Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7356

1 Tuesday, 26 October 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.26 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 We have a few procedural items still pending. I leave it a bit

11 to the parties whether we start with them or that we do it later this

12 afternoon. But I see that the Prosecution is there with a strong team,

13 so it might be that they would like to express themselves on some of the

14 issues.

15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. You're quite correct. Mr.

16 Gaynor is here for the purpose of addressing one of those issues.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One of those issues, and that would be which

18 one, Mr. Gaynor?

19 MR. GAYNOR: It concerns the request for videoconference.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In relation to conflicting treaty obligations,

21 safe conduct, et cetera; is that right?

22 MR. GAYNOR: That's right, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, let me first of all ask you whether the

24 Defence has already filed a response to that motion, because I haven't

25 seen it yet.

Page 7357

1 MR. STEWART: It's on its way right now, Your Honour. I signed

2 it about 25 minutes ago and it's on its way.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would it be of any use to first read that

4 response and then postpone it to later this afternoon? Perhaps the

5 Chamber during the break could also look at a response. Because I take

6 it, Mr. Stewart, since the issue of the conflicting treaty obligations

7 has been raised last Friday that we find something in your response as

8 well.

9 MR. STEWART: No, I'm sorry, you don't, Your Honour, on that. We

10 haven't gone into that issue.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then if not, then I would not --

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, perhaps I can explain why, because we

14 weren't just being difficult. After all, the issue having been raised in

15 court the other day it did really seem to us that it was primarily for

16 the Prosecution then to make further investigations on that question to

17 support their motion. So obviously we will look at anything at the

18 appropriate time, but that did seem a fair order and avoid unnecessary

19 work and duplication.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, how much time would you need to address

21 this specific issue?

22 MR. GAYNOR: Very little time, Your Honour, I can tell you right

23 now in about two sentences. We have reconsidered the position in the

24 light of Your Honours' interpretations of the Headquarter agreement and

25 in light of the general preference for in-court testimony as opposed to

Page 7358

1 videoconference testimony. For those reasons we have decided not to

2 pursue our request for videolink testimony. And in all other respects,

3 the motion remains the same. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's a clear answer. Of course, our

5 interpretation is very important, but of course most important for safe

6 conducts is the interpretation by the Dutch government of the host

7 agreement, isn't it, because they have to refrain from whatever one might

8 have in mind.

9 Then we'll look at the matter, but first read the response by the

10 Defence.

11 Any other issue, procedural issue, to be raised urgently?

12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, there's a practical issue as opposed

13 to strictly a procedural issue, which is this: I was informed yesterday

14 by Ms. Cmeric that there had been a problem about the installation of the

15 appropriate software in Mr. Krajisnik's computer at the UN Detention

16 Unit, so as to enable him to listen to B/C/S audiotapes of previous

17 evidence in other cases, transcripts from other cases. Not surprisingly,

18 Your Honour, I tend to leave nuts and bolts like that to other members of

19 the team. I didn't realise until yesterday that this was a continuing

20 problem. Neither did Ms. Cmeric. It had been reported to her. But the

21 current position is that Mr. Krajisnik does not have this facility and is

22 therefore unable -- he can listen to audiotapes where they're available

23 of interviews, because it's a different software, I understand, without

24 my being able to go into that, but he can't listen to transcripts of

25 previous evidence. That's clearly --

Page 7359

1 JUDGE ORIE: They are stored on what medium? CD-ROMs.


3 JUDGE ORIE: Not normal audio.

4 MR. STEWART: I said a audiotapes. I was using that in a rather

5 loose generic way, I think, Your Honour. Because I believe that they are

6 on CD-ROMs.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what confused me slightly.

8 MR. STEWART: Yes. I beg your pardon, Your Honour. The

9 programme is called an FTR programme, apparently, but again, don't ask me

10 to go any further on that one.


12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar informs me that already a start was

14 made this morning to resolve that problem and that the Detention Unit and

15 all the technicians have to work together one way or the other, but they

16 are quite busy in establishing such a working relationship at this

17 moment. So with this information, I think I stay out, the Chamber stays

18 out for a little while and see whether it is resolved. If not, then

19 we'll further pursue the matter.

20 MR. STEWART: Yes. Well, I'm grateful, Your Honour. I was

21 actually going to say exactly the same, that I certainly intend to stay

22 out of it as much as possible. But I'm grateful for the Trial Chamber's

23 support when needed.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any other procedural issue? I've got a few on

25 my list, but I'm not insisting.

Page 7360

1 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour, nothing that needs to be addressed

2 immediately.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then may I just mention a few matters that first of

4 all I received an e-mail, copy of an e-mail, which confirms that the

5 investigators, Defence investigators, could come on the 4th and 5th of

6 November. I don't know whether the parties have already discussed what

7 consequences it this would have for the court schedule of that week,

8 especially in view of witnesses to be called.

9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, we have discussed that and we've tried

10 to adjust our calendar accordingly. We were going to try to move up one

11 of the witnesses scheduled for next week to this week but he had a

12 passport problem so we weren't able to do that. So our plan is to have

13 two witnesses for those three days and one of the three witnesses that

14 was scheduled to begin on Monday will be moved to the following Monday,

15 November 8th. I can provide an updated schedule to the Defence counsel

16 and the Court later on today.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So that has the attention of the parties.

18 Then your comments on what I would call the court schedule, long-term

19 court schedule, perhaps we wait, but are the parties ready to comment on

20 it, as I indicated last Friday, I think, that both parties would have ten

21 minutes and then, if needed another five minutes.

22 MR. HANNIS: Generally speaking, we are ready, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Would the Defence be ready?

24 MR. STEWART: Actually, I'm not really ready today, Your Honour.

25 I didn't appreciate we were going to be asked today. We can make

Page 7361

1 ourselves ready of course fairly quickly, but not today, please.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll leave it for today and I'll come

3 back to it tomorrow.

4 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then is the Defence -- is the Prosecution ready to

6 call its next witness?

7 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, we are.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher.

9 And I take it that this is Mr. --

10 MR. TIEGER: This is Mr. Radic, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, yes, Predrag Radic. Yes.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, do you hear me in a language you

14 understand?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do hear you, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, before you give evidence in this court,

17 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

18 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

19 the truth. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration of which the

20 text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Radic. Mr. Radic,

Page 7362

1 you'll first be examined by counsel for the Prosecution.

2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, before I begin, I would note that when

3 Mr. Radic testified previously in the Brdjanin case he did receive a

4 caution pursuant to Rule 90. I don't know if the Court wanted to renew

5 that.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, the counsel for the Prosecution, Mr.

8 Tieger, has asked me to draw your attention to Rule 90 of the Rules of

9 Procedure and Evidence. Did you have any specific -- you mean the 90(E)

10 caution?

11 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I had no intention of trumping the

12 Court's intentions, but I didn't know if you had an opportunity to be

13 aware of the procedure that was followed in Brdjanin. Obviously, the

14 witness is aware of what happened in that case, and if the Court feels

15 that no further attention is necessary I have no problem with that.

16 JUDGE ORIE: I have not been informed about -- is the caution

17 about the right of an accused to oppose against answering a question?

18 That's what you had in mind?

19 MR. TIEGER: Yes. I think Judge Agius referred to him as a

20 protagonist in the events and therefore out of an abundance of caution --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, as I'm just told was done in -- during

22 your testimony in the Brdjanin case, I draw your attention to Rule 90(E),

23 which reads that: "A witness may object to making any statement which

24 might tend to incriminate himself." If you would object to answering any

25 question that might incriminate yourself, this Chamber, however, can

Page 7363

1 compel you to answer the question, but if you are compelled in this way,

2 your answer cannot be used as evidence in a subsequent proceedings

3 against yourself. Apart from that, you're still under a duty to speak

4 the truth, and therefore, if -- the only possible prosecution if this

5 Rule will be applied is that if you would make a false statement, which

6 of course this Chamber does not expect you to do.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Examined by Mr. Tieger:

10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Radic. We've not met --

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. -- before. I'm Alan Tieger, I'm with the Office of the

13 Prosecutor, and I'll be asking you questions first and then the Defence

14 will have an opportunity to ask questions, as will the Court.

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. Perhaps we can begin by familiarising the Court a bit with your

17 background. You currently live in Banja Luka and are a Serb by

18 ethnicity; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are you still a professor on the economic faculty at Banja Luka

21 University; sir?

22 A. Yes, I am.

23 Q. And are you still involved as a director of the local brewery?

24 A. Yes, I am.

25 Q. And is it correct that you are the president currently of a small

Page 7364

1 political party known as the Democratic Patriotic Party?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. If I could turn your attention to the multi-party elections in

4 1990. Were you asked at that time by the SDS to consent to have your

5 name put forward by them as a candidate for office?

6 A. Yes, I was.

7 Q. And in November of 1990, were you elected president of the

8 Municipal Assembly for Banja Luka?

9 A. I was.

10 Q. And did you assume that office in January of 1991?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. And is it correct, sir, that after your election, you then in

13 fact joined the SDS?

14 A. After that, yes.

15 Q. And a couple of more preliminary matters. In July of 1991, were

16 you elected to the Main Board of the SDS?

17 A. I was, yes.

18 Q. And in 1992, did you become a member of the ARK Crisis Staff, the

19 Crisis Staff for the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

20 A. By virtue of my position as president in the municipality, yes, I

21 did.

22 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, during the course of your activities, political

23 activities, in 1990 and thereafter, did you have an opportunity to meet

24 and work with various members of the SDS and Bosnian Serb leadership?

25 A. Through the Main Board, basically, yes.

Page 7365

1 Q. You attended meetings of the Main Board?

2 A. I did, yes.

3 Q. And those were meetings at which SDS policy was formulated?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did you also attend various gatherings or assemblies at which the

6 municipal, regional, and republic leaders of the SDS, and later the

7 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, gathered?

8 A. I don't know which gatherings you mean. If you mean meetings

9 where opinions were expressed, then the answer is yes, I did.

10 Q. Let me give you an example of one such meeting and direct your

11 attention to a meeting that was held on February 14th, 1992, in Sarajevo.

12 MR. TEIGER: And in that connection, Your Honour, I would draw

13 the Court's attention to Prosecution's Exhibit 67A, tab 27. That's the

14 binder of intercepts and speeches adduced during the course of Mr.

15 Treanor's testimony.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, this is indicated as an extended session of the

17 Main and Executive Board of the SDS, held in the Holiday Inn in Sarajevo.

18 And by way of directing your attention to some of what was discussed at

19 that meeting and to your own presence there, perhaps I'll be able to

20 bring your attention to one particular part of that meeting.

21 Now, Mr. Radic, to assist you in identifying the location in the

22 B/C/S, I would note that working backwards in the text, you will see one

23 cut -- indication of a cut in the recording, and then a second one. And

24 it's at that second spot that I wish to draw your attention briefly.

25 That's on page 24, Your Honours, of the 31-page English translation.

Page 7366

1 This is Dr. Karadzic speaking and Dr. Karadzic states, beginning at line

2 15 [sic] of page 24: "And, as regards the essence, of which Mr. Radic

3 spoke, now, please, that is why we called you today, to intensify, to

4 introduce the 'second level'" -- second level is in quotes -- "and to

5 intensify the functioning of the government at any cost and on every

6 single millimetre of our territory. Now I'm asking you for a break, what

7 do you say, half an hour?"

8 Mr. Radic, is the meeting of February 14th, 1992 in Sarajevo an

9 example of the kind of meetings you spoke of when you talked about your

10 attendance at gatherings, meetings at which opinions were expressed?

11 A. Well, you know how it is. This is a very long document for me to

12 be able to say. But yes, I do remember that meeting and I arrived at the

13 meeting feeling very ill. And after the break, I in fact left the

14 meeting. And I wasn't able to say anything afterwards, later on. But as

15 far as I am able to gather from what I have here, it was a question of

16 forming the executive organs which in actual fact didn't exist. So this

17 was the beginnings.

18 The 28th of February, 1992 we were still not at war and we didn't

19 have any state organs, no state organs of any kind, on the 28th of

20 February, in actual fact. So in the municipalities, this led us into a

21 position in which we tried to find solutions for everything that we

22 weren't able to do and receive from the state, coming down to us, the

23 executive organs or anything like that.

24 Q. I appreciate your effort to comment on the text, but my question

25 for the moment was limited to the more simple question of your

Page 7367

1 recollection of your attendance at that meeting. Perhaps a little later

2 in the proceeding I'll be able to present you with a copy of your own

3 remarks on that occasion.

4 Now, in addition to your attendance --

5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just a bit confused about the witness talking

6 about the 28th of February. Could you clarify that.


8 Q. The Court correctly brings our attention to the fact that you

9 mentioned the 28th of February in your answer. I believe that you were

10 referring to this particular document, which is dated the 14th, and so I

11 just want to clarify whether this was just a mistaken recollection of the

12 date or you were referring to something else.

13 A. No. Quite simply, this document, this material that you have

14 just given me, I'm seeing for the first time in this shape and form. All

15 right. It's the 14th of February, as it says here. So it is even

16 clearer, then, that we didn't have any organs and that this was a

17 meeting, as far as I can see - I would have to read through it all to

18 remember all the details - but anyway, it was a meeting devoted to the

19 formation of organs that we were lacking at that time, that we didn't

20 have in Republika Srpska. Nor did Republika Srpska itself exist at that

21 time.

22 Q. Thank you, sir. I just wanted to clarify the date, and I

23 appreciate that clarification.

24 Now, in addition to attending meetings of the Main Board, your

25 attendance at meetings such as the gathering on February 14th, 1992, did

Page 7368












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7369

1 you also participate with leaders of the SDS and Republika Srpska at

2 rallies?

3 A. There were a certain number of rallies. One such rally was

4 presented to me in the Brdjanin trial. However, I did not say what I

5 said there, but I did take part in meetings, in rallies. It was a way in

6 which we could express our views about what was going on on the soil of

7 the former Yugoslavia. So if I can put it this way, it was the

8 dissolution of Yugoslavia. And without asking a constituent peoples. So

9 a rally was a way in which we could say that we didn't agree.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, may I ask your attention for the

11 following: You were asked whether you participated with leaders of the

12 SDS and the Republika Srpska at rallies. You gave a lot of details on

13 what you expect the rally to be, on which questions that will follow

14 focussing, but we do not know that yet. The question was quite simple:

15 Whether you participated in such rallies. In the next questions Mr.

16 Tieger will ask you for further details. We are under some time

17 constraints. Could I ask you to listen carefully to the question and

18 first of all answer that question, and then wait for another question.

19 If there would be something important finally missing, you always can

20 address the Chamber and say: Well, I'd like to add a few things on the

21 questions already put to me.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Your Honour, I'd like marked as next in order a video, which is

25 B/C/S V000-4757.

Page 7370

1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit number P354, and the

3 transcript, P354A.


5 Q. Mr. Radic, you referred to a video of a rally that you were shown

6 during the Brdjanin case. I'd like to quickly play a couple of excerpts

7 from that tape for the benefit of this Chamber.

8 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

9 JUDGE ORIE: It is important for the transcript, Mr. Tieger, that

10 whatever is said in B/C/S will be translated in English, because

11 otherwise it doesn't appear in the French transcript either.

12 MR. TIEGER: And if we could play clip 1 of video 1.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The meeting was opened by Predrag

15 Radic, the President of the Municipal Assembly of Banja Luka, with the

16 following message. 'Twice they slaughtered us. We were forgiven but not

17 forgotten. If they try to do the same for the third time we shall

18 neither forgive nor forget, regardless of how non-Christian it may be.'"


20 Q. First of all, Mr. Radic, the video depicts you at that rally; is

21 that right? That was the portion we just saw?

22 A. Yes, it does. Correct.

23 Q. And although on the video it's possible to hear some of your

24 words, what we heard in court today was the announcer paraphrasing what

25 you said. Do you recall your precise words on that occasion? And did

Page 7371

1 the -- do you know the -- can you tell us the extent to which the

2 announcer captured the gist of what you were saying.

3 A. Well, I can't remember all the details in the exact words that I

4 uttered on the occasion, in that year. The journalist did convey what,

5 in his opinion, it was that I said. However, the message was quite

6 clear. The message I sent out was a clear one, to this effect: that

7 those who slaughtered us twice should not attempt to do so a third time.

8 It would be Christian to forgive, but not to forget. We cannot forget.

9 And it was at that point that I think the Prosecutor, said that I

10 instilled fear into the population by saying that on that occasion.

11 Unfortunately, gentlemen, I did not.

12 Q. Mr. Radic --

13 A. That time, not only did they slaughterer us; they cut off our

14 heads.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, you are telling us about what someone

16 said at a certain moment. This Chamber is not aware of it. This Chamber

17 does not know of that. So there's no reason to deny or to respond to

18 that.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


21 Q. And Mr. Radic, was that in effect a warning to those who would

22 consider taking the steps that you were discussing?

23 A. As I said, that was only a warning. It was not a threat. It was

24 just a warning that they should not proceed along those lines. Because I

25 myself am a victim of World War II, of acts of that kind.

Page 7372

1 Q. Is it correct, sir, that this was a rally just before the

2 plebiscite of November 1991?

3 A. I think that's it, yes.

4 Q. Is it also correct that there was a view among the SDS

5 leadership, and perhaps the Serbian people in general - you can tell us -

6 that those who did not vote in the plebiscite and who did not show

7 solidarity with the Serbian people were, in effect, traitors?

8 A. Well, I don't know. I really can't say that that was the general

9 view. But it was to be expected that the Serbian people would declare

10 themselves in a plebiscite to remain within Yugoslavia. Now, whether

11 they called them traitors or not, I really can't say.

12 Q. The rally itself was intended to respond -- the rally itself and

13 the plebiscite, was intended to respond to the intentions of Muslims, at

14 least as seen by the SDS, to have Bosnia leave Yugoslavia; is that right?

15 A. Well, not only the SDS, I don't think, but the Serbian people in

16 general. The Serb people were generally against stepping down from

17 Yugoslavia, for well-known reasons.

18 Q. And is it correct that subsequent to the plebiscite, that the

19 question of who had acted in solidarity with the Serbian people, and in

20 particular, who had or had not voted in the plebiscite, was used as a

21 measure to determine certain actions against those people, such as

22 dismissals from positions?

23 A. How could you know how people voted at a plebiscite? It's an

24 assumption that that could be used as a basis for one or another measure

25 to be taken. But I should like to ask you how we could do this. We in

Page 7373

1 Banja Luka could not know, absolutely not.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just intervene. From the answer, it appears

3 that either the question has not been properly translated or not been

4 fully understood by the witness. Mr. Tieger, you asked about who had or

5 had not voted, whereas it seems that the witness has understood this as

6 how people had voted rather than whether they had voted.

7 So the question was whether - at least that's how it appears in

8 English - that not how people had voted, but whether or not they had

9 voted was used as a measure to determine certain actions against those

10 people, such as dismissals from positions. That was the question. From

11 your answer, I understood that you either had it wrongly translated or

12 not fully understood. Could you please answer the question.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It couldn't have been a basis for

14 anybody to have been dismissed from their job, and in Banja Luka, at

15 least, not in Banja Luka where I was the president of the Municipal

16 Assembly. Things like that didn't happen.

17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, could I have marked next in order an

18 article from Oslobodjenje of November 12th, 1991, entitled "You should

19 better give yourselves up."

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number --?

21 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution number P355.


23 Q. Mr. Radic, I believe this is a document you had an opportunity to

24 see during the course of your testimony in the Brdjanin case.

25 A. Yes.

Page 7374

1 Q. And this -- the article quotes Mr. Brdjanin, at that time the

2 deputy chairman of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Bosanska

3 Krajina, as proposing that all directors and other managers who did not

4 take part in the plebiscite be urgently dismissed in their positions in

5 the entire Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina.

6 And further down the article, it quotes Mr. Brdjanin as

7 indicating that such people should tender their resignations right away

8 because we shall find out their names in a few days when he we check the

9 lists of voters.

10 Mr. Radic, regardless of your own position that it was absurd to

11 use voting in the plebiscite as a test for retention or dismissal from

12 positions, is it correct that Mr. Brdjanin and others took the position

13 that such dismissals should occur?

14 A. From this we can see that that is right. That was their

15 position. But it didn't turn out that way. That's not what happened.

16 And I can prove it. I can prove that things like that did not happen.

17 Q. Well, we'll get into the question of dismissals further on during

18 the course of our question and answer. If you would wait on that, and

19 you'll have an opportunity to address that.

20 During the course of your testimony in Brdjanin, you also had an

21 opportunity to see an intercepted transcript of an intercepted telephone

22 conversation and indeed listen to an audiotape of that intercepted

23 telephone conversation, one involving you, Mr. Brdjanin, and Mr. Vukic

24 and Dr. Karadzic. Do you recall that, sir?

25 A. I do recall it, yes.

Page 7375

1 Q. And as you indicated during the course of your testimony, that

2 was a conversation that took place after the publication of this article

3 and after Mr. Brdjanin had taken the position that is described in the

4 article.

5 MR. TIEGER: And Your Honour in that respect I'd like to have

6 marked for identification, an intercepted telephone conversation,

7 transcript of an intercepted telephone conversation, ERN 03083923 through

8 03083933.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P356.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I take it that you want to tender that

11 as an exhibit. Marking for identification is often used for another use

12 of documents.

13 MR. TIEGER: You're quite right, Your Honour. Thank you.

14 Q. Mr. Radic, let me direct your attention to a particular portion

15 of that intercepted telephone conversation. And that's found in the

16 English translation toward the second half of page 4 and onward,

17 beginning with Mr. Vukic speaking, who says:

18 "Dr. Vukic: Well, that's great. Here's Radic for a bit.

19 Dr. Karadzic says: Put him on.

20 Dr. Vukic says: I have mostly understood these options and am

21 sticking right to them.

22 Dr. Karadzic says: Excellent.

23 Dr. Vukic says: Therefore there's no problem as far as Brdjo and

24 Radic and I are concerned.

25 Dr. Karadzic says: Well, fine. Brdjo was a bit out of order. I

Page 7376

1 tried to get him off the hook by saying it was a joke. Fuck him. (He

2 laughs.)

3 Dr. Vukic says: Okay, he was out of order, he didn't fuck... He

4 didn't say that. No...

5 Dr. Karadzic: Well, never mind. What --

6 Dr. Vukic says: ...Brdjo can't say that for his own sake or

7 that... because Brdjo is like a guard.

8 Dr. Karadzic: No. That thing about directors, about directors

9 and --

10 Vukic: Er, directors?

11 Dr. Karadzic: Yes, yes.

12 Dr. Vukic: Very well, then, we'll... it will have to be done, it

13 doesn't need to be explained.

14 Dr. Karadzic says: Well, umm, well, fuck him. Instead of

15 working and keeping quiet he doesn't work but talks.

16 Dr. Vukic says: Dead right.

17 Dr. Karadzic says: Now... he's working hard and there's no talk,

18 fuck him. (Laughs.)

19 And then Dr. Vukic says: Mhmm. Here's Radic for a bit. It's

20 okay, boss. Take care."

21 Now, in part, this telephone conversation was about the newspaper

22 article we just looked at; is that correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. And what Mr. Brdjanin was already saying in November 1991 was

25 that people who were not considered loyal to the Serbian state should be

Page 7377

1 dismissed; is that right?

2 A. Yes. Yes, that's what it says here.

3 Q. And we looked earlier at, a few moments ago, at your comments

4 from the rally, the plebiscite rally of November of 1991. I'd like to

5 direct your attention and the Chamber's attention to the remarks of a

6 couple of other participants in the rally.

7 MR. TIEGER: If we could play clip 2, please.

8 [Videotape played]

9 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "All dark forces for different

10 reasons want to topple our common homeland, to divide us up. And I hope

11 that we will not allow that to happen."

12 MR. TIEGER: And clip 3, please.

13 Q. Before we go on, although it may seem obvious to you, if you

14 could just identify that speaker, please.

15 A. Yes. That was Mr. Krajisnik.

16 MR. TIEGER: And clip 3, please.

17 [Videotape played]

18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] " tell the truth, justice and

19 -- to tell about what's happening in the region.

20 "On the 10th of November, by voting to stay in the joint state

21 with all the Serbian lands and all those who wish to stay with us, we

22 hope to once and for all put a circle by state where there will be no

23 traitors, a state that will not fall apart every 20 years."


25 Q. And Mr. Radic, if you could identify those two speakers at the

Page 7378

1 November 1991 rally.

2 A. The second one was Mr. Velibor Ostojic, and the third one was

3 quite recognisable. It was Mr. Radovan Karadzic.

4 Q. Mr. Radic, in addition to your position as a member of the --

5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I make a suggestion which may be

6 found helpful for the future, which is this: that if a witness is going

7 to be asked to come along and look at a video clip of Mr. Krajisnik or

8 Mr. Ostojic or Mr. Karadzic, then in future, we need not trouble

9 witnesses with that sort of thing, because if the Prosecution would like

10 to run that material past us in advance, we can actually quite reliably

11 identify Mr. Krajisnik. That's not a difficult one for us. Mr. Karadzic

12 is also not very difficult and I don't think Mr. Ostojic would be

13 difficult. We will do that and we will save everybody's time.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

15 MR. TIEGER: Well, thank you, Your Honour. That's very gracious

16 of Mr. Stewart, and I appreciate it, but I don't believe the time savings

17 will be considerable. But we'll certainly take that into account.

18 MR. STEWART: They may be cumulative.

19 MR. TIEGER: It would not have obviated the need to show the

20 video, in any event.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. These are short questions on

22 whether the witness recognised the speakers. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


24 Q. Mr. Radic, I began to ask you the following: In addition to your

25 membership on the ARK Crisis Staff were you also a member of the Banja

Page 7379

1 Luka municipal Crisis Staff?

2 A. Well, I explained it all the last time, and although Honourable

3 Judge said that this was another case, well, it's the same case. The

4 last time I said that once I was present at the ARK Crisis Staff meeting,

5 just once, and never again.

6 Now, when we're talking about the Crisis Staff of Banja Luka, I

7 was a member of the Banja Luka Crisis Staff. It was something that was

8 upon orders and it did not last for very long, because the activity of

9 the Municipal Assembly was discontinued. That's why. That's what I

10 already said and that's what you can find in my testimony in the Brdjanin

11 case.

12 Q. Just by way of guidance, Mr. Radic, and following up on the

13 Court's suggestion, I think the answer to that question would have been a

14 simple yes, you were a member of the Banja Luka Municipal Crisis Staff.

15 A. Yes, I was. By ex officio, of course.

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'd like the witness to be shown an

17 exhibit previously introduced in this case, and that's the December 19th,

18 1991 instructions, the Variant A and B document.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, when this document is distributed,

20 certainly there's a way of improving the logistics of documents, I would

21 say.


23 Q. Mr. Radic, you were shown this document in the course of your

24 testimony in the Brdjanin case. And you are familiar with it?

25 A. Yes.

Page 7380

1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, this doesn't seem to be the one. We

2 seem to have another piece of paper altogether, 22nd of June, 1992.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We received the paper of the ...

4 Mr. Tieger, we received one document, 22nd of June, 1992; another

5 document, the 23rd of June, 1992; and the second one without an original,

6 just a translation.

7 MR. TIEGER: Let me see if I can proceed without taking the

8 Court's time with the distribution of the Variant A and B document, Your

9 Honour, based on some questions to the witness.


11 Q. Mr. Radic, first of all, do you recall the discussion concerning

12 the instructions of December 19th, 1991, the so-called Variant A and B

13 document? Do you recall a discussion during the course of your Brdjanin

14 testimony?

15 A. This isn't the document I'm holding.

16 Q. No. I understand that, sir. And it appears that you were handed

17 the wrong document.

18 JUDGE ORIE: We have established -- so questions are put to you

19 now without an underlying document.

20 A. But what document are you referring to? I cannot really talk

21 about it unless I know the title of this document of the 19th of

22 December. First of all, I have to tell you that this document here was

23 not signed by Mr. Brdjanin. That's what I've told you the last time as

24 well. This one dated 22nd June.

25 MR. TIEGER: We will retrieve the document and have it available

Page 7381












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7382

1 after the break, Your Honour.


3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

4 JUDGE ORIE: The relevant document has been found. I think that

5 it's not an entirely new document for us. If it's put on the ELMO, I

6 take it that -- and if perhaps the -- then the original. We have a

7 problem anyhow in ...

8 Mr. Tieger, do you have a copy of the English translation of it?

9 MR. TIEGER: I believe we do, Your Honour. I think it can be

10 found in binder 18, tab 35, but let's make sure we have it before ...

11 JUDGE ORIE: It's you who is going to examine the witness on it.

12 I see we have here one with the number 100 on it.


14 Q. With the very helpful intervention and assistance of the

15 Registry, Your Honour, that document is at P65, tab 66, I'm advised. The

16 witness will now have it?



19 Q. Mr. Radic, having now had an opportunity - and please take your

20 time if you need to peruse the document further - do you recall being

21 presented with that document and discussing it briefly during the course

22 of your testimony in the Brdjanin case?

23 A. You seem to rely too much upon my memory. I would have to review

24 the document. First I have to tell the Honourable Trial Chamber that

25 nobody consulted me concerning my arrival here, neither on the

Page 7383

1 Prosecution side or the Defence side, in order for me to review the

2 documents in advance to be able to answer these questions. I think this

3 would have been quite understandable. Regardless of the fact that I had

4 a chance of looking at these documents in the Brdjanin case.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, if you need more time to look at these

6 documents, that time will be granted to you.

7 Mr. Tieger, I do not know what other documents you would need at

8 this moment or whether you'd prefer to have an early break and perhaps

9 prepare a copy so that Mr. Radic could, during the break, have a further

10 look at the document. I leave it up to you. But that would be one of

11 the options.

12 MR. TIEGER: In light of the witness's comments, I'm more than

13 happy to take an early recess and permit the witness to take a look at

14 the document.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then preferably not the original that was

16 -- that is in evidence, but if then perhaps copies could be made. And

17 perhaps also copies in the -- of the original in B/C/S so that Mr.

18 Krajisnik is able to follow the testimony of the witness.

19 Mr. Radic, if you would perhaps give that document back to Madam

20 Usher. A copy will be made. You will have an opportunity over the next

21 break to read it again, consult it, and we'll have a break until 5

22 minutes to 4.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 3.29 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 3.59 p.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed. But before doing so,

Page 7384

1 Mr. Radic, did you have an opportunity to look at the 19th of December

2 document again?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.


5 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, did you attend the meeting in December 1991

6 regarding the introduction or distribution of this document?

7 A. I'm not certain, sir. If there are any records of the meeting,

8 it would be useful to look at them. But I'm not really certain as to

9 whether I was at this meeting on the 19th of December.

10 Q. Did the instruction arrive in all municipalities?

11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stewart.

13 MR. STEWART: No. It's all right, Your Honour. I withdraw.

14 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Tieger.

15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Mr. Radic, the question was: Did the instruction arrive in all

17 municipalities?

18 A. It probably did. I cannot really say for a fact that it had

19 reached all the municipalities, but probably it did.

20 Q. In accordance with the -- let me ask you to look -- first, you've

21 had a chance to look these over, including the enumerated items. In

22 accordance with the instructions, did the municipal SDS in Banja Luka

23 establish a crisis staff, as indicated in the document, and specifically

24 as indicated in item 3?

25 A. The municipal SDS to form a crisis staff? Yes.

Page 7385

1 Q. Do you remember how you received the document, or whether it was

2 brought to you by any other member of the Main Board?

3 MR. STEWART: Isn't there a prior question, Your Honour?

4 JUDGE ORIE: There might be a prior question, but --

5 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, there is a prior question,

6 because the question as put makes an obvious assumption.


8 Q. Mr. Radic, I understand from your previous answer that you don't

9 know whether you received the document, you don't recall specifically

10 whether you received the document at the December 19th -- or the meeting

11 on or about December 19th itself.

12 A. I don't recall being at this meeting at all, but having read this

13 document here, I can see that this document was distributed to the

14 municipal boards of the SDS and that's when this so-called partisan

15 document was then produced.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I think the question Mr. Stewart had in

17 mind is whether the witness received a copy of this document. Even if

18 you did not attend the meeting, did you receive this document, a copy of

19 this document.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please believe me when I say that I

21 don't recall receiving it. But I know that there was a discussion on

22 this document, because the presidents of the SDS municipal boards

23 received them, as it says here. It says here that they were to receive

24 them, and then act upon implementing them. Because this is a party

25 document.

Page 7386

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.


3 Q. Now, as we can see from the first page of the document, Mr.

4 Radic, it bears the title of the -- and as you've just explained, it's a

5 party document -- bearing the name of the SDS Main Board.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Is it correct that there are also local boards and municipal

8 boards?

9 A. There were municipal boards and there were branches in the local

10 communes. Larger towns had municipal boards and had their local boards.

11 Banja Luka, for instance, had 57 local boards because it had 57 local

12 communes.

13 Q. And did the local boards respond to the municipal boards and the

14 municipal boards, in turn, respond to the Main Board?

15 A. The local boards received tasks from the municipal board and

16 responded -- were answerable to the municipal board for what they had to

17 do. And of course, the municipal boards must have been responsible to

18 the Main Board, or, as we used to call it at one time, the central

19 committee, the Main Board, therefore.

20 Q. Let me turn your attention to the ARK Crisis Staff, of which you

21 were a member, as you've noted. The ARK Crisis Staff covered a region of

22 over 20 municipalities in the Krajina; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. TIEGER: And if I could have marked as the next exhibit in

25 order a portion of the Official Gazette of May 5th, 1992.

Page 7387

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Is that a decision we received already at an earlier

3 stage?

4 MR. TIEGER: So I'm advised, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, I see two English documents and

6 one B/C/S document, as I noted before. Is there one English too much or

7 one B/C/S short? One of the 22nd of June, the other one the 23rd of

8 June.

9 MR. TIEGER: That would not be the document in question. The ERN

10 range for the document that contains the portion to which I'll refer is

11 00882889 through 2938.

12 JUDGE ORIE: That's another one.

13 MR. TIEGER: So I'm sorry about that, Your Honour.


15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

16 MR. TIEGER: And I should also note, I believe that's contained

17 at P64A of the Treanor documents. I don't have the tab number here.

18 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be Prosecution Exhibit

19 number --

20 JUDGE ORIE: We'll first check will it's already in evidence.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that it's in the footnote material,

23 and which is not transported every day into court. 28 binders.


25 Q. Mr. Radic, I'd like to turn your attention to the third page of

Page 7388

1 that document, a decision on the formation of the Crisis Staff of the

2 Autonomous Region of Krajina. And it's a decision adopted, as it

3 indicates at the top of the document, on 5 May 1992. Do you have that

4 document in front of you, sir?

5 A. Yes, I can see it.

6 Q. Now, in addition to indicating the date of formation of the

7 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, it contains a list of

8 the membership of the Crisis Staff.

9 A. Yes. I've seen that. It's on the other side. It's the second

10 page.

11 Q. And that membership includes General Talic?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. From the army, soon to be the VRS?

14 A. I suppose so.

15 Q. And Mr. Zupljanin?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who was the head of the CSB; is that right?

18 A. Correct.

19 Q. And the leading figure, leading representative of the MUP in that

20 region?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. Now, the president of the ARK Crisis Staff was Mr. Brdjanin.

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Now, among other things, Mr. Brdjanin was known for publicly

25 disparaging or denigrating or publicly saying ugly things about Muslims;

Page 7389

1 is that correct?

2 A. Yes. Well, he did not mince his words. He did talk a lot.

3 Q. And you indicated in the course of your testimony in Brdjanin

4 that you had ugly discussions with him about his extreme views against

5 non-Serbs; is that right?

6 A. You should present me what I told you exactly about the ugly

7 discussions, about his extreme views. I would kindly ask you to show me

8 what it was that I said precisely, because I don't like hearing someone

9 else telling me what I said. I'd like to see what I said. And yes, it

10 is true that I did have such discussions with him.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, the witness has answered the question,

12 although not by reference to his earlier testimony, but by just answering

13 your question. I don't know whether we are in any need to compare that,

14 but since the Chamber has not read any Brdjanin transcripts, we have no

15 view on that.

16 MR. TIEGER: Okay.

17 Q. Mr. Radic, before you testified in the Brdjanin case, you were

18 interviewed on two occasions by representatives of the Office of the

19 Prosecutor; is that right?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. One of which took place on 16 July 2001, and the other of which

22 took place on 28 July 2002; correct?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. During the course of the interview on 16 July 2001, did the

25 following exchange take place: Well, I'm asking -- this is -- excuse me,

Page 7390

1 Your Honour. This is on page 26, beginning at line 28.

2 And this was Mr. Grady speaking, Mr. Radic:

3 "Well, I'm asking you: Did you agree with his extreme views

4 against non-Serbs?"

5 And you responded: "I did have problems with him, but I resolved

6 those directly. I would go to the TV. I'd go to the radio and confront

7 him."

8 Mr. Grady: "What discussions did you have with Mr. Brdjanin

9 about his extreme views?"

10 Mr. Radic: "Ugly ones."

11 Mr. Grady: "Okay. Tell me about those."

12 Mr. Radic: "You cannot not begrudge him saying things against

13 mixed marriages. In any case, you have everything written down,

14 everything he said, everything was taped and recorded, and as I said, I

15 had huge problems trying to calm it down in Banja Luka."

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


18 Q. First of all, Mr. Radic, does that refresh your recollection

19 about having ugly discussions with Mr. Brdjanin about his extreme views

20 against non-Serbs?

21 A. Yes, yes. Yes. Thank you.

22 Q. Now, among the things Mr. Brdjanin said, did he say that only

23 2 per cent of Muslims would be allowed to remain in the Krajina?

24 A. He didn't say that. Do you mean he told me or said it publicly?

25 Q. Were you aware of the fact -- were you aware of him saying that

Page 7391

1 publicly?

2 A. I can't remember his having said it publicly and that it was

3 recorded, about this 2 per cent.

4 Q. Do you remember him saying that it was the obligation of Serbs

5 over the next hundred years to wipe their feet from the foul

6 non-Christians who have befouled this soil of ours?

7 A. You know, things like that, there are a lot of things like that

8 for me to be able to remember all the things that Mr. Brdjanin actually

9 said. But quite obviously, if somebody says in the next hundred years,

10 for example, over the next hundred years, then this was rhetoric, which

11 was far from reasonable thinking. So I really can't remember his having

12 used the term "over the next hundred years." But of course he did say

13 lots of things. He said all sorts of things. But could you just tell me

14 where he said "over the next hundred years." Is it recorded anywhere?

15 Is he recorded as saying that, or did a witness say that he had said

16 that? I'd like to see it in black and white.

17 Q. Well, Mr. Radic, I'm not going to make a habit of engaging in a

18 colloquy with you. My obligation is to ask questions and your

19 responsibility is to answer them.

20 However, in this particular case I am going to play a recording

21 of just that.

22 MR. TIEGER: And if we could have marked next V000-0577.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P357.

24 JUDGE ORIE: CD will be 357 and the transcript will be 357A.

25 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour. Just one moment. Sorry.

Page 7392

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've found it.


3 Q. Just to put this particular recording in proper context, let me

4 ask to have played first clip 1.

5 [Videotape played]

6 JUDGE ORIE: The sound is not what I expect it to be.


8 Q. Mr. Radic, let me ask you first if you -- I see you're reading

9 the transcript. Did you have a chance to look at the video as it was

10 being played? I know you didn't hear anything, so you might not have

11 drawn your attention to the video.

12 A. Yes, I see that. Correct.

13 Q. And this was a rally held in the summer of 1994 about the

14 question of ratifying a peace plan?

15 A. I assume so, yes.

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm going to hazard an attempt at clip

17 2 and hope that the video portion is operative for that.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Distinguished Presidency of

20 Republika Srpska, Gentlemen Deputies, People of Krajina, the Citizens of

21 Banja Luka: We have gathered here today, seven days before we state our

22 views at a referendum to hear the arguments and to remember the victims

23 of this and everything that took place before, the war before, and many

24 previous wars, in 1991, 1941, 1914, 198 -- 1875, et cetera. The victims

25 of this particular war are our children. The victims of the previous war

Page 7393

1 are our brothers, sisters, fathers, and mothers. The victims of the

2 previous war are our fathers and grandfathers and the one before that are

3 our grandfathers and great-grandfathers. All of them had just one goal:

4 to live in large numbers and, graced by God, with their own people and

5 nothing more, recognising that other peoples have the same right.

6 "They say we do not want peace. How dare they say that, of a

7 people whose anthem could consist of the following verses: Krajina is a

8 bloody gown. Blood for lunch and blood for dinner. All of us eat bloody

9 mouthfuls, never a peaceful day or rest. We dream of peace but not at

10 any price, because no one ever gave us peace for free."

11 Q. We move on to a later part of the rally, after you've spoken, Mr.

12 Radic.

13 [Videotape played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "There are no Islamic states on land

15 that has been forever Serbian. There is no Muslim people. And the

16 entire world knows this. There are only Serbian people in these parts.

17 There are Serbs who are Orthodox, Serbs who are Catholics, and Serbs who

18 are Muslim. Under 6: We must urgently determine Serbian territories and

19 borders and present them to the Serb people for their acceptance, because

20 there is no state without a set territory and demarcated borders.

21 "Bosnia is an eternally Serbian land. Until the Turks came to

22 these parts, Bosnia was ruled by Serbian kings. The Serbs have expelled

23 the Turks, the Austrians, and Germans, and the Serbian partisans drove

24 Hitler away from this territory. There is no Army of Republika Srpska,

25 the Republika Krajina and Yugoslavia in these parts. Only the Serb army

Page 7394












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7395

1 can exist on this territory. If we want to have a Serbian state -- and

2 we do want to, and must -- then every Serb's imperative, with or without

3 a developed consciousness, must be unification or death, with faith in

4 God and the fatherland."


6 Q. Mr. Radic, was that Mr. Kupresanin?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And he was a member of the ARK Crisis Staff; is that correct?

9 A. I think he was, yes. If it says so, yes, then he was.

10 Q. Let me turn a portion of the remarks by Mr. Brdjanin on that

11 occasion.

12 [Videotape played]

13 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Brothers and sisters, dear people of

14 Krajina and all other patriots who had come to this meeting. We must not

15 succumb to the greatest deceit that we are voting for war and peace. We

16 are voting for the betrayal or rescue of Republika Srpska. Those leftist

17 forces which are offering us coexistence again must know that it is the

18 obligation of Serbs over the next hundred years to wipe their feet from

19 the foul non-Christians who have befouled our country."


21 Q. Mr. Radic, I take it that refreshes your recollection about at

22 least --

23 A. Yes, it does.

24 Q. Do you recall later on in that same rally Mr. Krajisnik either

25 responding to the comments of Mr. Kupresanin or expressing general

Page 7396

1 approval at the remarks of the previous speakers?

2 A. To be quite frank, I don't remember what it was that he said,

3 because it's ten years ago.

4 MR. TIEGER: If we could play the next clip, please, clip 8.

5 [Videotape played]

6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Dear brothers and sisters, my dear

7 people of the Krajina on both side of the Una River: Having heard these

8 wonderful words by my predecessors, I feel great satisfaction at being at

9 this gathering here today, satisfaction at seeing the fruits of our

10 struggle for our homeland in actuality. I see the strength of our

11 people. I see great patriotism and a great love of one's country. If to

12 that we add the proven heroism of the Serbian people of Krajina, then, in

13 Banja Luka and Krajina, we have here something that all the people of the

14 world can be envious of."


16 Q. And if we could play clip 9, another portion of Mr. Krajisnik's

17 remarks.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] We wish to separate, because we

20 cannot live together. I must add something to the discussion and to the

21 address delivered by Mr. Kupresanin. If the Muslims do not wish to be

22 Serbs, if they do not recognise it, then I believe them, because I can

23 only feel sorry for anyone who does not want to be a Serb. Because they

24 don't know how beautiful and glorious it is. That is why we need to

25 separate. It would take a great war to force us to live together again.

Page 7397

1 We don't need war to separate us. We are already separated. The war

2 would be necessary for someone to assemble us together again in the same

3 state. We want those rights, which were attained by all peoples in the

4 former Yugoslavia. We want our own state."


6 Q. Now, Mr. Radic, you've mentioned and looked at some of the

7 remarks by Mr. Brdjanin. Is it correct that he was put in his position

8 by the leadership because he was very obedient?

9 A. Well, I don't know what led the leadership to appoint him. Yes,

10 it had to appoint him. It must have done. Now, what led them to put him

11 in that position would be very difficult for me to say.

12 Q. Again, drawing your attention to the interview of July 16th,

13 2001, Mr. Radic. On that occasion you also discussed Mr. Brdjanin's

14 position as president of the Crisis Staff. And if I can direct your

15 attention and the Court's attention and counsel's attention to page 61 of

16 the 16 July 2001 interview, beginning at line 10. You were asked by Ms.

17 Korner:

18 "Q. So you're saying his power derived from his position of

19 deputy to the Assembly in Pale.

20 You said:

21 "A. Not only that he was a deputy. He was a minister at the

22 same time."

23 Ms. Korner:

24 "Q. But there were many other people equally deputies and

25 equally ministers, Mr. Radic, who were not president of the Crisis Staff,

Page 7398

1 were they?

2 And you said:

3 "A. That was the task he was given. He was very obedient. You

4 couldn't order Erceg or Kupresanin. They're a little different."

5 So it was your position on July 16th, 2001, Mr. Radic, that Mr.

6 Brdjanin's obedience was an important factor in his selection as

7 president of the Crisis Staff.

8 A. Most probably that was how it was. But there were other

9 candidates. Of course, they selected him.

10 Q. And as you said in July of 2001, because he was obedient and

11 others could not be counted on for such obedience; is that right?

12 A. Once again, I repeat: I don't know what led the leadership to

13 give the job to him and not to somebody else, somebody else in the Crisis

14 Staff, presidents of the crisis staffs and so on. Because the deputies

15 had to be in the Crisis Staff.

16 But why was he selected as president? That's a question that I

17 find difficult to answer.

18 Q. But you did not find it so difficult in July of 2001 that you

19 were --

20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, this witness is a Prosecution witness.

21 Once Mr. Tieger has had a couple of goes at asking him the question, he

22 really ought, with respect, to move on then. This is not a Defence

23 witness for Mr. Tieger to cross-examine.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

25 MR. TIEGER: Well, as the Court is aware -- first of all, let me

Page 7399

1 say that I agree, as a general matter, that there are limits to any

2 examination. As a general principle for this witness and similar

3 witnesses, I think the Court is aware that the Prosecution rejects the

4 formalistic distinction between a Prosecution witness and a Defence

5 witness in a case where there is a witness who is so entrenched in the

6 events and who -- well, in the case of an insider witness.

7 And so I will -- I'm prepared to move on, but not because of the

8 distinction that Mr. Stewart cites, and I think it's important that at

9 this juncture we note that the Prosecution seeks appropriate latitude in

10 addressing the issues raised by such witnesses.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I would have to reread your submission

12 in this respect, but I remember that you explained the position of the

13 OTP in this respect. But isn't it true that it also said that you would

14 then apply for the Court's consent? It was not presented, as far as I

15 remember, as something that would slowly slip in, but that it was

16 something you considered that might be necessary. Or has the point come

17 that you ask approval for this approach?

18 MR. TIEGER: Well, first of all, I think it wasn't -- I think the

19 Prosecution indicated that it would proceed with the examination as

20 appropriately as possible under the circumstances. I think we've done

21 so. I'm not asking at this point for leave to go beyond the questions

22 I've just asked. That may be necessary. But I think, as a general

23 matter, we've --

24 JUDGE ORIE: You've clearly indicated that the situation is not

25 the usual situation in respect of Prosecution witnesses. But I do

Page 7400

1 understand that you now intend to proceed. So at this moment there's no

2 urgent matter to be decided. Please proceed.

3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Mr. Radic, is it also the case that you indicated during your

5 previous testimony that Mr. Brdjanin had assisted individual Muslims and

6 Croats in private, but that if he had publicly stated any of the things

7 he had done for individual Muslims and Croats, he would probably have

8 been removed from his position?

9 A. Yes, that's precisely it. And all those who helped had to do

10 that without other people learning about it, just like at the present

11 time. Those who were helped, who were assisted, don't dare say that they

12 were assisted because of their own people.

13 Q. And is it correct that public acknowledgment of such assistance

14 by a Serb, in a leadership position like Mr. Brdjanin's, to non-Serbs

15 would not only have been problematic for his position but, in fact, would

16 have been dangerous?

17 A. Well, at all events they wouldn't praise him for doing it. Now,

18 what would actually happen to someone like that, I can't say. But one

19 thing is certain: He would be left without his job, without his post.

20 Q. And have you stated in the past, and specifically in the Brdjanin

21 case, that it would not have been healthy to behave in such a way?

22 A. You mean to admit that he helped somebody, to acknowledge it?

23 Q. Correct.

24 A. No, it wouldn't have been healthy for that person, for the person

25 in question.

Page 7401

1 Q. Now, with respect to the ARK Crisis Staff, did they -- did that

2 Crisis Staff receive instructions from above, instructions from Pale?

3 A. It's difficult for me to answer that question. Most probably

4 there had to have been some instructions, because it's difficult to

5 imagine that Brdjanin himself would have made any decisions on his own.

6 Although there were such decisions taken by him personally, alone. But

7 there were also some decisions that were signed but not signed in his own

8 hand.

9 Q. Now, when you testified previously in the Brdjanin case, Mr.

10 Radic, do you recall being asked the following question and giving the

11 following answer at page 22123, lines 3 through 8. Question by Ms.

12 Korner:

13 "Q. All right. The regional authorities got their instructions,

14 is this right? And we will look what you said in interview in a moment.

15 But is this right: They got their instructions from the authorities in

16 Pale?"

17 And your answer:

18 "A. Surely they must have obeyed the instructions that were

19 coming from the republican government. That's for sure."

20 Was that a correct response, Mr. Radic?

21 A. Correct. They had to receive instructions from someone about

22 what they were supposed to do.

23 Q. And that someone was the republican authorities in Pale; correct?

24 A. Someone from a higher level, naturally. He could not have worked

25 on his own initiative; he had to receive instructions about what he was

Page 7402

1 supposed to do. But again, I have to say that some things were done

2 without the knowledge of the people from the top. That's the transcript

3 that you had occasion to see, the discussion between Mr. Karadzic and

4 Brdjanin on the issue of the dismissal of managers.

5 Q. And you're referring to the intercepted telephone conversation of

6 November 1991? That's you nodding your head yes; is that right? Just an

7 oral answer.

8 A. That was the cause of the conflict, and the conflict was actually

9 solved by Mr. Karadzic arriving in Banja Luka and telling them that they

10 were not allowed to do this. Therefore, someone must have done this

11 without his knowledge.

12 Q. And the conversation in November 1991, just for clarification, is

13 the one in which Dr. Karadzic and Dr. Vukic express concern about the

14 fact that Mr. Brdjanin was talking about something that he should just be

15 doing; isn't that right?

16 A. There was another point that you missed here, which was the issue

17 of forming one Krajina out of two Krajinas. This was another point

18 there, but President Karadzic simply interrupted this. He actually

19 prevented it, because it was an irrational move that could not meet with

20 the approval, the understanding of the international community.

21 Q. I think we've heard evidence regarding that issue before, Mr.

22 Radic, but thank you.

23 Now, in addition to receiving and obeying instructions coming

24 from the republican government, did the Crisis Staff pass on instructions

25 to the municipal level of authorities?

Page 7403

1 A. Yes. Some of them implemented them; others didn't.

2 Q. So the ARK Crisis Staff didn't create anything; they just

3 forwarded what they received from a higher level.

4 A. I didn't say this. That's not what I said. They did -- it did

5 produce something. I didn't say that it merely forwarded what had been

6 sent to it.

7 Q. Well, I wasn't trying to paraphrase you on my own; I was actually

8 quoting something you said on -- during the course of your Brdjanin

9 testimony. And directing the Court and counsel's attention to page

10 22290, lines 18 through 24. It was again during the course of

11 questioning by Ms. Korner. You were asked:

12 "Q. Right. Now in respect of the decision that were -- we've

13 seen from the regional Crisis Staff forwarded from -- to municipal,

14 either SJBs or the municipal crisis staffs, were those instructions

15 dreamed up by the region on its own or were they as a result of

16 instructions coming from Pale?"

17 And your answer was:

18 "A. As I've already said, the crisis staffs did not create

19 anything. They just forwarded what they received from a higher level."

20 A. For the most part, that was true. However, there were decisions,

21 as I've said, that they had to withdraw later on, when pressed by those

22 from above, like, for instance, the removals of managers. All those who

23 were not members of the SDS, even if they are Serb, were supposed to be

24 dismissed from their positions. However, Karadzic prevented this because

25 this was not -- he put a stop to this because this was not an instruction

Page 7404

1 that originated from Republika Srpska.

2 Q. Okay. And just to clarify: You're distinguishing efforts to

3 remove or dismiss those who were non-SDS from efforts to dismiss

4 non-Serbs or those considered disloyal to the Serbian Republic?

5 A. I'm not trying to make this effort. I'm simply saying that there

6 were some decisions that had not been received from the republican level

7 of Republika Srpska. And in the documents that you have, you will see

8 that Bosniaks, many of them kept their managerial positions. This was

9 something that was put to me later on, that was taken against me, was

10 held against me, and this is something that you could also find in the

11 intercepted conversations that you have of me being in the capacity of a

12 member of the Crisis Staff.

13 Q. Is it correct that local, municipal Crisis Staff presidents

14 regularly reported to the ARK Crisis Staff to give situation reports on

15 events within their area of responsibility?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And with respect to some of the orders of the ARK that were

18 communicated to the municipality crisis staffs, let me direct your

19 attention and the Court's attention to a few documents. First of all, if

20 we could have marked as the next exhibit, and I think this time it may be

21 the one you already have, Your Honour, the order of 22 June 1992, which

22 is 00916505 through 6506.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P358.


25 Q. I understand you're somewhat familiar with this document, Mr.

Page 7405

1 Radic, from your previous testimony, but let me direct your attention to

2 a couple of --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- points quickly. First of all, the date of the decision is

5 22 June 1992. And it states under "Decision," "Only personnel of Serbian

6 ethnicity may hold executive posts, posts are the information flow is

7 possible and then /posts involving/ the protection of socially-owned

8 property, that is, all posts of importance for the functioning of

9 economic entities." And then it goes on.

10 And I also want to direct your attention because we'll refer to

11 it again to the number of the order shown right below the heading, which

12 is 03-531/92.

13 A. Which number are you referring to? You mean the number on this

14 document?

15 Q. That's correct. The number indicated immediately below the

16 heading, "Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Krajina Autonomous

17 Region, Crisis Staff."

18 A. Yes. 531/92. Yes.

19 Q. Let me next turn your attention to two other documents. First,

20 our exhibit next in order, which is --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you said when you mentioned the ERN

22 numbers 505 up through 506, but I have a translation -- an original only

23 of 505, it seems, and not of 506. Or do I have an incomplete copy?

24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it seems to us that 506 is a different

25 document altogether.

Page 7406

1 JUDGE ORIE: It's a different document, but since Mr. Tieger now

2 mentioned both pages... Mr. Tieger --

3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if you look at my copy or if I could look at

5 your copy, so that we -- I have -- first of all, I have got three pages,

6 two in English and one in B/C/S.

7 MR. TIEGER: Let me try to address the problem in what I think is

8 the simplest possible manner. If we just limit the exhibit to the single

9 page, 6505.



12 Q. Mr. Radic, in that connection, if I could direct your attention

13 to the next exhibit which we'll ask to have marked in order. That's a

14 document emanating from the Petrovac Municipal Assembly Crisis Staff

15 dated 25 June 1992.



18 Q. Looking at Prosecution Exhibit P359, is it correct, Mr. Radic,

19 that this is a document from the Petrovac Crisis Staff referring to the

20 previous document, that is, the June 22nd order of the ARK Crisis Staff,

21 and informing the ARK Crisis Staff that, pursuant to its decision, the

22 following steps, enumerated in the document, by Petrovac have been taken?

23 A. Yes, only under one of the items here it says that some of the

24 people were removed at an earlier date, I think it's 1-2-3-4, where they

25 say that they have been dismissed earlier on, which means that this was

Page 7407












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7408

1 done pursuant not to this decision but to their own decisions.

2 Although I have to comment on this particular document by saying

3 something I said already before, that it does not bear Mr. Brdjanin's

4 signature. The signature seems to be that of his secretary.

5 Q. And while you're correct that the Petrovac document indicates

6 that some --

7 A. Not from Petrovac.

8 Q. I'm not referring to that part of your testimony, Mr. Radic. I'm

9 actually referring to your comment about one of the items in the Petrovac

10 document. You indicated that that document indicated that some Muslims

11 were sacked before the order. I just wanted to point your attention to

12 the sentence thereafter, which states: "The remaining employees have

13 been sacked now, with the exception of one employee who was due to

14 complete his tasks but will be sacked after that."

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And if I could next direct your attention to Prosecution's next

17 in order, a 13 July 1992 document bearing the ERN P005-4023.

18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P360.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I misstated the ERN, which I think is

20 correctly stated as P000-7104 through 7108, at least in the ERN original.

21 Q. Mr. Radic, if I could direct your attention to the first lengthy

22 enumerated item under the heading "The following conclusions can be drawn

23 from the information submitted." Looking at the very last item bulleted

24 there, which I believe will be found on the second page, which states:

25 "The decision of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of

Page 7409

1 Krajina in Banja Luka, Number 03531/92, dated 22 June 1992, on filling

2 vacant management and other posts valid for the running of the economy,

3 was implemented in the public security station."

4 That's another indication of a municipal Crisis Staff response to

5 an ARK directive; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Mr. Radic, in the Krajina, Muslims were dismissed from the

8 police, from postal services, from hospitals, even music teachers lost

9 their positions; is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And this -- these dismissals were sometimes referred to as, by

12 euphemistic titles, such as balancing or differentiation of personnel; is

13 that right?

14 A. That is correct. Particularly when we're talking about the music

15 teachers. Because they did not have any access to any relevant

16 information, unlike, of course, those employed at the postal offices or

17 the police.

18 Q. And these balancing orders, or differentiation of personnel

19 orders, these dismissals, came from Pale, is that right, came from the

20 very top?

21 A. I don't know if this term of differentiation of personnel was

22 used or not, but -- although I know -- I don't know where it originates

23 from, that is, but I know that it was indeed applied at the municipal

24 level, under such a name.

25 Q. And with that clarification, is it correct that the orders for

Page 7410

1 that to be applied at the municipal level came from the very top, came

2 from Pale?

3 A. They did not. They did not come from the very top, but from the

4 level immediately superior to us, to the municipality. There were maybe

5 one or two instructions that arrived directly from the top, but not more

6 than that.

7 Q. Mr. Radic, let me direct your attention again to the interview of

8 July 2001, and specifically to page 27. And I'll begin at line 13 of

9 page 27. That was Mr. Grady asking beginning of the questions,

10 "Q. But the fact is that Mr. Brdjanin was a very powerful man,

11 was he not?"

12 And you said:

13 "A. But not as a -- I wanted to tell you about this. I wanted

14 to draw your attention to the fact that power did not come from the

15 Crisis Staff which only lasted a brief period, because many of the

16 decisions he made I simply rejected. The power of these people came from

17 higher authorities, from their authorities as deputies, as ministers and

18 things like that."

19 And Ms. Korner asked you:

20 "Q. I'm sorry. What decisions that he made did you reject?"

21 And you said:

22 "A. I refused to replace directors, managers who were not

23 members of the SDS. And then I had to use the authority of Radovan

24 Karadzic to draw his attention of what was going on here in the field.

25 Of course that was not forgotten and he was not alone. There were others

Page 7411

1 who wanted to do the same. I confronted him when he wanted to replace

2 the dean, and so on. Also, the issue of the balancing of personnel. But

3 that balancing of personnel did not come from his head. That came from

4 the very top."

5 A. It was the dean -- the rector of the university and not the dean

6 of a faculty that was in question there, and I really confronted him on

7 that issue. What is at point here is that everyone wants to say that

8 Brdjanin had a lot of clout. However, his decisions were not really that

9 much adhered to, at least not by those who had their own head to think

10 with. And that was the reason why I confronted him, drawing his

11 attention to the fact that nobody can remove a rector that the university

12 is an independent institution, and those who know who a rector is, what

13 sort of a person he is, would never have done that. And that's the gist

14 of the matter. That's why I entered into a conflict with him.

15 Q. So you wanted to point out two things to Ms. Korner in the July

16 2001 interview: First, that you confronted Mr. Brdjanin about the issue

17 surrounding the possible termination or replacement of the rector; and

18 two, that in any event, the balancing of personnel did not come from Mr.

19 Brdjanin's head; it came "from the very top." Is that correct?

20 A. I find it difficult now to say whether he received it from the

21 top or not. But I know that this term "balancing of personnel" was

22 something that was being accepted and applied. Perhaps a good starting

23 point for this was the fact that the same thing happened on the Croat and

24 Bosniak sides as well. So that's why they wanted perhaps to even things

25 out, also with the policies in Republika Srpska. Even today, after all

Page 7412

1 the things that happened in Sarajevo, you have very few Serbs holding

2 positions.

3 Q. That may be a good starting point, Mr. Radic, and so let's

4 continue with some of the other information you provided during the

5 course of that interview to the Office of the Prosecutor. If I can

6 direct your attention and the Court's attention and counsel's attention

7 to page 43, lines 17 through 21. And this is you speaking, Mr. Radic:

8 "The balancing instructions came from Pale, the balancing of

9 personnel, which was then supposed to be implemented on the field. And

10 it was a reflection of what was happening in other parts of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And when it came from the higher authority here,

12 then that's when the implementation began."

13 A. That's what I said a moment ago. It only started happening in

14 our part of the field as soon as it happened on the other sides as well.

15 And probably then someone said: You should start doing the same thing.

16 Because in the post offices, in the police in Republika Srpska, there

17 were non-Serb employees, whereas on the other side, everything was

18 actually cleansed of Serbs: the police, the judiciary, et cetera.

19 Q. During the course of that interview, you also pointed out two

20 additional reasons, Mr. Radic, why you knew and concluded that the

21 balancing instructions had come from Pale. The first was the fact that

22 balancing was implemented all over RS, that you could not have a

23 situation where it was just -- you didn't have a situation where it was

24 just implemented in one place. Is that correct?

25 A. Not only in the entire Republika Srpska. It was done in the

Page 7413

1 entire Bosnia and Herzegovina. It took place first in Herceg-Bosna and

2 in other parts of Bosnia where that was under Bosniak control, and even

3 in Croatia, if you will, before it started happening in Republika Srpska.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, may I just interrupt you. Is it your

5 answer that you say this was done in the whole of Bosnia-Herzegovina on

6 the instructions of Pale? Because that was the question.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, but that Pale went ahead and

8 did that because it was something that was sent out to the whole of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because it happened in the whole of

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please -- yes.

14 MR. STEWART: In fairness to the witness, it was quite a long

15 question and it started off with "balancing instructions coming from

16 Pale," but then the second sentence, the question said: "Two additional

17 reasons why you knew the balancing instructions had come from Pale."

18 Then the first was the fact balancing was implemented. The trouble is

19 when the question gets fairly long it's not surprising that the witness

20 might understand it in a slightly different way.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm trying to see whether clarity, whether we can

22 seek some clarification.

23 Mr. Tieger, the witness seems to not have fully understood the

24 question that has been clarified, I would say, and you got some comment

25 that the question was very long, which is, as such, true. Whether it

Page 7414

1 makes the question not comprehensible any more is a different matter, but

2 the shorter the better. Please proceed.

3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. With that guidance, Mr. Radic, I will try to break down the

5 question.

6 First of all, I indicated that I would direct your attention to

7 portions of the interview in which you indicated two different reasons

8 why you knew and concluded that the balancing instructions came from

9 Pale. Let me focus on the first one.

10 Did you indicate in July of 2001 that one of the reasons why you

11 knew they had come from Pale was that the instructions were implemented

12 all over Republika Srpska?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And did you indicate that an additional reason why you knew that

15 was because there was a document which was brought to the Crisis Staff in

16 order to be implemented, a document from Pale referring to the balancing?

17 A. I don't know, because I didn't see the document. Quite possibly,

18 I said that a document existed; however, I never saw such a document

19 about this balancing business.

20 Q. If I understood your responses in the interview correctly, and

21 please correct me if I'm mistaken and I'll be more than happy to direct

22 you to particular portions, I think you indicated indeed that you had not

23 seen the document, but that someone brought the document to the Crisis

24 Staff saying that he had such a document and it needed -- from Pale and

25 it needed to be implemented. Is that essentially right?

Page 7415

1 A. Yes, that's right. Somebody said that a document had been

2 brought from Pale and that it had to be implemented. I personally did

3 not see that document. Somebody said. And that's what I wish to repeat.

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm just missing

5 it, but I'm not finding in the transcript of the evidence in the previous

6 case the bit of Mr. Tieger's question that says, "I think you indicated

7 indeed you had not seen the document but someone brought the document to

8 the Crisis Staff saying that he had such a document and it needed to be

9 implemented." This may be just be me missing the passage, but at the

10 moment I don't have that reference.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, if there's any doubt, please quote

12 literally and indicate the exact source.

13 MR. TIEGER: Well, first of all, is it helpful if I indicate I'm

14 referring to the July interview and not to the --

15 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry. I beg your pardon. That was a slip of

16 the tongue. I realised it was that. When I said transcript, in fact I'm

17 looking at the July interview, yes. And my question applies to that.

18 Yes, 16th of July. One is July 01 and one is July 02. So this is 16

19 July 2001.

20 MR. TIEGER: Well, first of all, I think the witness has

21 responded, but I will be happy to read out the portion of the transcript

22 that prompted the question.

23 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If you have a page number.

25 MR. STEWART: It's a different point, Your Honour. The witness

Page 7416

1 has responded. The point is that Mr. Tieger's question purported to

2 include a quite detailed summary, whether it was a quote or intended as a

3 detailed pair paraphrase, and I'm asking where --

4 JUDGE ORIE: If you could first indicate the page number, Mr.

5 Tieger, so Mr. Stewart is in a position to find the right place where you

6 referred to and then ...

7 MR. TIEGER: Page 43 and 44, Your Honour. And in addition, if I

8 could direct counsel's intention to page 22128 of the Brdjanin testimony.

9 So I'll be happy to read both of those. Let me begin with the testimony

10 and see if that resolves the issue.

11 MR. STEWART: We'll see, shall we.

12 MR. TIEGER: And this begins at line 14.

13 Question by Ms. Korner:

14 "Q. Can I just ask you while we're on this page, what did you

15 mean by your answer: 'It was seen by the person who brought it to the

16 Crisis Staff to be adopted'? Do you mean the person who brought it to

17 the Crisis Staff had seen the original instructions from Pale?

18 "A. I assume so.

19 "Q. Yes, but this is what you were telling us. Who was the

20 person who told you that the instructions came from Pale?

21 "A. I can't remember who told me about this. I know that I was

22 told that differentiation of staff should be implemented and this should

23 be implemented throughout Republika Srpska -- not just in Republika

24 Srpska, but also in Sarajevo, Zagreb, et cetera. As a result it was

25 necessary to implement this in our area too."

Page 7417

1 I should finish that.

2 "There must have been a document because I don't think someone in

3 the Crisis Staff would have said let's differentiate the staff. I don't

4 think he would have done this on his own initiative. And this is the

5 euphemism I have referred to."

6 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, my question was directed to

7 this, and my suggestion now is that in fact that passage that Mr. Tieger

8 has read out was not accurately expressed by him in the question he put

9 to the witness, and that Your Honour's suggestion a few minutes ago that

10 if there is any doubt or -- I'm paraphrasing Your Honour now - risk of

11 difficulty, that it would be safer to quote directly from the material

12 rather than to attempt --

13 JUDGE ORIE: By the line that someone brought it to the Crisis

14 Staff? Is that --

15 MR. STEWART: And said -- Ms. Cmeric will bring it back for me

16 here.

17 MR. TIEGER: I indicated I was going to read two different

18 portions, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you still have to read the second portion.

20 MR. TIEGER: Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's first listen, then, to the second

22 portion.

23 MR. TIEGER: Okay. This is page 43, beginning at line 17.

24 "The balancing instructions came from Pale, the balancing of

25 personnel, which was then supposed to be implemented on the field. And

Page 7418

1 it was a reflection on what was happening in the other parts of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And when it came from the higher authority here,

3 then that's when the implementation began.

4 "Q. How do you know that the instructions to balance, as you put

5 it, the workers whatever came from Pale?"

6 Mr. Radic:

7 "A. There is a document."

8 Question by Ms. Korner:

9 "Q. Right."

10 "A. Which you saw. It was seen by the person who brought it to

11 the Crisis Staff to be adopted. And then you need to know that that was

12 not implemented only here, it was implemented in the whole of the

13 Republika Srpska so you could not have a situation where this Crisis

14 Staff would send this to Trebinje."

15 JUDGE ORIE: It's not literally the same, but the --

16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's not a question of not literally

17 the same. It simply isn't close enough the same to be fair to the -- I'm

18 not suggesting it's done deliberately. It demonstrates the importance of

19 keeping very closely. After all, this whole line of examination which

20 does involve my not objecting to the Prosecution already straying over

21 the conventional boundaries in relation to the examination of their own

22 witnesses has involved a certain amount of textual analysis in the course

23 of question and answer of the witness. And given that that is the whole

24 basis of the questioning, it is essential to be careful about the

25 summaries and paraphrases of the material in question.

Page 7419

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it clear to everyone now what the

2 difference is? I do understand that document was brought, but whether

3 someone said something at that moment or that he brought it in order to,

4 without perhaps saying so, that's the issue.

5 Mr. Tieger. You will have understood the issue, and let's see

6 how far we come. But you're looking at the clock, I wouldn't say

7 desperately, but --

8 MR. TIEGER: The question is, if we're going to break now, I'm

9 actually going to take a closer look at the transcript and see if this

10 issue needs further clarification. Otherwise I'm inclined to move on to

11 the --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Next subject. Then we'll adjourn until 10 minutes

13 to 6.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 5.27 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 5.56 p.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm not going to make any point out of

17 it at this moment, the 21st of October submission ends for the reasons

18 set out above the Prosecution informs the Trial Chamber of its intention

19 to seek leave." That's different language from -- it's not -- it seems

20 that a kind of practice has developed at this moment, and let's leave it

21 at this. But that's what confused me a bit. Please proceed.

22 MR. TIEGER: I'm grateful, Your Honour. Thank you.

23 Q. Mr. Radic, just to round out the issue we were discussing before

24 the recess: Is it correct that whenever the ARK Crisis Staff wanted to

25 implement anything, they would say that the order came from Pale?

Page 7420












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7421

1 A. Yes. Now, whether that was true or not is a different matter. I

2 can't guarantee that that was actually how it was.

3 Q. Is it also the case that Pale sometimes communicated directly

4 with municipalities?

5 A. On rare occasions. And I'm saying that from the aspects of Banja

6 Luka, which is where I was. Rarely, because there were lines, deputy

7 chains, executive government chains, party chains. But with the

8 presidents of the municipalities on rare occasions.

9 Q. Let me just quote directly what you stated on a previous occasion

10 and ask you if that's accurate. Turning to page 22140 of the Brdjanin

11 testimony. You were asked, beginning at page -- at line 1, extending

12 down to about line 10 or so, you were asked about the chain of command.

13 The question is:

14 "Q. No. Again, I'm not suggesting that it was any different

15 anywhere else but I just want to deal with what happened in the Serbian

16 republic. It was transmitted down the chain of command. That chain of

17 command included the regional, municipal, and local communities; is that

18 right?"

19 "A. Not really. It was not exactly a rule. The regional would

20 sometimes be skipped and then we would receive it directly here at the

21 municipal level."

22 And just to complete your answer:

23 "And then when they were not satisfied with the work of the

24 individual municipalities, and the implementation of individual

25 decisions, then -- I mean, I don't think that the chain was always

Page 7422

1 respected, that it was the top and then us, that they suggested directly

2 to us that something needed to be done."

3 So is that essentially correct, Mr. Radic, that sometimes the

4 regional level was skipped and instructions or orders would be received

5 directly at the municipal level?

6 A. Well, that's what I said in my previous answer, that it happened

7 rarely, on occasion, from time to time, and not as a general rule. And

8 so I said that in the conversation, in the interview.

9 Q. And when the municipalities received an order or instruction

10 directly from the republic level, that's what had to be done by the

11 municipalities; is that right?

12 A. That's right.

13 Q. Now, in some cases, or at least in one case, the municipality had

14 a direct link to the republican level, to Pale; is that correct?

15 A. When necessary, we did, and we used it.

16 Q. And in the case of Prijedor, for example, their deputy, their

17 assembly deputy, had a radio set to regularly report to Pale what was

18 happening in Prijedor; is that right?

19 A. Well, not the deputies. If the municipality didn't have any

20 links to Pale, then it did have radio links. It had to have some sort of

21 connection and link. So yes, there was a case in which somebody did have

22 a radio set link when it came to Prijedor.

23 Q. And that was the deputy Mr. Srdic; is that correct?

24 A. That's what they said. I didn't see him speaking on the radio,

25 but they said that he did have a radio station through which he was able

Page 7423

1 to communicate with Pale.

2 Q. And the context of learning about the radio that Mr. Srdic had

3 was a warning by others to you that you should watch what you say around

4 Mr. Srdic because he was reporting to Pale?

5 A. Well, those were the stories going around, the rumours, that one

6 should be wary of that particular gentleman.

7 Q. Well, in fact, Mr. Radic, those weren't just general rumours;

8 that was information you received from Mr. Srdic's fellow deputies;

9 correct?

10 A. Not only from them. It was going round Prijedor, and I took note

11 of it, and possibly one of the deputies might have said it too. But I

12 don't want to go into that now.

13 Q. Well, you say possibly one of the deputies said it. But you said

14 in a previous interview, the one conducted on July 16th, 2001, that you

15 knew that because his colleagues, his fellow deputies, knew it. Isn't

16 that right?

17 A. Well, if I said that, then that's how it was. So the deputies

18 knew that the gentleman had this, and they conveyed that to me, and I

19 knew about that piece of information.

20 Q. And just for the Court's benefit, I'm referring to page 56 of the

21 July 2001 interview, beginning at line 21. Ms. Korner asks:

22 "Q. How do you know that the deputy for Prijedor had a radio set

23 by which he communicated with Pale?"

24 Mr. Radic said:

25 "A. His colleagues, his fellow deputies know."

Page 7424

1 Question by Ms. Korner:

2 "Q. How do you know?"

3 "A. Because his fellow deputies told me that he is to be very --

4 I should be very careful around him and not talk about anything."

5 And then Mr. Radic goes on to identify the deputy as Mr. Srdic.

6 Mr. Radic, you indicated -- I think we cited a passage from an

7 earlier interview regarding Mr. Brdjanin, and I think you indicated in

8 your previous testimony that Mr. Brdjanin was a powerful man. Is that

9 right?

10 A. I never said he was powerful. He wasn't really powerful. His

11 power was based on upon -- I've already told what it was based on, on the

12 fact that he was a deputy. He was a minister. He was the vice-premier.

13 So his power did not emanate from the fact that he was president of the

14 Crisis Staff and I never considered him to be a powerful man, myself.

15 Q. And I was referring to page 22127 of the -- of your testimony

16 during Brdjanin, at lines 4 through 11, where you were asked:

17 "Q. Yes, I am. And so what you were saying there was that the

18 authority of Mr. Brdjanin and others in the regional Crisis Staff came

19 from their positions as deputies and ministers; is that right?"

20 Your answer was:

21 "A. Yes, the authority of Mr. Brdjanin. The previous question

22 was that it was true to say that Mr. Brdjanin was a very powerful man. I

23 said that his authority wasn't as a result of his being president of the

24 Crisis Staff; it was a result of him having role of minister, et cetera,

25 and that is where he derived his authority from."

Page 7425

1 A. I didn't say anything different from that a moment ago, that the

2 source of his power was -- did not lie in the Crisis Staff, but rather in

3 the functions that he had and performed. So that's it.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, part of your answer was: "I never said

5 he was powerful." In the part just read to you, you say: "It was true

6 to say that Mr. Brdjanin was a very powerful man."

7 That is not exactly the same.

8 A. And, in continuation, Your Honour, I said his power emanated from

9 the functions he held. So that was the sense of his power and where his

10 power lay and was derived from.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But saying: I never said he was a powerful

12 man, and saying: It's true to say that he was powerful. That's totally

13 different. If there are good explanations on where his power came from,

14 whatever, but that is really contradicting each other.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.

17 Q. And on a number of occasions during the course of interview with

18 representatives of the Prosecutor in July 2001, you pointed the same

19 thing out, that the authority in power of Mr. Brdjanin and others was

20 derived from their positions as deputies or ministers. And we point you,

21 for example, to page 60 of the July 2001 transcript, lines 11 through 15,

22 where you say:

23 "A. No. What I claim is one other thing. What I claim is that

24 the authority of the accused, that their authority was not -- they didn't

25 derive their authority from this, this two- or three-month-old

Page 7426

1 institution, quasi-institution of Crisis Staff. Their authorities derive

2 from higher positions, assembly, deputy, ministerial. All of this was

3 just --"

4 And Ms. Korner says:

5 "Q. All right."

6 And that's the point you were trying to make during the course of

7 that interview and also during the course of your testimony; is that

8 correct? I see you nodding, but I just need an oral --

9 A. Yes, that's right.

10 Q. Now, is it correct, Mr. Radic, that the link between the

11 leadership of the country and the people on the ground were the deputies?

12 A. Well, it was logical that if you go to the Assembly, then if they

13 go to the Assembly, then they convey what the Assembly had decided upon,

14 and that they insisted that this should be implemented further down the

15 line, what the Assembly of Republika Srpska had decided.

16 Q. Well, I appreciate that, but the question goes beyond the logic

17 of the situation and what can be concluded logically from that

18 information. But it also goes into what you saw and observed and learned

19 from your own position. And in that respect, let me direct your

20 attention to page 4 of the July 2001 interview, when you were asked about

21 the order on establishing crisis staffs. And the question beginning at

22 line 32 of page 4 was:

23 "And how did that order, how was that order received?"

24 And your answer was: "I couldn't tell you that, because the link

25 between the leadership of the country and the people on the ground were

Page 7427

1 deputies."

2 And you go on to say: "A document just arrived to say that they

3 wanted to know the structure and who exactly was in the Crisis Staff."

4 In addition to the logic that might be applied to this situation,

5 is it correct to say that it was your observation during 1992 that the

6 link between the leadership of the country and the people on the ground

7 were the deputies?

8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that question was asked about -- it's

9 at 18:11:29. The exact question has been asked and he answered it.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And he's now being confronted with a statement

11 he gave and the question is asked again to him.

12 You may proceed, Mr. Tieger.

13 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Mr. Radic.

14 Q. Do you recall the -- if you recall the question, you can just

15 answer.

16 A. Well, it's logical, as I say. Once they come back from the

17 national assembly, it would be logical for them to tell us what was

18 decided upon up above. So in a sense, they were a link between the

19 national assembly on the one hand, and the top leadership on the other,

20 with us down below. I said that last time and I repeat it today. So the

21 deputies were, in actual fact, the people who conveyed to us what was

22 going on and what decisions and conclusions had been made. And amongst

23 others, we have this decision on the formation of the staffs, et cetera,

24 et cetera, where they too had a certain number of seats.

25 JUDGE ORIE: May I just try to find out whether I understood you

Page 7428

1 well. Is your testimony that you said this is what was logic and that's

2 what I saw to happen?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, that's what happened.


5 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.


7 Q. You indicated earlier that whenever members of the ARK Crisis

8 Staff wanted to implement something, they would say it arrived from Pale

9 and it had to be implemented. Is it correct that it would be an Assembly

10 deputy or a minister who would come and say: This is what they've

11 ordered from above, and this is how it will be implemented?

12 A. I wouldn't say it was necessarily a deputy. It could have been

13 anyone else from the political leadership, not just from the ranks of the

14 deputies. Naturally, when they returned, they could, of course, convey

15 to us the decisions as to what needed to be done in the Crisis Staff.

16 Q. So it would have been one of those with contacts with Pale, a

17 deputy, a minister, or someone else in the leadership, who would come and

18 say: This is what they've ordered from above, and this is how it has to

19 be implemented.

20 A. I wouldn't say that they would necessarily verbally convey it to

21 us. There would be a document that would be brought to the Crisis Staff,

22 although it is possible that sometimes they used -- by virtue of their

23 position, they conveyed to us a piece of information that did not

24 necessarily have to originate from above.

25 Q. Let me direct your attention - maybe this will help - to another

Page 7429

1 portion of the interview of July 2001. That's on page 44. And I'll

2 begin at line 14. Question by Ms. Korner:

3 "So did you see the order from Pale before the meeting or after

4 the meeting?"

5 Your answer: "Whenever they wanted to implement something, they

6 would say that it had arrived from Pale and that had it to be

7 implemented, always."

8 Then question: "Yes, but who would say that? Was it Brdjanin?

9 Was it Kupresanin?"

10 Your answer: "I couldn't tell you for sure, but it would have

11 been one of those who had contacts with Pale, an Assembly deputy or

12 minister, and they would always come and say: This is what the --

13 they've ordered from above, and this is how it will be implemented."

14 That's right, isn't it? That's what you said, and that's

15 correct?

16 A. Correct.

17 Q. Now, the deputies actually considered themselves more important

18 than the people at the municipal level; isn't that right? And that's how

19 they thought of themselves and that's how they behaved.

20 A. Well, they were deputies to the People's Assembly, and therefore,

21 in terms of hierarchy, they were superior to us.

22 Q. Well, they were not only superior; they were virtually

23 untouchable, weren't they? Isn't that something you said before, and

24 didn't you call them "the Russian Deputates"?

25 A. Well, sometimes they did behave this way. They would go to a

Page 7430

1 meeting, come back, and convey to us something that had been said up

2 above. Whether it actually had been said or not, we did not know. But

3 that was the way they behaved.

4 Q. In fact, Mr. Radic, when you were asked during your July

5 interview who had the power to direct events in Banja Luka and the

6 surrounding area, you said:

7 "The police, the military, and the deputies had a large

8 influence."

9 Isn't that right? And let me direct your attention to that

10 specific site. Page 32, beginning at line 21. Ms. Korner:

11 "Right. Who do you say did have the power to direct what

12 happened in the area of the ARK in the various -- well, first of all let

13 us take it separately. I'm sorry. Banja Luka."

14 Your answer: "The police did, the military did. Deputies had

15 very large influence. Here in the municipality, we have the authority to

16 take care of the local economy, of everything that was in the municipal

17 Statute which had not been changed since before the war."

18 That's correct, is it not, that the deputies had a very large

19 impact and influence over what happened in the Krajina?

20 A. Let us take the order that I used, the police and the military.

21 You need not emphasise why they had influence at a time of war. But

22 equally so, the deputies brought over information decided upon at the

23 Assembly, and that's why they had the power. Even before the war, during

24 the war, and now after the war, they have power locally, just as they did

25 before the war, before the 1990s. They had the authority to deal with

Page 7431

1 the local issues.

2 Q. So at least part of their power derived from the fact that they

3 were receiving the instructions of the leadership and conveying it to the

4 ground.

5 A. They would come to us with the freshest of information from the

6 meetings of the -- from the sessions of the Assembly, from government

7 meetings where decision were taken, telling us whatever took place at the

8 level of the government. Because the presidents of the municipalities

9 had nothing to do with the Assembly level unless they had some specific

10 matters that they had to deal with directly with that level of power.

11 Q. So they would -- is it correct that they would bring this

12 information, they would say it had to be implemented, and they acted in a

13 fashion that indicated that they expected it to be implemented?

14 A. They could expect so, and in some places these decisions were

15 indeed implemented. But in those places where people in the leadership

16 had their own minds, they wouldn't implement them. Of course, the

17 Assembly level was of decisive importance. It is also true that

18 sometimes they did behave in such a stuck-up way; that is true.

19 Q. And part of the reason that the deputies had such power locally

20 and acted in such a fashion is because, in your words, they had a

21 masterful leader in Mr. Krajisnik?

22 A. He was their president, the president of the National Assembly.

23 It doesn't go to say that whatever decisions were taken locally

24 originated from the leaders. Of course, the president of the National

25 Assembly was their superior.

Page 7432

1 Q. Well, Mr. Radic, I'm going to direct your attention to another

2 exchange in the July 2001 interview, one that I'd suggest to you suggests

3 that your view about that issue was -- had something more -- was dealt

4 with something more than his position as president only. And let me

5 direct your attention to page 62, beginning at line 26:

6 "Of course we were at a lower level for them, the municipal

7 level, and that's how they acted. You'll see -- I don't know who of the

8 deputies you summoned, but you'll see even today they think they are

9 something better than others because they were elected the one time in

10 1990, and they continued to rule until 1996. And if they have a

11 masterful leader like Krajisnik, then --

12 Question: "Who was a masterful leader?"

13 And your answer is: "The deputies.

14 Question: "Like Krajisnik?

15 You say: "He was their president. Again, I repeat: You're just

16 wasting your time with the crisis staffs. Everything was planned up from

17 above."

18 Mr. Radic, weren't you indicating in that answer that the focus

19 should be on the instructions that were being given from above, including

20 Mr. Krajisnik?

21 A. Let me tell you: We are levelling up now the leaders and the

22 presidents of the Assembly. It is true that he was a president of the

23 Assembly, but I've never said that whatever decisions were taken locally

24 originated from him. Because he had the rules of procedure, he had the

25 statute, and he had to act within the legal remit. I have a document

Page 7433












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 7434

1 that was adopted by the National Assembly and signed by Krajisnik which

2 goes beyond the remit of the statute and the rules of procedure. So I

3 never said that he was the leader, the mastermind behind their acts.

4 Q. Well, it's interesting to hear you say that, Mr. Radic, because

5 didn't you also say that Mr. Krajisnik was a member of the Presidency?

6 A. That's common knowledge. That's no secret. It was Mr.

7 Krajisnik, Mr. Koljevic, Ms. Plavsic, and Mr. Karadzic. They were the

8 Presidency. There are no new matters to be discovered there.

9 Q. And it was the Presidency that could exert influence over the

10 police and the army; correct?

11 A. Now, what it was that the Presidency could do, it is difficult

12 for me to answer that one, because I am not familiar with the work of the

13 Presidency. Most probably, they had to have influence over the military

14 as the supreme body. Now, who from among the members of the Presidency

15 had the role of coordinating the army is something I cannot tell you.

16 That is something you need to consult the rules of procedure of the

17 Presidency, where it states the roles of different members. The same is

18 true for the police.

19 Q. Mr. Radic, let me move on to a slightly different topic and ask

20 to have marked next in order B09-8148 through 8153.

21 MR. STEWART: Yes Excuse me, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.

23 MR. STEWART: Yes. Your Honour, the reference is in an answer

24 given a few moments ago. It's line 15. It's 18:27:33. It's page 69,

25 line 15. The transcript says: "I have a document that was adopted by

Page 7435

1 the National Assembly and signed by Krajisnik." And Ms. Cmeric informs

2 me that the original Serbian actually had the sense of: I would like to

3 see a document. Which is clearly very different.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was your testimony that you would like to see

5 any document in which Mr. Krajisnik would go beyond what was in

6 accordance with the procedure?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.

8 That's what I wanted to say, what I actually said.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, of course I noticed that logic is not

10 the answer to everything, but that answer has some logic in this context.

11 MR. TIEGER: I understand that, Your Honour. Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.



15 Q. Mr. Radic, I know you had an opportunity to see this document

16 during the course of your testimony in the Brdjanin case. Do you need

17 any further time to review it?

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, the Registrar informs me that this

20 document was already Exhibit Number P209, so we leave it.

21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. Let me just direct your attention to one part of that document

23 quickly, Mr. Radic, and that is the list of non-Serbs from Prijedor.

24 42.000 Muslims and 2.000 Croats are listed as, in the language of the

25 document, "moved out from Prijedor." In fact, this document indicates

Page 7436

1 44.000 non-Serbs who had been expelled from Prijedor by 1993; is that

2 right?

3 A. That's what it says. This was compiled by the Ministry of the

4 Interior, Security Services Centre.

5 Q. And that's consistent with your own understanding and

6 observations of what happened in Prijedor in 1992 and 1993; isn't that

7 right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the same is true for the remainder of the document as well.

10 That's consistent with your observations at the time?

11 A. Which observations are you referring to?

12 Q. Well, for one thing, you saw some of those people deported,

13 didn't you, deported in cattle cars?

14 A. I've seen that.

15 Q. Now, in addition to the expulsion of these non-Serbs from

16 Prijedor and Kljuc and Sanski Most listed in the document, there were

17 also large-scale murders of non-Serbs during operations conducted by Serb

18 police and army forces; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And in addition, civilian non-Serbs were put in camps; and you

21 yourself had an opportunity to visit one such camp; is that right?

22 A. Yes, I did.

23 Q. And that was a visit to Omarska in July of 1992; correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Omarska was run by the police and the military; is that right?

Page 7437

1 A. Mostly by the police, yes.

2 Q. But you received permission from -- or you sought and received

3 permission from the military to visit Omarska?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And there you saw civilians confined in conditions that were

6 clearly inappropriate for human beings; is that correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Now, even before your visit, you had some information about the

9 number of people held there and the conditions, because quite a number of

10 Muslims from Prijedor had informed you of that; is that right?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. Indeed, even Serbs who lived in Omarska asked -- or some Serbs

13 who lived in Omarska asked the authorities in Banja Luka to transfer

14 Muslims from Omarska camp; is that correct?

15 A. They could not ask anything from the Banja Luka authorities

16 because it did not lie within their authority. It lay within the

17 authority of Prijedor, and it could have been done both by the police and

18 the military, and the Banja Luka authorities did their best under the

19 circumstances. Because the Banja Luka authorities had no authority

20 whatsoever in Prijedor.

21 Q. Okay. The point of my question, in part, was that at least some

22 Serbs came to the Banja Luka authorities to report what was happening in

23 Omarska and seek some kind of assistance for the Muslims there.

24 A. I'll tell you again: They did not seek that from the Banja Luka

25 authorities but from the authorities that were in Banja Luka, to see what

Page 7438

1 they could do about it. It doesn't mean that these were the -- that this

2 was the Assembly of Banja Luka. But there were Muslims who had relatives

3 in Prijedor who came to see us to inquire of their relatives there, and

4 these were the people that I knew both in Prijedor and in Banja Luka.

5 Q. Now, when you visited Omarska, in addition to seeing the

6 conditions that prevailed there, was it also the case that prisoners were

7 abused before your very eyes by being forced to sing Serbian national

8 songs?

9 A. That they did, but they were not harassed physically. I held it

10 against them because I thought it amounted to psychological abuse for the

11 people to sing the kind of songs they are not in favour of.

12 Q. You recognise that for what it was, an effort to humiliate these

13 prisoners; correct?

14 A. There is nothing for me to recognise there. I've told you that I

15 myself thought that it amounted to psychological and mental abuse and I

16 thought that an end must be put to it.

17 Q. Now, among the others in your delegation was Mr. Zupljanin,

18 correct, the head of the CSB?

19 A. Correct, because the police was involved in interrogations there,

20 and we went over there to see how it went along.

21 Q. Did you express your disapproval to Mr. Zupljanin?

22 A. I expressed my disapproval to all of them, particularly to the

23 Prijedor leadership, and I told them that they must look for an adequate

24 solution for these people as soon as possible. Upon my return to Banja

25 Luka, I came to the head of the Red Cross office to tell them that they

Page 7439

1 should do everything in their power to alleviate the situation of the

2 people. It was Mr. Minik [phoen]. He was the chief of the Red Cross in

3 Banja Luka.

4 Q. Now, you didn't specifically ask Mr. Zupljanin to do something

5 about it because he had his own hierarchy; is that right?

6 A. I could only apply to the police, just as one could before the

7 war, during the war, and after the war. You could only apply to the

8 police to do something, ask them to do something, but they were never

9 under the local authority. Because the you have the republican Ministry

10 of the Interior and then the lines down to the field. The local

11 authorities have nothing to do with the police. You could deduce that

12 from the statutes as of before the war, during the war, and after the

13 war.

14 Q. And everything that was done in Krajina by the police had to be

15 verified in Pale by the Minister of the Interior; is that right?

16 A. I suppose so, because he was the one who in fact coordinated

17 everything. I suppose so, because there was nobody else in the

18 government who was in charge of the police and the Ministry of the

19 Interior.

20 Q. At any rate, that was your understanding in 1992 of how the

21 hierarchy worked; correct?

22 A. I was aware of it immediately because the only town that did not

23 have the public security service was Banja Luka, because it was there

24 that the security services centre was in place for the 20 municipalities.

25 So that you had nobody to appeal to to bring law and order to the major

Page 7440

1 town in Republika Srpska. But that's the way things happened, and that's

2 the way it was done.

3 Q. So focusing now on the hierarchy of the Ministry of the Interior,

4 essentially, instructions would come down from the Minister of the

5 Interior to the CSB, and then from there to the local level, and reports

6 went back up?

7 A. Yes, quite right.

8 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I could have marked as Prosecution's

9 next in order an article from Kozarski Vjesnik dated July 17th, 1992, and

10 bearing ERN of 0300-3570.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number --



14 Q. Mr. Radic, P361 is an article from Kozarski Vjesnik which

15 reflects the visit to Omarska by you and others, about which we've just

16 spoken; correct?

17 A. I'm just reading it. May I be allowed to read through it?

18 Q. Yes, please.

19 A. I assume that you're referring to this article here.

20 Q. I'm referring to a article headlined "Krajina representatives in

21 Prijedor."

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now, the article indicates that you, Mr. Zupljanin, Dr. Vukic,

24 and Mr. Brdjanin were the members -- were the representatives from the

25 Autonomous Region of Krajina who visited Prijedor on the day we've spoken

Page 7441

1 of.

2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I don't know how quickly the witness

3 is reading, but he wasn't given very long to read an article that he said

4 he wanted to read.

5 MR. TIEGER: I responded to something the witness had said, but

6 I'm more than happy to give him as much time to review it as may be

7 necessary.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radic, whenever you feel you need more time --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You may continue, yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger grants you then you may address me.


12 Q. I take it that was an accurate reflection of who the members of

13 the visiting party were.

14 A. Yes, correct.

15 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to some remarks by Mr.

16 Brdjanin as he's quoted in the article. And to orient you, there seems

17 to be a sub-headline called "Nobody finds it easy." And then I would

18 direct your attention to a portion of the article which is the fourth

19 paragraph below that and begins with Mr. Brdjanin's name.

20 A. So it's not this article here, is it?

21 Q. Well, that's a good question. So let's make sure we're talking

22 about precisely the same thing. And I may be in fact directing your

23 attention to what has been put together as one article, but in fact

24 reflected as more than one there. So, as you know, I first directed your

25 attention to --

Page 7442

1 A. Yes. I've found it. Here it is. I had to read through it to

2 find it.

3 Q. And you find the particular paragraph that begins with Mr.

4 Brdjanin's name, full name, Radoslav Brdjanin?

5 A. Yes. I assume that you're drawing my attention to this portion

6 here, and the assertion made by Mr. Brdjanin. And the quotation: "What

7 we have seen in Prijedor is an example of a job well done and it is a

8 pity that many in Banja Luka are not aware of it yet," et cetera, et

9 cetera, and then "there is constantly growing number of superfluous

10 Muslims in Banja Luka," et cetera, et cetera. Did you have that in mind?

11 Is that what you're referring to?

12 Q. That's precisely the portion I wanted to direct your attention

13 to.

14 A. And that follows the style of Mr. Brdjanin generally. I have

15 nothing more to say on that. The only thing correct here is that what

16 was happening around Banja Luka meant that we were subject to a large

17 number of refugees coming into Banja Luka looking for safety and

18 salvation.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, can I pause for just one moment.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me. I'm moving on to another

22 portion, which I think would be difficult to compress in five minutes and

23 is probably significant enough to ensure that we do it in one portion.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we do so, Mr. Tieger, I find a -- oh,

25 yes. It's the whole of the newspaper that in four pages and only the

Page 7443

1 front page, I take it, translated. Is that a correct understanding?

2 MR. TIEGER: I can double-check, but that is my understanding as

3 well.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it's the left side of the first page which

5 is translated. But perhaps you could ask -- the witness doesn't know

6 what is translated.

7 MR. TIEGER: Well, what I certainly can do is simply get that

8 checked before tomorrow morning and answer the Court's inquiry.


10 Mr. Radic, it's close to 7.00. We'll finish for the day. I'd

11 like to instruct you not to speak with anyone about your testimony, the

12 testimony you have already given today and you're still about to give

13 tomorrow.

14 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Radic out of the

15 courtroom.

16 Mr. Radic, you're expected to be here tomorrow at 9.00 in

17 Courtroom I. So we start tomorrow in the morning and not in the

18 afternoon.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, Mr. Radic has been scheduled for four

22 hours. Could you give us an indication on how much time you would still

23 need tomorrow.

24 MR. TIEGER: I would be optimistic, I don't know how much time

25 I've used, but as the Court knows I've been pretty rigorous about coming

Page 7444

1 in under the time. I think we will with him finish in the first session

2 tomorrow.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That could well bring us over four hours, but --

4 today we had a late start. We started at 2.30. We then spent some ten

5 to fifteen minutes on procedural issues and then the remaining time,

6 because of the late start of the last portion of today, we lost

7 altogether approximately 40 minutes of the four hours' court time we

8 usually have, apart from the last three minutes. So that would bring us

9 to three hours and twenty minutes now. If you had you would add the

10 whole of the first session tomorrow morning, that would bring another one

11 hour and a half, which would bring us to 4 hours and 5 minutes. But

12 Madam Registrar is always more precise in her ... Well, she is more

13 generous to you. Three hours and ten minutes in chief until now; one and

14 a half extra, that would bring us well over four hours.

15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour -- first of all, it's always a mistake

16 to compliment yourself in advance and I've certainly learned my lesson in

17 that respect. I'm trying to make the examination as efficient as

18 possible. I think I'm trying to indicate to the Court that it's going to

19 be in the reasonable range of that four-hour estimate. Even though - and

20 I would remind the Court - I think we tried to indicate it's quite

21 difficult under such circumstances to make an estimate.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. What I was seeking was to

23 encourage you to say what you've just said. If there are no further

24 issues, we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, Courtroom I.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.56 p.m.,

Page 7445

1 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of

2 October, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.