Page 10821
1 Monday, 21 March 2005 2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
7 number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Before we continue with the examination of the next witness, I'd
10 like to deliver two oral decisions, one about protective measures and I'll
11 start with that one.
12 This is a decision on the Prosecution's motion for protective
13 measures for Witness 60, KRAJ 60. The motion, which is partly
14 confidential, was filed on the 11th of March, 2005. The motion also refers
15 to two other witnesses who are not in issue at this time.
16 The Prosecution requests the Chamber, pursuant to Rules 75 and
17 79 of the Tribunal's Rules of Procedure and Evidence, to order the use of a
18 pseudonym at all times when referring to this witness in the proceedings,
19 as well as image and voice distortion during testimony. The motion also
20 requests private session for those portions of the testimony likely to
21 reveal the witness's identity.
22 Since the witness was scheduled to testify today, the Defence
23 agreed to respond earlier than it was entitled to under the Rules. The
24 Chamber heard the Defence's oral submissions on the 18th of March. These
25 were followed on the same day by an oral response by the Prosecution.
Page 10822
1 In its motion, the Prosecution relies in part on a recent UNHCR
2 report relating to the current security situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina
3 for witnesses or potential witnesses. Bosnia and Herzegovina's lack of
4 ability to ensure the safety of some witnesses is also mentioned. In the
5 confidential annex to the motion, the Prosecution sets forth specific
6 details relating to protective measures sought for Witness 60.
7 The Defence said that the UNHCR report refers to situations long
8 past, sometimes as old as three years. The Defence found the report to be
9 vague or very general in scope, meaning that the Prosecution should have
10 specified those risks that concern the witness in question. The Defence
11 also said that the content of the report, when considered as a whole, is
12 actually much more optimistic in its evaluation of the security situation
13 in Bosnia and Herzegovina than the Prosecution would have us believe.
14 In private session, the Defence addressed issues specific to
15 Witness 60, and argued that the basis set forth by the Prosecution for
16 protection of this witness is too weak to warrant infringement of the right
17 to a public trial.
18 The Prosecution replied by emphasizing the role of the UNHCR in
19 providing security for displaced persons in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and the
20 fact that no other agency is better placed to assess the security concerns
21 for the witness. The Prosecution reiterated its position that the report
22 paints a picture of a relatively serious security situation in Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina. The Prosecution also recalled that Rule 75(A) refers not only
24 to security concerns, but also to the privacy of witnesses.
25 The law on protective measures has been stated by this Chamber
Page 10823
1 in recent decisions, in particular, the decisions of the 20th of September,
2 2004, transcript page 5613 and following, and the 9th of March, 2005,
3 transcript pages 10192 and following. The Chamber is mindful that a fair
4 and public hearing is a right of the accused and is in the interests of
5 justice. Therefore, measures concealing the identity of a witness should
6 be granted only in very limited circumstances, where a witness expresses
7 fear that is supported by objective evidence showing a real likelihood of
8 danger or risk to the witness's security.
9 The Chamber has considered all the submissions of the parties.
10 It finds that, without taking into account the general concerns expressed
11 in the UNHCR report, the fear resulting from the specific circumstances of
12 this witness is based on objective factors, adequately presented by the
13 Prosecution. The requested protective measures, that is, pseudonym, image
14 and voice distortion, as well as limited use of private session, strike a
15 balance between his need for protection and the accused's right to a public
16 trial.
17 The Chamber therefore grants the motion.
18 The second decision to be delivered is a decision on the third
19 batch of 92 bis witnesses.
20 This is a decision on the third batch of 92 bis witnesses.
21 I briefly recall that the Chamber is seized of two Prosecution
22 motions for the admission of 92 bis evidence: The first was filed on the
23 6th of June, 2003, the so-called 7th motion, and the second was filed on
24 the 9th of January, 2004, the so-called 8th motion.
25 The Chamber described the procedural history of the
Page 10824
1 Prosecution's Rule 92 bis applications in its decision of the 7th of April,
2 2004, and I will not repeat it here.
3 I would like to emphasise that the Chamber has considered only
4 the material identified by the Prosecution in the an exes to the 7th and
5 8th motions, as well as in the list of 92 bis witnesses filed on the 24th
6 of March, 2003. The Chamber has applied the legal standards set out in the
7 decision of the 7th of April, 2004.
8 The parties should be assured that the Chamber has considered
9 their submissions in every detail. The Chamber has, as always, checked all
10 the material proposed for admission, even when the Defence has not raised
11 any objection to it.
12 The Prosecution has applied, in a separate motion, for
13 protective measures in relation to most of the witnesses in this third
14 batch of witnesses. Pending a decision on the motion for protective
15 measures, I will provisionally used the "KRAJ" codes of the witnesses when
16 referring to them.
17 I would now ask Madam Registrar to hand out to the parties a
18 list showing the names of the 92 bis witnesses who are not required to
19 attend for cross-examination.
20 I shall first deal with the witnesses in relation to whom there
21 is either no request for cross-examination, or there is a request for
22 cross-examination only if the requested redactions or supplementations are
23 not granted.
24 In relation to the following five witnesses, their evidence is
25 admitted in accordance with the Defence's suggestions concerning redactions
Page 10825
1 and supplementations. The witnesses are: Witness 295, Witness 168,
2 Witness 577, Witness 20, and Witness Barija Trebinjeovic-Mahinic.
3 I have some brief comments to make in relation to the next five
4 witnesses:
5 Witness 109: The Chamber admits this witness's
6 evidence, including the Bosnian statement, which is relevant to the
7 question of consistency.
8 Witness (redacted): The Chamber admits the witness's
9 evidence. The admission of transcripts (redacted) is relevant to
10 the question of consistency. However, the Chamber advises the Prosecution
11 to desist from requesting the admission of testimony from (redacted) in
12 relation to a (redacted) witness, which is essentially cumulative. The Chamber
13 shares the Defence's concerns in this respect.
14 Witness 558: The Chamber admits this witness's evidence subject
15 to redaction only of the words shown in the handout. The rest of the
16 paragraph where these words occur is to be kept in evidence.
17 Witness 248: The Chamber admits this witness's evidence with
18 redactions, as shown in the handout. Not all the redactions requested by
19 the Defence have been granted. Moreover, the witness's Bosnian statement
20 is admitted.
21 Witness 86: The Chamber admits this witness's evidence, subject
22 to the Chamber's deletions, as shown in the handout.
23 The evidence of the above witnesses, as modified in the handout,
24 meets the 92 bis admissibility requirements, and has been admitted. The
25 Chamber does not require the appearance of any of the above witnesses.
Page 10826
1 I now turn to the remaining four witnesses. The Defence has
2 submitted that their evidence is not fit for admission without cross-
3 examination.
4 The Chamber agrees with the Defence in relation to only one of
5 these four witnesses, namely Witness 305. The name and associated material
6 of this witness is not shown in the handout. His cross-examination is
7 permitted because the statement contains passages on the distribution of
8 weapons. The cross-examination should therefore focus on that subject.
9 However, ancillary questioning will be permitted. The documents relating
10 to this witness shall be admitted into evidence - subject to any further
11 objections - at the time he is heard in cross-examination.
12 As for the remaining three witnesses, the Chamber finds that the
13 Defence has failed to establish a sufficient basis to justify cross-
14 examination, or otherwise exclusion, of their evidence.
15 The first witness, whose name is Fehim Mesetovic, is deceased.
16 The Chamber has decided to admit his evidence subject to certain
17 redactions. These are shown in the handout.
18 The second witness is Witness 122. The Defence has said that if
19 the Chamber is not minded to call this witness for cross-examination, a
20 certain redaction should be made. The Chamber grants the requested
21 redaction and further orders an additional redaction as shown in the
22 handout.
23 The last witness is Witness 238. The Defence has said, again,
24 that if the Chamber is not minded to call this witness for cross-
25 examination, certain redactions and supplementations to his evidence should
Page 10827
1 be made. The Chamber grants these amendments and further orders an
2 additional redaction, as shown in the handout.
3 The Chamber requests the Prosecution to submit the material
4 admitted through this decision, with the appropriate redactions and
5 supplementations, to Madam Registrar. In due course, Madam Registrar will
6 assign exhibit numbers to those items and inform the parties and the
7 Chamber. I kindly ask Madam Registrar to file the handout under seal.
8 This concludes the Chamber's decision on the third batch of 92
9 bis witnesses.
10 I add to this decision that the previous oral decision on two
11 lots of 92 bis witnesses, which were filed on the 10th of December, 2004,
12 the handout attached to that decision still needs to be filed, where
13 necessary, under seal. That has not been done and therefore there could be
14 confusion as to what exactly is in evidence.
15 This concludes the delivery of the two decisions.
16 Mr. Gaynor, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
17 MR. GAYNOR: We are ready to call the next witness, Your Honour.
18 Before the witness comes in, I might want to enlighten Your
19 Honours as to which parts of his testimony should be held in private
20 session and which parts should be held in public session.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would you -- can you tell us in such a way
22 that we can do it in open court, because we are still in open session at
23 this moment. If not --
24 MR. GAYNOR: I think, Your Honour, it would be best to do it in
25 private session.
Page 10828
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will turn in to private session.
2 [Private session]
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
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Page 10829
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11 Pages 10829-10832 redacted. Private session.
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Page 10833
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 [Open session]
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness. Can you hear me in a
9 language you understand?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 60, because that's how we will call you,
12 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
13 declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
14 the truth. The text is now being handed out to you by Madam Usher. I'd
15 like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak
17 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: KRAJ 60
19 [The witness answered through the interpreter]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Witness 60.
21 Witness 60, outside this courtroom, no one is able to see your
22 face. Your voice, through this additional microphone, is also distorted,
23 and we'll call you by the name Witness 60.
24 It may happen that if there's anything to be discussed which
25 might identify your identity, the parties will ask to go into private
Page 10834
1 session. That means that even the content of your testimony in private
2 session is not available to the outside world.
3 I'd like to remind the parties to switch their microphones off
4 once the witness is speaking.
5 Mr. Gaynor, you may proceed.
6 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Examined by Mr. Gaynor:
8 Q. Good afternoon, Witness. The first document that will be shown
9 to you contains your name and your date of birth. I'd request the
10 registrar to show the pseudonym sheet to the witness.
11 Mr. 60, if you could simply confirm with a yes or no that the
12 name and the date of birth on that sheet refer to you and are correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Sir, next I would like to show you two statements, one statement
15 which you gave to Bosnian authorities in June 1992 and a second statement
16 which you gave to investigators of this Tribunal in October 1998. Those
17 statements will be placed in front of you in a moment.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym sheet will be marked as
20 Prosecution Exhibit P549, under seal.
21 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, we'd request that the two statements
22 also be -- well, we're submitting them under seal. We request that they be
23 admitted under seal.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, they'll have the numbers ...
25 THE REGISTRAR: The witness statement dated 4 and 5 October 1998
Page 10835
1 will be Prosecution Exhibit P550, under seal.
2 The record dated 10 June 1992 will be Prosecution Exhibit P551,
3 under seal.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.
6 MR. GAYNOR:
7 Q. Sir, have you had an opportunity yesterday and today to carefully
8 review both of those statements?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Are those statements an accurate record of the events described
11 in them?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you wish to make any corrections or clarifications of any kind
14 at this stage?
15 A. No. No, I don't.
16 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I propose now to read into the record
17 a short summary of the evidence of this witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Gaynor.
19 MR. GAYNOR: This witness is from Ilijas municipality.
20 Following the announcement of the SAO Romanija, the witness heard that
21 Muslim police officers had been sacked. Tensions rose. Serbs began to
22 occupy elevated positions near the witness's village in April and May 1992.
23 A JNA convoy passed through the village around this time. After the convoy
24 left, the local Serbs were better armed and would show off their automatic
25 weapons and grenade launchers.
Page 10836
1 In early June 1992, the witness's village was attacked. The
2 witness concluded that the Serbs were firing artillery and multiple rocket
3 launchers from the elevated positions where they had earlier positioned
4 weapons. Serb men in camouflage uniforms entered the witness's village and
5 fired weapons at the houses. A stable was hit by an incendiary shell.
6 Some of the Serb forces referred to the Muslims in racially
7 abusive terms. They robbed and killed several of the civilians, used
8 civilians -- and used civilians as human shields. While several of the
9 civilians were armed with pistols or rudimentary rifles, none of them
10 offered resistance.
11 Your Honours, that ends the summary. In a moment, I wish to set
12 out a short background about who this witness is, and for that reason I
13 request that we go into private session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could we go into private session.
15 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 10837
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2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, from the late response, you will
12 understand that translation takes a bit more time than the time it takes
13 for you to speak.
14 MR. GAYNOR: I'll be careful to slow down my delivery, Your
15 Honour.
16 Your Honour, for the benefit of Your Honours, I'd just like to
17 orient you very quickly with the book of maps which you have, and I'd like
18 you to -- to take you first to page 25. This book of maps -- sorry, Your
19 Honours, we can return to public session at this stage.
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE ORIE: We'll return into open session. And we are now.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.
23 MR. GAYNOR: This is Exhibit P527, and I'd like to put on the
24 ELMO or -- it's not even necessary to put it on the ELMO. If Your Honours
25 look at page 25, this is a map of the Sarajevo area. The municipality
Page 10838
1 towards the north of this map is Ilijas municipality.
2 Now, if Your Honours turn to page 29, you see a map of Ilijas
3 municipality. Now, Your Honours, the witness's village is located -- is
4 not named on this map. For that reason, we've prepared an exhibit, which I
5 intend to tender now, which establishes the location of the witness's
6 village and establishes the location of several other villages which are
7 referred to in his testimony.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be ...
9 THE REGISTRAR: This map will be Prosecution Exhibit P552.
10 MR. GAYNOR: Just to orient Your Honours on the map which you
11 have in front of you, Ilijas, the witness's village, is in the extreme west
12 of the municipality and is at the north part of the area which protrudes to
13 the north of the extreme west. It will become clearer when Your Honours
14 receive the next map.
15 I'd request that a copy of the map be given to the witness so
16 that he's able to mark, and refer the Judges to certain towns on it.
17 Q. Sir, to assist the Judges, I would be grateful if you could point
18 to a number of towns which you mention in your statements. First of all,
19 could you point to the village of Ljesevo?
20 A. [Indicates].
21 Q. And could you point to Breza?
22 A. [Indicates].
23 Q. Could you point now to Vrbovik?
24 A. [Indicates].
25 Q. You also mention Cekrcici. Could you also point to that, please.
Page 10839
1 A. [Indicates].
2 Q. You mention in your statements Podlugovi?
3 A. [Indicates].
4 Q. And finally Ilijas town itself.
5 A. [Indicates].
6 Q. Thank you, sir. MR. GAYNOR: I'd now request that the
7 witness be shown the next exhibit, and that that exhibit be given an exhibit
8 number -- sorry, that exhibit has an exhibit number and that is P299. Your
9 Honours saw this before.
10 Q. Now, sir, on that sheet, you see the village or the area
11 described as Ljesevo as number 5, with 747 Muslims and 509 Serbs in the
12 1991 census. Could you confirm that that is the village that you are from?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, could you tell Their Honours whether the Serb and Muslim
15 populations of Ljesevo lived in -- were intermingled in the Ljesevo area,
16 or was there primarily a Serb part and a Muslim part? Could you describe
17 for Their Honours briefly how people lived.
18 A. The Muslims lived in one part of the village that was
19 predominantly populated by the Muslims, and there were some 10 Croat houses
20 there as well, in that Muslim part of the village.
21 The Serb part of the village was on the other end. It was part
22 of the village but the houses were spread out at the other end of the
23 village.
24 Below the railway track, there were some Muslim and Serb houses
25 scattered together.
Page 10840
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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
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Page 10841
1 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, as we've discussed, your evidence is in two
2 written statements which Their Honours have before them and which Their
3 Honours have had an opportunity to read. I just want to clarify certain
4 parts of what is contained in those statements.
5 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, at this stage, I request that we go
6 into private session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll go into private session.
8 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
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21 (redacted)
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Page 10842
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11 Pages 10842-10852 redacted. Private session.
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Page 10853
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 The first question is this: Were those the only Muslim properties which
9 were damaged during the attack on Ljesevo?
10 A. No. In another part of the village, you could see smoke and you
11 could see that there were houses on fire. Near my house, near where I
12 lived and near that shelter, there was a house or rather a barn that had
13 been hit and also another house and another barn near the centre. The
14 shelling was from the centre itself, where I lived, and a bit further away.
15 Lug is the name of the place from which shooting could be heard.
16 Q. Now, where you saw that other houses had been hit, was that in
17 the Serb part of Ljesevo or was that the Muslim part of Ljesevo?
18 A. The Muslim part.
19 Q. Did you see any damage to any houses in the Serb part?
20 A. You can't see from there. I've already said that it was mostly
21 Muslims who were living there. You cannot see that far away. You cannot
22 see whether the houses at the other side had been hit or whether they had
23 been damaged.
24 Q. Focussing on the houses in the Muslim part where you were, could
25 you describe whether there were any military forces taking refuge in those
Page 10854
1 houses or in that barn, or whether there was anybody firing or any military
2 presence whatsoever in those houses or in that barn?
3 A. Which soldiers?
4 Q. I'm talking about the Muslim houses which were destroyed. Could
5 you explain --
6 MR. STEWART: The witness's answer "Which soldiers" rather
7 emphasises the leading nature of the question. Perhaps, Your Honour, the
8 appropriate matter is either to rephrase it or to leave it there.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, the witness asked a further
10 specification of your question, but if you could resolve it in such a way
11 that you don't give the answer to the witness.
12 MR. GAYNOR:
13 Q. Sir --
14 A. I have not really understood the question properly. I think
15 there must have been some kind of mistake. Could you please repeat your
16 question.
17 Q. I will approach the issue in a different way.
18 Was there a Muslim military presence in Ljesevo?
19 A. No.
20 Q. In your statement, you have described that you had a homemade
21 rifle and you've described that the Serb soldiers laughed at your homemade
22 rifle. My question is this: Why didn't you have a better rifle? You
23 knew, from your expertise, that machine-guns are better than homemade
24 rifles. Why didn't you get yourself a machine-gun?
25 A. Perhaps I can give an extensive answer to this question. The
Page 10855
1 Territorial Defence that got guns from the Ilijas municipality, I mean I'm
2 not aware of the exact records because I was not in the Crisis Staff, and
3 they had their own people. Before everything -- before all of this
4 happened, there was this split, or rather, the Crisis Staff stopped working
5 and this was this Crisis Staff that was supposed to put up some kind of
6 resistance.
7 So the Territorial Defence had people who were on their lists and
8 who were supposed to be on the guard duty during the night so that these
9 same persons who have already done this would not come again. So there was
10 an organisation even before that.
11 After the rifles were taken away, I mean it was the people from
12 Ilijas who took them away, or rather, the army, along with the order-
13 issuing authorities, there was a lack of confidence in the organisation
14 itself that existed. And during the night, people went to the neighbouring
15 municipality of Breza. During the day, they would come to see what was
16 happening at their houses and their farms ...
17 Q. Sir, if I could interrupt you there, I want to focus on some of
18 the details in the answer that you've given.
19 First I'd like to ask you very specifically, you said, "After the
20 rifles were taken away." The first question is when, to the best of your
21 recollection, were the rifles taken away?
22 A. There was an incident, I think that that also happened in May,
23 when an APC came into the village, an APC with soldiers, Serb soldiers, who
24 already had a front line with the municipality of Breza.
25 Our village belonged to the Serb part and their front line was
Page 10856
1 there. They had been waging war for quite some time before they attacked
2 the Muslim part of the village.
3 At one moment when they were passing by, and they were passing in
4 these carriers several times, they were going to Odzak, to the front line
5 where they were actually fighting, there was an incident, or rather, that's
6 what they called it. They said that some of our people started shooting,
7 people who were at a checkpoint, or rather, this was a road that was
8 leading to the Muslim part of the village. They entered the village and
9 they took a man prisoner. They kept him as a hostage and they told him to
10 call out to other people so they would come out too.
11 A neighbour came out and communicated with them, and ultimately
12 agreement was reached. They met up somewhere, I don't know exactly where;
13 I was on the other side. They asked us to return the Territorial Defence
14 weapons and part of the weapons because they thought that we had too many
15 weapons.
16 After that, there was a lack of confidence. People started
17 moving out, and after that, there was no guard duty at all. That is why it
18 is my assertion that there was no resistance on the part of the Muslim
19 people, or rather, the Muslims who happened to be there on that day in
20 Ljesevo.
21 Q. Now, sir, going back to an earlier answer that you gave, you
22 referred to rifles being taken away and people from the municipality came
23 to take them away. The first question - I would be very grateful if you
24 could keep your answers focused - is when you say "People from the
25 municipality," what ethnicity were those people?
Page 10857
1 A. They were ethnic Serbs. I already said that these were soldiers
2 who were patrolling the area every day. They were going to and fro on
3 APCs, and sometimes they'd even start shooting from the APC because there
4 were Muslim houses on the way. As they went down that road, they would
5 shoot into the area just for the sake of provocation. So this was a force
6 that already was fighting at the front line. They also negotiated with
7 other municipalities, and they are the people who came to Ljesevo. That's
8 what I heard.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 60, may I also ask you to very much focus
10 your answer on this specific question. The question just put to you was
11 just about the ethnicity, and it might be that Mr. Gaynor is interested to
12 know -- to hear about other details than you are telling us. Therefore,
13 please answer the question first, and if there's any additional information
14 we would need, Mr. Gaynor will certainly ask you for it.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor.
16 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Now, in your earlier answer, you said "People from the
18 municipality," and you then clarified that they were Serbs. Now, when you
19 say "From the municipality," what do you mean by "the municipality,"
20 exactly?
21 A. The municipality had its President and its Crisis Staff, its Serb
22 Crisis Staff, that was operating then when everything had started. I've
23 already said that they were negotiating, that this was on the news, on the
24 radio, and so on.
25 Q. Why did the Muslims agree to give their rifles to the Serb
Page 10858
1 forces?
2 A. Why? Because they asked for it and they came in on the APC.
3 They were threatening people, and people were afraid. And in that fear,
4 they thought that that would be better than something else.
5 Q. Did they say who would protect you in case you were attacked?
6 A. Yes. I found out from one of our people who worked in the Ilijas
7 municipality that Ratko Adzic himself, the president of the municipality,
8 said to him, "If you are afraid, we will come to protect you," at the
9 surrounding hills that were a border with the Breza municipality. That's
10 what he said to this man, and I heard about it from him personally. And
11 this man said, "You don't have to come. We will take care of ourselves."
12 And he smiled.
13 Q. Now, sir, was when this assurance given, to the best of your
14 recollection?
15 A. It was before all this started happening, because during the
16 night, people were afraid. Nobody slept because every night, they were
17 expecting something to happen. Especially later when there was no guard
18 duty, we would simply sit together in a few houses and wait for them to
19 come and get us.
20 We were there and we were always talking about this and wondering
21 what to do, what the best thing to do would be once they came and they took
22 away our weapons, and what next? We were trying to work out a plan whether
23 we should stay there or whether we should leave.
24 Q. Now, to go back to your answer, you said that this assurance that
25 you would be protected was given "before all this started happening."
Page 10859
1 Could you put a month on it, to the best of your ability, a month and a
2 year, please?
3 A. This was already at the time when contacts were still being held.
4 For instance, our neighbour was in touch with the people who were
5 negotiating for the cease-fire with the municipalities of Breza, Visoko,
6 and so on. He said that Ratko Adzic had told him this at one point. It
7 might also have happened in the month of May.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We now come to the month, which was the actual
9 question. Perhaps you could start with -- if you are specifically asked
10 about a month, and if any further clarification is needed, Mr. Gaynor will
11 ask you for it.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Gaynor. I'm looking at the clock. I also
13 see that we are close to a break.
14 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I'm happy to break now, if you wish.
15 I'm happy to continue for several more minutes. I'm entirely ...
16 JUDGE ORIE: It depends a bit on whether you have dealt with this
17 subject. If not, we could continue for another three to five minutes and
18 then have a break, so we'll leave it up to you.
19 MR. GAYNOR: In that case I'll continue for another few minutes.
20 Q. Sir, in your statement - this is paragraph 26 of the ICTY
21 statement, page 5 in the English; there's no need for you to refer to it,
22 sir - you say that the Serb -- you're describing guard posts and barricades
23 which were established in the Serb part of Ljesevo, and you said that the
24 posts were manned by armed men. "They set up strong fortifications and
25 were well organised."
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Page 10861
1 Now, on the basis of your military experience in the JNA with
2 weaponry, can you describe for Their Honours what kind of weapons the Serb
3 barricades in Ljesevo had.
4 A. At the barricade in Ljesevo, which bordered with the municipality
5 of Visoko, there were armed men with automatic weapons, with semi-automatic
6 rifles and hand-held rocket launchers that they carried on their backs.
7 They also had pillbox there where they kept some other armaments.
8 I wasn't able to see for myself what they had there, but they must have
9 kept those arms there just in case something happened, as re-enforcement.
10 Therefore, they had automatic and semi-automatic weapons, zoljas or hand-
11 held rocket launchers. In a word, they were very well equipped.
12 Q. Do you know where these local Serbs in Ljesevo were able to get
13 hold of, for example, hand-held rocket launchers? Do you have any specific
14 information on that subject?
15 A. I have already stated that I, myself, saw the convoys from the
16 Zenica barracks leaving in the direction of Sarajevo. I saw this from a
17 nearby village together with my neighbours, and I saw the trucks stopping
18 by in the area of the municipality of Ilijas. There was an intersection
19 there. There were trucks trailing these weapons as they were on their way
20 into the municipality of Ilijas.
21 Q. And my final question before the break concerns the Serbs. You
22 said in your statement, paragraph 28 of the English, on page 5 of the
23 English, you said that Serbs established positions in elevated areas, and
24 they established position on the hill between Ljesevo and Breza, that all
25 of this happened in April and May 1992.
Page 10862
1 Now, later you came to the conclusion that it was from those
2 positions that the Serbs were firing artillery and multiple rocket
3 launchers. What was it that brought you to the conclusion that they were
4 firing from that position?
5 A. I saw it with my own eyes. I saw this because it's some 700 to
6 800 metres, as the crow flies. You can see the forest and then you see the
7 plume of smoke rising as some four or five rockets are fired. So you're
8 not present there to be able to know what's going on, but people know what
9 a rocket launcher is. You know how many rockets it can fire and what
10 consequences derive. So I was near my home, and it was also from the
11 vantage point of Ljubnici that I observed, as they were targeting Visoko on
12 several occasions.
13 Q. Now, you said that these positions --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, you just said that this was your final
15 question before the break. You took the minutes I granted you, and I have
16 another question: Should we remain in private session? We seem to be
17 moving or dealing with matters of a general nature.
18 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, I see your point, Your Honour. I'll consider
19 the position carefully during the break, and I'll certainly try to let Your
20 Honours know if it's necessary to stay in private session at the end of the
21 break.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Then, Witness 60, we'll have a break for 25 minutes. We'll
24 adjourn.
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, would Mr. Gaynor please also consider
Page 10863
1 whether the bits that we've just heard should remain in private session,
2 because that seems to go together as part of the same exercise.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's perhaps it's better done on basis of the
4 transcript and perhaps not --
5 MR. STEWART: Yes, it could be that's more convenient.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please review the transcript to see
7 whether there are any parts which could be public rather than private.
8 MR. GAYNOR: Does Your Honour -- I referred to the --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Questions like, What kind of weapons were used, and
10 how the witness says that he observed it from quite a distance, these seem
11 to be not questions that are of any identifying nature.
12 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, absolutely, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: If you would please then review that and we'll
14 continue that at quarter past 4.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 3.53 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, I do understand that you want to stay
18 for a while in private session?
19 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
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Page 10867
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9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 [Open session]
13 MR. GAYNOR: I request that the witness be shown the next three
14 documents. And while they are being distributed, I want to direct Your
15 Honours to the salient points of these documents. The first two -- I'll
16 wait until Your Honours have them in front of you.
17 Just briefly directing Your Honours to the salient point of these
18 documents, the first is headed -- an exhibit number, please.
19 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number is Prosecution Exhibit P554.
20 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, the first document is headed "SDS
21 Crisis Staff, Ilijas". It states that it is a list of TO members who have
22 been paid by, and the word is illegible, a total of 300.000 dinars. And
23 it's dated 16 May 1992. The person who appears at number one is Branko
24 Gavric.
25 The second document is also headed "SDS Crisis Staff, Ilijas".
Page 10868
1 It's a list of TO members who have been paid, according to the decision of
2 the staff. The first person named is Samardzija. The total is 260.000.
3 The date is 16 May 1992.
4 The third document is headed "List of the 3rd Platoon Members
5 who Received 10.000 Dinars". It is dated in Rajlovac, 16 May 1992, and a
6 signature appears in the bottom right-hand corner. Its total is 290.000
7 dinars.
8 Q. Now, witness, I'd like to direct you not to the first but to the
9 second of those three documents.
10 MR. GAYNOR: At this stage, I would request that we go briefly
11 into private session.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
13 [Private session]
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 10869
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 [Open session]
6 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, at this stage, I would like to refer
7 you to a document that is related to the three documents which you have in
8 front of you. I would request that you keep those three documents in front
9 of you.
10 The next document was introduced quite recently through Witness
11 Dorothea Hansen. It is P529, tab 357. Your Honours will be receiving a
12 copy of that in a second.
13 Your Honours, I want to direct your attention briefly to the
14 salient points of this document. I know you've seen it already. I simply
15 want to refresh your knowledge of it. It's headed "Serbian Republic of BH,
16 Serbian Municipality of Ilijas." It's an overview of the revenues and
17 costs with the breakdown by purposes for the period of 11 May 1992 to 30
18 June 1992. Under "Income", there's a record of an income of 3 million
19 dinars on the basis of the payment order number 18 for the Crisis Staff of
20 the Serbian Republic of BH government. There's also a record of 10 million
21 dinars as income on the basis of the payment order number 60 received from
22 the government for the Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Ilijas
23 reimbursement.
24 Your Honours will see that the document is signed, and the
25 signature that appears at page 5 of the English translation is that of
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Page 10871
1 Ratko Adzic, the president of the Serbian municipality of <
2 also, to the left of that, a signature of Trivko Radic, and at the bottom 3 of the page, there is again the signature of Trivko Radic. 4 I'd like to draw Your Honours very briefly to page 4 or 5 of the 5 English translation, the very last entry. There is what appears to be a 6 record of a payment to the Ljesevo TO, 1.012 dinars. 7 Now I would like to turn very briefly into private session. 8 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session. 9 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber] 10 (redacted) 11 (redacted) 12 (redacted) 13 (redacted) 14 (redacted) 15 (redacted) 16 (redacted) 17 (redacted) 18 (redacted) 19 (redacted) 20 (redacted) 21 (redacted) 22 (redacted) 23 (redacted) 24 (redacted) 25 (redacted) Page 10872 1 (redacted) 2 (redacted) 3 (redacted) 4 (redacted) 5 (redacted) 6 (redacted) 7 (redacted) 8 (redacted) 9 (redacted) 10 (redacted) 11 (redacted) 12 (redacted) 13 (redacted) 14 (redacted) 15 (redacted) 16 (redacted) 17 (redacted) 18 (redacted) 19 (redacted) 20 (redacted) 21 (redacted) What I would like to know is what was the 22 relationship between the people in the village where you lived -- what was 23 the atmosphere between the various communities? 24 You are 38 years old today, I believe. I imagine that you've 25 spent your childhood and then your teenage years and your adulthood as a Page 10873 1 young adult in that same village. You've done your military -- compulsory 2 military service so you were in touch with all the other young people of 3 your age. What was the relationship between all these men, whether they 4 were Muslim, Serb or Croats before these events? 5 I would like to be very clear: You stated not long ago that the 6 village was a Muslim village, and that this Muslim village was on a 7 geographical -- limited geographical spot. You said that they were not too 8 far from where your neighbours, the Serbs, lived. What was daily life 9 like? Were people talking together? Were children playing together? Did 10 young people play football together? Or were there always interethnic 11 tensions? 12 Would you be able to answer those questions, please? 13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. 14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the microphones please be switched off. 15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now you've mentioned that this was 16 a Muslim village. There was a certain percentage of Muslims there, of 17 Croats, and of Serbs, so it wasn't a Muslim village, it was a mixed 18 village. The population was spread out in such a way that the ethnicities 19 lived in predominantly one-ethnicity-populated areas. You were talking 20 about the period before the war. The relations between people before the 21 war were good or even to say excellent even several years before the war. 22 The infrastructure was being built, meetings were being held, phone 23 connections were being introduced, the roads were being paved, gas was 24 fitted into the area, and this was done jointly by Serbs, Muslims, and 25 Croats. Page 10874 1 I grew up in the area. I frequented four years of elementary 2 school in Ljesevo. I had friends there. I was part of the local youth 3 organisation that launched several actions of cleaning the environment, 4 organising football matches. There were one or two cafes where we went out 5 together. 6 Whenever some sort of assistance had to be raised for the 7 municipality, all the youths living in the area would meet and get 8 organised. All the events marking my childhood, adolescence, up until the 9 beginning of the war, showed that the things were functions well. 10 As the elections were held, and with the onset of the war in 11 Croatia that started spilling over to Bosnia, the relations began cooling 12 down to the extent that people were getting isolated, that Serbs would sit 13 together in one corner of the cafe and would not communicate as much with 14 us Muslims or Croats. There were some 10 Croat homes, and the youths 15 belonging to these families were more closely related to the Muslims, so 16 they were the ones who stood guard together with us when we were on guard 17 duty at a later stage. 18 With the relations becoming troubled, the Serbs would no longer 19 meet with the Muslims in this one local cafe that was held by a Serb owner. 20 At night, people from other villages would come in who were in touch with 21 our Serb neighbours and who frequented these cafes. 22 With the mounting of the tensions, and after the declaration of 23 the SAO Romanija, we were aware of the fact that the municipality of Ilijas 24 fell under this SAO Romanija. They launched a campaign by putting up 25 posters trying to show us that we were part of this unit now. Page 10875 1 As Ljesevo is the most outlying settlement in the municipality of 2 Ilijas bordering with the municipality of Visoko, this was the last 3 settlement alongside with the village of Cekrcici that was still 4 categorised under the SAO Romanija. The villagers of Cekrcici would visit 5 this cafe that was located in our village. As there were more and more 6 provocations, we stopped going out in the evenings, frequenting these 7 villages -- these cafes, because the situation wasn't favourable for us. 8 Since the villagers of Cekrcici, which fell under the municipality of 9 Visoko which was a predominantly Serb village, the residents that have 10 village would come into our settlement carrying weapons. 11 I was a victim of one incident when, with the heightening of 12 tensions, I was beaten up (redacted) 13 (redacted) 14 (redacted) 15 (redacted) 16 (redacted) 17 (redacted) 18 (redacted) 19 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness. But I would 20 like to ask you one more question. Just before those events, were there 21 people from the village who tried to stop all of that, the tensions, from 22 both sides, from the Serbian side and the Muslim side? Since people knew 23 each other, were there some people who tried to help the situation, to 24 diminish the tensions? 25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when the tension started and Page 10876 1 when we became aware of everything that was going on, for example, when the 2 front line was already established towards the municipality of Breza and 3 the municipality of Visoko, in that period, we simply belonged to the 4 municipality of Ilijas. The Serbs who lived in Ljesevo certainly had 5 contacts and relations with other Serbs in the municipality of Ilijas. 6 Those who belonged to the SAO Romanija, they did meet up with them and they 7 received instructions through these persons. Kojo Glisic, who was 8 president of the SDS for Ljesevo, also had contact with these persons and 9 he had meetings in Ilijas. He went to these meetings. I know about that. 10 Kojo Glisic, together with other people who were on this Crisis 11 Staff of theirs in Ljesevo, held meetings with the Muslim Crisis Staff 12 which did exist at that time. We were given promises, as far as I know, 13 that nothing would happen, that nothing should happen, although there was 14 more and more fighting on the front line between Breza and Visoko. 15 Meetings were held, promises were made, and for that reason, the 16 people who stayed in Ljesevo on that day experienced what they experienced. 17 Those who did not believe in all of that had left earlier. 18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir. 19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, before we proceed, you just indicated 20 that the document you presented was P529, tab 357. That's not what I find. 21 It looks very much the same but it's not the same document. I take it that 22 it's another version of that same document but not exactly the same. 23 Apart from the difference in the ERN numbers, I'd really like 24 you to -- if you present a document as exactly the same, that it is that 25 same document. Page 10877 1 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly, Your Honour. I apologise for the 2 oversight. If Your Honour would prefer, these are simply courtesy copies 3 of that exhibit so we can withdraw -- 4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, they are not copies. If you look at the 5 signatures, you will see that the two documents are signed not exactly in 6 the same way. One of the documents has some corrections in handwriting, 7 which does not appear on the other. I mean, it's not dramatic for your 8 questions because I don't think that anything changes, but I would like 9 really to draw your attention to the fact that if you present a document as 10 the same, that it should be the same and nothing else. 11 Then I further would like to -- where you mentioned 1.012 12 dinars, I take it that you wanted to refer to 1.012.000 on item 63 on the 13 last page. 14 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct, Your Honour. 15 JUDGE ORIE: That was a small mistake. And then finally, I'm 16 not a native English speaker, but in the translation, what I would expect 17 to be "dinars" appears as "dinners", consequently, on the last page. 18 Unless there's a specific use of this term, then -- but I thought it was 19 something different. 20 Please proceed. 21 MR. GAYNOR: We can return to open session. 22 MR. STEWART: As we're returning to open session, perhaps we've 23 just done that -- 24 JUDGE ORIE: No, we are still in private session. 25 MR. STEWART: I was going to -- my comment was appropriate for Page 10878 1 open session, Your Honour. 2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn in to open session, unless you would 3 have any -- Mr. Gaynor, would you have any further questions in private 4 session or ... 5 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, I've no further questions in private 6 session for this witness. 7 JUDGE ORIE: Then we turn in to open session, and Mr. Stewart, 8 please proceed. 9 [Open session] 10 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, I was only going to say that it 11 does -- sorry, it seems we are in open session now. 12 Your Honour, I was just going to say that the way the evidence 13 has progressed, it seems to indicate that, of course, as everybody's doing 14 their best to see when we should be in open session, when we should be in 15 private session, but it looks as if, perhaps, the whole transcript ought to 16 be revisited overnight. I see Mr. Harmon nodding to -- 17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor has already invited and has told us, and 18 I take it that that's not just valid for the part before the break but the 19 whole of it. 20 MR. GAYNOR: Absolutely, Your Honour. 21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. 22 MR. GAYNOR: Simply while we're on the subject of this exhibit, 23 I just wanted to direct Your Honours' attention, I don't want to belabour 24 the point, but under "Outcomes", items 2, 3 and 4, which are a payment to 25 Gavric of 300.000, a payment to Samardzija of 260.000, and a payment to
Page 10879
1 Draskic of 290.000, we invite Your Honours to compare those three entries
2 with the previous exhibit.
3 JUDGE ORIE: We've done that already. Please proceed, Mr.
4 Gaynor.
5 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, the next point, and I think this is
6 the best time to deal with it, is to have a look at the last page in the
7 B/C/S of that exhibit, the exhibit Your Honour has just referred me to, and
8 to the signatures of Radic, appearing in the middle of the page and at the
9 bottom of the page. Again, I simply want to briefly direct Your Honours'
10 attention to the signatures which appear at the bottom of --
11 JUDGE ORIE: We've compared them as well.
12 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, thank you for that. In that case, I
13 have no further questions.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 MR. GAYNOR: Sorry, Your Honour, I just want to make one final
16 point. I apologise for saying I don't have any further questions. I don't
17 have any further questions, but I do want to draw Your Honours' attention
18 simply to some pages of the Bosnian Serb Assembly session of the 12th of
19 May, 1992. This is already an exhibit in this case. It's Exhibit P529, tab
20 465.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Same document, Mr. Gaynor. There's no doubt in my
22 mind but ...
23 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Your Honour. And I would invite Your Honours
24 to have a look at the speech of Trivko Radic. He speaks twice during that
25 Assembly session, to compare the date of that speech, the content of that
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Page 10881
1 speech, with the exhibits that you've received today.
2 And I now confirm I have no further questions. Thank you, Your
3 Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.
5 Mr. Stewart, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
6 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. If I might just get the lectern
7 from behind me. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 60, you will now be examined by Mr.
9 Stewart, who is counsel for the defence of Mr. Krajisnik.
10 MR. STEWART: Thank you.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart:
12 Q. Witness, I'm looking at paragraph 23 of your main ICTY statement.
13 It's a short point so you don't particularly need to take the document.
14 You say: "To my knowledge, Muslim men of military age in Ilijas were not
15 affected by mobilisation orders when the war in Croatia started."
16 Now, what I want to put to you is that it's not strictly true to
17 say they were not affected. The position was that, generally speaking,
18 they didn't go. Do you see the distinction, or would you like me to
19 present it to you more clearly?
20 A. What distinction?
21 Q. All right, I will. You say they were not affected by
22 mobilisation orders, which seems to suggest that those orders didn't apply
23 to them. What I'm putting to you is those mobilisation orders certainly
24 did apply to them but they didn't want to go and refused to go.
25 A. Is there a date that you are referring to in terms of the war in
Page 10882
1 Croatia? What do you have in mind?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 60, I'll try to explain to you --
3 MR. STEWART: It seems that I'm having trouble with the
4 microphone. It seems to be more appropriate if Ms. Philpott would tell me
5 what I should do.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It seems you should turn off --
7 MR. STEWART: I was reminded the first time and I see the --
8 JUDGE ORIE: I see the light, as a matter of fact, I think that
9 at the moment that Ms. Philpott asked you that the microphone was on. But
10 let's not spend -- I mean I think it's clear now the -- yes, whenever the
11 witness is about to speak, you should turn your microphone off.
12 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I understood that I was --
13 perhaps there was a split second timing discrepancy.
14 I see the point and I will do my best.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 Mr. Stewart is asking you whether what you said, that the
17 Muslims were not affected by mobilisation, that was when some Serbs, as you
18 said, went voluntarily that Croatia, that that would not be true because
19 they were under a mobilisation order but they did not go. That's what he
20 puts to you, that what -- it is rather as he tells you than what we read in
21 your statement.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not hear of a single Serb
24 who lived in Ljesevo who had been mobilised and sent to the front in
25 Croatia. I, myself, was not called up, so I confirm what I said, that I am
Page 10883
1 not aware of anyone having been mobilised for the war.
2 What I do know is that volunteers went, people who wanted to go.
3 People talked about it while we still had contact, that people who wanted
4 to do so for money did go, or people who were attached to the party that
5 did that, they went to this front in Croatia.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
7 MR. STEWART:
8 Q. So to get it clear, you're saying that neither Serbs nor Muslims
9 were affected by mobilisation orders, but that perhaps some Serbs did go;
10 is that a fair summary?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. The interpreters cannot
12 hear the witness if any microphone is on.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer, Witness.
14 A. Volunteers, I said volunteers went.
15 MR. STEWART:
16 Q. So is the summary I just put to you accurate, that neither Serbs
17 nor Muslims were affected by mobilisation orders, that some Serbs, you
18 described as volunteers, did go?
19 A. I heard that some Serbs went to the war in Croatia for money and
20 as volunteers for the interests of the streams they belonged to or a
21 political party. These were people who later proved to be criminals in
22 Ljesevo itself.
23 Q. All right. Let's move forward to June 1992. In the area where
24 you lived, were there attacks by Muslim forces upon Serbs in early June
25 1992?
Page 10884
1 JUDGE ORIE: Microphone, please, Mr. Stewart.
2 MR. STEWART: Sorry.
3 A. What do you mean by the end, or rather, when you say "in the
4 area," are you referring to Breza as well? I mean when you say "area",
5 what do you mean exactly?
6 Q. All right. Within 20 kilometres of where you lived, were there
7 any attacks by Muslim forces upon Serbs in early June 1992?
8 A. I'll try to make things clearer. When the SAO Romanija was
9 established, the territory of SAO Romanija was brought together, the
10 territories that border the municipalities of Visoko and Breza - I don't
11 know the exact dates, but from the month of March, further on, that
12 includes June - when what happened, happened in Ljesevo itself, the warring
13 parties were there, that is to say, the municipalities of Ilijas and Visoko
14 and Ilijas and Breza.
15 There were front lines there throughout the war, where SAO
16 Romanija was at the time, so from the very beginning of March. I was still
17 working when there was an open front there, if I can put it that way, at
18 Kralupi, where there was shooting all the time during the night invariably
19 but sometimes during the day.
20 So the answer is that, from the very outset, or rather, as soon
21 as the SAO Romanija was established, problems started, or rather tensions,
22 among the two or rather three sides that were at war.
23 Q. In your statement, you say in paragraph 15 --
24 MR. STEWART: We ought to go into private session, I feel, Your
25 Honour.
Page 10885
1 JUDGE ORIE: We turn in to private session.
2 [Private session]
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
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14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
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Page 10886
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23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 60, since the Bench have no more questions,
25 and since the questions from the Bench raise no further questions for you,
Page 10888
1 Mr. Stewart.
2 MR. STEWART: Oddly, no, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: This concludes your evidence in this Court.
4 Witness 60, we have carefully read your statements, we have listened to
5 your testimony. It has taken you back to a time to which you must have
6 memories which, I take it, will stay over the rest of your life. We very
7 much appreciate that you came to The Hague, that you gave your testimony,
8 that you've answered questions both of the Prosecution and the Defence.
9 And we'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and for
10 assisting the parties and the Chamber in performing their tasks, and I'd
11 like to wish you a safe trip home again.
12 Madam Usher, could you please escort Witness 60 out of the
13 courtroom.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Looking at the clock, Mr. Gaynor, I did understand
16 that your next witness is not on stand-by to be called, or is --
17 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct. The next witness will not be ready
18 until tomorrow.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we still have some matters in
20 relation to exhibits. On the other hand, I do not know whether the present
21 members of both Prosecution and Defence teams are in the position to deal
22 with that, or whether they could be called, so that perhaps after a short
23 break we could finish that area.
24 MR. GAYNOR: Certainly, I think we could achieve that. We could
25 possibly deal with the exhibits of this witness first.
Page 10889
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we could do that, and then for the exhibits of
2 the previous witnesses.
3 Mr. Stewart, would you be able to deal with that, or would it be
4 Ms. Loukas who would --
5 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, it's not really me, I must say,
6 and I wonder, Your Honour, it's -- we're not in the same position as the
7 Prosecution, we're not all working around the building.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I hope Your Honours will understand,
10 bringing Ms. Loukas over this for this this afternoon would be very
11 disruptive of work she's doing some distance away from the courtroom, if
12 Your Honours will be indulgent on that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think if -- I think we could wait until a
14 moment when Ms. Loukas is present, and we will then now concentrate on the
15 exhibits in relation to this witness, because there's no other witness with
16 outstanding exhibits you would deal with, Mr. Stewart. We cleaned the list
17 so ...
18 MR. STEWART: I think we have, Your Honour. I must say when
19 it's Mr. Harmon and me dealing with this, I'm not sure we always
20 distinguish ourselves enormously in relation to these exhibits.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then first deal with the present exhibits.
22 Madam Registrar, could you please ...
23 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P549, pseudonym sheet, under
24 seal.
25 P550, ICTY witness statement, dated 04/05 October 1998, under
Page 10890
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13 English transcripts.
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Page 10891
1 seal.
2 P550.1, B/C/S translation.
3 P551, record compiled on behalf of the High Court in Zenica,
4 dated 10 June 1992, under seal.
5 P551.1, English translation.
6 P552, map of Ilijas area.
7 P553, official report of exhumation, under seal.
8 P553.1, English translation.
9 P554, three lists of payments to members of Ilijas TO.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Are there any objections?
12 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then they are admitted into evidence.
14 We have a few matters still on our list. The first is the
15 redaction of Mr. Bjelobrk's statement.
16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I've come to court armed with a
17 confession on this, Your Honour, not a written confession --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. STEWART: -- but I have come armed with a confession, which
20 is that I'm not in a position to deal with this yet. I apologise for that,
21 but there is quite a lot of work involved and Ms. Cmeric and I, between us,
22 we're just not there yet on this, I'm afraid.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, of course, we are -- become
24 more or less a bureau in which we give further delays and further delays,
25 because I do understand that the Defence had requested two weeks from the
Page 10892
1 7th of March. But I take it that you need some more time for
2 that.
3 MR. STEWART: Actually, what I did request, Your Honour, was
4 slightly more than that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, until the start of recess.
6 MR. STEWART: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's then -- the start of the recess is --
8 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I loosely used the word
9 "recess" to refer to that extremely generous weekend that we're heading
10 for, coming up.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you need some more time. It makes no
12 sense to force you at this point to give an answer where you can't give
13 that.
14 Then the next item on my list was the 34/35. Same answer, Mr.
15 Stewart or -- there was still --
16 MR. STEWART: I'm struggling to remember what that was, Your
17 Honour. Was this the one to do with the tapes?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the tapes, yes. On the 11th of March, you --
19 the Defence has confirmed receipt of these tapes, but at the same time
20 indicated there was still some problems. And I think at that time, we
21 invited the parties to give it some follow-up and to see whether this could
22 be resolved, yes or no.
23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, there was all kinds of confusion
24 about that and we did follow up Your Honours' suggestion by having an
25 informal but what seemed to be productive discussion about it.
Page 10893
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. STEWART: But for the life of me, I can't remember where the
3 discussion left us, except I do know this, Your Honour: It wasn't me that
4 was to do something next. That's the only thing I distinctly remember,
5 because one does tend to remember that, but I don't know who it was.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, do you have any recollection of who was
7 to do something, not being you or ...
8 MR. HARMON: Well, I find myself in the same position as Mr.
9 Stewart, Your Honour. I will resolve this with Mr. Stewart after the
10 break.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Since we have -- I don't know whether we'll meet
12 after the break. I mean just to come back in order to hear that you
13 further discussed the matter might not be very sensitive.
14 Then -- one second, please.
15 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: There was an issue and I will not give any further
17 specifications at this moment on confidentiality in respect of a witness,
18 and there were five paragraphs which should remain confidential in the
19 views of the OTP. And the parties were invited to tell the Trial Chamber
20 during the week of the 14th of March whether further discussions are likely
21 to lead to any solution; if not, of course, we would have to deliver a
22 decision on this outstanding area of disagreement.
23 Is there any indication from the parties whether -- I take it
24 that the parties are aware of what we are talking about.
25 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, this one I really do know
Page 10894
1 about, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. STEWART: This is my baby on this side, this particular one.
4 Your Honour, I made my confession earlier but this one is
5 another one where the ball is absolutely not in my court at the moment. I
6 have lobbed it over the net recently and it's on the other side of the net
7 and it has been for a little while. And I understand the reasons. This is
8 not a complaint, this is just a factual description of the position.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, any mention from the other side of the
10 net?
11 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, Mr. Tieger is dealing with that. He's
12 been away for the past week and I will raise this with Mr. Tieger and find
13 out what the status is and tomorrow we will report on this issue.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will not reconvene after the break to hear
15 that there is a solution in sight or not.
16 Then there was one issue, but perhaps, Mr. Stewart, it's too
17 much of a detail on P252 translation issues. You've got three weeks.
18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour is 100 per cent right, that it is too
19 much of a detail for me, I'm afraid, this afternoon.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although it's just Monday, I give it at this
21 very moment.
22 There being no witness available, I mean there's hardly anything
23 else we could do then but to stop. Of course, under normal circumstances,
24 we would have had almost one hour, and of course if we are planning and if
25 we are dealing with how much time should be available, also in view of
Page 10895
1 making some progress in this case, it's not only a matter of short
2 examination of the witnesses but also to use our time as good as we can.
3 And I do see that we now at least lose today more than one hour. I hope
4 that it does not affect the outcome of this week because I think all
5 parties were trying to finish the witnesses on our list by next Wednesday,
6 but at the same time, one hour lost is 25 per cent of the time we had
7 available this day, the effective time we had available this day.
8 So therefore, the Chamber would very much urge the parties to
9 see that we can continue the flow of evidence without interruption, of
10 course, to the extent possible.
11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I inject a positive note here?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. STEWART: I like to do that occasionally when I can, where
14 we are in the position. When I think Mr. Gaynor has come in within --
15 comfortably within the Prosecution estimate of time in chief for this
16 witness and then the Defence have come in well under the guideline 60 per
17 cent, that could be viewed really rather positively, and then what could
18 further be viewed positively is that, given the pressures in dealing with
19 the matter this week, rather than our filleting ourselves for not finding
20 ways of using the next hour in court, this time is extremely valuably used
21 out of court. So it is a distinctly positive result when both parties deal
22 with a witness quicker than the estimate and there is some time released to
23 deal with the very heavy pressure of work for all concerned.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do agree with you that, in the short term,
25 it has some advantages. It also has some disadvantages in the long term.
Page 10896
1 Let's spend the time which remains for us today as good as we can. We'll
2 adjourn until tomorrow, in the afternoon, same courtroom, quarter past
3 2.00.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.31 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of March,
6 2005, at 2.15 p.m.
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