1 Monday, 4 April 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 The Chamber is a bit puzzled, Mr. Tieger, by the way the OTP is
10 operating at this moment. There was a message last Friday just before
11 5.00 that what we should prepare to bring, of course what we did is to
12 find the material and look at it and make sure that it would be there
13 because it would save half a wood again. Then this morning, at five
14 minutes past 9.00, where the Court were to start at 9.00, we got a message
15 that it was all not -- no, I must say this was a -- we received it only at
16 9.00 but it was sent just before 3.00 this night. "Please disregard
17 request last Friday for Judges' secretary to bring binders." Of course
18 the work was done and we start 15 minutes late. It's not something that
19 amuses the Chamber.
20 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
21 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour -- well, first of all it's not
22 something that pleases the Prosecution either, and I'm sorry for the
23 Court's trouble.
24 I hope it's clear at a minimum that we were on the same --
25 operating under the same principle, which was the desire to save labour
1 and paper. That's what we attempted to signal. Unfortunately, in the
2 process of communicating that, there was a misunderstanding and those
3 documents were indeed printed out. Once that happened, and I take
4 responsibility for that error, then it seemed that there was no purpose in
5 having those documents in court in full and having the Court as well drag
6 them down here. Apparently it didn't save the Court any time, but under
7 the circumstances, it was best at least to let the Court know.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, I do agree that it's that it's best to let
9 the Court know but let's not spend more time on it. It's -- are you ready
10 to call your next witness, Mr. Tieger?
11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. The Prosecution's next witness is
12 Mr. Milan Trbojevic.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Usher, will you please escort
14 Mr. Trbojevic into the courtroom. I never know where the accent is, is it
15 Trbojevic or Trbojevic?
16 MR. TIEGER: I have the same question, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could carefully listen to the witness and
18 find out.
19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, Ms. Cmeric always says Trbojevic and I
20 don't very often argue with her about the pronunciation of Serbian names.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I put the question mainly because Mr. Tieger said
22 Mr. Trbojevic and I had Trbojevic in my mind.
23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, before the witness enters, I might note
24 that he comes here under the same circumstances essentially as witnesses
25 we've dealt with earlier for whom the Court gave warnings. I don't have
1 any additional information to offer beyond that but I make that
2 observation to the Court.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Looking at the way he was interviewed, what was
4 said to him then, of course, was a bit different because he was not under
5 any obligation to answer. Here he is, unless he -- I'll take care of it.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Trbojevic. Before you give
8 evidence in this Court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to
9 make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth
10 and nothing but the truth.
11 Madam Usher will hand out to you the text of this declaration.
12 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
14 WITNESS: MILAN TRBOJEVIC
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the
17 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Trbojevic.
19 Mr. Trbojevic, before your examination will start, I would like to
20 draw your attention to the fact that you may object to answer any question
21 which -- to which the answer might tend to incriminate yourself. Under
22 those circumstances, we can compel you to answer that question, but if you
23 are compelled this way to answer that question, your answer cannot be used
24 as evidence in any subsequent prosecution against yourself for any offence
25 other than false testimony.
1 I take it that you understand this since I learned that you're a
2 trained lawyer, so I take it that you understand the importance of this
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that. Thank you very
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.
7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
8 Examined by Mr. Tieger:
9 Q. Good morning, Mr. Trbojevic.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. We haven't met, sir. My name is Alan Tieger and I represent the
12 Office of the Prosecution. I'd like to begin today by providing the Court
13 with some general idea of your background and professional qualifications
14 and political experience.
15 First of all, sir, I understand that you attended secondary school
16 and graduated from the Gimnazija in Jajce in 1962; is that correct?
17 A. That's correct.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trbojevic, I see that you have -- I can't see
19 what the papers are - they may well be empty - but whenever you think it
20 would be necessary -- it's empty or is it ...
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just sheets of paper, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine, I couldn't see that from here, but
23 you're not, without permission of the Court, you're not allowed to consult
24 any papers, as you'll understand.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
1 MR. TIEGER:
2 Q. Thereafter, sir, I understand that you graduated from the faculty
3 of law in Sarajevo in 1966; is that right?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. And that you served as a judge in Sarajevo until -- from 1997
6 [sic], beginning in the primary court and then moving up to the district
7 court where you served until October of 1990; is that right?
8 A. I was a judge from the beginning of 1977 until the end of 1990.
9 Q. And in that capacity, you worked in both the primary and
10 subsequently the district court; is that right?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. And in October of 1990, you began working as an attorney?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. Now, 1990, as we all know, saw the elections, the national
15 elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina. At that time, did you get involved
16 in the political process and were you elected to serve as a representative
17 in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
18 A. I was elected member of parliament in the Assembly of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, as an MP for the Serb Democratic Party without any
20 political engagement, because at that time it was allowed for non-party
21 candidates to be elected MPs provided that they signed a paper stating
22 that they do not mind being candidates. So I was a freelancer but I
23 agreed to be on the list and that is how I became a deputy in the
25 Q. Thank you. Prior to that time I understand you had been a member
1 of the Communist Party but you left the party after the 14th Congress,
2 which saw the dissolution of the party.
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Now, if I can touch briefly upon some of the positions you held
5 after your election as a representative to the parliament, were you --
6 after the establishment of the governmental authorities of then the
7 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and what became Republika Srpska,
8 were you selected to serve as the Deputy Prime Minister?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. And very quickly, how long did you serve as Deputy Prime Minister
11 and what position did you hold, if any, thereafter?
12 A. I came to Pale on the 20th of May, I think, 1992. I spoke to the
13 then Prime Minister of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and we
14 agreed that he propose me as a candidate for a Deputy Prime Minister.
15 This procedure took place in June when either the president, on behalf of
16 the Assembly, or the Assembly carried through that appointment, my
17 appointment to the post of Deputy Prime Minister.
18 That government fell on the 24th of November, 1992 when Prime
19 Minister Djeric resigned. We continued to serve until mid-January,
20 roughly, 1993, when the new government took over, so that is as far as
21 government service is concerned.
22 In the second government, that Dr. Vladimir Lukic was Prime
23 Minister of from January of 1993 onwards, I was advisor to the Prime
24 Minister, I held that office, and that government was in place until
25 August 1994, roughly. After that, I held no government positions.
1 Parallel to being in government, I was an MP as well until, I
2 think, the summer of 1994 when I was dismissed from parliament through a
3 decision taken by the Serb Democratic Party. They decided to withdraw my
4 mandate. This was not in accordance with the existing law, it was not in
5 accordance with the new law, but that is how my activity in the National
6 Assembly ended.
7 Q. Thank you, sir. Just to clarify, I think this is the point with
8 which the Court is very familiar, perhaps the record needs to be made
9 clear but I'll seek some guidance from the Court on that. When you say
10 you held no government positions after August of 1994, I understand that
11 to mean that you held no position with the arm of the authorities known as
12 the government in contrast to the arm of the authorities known as the
13 Assembly or, for example, your president. Is that a distinction you were
14 drawing in making that point, sir?
15 A. Yes. Yes. My position in government stopped when Professor
16 Lukic's government was no longer in place. I, as an MP, continued to be
17 active until I was relieved of my duties as MP.
18 Q. Now, can I draw your attention to the period of time after you
19 began serving in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina as an SDS
20 representative and the beginning of the outbreak of the conflict. During
21 that time when you were serving as a member of parliament, did you work
22 with members of the SDS leadership?
23 A. While the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina was still one, a
24 commission -- a constitutional commission was established, if that's the
25 right name. But it was a commission that was supposed to work on
1 amendments to the constitution and things like that. On behalf of the
2 club of Serb deputies, Serb MPs, I was a member of that commission. The
3 president of that commission was the president of the Assembly,
4 Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik.
5 In terms of this agreement we had, I was the one who stood in for
6 him most of the time at these sessions of the Constitutional Commission of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina when we were supposed to attend joint meetings in
8 Belgrade and things like that. In fact, when the Constitutional
9 Commission of Yugoslavia was still meeting when the representatives of
10 Zagreb took part and the representatives of other republics, when he could
11 not go due to his work in Sarajevo, then I would go. So of course there
12 was this kind of cooperation.
13 When we met up at Pale when war operations started, of course at
14 first we were all there. All of us were cramped in this one building
15 where there weren't proper facilities for work, but meetings took place
16 every day and everybody was there. The leaders from the Presidency,
17 Krajisnik as president of the Assembly, was here -- was there as a kind of
18 host. Karadzic, Koljevic, and others came, one, two or three ministers
19 when there were meetings there, practically every day.
20 So those are the activities and cooperation I meant. This is this
21 life we had together during this transition from peacetime to wartime. We
22 did not know where our families were, we did not know where our bags were,
23 you know, so we all lived together that way under these conditions in
25 Q. Thank you, sir. Returning our attention momentarily to that
1 period before the outbreak of the war, I'd like to play for you and for
2 the Court a couple of intercepted telephone conversations during that
3 period of time and seek your brief comment about those.
4 MR. TIEGER: First, Your Honour, if I can distribute the binders
5 and obtain an exhibit number.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: The four binders containing 114 tabs will be
8 Prosecution Exhibit P583.
9 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour, I wonder if I might just ask
10 whether there is, or can, without too much work and time, be produced a
11 hyperlinked version of the schedule of these 114 items.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
13 MR. TIEGER: I'm clearly happy to oblige, as Mr. Stewart knows, if
14 that's technically feasible. I wouldn't make that representation without
15 checking with those who are better placed to answer that but I am happy to
16 do so at the first break.
17 MR. STEWART: Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, I'd ask you to first listen to a telephone
21 conversation that took place on August 14th, 1991.
22 MR. TIEGER: And I believe there are two clips for those we'll
23 play successively, Your Honour. One is relatively longer than the other,
24 the first clip, and we'll play them in the succession.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Do we find the transcripts somewhere in the binders?
1 MR. TIEGER: Sorry. Tab 68, Your Honour.
2 The first clip will begin at the beginning of the intercept.
3 [Intercept played]
4 MR. TIEGER: Can we stop the intercept, please.
5 JUDGE ORIE: When I listen to the French channel, I receive a
6 French translation, but the English is not.
7 MR. TIEGER: If I may ask the witness, Your Honour, Mr. Trbojevic
8 was signalling, I think, that he was not getting it.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not getting interpretation.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- interpretation. Well, you are supposed
11 to get the original. Madam Usher, could you please check whether
12 Mr. Trbojevic ...
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear the original.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You can hear that?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't. I can hear the
16 interpretation into English.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then there must be a switch from channels
18 because we received the original B/C/S whereas the witness, who was
19 supposed to receive the B/C/S, did receive the English translation.
20 Could we --
21 THE INTERPRETER: The English booth hopes that it's going to be all
22 right now. Can we start from the beginning, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could we restart, please.
24 Mr. Trbojevic, if you do not receive the B/C/S, please tell me.
25 [Intercept played]
1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:
2 Radovan Karadzic: Yes.
3 Momcilo Krajisnik: Hello.
4 Radovan Karadzic: Hi, how are you?
5 Radovan Karadzic: I just got in.
6 Momcilo Krajisnik: What are you doing?
7 Radovan Karadzic: Well, I just got in, met some people and so
9 Momcilo Krajisnik: Really? I've been here all day. Lots of
10 things going on. Fuck it.
11 Radovan Karadzic: So are you still at work?
12 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes.
13 Radovan Karadzic: Really. It should be different.
14 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes.
15 Radovan Karadzic: You went to sleep early last night.
16 Momcilo Krajisnik: There is no field here at all, I don't
17 know how many pigs I've got or cows. Hello?
18 Radovan Karadzic: Hello. Yes.
19 Momcilo Krajisnik: I said I don't know how many cows or pigs
20 I have.
21 Radovan Karadzic: God is taking care of it.
22 Momcilo Krajisnik: I hope so. What are you doing?
23 Radovan Karadzic: You take care of this state and...
24 Momcilo Krajisnik: I am but there are others too.
25 Radovan Karadzic: Yes, yes.
1 Momcilo Krajisnik: The Presidency was held today, you know.
2 Some decisions were made. I don't know. I think we didn't understand
3 something. I examined this platform a little. I think that that's not
5 Radovan Karadzic: Do they say, ours ...
6 Momcilo Krajisnik: I don't even know what they were doing, I
7 think they ... they didn't get it right. Didn't understand it right. I
8 have no idea what are we going to do. ... Believe me, it's all in the
9 platform, Bosnia and Herzegovina is a sovereign state. I am afraid there
10 will be a scandal and then there will be trouble. There's no Yugoslavia,
11 this is two, three, five times worse than anything that was done until
13 Radovan Karadzic: Well, then we will have a break-up of
15 Momcilo Krajisnik: Let me tell you, we shouldn't take part in
16 the break-up, it is wrong... I think it would be good if we were to
17 consult a bit with our people up there. I don't know why they did
18 this. ...
19 Radovan Karadzic: ... why is it ...
20 Momcilo Krajisnik: I was with a guy who was present there.
21 Radovan Karadzic: And what did he say?
22 Momcilo Krajisnik: I think they didn't agree on what they
23 want. Debate has finished, in Presidency, he thinks the debate hasn't
25 Radovan Karadzic: Well, the debate finished in the
1 Presidency, now it is going to the Assembly, right?
2 Momcilo Krajisnik: Yes, that's right, but I think that's not
3 right, I'm afraid there might be problems in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
4 Radovan Karadzic: They're going to the Constitutional
5 Commission, right?
6 Momcilo Krajisnik: No, it's going to the Assembly. ... Look,
7 there are two problems, it was said that the platform goes to the Assembly
8 but the problem is how it is treated from then on. ... You know, because
9 that's what it is. They don't want it to have the constitutional
10 character which it doesn't really have at all. ... So that there are two
11 documents, one for creating a constitution. And today I got really angry.
12 Believe me, I haven't been this angry in a long time. We have groups in
13 the constitutional commission which have all kinds of meetings and
14 international relations and so on, and I was supposed to be there and I
15 said don't put me, put Mijanovic, Gaso, he is a professor. He's
16 realistic, he is not such a Serb, but he will know what needs to be done.
17 ... Milan should go with him and Krstan Malesevic on behalf of the SDP.
18 ... One member of the government was proposed and one of the Presidency.
19 Two government members and one Presidency member, each should be of a
20 different nationality. And today, I get the document, it is unbelievable.
21 ... Milan Trbojevic took part of it. I called then, Ranko was there for
22 15 minutes, Tmicic was, but he wasn't authorised, Mijanovic wasn't, Krstan
23 wasn't. And I mean out of the Serbs who were there, Milan Trbojevic, he
24 came to me and I said, please, we agreed about it nicely. ... There was
25 some objection, somebody should summarise it. Later on it should be
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 discussed. ... And they write, almost send to all the Constitutional
2 Commission members and to other commissions that he is involved in it.
3 Radovan Karadzic: You know what you'll do, let Milan
4 Trbojevic write an official letter for you.
5 Momcilo Krajisnik: Okay. I know what I did. Everything
6 there. I say you have to report to your people, you're representing the
7 interests of your people. He will really write it. It's a mistake of
8 Cazim Sadikovic ... But it's impossible in this ... way. ... I said you
9 will create a revolution. I don't think that something should be done now
10 in favour of the Serbs, but you, people, cannot do things like that ...
11 they will say that we betrayed.
12 Radovan Karadzic: How did Trbojevic behave?
13 Momcilo Krajisnik: How?
14 Radovan Karadzic: He does not see any danger, right?
15 Momcilo Krajisnik: That's a problem, I mean, it's really
16 difficult when we -- when I have to say that, fuck Sim ... and Ranko, and
17 I was there for 15 minutes, I was not authorised. Simovic sent Ranko,
18 Ranko says ... he went away. So let them go ...
19 Radovan Karadzic: Why don't you rub Simovic and Ranko a
20 little bit?
21 Momcilo Krajisnik: Well, I told them today, I was very angry.
22 Do you realise, people ... can you understand what is going on? You don't
23 have the right to convey this information. How can you do this? And then
24 they said, well, you know, they said they got in -- well, I said, you
25 can't explain it in that way.
1 MR. TIEGER: And Your Honour, the -- Your Honours, the second clip
2 begins on page 5 toward --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do that, Mr. Tieger, could you have a look
4 at the third page out of 7, semi-last box, where it says: "Karadzic
5 Radovan: Nobody of ours took part in it, right?" I missed that in the
6 transcript. There's no need to pay specifically attention to it but I
7 just note that it's missing.
8 Perhaps you can first ask the witness whether he heard that and
9 then perhaps later on everyone can check.
10 Mr. Trbojevic, we have a written transcript of this telephone
11 conversation and just before the participation in the meeting was dealt
12 with, in our transcript, it reads as follows, Mr. Krajisnik says: "One
13 member of the government and one of the Presidency were suggested, two
14 government members and one Presidency member, each should be of a
15 different nationality. And I get the document today, it is incredible."
16 And then in the transcript, it says, "Radovan Karadzic: Nobody of
17 ours took part in it, right?" And then the next line is: "Krajisnik
18 Momcilo: Milan Trbojevic took part in it. I called then, Ranko was there
19 for 15 minutes..." That line where it reads, Radovan Karadzic to say,
20 "Nobody of ours took part of it, right?" Did you hear that?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
23 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Trbojevic, before we -- well, let's play the
24 second clip and then I'll ask some questions about the intercept
25 generally. And again the continuation can be found beginning at page 5
1 toward the bottom in the English translation.
2 [Intercept played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:
4 Momcilo Krajisnik: Listen, Radovan ... come on, please, I
5 advise you to sit down ... I don't know really where since our club up
6 there is working.
7 Radovan Karadzic: If it doesn't work maybe my place would be
9 Momcilo Krajisnik: Okay, we'll speak later, I'll call you at
10 home ... all right. And let's try to organise it.
11 Radovan Karadzic: I go home now, to get some rest, I hope
12 Buha is not there, probably he isn't.
13 Momcilo Krajisnik: I don't know. I will organise those you
14 think I should, and then will let you know, right?
15 Radovan Karadzic: Shall we call Milan, then?
16 Momcilo Krajisnik: What?
17 Radovan Karadzic: Shall we call Milan also?
18 Momcilo Krajisnik: I don't think that's necessary.
19 Radovan Karadzic: All right, we'll take Biljana and Nikola,
20 you and me.
21 Momcilo Krajisnik: Well, you can call him since he is
22 important in that commission, you know. ... You -- why don't you see who
23 needs to be there and then let's talk.
24 Radovan Karadzic: I will.
25 Momcilo Krajisnik: Okay. I will be home and then I will
2 JUDGE ORIE: Also here it seems that parts are missing, Mr. Tieger
3 from our transcript. For example, I didn't -- I don't see -- for example,
4 after it says "Shall we call Milan also," then it continues, "Well, you
5 can call him since he is important in that commission, you know."
6 Therefore, two lines are missing, both the line "I think it's not
7 necessary," and "Okay, we can take Biljana, Nikola, you and me." Those
8 are not appearing in the transcript.
9 MR. TIEGER: I think that's correct, Your Honour, although I
10 recall hearing that translation.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then -- well, then if that's --
12 MR. TIEGER: If it's necessary to play it again to clarify the
13 record, I don't --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'd like to have this replayed again because I
15 don't remember -- my attention was drawn to it since I didn't hear it when
16 I was reading.
17 Let's play the clip again, at least if that's possible without ...
18 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:
19 Momcilo Krajisnik: Listen, Radovan ... Come on, please, I
20 suggest that we sit down and talk. I don't know where since our club is
22 Radovan Karadzic: It doesn't work, maybe my place would be
24 Momcilo Krajisnik: All right, let's speak later, I'll call
25 you at home. Try to organise it.
1 Radovan Karadzic: I will go home now and take some rest, I
2 hope Buha is not there, probably he isn't.
3 Momcilo Krajisnik: I don't know. Why don't you gather who
4 you think should be there and let me know, please.
5 Radovan Karadzic: Shall we call Milan, then?
6 Momcilo Krajisnik: What?
7 Radovan Karadzic: Shall we call Milan?
8 Momcilo Krajisnik: I don't think that's necessary.
9 Radovan Karadzic: All right, then let's get Biljana, Nikola,
10 you and me.
11 Momcilo Krajisnik: Well, you can call him since he's
12 important in that commission, you know.
13 Radovan Karadzic: Yes.
14 Momcilo Krajisnik: Why don't you see who needs to be there
15 and then we will talk. Will you call me?
16 Radovan Karadzic: I will.
17 Momcilo Krajisnik: Will you be at home?
18 Radovan Karadzic: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. First of all, Mr. Trbojevic, did you recognise the voices of the
23 A. I think that it is Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik.
24 Q. And you're mentioned in that conversation, as we could hear, and
25 also the Constitutional Commission. Can you provide us with some further
1 understanding of what you understood that conversation to be about and
2 what you recall taking place at that time and your involvement in it.
3 A. I have to confess that I don't know what this was about. This was
4 probably one of numerous meetings where issues were discussed, certain
5 material arriving from all kinds of places. Based on this conversation, I
6 can see that at the time, I gave an explanation and that it was agreed
7 that all of these discussions had to be summarised and then further
8 discussed, but I really couldn't tell you anything more about which parts
9 of the Constitution, did this involve Constitution at all, I truly do not
10 remember that.
11 Q. Is it, however, more broadly a reflection of your work in
12 connection with the Constitutional Commission you mentioned to us earlier?
13 A. Most likely. This was most likely part of my duties. Based on
14 this conversation, I provided an explanation to the effect that this had
15 not been completed and that opinions would be collected from all sides and
16 that we would continue discussions. This probably had to do with some
17 technical issues, positions, guidelines, how we ought to proceed, and so
18 on. And it seems that it was expected that this would be further
19 discussed and then decided upon later. Right now, I really couldn't tell
20 you what this platform was about.
21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm going to next move on to the other
22 conversation I spoke about, unless the Court had a question earlier, so I
23 didn't want to cut off any question the Court might have, otherwise I'm
24 about to move on to the next conversation.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You may move on.
1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, that can be found at tab 69, binder 2.
2 [Intercept played].
3 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]:
4 Milan Trbojevic: Good evening.
5 Ljiljana Karadzic: Good evening.
6 Milan Trbojevic: This is Milan Trbojevic.
7 Ljiljana Karadzic: Oh, Milan, how are you?
8 Milan Trbojevic: What's up?
9 Ljiljana Karadzic: Well, I couldn't tell you myself - I spent
10 the entire day in Pale and at work ...
11 Milan Trbojevic: I was in Pale as well.
12 Ljiljana Karadzic: Oh, really? ... Yes, I was in the former S
14 Milan Trbojevic: Oh, I was in the municipality building.
15 Ljiljana Karadzic: I was with these refugees. ... That's
16 really horrible, when you arrive there and you see all the children. ... I
17 really get depressed.
18 Milan Trbojevic: Yes, it's quite unbelievable ...
19 Ljiljana Karadzic: Horrible. I mean, it all seems to be so
20 far away but it's actually very close.
21 Milan Trbojevic: Yes, one wonders what our ethics is all
22 about ... to live a civilian life here.
23 Ljiljana Karadzic: Yes, that's terrible. ... Radovan is here,
24 he arrived maybe 15 minutes ago. All right. Well, I'll let you talk to
25 him. Say hi to everyone at home. Tell Rada that the colleague of mine
1 took two days off so I didn't get to talk to her. ... Good-bye.
2 Milan Trbojevic: Good evening, Radovan.
3 Radovan Karadzic: Good evening.
4 Milan Trbojevic: What are you doing?
5 Radovan Karadzic: Well, I just arrived home. I'm resting.
6 Milan Trbojevic: There must be a lot of work.
7 Radovan Karadzic: No, no problems.
8 Milan Trbojevic: How are you?
9 Radovan Karadzic: I'm all right. What about you?
10 Milan Trbojevic: I'm here at the office.
11 Radovan Karadzic: Is it all right?
12 Milan Trbojevic: I want to write something, it's all right,
13 there is a lot of work. ... Look, I called you the other night, you
14 remember ... when those people from the Jugopetrol came.
15 Radovan Karadzic: Yes.
16 Milan Trbojevic: And then the director of one private
17 company, Strbac, asked me ... because he had some business contacts with
18 them ... and he called me tonight ... after the conversation that you had
19 with them. ... He has a feeling that his status in business relations with
20 them is a bit less favourable.
21 Radovan Karadzic: Less favourable?
22 Milan Trbojevic: Yes.
23 Radovan Karadzic: I didn't mention him at all.
24 Milan Trbojevic: So he would like you, when you have a bit of
25 time, for you to meet with him and me.
1 Radovan Karadzic: Well, what does he have to do with that?
2 Milan Trbojevic: Well, he bought some sort of derivative ...
3 for hospitals and for ... I don't know who else.
4 Radovan Karadzic: And he bought it in what capacity ... for
5 his company?
6 Milan Trbojevic: Yes.
7 Radovan Karadzic: This is his private company.
8 Milan Trbojevic: That's right.
9 Radovan Karadzic: Well, let me tell you we have to put it all
10 under one umbrella. I have to say that I had no idea that it was linked
11 to him. ... We have to put it all under one umbrella because some of our
12 institutions will be funded through that. ...
13 Milan Trbojevic: Well, he would like us to meet with you.
14 Radovan Karadzic: And what is he by profession?
15 Milan Trbojevic: I don't know. He's been in commerce for
17 Radovan Karadzic: I have no idea. I didn't mention him at
18 all. I only said that we would soon establish an institution within our
19 Assembly, you know, I couldn't -- I can't tell you about that on the phone
20 but it would go through that so that we could finance our institutions
21 from that. ... So it's not a problem. No, no, no, not a problem at all.
22 I didn't even mention him.
23 Milan Trbojevic: You certainly didn't.
24 Radovan Karadzic: No, no, I wouldn't even remember him. Not
25 at all. Certainly not. It's just that we have to stick to that now, we
1 cannot be left without it. ... And we'll try to include him in our systems
2 and that's all.
3 Milan Trbojevic: So when are we going to talk about it?
4 Radovan Karadzic: One of these days ... after the plebescite
5 is over.
6 Milan Trbojevic: All right.
7 Radovan Karadzic: All right, deal. ... All right. Good-bye.
8 Mr. Trbojevic, can you tell us, please, who is speaking and what
9 the conversation is generally about.
10 A. It was Mr. Karadzic and myself. Obviously, I called. This
11 conversation, in my deep conviction, is about trade and it has nothing to
12 do with the activities of this Tribunal. Branko Strbac is a man who is
13 deceased now, he died in the meantime. He was a person who was involved
14 in trade and I met him in the corridors of courts as an accused person in
15 different cases. We had known each other for years. He was involved in
17 Q. I appreciate you were attempting to answer my question as best you
18 could, but since you indicate the details of the conversation may not be
19 of interest, I just want to ask you generally about the subject matter of
20 attempting to finance institutions. Mr. Karadzic said, "We'll soon have
21 to put everything in one basket because that's what some institutions --
22 or some institutions will be funded by that."
23 Was there generally an effort at this time to find methods of
24 funding for the SDS and the institutions of the SDS or institutions that
25 would arise from ongoing efforts?
1 A. You heard that he said during this telephone conversation, "I
2 cannot tell you now but work is being done on it." I don't know what the
3 SDS intended to do and how to secure its financing. I know specifically
4 that I was asked to prepare and carry out the registration of a company
5 which would actually be a stock company and it was the members of the SDS
6 who would be the shareholders. You know what the procedure is like in a
7 court of law in this respect, to fill out different forms, to have a
8 meeting of shareholders, to have minutes about this, so -- and to submit
9 all of that in court.
10 So a company was set up, it was called Novi Privrednik. Now, what
11 it did and how much of their revenue they gave to the SDS or whether they
12 gave any of their revenues to the SDS is something that I don't know about
13 because I was not a member of the board or anything in that company. I
14 simply knew that it was there. After I took care of the registration, I
15 had no further contact with this.
16 And in this context, this Strbac asked me to bring him into touch
17 with Karadzic because he wanted to be one of the trading partners of the
18 said company. That was it. In that respect, I really have no further
19 knowledge how long the company functioned, whether there are any written
20 traces today in the court documents. I know that I sent the decision on
21 the registration of this company by fax to Mr. Aleksimilovic [phoen] in
22 Pale sometime in the beginning of 1992. Now, was the seat of the company
23 later moved to Bijeljina or somewhere else is something that I really
24 don't know about.
25 Q. Yes, thank you, sir. I'd like to ask you to look at another
1 document that involves the issue of funding, and that can be found at tab
2 114 in binder 4.
3 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, to clarify, I'm only seeking the
4 admission of the -- and only directing the witness's attention to the copy
5 of the contract that is found in the article, and although the article is
6 translated, it would be my intention to simply have the rest of the
7 English translation essentially deleted, unless the Court feels it's
8 necessary for context, and just focus on that contract itself.
9 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, I recognise that the copy is a bit small, but I'm
10 hoping you can make it out. It reflects a contract signed in Sarajevo on
11 the 21st of November, 1991 by a Bauxite Milici represented by general
12 manager Rajko Djukic and by the President of the SDS, Dr. Karadzic, for
13 the supply of oil. And it indicates in part in Article 2 that Bauxite
14 Milici hereby undertakes to pay to the Serbian Democratic Party of
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina as reimbursement for the said position and right the
16 sum of 3 dinars per each litre of so acquired fuel.
17 Mr. Trbojevic, do you know whether or not this contract
18 represented another effort to find funding for the institutions of the
20 A. No, I've never seen this contract and I don't know about this
21 effort. I'm not familiar with this at all that the SDS gave this
22 possibility to Milici to do so and how this was done. I really don't know
23 anything about this.
24 Q. Did you know Mr. Djukic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And who was he?
2 A. Djukic was the director of this mine, Milici. Milici is a very
3 small town. Most of the people are employed in the mine so the mine is
4 everything, really. They built a pool for the community and many other
5 things, and Milici lives on the profitability of the mine and the director
6 of the mine is the main person in town.
7 Now, was he the president of the executive committee of the Serb
8 Democratic Party or something like that, at any rate, he was a high
9 official of the SDS but I'm not sure whether I gave you his exact title.
10 I met him a few times during the war and after the war. He's still the
11 director. Even now, he's still the director of that mine.
12 Q. And I note also that in Article 1 of the contract, it indicates
13 that the SDS undertakes to ensure for Bauxite the position of chief
14 supplier of oil and oil derivatives for Bosnia-Herzegovina through
15 Jugopetrol, and I recall that in the intercept we listened to involving
16 the -- the conversation between you and Dr. Karadzic, you mentioned to him
17 that -- you mentioned to him people from Jugopetrol, and I wondered if
18 that refreshed your recollection at all about either general efforts by
19 the SDS to work with Jugopetrol on the supply of oil to fund institutions
20 or more specifically to Djukic's involvement in that?
21 A. Unfortunately, I don't know anything about any of this.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 A. I mentioned Jugopetrol because I probably heard it from Strbac,
24 that the representatives of Jugopetrol were there and said that they would
25 be selling oil through the SDS or somebody else but I really don't know
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 about that. I don't know.
2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it may be that in light of those
3 answers -- it's not a big issue, but I confess I'm slightly puzzled by the
4 suggestion to delete part of the English translation of this article. I
5 suggest that either part of the article is deleted altogether from both
6 the B/C/S and English as irrelevant or neither.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I understood that only the contract would
8 be in evidence as published in a newspaper article, and that would be true
9 both for the B/C/S and for the English translation.
10 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, that's right.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. TIEGER:
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Trbojevic. If I can turn your attention now to
14 something you mentioned earlier, and that was your departure from Sarajevo
15 and your arrival in Pale, which I think you indicated was around the
16 middle moving into the latter part of May, 1992.
17 A. Around the 20th.
18 Q. Did Mr. -- were you -- may I ask you this: Were you contacted by
19 Mr. Djeric or anyone else before you left Sarajevo? In other words, while
20 you were in Sarajevo, were you asked to come to Pale?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And once you arrived in Pale, were you approached by Mr. Djeric or
23 by someone else?
24 A. Branko Djeric.
25 Q. What was Mr. Djeric's position at the time?
1 A. He was Prime Minister of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 Q. And did he ask you to assume or undertake a certain position?
3 A. He said that he wanted me to be Deputy Prime Minister and that he
4 would ask Karadzic and Krajisnik for their consent. And he asked for my
5 consent in this respect, and I agreed.
6 Q. And did Mr. Djeric obtain consent from Mr. Karadzic and
7 Mr. Krajisnik for your selection and did you then assume the position?
8 A. Well, I don't know whether he talked to both of them or whether he
9 talked to them at all, but I think that Karadzic signed the decision on my
10 appointment. As far as I can remember, that is.
11 Q. Let me just mention, if I may, a portion of the -- of one of the
12 conversations you had with the Office of the Prosecutor earlier and see if
13 that refreshes your recollection about the conversation that you had with
14 Mr. Djeric in that connection.
15 That portion can be found in the interview of March -- the March
16 interview at page 8. And at that time, Mr. Trbojevic, in discussing the
17 conversation you had with Mr. Djeric when he asked you to assume the
18 position of Deputy Prime Minister, you said, "Djeric told me that Karadzic
19 and Krajisnik gave their consent."
20 Does that refresh your recollection about that conversation and
21 what you were told by Mr. Djeric at that time?
22 A. Well, I cannot state with certainty even today whether he already
23 had this consent for my appointment or whether he would get it
24 subsequently. Believe me, it wasn't that important to me. So I didn't
25 really think about it. I cannot say even today whether he said we had
1 agreed that I should make this proposal to you or whether he said, "Do I
2 have your consent to make this proposal?" I really cannot say.
3 Both options are possible, but I really don't know now.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note, could the witness's
5 microphone please be turned on. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djeric --
7 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Trbojevic, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm sorry. Mr. Trbojevic, you spent a lot of
9 words in answering that question. You were confronted with the lines
10 reading, "Djeric told me that Karadzic and Krajisnik gave their consent."
11 Did he tell you? Did he say so to you? I'm not asking whether he got the
12 consent, whether he got it prior, whether he got it later, whether he
13 didn't get it at all. The question is just: Did Mr. Djeric tell you that
14 he got the consent of Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In all honesty, I cannot make any
16 categorical statements to you now. What was important for me was that
17 this consent was there and that I would stay there and do something. Now,
18 whether he got the consent before talking to me or after that or whether
19 it happened the same day or -- I really cannot ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please, I precisely told you that I was not asking
21 whether they got -- he got the consent but whether he told you that he had
22 got it.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He certainly said that, but I cannot
24 tell you now whether he said that before talking to me or afterwards.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So he told you that he got the consent of
1 Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. -- Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik. Now, part of your
2 previous answer was, you said, "What was important for me was that this
3 consent was there and that I would stay there and do something." Would
4 that mean that, without this consent, you were not confident that you
5 could stay and do something?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, you recall the date of your formal appointment and
11 perhaps it's not necessary to take time to show an exhibit that indicates
12 your formal appointment as Deputy Prime Minister on the 8th of June, but
13 let me ask you if you began to serve informally as Deputy Prime Minister
14 before that point.
15 A. I started immediately on an informal basis, immediately after that
17 Q. Can you give us some idea of your --
18 A. Or actually, I started working formally but without a formal
20 Q. Can you give us some ideas of your duties and responsibilities as
21 Deputy Prime Minister?
22 A. At that moment, as for any precise formulations of the authority
23 vested in the Deputy Prime Minister, there weren't any. I don't know when
24 the law on government and the law on ministries was passed, where this is
25 specified, that is.
1 Q. And I'm -- let me -- we may well move into that, and I apologise
2 for an ambiguous question. What I had in mind, actually, was what kind of
3 work did you undertake as Deputy Prime Minister? What did you do, who did
4 you meet with, what sorts of activities were you engaged in after you
5 assumed the position of Deputy Prime Minister?
6 A. Practically -- at that time, cabinet meetings were held
7 practically every day, so I immediately had to face many problems that the
8 government was dealing with. All sorts of problems, all sorts of types of
9 problems with different contents.
10 So there were consultations every day with the ministers, with
11 certain working groups that were preparing some regulations, with
12 practical problems due to the relocation of schools, universities, then
13 the need to establish a service that would control the border, like a
14 customs service. Then there were attempts made to establish contact with
15 the government of Serbia and the government of Yugoslavia because
16 companies from our territory had parts of their companies in their
17 territory. Now, what would happen to them?
18 There were efforts made for companies that were in our territory
19 to go on working, and so on and so forth.
20 Q. Did you attend sessions of the Assembly of the Serbian People?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did you -- you mentioned earlier you served on the Constitutional
23 Commission in the joint Assembly, did you continue to work on
24 constitutional issues and did you serve on any related commission in the
25 -- associated with the Bosnian Serb Assembly?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did you attend meetings in connection with that commission?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What, exactly, was that commission attempting to do, briefly?
5 A. Well, you see, there are written documents. I think that twice,
6 we adopted amendments to the Constitution. We discussed that, I mean
7 these materials, and I think that all of that was adopted. Everything
8 that was done was ultimately included in the text of the Constitution.
9 Q. Was there a chairperson of that commission?
10 A. Mr. Krajisnik was chairman as president of the Assembly.
11 Q. And who else was a member of the commission or attended the
12 meetings of the commission?
13 A. Karadzic attended some of the sessions. I know that Mr. Vojo
14 Maksimovic was there. I know that Professor - the name escapes me now,
15 and he was mentioned in that first telephone conversation - Gaso
16 Mijanovic. Then Dr. Radomir Lukic. As for MPs, I cannot remember now who
17 could have been there.
18 Q. Do you recall if Dr. Koljevic attended meetings of the commission?
19 A. I don't know now. Possibly, but believe me, I'm not sure.
20 Q. And again, let me direct your attention to a portion of your
21 previous discussion, one of your previous discussions with the Office of
22 the Prosecutor that can be found at page 17 of the March transcript. You
23 were discussing the commission and you indicated that, "... as a member of
24 the commission, we were often having discussion on amendments of the
25 Constitution and the presiding, the chairperson, Mr. Krajisnik. Very
1 often also Mr. Karadzic was present."
2 Then the conversation continues, and you say, "As I said, I recall
3 talking to, or discussing constitutional amendments on several occasions,
4 that Krajisnik was the chairperson most of the times, that Karadzic was
5 also present, Koljevic was also very often present ..."
6 Is that consistent with your recollection, sir, of those meetings
7 of the Constitutional Commission?
8 A. I have to tell you, Mr. Koljevic is someone who was a friend of my
9 parents, so every time he and I met, there was a lot of pleasant
10 sentiments involved and I was always very happy to meet him, to sit next
11 to him. Frequently, we would attend the same meetings, cabinet meetings
12 and so on. Now, as to whether he sat next to me in certain meetings of
13 the Constitutional Commission, I couldn't say, but it is probable.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trbojevic, could I ask you to carefully listen to
15 the question and to focus on answering that. The question was not whether
16 you were sitting next to Mr. Koljevic. That's a matter you introduced
17 yourself. The question was whether it's your recollection, as you stated
18 before, that Koljevic was also very often present in this committee. So
19 that's the question.
20 What you did, as a matter of fact, is explaining on your mutual
21 background why it would be so nice to sit next to him, and then you
22 answered the question you put yourself, whether you were sitting next to
23 him. The question was whether Mr. Koljevic was present often.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is it is very likely;
25 however, I cannot claim whether that was once, twice, or on more
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So there is no doubt, as I understand you, that
3 he was at least one time present, and whether it was more times, you do
4 not recollect.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. I note the time.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
9 We will adjourn until 11.00, not a quarter past 11.00 but 11.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
12 JUDGE ORIE: In respect of -- Mr. Tieger, will we hear any further
13 intercepts, or ...
14 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then I don't have to make any observation in that
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. TIEGER: Two quick matters before I do. First, I would note
19 that we were able to provide the Defence with the requested hyperlink
20 table during the break.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. TIEGER: A CD. And second, perhaps I could, at this time,
23 tender at least for identification the transcripts of the interviews we've
24 been referring to and it may be best, although I leave that to the
25 Registry, to have them marked as tab 115 rather than making a new exhibit.
1 MR. STEWART: I just express my thanks for the prompt provision
2 for the hyperlinked CD, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any further observation in respect of the
4 transcript of the interviews?
5 Then you said you have tab 115, that is -- yes, the same four
6 binders then. Yes, these are two interviews.
7 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour, one dated 23 March
8 2004 --
9 JUDGE ORIE: The Judges have them, so there's no need to again
10 distribute ...
11 Madam Registrar, a problem is they don't fit in the binder any
13 Madam Registrar has a better suggestion.
14 THE REGISTRAR: The interview dated 23 March 2004 will be P583A,
15 and the interview 4 May 2004 will be P583B.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
17 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, before the recess, you had mentioned, among other
19 things, the meetings that were taking place in Pale and had referred, I
20 believe, to cramped quarters or people being cramped and perhaps you can
21 describe the location and physical layout of the places where the members
22 of the Bosnian Serb authorities with whom you were meeting were located.
23 A. In the very beginning, there was a building. When one leaves Pale
24 on the way to Jahorina, it was on the right-hand side. It was a longish
25 building, a motel of the company whose seat was in Kikinda as a result of
1 which the motel itself was called Kikinda Motel.
2 There, in a room, in a small room, individual meetings took place
3 attended by several persons. That room, as far as I could see, was also
4 used by Mr. Koljevic and Mr. Krajisnik.
5 In addition to that, there was another larger room where a dozen
6 or so people could fit. So sometimes meetings attended by ten or so
7 people would take place. That lasted for a short period of time.
8 After that, we transferred to the Hotel Bistrica in Jahorina,
9 which is where the seat of the cabinet was. In that building, there was
10 sufficient room; there were several rooms which could accommodate minister
11 cabinets and there was also a cafeteria there. There was usually quite a
12 crowd there.
13 Then in another building called the Panorama Hotel, there were
14 offices where Mr. Krajisnik, Koljevic, Mrs. Plavsic, Mr. Karadzic, the
15 secretary of the Assembly were. And in addition, there was a small
16 conference room there as well. Occasionally, we would hold meetings in
17 that conference room, such as the meetings of the Constitutional
18 Commission and so on. That's what the situation was like.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please.
20 MR. TIEGER:
21 Q. And how far apart was the Hotel Bistrica than the Panorama Hotel
22 and Kikinda Motel?
23 A. Well, the Panorama is on the road going from Pale to Sarajevo.
24 That's where it is located, some 500 to 600 meters away. I never really
25 analysed this but definitely not more than a kilometre.
1 As for the distance between Kikinda and the Jahorina mount, that
2 is probably some 10 kilometres away. The Hotel Bistrica is 10 kilometres
4 Q. When you say, "We transferred to the Hotel Bistrica in Jahorina,"
5 who were you referring to as "we"?
6 A. I'm referring to Branko Djeric, myself, the secretary of the
7 government cabinet, Mr. Lokic, several ministers. Velibor Ostojic was
8 there, Ljubomir Zukovic, Bogdan Subotic, Petar Markovic, the minister of
9 finance. I don't know if I omitted some names. There were probably
10 others but I cannot remember them now.
11 Q. And do you recall approximately when that move took place?
12 A. Well, I couldn't say with precision. Probably in the course of
13 June 1992. I'm not sure about that, but I think in early summer.
14 Q. Now, during this period of time, Mr. Trbojevic, did you have an
15 opportunity to see the various figures you've mentioned interact with one
16 another at meetings and -- both formal and informal?
17 A. I don't know what you are referring to specifically. We were all
18 there in one building. I'm referring to the cabinet members now. We met
19 almost daily in various government meetings. And in preparation for
20 meetings, we naturally had contacts with each other. Contacts at various
21 levels; sometimes we would meet at lunch, sometimes we would have coffee
22 together, and sometimes we discussed such issues as who was going to what
23 location, what problems we had so that we could attempt to solve them
24 together. Everybody communicated with everybody else, if that's what
25 you're referring to.
1 Q. Now, you've mentioned many figures in the various organs of the
2 Bosnian Serb authorities. Can you tell the Court who the most powerful
3 and most important or most influential person or persons were among the
4 Bosnian Serb leaders?
5 A. The question is quite unspecific. You want me to give you my
6 assessment or my opinion about certain things that may or may not be in my
7 memory any longer.
8 Q. Let me ask the question this way then: In 1992, who, among the
9 people you mentioned, or anyone else that you haven't mentioned, exercised
10 power over the policies and organs of the Bosnian Serb authorities?
11 A. You see, the principles were set forth in the Constitution that
12 there were three branches of government: Judicial, executive, and
13 legislative, and that they were all separate from each other. It is my
14 assertion that all of us took the position that this is how it ought to
15 be, and this is what needs to be ensured. I claim that all of us in the
16 government wanted for the rule of law to prevail and in a situation where
17 the country was in chaos, where there was lack of communication lines and
18 so on, it was very difficult to ensure that.
19 Therefore, the Assembly was an organ that met frequently in those
20 war times. This organ did take position concerning the most important
21 issues, including the negotiations. The Assembly consisted mostly of the
22 MPs from the SDS, which means that the political authority was in the
23 hands of that party.
24 There were several MPs who were not members of the SDS. I,
25 myself, was on the SDS ticket but was not in their organs. So us who were
1 in that situation took on the role of some sort of the opposition, which
2 was quite impotent under the circumstances.
3 Now, as to the military organs, which represented the power, the
4 force, and if you're asking me about the authority of the police, which
5 originally was intended to ensure internal law and order, these are all
6 relative issues.
7 As for the government, we had the minister of defence there, who,
8 at least from the outside, didn't seem to have a lot of authority. Now,
9 as to his relations with the General Staff and the Supreme Command, this
10 is something that we, in the government, knew nothing about. There was
11 also minister of police, who had a certain amount of raw force at his
12 disposal, and either by way of regulations or by way of pragmatic
13 situation, he was in contact with other members of the cabinet but again
14 represented the force that was not under the control of the government.
15 Now, what could the various inspection organs do? Not much. The
16 parties didn't have a chance to file complaints and so on because this was
17 wartime. Therefore, the government turned into a firefighting service, so
18 to speak.
19 The Assembly was a forum where political life of Republika Srpska
20 unfolded. And as for what Krajisnik and Karadzic did in order to
21 formulate the position of the SDS, I really couldn't say anything about
22 that because I was not a member of the party and I did not personally
23 attend those meetings.
24 To what extent negotiations with international figures affected
25 the formulation of their official position, and to what extent that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 official position again was under the influence of the people from
2 Belgrade, I couldn't say anything about that. What I can say is that the
3 government of Republika Srpska had no cooperation with the government of
4 Yugoslavia or Serbia. They did not see the government of Republika Srpska
5 as a government. But the governors of central banks from one place and
6 the other would meet, you know, when there were issues to be discussed.
7 There were also some contacts concerning commerce.
8 Q. Let me stop you at this point and try to focus us a bit more.
9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask a question,
10 please. I'd like to know how many members there were in the Assembly.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I remember correctly, there were
12 82 MPs.
13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And you said, Witness, that they
14 were not all members of the SDS. How many members were not members of the
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact percentage,
17 but less than 10. Less than 10 MPs were not members of the SDS. If I'm
18 not mistaken, there were 7 of them.
19 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Those who were not members of the
20 SDS, were they able to air their views?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes. We were critical. We
22 expressed our proposals, which are reflected in the minutes; however, that
23 did not affect the decision making, the voting on various issues.
24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Did they have a total freedom of
25 expression, or if they were to air their views freely, did this trigger an
1 aggressive response?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say that there were
3 aggressive reactions. They were individual expressions that were,
4 perhaps, improper but I don't think there were any aggressive reactions.
5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] There were no penalties imposed?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Later on, they started
7 expelling certain individuals from the Assembly, but in this other period
8 that we are discussing now, there were no sanctions.
9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, was there a person or persons who were -- who was
12 or were regarded as the leader or leaders of the Bosnian Serbs?
13 A. That, again, is a matter of personal view.
14 Q. I'm asking you, Mr. Trbojevic, based on your position as deputy
15 minister, your many contacts with the various members of the Bosnian Serb
16 authorities, your discussions with them, with the leader or leaders of the
17 Bosnian Serbs.
18 A. I will tell you that the broadest view was that Karadzic was the
19 leader. In Serbian language, we have an expression, a term, Vozd, which
20 is an old Slavonic term for a leader. So this term Vozd was popular among
21 the people because it carries certain weight.
22 In Banja Luka, we had a chairman of the local SDS, Dr. - his name
23 escapes me now - who liked to refer to himself as the Krajina Vozd, the
24 Krajina leader, which, naturally, had no practical significance.
25 But if you ask me, based on what I heard and what I saw, who was
1 the leader among the leading figures in Republika Srpska, I think that
2 that term could only be applied to Karadzic.
3 Q. And was there any person with whom Dr. Karadzic was particularly
5 A. It is my impression that Dr. Karadzic had the closest, friendliest
6 relations with Dr. Koljevic. As for the efforts aimed at creating
7 Republika Srpska, conducting all the negotiations, all the affairs,
8 contacts, and relations with the Assembly, then if we are referring to
9 that, then naturally, he cooperated most frequently with Mr. Krajisnik.
10 I have to say that in their conduct and in their contacts - and
11 here I'm referring to Krajisnik and Karadzic - Krajisnik manifested in all
12 situations that Karadzic was the president, that he was the supreme
13 leader, and that he had the last say. He never allowed himself to oppose
14 Karadzic in front of other people, even when he did not share his views.
15 I think that he did his best in order to express any different views to
16 Karadzic when they were alone rather than in front of the Assembly. At
17 least, this is how I saw it.
18 Q. Would you say, based on your observations of the two of them, that
19 they were -- that they had a close relationship and worked closely
21 A. I think that they cooperated very closely. Now, as to whether
22 they were truly close, personally, I couldn't say. I don't think that
23 they were.
24 Q. May I direct your attention, Mr. Trbojevic, to a passage during
25 your second interview with the Office of the Prosecutor, in May, and I'm
1 referring to page 33 of that interview in the English translation, in
2 which you said in the middle portion of the page, it appears after the
3 first time your name is indicated in the left, "They were very close to
4 each other. I don't know what it was like before, but I know since that
5 trial and after that they were in detention, and since then, they became
6 like two bodies and one soul, and in that kind of community, it was my
7 impression that Krajisnik was like the major part of their basis."
8 What did you mean when you said, "They were like two bodies in one
10 A. I used a figure of speech there. The two of them had a certain
11 position, as far as we could tell. They had the same political position
12 and there was no divergence there between the two of them.
13 As for the political orientation and political activities and how
14 they ought to be guided, it is my belief that the two of them had an
15 absolutely identical position regarding that. And as far as that is
16 concerned, this is what I meant when I said that there were two bodies and
17 one soul.
18 Q. You also said that it was your impression that, "Krajisnik was
19 like the major part of their basis." Can you tell us what you meant by
20 that, please.
21 A. I don't know whether I put it that way exactly, the way it's
22 written there, and I don't know actually what is written there, but this
23 is what I meant ...
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trbojevic, if you feel more confident that we
25 check that on the tape, we'll do that. If there's really -- if you have
1 any hesitation as to this is what you said, we can check that on the basis
2 of the tape.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not hesitating. I'm not hesitating,
4 there is no need. I can explain this.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, perhaps you literally then confront
6 Mr. Trbojevic with the parts and tell him that this is a quote from the
7 translation made from the tape.
8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Perhaps that clarification
9 suggested by the Court is indeed quite helpful.
10 Q. I was reading to you from the transcript from the tape during
11 which questions were posed to you in English by the OTP representative and
12 you answered in B/C/S and it was translated by the interpreter.
13 Again, I was reading from the transcript of the interview, at page
14 33 of the May interview, where you said, "Since then, they became like two
15 bodies and one soul, and in that kind of community ..."
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, my attention is drawn to it. We'd like
17 the witness to be confronted with the whole of this paragraph and perhaps
18 I'll read it to you slowly, Mr. Trbojevic.
19 The question put to you by Mr. Margetts was: "Your observations
20 at the time was that Krajisnik was more organised and an effective
21 decision maker." That is what is at least said to be a question, whether
22 it was a question is another matter.
23 Then you responded: "Yes, I was convinced in that. They were
24 very close to each other. I don't know what was like before, but I know
25 since that trial and after that they were in detention, and since then
1 they became like two bodies and one soul, and in that kind of community,
2 it was my impression that Krajisnik was, like, the major part of their
3 basis. I had opportunity to see, like, when Krajisnik would have some
4 remark, Karadzic would change his attitude. I didn't see the vice versa.
5 It was nothing ... It was reference to nothing important, but that is
6 something that makes ... that shows the relation between people."
7 That is recorded as your answer.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I'm saying today as
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. Between the two of them, Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik, were you
12 able to observe who was the more organised of the two, who was the more
13 effective of the two?
14 MR. STEWART: They are two different words, two different concepts
15 and, therefore, two different questions.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I think -- well, let's -- put the
17 question as you want it but not two different questions in one.
18 MR. TIEGER:
19 Q. Were you able to observe who was the more organised of the two,
20 Mr. Trbojevic?
21 A. I said during that interview, and it's not hard for me to confirm
22 it once again: Mr. Karadzic seemed like a totally disorganised person; a
23 person who does not take notes, a person who does not collect documents, a
24 person who has no system in his work. At least, that's what I saw and
25 that's my assessment.
1 Mr. Krajisnik, though, is a person who writes down what he agreed
2 upon, with who, what he planned, what he wants to resolve. So he shows
3 that there is something systematic in his attitude towards the work that
4 he does. That is why I had the impression, that is my deep conviction,
5 that Mr. Krajisnik, compared to Mr. Karadzic, is far more organised,
6 systematic, more reliable if you agree on something with him, and that
7 would be it.
8 Q. Based on your observations of the two of them as you described
9 them, including the opportunity to see Mr. Krajisnik making a remark and
10 Mr. Karadzic changing his attitude, including Mr. Krajisnik's
11 organisational qualities in comparison to Mr. Karadzic, who appeared to
12 you, between the two of them, to be the leader, if one could be said to be
13 the leader rather than the other?
14 A. There was no dilemma there. Karadzic was the supreme chieftain,
15 if I can put it that way. If there was anybody who was in charge, it was
16 Radovan Karadzic. There was not the least bit of a dilemma there.
17 Q. So can you explain, then, exactly what you meant when you said --
18 and I'm referring now to page 22 and 23: "My personal impression is and
19 many other people would agree with my feelings that, in the unity of the
20 two of them, Krajisnik was much better organised, much more efficient, and
21 if anybody was a leader, it was Krajisnik who was leading Karadzic."
22 A. That is my assessment of their private relationship, if I can put
23 it that way. The relationship in which the two of them are not the
24 president of the republic and the president of the Assembly, they are
25 people who socialise, they both have their own jobs, and in this
1 relationship, in my deep conviction, Krajisnik was more superior because
2 he was more systematic, as I said. He would stand by what he would
3 promise. He would prepare what needed to be prepared. And that would,
4 indeed, be prepared most probably.
5 Whereas that was not the case with Karadzic. If you agreed on
6 something with Karadzic, that meant that you'd have to remind him of it,
7 that you'd have to see whether he actually did initiate something, whether
8 it had gotten to a point where it was supposed to be, and so on and so
10 What I meant was the relationship between the two of them. It is
11 my deep conviction that Krajisnik was more thorough, more focused, and
12 vis-a-vis the outside world, Karadzic was someone who had a charisma, a
13 charm, the ability to manipulate masses, if you will, now that we're
14 talking about my impressions, that is.
15 Q. Let me ask you, then, about their relationship with others within
16 the Bosnian Serb authorities. What was the extent of the authority that
17 Mr. Karadzic -- or Dr. Karadzic or Mr. Krajisnik had in connection with
18 the deputies of the Assembly?
19 A. Well, I don't know. I can't really say. There was a sentence,
20 for instance: "He is Karadzic's man." And then there would be another
21 sentence: "He is Krajisnik's man." Now, who belonged to who is something
22 people could not know, or rather, I did not have the possibility to know
23 because I was not within this internal system of the Serb Democratic
24 Party. You see, that pertained to members of the SDS, members of
25 municipal committees who'd go to Pale, who'd talk to both of them on most
1 occasions; sometimes separately, sometimes together.
2 Now, who trusted one of them more and the other one less and who
3 cooperated with one of them more and with the other one less is something
4 that I cannot really tell you.
5 Q. At page 8 of the May interview, Mr. Trbojevic, you said -- and
6 again this appears in the first -- after the first specific reference
7 where your initials appear, that would be the second full paragraph,
8 second sentence: "It is a fact that ..."
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'd like to confront the witness with the
10 -- with his statement then in the context. I'll read it to you.
11 You were asked about in 90 per cent effective control by
12 Krajisnik, or at least the vast majority of the deputies. Your answer
13 was: "I don't know how did we understand each other, then. It is a fact
14 that Krajisnik and Karadzic had something what was like very close to the
15 absolute authority. There were discussions at the sessions, at the
16 Assembly, and there were different attitudes and there were
17 confrontations, but when it came like to final attitudes and getting the
18 decisions and I know that there wasn't a single time like that, for
19 example, what two of them would suggest, that Assembly would reject.
20 There was characteristical example, when there was a discussion about
21 signing the peace treaty that Karadzic signed."
22 And then you further explain how that happened in the Assembly,
23 whether they would -- it says "verify," but I take it that it is "ratify,"
24 but at least what was signed on the ship.
25 That's what Mr. Tieger is confronting you with now.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I explained it there what I meant by
2 that. So what are you interested in now?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, perhaps first of all, we are interested in
4 whether you stand by what you said at that time.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that that is exactly the way
6 it was.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'll just draw your attention to it that it's
8 not exactly, to say it very gentle, that you did not phrase your position
9 exactly the same way earlier during your testimony in this courtroom. But
10 perhaps that saves a lot of time.
11 I'd like to confront you with another part of that same statement.
12 We find that on page 10. You were talking about Djeric rejecting
13 something, and then Mr. Margetts said did Djeric, did he reject the fact
14 that his government could not set policy or did he reject the policies
15 that were set by others for the government to implement, or both? Your
16 answer was, "Most likely, it would be both."
17 The next question was: "And who set those policies?"
18 Your answer: "As I ... As I said before, it was by Krajisnik and
19 by Karadzic and that went to the party and went through the Assembly and
20 through the other organs."
21 Then Mr. Margetts said: "So, you are describing the situation
22 where Krajisnik and Karadzic effectively had absolute authority or power
23 in a practical sense over the Presidency, Assembly, and the party."
24 You responded by, "Yes."
25 Do you still stand by the answers you gave in May 2004?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. If I could turn your attention to the first interview, at page 30.
5 The question was asked at the top of the page after a discussion about who
6 -- first there had been a discussion about who Subotic, Mandic and
7 Stanisic reported to or didn't report to, and then you were asked by
8 Mr. Margetts: "So operationally you think the Ministry of Internal
9 Affairs, Ministry of Defence, and to some extent Ministry of Justice was
10 being run by Karadzic and Krajisnik?"
11 And you responded: "Yes, the police and the army definitely. And
12 when justice is concerned, Karadzic was in capacity of his authority, the
13 function he had was making decision of appointment. So, practically,
14 justice was also in his hands."
15 Do you stand by that answer as well, sir?
16 A. There's not the slightest bit of dilemma that Karadzic appointed
17 people to positions in the judiciary. It depended on him who would become
18 a judge or prosecutor or who would not. The fact remains that this did go
19 to the Assembly and that the Assembly would confirm it, but people were
20 actually appointed by Karadzic signing this appointment, especially as far
21 as judges were concerned.
22 Now, as far as authority was concerned, Mr. Margetts formulated
23 the question as best suits him. I would not claim that I was a witness of
24 this absolute power and its exercise. I explained to him that all talks
25 about peace negotiations and all decisions that were reached by the
1 Assembly were indeed at the Assembly. Before that, they were probably
2 discussed by the organs of the SDS.
3 I explained that this could not move if this agreed upon by
4 Karadzic or Karadzic and Krajisnik, and perhaps somebody else too, maybe
5 Mrs. Plavsic and maybe Mr. Koljevic, but I did not say the words "absolute
6 power" as Mr. Margetts did in his question.
7 Now, how the decision was made as for the functioning of the
8 military, the army, and then part of the police that, in cases of
9 mobilisation, would become part of the army, that is something that the
10 minister of defence would have to know too.
11 JUDGE ORIE: May I please stop you.
12 I'm a bit confused as to what question you're actually answering
13 to at this moment because in the last question and what was put to you, I
14 did not hear anything about absolute power, whereas it seems that you're
15 commenting on words used by Mr. Margetts during the interview about
16 absolute power.
17 It might be that you are still responding to the previous
18 question, or questions, especially where the words were used "absolute
19 authority." Is that how I have to understand your answer?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I heard, the Prosecutor
21 read Mr. Margetts's question and he used the words "absolute power" in
22 terms of the functioning of the judiciary, the police, and the army. That
23 was the last question.
24 JUDGE ORIE: The words used were -- let me just check that. My
25 recollection is that he used for Mr. Karadzic the words that "justice was
1 in the hands of ..."
2 MR. TIEGER: I would be happy to read the question and answer
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. The question I previously read to you, and the answer,
7 Mr. Trbojevic, was as follows: "Question: So operationally, you think
8 the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Ministry of Defence, and to some
9 extent the Ministry of Justice was being run by Karadzic and Krajisnik."
10 Your answer was: "Yes, the police and the army definitely. And when
11 justice is concerned, Karadzic was in capacity of his authority, the
12 function he had was making decision of appointment. So, practically, the
13 justice was also in his hands."
14 Was that an accurate response to the question, Mr. Trbojevic?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. And you mentioned Mrs. Plavsic in one of your responses and you
17 had mentioned Mr. Koljevic earlier. Let me ask you first if there was a
18 difference in the authority of Dr. Karadzic and Krajisnik on the one hand
19 and the authority of Mrs. Plavsic and anyone else with whom she might be
20 associated on the other; and if so, how great was that difference?
21 A. Well, again, that's a question of my assessment as a spectator. I
22 know that we were preparing a law on the implementation of the
23 Constitution, and what we envisaged there was that before it became
24 possible to elect a president of the republic, there would be a Presidency
25 and that it would consist of two members. The people who were meant were
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Mrs. Plavsic and Dr. Koljevic. They were the people who were elected to
2 the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina before the war. So formally, it was
3 considered that they should be the ones who would be the top instance in
4 Republika Srpska.
5 In practice, this was changed. The law was changed, Karadzic was
6 elected, et cetera, et cetera. And now that you're asking me about
7 authority, it is my deep conviction, most sincerely, that Karadzic had its
8 own authority that was high above everybody else, Krajisnik's was below
9 his, and Koljevic and Mrs. Plavsic were leaders of a second or third
10 degree, if I can put it that way. This was the usual assessment made by
11 people who had the opportunity of seeing this.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would like to put a question to you.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] We are just going to change area
15 a little bit and move to a slightly different subject. I would like to
16 know whether you felt that the Assembly was playing an effective role.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was not a decisive role.
18 The Assembly was the venue where practically all topics were brought up
19 and all dilemmas were aired, all topics that were discussed. But I think
20 the decisions were made under a great deal of pressure from the Serb
21 Democratic Party, and of course Krajisnik and Karadzic were its proponents
22 by the very nature of things.
23 So it can be said that the Assembly was the body that carried out
24 its legislative powers in accordance with the policy charted by the Serb
25 Democratic Party. This was publicly formulated, if I can put it that way.
1 This was the situation as it was and it was opened -- it was obvious.
2 JUDGE ORIE: For those who are not familiar with the Dutch testing
3 system, this kind of sirens, that's always at exactly 12.00 on the first
4 Monday of the month, so no one has to be worried about it. It will take
5 approximately one minute, but I think we can proceed.
6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I am referring to what you said
7 in your statement, your first statement, on page 20 and 23, you say as
8 follows: [In English] Krajisnik knew very well that his delegates will
9 vote for an issue that he was interested in. Krajisnik was formally with
10 the presiding the chairperson of the Assembly. He was the one who was
11 evaluating the feelings and the climate among the delegates. He was the
12 one who would recess or stop the session if he had a feeling that the
13 climate is not right for the decision to be made the way he felt they
14 should be...
15 [Interpretation] I would like to know what you mean by this, sir.
16 Could you please comment on this.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I wanted to
18 say. I described that example involving the verification of an agreement
19 that Karadzic had signed. We gathered in the hotel called Jahorina at
20 Pale, or whatever the hotel was called, and this was the meeting of the MP
21 club and we had to discuss whether the Assembly would verify or ratify
22 that agreement the following day. One of the MPs asked that the agreement
23 be copied and distributed so that we could see what is it that Karadzic
24 had signed, and then Krajisnik said, "No need to do that. The key points
25 had been taken out of the text and distributed, which is enough in order
1 to inform everybody about the contents." Because naturally, these issues
2 had been discussed earlier.
3 This was a practical approach. So the session of the Assembly
4 started, we entered the room and debated for two days and two nights, and
5 if you hear some dissonant voices to the effect that it ought to be
6 verified, Karadzic, who had already signed that, could not very well come
7 out and say, "I made a mistake." And when it became a little bit
8 suspicious as to how many MPs actually asked that it be verified,
9 Krajisnik said, "Let us stop with the session and once again meet in the
10 caucus." This was already 2.00 a.m. We met in another room and Krajisnik
11 said if we were to postpone this, if we do not actually want to adopt a
12 decision, let us make copies, distribute them to the MPs and postpone this
13 and then meet at a later time, and then postpone it again and then meet
14 again, and then one realised that this was all actually a game.
15 First they didn't want to make copies, but rather, wanted to adopt
16 the decision, and then afterwards, they said, "Okay. Let's make the
17 copies and then postpone the session and decide later on." So this was
18 all just a situation to which I reacted perhaps improperly and left the
19 session, but this was just an example showing that things could be
20 manipulated if the discussion took a wrong course and it could be
21 terminated and then debated further in the club, and then rescheduled the
23 I don't think that this is unusual, that this is an unusual
24 practice in various collective bodies, but this is what we discussed.
25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 MR. TIEGER:
2 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, you mentioned Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic as
3 elected representatives to the Presidency of the Socialist Republic of
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina who later became part of the Presidency of
5 Republika Srpska. When you first arrived in Pale in mid or latter part of
6 May, who were the members of the Presidency?
7 A. I couldn't say that now with any precision because I know that
8 there was a law on implementing the Constitution setting forth that the
9 two of them were the Presidency, or members of the Presidency. Later on,
10 that was amended and it was stated that the Presidency would have three
11 members, and then Karadzic was elected to that three-member Presidency as
12 a member. And now as to whether they formulated that he should be the
13 third member of the Presidency or he was appointed to that function by the
14 Assembly, I really don't remember that. But initially, in the beginning,
15 it was the two of them who constituted the Presidency. I don't remember
16 exactly now because the law was later amended, but I think that it must
17 have been the two of them.
18 I know that we said that the two of them were the only ones who
19 were, in fact, elected in the general elections and that that ought to be
20 preserved, and this pertained to Koljevic and Plavcic.
21 Q. And subsequent to that three-person Presidency, was the
22 Presidency, the membership of the Presidency expanded further in 1992?
23 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know when that decision was taken.
24 I remember I discussed once with Branko Djeric, when he came in the
25 morning to the government meetings, he said that he was in the building
1 where Karadzic, Krajisnik, Plavsic, and Koljevic had offices, and since
2 all of them were presidents of certain bodies, they were frequently to as
3 presidents, president of this and president of this.
4 Now, as to when the decision was taken to transform this into a
5 three-member Presidency, I really couldn't tell you. The decision must
6 exist somewhere. I personally did not take part in preparing that
7 document and do not remember it specifically.
8 Q. And my question didn't pertain to the three-person Presidency
9 which you had already mentioned but to whether or not that three-person
10 Presidency was then expanded.
11 A. Well, that's what I meant, in fact.
12 JUDGE ORIE: May I just -- Mr. Trbojevic, you give long answers,
13 not very much focusing on the question. The question was clearly whether
14 the three-person Presidency expanded later in 1992.
15 You said, "I do not know when that decision was taken." First of
16 all, we'd like to hear from you whether you know about a decision. Could
17 you -- do you remember a decision which expanded the three-person
18 Presidency into a more than three-person Presidency?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm doing my best to explain the
20 actual situation. I said that I did not personally participate in the
21 adoption of that decision, in formulating its text, therefore, I don't
22 know when it was signed and adopted.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You are constantly answering a question which was not
24 specifically put to you, certainly not by me. That is when the decision
25 was taken. I first want to establish that such a decision was taken.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know that that decision was
2 adopted. I particularly didn't know when it was adopted. I heard from
3 Branko Djeric that it was going to the -- that he was going to the
4 Presidency sessions, and based on that decision, he was supposed to be a
5 member of that expanded Presidency.
6 This is how indirectly I heard about this term "expanded
8 JUDGE ORIE: So you were told by Mr. Djeric that he was a member
9 of an expanded Presidency; is that a correct understanding?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said he was going to attend the
11 Presidency sessions, that he had to attend them, that he wasn't pleased
12 about that because these meetings always took place at night, late in the
13 day, and so on. I knew that he attended those meetings.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know about anyone else, apart from the three
15 members that was Karadzic, Plavsic, and Koljevic, apart from Mr. Djeric,
16 to be present during this meeting, any other person which, in addition to
17 the persons I mentioned, would attend?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who attended the
20 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know whether only the four persons mentioned
21 did attend these sessions?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. When the Presidency was expanded, who were the members,
1 irrespective of who may have attended the meeting, of the expanded
3 A. I don't know how come I know that, but I think that the expanded
4 Presidency consisted of Karadzic, Krajisnik, Koljevic, Plavsic, and
6 Q. And do you recall the date on which that expansion -- the
7 approximate date on which that expansion of the Presidency occurred?
8 A. I really don't know.
9 Q. I draw your attention to page 29 of the second interview in which
10 you discuss some extracts from the Constitution. You explain in that
11 answer some of the things you had been mentioning here, mentioning that
12 the function, on the seventh line of your last answer on that page, that
13 "... the function of the president will be conducted by Presidency of,
14 like which will have three members." Then as your answer continues, you
15 say, "And the other law is like some kind of amendment to law from June
16 1992. They are now bringing like a new organ. They change ... they
17 change the Presidency and they say that during the, like, war conditions
18 that Presidency will be made wider with President of the national Assembly
19 and the president of the government. I think that is now the most
20 important decision."
21 Does that refresh your recollection, Mr. Trbojevic, about when the
22 Presidency was expanded to five members?
23 A. Mr. Margetts probably showed these regulations to me. We went
24 over them and this is how I came to read them.
25 Q. So if I understand your answer correctly, and please correct me if
1 I'm wrong, you knew from Mr. Djeric that the Presidency had been expanded
2 but when you were answering the question in court, you didn't recall the
3 date but based on your review of the laws, you -- during the time of the
4 interview, you understood that the expansion took place in June of 1992.
5 A. If that's what is stated in the text of that decision, the text of
6 that enactment, then that must be how it was.
7 Q. Did you or Mr. Djeric have a view about why he was included in the
8 expanded Presidency in addition to Mr. Krajisnik?
9 A. I truly never analysed that, never thought about that.
10 Q. Well, have you expressed the view before that Mr. Djeric was
11 included in the Presidency so that when Mr. Krajisnik was added to the
12 Presidency, people wouldn't comment on that in particular?
13 A. I don't know what you have in mind.
14 Q. Well, I'm actually referring to page 31 of your interview in May,
15 where you were asked why you thought the five-member Presidency was
16 formed. That's the last question and answer on that page.
17 You say: "I don't know how that happened. I have ... I was very
18 sure that even this three-member Presidency was functioning only based on
19 authority of Radovan Karadzic and authority of Momcilo Krajisnik, who was
20 not member of the Presidency at that time, although ... although formerly
21 he did not have those authorisations as the President of the Assembly.
22 That's why I think that there was a possibility to include him into this
23 organ, which would give him some legitimacy as a part of the supreme body
24 ... supreme organ of power, because the president of a republic, by its
25 function, is closer to executive powers than legislative powers. And I
1 believe that Djeric was included into that Presidency, probably in order
2 to avoid people thinking why Krajisnik was there too. Because it ... or
3 it would be logical that the president of government would enter that kind
4 of organ, because he is executive organ and he should have the greatest
5 number of information at his disposal. But knowing the relation between
6 them, he was not included into the Presidency in order to be given status
7 of, like, being part of that highest level of power. I believe it was
8 only for a reason that ... when Krajisnik entered there as a
9 representative of legislative power, so this way they also say that Djeric
10 as executive power could do it, would enter, too."
11 Does that refresh your recollection, Mr. Trbojevic, about such a
12 view and is that an accurate reflection of your understanding of why the
13 Presidency was expanded in the manner it was?
14 A. This was obviously one of the thoughts I had. I have no ability
15 of proving that this is actually how it was. I have no evidence to prove
16 that. This view is valid, that there is no room for a president of the
17 Assembly in that kind of an organ, whereas it is logical to have the Prime
18 Minister a member of that organ.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trbojevic, may I ask you one question in that
20 respect. This analysis or these thoughts, you just explained to us that
21 they were rather theoretical about logic, what was logical, what was not
22 logical. Are there any circumstances which supported your view, were
23 there anything apart from your own thoughts that supported your analysis
24 of Mr. Djeric becoming part of the Presidency just in order to make people
25 not think the wrong things, as far as I understood you?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said just a moment ago that I have
2 no way of proving this. This is just one of my thoughts. Perhaps it was
3 developed as a result of my discussion with Djeric who was not happy about
4 becoming a member of the Presidency and having to attend the meetings.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's exactly why I put this question to you because
6 "prove" does not mean -- if I have no proof of something - and I'm now
7 talking about normal life and not about being in a courtroom - if I have
8 no proof of something, then sometimes I, nevertheless, may have some
9 knowledge of circumstances which would support an idea, although not prove
10 an idea. So what I'm asking you is whether you had any circumstances in
11 mind or knowledge of any circumstances that would support your analysis of
12 why Mr. Djeric was included in the expansion of the Presidency, although
13 perhaps not proving it.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have nothing specific to offer
15 you. The fact is that they had offices in the same building, Krajisnik,
16 Karadzic, Koljevic, Plavsic, they had offices next to each other. They
17 could have discussed issues whenever they wanted. The mere creation of
18 that organ seemed unnecessary.
19 Therefore, what I said is just one of the comments concerning
21 JUDGE ORIE: You say, "The mere creation of that organ seemed
22 unnecessary" Because, as far as I understand, you said they were so close
23 in terms of their offices, that they would not need an organ, well, to
24 have their conversations.
25 Let me put it to you in a different way: If you have this kind of
1 cooperation or conversations, et cetera, that it would be proper to
2 formalise them.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could agree with that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I have a question for the
7 In your evidence on page 29, you are referring to the expansion of
8 the Presidency, you stated: "[In English] I think that this is the most
9 important decision." [Interpretation] What have you got in mind with
10 this? Why was this the most important decision? Do you think that it was
11 an important decision because it was a change in the structure which was
12 most unconstitutional or is it because of the consequences of that
13 decision; and if any, what were those consequences?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Initially, it seemed to me that it
15 was unnecessary. We were all in the same building, next to each other.
16 We would see each other several times a day. And now all of a sudden,
17 here we are creating an organ which is supposed to formalise our meetings,
18 and we all have the duties that we had; therefore, I thought that that was
19 superfluous, unnecessary. In addition to that, it was not in accordance
20 with the Constitution, so one wondered why would we violate constitutional
21 provisions even though it was wartime. The consequences themselves, what
22 decisions were adopted by that organ, I have to tell you that I did not
23 give it much thought. I did not analyse whether that would bring about
24 any changes in the policy pursued and in the work.
25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Let me just repeat my question.
1 Why have you stated, "I think that this is the most important decision"?
2 Why have you said that?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know which section this
4 referred to, this sentence that I said. Really, I don't know.
5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] We are talking about the point in
6 time in which you say, "They changed the Presidency [In English] and they
7 say that during the war, the Presidency will be made wider with president
8 of the national Assembly and the president of the national -- of the
9 government. I think that it is now the most important decision."
10 [Interpretation] I just would like to know why you said that.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I did not say that. I
12 think that must be a mistake in the text because during that interview I
13 said that that Presidency, in real terms, did not have any consequences of
14 its establishment.
15 As for what was actually happening, and I must say that I did not
16 see any of that, and therefore, I simply cannot agree with what it says
17 there, unless this was taken out of context, unless it referred to
18 something else.
19 As for the decision to establish the Presidency, I certainly could
20 not have said that that was the most important decision because, actually,
21 it just remained on paper, nothing more than that.
22 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, we have to have a break now.
24 In view of the last answer of the witness where he says, there
25 must have been a mistake in the transcript or in the translation, I would
1 like you to do two things: First of all, to provide the witness whenever
2 possible, not through direct contact, but with the relevant page of the
3 B/C/S, if there is a B/C/S version of the --
4 MR. TIEGER: There is.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 Mr. Trbojevic, you will be presented with a B/C/S copy of the page
7 you are just confronted with and we would then like to hear from you
8 whether you still take the position that it has been misinterpreted. If
9 so, we'll check on the basis of the tapes whether this is supported by the
10 recording, and we could do that by having the original tapes being
12 We will adjourn until five minutes to 1.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I do understand that there was some
16 hesitation to give the witness just the one page. The only thing the
17 Chamber had in mind was to verify to what extent the complaint about
18 translation or recording was correct or not, and the witness has been
19 confronted with two or three lines, and certainly you would need the
20 context because he -- I think he put that in a certain context which, as
21 far as the Chamber is concerned, does not necessarily lead to giving him
22 the full copy of all of it but at the same time, we're not opposed to it
23 either, but perhaps -- I didn't hear from the Defence any observation in
24 this respect, but I'd rather limit it to the relevant portion, even if
25 you'd say that the line of questioning, if that would be two or three or
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 four pages, that's fine as well.
2 MR. TIEGER: No, I understand, Your Honour, and I agree and I
3 thought that is what the Court was indicating but because there was at
4 least some room for ambiguity, I thought it was safer to do otherwise. I
5 have those portions here if the Court would wish to do it now.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Not necessarily now. I think the witness has
7 answered the question. Part of his answer was that in the translation his
8 words were not reflected as he has said them. He could read that page
9 over during this afternoon and this evening and then report to us tomorrow
10 and see whether there's any need to further clarify the matter by hearing
11 the audiotapes.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, in connection with your responses about the
15 expanded Presidency, I believe you mentioned something about seeing it in
16 some respects as superfluous or unnecessary and you mentioned the regular
17 meetings that were taking place even before the expanded Presidency was
19 Let me direct your attention, if I may, to a portion of your
20 second interview, found at page 32 at the bottom. We were discussing the
21 same issue. And the question refers you to the appointment of Krajisnik
22 and Djeric to the expanded Presidency. And you said -- the question was:
23 "You said that the appointment of Krajisnik to the expanded Presidency
24 meant that he formerly held a position with an executive function; is that
1 I want to pause for a moment and hopefully give the interpreters
2 time to locate it in the B/C/S transcript.
3 Then you said: "Yes it is. I yesterday said that his status and
4 before entering this wider Presidency, it was the same. And functioning
5 of Krajisnik and Karadzic even before entering Presidency was of the same
6 level, of the same power and of the same base."
7 The rest of your answer doesn't directly address that issue,
8 although it touches upon it, so I'll stop there.
9 Was -- did that answer given in the May interview, Mr. Trbojevic,
10 capture the sense in which you were indicating your feeling that the
11 formal expansion of the Presidency was superfluous or unnecessary?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about the
14 institution of Crisis Staffs. First of all, were you familiar with the
15 existence of Crisis Staffs in the municipalities?
16 A. Well, in different forms, yes.
17 Q. And to what extent did you understand that the Crisis Staffs held
18 power in the municipalities?
19 A. I have to say that the government, as an institution, that it did
20 not have any direct insight into the work of these Crisis Staffs.
21 Actually, hardly any. I had the opportunity of talking to people in
22 Sokolac, and on one occasion, I toured the municipalities in Herzegovina.
23 I visited Nevesinje, Gacko, Bileca, and Trebinje, and let me say that this
24 is some personal experience that I had in this regard: We saw a situation
25 there, that the war was already over in a particular town, or perhaps some
1 war operations were over, a number of people left as refugees, another
2 group of people came to town as refugees again, so these Crisis Staffs
3 actually had to deal with the issue of where to put up the people who
4 came, how to feed them, how to have at least part of the economy
5 functioning, how to ensure that the school operates; all the regular needs
6 of a town or a community that were suspended due to the war.
7 The government would be asked to send fuel by way of assistance
8 for vehicles, and food for hospitals, and now the question is how the
9 administrative authorities functioned. Of course, there is the problem of
10 response to call-up by conscripts and also the problem of the return of
11 conscripts to town. Can both happen?
12 Then there is the major problem of safety and security because
13 soldiers return from the front with weapons and the question was how to
14 ensure the safety, the vital safety of citizens, because soldiers who are
15 armed and outside their units are dangerous anywhere. So that was ...
16 Q. Let me turn our attention for a moment away from the -- whatever
17 the specific problems that may have been faced or addressed by Crisis
18 Staffs to a more basic question of whether or not the Crisis Staffs were
19 the power in the municipalities.
20 A. As far as the Crisis Staffs are concerned, there was some kind of
21 instruction that was sent out in terms of the establishment of Crisis
22 Staffs. Crisis Staffs were envisaged as organs that were supposed to make
23 it possible to have the legal authorities function. So the Crisis Staff
24 was supposed to be led by the president of the municipality, and the
25 president of the executive board of the municipality was supposed to be on
1 the Crisis Staff. So those were supposed to be the most responsible
2 people who would be dealing with the most pressing problems, and the
3 assemblymen of the municipality were supposed to try to get the Assembly
4 together as soon as possible so that the system would start operating, if
5 I can put it that way.
6 So if you look at the concrete situation, as for the resolving of
7 concrete problems, well, yes, the Crisis Staff did have the authority to
8 decide on matters that actually fell under the jurisdiction of the
9 Assembly. Also, to see how different positions would be allocated within
10 the municipality, but actually, they were not supposed to be any kind of
11 form of government, they were supposed to be there until the regular
12 authorities would start functioning.
13 Q. And during the time the Crisis Staffs existed, was power in the
14 municipalities vested in them?
15 A. I'm saying that they were the mainstays of practical authority
16 until the municipal Assemblies could start meeting again. No one ever
17 thought that it should be envisaged nor was it envisaged that Crisis
18 Staffs should have any kind of authority in terms of using the military or
19 the police. In many Crisis Staffs, there were members of military
20 commands and police structures only for the reasons that I mentioned a
21 while ago; namely, to coordinate the sending of conscripts to the front
22 line, then that the unit should make it possible to have conscripts sent
23 back home, and also that these conscripts should not move around, armed
24 and posing a danger to the population. Then the police would have to
25 adapt their activities to the military units because part of police also
1 had some of their activities under the military units involved.
2 Q. And from whom -- from which bodies or which individuals did the
3 Crisis Staffs take direction? To whom were they answerable?
4 A. I've said that the government sent this instruction on the
5 establishment of Crisis Staffs, if I remember correctly, sometime in the
6 month of April, before I came to Pale. It is a fact, though, that we as
7 members of the government, had poor communication links with the
8 municipalities, partly due to the war operations, partly due to the lack
9 of communications equipment.
10 Afterwards, the regulations changed. A decision was passed on the
11 establishment of War Presidencies, then War Commissioner's offices. I
12 don't know which one came first, but if I'm not mistaken, these decisions
13 were taken by the Presidency.
14 The first one was poorly formulated. The legislative and
15 executive were brought together within the Crisis Staffs - that was
16 rectified later - but the concept was supposed to be as follows. I mean,
17 the concept that the government insisted on was the one I explained to you
18 just now.
19 Q. Were the Crisis Staffs party organs?
20 A. Well, they weren't party organs. I think that the party was
21 supposed to send people to the Crisis Staffs. Now, the president of the
22 municipality would be a person from the party, then the president of the
23 Executive Board would be a person from the party as well. So there was no
24 doubt that the Serb Democratic Party had a dominant influence.
25 Q. In your second interview, at page 69 of the English translation,
1 you say at the very bottom of that page: "So practically the Crisis Staff
2 was a branch of the party."
3 And I'll read the question that preceded that and the full answer.
4 The question was: "So, they had power in the municipalities and you said
5 they were answerable to Karadzic and Krajisnik. So, what was your
6 observation in respect of ability of Karadzic and Krajisnik to effect
7 action in municipalities?"
8 You said: "So, they had like absolute connections both, with
9 deputies and with the party in the field. Like, in the Crisis Staff, you
10 had people who were part of the party, part of the ... were also deputies
11 and were also members of the board of the party. So practically, the
12 Crisis Staff was a branch of the party."
13 Was that a correct answer, sir?
14 A. That's what I said just now too.
15 Q. You mentioned the police in connection with your answer concerning
16 Crisis Staffs and I'd like to ask you some questions about the Ministry of
17 the Interior, if I may.
18 If I can turn your attention to a portion of tab 106, the 22nd
19 session of the Assembly.
20 MR. TIEGER: That's the beginning of binder 4, Your Honours.
21 Q. Let me first turn your attention to an excerpt from page 48 of
22 that Assembly session in the English translation, which I believe can be
23 found at approximately page 49 in the B/C/S translation -- page 47 of the
24 B/C/S translation, at the top of the page.
25 What you said then was: "However, when it comes to the police, I
1 have already said this at one meeting, I don't know if it was the
2 Assembly, but I think that the law on internal affairs has set the
3 relation between the minister for internal affairs and the Prime Minister
4 in the wrong way, the same way that the law on army excluded the minister
5 for defence from the relations with the state ..."
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, we have not found it yet. You said page
7 47 of the B/C/S translation and page, was it 48 in the English?
8 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, that would be the fourth paragraph;
9 the second paragraph from the bottom. It's the paragraph that begins, "We
10 have tried to make schedules ..." and then continues. I began reading at
11 the second sentence of that paragraph.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 Could you please restart.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. "However, when to comes to the police, I have already said this at
16 one meeting, I don't know if it was the Assembly, but I think that the
17 law on internal affairs has set the relation between the minister for
18 internal affairs and the Prime Minister in the wrong way, the same way
19 that the law on army excluded the minister for defence from the relations
20 with the state Presidency." And I pause, Your Honour, we might want to
21 check the translation on that. "The same is in the law on internal
22 affairs, the minister of internal affairs is directed at the state
23 Presidency, not at the Prime Minister."
24 Mr. Trbojevic, did that express your concern about who the
25 minister of interior was reporting to and who the minister of interior was
1 not reporting to?
2 A. That's right.
3 Q. Before I continue, let me ask you -- direct your attention to
4 remarks by Mr. Djeric at the same Assembly session, found at page 17 of
5 the English translation in approximately the middle. And at page 12, I
6 believe, of the B/C/S translation, toward the top.
7 Mr. Djeric speaking and saying: "Further, if the Prime Minister
8 has free hands to make quick changes and if someone else takes the right
9 to insist on some ministers, then, gentlemen, he needs to take
10 responsibility for their work. So far, not a single member of the state
11 leadership has done that, but they always say it is the government's
12 responsibility, the responsibility of the Prime Minister, and so on. For
13 example, when it comes to the justice system, when it comes to the
14 minister of justice, the minister of internal affairs, they are not even
15 in the government, they never come to the government sessions, only to the
16 president of the Republic or the president of the Assembly. Neither of
17 them ever stood up in front of the people or on television and said, 'We
18 are responsible for their work,' which would release the Prime Minister
19 from the responsibility. That would be a fair thing to do."
20 Now, can you tell us, Mr. Trbojevic, what you and Mr. Djeric were
21 referring to specifically in those passages, what concern you were
23 A. Well, I have to admit that I haven't found this section where
24 Mr. Djeric said what you read out just now. But I know that I said that
25 some things were happening that did not have a proper logic and that
1 should not be happening that way.
2 At one point I mentioned that the minister of defence said to us
3 that he reported to the General Staff in Belgrade, and in the part that
4 you are reading now, it says that the function of the minister of the
5 interior is linked to the Presidency of the Republic. And in this way, it
6 was basically taken out of the government.
7 So we tried to make a proper schedule this way. Part of the
8 police is involved in military functions, but then another part of the
9 police has to keep the law and order, but there was no one to discuss this
10 with or agree upon with because they did not talk to the Prime Minister,
11 they did not inform the Prime Minister about their activities, so the
12 government remained totally uninformed about this sector of its activity
13 which was supposed to fall under their ambit.
14 Q. First of all, I want to give you an opportunity to find the
15 excerpt of Mr. Djeric's speech that I read earlier, and in the English
16 translation it appears shortly before Mr. Mandic speaks. And Mr. Mandic
17 begins to speak at the top of page 13 and I directed your attention to
18 approximately the middle of page 12 in the B/C/S version.
19 My question is, in addition to complaining that the minister of
20 interior and minister of justice were not reporting to the government or
21 him as the Prime Minister, was Mr. Djeric also complaining that the
22 minister of justice and the minister of interior reported to Mr. Karadzic
23 and Mr. Krajisnik?
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I wonder if -- as the Trial Chamber
25 sometimes might asks, I wonder if Mr. Tieger might just give me a phrase
1 so I can find it by computer search.
2 MR. TIEGER: "For example, when it comes to the justice system,
3 when it comes to the ministry of justice, the minister of internal
4 affairs ..."
5 MR. STEWART: Just a phrase would do. "When it comes to," is a
6 phrase, right? Thank you. Got it, thank you.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, have you been able to find the portion of
9 Mr. Djeric's remarks where he addresses concerns about the minister of
10 justice and minister of interior and to whom they are reporting?
11 A. It starts on page 11 here. On the same page, just below the
12 mid-page, he speaks about the problems of the Ministry of the Interior,
13 Ministry of Justice, and says this is when the problems started, this is
14 when the government encountered problems.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think the part where we find that would be on page
16 12, not on page 11, approximately the last 10 to 12 lines of the first
17 linea on page 12.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think you are interested in this
19 portion where the Prime Minister says that the government has to be -- has
20 to have carte blanche for any changes. If somebody else wants to have
21 ministers at their disposal, then they have to be accountable or held
22 accountable for their work.
23 This was the discussion after a failed attempt of Mr. Djeric to
24 carry out a partial reconstruction of the government and to replace
25 Ministers Stanisic and Mandic.
1 Q. You say, "If somebody else or anybody else wants to have ministers
2 at their disposal, then they have to be accountable." Who was he
3 referring to in using the term, somebody else who wanted to have the
4 ministers at their disposal?
5 A. Based on my conversations with Djeric, I know that in his attempt
6 to reconstruct the government and to replace Ministers Stanisic and
7 Mandic, based on what he told me, he had had discussions with Karadzic and
8 Krajisnik regarding that and did not receive their approval, their
9 consent. This was before the session and probably pertains to that.
10 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, could you clarify something
11 for me, please? You said, or you hinted that neither the interior
12 minister nor the minister of justice were reporting to the Prime Minister
13 and that the people they reported to be tended, in fact, to be
14 Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik. If they had reported to the Prime
15 Minister, what could the Prime Minister have done more than what he was
16 actually doing? What difference would that have made?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prime Minister wanted the
18 cabinet members and the government to function in such a way that the
19 government would be informed about what the ministers were doing. He
20 wanted the government to be the one to inform the Assembly and the
21 president of the Republic about their activities and their work. It was
22 not logical for the minister of police and minister of defence to
23 cooperate with the Presidency without informing the government about that
24 and about the content of that cooperation.
25 As for the minister of justice, I don't know what kind of
1 cooperation he could have provided except in the matter regarding
2 appointment of prosecutors and judges.
3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] But I'm still asking you the same
4 question: What changes would have been made, or what would have been
5 different in that case?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is hard to say what would have
7 happened if this situation in the government was different. I suppose
8 that the insisting on -- ensuring law and order and so on ought to have
9 been enforced to a greater degree. I suppose that the situation regarding
10 the government's duties with respect to the army would have been better
11 had we known, had we been properly informed on all aspects. This is
12 especially true of the justice organs had they known what everybody else
13 was doing. Now as to what they would have done specifically, it's hard
14 for me to say that now.
15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
16 MR. TIEGER:
17 Q. Were you present at any meeting when Mr. Djeric attempted to --
18 spoke to Mr. Krajisnik and Dr. Karadzic about his effort to eliminate or
19 remove Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Mandic from the government?
20 A. Perhaps only once. Perhaps I was present only once. I mostly
21 received information from Mr. Djeric, but I think that on one occasion we
22 talked about that. I was present and I'm sure that Mrs. Plavsic and
23 Mr. Koljevic were present as well.
24 Q. On the occasion that you were present, did Dr. Karadzic and
25 Mr. Krajisnik both reject Mr. Djeric's proposal to remove Mr. Stanisic and
1 Mr. Mandic from government?
2 A. I can't say that this is how it ended, that it ended with them
3 saying, "This is out of the question and we will not discuss it any more."
4 However, they were against it. Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic sided with
5 Mr. Djeric.
6 Later on, the Assembly was held in Banja Luka where this was
7 supposed to be formally pushed through and at that time, Djeric told us
8 that he had talked to them and was told that this was out of the question.
9 Then he attempted to reconstruct the government partially, I think without
10 Stanisic, but with Mandic present as minister without portfolio. We voted
11 on that and voted -- the vote was in favour of that, and this issue
12 remained until Djeric resigned.
13 MR. TIEGER: I could go on, Your Honour, but that's my last
14 question at this moment on that subject and I would be moving on to
15 another topic.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll finish it because then it's a quarter to
18 That was your last question or there was one more question?
19 MR. TIEGER: No, that was my last question.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I misunderstood you.
21 Mr. Stewart, you are on your feet just to hear me say that we are
22 adjourned until tomorrow morning?
23 MR. STEWART: I'm on my feet out of respect for the Trial Chamber
24 because I believe that Your Honours are about to be on your feet to leave
25 the court. No more and no less than that, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I will first announce that we will adjourn until
2 tomorrow morning, 9.00, but in courtroom II, not in this same courtroom.
3 Mr. Trbojevic, I would like to instruct you that you should speak
4 with no one about the testimony you have been giving until now and you are
5 still about to give in the coming days. We'd like to see you back
6 tomorrow morning at 9.00.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.
8 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of April,
9 2005, at 9.00 a.m.