1 Thursday, 7 April 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Madam Registrar, would
6 you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours, this is case number
8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. Stewart, I see that it's you again so changing of the guards
11 have been successful again.
12 MR. STEWART: We like to ring the changes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Mr. Tieger, are you ready to continue the examination of Mr.
16 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into
18 the courtroom.
19 Perhaps in the meantime, I could inform the parties about a small
20 change we have discussed with the Registry in the admission of documents
21 in evidence. Madam Registrar usually reads shortly what the exhibit is
22 when it's presented and we'll not read the whole description again once a
23 final decision will be taken, and if any of the parties would have any
24 comment on the way the exhibits are described on the list, we'll take note
25 of that and see whether the description is correct.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ORIE: So that will save some time in the reading,
3 especially if we have a long list of exhibits.
4 Good afternoon, Mr. Trbojevic. Not very polite of me to continue
5 speaking when you enter the courtroom. Good afternoon. I'd like to
6 remind you again that you are still bound by the solemn declaration that
7 you gave at the beginning of your testimony, and I'd like to remind you
8 that if you would think that a truthful answer to the questions put to you
9 might be incriminating for yourself, that you could address the court and
10 tell us that so we can make the determination proper.
11 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.
12 WITNESS: MILAN TRBOJEVIC [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Examined by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]
15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Trbojevic.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. In the session before we concluded last night, I believe we looked
18 at a number of documents including one from early August by Mr. Kovac, and
19 a document from the Ministry of the Interior dated July 17th. I'd like to
20 turn now to a government session held on the 22nd of July found at tab 34
21 in binder 1.
22 Mr. Trbojevic, tab 34 contains the minutes of the 41st session of
23 the government held, as I indicated a moment ago, on the 22nd of July,
24 1992. The minutes indicate that the chairman of the session was
25 Professor Djeric, the Prime Minister, and that among those present were
1 yourself, the government Deputy Prime Minister and Mr. Subotic,
2 Mr. Mandic, Mr. Ostojic, Mr. Stanisic, and Dr. Kalinic.
3 If I could ask you, sir, to turn to agenda item 14. That agenda
4 item details current issues and the third issue reflected in the minutes
5 is the following: "The government has been informed on some occurrences
6 of unlawful treatment of war prisoners. It has been concluded that all
7 measures be taken to ensure the consistent application of an order by the
8 Serb Republic of BH Presidency regarding the treatment of prisoners."
9 Mr. Trbojevic, can you tell us what information the government had
10 received regarding occurrences of unlawful treatment of war prisoners?
11 A. I can't remember who briefed the government and what information
12 was provided exactly. Based on the agenda items prior to this one, I can
13 see that they are mentioning military police and some other issues and as
14 for this part here, there is nothing more specific than what you quoted.
15 It just says "certain instances of unlawful treatment." I can't remember
16 who specifically said what at that time.
17 Q. Do you have a recollection about the general subject matter being
18 raised around this time?
19 A. It is stated here or rather the decision of the Presidency on
20 treatment to be -- treatment of the war prisoners, that decision is
21 mentioned here so that must mean that some kind of a discussion took
23 Q. In light of our earlier discussions about the government sessions,
24 the establishment of the working group to address the question of
25 prisoners and exchanges, do you have a recollection about the receipt of
1 subsequent information regarding unlawful treatment of prisoners?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Minutes of the session state that all measure should be taken to
4 ensure the application of an order by the Serb Republic of BH Presidency.
5 Regarding the treatment of war prisoners, do you recall what measures, if
6 any, were taken?
7 A. I don't know what measures were taken. I know that the Defence
8 Minister drafted the text of that order and I believe that through the
9 General Staff, he forwarded it to various commands.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, may I seek a clarification.
11 What do you mean by "the text of that order"? Are you referring
12 to the order mentioned under agenda item 14, the "order of the Serb
13 Republic of BH Presidency regarding the treatment of war prisoners"?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I knew that the Defence
15 Minister was preparing such an order and that I'm sure that through the
16 General Staff, the order was forwarded to various commands.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That must have been prior to this discussion,
18 isn't it?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Was it -- did it happen at other occasions as well
21 that a minister would draft an order which would then be issued by the
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what the customary procedure
24 ought to be.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. Exhibit P64, P65 in the Treanor presentation, and I think also
5 introduced as P443 - we should check that to see if there is a
6 duplication - is an order of June 13th that appears in the -- appeared in
7 the Official Gazette on that date. Perhaps, and it may offer some
8 clarification, I have one copy of it. If it could be placed on the ELMO,
9 perhaps we could --
10 JUDGE ORIE: I was not that much confused but you asked what
11 measures were taken and the witness referred to something in the logic
12 should have happened before the discussion so I was mainly seeking to
13 clarify the chronological order.
14 MR. TIEGER: I was just going to start one step at a time by
15 identifying the order, if it can be done.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We can put it on the ELMO if we put it on the
17 ELMO and if the B/C/S original would be in the hands of the witness.
18 Mr. Usher, I see that the B/C/S original -- there's another copy
20 MR. TIEGER:
21 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, the exhibit before you is the instructions on the
22 treatment of captured persons, the headings indicates on the basis of the
23 order of the Presidency, the Minister of Defence issued instructions and I
24 believe we see on the second page, which is not currently on the ELMO, the
25 name and signature of Colonel Bogdan Subotic.
1 First of all, is that the order that you were just referring to in
2 the -- discussing the agenda item?
3 A. It most likely is; however, I cannot be fully certain that this is
4 the exact text that we reviewed. I know that on several occasions,
5 Colonel Subotic drafted instructions or orders.
6 Q. And after receipt of information that occurrences of unlawful
7 treatment of war prisoners had taken place, what measures, if any, were
8 taken to ensure the application of either this order or any other order
9 that directed itself to the treatment of prisoners?
10 A. As far as I know, in addition to the measures we have seen in
11 these documents, there were no other steps taken by the government. I
12 also know that in addition to this instruction, Colonel Subotic also
13 drafted some orders on behalf of the president and the Supreme Command.
14 The minutes do mention an order and not instructions; therefore, it is
15 quite possible that at that time, what we had in front of us was one of
16 these orders.
17 Q. Well, I think the minutes say an order of -- by the Serb Republic
18 of BH Presidency and looking at the exhibit in front of you, which was P65
19 Treanor tab 12, or at binder 12, tab 159, it states, "On the basis of the
20 order of the president." I don't know if that clarifies it for you in any
21 way but I direct your attention to that.
22 A. I do not deny that it says here that the instructions are being
23 issued on the basis of the order; however, I know that I saw in his hands
24 also the orders that he was drafting. So I can't be sure whether it's the
25 instructions that we discussed at that time or some of the orders.
1 Q. Can you tell us anything about the scale or nature of occurrences
2 of unlawful treatment that were made known to members of the government or
3 any other political authorities at that time?
4 A. I can't.
5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Tieger, I'd like to ask a
7 Witness, I would like to ask you the following question: When in
8 government session, it is stated that war prisoners have not been treated
9 according to the law, and that the order issued by the president of the
10 Serb Republic has not been complied with, who was in charge of reporting
11 to the president or to the Presidency? In other words, was it the case
12 that the Presidency was systematically informed of anything that was going
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose that the General Staff had
15 to have this information and the Defence Minister must have received his
16 information from them.
17 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, but what I would like to
18 understand is how the institutions worked. For example, if we have a look
19 at these minutes that were established after each session, were they
20 systematically sent to the Presidency, these minutes? Was someone in
21 charge of reporting to the Presidency? Was this organised,
22 institutionalised? You must be aware of that because I repeat it once
23 again, you were the Deputy Prime Minister. How did all this work?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think that the minutes were
25 regularly sent to them. There was no regular practice of sending them.
1 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] But following each session, was
2 someone in charge of reporting to the Presidency? What had been going on?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Prime Minister attended Presidency
4 sessions. I don't think that that took place on a daily basis but at
5 least several times a week.
6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I would have one additional question to
8 that as well.
9 Did you ever experience, in your communications, conversations
10 with members of the Presidency, that they were unaware of any issue you
11 wanted to raise, you wanted to discuss, or you referred to?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. Now, I think you indicated that you believed that information
17 regarding unlawful treatment of prisoners would be made known to the
18 Defence Minister, that was Mr. Subotic and he was present at that meeting;
19 is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the document we looked at before, that is the instructions on
22 the treatment of captured persons, indicates in its last paragraph,
23 paragraph 19, that, "The commission for the exchange of prisoners
24 operating under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice of the Serbian
25 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina shall also function as an information
1 bureau for providing information on captured persons."
2 And that head of the Ministry of Justice was Momcilo Mandic and he
3 was also present at that meeting; is that right?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. And I believe you indicated early your in your testimony as
6 reflected in remarks at the 19th or the 22nd Assembly session held in
7 Zvornik in November, and remarks by you and by Mr. Djeric that
8 Mr. Stanisic, in addition to Mr. Mandic, were reporting to Mr. Karadzic
9 and Mr. Krajisnik, and Mr. Stanisic was also present at that meeting; is
10 that correct?
11 A. I think that he was.
12 Q. And finally, I believe you indicated earlier in your testimony in
13 discussing the ICRC agreement number 2 in Geneva in May of 1992, which was
14 signed by Mr. Kalinic, that he often reported to Mr. Karadzic. Is that
15 right and was he also present at the meeting?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, I believe you indicated on Tuesday, when discussing the
18 information available to you and others, and during the course of a
19 discussion about the extent of the territories that were controlled by
20 Bosnian Serb forces and where those territories were and whether they also
21 encompassed areas where the Muslims were or had been a majority, that
22 every Assembly session was opened with a report on the political situation
23 and the situation in the theatres of war -- excuse me, that's just for the
24 benefit of counsel and the Court, that's in the area of 11-5-29 and
25 11-5-30. And you also indicated that you were given the information and
1 could take notice of it but you stated that you were not able to respond
2 in terms of saying that someone made a wrong decision or had advocated a
3 position with which you didn't agree.
4 Do you generally recall that?
5 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Can we turn, then, to tab 79 which contain the transcript of an
7 Assembly session held on the 26th of July, 1992. Tab 79 is in binder 2.
8 Mr. Trbojevic, tab 79 reflects the taperecording of the 17th
9 session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly held on 25 and 26 July, as you can
10 see from the beginning. It was chaired by Mr. Krajisnik who opens the
11 session with some remarks.
12 Your remarks at that session, although I don't -- well, first of
13 all, may I ask you, I don't need to direct your attention to your remarks
14 at that session if you recall attending that session at the -- in the
15 latter part of July 1992. Your remarks are reflected at page 43 of the
16 English translation, and in your copy, that would be page 41, I believe --
17 no, excuse me, page 42, toward the bottom.
18 I'm actually going to direct your attention to remarks of others
19 at that session, Mr. Trbojevic. First of all, recalling our -- the
20 testimony the other day about the extent of territory that had been --
21 that the Bosnian Serb forces were in control of, we discussed figures
22 ranging from 65 to 70 per cent. Perhaps I can ask you to turn this would
23 be page 38 of the English translation and page -- beginning at page 37 and
24 extending into page 38 of the B/C/S translation before you, Mr. Trbojevic.
25 Those are the remarks by Mrs. Plavsic.
1 If you could look at her comments beginning at about the fourth
2 sentence of the second paragraph of her remarks, she states that, "65 per
3 cent of Serb territory belong to our people according to the cadastre and
4 70 per cent of the conquered one which is only 5 per cent gain in relation
5 to the previous number."
6 So was that one occasion on which you were informed of the extent
7 of territory within Bosnia and Herzegovina that had been acquired by
8 Bosnian Serb forces?
9 A. This was evidently discussed.
10 Q. Okay. And I take it that's a reflection of the same thing you
11 were telling us yesterday, that some of the information you received, you
12 received at Assembly sessions during the course of discussions about the
13 military and political situation.
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. Do you recall also hearing at that session about problems with
16 captured Muslims and Croats?
17 A. I don't know whether we discussed this, but if you could refer me
18 to the page in order to remind myself of it.
19 Q. Certainly. If I could ask you to turn to page 31 of the B/C/S
20 copy, that'd be page 32 of the English translation. Those are comments by
21 Mr. Milanovic. His remarks begin at page 28 of the English.
22 The portion to which I'm directing your attention, Mr. Trbojevic,
23 as I say is found at your page 31, and the English translation, page 32.
24 And Mr. Milanovic states, "We have a huge problem with captured people of
25 other nationalities. We have hundreds and thousands of these prisoners."
1 It appears to be in the course of a discussion by Mr. Milanovic
2 identifying various problems to which he wants to bring the attention of
3 the people gathered at the Assembly?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, your microphone was on -- it's now off
5 again. We heard your typing but it's now off again.
6 Yes. Let's proceed.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see that Dr. Milanovic talked
8 about there being a large number of captured persons.
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. Are you able to tell us what the nature of the huge problem with
11 these captured people was?
12 A. I can't tell you what Dr. Milanovic had in mind while talking
13 about it here. He was the vice-president of the Assembly, otherwise a
14 physician from Banja Luka. He must have possessed some information. I
15 can't really glean from the text here what else he might have had in mind.
16 Q. Did this information, as related by Dr. Milanovic, trigger any
17 action by you or any other of the political officials assembled at the
18 Assembly session?
19 A. Beyond that which we have already discussed here, no.
20 Q. Did you also receive information at that session regarding the
21 forcible displacement or expulsion of Muslims or other non-Serbs from
22 areas now controlled by the Bosnian Serb forces?
23 A. I don't think so. Not any information about forcible
24 displacement. I don't think anybody mentioned anything of the sort.
25 Q. Can I ask you to turn to page 67 of the B/C/S version in front of
1 you and page 66 of the English. Those pages reflect the remarks of Mr.
2 Prstojevic who says at the beginning of his remarks, "Mr. President,
3 honourable MPs, I have decided to say a few words and to ask a few
4 questions that I am being asked by the citizens of Sarajevo. Namely, when
5 the Serbs started the uprise rising in Sarajevo and when they seized
6 control over certain areas, there was no government or at least it was not
7 known where it was then. Moreover, we even did not know if Mr. Karadzic
8 was alive in the first couple of days. When we learned that he was alive,
9 and when he visited us in Ilidza, and encouraged us, the Serbs from
10 Sarajevo retained control over the territory and even extended their
11 territory in some areas driving the Muslims out of the territories where
12 they had actually been majority."
13 First of all, did you know at that time, who Mr. Prstojevic was?
14 A. I think he was the president of the municipality of Ilidza.
15 Q. And did his -- did the information he provided the -- those
16 gathered at the Assembly, including yourself, that the -- he and the Serbs
17 from his area had extended their territory by driving the Muslims out the
18 areas where they had been a majority trigger any particular reaction that
19 you recall?
20 A. No. If I may comment on this. I think that they viewed this as a
21 result, as a consequence of war operations.
22 Q. So ...
23 A. If I may comment further upon the municipality of Ilidza, it is
24 located on the opposite side of Sarajevo in relation to Pale. The issue
25 of access to Ilidza was a problematical one because there was no access to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 it, in fact. Next to it was the town of Hadzici which was under Muslim
2 control as well as the surrounding areas so that what was at issue here
3 was the very survival of this municipality.
4 Therefore, this piece of information that Muslims had been driven
5 away from a part of this municipality was not regarded as any sort of a
6 conquest of the area, but simply trying to secure access to the area.
7 Q. What's the difference between conquest and simply securing access
8 to the area?
9 A. I will agree with you, yes, that there is no difference.
10 Q. I'm interested in your familiarity with what you called war
11 operations in that area. Are you familiar, for example, what happened in
12 Gornji Kotorac in roughly May of 1992?
13 A. I don't know what was going on. I can't even say whether in
14 relation to what Prstojevic was remarking here, whether there was some
15 sort of a military action involved there but the government did not react
16 to this in any way. I don't know what was going on in Kotorac.
17 Q. Perhaps we can turn to some information on events in the Birac
18 area. That would be found at -- well let's begin at about page 74 of the
19 B/C/S and page 72 of the English translation. You can see on page 71 of
20 the translation that it's Mr. Dukic speaking, Rajko Dukic. Mr. Dukic had
21 been, for quite a time, the president of the SDS Executive Board; is that
22 right, sir?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And if we look at a portion of Mr. Dukic's remarks found toward
25 the bottom of page 72 after what appeared to be some complaints about the
1 extent of success of the Serbian forces, Mr. Dukic states, "So I'm asking
2 you, gentlemen, why we expelled all Muslim judges from Vlasenica,
3 Bratunac, and Zvornik? Will we be accused then, I hope we will not, but
4 will these others be better there working like this? I would be ashamed
5 and I would regret all the victims if I lived in a state in which Muslims
6 and Muslim ideology would judge -- and where their justice was done."
7 Further down in Mr. Dukic's remarks, approximately the middle of
8 the page 73 in English and in yours, page 75, sir, Mr. Dukic notes, "If
9 question move further, there is Birac which is 100 to 108 kilometres away
10 and has 120.000 Muslims. That is -- that is how many there were but I
11 hope that has at least been halved and 90.000 Serbs."
12 Do you recall, Mr. Trbojevic, whether the remarks of Mr. Dukic at
13 the 17th session triggered any action by any member of the government or
14 any other member of the political authorities who were at the meeting?
15 A. I don't know whether anybody acted upon this. I know that Dukic
16 approached Djeric and talked to him on several occasions. I know that he
17 also spoke to Karadzic before and after because that's what his status
18 was. As for any official reaction after this meeting, I wouldn't know
19 about that.
20 Q. And the area that Mr. Dukic is referring to, Birac, is the same
21 area that was the -- where Major Andric was a commander at the time he
22 issued the order regarding the moving out of the Muslim population and the
23 placement of men fit for military service into camps for exchange; is that
25 A. Birac is an area extending down the slope of the mountain into the
1 valley in the direction of Vlasenica and Zvornik. That's the area.
2 Q. And you recall reviewing the order of Major Andric the other day
3 and he was indicated as the Birac Commander or excuse me, the Commander of
4 the Birac Brigade, that's the same area where Mr. Dukic is talking about;
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, in addition to this information, Mr. Trbojevic, wasn't there
8 also information made available at this session regarding what was
9 happening in the Muslim population even beyond expulsions and even beyond
10 their placement into camps, that is, indications that Muslims were being
12 A. Beyond war operations, I don't know whether there were any other
13 types of information provided.
14 Q. Well, do you recall anybody saying that the Bosnian Serbs had been
15 chosen by the -- by Europe or by the International Community to be the
16 Muslims' executioners?
17 A. Believe me, I don't know.
18 Q. Is that something that you think you would have reacted to if
19 you'd heard?
20 A. I would not have reacted there and then at the session, but
21 definitely if such a statement had been made, it amounted, then, to
22 nonsense, utmost nonsense.
23 Q. Can we turn to page 40 of the English, and page 40 of the B/C/S,
24 please. That portion of the transcript reflects remarks by Mr. Nedic.
25 And he states, "I am against solving the situation in Bosnia in haste. We
1 must admit that the Muslims have been planted to us as a people whose
2 executioners we are to be. I do not want the Serb people to be
3 executioners but I am also against us giving up our state, our land, and
4 our territory."
5 Did Mr. Nedic's remarks reflect any kind of general consensus at
6 that Assembly session that acquiring the land, territory and state was
7 going to involve the Serbs being the executioners of the Muslims?
8 A. Nedic was not able to properly express his own views let alone
9 those of others. He was a peculiar sort of man who there, from the
10 rostrum, invited, called upon Izetbegovic to return to prison because he
11 had previously been serving a sentence there. His remarks for the most
12 part boiled down to irresponsible scenes. You can see here that he is
13 invoking some sort of a plan dating 800 or 1.000 years back in history.
14 Q. What do you find irresponsible, what was the nature of the
15 irresponsibility of his remarks, Mr. Nedic's remarks, in what way do you
16 find them irresponsible?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat. The
18 interpreters didn't understand the answer.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trbojevic, would you please repeat your answer,
20 the interpreters could not hear you.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor asked me what was
22 irresponsible about this text which is quoted under the name of Nedic and
23 I said that everything in here is irresponsible including his claim that
24 some 700 to 800 years prior to that, there was a centre which had planned
25 the events that we were taking part in then and that we ought to be
1 executioners executing some other nation and so on.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, may I ask you for a clarification. In
3 your previous question to the witness, you asked him whether he recalled
4 anybody saying that the Bosnian Serbs had been chosen by Europe or by the
5 International Community to be the Muslims' executioners and then when the
6 witness said "I don't remember," then you took him to page 40 and 41.
7 In the remarks of Mr. Nedic, I do not see any reference to the
8 International Community or Europe. Is that a mistake on my part or is
9 that -- could you clarify that?
10 MR. TIEGER: You're quite right, Your Honour, and the question was
11 not framed precisely but I think it did direct your attention to the
12 appropriate portion of the text that I wanted to discuss. But I'm not
13 suggesting via that question that there's another portion of Mr. Nedic's
14 remarks that indicate who planted the Muslims there.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps in the view of how the examination goes,
16 perhaps some special caution would be proper, Mr. Tieger, in this respect.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. TIEGER: However, I will -- I think Mr. Trbojevic mentioned a
19 portion of Mr. Nedic's remarks about an 800-year-old plan.
20 Q. And Mr. Trbojevic, you were mentioning the remarks by Mr. Nedic at
21 the beginning of his comments where he said "This which is happening" - I
22 take that to mean a reference to this portion - "this which is happening
23 in Bosnia-Herzegovina today was planned 700 to 800 years ago in one of the
24 world's power centres and this which is happening today is by no means
1 A. That's not what I said, this is what is stated in this document.
2 Q. I understand. But were when you were indicated what you found
3 irresponsible about the remarks, I understood you to be pointing out in
4 part those portions of his remarks?
5 A. Yes, including that part.
6 Q. And what do you find to be irresponsible about his remarks that
7 the Serbs are to be the Muslims' executioners?
8 A. I said that the entire statement was irresponsible and that it
9 represented an outburst, that it did not, in fact, represent anyone's
10 position or anyone's view. He claims here that the Muslims have been
11 planted on us as a nation, which is ludicrous. He claims that someone
12 else had envisaged Serbs as executioners of the other nation which, once
13 again, is completely unfounded.
14 Q. Did that --
15 A. The only thing that he said that could be acceptable is this bit
16 here where he says that he doesn't want the Serbs to be executioners.
17 Q. Did that reflect what was actually happening on the ground, that
18 is, that Muslims were being killed at such a scale that it could be said,
19 as a general matter, that they are being executed as a people, it seems,
20 in this comment?
21 A. I have no knowledge regarding that, and I don't think that it
22 could be said in that way. The exception to that would naturally be the
23 events in Srebrenica that have become known now.
24 Q. What would have been the appropriate reaction if that view of the
25 conflict and of the consequences of the conflict had been confirmed by a
1 member of the Bosnian Serb leadership?
2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the questions are now entering into a
3 realm of hypothesis and speculation which is really outside the scope of
4 proper examination of the witness.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
6 MR. TIEGER: Let's eliminate any hypothesis and speculation,
7 Your Honour, and perhaps we can turn to another portion of the transcript.
8 Before we do, I have one more question about this page of the transcript.
9 Q. And that is, we see that Vojin Kupresanin, can you please tell us
10 quickly who Mr. Kupresanin was?
11 A. Kupresanin is from Banja Luka, an MP, and I don't know whether, at
12 the time, he was the president of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of
13 Krajina, I'm not sure.
14 Q. I'd like you to turn, please, to page 88 of the B/C/S, that's page
15 86 of the English translation. That page reflects remarks by Mr. Karadzic
16 at that session, his remarks begin at page 85 in the English, page 87 of
17 the B/C/S. In approximately the middle of page 86 of the English and I
18 believe somewhere toward the top of page 88 in the B/C/S, Dr. Karadzic
19 states the following: "There is truth in what Mr. Kupresanin has said,
20 although nobody in Europe will say it openly, that this conflict was
21 roused in order to eliminate the Muslims."
22 Did Dr. Karadzic's remarks reflect his understanding of events on
23 the ground as far as you were aware?
24 A. They most likely did. He certainly didn't say this off the cuff,
25 he must have prepared before he took the floor and it contains certain
1 elements that he mentioned several times, on a number of occasions.
2 Q. On what other occasions did you hear Dr. Karadzic make remarks
3 that contained these elements?
4 A. He spoke several times in various assemblies, in Sarajevo before
5 he left the town, and also in our assemblies in the clubs of deputies. He
6 would say that we -- that the Muslims want to create their own state but
7 that we do not want them to overwhelm us by numbers, to become dominant
8 through numbers. This thesis that Europe wants to protect itself from the
9 Muslim invasion and a result of that has provoked a war in the Balkans in
10 order to prevent that, these are things that were mentioned more than
12 Q. Just to follow up on that, and so he was saying -- and since the
13 Muslims are being destroyed as a consequence of this war, then Europe must
14 have intended that?
15 A. That was a view. You know, sometimes, he would say it in a very
16 vivid way. He would say, "We don't want to win by using just one arm." He
17 would also say, "We don't mind them having their own state, they can have
18 their own state, it's just that it should be without us." This is
19 something that was mentioned several times.
20 Q. And the corollary was also true, and our state should also be
21 without them?
22 A. Yes, this thesis that a state must be pure was never verbalised.
23 I don't think it was ever uttered and even if you scruitinise the
24 documents in the most thorough way, you probably wouldn't find that
1 Q. If not stated explicitly, was it understood in other ways?
2 A. I don't think that it was implied or understood in other ways
3 because even though we had all kinds of constitutional amendments, this
4 statement never crept into the Constitution, it never was allowed into the
5 constitutional text.
6 Q. But there was expressed concern, wasn't there, about the number of
7 Muslims who would be in Serb territories because of Muslim birth rates,
8 Muslim demographics?
9 A. That's right. That's right.
10 JUDGE ORIE: May I take the opportunity to ask for one question.
11 You said the corollary, that is, "us but without them" was never
12 stated. Mr. Tieger then asked you if it was understood, and your answer
13 came down to approximately: It was not understood because it never got
14 its place in the text of the Constitution even when amended. That is not
15 a complete answer to that question since even if it does not appear in the
16 constitution, a matter could still be understood. Therefore, let me
17 directly ask you: Was it envisaged, once there would be a separate Serb
18 entity or state, whatever you call it, and a separate Muslim state, was it
19 envisaged that in that Serb state, there would remain a substantial number
20 of non-Serbs living there?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who made what kind of
22 analyses; however, I'm certain that it was not understood that the
23 territory of Republika Srpska ought to exist without Muslims.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. "Not without," what would be, let's say,
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not negotiate. We did not
2 bargain on this issue, so I cannot answer your question. We never
3 discussed whether 30 per cent was too much, or 20 per cent was too little.
4 There were no such discussions.
5 JUDGE ORIE: But in those parts where there was a majority of
6 Muslims, was that a situation that would be accepted?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I maintain that I did not hear
8 anyone at the level of leadership saying that the numbers ought to be
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let me then put it in a different way. Is there any
11 part of the territory of Republika Srpska which had a majority non-Serb
12 population before the armed conflict that still had a majority non-Serb
13 population after the hostilities had ended, the armed hostilities?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know statistical
15 figures. As far as I know, the territory of the city of Bijeljina had a
16 majority of Muslim population and exactly what the numbers were in each
17 municipality, I think the answer is no; however, I cannot be certain.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, we've seen references in the Assembly to expulsions
21 of Muslims, the confinement of Muslims and Croats, to Serbs becoming the
22 executioners of Muslims, to the concern about Muslim birth rates. You
23 said that you never heard anyone in the leadership say that the numbers
24 had to be reduced. Was it understood, as a result of sessions like this
25 and other contacts among political figures that the numbers were being
2 A. I did not make such a conclusion and I don't think that the others
3 had any reason to draw such a conclusion. Now, as to whether there were
4 some people who had already crystalised such views, perhaps. I can't
5 claim that there weren't such people.
6 Q. You stated the other day that you would hear things at Assembly
7 sessions and learn information at Assembly sessions but that you made a
8 point of saying you couldn't always -- you couldn't do anything about some
9 of the things that you heard, you couldn't tell a General he was wrong,
10 you couldn't essentially challenge a position. So first let me ask you,
11 are these views that you agreed with or didn't agree with, the ones we've
12 looked at in this Assembly session?
13 A. Now, you're putting a general question to me. There are many
14 elements with which I disagreed, but I can't say that I disagreed with
16 Q. Did any of these remarks or positions or the inferences to be
17 drawn from them or the inferences that were drawn from them by you cause
18 you, as Deputy Minister, to take any action whatsoever?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you understand from what happened at that session that the
21 events that were being discussed, including the reduction of Muslims as
22 reflected in the remarks of Mr. Dukic, the confinement of Muslims and
23 Croats as reflected in the remarks by Mr. Nedic, and the other elements
24 we've discussed, would stop or would continue?
25 A. My expectations were such that I wanted the state of war to be
1 brought to an end as soon as possible, to have the peace process commenced
2 and to ensure that the peace reigned in that area as soon as possible.
3 Most sincerely, we hoped, with each new negotiating -- peace negotiation,
4 that a way would be found to put an end to hostilities. Nobody in their
5 right mind could either go along with a wish upon the people to be
6 confined, to be killed in their confinement, and to be afforded a
7 treatment which is contrary to human dignity.
8 The settlement was not possible without cessation of war
10 Q. Mrs. Plavsic talked about the amount of conquered territory,
11 Mr. Nedic remarked that he didn't want the Serbs to be executioners but he
12 wanted the state, the land, and the territory. Were there any indications
13 by members of the Bosnian Serb leadership that there would be continued
14 efforts to acquire Serbian ethnic territory?
15 A. I don't think that such a statement could be put forward because
16 even the Cutileiro Plan had envisaged certain frameworks for ethnic
17 communities and the Serb side accepted that plan.
18 Q. But the events we've just been -- and the consequences we've just
19 been looking at were the result, weren't they, of efforts to gain control
20 of what were regarded as Serbian ethnic territory?
21 A. Listen, when a war erupts in a certain territory, a war between
22 three sides, where each side is fighting the other two, then very little
23 can be planned. Each side in the military sense tried to put as much
24 territory as possible under its control.
25 Q. Didn't the Bosnian Serb leadership insist on the acquisition of
1 what were regarded as Bosnian Serb territories?
2 A. No, it did not insist. In a number of such meetings and sessions,
3 not only Assembly ones, there were objections voiced both by members of
4 the General Staff and other officers about the fact that a political
5 position had not been clearly defined and that there were no conclusions
6 reached or a position taken as to what areas ought to be conquered and
7 then defended; rather, the troops were sent to the front line without an
8 actual goal, without knowing why is it that we were waging a war in that
9 area and not in another area and so on.
10 And if you're interested, I can illustrate this with one of the
11 Assembly sessions where some of us MPs objected and said, "Why is it that
12 the team representing us in international negotiations does not address
13 the MPs with a proposal of our final clearly defined political position?"
14 Then, Karadzic gave the following answer: We objected to the fact that
15 numerous proposals of the International Community and various other
16 figures were not being accepted while simultaneously, we were failing do
17 clearly define our political position and say what it is that we wanted.
18 Karadzic explained this with the following sentence, "We will not
19 accept any plan. We will accept what we are forced to accept," which, in
20 my sincere view, was ridiculous. But that's what the situation was like.
21 Q. And didn't Mr. Krajisnik say at this very session we've been
22 looking at that there were territories that were not yet under the control
23 of the Bosnian Serbs but which should be part of the Bosnian Serb republic
24 because they're ethnic territories? Let me direct your attention to page
25 49 of the B/C/S and page 49 of the English.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Do you see that about a dozen lines down, Mr. Trbojevic? "Also
2 there are territories which are not under our control now but which should
3 be part of the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina due to them being
4 ethnic territories."
5 A. Yes, I can see that.
6 Q. You said in your remarks just a moment ago that there were no
7 goals. Doesn't Mr. Krajisnik refer to those ethnic territories in the
8 course of talking about the strategic goals?
9 A. He said that Republika Srpska should include the ethnic
10 territories held by the Serbian people. That is where the Serb people
11 lived. And this, here, they refer actually to the territories where the
12 Serb people used to live prior to World War II when genocide was committed
13 against the Serbian people.
14 Q. And where Muslims now constituted a majority; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm looking at the clock.
17 MR. TIEGER: That's fine, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In view of your forecast yesterday that you'd
19 finish your examination-in-chief by the first break ...
20 MR. TIEGER: I would ask for this indulgence of the Court. If in
21 the break, I have an opportunity to -- I am very close, I can assure you
22 of that, and it's close enough so I wouldn't ask at this point directly
23 for more time but I would ask an opportunity to look over my documents and
24 see if there's anything left.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You are then allowed not to express yourself on
1 whether this finishes your examination-in-chief, but to express yourself
2 after the break and then depending on what you are asking we'll see to
3 what extent we can meet your request. We adjourn until quarter past 4.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 4.22 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 I would ask for permission for another basically I won't say one
9 question but one series of questions arising from directly from what we
10 were just discussing and I can assure the Court we will -- that I will,
11 nevertheless, finish within the earlier estimate. I suspect I'm talking
12 about five to ten minutes at most.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger, that would approximately compensate
15 the time taken by the Chamber before.
16 MR. TIEGER: That's very kind, thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
18 MR. TIEGER:
19 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, during the discussion before the break, I asked you
20 at one point -- you mentioned at one point "their state without us" and I
21 asked if the corollary was true, "our state without them," and you stated
22 that this thesis that a state must be pure was never verbalised.
23 I'd like you, please, to look at Exhibit 292 KID 3081. That's a
24 video and transcript, Your Honour -- it's a recording, excuse me. And for
25 the benefit of the interpreters, the portion of the recording that will be
1 played can be found at the begin -- beginning at the bottom of ERN page
2 0361-7691, I think beginning the second line from the bottom.
3 In the English, found at page 4, approximately eight lines down.
4 It's a recording from the deputies' club of 28 February 1992.
5 [Audiotape played]
6 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Look at these priests of ours, every
7 time we discuss with great respect and then we say, "God help the Serbian
8 people to agree." No one has the right to do that by bypassing or unity.
9 I tell you, everything we do in this parliament, everything I do
10 personally, I do exclusively for pure areas of -- and Herzegovina and --
11 and I will not yield the right to tell the people of Krajina that they are
12 not right. The people of Krajina are not working for the whole Serbian
13 people, but we are working for the people of Krajina. But that is
14 difficult to prove."
15 Mr. Trbojevic, you're gesturing. Did you have -- were you able to
16 hear that?
17 A. It was just a brief clip, but at a certain point we couldn't hear
18 the recording anymore.
19 MR. TIEGER: Let me.
20 JUDGE ORIE: It was a brief clip, Mr. Trbojevic, that's what it
21 intended. The only thing we have to find out was whether the clip you
22 heard was any shorter. Where did it finish? The last part I heard was
23 the line, "But that is difficult to prove." Did you hear that portion?
24 Could you have a look at the page with the last four digits is -- I think
25 it was 7691, Mr. Tieger, upper part. Is that correct?
1 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you just perhaps read the part and see where
3 you -- where it stopped for you.
4 Could you tell us what was the last line you heard?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That wasn't intelligible.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You couldn't understand any part of it. Could we
7 replay it, Mr. Tieger, and could we perhaps make clear to the witness
8 where your clip starts.
9 MR. TIEGER: It starts --
10 JUDGE ORIE: At the bottom of page 7691, I take it.
11 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Your Honour, where the words "ivo
13 JUDGE ORIE: Have you found that, Mr. Trbojevic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The two last lines of 0361-7691 and then we replay it
16 and please -- Mr. Usher, could you also show to the witness where the
17 volume button is so that he can -- let's then replay that portion.
18 [Audiotape played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Look at these priests of ours:
20 Every time we discuss with great respect and then we say, "God help the
21 Serbian people to agree," no one has the right to do that by bypassing our
22 unity. I tell you everything we do in this parliament, everything I do
23 personally, I do exclusively for pure areas of -- and Herzegovina, and --
24 and I will not yield the right to tell the people of Krajina that they are
25 not right. The people of Krajina are not working for the whole Serbian
1 people, but we are working for the people of Krajina. But that is
2 difficult to prove."
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you hear it, Mr. Trbojevic?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I could.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Do you recognise the voice of the speaker, Mr. Trbojevic?
7 A. I believe it is Krajisnik's.
8 Q. And before you heard this recording here today, had you heard Mr.
9 Krajisnik, on any previous occasion, speak about pure areas and the -- or
10 that everything he did, he did exclusively for pure areas?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat your answer, Mr. Trbojevic.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't hear.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. Were you present at a session of the deputies' club on February
16 28th, 1992?
17 A. If that's the Assembly session at which the temperature and the
18 tensions heightened, so to speak, between Radovan Karadzic and --
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't understand the other
21 A. -- the date itself of the 28th of February doesn't really tell me
23 JUDGE ORIE: Will you please repeat the second name, you said the
24 tension between Radovan Karadzic and the second name.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Radoslav Brdjanin. This bit does
1 look like it's from that session because Mr. Krajisnik is addressing
2 people from Krajina as if he was talking about the clearing up of the
3 relations that have something to do with them -- or the clearing up of the
4 positions [Interpreter's note].
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. In any event, Mr. Trbojevic, let me ask you this question. We
7 looked at the remarks made in July and the events that were reflected in
8 those remarks. What was happening on the ground at that time and is
9 reflected in the remarks that -- that we looked at before the break were
10 moving Republika Srpska toward a state that was more ethnically pure.
11 A. The expression "ethnically pure" was not uttered by either myself
12 or any of the persons involved in this discussion.
13 Q. The things they described, the expulsions, the reduction of
14 Muslims, the Serbs being Muslims' executioners were moving Republika
15 Srpska towards a more ethnically-pure state, weren't they?
16 A. You have mentioned several elements in your question and I cannot
17 agree to the question as it is put, cannot give an affirmative answer.
18 Q. The reduction of Muslims on the territories controlled by Bosnian
19 Serbs in the ways we saw reflected in the comments at that session, was
20 that moving Republika Srpska toward a more ethnically-pure state?
21 A. Sir, to the extent I heard about the policies as discussed at
22 Assembly sessions, there was no such policy with a view to reducing the
23 numbers of Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina and creating "pure"
24 territories. Now, whether a sentence or two taken from here might serve
25 as an introduction to the affirmations that you are putting forth here,
1 perhaps, I might agree to that extent. But such a policy did not exist as
2 a position or as an orientation.
3 Q. In what sense, if any, did it exist?
4 A. I've told you already several times that it did not exist.
5 Q. Well, you've told me several times, there wasn't an explicit
6 policy then you said, "The thesis that a state must be pure was never
7 verbalised." Now, we just looked at Mr. Krajisnik saying that everything
8 he did was for pure territories. To what extent did that reflect an
9 orientation towards the Muslims?
10 A. First of all, I don't think that what was meant here was
11 ethnically-pure territories. I don't know what the background or the
12 context in which these words were uttered was. The section we heard was
13 inadequate and inadequately clear in order for me to be able to say that
14 this was, in fact, the position in no uncertain terms.
15 MR. TIEGER: That's all, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
17 Before Mr. Stewart, I'll give the Defence the opportunity to
18 cross-examine the witness, I'd like to raise one practical issue. The
19 witness, not necessarily be present or absent, I don't think it makes much
21 Mr. Trbojevic, if you would allow us for just a few minutes.
22 One of the issues we should deal with is a schedule he had for the
23 undecided 92 bis applications. The Chamber is a bit concerned about the
24 92 bis applications, they are pending for a very, very long time, at least
25 as far as I remember, the sixth motion dates back from 2002 when you were
1 not even involved, Mr. Stewart. The seventh from somewhere mid-2003, and
2 the eighth from, I think it was January 2004. Perhaps I could hand out
3 just a schedule of -- yes, if that could be given to the parties, one for
4 the Defence, one's for the Prosecution.
5 As usual, the 92 bis witnesses are split up to some extent, in
6 batches, so that we can deal with it. But of course we couldn't deal with
7 92 bis applications in a more -- or stretched them and delay them for such
8 a long time then finally the Prosecution's case would be finished and then
9 we are still dealing with 92 bis applications.
10 Therefore, this is the next batch the Chamber would like to
11 present to you to -- there will be another batch which will be a batch of
12 experts but this is the one at hand at this moment where pages are
13 mentioned. These are not the highlighted pages but are pages of the
14 material as presented. For example, if I draw your attention to the 1006,
15 that's the semi-ultimate transcript, that's the second from the bottom,
16 you would see that it's approximately not more than 50 per cent which is
17 highlighted, so these numbers cover the pages in total and not necessarily
18 the relevant pages. Similar, for example, is the cover pages for
20 The Chamber would suggest that by Friday, the 22nd of April,
21 that's a little bit more than two weeks from now when the Defence would
22 make submissions and then the OTP would respond not later than the 29th of
24 I just put it in front of you.
25 Is there any comments on that? Mr. Tieger, any problem with it?
1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm not aware of any at the moment. I
2 actually had some discussions with Mr. Gaynor about that earlier today,
3 but I should probably caution that I'd be much more comfortable making a
4 representation about this after consultation with Mr. Gaynor who's been
5 working on it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Mr. Stewart. You would also need the next break or -- because I'm
8 aware that Ms. Loukas is also heavily involved in 92 bis.
9 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, sorry, did Your Honour say the next
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, to comment on the time schedule.
12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, with the greatest respect, a person
13 needs a little bit more than the next break to deal with this sort of
14 thing. It's -- of course, the Prosecution don't have any particular
15 problem that immediately springs to mind because all they'll have to do is
16 respond to our response to their application which has been put together
17 in the first place. But Mr. Tieger, quite reasonably, asks for the
18 opportunity of consulting his team. But the idea that I can consult
19 Ms. Loukas in the next break over all this material and discuss with her
20 what's involved with these witnesses is simply ridiculous, with respect.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, it could not come as a surprise, could
23 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it does not come as a surprise, with
25 JUDGE ORIE: More than one week ago, you were informed about that
1 the next batch had to be established and what would be in that batch and
2 now to say, "Well this is all new," is --
3 MR. STEWART: I didn't say that, Your Honour, with respect, I
4 didn't say that at all. I sent an e-mail to the Trial Chamber -- I was
5 presented in about three lines with a suggested time table. I wrote back
6 and said in very clear but I hope entirely courteous terms that the time
7 table suggested was simply completely unrealistic. And it is, Your
8 Honour. And I would ask, by the way, for the witness to leave. I do
9 not -- I suggest it's not appropriate for the witness to sit here. He
10 understands English very well and it's embarrassing for him and it's not
11 appropriate. We do have some issues to resolve, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't foresee that this would be your reaction.
13 Perhaps we spend some time at the beginning of the next session and pay
14 proper attention to it and that you will be allowed -- unless you say I
15 can deal with it in five minutes, then we'll ask the witness to leave the
16 courtroom and -- but I do not want the -- a discussion to take the next
17 half an hour or three quarters of an hour and in the meantime, losing time
18 for examination.
19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, what I will undertake to do, of course,
20 I will, of course, speak, if I can get a hold of her, which expect to do.
21 I will of course speak to Ms. Loukas in the next break, because that will
22 at least enable to me to report as constructively as I can, which is aim,
23 at the beginning of the next session, as Your Honour helpfully offers.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then let's do that and then Mr. Stewart, are
25 you ready to start cross-examination of Mr. Trbojevic?
1 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then please proceed.
3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I did wonder whether I -- a lectern
4 could be brought across the court with a warning to the usher not to break
5 his leg on my power lead.
6 MR. TIEGER: We'll give you the fresh lectern.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart:
8 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, it's correct, isn't it, that you had no personal
10 contact with Mr. Krajisnik before May 1992 except in the rather unusual
11 sense that you had been a judge in a case in which Mr. Krajisnik was one
12 of the defendants.
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. And you arrived, you told Their Honours, in Pale, shortly after
15 the Republika Srpska Assembly which had been held, although not in Pale,
16 on the 12th of May, 1992.
17 A. I arrived, I believe, on the 20th of May.
18 Q. And it was, at that time, a matter of some urgency and importance
19 for Republika Srpska to constitute a fully-functioning government, wasn't
21 A. That's right. With your permission, just a minute ago, I said I
22 had not seen Mr. Krajisnik before 1992 - I said that in response to your
23 question - which is not entirely true. We started meeting in the course
24 of 1990 just prior to the first multi-party elections in Bosnia and
1 Q. Let me just pause and get the questions straight, Mr. Trbojevic,
2 so we can go as clearly as possible through it. I had asked you whether
3 you had had any -- well I put it to you, you'd had no personal contact
4 with Mr. Krajisnik and then a moment ago, you were qualifying the answer
5 by saying that you'd said you'd not seen Mr. Krajisnik, not exactly
6 literally what you'd said, but your -- so I would like to ask you, then,
7 if you're going on to describe some sort of meeting or contact with
8 Mr. Krajisnik in the course of 1990, to indicate to the Trial Chamber very
9 clearly the nature of that contact. What was your first contact with
10 Mr. Krajisnik?
11 A. I don't know exactly what was the first contact; however, the
12 elections were being prepared and Mr. Koljevic called me to ask for my
13 permission to be placed on the ticket of the SDS in that election.
14 Then, under those circumstances, we met several times, not just
15 the two of us but a group of people including Mr. Koljevic, Karadzic,
16 Dukic, Professor Lejovac, somewhat later, Mrs. Plavsic as well, and so on.
17 Q. So in the period before you arrived in Pale in May 1992, is it
18 nevertheless correct that you had never had any meeting with Mr. Krajisnik
19 at which just you and he had been present?
20 A. The elections were held in late 1990. Mr. Krajisnik became
21 president of the Assembly. I was an MP. We did see each other at the
22 sessions of the deputies' club, Assembly sessions. Several times, the two
23 of us met in his office when he was the president of the Assembly
24 discussing some current issues.
25 Q. So you are talking -- in that last answer, are you talking about
1 occasions in his office when it was just the two of you?
2 A. In his office, yes, just the two of us.
3 Q. And were these relatively routine meetings that a deputy might
4 have with the speaker or president of the Assembly of which he was a
6 A. Without any significant importance or weight.
7 Q. Were those meetings in Mr. Krajisnik's office the only occasions
8 that you say that you and he met just the two of you for, and I'm leaving
9 aside, I'm leaving for the moment before you went to Pale and before 1992?
10 A. I think so.
11 Q. And those other meetings that you referred to when you described a
12 group of people including Mr. Koljevic, Karadzic, Dukic,
13 Professor Lejovac, later Mrs. Plavsic, was this an informal group or was
14 this some group that had a title or a designated structure?
15 A. In certain situations, it was an informal group. In some
16 situations, we met as the deputies' club of the Serbian Democratic Party.
17 And in some situations, it was a meeting which was called "party's
18 council" or something like that, perhaps "council for relations with other
19 political parties," but it did have a title. And Dr. Lejovac chaired that
20 council. In those meetings, there would be 30 or more people. I
21 occasionally attended those meetings.
22 Q. So the meetings that you have mentioned then at which those
23 particular people were present, as you described, Dr. Karadzic,
24 Professor Lejovac and so on, those were meetings of a larger number of
25 people but including some or, on occasions, all of those people; is that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
2 A. Yes. The council existed before the elections. I think that
3 afterwards, there were no meetings of that council, at least I did not
4 attend any.
5 Q. There was no -- there was no small group which included
6 Mr. Koljevic, Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Dukic, and you, was there, no group of six
7 or ten people?
8 A. No, it did not exist as a group that met several times.
9 Q. Now, that -- that group of people that you've said including, and
10 you said, Koljevic, Karadzic, Dukic, Lejovac, later Mrs. Plavsic, at that
11 time, Mr. Krajisnik, was he a member of that group, as you have described
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You didn't -- up to the time when you came to Pale in May 1992,
15 you didn't, in any serious sense, know Mr. Krajisnik personally, did you?
16 A. I have known him from the time when we had court proceedings, when
17 we were preparing for elections. I also know him from the period after
18 the Assembly was constituted, when we had some activities on the eve of
19 the war operations, when we were discussing such issues as will Bosnia and
20 Herzegovina seek independence or not. So occasionally, we would meet in
21 smaller or larger groups to discuss these issues and both Mr. Krajisnik
22 and I would be present. So these were our contacts when both of us
23 attended the same sessions.
24 Q. What I'm putting to you, Mr. Trbojevic, you were not -- you were
25 not -- you and Mr. Krajisnik were not personal friends, you were not close
1 acquaintances, you didn't have any particular knowledge or involvement in
2 each other's personal or family lives in any way, did you?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. So coming, then, back to May 1992, when you arrived in Pale, you
5 agreed that it was an urgent matter to constitute a fully-functioning
6 government for Republika Srpska, and the position at that time of conflict
7 was that there was not a huge pool of well-qualified candidates to form
8 such a government, was there?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And Mr. Trbojevic, this doesn't imply any disparagement or attack
11 on your own qualifications, but your arrival in Pale as somebody with some
12 political experience and your legal experience and qualifications, meant
13 that you were a -- a very useful person for Republika Srpska to have
14 arrive in Pale, weren't you?
15 A. I suppose that, yes.
16 Q. And it's correct, isn't it, that Dr. Karadzic, for example, was
17 keen to use whatever powers he had to appoint you to get you into the
18 government without waiting for the next Assembly to go through the
20 A. I have no knowledge regarding that specific issue.
21 Q. You don't know any details yourself, do you, about consultation of
22 Dr. Karadzic by Mr. Djeric in relation to your proposed appointment?
23 MR. TIEGER: Well, Your Honour, I mean --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER: The evidence was -- the evidence that Mr. Stewart is
1 clearly referring to was regarding Mr. Djeric's consultation with
2 Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik.
3 JUDGE ORIE: May I just -- do you intend to say that Mr. Stewart
4 is not reflecting the testimony given by the witness?
5 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, correct.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You also could say it in a different way, that
7 Mr. Stewart is challenging the evidence given by the witness. Would that
8 be what you are doing, Mr. Stewart?
9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, if I were to put to the witness
10 that --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think that the matter is clear and Mr. Stewart
12 challenges, perhaps, some of the evidence of the witness. I expect him to
13 do that on a more regular basis. He does not confront the witness with
14 his testimony, he's just putting similar matters in a different way.
15 Mr. Stewart, you may proceed.
16 MR. STEWART:
17 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, it is correct, isn't it, that you don't know
18 details of the consultation of Dr. Karadzic by Mr. Djeric in relation to
19 your proposed appointment, do you?
20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm sorry.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger, perhaps you first refer us to the
22 lines you have in mind because you certainly will have them somewhere in
23 your mind. I think it's Monday.
24 MR. TIEGER: Correct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you have a page number for me.
1 MR. TIEGER: I only have the -- I don't have the LiveNote from
2 Monday, unfortunately, so let me correlate that quickly.
3 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is I don't have the LiveNote because we
4 were in a different courtroom.
5 MR. TIEGER: I can find it. Your Honour, it can be found at -- it
6 starts at page -- I'm sorry, I found it quickly in both versions without
7 referring to the pages, I can find it in a LiveNote -- in the regular
8 version if somebody had it, but I don't. But I can tell the Court
9 therefore several references to such consultations and not one of them
10 failed to reflect reference to both people.
11 MR. STEWART: If Mr. Tieger's going to tell me I've got it wrong,
12 he'd better tell me where it comes from.
13 JUDGE ORIE: If you give two or three literal words in the right
14 sequence, Madam Registrar could help us out ...
15 MR. TIEGER: "For their consent" is such a word, we found it here.
16 That's 11.406 and the preceding pages, I believe. I'm sorry, 11.406 and
17 the subsequent pages.
18 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour, where am I to find this? I --
19 this is --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have LiveNote, Mr. --
21 MR. STEWART: I thought the problem was we were in a different
22 court or.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether you have it on your computer or
25 MR. STEWART: Sorry, I thought there was an insuperable problem.
1 If there isn't --
2 JUDGE ORIE: I have -- I have a problem in -- if you search for
3 the line "Krajisnik gave their consent."
4 MR. TIEGER: Correct.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then you are about at the right place.
6 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I need to get to the day,
7 first of all.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Monday, I said that already.
9 MR. STEWART: Yes, but how do I do that.
10 MR. TIEGER: Monday, April 4th.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Monday is not on your -- it was usually not on mine.
12 That's the reason why I took the paper version, because I knew --
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I've got the paper version. But I've
14 got the paper version numbered one to whatever it was on Monday. If
15 somebody gives me that page reference then I'm there.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to be practical.
17 MR. STEWART: We do not yet have the continuous transcript,
18 Your Honour, as I think Your Honour understands.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is approximately the 30th page because the
20 numbered transcript starts at 377 and it's on page 40 --
21 MR. STEWART: I do have a solution, I can get to it on my own
22 laptop but it does take a second or so. I just found it on my laptop at
23 the precise moment I've been handed the hard copy:
24 Sorry, may I ask through Your Honour to Mr. Tieger where I am
1 MR. TIEGER: If you're on the LiveNote with pages in approximately
3 MR. STEWART: I've been handed 11.406, 11.407 and 11.408.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I think it starts on 11.407.
5 MR. TIEGER: The first reference I see on those pages on the
6 transcript on the screen is at 11.406 at line 4.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The witness was confronted with part of his
9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I can't for the life of me see in any
10 way in which I have misstated or misrepresented any evidence or question
11 to the witness in the course of my cross-examination. For the moment, I'm
12 simply not understanding the objection.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's be --
14 MR. TIEGER: I would be happy to --
15 JUDGE ORIE: From the concern at least as far as this testimony as
16 detailed are concerned, is that the witness told us that he heard from
17 Mr. Djeric that he got the consent. Whether you would consider that would
18 be sufficient detail, perhaps on the basis of that, Mr. Stewart, you could
19 -- whether Mr. Djeric told him when and how, I mean further details are
21 MR. TIEGER: I'm focussing, Your Honour, on the following: If I
22 related that you and Judge Hanoteau had told me something and I said that
23 several times about the -- my understanding of this communication that
24 someone had with somebody else, and then questions arose about what Judge
25 Orie -- or what you had heard Judge Orie said to that person, I think
1 that's a misleading characterisation of that event.
2 MR. STEWART: This is absolutely not so. No, Your Honour, may I
3 give a simple illustration, Your Honour. In the absence of my --
4 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. Mr. Stewart. Mr. Stewart, let's do the
5 following: You know now where the sensitive issue is as far as Mr. Tieger
6 is concerned. If you can deal with the matter and otherwise I'll put some
7 questions to the witness, whether, for example, whether he knows any
8 further details on what he told us and otherwise, we'll not -- we're not
9 going to spend half an hour on this issue.
10 So if you would --
11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, with respect, we've wasted about 10
12 minutes on this issue already.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the reason I want to --
14 MR. STEWART: Yes. But, Your Honour, please, I must be, with
15 respect, I must be entitled to say this: There is no impropriety, there
16 is nothing wrong, whatever, with any question that I have put and I would
17 like to illustrate it this way. If the witness had said six times that he
18 was in Rome on a particular day, it would still be entirely legitimate for
19 him to put to him that he wasn't. What wouldn't be legitimate would be
20 for me to say that he had said that he was not in Rome because that would
21 be a misrepresentation of his evidence. But what has happened here over
22 10 minutes of wasted time that a futile objection -- Your Honour, I must
23 be entitled to proceed with my cross-examination.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that is what I'm allowing you to do and I think
25 what you just said is mainly in line with what I said before.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I just add this, that references to
3 me having regard to the sensitive issue as far as Mr. Tieger is
4 concerned --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, you may now proceed in
6 your cross-examination. Please proceed.
7 MR. STEWART:
8 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, you do not know the details of consultation of
9 Mr. Karadzic by Mr. Djeric in relation to your proposed appointment as
10 Deputy Prime Minister, do you?
11 A. I don't.
12 Q. In fact, is it correct that all you know is that, as far as
13 Dr. Karadzic is concerned, he was -- he approved, he consented?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Were you told by anybody that Mr. Krajisnik had been specifically
16 consulted in relation to your proposed appointment?
17 A. The way I understood what Mr. Djeric had said, he had the approval
18 of both of them.
19 Q. It's just that now I am very specifically quoting to you your own
20 evidence, Mr. Trbojevic, and I'm reading line by line, His Honour Judge
21 Orie said the question is just: "Did Mr. Djeric tell you that he got the
22 consent of Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik," and your answer was, "In all
23 honesty, I cannot make any categorical statements to you now. What was
24 important for me was that this consent was there and that I would stay
25 there and do something. Now whether he got the content before talking to
1 me or after that or whether it happened the same day, I really cannot ..."
2 So your answer started, "Though I cannot make any categorical statements
3 to you ..." So --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please quote the whole of it, Mr. Stewart.
5 Also the lines remaining.
6 MR. STEWART: "Please," - this is Your Honour -"Please, I
7 precisely told you that I was not asking whether they got, he got the
8 content but whether he told you that he had." Witness: "He certainly
9 said that but I cannot tell you now whether he said that before talking to
10 me or afterwards. So he told you that he got the consent of Mr. Krajisnik
11 and Mr. Karadzic" -- sorry that's Your Honour again.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. STEWART: "So he told you he got the consent of Mr. Krajisnik
14 and Mr. Karadzic."
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could Your Honour please instruct the counsel to
16 slow down a bit.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I'll invite him, I'll invite him.
18 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Now, part of your previous answer was, you said, "What was
20 important for me was that this consent was there and that I would stay
21 there and do something."
22 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, introducing all that passage with any -- with
23 saying that you cannot make any categorical statements, is this the
24 position: You simply -- you knew that nobody who might matter at all was
25 opposed to your appointment?
1 A. That's correct.
2 Q. And you didn't know, if I can just -- you didn't know of any
3 specific discussion that had taken place between Mr. Djeric and
4 Mr. Krajisnik; that's correct, isn't it?
5 A. I was sitting in the conference room whereas Djeric was upstairs
6 with -- where Krajisnik was and then he came down several minutes later.
7 And when I told him that I was surprised at how quickly the things were
8 solved, he told me in response to that that he had the approval from me
9 becoming Deputy Prime Minister. That's why I understood it as if the two
10 of them had both given their consent without having discussed the matter
11 that much.
12 Q. Do you know whether Dr. Koljevic was consulted?
13 A. I don't know for this specific instance.
14 Q. Did Dr. Karadzic -- start with Mr. Djeric. Did Mr. Djeric know
15 that Dr. Koljevic was a friend of your family?
16 A. I believe he did.
17 Q. So in the way things worked in what was, by that time, Republika
18 Srpska, it would have been natural for Mr. Djeric to at least have a word
19 with Dr. Koljevic about you; is that right?
20 A. That's right.
21 Q. You have no firsthand knowledge of how things were run in Pale in
22 the month before you arrived there, have you?
23 A. No, I don't.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Krajisnik, as the president of the Bosnia and Herzegovina
25 Assembly and then subsequently the Bosnian Serb Assembly, Republika Srpska
1 Assembly, he was an efficient, respected president of both bodies, wasn't
3 A. That's right.
4 Q. And would you agree that the Bosnian Serb Assembly, then the
5 Republika Srpska Assembly, as it would have become called, was at all
6 times a difficult body to manage?
7 A. It was difficult to manage, yes.
8 Q. And it contained, not perhaps uniquely to a parliament, but it did
9 contain members with very strong differing views, and particularly in
10 1992, during an exceptionally difficult time. That's right, isn't it?
11 A. Undoubtedly, there were people whose views and opinions differed.
12 Q. And very strongly differed.
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. And were frequently very strongly expressed.
15 A. There were tumultuous sessions.
16 Q. And would you agree that Mr. Krajisnik had to, as president of the
17 Assembly, had to employ skills of persuasion and management to enable this
18 Assembly to run effectively?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Would you also agree that he could not impose his views on the
21 Assembly but he had to use skills in that way to persuade deputies to
22 particular points of view?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. During the time that you were a member of the -- I'll say the Serb
25 Assembly to include it under both its slightly different titles. During
1 the time that you were a member of that Assembly, did it, as far s you
2 saw, operate for all its tumult according to democratic procedures and
4 A. Yes, it did.
5 Q. And, of course as you've described it, the SDS was in -- SDS
6 members were in overwhelming control of the voting within the Assembly,
7 weren't they?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. Are you aware of any instance of Mr. Krajisnik's view on any issue
10 simply being adopted by the Assembly without going through proper
11 parliamentary procedures?
12 A. I don't think I am.
13 Q. I want to ask you about government meetings. Mr. Krajisnik didn't
14 attend those meetings, did he?
15 A. I don't think he did in 1992.
16 Q. And were decisions at government meetings reached by consensus or,
17 failing consensus, by vote?
18 A. For the most part, by consensus.
19 Q. Was it -- well, first of all, was there ever at any government
20 meeting that you attended in 1992 an issue put to a vote?
21 A. It seems to me that the votes were not being calculated in order
22 to see how many votes were cast in favour and how many against, I don't
23 think so.
24 Q. No instructions were ever received from Mr. Krajisnik as to what
25 decisions should be taken by the government, were they?
1 A. As far as I know, they weren't.
2 Q. And when I say "instructions" I'll put a supplementary question.
3 No -- nothing like an instruction in the sense of a very firm indication
4 as to the preferred decision was ever received from Mr. Krajisnik in
5 relation to potential decisions by the government, was it?
6 A. There was none.
7 Q. Can you recall any report ever being received from Mr. Krajisnik
8 by members of the government in advance of its meetings?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Can you recall any -- after any government meeting, can you recall
11 any subsequent complaint or attempt by Mr. Krajisnik to interfere or
12 overrule or reverse any decision taken at a government meeting?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Can you recall any attempt by Mr. Krajisnik to persuade the
15 government to change its decision?
16 A. No.
17 Q. At the time you arrived in May 1992, Mr. Djeric [sic] -- I'm not
18 going to shrink from the description of Mr. Krajisnik as one of the
19 Bosnian Serb leaders, as a simple label, I'm going to include that in what
20 I put to you. But as one of the Bosnian Serb leaders, what did you see as
21 Mr. Krajisnik's areas of responsibility in his work when you arrived,
22 after you'd had a few days to assess the situation, but when you arrived
23 in Pale in May 1992?
24 A. I can give you a very concrete -- a concrete answer to your
25 question. The situation was such that we were amid a war that was taking
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 full swing. The president of the Assembly was expected to get in touch
2 with the MPs and to enable the Assembly to convene. How things
3 functioned, however, I cannot tell you because I do not have firsthand
4 knowledge. The fact is that the Assembly convened, the sessions were
5 held, but how specifically the contacts were maintained, I cannot tell
6 you. I personally don't know.
7 Q. Were you in any position to assess the amount of work that was
8 required to be put in by Mr. Krajisnik as president of the Assembly in
9 relation to affairs of the Assembly? I cannot assess that with any
10 precision. There was a service there assisting the Assembly, that was the
11 secretariat of the Assembly. They had communication devices, drivers.
12 The fact is that Assembly sessions were often convened at different
13 locations up at Hotel Bistrica and then at Hotel Jahorina, then at the
14 building of the Famos company, in Bijeljina, Bileca, Zvornik, I believe
15 then in Banja Luka, Prijedor. All this caused difficulties in terms of
16 providing accommodation for the MPs, meals, means of transport,
17 photocopying facilities for the Assembly session materials and so on. The
18 Assembly also met in Samac, Sanski Most.
19 At first, it seemed expedient because the people had occasion in
20 this way to see their MPs, their representatives. In time, it all
21 developed into something that was not regarded with a favourable eye by
22 the people because you would see luxurious cars driving in, the MPs
23 surrounded by different drivers and other staff, and they all seemed to be
24 alienated, very far detached from the people themselves. But all of this
25 was necessary to enable the Assembly to function.
1 Q. You've described, and I don't think there is any danger of this
2 being regarded as a misrepresentation, you've described Mr. Krajisnik's
3 efficiency in your evidence, would you agree that Mr. Krajisnik was always
4 also a very hard worker?
5 A. Yes, I would.
6 Q. And from your observations would you also accept that
7 Mr. Krajisnik's work as president of the Assembly in May and June and
8 subsequently, 1992, was, for any normal person, a full-time job?
9 A. Even more than a full-time job.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I'm looking at the clock. Could you try
11 to find a moment within the next two minutes to -- for a break.
12 MR. STEWART: Certainly, Your Honour. I'll put one question and
13 then it will conveniently -- it can be followed up after the break,
14 Your Honour.
15 Q. Mr. Krajisnik's other main area of responsibility in his work was
16 his involvement in international negotiations, wasn't it?
17 A. That's right.
18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour that's something to be better pursued
19 probably after the break.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness out
21 the courtroom.
22 [The witness stands down]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, just to avoid whatever misunderstanding,
24 when I said something about the sensitivities of Mr. Tieger, it was not my
25 intention to invite you to find final guidance for your cross-examination
1 the sensitivities of Mr. Tieger, but sometimes knowing the sensitivities
2 of someone, a question can be put in a way which leads to exactly the same
3 result without causing any reaction or response which does not assist the
4 hearing of the evidence.
5 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I appreciate that and I apologise
6 if I was over robust in some of my responses.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until 6.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 5.41 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, you said you'd like to consult on the 92
11 bis timing because that's the only thing we're talking about is timing,
13 MR. TIEGER: The timing is fine except that Friday the 29th is a
14 holiday so we would be happy to respond on the following Monday.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you're having the advantage of celebration of
16 the birthday of the Dutch queen.
17 Yes, Mr. Stewart, would you like to make any ...
18 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, briefly this. I did manage to
19 consult Ms. Loukas as I hoped I would. The -- Your Honour, our reaction
20 to this is not to say that the timetable itself is unreasonable but to
21 wonder whether we might just simply have the opportunity, because I was
22 having to discuss this over the telephone with Ms. Loukas, as well,
23 whether we might have the opportunity of considering it overnight and
24 letting the Trial Chamber know tomorrow. But our reaction at the moment
25 is not -- is not to look at it and say that it is unreasonable and any
1 more unmanageable than everything else we have to do, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we resolve it in the following way, of
3 course the Chamber heard your concerns. I mean they are clearly, even if
4 not always in your words, then sometimes even in the tone you are
5 speaking. If you would -- if we would now decide that you get at least --
6 I don't know whether it makes you happy or not and you're not obliged to
7 use it, but to at least have the weekend after the -- what is it, the --
8 let me just have a look --
9 MR. STEWART: Friday the 22nd.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Friday the 22nd, if you would say, well, a
11 couple of days extra would certainly suit us, then we could decide it this
12 way and then, for example, grant you until Tuesday, and then -- unless you
13 say I'd rather have the deadline before the weekend.
14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour is absolutely right, there is certain
15 ambivalence about that particular issue, always.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. And then, of course, if there were something
17 totally unexpected, then you could come back to it. But we'd rather
18 settle the matter and see whether we could proceed.
19 MR. STEWART: Yes. Your Honour, may I mention a couple of things,
20 briefly. So far as the responses to the -- those two motions on
21 protective measures, obviously I say nothing more about the details of
22 those in open session, but so far as those two responses are concerned,
23 Your Honour, those are done but we -- I haven't signed them and they have
24 technically missed the filing date -- filing time. Would it be helpful --
25 again, if it makes no difference to the Trial Chamber, is there any
1 helpfulness to the Trial Chamber in supplying copies in the course of this
2 evening or is first thing tomorrow morning the same for practical
4 JUDGE ORIE: I think first thing tomorrow morning, because I would
5 not invite anyone to work later on so if it's there tomorrow early in the
6 morning, especially, I think Witness 31 is important in view of this case.
7 MR. STEWART: More imminent, I suppose, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll hear then first thing tomorrow
10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I -- well, I apologise but in a sense
11 don't apologise. But I am going to be make one more further short but
12 firm application to be given a small amount more time to deal with
13 Mr. Bjelobrk, Your Honour. And I read, of course, what Your Honour said
14 in the transcript, but Your Honour, the simple practical position is that
15 I have to deal with Mr. Bjelobrk, I have to deal with the responses, and
16 these are non-delegable matters, Your Honour, as it works out. I have to
17 get in the responses to the Prosecution's response on the appeal against
18 Your Honour's decision in relation to the -- that has to be in tomorrow,
19 that's the last day for that. I have had to do the responses on the
20 matters I just mentioned, Your Honour, because other people are tied up on
21 a million other things. I do have to prepare for Mr. Trbojevic, and may I
22 just say, Your Honour, in relation to the lengthy delay in relation to
23 Mr. Bjelobrk, there was one aspect which in a sense is nobody's fault but
24 it -- it delayed it for a month which was that I was waiting for a
25 response from Mr. Hannis to my e-mail and what happened was that the
1 information I was waiting for got included on a CD. I didn't realise that
2 it was on the CD and the person dealing with the CD very understandably
3 didn't realise that it had anything to do with what I had e-mailed
4 Mr. Hannis about. It was just one of those things, Your Honour, and the
5 result was that it was just before we resumed the hearings when I found
6 that this item that Mr. Hannis had sent was on the CD.
7 It's nobody's fault, Your Honour, it's just one of those things
8 and then we've been involved in a very heavy programme, and so has
9 Ms. Cmeric which has to deal with a whole issue of B/C/S material which
10 Your Honour knows is the whole question of Mr. Krajisnik's involvement --
11 JUDGE ORIE: I think we will deal with Mr. Bjelobrk tomorrow, and
12 let me just confer for one second.
13 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stewart, you are due for tomorrow; if it
15 would be Monday, the Chamber would accept that.
16 MR. STEWART: Every little helps and thank you, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then Mr. Usher, could you please escort
18 Mr. Trbojevic into the courtroom. And it's understood now that you have
19 until Tuesday after the Friday of the 22nd of April as indicated on the
20 paper for the 92 bis.
21 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Trbojevic, our apologies that we had to have you
24 wait for a few seconds -- well, a few minutes, even.
25 Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
1 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Trbojevic, I just asked you then before the break about
3 Mr. -- briefly about Mr. Krajisnik's other area of responsibility. The
4 international negotiations were, at this time, critically important for
5 all of you involved with Republika Srpska, weren't they?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. Do you -- you weren't, yourself, directly involved in those
8 negotiations, were you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. But you knew that Dr. Karadzic was involved, that Dr. Koljevic was
11 involved, that Mr. Krajisnik was involved; you knew that, did you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And Mr. Buha, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, was frequently
14 present at such talks as well. You knew that, did you?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. So Mr. Krajisnik had his job as the president of the Assembly and
17 he had his role in the international negotiations. Those two jobs
18 together were far greater than a full-time job for a normal person working
19 anything like normally, weren't they?
20 A. I agree.
21 Q. Did either Dr. Plavsic or Dr. Koljevic -- Mrs. Plavsic,
22 Dr. Koljevic, have any equivalent specific functions that you saw as being
23 as demanding as Mr. Krajisnik's work in those two areas?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Would it be a fair description to say that Mr. Krajisnik had a
1 whole extra job as president of the Assembly above anything that
2 Mrs. Plavsic or Dr. Koljevic had?
3 A. It would be.
4 Q. And both Mr. Krajisnik's jobs as they've just been summarised,
5 they were both, weren't they, high-profile jobs publicly?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. And they -- they raised Mr. Krajisnik's importance in the public
9 A. Naturally.
10 Q. Now, you describe or have described a number of people as
11 reporting and/or taking instructions -- reporting to and/or taking
12 instructions from Mr. Krajisnik and I want to ask you first, please,
13 Mr. Trbojevic, about Mr. Stanisic. The -- and first of all, I wonder if
14 you might be handed a copy of the B/C/S version of your interview in May
15 of this year.
16 Your Honour, I've got and I think these were prepared in some sort
17 of consultation between Mr. Caroline on the Prosecution side and
18 Ms. Cmeric, copies of this interview that follow, I hope, the page
19 numbering that the Trial Chamber has, that has the additional benefit of
20 having lines down -- line numbers down the side as well. May I hand those
21 up, Your Honour. There is lots and lots of copies in B/C/S. Probably
22 rather more than there are B/C/S readers in Court to get the full benefit.
23 Your Honour, there are -- there are at least three versions of the
24 transcript of this interview because there is the English version with the
25 continuous numbering continued on from the March interview, there's the
1 English version with the separate numbering of the May transcript, and of
2 course there is the B/C/S version. But, Your Honour, by dint of some very
3 good support work, I should be in a position to give the page references
4 to all of those versions so whoever has got whatever version, they should
5 get the page reference from me as we go along.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to keep it simple. If there would be a
7 possibility to use the page numbering starting at page 1 again on May
8 2004, and I do understand that the final version that is -- and that's
9 also the reason why I'm insisting on that, the final version provided to
10 the Registry, that's therefore the copy that will be in evidence also
11 contains the line numbers.
12 Let me just have a look once at the copy that has been provided to
13 the Registry. Yes, to the extent possible, at least for the English
14 version, Mr. Stewart, we work from a copy which -- well, we have two
15 different numbers, numberings as well, one line different. To the extent
16 possible, would you please work from the copy with lines numbered and
17 starting at page 1, again, on the 4th of May.
18 I notice that there is then one or two lines difference with the
19 copies provided to us, but we'll overcome that.
20 MR. STEWART: When Your Honour is talking about line numbering,
21 Your Honour is talking about the English text.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that goes from 1 to 49 on page 1.
23 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, I'm afraid for all the luxury re
24 of what I have got, the one thing I haven't got is the English version
25 with the line numbering on it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, we'll try to be as inventive as
2 possible. You just proceed and we'll find it.
3 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour. Yes. So what I'm going to
4 give you is the page numbering as Your Honour has requested if and the
5 B/C/S page numbering, and I can also on the B/C/S also give a -- a line
7 Q. So, Mr. Trbojevic, Your Honours, may we look at the very foot of
8 page 65 -- sorry, page 16, at the beginning of page 16, one, six, and in
9 the B/C/S, that is page 14 and it's around line 29 and what we get in the
10 English version is -- we've got Mr. Margetts asking, "Mandic's
11 associations were with people from the Sarajevo area, I presume." And
12 then you, Mr. Trbojevic, saying, "I have no idea." And then
13 Mr. Margetts's question is unintelligible, I'm sure that mean it's not
14 easy to hear rather than unintelligible in understanding, but Your Honour,
15 I -- I'm afraid I'm going to invite the witness to read this bit of the
16 B/C/S because I was informed that there was potentially a significant
17 discrepancy between the B/C/S and the English versions here. So if I
18 could invite the witness to read Mandic's associations, if that appears
19 as -- in the B/C/S as an equivalent.
20 Mr. Trbojevic, do you see a question by Mr. Margetts, SM, that
21 begins, "Mandic's associations were with people from the Sarajevo
22 area ..." Do you see such a question?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. I wonder if you could just read the next few lines until, please,
25 I stop you starting with that, if you could read out loud, please.
1 A. My reply is, "I have no idea. I don't know what he did at all. I
2 know that some vehicles were transferred. To what extent he participated
3 in that, to what extent did Stanisic, you know, the Golfs. "
4 MR. STEWART: It appears, Your Honour, there seems to be no
5 equivalent of "beside these activities, judicial activities." The answer
6 seemed to be much more compressed than what we see in the English
8 JUDGE ORIE: I'm now reading the English transcript. I didn't
9 listen well, Mr. Stewart. Is everything that was said in English, do we
10 find that on the transcript or ...
11 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, I think in a similar form, of
12 course, because there is always translation discrepancies, in a similar
13 form. Everything that was said on the transcript through the interpreters
14 today appears. Yes, it's that there's more, which is strange.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. STEWART: This particular point may not matter, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Of course one of the issues might be that what is
18 qualified as "unintelligible," whether that calls cover all of it. That's
19 not entirely clear to me.
20 MR. STEWART: May I say, joking apart, it is a slight concern,
21 after all, when ...
22 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any -- how important it is for the parties
23 if we establish that at least there is some problem between the B/C/S and
24 the English. If it's of no importance to either of the parties we could
25 take it out.
1 MR. TIEGER: I don't think it has particular significance. I
2 think that the discrepancy -- but -- doesn't -- doesn't dramatically
3 affect it. But in any event, I understand the English to be a
4 translation, on-the-spot translation of the B/C/S that was just read and
5 certainly I think the translation we have available here in court is more
7 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I -- on that particular point, I
8 accept that and I don't it does have any great significance, Your Honour.
9 We can leave it as it is, Your Honour, for these purposes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine, please proceed.
11 MR. STEWART:
12 Q. So Mr. Trbojevic, then, it goes on then after that passage that
13 you've just read, and I'm now reading from the English, of course, so
14 Stanisic wasn't reporting as he should have done to Djeric and then you
15 were asked, "Who was he reporting to?" The structure as it should have
16 been, Mr. Trbojevic, was this, was it, that ministers were answerable in
17 the first place to the Prime Minister, Mr. Djeric, and -- well, I'll take
18 it in stages.
19 So in the first place, they were answerable to him, he was, if you
20 like, their immediate boss, wasn't he?
21 A. That's right.
22 Q. And then were they answerable through him to the Assembly or
23 and/or answerable directly to the Assembly?
24 A. They should have been accountable as members of the government
1 Q. And the suggestion there in the interview by Mr. Margetts that you
2 didn't dissent from apparently was that Mr. Stanisic wasn't reporting as
3 he should have, as a minister to Mr. Djeric. Are you able to give
4 specific or concrete examples of deficiencies in Mr. Stanisic's reporting
5 to Mr. Djeric?
6 A. I cannot.
7 Q. And where you said in this interview, "I can only suppose that
8 he," Stanisic, "was reporting to Karadzic and Krajisnik." That's -- that
9 appears, and would you confirm, that you have no knowledge that he was,
10 it's rather in the realm of speculation that he was reporting to them.
11 A. I said I suppose so.
12 Q. Is it correct that you don't actually have any knowledge of
13 specific facts to support the view that he was reporting to Karadzic and
15 A. I don't have specific facts.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, perhaps for your information, if, in a
17 written statement, we find that a witness supposes something and he
18 doesn't come up with any other facts, our experience allows us to assume
19 that if someone doesn't come up and if not in any other evidence that
20 comes up, that's at least this witness has no facts available to support
21 such a supposition. That's what is the supposition for. Yes.
22 MR. STEWART:
23 Q. Mr. Trbojevic, there was no obvious reason why Mr. Stanisic should
24 report to Mr. Krajisnik anyway at that time, is there?
25 A. There were many reasons.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. And -- well, if there were many, what were they?
2 A. Sir, the war was spreading. Yesterday, we saw a document here
3 showing that Stanisic held a meeting with the Ministry of the Interior in
4 Belgrade. It was not stated that Karadzic and Krajisnik didn't know what
5 Stanisic was doing. They needed to know what he was doing and it is
6 certain that he briefed them; however, I cannot prove that because I
7 wasn't present and I cannot document it.
8 Q. What -- so when you talk about Stanisic reporting to Krajisnik,
9 well, first of all, you're lumping Karadzic and Krajisnik together, are
10 you, as -- as people to whom Mr. Stanisic would report?
11 A. I'm not lumping them together, but I am deeply convinced that they
12 were both cooperating with Karadzic together -- with Stanisic --.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: "with Stanisic
15 Q. So can you indicate some specific matter on which Krajisnik,
16 Karadzic, and Stanisic cooperated?
17 A. I've said that I don't have any firsthand knowledge about it but I
18 know that on several occasions, Stanisic was in the building where
19 Krajisnik and Karadzic had their office and Krajisnik and Karadzic never,
20 themselves, remarked to the effect that Stanisic had failed to inform them
21 on any matter.
22 Q. In what -- in what circumstances would you have expected
23 Mr. Krajisnik to remark in your presence that Stanisic had failed to
24 inform him on any matter?
25 A. One could expect to hear that stated at the Assembly session or at
1 a meeting of the club of the deputies. At any rate, had this been the
2 case, one would know about it.
3 Q. What sort of issues do -- do you consider that Mr. Stanisic was
4 reporting to Mr. Krajisnik upon?
5 A. I cannot give an answer to this question. I can only go on
7 Q. Do you have any knowledge of any instructions or orders being
8 given by Mr. Krajisnik to Mr. Stanisic?
9 A. I do not.
10 Q. On the same page of that interview, or the transcript of the
11 interview following immediately on the passage that we've just been
12 looking at, you say or -- well, it's Mr. Margetts that says
13 actually, "Last time we spoke, we also dealt with the Ministry of Defence
14 and the Ministry of Justice. Were both Subotic and Mandic also reporting
15 to Karadzic and Krajisnik?" And Subotic, of course, was the Minister of
16 Defence and Mandic the Minister of Justice and you asked him to repeat it.
17 "Subotic and Mandic, were they also reporting to Krajisnik and
18 Karadzic?" And your answer was, "Subotic was for sure. And for Mandic, I
19 only guess. I have no evidence."
20 So you've no evidence as far as Mandic is concerned. Do you, or
21 did you, it was not all that long ago when you were interviewed here, did
22 you have evidence of Subotic reporting to Mr. Krajisnik?
23 A. Subotic did not conceal the fact at all. He was telling us and
24 showing us material and he would tell us -- he told us several times, "I
25 was over at my boss's," so that I know this for a fact about Subotic from
1 conversations with him.
2 Q. So when you say "he was telling us," who is "us" in that context?
3 A. On several occasions, he told so to me and Petar Markovic,
4 Minister of Finance, who he was on very good terms with.
5 Q. And you say, "He would show us material." So what sort of
6 material would he show you?
7 A. I did not bother to double-check and look at them.
8 Q. Well, can you give us some idea? You -- he was -- it was papers,
9 was it?
10 A. The -- there were many things in store, the decree on refugees,
11 then the instructions on the treatment of the refugees, then some orders
12 that were later to be signed by Karadzic, and then the relations between
13 the Ministry of Defence and the Main Staff because he wasn't really on
14 good terms with General Mladic. He informed us, because we were
15 discussing as to what sort of a position we should take vis-a-vis the Main
16 Staff and so on.
17 JNA officers would come who helped him drafting the law on All
18 People's Defence, the law on army. So he was carrying all this material
19 with him and probably there were some others as well.
20 Q. So the -- I'm just trying to get a picture, Mr. Trbojevic. So
21 the -- these occasions you describe when he was showing you papers and
22 you've summarised that decree on refugees, instructions, treatment of
23 refugees, and so on, are you talking about informal occasions when he
24 would have these discussions with you and show you these papers or more
25 formal meetings?
1 A. There were both types of meetings.
2 Q. Let's take the more formal ones first then. That type of meeting,
3 the more formal meeting, what category or what type of meeting -- what
4 meeting are you talking about when you refer to "more formal meetings"?
5 A. For example, two senior officers come from Belgrade with a bill on
6 All People's Defence and Colonel Subotic invites me, as a person with
7 expertise to review the bill. And I was to help him with the legal
8 wording of the bill to raise it to a level of an actual bill to be
9 presented first to the government and then the Assembly. And I considered
10 that sort of a meeting to be an official one.
11 Q. In the sense that --
12 A. There were several such bodies of regulations.
13 Q. So an official one in the sense that you felt yourself to be there
14 in your capacity as Deputy Prime Minister and he was there in his distinct
15 capacity as Minister of Defence.
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. And then --
18 A. And in this way, I would find out that he had informed Karadzic
19 and Krajisnik about these matters because he would say it there. Of
20 course, I don't believe that they had time at their hands to read about
21 100 pages of a bill, but that he had been passing, conveying information
22 to them is something that cannot be doubted.
23 Q. Was -- Mr. Trbojevic, this would be right, wouldn't it, that
24 you've talked about a bill, for example, to be presented first to the
25 government and then the Assembly. It would be natural and understandable
1 that he might discuss such an item with will Mr. Krajisnik, wouldn't it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The informal -- you talk about those -- you regarded those as
4 official meetings. You had also mention a few minutes ago that there was
5 a more informal type of meeting. Could you perhaps -- well not perhaps,
6 please give a description of such an informal meeting?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, if you would not mind since you are
8 changing a bit of the subject, I have some matters that are -- I would
9 like to have clarified by the witness.
10 Could you tell us, Mr. Trbojevic, if a bill would be adopted, what
11 was the procedure? Who would take the initiative, through what channels
12 it went until it was finally adopted? Just legislative procedure, that's
13 what I'm asking about.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The initiative can be launched by
15 the Assembly, by the government, by the president of the republic, and I
16 don't think this makes much of a difference. The draft is prepared by the
17 relevant ministry. The draft is then adopted by the government and is
18 then forwarded to the Assembly.
19 There is a legislative commission within the Assembly and the
20 constitutional commission as well, and both of them should examine the
21 bill and see whether there exists a ground in the Constitution for the
22 adoption of the law, that is to say, the adoption of the law would entail
23 general harmonisation because it's in contradiction with some of the
24 existing legislation that would then be changed. The government --
25 JUDGE ORIE: I was mainly interested in the procedure up until the
1 moment where the draft bill would be pending before the parliament. I
2 would have a few more questions in this respect.
3 You said the draft is prepared by the ministry. If the Assembly
4 would take the initiative, would the draft still be prepared by a ministry
5 and, if so, by what ministry?
6 A. The relevant ministry again.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If the Assembly did not take the initiative but if
8 the president or the government would take the initiative, would the draft
9 bill, before it was adopted by the government, would it be sent to anyone
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think so. I don't know that
12 there was any other body. The government had a commission which was
13 called the legal commission and provided legal expertise to any of the
14 ministries that needed assistance in drafting a piece of legislation or a
15 regulation. Regardless of the party launching the initiative for a bill,
16 the government was the proposing party in relation to the Assembly. Of
17 course an MP could also be the proposing party but this was never the
19 JUDGE ORIE: By the way, the bill you just talked about, was that
20 a proposal launched by the government, by the president, by the Assembly?
21 The one on which you are called to give your expertise.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know who gave the initiative
23 but it was necessary after the adoption of the Constitution to pass the
24 minimum legislation to ensure the functioning of the government, of the
25 ministries, of the central bank, the military. If it was the case that
1 the working material came from Belgrade, I don't know, then this must have
2 been done by Colonel Subotic through his personal offices with the Defence
3 Ministry there.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And I do understand that this working material came
5 from Belgrade.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this specific case, yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. After you had given your comments or after they
8 had used your expertise, what, then, happened with this working material
9 or - I don't know whether I should call it a draft, but ...
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The draft would be forwarded to the
11 government and then from there to the Assembly.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you were a member of the government at
13 that time.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Was the draft or the working material directly
16 presented to the government after you were called to give your expertise
17 or did it go any other route.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell you this with any
19 certainty. I know that Colonel Subotic and I commented upon the text and
20 I made some remarks and some associates of his were there as well.
21 Whether he took these remarks of mine into consideration and whether he
22 informed Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Krajisnik thereof, whether he received some
23 proposals there, I cannot tell you.
24 There must be a date which shows when this was adopted, when this
25 was passed. Although I know that the process was not a swift one, it
1 doesn't really matter, but this first draft was a very cumbersome one,
2 probably under the influence of the old regulations.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did, then, the government adopt the draft?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It must have.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apart from the comments and observations you
6 made which you may have found reflected in the final draft, I do not know,
7 tell us if you know, were there any other differences compared to what was
8 presented to you when you were consulted?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell you this specifically
10 at this time.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Was, then, the draft presented by the government to
12 the Assembly?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Must have been.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was there any specific procedure for that?
15 Would it be announced? Would it be sent to the speaker of the Assembly
16 for further distribution? How did that procedure of presenting a draft
17 bill to the Assembly go?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is sent to the secretariat of the
19 Assembly which, in addition to the proposed agenda, is delivered to all
20 those who are to attend.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, before a draft bill is adopted by the
22 government, and therefore before it's sent to the Assembly, was it usual
23 that the speaker of the Assembly would get a -- well, let's say a preview
24 on the not-yet-adopted draft bill?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think we sent it to the
1 speaker of the Assembly or the president of the republic. More often, the
2 Assembly would pass a conclusion obligating us to develop drafts for a
3 number of laws. Therefore, I suppose that Mr. Krajisnik would be
4 familiarised with the text of the bill delivered to the secretariat
5 through his secretary.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Would that be after the draft had been adopted by the
7 government or even before that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After.
9 JUDGE ORIE: After. Thank you.
10 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, in the light of these
11 questions, Mr. Witness, I wanted to know if the Prime Minister knew that
12 the Minister of Defence directly approached Mr. Krajisnik with this bill?
13 Was the Prime Minister aware of that?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Djeric was always directly informed
15 although Mr. Subotic addressed Mr. Karadzic directly rather than
16 Mr. Krajisnik, because they were seated close to each other. This meant
17 that they were both kept abreast, but it is definitely certain that Djeric
18 was kept abreast when talking about Subotic.
19 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] "Kept abreast" doesn't mean that
20 he agreed with this or he didn't think that this was a normal way of
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This means that he had a certain
23 amount of relevant information which would make him know what direction
24 the events at the Assembly session might take in order to avoid any
1 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Did the Prime Minister agree to
2 it that one of his ministers would directly discuss either with
3 Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Krajisnik?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He wasn't comfortable with that but
5 he couldn't do anything to change it.
6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Why? Why? So what was his
7 problem and how come he couldn't do anything about it, being the Prime
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The only thing he could have done
10 was to resign and to list all other reasons for that as well. He had no
11 other mechanism. How would he be able to prevent a certain minister from
12 going to see the president?
13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Does this mean that the Defence
14 Minister had a privileged status compared with the other ministers as he
15 was allowed to directly discuss with either Mr. Krajisnik or Mr. Karadzic?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Minister of Defence and Minister
17 of Police were, through institutional links, under the direct supervision
18 of the president of the republic.
19 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Rather than the Prime Minister in
20 that case?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
22 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, equality for the parties means, as it
24 turns out, that sometimes the Judges have some burning questions for the
25 witness during the examination.
1 We'll try to keep that within limits, just to ...
2 MR. STEWART: It's understood, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Trbojevic, we'd like to see you back
4 tomorrow in the afternoon, quarter past 2.00 in this same courtroom. We
5 will adjourn until then but not until after I have instructed you not to
6 speak with anyone about the testimony already given or still about to be
8 We adjourn.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I ask something?
10 JUDGE ORIE: For the record, I state that I missed that the
11 witness addressed me just at the moment when I adjourned.
12 Mr. Trbojevic, what would you like to say?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise for being too slow in
14 reacting. I wanted to ask you for a future timetable and whether the
15 previous schedule is still in force. Would I be able to return on the 9th
16 as scheduled? Rather, are we going to finish tomorrow because I planned a
17 number of engagements for next week.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand.
19 Mr. Stewart, I can imagine if I address you what your answer would
20 be that it very much depends on the Bench as well, but do you have any
21 idea how much time you would need for further cross-examination?
22 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I know it's going to come as
23 probably unhelpful, unwelcome answer to Mr. Trbojevic, and possibly to
24 Your Honours. It must be really in the balance whether I would finish
25 tomorrow so that his timetable could be adhered to or I wouldn't. It's
1 that sort of estimate, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Mr. Trbojevic, I asked Mr. Stewart, as you noticed, whether he
4 thought that he would be able, without too many questions of the Bench, to
5 finish by tomorrow and of course there should be a possibility for
6 re-examination as well, so therefore I'm afraid that I couldn't give you
7 the certainty you'd like to have. My question to you would be: Would
8 there be any possibility to make arrangements so that if we would not be
9 able to finish tomorrow, whether you would still be available next Monday?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have closing arguments in a case
11 before the court of Bosnia and Herzegovina scheduled for Monday. And it
12 is going to be quite difficult for me to call them and say that I'm unable
13 to attend.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand.
15 Madam Registrar, do you have a court schedule for all courtrooms
16 and, just to order to find out whether perhaps starting earlier tomorrow
17 would take some of the pressure away.
18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it would simply move it elsewhere, with
20 JUDGE ORIE: Not for the witness. I'm mainly looking at this
21 moment, for the witness.
22 All courtrooms are occupied tomorrow morning, so therefore that
23 would not bring a solution.
24 Mr. Trbojevic, if, unfortunately, we would not finish tomorrow,
25 would you be willing to appear voluntarily at a later stage to finish --
1 you would not finish, but to be available for the Defence to finalise
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Naturally. It is not a pleasure to
4 have to make the trip again, but I will be available, certainly.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and you would be willing to appear just upon the
6 indication of when that would be. Of course, I hope that it will not be
7 necessary but I'm afraid that at this moment, I couldn't give you any
8 further answer.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn for the second time until tomorrow,
11 quarter past 2.00, same courtroom and the parties are invited to see what
12 can be done to finish. If not, of course, we can't.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.10 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Friday, the 8th day of April,
15 2005, at 2.15 p.m.