Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8910

1 Monday, 29 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Madam Registrar, would you please call

6 the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

8 Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Good morning to everyone. Mr. Tieger, are you ready to resume the

11 examination-in-chief of Mr. Mandic?

12 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Mandic

14 and Mr. Tomic into the courtroom.

15 [Witness's counsel entered court]

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

18 Good morning, Mr. Tomic.

19 Mr. Mandic, I'd like to remind you --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the

22 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that

23 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 Mr. Tieger, please continue


Page 8911

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 Examined by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Mandic. Good morning, Mr. Tomic.

4 Mr. Mandic, I'd like to remind you --

5 WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the

7 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, that

8 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

9 MR. Tieger, please proceed.

10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

12 A. Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, Prosecution's next in order is marked as

14 ERN 0084-8625. It's an order of 13 June 1992 by General Subotic.

15 MR. TIEGER: Colonel Subotic at that time, the minister of

16 defence.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number P ...


19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


21 Q. Mr. Mandic, I'd give you a quick moment for you to look at that

22 document and then I'll direct your attention to item number 19 at the very

23 end of the document, just above Colonel Subotic's name and signature.

24 Paragraph 19 states that: "The commission for the exchange of

25 prisoners operating under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice of

Page 8912

1 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina shall also function as an

2 information bureau for providing information on captured persons."

3 First of all, Mr. Mandic, does item 19 refer to the Commission for

4 Exchange that we've been discussing during the course of your testimony?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was envisioned by paragraph's 19 directive that the

7 Commission for Exchange should function as an information bureau regarding

8 captured persons? What kind of information was it supposed to provide and

9 disseminate?

10 A. In this item of the defence minister's order, Bogdan Subotic, he

11 informs that the Exchange Commission attached to the Ministry of Justice,

12 but not part of the Ministry of Justice; it just relies on the Ministry of

13 Justice. It probably refers to expert assistance or any other assistance

14 to be rendered to the commission. And then the commission will act as an

15 information pool or hub for details about the detained people to compile

16 centralised lists and to inform the army or police structures when and how

17 many people were in custody. As we said last time, a State Commission was

18 established at the level of the government of Republika Srpska, and

19 according to the opinion and the order of Bogdan Subotic, this commission

20 was just attached to the Ministry of Justice. It was not part of the

21 Ministry of Justice.

22 Q. Mr. Mandic, can I ask you to turn to Prosecution's next in order,

23 minutes from the 30th session of the government, held on 17 June 1992.



Page 8913

1 Q. Mr. Mandic, as the minutes of the session indicate, the chairman

2 of the session was Professor Djeric, the prime minister. The minutes also

3 indicate those who were present, and as you may note, before the agenda

4 items begin, the minutes note that among those absent with a reason was

5 yourself.

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. If I could ask you to turn to the last page of the minutes, indeed

8 the last paragraph. That paragraph states that: "The government has

9 concluded that all measures be taken promptly for a more efficient work of

10 the Republic Commission for the Exchange of Prisoners. With regard to

11 this fact, it is necessary to secure the accommodation and other

12 conditions according to a previous decision of the government, the

13 Ministry of Justice is in charge."

14 Mr. Mandic, do you recall the government's concern about the

15 efficiency of the work of the Republic Commission for the exchange of

16 prisoners in approximately the middle of June 1992?

17 A. Yes, I do.

18 Q. And what was that concern?

19 A. The government wanted that the civilian authorities gradually take

20 power in the territory of Republika Srpska, and this partially referred to

21 prisons as well, or rather, the places where either POWs or other

22 individuals were placed that had been relocated from places engulfed in

23 war operations. Initially, there was some disagreement and some confusion

24 about the responsibilities and competence of this State Commission for

25 exchange of POWs, namely, if we think back that a few days ago we saw that

Page 8914

1 at the first session of the government and the National Security Council,

2 it was said that a commission would be established in the Ministry of

3 Justice. However, after that, the government decided to establish a State

4 Commission at the level of the government of Republika Srpska.

5 After that, Rajko Colovic, who acted on behalf of Ministry of

6 Justice, and he was an assistant in the pre-war government in charge of

7 prisons, and penal and correctional facilities, issued an order on how the

8 detained persons were to be treated, including the persons who were placed

9 in isolation.

10 After that, he unconditionally went to Vlasenica to take the

11 position of the president of the municipal court, which is about 70

12 kilometres away from the government seat. In this interim period, until

13 the appropriate chairman of the commission was found, my co-workers and I,

14 during the preparation for establishing the Ministry of Justice, I did

15 discharge some duties relating to the coordination of the work of the

16 commission. The government concluded that it was not going well, and it

17 seems to me that this decision refers to that particular issue. In other

18 words, that the commission should have one seat, that it be granted

19 conditions for unhindered work, which means proper accommodation and

20 proper personnel. At the time, Vanovac was appointed chairman of the

21 commission - I don't know what his first name was - from Ilidza, and he

22 was, according to the hierarchy, a member of one of those lesser

23 commissions for exchange and he was not even registered with the Ministry

24 of Justice. Therefore, Minister Mandic and the minister of justice were

25 in charge of reinforcing them in terms of personnel, to coordinate the

Page 8915












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Page 8916

1 work, and to allow this State Commission to start working later in this

2 field. That is how I interpret these decisions and this conclusion of the

3 government of the Republika Srpska, adopted at the session that I did not

4 attend.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, may I just ask the following. On page 5,

6 line 18, the name does not appear, but my recollection is that it was

7 translated to us as minister Mandic and the minister of justice. Could

8 you please repeat what you said. Before you said that they were in charge

9 of reinforcing them in terms of personnel to coordinate the work, which

10 name did you mention? Mr. Mandic?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was a little bit

12 confused. I mentioned my name, Momcilo Mandic, as the minister of

13 justice.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Minister of justice. That clarifies the issue.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


17 Q. Mr. Mandic, you indicated that the --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Now on the transcript -- perhaps I spoke too quickly.

19 I said yes, as the minister of justice. And the word "as" is missing on

20 the transcript. Yes, please proceed.


22 Q. Mr. Mandic, you indicated that the government concluded that it

23 was not going well. Did that conclusion that the work of the Exchange

24 Commission was not going well include governments -- the government's

25 concern about conditions in detention facilities and camps?

Page 8917

1 A. Among other things, yes.

2 Q. What was the situation in respect of conditions in detention

3 facilities and camps that were safeguarded by the army and police? And if

4 it's necessary to break that down into separate facilities, please do so.

5 A. Mr. Prosecutor, can you -- can I please answer questions one by

6 one, possible?

7 Q. What was the situation in respect of conditions and accommodations

8 detention in facilities and were guarded by or held by the police?

9 A. The government, as an executive branch, was not capable to

10 supervise directly the facilities that were safeguarded mainly by the army

11 and to a lesser extent by the police. Various reports and information

12 came from the ground about irregularities and inhuman treatment in these

13 facilities in certain parts of the Republika Srpska and

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Those were at the time independent districts and the

15 government tried to overcome this situation at the time when the roads

16 were blocked and when it was impossible to provide free movement not only

17 throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole but also Republika Srpska. So

18 the whole territory was criss-crossed and it was very difficult to

19 coordinate and to have direct insight into these camps.

20 Therefore, the government tried in every possible way, and you can

21 see here they even appointed the commissions and the people to act as

22 envoy of the government to go on the ground, to review the situation, and

23 to work in solving these problems. You can see here that it's mentioned

24 independent district of Semberija, eastern Herzegovina, and others.

25 Therefore, the problems were not only with detention facilities, but also

Page 8918

1 with other aspects of everyday life in certain parts of Republika Srpska.

2 Q. Do you recall that the Assembly of the -- the Serbian Assembly,

3 the Bosnian Serb Assembly, met at various points during 1992?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. And at those Assembly sessions, deputies or representatives from

6 the various municipalities would gather at the Assembly?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was that one place where there was an opportunity for

9 communication about conditions in the field?

10 A. Well, the government on several occasions raised various issues

11 that they were not able to resolve themselves. Since according to our

12 constitution, it was entitled to propose to the president of the Assembly

13 to convene the Assembly, to address specific issues, and that happened on

14 several occasions. The point was to solve the vital problems of the

15 functioning of the government, including, among other things, the

16 detainees, the camps, and other issues, because they -- the government was

17 attempting also through the Assembly to have the prisons and other

18 facilities be transferred to the civilian authorities rather than the army

19 and police authorities, which was eventually done in 1992, by the end of

20 1992.

21 Q. In what other ways did the government or representatives of the

22 government attempt to address its concerns about irregularities and

23 inhumane treatment in detention facilities and camps?

24 A. A commission was established in the government, tasked with

25 visiting all places where POWs were detained in the Serbian Republic of

Page 8919

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I think that one of the members, or even the

2 chairman of the commission, was my assistant from the Ministry of Justice,

3 Slobodan Avlijas, who was the assistant for prisons, and for this specific

4 area.

5 Q. Did the government make known to the Presidency its concerns about

6 irregularities and inhumane treatment in detention facilities and camps?

7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, are you referring to the Presidency of Republika

8 Srpska?

9 Q. Yes.

10 A. Yes. That was done on a daily basis. The communications and

11 reports were discussed in order to overcome these problems that arose at

12 the beginning of 1992, when the whole war chaos broke out.

13 Q. And we were talking about government session in June 1992. In

14 June 1992, through the beginning of December 1992, who were the members of

15 the Presidency of Republika Srpska?

16 A. Members of the Presidency of Republika Srpska were

17 Dr. Radovan Karadzic, president, and members were Dr. Biljana Plavsic and

18 Dr. Nikola Koljevic.

19 Q. Were you aware, do you recall, Mr. Mandic, that -- of an Expanded

20 Presidency that was formed during the course of 1992?

21 A. Yes, I was.

22 Q. Who were the members of that Expanded Presidency?

23 A. I think that it was published in the Official Gazette, and as a

24 law, as far as I can recall, the members of the Expanded Presidency were

25 the president of the Republic, members of the Presidency, the commander of

Page 8920

1 the war staff, the commander of the army, the prime minister, the defence

2 minister, the minister of the interior, and most probably the president of

3 the Assembly, but I'm not sure about this last person. I cannot say

4 exactly, but I think it was.

5 There is an Official Gazette that it was published as a law.

6 Q. Do you recall sending yourself a letter to the Presidency, or more

7 than one letter to the Presidency, in 1992?

8 A. Dealing with what, Mr. Prosecutor?

9 Q. First, a general question about whether you recall sending any

10 communication, any letters to the Presidency.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And was one of those letters a complaint about the failure of the

13 Presidency to respond to a request by you to have the Ministry of Justice

14 take over the competence of military courts?

15 A. In mid-1992, after consulting members of the government and

16 members of the ministry, requested to have a centralised Ministry of

17 Justice at the level of Republika Srpska. I asked the president of the

18 Republic to review my request to merge, or rather, to have the military

19 and civilian judiciary to become one, in order to become more efficient,

20 and that would be beneficial to the legal security and to the rule of law

21 in Republika Srpska. However, I requested that on two occasions, and I

22 even wanted to have a meeting, and I also -- think I had a consultative

23 meeting with the leaders of the military prosecutor's office and

24 judiciary, but I had never received any response from the president of the

25 state, either positive or negative, and that was one of the reasons why,

Page 8921












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13 French transcripts correspond













Page 8922

1 towards the end of that year, I wanted to leave the judiciary.

2 Q. And is it correct that the second of those requests was in August

3 of 1992?

4 A. Yes, it is.

5 Q. Was that directed to the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. I don't know whether it was addressed either to the Presidency or

8 the president, but I definitely sent this letter for the second time,

9 where I requested a unified or single judiciary to be established.

10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, perhaps the witness can be shown ET

11 0323-4335. Your Honour, in keeping with the Court's order, I note that

12 that was a document that was disclosed on 15 November. It's a

13 one-paragraph document.


15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, the Chamber wanted to be informed about

16 any recently disclosed documents. Is there any observation in this

17 respect you'd like to make?

18 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour. The date is sufficient

19 observation.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.


22 Q. Mr. Mandic, is P445 a letter dated August 5th, 1992, directed to

23 the Presidency of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, underneath it

24 says Dr. Radovan Karadzic, and signed by yourself, as minister of justice,

25 the document to which you were referring a moment ago?

Page 8923

1 A. I have to correct you in one element, Mr. Prosecutor. It wasn't I

2 who signed this letter. It does bear my name and surname, but it was

3 signed on my behalf most probably by Slobodan Velasevic, assistant to the

4 minister in charge of the judiciary. The rest is true.

5 Q. Thank you for that clarification, Mr. Mandic. And who were the

6 members of the presidency to whom you directed this communication when you

7 sent it?

8 A. Dr. Radovan Karadzic, Biljana Plavsic, and Nikola Koljevic.

9 Q. Mr. Mandic, might it refresh your recollection about the

10 membership of the Presidency at that time if I directed your attention to

11 a portion of the interview between you and representatives of the OTP in

12 March of this year? Specifically, if I could direct your attention to the

13 page -- and Court's attention and counsel's attention to page 116.

14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, does the witness have the B/C/S

15 translation of his interview?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, is there a B/C/S version?

17 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Does the Defence --

19 MR. STEWART: When I say translation, Your Honour, we appreciate

20 it's that rather mixed animal of B/C/S and English, depending on who was

21 talking and who was ...

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's why I said "version."

23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour is quite right to make that correction.

24 Thank you.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Does the Defence have the B/C/S copy for the benefit

Page 8924

1 of Mr. Krajisnik?

2 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. Ms. Cmeric and Mr. Krajisnik have

3 both got that, as far as I'm aware. We believe it's page 130 of the

4 B/C/S, Ms. Cmeric tells me.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much for your assistance.

6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. Mr. Mandic, I want to direct your

7 attention to what I understand is page 130 in the B/C/S version and page

8 116 in the English translation.

9 Q. As we can see in the English translation, beginning at line 21,

10 there is a discussion about the August 5th, 1992 letter to the Presidency.

11 You state: "I have to explain that the resentment I had towards Karadzic

12 and the leadership that ... because they refused that unified judiciary be

13 formed. And I was of opinion [sic] that military judiciary was

14 functioning quite poorly, if at all. Yes, they did reach some decisions

15 and verdicts, but in my opinion, it did not work appropriately."

16 And the question was: "When you say Karadzic and the leadership,

17 who are you referring to?" Your answer was: "I think I sent it to the

18 Presidency, Biljana, Nikola, Momo Krajisnik, and Karadzic."

19 Mr. Mandic, does that refresh your recollection about the

20 composition of the Presidency in August of 1992?

21 A. It is -- I'm quite certain that Momcilo Krajisnik was not a member

22 of the Presidency in this sense. When I was talking about the leadership,

23 I did inform Mr. Krajisnik also about my opinion and request concerning

24 the unification of the judiciary because it didn't function well. But not

25 in these terms. The Presidency was composed of the president,

Page 8925

1 Radovan Karadzic, and two members, that is, previously two presidents from

2 the former Yugoslav system that were part of the earlier pre-war

3 Presidency, that is, Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic. Here, I either

4 made a mistake because I thought of leaders in general, but Momcilo

5 Krajisnik was certainly not a member of the Presidency in terms of this

6 letter that I sent. It is true that I reported -- I informed the

7 president of the Assembly on these matters even verbally, maybe I even

8 sent him a letter, about this idea of mine that it would be good for the

9 judiciary to be unified, and he supported my idea, because the courts

10 functioned poorly, there was no harmonisation, many mistakes were made,

11 and I, as a lawyer, a legalist, could not cope with that, and I thought

12 that we needed to improve the judiciary in our state.

13 Q. Did you inform Mr. Krajisnik about the --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


16 Q. Did you inform Mr. Krajisnik about the consequences or effects of

17 the poorly functioning judiciary?

18 A. I mostly consulted Mr. Krajisnik on this issue and he helped me

19 greatly, because he was informed about the issue of the poor functioning

20 of the judiciary, and it seemed to me that I had his support in this idea

21 of mine to unify the judicial system at the level of Republika Srpska,

22 because we lacked personnel, intercommunications, in order for the

23 judiciary to function as it should. But I did most certainly inform him

24 about this issue.

25 Q. Did the poor functioning of the judiciary have an impact on the

Page 8926

1 issue that was concerning the government, that is, the retention of people

2 in detention facilities and camps and their ill-treatment in those

3 facilities?

4 A. We, and when I say "we," I mean the government, we received a lot

5 of information from the ground, negative information, concerning camps,

6 the emergence of camps, closing of camps, and the difficulty in the

7 practices of the judiciary, and we made great efforts in order for the

8 State Commission for Exchange to be equipped with cadre, to be based in

9 one place in order for it to function well, in order to tour all the camps

10 held mostly by the military, and some were held also by the police, in

11 order for the State Commission to have an insight into the situation, to

12 draw up a report, to submit it to the government, that would then address

13 the Assembly of Republika Srpska on this issue, which in fact it did. The

14 Assembly dealt with these issues on several occasions to solve the burning

15 problems on the ground.

16 Q. And is it fair to say that the poor functioning of the judiciary

17 exacerbated the problem of trying to improve the exchange of prisoners and

18 other detained persons or their -- or the conditions that they faced in

19 detention facilities?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I wish to make a -- well, it's an

22 observation, objection. It will be both. But it's one that I should make

23 in the light of Your Honour's observation the other day in the absence of

24 the witness.

25 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you have well thought it over whether

Page 8927

1 it's needed at this moment.

2 MR. STEWART: I have, Your Honour. I have to try and think

3 quickly, but then that's the name of the game.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, the Defence would like to make an

5 observation in your absence, so I have to invite you to follow

6 Madam Usher.

7 [The witness stands down]

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, may I take it that the presence of

9 Mr. Tomic in this open hearing is not a problem?

10 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, on the clear footing that

11 Mr. Tomic understands fully well and has throughout that he must have no

12 communication with Mr. Mandic in relation to this matter. He's a

13 professional and therefore I don't have any objection.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

15 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, is this: That at -- and I'm speaking

16 from memory, for the moment, but we can track back on the transcript if we

17 need to. I'm trying to avoid that. But at page 14, line 16, Mr. Tieger

18 asked: "Did you inform Mr. Krajisnik about the consequences or effects of

19 the poorly functioning judiciary?" And then over a series of further

20 questions, Mr. Tieger has been exploring what those consequences or

21 effects have been, and he has done that most recently by way of fairly

22 leading questions, which I haven't objected to as -- I haven't objected to

23 the specific questions themselves as being leading. But my point is this,

24 Your Honour, that clearly what Mr. Tieger wishes to do is establish that

25 this witness informed Mr. Krajisnik of specific consequences or effects of

Page 8928

1 the poorly functioning judiciary, and my observation is this, Your Honour:

2 That it should not be must not, in fairness, be done in an oblique way.

3 It should not be done by the foundation for an argument that there is a

4 link then between a general question, "Did you inform Mr. Krajisnik about

5 the consequences or effect of the poorly functioning judiciary?", coupled

6 then with eliciting some of those allegedly -- those alleged consequences

7 and effects by leading questions in that way. In other words, if

8 Mr. Tieger and the Prosecution wish eventually in this case to argue that

9 Mr. Krajisnik was specifically informed of consequences or effects, then

10 the questions must be specifically directed towards that, and the witness

11 should, because he's undergoing a species of cross-examination here, but

12 that must be put fairly and squarely to the witness so he understands

13 exactly what is being put.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, perhaps this is some kind of cultural

16 clash of judicial systems. This is properly a matter reserved for

17 cross-examination, number one, if there was an oblique reference or

18 indirect reference left hanging, then counsel is fully capable of

19 exploring it. Secondly, I have urged on repeated occasions to be

20 permitted the opportunity, and indeed perhaps the courtesy, of completing

21 my inquiry into a particular area. And I have not completed my questions

22 of this witness concerning this area. I don't think it will be left

23 oblique. I had no intention of leaving it oblique. This is really an

24 unnecessary disruption. We would have gotten to that very issue in

25 probably the very next question and now we've spent ten minutes talking

Page 8929

1 about it. I'm going on for a little bit because I'd like to curtail this

2 practice.

3 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I'm not prepared simply to allow

4 that. First of all, the cultural clashes between us are minor. All our

5 judicial cultures have as a fundamental element the concept of fairness

6 and fairness in examination of witnesses. There's no discourtesy intended

7 and I do slightly, I must say, Your Honour, I slightly resent the fact

8 that legitimate objections are characterised as discourtesy. We certainly

9 do our very best to observe the utmost courtesy and apologise if we don't.

10 But it is not reasonable to characterise legitimate objections by the

11 Defence team as continually being discourtesy. The point is this:

12 Mr. Tieger says that he is -- that if I hadn't interrupted, as he puts it,

13 he says that he would have got to the point. If he would have got to the

14 point then it's a little bit hard to see why he didn't get to the point

15 more directly already. Because we have had four or five questions

16 already. If he was going to put to this witness very specifically, as we

17 continue to submit he should do, if it's his case that these consequences

18 and effects were -- that Mr. Krajisnik was informed specifically and

19 directly, then it's hard to see why that wasn't put several questions ago.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 MR. TOMIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tomic. I think your main role here was to

23 see whether answering questions would incriminate Mr. Mandic. This is a

24 debate about the way of questioning the witness, and therefore, I --

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 8930

1 JUDGE ORIE: -- and therefore, the Court -- and therefore, at this

2 moment, the Court sees no reason to hear any observations from you.

3 Mr. Stewart, the objection is denied. The way in which Mr. Tieger

4 questions the witness is acceptable in the eyes of the Court.

5 The witness may be brought into the Court again. Mr. Tieger,

6 please proceed.

7 MR. STEWART: Ms. Cmeric says that Mr. Tomic had said that he used

8 the phrase he "wanted to protect the witness." We only say that,

9 Your Honour, for information. That's what we heard. And if that's --

10 well, then leave it in Your Honour's hands.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Of course it's a bit of a surprising moment, then,

12 because no question was put to the witness at this moment which -- well,

13 yes. If that last question would be the one, then --

14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm not introducing a debate,

15 Your Honour. I'm simply informing the Trial Chamber that that's what Ms.

16 Cmeric heard.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tomic, the question is whether the witness in

18 answering this question would incriminate himself or would tend to

19 incriminate himself.

20 MR. TOMIC: [Interpretation] I wanted to say the following: My

21 client has received a number of leading questions from the Prosecutor. I

22 didn't want to intervene in the beginning, but I do see that now this is

23 becoming quite serious.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tomic, Mr. Tomic, the way of questioning the

25 witness has got nothing to do with a possible incriminating effect. So

Page 8931

1 would you please limit yourself to that issue.

2 MR. TOMIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour. The leading

3 questions put to my client elicit from him answers that could be fatal for

4 him. I think that this constitutes abuse of the witness, and I would

5 kindly ask the Honourable Trial Chamber to caution the Prosecutor Tieger

6 about this. Because from time to time my client seems to be standing

7 trial here.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tomic, if any of the questions would cause you to

9 fear that by answering that question he would incriminate himself, you may

10 draw our attention to that, but the way in which the question is put is

11 not the relevant issue. And I'd like you to refrain from commenting on

12 the, may I say, the trial techniques, as to how to examine the witness.

13 You may be aware that the question of leading or non-leading

14 examination-in-chief and cross-examination is mainly a specific

15 technicality of the adversarial system, but as such is not something to

16 comment upon.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger, after the witness has been brought

18 into the courtroom again.

19 Mr. Tomic, thank you for your observation.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Mandic.

22 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

23 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.


Page 8932

1 Q. Mr. Mandic, I believe I had just asked whether the poor

2 functioning of the judiciary exacerbated the problem of exchanges and of

3 the government's attempt to deal with the problem of exchanges and

4 conditions in camps. And you answered that question. Did you inform

5 Mr. Krajisnik that the poor functioning of the judiciary was exacerbating

6 the problem of attempting to address the exchange of prisoners and

7 conditions in camps?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And did you tell him what you knew about conditions in camps?

10 A. I often communicated with Mr. Krajisnik and informed him about

11 different issues from the area of justice administration and different

12 events taking place in Republika Srpska, and particularly in Sarajevo,

13 where I had contacts. And often times I sought advice from Mr. Krajisnik

14 and assistance in pushing for some of my ideas to be transformed into

15 decisions and laws. Because the president of the Republic, under the

16 constitution of Republika Srpska, under Article 83 of the constitution, at

17 times of immediate war threat, could pass law decrees that would be later

18 on verified by the Assembly, and it was with this procedure in mind that I

19 asked from Mr. Karadzic and the Presidency to pass a law decree in order

20 to unify the judicial system, in order for the personnel from the military

21 and the civil branch to be unified, all of this with a view to

22 neutralising the problems and the difficulties that the judiciary faced at

23 the time.

24 Q. Did you tell Mr. Krajisnik what you had heard or were made aware

25 of concerning irregularities and inhumane treatment in detention

Page 8933

1 facilities and camps?

2 A. In general, I mostly informed Mr. Krajisnik of all the issues that

3 I was aware of, to consult with him on this particular branch of

4 government.

5 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, Prosecution's next in order is an

6 intercepted telephone conversation dated 1st of June, 1992, between

7 Mr. Mandic and Colonel Vasinovic [phoen]. That is a document that was

8 specifically disclosed, as I understand it, on the 15th of November.

9 THE REGISTRAR: P446. The audio will be P446 and the transcript,

10 P446A.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that they do not have this

12 intercept among the intercepts given us today.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm going to --

15 JUDGE ORIE: The interpreters inform us that they haven't got a

16 copy of the -- this intercept.

17 MR. TIEGER: That's fine. Let's move on, in the interests of

18 time. Can we turn next, then, to --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

20 MR. TIEGER: Can we turn next, then, and mark as the -- perhaps --

21 let me withdraw the previous exhibit. Mark this next exhibit as P446,

22 Minutes of a session of the government held on 14 July 1992. And that's

23 an ERN of ET 012454 -- I'm sorry. What looks like P446 is still going to

24 wait because this was P64A, binder 13, tab 179. I actually have that

25 listed, if it's helpful for the registry as P64A P65 binder 13, tab 179.

Page 8934

1 Q. Mr. Mandic, the document bearing the --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone.


4 Q. It's the document that bears that lengthy number that I, recited

5 but that is the minutes of July 14th, 1992, the 39th session of the

6 government. Again, that indicates that the session was chaired by

7 Professor Djeric, the prime minister, and again, for the benefit of the

8 Court, counsel, and yourself, I note that before the agenda begins, the

9 minutes reflect the absence of three persons, including yourself.

10 Mr. Mandic, can I direct your attention, then, to the last

11 paragraph of the document, before the signatures of the government,

12 secretary, and Professor Djeric. That last paragraph reads: "It was

13 concluded that Ministry of Justice and administration at its first session

14 is to inform the government on the work of the commission for the exchange

15 of prisoners and to propose personnel solutions providing the normal

16 working conditions of this commission."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And do you recall whether the Ministry of Justice and

19 administration, whether your ministry did propose certain personnel

20 solutions, and if so, what they were?

21 A. As far as I can remember, instead of Rajko Colovic, there was

22 Rajkovac. I don't know his first name. I think he worked in the Ilidza

23 municipality. He was to become chairman of the State Commission for the

24 Exchange of POWs.

25 Q. Just to refresh your memory, if it's my recollection is that we

Page 8935

1 looked last week at a document of July 4th, I believe, some point early in

2 July, reflecting the appointment of Mr. Vanovac as the president of the

3 Exchange Commission.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that would have preceded the meeting or the session of the

6 government held on 14 July 1992, although it indicates that you were not

7 present at that session. Do you know whether or not the --

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. -- last paragraph we looked at was a reflection that the

10 government was -- had not yet been formally apprised of Mr. Vanovac's

11 appointment or whether there were some other personnel issues of concern

12 with respect to the functioning of the commission?

13 A. I wasn't present at that session; however, Nenad Radovic, my

14 deputy, was there, and I think the government wanted to recruit

15 responsible and professional people who would compile centralised lists at

16 the level of regions, municipalities, and Republika Srpska, in order for

17 it to function better in the future. I think that the point here was to

18 reinforce this interim of personnel, and that is the State Commission of

19 Republika Srpska. The appointment of Mr. Vanovac was not disputed, but

20 the personnel reinforcement is emphasised here, as you can read from this

21 condition. The government was not satisfied up to that time how the

22 commission had been functioning.

23 Q. Mr. Mandic, can I then direct your attention to Prosecution's next

24 in order. That's a document that bears the ERN 0190-4814.

25 JUDGE ORIE: While this document is distributed, Mr. Tieger, I

Page 8936

1 just draw your attention to the fact that at least in the translation,

2 it's not Djeric, but Beric [phoen], who presided over the last meeting.

3 But that might be a technical problem rather than anything else. I'm now

4 looking at the English translation.

5 MR. TIEGER: I suspect we can agree at this moment that that's a

6 technical problem.

7 MR. STEWART: We've made that correction. I don't believe there

8 can be any issue about it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: It's clear.

10 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be P446. The audio will be

11 P446, and the transcript, P446A.


13 Q. Mr. Mandic, I'm going to give you a moment to look that document

14 over. It's a transcript of a television interview with Mrs. Plavsic?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a B/C/S version, Mr. Tieger?

16 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour. I'm advised there isn't. I

17 think, then, we can proceed in one of two ways, and let me see which would

18 be the most expedient. I think we should move on to play 446A.

19 JUDGE ORIE: You can play 446, but we can't play the transcript.

20 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry. I've got a backwards. Thank you,

21 Your Honour. For the benefit of the booth, I think they need to

22 specifically know that this is a Sanction document and they need to hear

23 it verbally.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then first listen to 446.

25 MR. STEWART: Could we know the date, please.

Page 8937

1 MR. TIEGER: This is a document which is contextually dated

2 approximately the latter part of July, or the middle of July. That's

3 about -- as I say, it's a document contextually dated, so it doesn't have

4 a precise date in July. But I would say middle of July.

5 MR. STEWART: 1992, we assume.

6 MR. TIEGER: Yes, in 1992.

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters inquire: Do we have to read this

8 document as it is played?


10 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Every day, new camps are being opened

11 for Serbs. At the same time, the Muslim side is attempting to accuse the

12 Serbs of this. One of the greatest crimes against humanity. Recently a

13 document was presented claiming that the Serbs have 57 camps for Muslims

14 on their territory. Professor Plavsic was recently informed about these

15 assertions at a recent meeting with top-ranking UNPROFOR representatives.

16 Can you tell us how much of that is true.

17 Plavsic: I heard about the 57 camps from -- I think I concluded

18 that on the basis of a statement by Mr. Izetbegovic, which was frequently

19 commented on in the mass media, and I really became interested in which

20 camps they were. Naturally, since I cannot communicate with them, I

21 requested UNPROFOR to convey us the names of the concentration camps from

22 the Muslim authorities. Relying on the fact that there really are no

23 concentration camps on our territory, when I made the request, I

24 immediately said that if a single concentration camp exists in our

25 territory, I'm prepared to go and visit those concentration camps at once

Page 8938

1 with UNPROFOR representatives. They were really very quick in their

2 activity and, after two days, I obtained a list of concentration --

3 alleged concentration camps in territory controlled by the Serbian

4 authorities. This was done by Mr. Magnusson, who was in charge of

5 civilian questions for UNPROFOR and we obtained a list not of 57 camps but

6 of 42. Of these 42 alleged concentration camps, nine locations were cited

7 which bear no relation to Serbian territory in BH, but are related

8 to ... the nine sites are located in other states. When I say "other

9 states," they cited places in Serbia and Montenegro. Of course, we did

10 not take these sites into consideration at all and we very quickly asked

11 the official organs of the MUP of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina to comment on the list. This is the information we got. On

13 this list, which cites 42 alleged concentration camps, there should be a

14 total of 58.810 detainees. After the list was analysed by MUP, it turned

15 out that there were 8.251 persons in the said locations.

16 Therefore, the difference is considerable, from 58.810, whereas

17 there actually were 8.251 persons.

18 Further analysis showed that these were not concentration camps at

19 all, but regular prisons, and it is completely normal that prisons exist

20 in peacetime, but especially in wartime. I could comment on each

21 individually, because we have information for each individual prison. But

22 I want to go back to these numbers. The great disparity between them, and

23 just cite some examples.

24 For example, the prison at Pale is mentioned with 2.500 inmates,

25 whereas there are actually only 44. Or, for example, the Ilidza SUP, 150

Page 8939

1 inmates, whereas there are only 4. Or, for example, the sports hall in

2 Hadzici, 2.500, whereas there are only nine prisons. Only one assertion

3 related to the Prijedor sports centre approximates ... in their report,

4 according to their analysis, there should be 2.600 prisoners. Here in

5 Prijedor, there are actually 3.000 prisoners, and the location is Omarska.

6 And those in detention are people who were sentenced by a judge,

7 in accordance with the law and by regular procedure, to detention for a

8 certain period of time. In this, in addition to this, it is precisely in

9 this area, Prijedor and Banja Luka, that able-bodied men are located who

10 are being divided into three categories. One category includes those who

11 actively participated in rebellions. The second, those who assisted. And

12 the third, those who financed the purchase of weapons.

13 This is a more substantial number from this entire list.

14 Otherwise, really there is no question of concentration camps. Naturally,

15 I then informed Mr. Magnusson of the results of the research conducted by

16 the MUP on the basis of the report we received from the Muslim and

17 Croatian side, and I told him that whenever he wanted a commission, any

18 commission, be it of the International Red Cross or the UNHCR, could visit

19 those camps. I would be prepared to go and see whether they were

20 concentration camps or prisons.

21 MG: It's obvious that these allegations about the existence of 57

22 concentration camps for the Muslims on the Serbian side are merely an

23 attempt at deception and to use untruths for propaganda purposes. On the

24 other hand, Serbs are actually being imprisoned in concentration camps,

25 which are predominantly run by the Muslims and about which numerous

Page 8940

1 indications exist.

2 Plavsic: As opposed to this rigged information, we have only

3 partial information. But we do have the first and last names of the

4 persons located in actual concentration camps. In this collection centres

5 where they are in impossible conditions, there are able-bodied men, a

6 large number of women, and in Bradina, for example, about 500 children.

7 We have their first and last names. And you can see on the list here the

8 names of the women are underlined and the years of birth, from 1977 and

9 on, have been designated on the side. This is the period of childhood,

10 and it can be seen that there are children in concentration camps. We

11 have particularly had the opportunity to speak with some witnesses who

12 have succeeded in fleeing these torture chambers. We have especially had

13 the opportunity to familiarise ourselves thoroughly with the conditions

14 prevailing in the Tarcin silo. We had - how shall I put it? - the good

15 fortune in this tragedy to bring these witnesses to UNPROFOR members, and

16 they testified orally there.

17 MG: In addition, numerous concentration camps exist in Sarajevo.

18 Plavsic: Yes, in Sarajevo itself. As regards Sarajevo, we have a

19 list of prisons where the Serbian population is exposed to terrible abuse.

20 People are taken away from their flats, and there is a method whereby they

21 are returned to their flat, only to be taken away again after a certain

22 time. Serbs in Sarajevo are hostages, both in their homes and in prisons.

23 The prisons are the physical education centre in JNA Street number 3, the

24 central prison, the Vladimir Nazor school for mentally handicapped

25 children. That school, I'm told, is located in Hrasno, and they all refer

Page 8941

1 to it as private prison of that soccer player, Edin Bahtic, where people

2 are tortured in the most brutal way. They then throw them -- since the

3 Miljacka river is nearby, they throw the dead bodies into the Miljacka.

4 Then the basement vault of the Sarajevo commercial bank in Jovana Cvijica

5 Street. They say that some man named Zlatko Lagumdzija is in charge of

6 that prison. I want to say right away that this does not pertain to the

7 politician, Zlatko Lagumdzija. Then the Viktor Bubanj barracks in

8 Svrakino Selo and the Kosevo stadium linked to Zetra. They say that there

9 are around 500 Serbs there. Of course the figure varies from day to day.

10 Then the Velesic tunnel and brickyard. The Mladen Stojanovic student

11 dormitories in Radiceva Street; Sipad, in Djemala Bijedica Street the

12 garage by the Sarajevo commercial bank in Dobrinja, the nuclear shelter in

13 Dobrinja 3; the prison at Stup, we do not know the facility, the tunnel of

14 Kosevo hospital, the Stella cafe; the Alipasino Polje heating plan, the

15 Aleksa Santic school; the Famos stadium in Hrasnica; the correctional

16 institution in Pofalici by the tobacco factory; the Meteorological

17 Institute on Bijelasnica, the police station at Bijelave, the Pavel

18 Goranin elementary school.

19 As we can see, 21 prisons have been cited here and that is all

20 being checked in Sarajevo itself, which vastly outnumbers the number of

21 prisons located on the entire territory controlled by the Serbian

22 authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina."

23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, does the Court wish me to proceed at

24 this time or --

25 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know how many questions you would have. If

Page 8942

1 these were just a small number, then perhaps the witness has the video

2 still clearly in his mind. If not, then we'll have a break now.

3 MR. TIEGER: Well, I think we'll exhaust the Court's patience as

4 we go through this. I can begin and we can -- let me try to deal with one

5 aspect.

6 JUDGE ORIE: No. If you can't -- yes.


8 Q. Mr. Mandic, in the latter portion of the video, Mrs. Plavsic

9 addresses her attention to allegations of -- concerning Serbs held on the

10 Muslim side. Were you aware of these allegations in the middle or latter

11 part of July 1992; that is, that Serbs were being held by Muslims in

12 Muslim-held territory?

13 A. No. I think that both pieces of information fall into the

14 category of war propaganda. In my opinion, it is not true that the

15 Muslims have as many camps and vice versa that Serbs had as many camps. I

16 think it was just a propaganda war. There were rumours, which are only to

17 be expected during the war, that somebody was holding a private prison,

18 and that referred to the both sides. I'm quite sure that this camp in

19 Tarcin, the so-called silo, did exist, and people were held there until

20 the end of the war. I talked to some of these people. As for the

21 remaining ones, I had no information about that. It was up to the MUP and

22 the national security to investigate this matter, and Biljana Plavsic was

23 charged on behalf of the Presidency to deal with this aspect of

24 relationships between the warring parties. She had information. She

25 communicated with international community, with UNPROFOR, and with the

Page 8943

1 Muslim side as well.

2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm satisfied that if we continue after

3 the break, that I'll either be able to direct the witness's attention with

4 a short interpretations or in any event we won't have any problem with

5 recollection of the document.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then have a break until 11.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

8 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness and

10 Mr. Tomic into the courtroom.

11 [Witness's counsel entered court]

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Mandic. The same for you,

14 Mr. Tomic.

15 You may continue, Mr. Tieger.

16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Mandic, can we turn our attention next to a document that came

18 from the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina Ministry of the Interior,

19 marked strictly confidential, a report on some aspects of the work done to

20 date and the tasks ahead, dated 17 July 1992 and bearing the ERN

21 0306-2180.



24 Q. Mr. Mandic, I note on the first page of the document there is a

25 handwritten notation below the typed "strictly confidential, copy number

Page 8944

1 6," and 6 is handwritten, indicating to president of the Presidency and

2 prime minister.

3 Based on your experience, was a document such as this sent to the

4 president of the Presidency and the prime minister as individuals or in

5 their capacities as head of those bodies?

6 A. In the capacity of the president of the Presidency and in the

7 capacity of the prime minister.

8 Q. As the leaders of those particular bodies; would that be fair?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. If I could direct your attention, then, to page 3 of the B/C/S

11 version and also the top of page 3 of the English version, which states as

12 follows: "The army, crisis staffs, and war presidencies have requested

13 that the army round up or capture as many Muslim civilians as possible.

14 And they leave such undefined camps to internal affairs organs. The

15 conditions in some of these camps are poor. There is no food. Individuals

16 sometimes do not observe international norms, et cetera."

17 Mr. Mandic, you spoke earlier about irregularities and inhumane

18 treatment in camps. Does this document sent by the Ministry of Interior

19 to the president of the Presidency and the prime minister on July 17th

20 reflect, generally, the kind of information available to the government to

21 which you were referring earlier?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Further down in the page, indeed toward the bottom of your page 3

24 and in the middle of the page 3 in the English, the document

25 indicates: "It should also be noted that new territories are being

Page 8945

1 liberated in combat activities and that even some Serbs are committing

2 crimes, mainly all types of looting, in addition to the crimes committed

3 by the enemy. Looting, as the most serious crime against property, mostly

4 occurs during -" and the B/C/S word is "ciscenje", translated in the

5 English as "mopping up," - "operations on which occasions paramilitary

6 formations, military formations, and police engage in looting."

7 Let me ask you this, then: What was the -- let me ask you: In

8 what manner were new territories being liberated, if you know, at the time

9 this document was prepared in the middle of July 1992?

10 A. As far as I knew, these were combat operations carried on by the

11 army, police, and these crisis staffs. I was not very much familiar with

12 that. I suppose these were combat operations and ethnic cleansing of the

13 non-Serb population in some areas.

14 Q. And if I could ask you to direct your attention next to page 6 of

15 the English translation. And I'm afraid I'm not in a position to direct

16 you specifically to the portion of the B/C/S where that is found, but let

17 me begin by reading the first few words of that paragraph so that you can

18 find it: "With a view to resolving existing problems and outstanding

19 issues with the justice ministry." Can you find that paragraph,

20 Mr. Mandic?

21 MR. STEWART: The middle of page 10. It's the middle paragraph on

22 page 10.


24 Q. That paragraph states: "With a view to resolving existing

25 problems and outstanding issues with the justice ministry, it is also

Page 8946

1 necessary to hold a joint meeting in order to address the problems of

2 cooperation between the MUP and judicial organs in preventing crime and

3 the shortage of judges for criminal cases, to reach an agreement on

4 initiating proceedings for changing the duration of pre-trial detention

5 (the Presidency should uphold the provision according to which detention

6 can last up to 31 days) [as interpreted] and to resolve more quickly the

7 issue of investigating judges, investigating centres, prisons, and

8 especially round-up centres and the related issue of jurisdiction, so that

9 the MUP in compliance with the ZKP, Law on Criminal Procedure, and the law

10 on internal affairs can deal with individuals only until their trial or

11 hand-over to judicial organs, which are products of the MUP's activity.

12 Special emphasis should be placed on the issue of relocating certain

13 citizens, villages, et cetera, because this does not fall within the

14 competence of the MUP, although efforts are being made to link it to the

15 MUP."

16 Mr. Mandic, do you know the -- were you familiar with the problems

17 to which this document refers in that paragraph?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And does the document accurately state those problems or are there

20 aspects that need clarification?

21 A. During the war, especially in the war-struck areas, there were

22 frequent incursions by paramilitary units or civilians who looted the

23 property of persons affected by the war and took the stolen property back

24 home. These were thefts and all the other aggravated crimes against

25 property. The MUP were involved in combat operations was unable to

Page 8947

1 prevent this and a way had to be found to prevent such practices that are

2 contrary to the combat operations, be it the mopping up of the areas

3 populated by the non-Serbian population or the areas where the non-Serb

4 population was forced to leave their homes because of the war, and to

5 protect the property left behind them. These were people who were

6 basically criminals and committed criminal offences against property,

7 looting and all the other criminal offences that accompany a war

8 situation.

9 Q. The document refers to possibility of reaching an agreement on

10 initiating proceedings for changing the duration of pre-trial detention.

11 Does that refer to the detention of looters or to the detention of

12 non-Serbs?

13 A. As far as I can glean from this, I think it refers to the looters

14 of the property of non-Serbs. The people who came as members of the

15 paramilitary units and committed looting in order to provide for a legal

16 framework that would protect the property left behind in the areas and

17 settlements where people, either during the war -- either because of the

18 war operations or because of ethnic cleansing, abandoned their homes. I

19 think that the minister here wanted this practice to be put in place in

20 order to prevent the looting of the property belonging to the civilian

21 population, that is, the population in general.

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the figure in the translation which is

23 31 days, Ms. Cmeric assures me it's actually 21 in the original. There's

24 just a -- some sort of typo or error there. It's right in the middle of

25 that paragraph.

Page 8948

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that.

2 MR. STEWART: It should be 21.


4 Q. Which ministry would have had jurisdiction, or which ministry or

5 other body would have had jurisdiction over looters.

6 A. Before the criminal proceedings are instituted, the MUP is in

7 charge of detaining people in custody up to 30 days. Later on, it is up

8 to the civil justice administration. If these are criminal offences

9 against property, if it has to do with all those criminal offences that

10 have nothing to do with war crimes. So it's the MUP and the civil branch

11 of -- the civilian branch of the judiciary.

12 Q. And do you know where in the law of Republika Srpska the 30-day

13 period for detaining people by the MUP is embodied, or when it was

14 enacted?

15 A. I believe it is -- it was contained in the Law on Criminal

16 Procedure, under the chapter of the responsibilities vested with the

17 Ministry of the Interior. The MUP was the one that could order a 30-day

18 period of custody.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm a bit confused now. 31 days have

20 been changed in 21 days and now we're back at 30.

21 MR. TIEGER: I think the Court is drawing our attention,

22 Mr. Mandic, to the portion of the document which states that the

23 Presidency should uphold the provision according to which detention can

24 last up to what we are now advised is 21 days in the text.

25 Q. And you have mentioned that the MUP had jurisdiction to hold

Page 8949

1 people for 30 days if they so deemed. Can you reconcile that for us?

2 A. I was talking of the Law on Criminal Procedure from before the

3 war. I am not familiar with this particular document where the War

4 Presidency, that is, the Presidency of Republika Srpska, was able to pass

5 decisions with the force of a law in order to set the period of detention,

6 whether prolong it or shorten it. I'm not aware of the provision

7 regulating the period of detention that was legally allowed at the time.

8 There was a different criminal procedure in place for military personnel,

9 and of course a different criminal procedure for civilians. I'm not

10 familiar with the figures, and I might have made a mistake when I was

11 mentioning the number of days.

12 Q. And how would the Ministry of Justice be advised by the Ministry

13 of the Interior that jurisdiction over detained persons had now fallen to

14 the Ministry of Justice, in other words, that a particular period of time

15 had elapsed and the jurisdiction now fell to the Ministry of Justice?

16 A. Mr. Prosecutor, as is the case in all the countries where there is

17 rule of law, you have basic courts and high courts. So this is within the

18 jurisdiction of the courts, basic courts, and not within the jurisdiction

19 of the ministry. If something takes place that falls under the

20 jurisdiction of the civilian judiciary, of course, the pre-trial stage is

21 within the competence of the MUP, that is the given public security

22 station, they would inform the investigating judge, the investigative

23 procedures would have their course, and if there is reason to believe that

24 a serious crime was committed and if this perpetrator has a tendency to

25 recurring criminal offences, then this will be given to the jurisdiction

Page 8950

1 of the investigating judge of a competent court in that period. I know

2 that for those crimes where sentences exceeding ten years would be

3 provided for, the jurisdiction would lie with the basic courts, whereas

4 for the sentences exceeding ten years of prison, district courts would

5 have the jurisdiction.

6 So these are -- what we are talking about here are crimes within

7 the civilian sector.

8 Q. And you referred to the reference to the investigating judge.

9 Before the case was referred to an investigating judge, how long could

10 someone be held in detention by the MUP?

11 A. I'm not certain whether it was up to 30 days or up to 21 days, as

12 it says here in the document. But the MUP had the obligation to inform

13 the investigating judge of an on-site investigation that was being carried

14 out or of a crime. And the MUP had the obligation to inform the duty

15 investigating judge the moment they learnt of the crime having been

16 committed, and the investigating judge would immediately carry out an

17 on-site investigation himself or would actually task the MUP employees to

18 do that in his stead. Once the file is complete, it is forwarded to the

19 investigating judge for some further administrative actions to be taken,

20 and then it's forwarded to the prosecutor's office for an indictment to be

21 issued. This was a procedure that was valid both before the war and

22 during the war, that is, after the war, the one that we took over in

23 Republika Srpska.

24 Q. Did you meet with Mr. Stanisic or any other representative of the

25 Ministry of the Interior in an effort to resolve the existing problems and

Page 8951

1 outstanding issues referred to in the document?

2 A. We would meet quite often, both the two of us, both at the

3 meetings of the government, where we discussed all these issues, including

4 the criminality, the crimes that were on the increase in the war-struck

5 areas.

6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could we be clear, there, whether --

7 I'm not sure, but I believe that a little while ago the witness indicated

8 he hadn't had an opportunity or perhaps not a recent opportunity to read

9 this whole document. If Mr. Tieger's question there about meeting to

10 resolve the existing problems and outstanding issues referred to in the

11 document relate to the passages which have been put to the witness then

12 there's no problem. If it's intended to extend more widely, then the

13 witness should have an opportunity, if he needs it, of considering the

14 entire document.

15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I think that's fair, and my question was

16 only directed to those issues and problems that were contained in the

17 portion of the document we discussed.

18 MR. STEWART: Thank you. That's clear, then, Your Honour. Thank

19 you.


21 Q. How long had you known Mr. Stanisic, Mr. Mandic?

22 A. I had known him for a long time. We studied together at the

23 police academy and graduated at the same time.

24 Q. And were you -- did you engage in sports? I know you were a

25 well-known sportsman. Did you -- were you and Mr. Stanisic involved in

Page 8952

1 sporting activities together?

2 A. Yes, we did. We were engaged in judo, and I don't want to sound

3 immodest, but I was among the top sportsmen, whereas he was among the best

4 at the republic level. So I won the European medals, the Balkan

5 championships medals, and other regional medals, whereas he reached only

6 the level of being the champion in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

7 Q. And were you and Mr. Stanisic friends from before the war?

8 A. Yes, we were.

9 Q. Do you recall when you first began exchanging information with

10 Mr. Stanisic about the problems that are reflected in the portions of the

11 document we looked at?

12 A. No, I don't. But if I may try and clarify something,

13 Mr. Prosecutor. These problems were constant and permanently present and

14 we constantly discussed them at the government sessions and in our

15 one-on-one meetings, and we tried to solve this problem of lawlessness

16 that accompanied the beginning of the war. Since the whole of

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina was criss-crossed and engulfed by the war operations,

18 it was very difficult for the civilian judiciary and the civilian

19 authorities in the government to exercise their powers on the ground.

20 Q. You've referred to the problem of looting in connection with that

21 portion of the document which we've looked at on English page 6 and B/C/S

22 page 10, and we've previously looked at that portion of the document on

23 page 3 which discusses the round-up or capture of as many Muslim civilians

24 as possible. In the course of your discussions with Mr. Stanisic, did the

25 two of you focus on one of those problems more than the other? Did you

Page 8953

1 consider one of those problems more significant than the other?

2 A. At the beginning, we had tremendous problems with these war

3 presidencies. Those were civilians who organised the authority, the army,

4 the paramilitary, and the reserve forces in individual municipalities in

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And if you look at page 3 of the B/C/S version, it

6 says that the army and Crisis Staff, or rather, war presidencies request

7 that as many Muslims should be captured as possible, which is totally

8 inappropriate and contrary to all international conventions. That was one

9 of the most serious problems for the civilian authorities to function

10 properly in Republika Srpska. And the consequence of all that was looting

11 of property and everything else that those people left behind without any

12 protection. The paramilitary forces, civilians, and everyone else who --

13 criminals who were involved in all this, the old and the new criminals,

14 took the advantage of this war and this misfortune to loot other people's

15 property.

16 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask for one clarification of this last

17 answer. You've drawn our attention to that specific portion of this

18 document which reads: "The army, crisis staffs, and war presidencies..."

19 Do you agree that reading this document would say that it was not just the

20 locals, to say it that way, crisis staffs, War Presidency, but the army as

21 well, which had requested that the army, that is, themselves, round up or

22 capture as many Muslim civilians as possible? Your answer in the totality

23 of your last answer suggests that it was only the local -- these were only

24 the local people who were asked this, but I clearly see the army mentioned

25 as well, which is not a local organisation, as far as I understand.

Page 8954

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Crisis Staff, or

2 rather, the war presidencies that were composed of civilians in authority

3 requests the military and the armed forces to have as many Muslims as

4 possible ethnically cleansed. It was not the army that requested that but

5 the army was requested to do that. I don't think that this is a properly

6 composed sentence on page 3 of the translation. Sorry, of the B/C/S

7 version.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but in the original, I see the first word beings

9 "vojska," isn't it? That's the usual reference to the army?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These two things excluded each

11 other. It cannot be that the army asked the army to round up as many

12 people. So this is a poorly phrased sentence. You either ask the army to

13 do it or vice versa. You cannot have it both ways. Because the hierarchy

14 and the place of the army in the hierarchy is well-known. That's how I

15 understand it.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Theoretically that may be right, but is it

17 unimaginable that the army, crisis staffs, and war presidencies take the

18 same view and request that the army round up or capture as many Muslim

19 civilians as possible? A shared opinion on what the army should do?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what should be

21 understood by reading this document.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


25 Q. On page 10 of your version and page 6 of the English, Ministry of

Page 8955

1 Interior also expresses concern about the issue of relocating certain

2 citizens, villages, et cetera, because although that does not fall within

3 the competence of the MUP, efforts were being made to link it to the MUP.

4 Did you and Mr. Stanisic talk about this concern?

5 A. No, we didn't. I think that was the conflict of jurisdictions

6 between the military and the police.

7 Q. And in what way did the concern over the relocation of citizens

8 and villages relate to the detention of persons, either -- well,

9 non-Serbs, referred to in the other portions of the document we reviewed?

10 A. The army set up collection centres, as did the police, and the

11 people from war-torn areas were brought there, and they were either

12 exchanged or ethnic cleansing was conducted where there were no war

13 operations, whereas from other locations, in my view, the population was

14 removed from the war operation zones. In all war operations, the police

15 was subordinated to the army, and the army was superior to the police.

16 That is what is known as the state of immediate peril of war.

17 Q. Can I direct your attention to the second paragraph of page 4 in

18 the English version, and I believe the second paragraph of page 5 of the

19 B/C/S, the last sentence of both paragraphs. That states, after

20 describing some of the activities of the MUP forces, including

21 organisation into wartime units, states: "In other words, cooperation was

22 immediately achieved with other parts of the Serb defence forces, that is,

23 with the army."

24 Was the MUP cooperating with the army in combat operations and

25 other activities related to events in the field?

Page 8956

1 A. Yes, it was.

2 MR. TIEGER: Can we turn next to a document dated July 20th, 1992,

3 from the security service centre of Banja Luka, and directed to the MUP of

4 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina for the minister, the ERN is ET

5 0324-6719.



8 Q. Mr. Mandic, that document is signed by the head of the security

9 services centre in Banja Luka, Mr. Stojan Zupljanin, and it begins by

10 indicating that during the months of April, May, June, and July of 1992,

11 in the autonomous region of Krajina, there were armed conflicts, and

12 stating that: "We have informed you about the progress and the results of

13 those conflicts on a regular basis."

14 And then in the second paragraph of the document it goes on to

15 note: "However, during these conflicts, representatives of army of

16 Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and police arrested a great

17 number of citizens of Muslim and Croat nationality who were, depending on

18 the number and the circumstances in the field, sent to various buildings,

19 like schools, centres, factory facilities, open-area (playgrounds) and so

20 on. According to our information, this situation involves several

21 thousands of mostly military age men. They were subject to operational

22 procedure by military service, service for national and public security,

23 which then carried out selection of the person detained. After the

24 operational procedure, three categories were determined. First and second

25 category of are security interest to us, and their activity can be

Page 8957

1 classified as legal responsibility (active participants in enemy

2 formations during the armed conflicts, illegal suppliers and financiers of

3 arming of Muslim and Croatian people, secret and organised preparation of

4 armed rebellion and elimination of Serbian individuals and so on. While

5 the third category is made of adult men on which, so far, the service

6 doesn't have any information of security interest for us so they can be

7 treated as hostages."

8 And then on the next page, the second page of the English

9 translation and the third page of the B/C/S document that you have before

10 you, Mr. Zupljanin goes on to describe the positions that he believes

11 should be adopted, including the exchange of military-aged men of no

12 security interest who can be treated only as hostages. That's contained

13 in item number 3. "Try to exchange military age men of no security

14 interest to us, who can be treat only as hostages, for citizens of Serbian

15 nationality who have been detained in camps held by Muslim-Croatian

16 forces, according to the same criteria."

17 Now, in a document we previously looked at, that is, the video of

18 Mrs. Plavsic, she refers to the categorisation of men. Here we see the

19 categorisation of non-Serbs of no security -- who have been detained and

20 who are of no security interest. Was that a problem that you and

21 Mr. Stanisic discussed during the course of your discussions about issues

22 that needed to be addressed?

23 A. Mr. Stanisic and I discussed the problems of crime, theft of

24 property and destruction of property that had been abandoned either

25 forcibly or voluntarily. As for these matters concerning the relationship

Page 8958

1 between the army and the police, I don't remember that we ever discussed

2 this topic. These are, after all, the things that were under the

3 jurisdiction of the army and the police respectively. You can probably

4 ask me, as an experienced policeman, what my opinion was or is, but it is

5 obvious that this pertains to the relationship between the military and

6 the police or the MUP.

7 Q. But does the categorisation of persons taken into custody and held

8 in detention refer to the investigative processes that were conducted by

9 the MUP before an investigative judge referral to the Ministry of Justice?

10 A. No. In the Law on Criminal Procedure, there is no age category of

11 people. It just speaks about the category of crime and the seriousness of

12 crime committed. Here we have captured persons who were kept in isolation

13 in school buildings and other buildings where they were kept by the

14 police, and this is where the conflict occurred between the military and

15 the police, and apparently our centre was requested to determine whether

16 the police or the military were to safeguard these camps, and they even

17 activated the reserve and retired policemen for that purpose.

18 Q. Earlier in your testimony, on the 25th of November, on page 42,

19 you told us that the entire government, led by Mr. Djeric, requested that

20 people not be detained, that civilians not be detained or deprived of

21 liberty who had been incorporated into the war.

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. And was he referring to the civilians who are - non-Serb

24 civilians - who are indicated in Mr. Zupljanin's letter of July 20th and

25 in the previous report we saw from the Ministry of the Interior on the

Page 8959

1 17th of July?

2 A. Yes, I think that's the case, yes.

3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, can we turn next to the minutes of the

4 36th session of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina government held on

5 4 July 1992. That bears an ERN of ET 0124-5416.


7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, before you proceed, this last document

8 you gave to us even has page 3 out of 2, which is, I do know that the

9 Prosecution now and then does the -- or tries to do what's very difficult.

10 I just wanted to draw your attention that these can create at other

11 moments more confusion, as it does now. Please proceed.


13 Q. Mr. Mandic, in this session conducted on the 4th of July, 1992,

14 again the chairman was Professor Djeric, the prime minister, the document

15 begins by noting who was present and who was absent, and I note that it

16 indicates that absent from the session with a reason were a number of

17 persons, including yourself.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can I ask you to turn, Mr. Mandic, who agenda item number 8. That

20 is the last agenda item of the session. And it states as follows: "The

21 question has been raised whether there are agreed criteria regarding the

22 moving out of the Muslims' population from the territory of the Serb

23 Republic of BH. It has been concluded that the government has not until

24 now had a point of view on this matter. The Ministry of the Interior is

25 entrusted with preparing information on this issue that the government

Page 8960

1 would consider and take the appropriate standpoint."

2 First of all, Mr. Mandic, was this one of the responses by the

3 government, or reactions by the government, to information of the type

4 we've just been looking at reflected in the July 20th, 1992 document, or

5 July 17th, 1992 document?

6 A. Yes, it was.

7 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Your Honour. If I could just have a moment.

8 [Prosecution counsel confer]

9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, Prosecution's next in order is a

10 document --

11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please for the counsel.

12 MR. TIEGER: Sorry. Thank you. My apologies. Prosecution's next

13 in order is a document dated 8 August 1992, bearing the heading "Serb

14 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Ministry of the Interior, Sarajevo."

15 And bearing the ERN ET 0124-5167.



18 Q. Now, Mr. Mandic, P450, dated August 8th, 1992, is signed by the

19 deputy minister for police affairs and tasks, Tomo Kovac.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. With respect to the date, August 8th, 1992, do you recall that on

22 August 5th, 1992, reporters gained access to the Omarska camp in Prijedor

23 and publicised details of their visit in the international press?

24 A. No, Mr. Prosecutor, I am not aware of that.

25 Q. Do you recall generally an international outcry about non-Serb

Page 8961

1 civilians -- about allegations that non-Serb civilians were being held in

2 Serb detention facilities around that time, that is, early August 1992?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 Q. Now, if I could direct your attention to the first paragraph of

5 Mr. Kovac's document. That states: "With the aim to resolve problems

6 arising from the detention of other peoples -- nations in certain

7 facilities and collection centres in the zones of war activities, apart

8 from the measures already taken by the government and its authorised

9 ministries, I propose the following: That the status of these people be

10 legally changed in compliance with international conventions on refugees,

11 prisoners of war, et cetera."

12 And then if you'll look at the following paragraphs of the

13 document, Mr. Kovac discusses the involvement of members of the MUP in

14 capturing or arranging for the accommodation of captured persons, and he

15 also discusses problems, as he sees it, in categorisation.

16 Does the concern expressed by Mr. Kovac reflect a more general

17 intensified concern about the detention of non-Serbs and their treatment

18 after the international outcry following the disclosures about the camps

19 in Prijedor?

20 A. I don't believe that was really the case. Let me tell you,

21 Mr. Prosecutor: It is not usual for an assistant to the minister to

22 address directly the president of the Serbian Republic and the prime

23 minister of the Serbian Republic. It seems to me that this was a

24 responsibility that was to be assumed in relation to the previous period.

25 Under the law governing the MUP, Tomo Kovac was not allowed to address a

Page 8962

1 letter either to the president of the Republic or the prime minister. He

2 could have contacted only his minister, who would then be the most

3 appropriate person to submit such a material expressing his grave concern

4 to other competent institutions. So it seems to me that there are other

5 matters at work here. This is not a legal way of communicating by an

6 assistant to the minister who is maybe the fourth or fifth person down the

7 hierarchy in the MUP, and with the president and the prime minister being

8 the end receivers of the communication. That's why I think that there are

9 other things at work here. Under the law on internal affairs, no one can

10 address without the approval of the minister the higher-level institutions

11 in government.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, may I ask for a clarification of this

13 answer, unless you'd further ask for that.

14 MR. TIEGER: No. Please, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You say this is not what was proper in the structure.

16 Nevertheless, we see a document which does so. Then you say --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- you're suggesting that there must be something

19 else. First of all, do you consider what's written in this letter to be

20 not correct? I'm not talking about the formal procedure, but I'm talking

21 just about the content of the letter.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not suspect that what has been

23 mentioned here is not true, that there were practices contrary to the

24 provisions of the Geneva Conventions and other human rights instruments.

25 What seems to me here is that this concern expressed by Tomo Kovac is

Page 8963

1 quite a hypocritical one, because he was an assistant minister at the

2 time, and we are at a moment when the international community had already

3 established the situation as it was, that he is now putting himself into

4 the capacity of interpreting international human rights instruments. And

5 we've seen dozens of documents already asking for the categorisation --

6 for a proper categorisation of people. So I do have my doubts concerning

7 this being a true and sincere expression of remorse.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Does that mean that he was just as well aware before

9 the facts were established of the situation as he describes in that letter

10 and that you say it's hypocritical to draw the attention to this as

11 something improper?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: If he knew, as deputy minister for police affairs and

14 tasks, was this general knowledge on the government level?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We used to receive such information

16 on a daily basis and launch initiatives for such practices to be prevented

17 or reduced, as far as possible. And I mean the expulsion of civilians.

18 Tomo Kovac was an assistant to the ministry, Your Honour, not a deputy

19 minister. He was directly in charge of the armed forces of MUP, and as

20 such, he had direct information, knowledge, and authority to engage the

21 armed forces of MUP on the ground and to coordinate this activity with the

22 army.

23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I observe. Ms. Cmeric tells me

24 that there is a translation issue in relation to the very last words that

25 appear on this document. Perhaps I simply make that comment and reserve

Page 8964

1 that point and we'll take it up rather than discuss it in any more detail.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But if it is a translation issue, is there any

3 problem? We have to listen to the tape if we do not resolve it now.

4 MR. STEWART: All right, Your Honour. I'm just nervous. It's

5 simply this --

6 JUDGE ORIE: We could have the witness to repeat that part of his

7 question, see whether it's -- could you --

8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, with respect, that's not entirely the

9 point. Fact is if there's a translation error, there is a translation

10 error and the witness is not the person to resolve this.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No, but if we ask him to repeat his answer, we'll see

12 whether we get a different translation from we got before. I take it,

13 translation into English.

14 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, Your Honour. We will then -- all right.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Rather than drawing the attention of the witness to

16 the point you have problems with. Could you indicate in English from what

17 part -- non-contentious part you'd like him to --

18 MR. STEWART: It really starts well it's the answer that begins,

19 "We used to receive such information on a daily basis." It's that

20 answer.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you, Mr. Mandic, repeat your answer. I

22 asked whether it was general knowledge on the government level at that

23 time. And then you started saying: "We used to receive such

24 information." Could you please repeat that answer, because there seems to

25 be some problem. You said: "We used to receive such information on a

Page 8965

1 daily basis and launch ..." Could you repeat that answer.

2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me. I -- there may be some

3 ambiguity, and before we begin, I want to be make sure we resolve that. I

4 understood Ms. Cmeric through Mr. Stewart to be referring to a document

5 and not the response.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, then, yes, now I do understand.

7 MR. STEWART: Yes. I'm sorry, Your Honour. I thought I had made

8 that clear, but my apologies. Your Honour, I -- it's just this, perhaps

9 I'm being overly nervous. It's a distinction between deputy and

10 assistant. It's just that. What I'm about to say about the translation

11 is in fact consistent with what the witness has said in -- or the way the

12 translation -- interpretation came across this morning. But Ms. Cmeric

13 tells me that whereas it says "deputy minister" at the end of this

14 document in the English translation that she suggests that "assistant

15 minister" is the appropriate translation. That is It's just that that is

16 actually consistent with the answer that the witness gave in that passage.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And of course in my question I refer to the

18 translation of this document when I said "deputy minister" which was

19 corrected by the witness. It's now been clarified.

20 MR. STEWART: Yes, of course, absolutely.

21 JUDGE ORIE: It's now been clarified. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. If we could turn next to the

23 minutes of the 46th session of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina

24 government held on 9 August 1992, bearing the ERN ET 0124-5481.


Page 8966


2 Q. Mr. Mandic, as you can see, Prosecution's 451 reflects the minutes

3 of a session of the government of the Serb Republic of Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina held on 9 August 1992. And as we see in the notations

5 following the minutes, that is a session at which you were president --

6 you were present, excuse me, as is indicated in addition to the prime

7 minister, the following ministers were present, Ljubomir Zukovic, Petra

8 Markovic, Momcilo Mandic, and then it goes on to indicate others who were

9 present. And I should indicate that, although the English translation

10 says in addition to the prime minister, the following ministers were

11 present, it also indicates in the last paragraph before the agenda items

12 that in fact Mr. Djeric was absent and the session was chaired by the

13 deputy prime minister.

14 In any event, Mr. Mandic, if I could ask you to turn to agenda

15 item number 12. That items states: "The government formed two

16 commissions consisting of representatives from the Ministry of Interior

17 and Ministry of Judiciary and Administration. The commission's task is to

18 gain knowledge through responsible state organs about the status of people

19 in concentration centres and other sheltering facilities. To speed up the

20 procedure of categorising these people, establishing responsibility and

21 sanctions."

22 And does the witness still have P450 in front of him? If not,

23 could that be placed in front of him.

24 First of all, Mr. Mandic, what was the mandate or the

25 responsibility of the two commissions reflected in agenda item number 12?

Page 8967

1 A. The task of the commission was to gain knowledge through

2 responsible state organs about the status of people in concentration

3 centres and other sheltering facilities, to speed up the procedure of

4 categorising these people to establish their responsibility and sanctions.

5 Q. Now, I note that handwritten in the upper right-hand corner of

6 P450, Mr. Kovac's letter of August 8th, 1992, is a notation that says:

7 "Combine team of the police and judiciary or judicature are to inspect 1,

8 categorisation; 2, jurisdiction of organs; and 3, something illegible, and

9 sanctions."

10 First of all, you may be able to decipher the ...

11 A. To speed up the procedure.

12 Q. And those are the words that immediately precede sanctions in

13 number three of the handwritten notation on Mr. Kovac's letter?

14 A. That is right. Procedure.

15 Q. Now, is there a difference --

16 MR. STEWART: Can I say, Your Honour, we still think that's

17 incomplete. It's -- it might be best, Mr. Tieger said those are the words

18 immediately precede sanction in the handwritten notation. It might be

19 best simply to allow the witness to tell us what the whole of that

20 handwritten entry says so we've got it a hundred per cent accurate.

21 MR. TIEGER: I agree. I think that's a sound approach.



24 Q. Mr. Mandic, can you simply read the handwritten portion that

25 appears on P450, Mr. Kovac's letter. Yes. Thank you.

Page 8968

1 A. "A combined team of police and judiciary is to deal with the

2 following. Under 1, categorisation; 2, competence of organs; 3, to speed

3 up the procedure. The last word is "sanctions." Whereas there's this one

4 word that I cannot make out.

5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could we suggest what the word is?

6 Because it's --

7 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, Mr. Tieger, if there's a suggestion from

8 those who can read it. Yes.

9 MR. STEWART: We think it's "odgovornosti." How about that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, could you have a look at it and,

11 Mr. Mandic, and consider whether that would be a possible ...

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Honour.

13 Odgovornosti, responsibilities.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's not a great surprise, perhaps, in view

15 of 450.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

17 MR. TIEGER: Thank you Your Honour.

18 Q. Mr. Mandic, on -- at least on the face of the enumerated items in

19 the two documents, they appear to have considerable similarity. Can you

20 explain whether or not you detect any differences, significant

21 differences, between the items enumerated in Mr. Kovac's document and the

22 mandate of the two commissions that were formed by the government on

23 August 9th?

24 A. Evidently, the vice prime minister, Mr. Trbojevic, inserted this

25 document into the agenda and asked that this particular document be acted

Page 8969

1 upon. I believe this to be the handwriting of Mr. Trbojevic, who

2 practically copied verbatim these items here into the conclusions of the

3 government.

4 Q. And just to make the record clear, because you were holding the

5 document. When you said in your answer: "Evidently the vice prime

6 minister, Mr. Trbojevic inserted this document," by this document you

7 meant P450, Mr. Kovac's letter of August 8th? If you could just answer

8 affirmatively, Mr. Mandic, for the record.

9 A. Yes, that is correct, Your Honour.

10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I am moving on to a new area.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we had better have a break at this

12 moment.

13 Mr. Mandic, we'll have a break until a quarter to 1.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, you may escort the witness into the

17 courtroom. My attention was drawn during the break to a technical and

18 practical problems in relation to CD-ROMs, but I do understand that it has

19 been explained now, the proper procedure, and that the problem seems to be

20 resolved. That's one.

21 The second matter I'd like to raise is that I again inquired today

22 into what has happened with my specific request to have Mr. Krajisnik

23 provided with a laptop computer in the courtroom, because although I think

24 it's already two weeks ago that I signed the request and that it still has

25 not yet materialised.

Page 8970

1 MR. STEWART: First point, Your Honour is right. We think the

2 first point is resolved. Sorry. On the first point, Your Honour, we

3 believe that's resolved. We're awaiting a draft letter with my signature,

4 but since I haven't seen it, I therefore haven't signed it yet. The

5 second point, the laptop computer, it's -- I understood it was physically

6 in the building about ten days ago, so I don't know. But I'll look into

7 it, Your Honour. It's --

8 JUDGE ORIE: No. I have again drawn the attention to it.

9 Mr. Mandic, please be seated and forgive us for being so impolite

10 to continue to speak when you entered the courtroom.

11 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Mandic, I'd like next to just draw your attention to a number

14 of documents which bear your name and signature and were issued during the

15 period of time you were minister of justice. The first is a document

16 dated September 3rd, 1992, bearing the ERN 0297-7655.

17 MR. TIEGER: And Your Honour, I note that this document, which is

18 a very brief document of two sentences and bearing four names was

19 disclosed on April 15th -- excuse me. November 15th of this year. If

20 there's any issue in connection with that, we should --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It has no exhibit number yet. It would then

22 be, Madam Registrar?

23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P452.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.


Page 8971

1 Q. Mr. Mandic, P452, dated September 3rd, 1992, is directed to the

2 prison administration Vogosca, and states that the inmates listed below

3 need to be transferred to the Kula Penal and Correctional Facility for

4 further procedure. It then lists the names of four persons and indicates

5 that this should be considered a matter of urgency. And was this

6 essentially the directive to the Vogosca prison authorities to transfer

7 detainees or prisoners at Vogosca to Kula?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. What was the relationship between the Vogosca prison and the Kula

10 prison? Did they fall within the same aspect of the jurisdiction of the

11 Ministry of Justice?

12 A. I think that there was a temporary facility in Vogosca under the

13 jurisdiction of the Crisis Staff of Vogosca. I think that was the case.

14 Or the police. I cannot say exactly. I'm not sure, Mr. Prosecutor.

15 Q. And I recall you mentioned the other day that Butmir at one point

16 had been under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of the Interior and then

17 was taken over by the Ministry of Justice. Was that the same case with

18 Vogosca?

19 A. We had closed that facility in Vogosca when we took that over, and

20 up until then, I think it was controlled or run by the police. I'm not

21 sure. I cannot say exactly. I cannot remember who was in charge of

22 Vogosca, which arm of the authorities.

23 Q. Do you recall approximately how many detainees or prisoners were

24 being held in Vogosca in September -- at the beginning of September 1992?

25 A. No.

Page 8972

1 Q. The document that we're looking at, P452, refers to further

2 procedure, that is, it indicates that the inmates listed below need to be

3 transferred to Kula for further procedure. What was that further

4 procedure?

5 A. Probably for an exchange, but this is not my signature,

6 Mr. Prosecutor, on this document. But it must have been the matter of

7 exchange.

8 Q. Do you recognise who signed that document on your behalf?

9 A. I believe that that was done by Slobodan Avlijas, assistant

10 minister for prisons, who was at the same time member of the State

11 Commission set up by the government for investigating the conditions of

12 life and accommodation of prisoners in the whole area of Republika Srpska.

13 Q. Next, Mr. Mandic, can I draw your attention to a document dated

14 September 22nd, 1992, the heading is Serbian Republic of

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Ministry of Justice, penal and correctional facility

16 Butmir, and it bears an ERN of ET 0345-6338. That document, Your Honour,

17 was disclosed on the 19th of November.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be P453, I take it.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Correct.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stewart, does the late date as such cause

21 you any further -- to make any further comments?

22 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour. I don't -- I don't wish to make

23 any specific comment in relation to that particular document and that

24 particular date. It's just -- it's just part of the overall picture.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

Page 8973


2 Q. Mr. Mandic, P453 is a document directed to district prison Vogosca

3 and it bears your name and a signature. I'll ask you about that signature

4 in a moment. Well, first of all, let me ask you: Is that your signature

5 on the document?

6 A. No, it isn't. And there is no register number up there. Probably

7 it was done by an employee of the KP Dom Butmir. I never would have

8 referred to Kula by using the word "Butmir." The correctional facility of

9 Kula. And in addition to that, there was no district prison in Vogosca.

10 Q. How would you describe or characterise the facility in Vogosca?

11 A. At the beginning of the war, the Crisis Staff and the Territorial

12 Defence and the police set up in Vogosca a prison, and I think the

13 facility was called Sonja [phoen]. That was a catering facility. And in

14 the first half of the first year of the war it existed there, but when we

15 took over Kula in August, then we started closing these other facilities

16 controlled by the army and the police, because everything was transferred

17 to the authority and jurisdiction of the civilian judiciary. And as I

18 said, the penal correctional facility Butmir is not its name at all.

19 There is no register number or archive number, and this is not my

20 document.

21 Q. Do you know of other facilities or buildings or locations other

22 than Sonja that were associated with or considered part of the Vogosca

23 facility?

24 A. In the village of Svrake, there was a facility where non-Serbs

25 were detained, and in the Sonja facility in Vogosca itself. And I think

Page 8974

1 these were two facilities in the area of Vogosca where non-Serbs were

2 incarcerated when the war broke out.

3 Q. Are you familiar with a location or facility or building known as

4 Planjo's house?

5 A. Was it perhaps in the village of Svrake?

6 Q. Well, I believe so, but I think it would be inappropriate for

7 me -- I need to find out what you know about it, sir.

8 A. I knew about these two facilities in the area of Vogosca

9 municipality, so it means that that would be the other one. There were no

10 other apart from these two.

11 Q. And were you familiar with a man by the name of Branko Vlaco or

12 Vlaco?

13 A. I think that he was the chief of police in Vogosca or the

14 commander of the police when the war began.

15 Q. And do you know what role, if any, he played with respect to these

16 facilities in the Vogosca area?

17 A. I don't remember, Mr. Prosecutor.

18 Q. P453 indicates in the third and last sentence of the document:

19 "Therefore, it is necessary to send 50 war prisoners who are in good

20 health to penal and correctional facility Butmir."

21 Do you know why it would have been necessary to specify that only

22 prisoners in good health should be sent to Kula?

23 A. It has nothing to do with Kula. It has more to do with the

24 economy unit. Because when -- at the beginning of the war, the KP Kula

25 was a semi-open type of prison. This economic unit provided some work,

Page 8975

1 and there were about two hens, egg-laying hens there, 2.000 egg-laying

2 hens, and it was necessary to provide labour for these chicken coops. And

3 I remember that they had about 2.000 egg-laying hens that provided food

4 for the population and the police and the army. There was also a

5 restaurant on the premises of Kula where people could have meals. This is

6 definitely referring to this unit, but this document was prepared by

7 someone from Kula and somebody had obviously misused or abused my

8 signature. It is not customary for the minister, the number-one man in

9 the ministry, to transfer the people to work on this kind of work in an

10 economic unit. There was an assistant minister in charge of these

11 facilities, plus the prison governors were the persons to deal with these

12 kind of matters. This is definitely not my signature, but I know what it

13 is about.

14 Q. If we could turn next to a document dated 17 July 1992, bearing

15 the heading "Serbian Republic Bosnia-Herzegovina Ministry of Justice

16 Sarajevo." And with the ERN 0301-5749?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be P?

18 THE REGISTRAR: 454, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.


21 Q. Mr. Mandic, P454 is a decision pursuant to Article 11 of the

22 decision on establishing penal and correctional facilities in the

23 territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and indicating

24 that the minister of justice hereby issues a decision appointing Milorad

25 Krnojelac warden of Foca KP Dom in Foca, a decision that shall enter into

Page 8976

1 force on the day of its adoption. It has your name at the bottom and a

2 signature. First of all, is that your signature?

3 A. No. But in order to avoid any confusion now, I realised who had

4 signed these documents. That was my assistant, Slobodan Avlijas. I was

5 aware of this appointment, because he was in charge of prisons and penal,

6 correctional facilities, and the decision was made to appoint Milorad

7 Krnojelac warden of the Foca KPD. And now I realise who signed on my

8 behalf.

9 Q. Thank you for that, Mr. Mandic. Next can we turn to a document

10 dated August 10th, 1992, bearing the heading Serbian Republic of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina Ministry of Justice administration, with the ERN

12 L0102742. This document was disclosed on the 15th of November.

13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P455.

14 JUDGE ORIE: May I just seek one clarification, Mr. Tieger. When

15 you said, Mr. Mandic, that you now recognise who signed these documents,

16 would that include the letter sent from Butmir to Vogosca?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it would.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.


20 Q. Mr. Mandic, P455 appears to be directed to the Serbian

21 municipality of Vogosca War Presidency, Vogosca, with a reference number,

22 your number 03-141/92. And it states: "Regarding your request for the

23 engagement of detainees in works, we hereby inform you that we are in

24 agreement with detainees be temporarily engaged in construction and other

25 works." And it has typewritten your name and minister and then some

Page 8977

1 handwritten notations on the bottom.

2 First of all, Mr. Mandic, do you recall the request and approval

3 to which this document refers?

4 A. No.

5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we believe the translation, instead of

6 temporarily, we believe it should be occasionally, in agreement that

7 detainees be occasionally engaged ..."

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could Ms. Cmeric read the relevant words so that we

9 can seek verification with the interpreters.

10 MS. CMERIC: Certainly, Your Honour. The relevant word is

11 "povremeno."

12 THE INTERPRETER: Occasionally.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Ms. Cmeric, when I'm almost directly

14 addressing you and requesting you, the Chamber highly appreciates that

15 you're willing to do it. Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. First of all, Mr. Mandic, can you see the handwritten notation at

18 the bottom of the document?

19 A. Yes, I can, and I can read it, if you wish.

20 Q. Yes. Thank you. That would be -- that would be great.

21 A. I cannot decipher the first word. Then it goes on to say: "Talks

22 were held with the minister on the 10th of August and approval was given."

23 And it was signed again by the man who had sent this letter. On the upper

24 part it says: "Dispatched on the 10th of August, 1992," probably by fax.

25 Q. And do you recognise the handwriting or the signature of the man

Page 8978

1 who wrote it?

2 A. I think this was Slobodan Avlijas's signature, because he was the

3 person in charge of prisons and these matters. I am not certain about it,

4 but it does bear his signature. Because you can see that the letter was

5 sent on my behalf. It wasn't signed. But there was this notation saying

6 that on the 10th, this person consulted me and I gave my approval.

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we think the first illegible word is

8 "zablijeska [phoen]," which just means "note," apparently. It looks like

9 something fairly harmless.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, is that something you could make out of

11 it as well or ...? Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

12 Thank you, Mr. Stewart, for --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Zablijeska, note, that that

14 was correctly put.


16 Q. Mr. Mandic, the document in -- that single sentence refers to

17 detainees occasionally engaged in construction and other works. Do you

18 know what those other works referred to?

19 A. Probably other types of construction work. I wouldn't be able to

20 answer this question.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, Prosecution's next exhibit in order is

22 an intercepted telephone conversation between Mr. Mandic and Mr. Grkovic

23 on July 3rd, 1992. I think there are three clips that are on the Sanction

24 presentation.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And we will receive a CD-ROM containing these clips.

Page 8979

1 Three clips and one document on one CD? I see that there's nodding from

2 the Prosecution's bench. Then the CD will be 456, the transcript will be

3 456A and the translation into English will be 456A.1. Please proceed.

4 MR. TIEGER: If those clips can be played, please.


6 [Intercept played]

7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

8 JUDGE ORIE: I do not hear a translation.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' apologies.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we restart playing it so that we get an

11 English and a French transcript.

12 [Intercept played]

13 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

14 Radivoje GRKOVIC: It's Grkovic, commander of the Nedzarici

15 battalion.

16 Unknown female person: How may I help you?

17 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Can I speak to one of your superiors?

18 Unknown female person: Which superiors?

19 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Is Momo Mandic there or anyone?

20 Unknown female person: Mandic?

21 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Yes.

22 Unknown female person: Hold on a minute, please.

23 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes?

24 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Hello.

25 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

Page 8980

1 Radivoje GRKOVIC: God be with you.

2 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Oh, good. Say, a favour, a great favour.

3 Momcilo MANDIC: Go ahead.

4 Radivoje GRKOVIC: I need 30 more Turks.

5 Momcilo MANDIC: Yeah.

6 Radivoje GRKOVIC: For two special tasks.

7 Momcilo MANDIC: Can do.

8 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Can you?

9 Momcilo MANDIC: Sure, I'm sure.

10 Radivoje GRKOVIC: How do I get them here?

11 Momcilo MANDIC: When do you need them?

12 Radivoje GRKOVIC: I'd need them today if you can at all.

13 Momcilo MANDIC: All right. I'll tell Ratko ... Ratko in the

14 afternoon to set aside 30 men so you can come and pick them up.

15 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Well, bro, how will I.

16 Momcilo MANDIC: Is this work obligation?

17 Radivoje GRKOVIC: What work obligation. Special that's what it

18 is.

19 Momcilo MANDIC: Special?

20 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Special.

21 Momcilo MANDIC: Well, let's not do this over the phone. Come

22 over here and Djordje Kalezic is here. He's the errand boy.

23 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Do me a favour. You'll be paid back. I need

24 between 30 and 40 Turks at least.

25 Momcilo MANDIC: Fucking hell, it's 4.30. The people are saying

Page 8981

1 they have to go now.

2 Radivoje GRKOVIC: I know. I know. There will be a payback.

3 Momcilo MANDIC: I don't know how we will ...

4 Radivoje GRKOVIC: There ... Load a big truck or a bus two three

5 guards and drive over here through Pale and Ilijas.

6 Momcilo MANDIC: Is this for an exchange or for work?

7 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Not for an exchange, for special work. I'll

8 tell you -- I can't do it over the phone.

9 Momcilo MANDIC: I know, I know. Fuck. How do we do this?

10 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Please do me that favour Momo. Please, I'm

11 asking you like a brother.

12 Momcilo MANDIC: All right.

13 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Through Kasindolska and Nedzarici.

14 Momcilo MANDIC: And Nedzarici.

15 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Yes, the barracks.

16 Momcilo MANDIC: The barracks.

17 Radivoje GRKOVIC: If we have 50, that's even better. But 30 or

18 40 would be ideal.

19 Momcilo MANDIC: Well, I don't -- I don't have transport for them.

20 Hold on a minute. Do you have fuel?

21 Radivoje GRKOVIC: I'll give you oil.

22 Momcilo MANDIC: Oil, huh.

23 Radivoje GRKOVIC: When you come here I'll give you oil.

24 Momcilo MANDIC: Yeah. Yeah.

25 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Is that all right?

Page 8982

1 Momcilo MANDIC: All right. I have that minibus. There are 24

2 seats.

3 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Perfect, perfect. And two escorts and the

4 driver. Is that all right?

5 Momcilo MANDIC: Hang on. Can the bus pass on the road?

6 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Sure, Momo. Passenger vehicles go there as

7 well.

8 Momcilo MANDIC: All right. I'll think of something. Be there

9 tonight.

10 Radivoje GRKOVIC: I don't have civilian telephone lines.

11 Momcilo MANDIC: What do you mean you don't?

12 Radivoje GRKOVIC: I don't. Everything's blocked where I am, cut

13 off. That's it.

14 Momcilo MANDIC: Well, where are you calling from now?

15 Radivoje GRKOVIC: They phones work at the police station in

16 Ilidza.

17 Momcilo MANDIC: Well, here. We'll then Markovic is here.

18 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Those Turks tonight.

19 Momcilo MANDIC: Tonight.

20 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Tonight.

21 Momcilo MANDIC: Yeah.

22 Radivoje GRKOVIC: My word.

23 Momcilo MANDIC: It's agreed.

24 Radivoje GRKOVIC: Thanks, cheers.

25 Momcilo MANDIC: Cheers.

Page 8983


2 Q. Mr. Mandic, can you tell us first who Mr. Grkovic was.

3 A. Mr. Grkovic was the commander of the Nedzarici barracks, of the

4 barracks in the Sarajevo neighbourhood of Nedzarici.

5 Q. When Mr. Grkovic referred to 30 Turks, who was he referring to?

6 A. To Muslims.

7 Q. And was he referring to detained Muslims?

8 A. Yes, those who were up at Kula.

9 Q. And when you refer in the conversation to: "All right. I'll tell

10 Ratko, Ratko in the afternoon to set aside 30 men so you can come and pick

11 them up," who were you referring to?

12 A. Ratko Lalovic, warden of Kula.

13 Q. When Mr. Grkovic referred to special tasks for which he wanted the

14 30 Muslim detainees, what was he referring to?

15 A. I don't know what he was referring to, but I think that it might

16 have been the fortifying of the Nedzarici barracks. I do not know this

17 for a fact. I believe so. Probably digging trenches and fortifying the

18 barracks held by the Serbian army.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'd like next to turn to Prosecution's

20 next in order, a bulletin dated 19 September 1992 and bearing the ERN

21 L0103035.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be P?

23 THE REGISTRAR: P457, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that document was disclosed on the 19th

Page 8984

1 of November.

2 Q. Mr. Mandic, P457 bears the heading Serbian Republic of

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbian municipality of Vogosca prison department and

4 it states: "Pursuant to order number 11/84, dated 17 September 1992, and

5 at the request of brigade commander Mladen Trifunovic, 50 prisoners were

6 taken to Zuc hill to carry out works." And then it goes on to indicate

7 that in the course of the works the following were killed by the enemy,

8 naming four persons, and the following prisoners were wounded on the same

9 day, listing seven persons. There's an indication that there was an

10 attachment, including a list order and a statement, and it bears the --

11 the signatory is the prison warden, Branko Vlaco, and it has a signature.

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. Now, is that the same Branko Vlaco to whom you referred a few

14 moments ago?

15 A. Probably. There was a large family of Vlaco at Vogosca, so he

16 might be a member of the family. I'm not certain. I know that there was

17 a chief of police before the war. This was a man by the name of Vlaco.

18 Whether his first name was Branko or not, I don't know. This family lived

19 in the area of Vogosca, and so there are quite a few Vlacos.

20 Q. Now, the document indicates that at the request of the brigade

21 commander, Mladen Trifunovic, there was an order, and the date of that

22 order. 50 prisoners were taken to Zuc hill to carry out works. Can you

23 tell us what you know about the nature of the works that were -- that

24 those prisoners were tasked to carry out?

25 A. Branko Vlaco was -- appeared here on behalf of the Vogosca

Page 8985

1 municipality prison department and he received a request to send 50

2 prisoners for the purposes of the army. Because under the army law, in a

3 period of an immediate threat of war, the army was entitled to be given at

4 its disposal all the prisoners held in prisons, regardless of whether the

5 prisoners were controlled by the army, the police, or civilian organs.

6 They would issue orders, verbally or in writing, for such men to be given

7 at their disposal and would return these people back to the prisons after

8 the end of the task. That was the Zuc hill where fighting was going on

9 between the Serb and the Muslim armies, and most probably these people

10 were taken there to dig trenches on the separation line. So they had the

11 authority to pick out people from whichever prison they wanted in order to

12 use them for the purposes of defence or whatever other military purposes

13 they had, and this was something that was here referred to by Vlaco

14 Branko.

15 Q. The order that is referred to in the first sentence of the

16 bulletin, that is, number 11/84, do you understand that to be an order

17 that came from Vlaco in response to the request to the brigade commander?

18 A. I don't know who could have issued the order. Perhaps the War

19 Presidency of the Vogosca municipality. I'm not certain as to the

20 authority issuing this order. Perhaps the military command at Vogosca. I

21 wouldn't know. Evidently, Mladen Trifunovic issued a request for Zuc

22 hill. Now, who issued the order, whether it was the army, the civilian

23 authorities, or Vlaco himself, I don't know. I am not familiar with this.

24 Q. And are you able to determine the ethnicity of the prisoners who

25 were killed and wounded by the names that are listed on the document?

Page 8986

1 A. They were all Muslims. And it is evident that these were

2 prisoners of war. Mr. Prosecutor, it says here that while they were

3 performing their work, they were killed. So it must have been on the --

4 along the separation line during the combat activities between the warring

5 parties.

6 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, can we turn next to a telephone

7 conversation between Mr. Krajisnik and Ratko Mladic on 24 May 1992, which

8 was previously marked an entered as P154A, tab 33.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, could you for the transcript inform -- my

10 assistance, repeat the tab number.

11 MR. TIEGER: I'll look it up again to make sure I'm repeating it

12 correctly, Your Honour. Tab 33. And for the benefit of the booth, and I

13 apologise for not mentioning that when I identified the exhibit, this is

14 an item in Sanction.

15 [Intercept played]

16 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

17 Ratko MLADIC: Yes.

18 Unidentified female person: Hello.

19 Ratko MLADIC: Yes, please.

20 Unidentified female person: Good evening.

21 Ratko MLADIC: Good evening.

22 Unidentified female person: Mr. Krajisnik's office.

23 Ratko MLADIC: Yes, please.

24 Unidentified female person: Is General around?

25 Ratko MLADIC: It's me.

Page 8987

1 Unidentified female person: One moment, please.

2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

3 Ratko MLADIC: Mladic.

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Good evening, General.

5 Ratko MLADIC: Good evening. Can you hear me?

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Perfectly. Can you hear me?

7 Ratko MLADIC: I hear you, but be careful, there is -- between

8 us ...

9 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I know, I know ...

10 Ratko MLADIC: Mediator.

11 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I understand everything.

12 Ratko MLADIC: Okay.

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Has Minister Mandic arrived down there?

14 Ratko MLADIC: He was here today but I don't know. It seems that

15 he left.

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: He will come down there.

17 Ratko MLADIC: Okay.

18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And we should ... I, I will find him.

19 Ratko MLADIC: Okay.

20 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I have to give him some information.

21 Ratko MLADIC: Okay.

22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And now I will try and see if there's a guy

23 with a jeep here.

24 Ratko MLADIC: Okay.

25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And please, when he arrives ...

Page 8988

1 Ratko MLADIC: Okay.

2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: A piece of information that he conveys is

3 related to this information.

4 Ratko MLADIC: Okay.

5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: We should do that no matter what it takes.

6 Ratko MLADIC: Okay.

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: So I will try and find him now, and if I don't

8 find him ...

9 Ratko MLADIC: Okay.

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I'll send someone with a jeep to bring it to

11 you in the morning.

12 Ratko MLADIC: Okay.

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Because I believe you have other things to do

14 tomorrow regarding this relocation, right?

15 Ratko MLADIC: No problem.

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: If it wasn't late, you would see it now,

17 because this is a serious piece of information that I've got.

18 Ratko MLADIC: Okay.

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Okay. I'll try and find someone. But please,

20 when he comes, if there are any problems, I'm quite sure you'll agree upon

21 that.

22 Ratko MLADIC: No problem.

23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: But this information has confirmed that the

24 problem is even more serious than I thought.

25 Ratko MLADIC: Okay. This is what we'll do, up there, at my

Page 8989

1 place, there is ...

2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

3 Ratko MLADIC: At Milovanovic ...

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes.

5 Ratko MLADIC: If that's not possible, if the weather's nice

6 tomorrow morning, it should be transported with that device ...

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes.

8 Ratko MLADIC: That Milosanovic went by ...

9 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes.

10 Ratko MLADIC: He will come to my place. He's already on his way.

11 Just call him ...

12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Is he on his way to your place already?

13 Ratko MLADIC: No, no, but he can deliver it on his way.

14 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Of course.

15 Ratko MLADIC: Milovanovic, has he been with you today?

16 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: No, he wasn't here.

17 Ratko MLADIC: He wasn't?

18 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: And it would be good if you are in touch with

19 him. He could come by and I could give him this for you.

20 Ratko MLADIC: No, no, he is not going to be coming here. It's

21 not a problem if it comes to me in the vehicle.

22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Okay anyway you'll receive this, this evening

23 or tomorrow morning.

24 Ratko MLADIC: No problem.

25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Okay.

Page 8990

1 Ratko MLADIC: Otherwise, how are you?

2 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Well I am fine I'm just a little bit concerned

3 about certain things. I think everything's fine.

4 Ratko MLADIC: Everything's going be just fine. Don't be worried.

5 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: The God willing, General, right?

6 Ratko MLADIC: That's right [laughter].

7 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: [Laughter].

8 Ratko MLADIC: God willing, and if we do it.

9 Momcilo Krajisnik: No, no. I know that, sometimes God can use a

10 little help.

11 Ratko MLADIC: That's right, we should help him.

12 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Thank you very much.

13 Ratko MLADIC: Let me tell you, this thing went fine today, these

14 here were fair mostly, they've been breaking my nerves the whole day, and

15 I don't think I'll be able to manage until they ... we start in the

16 morning and the relocation is being carried out in the evening.

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Such problems I've had this evening.

18 Ratko MLADIC: Because of what?

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Our people came here, asked me questions about

20 the drivers that came back.

21 Ratko MLADIC: Don't you worry about anything.

22 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: But I tried like a real politician and I could

23 hardly convince them.

24 Ratko MLADIC: Just tell them, it's better that way, we care for

25 lives.

Page 8991

1 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes.

2 Ratko MLADIC: And we'll take care about everything else.

3 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, of course. Very well.

4 Ratko MLADIC: Everything's going be all right, President, don't

5 you worry.

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Okay.

7 Ratko MLADIC: We offered them peace and they accepted it, and I

8 can see that they are doing it the way they should now, had they done it

9 like this before, none of this would have happened.

10 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I know, it would sure be better than the other

11 way.

12 Ratko MLADIC: Don't you worry about anything President.

13 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Okay.

14 Ratko MLADIC: Everything's going be all right don't you worry.

15 We'll take care of those things that we have talked about, you know,

16 dislocation.

17 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes.

18 Ratko MLADIC: And speaking about mine, it will have to wait.

19 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes, yes.

20 Ratko MLADIC: I will have to stay longer, I feel great here.

21 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: No, no, I completely agree, it's all right.

22 Ratko MLADIC: Here by Miljacka.

23 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: You know that.

24 Ratko MLADIC: Everything's all right next to Miljacka.

25 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Yes. I've received information about those up

Page 8992

1 there doing a great job. I'm sorry about today, the line was bad, but I

2 think it's good over there in Lisbon.

3 Ratko MLADIC: Is that right?

4 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: I'll talk to you tomorrow.

5 Ratko MLADIC: Okay, thanks, bye.

6 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: You're welcome, bye.

7 Ratko MLADIC: Say hello to everybody.

8 Momcilo KRAJISNIK: Thanks a lot. Bye.

9 Ratko MLADIC: Bye.


11 Q. First, Mr. Mandic, do you recognise the participants in that

12 conversation?

13 A. The participants are General Ratko Mladic and Mr. Momcilo

14 Krajisnik.

15 Q. And do you know the -- let me say first. Mr. Krajisnik asks

16 General Mladic in an earlier portion of the conversation whether or not

17 you had arrived down there. General Mladic indicates that you were there

18 today but it appears that you have left. And Mr. Krajisnik indicates that

19 you will come down there. And General Mladic indicates: Yes.

20 First of all, do you recall the -- well, let me ask you: Do you

21 know what issues were being addressed by General Mladic and Mr. Krajisnik

22 in this conversation?

23 A. I think this took place at the time when General Ratko Mladic was

24 at Lukavica, at the Slavisa Vajner Cica barracks, and that quite possibly

25 the instant matter was the moving out or the dislocation of the army from

Page 8993

1 the Marsal Tito and Viktor Bubanj barracks in Sarajevo. That's what I

2 think this is about, about dislocating those children, the recruits, from

3 these two barracks.

4 Q. And do you recall receiving information from Mr. Krajisnik and

5 conveying it to General Mladic about the barracks?

6 A. This is a bit confusing, because Momcilo Krajisnik said that he

7 was supposed to convey some information to me, meaning really to me, and

8 he was addressing Ratko Mladic.

9 Q. If we -- I see it's getting late, Your Honour. I'll make this the

10 last question I ask.

11 If we look a little bit farther down in the conversation, after

12 Mr. Krajisnik asked if you have arrived down there and General Mladic

13 indicates that you had been there previously. But it appeared you had

14 left, Mr. Krajisnik states: "I have to give him some information,"

15 appearing to refer to you as "him." And then he says: "And now I'll try

16 and see if there's a guy with a jeep here."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And then he says, "please when he arrives," a piece of information

19 that he conveys is related to this information. Does that shed any light

20 on who was giving you information in connection with this conversation and

21 what you were to do with the information?

22 A. I think this has to do with the dislocation of these two barracks

23 from the federal Sarajevo, because at that time, that was my only reason

24 to be in contact with Mladic. Because the Slavisa Vajner Cica barracks

25 where Ratko Mladic was for a period of time is very close to -- or was

Page 8994

1 very close to the line of contact, line of separation. Some 500 metres

2 away, that's where the district court and the Kula prison were, and all

3 the other institutions of justice administration. So I probably went up

4 to Pale, to Jahorina hotel, but I don't remember what sort of information

5 Krajisnik was supposed to convey to me, perhaps related to my family - I

6 did have some problems there at this period of time - or whether the

7 information had to do with the dislocation of these barracks that were

8 encircled, the Viktor Bubanj and the Marsal Tito barracks that found

9 themselves in a difficult situation at the time. But I cannot recall at

10 present.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It's close to 10 minutes to 2.00. We'll adjourn for

12 the day.

13 Mr. Mandic, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning, 9.00.

14 Madam Registrar, I take it that we are in the same courtroom.

15 May I again instruct you not to speak with anyone about your

16 testimony you have given already or you're still about to give.

17 Madam Usher, could you perhaps first escort the witness and

18 Mr. Tomic out of the courtroom.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 [Witness's counsel withdrew]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, could you give us an indication how much

22 time you'd still need.

23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would anticipate that the Prosecution

24 will conclude its examination-in-chief roughly at the end of the first

25 session of tomorrow's -- or the first period of tomorrow's session,

Page 8995

1 roughly.

2 JUDGE ORIE: A little bit over one hour. Thank you for your

3 information. It is confirmed by Madam Registrar that we'll be in

4 Courtroom II tomorrow morning, 9.00. We adjourn for the day.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 30th day of

7 November 2004, at 9.00 a.m.