. So it is for the

21 latter group that I use the word "displaced." We had this chain reaction

22 in Trnovo, so people from villages that were not directly attacked by

23 these forces nevertheless left their homes. For me, at that moment, they

24 were displaced; they were not expelled, whereas the people from Trnovo

25 were expelled, through the use of force, physical force.

Page 7076

1 Perhaps I was clearer now rather than when this paragraph was

2 recorded. I did not realise that each and every word was that important,

3 but I've tried to clarify it now.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I then understand you well that you say that

5 the population who lived in the town that were displaced, that it may have

6 been under the circumstances around the town but not as a direct result of

7 force exercised upon them? Is that a correct understanding?

8 A. 1.000 to 1.500 inhabitants who had to leave Trnovo on that day and

9 the following day were the population that was expelled. The others --

10 well, relatively speaking. Now, whether it was 900 people or 1.100

11 people, I really don't know exactly. But there were people who

12 temporarily came to Trnovo and were put up there and they were expelled

13 from Trnovo the following day too. So today they were displaced persons.

14 We took care of them. They came from somewhere, but I cannot say whether

15 they came from Foca because they were expelled by force or whether they

16 became displaced persons out of fear. That's the distinction I'm making.

17 So perhaps at first they were displaced and then they became expelled.

18 JUDGE ORIE: So you say you do not know exactly whether any force

19 was used when they left Foca, but once they had temporarily settled in

20 Trnovo, they then left as a result of force? Is that a correct

21 understanding?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 JUDGE ORIE: So the last time the word "displaced" is used, you

24 intended to say "expelled"?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7077

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.

2 Then my next question is about crisis staffs. You were asked

3 about Muslim crisis staffs, and you said: Well, I did not know exactly

4 how the different nationalities or ethnicities responded to what happened.

5 At least you have got no knowledge of your own. But just as you told us

6 about what you heard about SDS crisis staffs to be established, could you

7 also tell us what you heard about similar activities from other groups,

8 Bosniaks, as far as crisis staffs are concerned.

9 A. I think that the political parties at that time reacted -- well,

10 each and every one of them in their own way. I wish to note that the SDA

11 also established some bodies that they deemed necessary in order to defend

12 themselves from certain things, and also to create conditions for their

13 own work. However, in the work of the municipal authorities, this was not

14 present. I cannot say for the SDS what their staff was like. I cannot

15 say what the SDA staff was like. But also, I cannot assert that there

16 weren't any such bodies in the SDA. I think that at that time, each and

17 every political party reacted in a similar way to all of this, except that

18 I know that the SDA did not have physical force.

19 JUDGE ORIE: What do you mean by that last line, no physical

20 force? That they had no weapons or no ...

21 A. At any rate, they did not have the weapons and the force that the

22 other side had and that was manifested at checkpoints.

23 JUDGE ORIE: When you say "they did not have the weapons and the

24 force," what do you mean exactly by "force"?

25 A. I'm measuring the activity of both political parties and I'm

Page 7078

1 trying to make a distinction there. So even though they had some staffs,

2 or crisis staffs, they could not have military formations, those that

3 could directly threaten the population on the other side.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could they establish checkpoints?

5 A. They could, of course, but they could not have armed forces there

6 as the SDS did. The police force, the regular police force of the public

7 security station in Trnovo, remained within the system. So they did their

8 job to that extent.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You told us that you learned about the

10 establishment of SDS crisis staffs in -- as you said, in Trnovo as well.

11 What did you exactly know about what happened outside Trnovo? Because you

12 said "in Trnovo as well," which suggests that you have some knowledge of

13 what happened elsewhere.

14 A. I think, or rather, facts indicate that Trnovo was one of the last

15 municipalities to be engulfed by the war, out of the ten municipalities

16 that made up the town of Sarajevo. In my opinion, that was one of the

17 most peaceful municipalities for the longest period of time. I knew about

18 other municipalities as well, since we were part of the city of Sarajevo.

19 We often had meetings within the city assembly. The municipality of Pale

20 had already carried out its separation from the city. It was one of the

21 ten municipalities that was no longer part of the city, not because some

22 kind of procedure had been carried through but because they had simply

23 seceded.

24 So perhaps I used the word "and" because of the knowledge I had

25 myself and because of what I heard from other people.

Page 7079

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Vatric.

2 Is there any need to ask further questions to the witness based on

3 the questions put by the Bench? Ms. Loukas.

4 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, there are, as a result of Your Honour's

5 questions.

6 Further cross-examination by Ms. Loukas:

7 Q. Now, you'll recall, Mr. Vatric, prior to my cross-examining you

8 that His Honour asked you -- His Honour, the Presiding Judge, asked you --

9 when I asked you why you used the word that Muslims were expelled, you

10 explained that they had to leave by force. Could you explain a little bit

11 more what you mean by that, how this actually took place, what force was

12 exercised, how precisely that went on. And your answer was that: "Well,

13 the force came from artillery weapons. The town was shelled." And then

14 you go on to say: "The unprotected civilian population in Trnovo was

15 shelled, and this went on incessantly." And then: "That's why my

16 colleague Mr. Durmo told me when he got out of Trnovo, this was the

17 physical attack against Trnovo and there was no other way of protecting

18 the population but getting them out to the neighbouring villages. That's

19 what they did. They left during the night. They went from one house to

20 the other, depending on who managed to do that. So it was direct force

21 that was used coming from artillery weapons."

22 So just to paraphrase what you gave in relation to that answer as

23 your explanation of expelling and leaving by force, the situation is, what

24 you're saying, is as a result of the shelling that was occurring, people

25 were fleeing; correct?

Page 7080

1 A. Yes. People left.

2 Q. And of course, in relation to the evidence that you've given in

3 relation to the -- through that paragraph 20, 2.500 people, of course, I

4 take it you did not speak directly to all 2.500 people that we're dealing

5 with here; correct?

6 A. Of course I did not speak to all 2.500 people, but I could not

7 give you the exact number of people I spoke to. I did speak to a great

8 many people, though, because I provided accommodation for them from the

9 villages of Trnovo all the way down to Split. So I had ample knowledge

10 from them as to why they had left, and that is a fact.

11 Can I just ask you something else? You read something out to me a

12 few minutes ago and you said something like "taking people out"? I can't

13 remember the exact word you used. But Ekrem Durmo, when he was speaking,

14 there was a particular word that was used.

15 Q. We can just check that on the transcript. We'll just do that now.

16 "And there was no other way of protecting the population but getting them

17 out to the neighbouring villages. That's what they did. They left during

18 the night." That's the bit I quoted to you. That was part of your answer

19 to His Honour the Presiding Judge. Is that the bit you're referring to?

20 A. Yes, yes, yes. That's the part I'm referring to. I'm not sure

21 about this word "taking them out." Not the population. I wasn't

22 referring to the population. I was referring to families. So in order to

23 avoid any confusion there, it referred to families rather than the

24 population. That's when I mentioned Ekrem Durmo.

25 Q. I appreciate that. Now, I think you indicated previously that you

Page 7081

1 couldn't tell me exactly how many of these 2.500 people you actually spoke

2 to. Could you give perhaps an approximation of the number of people you

3 spoke to?

4 A. I don't know what a number would mean, but whichever number I give

5 you is correct. Now, whether I'm going to tell you 100, 200, 300,

6 whatever, but I am a person who took care of all these people. And

7 whenever you meet people like that, you exchange a few words. So I think

8 it would be a thankless thing for me to say 100, 200, 300, but I talked to

9 all these people about what had directly happened to them.

10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vatric. No further questions.

11 A. Thank you, too.

12 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions.

13 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: No further questions.

14 JUDGE ORIE: -- Ms. Karagiannakis.

15 Mr. Vatric, this, then, concludes your testimony in this court.

16 I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and to answer all

17 questions put to you by the parties and by the Bench.

18 Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Vatric out of the

19 courtroom. I wish you a safe trip home again, Mr. Vatric.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I did my

21 best to carry out my obligation.

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Chamber still has to deliver a decision in

24 closed session, I would like to ask the parties whether there's anything

25 else to be raised at this very moment. Because otherwise, we'll go into

Page 7082

1 closed session.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Not from the Defence, Your Honour.

3 MS. KARAGIANNAKIS: Nothing from the Prosecution.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps one additional question to the

5 Prosecution. Do we have already some information about exhibits, what is

6 it, 200 up until 203?

7 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour. The correspondence that was

8 referred to by Defence counsel was directed to Mr. Hannis. Mr. Hannis is

9 not here today. I will check with Mr. Hannis tomorrow and perhaps we can

10 resolve this quickly tomorrow.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's, then, do it tomorrow.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll first give decision on the exhibits. Madam

14 Registrar.

15 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P322, witness statement dated

16 21 January 1998, and P322.1, B/C/S translation. P323, map of Sarajevo and

17 surrounding municipalities, marked by witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you objected against the language of the

19 statement, especially in view of paragraph 20. Does that objection still

20 stand? We -- as you may have noticed, it was at least at that moment the

21 Chamber thought that it could be admitted, but ...

22 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, indeed.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please use --

24 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry. Yes, Your Honour. Of course, Your Honours

25 made that preliminary indication in relation to admissibility on the basis

Page 7083

1 of further evidence in chief, cross-examination. The area, of course, has

2 been dealt with in evidence in chief, cross-examination, questions from

3 the Chamber, and in those circumstances, it now seems futile to persist,

4 of course, in that particular objection, because it's now been dealt with

5 appropriately through viva voce questioning.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Then Exhibits 322 and 322.1 and

7 323, all proceeded by the letter P, are admitted in evidence.

8 Then I'd like to turn into -- I said closed session, but perhaps,

9 since it's just reading out a decision, that private session would do.

10 Just looking to the parties, especially to you, Mr. Harmon. It's a

11 decision about transcripts.

12 MR. HARMON: Private session is fine.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Private session is fine. We'll then turn into

14 private session.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7084

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, tomorrow morning, 9.00, next witness will

11 be available to be examined by the Prosecution?

12 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. I understood it was tomorrow

13 afternoon.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. Yes. It should be at 2.15 tomorrow

15 afternoon. As far as I understand, Madam Registrar, in Courtroom I? Yes,

16 that will be in Courtroom I.

17 We'll then adjourn until tomorrow morning, a quarter past 2.00,

18 Courtroom I.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.06 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day of

21 October 2004, at 2.15 p.m.