1 Thursday, 17 March 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 10.34 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Ms. Loukas, I'm -- I was already informed about it but I'm glad to
10 see that you managed to get the assistance of an interpreter so -- in
11 order to, as far as I understand, to facilitate the communication with Mr.
13 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. And I could indicate that for
14 the Defence today, Ms. Catriona Vine is here and Mr. Marko Avramovic is
15 the interpreter who will assist with communication today. And I should
16 also add that I wish to thank Ms. Petra Jacoby from the registry for being
17 of great assistance.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then Ms. Loukas, are you ready to cross-examine the
19 witness, Mr. Djokanovic?
20 MS. LOUKAS: Well, of course, Your Honour, I made an application
21 earlier in the week that was dismissed and in those circumstances, in
22 light of Your Honour's order, I am ready to proceed in light of Your
23 Honour's order.
24 THE COURT: Yes. Thank you.
25 Madam Usher, will you please escort the witness into the
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Djokanovic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated.
6 WITNESS: DRAGAN DJOKANOVIC [Resumed]
7 [The witness answered through interpreter]
8 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to remind you that you are still bound
9 by the solemn declaration that you have given at the beginning of your
11 You will now be cross-examined by Ms. Loukas, counsel for the
13 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
14 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Djokanovic. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, you, of
16 course, gave two statements to the Office of the Prosecutor.
17 A. [No interpretation]
18 Q. And of course you stand by those statements you gave to the Office
19 of the Prosecutor?
20 A. Yes, I do stand by everything which I said whilst giving these
22 Q. And the statements are truthful and accurate?
23 A. All my statements are truthful and accurate.
24 Q. And, obviously, before you signed those statements, you were asked
25 if there was anything you needed to add; correct?
1 A. As far as I can remember, before signing these statements, they
2 were read out to me in my language and then I signed them. I do not
3 recall a comment to the effect of whether I had something to add.
4 Q. But in any event, you were happy that in your statement, you'd
5 given the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; correct?
6 A. All my contacts with the investigators and the interpreters were
7 very correct and at no moment did I doubt that anything could be, so to
8 speak, planted on me, although I did, while hearing the statement being
9 read out to me, hear some formulations which do not correspond to the
10 syntax that I use, the sentence structure that I used. I have a very long
11 and complex sentence which is not all that easy to translate. So that
12 perhaps when I noticed that something was amiss in that sense, I would
13 just define it by that difficulty of translation, but essentially nothing
14 was different, nothing changed from what was my statement.
15 Q. So in essence you're saying that as far as you're concerned, the
16 substance of what you said in your statements is correct and that there
17 may be some minor differences of syntax; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, I just want to take you through some matters
20 from your statements.
21 First of all, you, of course, take the view that had Mr.
22 Izetbegovic not changed his mind about the Cutileiro Plan in March 1992,
23 the war in Bosnia would not have occurred; correct?
24 A. Had Mr. Izetbegovic adhered to his position, had he behaved as
25 signed as agreed, it is my conviction that the war would not have occurred
1 in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Serbian side was ready for an agreement
2 and for a peaceful settlement.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djokanovic. I just want to confirm another matter.
4 In February 1991, there was of course a meeting of the SDA in the region
5 of Bihac and that's where the links were established between the Muslims
6 and the Croats; correct?
7 A. The links had been established before. At that time, they became
8 manifested and practised, publicly manifested by the tying together of the
9 two flags of the two sides, the Muslim side and the Croat-Bosnian side.
10 Q. And of course it was around about at that time that you warned Mr.
11 Izetbegovic and the Bosnian public that their action was a route towards
12 war; correct?
13 A. Before that date, Mr. Izetbegovic was not in any way whatsoever
14 provoked to speak the way he spoke at the rally in Bihac in the Cazin
15 Krajina. And as I had this opportunity to say what I thought about that
16 event and I gave this interview to Mr. Zivkovic for the Oslobodjenje where
17 I warned Mr. Izetbegovic that such a policy was indeed conducive to war.
18 And in another interview in the Sarajevo evening paper, Vecernje Novosti,
19 I stated that Bosnia had its constitution and what Mr. Izetbegovic was
20 advocating at this rally in the Krajina could disrupt the theretofor and
21 literally I said quite good and balanced interethnic relations between the
22 Muslims, Croats and the Serbs.
23 Q. And of course that's what your -- your party was a multi-ethnic
24 party; correct?
25 A. The party was a multi-ethnic one.
1 Q. Now, you also, during 1991, supported the idea of a National
2 Council representing each nation in the parliament; correct?
3 A. Yes, I did advocate that. I said that the chamber of the Bosnia
4 and Herzegovina parliament should be a chamber of peoples where key
5 decisions would be adopted by consensus and that would be a guarantee for
6 peace. That chance was missed out on and this chance to prevent the war
7 was a chance that, first of all, the League of Communists of Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina had, that had been the ruling party in Bosnia and Herzegovina
9 before the elections. Later it was much more difficult to redress that
10 mistake. When I say later, I'm talking about a period after the
12 Q. Now, in August 1991, of course you organised a meeting with the
13 Muslim-Bosniak organisation with both Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Zulfikarpasic;
15 A. This was a panel discussion in Zvornik attended by Mr.
16 Zulfikarpasic and Mr. Karadzic, yes.
17 Q. And your thinking behind that, of course, was that Mr.
18 Zulfikarpasic was much more moderate than Mr. Izetbegovic; correct?
19 A. He was both moderate and he was a much better analyst, he was
20 tolerant, he was flexible and he was a visionary.
21 Q. Now, in relation to the events that occurred in parliament on the
22 14th and 15th of October, 1991, in that context, you were aware, of
23 course, of a committee for national equality that existed; correct?
24 A. Yes, under the law there existed some sort of a body, not as part
25 of the Bosnia and Herzegovina parliament, but under the constitution,
1 there was a council for national equality.
2 Q. And this question of the declaration of independence had attempted
3 to be or referred to that council by the Bosnian Serbs; correct?
4 A. Since the rally in Bihac in Cazinska Krajina, when Mr. Izetbegovic
5 had announced the adoption of the declaration of the independence of
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Serbian side continuously kept warning what
7 that could lead to and of course in this final stage, it also tried this
8 as the last resort to refer this issue to the council for national
9 equality for their consideration
10 Q. So when you said -- when this matter came to parliament, this
11 question of the declaration of independence, and I'm talking around the
12 time of the 14th and 15th of October, 1991, and you say that you said to
13 Mr. Krajisnik "They," meaning the Muslims "... don't respect the two
14 constitutions. Why would they respect the Assembly rules?" Your concern
15 there was, I take it, that the Muslims and the Croats, as far as you were
16 concerned, were acting in an unconstitutional manner; correct?
17 A. [No interpretation]
18 Q. I don't think your answer has been recorded as yet. I'll just
19 wait for that?
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear a thing.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat your answer, Mr. Djokanovic.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I said was that's exactly the
23 way it was.
24 MS. LOUKAS:
25 Q. Yes, thank you, Mr. Djokanovic.
1 Now, just in relation to that, the -- I take it that your approach
2 was that you didn't think that the Muslims and the Croats were respecting
3 the legality of the political process; correct?
4 A. You are right, and I spoke about this even before that October --
5 since April 1991, when at a multi-party consultations of the Serbian
6 Democratic Party, I talked about this. This was a body constituted by the
7 SDS in order to cooperate with other political parties in Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina on certain issues that they concurred about. So at that
9 meeting, which took place on the 20th of April, I said that one day in our
10 Assembly we should harbour no illusions about that, that we would be
11 outvoted by the Muslim and Croatian deputies.
12 Q. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, you of course took the view at that time that
13 in view of the illegal constitutional approach that had been adopted by
14 the Muslims and the Croats in parliament, that the best thing that the
15 Bosnian Serbs could do was to organise a press conference of international
16 journalists and invite the citizens for a demonstration; correct?
17 A. I did not, myself, harbour any illusions that what did take place
18 in parliament would not take place, so I thought it was our only chance to
19 call a conference of the foreign press and to tell them that we were
20 afraid that this would happen in the Assembly and thereby also to inform
21 the public and have the citizens demonstrate in front of the parliament
22 building against such a decision which was threatening to all.
23 Q. So your approach basically was an extra parliamentary approach, an
24 approach outside of parliament, whereas it seems that Mr. Krajisnik still
25 believed in the legal, political processes and that the Assembly rules
1 would be respected; correct?
2 A. Well, protest demonstrations are also our form of the legal
3 expression of the peoples' will.
4 Q. Indeed, yes, indeed. There's no disagreement about that but I was
5 referring to the things outside parliament?
6 A. And Mr. Krajisnik probably also, given the office that he held,
7 thought that he could still do something from this position of President
8 of the Assembly of parliament.
9 Q. I guess you'd agree with me that he appeared to still believe that
10 the Muslims and Croats would still respect the constitution?
11 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we object to that question. It's not
12 very helpful to the Court for this witness to speculate on what Mr.
13 Krajisnik believed. This witness was present with Mr. Krajisnik at that
14 time. He would be able to inform the Court of what he observed at that
16 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, the question is whether he appeared to
17 still believe, that means that it's not just -- the question is not about
18 what Mr. Krajisnik believed but what he in his -- what, in his
19 conduct, would appear that. But let me make a more general comment.
20 Ms. Loukas, it seems that we're going very much the same way as
21 the Prosecution did, and that is this case is not about whether a war
22 could have been prevented, what political action would have been best to
23 do so. This case is mainly about what happened in that war and I'm not
24 saying that it's totally irrelevant what action was taken in order to
25 prevent a war. I'm not saying that it's totally irrelevant to discuss
1 whatever political moves that were taken. It certainly adds to a better
2 insight in responsibilities for events, but, again, this is a case which
3 focuses on what happens in the war and with what intent that happened.
4 Although I made some observations in respect of the emphasis the
5 Prosecution -- emphasis the Prosecution has put on certain elements of the
6 knowledge of this witness, we did not stop the Prosecution, although there
7 was quite some -- well, some critical observations about it. I hope, Ms.
8 Loukas, that I do not have to make the same critical observations at the
9 end of the cross-examination.
10 Please proceed.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I can indicate firstly I'm only
12 half an hour -- well less than 25 minutes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I must admit that you go quicker to this less
14 relevant parts than the Prosecution did. I have to fully admit that, so
15 to that extent, the performance is -- to the extent that the Chamber is in
16 the position to assess the quality of the performance, but at least it
17 better meet what the Chamber would primarily like to hear from witnesses.
18 Please proceed.
19 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour, and I just make one further
20 comment. Of course when dealing with a trial of a politician in the
21 position of Mr. Krajisnik and his responsibility in terms of joint
22 criminal enterprise and command responsibility, I would submit that a
23 politician's respect for the legal political processes and the -- and his
24 approach to these matters is relevant to the ultimate issue as well.
25 JUDGE ORIE: As I said, it is not entirely without relevance but
1 of course it becomes more and more relevant not on discussions in one year
2 before the war started. But of course the closer we come to the war, the
3 more relevant it becomes and the more it focuses on the specific issues in
4 the indictment, the more relevant it becomes.
5 Please proceed.
6 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, in relation to the various conferences that
8 occurred in late 1991 early 1992, just prior to the war, I take it you
9 take the view that the recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the recognition
10 of the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina by the International Community
11 without the internal issues relating to the relationship between the
12 Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Muslims, and Bosnian Croats haven't been settled
13 was actually a mistake on the part of the International Community?
14 A. The Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the majority of the Serbs and the
15 majority of the political parties never worked against the territorial
16 integrity of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The majority Serbian policy in
17 Bosnia and Herzegovina was preservation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, of the
18 equality of peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina and its remaining as part of the
19 Yugoslav Federation. So the international recognition of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina if it had to ensue after the findings of the Badinter
21 commission had to be done only after having harmonised internationality
22 and interethnic relations on a totally equitable footing.
23 Q. Yes. Now, just going to a document that was referred to in your
24 evidence in chief, and that is the 11th Assembly session of the 18th of
25 March, 1992.
1 Your Honours, I've indicated to Ms. Philpott that I will be using
2 this document?
3 JUDGE ORIE: We received a copy.
4 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you. I also e-mailed the Prosecution so that
5 they would be aware.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you just help me whether -- I do understand
7 that this is step 1 of 9 from Treanor's --
8 THE REGISTRAR: 65.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- 65 Exhibit. Ms. Loukas, was it on Monday or on
10 Tuesday that -- it enables me to get the right transcript in front of me.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Was it on Monday or Tuesday that the Prosecution
12 referred to the document?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, it was in the first session on
16 JUDGE ORIE: First session on Tuesday. Thank you.
17 MS. LOUKAS:
18 Q. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, I think you have that document before you?
19 A. I have the shorthand notes of the 11th session of the Assembly
20 held on the 18th of March, 1992.
21 Q. Now, if you go to the first page of the Assembly session, you'll
22 note there, of course, that Mr. Krajisnik, as President of the Assembly,
23 is speaking and opening the session and that he proposes only two items
24 for the agenda and that is one: Information on the last session of the
25 conference on solutions for the crisis in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And
1 two: Questions raised by deputies.
2 Do you see that there?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Now, what basically that session was discussing, therefore, you'd
5 agree with me, Mr. Djokanovic, is of course the negotiations around the
6 Cutileiro Plan?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Margetts.
8 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we object to that question so far as
9 that is not the complete reference to agenda items for that Assembly. In
10 fact, there are a number of submissions in relation to additional agenda
11 items made by various of the attendees and we invite Ms. Loukas to
12 reference those additional items as well.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, do you accept the invitation?
14 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, Mr. Margetts always has the
15 opportunity for re-examination and my time in cross-examination is
17 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, then our application is merely an
18 objection to the question and we request that counsel withdraw that
20 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, in general, quoting specific parts of a
21 document which would -- or drawing the attention to a specific part of the
22 document which finally would give not an impression of the document that
23 is realistic doesn't assist the Chamber that much so -- but it's not
24 entirely clear to me, Mr. Margetts, what you would like to have added
25 because -- unfortunately, my screen is not functioning anymore.
1 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I'm happy -- Mr. Margetts.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Margetts.
3 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'm referring to page 3 which is the
4 page that Ms. Loukas referred to. The proposal was that the two items
5 that she referred to be on the agenda. The next question is: "Does
6 anyone move to amend or supplement the agenda?"
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Margetts, if -- of course Ms. Loukas is now
8 aware that if any amendment of the agenda would undermine her Defence
9 position that that's what she'll face in your re-examination.
10 So Ms. Loukas, please proceed.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And I would take it, Ms. Loukas, that being aware of
13 risks, that you will be cautious.
14 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
15 Q. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, you'll also note that Mr. Veselinovic
16 suggested another item be included on the agenda and that is that the
17 stand of the Serbian Assembly concerning the latest developments in the
18 MUP of Bosnia Ministry of Internal Affairs because the Assembly must
19 consider the matter and make its position clear, and then Mr. Krajisnik
20 says, that the Assembly will sit again on Friday or Saturday when a number
21 of laws are expected to be adopted and that matters to which Mr.
22 Veselinovic has referred should also be discussed at the next session, not
23 this session; correct? Okay.
24 And then Mr. Jovo Mijatovic suggested the Assembly consider how we
25 should proceed with the application of the constitution and the
1 constitutional act. And then Mr. Krajisnik points out that a number of
2 related issues are to be examined at the next Assembly session; correct?
3 A. Yes, that's all correct.
4 Q. I note that Mr. Djokanovic's answer after my first question was
5 not recorded.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MS. LOUKAS: That is at -- let's see --
8 JUDGE ORIE: At 13:25.
9 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think he confirmed what you said.
11 MS. LOUKAS:
12 Q. So then the proposed agenda and amendments were adopted as
13 initially proposed by Mr. Krajisnik?
14 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, at this point, the specific item that
15 I was referring to has been missed and that was the first one proposed by
16 Dobrivoje Vidic which brought into some extent the first item on the
17 agenda, and the amended agenda appears on page 4 and is not the agenda
18 which was initially proposed on page 3.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.
20 MS. LOUKAS: Let's keep going with that, Your Honour. I'm happy
21 to keep proceeding with the agenda. I mean it's -- the document speaks
22 for itself.
23 Q. So initially, the agenda proposed was information on the last
24 session of the conference on solutions for the crisis in
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina and questions raised by the deputies, and then, after
1 amendment, it's information on the later session of the conference on
2 solutions for the crisis in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the political situation
3 in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in Yugoslavia and two questions raised by
4 the deputies.
5 Are we agreed, Mr. Djokanovic?
6 A. After all these interventions by the deputies, the agenda remained
7 the same. It had these two items that we proceeded to discuss.
8 Q. Yes. The only difference was that there was that addition of the
9 phrase "Political situation in Bosnia and in Yugoslavia," but in any
10 event, as far as you're concerned, the way it was reformulated in the
11 second instance was discussing the same thing that they were discussing in
12 the first instance; correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djokanovic.
15 Now, going to this document, now that we've dealt with the agenda,
16 if we look at what Mr. Karadzic has to say, he's basically talking about
17 the negotiations in relation to the Cutileiro Plan and I think at one
18 point during his speech, he's actually reciting the text of the Cutileiro
19 Plan; correct?
20 A. Yes. Dr. Karadzic speaks quite exhaustively about the Cutileiro
21 Plan, paraphrasing some things and quoting others.
22 Q. And I think at one point during the speech that he gives, he
23 speaks about the institutions that will be formulated under the Cutileiro
24 plan and I don't know if you can easily find the paragraph in the B/C/S,
25 but in the English, it comes after -- there's this discussion of the issue
1 of tax and taxation authority remaining to be dealt with, security at
2 publicly events, hygiene, sport recreation, each constituent unit,
3 referring to, you know, the Bosnian Muslim unit, the Bosnian Croat unit,
4 and the Bosnian Serb unit of Bosnia-Herzegovina would establish its own
5 institutions, constituent units may establish and maintain relationships
6 and links.
7 Then he talks about -- there's this portion of his speech, he
8 talks about the institutions will proportionally reflect the composition
9 and we do agree that they do so in constituent units. Have you got that
10 portion of the speech, Mr. Djokanovic?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Can you give us an indication as to the English page.
12 MS. LOUKAS: It's on page 9 of the English. "If we have 6 per
13 cent Croats in our units, there should be 6 per cent Croats in the police,
14 national guards, the judiciary, et cetera, just as there should be 12 per
15 cent of Serbs outside our unit."
16 Q. Do you see that portion there?
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, I heard nine, I read six, and I
19 can't find it either on nine or six at this moment.
20 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I have the stenograph of the 11th
21 Assembly session 18th of March, 1992.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MS. LOUKAS: The English translation number on the top is SA
24 0257110, SA 025780 X, so I'm just wondering if we have different copies.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We have exactly the same copy in front of us.
1 MS. LOUKAS: Page 9.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand at least our legal officer says that
3 page 8, which, of course, is ...
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Page -- gives better chances.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 6 to 9.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the part you just read, Ms. Loukas, appears on
8 page 8 of the English text, the 6 per cent of the Croats in the police and
9 the 12 per cent of the Serbs.
10 Yes, please proceed.
11 Have you found it, Mr. Djokanovic?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On pages 6 to 10, you can find
13 everything that Ms. Loukas has read out.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.
15 MS. LOUKAS:
16 Q. Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Now, Mr. Djokanovic, in terms of what was being discussed there,
18 it was clearly contemplated that within these constituent units, that, for
19 example, within the Bosnian Serb constituent unit, there would be Muslims
20 and Croats and in the Bosnian Muslim constituent unit, there would be
21 Croats and Serbs, and within the Bosnian Croat unit, there would be Serbs
22 and Muslims. Correct?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. And when you move on further and on my version of this document,
25 it appears at page 12 where Mr. Krajisnik speaks, in the -- do you have
1 the beginning of Mr. Krajisnik's speech there, where it begins, "It is
2 true that our situation is not good. The job is not done yet. It is true
3 that we still need to go along way before we can achieve our goals." And
4 he talks about his impressions of the Cutileiro negotiations; correct?
5 A. Yes, I have this on page 14.
6 MS. LOUKAS: I think, Your Honours, on my version it appears on
7 page 12. I don't know if it also appears on your version at page 12.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The start of the words spoken by Mr. Krajisnik appear
9 on 11 and it continues on page 12.
10 MS. LOUKAS: It's interesting that we seem to have a different
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could we just compare, if you would not mind, you
13 could also take mine so that I don't have any access to your personal
15 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, it seems to be that, Your Honours, mine is one
16 page ahead of Your Honours' version for some reason which I --
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's how it should be, Ms. Loukas. Defence should
18 always be one page ahead.
19 MS. LOUKAS: We always aim for that, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would not mind to give my version back
21 although one page behind.
22 MS. LOUKAS: I have a habit of collecting documents.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever you mention the number now, I'll deduct one.
24 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed.
25 Q. Right. Now, we were just talking about what appears there in
1 relation to what Mr. Krajisnik is saying and he's there talking about his
2 impressions of the negotiations around the Cutileiro Plan; correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And he's there talking about the fact that as part of the
5 negotiations, there were maps that had to be looked at?
6 A. [No interpretation]
7 Q. And that the Bosnian Muslims had in fact supplied a map as I think
8 it says there, "We succeeded in making Muslims supply their own map." Do
9 you see that portion there?
10 A. I see that, but I also recalled this particular comment at the
12 Q. Yes, thank you, Mr. Djokanovic. And of course the HDZ
13 representatives had their own map, basically all the negotiating parties
14 had maps; correct?
15 A. Evidently.
16 Q. Now, it is of course in this context if you go to what is on my
17 page 13 of the document, which is where he says, "In this respect, it
18 would be good if we could do one thing for strategic reasons, if we could
19 start implementing what we have agreed upon, the ethnic division on the
20 ground, that we start determining the territory and once the territory is
21 determined, it remains to be established in additional negotiations whose
22 authorities are to function and in what way."
23 Do you see that portion that I'm speaking about, Mr. Djokanovic?
24 A. This is contained in the document I have here on page 16.
25 Q. Yes.
1 MS. LOUKAS: And Your Honours have that particular portion?
2 JUDGE ORIE: We certainly have, Ms. Loukas.
3 MS. LOUKAS:
4 Q. Now, of course, Mr. Djokanovic, what Mr. Krajisnik was speaking
5 about there was, of course, being spoken about in the context of the
6 negotiations in relation to the Cutileiro Plan; correct?
7 A. That's the article that we talked about the day before yesterday
8 when I said, "Who was it who agreed upon this?" It was the ruling parties
9 that agreed upon this then that's fine, but if that's somebody else whose
10 out of power, then it's a problem. Because if the ruling parties agreed
11 that are the -- in power in Bosnia and Herzegovina then this is something
12 that might be implemented on the ground because the parties had, as their
13 voters, more than 90 per cent of the population in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 Q. Yes. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, if you look at what's stated there,
15 you'll note that the first sentence states that, "If we could start
16 implementing what we have agreed upon, the ethnic division on the ground,"
17 it seems that if you adopt the view that he's talking about the Cutileiro
18 Plan negotiations, then the second sentence where he talks about, "When we
19 start determining the territory, and once the territory is determined, it
20 remains to be established in additional negotiations whose authorities are
21 to function and in what way."
22 So Mr. Djokanovic, I take it you accept the possibility that what
23 is being spoken about there in the first sentence is the negotiations
24 arising from the Cutileiro Plan, and what's being spoken about in the
25 second sentence is additional negotiations.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts.
3 MR. MARGETTS: The witness has given evidence on this point and
4 should Ms. Loukas wish to cross-examine him on that evidence, then we
5 invite her to do so. But putting propositions to the witness that we
6 haven't seen any evidence for is, in our view, not the appropriate way to
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.
9 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, this is cross-examination and I'm
10 doing precisely what I'm supposed to do in cross-examination.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MS. LOUKAS: The witness can either agree or disagree with what
13 I'm putting to him but this is how cross-examination proceeds, Your
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 Mr. Djokanovic, you remember that you've given evidence on these
17 matters that was relatively early on last Tuesday, the first session, and
18 Ms. Loukas takes you through the documents again.
19 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.
20 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, do you need me to repeat the question?
22 A. No need for that.
23 On Tuesday, when we discussed this matter, this portion of Mr.
24 Krajisnik's speech, when taken out of the context of the entire speech
25 there seems to indicate that the parties that were part of this agreement
1 are still in -- dubious, we don't know who they are. But when you look at
2 it, this is obviously part of the Cutileiro Plan agreed upon by the three
3 ruling party under the auspices of an international presence, in this
4 case, the European community.
5 Q. Yes, thank you, Mr. Djokanovic.
6 And also when you move further through the session, if you look at
7 what is page 16 in the English version, that's where Mr. Karadzic speaks
8 after -- well let's see. First of all, we have what I've just been asking
9 you about in relation to Mr. Krajisnik, then, of course, you speak and you
10 talk about the fact that Bosnia-Herzegovina should become a federation and
11 then part of a confederation and the fact that the talks have inspired a
12 degree of optimism for the Serbian people in Bosnia.
13 Then Mr. Krajisnik speaks again about the ties and of course
14 that's been part of the negotiation that the various units can have ties
15 to whatever region they like. And then a man called Mr. -- you might
16 pronounce that name for me because I'm sure my pronunciation will not be
17 as good as yours.
18 A. Yes, I know who this person is, Slavoljub Pologus.
19 Q. And then you come to Mr. Karadzic speaking again and in his
20 portion of the speech again talking about the negotiations, he speaks
21 about "We shall have to establish a full structure of government on the
22 ground because this is our duty to the people who live there: Serbs,
23 Muslims or Croats, so that we can have peace."
24 So that, again, is in the context of the discussions in the
25 Cutileiro Plan; correct, Mr. Djokanovic?
1 A. Yes, it is all about the Cutileiro plan.
2 Q. And then after Mr. Karadzic, Professor Biljana Plavsic speaks and
3 she speaks about the recommendation that she has for the negotiators in
4 future talks as to try and come up with a key to an arrangement which
5 would keep the door open as wide as possible for us to connect with
6 Serbian lands in Yugoslavia; correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And this, of course, was something that was clearly contemplated
9 in terms of the negotiations, that it was within the negotiating sphere of
10 the Cutileiro plan?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And then you have Mr. Dragan Kalinic speaking about the Cutileiro
14 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours, it would be helpful for us following
15 the course of this examination if our learned friend was able to provide
16 the page references to these situations.
17 MS. LOUKAS: Mr. Dragan Kalinic is at page 20 of my version which
18 will probably be at page 19 of Your Honours's version and I'm sure Mr.
19 Djokanovic can assist us with the page in the B/C/S version.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is page 26.
21 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Mr. Djokanovic.
22 Q. So there's Mr. Kalinic speaking about the honour to be invited
23 personally by Mr. Cutileiro. Then we move on to say, for example, page 29
24 in the English version, Mr. Jacic speaking about the Cutileiro Plan. Do
25 you have that portion, Mr. Djokanovic?
1 A. Yes, at some point, Jacic does speak.
2 Q. And he says that, again, speaking in relation to the negotiations
3 around the Cutileiro Plan, "That it seems clear that the entire territory
4 will be divided into three constituent units."
5 Have you got that page?
6 A. It is page 40.
7 Q. Page 40 in the B/C/S. Thank you, Mr. Djokanovic.
8 And then thereafter, a number of different people speak, still on
9 the same topic, and then Mr. Carevic complains that they haven't been
10 provided with the documents?
11 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, apologies for standing up again,
12 however, it would be helpful if the page references were provided.
13 MS. LOUKAS: That's page 31, it's just a few pages on, Mr.
14 Margetts. I'm just going through it in chronological fashion.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Page 44.
16 MS. LOUKAS:
17 Q. And then Mr. Krajisnik, at page 32 in my version, which will
18 probably will be 31 in Your Honours' version -- I'm not sure, in fact,
19 which version the Prosecution are working from. Would you be on page 32
20 or 31, Mr. Margetts?
21 MR. MARGETTS: If you're referring to the speech of Mr. Krajisnik,
22 that appears at the bottom of page 32 in our version.
23 MS. LOUKAS: All right. So we have the same version.
24 Q. And you'll note there, Mr. Djokanovic, that Mr. Krajisnik there
25 refers to a conclusion and that is that the -- he refers to putting a
1 proposal for a conclusion. He's just doing a summing up as a proposal for
2 conclusions. Do you see that, Mr. Djokanovic?
3 A. Yes. In my version, it's page 45.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djokanovic.
5 The conclusions, the proposal, the summation for the proposal of
6 the conclusions is that the document drafted at the Conference on Bosnia
7 on the 16th and 17th of March, 1992, can serve as a basis for reaching a
8 final agreement on resolving the political crisis in Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina. Correct?
10 And that the rest of those conclusions there including -- "It is
11 our estimate that the negotiators have not deviated from the basic
12 concepts supported by the Serbian people," of course refers to the
13 negotiations; correct?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. The next part of the summation is that "The results of the
16 conference do not fall short of the minimal requirements set for the
17 negotiators at the conference on Bosnia by the Serbian Assembly."
18 That again follows from the question of the negotiations; correct?
19 A. [No interpretation]
20 Q. I don't have an answer, Mr. Djokanovic, recorded there.
21 A. Yes, Mr. Krajisnik is asserting here that at that point, the
22 results of the conference were such that they did not fall short of the
23 minimum requirements set by the Serbian Assembly, so that they reflected
24 the positions and the conclusions of the Serbian Assembly.
25 Q. And as part of his summation, he says, "That all suggestions made
1 at today's session of the Assembly will be compiled in shorthand notes and
2 sent to the negotiators and then further that a proposal for the takeover
3 of actual power and establishment of authority in the Republic of the
4 Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina shall be prepared for the next
5 session." That is of course again in the context of the discussions that
6 have been occurring on the Cutileiro Plan; correct?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts.
8 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, it appears that the last two items
9 have been compounded which, it would be our submission, that it would be
10 appropriate that the witness not be confused on this matter and that in
11 accordance with the course taken on the earlier items, each item be
12 referred to individually.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.
14 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I feel certain that the witness
15 was not confused by that because he does have the document in front of him
16 and he's clearly a highly intelligent man.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything indicated here is in
19 conjunction with the conference on Bosnia and Herzegovina, i.e., with the
20 Cutileiro plan.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas, I would like you to not rely on the
22 intelligence of the witnesses and put proper questions to them.
23 Please proceed.
24 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I take on board that I just thought in
25 the circumstances it would be more expeditious in view of the fact that
1 the document is in front of the witness, but if Your Honour would -- I can
2 take longer.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You know I'm not seeking more time, I'm seeking
5 Please proceed.
6 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. So then the discussion goes on and then Mr. Zekic speaks and then
8 Mr. Krajisnik speaks again, and Mr. Krajisnik speaks about the fact that
9 "Nothing's agreed as yet. That this is the working material." And that
10 -- well, you can see what's stated there and I don't want to go through it
11 with you, but basically again, we're talking about the negotiations
12 surrounding the Cutileiro Plan; correct?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, could you -- I'm getting a bit confused.
14 You started with the portion on your page 13, my page 12 that, "What we
15 have agreed upon, the ethnic division on the ground," et cetera, and then
16 we are quite many pages further now and suddenly, in your question, it
17 appears nothing is agreed as yet.
18 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just trying to reconcile because you have asked
20 the witness to give a certain interpretation about what was agreed or not
21 agreed. He gave answers on that last Tuesday and it's not the speed but
22 it's the superficial approach that bothers me at this moment, and
23 therefore when you say "Nothing is agreed yet," I was trying to find it
24 quickly. If you could give me the page so that I can see what we are
25 talking about and how this is to be reconciled with what had been agreed
1 upon as we find it in the ...
2 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, it's all on the same page. I've
3 dealt with the summation of the proposal of the conclusions, then I've
4 gone on to deal with the very next speech which is Mr. Goran Zekic and
5 then the very next speech after that is Mr. Krajisnik.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that's your page number --
7 MS. LOUKAS: That's my page 33. I've got immediately the three
8 topics I've just dealt with are all on the same page.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I find it. If you just give me time to read
10 it. Yes, I found it.
11 You may proceed, Ms. Loukas.
12 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, just going to the portion we were just
14 dealing with which is -- you see where you've got in your version of the
15 document, we were just talking about the -- Mr. Krajisnik's summation of a
16 proposal of the conclusions, then we went to the next page of Mr. Zekic,
17 and now we're back to Mr. Krajisnik speaking.
18 Now, when you look at what Mr. Krajisnik is saying there, and that
19 is in terms of -- well first of all, he starts off with after Mr. Zekic
20 has spoken, he says, "What can I say after hearing Zekic as if we had not
21 discussed anything as if he had just now entered the room."
22 Now of course one often finds that in political debates, does one
23 not, that certain people act as though they haven't -- or perhaps they
24 haven't really heard what's been going on but they're just going to
25 proceed to say what they want to say, basically; correct?
1 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, again, speculation from this witness
2 as to what undefined people tend to do in political debates is not
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the general psychology of politicians, Ms.
5 Loukas, is perhaps not an issue that we would put questions.
6 MS. LOUKAS: I'm happy to rephrase, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
8 MS. LOUKAS:
9 Q. In any event, we've got Mr. Krajisnik pointing out to Mr. Zekic.
10 "Did we not say that nothing was agreed as yet, but that this was working
11 material. Did we not say that one basic principle was established? But
12 this principle was not included in the material in its final form, that
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina was divided into three parts. What they are going to
14 be called remains to be discussed next."
15 So in terms of what Mr. Krajisnik is saying there to your
16 understanding, you were there, is basically: Some things have been
17 agreed, some things haven't been agreed. We're still negotiating.
19 A. I remember very well this detail, this comment by Mr. Zekic
20 because we all laughed in the conference room. By the way, he was a judge
21 of the lower court in Srebrenica, rather, in Bijeljina at the beginning of
22 the war -- in Zenica, rather. So Mr. Krajisnik is talking about the state
23 that had been reached in the Cutileiro Plan at that point.
24 Q. And I think towards the -- let's see, it's in my English version
25 at page 45, I assume that might be on page 44 for Your Honours.
1 What I'd like you to find, Mr. Djokanovic, is a response by Mr.
2 Karadzic where he says at one point, "Bosnia and Herzegovina," this of
3 course -- we're still in March 1992, "was recognised by those who are
4 supposed to recognise it, Bulgaria, Turkey, Iran, and Libya. Perfect. It
5 could not have been better." And he says that, "The European community
6 will not recognise it."
7 Have you found that portion, Mr. Djokanovic?
8 A. I received no translation of your question. Yes, I have found it,
9 it's page 63.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djokanovic. Now, going on there, Mr. Karadzic
11 says, "The European community will not recognise it. I have warned Mr.
12 Cutileiro both about 6 April and about Bajram and we are writing to
13 Badinter that it must not be recognised and to the European community that
14 it must not be recognised at all until these negotiations are finished."
15 Do you see that portion there, Mr. Djokanovic?
16 A. Yes, yes, I do.
17 Q. So basically the feeling was there that recognition of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina prior to the international negotiations being completed
19 in relation to the final form of the three constituent units would be a
20 mistake on the part of the International Community?
21 A. It would have been a disastrous mistake.
22 Q. Okay. Now, I've finished with that particular document, Mr.
23 Djokanovic, and we can go on to a fresh topic.
24 Now, I want to move on to your arrival at Pale in early June.
25 Now, just prior to going to that topic, I just want to deal with something
1 with you quickly. There was, I think, in early June, a danger of certain
2 Muslim soldiers, Green Berets, taking over an army barracks and when you
3 arrived in Pale, you discussed that with the people at Pale. Can you just
4 tell the Trial Chamber a little bit more about what that was about?
5 A. I cannot recall with precision in what state we had the inmates
6 moving out of the Marsal Tito barracks, this is a military compound, of
7 course, but this was a subject that Professor Koljevic and I myself
8 discussed with the president of Serbia, Milosevic, when we paid a visit to
9 him in the building of the Presidency of Serbia, prior to my arrival in
10 Pale, which is to say, that morning in Belgrade. Then at the very exit
11 from the office of Mr. Milosevic, he asked me to do my very best for the
12 cadets to be relocated from the barracks and for us not to make a single
13 false step. He told me literally nothing in that barracks, not a whole
14 barracks are worth the life of a child. So when I arrived at Pale I
15 informed Dr. Karadzic as well as Mr. Krajisnik with what I had talked with
16 Milosevic about. I think some sort of an action of a operation had been
17 prepared by a unit of the police of Republika Srpska to evacuate the
18 cadets, I believe the Minister of the Interior Stanisic as well as Momcilo
19 Mandic were involved for the operations and the Muslim side was aware of
20 this and Green Beret units were on the ready the minute the Serbian
21 special unit started this operation of evacuating the cadets, they were to
22 attack both the cadets and the inmates in the barracks and kill them all.
23 We received this information from one of the most responsible
24 UNPROFOR people in Sarajevo that day. So that very afternoon I prepared a
25 communique for the public, to say that we would not make inadvertent
1 mistake or any mistake at all and disrupt our friendly relations with
2 Serbia. So that evening, in the newsreel on television, they aired a
3 communique signed by the then prime minister Mr. Bozovic which was
4 formulated in very harsh terms, but after that, they broadcast our own
5 release saying we would not make a single mistake and that we would do our
6 very best with our relations with Serbia to remain friendly and for the
7 cadets from the Marsal Tito barracks to be safely relocated from there
8 back to Serbia.
9 Q. So what occurred there was there was a danger of the Muslim Green
10 Berets taking over the army barracks and that the problem was about
11 ensuring that the cadets were protected and not killed; correct?
12 A. Yes, that was the principal problem but there was also something
13 else associated with the Marsal Tito barracks in Sarajevo and the airport
14 in Sarajevo. This was a matter of psychology of the people in the city
15 whoever held these two facilities was actually in control of the city.
16 Q. Now, getting on to what happened when you got to Pale, -- well,
17 Your Honour, I note the time, I'm getting on to a fairly significant
19 JUDGE ORIE: If you would start your new subject, perhaps we
20 better first have the break. We'll then adjourn until 25 minutes past
22 --- Recess taken at 11.58 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 12.30 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam usher, could you escort the witness into the
1 The parties are not instructed to say one wrong word since the
2 laptop of Madam Registrar is out of order.
3 If one would look at the transcript as it appears now, it would
4 ask for a redaction. So I instructed the parties not to say one wrong
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you may proceed.
8 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, before we went to the break, we were coming
10 to your arrival in Pale in June 1992. Now, in relation to your arrival
11 there, you basically were attending meetings every evening; that's
13 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. MARGETTS: In our submission, that misstates the evidence.
16 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any complaint about misstating the
17 evidence, the other party is invited to literally quote.
18 MS. LOUKAS: I did, Your Honour. I'm quoting directly from Mr.
19 Djokanovic's statement. Page 13 of his -- the statement in English,
20 "After I arrived I have, I attended meetings every evening."
21 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, as I understand it, the statement is
22 not in evidence, however, the witness has given evidence on this issue.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. MARGETTS: It would be preferable to refer to that.
25 MS. LOUKAS: Well, in relation to that, Your Honour, of course I'm
1 cross-examining and I am entitled to proceed in this fashion.
2 JUDGE ORIE: On the other hand, Mr. Margetts is right. This is
3 not in evidence, so if you want to put that to the witness, it should be
4 clear what you're putting to the witness, whether you're putting his
5 statement to him or whether you are putting his testimony given on the
6 subject. That should at least be clear.
7 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour, I'm happy to proceed on that
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MS. LOUKAS: I think in that instance, it would be useful for the
11 witness to have the statement in front of him.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be given his statement and
13 then we are talking about the statement, the first or the second one, Ms.
15 MS. LOUKAS: The first statement.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The first one.
17 MS. LOUKAS: It's the first statement, Your Honour, the dates of
18 interview from 12 to 14 February, 13th of July, 29 and 30th of September
19 all in 2003.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the last -- the page number would be, in
22 MS. LOUKAS: In English, the page number I'm referring to is page
24 Your Honour, I have copies of the statement. Of course the
25 Prosecution have the copies of the statement, but I have copies available
1 for the Trial Chamber and the registry.
2 JUDGE ORIE: As I said before, the Chamber has received the
3 statements just for informative reasons prior to the hearing. So we have
4 it in front of us.
5 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. I sent an e-mail about
6 the need to have the statements.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Now, could you still help me out since all the page numbers
9 disappeared while being copied. Are the last three ERN digits 829 or is
10 it --
11 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour, yes.
12 I have a double-sided copy in B/C/S to give the witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MS. LOUKAS: If I might have a moment.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have your statement in front of you, Mr.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do have it.
18 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I'm just ensuring that our interpreter,
19 whilst I'm referring to the English statement, can immediately give the
20 portion in the B/C/S statement that I'm referring to in an effort to
21 ensure that this is expeditious.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, just going to your statement, and I'm
23 referring to the portion of your statement which is page 13 in the
24 English, and it's a paragraph that commences, "After I arrived, I attended
25 meetings every evening with Plavsic, Koljevic, Karadzic, Krajisnik, and
1 sometimes Djeric at the Kikinda facilities. Sometimes people from local
2 municipalities such as Pale, Sokolac, and Serb Sarajevo also attended. It
3 was not institutionalised, it was the beginning of certain work. The
4 meetings were informal."
5 Do you see that portion of your statement? I'm just seeking
6 assistance from our interpreter to ensure that we have the correct
7 paragraph, Your Honour.
8 Yes, it's on page 12 of the B/C/S version. Do you have that, Mr.
10 A. Yes, yes, I do have it before me. I already had occasion to read
11 my statement in Cyrillic in Belgrade last summer and it was already at the
12 time that I noticed this imprecision, but I stated here in my testimony
13 two days ago that we started working at 9.00 or 10.00 in the morning and
14 that we worked most intensely in the afternoon hours. In the beginning,
15 we would simply try to determine what our work tasks for the day were.
16 Q. When you were in conference with the Prosecution, did you alert
17 them to this difference about the evening in your discussions with them
18 prior to giving evidence today?
19 A. During my stay in The Hague in November, I drew their attention to
20 this and to certain dates concerning some of the Assembly sessions in
21 March, that they were not congruous with the actual dates.
22 MS. LOUKAS: I call on the Prosecution if there is a correction
23 statement arising from that conference.
24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'm not aware of a correction
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MS. LOUKAS:
3 Q. Who did you speak to, Mr. Djokanovic?
4 A. I spoke to Mr. Margetts about the statement and about some
5 passages that were imprecise that I noticed because I had occasion to read
6 my statement in the Cyrillic version.
7 Q. And when did you speak to Mr. Margetts about that?
8 A. In November last year when I was attending this proofing session
9 for my testimony here, but I have to note that I did not consider this to
10 be especially important. I did say that we worked from morning until the
11 evening and I stayed in this facility throughout the day so I was unable
12 to arrive there in the evening because I hadn't been away during the day
14 Q. In any event, this correction and other corrections, you say that
15 you informed Mr. Margetts of during your proofing session in November of
16 last year; correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 MS. LOUKAS: If Mr. Margetts would care to confirm that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, the issue is, I think, clear. Ms.
20 Loukas asks ourselves why the -- she was not informed about any
21 corrections the witness made to his own statement.
22 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, the appropriate course would be for
23 myself and the others who spoke to Mr. Djokanovic to refer to any notes
24 that were produced in those sessions and to provide some response to the
25 Defence. I'm not in the position to provide a response at this time.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, we've heard that the witness said that he
2 not specifically met in the evenings but was present there all day and
3 that therefore the work went on during the day not specifically excluding
4 the evening but certainly the emphasis is different.
5 Would you please check your notes and see what the Defence during
6 the -- well the next break would be the long break -- to see whether
7 there's any other issue about dates which should be brought to the
8 attention of the Defence.
9 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. I am in a position to respond to
10 the matter relating to the dates because I do recall that issue.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. MARGETTS: It appears at the start of the document where there
13 is a reference to an Assembly session. By the context of the statement,
14 it is clear that the reference is a typographical error. I'm not aware of
15 that matter being communicated to the Defence because, as I understand it,
16 it was considered to be insignificant.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. MARGETTS: And, in fact, self-explanatory on its face.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well yes, of course, I do not know what it is exactly
20 in general terms. It is to be preferred not to leave the puzzles to the
21 other party on what you notice, but on the other hand, if it's really an
22 irrelevant issue or something which is so obvious that you do not continue
23 to call each other by the telephone on a continuing basis.
24 Please proceed, Ms. Loukas, and the issue has been -- is there.
25 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. In any event, going to that paragraph, of course, Mr. Djokanovic,
2 you would confirm that these meetings were not institutionalised and the
3 meetings were informal; correct?
4 A. We worked the whole day from some 9.00, 10.00 in the morning until
5 late in the evening and I said that we worked most intensely in the
6 afternoon hours because Mr. Karadzic seemed to be more active. In the
7 morning, we would be agreeing on certain things if we had some of the
8 ministers coming over from Jahorina then we would discuss matters with
9 them and then in the afternoon, we would remain in the building, receive
10 people arriving from the different municipalities who had not been really
11 invited but who would come in and then we would discuss matters with them.
12 I remember there wasn't a single day that we started out with
13 greeting those present saying we're opening the meeting, the minutes are
14 being held. I just remember that Mr. Koljevic, Mr. Krajisnik, and even
15 sometimes Mr. Karadzic would write down certain things, would take notes
16 of certain things, although we were saying at the time that it wouldn't be
17 bad for the meetings of the Presidency to be formalised for notes to be
18 taken and this was done in the second half of 1992 with the meetings of
19 the Presidency and the government.
20 Q. Now just in relation to these meetings, Mr. Djokanovic, I just
21 want you to confirm that they were not institutionalised, that they were
22 informal; that's correct, is it not?
23 A. They were not formal in the sense of a session of the Presidency.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, if you look at your next paragraph, it's
25 true, isn't it, that during your discussions with the leadership, that you
1 realised that communications with the municipal authorities in respect of
2 civil matters was poor; correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And of course you cannot offer any evidence in relation to what
5 the communication was like in terms of police and military matters because
6 you don't know what the communication was like in terms of those matters;
8 A. No.
9 Q. And it's, in fact, for that reason that you recommended that
10 someone should go to the field; correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And of course going on to the paragraph, the next after the one
13 we were just dealing with, that's on page 14 of the English version --
14 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, again, it's difficult to, in fact, see
15 whether or not, from the question, whether or not my learned friend
16 intended to elicit a confirmation of the paragraph that she was referring
17 to in the statement, or alternatively, she was just referring generally to
18 the reasons why Dr. Djokanovic considered they should go to the field, but
19 her quotation of the paragraph in issue was incomplete and there is a
20 sentence that's been omitted which precedes the sentence regarding the
21 recommendation to go to the field.
22 MS. LOUKAS: Well, I'm happy to quote that as well, Your Honour.
23 I don't have a problem with that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then please do so.
25 MS. LOUKAS:
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. When one looks at the paragraph, Mr. Djokanovic, it also includes
2 the statement, "It appeared to me that the leadership wanted to establish
3 a state but it had not formulated the way it should go about establishing
4 responsible government in the municipalities." And that's correct as
5 well, isn't it, Mr. Djokanovic?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. And in fact that entire paragraph is true and accurate; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And when we go on to the very next paragraph, that, of course, is
10 true and correct, is it not? If you want to reread the paragraph, but of
11 course you have confirmed at the beginning of your evidence that your
12 statements were true and correct?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, just from a practical point of view, Ms. Loukas,
14 the statements are not in evidence. Are you going to tender them?
15 Because if you say the next paragraph is correct or not, it's unclear what
16 the evidence is.
17 MS. LOUKAS: I am going to tender them, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MS. LOUKAS:
20 Q. So that next paragraph is, of course -- I think that's where we're
21 up to -- is true and correct?
22 A. At the beginning of today's -- of my today's testimony, I stated
23 that I stand by all the statements that I gave. Of course I take into
24 account the different, perhaps, inconsistencies or imprecisions due to the
25 translation process, so I don't have to confirm paragraph by paragraph, I
1 do stand by the entire statement.
2 Q. Yes, thank you, Mr. Djokanovic.
3 Now, the other aspect of course that I -- that is also true is
4 that these translation issues that you've referred to are, of course, not
5 translation issues of any substance but only of syntax as you confirmed
6 earlier today in your evidence?
7 A. [No interpretation]
8 Q. So the situation is that when you arrived in Pale, you heard that
9 the people in Pale did not have communication with the crisis staffs;
11 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I object to that question. My learned
12 friend has just elicited the evidence that during the discussions with the
13 leadership, the witness realised that communications with the municipal
14 authorities in respect of --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Margetts, --
16 MR. MARGETTS: -- civil matters --
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- may I point to you from what I understood is that
18 Ms. Loukas was quoting from page 14, second line. "When I arrived in
19 Pale, I heard ..." I'll just have a look. "I heard that they did not
20 have communication with the Crisis Staffs." I do understand that there
21 were other parts of the statement that would be quoted, but I think Ms.
22 Loukas was correctly quoting this part.
23 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.
25 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. And that if you go on to the next paragraph, the one that begins,
2 "In cases when the Municipal Assembly is unable to hold a session." Do
3 you see that paragraph?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Of course you'd formed the opinion that the Crisis Staffs were
6 renegade from this legal establishment; correct?
7 A. Knowing the situation in my municipality of Novo Sarajevo prior to
8 my departure for Belgrade, I knew how the citizens felt about the work of
9 the Crisis Staff in that municipality. Upon my arrival to Pale, the
10 people there told me that they had trouble communicating with the
11 structures on the ground and this is something that Mr. Karadzic also
12 mentioned at the Assembly session in Banja Luka, and this is the only
13 session that I did not attend because I was in Belgrade.
14 Q. And of course you were informed by Karadzic that the Crisis Staffs
15 acted as they wished and they had their own laws and brought decisions of
16 their own free will independent of the higher level; correct?
17 A. No. It was not Radovan Karadzic who told me so. This was my
18 interpretation following my touring of the field that they were pretty
19 much detached from the political leadership and then on my arrival to
20 Zvornik when I saw that the local enactment that they had passed and that
21 were published in the local official gazette, this was a confirmation to
22 what I had heard from the Presidency, that the Crisis Staffs were very
24 Q. And I think, in fact, in your statement there in that paragraph,
25 it indicates that, "I was informed by Karadzic that they acted as they
1 wished, they had their own laws, and brought decisions of their own free
2 will independent of the higher level."
3 A. That's fine.
4 Q. Okay. Now, it was, of course, your idea to work to organise the
5 War Commissioners; correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Now -- and your aim was to establish legitimate vertical
8 communication between the leaders and the municipalities; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. And of course your role was to establish the government at
11 a municipal level and you had nothing to do with the police or the army
12 and their activities and you have no knowledge of their activities or any
13 communications that they had with Pale.
14 A. The activity of a republican commissioner and the established
15 municipal commissions was to prepare the session of the Municipal Assembly
16 by involving the deputies who were elected in the 1990 elections. Once
17 the Assembly is constituted, it should establish the legal organs, that
18 is, the executive committee and that's in accordance with our prewar laws
19 and the president of the Municipal Assembly to be elected by the deputies
20 within the local parliament and not by the citizens in the general
22 Q. So of course you confirm what's contained at page 15 of the -- of
23 your English statement, the sentence that begins, "My role was to
24 establish the government at a municipal level. I had nothing to do with
25 the police or the army and their activities and I have no knowledge of
1 their activities or the communications that they had with Pale." Correct?
2 Do you see that paragraph in your statement there before you?
3 A. Yes. Within my tasks, I had no contacts with either the police or
4 the military until after the meeting in Zvornik, that was following the
5 meeting attended by Karadzic and -- Mladic. That was when I was already a
6 republican commissioner and we agreed that the problems related to the
7 police in Zvornik, namely, the personnel difficulties, should be something
8 that I should try to solve in my contacts with the chief of the police.
9 Q. Now, in relation to your visit to Vlasenica, you, of course, and
10 I'm referring to page 16 of your English statement, which I think is in
11 the B/C/S. I'll just check. That would be page 17 in your document, you
12 indicate there that you and Karadzic sat down and spoke with Mr. Bajagic.
13 Is that the correct pronunciation, Mr. Djokanovic?
14 A. In the summer of 1992, Zvolko Bajagic came to Pale and Dr.
15 Karadzic and myself talked to him.
16 Q. And Mr. Karadzic said to Bajagic, do your best to save as many
17 people as possible referring, of course, to the Muslims; correct?
18 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, that, in fact, does misstate the
19 paragraph and I invite learned counsel to read from the paragraph that she
20 is referring to.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas. If there's any confusion about what it
22 says, then please correct it.
23 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I wouldn't have thought there is
24 any confusion. The paragraph is in front of Mr. Djokanovic. It's there
25 in black and white to be read, rather than my reading out the entire
1 paragraph in light of the limited time I have for cross-examination, I
2 invite Mr. Djokanovic to confirm the truth and accuracy of what's stated
3 in the paragraph.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then -- let me just see whether I have the
5 -- it's the Vlasenica visit.
6 MS. LOUKAS: It's page 16 in the English version, Your Honour, in
7 the middle of the page. And it's page 17 in the B/C/S version.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but there are several. I mean -- there are
9 several paragraphs in which --
10 MS. LOUKAS: It's the last paragraph in relation to Vlasenica and
11 it's just before the heading Sekovici.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So starting with "around this time". Yes.
13 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, and for the record, I'd just like it
14 to be clear for the witness that he is not responding to the question that
15 was the put by Ms. Loukas. Now he's being asked a different question.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Usually if Ms. Loukas doesn't get an answer to a
17 question, she's able to ask the witness again, but let's just --
18 You want confirmation of this paragraph to be correct.
19 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour, then I'll have a follow-up
21 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please read that paragraph.
22 Have you read it, Mr. Djokanovic?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I have. This is not
24 during my visit to Vlasenica, this is after my visit to Vlasenica, that
25 is, Mr. Bajagic's visit to Pale and the Presidency. He came to Pale
1 during the day and was received by Dr. Karadzic and myself.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It correctly reflects what you said in the interview?
3 Yes, I see the witness nodding yes.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.
6 MS. LOUKAS:
7 Q. So Mr. Djokanovic, just in relation to that, you've confirmed that
8 the discussion wasn't during your visit to Vlasenica but that Mr. Bajagic
9 actually came to Pale and of course during this visit to Pale, Karadzic
10 said to Bajagic, "do your best to save as many people as possible". And,
11 of course, when Mr. Karadzic was referring "do your best to save as
12 many people as possible", he was of course referring to Muslims?
13 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. MARGETTS: Again the evidence is being misstated. Potentially
16 there's some ambiguity in that misstatement this time. So let me be quite
17 precise. It was not a reference to Muslims in general, it was a reference
18 to Muslims in Vlasenica who had voted in favour of a united Yugoslavia,
19 that is, a small group of Muslims.
20 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that, the witness
21 has the statement in front of him, he has just read it. I am
22 cross-examining. The witness can agree or disagree with my proposition.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, whether the -- could you please take
24 your earphones off for one second.
25 Whether or not the line, "Do your best to save as many people as
1 possible," refers to a category that has been mentioned before or whether
2 it's a general statement, Ms. Loukas is entirely entitled to put that
3 question to the witness and your intervention was not appropriate because
4 you have directed the witness to an interpretation which is not the only
5 one of this paragraph.
6 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, could I have a right of reply on that?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. MARGETTS: In our submission, saving Muslims is very different
9 to saving the category of Muslims that is described.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, yes, of course it's different, but
11 Karadzic said, and then the line that follows is, "Do your best to save as
12 many people as possible." It is your implicit understanding that saving
13 as many people as possible refers the category or part of the category
14 that was mentioned before.
15 Ms. Loukas, of course, with a leading question which is allowed in
16 cross-examination, now tries to perhaps elicit a different understanding
17 of that line from the witness and she's fully entitled to do so. And it's
18 not for you to intervene at that moment and say this line should be
19 understood to say as the Prosecution understands it. Of course I do
21 And finally, what's the correct understanding of this line spoken
22 by Mr. Karadzic is finally up to the Chamber to make that assessment.
23 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I apologise. I haven't made my point
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. MARGETTS: I accept that entirely, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. MARGETTS: But my point is this. Insofar as Ms. Loukas is
4 referring to paragraphs in the statement, asking the witness to read them,
5 and then asking questions which apparently it's ambiguous as to whether
6 they are confirmatory of the statement and what was intended in the
7 statement or in fact they are new topics and they are unrelated to the
8 statement, I consider that that is a matter which could confuse the
9 witness and as a consequence his evidence will be unclear. In other
10 words, it will be unclear whether he is responding as to what he meant
11 when he made the statement or alternatively, whether he is responding to
12 the question what he thought Karadzic meant when Karadzic made that
14 It's that clarification, that clarity that we seek.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You could have done it in re-examination as
16 well, but Ms. Loukas, at the same time, I give you some guidance. That if
17 you say please read the whole of the paragraph, is the whole of the
18 paragraph correct and then take out certain parts, and then put questions
19 to the witness which would perhaps at a later stage need to be clarified
20 anyhow, then it's a more direct way to get -- to find with sufficient
21 clarity what the position of the witness, what the knowledge of the
22 witness is. And if he's asked for interpretations of words spoken by
23 others, to make that entirely clear whether his interpretation is asked or
24 whether -- well, let's proceed.
25 MS. LOUKAS: I thought I had done that with the question but I'm
1 happy to rephrase.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you please would. Let's keep this all in
3 our minds and try to get the clearest answers.
4 Could you please put your headphones up again.
5 MS. LOUKAS:
6 Q. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, we're back on that paragraph again. The
7 paragraph -- that last paragraph before Sekovici, which I think is on page
8 17 of your statement. We're still there. So in I any event, you've read
9 that paragraph of your statement and you've confirmed that it's true and
10 correct; yes?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In light of the fact that --
13 A. But I would have a comment, if you allow me. May I give you this
14 comment that I have on this particular paragraph?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, yes, it's up to you. It's better to hear
16 the comment of the witness at this moment or put a question to him.
17 Yes, please make the comment you would like to make.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said that we could accept
19 this entire statement without the details, without invoking this or that
20 paragraph, that means that I stand by the entire statement. As I have had
21 occasion to read this statement, I did see some inconsistencies, some
22 vague things from beginning to end which were not there during my
23 interview with the investigators. So I actually associated all this with
24 the translation problem from language to language.
25 In this particular paragraph, there is an example of exactly that
1 and that's why I'm commenting on this situation. Around about that time,
2 Zvonko Bajagic from Vlasenica came to Pale and informed Radovan Karadzic
3 and me about a particular Muslim from Vlasenica. That is true. Karadzic
4 sat down and spoke with Bajagic. He informed us that he was unable to
5 save the Muslims from Vlasenica who had voted in favour of a united
6 Yugoslavia. What he said was --
7 JUDGE ORIE: When someone is -- your speed of speech goes up so
9 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, the interpreter could not catch the last
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you perhaps restart, Witness, at "Karadzic and
12 I sat down and spoke with Bajagic". Yes, and please continue.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. "He informed us that he was
14 unable to save", what is written here is, "he could not save the Muslims
15 in Vlasenica who had voted in favour of a united Yugoslavia." It seems as
16 if there had existed a plan to save the Muslims who had acted in favour of
17 a united Yugoslavia. What he said was that he was unable to save -- he
18 was unable to save even those who had -- who had voted in favour of
19 Yugoslavia, not even those who had voted in favour of a united Yugoslavia
20 was he able to save is what he said. And he mentioned family by the name
21 of Sedlar. There is a surname in Vlasenica to my knowledge, but this
22 Sedlar is also a craft, a trade, harnesses, saddle maker, so I'm still
23 unclear as to whether this was a Sedlar surnamed person or someone whose
24 trade was being a saddler.
25 Karadzic said what he did say so that is the complete truth about
1 this. That is why I'm asking you, Ms. Loukas, if we are going to go
2 paragraph by paragraph, to read them precisely so that if anything unclear
3 should arise, we can deal with that immediately as we go along because I
4 have observed these kinds of discrepancies throughout the statement which
5 do not affect substantially the truthfulness and substance of my
6 statement, but some technical things, unclarities can appear and that's
7 why I'm asking you to proceed in this way.
8 MS. LOUKAS: And that's why we're proceeding paragraph by
9 paragraph because you have said that there are these discrepancies of
10 syntax, Mr. Djokanovic. So I think we're in agreement.
11 Now, in any event, Mr. Karadzic's reply was, "Do your best to save
12 as many people as possible." Correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And as far as you were concerned, what Mr. Karadzic was saying
15 was, "Do your best to save as many people as possible." He was referring
16 to people, all people, including Muslims; correct?
17 A. Had Karadzic not said it like that, I would have left Pale that
18 very moment.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djokanovic.
20 Now, Mr. Djokanovic, I'm just going over to page 17 of your
21 English statement. That is the first paragraph on page 17. I just need
22 to confirm what that is in the B/C/S version. That's page 18 in your
23 statement and it's the second paragraph on page 18.
24 Now we're referring to what happened in Zvornik. Now, you
25 indicate there that you didn't receive any specific information about war
1 crimes that had been committed against Muslims in Zvornik from the Zvornik
2 leadership and that you did not ask about specifics and you only knew from
3 talks about "bad things that happened." Correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And of course if you want to read the entire paragraph, the entire
6 paragraph, and confirm it's true and correct?
7 A. Quite correct.
8 Q. Moving on to page 18 of the English, which is the second paragraph
9 on that page and I'll just confirm what the page number is in B/C/S. Page
10 19, fourth paragraph, Mr. Djokanovic.
11 If you'd like to confirm that that paragraph is true and correct.
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. And of course as you understood in your discussions that Mr.
14 Mijatovic in the context of discussing the problems in Zvornik indicated
15 to you that Arkan had slapped him.
16 A. [No interpretation]
17 Q. And Mr. Grujic indicated that he was detained in a cellar by
18 people from the paramilitary units; correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Okay. Now, going on to page 19, that is under the heading
21 "Reporting to Pale," and I'll just confirm what page that is in the B/C/S.
22 That's page 20 in the fifth paragraph in the B/C/S version. If you'd like
23 to confirm that that particular paragraph is true and correct, Mr.
25 A. It is correct but I'm not quite sure still whether Djeric was
1 present because that was when I had returned that evening or that
2 afternoon from Pale.
3 Q. Now, just in relation to that, basically it's true to say that
4 what you informed the -- what you say you informed the Presidency of was
5 that war crimes were taking place and that people were informing you that
6 "bad things had happened"; correct?
7 A. Yes, that bad things, ugly things were happening in the field and
8 that they looked like war crimes. I was quite clear in what I said. I
9 said that action needed to be taken, that we needed to organise a meeting
10 with those people as soon as possible to see what was actually happening
11 in the field.
12 Q. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, moving on to the next -- second next
13 paragraph after that, you state there that -- I'm talking about the
14 paragraph that commences "When I went back to Pale, I informed Karadzic
15 and Krajisnik of all the observations that I made on my visit to the
16 municipalities and all of the events that I learned of. I cannot recall
17 precisely what events I knew of at the time and which precise events I may
18 have reported."
19 That's true and correct, is it not?
20 A. This was in response to a question by the investigator because I
21 had talked -- he asked me whether I had talked on this topic with Karadzic
22 and Krajisnik and I said that I indeed had talked with them and then he
23 asked me a follow-up question whether we had talked about anything
24 specific in relation to those things. And I had said no, we hadn't
25 because I had no specific data. The municipal leadership people hadn't
1 given me any specific information and then it was not my task at that time
2 to investigate these matters.
3 I just conveyed a general information to them about the situation
4 in the field.
5 Q. So this general information about the situation in the field that
6 you conveyed, of course, did not involve you actually witnessing any war
7 crimes, of course, but conveying that "many bad things had happened."
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, I just want to move on to your second
11 statement to the Prosecution, that is the one dated 16th, 17th and 18th of
12 December, 2003.
13 Your Honours, I can indicate that I have copies in English and
14 B/C/S should anyone require them?
15 JUDGE ORIE: We have the statements in front of us.
16 MS. LOUKAS: I'll just provide a copy in English and B/C/S to the
18 Yes, thank you, Your Honour. I'm just letting the interpreter
19 know that we'll have to do the same thing with the English and the B/C/S
20 as we were doing with the previous statement so we can ensure that we're
21 on the same page.
22 I think everybody now has a copy, Your Honour. Does Your Honour
23 want a copy of the B/C/S as well?
24 JUDGE ORIE: I think Madam Registrar already got it.
25 MS. LOUKAS:
1 Q. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, we're now on your statement to the OTP of 16,
2 17, and 18th, December, 2003. I think you should have a copy of B/C/S in
3 front of you.
4 Now, let's go to page 3 in the English, that's at the top of the
5 page in the English and we'll just confirm what that is in the B/C/S.
6 That is page 4 in the B/C/S. So it's the first paragraph in the B/C/S on
7 page 4.
8 So you have that before you, Mr. Djokanovic? Now, I want you to
9 read through that paragraph, that's the paragraph that begins, "At the
10 early stages of the war, the local authority was in the hands of the
11 Crisis Staffs who were not elected by the people and it seemed to me that
12 their wish to rule was very strong and that they wanted to take charge of
13 everything and not yield their authority to any other state organ."
14 Do you see that paragraph?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Apparently, it's actually page 3 in the second paragraph of the
17 B/C/S, but you nevertheless seem to have found it, Mr. Djokanovic.
18 Now, you've read that paragraph in its entirety, Mr. Djokanovic?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. And you can confirm that that statement contained within that
21 paragraph, that entire paragraph, is true and accurate; correct?
22 A. Absolutely correct.
23 Q. I also want to take you to page 4 in the English.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, I just heard you to ask the witness to
25 confirm, of course he, in general terms, confirmed the correctness of his
1 statement so what you are doing is more or less drawing our attention to
2 the importance of that paragraph. You could even do that on the basis of
3 the general confirmation of the witness if --
4 MS. LOUKAS: I did, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- if you would say that paragraph is very much in
6 light of the general confirmation of the witness gave, I would very much
7 like to draw your attention to that paragraph without even asking him to
8 reconfirm that again. Unless there's any doubt in your mind.
9 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour there's no doubt in my mind. It's just
10 that the witness has indicated that there may be the occasional issue of
11 syntax, or what have you, so there's no doubt in anyone's mind in the
12 courtroom that we are dealing with the truthfulness and accuracy, the
13 precise accuracy of the paragraph in question.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed. The only thing -- it doesn't make
15 that much sense to us to ask -- could you please read, is this correct?
16 You could do that with every paragraph and if there are no further
17 questions then perhaps you could just accept the statement as being
19 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.
20 Q. In any event, Mr. Djokanovic, as far as you were concerned your
21 knowledge in relation to the Crisis Staffs was that they were operating on
22 a pretty much autonomous basis and did not wish to yield their authority
23 anywhere else; correct?
24 A. That's the way things looked; however, in those municipalities
25 which I toured, they had accepted a decision to form commissions. There
1 were no major problems, not the kind of problems that I would remember in
2 terms of the transition to a new stage with the War Commissions actually
3 preparing decisions of the Municipal Assemblies.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djokanovic. Now, moving on to page 4 in the
5 English version, that's the second full paragraph. If you want to have a
6 look at that paragraph -- it's exactly the same in B/C/S, apparently, on
7 page 4. Just have a quick read of that paragraph and I want to ask you a
8 question in relation to it.
9 A. Which paragraph is that, please?
10 Q. It's the second full paragraph on page 4. It commences, "By only
11 declaring a state of imminent threat of war, the Republika Srpska was able
12 to organise itself as though war was going on but continued to act as
14 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, when you say the second full paragraph,
15 you mean to say -- yes.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Third.
17 MS. LOUKAS: We have a half a paragraph on top.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Now it's clear to me, yes.
19 MS. LOUKAS:
20 Q. And I'm referring to that paragraph that begins, and I'll say it a
21 little bit more slowly this time for the interpreters, "By only declaring
22 a state of imminent threat of war, the Republika Srpska was able to
23 organise itself as though the war was going on but continue to act as
24 though it was peacetime and therefore maintain the legal background of
1 Do you see that portion of your statement there?
2 A. Yes, yes, yes, that's correct.
3 Q. And in relation to that, of course, whether there was a state of
4 imminent threat of war or a declared state of war, of course, carried
5 different legal implications, constitutionally; correct?
6 A. No. The state of war was not introduced at the time. At the
7 time, there was only the state of an imminent threat of war.
8 Q. Yes, I think we're in agreement. The state of war had not been
9 declared and legally, and constitutionally, what we were dealing with at
10 that time was a declaration only of a state of imminent threat of war;
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. Now, moving on to page 6 of the English statement, and that is the
14 second last paragraph which, in B/C/S, will be confirmed for me in a
15 moment. So that, in your version, is the sixth page, last paragraph, Mr.
17 Now, again, in that paragraph, do you want the opportunity to read
18 it so we can confirm that it's truthful and accurate and there are no
19 problems with syntax?
20 A. It's quite correct.
21 Q. Now -- so as far as you were concerned, the impression that you
22 had when you arrived in Pale was that the Crisis Staffs acted
23 independently of the higher authority; correct?
24 A. That was my impression, yes.
25 Q. And in fact, as an example of that, in Banja Luka and Zvornik, the
1 regional and municipal Crisis Staffs did all the work necessary to create
2 mini states; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Just another matter in relation to -- and this is at page 11 of
5 the English statement, this is the very last paragraph on page 11. That
6 is page 12, Mr. Djokanovic, and third paragraph, Mr. Djokanovic.
7 So I'm talking now --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Now you are -- before we have any confusion, now you
9 are not referring to the fourth full paragraph but to the third full
10 paragraph on page 12.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, in the English, I'm referring to
12 the last paragraph on page 11. In the B/C/S, I will just confirm.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It's the fourth paragraph but the third full
15 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, it's the third full paragraph, yes.
16 Q. Do you have that before you, Mr. Djokanovic?
17 A. I have page 12 before me.
18 Q. Yes, that's correct. And we're looking at that paragraph
19 entitled, "There is an interview with Alija Izetbegovic under the title
20 Civil State or Civil War." Now you confirm the truthfulness and accuracy
21 of the substance and the syntax in relation to that paragraph, Mr.
23 A. I testified about this matter two days ago and we looked at these
24 two documents here.
25 Q. Indeed. Now, Mr. Djokanovic, Mr. Zulfikarpasic, and we're talking
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 around end of 1991 at this point, Mr. Zulfikarpasic, the head of the MBO
2 refers to Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, the leader of the SDA, distributing arms
3 to his people through the arms of his party; correct?
4 A. That's correct, that's what Mr. Zulfikarpasic stated in his
5 interview and he talked to Mr. Karadzic and myself about this after the
6 Zvornik forum when we stopped by on the road between Tisce and Sekovici in
7 a restaurant.
8 Q. And of course you'd heard about this sort of thing not just from
9 Mr. Zulfikarpasic; correct?
10 A. Yes, this was common knowledge.
11 Q. Now, I want to go to page 12, Mr. Djokanovic, of your statement,
12 and that is at -- in the B/C/S, I'm -- now we're dealing with the fourth
13 full paragraph on page 12 of the English, and that will be page 13, third
14 paragraph in the B/C/S version.
15 Now, you see that paragraph, "I don't believe there was a clearly
16 stated plan set down by the republican leadership for ethnic cleansing."
17 Now, just in relation to that entire paragraph, if you just want
18 to check it for truthfulness, accuracy and no problems with syntax. I
19 take it you confirm it's truthful and accurate in all respects?
20 A. Everything stated in the paragraph's correct except in that part
21 where it's Karadzorde stated that if the Serbs wanted to defend themselves
22 then every Serb must kill a Turk. This was something that dates from
23 early 19th century, the first Serb uprising against the Osmans, or rather,
24 the Turks, where he addressing the Serb warriors said so and he said that
25 they should first start by rising against Subasas who were then
1 -- the village to kill them. The village elderlies or the village
3 Q. That is just a historical reference as you say to the early 19th
4 century. You're nodding, perhaps for the transcript we should have a
5 verbal answer. Just confirm yes rather than just nodding, that's all, Mr.
7 A. Very well. I will -- I would like to comment on this further by
8 your leave, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
10 MS. LOUKAS: Well, yes, Your Honour, I just want to continue with
11 my cross-examination.
12 JUDGE ORIE: If the witness gives at a certain moment a point
13 where he would like to comment -- unless you have specific questions on
14 this paragraph.
15 MS. LOUKAS: I do have a specific question on this paragraph and
16 I'll happily invite the witness ...
17 JUDGE ORIE: I'll give you an opportunity to give your comment but
18 first, Ms. Loukas has a question for you in relation to this paragraph.
19 MS. LOUKAS: And I assure you, Mr. Djokanovic, I also will give
20 you an opportunity in my cross-examination to further answer, it's just
21 that I wanted to ask you a further question in relation to this.
22 Q. Now where you've stated there, "I don't believe there was a
23 clearly stated plan set down by the republican leadership for ethnic
24 cleansing," obviously, Mr. Djokanovic, if you thought there was some sort
25 of plan of that nature, you would never have become involved as a
1 republican commissioner; correct?
2 A. That's correct. When I was looking -- when I was -- when I wanted
3 to comment, I wanted to comment on the individual sentences written down
4 here because these are my statements in response to the investigator's
5 question. So when I said so that I don't believe there was a clearly
6 stated plan set down by the republican leadership for ethnic cleansing,
7 that's something that I'm saying in response to the question put to me by
8 the investigator. And it is true that, at the time, I was not aware of
9 the existence of any such plan for the ethnic cleansing of other peoples
10 or otherwise I would not have been present at Pale at the time.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djokanovic.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You move to another paragraph, Ms. Loukas, because
13 then ...
14 MS. LOUKAS: I'm just about to move to the next paragraph, Your
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I'd like then to have a clarification on the
17 previous paragraph.
18 You explained, Mr. Djokanovic, that there was no clearly-stated
19 plan and you say, "It's true at the time I was not aware of the existence
20 of any such plan." Has that changed. If you say "at the time", has that
21 -- I mean looking back now, is it different for you?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, a minute ago, I said
23 that I do believe so at present. I just gave one reservation because I'm
24 not privy to this entire affair. I just can claim that I knew that they
25 did not have a plan for ethnic cleansing. However, I also mentioned the
1 fear that was present amongst the Serbian population and then I associated
2 it with the World War II. But there was this moment when the supporters
3 of the HDZ at their rallies were singing, "Hang the Serbs. There aren't
4 as many Serbs as there are trees for them to be hung on." There was
5 another poem that was sung by the Muslims from Trebinje to Bosanski Brod,
6 there wouldn't be a single Serb or a single Croat. So Trebinje is of
7 course bordering with Montenegro where as Bosanski Brod is in Croatia in
8 Eastern Slavonia. In Croatia they're singing, "There aren't as many
9 willows, the trees as -- as many Serbs as willows that there are. That
10 was the song sung by the Croats, whereas the Muslims stated -- sang
11 another song saying that there wouldn't be any Croats or Serbs left, just
13 JUDGE ORIE: When you said you didn't know about a plan at the
14 time, at this moment you're still taking the position -- at the same time,
15 -- in the same paragraph, you say so whilst there was no detailed plan for
16 ethnic cleansing, the fear that the Serbs motivated them to react in the
17 way that they did and resulted also in the crimes. That they did react in
18 the way they did sounds rather vague and immediately follows on the line
19 where you say that "There was no detailed plan for ethnic cleansing." The
20 way they reacted, was that actually ethnic cleansing or was it not?
21 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to --
22 JUDGE ORIE: I would first like to have the witness answer this
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During my testimony two days ago, I
25 mentioned the euphoria that existed on one side and that was the winner's
1 euphoria on the side of the Muslims and the Croats after the adoption of
2 the memorandum on the independence, or rather, the international
3 recognition of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Whereas the other side was enraged
4 with the developments. Now I'm talking about the Serbs from
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina because they were being deprived of Yugoslavia divided
6 from Serbia and Montenegro. The Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina although a
7 constituent nation there were being outvoted in the Assembly. Nobody took
8 account of their plebescite in 1992, in November 1991. Everybody is
9 recognising the referendum results, and as a result of that,
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina is being recognised although we know that the
11 referendum was only attended by Croats and Muslims.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. I think you are now explaining why
13 there was fear among the Serbs. My question, however, was in view of your
14 statement where it reads "So whilst there was no detailed plan for ethnic
15 cleansing, the fear that the Serbs felt motivated them to react in the way
16 that they did." And I said to you, the reaction in the way as they did
17 sounds rather vague and since in the same line you are saying that there
18 was no detailed plan for ethnic cleansing, my question to you was, whether
19 understandable or not, whether there were good reasons for fear. I'm not
20 asking for that, it may well be.
21 My question is whether the way they reacted, whether you
22 considered that to be ethnic cleansing. I mean is this an implicit
23 reference to ethnic cleansing?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sentences that I stated here
25 were an introduction to what I wanted to say and you just put a question
1 to me in relation to that.
2 There were terrible war crimes committed on the ground, ethnic
3 cleansing took place, even genocide in some cases. As a human being and
4 as a physician, that is something that happened in World War II, I'm
5 sorry. Now as a physician, as a person as a human being, and as a
6 politician, I'm trying to grasp what the cause of all this was. I don't
7 know. But as far as I know, there was -- the republican political
8 leadership of Republika Srpska did not have a plan, nor did Republika
9 Srpska and The Republic of Serbia have a plan for ethnic cleansing of the
10 population in Bosnia-Herzegovina in the Serb-controlled areas. What
11 happened was on a massive scale. I said two days ago that my position is
12 that all those who have committed crimes must be held to account and all
13 those who did not report these crimes must also be held to account.
14 I have tried to find any justification for this and that's when I
15 thought of the Karadzorde statement when he was starting this first
16 uprising, perhaps that might have motivated the people because one must
17 not forget in 1990 at the rallies of the SDA, they talked along the lines
18 of "We had been ruling here for 500 years and we will again, we will
19 introduce Sheriat's laws." Once I asked in one of the interviews on the
20 TV, I asked the SDA activists whether they were identifying themselves
21 with the Turks from the Ottoman Empire.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can understand your need for understanding
23 what happened, of course but the first and most important thing for this
24 Chamber is to first of all to establish what has happened at all.
25 So therefore, so do I take it from your quite lengthy answer that
1 although there was no plan for ethnic cleansing and although there was no
2 detailed plan for committing war crimes, that it nevertheless happened at
3 a large scale.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is inferable that heinous crimes
5 did take place there in that area.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And I did not only talk about crimes but also about
7 the scale. I think you said something about on a large scale but --
8 massive scale, you said.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct. That is also
10 indubitable, it was on a massive scale.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At this moment, I have no further questions.
12 Ms. Loukas, I'm looking at the clock. It is already ten minutes
13 to 2.00. I am already late.
14 Could you give us an indication how much time you would need
15 tomorrow for further cross.
16 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I think what I'm planning to do is
17 to ensure that we have some time left for re-examination and questions
18 from the Judges and I think the assessment that we made on Tuesday was
19 that we would be looking at approximately two hours. In terms of the time
20 left tomorrow, that would leave me two hours and 45 minutes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MS. LOUKAS: And my plan is to come in on time and that's why I
23 chose ...
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, I was informed yesterday when you
25 suggested to start today at 10.30, I checked with the senior legal officer
1 who said is Ms. Loukas aware that at least two hours must remain and then
2 I got the answer that Ms. Loukas would certainly not need more than five
3 hours which was already one hour in addition to -- that's of course if you
4 now want to have two and three-quarters hours additional to what you have
5 had today then you come far beyond five hours.
6 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour, but nevertheless when one looks
7 at what Your Honour has put forward as the 60 per cent guideline, I'm
8 already well under that, Your Honour, even if I were to go to six hours, I
9 would be well under 60 per cent guideline.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We left it to you at what time to start it
11 today. Of course you would have had nine hours if you would have started
12 yesterday, so therefore I got the information yesterday, so therefore I
13 want to avoid at whatever point that we have to hurry with this witness in
14 the very end and -- I'll give -- I'll make some further calculations and
15 I'll let you know where the limits are.
16 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I'm just going on what we discussed on
17 Tuesday in court which was that Ms. Loukas, please ensure that we leave
18 two hours, that is one hour for the Prosecution and one hour for the
19 Judges. So that's two hours. I take two hours of the four hours and 45
20 minutes tomorrow and I say that I will come in --
21 JUDGE ORIE: How much time will you still need tomorrow? You said
22 two hours and ...
23 MS. LOUKAS: I would have thought two and a half hours, Your
25 JUDGE ORIE: But we have four hours a day. If you want to leave
1 two hours, isn't it true that two and a half and two is four and a half
2 and not four.
3 MS. LOUKAS: I see what Your Honour is saying, yes, yes, yes. Now
4 I understand.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We have four effective hours a day, so if you need
6 two and a half more hours tomorrow, and of course when I accepted your
7 proposal to start at 10.30 this morning, I always take a tiny little bit
8 of time for procedural issues that might arise as well, so therefore I
9 thought if you certainly would not need more than five hours, then it
10 would be a good start. But if you now say that you need, apart from the
11 three hours, another two and a half which bring you far over five hours,
12 I would have not agreed with starting at 10.30.
13 MS. LOUKAS: Perhaps we're at cross purposes, Your Honour. I
14 entirely understand your point and the way I propose is that we will
15 certainly leave the two hours as agreed on Tuesday for the Prosecution and
16 for the Judges questions. There's no question of that, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: This would suggest then that you finish by
18 approximately the first break or shortly after that, perhaps shortly after
20 MS. LOUKAS: Well, no, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'll let you know through the senior legal officer
22 how this Chamber considers two hours to be, that's 120 minutes. We will
24 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00 in the
1 same courtroom, and I apologise -- my apologies for the interpreters and
2 the technicians that have we have again stolen 10 minutes of your time.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.57 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Friday, the 18th day of March,
5 2005, at 1.57 p.m.