1 Tuesday, 7 December 2004
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Case number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus
7 Momcilo Krajisnik.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Good afternoon to everyone in this courtroom and those assisting
10 us just outside the courtroom.
11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I mention that we have a new member
12 of the team. Sadly, Ms. Dixon will be leaving us shortly but I'm
13 delighted that Ms. Kelly Pitcher has joined the Defence team.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome, Ms. Pitcher, in the courtroom.
15 Mr. Stewart, are you ready to cross-examine the witness,
16 Mr. Mandic?
17 MR. STEWART: When he arrives, Your Honour, yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Mandic
19 into the courtroom.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Mandic.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Back again in court. You are alone at this moment.
24 Mr. Tomic doesn't accompany you?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He will come the day after tomorrow
1 in the course of the day. He remained in Sarajevo because he has some
2 business to attend to at the court.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So he'll arrive at the 9th of December.
4 Therefore, if you would have any question in relation to whether or not
5 you should answer a question, whether your answer would tend to
6 incriminate yourself, you always can address the Court.
7 Mr. Stewart, before I give you the opportunity to cross-examine
8 Mr. Mandic, perhaps since -- I first remind you, Mr. Mandic, that you're
9 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of
10 your testimony, at the beginning of your testimony in chief, that you'll
11 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and that's
12 just as applicable during cross-examination.
13 Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
14 WITNESS: MOMCILO MANDIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart:
17 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mr. Mandic, you told the Trial Chamber a little bit about the
19 decision to transfer you to Belgrade later on in 1992. Do you remember
21 A. Yes. Yes, sir.
22 Q. And that decision you described -- well, you've described it in
23 various ways, but you said in your evidence, and this, for everybody's
24 reference, was at page 62 of the transcript of Wednesday's evidence,
25 Wednesday, the 23rd of November. That doesn't help you very much,
1 Mr. Mandic. I understand that. But it's helpful for other people for the
3 You said that on the 16th of November, 1992, at the Assembly
4 meeting held in Zvornik, that Professor Djeric, who was then the prime
5 minister, submitted a resignation, and that led to the fall of the
6 government. And you were told that the next prime minister designate
7 didn't want you on his cabinet and the top leaders of Republika Srpska
8 "recommended me to go to Belgrade."
9 What had been the position as between you and the outgoing
10 prime minister, Professor Djeric, in the run-up to that Assembly of the
11 16th of November?
12 A. It seems to me that it was quite a fair one, and before the
13 Zvornik Assembly session, I agreed that I should go to Belgrade and that
14 the Assembly should discuss this in September in Bijeljina. However, the
15 MPs did not vote in favour of my departure to Belgrade, and I continued
16 discharging my function as the minister of justice. Prior to that, prior
17 to the Zvornik session, Mr. Djeric had suggested that I become a minister
18 without a portfolio and go to Belgrade to represent Republika Srpska and
19 that my position of the minister of justice should be taken by Milan
20 Trbojevic, the then prime minister.
21 Q. So from what you've just told the Trial Chamber, that -- when you
22 say "I agreed that I should go to Belgrade," that appears from what you've
23 just said to have been an agreement between you and Mr. Djeric.
24 A. This was suggested to me by Mr. Djeric in autumn 1992. As a prime
25 minister, it seems to me, at least, that he had more confidence in -- and
1 trust in Minister Trbojevic, who was the deputy prime minister and was
2 therefore superior to me, and suggested that he then become the minister
3 of justice. In the meantime, my family had moved to live in Belgrade and
4 I agreed with that idea. However, it did not come into effect before the
5 16th of November.
6 Q. So is it this: That from a purely political point of view as far
7 as retaining or losing the job was concerned, you were not especially
8 enthusiastic to give up your position as minister of justice?
9 A. I agreed with the idea, and this was placed on the agenda and put
10 to vote at the Bijeljina Assembly session in September, it seems to me.
11 And then the MPs decided that I should continue discharging that function.
12 I wasn't overly enthusiastic to go to Belgrade, but I agreed with the idea
13 since my family had already moved there.
14 Q. That's what I was getting at, Mr. Mandic. So, but the overall
15 picture so far as your political work position was concerned and your
16 family circumstances were concerned, overall, the move to Belgrade was not
17 such a bad thing from your viewpoint; is that right?
18 A. No.
19 Q. How is that wrong, then? Are you agreeing with what I -- there's
20 always an ambiguity there. Do you agree with what I've just put to you,
21 that overall, taking into account the political position, your work, and
22 your family circumstances, that overall, the proposal for you to move to
23 Belgrade wasn't such a bad thing from your point of view? Do you agree
24 with that?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And then what happened was that the outgoing prime minister, as he
2 turned out to be, Mr. Djeric, having made that proposal and you having
3 made that agreement with him, at the very least, the incoming prime
4 minister after Mr. Djeric's resignation, he didn't want you to stay in
5 Bosnia, did he? He didn't want you to stay in his cabinet, did he?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. So in a nutshell, his position, the new prime minister, was, in
8 effect, entirely in accord with what you had already agreed with
9 Mr. Djeric?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You were asked about quite a lot of times in your evidence,
12 actually, you've been asked about the phrase, in English it's "top
13 leadership of Republika Srpska." Mr. Mandic, to try to get that as clear:
14 Do you regard the phrase "top leadership" as some fixed concept or fixed
15 definition, where you could list the members of the top leadership, or do
16 you say that it is a matter of the context of the particular point at
17 issue who is the top leadership in relation to a particular matter, who is
18 the top leadership in relation to another matter? Which of those is it?
19 Is it -- in your mind, is it a fixed body of people or is it a more
20 flexible concept?
21 A. When I was talking about the core leadership, that's to say the
22 leadership of Republika Srpska, I meant the political establishment and
23 the official leadership, that is to say, a group of people that mostly
24 decided about the policies run by the state.
25 Q. One reason I ask is this, Mr. Mandic: That when you were asked in
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 relation to this issue of your going to Belgrade, you were asked who made
2 the decision that you would no longer serve as minister of justice and
3 would instead take the position in Belgrade. And you've given some
4 evidence this afternoon on how that came about. You then talked about the
5 top leadership of Republika Srpska, and that was the phrase as it came
6 across in the English transcript, and -- you're getting it in translation,
7 of course, today. And you said: "I'm referring to the Presidency, to
8 Mr. Karadzic, Biljana Plavsic, and Nikola Koljevic." So at that point,
9 you were identifying the top leadership as those three people:
10 Mr. Karadzic, Ms. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic; correct?
11 A. Yes. If I may explain in more detail this particular
12 relationship, Mr. Stewart. Most of the influence exerted for Mr. Lukic to
13 become prime minister was by a member of the Presidency of Republika
14 Srpska, Mr. Koljevic, who had previously been the liaison officer in
15 Sarajevo. In that particular moment -- I apologise.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No. Mr. Tieger, I thought -- you answered the
17 question. You're on your feet. I take it that you'd like to have
18 references to the pages where Mr. Stewart is referring to. Is that --
19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'd both like to have a particular
20 reference, although I know the general part of the transcript to which
21 Mr. Stewart is referring. I should also mention, by the way, that I have
22 the sequential printout of the transcripts, at least with me for this
23 session, rather than the daily printouts, which Mr. Stewart is referring.
24 So it may take me a bit of time to find the corresponding pages in the
25 sequential transcript. But I also wanted to point out that Mr. Stewart's
1 reference to the witness's comments about leadership in the context of
2 this discussion only reflected a portion of the witness's responses with
3 respect to that issue, and the witness -- I won't get into the details of
4 it, but continued to explain the nature of the decision that was made,
5 those persons who made it, and their -- and who the leadership was at that
6 time. And that's found on page 86, 10 of the transcript. So if the
7 witness is being directed for clarification purposes to portions of his
8 earlier testimony, then it should certainly embrace the full portion of
9 his comments with respect to that issue.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I would allow Mr. Stewart to start at a certain
11 point and to explore that matter, and not necessarily put everything to
12 the witness, because it might be asked a bit too much. On the other hand,
13 Mr. Stewart, I take it that you will give us page numbers and especially
14 23rd of November was not a Wednesday but a Tuesday, as far as I remember.
15 So I take it that you wanted to take us to the Tuesday rather than to the
16 Wednesday, the 23rd of November.
17 MR. STEWART: I thought Tuesday was the -- well, perhaps I've
18 just --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Tuesday was the 23rd. You called it Wednesday.
20 MR. STEWART: Did I? I'm sorry. I miss -- in put, Your Honour.
21 No, I'd certainly meant the 23rd; the date is the operative thing. The --
22 I apologise for not giving the specific page number. It was probably just
23 casualness because it followed on within about one or two pages of the
24 reference which I gave a few minutes ago. Your Honour, so far as the
25 sequential transcript that Mr. Tieger has got, I'm afraid I can't help
1 him. We start work on preparing cross-examination before we have that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: As I said earlier, that if you have the beginning of
3 the day marked, then page 70 is just 70 pages further down. It's quite
5 MR. STEWART: Absolutely.
6 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing you should do is mark the beginning of
7 the day. So then Mr. Tieger will find it, if you will assist him to the
8 extent possible. Please proceed.
9 MR. STEWART: Page 62, it was, at the foot of page 62 -- excuse
10 me, Your Honour. I'll just have to scroll back a bit and see where we
12 Q. Yes, Mr. Mandic. You were indicating in your evidence Mr. -- yes.
13 Mr. Lukic was -- in summary, he was very much Mr. Koljevic's man,
14 Mr. Koljevic's candidate, wasn't he?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you, you were not -- there was no question of you being in
17 Mr. Lukic's cabinet; it was clear that you were not going to be invited
18 into his cabinet, wasn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And it was also clear, wasn't it, that indirectly, you were not
21 going to get any support from Mr. Koljevic for your being retained in the
23 A. Or Ms. Plavsic, for that matter.
24 Q. Well, I was going to suggest to you, Mr. Mandic, it was even less
25 likely, perhaps, that you were going to get support from Ms. Plavsic,
1 wasn't it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So that the -- in the end, the decision taken so far as it was in
4 any sense taken by the top leaders, whatever that means in that context of
5 the Republika Srpska government, was in effect an endorsement or
6 ratification, if you like, of what had been agreed between you and
7 Mr. Djeric?
8 A. That's correct.
9 Q. And when you say, and this is at page 67 of the transcript, you
10 said that Mr. Krajisnik had called you, had called you and Mr. Stanisic,
11 and informed them, that's you and him, that the Presidency made a
12 decision, that's to say the top leadership of Republika Srpska, to the
13 effect that at the request of Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic, "the
14 two of us go to Belgrade to hold different office and that we cannot
15 continue serving on the executive during that period." Is it that --
16 well, first of all, Mr. Krajisnik, who, at the beginning of your evidence,
17 you didn't specifically mention in relation to this matter, Mr. Krajisnik
18 definitely made the call to you to inform you of the final decision to go
19 to Belgrade, did he?
20 A. In Mr. Djeric's government, I was supposed to become a minister
21 without a portfolio and become a head of the bureau in Belgrade. I was
22 unable to obtain that position in Mr. Lukic's government, and Mr. Lukic
23 even disagreed with the idea that I should take that position. So it was
24 on the basis of a political consensus that it was decided that I should
25 become head of the bureau of Republika Srpska in Belgrade and Mr. Stanisic
1 would become the representative of the president of Republika Srpska,
2 advisor for the relations with Serbia. And that was at least something
3 that Mr. Krajisnik recommended to me.
4 Q. So it was that the decision -- to get it clear: The decision to
5 go to Belgrade was reached in the way that you've described with
6 Mr. Djeric, but then there was a change upon Mr. Lukic being about to
7 replace Mr. Djeric, there was a change in the function that you actually
8 undertook when you got to Belgrade; that's the position, is it?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. And it was Mr. Krajisnik, was it, you say, who contacted you and
11 informed you of this change?
12 A. Actually, Mr. Krajisnik, in whom I had the greatest trust,
13 explained the political situation to me, and the political decision,
14 specifically, of the prime minister, Lukic, in the inner circle of the
15 leadership of Republika Srpska, and I agreed, realising what the political
16 climate was, the general sentiment in the top leadership, and I left for
18 Q. So when you said in relation to the different position that you
19 were to have under Mr. Lukic's government, you said, just a few minutes
20 ago: "And that was at least something that Mr. Krajisnik recommended to
21 me." Is this right: That Mr. Krajisnik was -- and I'm paraphrasing, but
22 he was saying something to you along the lines of: Well -- you addressed
23 each other in fairly familiar terms, something along the lines of: Momo,
24 this is the way it is. This is really -- this is the best we can do, and
25 you should accept this?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and
13 French transcripts correspond
1 A. Right.
2 Q. And he was effectively conveying to you, perhaps because he knew
3 you, he was conveying to you what had been decided by the consensus, as
4 you describe, with his view of what you should do?
5 A. Yes. He was explaining to me what I should accept.
6 Q. Going back a little bit in time to your appointment, the earlier
7 appointment you had as the assistant minister with responsibility for MUP,
8 and that went back to February, March 1991, didn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is it correct that Mr. Krajisnik, as far as you could see and as
11 far as you were aware, had no particular role or part in that appointment?
12 A. I did not know Mr. Krajisnik at the time. I was a judge of a
13 lower court, lower criminal court in Sarajevo, and Vitomir Zepinic, who
14 would later became deputy minister for the interior, came to see me and
15 suggested that I take over some responsibilities in the crime control
16 section. In end May, I went with Vito Zepinic to Djure Djakovica Street,
17 where the headquarters of the party was, and met Rajko Djukic, who was
18 chairman of the staffing committee. I had an interview with those two
19 people, and as advised by Zepinic and some other people from the courts, I
20 accepted the transfer to the MUP, as somebody who had already served in
21 that department.
22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, excuse me one moment, Mr. Mandic.
23 Ms. Cmeric suggests that it would be helpful if Mr. Mandic would be
24 invited to speak a little more slowly. She is not one of the
25 interpreters, but generally speaking if Ms. Cmeric feels that, there's a
1 good reason.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters would appreciate it. We just
3 missed the name of a person whom the witness met together with
4 Mr. Rajko Djukic.
5 MR. STEWART: Another consensus, Your Honour, there.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you give us the name you --
7 Could the interpreters perhaps help me out where, on what line, we
8 find the --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Line 16, page 11. The witness came to the
10 headquarters of the party and met Rajko Djukic and another person.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us who you met at the
12 headquarters of the party, apart from Rajko Djukic.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dr. Radovan Karadzic, president of
14 the party.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, this was caused by a rather high speed of
16 speech. Could you please try to slow down a bit.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour. I will
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. STEWART:
21 Q. Mr. Mandic, in many ways, I'm the last person to make a request
22 for anybody to speak more slowly, and I'll try and remember myself in this
24 So, so far as your appointment as assistant minister with
25 responsibility for MUP was concerned, which we were dealing with, is it
1 correct, therefore, that you have absolutely no knowledge and no reason to
2 believe that there was any involvement by Mr. Krajisnik in that
4 A. No, I didn't know Mr. Krajisnik. I even heard later that he was a
5 bit sceptical about me, because I had been a policeman under the communist
6 regime and they had a dose of mistrust concerning me. That's something I
7 learned later. But I'm not aware that Mr. Krajisnik had any part in my
8 appointment. I believe it was rather Dr. Vitomir Zepinic who was
9 responsible for it, because, as he put it, he needed a good policeman in
10 that job. And other people in the leadership wanted a non-party person in
11 that position, because it was the time when there was an attempt to
12 depoliticise the judiciary and the police. People from the political life
13 could not be appointed to positions in the police or the judiciary.
14 Q. And you earlier in your evidence in this case, and this is at page
15 71 of Tuesday, the 23rd of November, you were asked whether you were
16 involved in ensuring that SDS selections for the MUP were actually
17 realised, and you said yes, you were. And you were asked about
18 discussions with Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Djukic about those selections, and
19 you said that you did talk to Mr. Djukic and Mr. Karadzic, and also with
20 regional leaders of the Serbian Democratic Party from the particular
21 places from which the candidates came.
22 It's right, isn't it, Mr. Mandic, that there again in relation to
23 that matter, you didn't have discussions with Mr. Krajisnik, and
24 Mr. Krajisnik was not involved in that matter? Is that correct?
25 A. The rule was that every municipality with a majority Muslim
1 population should appoint the head of the police for that area, whereas
2 the second most numerous population should appoint the commander of the
3 police, and the third most numerous ethnicity, ethnic community, should
4 appoint the head of the crime control unit. And there were always three
5 candidates from the three national parties: SDS, HDZ, and SDA. And the
6 political leadership from the grass root level would always provide us
7 with three names, and Mr. Zepinic and I would together nominate, based on
8 recommendations, one of the three. So that involved the input of regional
9 authorities and various parties: Serbian, Croatian, and Muslim. That was
10 the method for choosing staff for various senior positions at the time.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, may I remind you: The question was:
12 Mr. Krajisnik was not involved in that matter; is that correct? Now
13 you've told us how it all went, but whether Mr. Krajisnik was or was not
14 involved, that question has not been answered yet, although I take it that
15 the answer is negative.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he wasn't. He wasn't. Only
17 leaders of the SDS on the regional level were involved.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that answer would have done and would have
19 taken less time.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
21 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Then you were asked, and this is at page 72 of that same day's
23 transcript, Tuesday, the 23rd of November, you were asked about a meeting
24 of the Council of Ministers held on January the 11th, 1992, and you were
25 shown Prosecution Exhibit 412.
1 MR. STEWART: And I wonder if the witness, please, could be given
2 that exhibit again.
3 Q. Do you recall this document, Mr. Mandic, from the other day?
4 You've been shown a lot of documents over the last week or so.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Well, in that case, I'll -- the most convenient course, I think,
7 Mr. Mandic, is going to be for me just to remind you what you were asked
8 about it rather than take time for you to read right through quite a
9 lengthy document. The particular -- well, first of all, just cast your
10 eye over those that were present, so that you can see -- and it includes
11 Mr. Stanisic and the point was drawn to your attention that among those in
12 attendance were Mr. Krajisnik. Do you see that? You were asked
13 specifically --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- about -- thank you. You were asked about point number 2,
16 towards -- well, it's probably on the first page. It is in the English.
17 The following agenda was set for the meeting. And then there are three
18 numbered items. The second is execution of tasks resulting from the
19 declaration of the promulgation of the Republic of the Serbian People of
20 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and we now know, and have known for quite a long
21 time in this case, that that was on the 9th of January, 1992.
22 And then you were pointed to the second paragraph following that
23 identified agenda item. So it's under the heading -- it's item 2
24 expectation execution of tasks resulting from the declaration of the
25 promulgation of the Republic of the Serbian People of Bosnia and
1 Herzegovina." That's an underlined heading. Do you see which one I'm
2 talking about, Mr. Mandic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you were asked whether the Council of Ministers had identified
5 priorities which emerged or sprang from the declaration, and you were
6 asked whether that included the defining of ethnic territory and the
7 establishment of government organs in the territory; correct? And it was
8 pointed out that discussion included Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, and
9 Mr. Djukic. Just after that, I'll remind you of the document,
10 Mr. Mandic. My first question is essentially a simple one. Can we take
11 it that you -- you can tell the Trial Chamber no more than you are able to
12 read from these minutes of that meeting and -- well, I'll stop there.
13 That you were able to -- in relation to those matters, then, you were able
14 to read from the minutes?
15 A. I was not a member either of the Council of Ministers, nor did I
16 attend these sessions, and I first saw these minutes when I received them
17 from a lawyer of the Office of the Prosecutor. So that I can only comment
18 upon what I read.
19 Q. And it's correct, isn't it, that Mr. Krajisnik did have a role in
20 relation to the establishment of government organs in the newly declared
21 Republika Srpska, because he was the president of the Assembly?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. You were asked about top leadership, and Mr. Tieger need not fear.
24 We're going to look at a number of references to that, Mr. Mandic. At
25 page 75 of Tuesday's transcript, Tuesday, the 23rd of November, you were
1 asked by Mr. Tieger that he'd like to know throughout the pendency of
2 1992, who the top leadership was. And you went on to describe that. What
3 I want to ask you first is: What in -- let's take first of all a date, so
4 that it helps to be more specific, April 1992. What did you see as the
5 responsibilities of Dr. Nikola Koljevic?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. And what did you see as - again, April 1992 - the responsibilities
8 of Dr. Biljana Plavsic?
9 A. I wouldn't know. She was in charge of some humanitarian affairs.
10 I know that she froze her membership in the Presidency and toured
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, because prior to that there had been several armed
12 skirmishes in the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And I seem to remember
13 that Biljana Plavsic, together with Fikret Abdic and some other officials
14 from the Presidency and the government went out into the field, trying to
15 ease inter-ethnic tensions. I remember Foca, I remember February in
16 Bijeljina. There was an incursion of paramilitary units in Bijeljina, and
17 I believe Mrs. Plavsic went there. And I believe that those were her
18 activities over the course of those few months.
19 Q. Now, I asked you about their responsibilities. Can you say from
20 your recollection what actual formal position Dr. Koljevic held in April
22 A. He was a member of the Presidency of Republika Srpska.
23 Q. And Mrs. Plavsic?
24 A. She too was a member of the Presidency of Republika Srpska. I'm
25 not sure if the Presidency had been established already and Dr. Karadzic
1 had been appointed president and the other two vice-presidents. I'm not
2 sure. But I know that very soon, the Presidency was elected, and
3 Dr. Karadzic was elected president. He who had been only a political
4 figure of the Serbian people until then. I think it was in April that he
5 assumed his post of president of the Republic. And as for Biljana Plavsic
6 and Dr. Koljevic, they provided for political continuity. From the
7 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, they transferred to the newly
8 established Presidency of the Serbian entity.
9 Q. And between -- I'll put a specific time frame on it, in case
10 that's helpful. From April through to August 1992, what were the tasks
11 and responsibilities that you -- you yourself could see that Dr. Nikola
12 Koljevic was discharging?
13 A. You have to believe me if I say that I really can't remember what
14 Nikola Koljevic was doing exactly at that time. That was the time of the
15 beginning of the war, and the deepening rift among the three ethnic
16 communities. Nikola Koljevic had his job in the government, and I really
17 don't remember what particular duties he was busy with.
18 Q. Do you recall that over those few months Dr. Koljevic did become
19 engaged more significantly than others in the leadership in relations with
20 international representatives?
21 A. Quite possible. That's quite possible, but I'm not sure. Dr.
22 Koljevic had a very good command of the English language. I believe he
23 even studied and defended his doctoral thesis in England, and I believe
24 it's quite possible that he handled relations with the international
25 community. But I really cannot confirm one way or another.
1 Q. Well, that was what I was going to put to you, Mr. Mandic. You
2 confirm, Dr. Koljevic's English was in fact absolutely excellent, wasn't
3 it, throughout this whole period, I presume; right?
4 A. Yes. Dr. Biljana Plavsic and Dr. Karadzic also could speak
5 English. But I believe Dr. Koljevic's doctoral thesis was concerned with
6 Shakespeare and he got his Ph.D. in London.
7 Q. In a nutshell, in a ranking, Dr. Koljevic's English was absolutely
8 excellent, Dr. Karadzic's English was at all relevant times very good; Dr.
9 Plavsic's English was not as good as that; is that a fair summary?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. And during -- thank you. And during that period --
12 A. Precisely. You gave a very good rating of their English.
13 Koljevic, then an empty space, Karadzic, followed by Plavsic.
14 Q. And moving away from the English language, in a sense, during that
15 period from April through to August 1992, Mrs. Plavsic's responsibilities
16 continued to lie mainly in the area of what I'll broadly call humanitarian
17 matters, didn't they?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And throughout the whole period from the -- let's start from the
20 declaration of the Republika Srpska on the 9th of January, right through
21 all the months that I've mentioned, right through, let's say, to August
22 1992, Mr. Krajisnik was at all times very heavily engaged in his
23 responsibilities and functions as president of the Assembly, wasn't he?
24 A. You mean the Assembly of the Serbian People or the joint Assembly
25 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 Q. Thank you for drawing that to my attention. I did in fact mean
2 the Assembly of the Serbian -- the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
3 Herzegovina, and then Republika Srpska, as it became. Thank you for that.
4 A. When the war began in March, April, and May 1992, all the Serbian
5 senior staff in the administration and the government, like Mr. Krajisnik
6 and I, consulted with each other, trying to find the best solutions as to
7 what to do, and Mr. Karadzic was a figure apart at the time. He was still
8 an exclusively political personality.
9 Q. But to go back to Mr. Krajisnik -- well, let's take it in stages.
10 It's quite clear, isn't it, Mr. Mandic, that whatever the difficulties,
11 the Assembly of the Serb Republic, and Republika Srpska, as it came to be
12 known, continued to function and continued to meet with some considerable
14 A. Correct. They met in different places across Republika Srpska.
15 Very rarely would two Assembly sessions be held in the same city, because
16 Bosnia and Herzegovina was divided, and every time the Assembly would meet
17 in a different place, once in Bijeljina, once in Zvornik, once in Banja
18 Luka, once in Pale, et cetera.
19 Q. And you've mentioned, of course, or implied correctly, that there
20 was a period of overlap when Mr. Krajisnik remained the president of the
21 Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, through the early months of 1992?
22 A. Well, I remember that when Serbian deputies walked out of the
23 Assembly, President Krajisnik chaired one or two Assembly sessions after
24 that, when a vote would be missing, just one vote, in order to pass a
25 certain proposal, I seem to remember that he was the one who voted for, to
1 enable it.
2 Q. If we go back and then stick now with the Serb Assembly. But did
3 you see throughout the period from January 1992 right through the summer
4 of 1992, through to August, did you see that a very great deal of
5 Mr. Krajisnik's time and energies was required by the functioning of the
6 Assembly and the meetings of the Assembly, coupled with the work to
7 establish the organs of the new Republika Srpska?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And he was also during that period quite considerably involved in
10 international negotiations, wasn't he?
11 A. I don't recall him being involved in international negotiations in
12 the beginning. I don't think so. I believe he was rather more involved
13 in communicating with, as we called them at the time, the Muslim
14 authorities, and he had several meetings with Mr. Alija Izetbegovic,
15 especially as concerned Sarajevo and the events in the beginning of the
16 war around Sarajevo. I believe it was Dr. Plavsic who communicated more
17 with the international community, the Presidency, Dr. Nikola Koljevic and
18 Dr. Karadzic, as far as I know.
19 Q. Yes, Mr. Mandic. To make it clear: There isn't a dispute over
20 the point you raised, that Mr. Krajisnik had discussions with the Muslim
21 community and met Mr. Izetbegovic. There isn't an issue about that. But
22 are you saying that you're not aware that in 1992, and indeed at other
23 times, Mr. Krajisnik was involved in international negotiations in a
24 number of instances in other countries? If you don't know, Mr. Mandic,
25 that's the correct answer.
1 A. At a later stage, after the beginning of the war, I believe
2 Mr. Krajisnik got gradually more and more involved in negotiations and
3 more and more foreigners approached him for negotiations. But if we are
4 discussing the period of the beginning of the war, I believe Mr. Krajisnik
5 was more preoccupied with the Assembly, with the new government, with the
6 internal politics, whereas Mr. Koljevic, Ms. Plavsic, and Radovan Karadzic
7 were in a way more concerned with and dealt with the international
8 community. Later on, however, the situation seemed to normalise.
9 MR. STEWART: My case manager was just reorganising my papers,
10 Your Honour, for me.
11 Q. You described, when you were questioned about the ranking of some
12 of the leading politicians in the Bosnian Serb community, you talked about
13 there being a sort of a dead heat, the phrase that came across, that there
14 was a latent conflict around the position of number 2. Dr. Karadzic
15 being, in your view, the unquestioned number. A latent conflict between
16 Biljana Plavsic and Nikola Koljevic, on one side, and Mr. Krajisnik on the
17 other. Now, I just want to be clear what you're saying, Mr. Mandic, and
18 put this to you: You seem to be describing a sort of double dead heat,
19 that if, in the views that there were of the political set-up, there was a
20 sort of dead heat between Mr. Krajisnik, on the one hand, and Professor
21 Koljevic and Mrs. Plavsic, as a pair, on the other. And then within that
22 pair, there was a sort of further dead heat between Dr. Koljevic and Mrs.
23 Plavsic. Now is -- just first of all ask you: Is that an apt summary?
24 A. Yes, it is. However, the first and the second prime ministers
25 were supported by Dr. Biljana Plavsic and Mr. Nikola Koljevic, whereas
1 Dr. Karadzic supported Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik.
2 Q. Well, supported Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik primarily as his trusted
3 president of the Assembly, presumably.
4 A. Indeed. I believe he trusted him more than anyone else because he
5 was, in political terms, a person that showed most maturity, whereas the
6 other ones were rather vain and wanted to be shown as very important,
7 sitting next to Mr. Karadzic, simply because they came out of what was
8 earlier a joint Presidency.
9 Q. And you described -- you talked about the different kinds of power
10 that Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik had, and I don't want to just go over
11 your evidence time and time again. But specifically in relation to
12 Mr. Krajisnik, and this was at page 78 of the transcript of Tuesday,
13 Tuesday, the 23rd of November, you said: "Mr. Krajisnik was the president
14 and chairman of the Assembly" - obviously right - "and had deputies and
15 presidents of the municipalities under him." So that's what I meant when
16 I said "the influence on people."
17 Now, when you talked about Mr. Krajisnik having deputies and
18 presidents of the municipalities under him, you mean that, do you, simply
19 because a number of the presidents of municipalities were themselves also
21 A. Yes. However, other presidents of the municipalities who were not
22 members of the parliament placed most trust in Mr. Krajisnik when it came
23 to the parliament issues.
24 Q. Well, when you say -- all right. Let's deal with them, then.
25 First of all, how many, if you can say, how many presidents of
1 municipalities -- at the end of March 1992, how many presidents of
2 municipalities do you say were also deputies in the Serb Assembly?
3 A. There were many of them, but I can't give you the exact figure.
4 In many cases, people wore two hats, had both functions at the same time,
5 but how many of them there were, I can't tell you.
6 Q. I'm going to press you, then, for a rough idea. You said you
7 can't give it exactly, Mr. Mandic, and I'm not going to challenge that.
8 But you've raised the point here. Can you give Their Honours a rough
9 idea? Well, first of all, how many deputies were there all together?
10 A. There were 83 of them, I believe.
11 Q. And roughly how many of those do you say were presidents of
13 A. Since Republika Srpska was divided at the time, not only into
14 municipalities but into autonomous districts, a great many deputies headed
15 these regional structures. More than half of the deputies also discharged
16 certain important positions in their respective municipalities: President
17 of the municipality, president of the regional government, and suchlike.
18 MR. STEWART: Would Your Honour give me one moment, please.
19 [Defence counsel confer]
20 MR. STEWART:
21 Q. Mr. Mandic, I'm going to try to speed this up. I'm going to
22 read -- I'll read about eight or ten names, and I'll read them reasonably,
23 not so quickly that I hope everybody can't hear them, but I'm not pausing
24 to ask you questions about each one. I'm going to read off the ten names
25 and then I'm simply going to ask you whether, broadly speaking, you're
1 familiar with those names, not necessarily every single one, but you see
2 what I'm getting at. And the ten names are, and you'll have to forgive my
3 pronunciation, which may offend you, but: Predrag Radic, Zlatko Jokovic,
4 Milorad Vujovic -- just let me finish. Just let me go through eight or
5 ten and then give us the picture, Mr. Mandic. Gojko Klickovic, Radomir
6 Pasic, Rajko Novakovic, Gojko Klickovic, Radomir Pasic, Rajko Novakovic,
7 Ljubisav Simic, Djordje Ristanic, Dusko Kornjaca, Sveto Kovacevic.
8 Then as it happens. Do you broadly speaking know those names? Not
9 every one, but they're pretty familiar to you overall, are they?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And can you say what links them?
12 A. They were presidents of municipalities, Predrag Radic was in Banja
13 Luka, Gojko Klickovic was in Krajina. I don't know the name of the place.
14 Dusko Kornjaca was in -- I can't remember now. Somewhere in Eastern
16 Q. Cajnice?
17 A. Yes, Cajnice. Novakovic was, I believe, in Bijeljina.
18 Q. Mr. Mandic, it's neither a trick nor a quiz show. You're right;
19 they are -- they are, all of them, people who were presidents of
20 municipalities in 1992, and you're absolutely correct, Mr. Predrag Radic
21 is Banja Luka. They are, so everybody knows, they are the ten off-- the
22 first ten in the alphabetical list of municipalities which feature in the
23 indictment in this case.
24 But, Mr. Mandic, the point is this: I've got a list, which is no
25 secret and we can offer this at any convenient point, 37 municipalities
1 that are specifically featured in the indictment in this case, the
2 presidents of those municipalities and two are identified as deputies.
3 One is the president of the municipality of Kotor Varos, Mr. Nedeljko
4 Djekanovic. Did you know him in 1992?
5 A. I don't remember him.
6 Q. Do you know the name?
7 A. The family name sounds familiar, but I don't remember the man.
8 Djekanovic. I do find the name familiar, yes.
9 Q. And the other one is from Sanski Most, also Nedeljko, as it
10 happens, Rasula. Is that somebody that you knew in 1992?
11 A. Yes. It seems to me that he was later to become a minister in one
12 of the governments.
13 Q. So what we've got there is 37 of the - sorry - 35 of the 37
14 municipalities we're talking about where the presidents were not deputies
15 and two where they were. Now, I appreciate, Mr. Mandic, your answer a few
16 minutes ago extended slightly beyond simply presidents, and I'm not out to
17 trick you or be unfair about that. But, first of all, does that pattern
18 as far as presidents of municipalities are concerned, this is 37 of the
19 municipalities, but does that now tie in, with the best of your
20 recollection, that in fact it was only a very tiny number of presidents of
21 municipalities who were also deputies?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And then I think you were suggesting that beyond presidents of
24 municipalities, that there were a number of other people who held other
25 positions in municipalities who were also deputies; correct?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. And -- but just moving for the moment, then, to the presidents of
3 municipalities who were not deputies, which it's pretty clear was
4 overwhelmingly most of them: You say, do you, that Mr. Krajisnik had
5 influence over those people?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. As a group or because he particularly knew specific individuals
8 within that category?
9 A. I think that Mr. Krajisnik wielded great authority and political
10 power among the Serbian people in the earlier Joint Assembly and that
11 those people who later became presidents of municipalities came to consult
12 with Mr. Krajisnik as far as the parliamentary branch of municipal
13 government was concerned.
14 Q. First of all, Mr. Mandic, can we be very clear: Do you know that?
15 Do you know that presidents of municipalities who were not also deputies
16 went to consult or did consult Mr. Krajisnik?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. And what is the basis or source of your own personal knowledge of
20 A. I used to see them at Mr. Krajisnik's in the course of 1992. I
21 even knew some of them personally.
22 Q. You presumably didn't know very many of them personally.
23 A. Almost none of them, actually, personally.
24 Q. You weren't at any of these, if they were meetings, between the
25 presidents of municipalities and Mr. Krajisnik, were you?
1 A. No, I wasn't at any of the meetings. But I had personal knowledge
2 that some presidents of municipalities came to consult with him. I
3 believe it was mostly those from Sarajevo and the area there that went to
4 see Mr. Krajisnik because it wasn't a great deal for them to come to Pale.
5 Q. But you don't know yourself the content of their discussions?
6 A. No.
7 Q. What about going back to those presidents of municipalities who
8 were deputies, and those deputies who were just deputies? Do you say that
9 Mr. Krajisnik had influence over them beyond what would simply be expected
10 from a respected and, by all accounts, energetic and efficient president
11 of the Assembly?
12 A. I've said this a moment ago, and I will repeat it now: In this
13 brief period of time, Mr. Krajisnik grew up to be a man who was held in
14 highest esteem and who held most authority in the eyes of the people. Even
15 from the perspective of the deputies, he was an excellent chairman of
16 these sessions, and people would come to him, approach him to consult him,
17 and I believe that he continued discharging his duties equally well
19 Q. He was an excellent chairman, was he, in the -- well, the
20 qualities of an excellent chairman, I suggest to you, he was an excellent
21 chairman in the sense that he was efficient, businesslike, fair, and
22 approached matters with an equable temperament?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And in his public appearances, and there were appearances on
25 television, weren't there? That's correct?
1 A. That's correct. All of us, myself included, expressed our
2 positions in an emotional way when it came to these inter-ethnic problems.
3 As for Mr. Krajisnik, he approached the topic in a quite different manner,
4 with equanimity that he presented a position and his views when it came to
5 the Serbian side, and the other sides that came to be at war together.
6 Q. In fact, his public pronouncements were conspicuously free of
7 aggressive language, weren't they?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. You gave some evidence about Mr. Karadzic's and Mr. Krajisnik's -
10 they were bracketed together in a lot of the questioning - you gave some
11 evidence about their ability, and of course we're specifically very
12 interested in Mr. Krajisnik in this trial, their ability to influence or
13 control entry into government posts. You remember talking about that in
14 your evidence and in your earlier interviews with the OTP, do you --
15 sorry, with the Prosecution. I beg your pardon.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You yourself were not a party to any significant discussions about
18 government appointments at ministerial level, were you, leaving your own
19 position aside?
20 A. No, I wasn't, since I wasn't a member of the party, I didn't have
21 access to these meetings. It was the political leadership, or rather, the
22 top of the Serbian Democratic Party that decided on these matters and held
24 Q. And there were, so far as you could see, is this right,
25 Mr. Mandic, there were, as there often are in politics, there were
1 informal meetings, informal group discussions of those in leadership
2 positions to discuss prospective appointments?
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. In the case of the newly formed Serb Republic, and Republika
5 Srpska, as it came to be known, it's right, isn't it, that a considerable
6 number, a very high proportion of the government jobs were filled by
7 people who had been engaged in broadly similar activities within the
8 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina before the split?
9 A. Yes. This was especially true of the first government, because
10 all the ministers except for Mr. Nikolic were of Serb ethnicity, including
11 deputy ministers who used to form part of the joint government, were
12 transferred into the government of the Serbian Republic of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina and assigned different functions there.
14 Q. So the first government, then, by the first government, you would
15 carry that right through under Mr. Djeric, would you, right through to
16 when he resigned and Mr. Lukic took over?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. So it follows, then, that, so far as those posts were concerned,
19 where people broadly carried on with similar functions to the ones they'd
20 had under the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that there wasn't a
21 great deal to argue about, there wasn't a great deal to debate, as far as
22 appointments were concerned?
23 A. This was the Council of Ministers that we mentioned a moment ago.
24 All the people who were in the Council of Ministers came from the joint
25 government, and it was from the ranks of those staff that the first
1 government was formed, Mr. Djeric's. Two members became members of the
2 Presidency, president of the Assembly became the president of the Assembly
3 of the Serbian People, and Mr. Djeric was a minister in the joint
4 government of Jure Pelivan's.
5 Q. And you said in your evidence, and this was at page 79 of the
6 transcript on Tuesday, the 23rd of November, you said that if there was --
7 if there had been a divergence of views between Dr. Karadzic and
8 Mr. Krajisnik, then usually it would be Mr. Karadzic's person who would be
9 elected. And you said that was rare. Having identified it as rare, could
10 you -- are you able now -- it's years later, but are you able to recall an
11 example of a particular candidate or prospective government member over
12 whom Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik disagreed?
13 A. To be on the safe side, let's take my case, for instance. I was
14 supposed to be the head of the police, as the most senior police officer
15 from the joint MUP. And at Mr. Karadzic's insistence, Mico Stanisic was
16 appointed to that post, contrary to what Mr. Krajisnik had wanted. This
17 is an example that I can take to be on the safe side.
18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that would be -- it's almost a quarter
19 to. If that were convenient to Your Honours, that would be a suitable
21 JUDGE ORIE: If it is a convenient moment to you, Mr. Stewart,
22 we'll have a break. We'll have a break until 10 minutes past 4.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 3.43 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 4.16 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Mandic into
1 the courtroom. Meanwhile, I take the time. I asked myself why the laptop
2 was not yet on Mr. Krajisnik's desk, where I signed already a few weeks
3 ago. I do understand that the laptop is there, that it's just a matter of
4 a signature for the agreement.
5 MR. STEWART: Well, yes. The signature is not the hard bit,
6 Your Honour. The agreement has raised questions in people's minds. We
7 only had the agreement the last few days. It's obviously been some time
8 in gestation. It's not a three-line document.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I'll then see what happens. But since I
10 signed a couple of weeks ago, I wondered what happened, and I do
11 understand that --
12 MR. STEWART: Yes, well, Your Honour --
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- everyone's full attention at this moment.
14 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That first of all the laptop is there and that the
16 agreement has everyone's full attention.
17 MR. STEWART: Yes, it would to some extent, Your Honour, the
18 problem has perhaps been that over the last few days it hasn't had
19 everyone's full attention. But we'll speed it along as soon as we can,
20 Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then let's now concentrate again on the
22 continuation of the cross-examination of Mr. Mandic.
23 Mr. Mandic, I apologise for being involved in another matter when
24 you entered the courtroom. Mr. Stewart will now resume his
1 MR. STEWART:
2 Q. Mr. Mandic, you -- my microphone. Mr. Mandic, you were played a
3 transcript of a telephone conversation between yourself and Mr. Lugonja.
4 That is at page 80 of Thursday's transcript and page 8680 of the
5 continuous transcript.
6 A. Petar Lugonja.
7 Q. And you were asked about Mr. Prstojevic. In the conversation,
8 this is at page 81 of that transcript, Mr. Lugonja said, after the first
9 fairly robust sentence, he said: "Tomo is pulling to his side because
10 he's from the police. I believe that he's -- that he's mainly right."
11 Then there's Prstojevic, the president of the party and of the Crisis
12 Staff, and there's Kezunovic, the prime minister, you know, and you
13 acknowledged yes. And then Mr. Lugonja said to me it seems this Kezunovic
14 guy is right most of the time.
15 Now, it looks, Mr. Mandic, and say whether this is right, that
16 Mr. Lugonja is explaining to you who Mr. Prstojevic is and who Mr.
17 Kezunovic is. So it certainly looks as if you don't yourself at this
18 point when you're talking to Mr. Lugonja have any personal knowledge of
19 the positions and personalities and issues that are occurring there in
20 Ilidza; is that right?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Yes. He's really having to explain to you from scratch who the
23 people are, what they're up to, what the issue is; right?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I'm trying to find on the Thursday
25 transcript, but --
1 MR. STEWART: Sorry. Did I say Thursday, Your Honour? My
2 apologies if I -- I've done it again, I think, Your Honour. I've taken
3 the wrong day of the week. Tuesday, the 23rd was what I -- I did say
4 Thursday, and I didn't give the date. That's entirely my fault,
5 Your Honour. It's Tuesday, the 23rd.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 MR. STEWART: The continuous transcript reference was probably
9 MR. TIEGER: Actually, you were given an erroneous starting point
10 for the first page of that sequential transcript. It's not 8600, it's
11 8544. The other pages are accurate.
12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we had a system. The system broke
13 down, I think.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't explain it, we'll not understand. It's
15 better. Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
16 MR. STEWART: The system was brilliant. The number was the wrong
17 thing. Yes. I apologise for the wrong date. Tuesday, the 23rd of
19 Q. Sorry, Mr. Mandic. The date issue. But so he was -- he was
20 explaining from scratch to you. The -- and then when he said, and I don't
21 know -- Mr. Mandic, if at some point you need to be refreshed by having
22 this in front of you; in fact, that might be a good idea. It's Exhibit
23 P413, so the witness, obviously, will need the B/C/S version. I'll try to
24 find it as best I can for you, Mr. Mandic. There's a passage that begins,
25 and it's at page 82 of the transcript, 6626. Mr. Lugonja says: "Well,
1 it's impossible fucking hell Koljevic came last night. They closed
2 themselves in there and won't let anyone in. A meeting, pal. What
3 fucking kind of behaviour is that? That's just a bunch of fucking
5 Do you see that passage, Mr. Mandic?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. Mr. Lugonja makes it fairly easy to find, doesn't he. And then
8 you say, Mr. Mandic: "Well, yeah. They're running to the boss. All
9 right. I'll talk to Koljevic and up there to Karadzic."
10 When you say "Well, yeah. They're running to the boss," who are
11 you talking about there?
12 A. Dr. Karadzic.
13 Q. And did you understand, when Mr. Lugonja was saying: "They closed
14 themselves in there and won't let anyone in," who it was who had closed
15 themselves in?
16 A. I think he said it was Kezunovic, Tomo Kovac, and this Prstojevic
17 person. It was the Crisis Staff, the leadership of the municipality of
18 Ilidza at the time.
19 Q. So was it that Mr. Koljevic had been shut out? Is that what you
20 understood? Or that he'd come along in response to a complaint about them
21 closing themselves? Or don't you know?
22 A. It appears to me that they locked themselves in with Koljevic and
23 didn't allow Petar Lugonja to attend that meeting. I was not let in on
24 those events and the staffing, the appointments, but I had known Petar
25 Lugonja for many years, and he was trying to tell me about some problems
1 in Ilidza, and he was trying to get me, as deputy minister of MUP, or
2 minister of justice, to get some people around Karadzic to listen to
3 reason and to help solve these problems at Ilidza.
4 It was rather a private line of communication then, unofficial
5 line, because Pero and I had been friends for ten years before the war.
6 Q. Was it -- was this an issue that you were -- he was a friend of
7 yours, but was it one that you were rather reluctant to get drawn into?
8 A. Before the war, he was part of the inner circle of the leadership
9 of the Serbian Democratic Party and the structures of power in Ilidza, and
10 he didn't exactly find his place in the struggle for power that ensued
11 after the war, and he was trying to present his view of the government in
12 Ilidza through me, as his friend, while Prstojevic and his entourage were
13 standing in his way.
14 Q. Yes, Mr. Mandic. Apologies for interrupting. Ms. Cmeric suggests
15 that the -- you -- in the end you received the question in the wrong form.
16 It was your reluctance that I was asking about. I think you may have got
17 it as Mr. Lugonja's reluctance, so I'll repeat it. Was this an issue that
18 you, Mr. Mandic, were rather reluctant to get drawn into?
19 A. Well, I didn't have any official power to resolve this conflict in
20 Ilidza, but I was trying to use my authority to help Petar Lugonja to get
21 to the people at the top and tell them what the real situation was, like
22 at Ilidza, because Kezunovic and to some extent Tomo Kovac were preventing
23 him from doing that. And after that, I heard an intercept of a
24 conversation between me and Tomo Kovac, which seems to be a continuation
25 of this conversation.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you were rather reluctant to
2 get drawn into. Now you're explaining what happened. But the question
3 was whether you were reluctant.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
6 MR. STEWART:
7 Q. What's the answer, please, Mr. Mandic? Well, you said "right,"
8 but I didn't know whether you were acknowledging the question or giving
9 the answer. So can we be clear: Were you reluctant to be drawn into this
10 particular issue?
11 A. I was. I was reluctant.
12 Q. Did you, in fact, take up the issue with either or both of
13 Mr. Koljevic and Dr. Karadzic?
14 A. I don't remember.
15 Q. And so he having asked to have that problem resolved, if you don't
16 remember -- you're not aware of Mr. Lugonja having had any direct contact
17 himself over this issue with either Mr. Koljevic or Dr. Karadzic, are you?
18 A. I don't think he actually managed to reach these two men, and very
19 soon after this conversation he left Ilidza for Belgrade.
20 Q. So it's at least quite possible that nobody took up this issue at
21 all with Mr. Koljevic or Dr. Karadzic?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. If you don't know, then would you agree that it's possible?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You -- Mr. Prstojevic was a deputy in the Assembly. I don't think
1 there's an issue about that. You were asked whether he had a relationship
2 with Mr. Krajisnik, was he close to Mr. Krajisnik. And then you said: "I
3 think --"
4 MR. STEWART: Excuse me one moment, Your Honour.
5 Q. I'm going to retract something I just put to you, Mr. Prstojevic
6 [sic], because you were asked -- this is at --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Where Mr. Stewart said Mr. Prstojevic, he meant
8 Mr. Mandic.
9 MR. STEWART: I meant Mr. Mandic, of course I did. Thank you very
11 Q. Mr. Mandic, you were asked, and this was at page 84 of the
12 transcript, so that's 8628: "Was Mr. Prstojevic a deputy in the
13 Assembly?" And you said yes. In fact, I put it to you that he was not a
14 deputy in the Assembly. So thinking about it now, I suppose question
15 number one is: Do you accept you could have been wrong in asserting that
16 he was a deputy?
17 A. I do, but I still saw him at Assembly sessions.
18 Q. And when you were asked: "Did he --" on that same page: "Did he,
19 Mr. Prstojevic, have a relationship with Mr. Krajisnik? Was he close to
20 Mr. Krajisnik?" Your answer was: "I think that Mr. Krajisnik had major
21 influence over Mr. Prstojevic as a deputy in the Assembly. Well, on the
22 footing, and it's a checkable fact, Mr. Mandic, so let's proceed on the
23 footing that Mr. Prstojevic was not a deputy in the Assembly, would you
24 accept, then, that Mr. Krajisnik did not have major influence over
25 Mr. Prstojevic?
1 A. No.
2 Q. So where did Mr. Krajisnik's major influence over Mr. Prstojevic
3 come from?
4 A. Very often, Mr. Prstojevic would come to see the president of the
5 Assembly for consultations, and it seems to me also that they knew each
6 other and met frequently within the party, at party meetings.
7 Mr. Krajisnik is from Rajlovac and Mr. Prstojevic is from Ilidza. I'm
8 certain that Mr. Prstojevic respected Mr. Krajisnik, both as speaker of
9 the Assembly and as one of the leaders and influential politicians within
10 the Serbian People.
11 Q. Mr. Mandic, let's be clear about different things. I don't need
12 or wish to challenge your assertion that Mr. Prstojevic respected
13 Mr. Krajisnik. I don't have an issue about that. But I'm asking you
14 about the source of what you -- or basis of what you describe as "major
16 Now, what are you able to tell the Trial Chamber from your own
17 knowledge about the degree of influence that Mr. Krajisnik had over
18 Mr. Prstojevic?
19 A. Since I really thought that he was a deputy in the Assembly, a
20 president of a municipality, a man from Sarajevo who frequently went to
21 Pale for consultations, I believed, in view of his frequent conversations
22 with Mr. Krajisnik, that he bowed to his advice. That's what I meant.
23 Q. Mr. Mandic, would you agree: It seems to follow from the fact
24 that you didn't even know that Mr. Prstojevic was not a deputy, that you
25 can't have been that familiar with Mr. Prstojevic and his political
1 connections? Do you agree?
2 A. Correct. It was an inference I made from my personal
4 Q. You referred -- this is at page 88 of the transcript. Same day.
5 We haven't left that day. You referred to great animosity on the part of
6 Mr. Djeric vis-a-vis Mr. Krajisnik, and that he thought - and "he" is
7 obviously Mr. Djeric - he thought that, as prime minister, he should
8 exercise a great deal more of power and that he should then act in
9 accordance with government decisions.
10 Now, Mr. Mandic, did you actually witness yourself in some way
11 great animosity on the part of Mr. Djeric towards Mr. Krajisnik?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And when do you say that started?
14 A. It seems to me it started immediately. When I say "immediately,"
15 I mean as soon as the war began, and when the first government and the
16 first Serbian Assembly were established.
17 Q. And how did it -- how did it manifest itself that you witnessed?
18 A. Well, I, as member of the cabinet, attended many cabinet sessions
19 and I communicated with the prime minister. And in a way, he was very
20 derisive about certain positions held by Mr. Krajisnik and certain
21 decisions made by him. He viewed them as insufficiently good or
22 insufficiently mature or, alternatively, as interfering with his own power
23 or work, that kind of thing.
24 Q. Can you give a specific example of something which provoked some
25 hostility or disparagement or animosity towards Mr. Krajisnik?
1 A. I can't recall a specific example, but I think at the very outset,
2 Mr. Djeric sided with Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic in their condemnation
3 of and resistance towards Mr. Krajisnik, which was later felt through the
4 institution of the government and the ministries.
5 Q. Was it personal or political, if you -- do you accept and
6 understand the distinction that I'm putting? Apparently you do. So was
7 it personal or political?
8 A. It seems to me it was of a personal nature.
9 Q. Did you ever notice any corresponding hostility by Mr. Krajisnik
10 toward Mr. Djeric?
11 A. No.
12 Q. There was conflict, wasn't there, between Mr. Djeric, on the one
13 hand, and you and Mr. Stanisic, on the other?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What was the -- well, I suppose I'd better start in this way. Was
16 the -- I had said there was conflict between Mr. Djeric be, on the one
17 hand, and you and Mr. Stanisic, on the other. You please tell the Trial
18 Chamber, Mr. Mandic, is it necessary to draw a distinction between you and
19 Mr. Stanisic for these purposes, or can we proceed on the basis that in
20 this area of conflict with Mr. Djeric, you and Mr. Stanisic basically
21 stood as one?
22 A. I can say in my own name that I thought those professional
23 professors to be irresponsible, I mean Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic, and
24 to some extent Mr. Djeric, who was a real professor, an academic person,
25 and I expressed that at meetings, during my contacts with them, and my
1 personal relations with them, which disrupted our relations.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, may I again ask you to listen carefully
3 to the question. The question was whether you and Mr. Stanisic basically
4 stood as one. And I didn't hear any answer to that question specifically.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. We were not -- we did not stand
6 as one.
7 MR. STEWART:
8 Q. Yes. I should make it clear, Mr. Mandic, and with respect,
9 Your Honour, that I qualified it with "for these purposes." I wasn't
10 intending or attempting to elicit from you some general statement that you
11 and Mr. Stanisic were always the same on every issue. In relation to
12 conflict between Mr. Djeric, on the one hand, and you and Mr. Stanisic, I
13 was just wishing to start by knowing whether we should draw a distinction
14 between his conflict with you and his conflict with Mr. Stanisic, or
15 whether, for the purposes of this particular issue, we can treat you and
16 Mr. Stanisic as one.
17 A. Mr. Stanisic, as minister of the interior of the MUP, was more
18 accountable to the head of state and the command of the army, whereas I
19 was reporting exclusively to the government, that is, Mr. Djeric. So our
20 conflicts were not identical. We did not have these conflicts on
21 identical grounds.
22 Q. So the conflict between Mr. Djeric and Mr. Stanisic, what was the
23 source or basis of that?
24 A. Well, the basis of that conflict was that Mr. Stanisic, as
25 minister of the MUP, was answerable mostly to the head of state and the
1 commander of the army, that is, the chief of General Staff, and to a much
2 lesser extent to the prime minister. For instance, Mr. Djeric did not
3 agree that without his consent, the police should be able to mount an
4 action or take any step, whereas Mr. Stanisic thought such consent
5 unnecessary, and he only sought the agreement of the president of the
6 Republic or the chief of the General Staff. I believe that is the essence
7 of the conflict. It was basically a conflict between civilian authorities
8 and military authorities.
9 Q. On his side, did you see whether Mr. Krajisnik supported or
10 opposed Mr. Djeric in his position as prime minister?
11 A. I didn't really notice that Mr. Krajisnik took any specific
12 position. I don't think he was involved, or he didn't want to be drawn in
13 to that conflict. If you mean the relationship between Stanisic and
15 Q. You said, and this is at the top of page 89 on the 23rd of
16 November, which is 8643, you said that: "For a while, he" - that's
17 Mr. Djeric - "didn't even want to communicate with Mr. Krajisnik."
18 Was that expressed to you by Mr. Djeric?
19 A. No. He didn't say that in so many words, but I could notice that
20 he avoided speaking to or meeting with Mr. Krajisnik.
21 Q. You don't know, do you, Mr. Mandic, from your own personal
22 knowledge, whether in fact Mr. Djeric achieved a practice of
23 non-communication with Mr. Krajisnik for any period?
24 A. No, I don't.
25 Q. And you were asked, on the same page, about the reasons why
1 Mr. Djeric left his position as prime minister. The -- now, first of all,
2 this is correct, isn't it, that there were 20 signatories produced, or 20
3 signatures produced within the Assembly to get rid of Mr. Djeric? Do you
4 remember that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was there -- do you remember: Was there a particular, specific
7 issue, or was that a reflection of some fairly general dissatisfaction
8 with Mr. Djeric?
9 A. I think there was a misunderstanding and differences on both
10 sides, from the deputies, on the one hand, and Mr. Djeric, on the other. I
11 think it was at the Zvornik Assembly session, held on the 16th of
12 November, when Prime Minister Djeric, after several hours of discussion,
13 submitted his resignation.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters' addition. Witness said
15 irrevocable resignation.
16 MR. STEWART:
17 Q. Yes. In your last answer, Mr. Mandic, did you include a reference
18 to a dissatisfaction?
19 A. Who do you have in mind, Mr. Stewart? You mean in reference to
20 the deputies or to Mr. Djeric?
21 Q. Well, I'll explain. What's happened is that the answer which I'm
22 reading from the English transcript as from line 9: "I think there was a
23 misunderstanding and differences on both sides." It's suggested to me
24 that your answer was: "I think there was dissatisfaction and differences
25 on both sides."
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And, well, in fact the 20 -- it was a petition of sorts and the 20
3 signatories who wished to get rid of Mr. Djeric, say -- they were, as you
4 have already indicated to the Trial Chamber, they were successful, weren't
6 A. I think it was Mr. Djeric who submitted his resignation, rather
7 than having been removed.
8 Q. Well, he jumped, because he was about to be pushed, didn't he?
9 A. I don't remember.
10 Q. You gave some evidence at page 92, 8636, you gave some evidence
11 about Mr. Krajisnik and particular people who enjoyed his confidence, and
12 you identified some of them. And what you said there was: "Well" -- you
13 were asked to identify them, and you said: "Well, for the most part, they
14 were deputies from the pre-war Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina and
15 presidents of municipalities who were appointed to those positions at the
16 beginning of the war."
17 And then the particular names you gave were Professor Vojislav
18 Maksimovic, Petar Cancar, and Velibor Ostojic. And you continued: "And
19 these people who were involved in parliamentary work before the war and at
20 the beginning of the war, inter alia."
21 Professor Maksimovic, what do you say from your observation, your
22 knowledge, what was the basis of a particular relationship of confidence
23 between Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Maksimovic?
24 A. Professor Maksimovic was head of the club of deputies of the SDS
25 and was a deputy of the pre-war parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
1 Q. So Mr. Krajisnik, of course, being the president of the pre-war
2 Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, obviously knew Professor Maksimovic
3 from that time?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What about Mr. Cancar, Petar Cancar?
6 A. I believe that Mr. Cancar was also a deputy in the pre-war
7 Assembly and chairman of one of the councils of the pre-war Assembly.
8 Later on, he became one of the key people in the parliament of the Serbian
9 people, and for a while he was also a minister of justice, I believe.
10 Q. Much later on, presumably, minister of justice.
11 A. Yes. I believe it was much later.
12 Q. And his key position in the Assembly, do you mean any sort of
13 formal position or just that he was an active, respected member?
14 A. I think that Petar Cancar was chairman of one of the councils in
15 the pre-war Assembly. It was -- or rather, the chamber. It was the
16 chamber of the peoples. I don't know which of the two parliament
17 chambers, but he must have been there for the speaker of one of the
18 chambers of the pre-war Assembly.
19 Q. And Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Velibor Ostojic, the basis of -- of his
20 relationship of confidence, as you suggested, with Mr. Krajisnik?
21 A. I recalled Mr. Ostojic at that moment because he was the -- one of
22 those three people from Foca who was the minister of information in the
23 pre-war government and he was minister of information later on as well. I
24 believe it was in the first government. He was later on to become a
25 deputy prime minister.
1 Q. Mr. Mandic, perhaps you could tell the Trial Chamber this. Well,
2 let me first put this to you: Mr. Krajisnik you have described as being a
3 respected, efficient, fair president of the Assembly, and he had been the
4 same, had he, in terms of efficiency, energy, fairness, equable
5 temperament, he'd been the same, had he, in his position as the president
6 of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly; is that right? He'd shown the
7 same qualities, had he, and the same abilities?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. So do you agree: It would have been astounding if, over a period,
10 he hadn't developed relationships of confidence with at least a
11 significant number of members of the Assembly over which he presided? Do
12 you agree? He'd be a hopeless president, wouldn't he, if he didn't manage
13 to achieve at least that much?
14 A. I was talking at the time about three persons in whom
15 Mr. Krajisnik in the beginning of the war placed most trust, who were
16 closest to him in terms of politics, and he went along well with them.
17 They were people of Mr. Krajisnik's confidence.
18 Q. Well, let's -- perhaps we can clear something up here, then. So
19 when you were asked to identify people who enjoyed Mr. Krajisnik's
20 confidence, those three gentlemen - Mr. Maksimovic, Mr. Cancar, and
21 Mr. Ostojic - you put those as three gentlemen who enjoyed particular
22 clear and strong confidence of Mr. Krajisnik?
23 A. Among others, yes. In that particular moment, I thought of those
24 three people. I could have mentioned some others too. I mentioned them
25 because Cancar and Mr. Maksimovic were deputies, whereas Mr. Ostojic was a
1 member of the pre-war government. And that's why I thought of them when
2 Mr. Prosecutor asked of me to mention some names. That's when I recalled
3 these three men, who were certainly very close associates of
4 Mr. Krajisnik's.
5 Q. In that case, Mr. Mandic, would you be able -- then you said you
6 could mention other names. Would you be able to give names of other
7 people who enjoyed Mr. Krajisnik's special confidence, rather than -- if
8 you see the distinction I'm suggesting, as opposed to members of the
9 Assembly with whom it was natural that a president might establish a
10 decent working relationship, so people with whom he enjoyed some clear,
11 special degree of confidence?
12 A. I think he had very special relations with members of his cabinet,
13 with myself, for instance, he had very good relations on a very fair
14 footing, and he placed a lot of confidence in them.
15 Q. Yes.
16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we suggest that what came across in the
17 English interpretation as "cabinet" would be better translated as
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. -- Yes. Mr. Krajisnik -- Mr. Stewart,
20 well, you made a mistake. I do the same. I apologise. I'd rather not
21 have a new translation put in place for what you considered a wrong one,
22 but verify with the witness, say: When you said that he had a special
23 relation with members of, what did you say. Then the interpreters will
24 have an opportunity. Otherwise it is suggested to the witness what you at
25 least expect would be the proper translation, and I think we should keep
1 that -- I try to draw the attention of the Defence to this before, but it
2 might have been Ms. Loukas. So we seek with the witness to repeat what he
3 said, and if there then is a remaining issue, the interpreters will be
4 aware that there might be a translation issue and we'll try to sort it out
5 in that way preferably.
6 MR. STEWART: Yes. I take the point, Your Honours, indeed. Well,
7 I -- it doesn't work so well in this particular case, but I apologise for
8 that. But I wonder, Your Honour, if therefore we might test and run
9 through this one as best we can.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do not think that it's a very -- so specific
11 that we should repeat it, but just for the future. Please proceed.
12 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, perhaps I might just put it,
13 because I believe in this case it is not all that contentious.
14 Q. When you described, Mr. Mandic, Mr. Krajisnik as having very
15 special relations, you meant he had very special relations with people of
16 his parliamentary office?
17 A. I meant the people who cooperated with him, worked with him, Milos
18 Savic, Nenad Radovic, people who were his immediate associates. I'm
19 talking about his office, his associates who were with him since the
20 beginning of the war.
21 Q. You described a degree of rivalry between Mr. Krajisnik and
22 Mr. Karadzic, but on that same page, page 92, you said -- you were asked:
23 "Later, after, beyond 1992, did some rivalry -- did any rivalry between
24 Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik begin to develop -- well, begin to develop
25 or appear to develop?" And you answered: "My personal opinion is that
1 after a few years of the war, a few years into the war, there was a kind
2 of rivalry that sprang up in terms of the exercise of power."
3 Mr. Mandic, a few years is -- well, it's a few years. When you
4 say that a kind of rivalry sprang up, casting your mind back as best you
5 can, when do you say that this rivalry first emerged, as you describe it?
6 A. The rivalry was, so it seems, created by the people in the
7 government and in the president's office. It seems to have originated
8 from the entourage, not, having, several years into the war, but rather
9 after a few months of the war, that is, speaking of Mr. Karadzic and
10 Mr. Krajisnik's entourage.
11 Q. Well, Mr. Mandic, I have to ask you, therefore, why you've
12 specifically told the Trial Chamber earlier that it was after a few years
13 of the war?
14 A. It must have been a slip of the tongue, because the war lasted
15 some three years or so. I mostly referred to 1991 and 1992, so there must
16 have been an error.
17 Q. Well, Mr. Mandic, I'm inviting you to think carefully, because
18 there's a double slip of the tongue because your answer was: "My personal
19 opinion is that after a few years of the war, a few years into the war,
20 there was a kind of rivalry." So when do you now say -- let's be as
21 specific as we can, since there's a change here - when do you now say that
22 this rivalry first began to appear?
23 A. In my opinion, after the first year of the war.
24 Q. And do you start the war, in your mind, when?
25 A. In the beginning of 1992.
1 Q. So this rivalry began to emerge, did it, in -- sometime in the
2 first half of 1993?
3 A. That's right. Or in late 1992. But somewhere around a year into
4 the war.
5 Q. And you noticed this yourself, did you?
6 A. Not I myself, but some people observed this, and we discussed this
7 matter quite frequently, the relationship between the president of the
8 Assembly and the president of Republika Srpska.
9 Q. You were in Belgrade by that time; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was some of this on the level of political gossip?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So what in these discussions, as they clearly were, then, what --
14 was something generally identified as the root cause of this rivalry?
15 A. It seems that the roots lay in the problems related to the
16 staffing, at all levels of government in Republika Srpska, and in the
17 relations between Republika Srpska and Serbia.
18 Q. All right. Let's look at each of those, then. The problems
19 related to staffing in Republika Srpska. So you're saying from these
20 discussions, it appeared to you that there was some pronounced difference
21 of view, was there, between Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. Can you summarise or encapsulate that difference of view in some
25 A. In my conversations with Mr. Krajisnik, I often mentioned this,
1 also when talking to others, that whenever there would be some key persons
2 appointed into the government or into public companies or other functions,
3 Mr. Krajisnik would, under the influence of -- Mr. Krajisnik, would be
4 dissatisfied with that appointment. Mr. Karadzic would be backed by
5 Ms. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic whenever it came to the appointments into
6 public companies, some people with qualifications, or into ministerial
7 positions in the government.
8 Q. And then the other limb, the other root, if you like, relations
9 between Republika Srpska and Serbia: Again, can you summarise or
10 encapsulate that difference of view in some way?
11 A. Dr. Karadzic relied far more on the policies of Mr. Milosevic,
12 whereas Mr. Krajisnik was in favour of an autonomous policy to be pursued
13 by Republika Srpska, both vis-a-vis the Federation, that is, the other
14 warring party, and in terms of its foreign policy. I believe that the
15 differences of opinion in that area were far greater. In my personal
16 opinion, Dr. Karadzic was greatly influenced by Mr. Milosevic, and that
17 was not the case with Mr. Krajisnik.
18 Q. And your own -- you've described yourself as being close to
19 Mr. Krajisnik. Now, the evidence you have given today and earlier I think
20 as well in this trial, you've told the Trial Chamber you actually didn't
21 know Mr. Krajisnik early in 1991, so that such closeness as you developed
22 was over the next year. Did that -- well, first of all, how -- what would
23 you say was the point at which your political relationship to
24 Mr. Krajisnik was at its closest?
25 A. I never talked of the political views, but rather about the
1 relationship between the two persons. When those critical months of the
2 beginning of the war came, I frequently consulted with Mr. Krajisnik, who
3 was at least to me, in my opinion, the most serious politician in Bosnia
4 and Herzegovina at the time, unlike Mr. Nikola Koljevic and Ms. Biljana
5 Plavsic, who, for instance, would freeze her position in the Presidency of
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina and then go on some private errands visiting
7 monasteries, churches, and so on. Unlike her, Mr. Krajisnik tried to help
8 me in any way he could in the different relations existing within the
9 pre-war MUP and in developing the new MUP, or rather, the new justice
11 Q. So leaving aside any label of personal or political, but taking
12 your own description of your relations with Mr. Krajisnik, as you've just
13 given it, when do you say was the point at which your relationship to
14 Mr. Krajisnik reached its closest?
15 A. I think this was the end of 1991, and it was also throughout the
16 war, but also in the aftermath of the war.
17 Q. And in fact, you did develop quite a warm personal relationship
18 with Mr. Krajisnik, didn't you?
19 A. We were not close in terms of being friends or on visiting terms.
20 It was a relationship of respect, particularly vis-a-vis Mr. Krajisnik. I
21 knew that he was going to do anything possible, if it was within his
22 power, to solve any matters that I approached him with, and that was true
23 for any walks of life, from private matters to state matters.
24 Q. You gave some evidence and you were asked questions -- this is on
25 Wednesday, the 24th of November. This is at page 26, which is going to be
1 8663 of the continuous transcript. You were asked about a way in which
2 financial support had been given in relation to Sokolac when apparently
3 officially the funding for the police station in Sokolac had been
4 suspended. You recall that evidence? I'll remind you of it if you want,
5 Mr. Mandic.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Yes, you remember, or --
8 A. If you can refresh my memory, yes, please do.
9 Q. Yes, I will, then. You were --
10 A. Yes, please remind me.
11 Q. Yes. I'll give you the same refresher that Mr. Tieger gave you,
12 in fact, from your interview. You said: "At the time I had a special
13 cash register as the head of one of the ministry departments and since
14 Zoran Cvijetic, God rest his soul, was the head of police in Sokolac, who
15 jumped before all of us and didn't exactly behave by the agreed policy.
16 He fired all employees of Muslim nationality before everybody else did,
17 and as a result, the police station in Sokolac was suspended. Of course,
18 people had to receive their salaries, to buy fuel and everything else,
19 because they didn't have means to live and work. In the agreement with
20 Mico Stanisic, who -- he was already Serbian minister of Serbian MUP, but
21 with the knowledge of Radovan Karadzic, I transferred the means from that
22 cash register to Sokolac. That was to cover the salaries, the fuel, and
23 all that. That was very risky move which I hid in the paperwork and
24 decisions, saying that some of it went to Banja Luka, some of it to
25 Medici, and that was the way we kept the station going for two months."
1 And then you did in your evidence go on to say that it wasn't
2 quite -- it wasn't exactly like that. But, Mr. Mandic, I'm not -- at the
3 moment, I'm not intent on exploring the differences between your interview
4 and your evidence and getting into the details of that. My question is a
5 very simple one. Mr. Krajisnik wasn't involved in any of this, was he,
6 and didn't have any knowledge about any of this?
7 A. No, he didn't.
8 Q. You were asked a number of questions about Exhibit 420, which I
9 wonder if you can be given. That is a document which you do acknowledge
10 signing, don't you, Mr. Mandic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And you said specifically, and this is at page 41, 8678, that you
13 were instructed by the newly appointed minister of the interior, Mico
14 Stanisic, to send this kind of telegram, and that's what I did."
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you have given evidence that, as far as you were concerned,
17 this was in accordance with decisions which had already been taken on
18 behalf of the Serbian people. But Mr. Krajisnik himself had no individual
19 part in the preparation and dissemination of this particular document, did
21 A. You're right. At that moment, Mr. Krajisnik was in Lisbon,
22 together with Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, and I believe Mate
23 Boban, where they signed the so-called Cutileiro Plan. This plan verified
24 the creation of armies and police forces based on ethnicity, and
25 Mr. Stanisic informed me about this. He said that in keeping with the
1 decisions of the Assembly and the enactments stated in the dispatch, I was
2 supposed to circulate this across the territory to all police stations and
3 all autonomous regions.
4 Q. Well, I suppose my first point, Mr. Mandic, it may seem like a
5 digression: You'd agree that there has now come into your head very
6 specifically a recollection that Mr. Krajisnik was involved in
7 international negotiations and was at times abroad on those negotiations?
8 That's clear, isn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what do you say Mr. Stanisic -- what information did
11 Mr. Stanisic give you that you needed, in other words, that you didn't
12 already have?
13 A. Well, I knew about the decisions of the Assembly of the Serbian
14 People and I knew about the enactment of this constitution of the Serbian
15 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as well as the enactment of the law on
16 Internal Affairs, which I stated, enumerated in this dispatch. He only
17 informed me that the Cutileiro Plan was initialled in Lisbon and that I
18 was to circulate this dispatch to all field offices in Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina, which I did.
20 Q. And you -- this is back at page 11, which is 8648 - you referred
21 to decision of the Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina
22 with regard to the establishment of a Serbian MUP. When do you say that
23 decision had been reached?
24 A. The dispatch says at a session held on the 27th of March, 1992.
25 Q. That was promulgating the constitution of the Serbian Republic.
1 That's what it records. That's what you're talking about; is that right?
2 A. Yes. This session also adopted the law on Internal Affairs.
3 Q. And it's the law on Internal Affairs which is applicable here;
4 that's what you're talking about, are you?
5 A. Yes. It was enacted by the Assembly of the Serbian People.
6 Q. So at page 11, the page we just referred to, you were talking
7 about Mr. Radovic speaking after Mr. Stanisic at the meeting held in Banja
8 Luka on the 11th of February, and you said: "Mr. Radovic speaking after
9 Mr. Stanisic, discussed the decision of the Assembly of the Serbian People
10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina with regard to the establishment of a Serbian MUP."
11 You clearly couldn't have been talking about a decision of the
12 27th of March, because that hadn't arrived yet, so you were talking about
13 some other decision prior to the 11th of February, were you?
14 A. Would you please clarify that, Mr. Stewart?
15 Q. The passage that I cited to you a few minutes ago, where you had
16 talked about discussion of the decision of the Assembly of the Serbian
17 People of Bosnia-Herzegovina with regard to the establishment of a Serbian
18 MUP, came in a question. The question, page 11, the reference I've
19 already given, Mr. Radovic, speaking after Mr. Stanisic, and you were
20 talking about the meeting of the 11th of February, 1992. It was put to
21 you by Mr. Tieger: "Mr. Radovic, speaking after Mr. Stanisic, discussed
22 the decision of the Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia-Herzegovina
23 with regard to the establishment of a Serbian MUP?" And you said:
24 "Correct. Before this meeting, the Assembly of the Serb People in the
25 Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina reached a decision on the
1 establishment of a Serb MUP, and I think that on that occasion, a law was
2 passed, a law on the MUP."
3 So your recollection was that the decision and the law on the MUP
4 had arisen before the 11th of February. That was your recollection,
5 wasn't it?
6 A. I must have been mistaken about the dates. I would be grateful if
7 you could give me the transcript of the session in Banja Luka, and then
8 maybe I would be able to explain. Is it the case that a decision was made
9 to do something, or the law was enacted?
10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm trying to remember exactly when we
11 have the break. I think this is about the time when we normal --
12 JUDGE ORIE: This is approximately the time when we usually have
13 the break. The witness would like to have a look at the transcript. I
14 don't know whether I --
15 MR. STEWART: Well, that's what I had in mind, Your Honour. It
16 seemed more convenient to have the break.
17 JUDGE ORIE: To find that during the break, yes.
18 MR. STEWART: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have a break until five minutes to 6.00.
20 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
21 MR. TIEGER: Just for the benefit of the registrar, that's Exhibit
22 415, I believe.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
24 --- Recess taken at 5.34 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: May the witness be brought into the courtroom.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
4 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Q. Mr. Mandic, you asked to have an opportunity, which it's fair that
6 you should have, to refresh your recollection in relation to the meeting
7 held in Banja Luka on the 11th of February, 1992, and that is Exhibit 415.
8 The very first thing that I'm going to ask you to do, Mr. Mandic, if I
9 may, and following something His Honour Judge Orie said before the break,
10 is to invite you to read the second paragraph, which appears under the
11 heading of the name of Mr. Stanisic. Do you see that? Just fairly
12 shortly down the first page, there's a reference to Mr. Stanisic and then
13 there's a paragraph which starts in English: "The Ministerial Council's
14 position ..." And I'm going to invite you just to read the first sentence
15 of the next -- well, it's all one sentence, actually -- to read the next
16 paragraph, the one that begins: "The MUP ..."
17 A. The Ministry of the Interior, MUP, of the SRBH.
18 Q. Yes. If you could continue, please. Sorry. I beg your pardon,
19 Mr. Mandic. If you'll read it out loud. I'm so sorry. If you could read
20 the whole of that paragraph out loud, until I invite you to stop.
21 A. "The MUP of the SRBH is held by the Muslims rather than by the
22 Serbs, contrary to what the general public is being led to believe,
23 because the SDA has about 1.000 people in reserve forces of the police in
24 the Stari Grad police station, out of whom only 30 or so are Serbs, who
25 almost do not even have uniforms, unlike the others, who are armed with
1 the most modern weapons."
2 Q. Yes. You can --
3 A. "Work should be done --"
4 Q. You can stop, Mr. Mandic. We've got past the critical point.
5 MR. STEWART: Excuse me one moment, Your Honour.
6 [Defence counsel confer]
7 MR. STEWART:
8 Q. Mr. Mandic, I apologise. I'm trying to avoid troubling you to
9 also be a linguistic expert, though I'm sure you can be in appropriate
10 circumstances. But the first few words which appear in the Serbian as
11 "MUP SRBIH," "dijele muslimani," perhaps you could just tell the Trial
12 Chamber what's the sense of "dijele"?
13 A. A couple of days ago, when answering the questions of the
14 Prosecution, I said that when nationalist parties came into power, they
15 demanded that the Ministry of the Interior should have the same structure
16 as the national structure of the Bosnia-Herzegovinian. If, for instance,
17 there was a 35 per cent Muslim population in Bosnia-Herzegovina, there
18 should be 35 per cent of Muslim staff on the police. At that moment, most
19 of the policemen were Serbs, and the Party of Democratic Action, the SDA,
20 that is, the government, demanded that police stations be reinforced from
21 the ethnic community of Muslims, parallel with dismissing Serb policemen,
22 in order to reflect the ratio of the ethnic communities within the
23 country. I hope I have managed to explain.
24 Q. Yes. Mr. Mandic.
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I ask through Your Honour: The
1 question -- what's arisen is a question as to the appropriateness of the
2 translation that we're reading in 415, in the first line or two of that
3 paragraph. I'm afraid I don't know, Your Honour, whether the
4 interpreters' booth are doing a fresh translation now or whether they're
5 reading from that. Because that may indicate the difficulty. It's being
6 suggested to me that the translation we're seeing in the document is not
7 correct, but we're getting the same translation again.
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apology. We did read this word
9 out rather than interpreting it, which was a mistake, and the word is
10 actually "is being divided by the Muslims, not held by the Muslims.
11 MR. STEWART: The apology is due from me not making it absolutely
12 clear what I was inviting the interpreters to do and the purpose of the
13 exercise. So thank you very much, interpreters.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could I then just ask whether the translation would
15 be that the -- I'll just try to understand it. That the MUP of the
16 socialist Republic BiH is divided rather by the Muslims than by the Serbs.
17 Is that a correct understanding of --
18 MR. STEWART: Being divided, I think what was suggested,
19 Your Honour.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Being divided by the Muslims rather than by the
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now it's clear.
23 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MR. STEWART: Sorry. That took a few moments.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We have spent moments less efficiently. Please
3 MR. STEWART:
4 Q. So we've got that cleared up, Mr. Mandic. And then you were
5 there, of course, at this meeting, and your -- well, he was your boss,
6 wasn't he, really, Mr. Stanisic, was saying that -- the paragraph after
7 that: "Work should be done on the organisation of a Serbian MUP, starting
8 with municipal and regional branches." Now, at that point, Mr. Mandic, it
9 sounds - say whether this is wrong - it sounds as if this is being put
10 forward by Mr. Stanisic as a proposal that there should be a separate
11 Serbian MUP.
12 A. I think Stanisic was conveying here the position of the
13 Ministerial Council stated in the first paragraph.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, before Mr. Stewart proceeds, a small
16 correction. I don't think the evidence reflects that Mr. Stanisic was
17 Mr. Mandic's boss at this stage.
18 MR. STEWART: Yes. I beg your pardon. I think that is right,
19 actually. Yes. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. STEWART: I jumped ahead as far as that goes.
22 Q. The -- when we look at Mr. Radovic's remark, it's quite a short
23 intervention by Mr. Radovic below that, which you had referred to, he
24 informed those present that the Assembly of the Serbian Republic of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina adopted a decision on the establishment of Serbian MUP
1 and he presented the text and the content thereof to the attendees.
2 We're not a hundred per cent sure about the Serbian there,
3 Mr. Mandic, but is it your recollection that Mr. Radovic referred to such
4 a matter or that he actually read or put before the meeting some actual
5 text of a document?
6 A. I think we should first distinguish between these enactments.
7 Nenad Radovic informed those present that the Assembly passed only a
8 decision, not the law, on the establishment of the Serbian MUP. So in
9 that month, the Assembly took the decision to establish the Serbian MUP.
10 And he was informing the Serbs present about the text of that decision.
11 Not the law. The law was passed on the 27th March 1992. At this
12 particular moment, there was only a decision to establish the Serbian MUP.
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I wonder if the witness might,
14 therefore, have -- it's a document already in evidence. It was in
15 Mr. Treanor's exhibits. It's P65. It's folder 9A, tab 103.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, and the same is true, of course, for the
17 Prosecution. If you foresee that you would need one of the many, many
18 documents of Mr. Treanor, could you perhaps give already a message to the
19 registrar so that she can start finding them in advance.
20 MR. STEWART: Yes. My apologies, Your Honour. I didn't foresee
21 until about five minutes ago, but I still could have done it during those
22 five minutes. So we'll certainly try and remember to do that,
23 Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Mandic, this is Law on Internal Affairs, published in the
25 Official Gazette on the 23rd of March, 1992, and it is setting out Law on
1 Internal Affairs enacted by the National Assembly, it's described as, but
2 the Assembly of Republika Srpska, at its session of the 28th of February,
3 1992. Is this -- at least you have the advantage of being a lawyer,
4 Mr. Mandic, but if you could just look at it sufficiently to confirm that
5 that's the document that you had in mind by your reference to the Law on
6 Internal Affairs.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So the -- is the explanation this: If we're looking -- I don't
9 know whether we are literally looking, but if we're considering the
10 document which you sent out, dated the 31st of March, 1992, the 420 that
11 we'd referred to before, that's your signed document on the instructions
12 of Mr. Stanisic relating to the setting up of the Serbian MUP, in that
13 document, you began by saying: "At its meeting held on 27th of March,
14 1992, the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina ...
15 promulgated the constitution of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
16 Herzegovina." And then lower down, you talk about -- you say: "In that
17 respect, it passed a Law on Internal Affairs, which shall be uniformly
18 applied on the territory of the Republic of the Serbian People in Bosnia
19 and Herzegovina as of 1st of April, 1992, and appointed Mico Stanisic
20 until now an advisor in the BH MUP, as minister."
21 Is the explanation that the constitution was promulgated on the
22 27th of March, 1992, but the Law on Internal Affairs was earlier. It's
23 this document. This was passed at the session on the 28th of February?
24 That's correct, is it?
25 A. I don't believe that the Law on Internal Affairs could be passed
1 before the passing of the constitution as the supreme law. Then the
2 constitution must have been passed earlier on.
3 Q. It just doesn't seem all that likely, Mr. Mandic, with the
4 greatest respect. This apparently quite significant document that's
5 reciting the -- I'm paying you a compliment here, in effect, Mr. Mandic,
6 that's reciting these documents. You would have taken care to make sure
7 that the basic recitals were correct, wouldn't you, you and your
8 colleagues in the ministry?
9 A. Yes. I provided the information that I had in this dispatch,
10 because I did not attend the Assembly sessions where the constitution and
11 the Law on Internal Affairs were passed. But obviously, the Law on
12 Internal Affairs was not passed before the 11th of February, 1992, but
13 only a decision to establish the Serbian MUP, at an extended Ministerial
14 Council meeting, where Mr. Stanisic was present as a member of the
15 council, and there was the Assembly decision, and only 16 days later was
16 the Law on Internal Affairs actually passed by the Assembly. Therefore,
17 this particular document, my dispatch, and this meeting in Banja Luka
18 explain the course in which the events took place in terms of the
19 Assembly, the Ministerial Council, and the Serb members of the joint MUP.
20 Q. Can you help us then, Mr. Mandic. In the document that you sent
21 out dated the 31st of March, 1992, you said, it's three paragraphs down in
22 that document: "On the day this law comes into force," that's the Law on
23 Internal Affairs, because there's no other law you're referring to, "the
24 security services centre and public security stations of the Socialist
25 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina MUP on the territory of the Serbian
1 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina are abolished and cease to function,
2 and their authority, i.e., tasks and duties within the competence of
3 organs of Internal Affairs are taken over by the above-mentioned
4 organisational units of MUP of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
6 Can you help us, Mr. Mandic? You've got the document in the
7 original Serbian there. Where do we find that specific provision? It's
8 quite a long document, including some stuff about school uniforms, so I --
9 can you assist the Trial Chamber, and me, incidentally, to identify where
10 in this document, Law on Internal Affairs, we find the provisions relating
11 to the ceasing of functioning of the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina MUP and the duties being taken over by the MUP of the Serbian
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, excuse me. I don't know if it's an
16 important aspect of the cross-examination that the witness actually search
17 for it or if it would be helpful if I identify a likely --
18 MR. STEWART: I have no objection whatever to Mr. Tieger speeding
19 us to the right point, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you refer to 126, Mr. Tieger?
21 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. STEWART: Thank you.
24 Q. Yes. We see -- thank you for that. 126, that's what you're
25 referring to in your document; is that right?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. And then the 127 is consequential on that, is it, as far as --
3 well, it's more general, but it's consequential as far as MUP employees
4 are concerned?
5 A. That's right. This was regulated by the Law on Internal Affairs,
6 as I had mentioned in my dispatch. It seems to me that I also mentioned
7 the Sarajevo Agreement. This was an agreement on the Cutileiro Plan that
8 was verified in Lisbon on the 30th of March, a day before the dispatch was
9 sent out.
10 Q. And what is the particular point you're making in relation to the
11 Sarajevo Agreement?
12 A. I think that the Sarajevo Agreement hinges on this. The agreement
13 on the cantonisation of Bosnia and Herzegovina along the ethnic lines.
14 Q. Well, isn't the position this: That among other things, the
15 Sarajevo Agreement did contemplate arrangements which would include a
16 separate Serb MUP?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So in your recollection -- and we -- most of this is checkable as
19 far as documents are concerned, Mr. Mandic, but in your recollection there
20 was a decision of the Assembly before the meeting on the 11th of February.
21 There was the meeting of the 11th of February in Banja Luka, at which you
22 were present. There was subsequently, as we see, 28th of February
23 Assembly session at which the Law on Internal Affairs was passed
24 containing this provision, essentially consistent with an element of the
25 Sarajevo agreement, Cutileiro Plan, and then on the 31st of March, on the
1 instructions of Mr. Stanisic, you issue a document which faithfully
2 implements and reflects the Law on Internal Affairs which has been passed.
3 Is that a correct sequence of events, as far as you're concerned?
4 A. That's right, Mr. Stewart.
5 Q. And the Law on Internal Affairs, as one would expect under the
6 system in operation, it's signed by Mr. Krajisnik, as president of the
7 Assembly of the Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina, because that's
8 what he is and that's the procedure which has to be adopted in relation to
9 any law passed by the Assembly?
10 A. Yes. The president of the Assembly signed all the documents
11 promulgated by the president of the Republic.
12 Q. And so Mr. Krajisnik's part in this, he was the president of an
13 Assembly which was supportive, in the sense that it actually positively
14 approved and passed, supportive of a decision and eventually of a law that
15 was consistent with that element in the Sarajevo Agreement, which you then
16 signed in that way, but that is the limit of what you know about
17 Mr. Krajisnik's involvement in this particular matter; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And if we simply invite you to do this, if we leave aside - we can
20 argue about that, Mr. Krajisnik's position as president of the Assembly -
21 every deputy of the Assembly who voted in favour of this proposal was
22 giving the same individual support to the decision of the Assembly in the
23 context as I've just outlined it to you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In your evidence on Wednesday, the 24th of November, and this is
1 at page 57 --
2 MR. STEWART: And Your Honour, I'm giving up giving the other
3 reference to the continuous transcript, because for technical rather than
4 arithmetical reasons, it just doesn't work, so it doesn't help anybody.
5 So I'm --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. STEWART: So I'm sticking with page 57, and, well, Mr. Tieger
8 will have to do his best.
9 Q. You were asked about an interview, and this was an interview
10 Exhibit number P424, though I don't think I need trouble you specifically
11 with the exhibit for a moment, Mr. Mandic, unless we get stuck in some
12 way. But you said -- included in that interview, it was actually the
13 fifth question, so it's referred to page 57 as the transcript. You said:
14 "As a man, I am very devoted to both Slobodan Milosevic and to Radovan
15 Karadzic. With Karadzic and Krajisnik, I began the war in Sarajevo, and
16 now, when I am sitting here and watching what happened, I find
17 justification for the Serbian leadership of Yugoslavia."
18 As a matter of fact, Mr. Mandic, I objected to that question, but
19 never mind. That's the passage in the interview: "I began the war -- with
20 Karadzic and Krajisnik, I began the war in Sarajevo." Now, that's a very
21 large claim or admission, depending how one characterises it, Mr. Mandic.
22 You were asked some questions about this. But with or without anybody
23 else, is that really literally your position that you began the war in
25 A. Mr. Stewart, first of all, I do not recall this interview. And
1 only a part of it was shown to me. Now, whether these are sensationalist
2 newspapers or merely views of these journalists there, I don't know, but I
3 don't believe I placed myself among the political establishment of the
4 Serbian people.
5 Q. I think perhaps it is fair. It's a pretty sensitive area,
6 Your Honours. I think it's fair, Mr. Mandic, that you should have that
7 exhibit, 424.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It gives me, meanwhile, an opportunity, Mr. Tieger,
9 to understand the previous document, which is the Treanor document, and a
10 lot of questions. I noticed that in the English translation, we do
11 neither find the date of the 28th of February, nor do we have a date of
12 publication the 23rd of March. So in order to understand the testimony, I
13 would at least have some additional information to the translation.
14 Because the whole sequence in time is -- you can't follow that if you only
15 have the English translation.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. STEWART: But, Your Honour, we think what happened was that we
18 were later supplied, very helpfully, by the Prosecution with a new or
19 corrected or new, improved translation, which does have that information
20 on it, and I was working from that. So that may be the explanation, in
21 which case, clearly, one way or the other, we ought to ensure that that
22 new, improved version finds its way to Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And of course in the original you can more or less
24 decipher the dates.
25 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed.
1 JUDGE ORIE: But --
2 MR. STEWART: I think that's what happened, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. STEWART: We've got a better, more informative version.
5 JUDGE ORIE: If you would please pay some attention to that,
6 Mr. Tieger. Then if there is this better version, if we could see it and
7 see whether it could be replaced, then, by the new version.
8 MR. STEWART: We've got it, Your Honour, so there's no physical
9 problem about that. We've actually got it in our hands here.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I could just have a look at it.
11 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And then you may proceed meanwhile. Because my ears
13 and my eyes are two different functioning movements. Yes. That's exactly
14 what gives the better information, the difference between the original in
15 the Treanor binder and this version.
16 MR. STEWART: We'll sort it out for Your Honours, then.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the Prosecution would agree that this
18 translation is replaced by this version, which is a version with all the
19 headings, as we find them in the Official Gazette.
20 MR. TIEGER: No. Certainly, Your Honour. And I'm pleased the
21 Court brought that to our attention.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you'll provide a copy and then
23 Madam Registrar --
24 MR. STEWART: We can happily leave that with the Prosecution for
25 the moment if it's easier for them.
1 MR. TIEGER: I just wanted to make sure we had the correct ERN
2 number so make sure there was no further complication. We can now return
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. STEWART: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then the Chamber expects a copy to be provided to
7 Madam Registrar which could then replace it in the Treanor binder.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
9 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Mandic, you've now got, I think -- you've seen it briefly
11 before, but you've now got, I hope, a copy of an interview which
12 apparently was published in something called Ekstra magazine. You have
13 that? And the passage previously referred to and is being again now, is
14 under the heading "How did you personally take the political conflict and
15 severance of relations --"
16 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour.
17 Q. It's the second page left-hand column, I'm told, Mr. Mandic, and
18 it says "How did you personally take the political conflict and severance
19 of relations between Republika Srpska and the Federal Republic of
20 Yugoslavia?" And then it goes: "As a man, I'm very devoted ..." and so
21 on. So you might want to just take a moment to refresh your memory and
22 to, well, read that.
23 A. Yes, I've read it.
24 Q. Well, it's some years later, but I'll ask you the first question,
25 Mr. Mandic. Do you actually have any recollection of giving such an
2 A. No. This paper was, I think, from Bijeljina, this Ekstra
3 magazine. I don't think it exists any longer. This was a weekly, what we
4 would call yellow press. Here in the beginning, as I can see, it says:
5 "Momcilo Mandic, a long-time and prominent member of the SDS," which isn't
6 true, and probably there's other stuff that isn't true as well. I saw
7 this for the first time when Mr. Tieger showed it to me.
8 Q. So, Mr. Mandic, are you -- I just want to be clear. Are you
9 suggesting that the journalist, the editors, might erroneously have
10 included a passage referring to your assertion that you began the war in
12 A. I don't think that I was as ambitious as that at that time,
13 either -- to define myself as the man who had started the war in Bosnia
14 and Herzegovina. I don't know how at all would I have been able to do
15 such a thing.
16 Q. Can we take it, Mr. Mandic: We can exclude, as far as you're
17 concerned, can we, the at least logically prior possibility that this
18 article is a total fabrication and that no such interview with you took
19 place and it's a complete invention? You wouldn't suggest such a
20 startling position, would you?
21 A. Believe me, Mr. Stewart, when I say that I don't remember this
22 article and that I saw it for the first time when Mr. Tieger showed it to
23 me. Evidently, this text dates from the time when I was head of the
24 bureau in Belgrade, and this paper is from Bosnia, Republika Srpska.
25 Q. I just want to be clear whether you're suggesting that it is a
1 possibility that the whole thing is a complete fabrication or whether
2 we're at least starting from the position that you're acknowledging that
3 some such interview took place, which is broadly reflected in this
4 newspaper article.
5 A. Mr. Stewart, I don't remember this interview. I don't remember
6 ever giving one, this one. There are some illogical assertions here that
7 make no sense about my relationship with Karadzic and Milosevic that seems
8 to exaggerate our intimacy. Then the fact that I was a prominent member
9 of the Serbian Democratic Party. I have evidently never been a member of
10 the SDS. And there are some other illogical matters here, and I really do
11 not remember anything related to this article.
12 Q. Is a statement such as that, in whatever circumstances, at
13 whatever time, is a statement such as that, that "I began the war in
14 Sarajevo" one that you could and would ever have made?
15 A. I would never say that.
16 Q. And it therefore --
17 A. This would seem like really improper boasting.
18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm afraid -- just for the moment, I --
19 it may have come up in the course of the evidence or subsequent discussion
20 as to what the date of this article was. It was -- at the time it
21 initially came up, it was going to be checked, but I'm afraid I now can't
22 remember whether we were then subsequently informed of the date. I'm just
23 wondering -- help. I'm wondering whether anybody else remembers.
24 JUDGE ORIE: As far as I remember, the information given to us was
25 by the context, it was situated during the period when Mr. Mandic was in
1 Belgrade. Is that --
2 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. With respect, I certainly agree
3 with that. It didn't narrow it down terribly far, was I think the point.
4 At the foot of page 49, Your Honour said: "Mr. Tieger, you're invited to
5 give further details as soon as possible on the -- I'm invited to slow
6 down: "Mr. Tieger, you're invited to give further details as soon as
7 possible on the date of publication of the Ekstra magazine." And
8 Mr. Tieger said: "I will advise the Court at the earliest opportunity."
9 I apologise, Your Honour, if somewhere later in the transcript that
10 opportunity was later taken and I've just overlooked it or -- I don't
11 remember where it was. Well, my cry for help is going unheeded. I don't
12 seem to be alone here in not knowing when it was.
13 Q. Mr. Mandic -- well, I know it's not really fair to ask you,
14 Mr. Mandic, because you've said already you have no recollection whatever
15 of it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, could you provide any assistance, any
17 further assistance? What I -- what my attention is drawn to is that at
18 least reference is made to something that happened in September 1993,
19 which suggests that this is after September 1993.
20 MR. TIEGER: Well, Your Honour, I can only -- I can't provide
21 additional guidance other than the type that the Court is engaged in now,
22 that is, a contextual analysis of the document itself. As I understand
23 it, when this document was obtained, it was copied in a manner that did
24 not provide the date. I mean, I'm not in a position to actually determine
25 the date specifically from a portion of the document in our possession. So
1 the contextual analysis that we engaged in before and that the Court was
2 conducting a moment ago is -- we can participate in that as well, but no
3 further guidance is available, as I understand it.
4 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, it's not a very narrow dating,
5 but I note that on the last page of the English, a paragraph beginning:
6 "As for September 1993 ..." And it begins -- sorry - it ends, I beg your
7 pardon, the last sentence: "The September operation was organised for
8 entirely different matters of which it will perhaps be possible to mention
9 in five or ten years, perhaps when the war ends."
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's exactly the same as on the bottom of
11 page 4, where the article says something about the participants in the
12 September 1993 operation. So that's --
13 MR. STEWART: Yes. Well, it gives us a start and a finish,
14 Your Honour. It's no earlier than September 1993, but it's no later than,
15 well, the end of 1995, when we suppose that the war is taken to have
16 ended. So it's two years, is the frame.
17 Q. But, Mr. Mandic, I suggest we can take it from your answers and
18 confirm that -- I asked you whatever time, so during that period from
19 after September 1993, while apparently the war was still continuing,
20 according to the text and context, your evidence is that you could and
21 would have never made any such statement that you started the war in
22 Sarajevo. That's your position, isn't it?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And it follows, perhaps, as a piece of elementary logic, that if
25 you would never have made any such statement that you began the war in
1 Sarajevo, you therefore could and would not have made any statement that
2 you began the war in Sarajevo with Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, both of
3 them, or anybody else in the world?
4 A. Well, from my evidence given so far to the Prosecution and to
5 yourself, Mr. Stewart, it transpires that everything that happened in
6 early 1992 doesn't fit in with any allusion that I started the war with
7 Karadzic, Krajisnik, or whoever. This decision to establish the Serbian
8 MUP was preceded by a number of incidents and skirmishes, and there was a
9 series of events that followed from each other.
10 Q. Without, if necessary, going into those, are you, by that comment,
11 are you saying, Mr. Mandic, that the-- that the decision, from everything
12 that you could see and knew at the time, that the decision to establish a
13 separate Serbian MUP was a justified, reasonable decision to take and
15 A. It follows from that meeting in Banja Luka, where individual
16 officials, Serbs, presented the problems encountered in the operation of
17 the mixed MUP and that the growing numbers of Muslim policemen in the
18 reserve forces of the MUP, and they were trying to point out these
19 problems to Minister Alija Delimustafic. As for this meeting in Banja
20 Luka, it was attended by highly qualified professionals, policemen who had
21 been in the service for 10, 15 years, all of them graduates of a police
22 academy when it was still a joint academy. And they were policemen before
23 everything else. They expressed what they felt and thought. I'm speaking
24 now about the meeting in Banja Luka.
25 Q. So, therefore, when you referred to -- you said "the decision to
1 establish the Serbian MUP was preceded by a number of incidents and
2 skirmishes," can we be clear which decision in that sequence of decisions
3 and resolutions and laws and so on, which decision are you referring to
5 A. The decision of the Assembly of the Serbian People to establish a
6 Serbian Ministry of the Interior. This decision was presented by Nenad
7 Radovic, who read out the text of the decision. He was then assistant
8 minister for appointments in the MUP. And Mr. Stanisic conveyed at the
9 same meeting the conclusions of the Ministerial Council in its extended
10 composition concerning the MUP, including the conclusion that a Serbian
11 MUP should be established.
12 Q. So the incidents and skirmishes that you referred to, because you
13 said "this decision to establish the Serbian MUP was preceded by a number
14 of incidents and skirmishes." So those incidents and skirmishes happened,
15 well, certainly sometime before the 11th of February. They were in late
16 1991 and early 1992, were they?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And could you give an illustration of a skirmish that you have in
19 mind as part of the background?
20 A. I think it was in February that we had a great problem committing
21 a special unit of the MUP which went to ethnically pure areas populated by
22 Serbs. They rounded up people and took them into custody, inspecting them
23 for possession of weapons, et cetera. Those were incidents, and we had
24 meetings in Krtelj with the leadership of the special unit, and at one
25 point we reached an agreement that it may not be activated without the
1 approval of three leaders of different ethnicities. I remember incidents
2 in Bileca, in Foca, in the settlement of Pofalici in Sarajevo, in Stari
3 Grad, and so on.
4 Another great problem which I mentioned two or three times was the
5 lack of control of enrolment in the police force. People were admitted
6 without being vetted, and sometimes even criminals were engaged as
7 policemen. Because the priority was to establish an ethnic composition of
8 the police force which would reflect the exact ethnic composition of the
9 country, which was impossible as an objective.
10 I have to remind you: At the beginning, when the national parties
11 only came into power, there were 10.000 employees in the Ministry of the
12 Interior. I'm speaking only about the uniformed staff. Over 7.000 of
13 them were Serbs. A little over 2.000 were Muslims, and very few were
14 Croats. And that was a problem that the parties immediately emphasised as
15 a problem and wanted an immediate change.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, there's just part of this answer, I'd
17 like to seek a clarification.
18 MR. STEWART: Indeed, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I just don't understand it.
20 Mr. Mandic, you said that there was a "great problem committing a
21 special unit of the MUP which went to ethnically pure areas populated by
22 Serbs." And then you say: "They rounded up people." Who are "they"? Is
23 this the special unit of the MUP? Did the special unit of the MUP round
24 up people and take them into custody?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. The special unit
1 was a unit for special purposes. Only upon the orders of the minister
2 were they able to intervene on certain security missions and law
3 enforcements missions.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You're explaining, but I'm just trying to understand
5 what you said before. You said: "I think it was in February that we had
6 a great problem committing a special unit of the MUP which went to
7 ethnically pure areas populated by Serbs." And then you said: "They
8 rounded up people and took them into custody, inspecting them for
9 possession of weapons, et cetera." Who did you mean by "they"?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The special unit, composed of
11 policemen of all ethnicities - it was a mixed special unit - went to
12 ethnically pure Serb settlements, searched houses, looking for weapons and
13 arrested people. And that was a political problem vis-a-vis the MUP.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was just asking who you meant by "they" and
15 now I do understand by your answer that by "they," you meant the special
16 unit of the MUP that went there. Now, you gave a few examples: "We
17 reached an agreement that it may not be activated without the approval of
18 three leaders of the different ethnicities. I remember incidents in
19 Bileca, in Foca, in the settlement of Pofalici in Sarajevo, in Stari Grad,
20 and so on."
21 Earlier you referred to the special unit being committed to purely
22 Serb areas. I do understand that this is not about sending them to purely
23 Serb areas any more, or is it?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Right.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So the examples you gave were mixed areas, or at
1 least non-purely Serb areas; is that correct?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I gave the example of
3 Pofalici, Bileca, Foca, Stari Grad. They were purely Serb neighbourhoods
4 and areas. Later, when political problems arose at the level of the
5 Assembly among MPs, between parties, and within the Ministry of the
6 Interior, we appointed three leaders of the special unit, or special
7 units, each representing one of the ethnic groups, to decide together on
8 any engagement, any missions of the special unit, to avoid future problems
9 of the same kind that we had discussed.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Now at least I -- I was just trying to understand
11 you. You say all the areas you mentioned, including Stari Grad and
12 Pofalici, were purely Serb areas. Yes. Thank you.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart. Well, we are close to 7.00 anyhow.
14 MR. STEWART: May I mention, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. STEWART: Ms. Cmeric suggests that the question that
17 Your Honour asked, it's at line 20 to 22 of page 80, when Your Honour
18 said: "I do understand this is not about sending them to purely Serb
19 areas any more, or is it?" Ms. Cmeric suggests that it may be that the
20 negative got dropped from the translation, which would explain an awful
21 lot of what comes afterwards, actually.
22 JUDGE ORIE: At least now it's clear that the witness says that
23 the four examples he gave were examples of where he's speaking about an
24 intervention in purely Serb areas.
25 MR. STEWART: Indeed, Your Honour, and that seems to fit.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mandic, it's 7.00. We adjourn for the day. I
2 have one procedural issue to deal with for a moment, but I'd like to
3 instruct you not to speak with anyone about the testimony you have given
4 or you're still about to give, and we'd like to see you back at a quarter
5 past 2.00 tomorrow in the same courtroom. Oh, no. I'm making a mistake.
6 We're not sitting tomorrow. It's either age or time. Mr. Mandic, we're
7 not sitting tomorrow. Tomorrow is a meeting of the Judges, a plenary
8 meeting, so none of the Chambers will sit tomorrow. The day after
9 tomorrow, a quarter past 2.00, in this same courtroom. So that is the 9th
10 of December.
11 Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Mandic out of the
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to turn into private session for just a
16 second, and since we'll then adjourn for the day, those in the public
17 gallery might not have a great interest in returning once they have left
18 the public gallery.
19 [Private session]
20 JUDGE ORIE: We're now in private session. One of the pending
21 issues is the request to release the closed-session testimony of Milan
22 Babic and the related exhibits under seal. The Chamber is willing to
23 accommodate this request by the Defence, thus lifting the confidentiality
24 on transcript pages on from 3323 to the end of this testimony, as well as
25 all related exhibits. It will, however, formally do so only on the 31st
1 of January of 2005. Since this allows the parties, as well as Mr. Babic
2 himself, the opportunity to file further submissions on specific and
3 objective elements showing the real likelihood of danger or risk still
4 existing and that the Chamber should reconsider its willingness to proceed
5 as it just said.
6 The Chamber, therefore, kindly requests the registrar to convey
7 this portion of the transcript to the Victims and Witness Section and to
8 Mr. Babic.
9 This is the issue I would like to deal with in private session.
10 Perhaps we return now into open session.
11 [Open session]
12 JUDGE ORIE: We're back in open session. If there are no other
13 procedural issues to be raised, we'll adjourn until the 9th of December,
14 so the day after tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, same courtroom.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of
17 December 2004, at 2.15 a.m.