Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8996

1 Tuesday, 30 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus

7 Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Before we have asked the Prosecution to resume its

10 examination-in-chief, I'd like to draw the attention of the parties to the

11 fact that we are now starting at 12 minutes past 9.00. I take this

12 opportunity because I myself was late, but not 12 minutes late. I had a

13 good reason for it, and I take it that whenever someone is late, that

14 there should be a good reason for that. Of course, it can happen. The

15 Chamber is late now and then as well. But very often it happens that the

16 Chamber is waiting outside, waiting either for resolution of technical

17 problems or the arrival of whoever it is. So I'm in the happy position

18 not to blame anyone for it, but I'd like at the same time to encourage

19 everyone to be there at such time that we do not lose, as today, 12

20 minutes. And again, I'm to be blamed myself this morning, so therefore

21 it's encouraging the Chamber as well not unnecessarily to cause a late

22 start.

23 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

24 courtroom, and at the same time Mr. Tomic.

25 [Witness's counsel entered court]

Page 8997

1 [The witness entered court]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Mandic. Please be seated.

3 Mr. Tomic, also good morning to you.

4 Mr. Mandic, I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the

5 solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony.

6 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.


8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Examined by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

11 A. Good morning, Mr. Prosecutor.

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I mentioned the other day when the Court

13 inquired, I think actually counsel inquired about the date of a particular

14 document, that it had been dated essentially by contextualisation. I have

15 one document that may shed some light on the effort to identify the date

16 of the document in -- through that manner, and so I'd ask to have that

17 marked next in order. That's R0172473.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number?


20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, P458 is what appears to be a fax coming

21 from UNPROFOR of eight pages. The date of the cover page is 27 July 1992

22 and it transmits messages to Mr. Colin Doyle from Ms. Sabina Berberovic, a

23 message to Lord Carrington from Alija Izetbegovic and there is attached on

24 the last two pages a list of prisons and detention facilities.

25 Q. Mr. Mandic, if I could just direct your attention to the last two

Page 8998

1 pages of that document and simply ask you if the list reflected here

2 appears to be the kind of list that was submitted in this case by the

3 Bosnian side, listing places in which they claimed Muslims were being held

4 by Serb authorities or Bosnian Serb authorities.

5 A. This document bearing the signature of Mr. Vukovic is a document

6 of the State Commission for Exchange of War Prisoners of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina that was delivered to the international community,

8 containing the places where there were prisoners held by the Serb side,

9 that is, the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I believe it was

10 yesterday when we were listening to Ms. Biljana Plavsic that we discussed

11 her denying certain allegations put forth by Mr. Vukovic concerning some

12 places that are actually outside Bosnia-Herzegovina, like Serbia and

13 Montenegro, like Nis, Belgrade, Herceg-Novi, Niksic, and so on and so

14 forth.

15 Mr. Prosecutor, I've already said that as Ms. Plavsic was

16 responding to this, to a journalist, Gligorijevic, I believe, that both

17 sides produced such lists for propaganda purposes. I'm not quite sure

18 that they would have four to five places within each municipality where

19 they would keep people, but I myself had never seen this particular list.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, may I just seek some clarification?

21 I think your testimony yesterday was that the statement of

22 Mrs. Plavsic, that that was war propaganda, rather than the list. And I

23 would like to invite you to perhaps look at this list and see how many

24 locations exactly are outside the Serb-controlled territory of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina, so outside the state boundaries. You mentioned Belgrade. I

Page 8999

1 see two entries Belgrade. I see one entry Nis. I see one entry Niksic.

2 A. Loznica. Your Honour, Loznica sports centre under item 22,

3 Belgrade Batajnica, military airfield 28; Belgrade, the 4th of July

4 barracks, 29; Nis military camp, 30; Subotica collection centre, 31;

5 Herceg-Novi, under item 34 --


7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Niksic, 35. I can't make out the

8 two last ones because it's a poor copy.

9 JUDGE ORIE: So we've got several on page 1 and then on page 2 I

10 cannot find any, but perhaps my knowledge of the geography is not perfect.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The second page contains places that

12 are all in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

14 Please proceed.

15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, I'd like to

16 move on to Prosecution's next in order, which is an intercepted telephone

17 conversation on April 20th, 1992, involving Mr. Cedo Kljajic,

18 Mr. Tomislav Kovac, and then between Mr. Mandic and Mr. Kovac.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P459 and P459A for the

20 transcript.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, is there -- in respect of the previous

22 exhibit, is there any translation into B/C/S? Because the list, of

23 course, is not very much in need of any translation. But the letter, of

24 course, you tendered that into evidence as well, and usually evidence

25 should be in a language the accused understands.

Page 9000

1 MR. TIEGER: I agree, Your Honour. We'll have that translated.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Of course, let's be very practical.

3 Unless the Defence would agree of only tendering the list. I mean, the

4 question -- questions were only about the list, so of course the Defence

5 could look at how important the letter is. You paid no attention to it at

6 all. If that would help us out, then it would save us a lot of resources

7 for translation.

8 MR. TIEGER: Yes. I think that's --

9 JUDGE ORIE: So the Defence is invited to --

10 MR. TIEGER: If it's acceptable to the Defence and we should give

11 Mr. Stewart an opportunity to review it and consider it.

12 MR. STEWART: I think if I -- may I leave it this way,

13 Your Honour, that Mr. Tieger has offered to have it translated. We accept

14 the offer. But if perhaps in the course of this morning, if we notify

15 them that we don't need a translation of that, then we'll work that way.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're invited to consider that.

17 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

19 MR. TIEGER: I'll mention for the benefit of the booth that this

20 intercepted telephone conversation, as the others, it is in Sanction, and

21 they should know that in order to play it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any technical problem which prevents us from

23 hearing the intercept?

24 MR. TIEGER: Apparently not, Your Honour. And I should mention

25 for the Court's benefit, there are two clips to this particular intercept.

Page 9001

1 [Intercept played]

2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

3 Cedo KLJAJIC: Hello.

4 Tomislav KOVAC: Yes.

5 Cedo KLJAJIC: Tomo.

6 Tomislav KOVAC: Yes.

7 Cedo KLJAJIC: It is Cedo Kljajic. How are you?

8 Tomislav KOVAC: How are you, Cedo?

9 Cedo KLJAJIC: What's up, buddy?

10 Tomislav KOVAC: Well, fuck it ...

11 Cedo KLJAJIC: What are you doing?

12 Tomislav KOVAC: Well, fuck it, I'm clearing this shit up. Fuck

13 it they make a mess and ...

14 Cedo KLJAJIC: I know.

15 Tomislav KOVAC: Yes.

16 Cedo KLJAJIC: Well, Momo called Djeric up there some minutes ago.

17 Tomislav KOVAC: Yes.

18 Cedo KLJAJIC: To Pale. Well, regarding these checkpoints set up

19 there.

20 Tomislav KOVAC: Yes.

21 Cedo KLJAJIC: Well, it is their and our unanimous opinion that

22 those should not be impenetrable for all, you know, but that people should

23 be allowed to pass, fuck it.

24 Tomislav KOVAC: Listen, you do not know the decision of the

25 Crisis Staff of Ilidza, that it made a decision to block life in Ilidza.

Page 9002

1 Cedo KLJAJIC: Mico is up there at the moment. He went this

2 evening, well, to Pale, and here Momo wants to talk to you.

3 Tomislav KOVAC: Yes.

4 Momcilo MANDIC: Tomo.

5 Tomislav KOVAC: Yes.

6 Momcilo MANDIC: How are you, head, head of the security service

7 centre?

8 Tomislav KOVAC: Well, fuck me ...

9 Momcilo MANDIC: Come on, put that Prstojevic in prison, fuck

10 him ...

11 Tomislav KOVAC: Who?

12 Momcilo MANDIC: That Prstojevic.

13 Tomislav KOVAC: Come on, fuck it. In prison, don't fuck with me.

14 Take politics into consideration.

15 Momcilo MANDIC: I've just phoned Djeric and Krajisnik, man, and

16 they say it has been ordered that checkpoints should be flexible.

17 Tomislav KOVAC: And they have made the decision yesterday to

18 block life in Ilidza, man, so that not a pedestrian ...

19 Momcilo MANDIC: Who made the decision?

20 Tomislav KOVAC: Well, the Ilidza Crisis Staff, man.

21 Momcilo MANDIC: But, man, that is ... They have made a wrong

22 decision. They cannot make such a decision.


24 Q. Mr. Mandic, can you first tell us who the participants in this

25 conversation are.

Page 9003

1 A. Participants in this conversation are Cedo Kljajic, the

2 under-secretary for public security, or chief of police at the level of

3 Republika Srpska; Tomo Kovac, the then chief of the security centre of

4 Ilidza; and myself.

5 Q. And the conversation -- in the course of the conversation,

6 Mr. Kovac and -- well, in the portion of the conversation we heard,

7 Mr. Kljajic mentions Mico, and we can see from the transcript that that is

8 in response to a question by Mr. Kovac: "Tell me, is Mico Stanisic

9 there?" Can you identify for us with respect to those who participated in

10 the conversation and Mico Stanisic the hierarchy of the Bosnian Serb MUP

11 at that time with respect to those individuals, Mico Stanisic, yourself,

12 Mr. Kljajic, and Mr. Kovac?

13 A. Mico Stanisic was the MUP minister. I was deputy at the time on

14 the 24th. I was Mico's deputy. Kljajic was the chief of the public

15 security service, and Kovac was the chief of the security centre of

16 Ilidza. This was the problem in the beginning of the war, when the crisis

17 staffs wanted to take control over the municipalities, and they wanted to

18 control the movement of civilians and people in general within their

19 territories, which was not in accordance with the decisions of the

20 political leadership, either the prime minister or Mr. Krajisnik. I

21 proposed here that this particular president should be locked up, this

22 president of the Crisis Staff of the municipality of Ilidza, Prstojevic,

23 who ordered the full blockade of movement in Ilidza. Kljajic could not do

24 that, because the police could not lock up municipal functionaries. And I

25 believe that this was a problem experienced in the beginning of the war,

Page 9004

1 in April 1992.

2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's been drawn to mention that

3 Mr. Tieger's last question identified a passage in the intercept which was

4 in fact between the two clips that were actually played.

5 MR. TIEGER: I attempted to mention that that was not a portion of

6 the intercept that had been played, but instead it appeared in the

7 transcript just before the second clip began.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any confusion with the witness at this

9 moment on this point? Or should it be read to him? I don't remember.

10 MR. TIEGER: The predicate for the question, Your Honour, was that

11 in the course of the portion of the intercept that was played, Mr. Kljajic

12 mentioned Mico. I indicated that in the transcript of the intercept, that

13 mention of Mico occurs in response to a question about Mico Stanisic,

14 which can be seen on the transcript but not heard on the portion that was

15 played.

16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, my observation is only really a minor

17 one, which is that if there's -- if there's a purpose in playing these

18 intercepts at all, rather simply showing the text to the witness, it's --

19 it's really a false saving to take out a tiny bit in the middle between

20 two clips rather than play the whole thing through as the basis of the

21 questioning.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As a general rule you're right, but I think

23 it's no reason to replay at this moment.

24 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour. I'm not requesting that in this

25 case.

Page 9005

1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed.

2 MR. STEWART: But the point is valid, I think.



5 Q. And Mr. Mandic, you became aware of this issue in Ilidza and

6 contacted the political leadership and then advised Mr. Kovac in this

7 conversation that Mr. Djeric and Mr. Krajisnik had ordered that the

8 checkpoints should be flexible?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that question misstates the -- I've

11 just noticed as I'm looking at it. Misstates what's said in the

12 transcript, because it's -- putting it to the witness in those terms and

13 asking him to confirm is not the correct way of putting it because that's

14 at -- then advise Mr. Kovac in this conversation that Mr. Djeric and

15 Mr. Krajisnik had ordered that the checkpoints should be flexible. In

16 fact --

17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'll ask the question if Mr. Stewart is

18 insisting on clarification. Again, these are matters.

19 MR. STEWART: Do you mind letting me finish, please.

20 JUDGE ORIE: If Mr. Tieger offers.

21 MR. STEWART: He doesn't know what I'm going to say, does he?

22 JUDGE ORIE: The first thing is that you say that the question

23 misstates what's in the transcript and Mr. Tieger now offers to correct

24 that in such a way. So let's first wait how Mr. Tieger proceeds and then

25 if there's still any remaining issue, then we'll see that.

Page 9006

1 Mr. Tieger.


3 Q. Mr. Mandic, before this conversation took place, had you been

4 advised of the problem in Ilidza concerning checkpoints?

5 A. I think it was Cedo Kljajic who informed me of the problem, and

6 he, in turn, was informed by Tomo Kovac according to the hierarchy in MUP.

7 Then I called Mr. Djeric and consulted with Mr. Krajisnik as to what was

8 supposed to be done with these decisions of the Crisis Staff that nearly

9 blocked life in municipalities by blocking these checkpoints. The police

10 asked for the situation to be kept under control in order to prevent

11 violence from escalating, to have these checkpoints to control the

12 movement of vehicles, weapons, ammunition, and so on. Because it was

13 highly likely that there would be such flow of weapons. And this

14 Prstojevic, who was the chief of the Crisis Staff, he seemed to have

15 blocked life in Ilidza, according to what was said by Kljajic. And I

16 said, well, I thought he was not really all there, and I thought that he

17 had to be locked away.

18 Q. And what did Mr. Krajisnik tell you in response to the information

19 you provided about the problem?

20 A. I believe I consulted him on this issue, Mr. Prosecutor. This was

21 a long time ago. Rather, I consulted Mr. Djeric, but I also might have

22 asked for Mr. Krajisnik's advice, because I did sometimes ask for his

23 advice and he told me that life should not be blocked, that however, the

24 police should continue keeping the situation under control and continue

25 with the check-ups as was the case in Pale. But this was generally the

Page 9007

1 problem in the beginning of the war. There was this conflict between the

2 civilian and military authorities, the police, on the other hand, the

3 infrastructures were severed, there was severed communication between the

4 municipal, regional, and the republic levels.

5 Q. The intercept from --

6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we -- after five minutes or so, or two,

7 three minutes, whatever, we have not dealt with the point that I was going

8 to make --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you may raise the point.

10 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. It was this, Your Honour,

11 that at page 10, line 7, what Mr. Tieger put to the witness was:

12 "Mr. Mandic, you became aware of this issue in Ilidza and contacted the

13 political leadership and then advised Mr. Kovac in this conversation that

14 Mr. Djeric and Mr. Krajisnik had ordered that the checkpoints should be

15 flexible."

16 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me. I am going to interrupt

17 Mr. Stewart at this point. That was a question I was just about to ask.

18 He has an uncanny ability to interrupt an examination just before the

19 question is going to be asked by the Prosecution. So whether or not to

20 formulate in his own way, I don't know, but I think it should have been

21 clear as I directed the witness's attention to the intercept that that is

22 precisely where I was going.

23 MR. STEWART: So uncanny is my instinct that it's a fantastic

24 coincidence, but I will just sit down and see where we go.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Both counsel are invited to allow each other to

Page 9008

1 perform their tasks in a smooth way, not to intervene unnecessarily, and

2 not to add to a slight irritation that seems to exist.

3 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Mandic, the intercept transcript indicates -- well, in the

6 course of the conversation, you state: "I've just phoned Djeric and

7 Krajisnik, man, and they say it has been ordered that checkpoints should

8 be flexible." First of all, I take it you confirm that in 1992, speaking

9 to Mr. Kovac just after the -- just as the event was happening and just

10 after you had been in contact with the leadership in Pale, you indicated

11 to Mr. Kovac that you had just phoned Djeric and Krajisnik.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you said: "I've just phoned Djeric and Krajisnik, man, and

14 they say it has been ordered that checkpoints should be flexible." Who

15 ordered that checkpoints should be flexible?

16 A. The political leadership of Republika Srpska. I was probably told

17 both by Mr. Djeric and Mr. Krajisnik about that. However, who took the

18 decision personally, I don't know, but I did call only these two men.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'd like to next move to --

20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, if that is the extent to which my point

21 which I've twice tried to make but not --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Make your point. If there's any remaining

23 point, please do so.

24 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. It's this, that at

25 page 10, line 7, the passage - I'll have to start it again cause it's four

Page 9009

1 or five lines - the question was: "And Mr. Mandic, you became aware of

2 this issue in Ilidza and contacted the political leadership and then

3 advised Mr. Kovac in this conversation that Mr. Djeric and Mr. Krajisnik

4 had ordered that the checkpoints should be flexible."

5 In fact, the intercept does not say that. It says: "I've just

6 phoned --" this is just below the middle of the second page of the

7 English, Mr. Mandic: "I've just phoned Djeric and Krajisnik man and they

8 say it has been ordered that checkpoints should be flexible." Which is

9 different. It's plainly different. And the witness said "yes."

10 My concern is this: That Mr. Tieger has asked further questions

11 and it eventually got to a question which specifically asked about who had

12 ordered. But if we have on the record a question and answer like that,

13 yes, this indicates the -- the dangers of putting to a witness a question

14 which is potentially confusingly close to what was actually said in the

15 intercept, but is in fact inaccurate. So my submission is that questions

16 in that form should be corrected in the sense that they should then be

17 withdrawn, because it isn't fair that a question and answer like that

18 remains on the record when the question contained has such a clear error

19 in the representation of the text of the intercept.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, first of all, in the further questions

21 it has been become abundantly clear that the way Mr. Tieger presented the

22 text of the intercept was not fully correct and that finally the specific

23 question was put to the witness and he gave a clear answer that it was

24 not -- at least that he has no knowledge on Mr. Djeric and Mr. Krajisnik

25 ordering anything about flexibility of checkpoints. So that has been

Page 9010

1 clarified sufficiently and the transcript will be read not letter by

2 letter but in -- as a whole.

3 Next time, if a similar thing happens, I think one line would do.

4 If you would just have asked me or invited Mr. Tieger to quote the part of

5 the transcript literally, that would have taken just seven seconds and

6 that would certainly have been followed by Mr. Tieger, and if not, I would

7 have instructed him to do so. And then I think we would have come to a

8 point where both the Defence, you, and I said that both parties should

9 allow each other to perform their tasks, that you would have done your

10 task and that, at the same time, the examination of the witness would have

11 been more smooth. So, therefore, that's to say -- just some guidance on

12 how to do that next time.

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I say, I submit that's a most

14 unfair --


16 MR. STEWART: And any reading of the transcript will indicate if I

17 had been allowed courteously to make my objection in very short terms,

18 this matter would have been dealt with about five minutes ago.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Mr. Mandic, I'd like to turn next to another intercepted telephone

22 conversation during that same general period of time. That's a

23 conversation that has already been marked and the first portion of which

24 we began to play at the end of one session. It's 429, I believe. And

25 that's a conversation between Mr. Mandic and Mr. Kovac. We never actually

Page 9011

1 played it. We just had it marked and then we began to play it and only

2 got through the first couple of sentences, I think, before encountering

3 some technical difficulties. So we should play it. Again, it's on

4 Sanction.

5 [Intercept played]

6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

7 Momcilo MANDIC: What was that telephone number in Ilidza again?

8 Tomislav KOVAC: Hello.

9 Momcilo MANDIC: Momo Mandic on the phone. Who is there?

10 Tomislav KOVAC: Momo, Tomo here.

11 Momcilo MANDIC: Tomo, how are you?

12 Tomislav KOVAC: Well.

13 Momcilo MANDIC: Tell me, what's up in Ilidza?

14 Tomislav KOVAC: Fuck, a lot.

15 Momcilo MANDIC: Are there big problems?

16 Tomislav KOVAC: Well, we are holding our territory, you know.

17 Momcilo MANDIC: Is it now getting critical or what?

18 Momcilo MANDIC: And do you have any heavy weaponry?

19 Tomislav KOVAC: Okay. We have heavy weaponry on the side, on the

20 side.

21 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes. And give a warning. Alert stage one.

22 Tomo, please tell me I am in Vraca. I came to Vraca and if, call for

23 God's sake, and us ten or what will come. I don't know these territorial

24 defenders from Novo Sarajevo motherfuckers. I don't even know who is in

25 charge of them nor what they are not [as interpreted]. One have to inform

Page 9012

1 Vojkovici and Lukavica in time to shell Sokolovic Kolonija in case they

2 attack you.

3 Tomislav KOVAC: Listen, if this happens, Momo, we have to get

4 this straight. We can't take this any more. We can't just be defending

5 here around Ilidza, you understand. We have to organise ourselves and

6 either win this thing or lose. We can't take this any more. They

7 attack. We stop them. They attack again. If there is a chance we should

8 finish them off once for all I suggest that we attack Sokolovic Kolonija

9 from both sides.

10 Momcilo MANDIC: As for me, it should be destroyed. I would level

11 it to the ground.

12 Tomislav KOVAC: They provoked everything. I feel sorry for those

13 moderate Muslims who don't want that.

14 Momcilo MANDIC: We need to. These people are from Sandzak. I

15 would them --

16 Tomislav KOVAC: People from Sandzak they trick them and people

17 die in Butmir Hrasnica, motherfuckers. Why don't they stop them?

18 Momcilo MANDIC: You're absolutely right.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that they do have a

20 feeling that some of the transcript was missing, although it was very

21 difficult to hear the tape. But it does seem that we had fewer text than

22 was actually uttered.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for this observation.

24 Mr. Tieger.

25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, it appears that the last page of the

Page 9013

1 English translation was not provided to the interpreters, and perhaps I

2 can direct the witness's attention to that and make sure it's read and

3 translated. It's just a few lines, as the Court may be able to see from

4 its own transcript.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Wouldn't it be wise to have that last part

6 read.

7 MR. STEWART: That seems not necessarily to be the same point that

8 the interpreters are making. The comments seem to refer to bits where

9 they did in fact have the transcript but that they suggested that there

10 was less text in those passages than what was actually said, which seems

11 to be a slightly different point.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would it be of any use to replay it and to see

13 whether in a second round we could come to a more perfect presentation of

14 the -- of this evidence?

15 THE INTERPRETER: The difficulty is that the spoken language runs

16 so fast that it is difficult to actually even follow by sight, the text,

17 and the quality is very poor.

18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, perhaps we could inquire whether or not

19 the booth has the -- has three pages of an English translation, which of

20 course -- which I suspect is the source of the problem, but may not be.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first check whether you have all of the English

22 translation. Do you have three pages, last page containing only some 10

23 or 11 lines?

24 THE INTERPRETER: We have what seems to be written here as 3 of 6

25 pages.

Page 9014

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Last page starting with "Kovac Tomislav: I

2 have all extremists in Ilidza" ... ? Is that --

3 THE INTERPRETER: That is correct.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Then the problem remains, Mr. Tieger, that the

5 interpreters cannot --

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar draws my attention to the fact that

8 also there was a hold, they stopped in the middle and they restarted

9 again.

10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, there are two clips to this intercept.

11 Otherwise we'll be playing more than is necessary, it seems to me, and I

12 would also -- I'll be directing questions to the second clip.


14 MR. TIEGER: If that's of any assistance to the Court.

15 JUDGE ORIE: And where does the second clip then start.

16 MR. TIEGER: It should begin with Mr. Kovac -- it begins in the

17 middle of the English translation, second page, with Mr. Kovac saying:

18 "We are controlling Ilizda."

19 JUDGE ORIE: Ilidza. Then let's perhaps replay that part and see

20 whether -- if one of the interpreters could try to follow the audio and

21 see whether it's reflected well in the B/C/S version and if the other

22 interpreter would then perhaps read those parts and report to me at the

23 very end whether it was still too speedy to follow.

24 Could we replay the second clip.

25 [Intercept played]

Page 9015

1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

2 Tomislav KOVAC: We are controlling Ilidza but we received

3 information from three sides that Juka Prazina already has mounted mortars

4 with the intention of shelling us.

5 Momcilo MANDIC: From where?

6 Tomislav KOVAC: Otes.

7 Momcilo MANDIC: From Otes or what?

8 Momcilo MANDIC: And do you have any heavy weaponry?

9 Tomislav KOVAC: Okay. We have heavy weaponry on the side ... on

10 the side ...

11 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, yes, and give a warning. Alert stage one,

12 Tomo. Please tell me. I am in these Territorial Defence [as

13 interpreted], I came to Vraca. I'm in Vraca. I came to Vraca and if,

14 call for God's sake, and us ten or what will come. I don't know these

15 territorial defenders from Novo Sarajevo motherfuckers. I don't even know

16 who is in charge of them nor what they are at. We have to inform

17 Vojkovici and Lukavica in time to shell Sokolovic Kolonija in case they

18 attack you.

19 Tomislav KOVAC: Listen, if this happens, Momo, we have to get

20 this straight. We can't take this any more. We can't just be defending

21 here around Ilidza, you understand, we have to organise ourselves once and

22 either win this thing other lose. We can't take this any more. They

23 attack. We stop them. They attack again. If there is a chance we should

24 finish them off once for all. I suggest that we attack Sokolovic Kolonija

25 for both side.

Page 9016

1 Momcilo MANDIC: As for me it should be destroyed. I would level

2 it to the ground.

3 Tomislav KOVAC: They provoked everything. I feel sorry for those

4 moderate Muslims who don't want that.

5 Momcilo MANDIC: We need to. These people are from Sandzak. I

6 would them ...

7 Tomislav KOVAC: People from Sandzak, they trick them, and people

8 die in Butmir and Hrasnica, motherfuckers, why don't they stop them.

9 Momcilo MANDIC: You are absolutely right.

10 Tomislav KOVAC: I have all extremists in Ilidza under my control

11 and there is nothing else.

12 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, Tomo, please tell me if anything happens,

13 and prepare heavy artillery. And if anything moves engage immediately. I

14 will level Sokolovic Kolonija to the ground, fuck them. I am going now to

15 Lukavica to instruct those who have them in close tabs to level them if

16 anything moves on Ilidza.

17 Tomislav KOVAC: Okay.

18 Momcilo MANDIC: We'll hear from each other.

19 Tomislav KOVAC: Okay.

20 Momcilo MANDIC: Bye.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Before we -- before I ask the interpreters,

22 Mr. Tieger, are you going to put questions to the witness in relation to

23 what he said or to what Mr. Kovac said? Because I tried to follow at

24 least the -- I can't understand it, the words spoken by the two

25 participants in this conversation, and I noticed that at least the text

Page 9017

1 spoken by Mr. Mandic seems to be far more clear. Is that -- could you

2 tell us whether the questions will be about the Kovac part or the Mandic

3 part.

4 MR. TIEGER: Primarily directed to Mr. Mandic's comments,

5 Your Honour, I think, but -- well, if --


7 MR. TIEGER: If we move into that area, you'll certainly be aware

8 of it and I'll be -- I'll bear in mind the Court's observations.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask the interpreters now whether it was

10 possible to check whether the B/C/S spoken words appear more or less --

11 no, of course it should be precise on the transcript. Although I noticed

12 that sometime there was a very short "yes" or just a short intervention by

13 the other part, not really spoken words, which are missing in the

14 transcript. Could you inform us.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. The substantial part is there. There may

16 be some expletives missing, but substantially it is all there.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.

18 MR. STEWART: Can I say, Your Honour, we're happy with the B/C/S

19 transcript, Ms. Cmeric tells me that there really is no significant

20 problem at all with that.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then let's proceed.


23 Q. Mr. Mandic, this conversation took place on April 23rd, 1992. That

24 was the time when you were still deputy minister of the Bosnian Serb MUP?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9018

1 Q. Now, in the latter part of the intercept, you say to Mr. Kovac:

2 "Yes, Tomo. Please tell me if anything happens and prepare heavy

3 artillery, and if anything moves, engage immediately." What -- when you

4 told Mr. Kovac to engage immediately if anything moved, what did that

5 refer to?

6 A. Momo Kovac held the municipality of Ilidza and even before the war

7 he was the chief of MUP of Ilidza. The municipality was composed of

8 several neighbourhoods, and between Hrasnica and Ilidza, there was the

9 place called Sokolovic Kolonija, where Muslims from foreign countries came

10 and settled there, and they launched several attacks and provoked war

11 conflict and moved towards the centre of Ilidza. The other day when I

12 broke into tears when my mother lived in Hrasnica, together with 95 per

13 cent of Muslims, he had been living there for 40 years, and they took her

14 to this centre in Sokolovic Kolonija and forced her several times to talk

15 to me, to criticise me, and tell me not to do what I was doing. They

16 manipulated a 70-year-old lady and then they returned her back to

17 Hrasnica, where there was a majority Muslim population. This was done by

18 the people who held Sokolovic Kolonija. We call them Sandzaklije. They

19 came from abroad. They were extremists. Unlike those who we referred to

20 as local Muslims and with whom we had been coexisting well.

21 Being irritated with this and with these constant attacks, I told

22 Tomo to do everything possible to prevent these people from coming to

23 Ilidza and taking control of it. That was my point.

24 Q. In that same passage of the intercept, you tell Mr. Kovac that you

25 were now going to Lukavica to instruct those who have them in close tabs,

Page 9019

1 to level them if anything moves in Ilidza.

2 Who were those who -- in Lukavica who had them in close tabs?

3 A. I mentioned here that that was the Territorial Defence or the

4 reserve military troops, in other words, those people were recruited for

5 the Army of Republika Srpska. There was a barracks in Lukavica called

6 Slavisa Vajner Cica, which was the headquarters of the Sarajevo Corps of

7 the former Yugoslav Army.

8 Q. And do you recall if indeed you proceeded to Lukavica and

9 instructed those in Lukavica with respect to Sokolovic Kolonija?

10 A. I don't believe that I went there to give instructions to the army

11 how to wage a war. I simply supported Tomo Kovac and I knew that these

12 telephone conversations were listened in, and in order to prevent an

13 attack on Ilidza by these extremists, as we saw them, and the Muslims from

14 abroad who attacked Tomo Kovac on a daily basis, and he was so irritated

15 that at one point he says: "Let this finish once and for all, and you can

16 see that the leader of the Patriotic League, Juka Prazina - which was a

17 paramilitary formation - was spotted near Ilidza. He was leading these

18 extremist Muslims who had come from other countries.

19 MR. STEWART: Okay, Your Honour, we've been having really animated

20 discussion here because --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We heard that.

22 MR. STEWART: We tried to work out what's happening. It is

23 sometimes extremely difficult for us to deal with this because there are

24 flaws apparently in the English translation of this, and the problem we

25 have is that that was in a question that Mr. Tieger asked at page 23, line

Page 9020

1 20. And I should say straight away that my -- the objection I made to an

2 earlier question doesn't apply here, because Mr. Tieger's question was

3 correctly, as far as it goes, based on the English text which he has in

4 front of him and which I have in front of me.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You want to draw our attention to the flaws in

6 the translation. Could you please --

7 MR. STEWART: Yes. It isn't absolutely straightforward,

8 Your Honour, because what is on the last page, it's -- Mr. Mandic saying,

9 an answer -- or a part of the conversation, it says: "Yes, Tomo. Please

10 tell me if anything happens.

11 And then --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps have this read by Ms. Cmeric and see

13 whether an oral translation at this moment results in anything else.

14 MR. STEWART: That's a helpful suggestion, I think, Your Honour,

15 because it is quite complicated, potentially, the translation issue.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Cmeric is invited to read the relevant

17 part, and that would be the fifth box from the bottom; is that correct?

18 MS. CMERIC: That's correct, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask the special attention of the

20 interpreters for the translation of this part of the transcript. Please

21 proceed, Ms. Cmeric.

22 MS. CMERIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 [As read] [Interpretation] "Momcilo MANDIC: Yes. Tomo, please

24 let me know if anything, and prepare this heavy artillery and that to

25 engage if there were any movements. This Sokolovic Kolonija should be

Page 9021

1 razed to the ground. Fuck their mother. Now I'll go now to Lukavica to

2 those people that they are keeping them in cross-hairs to level if there

3 was any movement in Ilidza."

4 JUDGE ORIE: The translation is slightly different from what we

5 see on paper.

6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour will see, and everybody's obviously

7 doing their best, Your Honour will see that that can't have been a

8 particularly easy sentence to translate, to interpret, the way it's ended

9 up. But the key point, as Your Honour indicates, is the verb in the

10 middle that's on the part of the verb that's missing. Well, it's not

11 missing. It's just not there.

12 JUDGE ORIE: There are some differences. Mr. Tieger, you may

13 proceed, but I'd rather take the, well, new translation as the valid one.

14 MR. TIEGER: I assumed that was the case, Your Honour. Thank you.

15 And I'll inquire accordingly.

16 Q. Mr. Mandic, I think you indicated in the course of your responses

17 that Mr. Kovac was concerned and upset when he spoke with you.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Let me ask you again: Did you go to Lukavica in response to the

20 information he provided or the concerns he expressed?

21 A. I don't remember, Mr. Prosecutor. I just said, Momo, as a matter

22 of preventive measure, if you come again under the attack from Juka

23 Prazina and I would try these people from Lukavica to defend Ilidza from

24 these extremists. This was a kind of pre-emptive action on my side,

25 because Tomo expressed concern that he would not be able to maintain

Page 9022

1 Ilidza in the condition that he had taken it originally in. I informed

2 him that I had ten men in the school in Vrace, and I went there on the 6th

3 of April and stayed there for about one month. That's a part situated

4 between Grbavica and Lukavica neighbourhoods.

5 Q. I understand that you indicated in the earlier part of your

6 comment to Mr. Kovac at the end of this conversation that you wanted to be

7 informed if anything happened, and also instructed him with respect to

8 heavy artillery. But both translations of the intercept indicate that you

9 said to Mr. Kovac that you will go now to Lukavica. So are you suggesting

10 that simply telling him that you would go to Lukavica, whether or not you

11 went, was in some way of assistance to him? In what way was simply

12 telling him that you were going to Lukavica be a preventive measure rather

13 than actually going and conveying the situation as he had related it to

14 you?

15 A. I don't recall going to Lukavica, but I did try to raise his

16 spirits, that he was not going to be abandoned if he comes under attack

17 from two or three sides, that I was going to assist him from Vojkovici,

18 Lukavica, wherever there were Serb forces, be it military, police, or

19 Crisis Staff forces. I tried to encourage him this way, because he said

20 he was unable to hold on on his own, that he had to defend Ilidza from

21 different sides, and that the major danger was posed by these extremists

22 from outside Bosnia-Herzegovina that were at Sokolovic Kolonija.

23 Q. Now, did the Bosnian Serbs also -- you've indicated now that there

24 were Muslims from outside Sarajevo who came into Sarajevo to assist in the

25 war effort against Serbs. Did the Bosnian Serbs have the assistance of

Page 9023

1 Serbs from outside Sarajevo, Serb radicals or Serb extremists from outside

2 Sarajevo, who came in to assist the Serbs against the Muslims?

3 A. Yes. During the war, there were Serbs coming from outside

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina to fight the war on the side with the Bosnian Serbs.

5 Q. Did that include the paramilitary forces of Arkan or Seselj?

6 A. Yes, and many others. There were several of these paramilitary

7 units, mostly from Serbia, though some were from Montenegro.

8 Q. For example, do you know who Legija was?

9 A. At the time of the war, I didn't know who Legija was. That was

10 not his name during the war. It was later on in Belgrade that I found out

11 who he was.

12 Q. And regardless of the name he went by at the time, did you know

13 with which forces he was associated or involved with?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you find out later with which forces he was engaged?

16 A. Legija was one of the commanders of Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan's

17 Panthers. Later on, I found out that he was one of his commanders, one of

18 his main people. That was later on, when I came to live in Belgrade, in

19 1993, that is, in December 1992.

20 Q. And was Legija and the forces under his control operating in

21 Sarajevo in 1992?

22 A. I don't know. I found this out from a document that you showed to

23 me in October, or was it in March last year? Legija used to be called

24 "Cema." His family name was Ulemek. The man seemed to change names

25 quite a lot.

Page 9024

1 Q. Did you know about -- you mentioned that, in a response to an

2 earlier question, that you also knew about Seselj's forces operating in

3 Sarajevo in -- let me ask you: Was that in 1992?

4 A. Whether it was 1992 or 1993, it was in the beginning of the war

5 that certain units arrived who presented themselves as radicals. Among

6 them was one man by the name of Aleksic, first name Slavko. He held the

7 positions at the Jewish cemetery in Sarajevo. This man was from Bileca,

8 from Bosnia and Herzegovina, but who used to live and work in Sarajevo.

9 Q. And did Seselj's forces and any other forces coming in from

10 outside Sarajevo to assist the Bosnian Serbs in their efforts against

11 Muslims work with and coordinate with local Bosnian Serb authorities?

12 A. I can't say that with precision, but I do think that some units

13 placed themselves under the command of the army and some under the command

14 of the police. Whether some of them operated independently through

15 municipal crisis staffs, I am not aware of that.

16 Q. Well, perhaps I could have you listen to an intercepted telephone

17 conversation from around that time and it might shed some additional light

18 on this very area.

19 MR. TIEGER: And that would be a telephone conversation of April

20 23rd, 1992 between Mr. Mandic and Mr. Kovac, marked ET 0322-0086. I'm

21 sorry. My apologies. That is still looking at the old exhibit. I'm

22 referring now and what should be marked next in order is a conversation of

23 21 April 1992 between Mr. Mandic and a gentleman named Igor. That is

24 marked ET 0324-9691.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P460 and P460A for the

Page 9025

1 transcript.

2 MR. TIEGER: Again, this is in the Sanction presentation mode, for

3 the benefit of the booth.

4 [Intercept played]

5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

6 Momcilo MANDIC: This is Momo. Who's calling?

7 Igor: Igor.

8 Momcilo MANDIC: Igor, what's up?

9 Igor: Fucked up. They are shelling us. Fuck it.

10 Momcilo MANDIC: Who is shelling you?

11 Igor: Fuck it. A mortar hit Pavilion 10 and then snipers ...

12 Fuck it.

13 Momcilo MANDIC: Tell me, there are some of Seselj's guys

14 encircled down at Palma. Can somebody help them? Send down some of our

15 Territorial Defence guys. Tell it there, pass a message to pull the

16 people out of there. Fuck it. Seselj has just called now from Belgrade.

17 Igor: Aha. Since then, isn't it?

18 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

19 Igor: I don't know, but I'll see to it with Karisik now.

20 Momcilo MANDIC: Tell Karo, is Mico down there?

21 Igor: No. Which Mico? Stanisic?

22 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

23 Igor: No, there is nobody.

24 Momcilo MANDIC: How come?

25 Igor: They are in the field. What do I know?

Page 9026

1 Momcilo MANDIC: Out there, are they?

2 Igor: Yes.

3 Momcilo MANDIC: Please, let them know, to make them stronger, if

4 nothing else. How far did our guys come?

5 Igor: They are retreating.

6 Momcilo MANDIC: They are retreating, are they?

7 Igor: That's the information I have, I'm telling you again.

8 Momcilo MANDIC: How far have they retreated?

9 Igor: What the fuck do I know? I don't know.

10 Momcilo MANDIC: Please, pass the message.

11 Igor: I'll see to it with Karisik.

12 Momcilo MANDIC: Just to pull out the people ...

13 Igor: Yes, yes, yes. Brno has also been wounded.

14 Momcilo MANDIC: Brno, has he?

15 Igor: As soon as he set forth, the bullet got him, you know?

16 Momcilo MANDIC: Aha.

17 Igor: There are no more than ten or eleven of them.

18 Momcilo MANDIC: What?

19 Igor: There are ten or eleven of them, not more.

20 Momcilo MANDIC: Good, five to ten people.

21 Igor: Fine, I'll see to it with Karisik. I'll tell me him that.

22 Momcilo MANDIC: Please, let it be seen. Don't, then, there.

23 Only these -- let Karisik be ready and let here -- fuck their mothers in

24 the mouth. Can't he raise the Elektroprivreda building to the ground with

25 those three-barrelled mortars from there.

Page 9027

1 Igor: They are shelling non-stop. Fuck it. But they have lots

2 of checkpoints. There is a Secondary Commercial School, Elektroprivreda,

3 Social Welfare, I don't know. They also seized the Secondary Commercial

4 School there, fuck it.

5 Momcilo MANDIC: Who?

6 Igor: The Green Berets.

7 Momcilo MANDIC: The Secondary Commercial School, did they?

8 Igor: Yes. Fuck it.

9 Momcilo MANDIC: Who planned it like that. Is he -- is here ...

10 Igor: They started it hastily, without a good assessment, without

11 anything. They were counting on around 300 people and 50 responded,

12 there.

13 Momcilo MANDIC: Son of a bitch. Tell me, Zlatiste, what's going

14 on with it? Has it been touched at all?

15 Igor: It hasn't been. Fuck. I said it there last night when we

16 talked like people, first you liberate Zlatiste, you have both for

17 assistance and for ... and for ... retreat, damn you. They are thinking

18 of take the hospital. All big ... son of a bitch.

19 Momcilo MANDIC: Right, please give a message to ... if it is

20 possible to finish that.

21 Igor: I'll see to it now ...

22 Momcilo MANDIC: That they don't stay in the encirclement.

23 Igor: Good.

24 Momcilo MANDIC: At Palma.

25 Igor: Right.

Page 9028


2 Q. Mr. Mandic, can you first tell us who Igor was?

3 A. I don't know who he is. There was one Igor Velasevic who was with

4 me at SUP Vrace. He was a member of SUP of Republika Srpska, if this is

5 indeed Igor Velasevic. But I do believe so. I'm not sure, though.

6 Q. You tell Igor in the early part of the conversation that -- to

7 "Send some of our Territorial Defence guys, tell it there -- pass a

8 message to pull the people out of there. Fuck it. Seselj has just called

9 now from Belgrade."

10 And was Seselj's call from Belgrade specifically referring to his

11 men in Sarajevo and their situation?

12 A. Well, this is what it's all about, Mr. Prosecutor. Pavilion 10

13 was under attack here. This was within the compound of the school for the

14 interior where the MUP and the special MUP forces were stationed. When we

15 advanced towards Vrace, that was on the 4th of April. On the right-hand

16 side, there's this Pavilion 10, which Igor mentions as having been

17 attacked. Seselj phoned some of the functionaries at Pale who informed

18 us, in turn, whether it was Mico Stanisic or some of the leading persons

19 in MUP, that a group of radicals from Sarajevo, these were Seselj's

20 radicals, who appeared -- who were ambushed at Palma pastry shop. I was

21 there with Karisik, who was a commander of a special MUP unit, and I was

22 discussing with him to try and deliver people from the encirclement there.

23 This is maybe -- this was one kilometre away as the crow flies. That is

24 the distance between the seat of the Serb MUP and this Palma

25 establishment. This area was encircled by an active unit belonging to the

Page 9029

1 Muslims, who wanted to drive or destroy the units encircled there at

2 Vrace.

3 Brno is one of these -- Seselj's radicals, Vojvodas, who lived in

4 Sarajevo. He was born either at Sokolac or at Pale, if that is the man.

5 I even know his family name. Gavrilovic, I think.

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I think this would be an appropriate

7 time to break, unless the Court has some questions.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We have no questions at this moment. But I would

9 like first to ask Madam Usher to escort Mr. Mandic and Mr. Tomic out of

10 the courtroom.

11 [The witness stands down]

12 [Witness's counsel withdrew]

13 JUDGE ORIE: I carefully analysed what happened and what caused

14 the irritation. Mr. Stewart, you took 26 seconds to explain to us that

15 Mr. Tieger was misstating the transcript, which he did; that -- you looked

16 that up. I would not expect anyone to say such a thing if he would not

17 have looked that up. That putting it wrongly and asking confirmation to a

18 witness is not the correct way of doing. That needs no explanation at

19 all, because that's a common understanding.

20 Then after 26 seconds, Mr. Tieger, who seemed to have become

21 impatient, which he preferably not should become, responded and said that

22 he would put the question, and then you responded, Mr. Stewart, by saying

23 that Mr. Tieger did not even know what you were about to say. And then

24 Mr. Tieger put a new question and then I don't know whether that was all

25 lost time or whether that were questions that would have been put anyhow.

Page 9030

1 Misstating a transcript of -- or an earlier testimony of a witness

2 is wrong. That needs no explanation whatsoever, and should be corrected

3 as soon as possible.

4 Mr. Tieger, if Mr. Stewart takes 26 seconds and has not yet

5 explained what he wants to say, apart from these generalities which are

6 common understanding, then becoming impatient usually does not serve a

7 smooth continuation of the questioning of the witness.

8 Therefore, what should have been done is that Mr. Stewart would,

9 and that would have taken him four or five seconds, to ask whether or not

10 through me, to invite Mr. Tieger to correctly state the transcript, to

11 correctly present the transcript. He then would have done so, I take it,

12 and then questions would have been asked.

13 Mr. Tieger, when Mr. Stewart took quite some time to explain to us

14 exactly what he wanted, sometimes it's better to give him five more

15 seconds, and that would have resolved the matter.

16 Then finally, Mr. Stewart, at the very end after the five

17 minutes -- I'm not blaming you for taking the time to -- saying that it

18 was totally unfair of me, but at least you took one and a half more

19 minutes to explain to us that it was misstating and that is incorrect, et

20 cetera.

21 Therefore, this is my analysis of the situation. I think I gave

22 the parties guidance as to how to behave under those circumstances. As a

23 general rule, if, in a question, there's any misstatement of either

24 testimony or statement or transcript of an intercept, you're invited to

25 ask for a literal quote, and asking for a literal quote means that you're

Page 9031

1 not satisfied with the way the transcript or the statement or the

2 intercept is presented by the other party. That's my guidance.

3 We'll adjourn until 11.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you escort the witness and

7 Mr. Tomic into the courtroom.

8 [Witness's counsel entered court]

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Your Honour, I'd like to move next to an intercepted telephone

13 conversation of July 10th, 1992, between Mr. Mandic and Ivo Rezo, and then

14 Mr. Mandic and Branko Kvesic. That is marked ET 0328-2468, and it

15 consists of five clips in the Sanction mode.

16 THE REGISTRAR: P461 and P461A for the transcript.

17 [Intercept played]

18 THE INTERPRETER: This doesn't seem to be the beginning of the

19 transcript.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could the Prosecution indicate where the interpreters

21 have to look in order to translate the portion played.

22 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. The first clip begins at the

23 bottom of page 3 of the English transcript.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Have the interpreters found that? Then could

25 we replay the relevant portion.

Page 9032

1 MR. TIEGER: You'll find it beginning at line 43.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I do not hear any translation. Apart from that,

3 Mr. Tieger, line 43 in the English is a bit problematic, because the line

4 numbering goes until 34.

5 MR. TIEGER: And as I understand it, the problem may have been

6 that when we restarted this clip it began in the middle of the clip rather

7 than at the beginning, and would have made it difficult for the

8 translators to follow if they were directed to the bottom of page 3.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I can imagine. So could we start -- could you

10 tell us exactly -- we now start at the bottom of page 3, line 34 or --?

11 MR. TIEGER: 43 on the line transcript. In any event, the line

12 that begins: "There's no sense to wage a war."

13 JUDGE ORIE: I can't find it.

14 MR. TIEGER: The sixth line up from the bottom.

15 MR. STEWART: Is it possible that Mr. Tieger has got different

16 line numbering from the rest of the world?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Must be. Mr. Tieger, our line numbering goes until

18 34 on each page.

19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that's quite right. There are -- it's

20 been formatted in two different ways. Looking at page 7, line 25 for the

21 beginning of this clip.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That makes now sense. Have the interpreters

23 found the relevant portion? Yes. Then could we restart, then, the

24 intercept to be played.

25 [Intercept played]

Page 9033

1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

2 THE INTERPRETER: Now the transcript is starting from the

3 beginning.

4 Ivo REZO: Hello.

5 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

6 Ivo REZO: Are you doing, gorgeous? I just wanted to call you.

7 Ivo REZO: Huh.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, before we reach page 7.

9 MR. TIEGER: It will be a long time before we get to page 7.

10 That's quite right.

11 Momcilo MANDIC: There is no sense to wage a war now, you know.

12 Branko KVESIC: No fucking way.

13 Momcilo MANDIC: Counts and national communities have already

14 taken everything that was supposed to be taken. I don't know. Sarajevo

15 is disputable. The area down there in Herzegovina and up there along the

16 Sava River. There is nothing else left.

17 Branko KVESIC: Yes.

18 Momcilo MANDIC: I think that we should not wage a war because of

19 it any more.

20 Branko KVESIC: We should fucking finish this as soon as possible.

21 Momcilo MANDIC: Our people are for it.

22 Branko KVESIC: Are they?

23 Momcilo MANDIC: I just don't know what to do with the Turks, fuck

24 it. Pay them 24 salaries and let them go, brother. There should be an

25 airlift established with Turkey and let them go and we should split Bosnia

Page 9034

1 in two parts.

2 Branko KVESIC: I told them that the only normal thing for them

3 would be to have a status of a nation if they accept to have counties. Do

4 you understand? Serbs Croats and Muslims could live in a single state of

5 Bosnia and Herzegovina divided in counties. It shouldn't be divided but

6 organised according to counties.

7 Momcilo MANDIC: Wait a minute. But they are a minority now, man.

8 Branko KVESIC: What?

9 Momcilo MANDIC: They are a minority now. Fuck.

10 Branko KVESIC: There is no way to build a unitary country, either

11 Serbian or Croatian any more.

12 Momcilo MANDIC: They are the smallest nation in number now.

13 Branko KVESIC: Yes. Either Muslim -- what parts of the town are

14 you controlling?

15 Momcilo MANDIC: It is mostly the left bank of the Miljacka River.

16 We don't control Alpasino, a part of Mojmilo, and Otoka only. Everything

17 else on this side from the Vrbanja bridge onwards is ours.

18 Branko KVESIC: Really?

19 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

20 Branko KVESIC: And the area up there to Elektroprivreda; right?

21 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

22 Branko KVESIC: Are you still there?

23 Momcilo MANDIC: Including Hrasno and Pere Kosorica Square down

24 there and everything else.

25 Branko KVESIC: Really?

Page 9035

1 Momcilo MANDIC: Up to the barracks Viktor Bubanj. Then they

2 control the area down there.

3 Branko KVESIC: Yes. I've noticed that Croats are leaving. They

4 have some kind of HVO, right?

5 Momcilo MANDIC: People say that many Croats have left.

6 Branko KVESIC: Yes. They let them go.

7 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

8 Branko KVESIC: All right. That's the right way to do. They

9 shouldn't create problems.

10 Momcilo MANDIC: Everything joins his people, his own people.

11 Branko KVESIC: Certainly.

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, for the benefit of the Court, counsel,

13 and the booth, clip 2 begins at page 10, approximately line 12 or 13.

14 Branko KVESIC: Well, I said to this man here ... someone has hung

15 up the phone right now.

16 Momcilo MANDIC: Munja.

17 Branko KVESIC: Who is recording this? You or ...?

18 Momcilo MANDIC: Munja. Fuck. He broadcasts everything that I

19 talk about on television and radio. Did you know it?

20 Branko KVESIC: Are you serious?

21 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

22 Branko KVESIC: You are kidding me.

23 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, he is really quick-witted.

24 Branko KVESIC: I can see how smart you are. You wrote it in

25 Latin script on one side and on the other side you wrote it in Cyrillic

Page 9036

1 script.

2 Momcilo MANDIC: We don't want to have a single nation state, man.

3 We want to have a democratic state where the Serbian people would be in

4 the majority.

5 Branko KVESIC: Yes.

6 Momcilo MANDIC: So Croats and Muslims would also have rights.

7 Excuse me, Croats and the rest of Muslims ... after we clean them out.

8 Branko KVESIC: All right. Tell me, what ... those prisoners.

9 Momcilo MANDIC: We set them all free, man. As far as the HVO is

10 concerned, we do not have any prisoners.

11 Branko KVESIC: But, they have.

12 Momcilo MANDIC: We have none here. It was agreed on a higher

13 level that no man of Croatian ethnicity should be detained.

14 Branko KVESIC: Yes.

15 Momcilo MANDIC: There is no one here. They all go over there,

16 towards Kiseljak immediately.

17 Branko KVESIC: All right. As for that area over there, it is so.

18 But tell me, what can you do over there ... There is a friend of yours who

19 told me about one of your ... What was his name? Hang on a minute. It

20 was some person, Madzarevic.

21 Momcilo MANDIC: Where is he from?

22 Branko KVESIC: Well, did you put in a request for him?

23 Momcilo MANDIC: It was probably some kind of intervention. It

24 was probably some intervention by my ...

25 Branko KVESIC: There are some of our men in Manjaca, man.

Page 9037

1 Momcilo MANDIC: In Krajina; right?

2 Branko KVESIC: Yes.

3 Momcilo MANDIC: We can do it.

4 Branko KVESIC: What can you do about it.

5 Momcilo MANDIC: A lot.

6 Branko KVESIC: Listen, fuck, let's find out ... Listen, it is

7 because of relations in general.

8 Momcilo MANDIC: Naturally, man.

9 Branko KVESIC: There is ...

10 Momcilo MANDIC: All right. I'll tell it to my main boss.

11 Branko KVESIC: Check it, please.

12 Momcilo MANDIC: Where are they placed?

13 Branko KVESIC: You know where I am?

14 Momcilo MANDIC: I know it, but where are they placed over there?

15 Branko KVESIC: They are placed somewhere on Manjaca.

16 Momcilo MANDIC: Over there in the military camp on Manjaca?

17 Branko KVESIC: Yes. There is Tole, Zrno, and the team of men who

18 were in Zarkovo with Tole and who were betrayed by Muslims.

19 Momcilo MANDIC: Aha.

20 Branko KVESIC: The TO betrayed them when those Chetniks picked

21 them up.

22 Momcilo MANDIC: I will tell him that today if he returns from

23 London. He should call and get it done because he's very much in the mood

24 for it.

25 MR. TIEGER: Clip 3 will begin at page 14, line 15 of the English

Page 9038

1 translation.

2 [Intercept played]

3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

4 Momcilo MANDIC: We are fighting for our people and our political

5 rights.

6 Branko KVESIC: Certainly.

7 Momcilo MANDIC: And for the right to self-determination.

8 Branko KVESIC: That's right. I always say that we should talk in

9 this way with everyone who can help terminate this conflict instead of

10 waging a war, to hell with it.

11 Momcilo MANDIC: Naturally, man. Do you know that 100.000 people

12 surely died in BH.

13 Branko KVESIC: Seriously?

14 Momcilo MANDIC: Well, yes, for sure.

15 Branko KVESIC: Fuck.

16 Momcilo MANDIC: They are hiding it over there, in Sarajevo, but

17 they have terrible losses.

18 Branko KVESIC: How many men have they lost in Sarajevo?

19 Momcilo MANDIC: Many, tens of thousands.

20 Branko KVESIC: You cannot be serious?

21 Momcilo MANDIC: They have many casualties. I swear to my life.

22 You know, they take them to a mosque and tell them: "You are martyrs now.

23 If you get killed, you will cross to the other world ... equally." It is

24 stupid.

25 Branko KVESIC: Who is there in the former ministry now?

Page 9039

1 MR. TIEGER: Clip 4 at page 15, line 31

2 [Intercept played]

3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

4 Momcilo MANDIC: Vito is ... I think that they offered him ...

5 Alija appointed him as assistant secretary in the department of trade.

6 Branko KVESIC: Yes.

7 Momcilo MANDIC: Can you imagine ... While they were losing and

8 now ... trade [sic].

9 Branko KVESIC: What? So, nothing. It means that he ... Nothing.

10 His wife lost the job and he lost the apartment over there.

11 Branko KVESIC: Really?

12 Momcilo MANDIC: Muslims expelled him from Stari Grad.

13 Branko KVESIC: What happened to him? He's a fool when ...

14 Momcilo MANDIC: You know, I told you then. You could figure out

15 everything then. He is really crazy. Well, Alija tricked him. A fool.

16 Branko KVESIC: Well, yes, you are right.

17 Momcilo MANDIC: He tricked him, a fool. He clung on to him for a

18 few tens of thousands of German marks.

19 Branko KVESIC: Well, yes. What can I tell you? When I take

20 everything into consideration, as you said, the problem was in him.

21 Momcilo MANDIC: In him only.

22 Branko KVESIC: You know, he was behaving so in order not to run

23 afoul of you or them, but one cannot ... Who can do it like that?

24 Momcilo MANDIC: Believe me, everyone who has the same last name

25 as he has in his birthplace, Sekovici, has no chance to survive. Do you

Page 9040

1 believe it.

2 Branko KVESIC: Seriously.

3 Momcilo MANDIC: I swear to my mother. People see it as betrayal.

4 Listen, you are to stick to your people. If they are mistaken, the entire

5 nation is mistaken.

6 Branko KVESIC: Well, yes, fuck, certainly, certainly.

7 Momcilo MANDIC: You always used to tell him: "I am Ustasha, if

8 so required. I follow my people. My people elected me. Fuck you."

9 Branko KVESIC: That's right. Naturally.

10 Momcilo MANDIC: And you were always right about it.

11 MR. TIEGER: And the fifth clip will begin at page 21,

12 approximately line 12.

13 [Intercept played]

14 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

15 Momcilo MANDIC: Come home, please. I am really for it. Our men

16 and children are getting killed for nothing and all ... I will talk with

17 the boss as soon as he returns from London and ask him to meet your boss.

18 Branko KVESIC: Yes.

19 Momcilo MANDIC: I have this telephone number. I will call you

20 and you will be in touch with our friend. We will arrange a meeting for

21 them somewhere in our territories, have them sit together and get it

22 finished, damn it. It concerns these two nations. As soon as they make

23 an agreement, the third nation will also have to ... You know.

24 Branko KVESIC: Then there should be contacts established on

25 levels of police forces and many other organs.

Page 9041

1 Momcilo MANDIC: The police and the army, and cooperation ...

2 Without borders ...

3 Branko KVESIC: There are many things. We cannot live like this,

4 man. We won't be at war for a hundred fucking years.

5 Momcilo MANDIC: I was for such solution from the very beginning,

6 believe me. I was not for a unitary country, but I am for cooperation and

7 for that ...

8 Branko KVESIC: Listen, probably ... Please, check that thing for

9 me over there on Manjaca.

10 Momcilo MANDIC: I'll do it right away.

11 Branko KVESIC: Tole and ...

12 Momcilo MANDIC: I'll do it on Monday or Tuesday. I cannot do it

13 any earlier.

14 Branko KVESIC: All right.

15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note that they cannot say when

16 the tape was stopped and where the transcript was actually -- until what

17 point should it be read.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, could you quite the interpreters what --

19 where the portion ended.

20 MR. TIEGER: I believe the clip ended at the top of page 22, at

21 approximately line 3.

22 JUDGE ORIE: "I'll do it right away"? That's -- no, I'm looking

23 at the right page.

24 Have the interpreters read the -- let me just see. Yes. As a

25 matter of fact, you read a few lines more, I think one -- two times Kvesic

Page 9042

1 and one time Mandic are too much in the transcript. So it stops at page

2 45, line 21: "I'll do it right away."

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Mandic, can we begin by having you simply identify the persons

6 to whom you're speaking in the intercept.

7 A. Branko Kvesic, formerly the under-secretary State Security joint

8 MUP Bosnia-Herzegovina; Ivo Rezo former chief of the crime department of

9 the Sarajevo SUP; and myself.

10 Q. And how long had you known Mr. Rezo and Mr. Kvesic?

11 A. I've known Ivo Rezo since we were 15, 16 years of age. I attended

12 the police academy together with him. And I got to know Kvesic when he

13 became under-secretary for state security and I became inspector for the

14 crime department in 1991.

15 Q. What was their nationality?

16 A. Croats, Catholics.

17 Q. And where were they at the time you were having the conversation

18 on April -- on July 10th?

19 A. I think they were on the premises of the district court in

20 Sarajevo, in the Butmir neighbourhood at Kula. I believe so. I'm not

21 sure.

22 Q. Let me direct your attention to a part of the conversation that

23 was played in the first clip portion we heard, and that's toward the

24 bottom of page 7 of the English translation, where you say: "There's no

25 sense to wage a war now, you know." Kvesic says: "No fucking way," and

Page 9043

1 you say, "Counties and national communities have already taken everything

2 that was supposed to be taken. I don't know. Sarajevo is disputable, the

3 area down there and Herzegovina and up there along the Sava River.

4 There's nothing else left."

5 Was that your assessment of status of the conflict at that point,

6 in early July 1992?

7 A. I was merely conveying the position of the state leadership of

8 Republika Srpska.

9 Q. And again, when you say you were conveying the position of the

10 state leadership of Republika Srpska, who in particular are you referring

11 to?

12 A. The president of the state, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

13 Q. Is that Mr. Karadzic's sole view of the status of events at that

14 point or did other members of the state leadership feel the same way?

15 A. I think that the others shared the same view.

16 Q. Was there any member of the leadership, as you have previously

17 identified them, who felt otherwise?

18 A. I don't recall.

19 Q. Now, you continue at that part of your conversation with

20 Mr. Kvesic by -- well, he states to you: "We should fucking finish this

21 as soon as possible." You say: "Our people are for it." Again, are you

22 referring -- when you say "Our people are for it," are you referring to

23 the state leadership, are you referring to the people generally? What did

24 you mean by that?

25 A. I meant the people.

Page 9044

1 Q. And then Kvesic says: "Are they?" And you say: "I just don't

2 know what to do with the Turks. Fuck it. Pay them 24 salaries and let

3 them go, brother. There should be an airlift established with Turkey and

4 let them go. And we should split Bosnia in two parts."

5 A. Would you like to hear my comment?

6 Q. Well, let me ask you a couple of questions first and then I'll

7 certainly invite your comment.

8 First of all, you -- when you say "we should split Bosnia in two

9 parts," to whom or to which groups would those parts go?

10 A. That was one of the political decisions that I knew of, as a

11 member of the MUP. The agreement was reached between Mr. Milosevic and

12 Mr. Tudjman in order to divide Bosnia. That was more of a friendly chat

13 with Kvesic Branko that I had, and he was inquiring about some friends

14 that were imprisoned in a military camp in Krajina somewhere. However, I

15 maintained very good relationships with all leaders of all ethnicities,

16 and I attempted to pull out these four men from a military camp in

17 Krajina. And since I knew that this telephone conversation was taped, we

18 had some five or six telephone lines, we were a little bit cynical and

19 talked about the situation in Bosnia from both Croatian and Serbian

20 perspectives.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, the question was: To whom or to which

22 group would those parts go? You gave a lengthy answer, but it's still

23 unclear. Would that be Serbs and Croats? Since you're referring to

24 agreement -- or at least a -- you're referring to a -- yes, an agreement

25 between Mr. Milosevic and Mr. Tudjman.

Page 9045

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you very much focus on the question and

3 then answer them.

4 MR. TIEGER: [Microphone not activated]

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

6 MR. TIEGER: Sorry.

7 Q. I just wanted to direct your attention to the same question the

8 Judge was asking. To whom or to which groups would those parts go?

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness answered that question,

10 Mr. Tieger. I asked him whether these would be the Serbs and the Croats

11 and he said yes. Please proceed.


13 Q. Now, Mr. Mandic, you indicated in the course of your answer just

14 now that at least part of the conversation was about Kvesic's concern and

15 inquiry about some friends who were imprisoned in Manjaca camp in the

16 Krajina. And he sought assistance in obtaining their release from you,

17 and you indicated that you would help him; is that right?

18 A. Yes. And I told him precisely that once the president of the

19 state returned from London, I would try to arrange this with him, because

20 that was a military camp in Krajina.

21 Q. And in that kind of situation, who would you ask to effect the

22 release of the people in Manjaca camp about whom Kvesic was concerned?

23 A. I said in the transcript, and I always mentioned that

24 Mr. Karadzic, the president of Republika Srpska, would be the one, and I

25 think that at the time he was in some negotiations taking place in London.

Page 9046

1 Q. Was Dr. Karadzic the only person to whom you could go to

2 influence -- well, first of all let me ask you: Was Manjaca camp

3 controlled by the army, to your knowledge, at that time?

4 A. Yes, it was. And that's what I said in the transcript. It was a

5 military camp.

6 Q. Was Dr. Karadzic the only person to whom you could go to effect or

7 influence potential release of these people?

8 A. Yes, he was.

9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, in accordance with earlier instructions,

10 I'm going to turn to a portion of one of the earlier interviews, and that

11 is found at page -- page 14 of the interview conducted on October 1st.

12 Q. Mr. Mandic, do you recall that you had an opportunity to hear this

13 particular intercepted telephone conversation when you spoke with

14 representatives of the OTP on October 1st of this year?

15 A. I don't know. I didn't get -- can you please tell me what are you

16 referring to? I don't have any transcript.

17 Q. Well, first of all, do you recall hearing this particular

18 intercepted telephone conversation before today?

19 A. I'm sorry. I don't have this transcript before me. This is my

20 interview, what I got.

21 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you have any recollection on

22 hearing this intercept.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With Branko Kvesic, you mean?


25 Q. Yes.

Page 9047

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. Now, let me direct your attention to page 17 of the transcript,

3 the B/C/S transcript, of the October 1st interview, page 14 of the English

4 translation.

5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the witness apparently has a B/C/S

6 transcript of this interview now, but we don't.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any spare copy?

8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, when I say we don't I don't mean we've

9 mislaid our copy; I mean we've never had one until this moment.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

11 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry for that oversight, Your Honour. I thought

12 that had been the case, and I apologise that it had not been -- I will

13 mention, however - sorry, Your Honour - that it's only recently been

14 completed.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stewart, when you received the English

16 version, I take it you noticed that there was no B/C/S version. You asked

17 for it?

18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we very -- we understand it's only

19 recently been produced. We have very explicitly asked for it. It's --

20 that's only the point.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. No. So the answer is yes.

22 Then let's see what comes up before the witness answers the

23 question. The Defence will have an opportunity to tell the Court whether

24 they think that not having the B/C/S version available has such

25 consequences that the questions should not be put to the witness.

Page 9048

1 Please proceed.


3 Q. Now, Mr. Mandic, in this portion of the interview, you can see

4 that there's reference to the conclusion of that tape. You're asked

5 whether you recognise any of the participants. And you mention Mr. Kvesic

6 and Mr. Rezo. And then -- and yourself. You confirm that. And then you

7 indicate that: "Yes. We are mainly commenting on the war and Kvesic was

8 kind of wondering about our former colleagues, where are they and what are

9 they doing now and so on. ... Commenting the war and current state and so

10 on, proposals to end the war and to stop the war. Three Croat men who

11 were captured in Krajina, near Manjaca somewhere, so he asked me if I

12 could help somehow to get these people out of there."

13 Let me stop for a moment and say -- and ask if you now recall

14 discussing this particular intercept that was just played in court during

15 the interview of October 1st.

16 A. Yes, I do.

17 Q. And then you continue: "So I promised that I would ask my boss,

18 either military boss or civil boss, to see if he can do something about

19 those three people. That's ... these are the main things." And then you

20 were asked: "Thank you. And who would you have asked?" And your answer

21 was: "Karadzic, Mladic, or Krajisnik."

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it now you'll put a question, Mr.

23 Tieger, and then I'll give an opportunity to the Defence to see whether

24 there's any problem.


Page 9049

1 Q. Was that an accurate reflection of your answer on October 1st and

2 was that a truthful answer?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, the witness is nodding already,

4 Mr. Stewart.

5 A. Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I tried to give you an opportunity before the

7 question was answered, but ...

8 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour we're not -- so far as Mr. Tieger

9 asking questions is concerned, we're not disadvantaged by not having the

10 B/C/S transcript. It was obviously important that Mr. Krajisnik [Realtime

11 transcript read in error: "Mr. Tieger"] particularly should have it, so he

12 could follow the matter.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. But that goes without saying.

14 Sometimes you would need perhaps Mr. Krajisnik to have it read -- in order

15 to be better able to instruct you.

16 But if it's no problem, let's proceed. But that goes without

17 saying, I think I said; that goes not without saying.

18 MR. STEWART: Yes. Also, Your Honour, at line -- page 53, line

19 21, the transcript has inserted Mr. Tieger instead of Mr. Krajisnik.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's not confuse the counsel for the

21 Prosecution and Mr. Krajisnik please proceed.


23 Q. Mr. Mandic, if I could return to the earlier part of the

24 conversation for a moment. We had been discussing a portion in the first

25 clip portion that was played during which you were talking to Mr. Kvesic

Page 9050

1 and you said: "I just don't know what to do with the Turks. Fuck it.

2 Pay them 24 salaries and let them go, brother. There should be an airlift

3 established with Turkey and let them go and we should split Bosnia in two

4 parts."

5 If we move on farther down to the next page of the English

6 translation, that's page 9, after you and Mr. Kvesic discuss the

7 Elektroprivreda distribution company, the Viktor Bubanj barracks, then

8 Mr. Kvesic says to you: "All right. That's the right way to do it. They

9 shouldn't create problems." You say, "Everyone joins his/her own people,"

10 and Mr. Kvesic says, "Certainly."

11 Can you explain to the Court what was meant by your comments about

12 splitting Bosnia in two parts that there should be an airlift and the

13 Turks should be let go and everyone joining his or her own people.

14 A. Just a while ago, I tried to explain that those were political

15 positions taken by the Croat and the Serbian political leaders

16 respectively. When I say the Serbian leaders, that was mainly subscribed

17 to by the Serbian leader, Slobodan Milosevic and other leaders. On the

18 Croatian side, that attitude was rather recognisable on the part of

19 Tudjman, Mate Boban, and other Croatian leaders. As for 24 salaries and

20 an airlift to Turkey, these were just jokes and jests addressed on account

21 of Muslims because we knew that they had to by the Serbian leader,

22 Slobodan Milosevic and other leaders. On the Croatian side, that attitude

23 was rather recognisable on the part of Tudjman, Mate Boban, and other

24 Croatian leaders. As for 24 salaries and an airlift to Turkey, these were

25 just jokes and jests addressed on account of Muslims because we knew that

Page 9051

1 they had been listening to our conversations because they derogatorily

2 referred to us to highlanders and forest people and people who had

3 intercourses with animals and things like that. So this was a kind of

4 propaganda war and we wanted to pay back to those people who listen today

5 our conversations, even play them on TV and who used derogatory terms when

6 speaking about us.

7 Q. Well, I appreciate that your comments about paying salaries and

8 organising an airlift were not meant to be taken literally. Let me ask

9 you, however, if those were a reflection of the general view, as you -- as

10 it is expressed on page 9 of the English translation, that everyone should

11 join his or her own people.

12 A. Concerning the territories, that was a political position to open

13 all roads and corridors, and the portions of the peoples who had lived

14 under the control, both militarily and police-wise, by another people,

15 should be allowed to leave and go to the territories where their own

16 people had control. That was the crux of my statement. For instance, if

17 the Croats of Sarajevo left en masse in Sarajevo because they didn't want

18 to stay in the Muslim-controlled territories or where Serbs were the

19 majority. So the Croats demanded either to go to Croatia or to the

20 eastern Herzegovina, and that was my intention for them to open the roads

21 and let them go.

22 Since I think that about 16 or 17 per cent were Croats in

23 Sarajevo, people didn't want to stay there, they left the town, either to

24 join their families or acquaintances and friends either in Croatia or in

25 Herzegovina.

Page 9052

1 You know, Mr. Prosecutor, as far as I knew, there was practice in

2 Sarajevo to ban exit for certain categories of people, whether it be

3 children or women or others and to prevent their movement so that Alija

4 Izetbegovic could simulate that he had a multi-ethnic state or

5 multi-religious, as he used to call it. And all three peoples were fully

6 aware of that.

7 Q. Can I direct your attention to a portion of the conversation which

8 was played in the second clip. That's found at -- it begins at the bottom

9 of page 10 of the English translation and continues on to page 11. That's

10 after you mention that Munja was broadcasting everything that you talk

11 about. Do you see that part of the conversation. Mr. Kvesic says, "I can

12 see how smart you are. You wrote it in Latin script and on the other side

13 you wrote it in Cyrillic script." You then said, "We don't want to have a

14 single nation state, man. We want to have a democratic state where the

15 Serbian people would be in the majority". Mr. Kvesic says, "Yes." And

16 you say, "So Croats and Muslims would also have rights. Excuse me,

17 Croats, and the rest of the Muslims after we clean them out."

18 What did you mean by that, Mr. Mandic?

19 A. Munir Alibabic is a colleague of mine from the MUP of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina who used [as interpreted] for the State Security

21 Service at wire-tapping devices. All these conversations that we are

22 listening to now were recorded by him, and as far as I know, he used to

23 play them, but he used to also twist them, edit them. That was part of

24 the propaganda war. I responded to Kvesic by being cynical and by trying

25 to belittle him and accuse him of twisting things. So in that context, I

Page 9053

1 said that in certain territories where Muslims were in the majority who

2 were otherwise a majority in Bosnia, but that I was never against having a

3 multi-ethnic state, and what I believed, that's what I said, that people

4 should live where they want to live. And that was in the context of

5 relations between the Croats and the Serbs.

6 Q. Now, you mentioned in an earlier response the political positions

7 of Mr. Tudjman and Mr. Milosevic, and then mentioned Mr. Boban in

8 connection with that. Were talks or negotiations organised between Serbs

9 and Croats about the possibility of dividing Bosnia between those two

10 ethnic groups?

11 A. As far as I know, before the war and during the war -- there were

12 negotiations before the war, but I don't know about during the war. There

13 were negotiations between Radovan Karadzic and Mate Boban, but what they

14 discussed and in what manner, I really don't know.

15 Q. And do you know who organised those talks?

16 A. I think that these talks took place either in Mostar or in Konjic

17 before the war, and I think that Branko Kvesic was the one who was the

18 main organiser.

19 Q. And do you know which members of the leadership were involved,

20 leadership, either the Croatian leadership or the Bosnian Serb leadership

21 involved in organising those negotiations or talks?

22 A. No, I don't. I cannot remember. I don't even think that I knew

23 about that, because that was either in early 1991 or beginning of 1992.

24 Therefore, I cannot remember who specifically was behind this. You know,

25 Mr. Prosecutor, in Bosnia, everybody talked to everyone, and everyone

Page 9054

1 fought everyone. So everyone was against everyone. I can give you an

2 example. In Sarajevo, where I lived, the Croats and the Serbs did not

3 fight. Kiseljak and -- did not -- Stup did not fight the Serb-controlled

4 locations. But there was a fierce fighting in Herzegovina, Mostar,

5 Capljina, in the valley of Neretva, between the Croats and the Serbs.

6 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm going to turn the witness's -- or

7 direct the witness's attention once again to a portion of the transcript

8 of the October 1st interview. This is found at page 9, lines -- I have it

9 at page 9, lines 33 through 43.

10 MR. STEWART: We don't have line numbering, Your Honour. That

11 won't matter too much as long the pages coincide. If we can be given the

12 point.

13 MR. TIEGER: Page 9 of your version and everyone else's should

14 begin with the words "Deutschmarks."

15 MR. STEWART: Yes, it does.

16 MR. TIEGER: Okay. And I'm talking about a portion that's the

17 last -- essentially the last two questions and answers on that page.

18 Q. Mr. Mandic, if I could direct your attention to page 11 of the

19 transcript before you in B/C/S, and that would be the third paragraph from

20 the top of that page. You state: "Mate Boban and it says unintelligible

21 in the English had talks, negotiations at that time, but on political

22 level. But we knew that they were going on so ... They were talking about

23 dividing Bosnia, about dividing Bosnia between Serbs and Croats, but there

24 was nothing," unintelligible word, "stage who is dividing Bosnia," another

25 unintelligible word or words, "so dividing Bosnia in Serbian and Croatian

Page 9055

1 part. The talks between the Serbs and Croats organised by Tudjman and

2 Mate Boban on one side and Karadzic, Krajisnik, and Milosevic on the other

3 side."

4 Mr. Mandic, is that an accurate reflection of your -- of what you

5 said in the interview of October 1st and was that a truthful statement?

6 A. Yes.

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we -- could I just say, we understand

8 it seems to be a problem throughout some of these documents that items

9 which are described as unintelligible in the English transcript are not

10 indicated in that way in the B/C/S transcript. So we have the words

11 actually there on occasions in the B/C/S transcript and those --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Could I --

13 MR. STEWART: -- the English are unintelligible.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could I invite Ms. Cmeric to read the specific part,

15 just put to the witness starting with Mate Boban and so that if you read

16 slowly, that the interpreters could translate that so we catch up the

17 missing words.

18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may just to understand the process.

19 I think our transcribers have listened to it in both languages, the

20 English translation and the B/C/S, so it doesn't necessarily reflect the

21 fact that the same -- the person listening should have heard what the

22 other person heard.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But at least if we have two sources, English

24 and B/C/S, let's try to get as complete a picture as possible.

25 MR. STEWART: Can I say, Your Honour, should -- I should add, the

Page 9056

1 problem exists the other way around as well. Whatever the process, the

2 result is that each way around, sometimes something is marked as

3 unintelligible in one language where in the transcript of the other

4 language it's there in black and white.

5 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any need to fill in the gaps we could do

6 it in the way as we do it. If the gap is in the B/C/S version we could

7 read the English and then fill in the B/C/S. If the gap is in the English,

8 then we could read the B/C/S version. Please, Ms. Cmeric, I'm not a

9 master of your activities, but if you'd be -- please be so kind to read

10 the part just mentioned.

11 MS. CMERIC: By all means, Your Honour. [Interpretation]"Momcilo

12 Mandic: Well, there were at the time negotiations between political

13 leaders. It was that one there Mate Boban, Radovan, and, well, those

14 were ... And we were (unintelligible). We knew of those negotiations

15 about the division of Bosnia and Herzegovina, probably between Croatia,

16 between Croatia and between the Croats and the Serbs. That is to say,

17 between Croatia and Serbia from Bosnia and Herzegovina. How shall I put

18 it? (He talks to someone else while the interpreter interprets what he

19 has just said.) Into a Serbian and a Croatian part, between the Serbs and

20 the Croats. There. Which was discussed on the one hand by Mate Boban and

21 Franjo Tudjman and, on the other, by Radovan, Momo, Slobodan, and

22 suchlike."

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There seem to be quite some differences in the

24 translation. Perhaps, Mr. Tieger, it should be verified in a bit more

25 detail. Because if you're discussing something, that's not the same as

Page 9057

1 organising something, for example. And I noticed such differences and

2 that's not the only one. Let's proceed on the basis of the double source

3 we have now, but perhaps more attention should be paid to the translation

4 of -- or at least the two versions of the interviews. Please proceed.

5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, this is -- I should make it clear. This

6 is a general problem. Ms. Cmeric has done a certain amount of work on

7 this particular document and has drawn attention to sample difficulties a

8 day or so ago to the Prosecution. It isn't really just a question of when

9 we come to a specific point; then, of course, we can deal with this in

10 this specific way, though the results, as Your Honour implied a moment

11 ago, the results do produce something really quite different here. But

12 it's a general problem throughout this particular transcript.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This interview is not in evidence. You're just

14 now putting portions to it [sic] to the witness. The parties are invited

15 to see whether the differences in the two versions are such that it would

16 need further attention in this courtroom.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


19 Q. Let's turn next, then, to an intercepted telephone conversation

20 between Mr. Mandic and Mr. Mucibabic on May 26th of 1992. That's ERN ET

21 0324-9798. That will be in Sanction. I'm just going to play a portion of

22 that, Your Honour. And then we'll ask questions generally from the

23 transcript.

24 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Prosecution Exhibit P462 and P462A

25 for the transcript.

Page 9058

1 JUDGE ORIE: Where do we start, Mr. Tieger?

2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, this is not a clip. We're just going to

3 start at the beginning and then I'll ask for it to be halted at some

4 point.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then start.

6 [Intercept played]

7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

8 Unidentified female: Yes?

9 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Hello.

10 Unidentified female: Yes?

11 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Hello.

12 Unidentified female: Yes?

13 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Good afternoon.

14 Unidentified female: Good afternoon.

15 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Is Momo there?

16 Unidentified female: Is this you, Neretva?

17 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Yes, it is.

18 Unidentified female: He's here. One moment, please.

19 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Hello.

20 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, hello.

21 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Hello.

22 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes.

23 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Hello.

24 Momcilo MANDIC: Hello. Yes, can I help you?

25 Milanko MUCIBABIC: I wanted to speak to Momo.

Page 9059

1 Momcilo MANDIC: Hey, Milanko Mucibabic, where the fuck have you

2 been?

3 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Hi there, you fucking minister.

4 Momcilo MANDIC: Where have you been you manager, you manager from

5 Ilijas?

6 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Damn it, old man!

7 Momcilo MANDIC: You're no longer from Sarajevo, right? You're

8 from fucking Ilijas now, right?

9 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Huh.

10 Momcilo MANDIC: You're from Ilijas now, not from Sarajevo.

11 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Old man, it seems I am -- are changing.

12 Momcilo MANDIC: [laughing].

13 Milanko MUCIBABIC: I up, I down.

14 Momcilo MANDIC: Do you know what they call Sarajevo now?

15 Milanko MUCIBABIC: What?

16 Momcilo MANDIC: Pod Pale.

17 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Fuck off.

18 Momcilo MANDIC: [laughing].

19 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Well, my man, how are you?

20 Momcilo MANDIC: Well, I'm fucking all right.

21 Milanko MUCIBABIC: You're alive and well?

22 Momcilo MANDIC: I am. What's new in Ilijas? How are things?

23 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Well, it's tense. The whole fucking time, old

24 pal. We responded once and we had 11 dead but they say that there were 80

25 people dead in Visoko. They had a multiple rocket launcher and we fired

Page 9060

1 about 40 shells on them. And now, old pal, since that army has left from

2 around Zenica they have been grouping, god-damn it. It seems that the

3 people are coming here.

4 Momcilo MANDIC: The Turks from Zenica, right?

5 Milanko MUCIBABIC: I-- Here's a fucking report. They checked the

6 buses in Breza. About eight buses and some trucks arrived. We've made a

7 calculation based on the buses and it seems that about a thousand people

8 have arrived in Breza. Do you know what that means?

9 Momcilo MANDIC: Yes, I do.

10 Milanko MUCIBABIC: It's a problem. We have the artillery but, my

11 god, they've spawned a lot of infantry.

12 Momcilo MANDIC: Yeah. Well, they have fucking nowhere to go.

13 What can they do? And they're hungry.

14 Milanko MUCIBABIC: Old pal. That's where the breaking point will

15 be.


17 Q. Mr. Mandic, again this is not the first time you've had an

18 opportunity to listen to this telephone conversation.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who is Mr. Mucibabic?

21 A. Mucibabic was -- is my long-time friend who was the manager of the

22 sawmill in Ilijas. That was actually a wood processing factory.

23 Q. His ethnicity?

24 A. A Serb.

25 Q. And where was he during the time this -- what did you understand

Page 9061

1 him to be during the time this telephone conversation was taking place?

2 A. He was in Ilijas. Prior to that, he used to live in Sarajevo. At

3 the beginning of the war, he -- actually the moment the war broke out, he

4 was working and he was away from Sarajevo and unable to return there.

5 That's why I joked at his expense that he was now a citizen of Ilijas and

6 not of Sarajevo any longer.

7 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to certain parts of the

8 conversation. First, on page 3 of the English transcript, just shortly

9 after -- I think the portion of the transcript we heard ended roughly

10 where you say: "Yeah. Well, they have fucking nowhere to go, what can

11 they do? And ... they're hungry."

12 Mr. Mucibabic says: "Old pal, that's where the breaking point

13 will be. And ... this ... if this starts ... it stinks in the streets

14 like ... like, like, like ... what's the name ... under." And you say,

15 "Yes, yes." He asks you, "Tell me, how are you? Seselj told me that" -

16 Seso - "told me that you wanted to come and I was in Vogosca, but you

17 didn't ... and so..." And you say, "Well, Krajisnik called me up there so

18 I ... Slobodan Avlijas but I will come one of these days, I must. I'll

19 fly over this week."

20 What did that portion of the conversation refer to, Mr. Mandic?

21 Who wanted you to come, and for what purpose? And why were you unable to

22 do so?

23 A. We were long-time friends and we merely had to meet to see each

24 other, and nothing more. In this particular conversation, his father had

25 been sick and he had taken him over to Pale to undergo a surgery. And

Page 9062

1 since we did not meet over there at Pale, I promised to come to Ilijas,

2 which is some 40 to 50 kilometres away from Sarajevo -- taking a

3 roundabout road, maybe even more -- and having been long-time friends we

4 merely had this chat; nothing more.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger has this part been played to the witness

6 because it -- in the English translation it stops after "Old pal, that's

7 where the breaking point will be." So what follows then is at least not

8 translated by -- but if the parties have no problem to extend this portion

9 of the transcript to a few lines lower then ...

10 MR. TIEGER: First of all--


12 MR. TIEGER: I tried to indicate that the portion to which I'd

13 been directing Mr. Mandic's attention occurred, as I understood it, after

14 that portion that was played in court. And I'm -- and I also indicated I

15 intended to ask Mr. Mandic questions about portions that would not be

16 played because this has -- he has had an opportunity to hear the entire

17 transcript before. If there's a problem with that, we can --

18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I don't think we have a problem with

19 that. We're just puzzled as to what the policy is behind the selection of

20 what gets played and what doesn't get played.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, perhaps the parties could discuss that at

22 another time. But of course we now have a situation where you're

23 referring to those parts not played.

24 MR. TIEGER: Yes. I have no problem playing it, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: No since the Defence has no problem, I just wondered

Page 9063

1 what happened. Please proceed.


3 Q. Mr. Mandic, you indicate to Mr. Mucibabic that, as I understand it

4 from the transcript, that you were unable to visit him, that you wanted to

5 come but couldn't, and you explained, well, Krajisnik called me up there,

6 so --

7 Do you recall for what purpose Mr. Krajisnik called you, first of

8 all?

9 A. I mentioned Slobodan Avlijas's name here. He was an assistant of

10 mine and later to become the chairman of the State Commission that toured

11 the camps and detention facilities in Republika Srpska, and it must be an

12 issue that was related to him, since I mentioned Slobodan Avlijas's name.

13 Q. And when you say Krajisnik called me up there, where would that

14 be?

15 A. Up at Pale, where the seat of the Assembly was. And Mr. Krajisnik

16 was based there.

17 Q. Now, I want to direct your attention to a portion of the

18 conversation that takes place somewhat later on. It's found at page 8 of

19 the English transcript and that will be found approximately at the middle

20 of the page. Mr. Mandic, that takes place after, as you're looking

21 through the transcript, there is a discussion, a fairly long discussion,

22 about someone named Babic. You'll see the names on the page Babic,

23 Kalinic, Guzva, Kezunovic. If you pass that, there's a quick reference to

24 Buljakov Potok. There's a reference to Kuso and an incident with him.

25 Going past that. And there's mention of your listening to the radio and

Page 9064

1 hearing something about Mladic and yourself and General Boskovic. Then

2 the portion of the transcript I'm referring to takes place on the page in

3 English after that, a short discussion about Slobodan Avlijas. And then

4 you say to Mr. Mucibabic: "Well, we're only waiting for Lisbon, old man,

5 and for these military school students to finish the whole thing. No,

6 there will surely be a war. War is an option. No other way out."

7 Mr. Mucibabic says: "Yes. It's the war option now." And you say:

8 "First of all, we should settle the Sarajevo problem through war and then

9 sit down to talk."

10 How was the Sarajevo problem to be settled through war? What was

11 the objective of the war option in Sarajevo?

12 A. I don't know what the war objective or the war option with

13 Sarajevo was. Probably to divide Sarajevo along the Miljacka River, the

14 left bank would be the Serbian one and the right bank Muslim. At least

15 that's how I understand it. And we mentioned Lisbon here, that is, the

16 Cutileiro plan, where an agreement was reached by all the three peoples

17 from Bosnia-Herzegovina concerning cantons and the division of Bosnia

18 along ethnic lines, and -- on the basis of cantons, therefore, where there

19 would be ethnic police and the army, depending on the majority people in a

20 particular area.

21 Later on, Izetbegovic gave up this Cutileiro plan, the plan that

22 was forged by mediator Cutileiro and ambassador of Portugal.

23 Q. Did you understand the ethnic division of Sarajevo to be the

24 objective of the Bosnian Serb leadership?

25 A. I understood -- well, this is an off-the-record conversation

Page 9065

1 between oldtime friends. We basically presented our views here rather

2 than the views of the political leadership. Of course, having heard the

3 views of my political leadership, I presented also my views.

4 General Boskovic is mentioned here because the school of the recruits that

5 was within the Marsal Tito barracks was encircled. It's quite known a

6 story that later on 32 young recruits on their way out of the barracks

7 were killed when they were in a column. This was the 6 November Barracks.

8 Q. Did you express to Mr. Mucibabic during this conversation the

9 attitude of Serb leaders toward Sarajevo?

10 A. Mr. Prosecutor, Milanko Mucibabic was a civilian, a manager of a

11 sawmill. We were long-time friends, talking about our -- exchange our

12 personal views and the atmosphere. We mentioned at least a dozen people

13 who were our common friends, judo sportsmen, Brane, Kusic, Marko -- Babic

14 is actually Dr. Babic, a medical doctor, a urologist, who performed

15 operation at the clinical centre at Pale. He operated on Mucibabic's

16 father. He had a prostate operation. These were our private

17 conversations between people who had known themselves for 30 years. He

18 explained to me, and this was a fact at the time, that Ilijas was

19 encircled. As far as the Sarajevo region is concerned, it was in this

20 area that most people killed [as interpreted] and the fiercest fighting

21 took place.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, would you please concentrate on the

23 question. In your previous answer you said that you -- that this was an

24 off-the-record conversation between old-time friends and that you

25 basically presented your views rather than the views of the political

Page 9066

1 leadership. The question was whether, perhaps in any other portion, that

2 you presented the -- that you expressed during this conversation, so that

3 might have been at other moments, the attitude of Serb leaders towards

4 Sarajevo and you're telling us a whole story, but not the answer to the

5 question. So the question is: Did you express to Mr. Mucibabic somewhere

6 the position of the leadership in relation to Sarajevo?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.


10 Q. Mr. Mandic, let me direct your attention once again to a portion

11 of the interview between you and representatives of the Office of the

12 Prosecutor on October 1st of this year. And in particular, I'd like to

13 direct your attention to page 23 of the English transcript, page 29 of the

14 B/C/S transcript, in which you're discussing this telephone conversation.

15 And you said: "Phone call was between me and Milanko Mucibabic. He was

16 in Ilijas and I was either in Novo Sarajevo, Kula, or Kasindol." And then

17 you talk for a while about your time together in judo and some of your

18 common friends. And then you say: "And I told Milenko the -- what was

19 the attitude of Serb leaders toward Sarajevo and barracks and everything

20 else." And the you continue to exchange experiences and agree to meet in

21 Pale in two days since it's "long from our place for both of us."

22 Is that an accurate reflection of the statement you made on

23 October 1st of this year, Mr. Mandic, and was that a truthful statement?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, at the time on May 26th, you were the minister of justice of

Page 9067

1 the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I believe I asked you earlier

2 if you understood the ethnic division of Sarajevo to be one of the

3 political objectives of the Serbian leadership. I'm not sure you answered

4 that.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And so then when you said to Mr. Mucibabic: "We should settle the

7 Sarajevo problem through war and then sit down to talk," was that a

8 reflection of the attitude of the Bosnian Serb leadership?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. I'd like to turn your attention to some comments at page 10 of the

11 English transcript. That's a couple pages beyond the portion we've just

12 looked at. It's after you talk about an event in Hadzici and Vojkovici.

13 And then you mentioned the name Malko Koroman. And then you say: "And

14 how they won't -- tomorrow in Ilijas and Ilidza, my man. Ah, no mercy

15 there, old man. No relations. No way." And Mr. Mucibabic says: "Just

16 expel all and goodbye." And you say: "Expel all and that without weapons

17 and please don't come back any more. Here are your things, your freedom.

18 Here's everything. Just go there and drive." And Mucibabic says: "Run.

19 Where will you go. Go to Visoko, run." You say, "Go to Visoko and ..."

20 Mr. Mucibabic says, "Visoko is not ours. Go to Breza for fuck's sake go

21 there." And you say, "And our people are to be moved in and the buildings

22 and positions filled and so."

23 You had referred earlier to settling the Sarajevo problem through

24 war. Was that the way in which the Sarajevo problem was to be settled

25 through war?

Page 9068

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm looking at the clock.

3 MR. TIEGER: 12.30. I'm not finished with this particular

4 intercept, but I'm at the Court's disposal.

5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

6 MR. TIEGER: I can probably spend about two minutes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you could finish in two minutes. That would

8 be fine.


10 Q. Moving on in the conversation, Mr. Mandic, again there's a short

11 conversation -- you keep talking -- there's mention of the -- see the word

12 "vidovic" on letter -- page -- a couple mentions of him, and then we get

13 to another portion of the transcript after you indicate that the court is

14 in operation.

15 MR. STEWART: Sorry. Mr. Tieger is losing us here, Your Honour.

16 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry. I need -- my apologies. I'm directing

17 Mr. Mandic's attention to a portion of the transcript found at page 13 of

18 the English translation.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, sometimes without indicating, you're

20 moving from the interview to the transcript of the telephone conversation.

21 MR. TIEGER: That's correct. And thank you, Your Honour. This --

22 I am referring everyone's attention at this moment to the telephone

23 conversation.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As you did in your last question, whereas the

25 previous to that was about the interview. Please proceed.

Page 9069


2 Q. And there, Mr. Mandic, Mr. Mucibabic says: "And tell me: Will

3 the town be divided? How?" And you say, "It surely will, old man.

4 They -- I don't know, we're waiting for them to come from Lisbon. The

5 alternative is an old one. We defeat Sarajevo and we expel them all the

6 way to Visoko." And Mr. Mucibabic says, "No doubt about it, the town will

7 be ours." And you say: "No doubt about it, old man. Nothing."

8 And again, Mr. Mandic, was that also a reflection of the way in

9 which the Sarajevo problem was intended to be settled through war?

10 A. This conversation was -- how shall I put it to you,

11 Mr. Prosecutor, to explain to you? An unofficial one. It reflects the

12 war euphoria of the start of the war. I don't think that Mr. Mucibabic

13 and I set ourselves the tasks of solving these issues concerning Sarajevo

14 and the surrounding area. We expressed our views concerning the whole

15 context, the Lisbon talks, and the situation in Sarajevo. This was simply

16 a conversation of mine with a manager of a sawmill from Ilijas who did not

17 make part of any structure at the time, be it civilian or military,

18 belonging to the Serbian people in Ilijas or elsewhere. I think this was

19 a rather informal conversation, not a serious one, merely a chit-chat

20 between two old friends.

21 Q. Mr. Mandic, I think everybody here I think understands that you

22 weren't making policy with Mr. Mucibabic in this conversation. But my

23 question is, and I'll ask a different question now: Was your indication

24 to Mr. Mucibabic that "we're waiting for the outcome of Lisbon" and "the

25 alternative to that is the defeat of Sarajevo" a reflection of the

Page 9070

1 attitude of the political leadership toward the situation at that time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And was your expression that "the defeat of Sarajevo and then we

4 expel them all the way to Visoko" a reflection of the attitude of the

5 political leadership at that time?

6 A. I think that at the time the political view of the Serbian

7 leadership was to divide Sarajevo. The left part of Sarajevo would go to

8 the Serbian entity and the right part would remain in the hands of the

9 Muslims. And I think that the division line ran along the Miljacka River.

10 We did exaggerate in our conversation putting forth some ambitions of

11 ours.

12 Q. And would the Serbian part of Sarajevo, as well as other parts of

13 Republika Srpska, be inhabited by Serbs and the Muslim part be inhabited

14 by Muslims?

15 A. In the Serbian part, the majority people would be the Serb people,

16 and in the Muslim part, the majority people would be the Muslim people.

17 That was how it was both under the Lisbon plan and the views contained

18 therein and under our own views.

19 Q. And when you say your own, you mean your own personally and of the

20 Bosnian Serb political leadership; is that right?

21 MR. STEWART: That question ought to be asked in a less leading

22 form.

23 MR. TIEGER: No problem.

24 Q. And when you say your own, do you mean -- who do you mean?

25 Yourself alone or do you also mean the Bosnian Serb political leadership?

Page 9071

1 MR. STEWART: The question was asked in the same way over again.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, this makes no sense. Was this your own

3 opinion or was this an opinion shared by others, Mr. Mandic?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was a generally accepted view

5 of the leadership of the Bosnian Serbs.

6 MR. TIEGER: I've overstayed my time, Your Honour, so I think --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger. I would first ask Madam Usher to

8 escort the witness and Mr. Tomic out of the courtroom.


10 [The witness stands down]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I asked you yesterday how much you would

12 still need and you said you were confident that until the first break you

13 would finish the examination-in-chief and I know that you had some

14 complaints about interventions, but this really could not explain the

15 extra time you took today since, first of all, there were far less

16 interventions, apart from the one five-minutes-or-less problem. How much

17 time would you still need?

18 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, first of all, I apologise for my bad

19 estimate of yesterday. I have one more intercept and I believe another

20 document, and perhaps a few questions. So I would be -- I mean, I'm

21 confident we'll finish in the next session, but I don't know if it's of

22 any value for me to estimate the amount of time it takes to get through a

23 fairly long intercept.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Try to do it as efficiently as possible, and,

25 well, you're confident the Chamber is expecting you to finish --

Page 9072

1 MR. TIEGER: I'm aware of that, Your Honour. Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- today. We'll adjourn until 1.00. So then you

3 have 45 minutes left.

4 --- Recess taken at 12.38 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: May the witness and Mr. Tomic be brought into the

7 courtroom.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 [Witness's counsel entered court]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Mandic.

11 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 Q. Mr. Mandic, before I move to the next intercept, I just wanted to

14 clarify one point from yesterday's testimony. You explained to us

15 yesterday that you informed Mr. Krajisnik about the poor functioning of

16 the judiciary and that it was making it more difficult to deal with the

17 problems of exchanges of prisoners and conditions in camps. And I asked

18 you then whether you informed Mr. Krajisnik about conditions in camps,

19 and -- that is, I asked you: "Did you tell Mr. Krajisnik what you had

20 heard or were made aware of concerning irregularities and inhumane

21 treatment in detention facilities and camps?" And you said: "In general,

22 I mostly informed Mr. Krajisnik of all the issues that I was aware of, to

23 consult with him on this particular branch of government."

24 I just wanted to ask you whether informing Mr. Krajisnik --

25 informing Mr. Krajisnik of all the issues included the issues of

Page 9073

1 conditions in detention facilities and camps.

2 A. I will repeat what I said last time, and that is that whatever I

3 considered or whatever I noticed regarding the government, I informed

4 Mr. Krajisnik and asked him what to do and what should be done to overcome

5 these problems. I most certainly informed him on the situation in Kula,

6 because that was the only facility where I had access to in April and May

7 of 1992. And as for the other facilities, prisons, collection centres,

8 and other facilities where POWs were sheltered or people who had undergone

9 ethnic cleansing and who were held by the army and the police, a

10 commission was set up to visit those camps. They submitted written

11 reports to me and to the government on the situation there, and then

12 through government, we would inform the Assembly and Mr. Krajisnik and all

13 the deputies and thereafter we would propose measures to be undertaken in

14 order to rectify the situation. On behalf of the Presidency of Republika

15 Srpska, Dr. Biljana Plavsic was in charge of this particular segment and

16 she was involved in coordinating the issues with the International Red

17 Cross and other international organisations in charge of these particular

18 issues, including all the commissions from the State Commission downwards

19 to the municipal commissions.

20 Q. And was the information, therefore, available to the government

21 and available to you, as minister of justice, during that time concerning

22 camps and allegations about conditions in camps made known to the

23 president of the Assembly, to Mr. Krajisnik?

24 A. Concerning all the information that I had pertaining to these

25 particular issues, besides government, I also informed Mr. Krajisnik, and

Page 9074

1 he knew about that.

2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, let me move next to the last intercepted

3 telephone conversation. That's a conversation of May 5th, 1992, between

4 Mr. Mandic and Mr. Kvesic. Your Honour, this is already in evidence as

5 P67, tab 31. There are two indications, also P292, KID 31272 which

6 suggests to me that we need to check and see if it's been duplicated.

7 Let's not do it a third time, if that's the case.

8 Q. Mr. Mandic, do you recall having an opportunity to listen to this

9 telephone conversation during your interview with representatives of the

10 Prosecutor recently, that is, in October of this year?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Let me direct your attention to one part of that conversation, if

13 I may. First of all, let me ask you this question, before I do that: As

14 a general matter, were you and Mr. Kvesic talking about what was happening

15 in the war and, in particular, were you talking about whether or not the

16 Bosnian Serbs or the Bosnian Croats were having success in obtaining

17 territories?

18 A. I praised the Serbs, how successful they were in war, and Branko

19 Kvesic praised the Croats. He called me Vojvoda and I called

20 Sirva [phoen].

21 Q. And I should ask you in connection with that: What was his

22 ethnicity? I think I asked you that before.

23 A. He was a Croat, a Catholic.

24 Q. If I could direct your attention to page 8 of the English

25 transcript, and that's after the initial page of greetings, talk about the

Page 9075

1 families, trying to direct you through there, Mr. Mandic. His question

2 about Mico, discussion about actions in Sarajevo, including Grbavica,

3 Ilidza, Dobrinja, and Nedzarici. Let me ask you, before I pass on that, a

4 portion of page 4, that portion I've just talked about. You say to him:

5 "We came down and cleaned Grbavica." He says, "Is that so." You say,

6 "There, we hold Ilidza, Dobrinja, and Nedzarici all the way to student

7 campus" and so on.

8 Were you relating to Mr. Kvesic the status of Bosnian Serb

9 progress in Sarajevo at that time?

10 A. Yes, I was.

11 Q. Now, if we could continue on in the conversation. The top of page

12 8 of the English transcript. At this point you're talking to Mr. Stojic.

13 Can you tell us quickly who he was?

14 A. Stojic was a colleague of mine from the time when we worked at the

15 SUP and he was assistant minister for finance and common affairs. He was

16 a Croat and a Catholic.

17 Q. And at that portion of the conversation, Mr. Stojic asks you:

18 "Please. Tell me. I have heard that they are fucking pushing, you know."

19 And you say: "But of course. They pushed us all the way to Skenderija."

20 He says: "To Skenderija," and there's laughter. You say: "They pushed

21 all the way to Skenderija." He says: "Listen is there any way to resolve

22 this peacefully." You say, "What?" Mr. Stojic says: "Well, this in

23 Sarajevo." And you say: "Only when they give up everything from

24 Skenderija and around there, then we will accept and leave for them

25 everything from the eternal flame and all the way up." Mr. Stojic says:

Page 9076

1 "But they are left with nothing then." And your answer is: "Fuck them.

2 They didn't want to do it nicely through negotiations. Well, now they'll

3 get nothing."

4 Now, when you refer to being pushed all the way to Skenderija and

5 there's laughter, what are you conveying to Mr. Stojic in that part of the

6 conversation?

7 A. That was a little bit of ridiculing the Muslim propaganda. On

8 their TV channels and in their newspapers they claimed that they had

9 reached Lukavica, took over Dobrinja, reached as far as Jahorina, took

10 over Ilijas and Vogosca. And knowing that this conversation was listened

11 in by Munir Alibabic, I said that we had been pushed all the way to

12 Skenderija, which is the centre of the town. So it was a little bit of a

13 ridicule on my part. There was a row between former colleagues Jusuf

14 Pusina and Munir Alibabic and myself, because I knew they were listening

15 on my conversation and I wanted to ridicule them, because they spoke of me

16 on the TV and in the newspaper, saying that my mother had cursed me not to

17 wage war and that she was begging me, crying not to proceed. And that is

18 what they did on a daily basis.

19 Q. And later in that same portion of the conversation, when you say:

20 "They didn't want to do it nicely through negotiations. Well, now they'll

21 get nothing," is that a reference to the failed negotiations that preceded

22 the outbreak of the war, the Cutileiro negotiations?

23 A. Yes. They were held either in March or April of that year. And I

24 even think that even after that the negotiations continued between the

25 Muslims and the Serbs, that is, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic and Mr. Krajisnik,

Page 9077

1 in Lukavica and in the Assembly in Sarajevo.

2 Q. Although I can't find the specific reference, Mr. Mandic, I

3 believe there's a reference in here to -- during this conversation to your

4 moving on from MUP to Justice. And this conversation occurs on May 5th.

5 I know you told us that you were formally appointed to ministry -- as

6 minister of justice on May 19th. Do you recall when you first knew you

7 were going to be minister of justice?

8 MR. STEWART: Probably at page 13, isn't it, top of page 13 of the

9 English, starting at the very bottom of the previous page?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that was in early May or

11 late April. I cannot remember exactly. I heard the news from the

12 then-minister of MUP, Mico Stanisic, who informed me that the political

13 and state leaderships had decided that I should take over the Ministry of

14 Justice and to start building the Serbian Ministry of Justice.


16 Q. Mr. Mandic, in the interests of time, I'm going to move on past

17 this exhibit and ask you a couple of questions.

18 What, insofar as you know, was the relationship between

19 Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic before the war?

20 A. I didn't know either of them, but I had information that they were

21 good friends.

22 Q. And do you know whether they -- okay. Let me ask you: What was

23 their relationship during the war?

24 A. I think that the relationship was excellent at the beginning of

25 the war. Then it was rather correct. And it seems to me that toward the

Page 9078

1 end there was some mistrust and disagreement in pursuing policies,

2 particularly in personnel policies.

3 Q. And when you say "toward the end," what period of time are you

4 referring to?

5 A. That is when I was the director of the bureau in Belgrade. During

6 those two years and after that. I frequently communicated with

7 Mr. Krajisnik, and even went to Pale from Belgrade, and I mainly was privy

8 to this relationship that I don't think were quite excellent.

9 Q. Now, you spoke earlier about your position as the director or

10 chief of the bureau in Belgrade. Would the nature of that position be

11 such that it could be considered a kind of promotion?

12 A. That was the bureau of the government of Republika Srpska, and all

13 ministries had their representatives in this bureau, appointed by the

14 responsible ministers. Myself, my deputy, and a few other men were

15 coordinators there. The minister of defence, the Ministry of MUP, the

16 Ministry for the Wounded and the Veterans, worked with Serbia, cooperating

17 in providing shelters for them, including every other aspect of

18 cooperation between Belgrade and Pale.

19 Q. Was Mr. Krajisnik instrumental in you getting the position with

20 the bureau in Belgrade?

21 A. Yes, he was. I was dismissed on the 16th of November. The first

22 prime minister, Mr. Djeric, resigned, and I was left jobless then. There

23 was a conflict between me and Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic, and

24 also Radovan Karadzic, because I had a reputation of an urban Serb who was

25 tolerant and unwilling to concede to certain aspects of governance. At

Page 9079

1 the insistence of Biljana Plavsic, I left for Belgrade because our

2 relations were very bad ever since 1991. Thanks to Momcilo Krajisnik, I

3 was given this post in Belgrade; otherwise, I would have been out of work.

4 Q. And was Mr. Krajisnik instrumental in your obtaining the position

5 you did with the bank?

6 A. Yes, he was.

7 Q. And I'd like to show you one last exhibit, Mr. Mandic. I'd like

8 that marked next in order. It's a document entitled "Saint Michael's

9 patron saint's day."

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I understand it's a bit of a nuance,

11 but may be important nuance in translation that -- I'm informed by

12 Ms. Cmeric that -- that what the witness will have heard, of course, in

13 his own language, which was then translated "Was Mr. Krajisnik

14 instrumental in your obtaining a position you did with the bank," that the

15 translation here, of course I'm reliant on Ms. Cmeric, is more in the

16 sense of "involved". So and instrumental does carry a different --

17 MR. TIEGER: I agree.

18 MR. STEWART: -- significance in English.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please try to seek verification,

20 Mr. Tieger.

21 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Prosecution Exhibit P463.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we'll first clarify that.


24 Q. Mr. Mandic, to what extent was Mr. Krajisnik responsible for your

25 obtaining the --

Page 9080

1 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm sorry. I really don't know why

2 then on that basis Mr. Tieger doesn't just picked up "involved" as the

3 foundation for the question and then put that point to the witness in

4 those terms rather than pick a third term.

5 MR. TIEGER: That's fine.

6 Q. Mr. Mandic, to what extent was Mr. Krajisnik involved in your

7 obtaining the position with the bank?

8 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is not receiving translation.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher --

10 You did not --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot hear the interpretation

12 into B/C/S.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Is Mr. Mandic on the right channel?

14 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. The witness said he doesn't have a

15 written translation.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But let's first, before we move to the next

17 document, the question put to you by Mr. Tieger was: To what extent

18 Mr. Krajisnik was involved in your obtaining your position with the

19 bank. Could you please first answer that question.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the largest possible extent.

21 MR. TIEGER: And was he therefore responsible for your obtaining

22 that position?

23 A. He found this job for me and arranged for me to get it. Had it

24 not been for Mr. Krajisnik, I would not have become the manager of the

25 bank.

Page 9081

1 Q. And now if I could turn your attention to that document,

2 Mr. Mandic.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that's the upper left portion in the B/C/S

4 version, that is what appears in our translation.


6 Q. Mr. Mandic, this appears --

7 MR. STEWART: Excuse me. Could we make one -- before we get into

8 the question, just one observation. We think it's obviously a mistake,

9 but in the middle paragraph during the commemoration, the third name

10 there, there's Milenko after Tomo Kovac, there's Milenko and it's Milenko

11 somebody else altogether, we believe. Karisik is what we suggest.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Milenko Karisik.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's Karisik rather than Krajisnik. Yes,

15 please proceed. I think we can correct this middle portion, second line,

16 third name, Milenko Karisik rather than Krajisnik.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. And does this document, Mr. Mandic, reflect a celebration that was

20 held on 21 November, during which the MUP of Republika Srpska celebrated

21 its Patron Saint's Day?

22 A. Yes. It was the 21st of November. It was the Patron Saint's Day

23 of the MUP of Republika Srpska.

24 Q. And at that occasion, were awards presented to persons who had --

25 were people honoured for their involvement with and contribution to the

Page 9082

1 MUP?

2 A. Yes. And let me clarify this to you, Mr. Prosecutor. The

3 Nemanjic's Order is awarded by Mr. Karadzic, as president of the Republic,

4 to the then-minister of MUP, then the deputy minister of -- that is, to

5 Mico Stanisic, as the minister of MUP, Momcilo Mandic as deputy. Tomo

6 Kovac, I don't know if he was chief of the security station at Ilidza.

7 Milenko Karisik as the commander of the special unit of MUP, and to the

8 MUP as an institution, as a ministry. The Order of the Karadjordjevic's

9 Star was given to seven members of the ministry. I don't know who. And

10 MUP of Republika Srpska, headed by the Minister Mico Stanisic, presented

11 their -- the Golden Badges as credits to the president of the Republic,

12 Radovan Karadzic, to the president of the Assembly, Momcilo Krajisnik, the

13 Ministry of the MUP of Serbia, Zoran Sokolovic, to Mico Stanisic, to

14 Jovica Stanisic. I think this man was the chief of the state security of

15 the MUP of Serbia. To Milan Martic from the Republic of the Serbian

16 Krajina. He was the MUP minister. To Mihalj Kertes, who was the chief of

17 the customs in Serbia, to Radovan Stojcic, deputy minister of the MUP of

18 Serbia, to Momcilo Mandic, myself, as a former member of MUP, and to the

19 general, Ratko Mladic, as the commander of the Army of Republika Srpska.

20 Q. And were all these individuals presented the Golden Badge of the

21 ministry for their contributions to the common effort pursued by those

22 people and the MUP?

23 A. I don't believe there was anyone present here from Serbia, not

24 even the person from Krajina. What's his name? Milan Martic. I don't

25 think that Ratko Mladic was at this ceremony either.

Page 9083

1 Q. But was the award bestowed on them, either personally or in

2 absentia, because of their contributions to the common effort?

3 A. If you're referring to this other award, that was presented by the

4 minister of the MUP of Republika Srpska, whereas the other awards were

5 given to some five or six people from Sarajevo. That was the awarding of

6 the Nemanjic Order that was presented to these people by the president of

7 the Republic, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, may I ask you again to concentrate on the

9 question. The question was whether this Golden Badge was awarded to the

10 persons mentioned for their contribution to the activities of the MUP.

11 MR. TIEGER: Well, maybe I can ask it this way, Your Honour, if it

12 makes it easy.

13 Q. Why did they get the award, insofar as you know, Mr. Mandic?

14 A. This was a decision taken by Mico Stanisic in relation to people

15 who were either from the MUP of Serbia or from the MUP of Republika

16 Srpska.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The question is why. You now told us who gave it and

18 where those who received it came from, but the question is simply: Why

19 did they get this award?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I did not take part in

21 the presenting of this badge. I was merely invited as a party receiving

22 this. I don't know what credit was referred to here by presenting these

23 awards, nor whose idea it was.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you must have had an idea -- well, perhaps

25 you, for the Nemanjic Order, but what in your perception was the reason

Page 9084

1 why they got the order, the Golden Badge of the ministry?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that I received it as a

3 former assistant minister and deputy minister, and these people probably

4 took part in reinforcing, strengthening the structure of the MUP. If you

5 have in mind these people from Serbia, outsiders, helping with the

6 equipment, with the weaponry, in order to strengthen the institution of

7 the Ministry of the Interior, I believe that this is the reason.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Just a structure or just in whatever way they

9 contributed to the work or the existence of the MUP?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we don't think the word "structure" was

13 there in the original answer. We don't know where it's come from.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course I -- when you said in your previous

15 answer that these people probably took part in reinforcing, strengthening,

16 and then of the MUP, what did they reinforce or strengthen? The MUP or

17 anything specific of the MUP?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The MUP itself, most certainly,

19 because I know that --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then let's -- perhaps forget about "structure."

21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. That concludes the

22 Prosecution's examination-in-chief.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger. I think that there's -- it

24 doesn't make that much sense at this moment to offer an opportunity to

25 Defence to start to cross-examine the witness. So, therefore, that will

Page 9085

1 be delayed until tomorrow. You did send a message to the Senior Legal

2 Officer, Mr. Stewart.

3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: What -- if tomorrow morning I would give you an

5 opportunity to cross-examine the witness, what could we expect?

6 MR. STEWART: That I would decline the opportunity, Your Honour,

7 and so that -- because the message was a courtesy to indicate to the Trial

8 Chamber in advance, I probably in just two sentences should say in open

9 court that the -- it indicated that -- well, it's drawn to my attention,

10 Your Honour, that perhaps the witness should be asked to leave before

11 we --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'd rather.

13 MR. STEWART: -- observation.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, we have not finished yet your

15 examination, so we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning. I instruct

16 you as I did the previous days not to talk with anyone about the testimony

17 you have given or still are about to give. Then you're excused until

18 tomorrow morning, same courtroom, 9.00.

19 Mr. Tomic, you're excused as well.

20 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Mandic.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour

22 [The witness stands down]

23 [Witness counsel withdrew]


25 Yes, Mr. Stewart. Well, the message was clear, and I think it's

Page 9086

1 good to that you refer to it in open court. You know that the ruling of

2 the Chamber was that you would be given an opportunity to cross-examine

3 the witness and on specific issues, that is, especially if you would need,

4 as it was said then, further cross-examination on -- related to lately

5 disclosed documents, you could apply for that, which -- and I hope that

6 there was no uncertainty about that, that the Chamber expected you to --

7 if you wanted to use your right to cross-examine the witness, which is a

8 right, on any other subject, that you would do it once the

9 examination-in-chief had been concluded. I also understood from your

10 message of yesterday that you may apply at a later stage for the

11 cross-examination as a whole, so not just on the lately disclosed

12 documents.

13 Of course, we haven't seen any such submissions, but you will have

14 to look at them if such submissions or if such applications are made. But

15 I take it that it was clear to you -- well, whatever your thoughts about

16 it might have been that the Chamber expected you to cross-examine on all

17 the -- well, let's say timely or at least earlier disclosed documents and

18 on any other subject right after the conclusion of the

19 examination-in-chief.

20 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, Your Honour. Your Honour does -- I just

21 had mentioned the message, but Your Honour's remarks over the last couple

22 of minutes certainly do, as one would expect, of course, accurately

23 reflect the message, Your Honour. But I do confirm that the Defence team,

24 and I -- I believe I can speak for the whole team, the Defence team, we

25 believe we understand the Trial Chamber's ruling the other day in response

Page 9087

1 to our application at that time to defer Mr. Mandic's cross-examination

2 generally. We understand the Trial Chamber's expectation that we would

3 proceed on -- in the areas that you have mentioned in relation to Mr.

4 Mandic's cross-examination. We believe our understanding of that is

5 clear. And our conveyed message as a courtesy in advance to the Trial

6 Chamber is now our position that we -- I said we may. Your Honour,

7 Chamber the expectation certainly is that we will at some appropriate

8 point make an application to bring Mr. Mandic back for an entire

9 cross-examination. We will, of course, then, have to support that

10 application with all the material which we believe appropriate to put

11 before the Court at that stage to support that application, both in effect

12 retrospectively to cover the position as it is now and the position as it

13 will be -- which is the key point -- at the point we make the application.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I think tomorrow morning we'll -- the

15 Chamber will start to give you the opportunity and we would not be

16 surprised if you decline at that moment.

17 MR. STEWART: I understand, Your Honour. That won't come as a

18 total surprise.

19 JUDGE ORIE: What I bring to your attention is the following:

20 That -- the Chamber fully understands for what reasons you're declining,

21 because you -- the Defence takes the position that they have not had

22 sufficient time and facilities to prepare the cross-examination. That's

23 clear to the Chamber. At the same time, I draw your attention to the fact

24 that if the Chamber allots time for preparation, a week off, at a certain

25 moment as we did consistently now and we are still about to do, I expect a

Page 9088

1 further Scheduling Order before the recess. And it has already been,

2 well, presented to you in a kind of a draft form and we had already some

3 oral argument on that.

4 But if the Chamber finally gives a scheduling order and if it does

5 so after it has heard the parties in some detail, as we did last time,

6 then of course the -- such an order could not be circumvened by asking in

7 respect of every witness. And of course you didn't ask for every witness.

8 MR. STEWART: I haven't, Your Honour. I clearly haven't.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I'm aware of that, that you didn't ask that for crime

10 base witnesses. But if with some frequency the Defence applies for delay

11 of the cross-examination, then it might well disturb the scheduling as

12 ordered by the Chamber. And I'm not saying that under no circumstances

13 the Defence could apply further delay of cross-examination in respect of a

14 witness; but at the same time, I'm drawing your attention to the fact that

15 if that happens and if that happens frequently, then that would finally

16 disturb the whole scheduling by the Chamber, a scheduling which is based

17 upon an assessment of what would be sufficient, adequate time for the

18 preparation of cross-examination of a witness, I would say adequate time

19 and facilities for the preparation of cross-examination of the witness.

20 I'm just telling you this, that you should keep that in your mind.

21 We will --

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I simply say straight away, Your

23 Honour. All those matters, thank you, Your Honour, and I'm sure it's

24 helpful to all concerned and especially to Mr. Krajisnik to understand

25 that, because I do my best to explain the position to him from time to

Page 9089

1 time as well. But all those elements that Your Honour outlines are well

2 understood by counsel for the Defence. And, well, every relevant factor

3 is a matter to be taken into account on every application at the time

4 every application is made.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I just wanted to --

6 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- Make things perfectly clear.

8 MR. STEWART: That's understood, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar will now distribute the English

10 version of the Kljuc [phoen] diary, which we're still waiting for. Yes.

11 Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12 I would like to thank again the interpreters and the technicians

13 for again a couple of more minutes that we've stolen from them. It's

14 highly appreciated that you show such flexibility where we are not able to

15 finish on time.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day of

19 December, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.