1 Tuesday, 22 March 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
7 number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Good afternoon to
9 everyone as well.
10 Ms. Edgerton, are you ready to call your next witness?
11 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. Good afternoon, Your Honour. That's going
12 to be Mr. Bego Salimovic.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No protective measures?
14 MS. EDGERTON: No protective measures, and we will be seeking to
15 have his statements filed as exhibits under Rule 89(F).
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. Has the 89(F) summary been
17 presented to the Defence?
18 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, yesterday, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, is there any problem as far as the
20 89(F) summary is concerned?
21 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour, thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Usher, will you please escort Mr.
23 Selimovic into the courtroom.
24 Then, Ms. Edgerton, perhaps, since we are waiting for the witness
25 to arrive, I received an explanatory e-mail about the different versions of
1 the -- could you please look at the second last line, whether the number
2 0986 at the very end is correct or whether that should be 0980.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour, I have no idea what it is Your
5 Honour is referring to.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, well - we'll come back to that later.
7 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selimovic, can you hear me in a language you
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Before you give evidence in this court,
12 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
13 declaration that you speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
14 truth. The text will now be handed out to you by Madam Usher, and may I
15 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
16 WITNESS: Bego Selimovic
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak
19 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Selimovic.
21 Mr. Selimovic, you will first be examined by Ms. Edgerton, who
22 represents the Prosecution in this case.
23 But before I give you an opportunity to do so, Ms. Edgerton, do
24 I understand that a copy of this e-mail of the 18th of March has not been
25 given, this explanatory e-mail has not been given to the Defence? There's
1 nothing special in it. It just explains what versions of statements were
2 used and what versions were retrieved. Would it be possible to give a copy
3 to Mr. Stewart?
4 MS. EDGERTON: Absolutely, Your Honour. I have a copy here that
5 I can hand over.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps you can do that. And I think there's
7 nothing that -- there's no specific --
8 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour, indeed, I wasn't even sure I
9 didn't have it. I absolutely didn't even know what it was that was being
10 referred to, Your Honour. That was my question. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I might not have been sufficiently clear.
12 Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour. And just with regard to the
14 question you asked before, and this may assist Mr. Stewart by way of some
15 explanation, attached to Mr. Selimovic's statement to the ICTY of 1997 was
16 a barely legible copy of a statement he had given to Bosnian authorities in
18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I see the point and, in fact, am
19 rather relieved that nobody sent me this e-mail. So thank you very much.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That took me a while as well --
21 MR. STEWART: So I'm grateful for that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, perhaps you can check on the second
23 last line, the last four digits, whether it should be 0986 or 0980?
24 MS. EDGERTON: It should be 0980, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MS. EDGERTON: That might well solve everything.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I always regret that it's the Chamber that has
3 to find these incorrect references but let's not spend too much time o on
5 Mr. Selimovic, this has got nothing to do with you. It was all
6 bureaucracy. And now Ms. Edgerton will examine you as a witness.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Examined by Ms. Edgerton:
9 Q. Mr. Selimovic? Good afternoon, Mr. Selimovic.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. Mr. Selimovic, you, I understand, have given statements about
12 your experiences in 1992 both to Bosnian authorities and to representatives
13 of the ICTY; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, what about establishing, first of all,
16 the identity of the witness. Would that be a good suggestion?
17 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mr. Selimovic, could you give the Court your name, and tell us
19 your date of birth and your place of residence in the years leading up to
20 the outbreak of war.
21 A. My name is Bego Selimovic, from Gornja Bioca. I was born on the
22 21st of January, 1950, and I resided in Gornja Bioca, where I was born.
23 This is in Ilijas municipality.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Selimovic. Now, have you given statements about
25 your experiences in 1992 both to authorities of your country and to
1 representatives of the ICTY?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, I'd like to focus on two of those statements, one that you
4 gave in 1993 - and the for the Court, that would be the statement with the
5 ERN number 00987804 to 00987808 - and the one given to the ICTY in 1997.
6 Before you appeared in court this afternoon, did you have a
7 chance to read these statements from 1993 and 1997?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, in addition to reading them, and because you have some
10 trouble with your eyes that means you have a hard time reading fine print,
11 were those statements also read back to you in your own language?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you understand what you read and what was read back to you?
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like to ask that the witness be shown the
16 copies in his language of those statements, please, at this point.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, then, the witness is shown the more
18 legible but non-corrected version of his 1993 statement.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MS. EDGERTON: In the Bosnian language.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Does he have both the copies there, the 1993 and
24 the 1997?
25 Your Honour, with this witness, I'd just like to hear that he
1 recognises these before they're given an exhibit number, please.
2 Q. Mr. Selimovic, are those your statements?
3 A. Yes.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Perhaps now they could be given an exhibit number,
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: The witness statement dated 5 April 1993 will be
8 Prosecution Exhibit P555.
9 The witness statement dated June 21, 1997 will be Prosecution
10 Exhibit P556.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, specifically here I'd like to
12 have the ERN numbers read out as well, because there are different
14 THE REGISTRAR: For both statements?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mainly of the 1993 statement.
16 THE REGISTRAR: The statement dated 5 April 1993, the English
17 translation bears ERN number ET-0098-7804-0098-7808, and the B/C/S bears
18 ERN number 0098-87804 to 808.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Please proceed, Ms.
21 MS. EDGERTON:
22 Q. Now, Mr. Selimovic, do you find, or did you find those statements
23 to be correct and a true recording of what you saw and lived through in
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, I understand from you that you'd like, in court, to make
2 some small modifications and corrections to both those documents. Shall I
3 read those out to you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In paragraph 9 of your statement to the Tribunal, you referred to
6 the killing of your brother Uzeir, and you wanted to make it clear that you
7 were told he had been killed on the 30th of May but you only learned what
8 had happened to him on the 31st of May; is that correct?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. In paragraph 21 of your statement to the Tribunal, you wanted to
11 clarify that when you were moved from the school at Gornja Bioca to
12 Podlugovi, there were only two policemen there but there were four soldiers
13 on the bus you were taken in; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, turning to the statement you gave in 1993, the earlier
16 statement, in paragraph 6 of that earlier statement, you wanted to clarify
17 that Nafa, the woman named Nafa, referred to there is your sister-in-law?
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. EDGERTON: I should note that in the English version, there's
20 an error that should be corrected. It reads "daughter-in-law", so a
21 correction should be made to the same effect.
22 Q. Now, also, Mr. Selimovic, in this same paragraph, you noticed a
23 typographical error when they referred to the nickname of your brother's
24 son; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. And you'd like that nickname to read "Vajta", V-a-j-t-a, instead
2 of "Vjata" as it appears in the original version?
3 A. Vajta, yes, Vajta.
4 MS. EDGERTON: And I should note for the Chamber that the English
5 translation in that regard is correct.
6 Q. In paragraph 20 of your earlier statement, when you mentioned the
7 person who came to the camp in Podlugovi with Vasilja Stolica, you wanted
8 to indicate that this person who came with Stolica gave his name as Mico
9 and said his name was Seselj Jevac [phoen]; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And finally, you wanted to correct paragraph 32 of that earlier
12 statement because the date noted there that you were transferred to Kula is
13 listed as 8 February and you want to say that it was 9 February?
14 A. Yes, on the 9th we went to Kula, on the 9th of February.
15 Q. Now, those, Mr. Selimovic, are the corrections that we discussed
16 and went through prior to your testifying here this afternoon; is that
18 A. Yes.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I'd like to now like to read in a
20 summary of the evidence of this witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, one second, please.
22 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, would your summary and would the
24 statements tendered include the periods in 1993? That's a question.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour, in the limited regard of his
1 having been asked to bury the bodies of some persons who were found on the
2 side of the road and his release from Kula in 1993.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I understand the release from -- well, you said
4 his release from Kula.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Transferred to and released from Kula.
6 JUDGE ORIE: But, of course, if you're detained within the limits
7 of the indictment period, I can imagine that what follows that release is
8 relevant in relation to that. But if you are sent only outside the
9 indictment period to Kula, what's the relevance, then, of ...
10 MS. EDGERTON: The Prosecution will be arguing, Your Honour, that
11 the facilities at Kula were part of an interconnected detention system in
12 Sarajevo, operating under the same authorities.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then you -- I do understand that and I
14 think we heard some evidence on Kula before the 1st of January, 1993. But
15 what would anything after 1993 add to that evidence, and to what extent
16 would that be relevant apart from the fact that it did not stop to exist
17 and that people were still sent there.
18 MS. EDGERTON: That, in fact, would be it, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, let's proceed first. We'll later
20 consider whether this is of relevance for this case.
21 Please proceed.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour, just if I may, I did discuss
23 this procedure in detail with Mr. Selimovic, and he indicated it was very
24 important to him that the Trial Chamber receive the whole body of the
25 evidence as contained in his statement. So keeping that in mind, I
1 submitted the statements without any redaction at this point.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whether that would be a convincing argument is
3 another matter or whether there would be need to explain to Mr. Selimovic -
4 - well, the limits of a criminal case. But let's proceed at this moment
5 and not, in the presence of Mr. Selimovic, discuss the matter any further.
6 Please proceed.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour. This witness, Bego Selimovic,
8 is a Muslim from Gornja Bioca, in Ilijas municipality, Sarajevo area. The
9 village of Gornja Bioca was a mixed community pre-war with a distinct
10 Muslim and Serb part. Gornja Bioca bordered the village of Ahatovici,
11 which was a Muslim village, on its eastern side, and the village of
12 Malesici, which was a Serb village to the north. On the south was Vlakovo,
13 which was Serb.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ahatovici.
15 MS. EDGERTON: The witness worked as a security guard in a
16 factory in Stari Ilijas before the war. The witness stopped going to work
17 around 28th April, 1992. From the time he stopped working, the witness,
18 together with men of his village, kept guard because of sporadic shooting
19 into Gornja Bioca.
20 The night of 28 May 1992, Gornja Bioca came under infantry fire
21 and then shelling. The shooting went on for a couple of days. By 30 May,
22 the witness ran out of food and water at his guard post. He went to his
23 house to get supplies. He didn't find any members of his family at home.
24 While in the village, shells exploded nearby. He returned to his guard
25 post where they were joined by other guards who told the witness they had
1 been seen the Serb forces enter Gornja Bioca.
2 Serb forces started shooting in the woods where the witness and
3 others were hiding. The next morning, the witness decided to go back to
4 Bioca. There, he saw his brother Uzeir's family and was told by his
5 daughter-in-law Nafa that Serb forces had killed Uzeir and Uzeir's son on
6 the doorstep of their home. Nafa and his brother's son, Zihad, named one
7 Srpko Pustivuk, among others, as responsible for the killing.
8 The witness returned to the woods and found his wife and family
9 hiding in a little stream with eight or ten men and about 30 women and
10 children. They remained there until 1 June, when Serb forces started
11 shooting from both sides. The villagers were surrounded and taken by Serb
12 forces to the primary school in Bioca where they met others who had
13 surrendered. All together, the witness believes there were about 60
14 detainees in the school. The men detained at the primary school were
15 eventually transferred to a school in Podlugovi by armed men who wore
16 camouflage uniforms.
17 On arriving at the school, the detainees were placed in three
18 rooms. They found people from Ljesevo there, including about five women.
19 There were also people from Crnotina, which was in Ilijas. Between all
20 three rooms at this Podlugovi school, there must have been 100 detainees.
21 There was a toilet but no water, lice, and for Bajram, the detainees
22 received no food for two days. After that, they used to get a quarter loaf
23 of bread per person every 24 hours.
24 The chief of the detention facility was called Slavko. One day,
25 just before dark, Vasilja Stolica from Kralup came together with a Serb
1 that was armed with a gun and a hammer. They asked two people from among
2 the prisoners to go with them. One Bakir Sehic moved a bit. They tied him
3 up and took him away. He was never seen again.
4 Around 16 August 1992, the gaol commander let a man who
5 introduced himself as the minister of justice inside the school together
6 with two policemen. This man told the detainees they were going to be
7 moved to Semizovac. He told them they would have good food and
8 accommodation and they would be taken for work. While the man who
9 introduced him as minister of justice was in civilian clothes, the witness
10 saw that the two policemen wore camouflage uniforms and had marks on their
11 sleeves saying "Serb Police".
12 The detainees from the school were loaded onto a bus by policemen
13 in uniform and got out of the bus at Planjo's house. There were policemen
14 and soldiers there. At Planjo's house, the witness saw there were already
15 male prisoners there from Svrake and Semizovac, about 113.
16 The next day, the prison commander, whose name was Vlaco, ordered
17 them all outside and asked who wanted to work. No one volunteered, so
18 Vlaco himself picked out people. After that, when the prisoners were
19 picked for work, squads were made up by lining the prisoners in front of
20 the building and counting out the first 40 or 50 or 60 people.
21 The witness names some people in uniform who came from the front
22 lines to take detainees. Some were violent with the prisoners and beat the
23 witness. The same person who took them up gave the detainees orders at the
24 lines. They were told to do things like dig and cover trenches and
25 communication trenches and dugouts, carry ammunition, cut wood, and carry
1 the bodies of killed Serb forces from the battlefield.
2 The witness was first used as a human shield on September 19 or
3 20, 1992. He learned from another prisoner who had also been a human
4 shield the previous day with the witness's nephew -- that his nephew had
5 been killed on the front line. The witness asked Vlaco whether there was a
6 way to bring his nephew down from the battlefield, and that morning, Vlaco
7 selected the witness to go to Zuc to look for him. There were about 40
8 detainees who went to work that day. The witness never got to pick up his
9 nephew's body.
10 One Dragan Damjanovic beat the witness and another man as they
11 were forced to carry the body of someone else who had been killed down from
12 the battlefield. Later, a team of soldiers arrived and the witness was
13 taken with three other men. There were three soldiers behind him, two
14 shooting over his shoulders while one pointed a gun barrel at his back.
15 The same thing happened the next day.
16 About ten days later, he was used again as a human shield. The
17 witness was used as a human shield again at the beginning of October and
18 once at the end of October. At the beginning of October, one Spiric
19 Nebojsa, who was Vlaco's deputy, was one of the soldiers going behind him.
20 The fifth time the witness was used as a human shield, they went
21 to Ravne and there each prisoner had to carry a sack of sand behind him
22 with a Serb soldier going a short distance behind. The soldier would order
23 the prisoner to throw down the sack and the soldier would lie behind it and
24 fire from there while the prisoner had to run back and get ammunition.
25 The sixth time he was used as a human shield was at a location in
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the direction of Golo Brdo. The line commander, one Zeljko Trifkovic, told
2 the witnesses that special forces from Vogosca, Ilijas and Ilidza were all
3 there. When the witness and other selected with him arrived, they were
4 ordered to sing Serb songs. The witness was beaten by a member of the Serb
5 police from Ilidza. Later the witness and one other prisoner were taken by
6 special forces from Ilidza along a trail towards Golo Brdo. The witness
7 was told to walk with the other prisoner, following in his footsteps to
8 make sure there were no mines. His job was to watch for Bosnian military
9 forces and warn the Serbs. The unit commander told the witness that if the
10 Bosnian army fired first, the Serbs would kill them.
11 On 8 February 1993, the witness and 35 others were taken to Kula.
12 At Kula, the witness learned prisoners were there from Doboj, Manjaca and
13 Grapska. One day the witness was coming from back from work at the line
14 and told to collect two bodies lying on the side of the road. He knew
15 both, recognising one as Zahid Barucija. Two days they were told to dig
16 out Barucija and that his body would be exchanged.
17 While he was being use as a human shield, the witness recalls
18 that sometimes the Bosnian side would fire on them as they advanced. On
19 the first occasion he was used as a shield, the witness saw the bodies of
20 two men he recognised, also people killed by shrapnel while they were
21 digging trenches.
22 That concludes the summary, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, could you please slow down a bit.
24 MS. EDGERTON: That concludes the summary, Your Honour.
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I make two observations.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now we are ready with the translation.
2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, thank you.
3 The first observation is that the correction from the 8th to the
4 9th of February, having been made by the witness a few minutes ago in the
5 statement, ought correspondingly to be made in the 89(F) summary. I don't
6 think there will be any dispute about that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see from your nodding, Ms. Edgerton. Yes,
9 MR. STEWART: Not the biggest point in the case, Your Honour.
10 The second observation is this: That the version of the 89(F)
11 summary that was being read out by Ms. Edgerton is not the same as the
12 version which I have in front of me. It's slightly fuller. I don't make
13 any particular complaint. It's just that it's different, a question
14 implicit in that, Your Honour, with respect.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 Ms. Edgerton, would the Prosecution take care in the future that
17 the summary read out is the same as the one presented to the Defence?
18 MS. EDGERTON: I certainly would, Your Honour.
19 MR. STEWART: Thank you for the positive response on those
20 points, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, I've got one question for you in
22 relation to this summary. I'm not quite sure that the transcript is
23 correct, but right in the beginning, you said, according to the transcript,
24 the night of the 28th of May, 1992, Gornja Bioca came under infantry fire.
25 Yes, so I take it in the summary, the previous infantry fire, the shooting
1 from infantry weapons is not to be considered as really infantry fire --
2 yes, I now I better understand.
3 MS. EDGERTON: That's also my understanding, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
5 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I make one other observation
7 which I hope will be helpful. That was, and I make absolutely no complaint
8 at all about this, rather the contrary, that's a slightly fuller 89(F)
9 summary than we often have. That's a bit fuller than I had in front of me,
10 of course. But it's -- but I don't complain about that at all. In fact,
11 the Defence's position would be that it's helpful on the whole if the
12 summary is as full as possible.
13 It does lead to this, though: That so far that that's already
14 been read out and the witness has already, in his evidence so far,
15 confirmed these statements, we would be very supportive on the Defence side
16 of avoidance of going over any of that ground again, as much as possible.
17 This is not a witness -- there are witnesses in the other category. This
18 is a witness, Your Honour, where the Defence is particularly insistent that
19 these points are brought out orally in evidence. As long as they are
20 clearly there on the record, we are not encouraging drawing out or going
21 over this ground again.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although, of course, reading the summary
23 doesn't bring the summary into evidence because it's the statement that is
24 in evidence, and the reading out of the 89(F) summary is mainly for the
25 purpose of informing the public of what is tendered into evidence and what
1 will be admitted into evidence.
2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that isn't, clearly, entirely,
3 correct. With respect, we agree with that. But we are in this position:
4 That when the 89(F) summary is read before the witness gives his evidence,
5 it becomes a little bit artificial when the witness has confirmed the
6 statement. The 89(F) summary in detail is then based on that statement.
7 If the witness then is -- if anybody seriously supposes that the witness is
8 going to give evidence which radically departs from what we've heard now,
9 well, frankly, that's a very unsatisfactory situation because that leaves a
10 new 89(F) summary at the end to tell the public actually what he's said.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that everyone is happy with how it
12 went until now, so let's proceed, and we take proper notice of your
13 observations, Mr. Stewart.
14 Please proceed, Ms. Edgerton.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, before I begin with the clarifying
16 questions from Mr. Selimovic, I just want to direct Your Honours, if I can,
17 to Exhibit 527, because this witness's testimony relates to Ilijas
18 municipality, and I believe in Exhibit 527, at page 29, you have a map of
19 Ilijas municipality.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We even brought it.
21 MS. EDGERTON: The witness, Your Honour, has been looking at and
22 marked a copy of a further map which is effectively a blow-up of a
23 topographical map that covers the bottom -- can I say the south-eastern
24 part of Ilijas municipality, as depicted on page 29, and, to a limited
25 extent, the northern parts of Novi Grad municipality, as depicted on page
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Prosecution Exhibit P557.
4 MS. EDGERTON:
5 Q. Now, Mr. Selimovic, in the first paragraphs of your statements to
6 the ICTY and your own authorities, you describe the village you came from,
7 Gornja Bioca, and in your ICTY statement, you say your village was mixed
8 but with a distinct Muslim and Serb part. Could you just tell the Court
9 what were relations like between the Muslims and Serbs in your village in
10 the years before the war?
11 A. I believe that the relations were good, because we went along
12 well, we went to school together, went to play football together, went out
13 dancing together. And I don't know how all these events came about in our
14 village because I believe we ought to have protected each other rather than
15 kill and slaughter each other.
16 Q. At what -- can you recall a time at which tensions between these
17 two ethnic groups began to increase, a month, a year?
18 A. I'm afraid I don't understand the question.
19 Q. When did things start to change?
20 A. Before the war, a month before the outbreak of the war when the
21 barricades had already been set up. One of them was under the -- under a
22 fly-over there and another one was under the bridge at Bioca.
23 Q. Now, can I just direct to the map of Ilijas and Vogosca areas
24 that you have on the machine beside you, marked in blue. Did you make
25 those markings yesterday?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Have you identified your village, Gornja Bioca, at number 1?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. And what's the location you marked at number two?
5 A. The village of Ahatovici.
6 Q. Can you comment on the distance between your two villages?
7 A. Two and a half to three kilometres. There's a hill called Krstac
8 between the two villages.
9 Q. And is Donja Bioca, marked as number 3 on that map, a Serb or a
10 Muslim village?
11 A. It's a Serb village. There were only two or three cottages that
12 were owned by Muslims.
13 Q. Now, leaving the map for a moment, I want to ask some more
14 questions about the statements you gave, some clarifying questions. On
15 paragraph 5 of your statement to the Tribunal, you said that barricades
16 appeared on the road from your village to Ilijas in March 1992. Were those
17 the barricades you've just talked about?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Now, you said that those people who manned the barricades wore a
20 camouflage uniform. Do you recall what colour the uniform was?
21 A. Green, yellow and black. They also wore drab-olive uniforms. I
22 saw Simo Crnogorac wearing one such uniform, a neighbour of mine.
23 Q. By "neighbour of yours", could you tell me where Simo Crnogorac
24 came from?
25 A. Donja Bioca.
1 Q. What was -- is he a Muslim or a Serb? Is that a Muslim or a Serb
3 A. Serb.
4 Q. What was his occupation before the war, do you know?
5 A. He worked at the ironworks. He was a plain worker.
6 Q. Thank you. Now, moving on in your ICTY statement, in paragraph
7 6, you said that during the month or so, you stood guard around your
8 village, you heard some big guns shooting from the direction of Paljevo.
9 Is Paljevo the location you've indicated as number 7 on the map in front of
11 A. Paljevo is not a village, it's a hill where, during World War II,
12 in 1941 or 1942, there were some insurgents there. There is a plateau
13 there that has quite a propensity for artillery.
14 Q. Now, is that the location you marked as number 7 on the map
15 beside you?
16 A. Paljevo, yes.
17 Q. Do you know, or could you see where the fire was directed to, in
18 what direction the big guns were shooting at?
19 A. There was shooting in the direction of Soko Sarajevo.
20 Q. Now, in paragraph 8 of your statement to the ICTY, and throughout
21 your statement, you use the word Chetniks. Could you explain to the Trial
22 Chamber who you mean when you use that word?
23 A. This term refers to the Serb forces.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, in both your 1993 statements and your statement
25 to the ICTY, you speak of the killing of your brother, and in your earlier
1 statement, you indicated your sister-in-law identified Srpko Pustivuk as
2 the person responsible. Now, did you know this man, Pustivuk, before the
4 A. Yes, I did. He grew up together with us. We played football
5 together, and when we were going to different villages to play football
6 matches, he'd join us.
7 Q. Do you know what kind of job he worked at before the war?
8 A. He completed his schooling and then started working as a police
10 Q. How do you know that?
11 A. Well, we know because we used to see him wearing a police
12 uniform. He went with me to Ilijas on several occasions when I was on my
13 way to work, and I would stop by at my workplace producing prefabricated
14 houses, and he would go on in the direction of the municipality and then
15 followed his work schedule. I don't know whether he worked in Sarajevo or
16 in Ilijas.
17 Q. And, Mr. Selimovic, after you were detained at the school in
18 Bioca, did you then see Pustivuk, or did you not see him?
19 A. Yes. Once he came to the school, spent some five minutes there
20 and went away. We never saw him again.
21 Q. Do you remember what he was wearing at the time?
22 A. I believe he was wearing a police uniform.
23 Q. Now, in paragraph 11 of your statement to the Tribunal, you talk
24 about your capture and you say you were surrounded by people in camouflage
25 uniforms and told you would have to go to the school; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And were you able to see any of the people who surrounded you?
3 A. No. We were unable to recognise them because they were some 300
4 or 400 metres away from us, outside a forest there in the field.
5 Q. So who told you, then, that you would have to go to the school?
6 A. Refik Sehic and Zahid Sehic came and they told us we were to go
7 to the school.
8 Q. These are two Muslims who came; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, but they were taken prisoners the day before.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, in that same paragraph, you say you recognised a
11 man by the name of Cedo. Do you know his last name?
12 A. Yes, Cedo Pustivuk.
13 Q. Was he any relation, to your knowledge, to Srpko Pustivuk?
14 A. Srpko is a relative of his.
15 Q. Now, in paragraph 12 of your statement to the Tribunal, you say
16 that there were about 60 of you on your arrival at the primary school in
17 Bioca; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you know most of those people by face or by name?
20 A. Yes, they were all relatives of mine, friends, neighbours, from
21 Bioca. There was only one person from Crnotina, Huso Abdziaglic [phoen];
22 his nickname was Dzenadil [phoen], I believe, and the other was his real
24 Q. Thank you. And do you know the ethnicity of those people that
25 you recognised?
1 A. You mean those that were detained? They were Muslims.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, were you under guard when you were at the
3 primary school? Were there guards there?
4 A. Yes, of course there were.
5 Q. Did you know any of those guards by face or by name?
6 A. Not some of them. I knew all of them because they were my
8 Q. Were they -- did you know them, then, to be Serb or Muslim or
9 something else?
10 A. Serbs. What else would they be?
11 Q. Now, in paragraph 15 of your ICTY statement, you talk about the
12 men who transferred you to Podlugovi. Where did they come from, do you
14 A. I didn't know the people. I know that they wore camouflage
15 uniforms and had socks on their heads. They had slits for the eyes and
16 then some of them also had one for the mouth; others didn't.
17 Q. Now, in Podlugovi, when you got there, you found a large number
18 of people already there divided among three rooms. Did you know most of
19 those people by face or by name?
20 A. I only knew Zlatko Bece, and one other person from Ljesevo,
21 Husein, but I don't know his last name. We became acquainted later on.
22 Q. Do you know the ethnic background of these people that you became
23 acquainted with?
24 A. There were Muslims, one or two Croats. I only knew Zlatko Bece,
25 who died, who was brought over from the railway station where they had
1 thrown a smoke grenade at them. And Sehic Menso was also brought over with
2 Zlatko who died that very night.
3 Q. Now, just to turn to the map beside you, is Podlugovi the
4 location you've marked as number 4 on the map?
5 A. Yes, here it is.
6 Q. Were you guarded when you were at Podlugovi?
7 A. Yes, we were.
8 Q. Who guarded you?
9 A. I didn't know these people.
10 Q. Were you able to tell from the way they spoke, for example,
11 whether or not they were of Serb background?
12 A. They were Serbs.
13 Q. How could you determine that?
14 A. We found this out from Slavko, and we knew. Who else could it
15 have been but Serbs.
16 Q. Now, in paragraph 13 of your statement from 1993, you say, "They
17 took away Mensur Sehic," who you've already mentioned, "and Hamdija Drmic,
18 and Drmic was never seen again." Who is "they"?
19 A. He was taken by Mladjo Maksimovic, also known as Nikola.
20 Q. And is Maksimovic a Muslim or a Serb?
21 A. A Serb.
22 Q. How do you know he was taken away by Maksimovic?
23 A. I saw him.
24 Q. You saw who?
25 A. I saw Nikola and Hamdija as they went into the car.
1 Q. In paragraph 20 of your statement, you refer to the man by the
2 name of Vasilja Stolica. Is he a Muslim or a Serb?
3 A. Serb.
4 Q. Did you know him before the war?
5 A. Yes, I worked at the company producing prefabricated houses, and
6 he worked in the heater room that was part of the company that I worked
7 for, Kotlana [phoen].
8 Q. Now, moving on in time to August of 1992 in paragraph 20 of your
9 statement to the ICTY, and paragraph 23 of your earlier statement, you talk
10 about a man who introduced himself as the Minister of Justice. Had you
11 ever seen him before he came to Podlugovi?
12 A. No, never.
13 Q. Did you ever see him again after that?
14 A. Yes, once. This was at Svrake, at the building there, where he
15 came and asked us how we were, how we were doing, and that was the last
16 time we saw him.
17 Q. How was he dressed that second time?
18 A. He was bearing clothes that were blue in colour, a light blue
20 Q. Civilian clothes?
21 A. Civilian.
22 Q. How had you heard, because you talk about it in those same
23 paragraphs, that Svrake and Semizovac had been occupied?
24 A. We heard shooting and shelling over there, and then we heard it
25 on the radio, that it had fallen and that the Serbian forces had taken over
1 Semizovac and Vogosca.
2 Q. Now, on the map that's beside you that you've marked, did you
3 indicate Semizovac at point number 5 and Svrake at point number 6?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, next I'd just like to talk to you about your arrival at
6 Planjo's house, and the paragraph is paragraph number 22 in your statement
7 to the Tribunal, and I'd like to show you a photograph, it's previously
8 Prosecution Exhibit 379.
9 Now, you've got the images in front of you, Mr. Selimovic, on the
10 computer screen and beside you. Now, looking at that photo, which bears
11 the number 03616938 in the top right-hand corner, can you tell me whether
12 you recognise the building?
13 A. Yes, I do. I was in there. Of course I recognise it. We were
14 in this building in the cellar downstairs, and some of the inmates were in
15 this building on the ground floor. And the room was divided in two by a
16 table, so in one part of the room, we would sleep and in the other part of
17 the room, we would be served food.
18 Upstairs, on the first floor, there were women and children.
19 There was music there and probably the guards were there.
20 Q. So are you saying that this was the next detention facility you
21 were taken to after you left the facility in Podlugovi?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Excuse me, if you read numbers, you better do it
24 slowly otherwise they appear wrong on the screen. There's no risk here
25 because it's Exhibit 379, but an eight-digit number suddenly becomes a
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 nine-digit number.
2 MS. EDGERTON: I'm very sorry.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The 4 between the 3 and the 8 should not be there.
4 MS. EDGERTON:
5 Q. Mr. Selimovic, does this location depicted on this photograph
6 have a name?
7 A. It was called Planina's house.
8 Q. Does it look like -- in this photograph, does it look to you like
9 it did in 1992?
10 A. Yes, but I don't recall seeing these windows on the roof up there
11 because we were never allowed to really take a good look.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, you've mentioned just now, and also mentioned in
13 paragraph 23 of your ICTY statement, that there were women and children in
14 the building. How did you know that?
15 A. They would come to have dinner or lunch. When we were there,
16 they would also come.
17 Q. Did you know any of those women or children?
18 A. I knew only one woman, Ferida Terzic, who brought us food. She
19 didn't bring food to us, she brought food to Ferid, and he shared his with
21 Q. Was she one of the women that you were speaking up who were in
22 the upstairs of the building in which you were detained?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were there any other women in this upstairs of Planjo's house
25 that you knew?
1 A. There were women. There was a Serbian woman who married a Muslim
2 man. She had a young son. She was with them as well.
3 Q. All right. Now, in paragraph 23 of your statement to the
4 Tribunal, you talk about the male prisoners from Semizovac and Vogosca who
5 you found at Planjo's house.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, you were at Planjo's house for some time. Did you become
8 acquainted with a number of these prisoners?
9 A. Yes. Zajid Barucija, Esad Mracevic [phoen], Hido Ahmed and some
10 others whose names I can't remember. There was man called Halilovic, but I
11 am not sure. There were some people from the village above Semizovac, but
12 I can't remember their names.
13 Q. Did you know any of these detainees to be Serb?
14 A. When we were supposed to be transferred to Kula, a month before
15 that, Boro Margetic was brought there.
16 Q. So, to your knowledge, there was one Serb at Planjo's house?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And are you aware of the ethnic background of the rest of the
19 detainees there?
20 A. They were Muslims. There were also Croats there. There was one
21 Croat with us, Zvonko Puharic was his name, and he was also taken away. I
22 don't know whether he was taken to Kula together with us or later, but as
23 soon as he was brought in, he was put in a car and then I saw him again in
24 Kula. His name was Zvonko Puharic.
25 Q. Now, Mr. Selimovic, you were guarded while you were at Planjo's
1 house; is that correct?
2 A. Yes. You can see the entrance here under the terrace. This is
3 where a guard was standing and this is where we entered, and there was one
4 guard below by the gate. That's where we would go to descend into the
6 Q. Were your guards, did you know them to be Muslims or Serbs or
7 something else?
8 A. They were Serbs. What else?
9 Q. How did you know that?
10 A. I know because one was called Ljubisa. Now, I don't know his
11 last name. Another one was called Delipara. The third one was Vlado
12 Mrzlic. This guy Delipara, this was his last name; I don't know his first
13 name. There was Momir Damjanovic, who was also a Serb. And for the
14 others, I can't remember their names. I didn't know their names to start
16 Q. Am I correct if I tell you that I understand you're saying you
17 knew they were Serbs because you got to know them by name?
18 A. Of course.
19 Q. Now, were the guards at Planjo's house in uniform?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What kind of uniform did you see them in?
22 A. Camouflage uniforms.
23 Q. What colour of camouflage uniforms?
24 A. Green, yellow and black.
25 Q. Now, I'd like you to look at one document, Mr. Selimovic, bearing
1 the ERN number 0297-7353 -- 0297-7353, dated 30 August 1992.
2 MS. EDGERTON: When you're ready, if we could have the next
3 exhibit number, please.
4 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be Prosecution Exhibit P558.
5 MS. EDGERTON:
6 Q. Mr. Selimovic, I'd like you to direct your attention to the last
7 paragraph of that document and the name list. Do you see the name of Bego
8 Selimovic on that document?
9 A. I can see that, yes.
10 Q. Have you got any comment about this document and why your name is
11 on it?
12 A. I don't know. I suppose that they were drawing up lists as we
13 were taken to work.
14 Q. Perhaps I can ask you another way. Do you recognise the other
15 names that appear on this document with yours?
16 A. I do. They were with me in the prison, all of them, and we were
17 taken to work together.
18 Q. All right. And are these Muslim names that appear on this
20 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I'm not able to see an
21 English copy of the document so I'm a bit paralysed.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Mr. Selimovic, this document lists you and seven other people as
24 being taken to work as Zuc on the 30th of August, 1992?
25 A. Yes, we were taken to work, but I can't remember the date. It
1 was a horrible time. I can't remember every detail. But we were taken to
2 work every day; sometimes to Zuc, sometimes to Ravne or to Rajlovac.
3 Wherever we were taken, we had to work.
4 Q. So this document could reflect the time that you were taken for
5 work from the detention facility; is that what I'm understanding from you?
6 A. Yes. Yes.
7 Q. Now, you've named some locations where you were taken to work at.
8 Could you describe the type of work you had to do.
9 A. We had to dig trenches, we had to do the filling, we covered
10 trenches, we had to pull out the fallen Serbian soldiers. When they needed
11 people for human shields, they would use us. And then when we returned,
12 oftentimes we would be beaten.
13 Q. Now, again, at paragraph 26 of your ICTY statement, you name some
14 people who you say took you from the detention facility up to the lines.
15 The first name you give is a man called Milosevic. Could you tell us who
16 Milosevic was?
17 A. I don't know who he was. He was a soldier. He would come and
18 take 20, 30, 40 or 50 men and took them to work. He would take them to
19 work and bring them back.
20 Q. And Dusan Arnaut, who was he?
21 A. I believe that he was a soldier, just like the previous one,
22 Milosevic. He also came to take workers. He would take us to work and he
23 would bring us back. In the meantime, he would guard us.
24 Q. And Damjanovic?
25 A. Damjanovic, wherever we were taken, he would follow and he would
1 beat us. He would beat whoever he saw. If he didn't see us, he wouldn't
2 beat us.
3 Q. Now, the previous two names as you've identified as soldiers.
4 Was Damjanovic also a soldier, to your knowledge?
5 A. He was a soldier, but I don't know what role he played.
6 Sometimes he arrived in a camouflage uniform and other times in a black
7 uniform. He had a long beard, long hair. Sometimes he wore a black hat
8 with a cockade, and sometimes he also carried a flag with the inscription
9 Chetniks on it.
10 Q. So I take it, or could I ask you, these three men who you've just
11 spoken about, were they Serbs or Muslims or something else?
12 A. They were Serbs.
13 Q. In paragraph 28 of your statement to the Tribunal, you talk about
14 the first time you were used as a human shield on Zuc hill. Is Zuc the --
15 if you could have another look at the map that was beside you on the
16 machine, can you see, although it's been chopped off a little bit in the
17 reproduction, can you see the location you marked as number 8, which was
18 the first time you were used as a human shield?
19 A. Here, on Zuc? From Zuc towards Orlic or towards Kmetisce
20 [phoen], there is a playground there and some oak trees, and this is where
21 I was used as a human shield for the first time. That time, there was no
22 shooting. So on the following day, I was also used as a human shield, and
23 a further 50 metres was taken towards Kmetisce on that day.
24 Q. Now, moving on further in your statement to the Tribunal, at
25 paragraph 34, you talk about the occasion when you were used as a human
1 shield at the end of October, and you say, at that time, two Serb soldiers
2 were going behind you. One was Spiric Nebojsa, and you say that he was
3 Vlaco's deputy, Vlaco being the man you identified earlier in your
4 statement as the commander of Planjo's house. How did you learn that
5 Spiric was Vlaco's deputy?
6 A. On several occasions, he told us that. He said that if Vlaco
7 wasn't there, that he was our commander.
8 Q. Now, paragraph --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, before we get any problem, you say in
10 reproducing number 8 it disappears from the map, but you tendered a copy
11 where number 8 does not appear either. So perhaps for the record, I think
12 there is a problem in tendering a reproduction, but then to clarify the
13 issue, we find on the bottom right-hand side, almost south from where it
14 reads Vogosca, the city we see at the very edge of the reproduced map, the
15 word Zuc, and that's where the 8 was marked, I take it.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Correct. Just your indulgence for a moment, Your
17 Honour, because I think we are nearing the end.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, yes, because if you say you could
19 finish in a couple of minutes, then we'll continue; otherwise, it would be
20 the time for a break. But if you say it's a matter of not more than five
21 to seven minutes, then with the assistance of the interpreters and the
22 technicians, we could continue.
23 MS. EDGERTON:
24 Q. Well, now Mr. Selimovic --
25 MS. EDGERTON: And it won't be any more than five or seven
1 minutes, Your Honour.
2 Q. -- in paragraph 37 of your statement to the Tribunal, you talk
3 about being asked to bury Zahid Barucija. Do you have any idea of the
4 month in which you were asked to do this?
5 A. I remember, it was in January 1993, between the 22nd and the 25th
6 of January. I can't remember the exact date.
7 Q. Did you know who he was beforehand?
8 A. Zahid Barucija?
9 Q. Correct.
10 A. Yes, he was in Planjo's house. He was brought in as a worker.
11 He was brought in to lay some logs, together with Dragan Damjanovic and
12 Borisa. These two brought him, and they did not -- we didn't see him alive
13 again. On the following day, as we were working, we were told that
14 Barucija started running and that he stepped on a landmine and that he got
16 Q. All right. That's -- thank you.
17 MS. EDGERTON: I don't think I have any further question for you
18 now, Mr. Selimovic. Thank you very much.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Selimovic, we will first have a break, and after
21 the break - I take it that, Mr. Stewart, you will cross-examine the witness
22 - so after the break, questions will be put to you by Mr. Stewart, who is
23 counsel for the Defence.
24 We will adjourn until quarter past 4.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, are you ready to cross-examine the
4 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart:
6 Q. Mr. Selimovic, in paragraph 6 of the statement that you gave to
7 this Tribunal, you refer to keeping guard and you're organising yourselves.
8 You said there were eight guard posts, two men on each post, and you said
9 that your weapons were your own hunting rifles. Did you own a hunting
10 rifle before you started to keep guard?
11 A. No.
12 Q. So were you one of the men who bought a weapon subsequently?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what did you buy?
15 A. An M-48 rifle.
16 Q. And you say in your statement, later you had some weapons that
17 you bought. First of all, when did you -- do you remember exactly when you
18 started to keep guard, you personally?
19 A. I believe that it was on the 3rd or on the 4th of May.
20 Q. And had you bought that M-48 before or after you started to stand
22 A. We were standing guard even before we had rifles. We had only
23 one hunting rifle. And later on, Smajo Durmic sold me a rifle. He asked
24 me to pay him 300 German marks. I don't know who he himself had gotten
25 this rifle from.
1 Q. And if you started, as you say, to keep guard yourself on the 3rd
2 or the 4th of May, how long after that did you buy that rifle?
3 A. I believe it was on the 2nd of May or maybe on the 3rd of May.
4 But even before that, for two or three nights before that, we were standing
5 guard with one hunting rifle.
6 Q. You refer in your statement to you, and that's you and somebody
7 else, because you talk about "we had some weapons that we bought, as well,
8 two automatic rifles and two or three M-48 military rifles." Those
9 weapons, those were for the group that was on your particular guard post;
10 is that right?
11 A. No. I was standing guard with my own rifle, and there was also a
12 hunting rifle owned by Taib Dzogo. We took turns but we used the same
14 Q. Who had two automatic rifles and two or three M-48 military
16 A. Hamdija Durmic had an M-48, Mustafa Hadzic had an automatic rifle
17 that he had bought, and I don't know who had the other automatic rifle. I
18 know that there were some hunting rifles on top of these.
19 Q. You keep talking about the hunting rifles, but, Mr. Selimovic,
20 I'm asking you because it is your statement that says, "We bought two
21 automatic rifles and two or three M-48 military rifles." So far, you have
22 told the Trial Chamber that Mustafa Hadzic had an automatic rifle, you
23 don't know who had the other automatic rifle, and you had, you've told the
24 Trial Chamber, an M-48. So somebody else as well had an M-48, did they?
25 A. Hamdija Durmic had an M-48; I've said that.
1 Q. You're quite right. The transcript got a bit blurred there.
2 Those men, were they together with you on your guard post?
3 A. Not all of us. There were two men at one guard post, two other
4 men were at another guard post, and so on and so forth.
5 Q. Who was on your guard post with you?
6 A. There was myself, my cousin, Mirsad Selimovic, Ramiz Hamzic, who
7 replaced us, and Ferid Hamzic.
8 Q. So that's none of the men that you mentioned a minute ago as the
9 owners of this other M-48 and the two automatic rifles.
10 A. That's correct. Dzogo Taib had a hunting rifle. He was an
11 elderly man. He couldn't stand guard himself. That's why he gave his
12 rifle to somebody else. And there was also my rifle, the one that I had
14 Q. So was your rifle the one that -- yes, your rifle, was that the
15 only rifle available on your particular guard post?
16 A. Yes, my rifle and the hunting rifle that belonged to Taib Dzogo.
17 Q. So in your statement when you talk about "we had some weapons
18 that we bought," what group is it that you're referring to there as "we"?
19 A. I was referring to myself and to Hamdija Durmic, because Smajo
20 Durmic brought these two rifles and sold them to the two of us.
21 MR. STEWART: I have no more questions, Your Honour. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.
23 MS. EDGERTON: No re-examination.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Does any question arise from cross-examination?
25 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Bench has no questions for you either, Mr.
2 Selimovic, this concludes your testimony in this Court. Of course the
3 Court has read your statements as well, so the information you have
4 provided is not only the answers to the questions put to you today but the
5 statements will be available for the Court as well, which, of course, give
6 us more information than you've just told us today.
7 Mr. Selimovic, I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long
8 way to The Hague and to answer the questions of the parties, and I wish you
9 a safe trip home again.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness out
12 of the courtroom.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll just take a sip of water,
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, there's one residual matter, then,
17 that arises in relation to this witness's evidence which didn't require him
18 to remain.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's then hear that first.
20 MR. STEWART: Yes. Your Honour, it relates to the point that
21 Your Honours raised immediately before the evidence began, at the tail end
22 of the statements relating to events outside the indictment period. Your
23 Honour mentioned the limits of a criminal case. There is, of course, also
24 the limits of how far a witness has a say over what evidence gets admitted
1 JUDGE ORIE: I think I made that clear.
2 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. We're at one on that,
3 with respect, Your Honour.
4 In our submission, Your Honours, having explored it with Ms.
5 Edgerton, it's quite clear that this is -- this piece of the evidence is
6 not linked to evidence within the indictment period sufficiently closely
7 for it to be properly admitted, and that, therefore, should be excluded, in
8 our submission.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I'm not going to take a strong
11 position in this regard. I also advised the Court that I didn't make any
12 redactions at the specific wish of Mr. Selimovic, whose confidence in and
13 understanding of the 89(F) proceedings was ...
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: The Prosecution is expected to take out, since the
17 Chamber will not admit it, take out any specific events in January and
18 February 1993, Ms. Edgerton.
19 The practical way is how they are going to do that because to
20 produce even more paper might be not a good thing to do. What we'll do is,
21 the Chamber will instruct the Registry to strike out those parts of the
22 statement we have in mind, and then the parties will get a copy of that
23 specific page where we find any errors. If there would then be any further
24 problem, we will hear from the parties.
25 The Chamber, at the same time, appreciated to receive P558,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 double-side copied, because the waste of paper is not to be ignored in this
2 Tribunal, and especially these one-page documents could be printed out in
3 B/C/S on one side. The only problem for Madam Registrar is that one side
4 of the page would then have P558 and the other side of the page would then
5 be P558.1, but I think we would overcome this problem.
6 Ms. Edgerton.
7 MS. EDGERTON: I'd just like say, Your Honour, I can take
8 absolutely no credit in that regard, and pass it all on to Ms. Javier
9 beside me.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it the one who took the initiative will
11 take the credit for it as well.
12 Is there any other issue at this moment? Because otherwise I
13 would like to, first of all, go through the exhibits in relation to this
14 witness, and then to the extent the parties are prepared, also to pay
15 attention to the Djokanovic document -- exhibits which have been prepared,
16 more or less. I saw that there was at least a list of documents produced
17 so that we can go through that as well.
18 First of all, the exhibits in relation to this witness.
19 Madam Registrar, could you perhaps briefly ...
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar justly wanted me to make the
22 redaction first before the documents are admitted into evidence. I'm just
23 seeking the assistance of the parties. It is the 1990 -- no, I think it's
24 the ICTY statement ...
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I think it perhaps logically starts
1 with the other one because it has the specific dates, and then I believe
2 it's very clear in the other statement which events follow on from that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, I would like -- since I now see
4 the originals, Ms. Edgerton, what you tendered as P556, there is still, if
5 I may say so, the old version of the 1993 statement attached to it. Is
6 that what you want?
7 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour, we're not relying on the old
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but nevertheless, as you presented it, it's now
10 part of P556 so what we would like to have to be P556 is just the statement
11 without anything attached to it.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that starts with last three digits 973 and
14 goes on until 980 in the English translation, and it would be 915, last
15 three digits, up to 922 in the B/C/S original, or we never know what the
16 original is but at least the -- yes.
17 Madam Registrar, if you would. Yes, so we take the 1993
18 statement ...
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 MR. STEWART: We think it's paragraph 32 onwards is the earlier
21 statement and 39 onwards in the other statement. I don't know if that's
22 the Prosecution --
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's not our problem. We would like to have a
24 clean copy tendered of the ICTY statement without the attachment and also a
25 clean copy of the better, legible version, and I think that's P555, but to
1 have a clean copy separated from anything else. Could you provide that?
2 MR. STEWART: My apologies, Your Honour, I hadn't realised what
3 the particular hold-up was, I'm sorry for that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The next step would be to take out, I think, 31 and
5 32, as you suggested. Since the 1993 statement was P555, if I do not -- if
6 I'm not mistaken, yes, we'll take it out from there.
7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I wasn't pressing for 31 because I
8 think 31 does, in fact, strictly speaking, relate back to 1992. If not,
9 the -- the indictment period.
10 JUDGE ORIE: It's not very clear --
11 MR. STEWART: I really don't mind either way, Your Honour, on
13 JUDGE ORIE: If you take out the last line -- no, let's take out
14 32. I think that's a more proper way of --
15 MR. STEWART: 32 onwards, Your Honour, as we would understand it.
16 I think Ms. Edgerton is nodding in apparent agreement.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's unclear a bit.
18 Ms. Edgerton, do you have any -- for example, 34 is about the
19 detention in Svrake, which might well be within the time limits. The next
20 one, however, 35, would be in the Kula camp which would be on from the 9th
21 of February.
22 MR. STEWART: With respect, Your Honour, it isn't quite that
23 simple anyway. The sentence, "During my detention in Svrake, I was beaten
24 up by a Chetnik," and so on, that may very well stay in, but the rest of it
25 then relates again to Kula as to what did and didn't happen in Kula.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll take out paragraph 32, Ms. Edgerton, if you
2 would agree with that.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: 32 is taken out.
5 MS. EDGERTON: 33 can also be removed.
6 JUDGE ORIE: 33 is taken out, then, as well. I thank you. Then
7 34, first line -- the first sentence could remain and the rest to be taken
9 MS. EDGERTON: 35 can be removed.
10 JUDGE ORIE: 35 to be removed.
11 MS. EDGERTON: 36 and 37.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that's the last paragraph, anyhow.
13 Madam Registrar, this is then P555, and P556 would then be the
14 ICTY statement without any attachment but with translation.
15 Yes, so redactions, do the parties still need a copy of the
16 pages, or is that clear enough, what I removed?
17 MR. STEWART: That's clear enough, thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That saves another two sheets of paper.
19 Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: P555 is the witness statement to Republic of BiH,
21 Ilijas municipality commission for crime investigation, dated 5 April 1993,
22 a point 1 is the English translation.
23 P556 is the ICTY witness statement, dated June 21, 1997, and
24 point 1 is the B/C/S translation.
25 P557 is the map of Ilijas and Vogosca and surrounding area that
1 was pre-marked by the witness.
2 And P558, daily bulletin for August 29, 1992, Serbian Republic of
3 BiH, Serbian municipality of Vogosca branch prison, and point 1 is the
4 English translation.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 If there are no objections.
7 MR. STEWART: No, objections, Your Honour. Perhaps I lost track
8 of it Your Honour, but I'm not sure that we dealt with the equivalent
9 removal of paragraphs from the ICTY -- from the ICTY statement.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any -- I'm not quite sure whether there
11 are any equivalent --
12 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, it was 39 onwards, Your Honour. It
13 wasn't too long after that that we were taken to Kula. Those are the
14 exactly equivalent events, and the Defence proposal is that then there's no
15 -- there's nothing interspersed there. The whole of the rest of that
16 statement comes out as all relating to Kula and subsequently.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Edgerton, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, and 45 are to
18 be taken out.
19 MS. EDGERTON: And can we take out number 36? Because the
20 corresponding paragraph has been removed from the 1993 statement.
21 MR. STEWART: We certainly don't oppose that, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: So then 36 is taken out, and it's clearly in the
23 record that these documents that had not yet been filed, although were
24 admitted, the parts just mentioned are now taken out and are no longer in
25 evidence anymore.
1 MR. STEWART: And no doubt the public will appreciate when they
2 peruse the transcript and look at the 89(F) statement, they will realise
3 that the tail end of the 89(F) statement relates to evidence which has been
4 taken out of the case, so they will put it out of their minds as they
5 avidly read that bit of the transcript.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if they follow all of the transcript, they have
7 not only heard the resume but also the remarks just made.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, if I may just to raise something, in
9 complete fairness, that we may have overlooked. There is one episode in
10 which the witness was a human shield that looks like it's occurred in
11 January of 1993, and in all fairness, I thought I better raise it at this
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MS. EDGERTON: That's paragraph 38 of his ICTY statement.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I'll have a look at it again.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Please. I raise this, Your Honour, because he
17 testified, and from the totality of his statements, it's quite clear that
18 he was a human shield on the sixth occasion, found the body of Barucija
19 immediately after that, and within four days, two days - he's changed his
20 story a couple of times - but in any case, a very short while, was
21 transferred to Kula. So it seems to me we're talking about a time in
22 January 1993. And I apologise for not raising it earlier. I certainly had
23 not appreciated it until ...
24 JUDGE ORIE: It's not entirely clear. If we have got five
25 occasions, could we consider that this was not the end of it? I mean, it
1 doesn't add that much, it doesn't -- Mr. Stewart, do you insist on this
3 MR. STEWART: There are two points, Your Honour. While not
4 minimising the use of a human shield, six and five are not perhaps
5 fundamentally different for these purposes; however, it's very fair of Ms.
6 Edgerton to draw attention to that paragraph because it does contain rather
7 more. And if that paragraph relates overall, as it appears as a reasonable
8 inference that it does, then the whole paragraph should come out.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd rather not deal with it right away. If
10 the parties could see whether there is an agreement. If Ms. Edgerton says,
11 taking out 38 would be fine as far as the Prosecution is concerned, then
12 let's be very practical and take it out, if the Defence does not oppose,
13 and not spend any more time on it.
14 MR. STEWART: We won't oppose to taking it out if Ms. Edgerton is
15 prepared to make that proposal, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So 38 is out as well and is also removed after
17 it has been in evidence for a couple of minutes. It's not anymore, Madam
19 Then, if we could go back then not to the previous witness but,
20 first of all, Mr. Djokanovic. I have a list in front of me which goes from
21 P532 up to and including P548 and D37.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stewart, the registrar draws my attention
24 to the fact that none of the Defence exhibits introduced through Witness
25 Djokanovic have been formally tendered; that would be D37, an interview
1 with Dragan Djokanovic, published the 25th of June, 1992; that would be
2 D38, a witness statement, dated 12 to the 14th of February; and a D39, a
3 witness statement dated 16, 17, and 18 of December. I noticed that Ms.
4 Loukas announced that she would tender them. May I take it that D37, D38
5 and D39 are tendered?
6 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, certainly, and that does exactly
7 reflect the helpful discussions that I had this morning with the officers
8 of the Trial Chamber.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Margetts, looking at the P list, P532 up
10 until 548 and including that last number, Mr. Stewart, is there any
11 objection, because I would like -- as a matter of fact, usually Madam
12 Registrar reads out more or less the description of those documents, so I
13 would -- since there was an exchange of what the content of those documents
14 was this morning by e-mail, I would -- if we decide to admit them, if there
15 are no objections, I would ask the parties to look at the list prepared by
16 Madam Registrar to see whether the description shows any flaws, and if so,
17 the description could be changed. That would not change the evidence, as
19 Mr. Stewart, is there any objection against --
20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm not clear what list I'm looking
21 at. I had the e-mail this morning.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the e-mail mentions P532 up until P548.
23 Yes. I would like to know whether there's any objection against admission
24 into evidence of those documents, and as we know, Madam Registrar keeps a
25 full record of all the admitted evidence.
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: You received a list which gives the numbers, the
3 date of admission, through which witness they were admitted, who was
4 counsel for the Prosecution at that moment, and then a description which is
5 a bit more precise, usually, than we find it in this e-mail. If there's
6 any comment on the precise description, that could be changed. The
7 evidence, of course, would not change.
8 MR. STEWART: Yes, I understand, Your Honour. I had no problem
9 with the list on the e-mail, so Your Honour is inviting me, not at this
10 moment, but if there is any discrepancy, to inform the Trial Chamber
11 accordingly; is my understanding correct?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.
13 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. On that basis, I'm content
14 with the list as e-mailed to me this morning. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then P532 up to P548 and including that last number
16 are admitted into evidence.
17 Mr. Margetts, D37, 38, 39, any objections against ...
18 MR. MARGETTS: No objections, Your Honour. Just one comment on
19 D38. I think it was earlier described as a witness statement of 12 to 14
20 February. I think that was one of the dates that it --
21 JUDGE ORIE: It also on the precise list, you would see it would
22 be also the 13th of July and the 29th and the 30th of September, 2003.
23 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No objections, then. D37 up to and including
25 D39 are admitted into evidence.
1 Is there any update to be given on the matters I raised a couple
2 of days ago? I think it was yesterday that I asked. That was about --
3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I have -- on the question of Mr.
4 Mandic --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. STEWART: -- and that issue was private session and
7 confidentiality, Mr. Tieger and I did meet yesterday evening.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. STEWART: Mr. Tieger has lobbed the ball back over to my side
10 of the net. The only thing is that he's lobbed back exactly the ball that
11 I'd lobbed to him.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine.
13 MR. STEWART: So whether I'm going to play a different shot is
14 another matter.
15 Your Honour, I am going to consider again Mr. Tieger's proposal,
16 but it hasn't changed, and then -- and try to inform the Trial Chamber next
17 time we're here.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, the Trial Chamber mainly wants to
19 know not where the ball is but whether we have to give a decision.
20 MR. STEWART: I'm doing what Your Honour's just asked me to do,
21 Your Honour, which is report the position and --
22 JUDGE ORIE: So there is no solution yet. We'll wait until after
23 the -- after Easter, and if there is no decision -- if there's no solid
24 expectation that a solution could be reached by the party, we'll deal with
25 the matter ourselves.
1 MR. STEWART: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
2 Your Honour, I take it that, so far as there is disagreement
3 between us, if we are not able to resolve this matter, that we will have
4 the opportunity of making appropriate submissions in relation to that
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you can even make a proposal. Together with
7 the message that you think you could not resolve the matter, you can make a
8 proposal for a time schedule so that we could deal with the matter within
9 the next ten days after --
10 MR. STEWART: I'm obliged, Your Honour. Thank you very much for
12 JUDGE ORIE: Whether it would be written or oral submissions, the
13 Chamber will further consider.
14 Then I think the redaction of Mr. Bjelobrk's statement would need
15 a little bit more time.
16 D34 and D35, the tapes, was that settled?
17 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I understand from our case manager that
18 we're still working on providing that material to the Defence.
19 JUJDGE ORIE: Yes. In order to avoid us asking every day, would
20 there be any idea on when we can revisit this matter?
21 MR. HANNIS: She tells me the end of this week, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then after Easter we'll come back to that.
23 Then the translation of P252, does that raise any further -- or
24 should we wait for that?
25 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, so far, I hope I've been able to
1 answer your questions adequately, but as far as P252 is -- because I don't
2 have the faintest recollection what it is and can't give any assistance
4 JUDGE ORIE: It says that the OTP still awaits details of Defence
5 objections to the translation of P252, and the Defence is to give details
6 of its objections, and at that time, it says, within three weeks, and this
7 was the 28th of February.
8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the ball is clearly in my court.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Then, Madam Registrar, do we have any exhibits remaining from
11 Witness 60? That's all settled.
12 Are there any other exhibits still on our list, apart from those
13 we dealt with? If not, I did understand that the next witness would be
14 called tomorrow; is that a correct understanding?
15 MR. HANNIS: That's correct, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, have you got any idea how much time you
17 would need for cross-examination for the next witness?
18 MR. STEWART: I have an idea, Your Honour, yes --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. STEWART: -- which, of course, I'm conscientiously willing to
22 Your Honour, my idea is that I would be somewhere around two to
23 three hours, but, Your Honour, that's -- well, not even remotely set in
24 stone, Your Honour. I shan't be -- I'm not going to be days with him, Your
1 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any response from the -- of course, I'm
2 trying to find out whether we expect to be here still on Thursday.
3 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, the -- I think it -- I'm trying
4 to be helpful, Your Honour. I think it follows, and given that the
5 admission of this evidence and the order in relation to cross-examination
6 does relate to relatively confined areas, though Mr. Tieger has very
7 helpfully indicated to me a little extra material that he wishes to refer
8 to, which is perfectly helpful, I don't expect, Your Honour, that we're
9 talking about exceeding a single day of hearing.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that would include any further questions
11 that would come up due to cross-examination? Of course, you can't -- but
12 would there be sufficient time reserved for ...
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, judging by the pattern of questions
14 and a general ratio of re-examination to cross-examination and Bench's
15 questions, my confidence that we will finish within one day stands.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Hannis, do you have a similar expectation?
17 MR. HANNIS: May I have a moment, Your Honour. I think I
18 received an e-mail.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mobile phones are banned from court, now the e-
23 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, it was unrelated to the immediate
24 question. I think, based on what Mr. Stewart said and what I understand of
25 this witness and what Mr. Tieger told me, I think it may take all day, but
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 I don't think it will go into the next day.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's fine. Then the parties know that if
3 they are not finished, they will see each other back in court on Thursday.
4 We will adjourn until tomorrow afternoon, quarter past 2.00, in
5 this same courtroom.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.07 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of
8 March, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.