1 Friday, 26 November 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in the courtroom and just
6 outside the courtroom assisting us.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus
9 Momcilo Krajisnik.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Before I'll ask the witness to be escorted into the courtroom, I
12 would like to ask a few questions which might have some relevance for
13 the -- this might have some relevance for decisions taken at a later stage
14 about whether or not the Defence is instructed -- will be instructed to
15 start to cross-examine the witness or not to start to cross-examine the
17 Mr. Tieger, could you explain a bit more, and I conveyed to the
18 Defence that I instructed our staff to already try to find out whether
19 anything was known about it. Could you say a bit more about the recently
20 disclosed material. I do understand that when we started approximately
21 with an estimate of approximately 25.000 pages that it was later brought
22 to 1600 up to 2000 pages [sic]. To what extent was that material new to
23 the Defence? And of course, you'll have an opportunity to respond,
24 Mr. Stewart, if we have received answers from the Prosecution.
25 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. I undertook an analysis of the
1 material that was disclosed last night. I can go over the methodology, if
2 the Court wishes, but the bottom line is that I estimate that between 200
3 and 400 pages were new.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, is that something you would consider to
5 be a proper estimate?
6 MR. STEWART: I have no idea, Your Honour, to be frank, because,
7 after all, this figure has just been presented to me. I haven't been
8 asked to do that exercise. But as far as new material is concerned, it
9 perhaps is necessary to be clear about what -- what's within the
10 definition of new.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll ask Mr. Tieger what he -- how he
12 identified what is new and what's not new.
13 MR. TIEGER: Well, I attempted to go about it in a couple of ways,
14 Your Honour. First of all, I printed out all of the documents. I didn't
15 have time to go through all of them. I went through the first couple
16 hundred of the 380 documents that were disclosed. Of those, I found that
17 approximately 70 had been previously tendered through other witnesses.
18 And according to disclosure logs, about 90 per cent of them, the ones that
19 I had looked at, had been previously disclosed, often times repeatedly.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you give us any indication -- when I'm
21 talking about new, well, let's say, I think for the scheduling of
22 Mr. Mandic to testify in November was first raised early October. I think
23 it was on the 13th of October that the matter first appeared. Was
24 there -- if you're talking about old and new, would you consider old to be
25 disclosed, well, before early October of this year?
1 MR. TIEGER: Correct.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stewart, is there any need to further -- I
3 just want to make a separation between the time period which -- prior to
4 the first indications of scheduling Mr. Mandic for November and after that
5 period of time. Do you have any observations to make on the answer given
6 by Mr. Tieger?
7 MR. STEWART: Well, I have a simple observation, Your Honour,
8 which is this: That we did receive some substantial disclosure of an
9 enormous number of documents on the 29th of June of this year, and I
10 believe - I'm simply telling Your Honours as much as I know and
11 understand - I believe that a significant amount of this material was
12 included in that disclosure. So in that technical sense, it's not new.
13 And, Your Honour, I entirely accept, we've accepted throughout this case,
14 that a very great deal of material is not new in the absolute technical
15 sense, that it has been disclosed to the Defence at some point since the
16 case began. We say in the end that's not actually the test. But in
17 answer to Your Honour's relatively narrow question, but Your Honour will
18 be aware that when we received that disclosure on the 29th of June, first
19 of all, Mr. Mandic was not a witness. And secondly, there was no question
20 of any portion of that disclosure being identified as attributable or
21 relevant to Mr. Mandic. So we -- it's -- I don't know off the top of my
22 head. It was a very large amount of material, Your Honour.
23 So I'm just answering Your Honour's relatively narrow question in
24 those relatively narrow terms, that as far as I'm aware, yes, in that
25 technical sense of the word "new," a great deal of this material is not
1 new. I haven't checked the figures and gone through the material in the
2 same way. But, Your Honour, there's a lot more to be said, may I simply
3 observe, on the question of preparedness to cross-examine.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I would first like to put some questions.
5 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. Well, that's my answer as
6 best as I can do. I appreciate it's not a very wonderful, detailed,
7 informative answer, but I'm doing my best, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It's at least a short answer, Mr. Stewart.
9 Mr. Tieger, how much of that material will be tendered in evidence
10 through this witness, approximately? I'm not asking for exact page
11 numbers, but approximately. Because if these were 1.600 pages, does that
12 mean that we can expect all 1.600 to be tendered or ...
13 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour. That is not the case. And I think
14 it's -- there are approximately 60 exhibits that will be tendered.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Amounting to approximately how many pages, just a
16 rough estimate.
17 MR. TIEGER: I would estimate 200.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What was the reason to disclose or even
19 re-disclose material that would not be tendered through this witness
20 exactly in this, well, let's say the last few days before the witness was
22 MR. TIEGER: Well, those materials, first, I wouldn't describe
23 them as being tendered in the last few days.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I think the list Mr. Stewart gave us is about -- ends
25 on the 22nd of November, I think. You've seen that list, which --
1 MR. TIEGER: Those are re-disclosure --
2 JUDGE ORIE: It's a couple of days, but, well, relatively close to
3 the day of the appearance of the witness in this court.
4 MR. TIEGER: I would say it follows under the rubric of no good
5 deed goes unpunished, Your Honour. We try to disclose to the Defence the
6 exhibit list, and the final disclosure in fact was the history of the
7 disclosure process, which included all the material from the beginning
8 down to the narrower portions that were received at the end. I had hoped
9 that had been made clear in the earlier discussion. Perhaps it was not.
10 But we progressively narrowed it down.
11 As for some of the material that had been previously disclosed
12 being disclosed at the beginning, Mr. Stewart has indicated to the Court
13 earlier that there is a lot of material in this case. There is. It
14 seemed to us it would be helpful to identify -- since we had been through
15 the process of preliminarily looking at the material to share with him the
16 benefit of some of that preliminary review and winnow down initially from
17 the vast body of material, through which he might want to look, and might
18 be faster at it than us, but indicate the results of what we had found,
19 and at least exclude some of the universe of materials through which he
20 might otherwise be looking. I think I indicated that earlier as well.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because it appears from the list provided to us
22 by Mr. Stewart that the exhibit list and the final exhibit list, I think,
23 were both given to the Defence on the 22nd of November. Is that a correct
24 understanding? That's at least what I read from that list.
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 MR. TIEGER: I can check the history, but I know the preliminary
2 exhibit list was distributed considerably earlier than November 22nd.
3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm trying to be helpful. It was on
4 that note. Could I just say, Your Honour, we tried to make it
5 consistently clear and repeat it that our position on this does not
6 involve an attack or criticism on the Prosecution. That remains the
7 position. I want Mr. Tieger through the Trial Chamber to understand that.
8 But, Your Honour, so far as the exhibit list is concerned, it was on that
9 schedule which I handed up a few days ago. We were provided with a first
10 exhibit list, or draft exhibit list, whatever it was, including Rule 66
11 material as well, on the 15th of November. We had another one later that
12 day, two at different times on the 17th, and then two on the 22nd. So
13 that was the history of those, well, presumably, continually refined
14 lists, ending up with the last one on the 22nd, which was, well, Monday
15 this week.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. I should have looked better at the list,
17 where I mentioned the two disclosures of the exhibit list on the 22nd, it
18 now turns out that there were earlier ones on the 15th of November, two of
19 them, one on the 17th of November.
20 Are there considerable changes in the 15th of November list and
21 the 22nd of November list? Perhaps we could ask Mr. Tieger, because he
22 certainly has updated -- will have updated them. I mean, it's just adding
23 one or two or taking out one or two or --
24 MR. TIEGER: It's deleting, for the most part, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Deleting for the most part.
1 MR. TIEGER: Primarily, yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'd like to give an opportunity to briefly
3 address the matter, Mr. Stewart. If you could do that, come to the core,
4 to the problem right away. First of all, try to do that in five minutes.
5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I can do one of two things. I can
6 assert and tell Your Honour that the Defence is simply not ready to
7 proceed with Mr. Mandic. We are simply unable to have dealt with the
8 volume of material. I can assert that in 30 seconds.
9 Your Honour, if I am to detail what we have received, to put it in
10 proper context and explain to Your Honour, that is bound to take more than
11 five minutes. There is no way I can do it in five minutes. It also gets
12 into that rather difficult area, Your Honour, where, first of all, we
13 would not be very happy to be disclosing to the public and then
14 potentially -- because after all the witness is a member of the public for
15 these purposes. Nobody can stop the witness from finding out what's said
16 in court.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. If you would prefer to deal with it
18 in private session, we'll now turn into private session.
19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, beyond that, there's a question -- I'm
20 not asking for that immediately, Your Honour, until we get to that point.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just offering it.
22 MR. STEWART: I know. Indeed, Your Honour. I'm very grateful for
23 the offer and, in relation to that particular point, would accept it. But
24 before we do go into private session, I have the further point,
25 Your Honour, that beyond what we would not be particularly happy to
1 have -- well, not be happy at all to have disclosed to the public in that
2 way, there are points which we're not particularly happy to disclose to
3 the Prosecution either. Why -- I ask rhetorically, why should we,
4 Your Honour, in explaining about cross-examination and cross-examination
5 material, why should we advertise everywhere we're going to the
6 Prosecution, who haven't even finished examining the witness?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. On the other hand, I take it
8 that both the Prosecution and Defence would like to know whether we'll --
9 whether the Chamber will follow the Defence in its assertion that it
10 cannot cross-examine, or at least not start to cross-examine the witness.
11 If that decision would be taken at the end of the examination-in-chief of
12 this witness, that might well be early next week, because I understand
13 from the Prosecution that it would take today and perhaps one or two hours
14 next week, and that's more or less in accordance with the scheduling. But
15 then, of course, there is a risk, Mr. Stewart, that if the Chamber would
16 then decide that you should start your cross-examination, that you'll
17 not -- well, at least you know it only then and you would not know it by
18 the end of this day. But I leave it up to you. If you say, now, "I'd
19 rather not discuss this matter any further, apart from asserting that
20 you're not ready to cross-examine the witness and leave it to the Chamber
21 to decide whether or not the Defence is invited to at least start the
22 cross-examination, then leave it --
23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I would have, as Your Honour very
24 sympathetically recognises. Of course we would have a strong preference
25 for knowing today, because we've got plenty else that we can usefully do.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then what is your suggestion? Would it be acceptable
2 for the Prosecution to hear -- because I do understand that to lay the
3 whole of the cross-examination on the table now might not be something
4 that -- well, that still could influence the line of examination-in-chief
5 of this witness. So we're a bit in a dilemma.
6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I try and short-circuit it, because
7 I mention that as a possible problem. But it may not be a practical
8 problem, because, Your Honour, what I -- there's a limited area and
9 Your Honour says, "lay the whole of the cross-examination," it follows
10 from what I said. That's the one thing I'm not in a position to do. But
11 the -- but Your Honour --
12 JUDGE ORIE: You're invited to slow down, Mr. --
13 MR. STEWART: My enthusiasm to have us move on, Your Honour, I
14 will now curb or restrain.
15 Your Honour, what I propose to do, then, if I may, it will be a
16 while until I got to the point where I was getting to something so
17 sensitive that I was especially nervous about the Prosecution hearing it.
18 I can indicate to Your Honours, but preferably in private session, for the
19 reasons I've given, the scale and nature of the material for quite a long
20 time before I get to the point where I don't wish Mr. Tieger's and other's
21 ears to hear it. It's probably not a difficulty, and it may be,
22 Your Honour, that I will have convinced the Trial Chamber before I need to
23 get into that sensitive area of the point.
24 JUDGE ORIE: How much will you need if we now turn into private
25 session to --
1 MR. STEWART: As best I can do, Your Honour, from the notes I've
2 got and my knowledge of the material, I may have to consult Ms. Cmeric
3 from time to time, maybe something like 15 minutes or so, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, we'll turn into private session, and
5 you'll have 15 minutes.
6 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 8827-8844 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session again.
4 Let me ask one final thing. If the Chamber, in order to get a
5 better impression on one -- at least one of the issues raised, that is,
6 the new material, new Article 68 material, the 20 items of which 12 are
7 new, would the parties oppose against Chamber looking at it, not for its
8 content, but mainly in order to get an impression of what type of material
9 that is? Mr. Stewart.
10 [The witness entered court]
11 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I feel more comfortable if I had
12 a chance to look at it myself. Most of the items are in B/C/S. I'm not
13 quite sure --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You told us. Only two were in English.
15 MR. STEWART: Yes. So I don't know exactly how it's going to
16 work, Your Honour. But I'm sure Your Honour understands that first
17 observation I just made in response to what you just said.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Tieger, would you -- yes, I do understand
19 that you'd rather first look at it yourself, but at the same time you're
20 not in a position to do so because you can't read it.
21 Mr. Tieger, what would be your position? Even without reading it,
22 I mean perhaps even better without reading it. You can get an impression
23 of what type of material that is.
24 MR. TIEGER: I don't have an objection, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
1 Mr. Mandic, I apologise for not -- for continuing with procedural
2 issues when you entered the courtroom. Thank you very much for your
3 patience. The same to you, Mr. Tomic.
4 Mr. Mandic, may I remind you that you're still bound by the solemn
5 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony. Mr. Tieger
6 will now resume his examination-in-chief.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
8 WITNESS: MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
12 Examined by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]
13 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mandic.
14 A. Good afternoon.
15 Q. At the conclusion of yesterday, we had listened to an intercepted
16 telephone conversation which was P292, KID 31469. I'd ask if the
17 transcript could be placed in front of Mr. Mandic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think -- we received the document. It's the 25th
19 of June, 1992.
20 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. TIEGER:
23 Q. Mr. Mandic, just to remind you, that was the conversation between
24 you and Mr. Krajisnik on the 25th of June, 1992, during which he raised
25 the issue of Milos Savic's brother and his family. If I could ask you to
1 turn to the second page of the B/C/S transcript, the transcript in front
2 of you, and also the second page of the English translation. You state to
3 Mr. Krajisnik: "Mr. President." And then he responds, "Yes, that first
4 part has been ocistiti [phoen]. It was done today."
5 Do you recall, Mr. Mandic, what area, what part was being referred
6 to in that conversation?
7 A. I cannot remember, Mr. Prosecutor.
8 Q. And what did you mean when you said, if you recall, that it had
9 been "ocistiti," either mopped up or cleansed?
10 A. I don't know if we were referring to some barricades or obstacles
11 that were up there near Lukavica. I can't remember what it refers to.
12 Q. Do you know who Mr. Krajisnik was referring to when he said, "Did
13 they leave?"
14 A. Probably referred to the removal of some obstacles so that people
15 had free passage both ways. I believe that it was an obstacle in
16 question, but I cannot remember what it was exactly about. Because it's
17 obvious that people were moving around and crossing over.
18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we believe -- when I say we, it's the
19 sort of royal we, because it's Ms. Cmeric who has this belief. We believe
20 that the translation, "did they leave" is perhaps not the fully correct
21 translation of the B/C/S.
22 MR. TIEGER: I suppose that points out again the wisdom of asking
23 after the intercept is played whether it's correct, but if that wasn't
24 identified before, I guess we need to know it.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, we're now at the point where it's --
1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, in fact, the human limitations of
2 picking up such a large number of difficulties on these intercepts.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Cmeric would you please read that part so
4 that we can verify whether the -- and you're now reading which box of the
5 second page? Let me just try to locate it.
6 MS. CMERIC: Your Honour, it's page -- it's box 11 from the top of
7 the page. Mr. Krajisnik is the speaker.
8 JUDGE ORIE: But --
9 MS. CMERIC: That's in B/C/S, page 2 in B/C/S.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's where it starts with "Jeli" [phoen]. Is
11 that correct.
12 MS. CMERIC: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please read that aloud.
14 MS. CMERIC: The relevant line is "Jeli Atisula" [phoen].
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note this could be translated in at
16 least three ways. One would be "has it gone" "has it been dispatched,"
17 "has it been taken care of?"
18 JUDGE ORIE: And all three translations I hear the word "it"
19 rather than "they." Is that a correct understanding?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it is.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could not be "they." I see the interpreters nodding
23 Mr. Tieger, that line does not refer to "they," but at least to
24 "it," and then you have heard the three possible translations.
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we make it clear. That was the point.
1 So far as the three possibilities are concerned, with some slight
2 reservation about number three, we have no big issue about that. It was
3 the "it/they" point which has now been resolved. Thank you to the
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
6 MR. TIEGER:
7 Q. Mr. Mandic, was it common for Mr. Krajisnik to contact you about
8 details of this nature, traffic barriers, obstacles, and so on?
9 A. Yes, it was. I can give you an example. At the time when the war
10 broke out and when the roads were blocked by the warring parties, a road
11 was being constructed near the place Trljevic [phoen] and there was heavy
12 machinery there, to allow people to move from the lower part of Sarajevo
13 towards Pale through the wood. So these were all everyday problems, and I
14 informed Mr. Krajisnik about them regularly. So it is possible this was
15 the case as well, but I cannot remember what this particular conversation
16 refers to. So over -- to Trljevic, Lukavica, and Bistrica, there was a
17 road towards the seat of the government. There was no bypass way or the
18 old road was impassable because it was under the Muslim control. They
19 were just clearing new road through the wood. Maybe we were talking about
20 that, but I cannot remember exactly now. That's when Mr. Krajisnik asked
21 me and I reported to him about everyday events that affected the people
22 and we were in contact on a regular basis.
23 Q. And did you try make Mr. Krajisnik aware of his -- many of the
24 details of what was happening in the area as you possibly could?
25 A. Whatever I thought was relevant, I did inform him, as well as
1 about whatever he asked me to tell him about.
2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, Ms. Cmeric tells me, in fact she
3 informs me that at page 32, line 10, well, the previous line, actually,
4 line 9, the sentence "that's when Mr. Krajisnik asked me and I reported to
5 him about everyday events." At line 14, the witness said, "Whatever I
6 thought was relevant I did inform him." Ms. Cmeric suggests that
7 "informed" is the appropriate translation or interpretation at line 10,
8 rather than "reported," or reported to.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I ask the interpreters, first of all,
10 whether they still remember what the witness then said, and whether
11 "informed" would be a better translation than "report." It's not exactly
12 the same.
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would kindly ask the witness to
14 repeat his statement.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then of course the witness is now aware of
16 what the problem is. Then we'll -- we'll inform the interpreters at a
17 later stage what the witness said on the basis of the audiotape rather
18 than ask the witness now to repeat his answer.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, I'd like to
21 move to Prosecution's next in order. For the benefit of the booth, I
22 indicated that's an intercepted conversation on Sanction. That's ET
23 0322-0981, and it's been previously introduced as P292 KID 31472.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger. One other question, just to
25 be very practical. The issue of report or inform, if it would be inform
1 would that be accepted by the Prosecution?
2 MR. TIEGER: We'll certainly accept whatever the results of the --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stewart, the Prosecution accepts the
4 testimony of its witness to be informed, so that we don't have to go
5 through the tape.
6 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. That's most helpful.
7 Your Honour, may I just mention that in relation to the previous exhibit,
8 the one we've just left, 443, Ms. Cmeric sent an e-mail yesterday evening
9 to Mr. Tieger raising some points on the translation. I don't know
10 whether Mr. Tieger has had and taken the opportunity of considering that
12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear that from Mr. Tieger at a later stage.
13 MR. STEWART: I thank you, Your Honour.
14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, may I apologise. I don't believe I was
15 clear with the Court. I thought you were asking if any further steps
16 would be necessary once the matter was reviewed and the interpreters made
17 an appropriate determination of what word had been used.
18 JUDGE ORIE: No. The first thing I asked you is if Ms. Cmeric
19 would be right in informing, would that change the Prosecution's case in
20 such a way that we really have to verify its -- well, it's that essential.
21 If you say it is, then we'll --
22 MR. TIEGER: I think I'd ask for it to be verified.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll check it on the audio.
24 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour. The e-mail I mentioned had
25 nothing to do with this point of --.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. I do understand.
2 MR. STEWART: -- informed. That issue, that point stands.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's now first continue, and whatever was in
4 the e-mail, we'll hear about that at a later stage. Please proceed,
5 Mr. Tieger
6 [Intercept played]
7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] I have the text in English.
8 The interpreters note we don't have the English translation of the
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could we stop. The interpreters have not the English
12 THE INTERPRETER: The English booth only had the B/C/S version,
13 but we'll get it from the B/C/S booth. Now that have the English
15 JUDGE ORIE: The wrong booth had or at least one of the booths had
16 an English translation. Could you tell us once you've received it so we
17 can continue.
18 Can we continue?
19 THE INTERPRETER: The booth is ready.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. We can restart the tape.
21 [Intercept played]
22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
23 Miljana: Hello minister how are you.
24 Momcilo MANDIC: All right how are you.
25 Miljana: Just a moment, the president would like to talk to you.
1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Hello.
2 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes.
3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Mandic.
4 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes?
5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right. Are you a traitor as everybody
7 Miljana: Minister, the connection broke up.
8 Momcilo MANDIC: Something at your end ...
9 Miljana: You can, laughing ...
10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Hello.
11 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Momo?
13 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, President?
14 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: What was it?
15 Momcilo MANDIC: Probably something at your end.
16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: The moment I told you and you betrayed, the
17 line got cut off.
18 Momcilo MANDIC: God forbid.
19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Ah.
20 Momcilo MANDIC: I would not do that.
21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Momo, tell me, how does it go.
22 Momcilo MANDIC: Well I am not up to date with what is going on in
23 that lower part, the main one, but as for this one, it is going well.
24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: These haven't come in at all ...
25 Momcilo MANDIC: Not at all?
1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Not at all.
2 Momcilo MANDIC: I would not know anything about that.
3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: This is a shame, a shame.
4 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Two things. I actually wanted to see if
6 Stanisic was there, to see with him what is happening with this, so it
7 means that what we agreed upon was not respected.
8 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
9 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: There is still a half chance today, and
10 tomorrow it will be finished.
11 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: It's a big problem with Alija. Has that one
13 been finished? That is awful. As of today we finish it all, you know.
14 Momcilo MANDIC: Here, there is something pounding ...
15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Huh?
16 Momcilo MANDIC: It could be heard that they pound.
17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, that is. Has he made it down there or
18 not? It's all over now. Secondly, have you released the one I told you
19 about by any chance?
20 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, I have.
21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes?
22 Momcilo MANDIC: He left for Vrbanja one hour ago.
23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Thank God.
24 Momcilo MANDIC: Karamehmedovic, right?
25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, that's him.
1 Momcilo MANDIC: Well, he is gone.
2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Let me also ask you what about this Savic
3 Milos, since it's his brother, that is really ...
4 Momcilo MANDIC: President, I put it on the list, the first next
5 exchange and it will be finished.
6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Check it down there, do you have anyone there,
7 can you contact someone?
8 Momcilo MANDIC: There is this Vukovic, a member of the youth
9 organisation, a Serb who is criticising us because we ... Have four
10 hundred prisoners here, you know?
11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Who is criticising?
12 Momcilo MANDIC: I've got four hundred.
13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And who is criticising?
14 Momcilo MANDIC: This Vukovic, Filip, the member of youth
15 organisation, Serb, he says clean it, but for them they are ...
16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Filip Vukovic?
17 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Communist?
19 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes.
20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: What does he want?
21 Momcilo MANDIC: He is the president of that does this commission.
22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Their commission?
23 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
24 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And what is that he wants? What is it that he
1 Momcilo MANDIC: War prisoners. No, they are ex for them. They
2 are hardly interested in people. They are interested in ammunition and
3 meat and now we let those women and children go to Vrbanja, go to -- to go
4 to their own people. He says that ethnic cleansing what we do ...
5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: He does.
6 Momcilo MANDIC: ... here ... when ... I will fucking.
7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And where is he now.
8 Momcilo MANDIC: Somewhere there, I do not know.
9 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: With them, isn't he?
10 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: That means he is theirs?
12 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes, yes.
13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: God traitors are all around.
14 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes.
15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good, Momo, look, please do call him. I would
16 like to help Savic. It's his brother in stake.
17 Momcilo MANDIC: First exchange I will take care of that.
18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good, Momo.
19 Momcilo MANDIC: And that man, is he gone?
20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Momo let me ask you something.
21 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Whom should we appoint for the public
24 Momcilo MANDIC: Avlijas Slobodan.
25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Avlijas Slobodan?
1 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well is that ...
3 Momcilo MANDIC: It is, President, here, there is a man who knows
4 everybody who is from here ...
5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I know him.
6 Momcilo MANDIC: So, do you know him?
7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good, if he was pro ... judge ...
8 Momcilo MANDIC: He was medj [phoen] ... he was in my ministry,
9 however, he is skilled, capable, he knows many of those people, and the
10 place does not hold him. I think he is the man for it.
11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Kovac Slobodan, this one cannot.
12 Momcilo MANDIC: Kovac Slobodan what?
13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good.
14 Momcilo MANDIC: Already ...
15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: You should draft that proposal, and then send
16 it from here.
17 Momcilo MANDIC: Deal.
18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: All right.
19 Momcilo MANDIC: Bye.
20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Come on, go back to work. You are hardly
21 there yourself ... really ... listen, you say I will give the fax and you
22 do it straight away. You say I will give the phone and you do it straight
24 Momcilo MANDIC: [Laughing]
25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We should set you free from this fax because
2 Momcilo MANDIC: Don't ... will come ...
3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: You don't have to ...
4 Momcilo MANDIC: Skrbo is here. I don't know what to do with him.
5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Don't go to the field now, for action ...
6 Momcilo MANDIC: Laughing ... no, no, no ... President what are we
7 going to do, do send a commissioner to Kasindol, two three men some Papazi
8 [phoen], they came to me from Dr. Avramovic from Kasindol, nobody ever
9 called, they scattered there, doctor. They appoint their own people for
11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And who is that one?
12 Momcilo MANDIC: To Kasindol, the hospital.
13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Who are those people, where is that from.
14 Momcilo MANDIC: Local community of Kasindol, the Crisis Staff.
15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And is that municipality, which one?
16 Momcilo MANDIC: No it's local community Ilidza, Ilidza is the
17 municipality Kasindol is the local community.
18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And why do they have the commissioner, why
19 don't they go there.
20 Momcilo MANDIC: No, it isn't. I don't know which ... these
21 doctors came to me. They appointed some -- Divljan Sonja instead of this
22 director ...
23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And how could they do that?
24 Momcilo MANDIC: The Crisis Staff of the local community Kasindol
25 appointed her.
1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Give me please ...
2 Momcilo MANDIC: And then -- Popovic Koviljka the cashier to make
3 an overview to see how the income is being distributed and income
4 again ...
5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will now call Prstojevic to go there or to
6 send someone because he has the Crisis Staff Ilidza and that is Ilidza.
7 Momcilo MANDIC: It's a shame President.
8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will see that they take care of that
10 Momcilo MANDIC: But they are in contact with Prstojevic.
11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: See, then, if he does not do anything we'll
12 see to send someone else there.
13 Momcilo MANDIC: They are in some kind of business with that
14 Prstojevic. They do black marketing together ...
15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: He cannot could anything on his own, he has
16 the committee now, some wonderful people are there, you know. They are
17 not the old ones any more.
18 Momcilo MANDIC: But, doctor, these came and they whine and
19 cry ...
20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Tell them it will be taken care of properly.
21 Momcilo MANDIC: Because they do not obey. They did not give them
22 a slice of bread.
23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Who?
24 Momcilo MANDIC: These from the local community, because ...
25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Who does not give a peace of bread?
1 Momcilo MANDIC: They would not allow assistance go straight to
2 the hospital Kasindol, but only through them. Then they stop that
3 assistance and then give them a little. It's a shame.
4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will now ...
5 Momcilo MANDIC: People should be arrested, President.
6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will find Dragan Kalinic now to go there and
7 see what needs to be done.
8 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, please, Doctor, do call. Here I have five
9 people sitting here, right across me, staring at me and ...
10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Momo, what you promised I will do.
11 Momcilo MANDIC: Good, President.
12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: There is no such a minister in the entire
13 planet ...
14 Momcilo MANDIC: Oh, come on, please ...
15 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will ...
16 Momcilo MANDIC: So they don't disperse the staff.
17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I will, Momo.
18 Momcilo MANDIC: Thank you very much. Bye.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I heard as a translation when
20 Divljan Sonja was introduced, that she was appointed as a doctor, from
21 what I understood, where it seems both in B/C/S and in the English
22 translation to be director.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, does the Court wish me to go on at this
25 point or ...
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you have several questions, we'd rather have
2 a break first. Yes.
3 We'll adjourn until 10 minutes past --
4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I just hand up the -- those -- the
5 updated version of that -- we called it a dossier. I've got lots of
6 copies here, Your Honour, certainly enough for the Trial Chamber and the
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.
9 We'll adjourn until 10 minutes past 4.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 3.47 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 4.14 p.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Stewart, you told us before
13 the break that if you would not have convinced us yet that you'd like to
14 address the Chamber ex parte on whether or not you should cross-examine
15 the witness after the Prosecution has finished its examination-in-chief,
16 the Chamber would like to give you an opportunity to do that, which means
17 that we would have then, for a short while, an ex parte hearing on that.
18 That means, Madam Registrar, I must say, it's the first time that in the
19 course of a trial we move to an ex parte hearing. So if you have any --
20 apart from asking the Prosecution to leave and to go into closed session,
21 I don't think that anything else is needed.
22 Mr. Tieger.
23 MR. TIEGER: Might I have just a moment.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: One of the questions is whether we can separate the
1 transcript, because it should be a separate transcript.
2 Mr. Tieger --
3 MR. STEWART: That struck me, Your Honour. And, yes, thank you
4 for raising it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It will be limited in time, but Mr. Stewart said that
6 he doesn't want to, of course, to put his strategy on the table, which
7 is -- the Chamber thinks an understandable position, and therefore I'd
8 like to go into closed session and to ask the Prosecution to leave the
9 courtroom, and ask transcribers and technicians whether this would be
10 sufficient to have a separate transcript.
11 Madam Registrar.
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters have a correction, just one -
13 probably there would be many others - from the last transcript.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The interpreters -- before we go into closed
15 session, the interpreters have one correction for the transcript.
16 THE INTERPRETER: In the last transcript, wherever it says "it's a
17 shame," the right way of translating it would be "it's a disgrace." And
18 both speakers used the word. The French booth translated it properly.
19 They said, "c'est une honte."
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, and the only thing I could say,
21 that if only such small mistakes were made where you have such an enormous
22 task, then everyone would admire the job the interpreters are doing.
23 THE INTERPRETER: We were again reading from the transcript given.
24 We were not interpreting.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm identified that the technicians would need
3 ten minutes after the ex parte hearing, and since the Chamber might need
4 some time to make up its mind on the decision. We'll then now turn into a
5 closed and ex parte hearing.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing was interrupted at
7 4.20 p.m., to be followed by an Ex Parte hearing
8 --- On resuming at 4.52 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I think we started a new transcript. Therefore,
10 Madam Registrar, could I ask you to call the case. Is it just a new
11 transcript and not -- okay. Then that's not needed, although of course we
12 are sitting and hearing the case of the Prosecution against Mr. Krajisnik.
13 First of all, before we continue, I should explain to both parties
14 what technical problems we faced. As a matter of fact, an ex parte
15 hearing means that, of course, the other party should not be aware of what
16 has been said. Since we continued, the ex parte hearing would have been
17 available to the OTP on their laptop computers. Therefore, I instructed,
18 and I should have foreseen this, and I should have warned you in advance,
19 I instructed the technicians to remove the part prior to the break from
20 your laptop computers. You'll get the open session back as soon as
21 possible, but it is in order to get rid of the ex parte part.
22 Therefore, I had to do that, and I apologise for not having
23 foreseen better the technical problems an ex parte hearing just in the
24 middle of a trial would take.
25 Having explained this, if it would cause you any problem, I still
1 might have my -- so if there's any need to consult the transcript of the
2 open session, then we could do that. And this was all to hear the Defence
3 on the issue on whether or not the Defence is expected to cross-examine
4 Mr. Mandic.
5 The decision of the Chamber does not only deal with the matter of
6 cross-examination of Mr. Mandic, but is split up in four parts.
7 First part: In view of the very special circumstances that have
8 arisen now, the Prosecution is ordered to provide the Article 68 material
9 that had been disclosed, I think it was yesterday, to the Defence, not
10 only in B/C/S but also in translation, so that counsel can have access to
11 it. And when I say in one of the official languages of the Tribunal,
12 that, of course, means in English under those circumstances.
13 Second: The Prosecution should not touch upon this material
14 during its examination-in-chief. And if the Prosecution would touch upon
15 any material that was for the first time disclosed to the Defence after
16 the 29th of October, it should indicate so, so that the Chamber can then
17 decide whether or not it will allow the introduction of that material into
18 evidence or at least directly related to the testimony of the witness.
19 If, in accordance with this guidance, the Prosecution refrains
20 from touching upon that material, that Article 68 material recently
21 disclosed, and if it follows the instruction to inform the Chamber as soon
22 as any material is touched upon directly, which was for the first time
23 disclosed after the 29th of October, 2004, if the OTP keeps to that
24 instruction, then the Defence is given the opportunity to cross-examine
25 Mr. Mandic once the OTP has finished its examination-in-chief.
1 The Defence is further entitled to apply, if need be, ex parte, if
2 that would be needed in order to establish good cause and not to damage
3 the interests of the Defence, the Defence is entitled to apply for further
4 cross-examination of Mr. Mandic if material that was disclosed for the
5 first time after the 29th of October would cause them to do so.
6 This is the ruling of the Chamber on these matters.
7 Then, Mr. Tieger, are you ready to resume the cross-examination of
8 the witness? I'm now confused. It's late Friday evening, Friday
9 afternoon. Is it clear to you, or do you have any further questions?
10 MR. TIEGER: I believe it's clear, Your Honour. However, I think
11 I'm going to need to retrieve some materials in order to comply fully with
12 the Court's -- I don't have the disclosure history in front of me and
13 would not necessarily be able to identify those --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I saw that the disclosure history at least was on the
15 list of Mr. Stewart. Item 2 says final exhibit list and disclosure
16 history, which is 6.290 kilobytes.
17 MR. TIEGER: Okay. We may have to move a little bit slower, but
18 we'll certainly endeavour to do so, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Madam Usher, unless there are any
20 questions the Defence would like to ask in relation to this ruling.
21 Perhaps one clarification. Where I said that the Chamber gives an
22 opportunity to the Defence to cross-examine the witness, of course I
23 cannot instruct the Defence to cross-examine the witness because it's
24 finally up to the Defence whether or not to cross-examine the witness.
25 That's why I used the words that the Defence --
1 MR. STEWART: We appreciated the terms in which Your Honour
2 clearly carefully and, with respect, correctly chosen the phraseology.
3 May I just consult my colleagues for one moment. I think there may be
4 just one point, Your Honour, where we might ask for some clarification.
5 Excuse me one moment.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, one moment, Your Honour. I'm going to
9 have to scroll back a little bit on the ...
10 Your Honour, the only question we raise is Your Honour mentioned -
11 I hope I'm near enough to the microphone - Your Honour said, and this is
12 at page -- which page are we on here? Page 2. Page 2, oh, because it's a
13 new transcript. Page 2, line 7, the second point in your -- the Trial
14 Chamber's ruling. "The Prosecution should not touch upon this material
15 during its examination-in-chief. And if the Prosecution would touch upon
16 any material that was for the first time disclosed to the Defence after
17 the 29th of October, it should indicate so, so that the Chamber can then
18 decide whether or not it will allow the introduction of that material into
19 evidence or at least directly related to the testimony of the witness."
20 And Your Honour, the question we ask is, and this would need to be
21 checked, but we think the position may be that --
22 JUDGE ORIE: It had been done already.
23 MR. STEWART: Material introduced into evidence was introduced
24 after the 29th of October. So it would seem logically that that part of
25 the ruling ought in some way apply to that. In which case I suppose my
1 question is, I'm sorry to put it so lamely, but where does that leave us,
2 Your Honour, with respect?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, we'll what then do is -- of course, the
4 Prosecution could not take into consideration any decision not yet taken
5 by the Trial Chamber. So therefore, we'll then see where our attention
6 should then be drawn now by the Prosecution to that material already
7 introduced, and we'll then have to decide whether that still is in
8 evidence, whether that's -- or whether an extra opportunity would be given
9 to the Defence to have a delayed cross-examination. We'll then decide on
10 the basis of what we find. Of course, it very much also depends on what
11 material that is. So, therefore, if such material has already been
12 introduced into evidence, material that had never been disclosed before
13 the 29th of October, then the Chamber would like to be informed. Because
14 we have two categories now. We have the late Article 68 disclosure, which
15 is out -- well, it's not out, but if it's touched upon directly by the
16 Prosecution, then the condition under which the Chamber will ask the
17 Defence to cross-examine the witness is not fulfilled any more, and then,
18 so therefore, that part, the third part of the ruling then does not stand.
19 We have another category of material that is -- apart from this
20 Article 68 material, any material disclosed after the 29th of October for
21 the first time. And if that has been introduced already, the Chamber
22 would like to be informed to consider whether this needs any further
24 MR. STEWART: Yes. There's just one practical question,
25 Your Honour. Clearly, a first step for all concerned on the counsel's
1 side is to try and be clear what material has been disclosed for the first
2 time since the 29th of October. But I'm sure we're all interested in
3 avoiding duplication of effort.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that -- I take it that perhaps the
5 first -- I mean part of the problem is related - if it's new material - by
6 late disclosure. So therefore, I would like to invite the Prosecution to
7 give its view on any material used in court after -- and disclosed for the
8 first time after the 29th of October, to give -- to at least to inform the
9 Defence what documents would meet that criterion, and then of course if
10 the parties will disagree, we'll hear that later. I take it the
11 examination-in-chief will not be finished today anyhow, so even if that
12 would be done over the weekend, then we'll be confronted with it on
13 Monday, and whenever needed, we'll give any further rulings. Yes? Is
14 that clear? If that's clear, then I'd like to ask Madam Usher to escort
15 the witness and Mr. Tomic into the courtroom.
16 [Witness's counsel entered court]
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, since you're a trained lawyer, you'll
19 certainly understand that procedural issues sometimes take more time than
20 one would wish. But we're now back to the substance.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Mandic, before we recessed, we were looking at a telephone
24 conversation of June 26th, 1992, between you and Mr. Krajisnik. I take it
25 you still have the transcript of that conversation before you. You seem
1 to be looking at the transcript. I gather it's there in front of you.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, in that conversation, you refer to having 400 prisoners here.
4 Do you see that part of the transcript?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. First of all, did you ever try to hide or keep from Mr. Krajisnik
7 information about the number of prisoners who were detained on Bosnian
8 Serb territory?
9 A. Mr. Prosecutor, these are not prisoners. These are people who
10 were removed from the war area where there was fighting. I informed
11 Mr. Krajisnik when I was down there that I immediately removed these
12 people from that territory, and I sent them via Vrbanja Most to Sarajevo.
13 Actually, I think that at that time there was fighting around the airport
14 and the neighbourhood of Dobrinja, which is very close to Kula. That was
15 my initiative. Without commissions, without lists, that these people be
16 removed from the area where there was fighting. I informed Krajisnik
17 about that, and Mr. Krajisnik asked me about Mr. Karamehmedovic, to find
18 him and ensure his safe return to Sarajevo. That's what I did. I did
19 return him and I informed him about that. Can I tell you about one more
21 This Vukovic, who was chairman of the commission of the
22 Federation, he did not want to receive these people, because he probably
23 had a problem with food and accommodation. So they created a problem over
24 this, saying that it was ethnic cleansing. If there is population living
25 in a war-torn area, and if you ask them where they want to go, and if they
1 say "we want to go to Sarajevo to stay with our relatives, friends,"
2 whatever, that's exactly what I did.
3 Q. Let me -- may I ask that Exhibit P439 be presented to the witness
4 once again. Meanwhile, he can keep the transcript of this conversation.
5 Mr. Mandic, I want to direct your attention to the last full
6 paragraph of that document, the one that appears to begin immediately
7 after the names toward the bottom of page 2 of the B/C/S version of Nijaz
8 Sukric and Ibrahim Dzenanovic. Do you see where that paragraph begins?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And just to refresh everyone's recollection, P439 is a document
11 that was sent by Mr. Vukovic, the gentleman mentioned in the telephone
12 conversation of June 26th. Now, at that portion of the document that I
13 directed you to, Mr. Vukovic states: "We believe that once your side has
14 fulfilled the previously arranged exchanges, we should embark on the
15 release of all imprisoned persons and detainees, in accordance with the
16 agreement reached at UNPROFOR on 9 June 1992. The attachment contains the
17 list of imprisoned persons and detainees according to our records. It is
18 our opinion that, once released, the detainees should be sent to their
19 places of residence, i.e., to their domicile address. Otherwise, this
20 would signify typical deportation, exile, and ethnic cleansing of the
21 area. Such persons should also be issued with appropriate certificates to
22 prevent arrests for the second or third time."
23 And as we discussed yesterday -- well, let me first ask you: Is
24 this the allegation by Mr. Vukovic to which you were referring in your
25 conversation with Mr. Krajisnik?
1 A. Probably. I can't remember. I believe it is, though.
2 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MR. TIEGER:
5 Q. And again, looking at P439, the list of imprisoned persons and
6 detainees that Mr. Vukovic was referring to was the list he provided in an
7 attachment to the same document; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Let me go back a moment to the question I asked you before. Here
10 in this conversation, you're informing Mr. Krajisnik about 400 people who
11 are held by the Bosnian Serb authorities. Did you ever keep from him or
12 hide from him information about persons who were being held by Bosnian
13 Serb authorities that was in your -- that you knew about?
14 A. At my own discretion, I informed Mr. Krajisnik about these people
15 who, at my own initiative and with the consent of Minister Stanisic and
16 the chief of police, Tepavcevic, who then held Kula, Milo Tepavcevic,
17 nicknamed Tepo. I asked for assistance and I let these people go to
18 Sarajevo, which was under Muslim control. Because these people were at
19 that moment in a territory where fighting was still raging, police
20 fighting, I think around the airport. Because this was a separation
21 between Ilidza, that was held by the Serb forces, and the other part, the
22 eastern part, that was also held by the Serb forces.
23 So in passing, I informed him about this, and Krajisnik had called
24 me because of Mr. Savic and Mr. Karamehmedovic and that's why he sent me
25 to Sarajevo, to find him, and to hand him over at Vrbanja Most to his
1 family, and it was probably something that someone had asked Mr. Krajisnik
2 to do, an acquaintance or somebody.
3 And when I spoke about those obstacles or whatever before, it was
4 20 kilometres, say, from Pale, or from the Hotel Bistrica, where the
5 government was, down to Lukavica. And this communication was impeded.
6 The road was not an easy one. It was a forest road. And, in passing, I
7 informed him about these problems at the local commune, the doctor, the
8 food, and everything else that was going on there, and that I thought I
9 should inform him about.
10 Mr. Prosecutor, I believe that this list does not refer to this
11 transcript. This list was probably given to Ratko, because at that time
12 there was no chairman of the commission. I think that Vanovac was
13 appointed. So there was this administration and there was a bit of
14 confusion there because the Serb side did not have a very high degree of
15 organisation. I helped ad hoc, or if Krajisnik or anybody else asked me
16 to do them a favour in terms of the people who were being kept, things
17 like that.
18 Q. Did you inform Mr. Krajisnik about the list of 3.441 prisoners
19 identified in the attachment provided by Mr. Vukovic?
20 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I never saw this list or this document, never.
21 That is what I assert before this honourable Trial Chamber. I never saw
22 this in all my life, this list or this document, nor did I ever work on
23 this list. That is what I assert under oath.
24 Q. On June 26th, 1992, Mr. Vukovic faxed this document -- this
25 document was faxed --
1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the witness's answer to that last
2 question: "I never saw this list or document, never." We believe that
3 that is precisely what the witness said yesterday, in which case, the
4 question that was asked: "Did you inform Mr. Krajisnik about the list of
5 3.441 prisoners identified in the attachment provided by Mr. Vukovic?"
6 It's -- well, we suppose that it's an inadvertent question based on
7 overlooking the fact that he had previously said that he had never seen it
8 at all.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, Mr. Tieger, you take that point. If you
10 say I haven't seen the list, then it's difficult to say I -- or would you
11 consider it a coincidence that 3.441 people would be exactly the same on
12 the basis of ... Let's --
13 MR. TIEGER: I think -- I have found and I have expressed the view
14 that Mr. Stewart, a very alert counsel, has a custom of intervening in an
15 examination before a particular area has been concluded. That's what's
16 happening now. I'd like to continue.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do agree with Mr. Stewart that your question
18 suggests something the witness denied to be the fact, and so therefore, in
19 one way or the other, it should be made explicit then on what basis the
20 question is put to the witness. Once the witness had answered this
21 question, Mr. Stewart, there was no need for further intervention, I
22 think, unless you'd say that the next question was about that same list.
23 But, therefore, I try to do it shortly, Mr. Tieger, to better -- you took
24 the point that any direct reference in relation to this witness to that
25 list might not be the best thing to do.
1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, of I was mainly concerned to ensure
2 that it was done inadvertently, because I must remind the Trial Chamber,
3 this is Mr. Tieger's witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's continue. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger,
5 and I urge the parties not to intervene unnecessarily, certainly not
7 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER:
9 Q. On the 26th of June, P439, the document by Mr. Vukovic was
10 faxed -- [Microphone not activated]
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for Mr. Tieger.
12 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry. Thank you. I'll repeat that question.
13 Q. On June 26th, 1992, P439, the document that we've been referring
14 to by Mr. Vukovic, was faxed to the Central Commission for the Exchange of
15 Persons. And on that same date, you had your conversation with Mr.
16 Krajisnik, during which you made reference to Mr. Vukovic's allegations
17 about ethnic cleansing. How did you learn about Mr. Vukovic's claims that
18 ethnic cleansing, or concern that ethnic cleansing was taking place?
19 A. Probably one of my co-workers told me, people who were in contact
20 with Vukovic, or maybe when I was in personal contact with him. I cannot
21 remember how this happened. You see, when I got there to those premises,
22 and when I saw a great many people in one place, and when I asked them
23 where are you from, what are you doing here, they said they were from
24 Dobrinja and these neighbourhoods near the places where the actual
25 fighting was going on. I asked Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Tepavcevic to give
1 these people escorts. I asked them: Where do you want to go? And they
2 said: We want to go and join our own people. We want to cross Vrbanja
3 Most and go to Sarajevo. I provided them with an escort. I did that this
4 as a humanist, as a former Sarajevo policeman. I knew half of these
5 people. I made it possible for them to get to Vrbanja Most and it's by
6 chance that I informed Krajisnik about that, because I was doing other
7 things that day, telling him about the problems with the doctors, and the
8 fact that I found this Karamehmedovic, that Mr. Krajisnik asked to
9 transfer to Sarajevo. At one point in time Krajisnik says thank God that
10 he got to Vrbanja Most alive, because he probably promised this man from
11 Sarajevo, or rather, these people from Sarajevo who were relatives of
12 Karamehmedovic that we would find the man and take him back to his family.
13 But I didn't manage to take care of this other problem. This person who
14 worked with Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Savic. The problem he had with his
15 brother. Although I was supposed to do that at the request and at the
16 behest of the president of the parliament.
17 That's what I did, from those positions. I'm not going into these
18 lists. It was lower-ranking officials to dealt with this, Mr. Prosecutor.
19 It says Ratko here. Perhaps this was sent to Ratko Lalovic, who was
20 already warden of the prison, who was already working there. It was not
21 the job of the minister. There was a central commission. Now whether
22 it's the Sarajevo Central Commission, or the state Central Commission, you
23 cannot see that from here. I am really not familiar with these lists and
24 these commissions and I really can't help you on that one.
25 Q. I might have missed it, but where did you see these 400 people who
1 were being held? Where were they being held?
2 A. Mr. Prosecutor, at that time, I was building the Serb judiciary.
3 At the location of Kula, where there was a semi-open prison before the
4 war, and an investigation prison. There were a few buildings there and
5 that is where I set up the district court of the Serb Sarajevo, the basic
6 court of the Serb Sarajevo, the basic prosecutor's office, the higher
7 prosecutor's office, and I asked for the police and army to leave the Kula
8 prison so that it could become a part of the district court in Sarajevo as
9 an investigation office.
10 At that time, I spent a lot of time there, because I was looking
11 for Serbs who were eminent lawyers, who were leaving the federal town of
12 Sarajevo, like Milan Trbojevic, Marko Arsovic, Sveto Stanojevic, and many,
13 many others. That's where I kept them. And then we were building a
14 judiciary at that locality. When I passed there, I saw a large number of
15 people there. I saw war operations. And then I got involved as a person
16 who wanted to solve a problem, because this was still the beginning of the
17 war. And there were operations going on and people were wondering what to
18 do. They didn't know who had what kind of authority. So at my own
19 initiative, I transferred these people, with the assistance of the MUP,
20 who held Kula then, and they safely reached Vrbanja Most and crossed it.
21 That's what I did, Mr. Prosecutor.
22 And then on the 20th of May, that's the day when I became
23 minister, I went down and all the people who were there at that moment, I
24 safely transferred them to Vrbanja Most. And you have Mr. Tepavcevic's
25 note about that, but the other one. He was chief of police there at Kula
1 and he held the police station there.
2 Q. Why did you advise Mr. Krajisnik about the 400 prisoners and what
3 Mr. Vukovic had said about them? Was it because you wanted him to know
4 that there were 400 people being held or because you wanted him to know
5 about Mr. Vukovic's concerns or allegations, or for some other reason?
6 A. I repeated this to you yesterday, and I'm repeating it again
7 today. For the most part, I informed Mr. Krajisnik because I trusted him
8 the most when compared to all the Serb leaders. So I thought what I
9 should tell him -- I mean, I'm from Sarajevo. I lived in Sarajevo for 40
10 years. And Mr. Krajisnik was born in Sarajevo too. And then I thought
11 that perhaps Karadzic or Mladic would not be too worried about that kind
12 of thing. I thought that he was the person that I should tell about this
13 situation in the lower Sarajevo, Donja Sarajevo, down there. And I spent
14 a lot of time down there as I was building the judiciary. I did this at
15 my own initiative, because the basic purpose of our conversation was who
16 the republican prosecutor should be and whether Savic's brother was
17 exchanged and whether everything was all right with Mr. Karamehmedovic.
18 Is that the right name? Yes. The previous day, he asked me, requested
19 me, or rather, told me simply to find the man and to return him to
20 Sarajevo, to his family.
21 Q. Did Mr. Krajisnik ask you why Vukovic was saying that what the
22 Bosnian Serbs were doing was ethnic cleansing?
23 A. Mr. Prosecutor, please. As far as I can remember -- as for
24 Mr. Vukovic's position, the one that's written down here, it's either
25 Ratko Lalovic or somebody else who informed me about this. I don't know
1 exactly who it was. And then I conveyed his position and his opinion to
2 Mr. Krajisnik. Or perhaps Mr. Vukovic told me when I was looking for
3 Mr. Savic's family. I cannot tell you exactly. This was 12 years ago,
4 how I learned about this position of his. But I saw those people there,
5 terrified, with these bundles, women, children. When I asked them: Where
6 do you want to go? And they said: We want to go to Sarajevo. We want to
7 go via Vrbanja Most. I think that the only thing that crossed my mind at
8 that moment was to get those people and those children out of the war
9 zone, or rather, the area surrounding Kula. So it's from that position
10 that I did that, Mr. Prosecutor.
11 Krajisnik did not know about this. Had I not told him about it,
12 he wouldn't have known about it. All this information concerning things
13 that were going on there, he received from me, because I was, yes, one of
14 the people who enjoyed his confidence, one of the people that he trusted.
15 Q. Did you know that there were others -- did you know whether there
16 were others, other Muslims, being held by the Bosnian Serbs at that time?
17 A. You mean Kula, the Kula prison?
18 Q. Kula or anywhere else?
19 A. The establishment of the ministry -- or in mid-May I became
20 minister. One of the priority tasks was to create a judiciary, and the
21 next step was, in accordance with the decision made by the government, I
22 think, to dissolve all municipal camps, or rather, these places where
23 civilians were held in the territory of the entire Serb Republic of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. At that moment, when I came to Kula, it is correct,
25 Mr. Prosecutor, that I did see people who were not of Serb ethnicity, that
1 I saw them in Kula, and every time Mr. Tepavcevic told either me or
2 Mr. Stanisic or the Central Commission about the war operations and
3 whether it was the army or the police that had jurisdiction over them.
4 You have two or three letters from Mr. Tepavcevic in which he
5 informs the minister of police, or rather, the chief of the public
6 security, the minister of the judiciary, and other institutions, about the
7 situation in Kula that was then held by the police.
8 Q. So it -- in addition to the 400 people who were the subject of
9 discussion in the June 26th conversation, did you know at that time that
10 there were others, other non-Serbs who were being held in various places
11 around Sarajevo?
12 A. I knew that somewhere in Lukavica, the army also had a centre
13 where imprisoned non-Serbs were held. This is in Lukavica, but that was
14 exclusively under the jurisdiction of the army. There is something that
15 corroborates what I've been claiming all along. When Mr. Krajisnik was
16 asking me about Karamehmedovic, I said I'll see whether he's in Lukavica
17 or in Kula. Lukavica was held by the military, and that's about three
18 kilometres away from Kula. It was the Sarajevo Corps, the military, that
19 held Lukavica.
20 Q. When Mr. Colovic or Mr. Tepavcevic or whoever it was that informed
21 you about Mr. Vukovic's document tell -- or told you about Mr. Vukovic's
22 allegations, did he also tell you about the 3.441 persons on the list?
23 A. I'm telling you for the third time, Mr. Prosecutor: Never in my
24 life did I see or hear about this list of 3.000-something people. I never
25 saw any such thing. Either Mr. Vukovic, from that commission, or somebody
1 else from the administration, told me about Mr. Vukovic's position, that
2 people in that area should not return to Sarajevo but, rather, that they
3 should stay there. And that was considered to be ethnic cleansing. If
4 from Dobrinja they go to Marin Dvor. Dobrinja was engulfed by war
5 operations. There was fighting there. And in Marin Dvor there was
6 nothing. So from that point of view he said it was ethnic cleansing. I
7 thought it was better to transfer them there so that something would not
8 happen to someone. Call it ethnic cleansing if you will. But there were
9 women, children there, in prison, without proper hygienic conditions,
10 nothing. It was an enormous number of people for this small prison that
11 was only an investigation, semi-open prison before the war.
12 Q. Given your position as minister of justice and the work you were
13 doing for -- in connection with exchanges at that time, as we discussed
14 yesterday, would you have expected anyone who received the document from
15 Mr. Vukovic to tell you about that list of prisoners?
16 A. By looking at this fax number, you can establish whose number that
17 is, whether that was the police station, or rather, the SUP in Kula, or
18 the office of somebody else. It says here Ratko. That means that Ratko
19 was the person who received this document.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, may I just stop you. Would you please
21 carefully listen to the question. The question was not to whom this list
22 was sent. The question was whether you, in your position, as minister of
23 justice, whether you would have expected anyone who received the document,
24 whoever that was, to tell you about that list. That's the question.
25 Would you please focus your answer on that question.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Mr. Prosecutor. Can you
2 please repeat the question. I was a little bit confused by this
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, we've spoken about a list of almost three
5 and a half thousand prisoners, a list you wouldn't know. The question,
6 quite simply, is that if someone would have received that list, whether
7 you would expect, as minister of justice, to be informed about such a
8 number of imprisoned persons or persons detained.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. And did you eventually find out about the presence of that number
13 of persons in Bosnian Serb territory or about efforts by the Commission
14 for Exchange -- by the Bosnian Commission for Exchange to obtain their
16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that seems to be two questions.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, the witness, I think, could split them
19 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stewart, the witness may answer the
21 question. The questions are sometimes a bit complicated. If the witness
22 doesn't understand the question, if he doesn't see the two elements in it,
23 he'll tell us.
24 So the question was whether you finally found out about the
25 presence of such a number of persons on your territory, and Mr. Tieger was
1 referring to detained or imprisoned persons.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you referring to the entire
3 territory of Republika Srpska or just the area around -- in and around
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Well, let's begin with the area in and around Sarajevo.
7 A. I was never familiar with the list of imprisoned people. That was
8 exclusively under the responsibility of municipal and Central Commissions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, may I stop you. The question was not
10 about the list as such, but about such a number of people.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know how many imprisoned
12 people were in the territory of Republika Srpska.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The question was: The area of Sarajevo, whether you
14 became aware of a number of approximately, well, let's say, three and a
15 half thousand people imprisoned or detained.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed with the second part of your question.
18 Perhaps I can put it to you.
19 Did you ever find out that, well, let's say the other side was
20 trying to get a release of those persons or of such a number of persons?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you referring to the other
22 warring party, Your Honour?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, how to reconcile your answer that you never
1 found out about such a number present in that area, although you say that
2 you -- the other party was seeking to have them released?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in contact constantly with
4 the State Commission of Republika Srpska and the Federal State Commission
5 for Exchange, and I know the people insisted on these exchanges to be
6 carried out by both sides, without mentioning any numbers. I never knew
7 how many people were detained at any point in time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And you are not even aware that these were numbers,
9 well, close to at least a few thousand?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never heard the exact numbers, and
11 I was never informed.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking about the exact numbers. I'm asking
13 about approximate numbers, whether it be two thousand, three thousand,
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And you, as minister of justice, you were interested
17 to know, or were you not?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since there was the State
19 Commission, and people from all government levels were involved in that,
20 that was their responsibility; and, on the other hand, I was very often in
21 Sarajevo and other towns, where I was trying to build the judiciary
22 structure. They did inform me whether there were or were not people, but
23 about numbers and exchanges, I was never interested in that, because I
24 believe that not to be part of my jurisdiction.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You had no idea whether this exchange was about ten
1 people or a hundred people or a thousand people? You had no idea about
2 the approximate size of the number?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were several commissions,
4 Your Honour. In Grbavica, there was a man, I think Bulajic he was
5 responsible on behalf of the commission for exchanges. There was Vanovac,
6 who was also responsible --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, I'm not asking who was responsible for
8 the exchange. My question was whether you had an approximate -- an idea
9 of the approximate number of people involved in these exchanges. And I
10 asked you whether you knew whether it was ten, a hundred, a thousand, a
11 few thousand.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. I didn't know.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You had no idea.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew nothing about numbers.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Would you refrain from seeking
16 contact, then, Mr. Tomic. May I instruct you not to express in whatever
17 way anything in the direction of the witness.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
19 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Now, during the conversation of June 26 with Mr. Krajisnik, as
21 you've indicated, he sought the -- or inquired about Mr. Karamehmedovic
22 and whether or not he'd been released, and I believe you indicated
23 yesterday that on other occasions, Mr. Krajisnik had sought the release of
24 friends. Is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, were these friends whose release was sought by Mr. Krajisnik
2 people who had engaged in combat or taken up arms against the Bosnian Serb
4 A. I knew nothing about that, and I never inquired who these people
6 Q. Were they people, as far as you knew, who were suspected of any
8 A. You know how subordination and superiority in the government
9 functions. If somebody told me: Mandic, go there, and Karamehmedovic was
10 either in Kula or in Lukavica, where the army was running the centre, it
11 is important for me to have this man return to Sarajevo. I carried out
12 this order, I acted as a soldier carrying out his order. If I found the
13 man there, I would ask the army to release him, or if -- or the police who
14 were holding them, I would tell them that Mr. Krajisnik had ordered me to
15 bring this man to Vrbanja and that he be released to go back to Sarajevo.
16 And I would personally escort this person and then inform Mr. Krajisnik
17 that I had carried out his instruction.
18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the Court may wish to go on. I'm only
19 pausing because I don't know whether given the stops and starts whether
20 the Court wishes to stick with the normal schedule.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm afraid we can't stick with the normal
22 schedule to the extent that we might be running out of tapes. I would say
23 if -- have you dealt with this document or would you continue with that?
24 MR. TIEGER: I think I'm finished with the document, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Tieger, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'll repeat what you said. You think
3 you're finished with the document. We'll have a break, but before having
4 a break, I'd like to ask a few questions to the witness in relation to
5 this document first.
6 Mr. Mandic, I'm interested in that 400 people that were in Kula,
7 as you told us. Were they men, women, children? What was the
8 composition? More or less, not in detail, of course, but ...
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that there were men, women,
10 and children, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Ages? All ...
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was a long time ago. It's
13 difficult for me to remember. But I do know that they had come from the
14 Dobrinja neighbourhood, that they had been frightened, and that they
15 wanted to leave that area.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were they exchanged?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honours. On my own
18 initiative, and with the approval of Mico Stanisic and Tepavcevic, who
19 were heads of the police, took those people to the Vrbanja Most, which is
20 a borderline between the Serbian-controlled Sarajevo and the federal
21 Sarajevo, and I escorted them wherever they wanted to go. I did that
22 without any knowledge of any Exchange Commission or whoever.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that would be true for the men in the group
24 as well?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the people who were in this
1 group I took across the Vrbanja Most to Sarajevo.
2 JUDGE ORIE: May I draw your attention to that part of the
3 transcript of the intercept, where it reads -- it's in English. It's the
4 third page, but I'll read it in its entirety to you so that you can hear
5 it. When Mr. Krajisnik asked: "And what is that he wants?", referring to
6 Mr. Vukovic. You said: "War prisoners. No, they're ex for them.
7 They're hardly interested in people. They're interested in ammunition and
8 meat, and now we let those women and children go to Vrbanja, to go to
9 their own people. He says that's ethnic cleansing what we do." You make
10 reference to women and children to be brought to Vrbanja. Could you
11 explain this part of your conversation, where you said they were not
12 interested in -- they were interested in -- or they were not interested in
13 people, and you mentioned war prisoners in that respect. Could you
14 explain this part, and also why you only referred to women and children
15 when you said that you let those go to Vrbanja.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I took that group to Vrbanja,
17 the problem was that the Sarajevo authorities didn't want to receive them.
18 They had problems with the food. And, for instance -- this may be
19 switching to another subject, perhaps. At the time, the Sarajevo
20 authorities didn't even allow children to leave Sarajevo. The problem
21 they had was food and accommodation. That's at least how I understood it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did these 400 people have a place to go, a
23 house, whatever?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I asked them where they wanted to
25 go, and they told me that they wanted to go to Sarajevo, where their
1 government and their authority was, where their relatives were. And once
2 they told me that that was their wish, I brought them to this borderline.
3 They just wanted to leave the Kula area, where I had found them. And I
4 fulfilled their request at my own initiative and I transferred these
5 people to safety. Whether they had accommodation provided them or not, I
6 didn't know.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Did any of them ask you to stay in the, well,
8 Serb-controlled territory and, for example, go to family there or to ...
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this particular case, I don't
10 remember. I think that they all wanted to leave, because there was
11 shooting and fighting around the airport. The Dobrinja neighbourhood was
12 very close to Kula, and they wanted to escape from the area where there
13 were war operations. No one wanted to stay behind. Later, or even before
14 that, it did happen that people wanted to go either to Serbia or
15 Montenegro just to escape the war-torn zones, and then those people were
16 transported by buses to Pale, first if they had family members in Serbia
17 or Montenegro, they were handed over to the Red Cross, and that was
18 undertaken by the Ministry of Health. I think that the minister at the
19 time was Dragan Kalinic.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say: "I think that they all wanted to
21 leave because there was shooting or fighting." How did you verify that?
22 Not the shooting and the fighting, but the wish to leave.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went inside. I asked them where
24 they were from. Some of them knew me personally, because before the war I
25 was living all the time in Sarajevo. I was a well-known sportsman. And
1 they asked me: Please help us leave this area. We have families in
2 Sarajevo. And the whole group who were frightened couldn't wait for us to
3 provide escort for them to take them to Sarajevo.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Now, at any later group, was there any exchange of
5 later groups? Because you said these 400 at that time, and then later the
6 exchange ...
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I was never -- I never
8 carried out exchanges. However, very often, at the request of my friends
9 or acquaintances from Sarajevo, went to either of the prisons where I
10 found people or family members, relatives of my acquaintances and friends,
11 and took them to where they wanted to go. I can give you the examples. I
12 can give you the names of those people, if it is relevant for this trial.
13 JUDGE ORIE: These were my questions for the time being.
14 We'll have a break until 20 minutes past 6.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 5.58 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 6.24 p.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness and
18 Mr. Tomic into the courtroom.
19 [Witness's counsel entered court]
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Tieger.
22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. I'd like to move on to Prosecution's next in order. That's
24 another intercepted telephone conversation bearing the ERN ET 0322-0195,
25 for the benefit of the booth, that's also on Sanction.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Is it on an existing CD, Mr. Tieger, or is it ...?
2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, we'll be delivering the CD.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar. The CD will then get number?
6 THE REGISTRAR: P443, and the transcript, P443.A.
7 MR. TIEGER: And I'll indicate, Your Honour, as we're about to
8 begin, that this is a conversation between Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Mandic on
9 July 1st, 1992.
10 [Intercept played]
11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]
12 Unidentified female: Hello?
13 Sipcic: Good afternoon, gorgeous.
14 Unidentified female: Good afternoon.
15 Sipcic: Sipcic.
16 Unidentified female: Excuse me?
17 Sipcic: Colonel Sipcic.
18 Unidentified female: Hey, good afternoon. How are you?
19 Sipcic: I'm okay. Thank you.
20 Unidentified female: Um ... I'm not used to this form of address,
21 you know ...
22 Sipcic: Tell me, is your boss in?
23 Unidentified female: Yes, the minister is in. Please hold on,
25 Sipcic: Please ...
1 Momcilo MANDIC: Hello?
2 Sipcic: Hello, Mr. Minister.
3 Momcilo MANDIC: Hello, General.
4 Sipcic: Where the heck have you been?
5 Momcilo MANDIC: I'm right here. Yesterday I ... You weren't
6 working. You weren't there?
7 Sipcic: What do you mean I wasn't? Yesterday was the worst day
8 of my life.
9 Momcilo MANDIC: Either yesterday or the day before. It must have
10 been yesterday you weren't there. Your fellow countryman would have
11 known ...
12 Sipcic: ...
13 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes, it was around 1200 hours.
14 Sipcic: I was in the field. Will you stop by?
15 Momcilo MANDIC: I will.
16 Sipcic: Here, the president wants to talk to you. Hello?
17 Momcilo MANDIC: Sure. I'll come by. When will you be free?
18 Sipcic: I'll be here all the time.
19 Momcilo MANDIC: All right. I'll come when they're done.
20 Sipcic: All right.
21 Momcilo MANDIC: Deal.
22 Sipcic: Hold on.
23 Momcilo MANDIC: I'll see you.
24 Momcilo MANDIC: Hello.
25 Radovan KARADZIC: All the best, Mr. President.
1 Radovan KARADZIC: What's up, Momo.
2 Momcilo MANDIC: Well not much. I've just been to a government
3 session and I'm here now.
4 Radovan KARADZIC: Uh-huh.
5 Momcilo MANDIC: We're working on an exchange now. We're
6 evacuating some Serbs from Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija.
7 Radovan KARADZIC: Oh, that's very important.
8 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.
9 Radovan KARADZIC: We'll immediately /mobilise/ those fit for
10 combat and the rest of them ...
11 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes, we're evacuating them.
12 Radovan KARADZIC: How many will there be?
13 Momcilo MANDIC: Well, I don't really know. We have many on the
14 list. There are 300 people from Hadzici, Muslims, who have been kept here
15 for seven days. No one's inquired about them, no one seems to care. I
16 don't know what to do.
17 Radovan KARADZIC: Why don't ...
18 Momcilo MANDIC: No one's interested in them, these Muslims ...
19 Radovan KARADZIC: Yeah.
20 Momcilo MANDIC: So we'll try to exchange them for these, um,
21 people from Hrasnica and ...
22 Radovan KARADZIC: Have you found that Croat in Kula for me?
23 Momcilo MANDIC: He's not there.
24 Radovan KARADZIC: Tomic. He must be in Kula.
25 Momcilo MANDIC: President, he's definitely not there. All the
1 Croats are gone. There are no more Croats in Kula.
2 Radovan KARADZIC: No, no he was arrested earlier. He's not in
4 Momcilo MANDIC: President all Croats have been exchanged. Here,
5 let me check again and I'll call you back in five minutes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, should we take out the two pages which
7 seem -- St. -- Archangel Michael, Patron Saint's Day, the MUP.
8 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. I noticed that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Everyone is invited to take out what seems to be a
10 press clipping rather than a transcript of an intercept.
11 MR. STEWART: Excuse me. Is this 411 and 443 or one of them?
12 We're just trying to keep track of exhibits here.
13 MR. TIEGER: 443.
14 MR. STEWART: It wasn't 411 as well, then?
15 MR. TIEGER: Not to my knowledge.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please check what's 411,
17 because there seems to be some confusion.
18 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
19 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I'll check meanwhile.
21 MR. TIEGER: I agree. We can straighten out the exhibit number.
22 I appreciate that. We'll certainly be looking for that.
23 Q. Mr. Mandic, Exhibit 443, as we indicated, is a conversation
24 between you and Dr. Karadzic on July 1st, 1992. As you can see from
25 the -- as you may have noticed from the transcript, the portion which was
1 played in Court is not the entirety of the recorded conversation that took
2 place. As you can see from the bottom of your transcript, it ends where
3 you say: "I'll be there in a half-hour or so and I'll call you back in
4 five or ten minutes." Dr. Karadzic says: "Deal." And you say: "Have a
5 good one. See you."
6 So at some point we may be referring to some portion of the -- I'm
7 going to try to limit my questions to that portion of the transcript
8 that was actually played out loud, although I note that it ended where you
9 say: "Here, let me check again and I'll call you back in five minutes."
10 And the conversation regarding that general topic seems to continue with
11 Dr. Karadzic saying: "All right. If he's not there, let's then look for
12 him somewhere else." And you say: "Well, does the person who is asking
13 about Tomic know where he was taken to, where he was picked up?" And
14 Dr. Karadzic says: "There were three brothers. Two of them were
15 released in Ilidza and the third one was kept in Ilidza and transferred to
16 Kula. That's what happened. They were arrested in Ilidza." And you
17 say: "President, I'll call you back in five minutes."
18 And then it seems to move to another topic.
19 If I can direct your attention to roughly the beginning of your
20 conversation with Dr. Karadzic after you've spoken with Sipcic. You
21 advise him that: "We're working on an exchange now. We're evacuating
22 some Serbs from Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija." And Dr. Karadzic says,
23 "Oh, that's very important." You say, "Yes." And he says, "We'll
24 immediately," and then there's the word "mobilise" in brackets, "those fit
25 for combat and the rest of them."
1 Can you tell us what Dr. Karadzic was indicating would be -- would
2 happen with respect to those Serbs who were being evacuated from Hrasnica
3 and Sokolovic Kolonija once that evacuation was successful.
4 A. With the Serbs who were not fit for fighting?
5 Q. No. With the Serbs who were.
6 A. They would probably be handed over to the army and be mobilised
7 for the able-bodied Serb males.
8 Q. Okay, so those Serbs from Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija were
9 going to be brought to the --
10 A. They would be handed over to the army to be mobilised and to
11 become members of the Army of Republika Srpska. That is how I understand
13 Q. Dr. Karadzic wanted to know how many there would be, and you
14 indicated that you weren't sure. And then you advised him that there were
15 300 people from Hadzici, Muslims, who had been kept here for seven days."
16 Where were those 300 people, those 300 Muslims, being kept?
17 A. In Kula, Mr. Prosecutor.
18 Q. And those people, were they men, women, children, a combination?
19 A. I don't remember, believe me. Most probably, since those were 300
20 people, or men, they could have been men, adult men. When they say
21 "people," they may have referred to adult men, but I'm not sure.
22 Q. And the Serbs from Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija were going to
23 come to the Bosnian Serb side, and those 300 people in Kula were going to
24 go to the Muslim side; is that correct?
25 A. My parents used to live in Hrasnica, and in those days, I tried to
1 pull them out from Hrasnica that was under the Muslim control, and I did
2 that on my own initiative, and together with them, I included my
3 neighbours, because there were very few Serbs living there. The problem
4 was, and I told you that before we took a break, that the State Commission
5 of the Federation and the people from Sarajevo didn't want to accept the
6 people from Kula, for instance, these women and children from Hadzici,
7 because there were war operations going on. They probably had problems
8 with accommodation, food, et cetera. I asked Mr. Tepavcevic and Ratko and
9 these administration clerks not to have these people stay there, but
10 rather to have them leave the area. I came to the conclusion that people
11 were waiting there for seven days, that nobody wanted to take them in and
12 nobody was expressing any interest in them. That's the problem that I
13 presented to Dr. Radovan Karadzic.
14 Q. Did you explain to Dr. Karadzic who those people were and how they
15 had come to be at Kula?
16 A. Probably -- well, no. No, I didn't. You can see from the
17 telephone conversation itself that I didn't explain. Most probably, these
18 were people from Hadzici who the police from Hadzici brought to Kula.
19 Because the Serb forces held the municipality of Hadzici.
20 Q. You indicated that you didn't explain to Dr. Karadzic who those
21 people in Kula were. Was it your understanding at the time the
22 conversation took place that he didn't require an explanation of who they
23 were because he already knew about them?
24 A. General Sipcic was at the Slavisa Vajner Cica barracks. That's
25 the name before the war. That's 200 miles away from Kula. So I was
1 coming from the government session that was held probably at the Bistrica
2 hotel in Jahorina, and when I came, I explained to them that I had just
3 arrived five minutes before that and that I had received information that
4 there were these people here who had been there for seven days already,
5 either Tepavcevic or somebody else had told me about that. So I informed
6 the president of Republika Srpska what this was all about. He did not
7 express particular interest in this, but I believe that he knew what this
8 was all about, because police and military structures informed him about
9 what was going on in the territory.
10 Q. By the way, you mentioned your efforts to get your parents out of
11 Hrasnica. Did your parents want to leave Hrasnica or did they want to
12 stay, as it turned out?
13 A. I wouldn't like to go into that, if at all possible, please.
14 Q. I don't think that's such an important issue at this point.
15 JUDGE ORIE: May I seek to clarify an earlier answer of the
16 witness, Mr. Tieger.
17 But I'll first give you, Mr. Mandic, the time you need. If you
18 need more time, tell me. If you are ready to respond to my next
19 questions, please let me know.
20 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Mandic, you explained to us about the
22 300 people from Hadzici, and you explained that no one wanted to receive
23 them. You said they were waiting for seven days. Earlier you were asked
24 whether these were men or -- and then you said: I don't remember. But
25 that might have been a reference to men, the word "people" used. Here you
1 say in your last answer, you say "women and children." "These women and
2 children from Hadzici." Does that mean that you now do remember that
3 these were women and children? You said the people from Sarajevo didn't
4 want to accept the people from Kula. For instance, "these women and
5 children from Hadzici, because there were war operations going on." And
6 then later on you referred to the seven days they had been waiting.
7 Were there women and children included?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You said no one was interested to receive them, and
10 you explained that by saying that: "They probably had problems with
11 accommodation, food, et cetera." Now, they were not interested, as you
12 told us, to receive these women and children. A few lines later, you
13 say: "So we'll try to exchange them for these, um, people from Hrasnica."
14 If no one is interested to receive them, would they be encouraged by your
15 request to get people from Hrasnica?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I often went down there to Kula, and
17 I insisted -- I asked Mr. Tepavcevic and these other people not to keep
18 these persons who were put there due to war operations in the prison, to
19 get them out of there as soon as possible, either to Sarajevo or
20 elsewhere, or if somebody wanted to go to Serbia, Montenegro, or some
21 other area. But there were children there and women there and adult men,
22 that they should not be kept there.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. That's what I understand. But now,
24 from this telephone conversation, I understand that you'd like to have
25 Serbs from Hrasnica to, as far as I understand, to immediately mobilise
1 those fit for combat. So I take it these were men of military age, or at
2 least, well, unless you would like to -- if that's not correct, please
3 tell me.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dr. Karadzic said: We are going to
5 send all of those who are capable of fighting. It was his sentence. And
6 then I only confirmed that. It is Dr. Karadzic who actually said that
7 they should be mobilised, the Serbs.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not saying that you instructed such mobilisation,
9 but you were talking about people, and when Mr. Karadzic says "We'll
10 mobilise them," if these would have been small children, I take it that
11 you would have said it's impossible because they're small children.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, logically.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, at least among them, if not all, were men
14 of military age? Yes?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not know about the composition
16 of this group. But let me just explain this, Your Honour. This was a
17 neighbourhood that was separated from Sarajevo. They did not have any
18 contact. So when Serbs --
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm first putting my questions to you, and then if
20 you would like to add something, you may do so.
21 What now if a group of people, most likely including men of
22 military age, if you would like to have them? And you say: I'll try to
23 exchange them. How is this to be reconciled with your concern to give
24 people a safe place and to protect them from war operations? What's the
25 use of: "We'll try to exchange them." Why an exchange? You want
1 military men, and you just told us that these Hadzici people at least
2 included women and children. Why not let the women and children go and
3 ask politely to have the men of military age to be sent to your -- the
4 territory under your control?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you understood this, Your Honour,
6 I informed Radovan that it had been already seven days that no one wanted
7 those people from Kula. I could not order my subordinates to send them to
8 Sarajevo. Nobody wanted to receive them in the places where they wanted
9 to go, that is to say, to the territory where the other side was in power.
10 And these people didn't know what to do with them.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if you, in return, would ask for the
12 military-aged men, at least a group including military-aged men from
13 Hrasnica, then you thought the chances would be better?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I tried to send them there to
15 Hrasnica so that the local people, the government there in Hrasnica, would
16 receive them. There were several governments there, locally. There was
17 not a single government either on the Serb side or on the Muslim side. So
18 no one wanted to listen to the other ones, and there wasn't any good
19 coordination there.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But the core of my question is: Where you say --
21 let's -- let me put it very bluntly. I can't get rid of these women and
22 children who need protection against war operations that lasts already
23 seven days. Let me, in return to that, ask for some -- a group of people,
24 among which military-able men, in return, and then you would expect
25 that -- I mean, I'm trying to understand the logic of it. Would you then
1 expect it, if you ask -- you would ask in return for the Hrasnica people,
2 of which Mr. Karadzic said, "Let's mobilise them and let's" -- those fit
3 for combat, what's the logic of having a better chance to, well, again,
4 bluntly, to get rid of the women and children if you ask in return for
5 military men, at least a group including military men, the expectation
6 that they would be of any good for military purposes? I'm trying to
7 understand the logic.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I asked for my own
9 family and neighbours from Hrasnica. They were probably Serbs who were of
10 military age there as well. But what was the most important thing for me
11 was to get this small group of people out of Hrasnica. They were detained
12 there at the school, tortured, et cetera. So, in a way, if these people
13 from Sarajevo didn't want to receive this group of people from Hadzici,
14 less these people from Hrasnica take them in. Let them go anywhere. Just
15 let's not keep them in the prison in Kula. Several times, people
16 complained to me, people who were involved in exchanges. They would tell
17 me that if people came from, say, Hadzici, Ilijas, Ilidza, Vogosca, where
18 the Serbs controlled the territory, in Sarajevo, they simply did not want
19 to take them in and these people could not get in.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then you thought an offer to exchange them
21 would have better chances; is that a correct understanding of your
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER:
1 Q. Mr. Mandic, do you recall how you determined that there were no
2 more Croats in Kula? And I'm referring to a portion of your conversation
3 with Dr. Karadzic that occurred just after that portion we've been
5 A. Probably up there in Pale or somewhere, Dr. Karadzic asked to have
6 the Tomic brothers found, to be exchanged, to be returned to their
7 families. I took this task seriously and I was looking for these people.
8 I asked Tepavcevic or whoever else was down there whether they were on the
9 lists and whether these people were in Kula. And they said no. Then I
10 informed Dr. Karadzic about that.
11 Q. And during -- I take it that during the course of that -- the
12 effort you've just described, you were advised that there were no more
13 Croats in Kula, or did you learn from some other effort?
14 A. When I asked: Is Tomic there? And then the people who worked
15 down there who were in charge of exchanges, they're either at a local
16 level of the municipality of Ilidza or Sarajevo or the Central Commission,
17 whatever, they told me that there was not a single ethnic Croat in prison,
18 and this man was a Croat. Therefore, I knew that that man was not there
19 either. Because I was not aware of who all the people in prison were
20 before I would ask the chief of police, Tepavcevic, or one of the
21 commanders who was here, and then they would report to me and inform me
22 about who was there if I came on a specific assignment.
23 The seat of the government was in Pale, or rather, in Jahorina,
24 and I would come every now and then because of my work for the judiciary.
25 And then, in addition to other things, I would do things for Dr. Karadzic,
1 Mr. Krajisnik, and others if they asked me to do something specific.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm looking at the clock. We're close to
3 7.00. Would this be a --
4 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- suitable time to -- yes.
6 A few procedural issues. It's no problem if the witness is still
7 there. First of all, Mr. Tieger, Mr. Stewart more or less suggested that
8 443 might be the same as 411. I see no difference between the two of
9 them. If there is any difference, please tell us. Otherwise, 443 should
10 be not admitted, being the same document already admitted.
11 MR. TIEGER: I agree, Your Honour. And I thank Mr. Stewart for
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the second issue: We have been confronted
14 with some nasty translation problems in respect of P292, which had been
15 admitted in evidence already. That was the issue about "did they leave"
16 or -- three translations. We earlier had a similar problem with "they've
17 already been transferred" or "are already crossing over there." The
18 Chamber would very much like that you take care to review P292 very
19 carefully, provide a translation without mistakes, preferably, so that it
20 could replace P292.1 as the English translation of that telephone
22 Then I draw the attention to the parties that we still have this
23 issue of listening to the tape exactly, listening to the audiotape to find
24 out exactly what the answer of the witness was, the issue whether it was
25 "report" or "inform." You remember that. I'll ask the registrar to
1 provide that portion of the tape. You will not have it available at this
2 moment, because it's part of the same session where we went into an ex
3 parte hearing.
4 But would you please get in touch with the -- and both parties get
5 in touch with the registrar to find out whether there's any need for
7 Apart from that, we are close to the weekend, so although we are
8 past 7.00 already, is there any issue, any procedural issue? I'm not
9 inviting you, but just asking you whether there's any urgent procedural
10 issue we have to address now. No.
11 Then, Madam Registrar, we'll continue next Monday in Courtroom II,
12 at 9.00. We adjourn until then.
13 I have to apologise. I've forgotten to instruct you, Mr. Mandic,
14 not to speak with anyone about your testimony still to be given or still
15 about to be given. We are then now adjourned until next Monday morning,
16 9.00, Courtroom II.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Monday, the 29th day of
19 November 2004, at 9.00 a.m.