1 Monday, 22 November 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Mr. President. The Prosecutor
8 versus Momcilo Krajisnik, IT-00-39-T.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Ms. Edgerton, I see you're standing. You're together with
11 Mr. Hannis this morning and I see for the Defence there's Ms. Loukas and
12 Ms. Cmeric. Are you ready to call your next witness?
13 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: There are no protective measures effective --
15 MS. EDGERTON: None.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- in respect of this witness?
17 MS. EDGERTON: None.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And that would be Mr. Mehmed Music.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I also have received a Rule 90(F) summary. Has this
21 been discussed with the Defence?
22 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I've seen the Rule 89(F) summary. I can
23 indicate that there is an additional issue that I wish to raise at this
24 point, but it's not related to the 89(F) summary.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would it be -- since I do not know what the
1 issue is, would it be better to do it now or would it be better to do it
2 once the witness has been called?
3 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I can indicate what it is now.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MS. LOUKAS: Yet again, we have the, as it were, running sore of
6 the supplemental information sheet.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MS. LOUKAS: The supplemental information sheet arrived Sunday
9 afternoon. The witness has, of course, given four previous statements
10 over the last 12 years, and now suddenly the witness indicates that he saw
11 Mr. Krajisnik, Your Honour, at a particular detention facility. Now, Your
12 Honour, of course there's no provision for visits to the United Nations
13 Detention Unit on a Sunday, so I have not, of course, consulted with my
14 client in relation to this issue. I've asked Ms. Cmeric to give
15 Mr. Krajisnik, which she has done this morning, the relevant supplemental
16 information sheet. In those circumstances, I can indicate, Your Honour,
17 that at the end of the evidence in chief, the Defence certainly will not
18 be in a position to cross-examine this witness, in view of the very, very
19 late and new information.
20 So, Your Honour, I place that on the table.
21 JUDGE ORIE: It's good to know.
22 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I submit there are potentially two
23 alternatives, two alternatives being: Your Honours do not admit this
24 evidence, and the matter proceeds on the basis of the material that has
25 previously been indicated in relation to this witness; or, if Your Honours
1 are minded to allow the Prosecution to elicit this evidence, well, in
2 those circumstances, Your Honour, there are clearly -- there's a need for
3 a conference and there's the need for further investigation, because the
4 information also relates to another person, of course, who will need to be
5 consulted. So in those circumstances, Your Honour, I think it's very
6 clear in a the late arrival certainly places the Defence in a particularly
7 invidious position.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I'd like to have your comment and I
9 would like to add one question to the questions already raised by
10 Ms. Loukas. We're dealing with an 89(F) witness, and I would say, as a
11 general rule, we would not apply 89(F) -- to read out part of the written
12 statement or the summary of the written statement, if the evidence as such
13 would not qualify under 92 bis.
14 The introduction of the accused at -- in one of the camps, well,
15 would certainly put them in a quite different position from what is in
16 general terms presented until now by the Prosecution where there was no
17 direct presence of the accused in any detention facility, which I think in
18 terms of acts and conduct of the accused might be a totally different
19 matter. So, apart from the two suggestions Ms. Loukas made, I'd like to
20 add this question, and, of course, a the same time I'm wondering what's
21 happening. What's happening in my view is that at this moment the
22 Prosecution is relying on information given by witnesses well in advance
23 of the start of this trial, and perhaps even well in advance of the
24 presence of the accused before this Tribunal. But then to wait until the
25 very, very last day to update that information knowing that the testimony
1 of this witness is going to be presented in this case, and to leave these
2 very important matters up to the last Sunday before the witness arrives, I
3 would think that at least preparatory work should be done in the field
4 before so as to know what surprises could be expected. So that's also an
5 issue I'd like you to briefly address if you're in a position to do so.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour.
7 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, while we're awaiting -- Your Honour,
8 while we're awaiting a response --
9 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon.
10 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour. While we're awaiting a response,
11 there appears to be a problem with the LiveNote transcript. It seems to
12 have frozen on the computer screens. It seems to be running on the
13 laptops but not on the --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Even on the laptops, I see that it's not functioning
16 MS. LOUKAS: No. It's stopped on the laptops as well, yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could we therefore meanwhile ask the assistance of
18 the technicians to have the transcript running again. It gives the
19 Prosecution some additional time to consider the answers.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour. I just needed to consult
21 with Mr. Hannis to see whether there were any policy issues involved here
22 that I wasn't otherwise aware of. I think actually Your Honour is quite
23 correct. These statements as you can see particularly in this case --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, when the transcript is not -- no, when
25 the transcript is not running, we should perhaps at all refrain from
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I will see whether the transcript is
3 running again. It is not. It is not yet.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see it's now -- one second. I take it that
5 now the transcript is updated because the transcriber has repaired the
6 transcript. Yes. We're now there again. Is it also functioning on the
7 laptops as it is on mine? Yes. Then, Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Just to continue: As you can see, particularly in
9 this case, the statements are often taken years ago, and in the case of
10 Mr. Music, years before the accused before this Trial Chamber was even a
11 target. So at that point in time, and I being one of the interviewers,
12 I'm in a position to say I did not ask the witness anything about any
13 sightings of the Bosnian Serb leadership. Perhaps remiss of me at that
14 time, and in fact it's quite correct that these witnesses, for different
15 reasons, largely having to do with the completion strategy and budgetary
16 constraints, a number of these witnesses are not seen again as part of the
17 witness preparation until they're brought here by the victim witness unit.
18 So, in fact, it's not a great justification, Your Honour. Your assessment
19 of the situation is entirely accurate. I can only offer that yesterday,
20 on seeing Mr. Music for the first time in a year, which is a year ago
21 being the date I congratulated him after his having finished his testimony
22 in the Milosevic case, he offered for the first time that he had seen
23 Mr. Krajisnik and we simply did our utmost to disclose that information as
24 soon as we heard it ourselves.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's still surprising that if Mr. Music was
1 here one year ago, when it was known that he was on the witness list or at
2 least we could expect him on the witness list, in this case, that no
3 specific interview has been held with him in respect of the specifics of
4 this case.
5 MS. EDGERTON: With respect to his testimony in the Milosevic
6 case, I was not involved in that in terms of preparation or in any other
7 regard, Your Honour, so I can't speak to that. And I wasn't specifically
8 tasked at that time with any witness preparation for the Krajisnik case.
9 I only went to see him because of my personal acquaintance with him. And
10 perhaps I should indicate that, just a further consideration, that
11 Mr. Music was previously a 92 bis witness. He was upgraded to viva voce
12 witness, or in this case, 89(F) witness, because another Hadzici witness,
13 Zijad Okic, had passed away.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It's quite some coincidence, because under 92 bis, he
15 would not even have come to The Hague. You would have missed that
16 information that you're presenting now anyhow.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Quite so.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just confer with the other Judges for
19 one second.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has not received any of the supplementary
22 information; therefore, at this moment to give decisions is to ask, I
23 guess. Not admitting it would not be something to consider at this
24 moment. But at the same time, the Chamber fully understands the need for
25 further preparation for the cross-examination, even if that would involve
1 a recall of the witness, which of course we always try to avoid. And
2 therefore, I think the OTP is invited to see in one way or another -- I
3 mean, it's not the first time that we have these surprises at such short
4 notice. So therefore, for example, to see whether six or eight or ten
5 weeks in advance, that at least there will be a brief interview by whoever
6 it will be who acts on behalf of the OTP to see whether any further
7 surprises are to be expected. Ms. Loukas.
8 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, one suggestion I would make, of
9 course, is that there is, in fact, not necessarily a need to wait until
10 the witness arrives in The Hague to conduct some sort of preliminary
11 interview. We do have the benefit of telephones, and it seems to me --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's what I'm suggesting. When I was talking
13 about six, eight, or ten weeks in advance, that it was -- whether it's by
14 telephone, whether it's by any other means, by any investigator who would
15 see whether there's any need for an update. That's what I suggested to
16 the OTP right away, in order to that similar surprises will occur.
17 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed shocks sometimes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Just one further thing, Your Honour. With respect
22 to the information report, I can advise that I did e-mail the information
23 report to Mr. Zahar and Mr. De Hemptinne yesterday, along with to the
24 Defence counsel, so perhaps we could try and provide Your Honours with a
25 copy of that report on the first break.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, although the Chamber is aware of -- the
3 Defence is aware of -- usually receives the written statements and just in
4 preparation of the oral testimony, in this case, the Chamber prefers to
5 hear any additional evidence orally to receive it in its direct form and
6 not to first read at this moment the new information you have elicited
7 from him.
8 Therefore, at this moment, if you're ready to start the
9 examination-in-chief of the witness, we'll ask Mr. Usher to escort the
10 witness into the courtroom.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Music. Do you hear me in a
14 language you understand? I take it from your answer that you do.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Music. Before you give evidence in
17 this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a
18 solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and
19 nothing but the truth. The text is now handed out to you by the usher.
20 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
21 WITNESS: MEHMED MUSIC
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Music. Please be seated.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by Ms. Edgerton, counsel
3 for the Prosecution.
4 Ms. Edgerton, before we start, could I ask your attention for
5 paragraph 4 of what is presented to us as the 89(F) summary, paragraph 4,
6 second line. It reads: "The witness could see." And then follows a
7 number and then follows a qualification and then the word "around"
8 appears. If you -- if the witness could see 50 or 60. And if you are
9 summarising the statements of the witness, I think that it would be wise
10 that if words as we find them in this line are used, that you clearly
11 indicate that these are the words of the witness rather than anything
12 else. So, therefore, it could have been read: The witness could see 50
13 or 60 people. He calls. That makes it, I take it, more neutral.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Indeed, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 Examined by Ms. Edgerton:
17 Q. Good morning, Mr. Music.
18 A. Good morning.
19 Q. I wonder if, before we go further, the witness could be given
20 copies now of the four statements he's variously provided.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They have been presented. Have they been
22 attributed an exhibit yet, or not yet?
23 MS. EDGERTON: Not at this time.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: The B/C/S version will be presented to the witness.
2 MS. EDGERTON: And just in terms -- I don't know how Your Honour
3 wishes to proceed in this regard. In terms of the numbering of the
4 statements, the original versions of the 1993, 1994, and 1998 statements
5 are in B/C/S; the original version of the 1997 statement is in English.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The original language gets the number without
7 a ".1". So that means that for the first statements, the English
8 translation will get a ".1". As far as the 1997 statements are concerned,
9 there the B/C/S version is the ".1" version.
10 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
11 MS. EDGERTON:
12 Q. Now, Mr. Music, I see you have before you copies in your own
13 language of four documents, one dating from 1993, one from 1994, one from
14 1997, and one from 1998. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have you had an opportunity recently to review those documents in
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you recognise those documents?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Are those documents copies of statements that you've given on four
22 separate occasions to the Bosnian authorities and representatives of the
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When you reviewed those documents, did you find them to be true to
1 the best of your knowledge and recollection?
2 A. There were some corrections made in two places, I think, two or
3 three places. There were printing mistakes, typing errors. And something
4 that I added which I remembered later.
5 Q. Now, with respect to those corrections which you asked me to make
6 on the record today, perhaps I could deal with them, and they both relate
7 to the statement from 1997, English -- well, paragraph number 43. You
8 wish to correct a place-name set out in the second-to-last line of
9 paragraph 43. The place-name, which presently reads "Rastovica" you said
10 should read "Rastelica"; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the second correction, as I have noted here, appears in
13 paragraph 76, the sentence which in English reads: "I never saw that
14 group who had beaten us in the corridor again." I understand from you
15 that the version in your language is missing the "G" at the beginning of
16 the word "group." Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You asked me to have those corrections made on the record?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, leaving aside for the moment the information which you
21 remembered, which we'll deal with later, can you now confirm that these
22 statements you have before you are copies of your statements, which are
23 true to the best of your knowledge and recollection?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I wonder, then, Your Honour, if I could ask these documents
1 receive the appropriate exhibit numbers.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. The first document
4 dated 18th of April, 1993, will then receive the reference P407/A. As it
5 is a translation, it will have a dot 1. The second document, dated the
6 same date, 18th of April, 1993, will receive the reference P407/A, as it
7 is the original. The document dated 23rd of March, 1994 is a translation,
8 will receive the P407/B.1.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, I think we usually don't use the
10 slashes, so let's just make it 407A and 407A.1. Now the same for P407B.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. I apologise for this.
12 I then go to the document 23rd of March, 1994, receive the reference
13 P407B, as it is the original. The document dated 26th of June, 1997,
14 witness statement, will receive the reference P407C. The document dated
15 the same date will receive the reference P407C.1, as it is a translation
16 of the previous one. The document dated 21st of February, 1998 will
17 receive the reference P407D.1, as it is a translation. The document dated
18 the same date, 21st of February, 1998, will receive the reference P407D,
19 as it is the original.
20 Thank you, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Now, with the Trial Chamber's permission, and Mr. Music's
24 permission, I'd like to read in a summary of the evidence as set out in
25 the statements which are now filed as Exhibit number -- collectively filed
1 as Exhibit number 407.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
3 MS. EDGERTON: The witness, Mr. Mehmed Music, is a Muslim from
4 Donji Hadzici, Hadzici municipality. Prior to the outbreak of war, he
5 lived in the Muslim settlement of Musici. Around the beginning of March
6 1992, the witness was able to see Serbs in former JNA uniforms climbing
7 the hills around a Serb village carrying guns and ammunition to the peaks
8 around them. They were coming from a barracks in Blazuj. The Muslims
9 were asked in late April 1992 to surrender their weapons. In early May,
10 after the outbreak of hostilities in the region of Hadzici, bullets,
11 dumdum bullets, tracers, and flares were fired into the village of Musici.
12 From 15 May, shells were fired at the village.
13 On 17 or 18 May, on two separate occasions, local Serbs again
14 urged the Muslim villagers to surrender their weapons, the second time
15 calling through a megaphone, saying they would burn the village if they
16 failed to surrender. Villagers refused to surrender their weapons. The
17 village was shelled that evening, and the shelling lasted for three days.
18 Around noon on 20 May 1992, Serbs forces surrounded Musici and
19 entered the village. They were supported by two anti-aircraft guns. The
20 witness was in his house at the time with several others. Two local Serbs
21 known to the witness, armed with automatic rifles and wearing former JNA
22 uniforms entered the house and held those present at gunpoint. The
23 witness believes these Serbs to have been members of the military police.
24 14 Muslim males from Musici, including the witness, were gathered
25 in front of a house. The witness could see 50 or 60 people he calls
1 Chetniks around. Outside the house, the witness saw the bodies of three
2 males from Musici. One of the witness's brothers, Miralem, was among this
3 group of 14 captured men. Their captors marched him around the
4 settlement, calling people to surrender.
5 The 14 men from Musici were taken under guard to the primary
6 school in Hadzici, and from there to the garage of the Hadzici Municipal
7 Assembly building. Interrogations of the detainees began immediately,
8 taking place in the municipality building itself.
9 The witness was detained in this garage for six days, during which
10 time additional detainees were brought in, all Muslim. Eventually there
11 came to be 47 people in this garage. On the third day of his detention,
12 the witness was taken with the other men from Musici to load ammunition
13 from the former -- pardon, me. From the JNA ammunition store in
14 Zunovnica. Another group of detainees from the Hadzici KSIRC (culture,
15 sports, and recreational centre) was brought there for the task.
16 On the sixth day of his detention, the witness was taken with all
17 but three of the men from Musici to the KSIRC. There were approximately
18 60 Muslim men there at that time, and one woman. The witness recognised
19 the head of the detention facility in the KSIRC to be Momo Vujovic. He
20 knew the guards as well.
21 The witness saw detainees at the KSIRC beaten and mistreated. On
22 the second day of Bajram, the witness saw people who were identified to
23 him as Arkanovci come into the sports hall. They wore camouflage uniforms
24 and gloves which had the fingertips cut off. Their faces were painted
25 black. A woman was among this group, who the witness recognised as being
1 from Ilidza. He saw her sexually abuse two of the male detainees, in one
2 case ordering a prisoner to perform fellatio on another. The witness saw
3 members of this group chase one Muslim male around the inside of the hall
4 with a flag-pole. They beat him, as well as other prisoners who the
5 witness knew.
6 By 22 June, there came to be 282 detainees in the part of the
7 sports hall where the witness was held, all male. On or around 22 June
8 1992, the detainees were transferred by bus to Kula prison. There, the
9 buses were boarded by people who the witness describes as Chetniks, who
10 beat the prisoners. After the beating, the buses went to the Slavisa
11 Vajner Cica barracks in Lukavica.
12 All the men were taken from the buses and into the barracks
13 building. All the way to the barracks and up a flight of stairs, the
14 prisoners had to run a gauntlet of persons who the witness refers to as
15 Chetniks, and were beaten as they ran. The prisoners were put into two
16 rooms. The witness saw prisoners called out by name from the room for
17 interrogations, returning beaten. They heard the screams of one prisoner
18 and then a shot. This prisoner didn't return. These beatings lasted
19 until about 3.00 a.m. The next morning, all of the 280 men were moved
20 into one room at another part of the barracks.
21 An army officer took a list and called out 48 names from among the
22 detainees. The witness believed he heard his name called out as the 48th
23 person. As he got to the door, he had to run slowly along a corridor
24 through a zigzag gauntlet of men wearing red berets. He was brutally
25 beaten and cursed. From the way the men in red berets spoke, the witness
1 could tell they were not from there. Through the corridor, the witness
2 came upon a man lying down, covered in blood. They told him to pick him
3 up. He saw it was his brother, and carried him to the next room.
4 In the next room, the witness saw the prisoners who will be called
5 lined up against three walls, and in the middle of the room there was a
6 desk with three Serb officers. They asked the witness who he was and the
7 witness explained why he had come. The witness saw these men had a large
8 list of people, and the names they had called out were circled in red.
9 The witness was told his name was not on the list and to get out. He ran
10 back through the gauntlet to what remained of the original group of
11 detainees, beaten again. The witness has never seen any of the group of
12 47 men (including his brother) since that time.
13 After some time, another group came in to beat the remaining
14 prisoners. The prisoners were forced to sing Serb songs. The witness
15 remained in Lukavica for three days, but the prisoners were still beaten
16 when being taken to the toilet.
17 On the third day, the witness and approximately 232 other
18 detainees were taken by bus to Kula.
19 At Kula, the prisoners were divided into two rooms. Conditions
20 were cramped. There was poor sanitation. While detained at Kula, the
21 witness was interrogated by a man named Predrag Ceranic. Eventually, the
22 detainees were separated into several rooms with slightly better
23 conditions. On 30 June 1992, all persons born before 1936 were ordered to
24 leave. 75 detainees of the approximately 280 were immediately released at
25 the Vrbanja bridge in Sarajevo.
1 On 23 July 1992, the witness and five other men were called out
2 and told they were going to be exchanged. An UNPROFOR vehicle came to
3 pick them up. At Ilidza, the vehicle was stopped and the witness and one
4 other detainee were told to step out. They were taken to a cell in the
5 building of the Ilidza public security station. There were no windows in
6 this cell. The witness was housed in this cell until 8th of September,
7 1992. The head of the station was Tihomir Glavas. During his detention
8 at the Ilidza police station, one of the policeman told the witness they
9 had three different forces there: National, city, and a special
10 intervention force. The witness saw weekend Chetniks there who had come
11 from Serbia and Montenegro.
12 On 8th of September, following two abortive exchange attempts, the
13 witness was transferred to the KSIRC, where there were 500 detainees, men,
14 women, children, and elderly. Some ten days later, all women, children,
15 and some of the elderly men were released so that out of 500 detainees,
16 only 84 remained, including the witness.
17 On 23 October, the witness and approximately 70 other detainees
18 were transferred by bus from Hadzici to the Svrake camp. There were
19 approximately 102 prisoners already there. The witness remained at Svrake
20 until 5 November 1992.
21 That concludes the summary.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton. I take it you have
23 additional questions to the witness in chief.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
1 MS. EDGERTON:
2 Q. Now, Mr. Music, having read out this summary, I'd now like to ask
3 you some questions, largely relating to clarifications or additional
4 details based on the information contained in those four statements you
5 have before you.
6 A. Yes. Go ahead.
7 Q. First, then, relating to the first paragraphs of these statements,
8 you talk about your village of Musici and its location. At this time, I'd
9 like to show you a map, which you prepared yesterday.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour. And do
11 you have a copy of the map, Mr. Registrar? If we could have this map
12 marked with an exhibit number.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, the exhibit number for this map
15 will be P408. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
17 MS. EDGERTON:
18 Q. On this map, you made some markings yesterday.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And could you tell us what you've marked at point number 1 on the
22 A. Number 1 indicates my village in Hadzici.
23 Q. Now, just moving on further in your statements: In paragraph 7
24 and 8 of your statement to the Tribunal, you mention a camp called Catina
25 Bara in Blazuj. Could you point out, or have you been able to point out
1 the location called Blazuj on the map?
2 A. Blazuj is number 2. That was the barracks in Blazuj, actually.
3 And for as long as I've been alive, the barracks have been there, with the
4 JNA soldiers there. Now, after 1991, in the autumn, the reservists came
5 in there from Montenegro and Serbia. I would see them personally. In our
6 fields and meadows, above my village, they were drawing maps, and on one
7 occasion we actually --
8 Q. That was an occasion you've spoken about in your -- in a couple of
9 your statements; isn't that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, in your statement from 1993, you mention being taken to
12 Zunovnica, to load ammunition from the weapons store there. Have you been
13 able to mark the location of Zunovnica on that map?
14 A. Number 3.
15 Q. What kind of weapons were you loading?
16 A. Grenades, infantry weapons, mines, that kind of thing, small arms,
17 infantry arms. And we loaded that up from the last warehouses, because
18 our people, the Bosniaks, stormed the area from Brezovaca and took this
19 away. So they were withdrawing that equipment from the central point in
20 the barracks, where they had concrete hangars. So we took -- drove the
21 trucks in there and loaded and unloaded.
22 Q. You were under guard while you were offloading that ammunition; is
23 that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And how were the guards dressed?
1 A. Their police wore camouflage uniforms, olive-green ones. The rest
2 of them had the JNA-type uniform, army equipment.
3 Q. Now -- thank you. Now, leaving that map aside for a time, and
4 going back both in time chronologically to the beginning of your
5 statements and period before the outbreak of war. You mentioned the visit
6 of one neighbour, Goran Todorovic, to your settlement to ask for a
7 surrender. Now, what ethnicity was Todorovic?
8 A. I apologise. It's not Goran, but Gavro, Gavro Todorovic, and he
9 was a Serb. Up until the war, we were great friends, so that I trusted
10 him. I had more trust and confidence in him than some of my family
11 members. But due to force of circumstance, he seemed to change and then
12 he didn't want to see me any more, not only me, but my relatives, my
13 brothers, and all the other neighbours.
14 Q. Mr. Music just tell me: How was Mr. Todorovic dressed at the time
15 he visited you? What was he wearing?
16 A. He was wearing the olive-green JNA-type uniform. But also
17 stationed there was a telephone from -- brought in from Blazuj to his
18 house, in the autumn. And he didn't deny that. He told us that that was
19 the case. And he also told us not to go out once.
20 Q. Now, if I could just interrupt you, Mr. Music. This is
21 information that you've given to us in your statement from 1997; isn't
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And these are statements which are now evidence, exhibits before
25 the Trial Chamber, and they're aware of the content of these statements
1 and they'll be able to read them and study them, and these questions are
2 just by way of clarification to what you've said previously.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Just to move further now. You mention Djukanovic came to ask for
5 surrender; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How was he dressed at the time?
8 A. He wore the same thing, the olive-green uniform, and he had a
9 white band on his arm.
10 Q. Now, you also talk about one Dragan Pusara calling for surrender
11 through a megaphone; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How do you know it was Pusara who was calling for surrender?
14 A. Well, I saw him. It was about a hundred metres away as the crow
15 flies. And as we knew that he was a Vojvoda and led all those men, all
16 the ones that took part in the attack on the village and the torching of
17 the village and so on, that's how. And I also had some binoculars and was
18 able to look through them. I was a hunter for 50 years, so I was able to
19 monitor his movements with those binoculars and his arming and so on. And
20 we were powerless to do anything to stop him.
21 Q. Now, the -- Djukanovic and Pusara are both ethnic Serbs; is that
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Two men named Elcic who came into your home to detain you, what's
25 their ethnicity?
1 A. They were also Serbs. And their mother came from the village, so
2 I knew them, although Tomo worked in the Coca-Cola factory with me for
3 many years.
4 Q. Now, you talk about, in paragraph 3 of your 1993 and 1998
5 statement, and paragraph 28 of your ICTY statement, you talk about your
6 capture, and you describe your capture by a large group of people. You
7 put the number of captors at between 50 and 60. Now, if we could just
8 talk about that group of people for a minute. Could you tell us whether
9 they were in uniform or in civilian clothes, and if they were in uniform,
10 what kind of uniform were they wearing?
11 A. Their police wore camouflage uniform, the olive-green type,
12 whereas all the support and the rest of the police force wore the JNA
13 uniforms and they had helmets too, whereas the other policemen did not
14 have helmets.
15 Q. Among those captors, you mention an individual by the name of Rade
16 Veselinovic. What was his ethnicity?
17 A. He was a Serb by ethnicity, and he was a hauler, a transporter, up
18 until the war. And he provoked me most during the time I spent at
19 Hadzici, and he provoked my wife as well.
20 Q. Now, you mention seeing the bodies of three men by the house of
21 Alija Music. Were these three men any close family relation to you?
22 A. Alija Music and Dervis Music were uncles. They were my father's
23 brothers. And Fadil, he was my father's cousin. So they were all related
24 in one way or another.
25 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to provide you and the Trial Chamber with
1 a photograph bearing the number 00520200-35. If it could receive an
2 exhibit number.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: This document will have the reference P409,
5 Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON:
9 Q. Mr. Music, you saw that photograph yesterday; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you recognise what you see in the picture before you?
12 A. That is the Municipal Assembly now. We were detained in the first
13 garage here, the one that's black. That's where I stayed. 47 men were
14 there while I was there. That's where we were examined. You see where
15 the green car is, that window.
16 Q. Thank you. I was --
17 A. You're welcome.
18 Q. Mr. Music, I was just trying to ask you -- you're pointing with
19 your pen, and the Trial Chamber is not in a position to see what you're
20 pointing to. I wonder if you can describe what you're pointing to. I
21 wonder if we could -- are we in a position to put it on the ELMO?
22 JUDGE ORIE: If we put it on the ELMO, we can follow the witness
23 when he points at something, and if you would then describe that,
24 Ms. Edgerton.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
1 Q. Now, Mr. Music, with the pointer, could you show the Trial Chamber
2 where you were detained.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Music, you're invited to point at it on the
4 ELMO so that we can see it on our screen.
5 THE WITNESS: [Indicates]
6 MS. EDGERTON: Indicating the garage door to the far right.
7 Q. And Mr. Music, at the point where I interrupted you, you mentioned
8 something about a green car. What were you speaking about?
9 A. They were questioning me here, where this window is. That's where
10 we were beaten and things like that. And now you see this window here?
11 That's where the toilet was. When people would enter the door -- through
12 the door here, then that's where they'd beat us. Anyway, they wanted to.
13 They beat Mujcic [phoen] the most. I think they questioned him about ten
14 times. When we went to Lukavica, and that's what he told me, since he had
15 a business of his own, they kept asking for money and things like that.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Music, does this photo of this building you call the
17 Municipal Assembly building look like the building as it did in May 1992?
18 A. No. No. It didn't burn then. When the Dayton Agreement was
19 signed, as they were leaving, they torched it. See? It was burned here,
20 and it looked like this before. But it didn't look like this then. They
21 had a normal roof and windows and doors and things like that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When the witness was pointing, Ms. Edgerton,
23 the place where he was beaten, he was pointing at the two openings in the
24 wall directly behind the white and the green car.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Thank you.
1 Q. Thank you. Now, leaving that photo aside and moving on to another
2 photo, which I'd ask be given an exhibit number.
3 MS. LOUKAS: Just before we move on from that photo, Your Honour,
4 perhaps an indication from the Prosecution as to when the photograph was
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, there is a date on it, Ms. Loukas, but unless
7 there's any reason to believe it was not taken on the 16th of June, 1997
8 then ...
9 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. Because often with these things the
10 correct date is not on the photograph. You cannot necessarily trust the
11 computer generated aspect on the bottom of the photograph.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is there -- Ms. Edgerton.
13 MS. EDGERTON: It was taken on the 16th of June, 1997, and you see
14 me at the bottom right-hand corner of the picture wearing a long red
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hadn't noticed that yet.
17 MS. LOUKAS: Nor had I, Your Honour. I don't think we've got
18 Ms. Edgerton on the -- well, I can't recognise her.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's a different matter. But this is -- although
20 it's not evidence, it's firsthand information.
21 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
22 MS. EDGERTON: If we could -- we'll remove that photo and put
23 another photo on the ELMO after it receives an exhibit number. The next
24 one bears the ERN number 00500200-20, also taken on the same date.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it, Mr. Registrar, that this will be
2 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 Please proceed.
5 MS. EDGERTON:
6 Q. Mr. Music, now looking tell next photograph on the ELMO, you had
7 an opportunity to view that photograph yesterday; is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Could you tell us what you see in front of you.
10 A. The sports hall where I was detained, together with my neighbours,
11 friends, relatives, and so on.
12 Q. Now, at the moment you have your pointer on the -- what looks like
13 an entry way to the bottom right-hand side. Could you point to the
14 location or the entry way to the area where you were detained.
15 A. The entry way was here, so that no one could run away. As for the
16 inside, it's all in there, yes. But I never told you this: In September,
17 towards the end of September, they threw shells here, see? You can see
18 the holes here. We were hit by shells, and 20 people were wounded. I
19 avoided all contacts, because I was the only survivor among all the
20 families that were brought to these camps. But see the shell marks here?
21 I never told you about that. I noticed it just now. So all the glass was
22 shattered then, and then we had to clean it. We were lying on the
23 concrete floors. It was very cold. It rained. As for the interior, you
24 know what it's like. It's a sports hall, basketball can be played there.
25 I cannot give you the exact number of metres, how big a basketball hall
1 should be, but I'm sure that 1.000 people went through there. Because it
2 changed. Some Serbs were taken away, who had money and friends and who
3 paid for getting out. I have a neighbour, you see --
4 Q. If I could just stop you there. I note that for the record the
5 witness is pointing to what appears to be damage to the roof of the
6 building on the top right-hand corner.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whereas he was pointing to the right portion,
8 just right from the middle of the photograph and he pointed at the entry
9 used, but also moved sometimes the pointer to the left part of what seems
10 to be an entrance. Please proceed.
11 MS. EDGERTON:
12 Q. Now, Mr. Music, if we could leave that aside and move on further
13 in clarifying your previous evidence or the evidence in your statements,
14 I'd like to talk about your transfer into the Sarajevo area. You
15 mentioned you drove by -- you were driven by bus. Could you tell me if
16 the drivers of the bus, buses, were in uniform or not, as far as you could
18 A. Yes, in olive-green/grey uniforms of the JNA.
19 Q. Now, once you had arrived at the gate to Kula prison, you talk
20 about people boarding the bus and beating the prisoners. Were these
21 people in uniform?
22 A. Yes. They had camouflage uniforms. When we came to the Kula
23 gate, that's where we were supposed to be put up. I have no idea why they
24 didn't let us -- I don't know whether the warden was there or not. Some
25 people went missing too. But they beat us, and then they threw ammunition
1 and they said: Look, balijas have ammunition. My father-in-law sat on
2 the first seat and I was in the back. My father-in-law was born in 1926,
3 so he participated in the other big war before that. And you can imagine
4 what it was like. They beat us. They stubbed out cigarettes on our necks
5 and things like that. You can imagine what it was like. Then there were
6 some people on the Bosnian side, Dobrinja. We stayed there for an hour or
7 two or whatever. It seemed like eternity to me. I was praying to God
8 that they kill us and that they get it over with. And then -- yes.
9 Q. These are difficult times that you're recalling, I know, and I
10 apologise, but I feel I ought to remind you again that this is something
11 you've spoken about previously in your statements and these are now
12 exhibits with the Trial Chamber, and they do have that evidence in front
13 of them.
14 What I'd like to ask you about next, if I could, is when you speak
15 about arriving in the Slavisa Vajner Cica barracks, you mention you were
16 beaten by a gauntlet as you were leaving the bus, entering the barracks
17 building, and including up the stairs. Do you recall whether this
18 gauntlet of people were wearing uniform at all?
19 A. They all wore uniforms, but we didn't dare look. We were supposed
20 to keep our hands on the backs of our heads and we were supposed to keep
21 running. Then they entered the dormitories and they beat us when we went
22 to the toilets. They used different objects to beat us. So I remember
23 that a neighbour asked if he could go and use the toilet too, and I just
24 heard the guard hit him on the back. And he fell. I heard the blow. I
25 don't know his name or surname.
1 Q. Can I ask you about the gauntlet --
2 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry to interrupt at this point, but I think it
3 would be very useful, in view of the fact that we're going through this
4 process on an 89(F) basis of attempting to elucidate or clarify four
5 different statements. I think for future reference it might be useful to
6 actually mention on the transcript which particular paragraphs we are
7 currently elucidating or clarifying.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yell. I see Ms. Edgerton is nodding so she'll take
9 your suggestion.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Of course I can do that. That previously -- the
11 point at which we're at now deals or arises from or relates to paragraph 6
12 of the statement from 1993 and paragraph 62 of the ICTY statement. And
13 I'm dealing with the gauntlet that the witness had to run as he left the
14 bus and went into the barracks building and up the stairs.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MS. EDGERTON:
17 Q. Mr. Music, do you recall hearing anybody in this gauntlet speak as
18 you were running past?
19 A. They were swearing at us, cursing our balija mothers. This is
20 what you get for Alija's state. There were all sorts of provocations like
22 Q. Do you remember noticing anything in particular about their accent
23 at that time?
24 A. I stated that. When they called out my name, I recognised their
25 accents as coming from Serbia and Montenegro, because for 18 months I did
1 my service in Serbia, in Nis, to be precise. And then, while I stayed in
2 Germany for five years, I had people from there working with me, and then
3 also later on when I worked for Coca-Cola, I worked with people from
4 Serbia and Montenegro. And then while I was still working for Coca-Cola,
5 I travelled to Serbia and Montenegro and back. So I'm familiar with the
6 accent, yes.
7 Q. Now, the witness is actually moved on to paragraph 7 of the 1993
8 statement, paragraphs 3 and 4 of the 1994, 70 to 73 of the ICTY statement,
9 and 5 of the 1998 statement. He's talking about the calling out of the 48
10 prisoners in Lukavica barracks.
11 Now, Mr. Music, in the paragraph numbers that I've just stated,
12 you describe that gauntlet and say that the people in the gauntlet were
13 wearing red berets; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And did you have a chance to notice what kind of uniforms they
16 were wearing?
17 A. They all wore camouflage uniforms, red berets, judging by the way
18 they spoke and by their accents, it's not that I'm 100 per cent sure; I'm
19 1.000 per cent sure that they were from Serbia. They were the members of
20 the Special Forces from Nis, the Nis specialists. I mentioned that in my
21 previous statement in December last year.
22 Q. Now, in paragraph 7 of your 1993 statement, paragraph 4 of your
23 1994 statement, and 74 of your statement to the Tribunal, you talk about
24 arriving in the next room and seeing three officers sitting at a desk. I'd
25 like to know what led you to the conclusion that these were officers.
1 A. Well, you see, they had ranks, they all wore uniforms. Since I
2 recognised on my left-hand side, as I walked in, I was not supposed to put
3 my head up, but there was a lot of blood all over. But on the left-hand
4 side I did see my brother and I had to put my hands up and I was supposed
5 to look only in front of me. The man from Serbia had a kind of Lika cap
6 with a coat of arms, and I recognised him as being from Serbia. He said:
7 Bre, where are you from? And then I said where I was from. And he swore
8 at my mother. He cursed my mother, and then he said: Where are your
9 sons? At the front line? And I said I have no sons. I have only
10 daughters. And he said: What is this? We were supposed to see this man
11 who had sons. And they confused me with my brother. Whereas my brother
12 stayed at home with his retarded son. You can find that in my statement.
13 It was this Montenegrin who was interrogating me, whereas the Serb who was
14 with me, or rather with us, I don't know where he was from, but he did not
15 mistreat me. And this man from Serbia hit me and --
16 Q. Mr. Music, that's right. We can find that in your previous
17 statement. And just to clarify --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- something further. I note at page 30, line 3 of the
20 transcript, Mr. Music is referring to his statement in December of last
21 year. That's when he testified --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I take it his testimony in the Milosevic case.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Quite so.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Quite so.
1 Q. I'd like to move on now to paragraph 84, Mr. Music, of your
2 statement to the Tribunal. And that's where you mention seeing or meeting
3 a man who you identify as Slobodan Avlijas. Could you clarify for us
4 where you saw Mr. Avlijas?
5 A. Mr. Avlijas, I saw him while I was in Kula. He came to my room,
6 since Semsic was a colleague of his, he graduated from law school together
7 with him, so he came to visit him. And he then gave him a pack of
8 cigarettes then, some kind of Serbian cigarettes, and he also gave him
9 some Serb money, because that was the first time I saw it. And this money
10 was changed at the time, so that was the first time I saw this money while
11 I was in camp. And then he also took him out for coffee, so I saw him on
12 that occasion. Later on I saw him yet again when I was on the commission
13 for exchanges. Masovic [phoen] asked him about these people these 47
14 people who were missing. He said: Avlijas, where are these people? And
15 then he said: Well, look, Amor, I tell you. But I was not there at all.
16 I was in Bijeljina. And when I challenged that, when I said on which day
17 he came there and what he did and all that, then he said: Well --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, the question to you was: Could you
19 clarify for us where you saw Mr. Avlijas. I fully understand that you
20 would like to tell all of the story you know. We have access to that
21 already in your written statements. If we would hear the stories of
22 everyone who has experienced those times, it would take us another 10 to
23 20 years. I hope that you do understand. And that's the reason why this
24 Tribunal has decided that it will allow the parties also to give written
25 statements. And of course you're telling us a lot of details.
1 Ms. Edgerton might be interested in very specific details. So if you
2 would please very carefully listen to her questions and then specifically
3 answer to the details she thinks are most relevant at this moment. I'm
4 not saying that the others are irrelevant or that they are less important
5 for you, but we are under some time restraint. So may I invite you to
6 focus on exactly what Ms. Edgerton asks you. Please proceed, Ms.
8 MS. EDGERTON:
9 Q. Mr. Music, you were able to recognise Mr. Avlijas because you knew
10 him personally, you had known him from before the war; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Could you tell us what his occupation was before the war?
13 A. He was a judge at the municipality in Hadzici. And he lived on
14 the same floor where my father-in-law lives, in the building where the TO
15 was, across the street from the municipality building that you showed me.
16 It was less than a hundred metres away.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, I'm again going to ask you. The question
18 was what the occupation of Mr. Avlijas was. You answered that by saying
19 that he was a judge at the municipality in Hadzici, and then you started
20 telling us where he was living, et cetera, et cetera, where Ms. Edgerton
21 only asked you at this moment what his profession was. So could I again
22 ask you to focus specifically on those details asked by Ms. Edgerton.
23 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
24 MS. EDGERTON: That having been answered, the last question having
25 been answered in that way, he effectively anticipated my next question.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it's a bit difficult, of course. You'll
2 understand if we give guidance to the witness how to respond to your
3 questions, that even it would be your next question he should first wait
4 until that question is put to him. Please proceed.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. At this moment, Your Honour, what I
6 would like to do is play two -- two telephone intercepts, both of which
7 the witness listened to yesterday in their entirety, one of which was
8 partially played previously before this court. I'm just looking at the
9 time. I think --
10 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would it approximately take you?
11 MS. EDGERTON: I think we would have time to play the first one
12 all the way through and then maybe break for the second one. And I should
13 indicate, Your Honour, in line with the guidance you had previously given
14 as regards these intercepts, I won't be asking the witness to offer
15 contextual comments on these intercepts. It's merely the Prosecution's
16 position that these intercepts relate to some of the incidents the witness
17 has spoken about in his previous statements and detailed somewhat in his
18 testimony. So we would have time if we began now to play one in its
19 entirety. I think it might be --
20 JUDGE ORIE: But I take it that you'll put some questions to the
21 witness at least.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Would it be wise to play one intercept first. Would
24 you then immediately ask questions about it? Because otherwise it might
25 not be fresh in his memory any more if we are half an hour later. So I
1 leave it up to you. If you say I can deal with the first intercept, then
2 ask a few questions, if that could be done, well, let's say within the
3 next 12 minutes, then it's fine.
4 [Prosecution counsel confer]
5 MS. EDGERTON: I think playing the first one might push us over
6 the time, Your Honour, actually.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then perhaps play both of them after the break.
8 We'll then now first have a break until 10 minutes to 11.00, if that would
9 be convenient.
10 Mr. Music, we'll have a break of some 25 minutes. We'll adjourn,
11 unless you, Mr. Hannis, would -- you are standing. No, not to address the
12 Court. We'll adjourn until 10 minutes to 11.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I think what we'll do now is we'll
17 proceed with the intercepts, one after the other, with a brief pause after
18 the first. Now, the first intercept to be played was -- and Ms. Javier
19 can correct me if I'm mistaken, but the first intercept to be played was
20 previously played in part before this Trial Chamber and the CD received an
21 exhibit number and that's P292. So in other words, the whole intercept
22 has already been made an exhibit, but the Trial Chamber has only heard an
23 extract from it, and we propose to play the intercept in its entirety,
24 using the same number, obviously. And I would ask that the witness be
25 given a B/C/S copy of the transcript, please, so he can follow along.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there's no objection to that procedure.
2 We'll have to consider whether or not to give a new exhibit number to the
3 transcript of this intercept or whether that appears sufficiently in
4 the -- to say the 209 series.
5 MS. EDGERTON: The 292 series, that would be.
6 JUDGE ORIE: 292, yes. Sorry. We'll deal with that at a later
7 moment. Please proceed.
8 MS. EDGERTON: All right.
9 Q. Mr. Music, yesterday, with Mr. Hannis and myself, you listened to
10 two intercepted conversations. I'm going to play those conversations for
11 you again in sequence, one after the other. And I'd ask you to follow
12 along on the transcript in front of you as best you can, please. The
13 first conversation is dated 26 June 1992, between Momcilo Krajisnik and
14 Momcilo Mandic.
15 [Intercept played]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, we do not hear anything, neither do we
17 receive any translation which is --
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are not getting any sound,
19 so --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. Ms. Edgerton, could we please
21 restart, because the interpreters get no original B/C/S sound.
22 [Intercept played]
23 MS. EDGERTON: I see from the booth the interpreters aren't
24 receiving any sound.
25 THE INTERPRETER: No sound, Your Honour. Now we can hear the
1 sound but it's not discernible.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think I -- in the beginning I hear the same
3 as you do before you start translating, and I do understand that there's
4 no start of any translation.
5 MS. EDGERTON: The technician is coming in, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Do we know what the problem is, which is mainly the
7 first step to the solution?
8 MS. EDGERTON: I have no idea what the problem is, Your Honour,
9 but while it would have been convenient, in fact, appropriate, to play the
10 intercepts at this interval because they fit within the chronology of the
11 evidence so far, we could move on and come back to them. It might be
12 somewhat confusing for the witness, but we could do that for the sake of
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Music, since we have some technical
15 difficulties in playing the intercept, Ms. Edgerton moves now to another
16 subject. But we'll come back to this later.
17 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. And failing the technician being able to
19 achieve something, we'll try and work with the transcript, but I'd prefer
20 just to proceed for now and see if they can fix this problem.
21 Q. At this point, Mr. Music, I'd like to move forward in the
22 chronology of what took place in 1992 to the point at which you were taken
23 to the police station in Ilidza, and that principally begins at around
24 paragraph 93 and onward from the ICTY statement. And I'd like to deal
25 with the new information that you told us about over the course of the
2 Now, Mr. Music, you've described in your statements that you were
3 held with a small number of other detainees in a cell in the police
4 station in Ilidza; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, from this cell, I understand that you had some small --
7 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to this, I would be
8 submitting it's not appropriate for any further leading in view of the
9 nature of the material sought to be elicited.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, could you do your utmost best, and
11 otherwise, Ms. Loukas will remind you not to lead in this respect.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Fine.
13 Q. Mr. Music, could you tell us where this cell was located in the
14 police station.
15 A. The cell in the police station at Ilidza was located in the middle
16 of this building. As you go up to the chief on the floor above. So I
17 could see everybody coming in and out, going up to the first floor. It
18 was 25 times 20, a steel door. There was a toilet there.
19 Q. Sorry, Mr. Music. What was 25 times 20, please?
20 A. The opening in the middle of the door, to allow air to come in. We
21 had no windows, so this was a form of ventilation. And if they closed
22 this partition, this small window, then we would be suffocating inside.
23 The premises was used as a toilet previously, but as it was being used as
24 a prison, there was sometimes two of us and as many as 12 of us at times.
25 Q. So if you could just clarify, then. There was a door to this cell
1 with an opening. And where did that door look out onto?
2 A. You looked out onto the staircase and the entrance and exit to all
3 the offices in the police station on the floor, on that storey. So I was
4 able to see all the comings and goings, who was coming in and going out.
5 On many occasions I saw many people I knew from Hadzici, but we weren't
6 allowed to say anything to them because they kept the fact that this was
7 in fact a camp confidential, a secret.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, again, the question was: Where did the
9 door look out onto? You answered that question, and then you continued to
10 give us information which -- well, may be relevant, but whether or not, if
11 you would first wait for the next question by Ms. Edgerton and then we'll
12 see what she'd like to know. Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
13 MS. EDGERTON:
14 Q. Just in terms of the opening that you're describing in this door,
15 you've mentioned 25 times 20 but I see you're holding your hands up. Are
16 you demonstrating for the Trial Chamber the size of the opening in the
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. Now, you've said that this door looked out onto the staircase and
20 the entrance and exit to all the offices in the police station; is that
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. On --
24 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment. I've lost my train
25 of thought.
1 Q. Now, with that description of the cell and the viewpoint, could
2 you tell us about the day in which you saw the accused at the police
3 station in Ilidza.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, you were inviting not to lead. I have
5 never heard in my whole life a more leading question than this one.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, then would you permit the question
7 whether or not he has ever seen the accused during the course of his
8 detention in Ilidza?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Especially in view of the, I would say, of the view
10 of the surprise, wouldn't it be proper to ask whether -- let me do it.
11 Mr. Music, when you -- you said you had a view through that door.
12 Did you see people -- because you said that you had a look at the -- let
13 me just have a look. Did you ever recognise someone coming in or going
14 one out one of the offices you could look at?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And who did you recognise? First of all, perhaps:
17 How many people did you recognise coming in and out? What number?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's like this: I knew many
19 people. Many people from Hadzici, from the police, came there to see the
20 chief, Tomo Kovac, who was there then. In mid-August, I saw Momcilo
21 Krajisnik coming to the MUP at Ilidza, because Tomo Kovac was supposed to
22 be replaced by Tihomir Glavas, who was in the police from the very
23 beginning of the war in Hadzici. He was the chief of police. So that I
24 did have an opportunity -- I did everything that was necessary. I threw
25 out the rubbish, for example and things like that. But I was close to the
1 door which was opened and the police were waiting there, the police
2 station was there, and I was doing some cleaning, and they didn't know I
3 was there. They didn't realise I was there. But they were talking to
4 each other and they said: Momcilo Krajisnik came and Tomo Kovac was
5 supposed to go and become minister of police. So I overheard that
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you first.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Did you hear people talking about a visit of
10 Mr. Krajisnik or did you see Mr. Krajisnik?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw a car arriving, but I stood
12 apart because I saw an escort, I knew that somebody was coming. So I
13 stood by the window, by the police, where the door was always open if I --
14 if they needed me to do anything, to clean an office or anything like
15 that --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just stop you. The question was whether you
17 heard people saying that Mr. Krajisnik visited the police station or did
18 you actually see Mr. Krajisnik yourself?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of their conversation,
20 I heard them say that he had come --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but my question was whether it was just that you
22 heard them saying that he visited or did you see him yourself? Perhaps we
23 limit ourselves to the last question. Did you with your own eyes see
24 Mr. Krajisnik?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did. Straight afterwards,
1 they brought me in and I was coming in through the opposite door, not the
2 main entrance not the main door. Because we were on the opposite side and
3 I recognised the man. I recognised him when he was coming back, when he
4 was returning.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were you in your cell or were you not in your
6 cell when you say you saw Mr. Krajisnik?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in the cell. I was in the
8 cell. They had taken me back to the cell to prevent me from seeing too
9 much. But I just happened to see it because the door was slightly ajar.
10 I was standing by the door. And I saw that happen. And they were saying
11 that he was supposed to come. I didn't know what the gentleman was doing
12 there, because I was in the camp, so I didn't know the general situation
13 and the goings-on, what was actually happening.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that you saw him through the window
15 in the door or through an opening, the door not being fully closed?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through the opening. The door was
17 closed, but through the opening. They would always lock the door.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You said it was ajar. Is that --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The small window on the door was
20 slightly ajar, was slightly open, and we would have suffocated had they
21 not let that small window on the door open.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand that there was a kind of a closing to
23 that small window so you could close it or you could open it?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And you said it was -- do I understand you properly
1 that you said it was almost closed but not entirely?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not entirely, no. They would leave
3 it open for some air to come in, to prevent us from suffocating. As it
4 was a WC, there was water there all the time and I was wet myself all the
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, how many people were in your cell at the
7 moment when this happened?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was alone on that occasion,
9 because my colleague, the driver, had taken away the dredger. They took
10 away from the Muslims and Croats everything that was valuable. So we were
11 driving this to the warehouse up there in Blazuj.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then you told us that you saw
13 Mr. Krajisnik. How long would you be able to see him? Did he pass by?
14 Did he stand still? Did he ...
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just while he was moving.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And was he moving in what direction? From left
17 to right or away from you, from the position where you were?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether he knew that I
19 was there then, because when he -- he was coming in, I said that the car
20 arrived in the compound --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, I was not asking whether Mr. Krajisnik was
22 aware, but I was asking in what direction he moved when you saw him.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Towards the exit.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Towards the exit. Did he come from the right or did
25 he come from the left?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was sitting like this, as I am
2 now, and he passed in front of me, just a metre away. He was just
3 going -- moving towards the next door, up the stairs, two metres from the
4 stairs to the cell.
5 JUDGE ORIE: At what height approximately was the opening in the
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the opening was at the level
8 of my head.
9 JUDGE ORIE: That would be approximately in the middle of the
10 door, taking into account the average height of a door?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Higher. More, higher.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It would be higher. Could you give us an indication
13 then how high.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me explain it to you like
15 this: On one occasion, one of them knelt down, crouched down. The other
16 man got up on his shoulders and they urinated on us and then they threw in
17 acid at us. So the only way he could do this was to stand on his
18 colleague's shoulder and then they closed the door on us. And a Serb, he
19 was decent person and opened the aperture because we start coughing and
20 our eyes starting watering. So if I were to stand up, it would be on a
21 par at the level of my chin. And I was able to see them go for lunch or I
22 could see everybody coming in and out. And I could recognise them by
23 their voices. I knew who was going by. Even if the door was closed, you
24 know, when you're in the camp for such a long time, you could recognise
25 people's footsteps. And I asked them to let me move around and do the
1 most menial of jobs just to get me out of that cell and to survive and get
2 through that period.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You've not yet answered my question whether he came
4 from the left or from the right.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was coming back. He was going
6 back. I was here and he was going back. So he was passing by the
7 staircase. I could see his head and I can see everything. I don't know
8 why he was coming. I learnt that when I heard them talking.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, you've now told -- given me a lot of
10 information, but still not answered my question. Did he come from the
11 left when he went to the exit or did he come from the right when he went
12 to the exit?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, coming from the left. He was
14 passing by the staircase right by me, just like this screen in front of
15 me. All I was aware of then was that I had seen him. I never thought I'd
16 survive and have to explain it all to you here before you. Had I known
17 that I was coming here, well, then I might have paid more attention so
18 that I could describe it more exactly to you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on to the next
21 point, and I apologise --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not saying that this was by my questions was
23 exhausted. I have to be quite clear to you: I have not seen the
24 additional information. I've not read it. I've not even seen it at this
25 moment. I know that it does exist. So my questions were entirely on the
1 basis of, I would say, of a blank mind. So I would not mind if you have
2 any further questions, but please proceed.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour. To my mind, this issue, what's
4 come out into evidence as regards this issue has been satisfactorily
5 covered and I'd like to move on to the next point now.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MS. EDGERTON:
8 Q. Mr. Music, dealing with paragraph 10 of your 1993 statement and
9 paragraph 103 of your statement to the Tribunal, you talk about your
10 return to the sports centre in Hadzici, where you found there were
11 approximately 500 detainees. Could you tell us: Did you have any
12 immediate family members present in that group of 500?
13 A. Yes. Yes. My late father was there. He died immediately after
14 leaving the camp. Then there was my brother, my sister-in-law, my
15 brother's son, who's retarded, his other son, who was born in 1981, my
16 wife, Zumreta Music, then a cousin of mine, Hamid Music, and his wife
17 Hasnija Music.
18 Q. And from conversations with the other detainees, did you learn
19 where they were from, where they had come from?
20 A. They were all locals from Hadzici. They all -- Gadici [phoen],
21 Dupovici [phoen], those hamlets, Donji Hadzici, from all the different
22 hamlets, and I knew practically every single person who was there.
23 Q. Thank you. Now dealing with paragraph 11 of your 1993 statement
24 and paragraphs 108 to 112 of your ICTY statement. You talk about your
25 transfer to Svrake and the situation there. And at this point, I'd like
1 to show you a photo, a further photo, which -- bearing the number
2 03616938, which has an exhibit number from this Trial Chamber, number
3 P379. It was previously shown. I have both copies of the photo here, but
4 Mr. Registrar might ... If a copy could be shown to the witness?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. I think the witness would like to point
7 something out on the ELMO. Maybe we could have the usher just shift the
8 picture up a little.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please have the ELMO moved
10 such direction that the whole of the picture appears. A little bit higher
11 up even.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Up a little more, please. I think that's
14 Q. Now, Mr. Music, did you have occasion to have a look at this
15 photograph yesterday?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you recognise what's depicted in the photograph?
18 A. This is in Svrake, Planja's house, called Duja [phoen] camp. We
19 would go up here. That was the entrance, and --
20 Q. Indicating the entrance on the left-hand side of the photograph.
21 A. The entrance was here, and I was up here, on this upper storey,
22 here, here.
23 Q. Indicating the first floor.
24 A. The first floor.
25 Q. And does this --
1 A. That was where the police were.
2 Q. Indicating the second -- one of the second-floor windows; is that
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, does this depict the picture of what you call Planjo's house
6 resemble how it appeared in 1992?
7 A. Yes, it's the same as it is now.
8 Q. Now, in paragraph 11 of your 1993 statement, you say you found 102
9 detainees there on your arrival. From conversations with those other
10 detainees, did you learn where they were from?
11 You can remove the photo now.
12 A. From talking to the people, I learnt that they were from the
13 Semizovac, Svrake, Ahatovici area, Bioca, and I think it belongs to the
14 other municipality, Visoko, Visoko municipality. Because I have some
15 family there and I came across some cousins and relations on my father's
16 side who took me in. So I went upstairs, where they were lying down.
17 They spent the whole night on the staircase. They were good people. And
18 they went to be a human shield at Zuc later on and to dig trenches and
20 Q. Mr. Music, now if we could just --
21 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MS. EDGERTON: I would like to put another document, a document to
24 the witness at this point, and I think Ms. Javier has gone to the AV
25 booth. And maybe the usher could assist.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Usher. Could you assist Ms. Javier.
2 MS. EDGERTON: It's a series of documents. Actually, a collection
3 of two groups, bearing the ERN number 00577933 to 00577938, with one
4 single page at the end with a different ERN number, 02100578. All dated
5 22 October 1992. If that could be given a number.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: This document will receive the number P412 -- 11,
9 MS. EDGERTON:
10 Q. Now, Mr. Music, in your -- in paragraph 11 of your statement from
11 1993, you noted that you were transferred to Svrake on 23 October 1992; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Music, did you have an opportunity to look at these two
15 documents yesterday?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you can read Cyrillic, Mr. Music?
18 A. A bit. I prefer the Roman alphabet, but I can read Cyrillic too,
20 Q. Were you able to -- you reviewed these documents. Were you able
21 to understand what was contained in them?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. Turning to -- having looked at these documents, then,
24 Mr. Music, could you, for the Court, tell us what these documents are.
25 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, just in relation to that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MS. LOUKAS: The document speaks for it was, and the witness not
3 having been someone who has, prior to being interviewed by the Prosecution
4 citing these documents, it seems to me there's very little -- no probative
5 value in relation to that last question.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It depends what the following questions will
7 be. I take it, Ms. Edgerton, an explanation in presence of the witness
8 might not be the most appropriate thing to do.
9 Let me first ask: Mr. Music, do you read or understand any
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Do I take it that you really do not understand -- you
13 cannot follow a conversation, you cannot read a line in English.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please assist and ask the
16 witness to take off his headphones.
17 Ms. Edgerton, what in the next questions would be such that the
18 witness could cast a specific light on these documents?
19 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I asked the question clumsily. I can
20 offer the same details that I was hoping to elicit from the witness. This
21 purports to be a document dated 22 October 1992, or several documents
22 under that date, the first being a letter from minister Momcilo Mandic to
23 the president of the Presidency of the Republika Srpska, the president of
24 the RS, the chairman of the Assembly and the prime minister, the second
25 being a report on the situation in prisons and collection camps for
1 prisoners of war, also with the same date.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. But what could this witness
3 add to that? I mean apart from -- if his testimony is that -- well, let's
4 say he was detained in place X or Y and if that same place appears in this
5 letter, then even without asking the witness, the Chamber is still able to
6 see that his testimony seems to correspond with what's in this letter.
7 But what could the witness add, apart from that?
8 MS. EDGERTON: Simply that, Your Honour, in fact he will confirm
9 that he was one of the prisoners of war accommodated in the Hadzici sports
10 centre, as set out in paragraph 10, I think it is, of the first report.
11 And with regard to the last document, letter to the Serbian municipalities
12 of Hadzici and Ilidza, signed by minister Momcilo Mandic, directing that
13 these detainees be transferred to Svrake, he can confirm that his transfer
14 to Svrake took place immediately after the date of this letter.
15 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that, I can indicate
16 that the bundle of documents we received, and I'm just confirming with
17 Ms. Cmeric, has two documents with translations, not the third document
18 that Ms. Edgerton is referring to.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just have a look. What I -- yes. But the
20 third document might be the one that was just given to us and not yet
21 attribute a number. Is that correct? Then it should have been given to
22 the Defence as well. Is that the document, the 22nd of October, 1992?
23 MS. EDGERTON: I see that it is, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you receive that, Ms. Loukas? It was just
25 handed out to us now, a document with a number -- well, English
1 translation, last four digits is 0578, which is an ET number.
2 MS. LOUKAS: I think we're getting it now, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Take your time to have a look at it.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, in view of the response given by
6 Ms. Edgerton, is there any further submission?
7 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that last document.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MS. LOUKAS: Just one correction in relation to the English.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MS. LOUKAS: That very last document in the B/C/S refers to prelog
12 attachment, but the translation is argument number 48.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Prelog means attachment?
14 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Prelog means attachment?
16 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. But the English translation is
17 argument. So there's been a mistranslation there.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And then I see that it says number 4, 48, whereas I
19 can see if broj stands for number, then I see 48 but not 4, 48.
20 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. So that's the issue. It's just
21 a mistranslation in terms of attachment to argument in the English.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then, Ms. Edgerton, it bears the page 623
23 and it seems to be an attachment number 48. To what?
24 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, it looks to me like -- I have an
25 English translation of the same document without these handwritten
1 annotations at the top, bearing a different ERN number. So I don't know
2 that I'm able to assist except to say that it appears we have two separate
3 copies in our systems of the same document, one with handwritten
4 annotations and the other without.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then preferably the English translation
6 should correspond with the version that is provided in original. So
7 you're working from a different document.
8 Ms. Loukas, could we proceed on the basis that the Chamber
9 expects, in view of the answer just given by Ms. Edgerton that she might
10 come up with a document where we start with Republika Srpska and whereas
11 623 and the prelog number doesn't appear and where we have a different ERN
12 number. She has an original. Ms. Edgerton, could you give me the
13 original for one second that you're working from? Because then I can
14 compare whether it looks more or less the same and then ...
15 Yes, Mr. Usher. Could you please assist Ms. Edgerton.
16 MS. EDGERTON: I think, Your Honour, that we all might have the
17 same original, but I might have a translation of a different document.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see you have -- yes. Your translation was a
19 different ERN number, and your translation does not correspond with the
21 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour. We should rectify that as soon as
22 possible. And it appears there's two copies of the same document,
23 possibly retrieved from different individuals or different locations. And
24 I'll make sure the matter is rectified.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Usher, could you please return this to
1 Ms. Edgerton.
2 Ms. Loukas.
3 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. Now that that translation error
4 has been clarified and we look forward to the clarification in relation to
5 the documents, the question Your Honour asked me in relation to whether
6 there was any response in light of Ms. Edgerton's response on this
7 question of the documents that are sought to be put to the witness. Your
8 Honour, I would submit that the position put by the Prosecution does not
9 in any way detract from the argument that I have made, and that is,
10 firstly, the documents speak for themselves. If there is any inferences
11 to be drawn, they are, of course, to be drawn by Your Honours --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MS. LOUKAS: -- in the usual course. In the circumstances, it
14 appears quite clear that the witness can in no way add anything to the
15 question of the documents.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first of all, I don't think, and I'm now
17 referring to the information Ms. Edgerton gave us. I don't think that
18 this witness could tell us anything about the reporting as such.
19 MS. EDGERTON: No.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, and we do not need, as a matter of fact,
21 this witness to tell us that if he reads in a report that there was a
22 detention facility in Hadzici and if he has testified that -- and even
23 that it's in the sports centre, where we have seen a photograph of that
24 sports centre, and where this reports says that, that if the witness would
25 conclude that it most likely would be the same, then we even do not need
1 the witness to come to a -- at least it would allow us to come to a
2 similar conclusion, not saying that we do, but ... So to that extent ...
3 On the other hand, Ms. Loukas, then we still have the problem on
4 how this document could be introduced. Would the Defence in any way
5 object to the admission of this document if it would be more or less clear
6 where it comes from?
7 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, my objection is based on the fact
8 that it is inappropriate for this particular document to be dealt with
9 through this witness. It's also clear, Your Honour, that we're dealing
10 with a document that does have a signature, does apparently have a stamp
11 in the B/C/S version, but is obviously a document to be dealt with through
12 another witness at another time, considering the person who has signed it
13 and the witnesses to come, Your Honour. And in those circumstances, it's
14 certainly not a document to be dealt with through this witness.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if you say that we could draw our own
16 conclusions, then of course we would need the document to be in evidence.
17 Therefore, I'm just inquiring whether there would be a chance to have this
18 document -- I'm not saying that it would be the proper way to introduce it
19 through this witness.
20 Then the second document is a bit different. Let me ...
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, the Chamber comes to the conclusion
23 that the witness can testify of what he experienced, and that is his
24 detention and his detention in Hadzici and when he was transferred.
25 That's all fine. But he really could not add anything to these documents.
1 So, therefore, it's not a proper way to introduce these documents, through
2 this witness. I leave it open whether they could be introduced without a
3 witness at all or just supported by some information, where they come
4 from, perhaps after you've given this information to the Defence and see
5 whether it would still be necessary to call any witness to testify about
6 the source of these documents. But this witness would not be a proper one
7 to introduce these documents into evidence. So I'm not saying anything
8 about the relevance. The Chamber is not saying anything about whether
9 they could be introduced or not. But at this moment, you were asking the
10 witness for the obvious, I would say. If you know his testimony, if you
11 know the document, this witness is not in a special position, I would say,
12 to draw these inferences. So therefore, this is not a rejection of the
13 document, but at least a non-admission at this moment through this
14 witness. Please proceed.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Understood, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And then I also think that we should reverse the
17 attribution of the number to this document, Mr. Registrar, so that P411
18 would be for the next document rather than for this one. Ms. Edgerton,
19 the other document, the photograph, was already in evidence, so we don't
20 have to deal with that number. It doesn't need any change.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
23 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MS. LOUKAS: -- just before Ms. Edgerton proceed, just for the
1 record, I can indicate that -- and we obviously don't need to deal with it
2 at this point, but I do want to place it on the record. There are
3 significant translations errors with the documents we're dealing with that
4 we've been dealing with right now. I want to place that on the record
5 before we move on.
6 JUDGE ORIE: What we do is invite Ms. Edgerton to review the
7 translation if she wants to come back with this document. The invitation
8 is there, Ms. Edgerton.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps during the next break, Ms. Loukas, you could
11 assist Ms. Edgerton in pointing at what the problems are.
12 MS. LOUKAS: As Your Honour pleases.
13 MS. EDGERTON: That would bring us to the last -- if the witness
14 could put his earphones back on.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for your patience, Mr. Music. Please
16 proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, that brings us to the last two items,
18 the intercepts, and I'm told by Mr. Hannis that before playing them we
19 need a five-minute break in which the technicians have to come in and do
20 something technical.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. So therefore you suggest that
22 we have a break now. Yes. Let's then have a five minutes' break, and if
23 everyone could remain standby. We'll have a break for five minutes.
24 --- Break taken at 11.48 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.06 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, have all the technical problems been
3 MS. EDGERTON: So I've been told. And there's been a rehearsal
4 and we're prepared to --
5 JUDGE ORIE: At least I do not hear. So if you put on your
6 microphone, then the first technical problem is solved.
7 MS. EDGERTON: The first -- and as I said without the microphone,
8 there's been -- Ms. Javier has done a rehearsal and it looks like we'll be
9 ready to play the intercepts now.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I take it that we follow the same procedure
11 as we did before, that if it goes too far, the interpreters are
12 interpreting on the basis of the written text, and at the same time, the
13 other interpreter, by following, will see whether there are any
14 inconsistencies, the procedure that has been elaborated before. Please
16 MS. EDGERTON: The first intercept now being one, Mr. Music, dated
17 26 June 1992, between Momcilo Krajisnik and Momcilo Mandic.
18 Q. You've listened to this yesterday, and have the same transcript
19 that you reviewed yesterday in front of you again; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. We can begin.
22 [Intercept played]
23 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
24 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
25 Miljana: Hello. Minister, how are you.
1 Momcilo MANDIC: All right. How are you.
2 Miljana: Just a moment, please. The president would like to talk
3 to you.
4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Hello.
5 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes.
6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Mandic?
7 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right. Are you a traitor like everybody
10 Momcilo MANDIC: God forbid.
11 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes?
12 Miljana: Minister, the connection broke up.
13 Momcilo MANDIC: Something at your end ...
14 Miljana: You can, laughing.
15 Momcilo MANDIC: From the village up there, and then you got cut
17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Hello.
18 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Momo?
20 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, president?
21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: What was it?
22 Momcilo MANDIC: Probably something at your end.
23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: The moment I told you and you betrayed it, the
24 line got cut off.
25 Momcilo MANDIC: God forbid.
1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Ah.
2 Momcilo MANDIC: I would not do it.
3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Momo, tell me, how does it go?
4 Momcilo MANDIC: Well, I'm not up to date with what is going on in
5 that lower part, the main one, but as for this one, it is going well.
6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: ... these haven't come in at all.
7 Momcilo MANDIC: Not at all?
8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Not at all.
9 Momcilo MANDIC: I would not know anything about that.
10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: This is a shame, a shame.
11 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Two things. I actually wanted to see if
13 Stanisic was there, to see with him what is happening with this, so it
14 means that what we agreed upon was not respected.
15 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: There is still a half chance today, and
17 tomorrow it will be finished.
18 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: It's a big problem with Alija. Has that one
20 been finished. That is awful. As of today we finish it all, you know.
21 Momcilo MANDIC: Here, there is something pounding.
22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Huh?
23 Momcilo MANDIC: It could be heard that they pound.
24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes. That is -- has he made it down there or
25 not? It's all over now. Secondly, have you released the one I told you
1 about by any chance?
2 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, I have.
3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes?
4 Momcilo MANDIC: He left for Vrbanja one hour ago.
5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Thank God.
6 Momcilo MANDIC: Karamehmedovic, right?
7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, that's him.
8 Momcilo MANDIC: Well, he is gone.
9 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Let me also ask you about what this Savic
10 Milos, since it's his brother that is really --
11 Momcilo MANDIC: President, I put it on the list. The first next
12 exchange and it will be finished.
13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Check it down there. Do you have anyone
14 there? Can you contact someone?
15 Momcilo MANDIC: There is this Vukovic, a member of the youth
16 organisation, a Serb who is criticising us because we have four hundred
17 prisoners here, you know?
18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Who is criticising?
19 Momcilo MANDIC: I've got four hundred.
20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And who is criticising?
21 Momcilo MANDIC: This Vukovic, Filip, the member of the youth
22 organisation, Serb, he says clean it but for them they are ...
23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Filip Vukovic?
24 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Communist?
1 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes.
2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: What does he want?
3 Momcilo MANDIC: He is the president of that exchange commission.
4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Their commission?
5 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And what is it that he wants?
7 Momcilo MANDIC: War prisoners. No, they are ex for them. They
8 are hardly interested in people. They are interested in ammunition and
9 meat and now we let those women and children go to Vrbanja, go to their
10 own people. He says that's ethnic cleansing, what we do ...
11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: He does.
12 Momcilo MANDIC: Here ... When ... I will fucking --
13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And where is he now?
14 Momcilo MANDIC: Somewhere there. I do not know.
15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: With them, isn't he?
16 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: That means he is theirs?
18 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes, yes.
19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: God, traitors all around.
20 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes.
21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good, Momo. Look, please do call him. I
22 would like to help Savic. It's his brother in stake.
23 Momcilo MANDIC: First exchange, I will take care of that.
24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good, Momo.
25 Momcilo MANDIC: And that man, is he gone?
1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Momo, let me ask you something.
2 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Whom would we appoint for the republic [sic]
5 Momcilo MANDIC: Avlijas Slobodan.
6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Avlijas Slobodan?
7 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well is that --
9 Momcilo MANDIC: It is, president. Here, there is a man who knows
10 everything who is from here.
11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I know him.
12 Momcilo MANDIC: So, you do know him?
13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good. If he was pro ... Judge ...
14 Momcilo MANDIC: He was medj ... He was in my ministry, however,
15 he is skilled, capable, he knows many of those people, and the place does
16 not hold him. I think he is the man for it.
17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Kovac Slobodan. This one cannot.
18 Momcilo MANDIC: Kovac Slobodan? What.
19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good.
20 Momcilo MANDIC: Already.
21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: You should draft that proposal and then send
22 it from here.
23 Momcilo MANDIC: Deal.
24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right.
25 Momcilo MANDIC: Bye.
1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Come on, go back to work. You are hardly
2 there yourself ... Really... Listen, you say I will give the fax and you
3 do it straight away and you say I will give the phone and you do it
4 straight away.
5 Momcilo MANDIC: Laughing.
6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We should set you free from this fax
7 because ...
8 Momcilo MANDIC: Don't ... Will come ...
9 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: You don't have to ...
10 Momcilo MANDIC: Skrbo is here. I don't know what to do with him.
11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Don't go to the field now, for action ...
12 Momcilo MANDIC: Laughing ... no, no, no ... President, what are
13 we going to do? Send a commissioner to Kasindol, two -- three men, some
14 Papazi they came to me from Dr. Avramovic from Kasindol. Nobody ever
15 called. They scattered there, doctor. They appoint their own people for
17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And who is that one?
18 Momcilo MANDIC: To Kasindol, the hospital.
19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Who are these people? Where is that from?
20 Momcilo MANDIC: Local community of Kasindol, the Crisis Staff.
21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Is that the municipality, which one?
22 Momcilo MANDIC: No, it's the local community Ilidza. Ilidza is
23 the municipality. Kasindol is local community.
24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And why do they have the commissioner? Why
25 don't they go there?
1 Momcilo MANDIC: No, it isn't. I don't know which ... These
2 doctors came to me. They appointed some ... Divljan Sonja instead of this
3 director ...
4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And how could they do that?
5 Momcilo MANDIC: The Crisis Staff of the local community Kasindol
6 appointed her.
7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Give me, please ...
8 Momcilo MANDIC: And then ... Popovic Koviljka, the cashier, to
9 make an overview to see how the income is being distributed, and income
10 again ...
11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will call Prstojevic to go there or to send
12 someone because he has the Crisis Staff Ilidza, that is Ilidza.
13 Momcilo MANDIC: It's a shame president.
14 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will see that they are taken care of
15 immediately [as interpreted].
16 Momcilo MANDIC: But they are in contact with Prstojevic.
17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: See, then if he does not do anything we'll see
18 to send someone else there.
19 Momcilo MANDIC: They are in some kind of business with that
20 Prstojevic Jevic. They do black marketing together ...
21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: He cannot do anything on his own, he has the
22 committee now, some wonderful people are there, you know. They are not
23 the old ones any more.
24 Momcilo MANDIC: But, doctor, these came, and they whine and
25 cry ...
1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Tell them it will be taken care of properly.
2 Momcilo MANDIC: Because they do not obey. They did not give them
3 a slice of bread.
4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Who?
5 Momcilo MANDIC: Those from the local community because ...
6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Who does not give a piece of bread?
7 Momcilo MANDIC: They would not allow assistance go straight to
8 the hospital Kasindol but only through them. Then they stop that
9 assistance and give them a little. It's a shame.
10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will now ...
11 Momcilo MANDIC: People should be arrested, President.
12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will find Dragan Kalinic to go there and see
13 what needs to be done.
14 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, please, doctor, do that. Here I have five
15 people sitting right across me staring at me and ...
16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Momo, what you promised I will do.
17 Momcilo MANDIC: Good, President.
18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: There is no such minister in the entire
19 planet ...
20 Momcilo MANDIC: Oh, come on, please ...
21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will ...
22 Momcilo MANDIC: So they don't disperse the staff.
23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will, Momo.
24 Momcilo MANDIC: Thank you very much, bye."
25 MS. EDGERTON: Mr. Music, you've listened to that conversation.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you've understood everything you've heard?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, yesterday, before -- after listening to this conversation or
5 while listening to this conversation and before looking at the transcript,
6 were you able to recognise any of the speakers, the voices of any of the
7 speakers in this conversation?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who was that?
10 A. Momcilo Krajisnik and Momcilo Mandic.
11 Q. How were you able to recognise those voices?
12 A. Well, you see, I knew them before the war, before the operations
13 started. As for Momcilo Mandic, I saw him at the Kula several times. He
14 came there where we were given food. My window faced --
15 Q. Mr. Music, if I can just make you step back for a couple of
16 seconds. When you say I knew them before the war, do you mean you had
17 personal acquaintance with them before the war or you had had occasion to
18 hear their voices some other way?
19 A. No. Hearing their voices over TV, things like that.
20 Q. Now, you said that one of the speakers in this conversation was
21 Momcilo Mandic. Did you ever have occasion to see a person who was
22 identified to you as Mandic visit Kula during your detention there?
23 MS. LOUKAS: Again, Your Honour --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, it's entirely clear to me. Again,
25 Ms. Edgerton, you're doing exactly the same, although you use a few more
1 words, but you're doing exactly the same. You're leading the witness in
2 one of the really sensitive issues. And that's done. Not to make the
3 questioning of the Chamber the example for your future conduct, but
4 perhaps you could try to remind how I put a few questions to this witness
5 in relation to visitors in detention facilities and try to do it as
6 neutrally as possible.
7 MS. EDGERTON: He did offer that evidence up before I had
8 interrupted him, in fact, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I noticed that. And that would not be a
10 sufficient justification just to take that then for granted and to feel
11 freely to lead as you did. Please proceed.
12 MS. EDGERTON:
13 Q. Mr. Music, other than --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Other than seeing either of these individuals on TV, did you have
16 occasion to personally see them?
17 A. No. But I know that Momcilo Krajisnik is from Zabrdje, and I have
18 a friend from [indiscernible], that's right above his village, and I know
19 his wife is also a teacher and I know where his house is and everything.
20 I watch television, because they figured prominently even before the war
21 and --
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Music. So that's about Mr. Krajisnik as a speaker.
23 Now, you mentioned that you recognised the voice of Mr. Mandic as a
24 speaker. Other than seeing Mr. Mandic on TV, did you have occasion to see
25 him face to face?
1 A. I had the opportunity of seeing him face to face because he came
2 to Kula, right opposite my window that was facing the canteen. He and his
3 brother. He has a receding hairline and has light-coloured hair and was
4 on the police force before the war. I know everything. So I had the
5 opportunity of seeing him then, but not after that.
6 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Music, you said that you saw him in Kula.
7 Could you tell us how often you saw him during the course of your
8 detention there?
9 A. I cannot give you an exact number because there was a dog tied
10 beneath our window and we did not dare come to the window, and therefore
11 we were not allowed to see them. The guards even threatened that they
12 would beat us if we would come close to the window, because they didn't
13 want us to see who was coming and going.
14 Q. Was it on more than one occasion?
15 A. Several occasions. They either came for coffee or for lunch or
16 for breakfast, whatever. Many of them came. But I was interested in that
17 least of all. I was hoping to have food or something like that. I worked
18 on the 20th of July, 1992, in Ozrenska Street. We were digging trenches
19 and dugouts and then --
20 Q. Mr. Music, you've spoken about your work on Ozrenska Street in
21 your statements which are before the Trial Chamber. I just have, before
22 we get to the next intercept, one other question for you, and it deals
23 with the number of detainees that you were aware of at Kula as of the date
24 of this conversation. How many men were detained, to your knowledge, as
25 of the 26th of June?
1 A. Since they separated 47 people out of the 280, I told you that, so
2 you have the figures. But in the neighbouring buildings, I heard screams
3 and cries, but I don't know how many people were in those buildings.
4 Women, children were crying, people were screaming. They were beating us.
5 They were forcing us to sing different songs, saying this is Serbia.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Music. I think you've answered the question very
7 well. And I think it's time for us to move on to the second conversation
8 that you heard yesterday.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I'd like to ask a few questions about
10 the rather chaotic portions of the testimony until now. But Ms. Loukas,
11 if there's anything you'd like to ...
12 MS. LOUKAS: Well, just very quickly, Your Honour. I can
13 understand what Ms. Edgerton is doing, but it's inappropriate for comments
14 such as "you've answered the question very well." I can understand --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that I do understand that Ms. Edgerton wanted
16 to express that the answer of the witness was sufficient as far as what
17 she -- but let me just ask a few questions first before we move to our
18 next subject.
19 Mr. Music, you told us --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- that, if I understood you well, that you had seen
22 Mr. Mandic several times.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like you to concentrate on the first time you saw
25 him. Where were you --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only saw him in passing, only in
2 passing, as he was entering the canteen.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just first ask you: Where were you when you
4 saw for the first time Mr. Mandic?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since I was beaten quite badly in
6 Kula and --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was standing by the window.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You were standing by the window --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- in a cell or in a room or in a hall? Tell us what
12 the ...
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a room that had windows down
14 the entire wall. There were 25 of us prisoners there.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You were in a room together with 25 prisoners and
16 there was a large window going entirely to the floor or just a little bit
17 up from the floor?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. There were radiators, and then
19 windows were above the radiators. So now you can visualise it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say this window was -- you saw him going to
21 the canteen. Was the canteen in the same building or in a different
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the building opposite. There's
24 about 50 or perhaps 60 metres to it. It was shaped like a horseshoe, and
25 there was a building going all around. That was where the camp is, where
1 it was before the war and everything.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I understand you well that it was not in a
3 different building, but it was in a different wing of the same building,
4 opposite to the wing your room was in?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now try to concentrate on the first time you saw
7 Mr. Mandic going to the canteen.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In camouflage, in camouflage
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. If you wait for the questions, then I'll
11 ask you. I would like to know: Did he arrive walking to that building or
12 by any means of transportation vehicle?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, no means of
14 transportation vehicles came in, because they had a parking-lot elsewhere.
15 So --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that you want to explain your
17 answer, but I'd rather first hear your answer before to receive the
18 explanation. So you say he came walking; is that correct?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He came to the building and the
20 building is longish, about 50 metres, and I saw them walking in. I saw
21 him because I knew him before he was on the police force. I recognised
22 him himself, and then he was saying that that was his brother. Because
23 this man who was the colleague of Avlijas knew that. He knew them.
24 Because he probably used to meet with them.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Where did you meet Mr. Mandic for the first time?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not meet him. He was in the
2 room and he was walking in the opposite direction. And I was as I am
3 here, and they were 50 metres away from me when they were entering this
4 canteen or mess hall or whatever.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have misunderstood your earlier testimony.
6 Let's go back to it. You said: "I saw him because I knew him before. He
7 was on the police force. I recognised him himself --"
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE:: "He was saying that he was his brother." When was
10 he saying to whom that he was --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wasn't saying it.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then please explain, because then I misunderstood
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wasn't saying it. It was this
15 colleague who was visited by -- Judge Slobodan Avlijas said that was his
16 brother. I didn't know the brother. I knew who Mandic was. I cannot say
17 things that I did not know. But for me, it's a silly thing to say that
18 you don't know someone who holds high office in any country. I mean, it's
19 silly. You watch television. You know who is what.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No. The only thing we'd like to know is what exactly
21 you observed, by what means. So you say you knew who Mr. Mandic was
22 because you had seen him on television; is that correct?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the war I followed all of
24 this, so I knew him from before. I did not know his brother, though. I
25 know Krajisnik for many years. I did not know his brother.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to focus on the questions I'm putting to
2 you. So you knew Mr. Mandic only by watching television; is that correct?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the war, I knew him, because
4 he was in the MUP. My cousin worked in the MUP, and different relatives
5 of mine. I knew him. Just -- I knew that Tomo Kovac was in Ilidza in the
6 police force there before --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- try to make a clear distinction between what you
10 have seen and what you know. You understand? I can say that I know who
11 is the mayor of The Hague because I have seen this written down in
12 newspapers. But at the same time, I might never have seen him live. Do
13 you understand what I mean? So you knew what the position of Mr. Mandic
14 was because other people told you and you watched that on television; is
15 that correct?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I follow the newspapers and
17 television, so I know all the faces of people who --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- who are in high positions.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So through the media and through what people told
21 you, you were aware of the positions and of the faces of --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you ever see Mr. Mandic live? Did you ever
24 see him face to face?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In passing, in the town of Sarajevo,
1 before the war, for instance. But I wasn't interested in him at the time.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now let's go back to the first time you saw him
3 when you were in Kula prison. He walked to the canteen; is that a correct
4 understanding of what you told us?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, you're right.
6 JUDGE ORIE: At a distance of approximately 50 to 60 metres; is
7 that a correct understanding?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you saw him at this distance, was it --
10 how did you recognise him? On the basis of what?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I know him. I'm following it
12 all now, too. And I know the property and riches he possesses, I know
13 about the people around him.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me bring you back again. I'm not asking you what
15 you know about Mr. Mandic and whether he's rich or poor. I'm asking you
16 on the basis of what you recognised him at that first occasion when he
17 went to the canteen.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, my colleagues said Mandic is
19 coming in and his brother to have something to eat because the others went
20 down there to clean up. I didn't because I was exhausted. So I didn't.
21 I didn't move around. I had long hair and a beard and not even my friends
22 could recognise me when they took me out to have my hair cut.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's concentrate on the beginning of your answer.
24 You said: "My colleagues said Mandic is coming in and his brother to have
25 something to eat."
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them going into the canteen.
2 Whether they were eating, whether he they just went for a couple of
3 coffee, I don't know. But I saw them coming in and when you're in the
4 camp you just pray to God that you have enough food and freedom. That's
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I fully understand that the position from which
7 you observed what you just told us was not one that you would wish to be
8 in. Now, did your colleagues recognise him and have they drawn your
9 attention to his presence, or did you by yourself, before your colleagues
10 said anything to you, already recognise him?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was standing there, and so were
12 some other of my colleagues. They were standing next to me and we were
13 looking in that direction. And I saw them coming in. I was not
14 interested at all at who was what. But then had this man said there's
15 Mandic and his brother and I had a better looked and recognised him
16 because he had a receding hairline, didn't have much hair up in front and
17 that's when I saw him. I saw him coming in. Otherwise, he didn't come to
18 see me or mistreat me or anything like that or anybody else. So I can't
19 say anything bad about him. I personally -- that's just what happened.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So your colleague drew your attention that the
21 person that was going to the canteen was Mr. Mandic and his brother. Then
22 you looked and you recognised him; is that a correct understanding of your
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Did you have any further information about his visit,
1 reason of the visit, length of the visit, well, whatever?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, let me take you back to an earlier part of your
4 evidence. I have to find the ...
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: When you saw Mr. Mandic and the person who was told
7 that was his brother, were you -- did you have a clear view over the
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how you mean.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, was the view in any way obstructed?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he was walking around there.
12 I said the dog was right underneath the window and the policeman was
13 walking up and down and if he saw us at the door he would beat us and
14 didn't want us to see who was coming in and going up because everybody,
15 the higher officers, had their meals there.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Does that mean that you were not close to the
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was standing next to the
19 window perhaps a metre away. I wasn't -- I didn't dare get right up
20 against the window to avoid having the guard see me. But we looked out of
21 the window all the time. We could not look out the window. If you were
22 interested in something, you would look out. You weren't allowed to move
23 around the room because there were 20 of us lying down on the floor. And I
24 had been beaten a lot. So they said that I should stand up, that it would
25 be better for my condition if I stood up for a while. I don't want to
1 have to go into all these explanations now. But judging by the
2 conversations I would be able to draw those conclusions. I'm not a judge
3 to say who did what, when, how, but ...
4 JUDGE ORIE: What conversations are you referring to?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, with respect to Mandic and all
6 the rest of it. I wasn't able to ask him anything. I was smaller than a
7 dog, as far as they were concerned, because they humiliated us, so they
8 treated us worse than dogs. So I wasn't able to go up to him and ask him
9 something. So you're asking me to tell you something that I just am not
10 able to do.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Now, as far as the other visits are concerned, was
12 your observation of Mr. Mandic a similar one or same distance?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. It's like this, but we
14 were all nervous wrecks because the abuse and mistreatment went on. They
15 wouldn't let us go to the toilet even when we wanted to. So what -- we
16 just had a litre and a half water among the 25 of us. It was general
17 chaos, absolutely chaotic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: My question -- my question, however, was whether you
19 saw him in similar circumstances, that means same distance, same position,
20 approximately, from where you observed him.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we weren't allowed to stand
22 right up to the window. We moved back a metre. So if the guard was
23 walking up and down, he couldn't see us right up at the window.
24 Otherwise, he'd take someone out and mistreat them, beat them. So we
25 tried to steer clear of anything like that. And usually they were the
1 people that came in from elsewhere who did that. Otherwise, the prison
2 administration, they were very decent to us.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, again, I'm just trying to find out, when
4 you told us that at -- when you if it first time saw Mr. Mandic, that you
5 were at some distance, you said also approximately a metre away from the
6 window, whether at the second time this was the same or not.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the same. We weren't allowed
8 to stand right up against the window. I've told you already. I don't
9 want to repeat it ten times. I hope you've understood me.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I certainly have understood that. Do you
11 remember how much time went by between the first and the second time you
12 saw Mr. Mandic?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I couldn't tell you, because I
14 wasn't interested. All I was interested in was to have enough food to eat
15 and for them to let me walk up and down. Who came in, what, how long, I
16 don't know.
17 JUDGE ORIE: How many times all together you saw him?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really couldn't say.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us an estimate? Was it -- well, let's
20 say -- I do understand more than once, but it could be five times, ten
21 times, 20 times, 50 times. Could you give us a more precise answer
22 than -- if you don't know, please tell us.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know. I don't want
24 to mislead you. I don't know how many times.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Even not approximately how many times?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't like to venture a guess.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Did you have any information about the purpose of the
3 visit of Minister Mandic, apart from that you took it from him going to
4 the canteen that he might go to eat there?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's like this; you must
6 understand: If you're a camp inmate, a prisoner, all you're thinking
7 about is to have food and your own personal freedom, even if they beat
8 you. I couldn't pick and choose. I didn't know why he was coming or
9 going and all the rest of it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was he always accompanied by his brother?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Was he accompanied by others when he was -- by
13 another person or by other persons when he was not accompanied by his
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they would come in, more of
16 them. I didn't look to see who, what. They were all the same to me.
17 They were all my enemies. So I didn't -- I never thought I would survive.
18 And had I thought ever that I would survive, then I would pay attention to
19 every detail, because my memory serves me very well. But if you can --
20 I'm just telling you in the briefest possible terms, because it's
21 something that I feel strongly about.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Music, please accept that no one is blaming
23 you for not having seen or perhaps not remembering any details of what
24 happened at that time.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: When you said you didn't know why he was coming, was
2 that an answer to my question that you had no information about the
3 purpose of his visit; you were not told why he was there?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if they take everything away
5 from you, your ID, your papers, you haven't got a radio, you haven't got
6 anything else, how could you know the purpose for them or him coming?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. [Indiscernible] your answer.
8 Ms. Edgerton, you wanted to move to your next subject, but I think
9 we're about to have a break, because it's 10 minutes to 1.00. After the
10 break, I'd -- yes. I would first like to ask the usher to escort
11 Mr. Music out of the courtroom. We have another break, Mr. Music, for
12 approximately 20 minutes.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you
14 [The witness stands down]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, first of all, do you have any idea on
16 how much time you'd still need for examination-in-chief?
17 MS. EDGERTON: One or more intercept, two questions.
18 JUDGE ORIE: One more intercept, two questions. So approximately
19 15 minutes, if at least the Chamber doesn't interfere.
20 Then one of the issues that will then arise is whether we could
21 start with the cross-examination, and we understood, Ms. Loukas, that you
22 are taken by surprise as far as the information of the presence of
23 Mr. Krajisnik in the police station is concerned.
24 MS. LOUKAS: Well, the witness's evidence certainly contained even
25 more surprises thereafter.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, yes. Ms. Edgerton, I take it that the --
2 well, the surprise parts that we have gone through them or are there still
3 even more surprises to ...
4 MS. EDGERTON: To my knowledge, there lies nothing more, I assure
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you're invited to explain to the Chamber,
7 because that might be relevant for the question on whether there's any
8 cross-examination needed or to what extent it is needed, Ms. Loukas, what
9 the OTP considers that it has presented evidence to. Let me just give you
10 an example. If you would say the testimony of this witness -- well, I'll
11 invite you to tell the Court what, in your view -- to what extent, in your
12 view, the -- especially the new elements of the evidence have contributed
13 to the presentation of the Prosecution's case. You'll understand that
14 there are quite a few options. If, for example, it would have been your
15 purpose just to present evidence that Mr. Krajisnik has ever been in that
16 police station, apart from what he did there, but just to prove his
17 presence, that would perhaps be different from his presence with a
18 specific purpose or ... We'd like to know that, because the Chamber wants
19 to, to the extent possible, avoid unnecessary recalling of witnesses, and
20 if a witness would have to be recalled for further cross-examination on an
21 issue which at least is in the eyes of the OTP not the issue they think
22 they have presented evidence on, then of course it would be not of great
24 So you're invited to prepare for that. You'll get those questions
25 after the break. By the way, do it right after the break or after we
1 finish the examination-in-chief. We'll see that.
2 Then we'll adjourn until 10 minutes past 1.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 12.53 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 1.14 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, may I invite you to first answer the
6 question put to you by this Chamber before the break, and that, of course,
7 mainly is in relation to the testimony related to the presence of
8 Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Mandic at places where the witness was detained.
9 MS. EDGERTON: To speak first to the information about Krajisnik's
10 presence at the police station in Ilidza, I just want to underline that we
11 would, through this witness, not be seeking any further than that, the
12 indication of his presence at the station at a date between 23 July and 8
13 September 1992. But over the break, I had some consultations with another
14 member of my team whose knowledge extends to areas other than my own,
15 which is basically limited to Sarajevo, and he said that the fact of his
16 presence is something that, together with other evidence, might go to show
17 knowledge on the part of the accused of a detention facility in -- or in
18 Ilidza at the police station or other detention facilities in the area.
19 But more importantly, in a way, it would eventually be part of an argument
20 or be used with other evidence as part of an argument to show the
21 accused's influence over high-level police officials. My colleague
22 advised me that the date, the time frame of the alleged visit of
23 Mr. Krajisnik to this police station would correspond temporally with the
24 shift of police power from Ilidza up to the north-east part of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Bijeljina. And --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- we have limited information about
2 reason of, well, what is said to be the visit of Mr. Krajisnik, apart from
3 other matters as far as the reliability of the observations. Wasn't the
4 reason that this particular police chief, but perhaps you could tell us
5 what was, according to his evidence, exactly the reason of the visit, as
6 he was told by others, which of course is hearsay, but ...
7 MS. EDGERTON: I understand, and I don't have the transcript to
8 scroll up in front of me, but I understand his testimony to be that
9 Mr. Krajisnik's presence there had to do with the removal of Tomo Kovac,
10 who was at the time the police head there.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Removal, promotion, transfer.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, promotion and removal is not exactly
14 the same.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry. Yes. Promotion.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Promotion, of course, is -- do you know what, in your
17 evaluation, promotion to what? Wasn't it in ministerial post somewhere.
18 MS. EDGERTON: I believe the witness described it as a ministerial
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it's your perception that then the
21 relevance of such a visit would not be primarily that you'd say: I'd like
22 to see who potentially would become a minister, and if it is a person that
23 is a police officer at that time, then the emphasis is rather on the
24 control of the police forces than on being interested to know who is going
25 to be a minister?
1 MS. EDGERTON: We would be relying on -- your indulgence for a
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MS. EDGERTON: It's a little bit of both, in fact.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just put it very sharp. If the person would
6 have to become a minister would have been a -- well, let's say a director
7 of a beer brewery, if you go and see such a person, would that primarily
8 indicate your interest in beer factories or would it rather be interested
9 in persons who become a minister? I know that the comparison, of course,
10 is, as all comparisons, not a perfect one, but ...
11 MS. EDGERTON: Of course, Your Honour, it would represent an
12 interest in the person who is to become a minister. And not being aware
13 of other evidence which might be coming before this Trial Chamber, there
14 may well be other evidence presented and I understand it is the plan to
15 show that, apart from mere interest, that the accused was in effect in a
16 position to assure the promotion and its being effected.
17 JUDGE ORIE: But that's not an inference that you could make on
18 the basis of this evidence.
19 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No. So therefore ... Yes. About the existence of
21 detention facilities, wasn't the evidence of the witness that the visitor
22 might not have even noticed him being there in detention?
23 MS. EDGERTON: He -- yes. He did mention, though, that he was
24 within close proximity of another facility, the graphic arts facility,
25 which in documentation that was under discussion and Your Honour issued a
1 ruling on, is listed as one of the other detention facilities in that
3 JUDGE ORIE: You would say that if you visit a police station in
4 the same area, you should be aware of the existence of a --
5 MS. EDGERTON: I think it's in immediate proximity, in fact,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we have not heard any evidence?
8 MS. EDGERTON: No. I was about to say, the witness said because
9 he was in fact so well hidden you might not have known of his existence
11 JUDGE ORIE: So that also means that from this evidence at least,
12 it's difficult to draw the inference that someone who visited that police
13 station under those circumstances might be aware of any detention at all,
14 apart from that you might perhaps in all police stations expect some
15 detention facilities, but not only the specifics there can stand as this
16 and about any specifics.
17 MS. EDGERTON: As it stands.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As it stands. Yes, that's of course. Then
19 that's about -- if it's the visit of Mr. Krajisnik. And the second issue,
20 the second surprise.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Given -- your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MS. EDGERTON: My submission with respect to the evidence of the
24 visit of Mr. Mandic is that that's far more important and direct evidence,
25 especially in light of the conversation between Krajisnik and Mandic, that
1 would go to show knowledge on the part of the accused of the existence of
2 a detention facility in which civilians who had been cleansed from the
3 municipality were being held.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Therefore --
5 MS. EDGERTON: Far less speculation about that, in fact, I think,
6 Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And -- yes, I do understand. But would it then be
8 mainly on the basis of his visit or on the basis of the telephone
9 conversation intercepted or both or on what would the one add to the
10 information contained in the other?
11 MS. EDGERTON: Corroborative of one another, Your Honour, aren't
12 they? Especially when they're talking about contemporaneous time period.
13 This is a -- it covers a time period in which the witness was in fact
14 detained there. And they will be corroborated by other documentary and
15 witness evidence that's going to form part of the Prosecution case.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may proceed. Mr. Usher, could you please
19 escort the witness into the courtroom.
20 As far as the order of -- I do understand for tomorrow another
21 witness was scheduled. Of course, we have to decide first how to proceed
22 with cross-examination, whether we would invite the Defence to start with
23 that. I might say a few words about it at a later stage of this morning.
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Now we'll be playing one final
2 intercepted conversation for Mr. Music, which has not been played before
3 this Trial Chamber before.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It is not contained on any of the CDs that have been
5 presented into evidence? I see Ms. Javier nodding no. Yes.
6 MS. EDGERTON: And I understand we have yet to deliver the CD.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MS. EDGERTON: But we'll be playing the audio, and you're in
9 possession of the B/C/S and English-language transcripts.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then the transcripts will get in the
11 original language the addition A and the translation will be A.1. Perhaps
12 we could already attribute a number to it, Mr. Registrar, that would be
13 for the CD number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. This document will be then be
15 referenced under reference P411, having indeed a translation in English.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Has a copy been given to the witness?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Not yet. I think -- Mr. Usher, could you give the
19 witness a B/C/S copy.
20 Mr. Registrar, do you have any copies for us? Yes.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. We're going to play now a conversation dated
22 July 1st, 1992, that purports to be between Radovan Karadzic and Momcilo
24 Q. Do you have a copy of the transcript in front of you, Mr. Music?
25 A. Yes.
1 MS. EDGERTON: All right. If we could play the conversation now.
2 [Intercept played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
4 Unidentified female: Hello.
5 Sipcic: Good afternoon, gorgeous.
6 Unidentified female: Good afternoon.
7 Sipcic: Sipcic.
8 Unidentified female: Excuse me?
9 Sipcic: Colonel Sipcic.
10 Unidentified female: Oh, good afternoon. How are you?
11 Sipcic: I'm okay. Thank you.
12 Unidentified female: I'm not used to this form of address, you
14 Sipcic: Tell me, is your boss in?
15 Unidentified female: Yes, the minister is in. Please, hold on,
17 Sipcic: Thank you.
18 Momcilo Mandic: Hello.
19 Sipcic: Hello, Mr. Minister.
20 Momcilo Mandic: Hello, General.
21 Sipcic: Where have you been?
22 Momcilo Mandic: I'm right here. Yesterday I ... You weren't
23 working. You weren't there?
24 Sipcic: What do you mean I wasn't? Yesterday was worst day of my
1 Momcilo Mandic: Either yesterday or the day before. It must have
2 been yesterday you weren't there. Your fellow countryman would have
3 known. Yes, yes. It was around 1200 hours.
4 Sipcic: I was in the field. Will you stop by?
5 Momcilo Mandic: I will.
6 Sipcic: Here, the president wants to talk to you. Hello.
7 Momcilo Mandic: Sure, I'll come by. When will you be free?
8 Sipcic: I'll be here all the time.
9 Momcilo Mandic: All right, I'll come when they are done.
10 Sipcic: All right.
11 Momcilo Mandic: Deal.
12 Sipcic: Hold on, hold on.
13 Momcilo Mandic: I'll see you.
14 Radovan Karadzic: Hello.
15 Momcilo Mandic: Yes.
16 Radovan Karadzic: Good afternoon.
17 Momcilo Mandic: All the best, Mr. President.
18 Radovan Karadzic: What's up Momo?
19 Momcilo Mandic: Well, not much. I've just been to a government
20 session and I'm here now.
21 Radovan Karadzic: Uh-huh.
22 Momcilo Mandic: We're working on an exchange now. We're
23 evacuating some Serbs from Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija.
24 Radovan Karadzic: Oh, that's very important.
25 Momcilo Mandic: Yes.
1 Radovan Karadzic: We'll immediately mobilise those fit for combat
2 and the rest of them...
3 Momcilo Mandic: Yes, yes, we're evacuating them.
4 Radovan Karadzic: How many will there be?
5 Momcilo Mandic: Well, I don't really know. We have many on the
6 list. There are 300 people from Hadzici, Muslims, who have been kept here
7 for seven days. No one's inquired about them, no one seems to care. I
8 don't know what to do.
9 Radovan Karadzic: Why don't --.
10 Momcilo Mandic: No one's interested in them, these Muslims.
11 Radovan Karadzic: Yeah.
12 Momcilo Mandic: So we'll try to exchange them for these people
13 from Hrasnica and ...
14 Radovan Karadzic: Have you found that Croat in Kula for me?
15 Momcilo Mandic: He's not there.
16 Radovan Karadzic: Tomic. He must be in Kula.
17 Momcilo Mandic: President, he's definitely not there. All the
18 Croats are gone. There are no Croats in Kula.
19 Radovan Karadzic: No, no. He was arrested early earlier. He's
20 not in Dobrinja.
21 Momcilo Mandic: President, all Croats have been exchanged. Here,
22 let me check again and I'll call you back in five minutes.
23 Radovan Karadzic: All right. If he's not there, let's then look
24 for him somewhere else.
25 Momcilo Mandic: Well, does the person who is asking about Tomic
1 know where he was taken to, where he was picked up?
2 Radovan Karadzic: There were three brothers. Two of them were
3 released in Ilidza and the third one was kept in Ilidza and transferred to
4 Kula. That's what happened. They were arrested in Ilidza.
5 Momcilo Mandic: President, I'll call you back in five minutes.
6 Radovan Karadzic: All right. Tell me, what was going on, what
7 was I going to say. Do you know if Karlo's people have arrived down
9 Momcilo Mandic: I don't know.
10 Radovan Karadzic: That thing down there should be strengthened,
11 all that ...
12 Momcilo Mandic: Yes, yes, yes. I don't really know, because I
13 just arrived from a government session ...
14 Radovan Karadzic: That thing with the Greeks should be
16 Momcilo Mandic: Uh-huh. I really don't know.
17 Radovan Karadzic: All right.
18 Momcilo Mandic: Our Mico has left, hasn't he?
19 Radovan Karadzic: Well, yes, but I don't know why he's -- after
21 Momcilo Mandic: Well, I don't ...
22 Radovan Karadzic: He's not suitable for this kind of thing.
23 Momcilo Mandic: I don't get this thing, Mr. President.
24 Radovan Karadzic: I mean, there we have, if we need to have
25 someone up there to coordinate things we can. But we need someone to work
1 permanently on the establishment of such a service.
2 Momcilo Mandic: How long will you be there, President?
3 Radovan Karadzic: I'll be here for a while.
4 Momcilo Mandic: I was going to come there.
5 Radovan Karadzic: I'll be here for a while.
6 Momcilo Mandic: I'll be there in half an hour or so and I'll call
7 you back in five or ten minutes.
8 Radovan Karadzic: Deal.
9 Momcilo Mandic: Have a good one. See you."
10 MS. EDGERTON: I just note, I understood the procedure to be that
11 we would have an indication of when the speakers change and we didn't have
12 that. I --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what is usually done, especially since
14 sometimes there were some -- there was some confusion about it. It not
15 having been done, Ms. Loukas, if there would be any submission in relation
16 to what part of the conversation is attributed to what person, then please
17 let us know. Otherwise, we'll take it from the transcript that at least
18 the change in interlocutors is correct.
19 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 MS. EDGERTON:
22 Q. Mr. Music, you've clearly heard everything that was said in this
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, could you tell us: As of July 1st, 1992, how many days had
1 you been at Kula?
2 A. The 1st of July, from the 1st of July until the 21st of July. I
3 spent only three nights in Lukavica and then they transferred us to Kula.
4 But when they transferred us to Kula, we were in two rooms. That means
5 that -- I mean, we who were separate. Rather those 47 were separated and
6 we the rest of us --
7 Q. Mr. Music, sorry. Let me perhaps be a little bit more clear when
8 I ask you this question. In your statements which have been filed with
9 the Trial Chamber, you've said that you were transferred to Kula from
10 Lukavica after two or three days at Lukavica. Is that correct?
11 A. Three nights.
12 Q. So by the 1st of July, then, 1992, how many nights had you been at
14 A. I spent three nights in Lukavica, and then after that I was
15 transferred to Kula. In Kula, they divided us up into two rooms, so it
16 was overcrowded.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, the question was not how many people there
18 were, but by the 1st of July, how many days you had already spent in Kula.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 25th we were transferred, so
20 I was there five or six days. I already stated that on the 30th, they
21 released 75 elderly prisoners.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Music, the question was just about how long you
23 had been in Kula on the 1st of July. You have now answered that question.
24 Ms. Edgerton please put the next question to the witness.
25 MS. EDGERTON:
1 Q. One last question. Were all the men with you during that time
2 from Hadzici?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Music. That concludes the questions that I have.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Before we take any decision on whether to invite
6 Ms. Loukas to start cross-examination at this moment, may I first inquire,
7 Ms. Edgerton: Your next witness, you would prefer to let him wait until
8 whatever is still to be done in relation to this witness has been done
9 or ...
10 MS. EDGERTON: I think Mr. Hannis had better address that point,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Hannis. Perhaps we could invite the witness
13 to take his earphones off at this moment.
14 Mr. Music, we are dealing with a procedural issue that might have
15 some impact on your presence in this courtroom. May I invite you to take
16 your earphones off for a while.
17 Mr. Hannis. Ms. Edgerton.
18 MS. EDGERTON: If you'll excuse me for a moment, Your Honour. I
19 can go and speak with Mr. Tieger, who will be dealing with that next
20 witness. I won't think it will take me more than three minutes to get
21 down there and back.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although of course you could have expected this
23 situation to come up. So a bit of anticipation would -- but let's not
24 lose any more time. If you would please try to get the answer to the
25 question as soon as possible.
1 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, perhaps it might be possible to
2 take a short break and Ms. Edgerton can actually call Mr. Tieger on the
3 phone that's in the courtroom and it might take a little bit less time.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we could have a short break, then.
5 Would three minutes do, Ms. Edgerton? Yes. We'll then have a break for
6 three or four minutes.
7 --- Break taken at 1.38 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.41 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could I invite the witness to take his earphones
12 still off, because it's ... Yes.
13 MS. EDGERTON: I've spoken with Mr. Tieger, who in fact indicates
14 that he's spoken with Mr. Stewart and there's -- Mr. Tieger is not aware
15 at this moment of the location of the next witness. In fact, he could be
16 travelling. He is travelling at this time. So they prefer to hold off
17 and start tomorrow, and I think we'd prefer to finish with this witness at
18 this time.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then it would need a recall of this witness,
20 which is of course a waste of -- and of course what the Chamber is mainly
21 concerned about is to what extent a cross-examination of the witness on
22 the issues involved would contribute -- well, let's say would assist the
23 Defence in lessening the probative value on those issues compared to the
24 situation if the witness would not be cross-examined at all on these
25 issues. Because, to be -- let me try to -- first of all, whatever is said
1 at this moment always is situated in the moment, this very moment. That
2 means that whatever the Chamber would give as its provisional impression
3 would always be an impression that's based on what we've heard until now.
4 And as far as the -- yes, Ms. Loukas. Well, to say that in many respects,
5 and limited to the evidence we have heard on those occasions, I have to
6 convey to the parties that the probative value of the examination-in-chief
7 on these matters is, for various reasons, I would say almost non-existent.
8 And therefore, of course, the Chamber wonders, and perhaps Ms. Loukas
9 could express herself on that, whether the witness could not be
10 cross-examined on the other parts and then whether there would really be a
11 need to influence the provisional mind of the Chamber where, as it may be
12 clear to the parties, it could more likely go in a wrong direction for the
13 Defence than in a good direction for the Defence. Because there's hardly
14 any direction to go there any more. Ms. Loukas.
15 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. Well, I go back to the point I
16 made prior to the witness giving evidence this morning. I indicated that
17 there were in fact two courses in my submission that the Trial Chamber
18 might take. And that is, firstly, to exclude the evidence, in view of the
19 recent nature of the evidence, in fact yesterday, after -- 12 years after
20 the event and after four statements. But my point in relation to that, I
21 think, Your Honour, has of course been strengthened by the nature of the
22 way in which the witness gave his evidence and the additional surprise we
23 were subject to later on. And in those circumstances, Your Honour, and
24 looking at Rule 89(D), I would invite Your Honours -- 89(D), of course,
25 stating a Chamber may exclude evidence if its probative value is
1 substantially outweighed by the need to ensure a fair trial.
2 Your Honour has indicated that the probative value of the evidence
3 in relation to Mr. Krajisnik is at a near negligible level and in those
4 circumstances, Your Honour, I would submit that the evidence should be
5 excluded. Of course, if the evidence is left in, it's of course subject
6 to the provisional nature of the indication that Your Honour has given.
7 It's, of course, also the nature that the fact that the Prosecution
8 insists on the evidence and the fact that they wish to join it up again
9 perhaps at some later point or some part of -- of a tessera of a mosaic,
10 or what have you. So, in those circumstances, Your Honour, I think the
11 only fair approach in terms of when one looks at 89(D) and the balancing
12 exercise that you have to undertake there in terms of probative value and
13 the need to ensure a fair trial, I would submit the only course for the
14 Trial Chamber to take in these circumstances, having heard the witness,
15 having heard the nature of the evidence, having heard the constant
16 amelioration of his evidence, that Your Honours would exclude the
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MS. LOUKAS: And in those circumstances, Your Honour, my
20 cross-examination would be entirely limited. But if this is left open,
21 then, Your Honour, then there must be a cross-examination and there must
22 be a cross-examination that is properly investigated.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand, Ms. Loukas. I can imagine
24 that the Prosecution would take the position that it's not difficult to
25 make a final determination as to the probative value at this moment,
1 because evidence often does not -- stands alone. On the other hand, it's
2 not very attractive to indicate already that this witness would be
3 recalled for further cross-examination on other evidence which we have not
4 heard yet. May I suggest to the parties whether it would be a solution,
5 so that I just can hear your opinion about that - although it has to be
6 brief, because we are close to 2.00 - that this Chamber will decide to
7 exclude that evidence on the relevant portions. We would then identify
8 that exactly. And then to say that the Prosecution could apply for
9 further admission on the basis of evidence we would hear in a later stage
10 and which would change the importance, the relevance of that evidence,
11 since, as I said before, that, as it stands now, it seems to be of a
12 rather low level. But of course, it might not be fully fair to say that
13 it would remain at that level forever, where the OTP has indicated that,
14 in relation with other evidence, it might be more important. But of
15 course we do not know what that evidence is. We do not know when that
16 evidence will come.
17 Could I just have the response of the parties. What if the
18 Chamber would be inclined to act in this way?
19 MS. EDGERTON: It's the inverse of what I was going to propose,
20 that be that Your Honours, given -- your indication of the relatively low
21 probative value at this point, that you leave it in, and if later, as a
22 result of additional evidence, the Defence wishes to recall the witness --
23 JUDGE ORIE: You would try to have it the other way around.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Exactly.
25 JUDGE ORIE: But then of course it would not solve the problem
1 because Ms. Loukas would have to cross-examine on all aspects of it.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And of course that's the practical problem we are
4 faced with at this moment. Ms. Loukas, could you express any view
5 on --
6 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour, I will express a view. I think a
7 provisional exclusion at this point --
8 JUDGE ORIE: No, it would then be exclusion, but not excluding in
9 full a later application to admit it again, or admit it again -- to admit
10 it. And then, of course, not after --
11 MS. LOUKAS: Subject to --
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- yes, that, of course, is certainly -- there would
13 be first an opportunity to -- I mean, before considering that, of course,
14 you would have an opportunity to have this witness recalled and
15 cross-examine him on the relevant portions as well.
16 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. Well, I think that may be an
17 appropriate course, the course that Your Honour has outlined. Exclusion
18 at this point, subject to a possible application by the Prosecution to
19 reintroduce, in addition with subject to that of course the property
20 opportunity for the Defence to cross-examine in the circumstances.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. That, I would say, goes without saying.
22 Okay. The Chamber will consider the matter. How much time would you need
23 for cross-examination with an exclusion of, well, let's say the two
24 visits, more than two visits, but the visits of two persons mentioned?
25 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If we take it out.
2 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, with this evidence excluded, I
3 would have thought I'd come in easily within the hour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MS. LOUKAS: I would have thought between half an hour and an
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could the witness please put his earphones
8 on again.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber decides that the testimony of this
11 witness in relation to the presence of Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Mandic in
12 places where the witness was detained is excluded. At the same time, not
13 excluding the Office of the Prosecutor for an application to have that
14 inserted at a later stage with all the consequences, that is, further
15 cross-examination on those issues by the Defence. The Chamber also would
16 like to, Ms. Loukas to start the cross-examination tomorrow morning at
17 9.00. Since I take it that indeed the Defence was prepared for the
18 cross-examination of what appeared in the statements of the witness until
20 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. Other than the mysteriously
21 appearing further information.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, we'll define more exactly what in the
23 transcript will be excluded, but I think it's clear to the parties.
24 Mr. Music, we'll have to finish for the day. You heard about a
25 decision of the Trial Chamber excluding some of your evidence. Don't be
1 worried about that to the extent that there's anything --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I would like to
3 apologise to Their Honours. But may I just say a word, please? After so
4 many years, I just came to the conclusion now who it was that singled out
5 these 47 men. Can I tell you?
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Music. At this moment, you cannot add
7 anything to your evidence at this moment. Perhaps if there would be --
8 tomorrow further questions will be put to you by Ms. Loukas, and perhaps
9 even a few more questions by Ms. Edgerton as well. I just wanted to let
10 you know that it's --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- that it's for reasons of application of
13 appropriate rules of procedure that this decision was taken and it has got
14 nothing to do with you as a person. I just wanted to emphasise this. May
15 I instruct you, Mr. Music, not to speak with anyone, not with -- well,
16 whether it be members of the Defence team, the Prosecution team, or other
17 citizens, or people passing by, not to speak with anyone about the
18 testimony you have been giving until now and you're still about to give
19 expectantly tomorrow morning. We'd like to see you back at 9.00 tomorrow
20 morning. And unless there are any procedural issues, we'll stand
22 MR. STEWART: Yes, there are.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I see that you are at the right side of
24 the glass again, so --
25 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, yes. In fact, I only came in
1 because I wanted to be an insider rather than an outsider for a few
3 JUDGE ORIE: You're an insider now.
4 MR. STEWART: But since I came to court, Your Honour, I've had
5 some information which took me by surprise. I understand that
6 Mr. Krajisnik has submitted or sent in to the Trial Chamber a - sorry I
7 now can see Judge El Mahdi as well. Good morning, or good afternoon - a
8 CD containing material in relation to a witness whose evidence was heard
10 JUDGE ORIE: I am not aware at this moment, but I've not been here
11 last week, so it --
12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I can short-circuit it this afternoon,
13 given the time. And could I ask this, that I would like to say a little
14 bit more about it but it's perfectly convenient to do it in the morning.
15 If I could ask that the Trial Chamber, by which I include the whole Trial
16 Chamber, if the Trial Chamber would please not look at that CD and not
17 look at that material between now and tomorrow morning and then I can make
18 my submissions in relation to that matter. I think -- I suggest that's
19 the more practical way of dealing with it.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: I verified first of all whether no member of the
22 Trial Chamber has seen the material, apart from looking at CDs is not very
23 interesting, but we have not taken any knowledge of any concept of a CD
24 that supposedly has been sent to us. We'll not do it until tomorrow.
25 MR. STEWART: Would that include the offices of the Trial Chamber
1 as well, Your Honour? We would prefer to make the request --
2 JUDGE ORIE: I cannot confirm to you that they have not seen it.
3 MR. STEWART: I understand, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: What I could do is instruct them if they have not
5 seen it, to refrain from any further attention to it, and if they have
6 seen it, not to tell us about it.
7 MR. STEWART: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And to keep it --
9 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, would be my request. They can't
10 undo what they've done, so thank you for that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That will be their instructions for this
13 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: We'll stand adjourned until tomorrow morning, 9.00.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.58 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of
17 November 2004, at 9.00 a.m.