1 Tuesday, 12 April 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, I still can say, not yet good
6 afternoon to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, Case Number
8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. Stewart, I do understand that you would like to address the
11 Chamber at the same time, but before giving you an opportunity to do so,
12 I'd like to ask the Registry and the technicians since we met for the
13 second day the same problems in the morning with the equipment, to start
14 testing a bit earlier, perhaps tomorrow and see whether we could start in
16 Mr. Stewart.
17 MR. STEWART: Yes, Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, very
18 briefly, it's this. That after the question of whether Mr. Trbojevic
19 should come back or give his evidence by videolink was raised by the
20 Trial Chamber on Friday, apparently immediate inquiries were made as to
21 relative costs of videolink and his coming back which was clearly
22 regarded as a material consideration although, naturally, it would not be
23 decisive consideration. It's this, Your Honour, that Your Honours have
24 in effect ruled on the matter which Your Honours raised and which was
25 briefly discussed in court on Friday in the way that the Defence wished.
1 So clearly I have no particular problem with that, Your Honour. It's
2 just that that is a decision among the factors as the ones I've mentioned
3 and there are other factors and I would invite the Trial Chamber at some
4 convenient point to express very clearly for the benefit of the Defence
5 and the public, indeed, and including in that the information as to the
6 relative costs because -- so these are all material considerations, it is
7 also important in this matter and for guidance in the future for such
8 matters for the Defence and the parties generally to understand as
9 clearly as possible what the Trial Chamber's approach has been in
10 reaching that decision in relation to Mr. Trbojevic, and how the relative
11 factors including the question of cost are balanced in relation to such
12 an issue.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We'll consider the matter and we'll see
14 whether this is something suitable for general considerations or whether
15 we would deal with it at a case-by-case basis including, of course, all
16 relevant circumstances of which costs is one.
17 Then -- yes, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into
18 the courtroom.
19 Mr. Stewart, could you give us any idea of how much time you
20 would still need for further cross-examination?
21 [The witness entered court]
22 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I was going to estimate about a
23 target and a hopeful, realistic target of finishing cross-examination by
24 the second break. Clearly that might be subject to the appropriate
25 adjustment in the light of the fact that it's just after 25 to 10.00.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Under the 60 per cent guidance, which the
2 Chamber is not very much inclined to apply at this moment, there would be
3 another half an hour. But like I said, the Chamber in view of the
4 circumstances is not very much inclined to stick to that guidance. On
5 the other hand, until the second break would take us two and a half more
6 hours. You are invited to see whether it could be a bit shorter and the
7 Chamber will certainly assist you in working as efficiently as possible.
8 MR. STEWART: I'm much obliged for that, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I say straightaway though, just to
11 inquire and it's appropriate to make this inquiry with the witness here,
12 to speed things along -- Your Honour, I hope the Trial Chamber has
13 received and is aware of the further material which Mr. Kljuic produced.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is aware of the arrival of the material.
15 MR. STEWART: May I inquire whether the Chamber has had any
16 opportunity whatever of considering that material? Well, has taken the
17 opportunity in considering that material.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I received it this morning and we have not had an
19 opportunity yet to go through it. And of course we have no translation
20 at all, but the Chamber will wait and see what the parties will do with
22 Mr. Harmon.
23 MR. HARMON: I have one matter to raise and that is that
24 yesterday, there was a cross-examination on a document, one of the notes
25 of Mr. Kljuic. And for purposes of this record, I think it should be
1 given an exhibit number if it hasn't already.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we -- yesterday, cross-examination was about I
3 think Exhibit 14.
4 MR. HARMON: 14, that's correct.
5 JUDGE ORIE: If I'm not mistaken. May I take it that you will
6 tender that?
7 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour, it was item 14 of that
8 batch, wasn't it. And yes, of course, I don't currently remember where
9 we got to in D numbers but Ms. Philpott is always on top of such things.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you assign a D number to item
11 14 of the -- well let's say the first batch of materials that Mr. Kljuic
12 had sent to the Tribunal.
13 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be Defence Exhibit D40.
14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the -- so far as the new material is
15 concerned, we received it yesterday afternoon. Your Honour appreciates
16 that it is quite naturally all in Mr. Kljuic's own language. We do have
17 some resources, of course, which enable us to cope with -- in addition to
18 Mr. Krajisnik who is not easy to get hold of in relation to such matters,
19 for obvious reasons -- we do have some resources, but Your Honour, they
20 are necessarily limited and our resources in that area do have other
21 urgent tasks at all times. So Your Honour, we have, we, the team, have
22 conducted a review of this material until sometime in the middle of the
23 night but it's not complete, Your Honour. And Mr. Krajisnik, to whom I
24 have handed the relevant new material in court this morning, has had no
25 opportunity whatever to deal with this matter.
1 Your Honour, it's not quite easy to know where to go here. The
2 -- at the very least, I hope that -- well, I know enough already from
3 what I have been told by Ms. Cmeric to know that a review by Mr.
4 Krajisnik of this material is not just a 15, 20 minute job.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's see, let's first continue
6 cross-examination and see whether -- how we will proceed in relation to
8 WITNESS: STJEPAN KLJUIC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]
11 Q. Mr. Kljuic, I'm going to have to ask you straightaway about this
12 material. Mr. Kljuic, you do not seem to have included in the previous
13 batch of items or the new batch of items -- I call them that -- of those
14 notes that you referred to in your evidence in September as your having
15 taken in the course of meetings with, for example, Dr. Karadzic and then
16 a number of other people were mentioned.
17 Mr. Kljuic, have you simply left such notes behind you back in
19 A. No. All the notes that I made at that time were integrated with
20 the material that I sent to you. As I was writing certain chapters, I
21 was giving the attitude towards the future of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the
22 constitutional amendments so that my notes are basically interwoven into
23 these texts.
24 Q. Mr. Kljuic, can I get it clear. Are you saying that there is no
25 material in the form of any notes or memorandums of any sort written by
1 you in 1990, 1991, 1992, in relation to all these political matters, that
2 there are no such notes back in Sarajevo additional to what you have
3 delivered already to this Tribunal?
4 A. No, not as such. They were used for my writing and were then
5 dispensed of.
6 Q. Mr. Kljuic, that's -- I'm asking you about what is currently
7 physically in existence. Are you saying there is nothing of any possible
8 relevance to your evidence prepared by you back in Sarajevo additionally
9 to what you have already given this Tribunal?
10 A. The parts that were already described, no. As for the rest, I
11 don't know whether there's something else within my documentation.
12 Whatever I could find I have brought over with me. However, there are no
13 specific notes concerning these meetings because I integrated them into
14 my book and I have them as sections of my book, but you've said that
15 you're not interested in it.
16 Q. I only ask questions, Mr. Kljuic. But you are quite right, my
17 primary interest in the questions is not in chapters of your book as
18 opposed to contemporaneous matters and His Honour Judge Orie made that
19 clear to you back in September. That's the background to it.
20 Mr. Kljuic, is it this that when you have used or -- notes,
21 contemporaneous notes that you had made in 1990, 1991, 1992, when you
22 have used those for a chapter in your book, you have then thrown them
23 away or destroyed them, have you?
24 A. Yes, they were destroyed because the secretaries, once they typed
25 them out, there was no more need for them because this was an enormous
1 amount of documentation containing even copies of newspaper articles.
2 This was basically a documentation centre from which I took only those
3 parts that I was interested in and I dispensed of the rest.
4 Q. Mr. Kljuic, let's just focus on your own notes that you - forget
5 newspaper articles - your own notes that you told this Tribunal in sent
6 you had made at meetings with Dr. Karadzic and so on. You agree, do you,
7 that -- maybe at the time, but looking back, these were, for better or
8 worse, historic events that you were involved with, weren't they? That's
9 obvious, Mr. Kljuic, isn't it, please?
10 A. First of all, I've never stated that I made any notes of the
11 talks with Mr. Karadzic.
12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... please answer my question,
13 Mr. Kljuic. I thought you might simply readily agree. These were
14 historic events, weren't they, that you were involved in?
15 A. Absolutely so.
16 Q. And you are an academic; correct?
17 A. One could put it that way. I'm not a member of any academy,
19 Q. You're writing a book; correct?
20 A. I have written several books so far, plays, yes.
21 Q. You're writing a book that you've told this Tribunal about,
22 aren't you? That's what we're talking about.
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. And you're saying that as you go along, you throw away - please
25 say whether this is right or wrong. You have thrown away your original
1 source material consisting of your own notes from that historic period;
2 is that what you're saying?
3 A. Once I've used up my own note for the purposes of my book, that's
4 good enough for me. I get rid of these old papers because they are
5 personal notes and not documents of any significance for others.
6 Q. Is the answer yes, you have thrown away your own contemporaneous
7 notes of these meetings, for example, with Dr. Karadzic?
8 A. Yes, because they were transposed into new texts. So I have not
9 torn them up without having used them. I have used them in the parts
10 that I deemed fit and then threw them away because I got rid of a number
11 of other papers dating from that period.
12 Q. Have you finished with and therefore thrown away all the notes
13 that you mentioned in September that you took of any meetings at which
14 Mr. -- Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Koljevic, Mrs. Plavsic and so on
15 were present?
16 A. All the papers that I have used and copied from were thrown.
17 Other contemporaneous papers from 1990, 1991, 1992 that I have not used
18 for my book, I have brought them over for you to see. Had I known that
19 13 years later, anyone would inquire of me to show these papers, I would
20 have them now because as it was, I merely considered them my property.
21 Q. You referred to -- I'm pretty sure you did, refer to a secretary
22 typing up your notes. Is that one stage of the process of your work that
23 your handwritten notes of meetings in that period, 1990 to 1992, were
24 typed up?
25 A. Only the portions that were deemed significant by me were typed
1 out and are contained in these texts.
2 Q. And was the typed-up version, then, of such notes, also thrown
3 away as you incorporated such material into chapters or draft chapters of
4 your book?
5 A. Depending on the case. Not necessarily all of them, but I was
6 interested in having them transposed into my book as their final version.
7 Everything else was considered by me to be merely a preparatory version
8 while writing the book.
9 Q. Let me go as directly as I can to it, Mr. Kljuic. Apart from the
10 material that you've already supplied to the Tribunal in two batches, do
11 you or might you have back in Bosnia either original notes of yours made
12 in 1990, 1991, or 1992 in relation to these political events or typed-up
13 copies or typed-up versions of such notes? That is if you want the
14 question given to you again, Mr. Kljuic, then I would take it that that
15 is a yes or no question.
16 A. There is no need for repeating.
17 Q. Is the answer yes or no, please?
18 A. There may be some, I'm not sure. I would have to check.
19 Q. Would you be willing to check as soon as convenient when you
20 return to Sarajevo?
21 A. Absolutely.
22 Q. And would you be willing, without any expurgation or sifting to
23 supply copies of all that material to this Tribunal, if so requested?
24 A. I have already given two batches of these papers; therefore,
25 there's no reason why I shouldn't give you this one as well.
1 Q. I take that as a yes, you would be willing, Mr. Kljuic.
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, either now or at some point that's
4 convenient, I do invite the Tribunal to -- to the Trial Chamber to make
5 that request. I'm in Your Honours' hands as to when, of course -- well
6 strictly whether. But I'm inviting that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll consider that.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
9 MR. STEWART: If Your Honour is at any point -- may I just say if
10 Your Honour's at any point considering rejecting that request, might I
11 please be given a suitable opportunity at a suitable point of making
12 submissions first.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may. We'll consider whether we are
14 inclined or not inclined to give such an order. If we are not inclined
15 to give such an order, we'll giver you an opportunity to make brief
16 submissions on the matter.
17 MR. STEWART: I'm obliged, Your Honour. And I'm sure of course
18 the Trial Chamber would give Mr. Harmon whatever opportunity is suitable
19 for him in whatever circumstances. I wouldn't of course resist that.
20 Q. Mr. Kljuic, I'm now going to turn back to some of the evidence
21 which you've already given in this case. At page, it's 6.100. Your
22 Honour likes the day -- it's Monday, the 27th of September, 2004, you
23 said, it's line 5, "Since after Dayton Accords were signed, Karadzic
24 could not occupy a political position having been eliminated by Americans
25 from political life and that was one of the conditions of the Dayton
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Accords. Mr. Krajisnik became officially the leader of Bosnian Serbs."
2 In what -- you say "officially." In what way did Mr. Krajisnik
3 become officially the leader of the Bosnian Serbs?
4 A. Very simply, he has become a candidate of -- for the president --
5 to be a become a member of the Presidency. He won the elections after
6 the Dayton Accord and became a member of the Presidency.
7 Q. What made him the -- officially the leader of the Bosnian Serbs?
8 A. This position in the Presidency, because in the aftermath of the
9 Dayton Accords, only three members were elected on the Presidency, these
10 were the three representatives of the three ethnic groups, Croats, Serbs
11 and Muslims. Having been elected a member of the Presidency, he
12 officially became a representative of Bosnian Serbs.
13 Q. Who became, at that point, the president of Republika Srpska?
14 A. I don't remember. Perhaps Poplasen or Ms. Plavsic, they were
15 presidents after the war, but I don't remember.
16 Q. Yes, I put it to you that it was Mrs. Plavsic that you don't --
17 well it's at least apparent - you don't recall anything to contradict
18 that, do you?
19 A. Well, undoubtedly, this was an electoral position.
20 Q. And Mr. Buha became the president of the SDS, didn't he?
21 A. Possibly so. I don't remember.
22 Q. You said, and this is the next page of that transcript, page
23 6.101, line 5: "Later, we would get a major confirmation that not all
24 Serbs were in favour of Karadzic and when a referendum for the
25 independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina was declared on 22nd of March,
1 1991, a great number of Serbs, possibly a third, and there would have
2 been even more if the referendum had not been declared on the entire
3 territory, did support the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
4 Is that speculation, assessment, or based on some hard facts your
5 one-third, "possibly one-third" remark?
6 A. Your question is first of all a bit confusing. There are several
7 inaccuracies in it. The referendum for the independence of Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina was the 29th of February and the 22nd of March.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Not the 22nd of March. Interpreter's
11 A. So the information contained in my testimony is as follows: You
12 have to know that the structure of the population deferred from the
13 structure of the electoral body in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 At that time, there was 44.6 per cent of the Muslims in the
15 entire population; however, since that percentage was constituted by a
16 lot of children, there was only 39 per cent of those eligible to vote
17 among them.
18 Now, the situation with Croats was different. There was 17.3 per
19 cent of Croats in the population; however, there was 21 per cent of the
20 Croats eligible to vote.
21 A similar situation existed with the Serbs. The results of the
22 referendum of -- were very clear. Some 40-odd per cent -- or rather
23 60-odd per cent voted in favour of the independence. Had there been no
24 Serb votes, the referendum would not have been successful. It is
25 therefore certain that the Serbs living in towns in urban areas voted in
1 favour of the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina and it is equally
2 true that the numbers of those that would have voted in favour of the
3 independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina would have been much higher had
4 Karadzic and his lot not thwarted the vote in many municipalities where
5 they were in power. I mean in the municipal authorities.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, would you allow me to just ask some
7 clarifying questions on the last answer.
8 MR. STEWART: Of course, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kljuic, you are talking about percentages. You
10 mentioned 44.6 for the Muslims. You also mentioned 17.3 for the Croats.
11 Are these numbers for the whole of the territory of Bosnia and
13 A. Yes. Those are official figures from the census of 1991.
14 JUDGE ORIE: The 60 per cent that voted in favour of an
15 independent Bosnia and Herzegovina, was that 60 per cent of calculated on
16 the basis of the whole of the population of Bosnia and Herzegovina or
17 only of those who had voted?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 64 per cent actually of the entire
19 population of Bosnia and Herzegovina voted for; whereas .2 or .3 per cent
20 of those who voted were against the independence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Now 64 per cent actually of the entire population.
22 So it's not 64 per cent of those who had voted?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely correct. No, not of
24 those who voted, 64 per cent of the entire population of Bosnia and
1 JUDGE ORIE: It is known that many Serbs did not vote. As far as
2 we have heard until now, the referendum was to a high degree boycotted or
3 Serbs did not participate in the referendum. Do you know how many people
4 -- what was the percentage of the overall population of Bosnia and
5 Herzegovina that participated in the referendum?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have told you, 64 per cent. 64
7 per cent of the citizens participated in the referendum, and out of
8 these, only .2 per cent voted against. .2 per cent of those who turned
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just have a look again.
11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I ask a question about something
12 that is confusing me terribly in the witness's evidence so I don't wish,
13 with respect, to interrupt the flow.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If you allow me one more question.
15 MR. STEWART: Of course, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that some 39 per cent of the population
17 had -- were Muslims which were entitled to vote if we just limit
18 ourselves to the electorate and for the --
19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that's precisely my point of
20 confusion. I wonder if I might just ask Your Honour's indulgence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that you've got similar problems as I have.
22 MR. STEWART: It's this, Your Honour.
23 Q. Mr. Kljuic, you said there were 17 -- this is at line 14 on page
24 12. You said, "There were 17.3 per cent of Croats in the population;
25 however, there was 21 per cent of the Croats eligible to vote." And
1 since 21 is higher than 17.3, that suggests that --
2 JUDGE ORIE: May I just try to check that.
3 Do I understand that the division of the parts of the population,
4 the ethnic groups of the population on the population as a whole was not
5 the same as the division of the ethnic groups if you would just focus on
6 the electorate, that is those who were entitled to vote? That means that
7 on the whole of the population, the percentage of Muslims was higher than
8 the percentage of Muslims that were entitled to vote. That is to say the
9 percentage of Muslims in the electorate.
10 Does that clarify the issue, Mr. Stewart. Because that means
11 that although you may have only 17.3 per cent on the whole of the
12 population, you might have 21 per cent if you just focus on the
14 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, it was the clarification of that
15 answer which is the way it's expressed doesn't -- does potentially
17 Q. Mr. Kljuic, may I ask you something just to make sure that I have
18 understood the position correctly. 20 per cent of the electorate were
19 Croats; is that right? Is that what you're saying?
20 A. 20, 21 per cent.
21 Q. Yes. And when you were talking about 39 per cent of Muslims, you
22 were saying that 39 per cent of the electorate were Muslims, that's also
23 what you were saying; is that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And it follows, therefore, that apart from a possibly relatively
1 insignificant category of others, that the other 40 per cent of the
2 electorate were very predominantly Serbs?
3 A. No, no, please. You have to understand one thing. The number of
4 citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina was 4.400.000 whereas the number of
5 those who were eligible to vote was 3.4 million. So the ethnic group
6 which had a lot of children was not represented in the electorate in the
7 same percentage as it was represented in the overall population
8 structure. Their percentage of the electorate was smaller.
9 What I'm giving you are official, exact figures that you can
10 obtain from the Institute for Statistics. On the other hand, it has not
11 been established -- just give me a moment to finish my answer ...
12 Q. Mr. Kljuic, yes, but my question is -- you've brought in the
13 population as a whole. My question was very specifically confined to the
14 electorate. So that's what I was asking you.
15 You have been saying that 39 per cent of the electorate were
16 Muslims. You confirmed that specifically. That 20, 21 per cent of the
17 electorate were Croats. You confirmed that specifically. Let's take 21
18 because it works out neatly arithmetically, if it was 21 per cent Croats
19 and 39 per cent Muslims, that conveniently makes 60 per cent and what I
20 was putting to you therefore was that apart from a possibly insignificant
21 category of others, that the remaining 40 per cent of the electorate were
22 Serbs; is that correct?
23 A. No way, no way. Please. I am trying to assist you. I am trying
24 to assist you but I cannot do that unless you are willing to hear what I
25 have to say.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few questions for you, Mr. Kljuic. Try to
2 follow me.
3 We have an electorate, 100 per cent of the electorate. 100 per
4 cent means the total number of those who are entitled to vote; yes?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely, yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that Muslims would be 39 per cent of
7 that electorate; you agree?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: You also told us that 21 per cent of that electorate
10 were Croats; you agree?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I agree.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I ask you to follow my assumption I ask you to
13 follow my assumption. My assumption is, just for arguments's sake, all
14 Muslims vote for independence, let's just assume that, yes? Do you
15 agree? Well, you don't.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have to agree, but I just want you to
18 follow this assumption. Let's just take that. My next assumption is
19 that all Croats also vote in favour of independence. I just ask you to
20 follow that assumption. Yes?
21 On the basis of that assumption, we would have 60 per cent of the
22 electorate of the voters who would vote in favour of independence, that
23 is 39 plus 21. You agree that that would be, on the basis of that
24 assumption, a valid conclusion. Do you still follow me?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, Your Honours. It is just
1 the right that belonged to Croats and Muslims, but I would like to ask
2 you: Do you know how many voters actually exercised their right to vote,
3 to turn out at the elections? At the first 1990 elections -- for
4 instance in America, they elected their presidents with only 38 per cent
5 of the electorate.
6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... referendum. In
7 other words, do you know what percentage casted their votes? You said --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We know that: 64 per cent.
9 JUDGE ORIE: All right. Do you know, since there is some
10 information that Serbs had boycotted, do you know exactly which part of
11 the 64 per cent were Muslims, which part were Croats, which part were
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody knows that exactly. But
14 what is known is that most of the Croats did turn out. With Muslims, the
15 number of those who cast their votes was important but not everybody did.
16 There were even deputies to the parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina who
17 were against independence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Do we know -- you said, "We do know that most of the
19 Croats did turn out." On the basis of what do we know that?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on the organisational work
21 that I did as the president. We have lots of people who are working in
22 Germany and we organise special buses to bring them back to the country
23 to vote. And we know the percentages, municipality by municipality,
24 exact figures of those who turned out to vote. For instance, Grude,
25 where Mate Boban lived, 99 per cent turned out.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I might have a language problem but "turn out,"
2 could anyone explain to me at this moment what this exactly means in this
4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I would understand it to mean went to
6 JUDGE ORIE: Went to vote.
7 Do I understand that if you say "turn out" that they went to
8 vote, the Croats?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Now, are you saying that most of the Croats and most
11 of the Muslims voted?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: If you have no exact figures, what, on the basis of
14 what you learned, would be the percentage? Above 90 per cent Muslims and
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For Croats, it is certainly over 90
17 per cent. I'm not sure about the Muslims.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Did the Croats, as far as you know, vote in favour
19 of independence?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Did the Muslims vote in favour of independence?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of those who turned out, who
23 cast their votes, voted for independence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's what you said 63.8 and 0.2, so that -- well,
25 we restart.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where we might.
2 JUDGE ORIE: With that electorate of 100, yes.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: We have 39 out of those 100 being Muslims; do you
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We have 21 being Croats.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's now make an assumption that at least 90 per
10 cent, you said for the Croats, it was higher, for the Muslims, you do not
11 know for sure. If I would make the assumption that 90 per cent of
12 Muslims and Croats entitled to vote did vote, would that be a fair
13 assumption? Certainly not less.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure about the Muslims.
15 I'm not sure that over 90 per cent of them voted, but you could assume
17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any data on what percentage of the
18 Muslims who were entitled to vote actually did vote?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't. There was a large
20 percentage of Muslims, 39 per cent of those who had the right to vote.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's continue on the basis of the 90 per cent
22 assumption. We then have 60 Muslim Croat voters of which 90 per cent
23 comes and votes which means that 54 of them came to vote.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you said 64 per cent voted in favour of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 independence; yes?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That means that you need 10 more voters from other
4 groups - Serbs, Yugoslavs, whatever - to vote in favour of independence.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They wanted to vote. Nobody had to
7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not talking on whether they had to vote. You'd
8 need another 10 out of 100 voters to come to that result. They would be
9 Serbs and others. What percentage of the electorate was Serb?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A figure very similar to the
11 Croats, 31 per cent of the population and 32 per cent of the electorate
12 because they had less children, fewer children, just like the Croats.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That means that those remaining would have to add 10
14 votes out of 100 to get to that result.
15 Mr. Stewart, I'm just asking you whether you follow my analysis
16 at this moment.
17 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour, it's very clear.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And whether you agree with that.
19 MR. STEWART: I agree with the arithmetic, Your Honour, based on
20 the assumptions and I understand entirely the assumptions, yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So the weak spot is that we are working on the basis
22 of assumptions rather than on the basis of established facts. So unless
23 we would have details about that, on this assumption, it would, with the
24 uncertainty what would be the others and what would be the Serbs because
25 that's not clear. But if you would also assume that those 10 votes came
1 in majority from Serbs -- I'm not saying it is so; it could well be
2 others that they were over-represented under these 10 voters. But if
3 not, then approximately one-third of the Serb electorate would have been
4 in favour of the independence, at least voted in favour of independence.
5 So we have a few weak spots, one of them being that we do not
6 know exactly what percentage came to vote, which is a vital piece of
7 information. Because if, overall, it would have been not 90 per cent but
8 98 per cent, then of course the votes needed by non-Croats, non-Muslims
9 would be considerably less, that would be 2 out of 100, which makes
10 approximately 10 per cent of the Serb or others electorate.
11 I mean it's relatively simple to make the calculations and it's
12 also important to establish how vital the information is on how many
13 Muslims came to vote, how many Croats came to vote because we would then
14 know what you would still need in favour of independence votes to come to
15 the result of 64 per cent.
16 If this is commonly accepted, then the remaining issue is whether
17 we have these data available, yes or no, whether this witness could
18 provide them, or they could be provided by any other source so that we
19 can verify the validity of what the witness told us.
20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I would -- thank you very much for
21 that, Your Honour, and as I say, we -- we, I'm royal we or something this
22 morning -- understand Your Honour's analysis based on those assumptions.
23 We do sometimes say in English if we had some fish we could have some
24 fish and chips if we had some chips. So you do really have to explore
25 the assumptions. But Your Honour, I wouldn't propose to explore it
1 further with this witness. This information must be available more
2 conveniently and readily and accurately, with respect, from somewhere
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But at least the issue is clear now.
5 MR. STEWART: That's helpful, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour -- as sometimes happen when we have a
8 late start, was Your Honour proposing to just take the first break at the
9 normal time and then proceed according to the normal timetable?
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact we have it a bit later
11 so to split up a in more equal parts but if you prefer to have a break
12 now ...
13 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, if it's not terribly
14 inconvenient to the Trial Chamber and everybody else because I have made
15 arrangements with various members of my team to meet them and give
16 instructions and so on. So it would be a great help to me Your Honour
17 and since we have just finished this chapter -- I can go on of course for
18 a few minutes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then adjourn until five minutes to 11.00.
20 MR. STEWART: I'm very much obliged for that, Your Honour. Thank
22 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Two practical matters. The Chamber will invite the
25 witness to send any notes on meetings he still would have in Sarajevo. I
1 add to that immediately that this should not give rise to any
2 expectations as to the importance, relevance, et cetera. Further written
3 submissions of course can be filed at a later stage and we'll then see
4 what the material is, how important it is, and see what to do with that.
5 But at this moment, the Chamber will invite the witness to provide that
6 material so that the Defence at least has an opportunity to inspect that
8 Second question, very practical one, we have an opportunity to
9 move on Friday the 22nd of April from the afternoon session to the
10 morning session which is often considered as a precious thing, the last
11 day of the week moving from the afternoon to the morning. The Judges
12 have no problems. I'd like to hear from the parties if there is any
14 MR. HARMON: We would have no problem, Your Honour.
15 MR. STEWART: Neither do we, Your Honour, thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then unless there would be problems in terms of
17 interpreter teams, et cetera, et cetera, the Chamber will ask the
18 registry to see whether we could move from the afternoon to the morning
19 session on the 22nd of April.
20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, can I say partly my non-objection was
21 because I didn't even know we were in the afternoon in the first place
22 anyway. Can I take it that -- are we -- if Your Honour can just very
23 helpfully tell me or somebody, are we in the afternoon then for the other
24 days next week?
25 JUDGE ORIE: That week we are scheduled Monday the 18th of April
1 in the morning; Tuesday 19th, Wednesday 20, and Thursday 21 in the
3 MR. STEWART: Yes, that's very helpful. Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Kljuic
5 into the courtroom.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
8 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Mr. Kljuic, at page 6.106 of the transcript on the 27th of
10 September last year, you said, and it's -- you've got a number of
11 references to this word. You were asked by Mr. Harmon:
12 "Q. Mr. Kljuic, did you have an opportunity to observe Mr.
13 Krajisnik in his relations with people who were not -- who were Serbs but
14 were not SDS members. Can you describe his views and attitude towards
15 those people."
16 "A. He, just as Karadzic, condemned those people as traitors of
18 Mr. Kljuic, the view of Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik was this,
19 wasn't it, that the SDA and the HDZ were intent upon destruction of
20 Yugoslavia in a way which Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik and all their
21 colleagues regarded as detrimental to the interests of Serbs in Bosnia.
22 A. I disagree.
23 Q. Disagree that that was the view?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
25 MR. STEWART: Sorry, I was in the wrong place.
1 Q. You disagree that that was the view of, for example, Dr.
2 Karadzic? I just want to know if you disagree about the view or you
3 disagree about the fact, Mr. Kljuic.
4 A. I disagree with the notion of non-Serbs having been intent upon
5 destroying Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia was destroyed by Serbs themselves by
6 having pursued non-democratic methods and failed to respect the 1974
8 Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik advocated that very same Serb
9 policy which provoked the reactions of non-Serb ethnicities.
10 Q. Just pause for a moment.
11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm quite content not to pursue the
12 resolution of this distinction but I ...
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it's even totally useless.
14 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour --
15 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't put any question to the witness in this
16 respect, so if you would move on to your next subject.
17 MR. STEWART: I will, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You would find no opposition from the Chamber.
19 MR. STEWART: I'm very much obliged, Your Honour.
20 Q. I just put it this way, the word "traitors," Mr. Kljuic, it's a
21 strong, but commonly used word in the rough-and-tumble of politics by
22 party members, representatives, about people who take different view on
23 important issues, isn't it?
24 A. Yes. But in the history of the Serbian politics, when they lost
25 the battle at Kosovo Polje, then Brankovic used the term. This term has
1 been widely used in the Balkans, especially with the Serbs.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, this is a similar matter. If someone
3 uses the word "traitor" of course it's very much depended on the context
4 how defective -- I mean the Chamber is in a position to at least give
5 some meaning and see the relativity which doesn't mean that it doesn't
6 say anything at all, but to see the relativity of the use of the word
8 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I wasn't proposing to pursue
9 this point beyond that simple question to the witness anyway. But thank
10 you for that helpful remark, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Kljuic, the next page of the same transcript, page 6.107, you
12 refer to a Mr. Simovic. You said -- it starts at line 3, "For instance,
13 after the walkout of the SDS in the beginning of the aggression," and
14 you're talking about the walkout October 1991, aren't you there?
15 A. One can see here the context of the word "aggression" in -- the
16 aggression on Croatia started in 1991 and on Bosnia in 1992 so that if we
17 are talking about Bosnia here, this isn't the proper context, the proper
19 Q. Mr. Kljuic, it's your evidence. If you don't know -- if you
20 can't work out without a wider context, then say so, but it was the
21 walkout. I was just asking you to confirm that if you can't, you can't,
22 that the walkout that you're referring to was the walkout from the
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly in October 1991; is that right?
24 A. Can you give me the entire sentence please?
25 Q. I'm just going to move on, Mr. Kljuic, and withdraw that
1 particular question.
2 Mr. Simovic, you say, "He stayed in Sarajevo after the war
3 started." He was, is this right, he was a member of the Constitutional
4 Court, and he is now a Republika Srpska member, as it were, of the Bosnia
5 and Herzegovina Constitutional Court. That's right, isn't it?
6 A. At the time of the start of the aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina
7 when he remained in Sarajevo, he was Deputy Prime Minister of the
8 republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Some three to four months after the
9 start of the aggression, he also left Sarajevo.
10 At a later stage, he held certain positions in the Republika
11 Srpska, whether he was a member of the Constitutional Court or a
12 professor on the faculty. And today he's a member of the Constitutional
13 Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 Q. Did he subsequently leave Sarajevo?
15 A. Yes. As I've said, he was there in the beginning of the
16 aggression as Deputy Prime Minister but after a while, perhaps some
17 three, four, five months later, he left.
18 Q. Do you know why he left?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Do you know of or did you know at the time an academic called Mr.
22 A. Of course I do.
23 Q. Did he say in Sarajevo and was he arrested by Muslim Croat
25 A. Yes, he was. He remained in Sarajevo for a while. He was
1 arrested. I don't know about that but I do know that he was being
2 bothered, that the government tried to protect him and that he later on
3 went to Belgrade.
4 Q. Do you know that he was maltreated in prison?
5 A. I don't know but I can assume that he was, yes.
6 Q. The same applied to Mr. Slavko Leovac?
7 A. You mean Leovac. I knew Professor Leovac as well. I believe he
8 shared the same fate of Ekmecic.
9 Q. And the same applied to Mr. Svetozar Koljevic and -- if it is Mr.
10 Borisa Starovic?
11 A. I don't think the same applies to the two of them. Svetozar
12 Koljevic, I knew him very well and I even met him in the street during
13 the war once, whereas Borisa Starovic was my school meat from high
15 Q. Did you know Professor Najdanovic?
16 A. Unfortunately, I did not know Dr. Najdanovic.
17 Q. Do you know of him?
18 A. Yes, and I heard that he had been killed, kidnapped or he
19 otherwise that he went missing and his fate is still unknown today.
20 Q. But all of the people I've mentioned were prominent Serbs in
21 Sarajevo at the time the conflict began, weren't they?
22 A. Yes. We can agree that most of them were distinguished.
23 Q. And a high proportion of prominent Serbs in Sarajevo were
24 arrested, imprisoned and maltreated when the conflict broke out, weren't
1 A. That chaos reigned in the town, that much is true. Some of those
2 were pronounced enemies of the idea of Bosnia-Herzegovina and I here
3 refer to Professor Ekmecic and Borisa Leovac, and there were some groups
4 that went out of hand and wreaked havoc without having been directed to
5 do so by the government. But most importantly, all the citizens in
6 Sarajevo were threatened, endangered at the time, because they had no
7 electricity, food, and so on.
8 Q. Mr. Kljuic, I want to turn to the intercept, please, which was
9 under consideration at page 6.149 of the transcript on the 27th of
10 September last year, and it was tab 31472. It's now an exhibit.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's Prosecution Exhibit 292, KID number 31472.
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if the witness is going to be asked
14 questions about the particular intercept, could he be provided of a copy
15 of the intercept.
16 JUDGE ORIE: It depends what questions will be put to him. If he
17 has to have a closer look at it, I expect Mr. Stewart to present it to
18 the witness.
19 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, indeed, I tend whenever it's fair to the
20 witness and would ultimately be guided by the Trial Chamber on that.
21 Q. Mr. Kljuic, this -- I don't know how well you recall this, this
22 is a transcript of a telephone conversation between Mr. Momcilo Mandic
23 and Mr. Krajisnik that took place on the 26th of June, 1992, according to
24 this record.
25 Just to refresh your memory, at page 6.158 of the transcript on
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the 27th of September, Mr. Harmon asked you when the intercepts had been
2 played, Mr. Kljuic, this is page 6.158, "Mr. Kljuic, I played this
3 intercept for you in the context of your previous testimony that dealt
4 with the attitudes of Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik and other attitudes
5 towards non-Serbs who did not subscribe to the SDS agenda. Can I have
6 your comments on observations in respect of this intercept."
7 Your answer was: "A. We see in this conversation the drastic
8 qualifications they give to people who are not towing the line. Although
9 there is an error in the identification of Filip Vukovic. It's true he
10 is a communist but he's not a Serb. He happened to be a Croat.
11 "We see from this that they were sending women and children to us
12 which is another result of ethnic cleansing. But if you wish, we can
13 also see from this that Mr. Krajisnik was involved in many problems
14 beginning with exchanges with the Muslims because this person,
15 Karamehmedovic had been sent to Sarajevo, and in exchange some people
16 were demanded from Sarajevo."
17 Mr. Kljuic, do you know who Mr. Karamehmedovic was?
18 A. I don't.
19 Q. So if I suggest to you that he was a former colleague of Mr.
20 Krajisnik's who had been arrested by the VRS, you know nothing that would
21 contradict that suggestion?
22 A. No, I wouldn't.
23 Q. So if you were told that this was a personal appeal to Mr.
24 Krajisnik to become involved in obtaining the release of one of his
25 former colleagues, again, you know nothing to contradict that assertion.
1 A. I don't except perhaps for the fact that he would use his offices
2 for a friend to be released but not for someone who was not a friend.
3 MR. STEWART: I wonder, Your Honour, perhaps the witness should
4 see the copy of the transcript.
5 Q. Do you see the first reference that you can find in this document
6 to Mr. Karamehmedovic? Do you see that? The first time his name is
7 mentioned, can you find that?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, in the transcript it's at page 6.151
10 at line 22.
11 Q. Then about ten lines on from that, there's a reference to 400
12 prisoners. Do you see that?
13 A. I see where Karamehmedovic is mentioned.
14 Q. Yes, I thought you had that, then. If you go on about 10 or 12
15 lines it should be, you see a reference -- do you see:
16 "Mandic Momcilo: I've got 400."
17 Do you see that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then Mr. Krajisnik says, "And who is criticising?"
20 Mr. Mandic says, "This Filip Vukovic, this member of the youth
21 organisation, Serb, he says clean it, but for them they are..."
22 And then it goes on a few lines.
23 Mr. Krajisnik says, "What does he want?"
24 Mr. Mandic: "He is president of the exchange commission. Their
2 "And what is it that he wants?
3 "War prisoners. No, they are ex for them. They are hardly
4 interested in people. They are interested in ammunition and meat and now
5 we let those women and children to go to Vrbanja... to go to their own
6 people. He said that's ethnic cleansing what we're doing..."
7 Mr. Kljuic, my first question is whether you know any more about
8 this particular matter about women and children going to Vrbanja than
9 what we can read here in this transcript.
10 A. Of all of the parts of the town of Sarajevo, Grbavica was in the
11 most difficult situation because it was cut off from the rest of the town
12 as bridges were connecting it to them. It was a neighbourhood that was
13 very close to the surrounding mountains and was placed under Serb control
14 very early on with the help of the JNA. There were examples of families
15 divided between Grbavica and Sarajevo and many tried to cross over to
16 town proper as soon as possible.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you had any specific
18 knowledge of this event, that is women and children sent to Vrbanja. You
19 are a he not asked about what the context of this might have been but
20 whether you have any specific knowledge of this event.
21 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vrbanja is a bridge that separated
23 the warring parties. It was at this bridge that exchanges were
24 conducted. I don't know the details but I know that many people from
25 Sarajevo went over to the Serb-controlled territory across Vrbanja and
1 from Serb-controlled territory crossed over to the town proper; and that
2 in addition to the arrangements made by individual persons, there were
3 also commissions that engaged in the exchange of prisoners and most often
4 of common citizens. Therefore, they were not exchanging troops but
6 MR. STEWART:
7 Q. Mr. Kljuic, can we take it that whatever you just said, you don't
8 know anything about this particular matter that is referred to here the
9 women and children going to Vrbanja?
10 A. I don't know anything about these women, about Karamehmedovic. I
11 don't know anything specific about it.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, on the basis of the text of the
13 telephone intercept, one could even wonder whether this was one specific
14 event or that it was a development. "Now we let these women and
15 children" could also be a specific group or it could also be a practice
16 that was developed or had developed.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. STEWART: I note and understand Your Honour's comment.
19 Q. You said in your evidence and I don't have the specific reference
20 to this, Mr. Kljuic, but I doubt that you will dispute it, that Croats
21 were not supporting Bosnia remaining part of Yugoslavia because that
22 would mean remaining part of Greater Serbia. That's -- that accurately
23 represents your view, doesn't it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. What was the concern of Croats in remaining part of Greater
2 A. Well, they had a second-rate position in the former Yugoslavia,
3 both in the Yugoslavia ruled by the Karadjordjevic dynasty and in the
4 Yugoslav version. In the Greater Serbia, they would have the position of
5 Croats in today's Vojvodina who are not even entitled to newspapers or
6 radio in their own language.
7 Q. And the concern of the Bosnian Serbs was to be in a minority in
8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, wasn't it?
9 A. First of all, that is not true. Nobody would have been a
10 minority. On the contrary, they would be equal. We Croats could
11 arguably be a minority. I personally authored a document which could
12 have secured the constitutional rights of all ethnic communities. And
13 you have among the documentation I supplied my letter to President
14 Tudjman --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kljuic, let me stop you for one second.
16 Mr. Stewart, we heard so much evidence on the issue of who would
17 be a minority in what circumstances and, of course, what a minority is
18 differs from the point of view one is taking, whether that would be
19 minority in respect of a absolute majority of others or whether that
20 would be a minority in respect of a coalition of others, none of them
21 having an absolute majority. To have this explained again by the witness
22 that the Bosnian Serbs would not be a minority, I could spell out
23 whatever could be said about that without even having to look at my
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I don't wish it to be explained, Your
1 Honour. That was not what I was looking for. Some of these points are
2 single-question points. If the witness simply answers my question, I
3 will move on as I would be very happy to do on that particular point.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
5 MR. STEWART: Thank you.
6 Q. Mr. Kljuic, I want to hand you, please, one of the items that you
7 have supplied previously to the Trial Chamber, not the ones that arrived
8 yesterday. It's item 14 --
9 JUDGE ORIE: That's D40. And Madam Registrar is still waiting to
10 receive a copy of it.
11 MR. HARMON: We can supply a copy, Your Honour, if necessary.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. STEWART: That's the one we looked at yesterday.
14 Q. I just want to ask you, towards the end of this account that you
15 give of the meeting in question in September 1991, you said that, "two
16 days" -- it's about four paragraphs from the end.
17 "Two days after these failed negotiations, I went to see Tudjman
18 in Zagreb. When we exchanged information about the situation, I told him
19 about the talks with SDS leaders. He was very glad to hear that I'd held
20 a meeting on the level of HDZ and SDS leadership. When I told him about
21 the outcome of the talks, he became lost in thought" and so on.
22 Mr. Kljuic, did you make notes either during the meeting with Mr.
23 Tudjman or -- notes of this meeting either during the meeting or at some
24 point afterwards?
25 A. I never took notes from my own discussions with President
1 Tudjman. But a huge number of those discussions was audiotaped and were
2 published two months ago in two volumes published by the Split newspaper
3 Feral. A detailed record was given on all the views of President Tudjman
4 on Bosnia and his discussions with the representatives of Croats and
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Kljuic, just to make it clear, during that
7 meeting with Mr. Tudjman, you made no notes.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We see that you've written down in this document.
10 Was that the first time that you did write down what was said during that
11 meeting or were there any previous writings?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is the only thing I have.
13 The whole meeting was initiated pursuant to the order of Mr. Tudjman.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's a clear answer. You have no further
16 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
17 MR. STEWART:
18 Q. And when you said a moment ago - excuse me - "That a huge number
19 of these discussions was audiotaped," these discussions, are you
20 including or meaning your own meeting just referred to with Mr. Tudjman?
21 A. Since I received these books very recently and I'm having a hard
22 time reading them. I haven't yet established whether that particular
23 detail is on record in that book, but some meetings that took place
24 previously are included and I believe the transcripts are given in
25 chronological order.
1 Q. I'm just trying to get clear, Mr. Kljuic, what you're talking
2 about. Because you refer to "these discussions" in very wide terms as
3 having been audiotaped and published by Feral Tribune, I think it's
4 called, isn't it. What discussions, what range of discussions, what type
5 of discussions is covered by these audiotape transcripts, presumably
6 published by Feral Tribune?
7 A. It is a huge volume including several hundred discussions that
8 took place on a variety of occasions. Most of them have to do with
9 Bosnian Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina, one topic; Bosnian Croats and
10 Yugoslavia being another topic. And I, as Croat number one had
11 discussions, Boban, Tudjman, Susak and other conversations. I found
12 another conversations where I clashed with Zagreb concerning their policy
13 towards Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 Q. So your conversation or conversations with Mr. Tudjman were
15 included in these published discussions, were they?
16 A. Yes. Most of them seemed to be included. I don't know for sure,
17 it's a huge volume, I have to study it yet. But it is a very important
18 material from which you can see the positions taken by certain
19 individuals at that time.
20 Q. What's it called? It's a book, is it, published by Feral
22 A. Yes, it is. It's called "The Transcripts." About the division
23 of Bosnia. Your own person in Sarajevo can obtain it in Sarajevo and
24 sent it to you. It's very simple. It consists of two volumes.
25 Q. I'm sure I can when I find out who he or she is, Mr. Kljuic.
1 I would like you to have item 15.
2 MR. STEWART: I have a clean copy myself, Your Honour. Item 15
3 of the first batch of items that was supplied by Mr. Kljuic to the Trial
5 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you'd like to have number 15 assigned
6 a D number as well.
7 MR. STEWART: I would indeed, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That would be D41, I take it, Madam Registrar. Yes,
9 it's confirmed by Madam Registrar.
10 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Now, this is -- apart from the number in the corner and 15 but
12 that doesn't perhaps matter. This is a typed document and this is
13 something that you have written; is that right, Mr. Kljuic?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And can you say when you wrote it?
16 A. I wrote it partly at the time when it was happening and later, I
17 compiled it all in a single piece of writing that was finalised in the
18 form in which it will be published in a book.
19 Q. Now, it relates largely to what is called the historic agreement,
20 doesn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you've just, in a nutshell, given your summary of what the
23 historic agreement was.
24 A. You see the changes of the constitutional order of Bosnia and
25 Herzegovina, the transition from a totalitarian to a democratic system
1 were supposed to take place on two levels. One had to do with the issue
2 of how to organise the Yugoslav community, and the second had to deal
3 with the structuring of Bosnia and Herzegovina. All of this was supposed
4 to be done within the institutions of the system.
5 However, it didn't work out that way due to the extreme demands
6 of Slobodan Milosevic and the non-observance of the 1974 Constitution
7 including the principle of equality among nations. But let us set aside
8 the problems on the level of Yugoslavia. Let us just look at the problem
9 in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
10 Instead of insisting the discussions take place in the parliament
11 of Bosnia and Herzegovina with harmonisation of views on what the future
12 should be, a trick was used so that Muslims, nowadays Bosniaks, be
13 excluded from the institutions of the system and that a separate
14 agreement be made between Croats and Serbs -- between Serbs and Muslims
15 putting Croats before a fait accompli. I witnessed this because Mr.
16 Koljevic's office was next to mine in the building of the Presidency.
17 And I warned them that this bilateral agreement between Serbs and Muslims
18 would mean an end to Bosnia and Herzegovina as we knew it. I even waited
19 for them on one occasion when they were coming out of an office and I
20 told them, "Gentlemen, when you agree, you have to come to see me."
21 The principal political force of Bosnian Muslims was the SDA
22 party. It was not involved. Instead, a small, a very small Bosnian
23 Muslim party was involved in this. Their leaders, their representatives
24 went to Belgrade and tried to elicit the support of Muslims by saying
25 that if the two largest nations in Bosnia come to an agreement, the war
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 could be avoided. However, this agreement was never reached. It fell
2 through, and this failure can be blamed on a lot of people. Because if
3 that agreement had become reality, then Yugoslavia would have fallen
4 apart in quite a different way.
5 Q. You say in this document, it's the end of the first paragraph, --
6 well, it's about five lines from the end. You say, "Alija Izetbegovic
7 and I never became close friends partly because we are completely
8 different from each other and perhaps even more importantly, because at
9 that time, he already had plans that were different from mine."
10 "At that time," what date would you put on "at that time"?
11 A. That was year 1991. You see, the problem of Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina --
13 Q. What part of 1991?
14 A. The second half, autumn 1991.
15 Q. And you say, "Izetbegovic" -- "I had no choice, however.
16 Izetbegovic supported BH, Bosnia Herzegovina, or at least said so and
17 Karadzic openly threatened the sovereignty of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
18 Now, first of all, "Mr. Izetbegovic supported Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina." Do you mean by that supported sovereignty of Bosnia and
21 A. Yes, but the problem of Bosnia and Herzegovina was entirely
22 different. I personally would have asked for a civic state. But in
23 Bosnia and Herzegovina, you cannot underestimate the national aspect.
24 Q. Mr. Kljuic, then Mr. Izetbegovic, according to you, "or at least
25 said so." So you at the time, did you, had, at the very least, very
1 severe reservations about whether Mr. Izetbegovic meant what he was
3 A. No, I did not have reservations. I even had no prospects.
4 Karadzic was openly against an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina and
5 Izetbegovic wanted it. However in this correlation and the religious,
6 the position wasn't clear. To date, we have not found a solution for
7 Bosnia in which it would be a civic state with adequate protection for
8 religious freedoms. It is very difficult in Bosnia because of the
9 internal relationships, traditions, and the complicated nature of life.
10 However, Izetbegovic was indeed in favour of Bosnia and that was crucial.
11 Q. You talk, and in the English, it's in the middle of the second
12 page, just to pick up a reference, do you see a reference in -- it's your
13 document. Do you see a reference in this document, perhaps about a third
14 of the way through to "600.000 Muslims from Turkey ..."? Do you see that
15 reference 600.000?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Yes. Well following on from that, that's just a reference point.
18 The next paragraph we get that paragraph that I think may be from
19 somewhere else we considered yesterday about your superiority and Mr.
20 Karadzic from the Dermitor mountains and then you record, "He won't do
21 anything if you and your Serbs support Bosnia and Herzegovina, I said."
22 Now, that is you talking to Dr. Karadzic, is it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And then the next bit, "How come you and I disagree when our
25 bosses have the same position on Bosnia and Herzegovina?" Is that --
1 according to you, is that Dr. Karadzic talking, is it, or you?
2 A. Dr. Karadzic.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, that's so self-evident in the context
4 of this conversation that I really -- if the answer in the context of a
5 conversation is "Remember Radovan, I have no political boss," then of
6 course the previous one could be words spoken by Karadzic. It's ...
7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I accept that. When I was reading
8 through a moment ago, I had actually felt it was not sufficiently
9 self-evident but I now see that it was. My apologies, Your Honour. I
10 now see that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. STEWART:
13 Q. And he was -- those are his exact words, are they, as far as you
15 A. You mean Dr. Karadzic's words?
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Yes, they are.
18 Q. And first noted by you how long after the conversation?
19 A. Well, I cannot tell you that. You know why? Because when this
20 whole story about historic agreements started, then I wrote this sentence
21 by sentence, excerpt by excerpt, then they went to Belgrade to sign
22 something and didn't sign it and then it was all wrapped up. But if you
23 really want to know, I can tell you that this is Karadzic's statement.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kljuic, the question was: How long after the
25 conversation you noted it down. You said, "Well, I cannot tell you
1 that." That's an answer to the question. The next question might have
2 been whether you would have a time frame but that's just what Mr. Stewart
3 asked you.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
5 MR. STEWART:
6 Q. Then you go back to, in this record, whatever it is, you go back
7 to the conversation you had with Izetbegovic and you say, "An offer had
8 allegedly been made to him for the Muslims to remain in Yugoslavia and he
9 would then become the president of the Assembly in Yugoslavia."
10 Then it is you saying, "It's true, you could be the president of
11 the Assembly; however, it would not be the Assembly of Yugoslavia but
12 that of Serbia."
13 "So you're saying that they made you an offer for your people to
14 be --" and there's a question mark in English, it's the "second largest
15 in Yugoslavia."
16 Is that what your note says in the original?
17 A. Yes. Yes. That was the conversation.
18 Q. And it goes on: "And who is the second largest people in Serbia
19 today? The ethnic Albanians. There, they're offering you the same
20 position as the ethnic Albanians now have, I said."
21 Now, where you said "It would not be the Assembly of Yugoslavia
22 but that of Serbia," what precisely were you meaning there?
23 A. Well, it is clear that thereby, Muslims would have remained in a
24 rump Yugoslavia in which Serbs would have an absolute majority and
25 Muslims would indeed be the people number two in that state, that they
1 would not have the parliamentary power to have any decision they wanted
2 actually voted for.
3 Q. And then you say that Mr. Izetbegovic "... ended the conversation
4 by saying quietly, as if to himself, 'No it's not going to happen.'"
5 Was that said so that -- in a way that Mr. Izetbegovic would have
6 known that you heard what he said?
7 A. Correct, and he sort of waved his hand.
8 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, I have no further questions.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.
10 Mr. Harmon.
11 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions, Your Honour. Thank
13 JUDGE ORIE: I might have a few. I'm afraid that I'm badly
14 organised because I ...
15 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for being badly organised because the
17 underlying material I would like to confront the witness with is not in
18 my binder here at this moment.
19 I suggest that we take a break now, that I have one or two or
20 three questions for you, Mr. Kljuic, and that might be the end of your
21 examination. In order not to waste any further time, I'd like to have a
22 break now for 20 minutes so we'll continue at 25 minutes past 12.00 and
23 the parties should then prepare for the next witness to be called after
25 --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kljuic, I've got a few questions for you. They
3 are related to some intercepts we heard.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE ORIE: The first and very simple question: Do you know who
6 Mr. Milinkovic.
7 A. I don't know.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Short question, short answer. Thank you for that.
9 Then we heard an intercept, a conversation between Jovan Tintor
10 and Mr. Krajisnik of the 4th of April 1992. I'm going to read a small
11 portion of that conversation to you.
12 Mr. Tintor says: "Look, I called you this morning to... to
13 check about this thing, these people from Slavonski Brod have been
14 calling me... fuck, military."
15 Mr. Krajisnik then says, "Look, Simovic and Joko have gone there.
16 I called down there. The SDS and HDZ representatives, they will receive
17 them. Go there and try to calm the situation down. I know that this
18 vice-president of theirs from the HDZ, what was his name?"
19 Mr. Tintor says: "Um-um --"
20 Mr. Krajisnik says: "He will, because there seems to be a third
21 party that's trying to mess this up and it doesn't suit neither Muslim,
22 neither Croats, nor Serbs that there is chaos there."
23 This is a conversation about events that happened in Slavonski
24 Brod close to the 4th of April, 1992. Do you have any personal knowledge
25 of what happened exactly in Slavonski Brod?
1 A. I have to tell you that the town of Slavonski Brod is in the
2 Republic of Croatia. Perhaps this has to do with Bosanski Brod which is
3 in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then know anything that happened in
5 Bosanski Brod at that very moment?
6 A. The situation in Bosanski Brod was very difficult because a large
7 number of civilians was fleeing to Croatia where, at that time, peace
8 already prevailed. Whether the Yugoslav Peoples' Army wanted to control
9 the bridge or not, I cannot tell you. But during the war in Croatia,
10 this bridge was, in part, made unpassable.
11 This is the route that is most frequently used between Slovenia
12 and Croatia on the one hand, and the southern part of what was formerly
13 Yugoslavia. I don't know the details, but if this has to do with
14 Posavina and the vice-president of HDZ, that was Niko Stanic.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was that bridge impassable already on the 4th
16 of April, 1992?
17 A. Tanks and trucks and cars could not cross over it, but I believe
18 that pedestrians could.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
20 Then finally, I'd like to take you back to your testimony of the
21 29th of September, page 6.306. You were asked about a telephone
22 conversation between Mr. Stojic and Mr. -- no, no, I'm making a mistake.
23 At that time, it was Mr. Kvesic and Mr. Mandic speaking to each other.
24 I'll just read a small part of that.
25 A. Yes, if I may, Mr. Kvesic.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Branko Kvesic.
2 A. Branko Kvesic, Momo Mandic, Bruno Stojic and I don't know what
3 Stanisic's first name is. But that was the conversation, the four of
4 them. Mico Stanisic.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well I read just one part of a conversation
6 between Kvesic and Mandic on the 5th of May, 1992.
7 Mr. Kvesic said, "So you are right there in Pale, are you?"
8 Mandic: "Well, we are not. We came down to the city."
9 Kvesic: "Yes. Yes."
10 Mandic: "We came down and cleaned Grbavica..."
11 Kvesic: "Is that so?"
12 Mandic: There we hold Ilidza, Dobrinja, and Nedzarici, all the
13 way to student campus and so on."
14 You were asked questions about this telephone conversation on the
15 29th of September, and part of your answer, page 6.306 was after you --
16 you said the following:
17 "And already then Mandic is reporting and saying that Grbavica is
18 being cleared and the greater crime was committed at Grbavica which was
19 otherwise a multi-ethnic settlement."
20 Then you summarized that. You said something about taking over
21 the police school in Vrace, and then you continue:
22 "It's densely populated area and when he says -- when Momo Mandic
23 says that they have cleaned Grbavica, that means that they have -- that
24 they took away many people. Some they killed. Some went in for exchange
25 so that Grbavica already at that period of time, when this conversation
1 took place in May, actually it had already been in ethnically cleaned,
2 cleansed. And he is bragging to Kvesic about this."
3 That was your answer.
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any knowledge of cleaning or cleansing
6 of Grbavica?
7 A. Of course I do. I visited a lady immediately after the
8 liberation of Grbavica. The lady was a proofreader in the editing house,
9 newspaper house of Oslobodjenje where I first started working as a
10 journalist. Her name is Maja Fulanovic. At that point, I saw a woman
11 who had spent four years in a room, one of the few Catholics to have
12 survived in Grbavica thanks to the assistance of her neighbour Serbs.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. First of all, if you say "After
14 the liberation of Grbavica," you may be aware that what is a liberation
15 and what is an aggression is looked at from different points of view.
16 Do I understand by the liberation that you mean when Grbavica was
17 not under Serb control anymore?
18 A. Yes, I'm speaking from my point of view.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you give that a date?
20 A. That was immediately after the reintegration which began in early
21 1996. I can't tell you the exact date. But I know for a fact about this
22 and I have a witness who went with me. He was a well-known --
23 JUDGE ORIE: So your answer is that was the date is early 1996.
24 Now, you started telling us -- what I'd like to know is whether you have
25 any personal knowledge, not reconstruction after a couple of years, but
1 what did you see or hear at the time you said Grbavica was cleaned or
3 A. Of course I do not have firsthand knowledge because I wasn't
4 there. But many people who had fled over from there came to see me.
5 Like for instance the academician Ciglar, a first-rate intellectual, also
6 a Croat, who had survived those very difficult circumstances and once
7 Grbavica was liberated, he came over to see me and thank me. There are
8 many other people who were either exchanged or managed to flee from
9 there, told me about what the situation was like in Grbavica.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell me what exactly they told you, those
11 who were exchanged, one of the categories.
12 A. Since I was interested in knowing how some of the people fared in
13 Grbavica, I had many friends there, I was told that the poet Jakov
14 Jurisic had been killed, that many people had been killed. There were
15 also different cases when someone from Belgrade or Serbia went over there
16 and fetched people to save them. I've also heard stories like that.
17 There is a lot of written material as well produced by
18 eyewitnesses who wanted to portray the situation as it was in Grbavica at
19 the time.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Those exchanged, were they kept in detention before
21 they were exchanged? Did they tell you about that?
22 A. Some of them were kept in detention, others weren't. Others were
23 in hiding in different homes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Were they civilians?
25 A. All of them were. There were no military formations, either
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 those of the military or of the Territorial Defence in Grbavica.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you said that people were killed, that
3 you were told that people were killed. Did they tell you how they were
5 A. They did not, I did not learn any such information; however, as
6 some of the bodies were exhumed from graves one could learn that most of
7 them were killed as a result of an injury by a blunt object or as a
8 result of a gunshot.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which leaves it still open that they were
10 intentionally killed or that they were hit by a bullet although not being
11 specifically targeted.
12 A. Yes, far from anything specific. And I cannot claim with any
13 certainty this might have been the case; however, this was a campaign.
14 When Mr. Mandic says that everything was cleansed in one month, then you
15 can imagine what sort of hell it must have been.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing I was trying to do to see whether
17 apart from this telephone conversation that you would have specific
18 knowledge on what happened in Grbavica. Apart from this -- these words
19 spoken by the person who took part in that telephone conversation.
20 Thank you very much for your answers.
21 Any further questions? Mr. Stewart, not.
22 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.
24 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
1 Mr. Kljuic, perhaps I --
2 First, Mr. Stewart. At this moment in view of the notes - I
3 hardly dare to use the word - is there anything -- the Chamber has very
4 much in mind at this moment, also in view of what the 37 page the witness
5 has brought us both on paper and in examination that it is -- well, it's
6 not the most relevant material we've seen during this trial.
7 The Chamber would suggest that if the material received now and
8 any material we hopefully receive after I've invited the witness to send
9 it to us would raise any further need to specifically pay attention to
10 it, that written submissions could be filed in that respect. But I leave
11 it to you to address us and to say whether you would think that another
12 approach would be more appropriate.
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour is talking of written submissions as
14 to, for example, the question of whether Mr. Kljuic should then be
15 cross-examined further?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I didn't use those words, but if you --
17 MR. STEWART: It's hard to avoid it, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: If it's in your mind, I do understand, yes.
19 MR. STEWART: I'm not quite sure what other process.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I didn't want to encourage you in that sense,
22 MR. STEWART: I need no encouragement, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: It doesn't surprise me that it was on your mind.
24 MR. STEWART: Well of course it is, Your Honour, because I've
25 made that very clear because after all, we're talking about the -- we
1 must, with respect, we suggest, Your Honour, all be extremely open-minded
2 about it because we simply do not know what might arrive.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore no door is closed and if the Defence
4 think that there is any need to further cross-examine Mr. Kljuic on the
5 basis of any notes either received yet but not yet translated, or any
6 notes still to be received, we'd like to receive written submissions on
8 MR. STEWART: Of course, Your Honour.
9 May I also just inquire briefly, Your Honour, it may be -- there
10 seems to be some breakdown of communication over which I've made a
11 request of the Trial Chamber, but would it be appropriate for the
12 Defence, and of course the Prosecution would have the same opportunity,
13 to ask -- I think it's what happened before, to comment on any draft
14 communication to be sent to Mr. Kljuic in relation to this matter.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if there's any need to further communicate with
16 Mr. Kljuic, I'll address an invitation to Mr. Kljuic now. If there's any
17 need for further communication in writing, then first the other party
18 should be informed about it. If the Chamber would address Mr. Kljuic,
19 you would be informed about that.
20 MR. STEWART: I'm very much obliged, Your Honour. May I
21 respectfully suggest that it just really wouldn't be a bad idea if
22 whatever Your Honour were about to say were followed up with a written
23 communication to avoid any possible misunderstanding.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take note of that.
25 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kljuic, a lot has been said -- no, no, please
2 remain seated.
3 Mr. Kljuic, a lot has been said about notes, notes made at the
4 time; notes of meetings; notes further included in draft sections of your
5 book. This morning, you specifically said to Mr. Stewart that there
6 still might be some notes you have made of meetings in 1991, 1992. You
7 also said that you are willing to review your material and to see whether
8 there is still any there. You also said that you would be willing to
9 send it to the Tribunal.
10 May I invite you to do that. And would that be possible to do
11 that within, well, let's say the next two weeks?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I lose a lot of time coming here
13 and going back and I'm currently advisor for foreign relations -- for
14 foreign policy in the government and I currently have a lot of work
15 there. I have come here for the reasons stated before, although I am
16 recovering from my illness. And you have said that I should give them to
17 you within two weeks. I will do so.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I just was trying to find out whether two weeks
19 would be a reasonable time. If you say -- if you are more comfortable
20 with three weeks ...
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I find the material sooner, in
22 three days, I will send it forthwith. You have to understand me that
23 it's a room full of papers, newspapers, articles, and so on.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kljuic, we have full understanding for your
25 daily schedule especially having recovered from your illness. The
1 Chamber invites you to send within the next three weeks any additional
2 material you would find. We'll send you a short letter to confirm that
3 and then we'll see whether to what that finally will lead, what it leads
4 to anything in this courtroom, yes or no.
5 Mr. Kljuic, you've come already two times now, you've spent five
6 days in this courtroom. I'd like to thank you for answering questions of
7 both parties and the Bench and I wish you not only a safe trip home
8 again, but also a further good recovery from your illness.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, I think exhibits in respect to Mr.
12 Kljuic have not been dealt with yet -- the Prosecution have. Then
13 there's only the remainder which is I think D40 and D41. Any objections?
14 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then they are admitted into evidence. The new
16 procedure is that we just call the numbers and that the parties are in
17 the position to give any comment on the final description of the
18 documents in the list as prepared by the registry.
19 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
20 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No protective measures?
22 MR. HARMON: If I may have leave of the Court, Your Honour. Mr.
23 Margetts will be involved with the next witness and he will respond, Your
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, would Your Honours mind if I could
2 stay tor a few minutes and then slip out as quietly as I can.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Any functional absence due to the change of
4 witnesses, permission is granted for the rest of this trial. But I of
5 course appreciate the politeness shown by both parties.
6 Mr. Margetts, no protective measures?
7 MR. MARGETTS: No protective measures, Your Honour.
8 MS. LOUKAS: Just prior to that, Your Honour, there is an issue I
9 need to raise.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be raised in the presence of the witness or
11 would we prefer to have that done --
12 MS. LOUKAS: I think it's preferable in the absence of the
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will ask Mr. Usher to wait for a few moments
15 before the witness is brought in.
16 Ms. Loukas.
17 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I just indicated to the
18 court that I received a second supplemental information sheet in relation
19 to this witness at approximately 11.30 a.m. by e-mail this morning. Now,
20 Your Honour, there was a prior supplemental information sheet that's
21 dated 7th of April. That's last week.
22 Now, Your Honours, firstly, that sort of lateness is not
23 acceptable. Secondly -- particularly in view of the fact that the
24 witness is being interviewed since the apparently from -- from the face
25 of the supplemental sheet, from the 7th of April. Thirdly, I've spoken
1 to Mr. Margetts prior to Your Honours coming on the bench and he
2 indicated as far as he was concerned, there was no real difference
3 between the supplemental information sheet of one sentence and one
4 paragraph of the 7th of April and the supplemental information sheet
5 extending over a page of the 11th of April.
6 I will allow Your Honours to be the judge of the differences
7 between the supplemental information sheets and I hand them up for this
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will receive them.
10 But first of all, Mr. Margetts, is there any explanation for the
11 7th of April where we are living the 12th today or do you disagree.
12 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I disagree with two things. The
13 supplemental information sheet is not an important issue but it was
14 provided as 11.08 not 11.30.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's great.
16 MR. MARGETTS: Secondly, the representation that I have suggested
17 there's no difference is not a representation I made. I don't know how
18 it's being perceived that way.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. What I asked you was about the date.
20 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, sorry, apologies.
21 Yes, the witness arrived on the Wednesday last week and as Your
22 Honour knows, I've been heavily involved in the witness that preceded Mr.
23 Kljuic, Mr. Trbojevic. And so my meetings with him on the Thursday and
24 the Friday of last week have been short.
25 I did have an opportunity to meet with him yesterday for a longer
1 period. The -- immediately upon receiving some additional information
2 last Thursday, we provided that to the Defence. Immediately upon
3 receiving the additional information or some corrections yesterday, we
4 proceeded to put that in a form of a supplemental information sheet.
5 Obviously the supplemental information sheets can be provided late in the
6 evening on the day that that supplemental information is provided and
7 both the Prosecution and Defence do work late into the evening so that's
8 the usual course. It is clear that this was not what occurred with this
9 supplemental information sheet but it was provided at 11.00.
10 Our position is this: That on this particular supplemental
11 information sheet, the information relates to matters that are either
12 substantially within the Defence's knowledge from the previous statement
13 and amounts to small corrections, or alternatively matters that can be
14 easily perceived and incorporated by Defence in their analysis of the
15 evidence that's to be provided.
16 Supplemental information sheets by their very nature, are an
17 advantage to the Defence. Ordinarily if there was not proofing, the
18 Defence would find out about these corrections and this additional
19 information in the course of examination-in-chief which is not prior to
20 the witness arriving here. So in this instance, I see that practically,
21 the Defence has benefited by the information we've provided and the
22 dispute seems to be as to whether it should have been provided late last
23 night --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. MARGETTS: -- or early this morning. And frankly, Your
1 Honour, we do our best to provide it at the earliest possible time.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was it -- was the information sheet prepared
4 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, it was prepared yesterday.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then there's no reason why not that takes just ten
6 seconds to send it by e-mail to Ms. Loukas so that Ms. Loukas is master
7 of her time to the extent possible, which is not a great extent anyhow.
8 So let that be clear. I mean either late in the evening you
9 finish by sending an e-mail or you start in the morning by sending an
10 e-mail. I think it's fair that it should be done late in the evening.
11 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, could I just for the record say that
12 it was not the intent of the Prosecution for this to go out this morning
13 but it did go out this morning. But our point is that really, this
14 amounts to absolutely no prejudice to the Defence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It doesn't change what I just said.
16 Ms. Loukas, could we be provided with the supplemental information sheet.
17 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. This is the supplemental
18 information sheet of the 7th of April and this is the one that arrived
19 this morning which I indicated was approximately 11.30 but I am so
20 thankful that Mr. Margetts points out it's 11.08 because it so added to
21 his argument.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, could you tell us what bothers you most,
24 I take it especially in the 11.08.
25 MS. LOUKAS: Well, indeed, I don't think it's hardly a point and
1 I don't propose to address it. It is of no real consequence and of
2 course I think that --
3 JUDGE ORIE: If you say it's -- we are not going -- it will not
4 -- we'll not cause to ask us for further delays to examination of this
6 MS. LOUKAS: No, I shouldn't think so.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then proceed, but at the same time, I think
8 you've made your point.
9 The last thing we do before going to sleep is to ask ourselves
10 whether we have sent every material to the other party. That's the basic
12 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, that's certainly what I do before
13 I go to sleep. And I would recommend to Mr. Margetts he does the same.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Margetts are you ready to ...
15 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, we're ready to proceed.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Omeragic into
17 the courtroom.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 WITNESS: SEAD OMERAGIC
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Omeragic. Can you hear me in a
22 language you understand?
23 Mr. Omeragic, before you give evidence in this court, the Rules
24 of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that
25 will you speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 text is now handed out to you by the usher. I invite you to make that
2 solemn declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak
4 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
6 Please be seated, Mr. Omeragic. You will first be examined by
7 Mr. Margetts, counsel for the Prosecution.
8 Mr. Margetts, before you start, is my recollection correct that
9 it is three hours on --
10 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, four hours was what we had specified.
11 I have indicated to the Defence that we may possibly be quicker than that
12 but we would be in a better position to judge that at the end of the
13 first session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Margetts. On the basis of what the Chamber
15 has seen, that is the statement, if you focus at what really -- if at
16 least the testimony is about what he has told you in the statement, it
17 could be done without any problem in half that time.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour, you will attempt to
20 expedite the examination.
21 Examined by Mr. Margetts:
22 Q. Mr. Omeragic, could you please state your full name for the
24 A. My name is Sead Omeragic.
25 Q. And Mr. Omeragic, you were born on the 7th of July 1958 in
1 Trebinje, Bosnia and Herzegovina and your ethnicity is Bosniak; is that
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In 1982, you graduated from Sarajevo University and in 1983, you
5 commenced your career which you are still pursuing as a journalist; is
6 that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, as far as the CV is concerned which is
9 the first part of his statement, would there be any problem if we would
10 refer to the statement in that respect?
11 MS. LOUKAS: No problem whatsoever, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.
13 MR. MARGETTS:
14 Q. When the war commenced in Bosnia and Herzegovina were you working
15 for the newspaper Slobodna Bosna?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. In early 1992, that's early April 1992, did you learn that forces
18 commanded by Arkan, Zeljko Raznjatovic, had assumed control or Bijeljina
19 city and a delegation of the Presidency of SR BiH had failed to gain
20 access to the town on or around the 2nd of April?
21 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that we've actually
22 gone straight into the heart of the question via a leading question and I
23 do object to that. The sort of information that needs to be elicited
24 about the Presidency and what have you should, in my submission, be led
25 from the witness without leading questions.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, I see in the statement about the visit
2 on the 4th of April and how important and relevant is it that that two
3 days earlier, as you suggested in your question, that a visit failed?
4 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, it's not an important matter, it was
5 really a matter of trying to set the logic up for Your Honours. But if
6 Your Honours have read the statement then we don't need this information.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may have taken from my earlier objections
8 that we have. Please proceed.
9 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. On the 4th of April, 1992, a further delegation visited Bijeljina
11 including Fikret Abdic, Biljana Plavsic, General Prascevic and yourself
12 and you accompanied Fikret Abdic; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, correct.
14 Q. When you Fikret Abdic, you did so in the guise of his body guard
15 Fikret Abdic having told you that you were too large physically to appear
16 as his chief of cabinet; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Would you tell the Court what Fikret Abdic was and what his
19 position was at the time and who General Prascevic what and what his
20 position was at the time.
21 A. Fikret Abdic was a member of the Presidency of Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina, which was then the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and
23 he was one of six members of the Presidency. General Prascevic was some
24 sort of man number two in the 2nd Corps of the army under the command of
25 General Kukanjac who was based in Sarajevo.
1 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to present the first exhibit
2 to the witness. That's the article that was published on the 10th of
3 April, 1992.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The exhibit may be presented to the witness. Is
5 that the same as attached to the statement?
6 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Is it part of the statement? Would it be included
8 in the statement if tendered and admitted into evidence? You understand
9 what I mean?
10 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, it's not exhibited to the
11 statement formally on the first page of the statement but it is referred
12 to and explained in the second paragraph of the statement so we would
13 tender it with the statement, if the statement was to go into evidence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: As an attachment.
15 MR. MARGETTS: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So at this need moment, to need to give it a
17 separate exhibit number.
18 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, would you like us to tender the
19 statement with the attachment at this stage.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We could give it an exhibit number at this moment.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want to tender that? It's not entirely clear
23 whether you have any 89 (F) in mind or not at all.
24 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour, this is a viva voce because we
25 didn't intend tendering the statement but it's really not a matter that
1 we have a position on.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's then take the -- let's then take the
3 article as an exhibit.
4 Madam Registrar.
5 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Prosecution Exhibit P584.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And that's the publication with the headline "The
7 Bloody Bajram in Bijeljina," of the 10th of April, 1992.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.
9 MR. MARGETTS:
10 Q. Mr. Omeragic, the article that you have before you, is that an
11 article you wrote upon your return from Bijeljina and was published in
12 Slobodna Bosna on the 10th of April, 1992?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Omeragic. I have no further questions in relation
15 to that exhibit.
16 I'd like now to turn to your travel to Bijeljina. Is it correct
17 that you drove in a convoy of around of about five cars? You were in one
18 car with Fikret Abdic and Biljana Plavsic was in another vehicle in the
19 same convoy.
20 A. Yes. I was in Mr. Abdic's car and I was seated right behind his
21 official driver. His bodyguard was sitting next to me. Mrs. Biljana
22 Plavsic, in her car, was most of the time behind us. She was in the car
23 together with her driver and her bodyguard. I don't believe they had a
24 fourth passenger.
25 And another vehicle was the jeep of General Prascevic. He had
1 his own escorts including a young man that I knew. I believe he had the
2 rank of staff sergeant. There were some police escorts, but they weren't
3 much help in crossing the checkpoints we encountered on the way.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Omeragic. When you passed through the city of
5 Ugljevik which I believe is about 15 minutes outside of Bijeljina, could
6 you describe to the Court what you observed there in terms of the
7 presence of military personnel.
8 A. First we reached a barricade where an old yellow truck was placed
9 across the road like a roadblock and there were large piles of sand in
10 addition to the truck so it was very difficult to pass through. Even
11 later when they allowed us through, I looked to the side and I saw some
12 civilians who had their guns trained on us. We were stopped originally
13 by uniformed persons who I believe belonged to the Territorial Defence,
14 some 7 or 8 of them. We negotiated for a while about whether they would
15 allow us to go through.
16 Mrs. Biljana Plavsic talked to them and it seemed to work;
17 however, all of us representatives from the media were forced to turn
18 around and go back and even later, whenever journalists wanted to come to
19 Bijeljina from Sarajevo, they had to use different roads. I was the only
20 one on that occasion from the Sarajevo media to pass through.
21 Every 200 metres or so we would run into a new checkpoint. One
22 was manned by soldiers dressed in olive-green/grey uniforms. They stood
23 there almost frozen like statues, watching cars pass by.
24 Q. What ethnicity were the soldiers?
25 A. I believe they had to be Serbs.
1 Q. You said that you were the only member of the Sarajevo media
2 allowed through at that time. Was that because you were presented as the
3 bodyguard of Fikret Abdic?
4 A. I believe that was the only reason, otherwise I would have never
5 passed through.
6 Q. As you entered Bijeljina, did you observe anything about the
8 A. Well, I looked around. I was very interested in seeing what the
9 whole thing looked like. And one had to notice inevitably that all the
10 shutters were down, all the windows were hidden behind the shutters. It
11 was only once that a woman appeared through the shutters in the window.
12 I was able to see her because we were not going very fast. Her face was
13 about 10 metres away from me and there was fear in her eyes.
14 Q. As you entered Bijeljina, did you see a mosque and, if so, what
15 did you observe about that mosque?
16 A. I observed as we were entering Bijeljina that the the Serbian
17 flag was flying on top of the great mosque I believe it is the largest
18 mosque in Bijeljina on the tower. I saw that flag and I remember turning
19 to Mr. Abdic in the car and saying, "Look where they hoisted the flag."
20 It was only when we had gone on another 10 metres that Abdic said
21 suddenly, "What are you talking about? What flag?" As if it took him
22 that long to think about it. However, the driver stopped the car and we
23 got out and the driver said, "Yes, there is indeed a flag hoisted on top
24 of the mosque." And Abdic said, "Never mind, go on." However, we had
25 all seen the flag before we started again.
1 Q. Later on and we'll get to this in your evidence, but you did tour
2 the town and you spoke to various people. In your conversations with
3 these people, did you hear any further information about the mosques in
5 A. I know there was a flag on the second mosque as well which is in
6 the city park and I also know that when Mr. Abdic wanted to enter the
7 mosque in the park, he was not allowed to. And the way he was forbidden
8 from entering is also strange.
9 At one point, a sniper started shooting over our heads and people
10 panicked, but Abdic's driver said that there was a sniper on top of the
11 mosque so this whole attempt fell through.
12 In front of me, there were two Arkan's men and I heard them
13 talking and we were going around the town, they were talking precisely
14 about that and they were saying something like, "It would be a real
15 surprise if they went into the mosque."
16 Another thing was inside the mosques, people were saying victims
17 were being hidden from public view. That may have been the reason why
18 they didn't let Mr. Abdic go in.
19 Another thing I heard was that the mosques were looted on the
20 first day. I heard these men talking about it saying that it was the
21 local Serbs who had done it.
22 Q. At some stage did you turn on radio in the car and, if so, what
23 did you hear?
24 A. As one point as we were entering Bijeljina, something happened
25 that was perhaps the greatest shock of all to me. Radio Semberija from
1 Majevica, which is in fact the Bijeljina main radio, broadcast that 25
2 bodies had been found on the main garbage dump in the town. And I
3 couldn't keep quiet in the car, I was so impressed that I said to the
4 others in the car, "Did you hear this, that 25 bodies had been found on
5 the garbage dump?" And Abdic, as if wanting to deny it said, "What are
6 you talking about? What is it that you heard?" However, the bodyguard
7 and the driver, although they must have heard it, did not support me,
8 probably out of respect for Abdic. And we just continued on our way
9 without further comment. But it stuck in my mind.
10 Q. Again, we will refer to your tour of the town but whilst you were
11 touring the town, did anyone give you similar information about the
12 garbage dump whilst you were on the tour?
13 A. I don't remember whether it was exactly on the garbage dump but I
14 remember that Arkan's men were never far away from us as we were touring
15 the town, one or two metres away from me at all times. At one point I
16 approached the people from the Territorial Defence, the uniformed men and
17 asked one of them, seeking any sort of information, I said, in fact,
18 "It's a good thing that you slaughtered those balijas." And the man
19 said, "Yes, it's good we killed them."
20 There was also some information about some murders I got from a
21 woman who intercepted me in front of the town hall. I talked to her, in
22 fact, I tried to comfort her as far as I could. Her face had an
23 unhealthy colour. She was very disappointed and upset talking about some
24 people who wanted to get out of Bijeljina at any cost. I realised later
25 that she was a Serb woman. But even she, as it turns out, wanted to
1 leave Bijeljina. I believe she was a member of some liberal party. She
2 talked about some murders and some horrors.
3 I had another encounter after we visited the hospital. I believe
4 I'll have to come back to that later.
5 I had another encounter --
6 Q. Yes, thank you, Mr. Omeragic. I'll ask you specific questions
7 about each of those encounters as we approach them in a chronological
8 sequence; however, since you have mentioned this woman, can you confirm
9 that this woman spoke to you toward the end of your tour when you were
10 outside the municipal hall?
11 A. That was certainly at the end of our visit to Bijeljina. We had
12 already toured whatever we had to tour, and we were getting ready to
14 Q. Yes. And just in relation to that conversation, did she mention
15 an old man to you by the name of Milo Lukic?
16 A. Yes, Milo Lukic. He was a brother to a national hero. I believe
17 two persons mentioned to me that he had been killed. She confirmed to me
18 that Milo Lukic, brother of a national hero from World War II - and of
19 course that was at the time the greatest praise one could get, to be
20 called national hero - well his brother, according to her, was killed
21 because he had taken into his home an entire Muslim family to keep them
22 safe. That was how she recounted it to me.
23 Q. Did she refer to any other killings?
24 A. As far as I remember, she was mentioning a cellar where some 22
25 persons had been killed because a hand grenade had been thrown amongst
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 them. And a boxer, she mentioned a boxer had also having been killed. I
2 don't know who that person was.
3 Q. What nationality were the people who had been killed?
4 A. As far as I could gather, there were 42 persons killed in all.
5 27 of them were Muslims, one was a lady Croat, and two were Serbs. I
6 believe one was an elderly man and the other one was Milo Lukic, the
7 brother of the national hero. The lady was an elderly person called
8 Milica. I don't know her last name.
9 Q. Mr. Omeragic, just for clarification, the numbers that you
10 provided as far as I can quickly add them don't appear to equate. You
11 said 42 persons were killed, 27 were Muslims, one was a Croat and two
12 were Serbs. That's a total of 30 people. Could you again specify --
13 A. No, 30. 37, I believe, were Bosniaks, Muslims. One lady Croat
14 or a man Croat, I'm not -- actually, I'm not really certain about their
15 nationalities because you know, names tend to be quite similar or
16 unusual. But I believe there were 37 Bosniaks, perhaps two Croats, and
17 then two Serbs or I'm not certain.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Omeragic. One more matter, did the lady, when she
19 was speaking to you outside the municipal hall, point anyone out to you
20 and give you any information about that person?
21 A. At one point, as I was trying to comfort her, because I was
22 frightened by the colour of her face and I had to react in some way, I
23 was telling her all the time, "Everything is going to be fine." As she
24 was telling me about these murders, she mentioned the name of Jusuf
25 Tanovic. She said that his family had been killed and that his son,
1 perhaps, had also been killed. She pointed to a person that passed by us
2 at a distance of some 60 to 70 metres along a side street as an
3 apparition or a shadow, and she said, "Well that's the person whose
4 family had been killed and he paces the town all day long and cannot find
6 Q. When the lady spoke to you, were other members of the delegation
7 present and if so, who; and how far away from you were they?
8 A. Closest to me was Mr. Fikret Abdic.
9 MS. LOUKAS: I'm trying not to object constantly though there are
10 plenty of opportunities. But just in relation to this, these compound
11 questions, Your Honour, are unacceptable. It's very simple to ask the
12 question and it doesn't require the additional aspects. They can be
13 asked seriatim and it's simply inappropriate because it suggests the
14 answer and it's just not appropriate, Your Honour. The question can be
15 asked very simply: "When the lady spoke to you, who was present?"
16 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we are in the Court's hands on this.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, on the one hand we are pressing you not to lose
18 any time and also, I do agree with you that it saves quite some time if
19 you put questions in a leading way and of course very often the Defence
20 sees no reason to --
21 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- oppose and that's highly appreciated.
23 MS. LOUKAS: I'm trying to use my discretion with these matters.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MS. LOUKAS: There is a whole series of matters that I could have
1 objected to. I'm not going to. But Your Honour, when we get this sort
2 of compound questions, when it's something that involves this sort of
3 question it really should be led in a more clear-cut fashion.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, when I said earlier that -- I'll give
5 you some more guidance once the witness has left in five minutes from
6 now, approximately. That might be more appropriate to do.
7 Until then, you are really in our hands, yes. Could you please
8 reformulate the question.
9 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Omeragic, when this lady spoke to you, were other members of
11 the delegation present?
12 A. For a while, only -- for the portion of my conversation with the
13 lady, I believe Fikret Abdic was near us and he even joined in at a
14 certain point and said, "Things will work out fine." As soon as the
15 conversation became more serious, we started talking about murders and so
16 on, he turned away and faced the municipality building where other
17 members of the delegation were, Ms. Plavsic and Mr. Prascevic.
18 Q. How far away from Ms. Plavsic and Mr. Prascevic?
19 A. They were some 7 or 8 metres away. Perhaps a bit more, I can't
20 be certain. They were further away and out of earshot.
21 Q. During the course of your visit to Bijeljina, did you meet a
22 friend of yours who was a reporter from Belgrade and if so, what did he
23 tell you?
24 A. We met and recognised each other, of course, despite the whole
25 hustle and he was a reporter for Slobodna Bosna as well where I worked.
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed the name.
2 A. At one point, as we were talking, I even tried to conceal my true
3 function there and presented myself to him as Abdic's bodyguard and
4 spokesperson and he told me, "Well when did you leave Slobodna Bosna?
5 How come you're not working there any longer?" I continued playing my
6 role because I wanted to conceal the very purpose of my being there.
7 As we were talking, he said, "Everything has been cleaned around
8 here. The streets have been cleared up so that no traces of any fighting
9 remain or traces of anything that would point to what was going on here."
10 He said the streets were cleaned, were washed, that's how he put it.
11 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I note the time. I just have a very
12 brief video clip which is 30 seconds in duration which I think we could
13 cover in the next five minutes and that is the next exhibit on the list.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If you could do it in three minutes, we could start
15 because I've got one or two observations to make.
16 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, I think we could achieve that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's get started.
18 [Videotape played]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, you may get started and meanwhile, the
20 registrar will think about numbers to be assigned.
21 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 [Videotape played]
23 MR. MARGETTS:
24 Q. Mr. Omeragic if you could just view your screen and watch this
1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] You will notice the tension, the
2 nervousness in the air.
3 MR. MARGETTS: Now, Your Honour, if we could just show the
4 witness a clip from that video.
5 Q. Mr. Omeragic, what does that video and this clip depict?
6 A. It depicts the arrival in front of the Bijeljina municipality
8 Should I take people from the left or the right?
9 Q. If you could indicate to the Court moving from the right of the
10 screen to the left who the people are depicted in that clip.
11 A. The first person at the right-hand side in jeans and the shirt is
12 me and then a bit up front to the left of me is General Prascevic. The
13 third person from the right is, I believe, Mr. Abdic's driver. The
14 fourth person is Mr. Abdic himself and the fifth person behind in uniform
15 is Predrag Milosavljevic or Vladisavljevic and the sixth person is Mr.
16 Abdic's bodyguard. I believe his name is Mahmutovic.
17 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Mr. Omeragic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would this be a point to stop.
19 First of all, a very technical matter. The text spoken has not
20 been fully translated for the transcript but I take it that the text was
21 not the most important for you.
22 Ms. Loukas, should we replay that or, if the transcript would be
23 admitted into evidence, the first is an anchorman anyhow and the words
24 according to the transcript spoken, apart from those translated are just:
25 "Indeed, we waited for quite some time for them to arrive for the
2 MS. LOUKAS: I don't have a problem with that, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then Mr. Registrar, the video would get?
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P585, Your
6 JUDGE ORIE: 585. Finally we will find out whether there are As
7 or Bs and whether we receive them on CD-ROMs, we'll do that once --
8 according to our customs and then at least the transcript is P585 and
9 then something added to that, I take it.
10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
11 JUDGE ORIE: The video clip is P585, the transcript is P585A, and
12 then English translation will be P585A.1.
13 Yes. Mr. Omeragic, it's already time to stop for the day. We
14 would like to see you back tomorrow morning, 9.00 in this same courtroom.
15 I would like to instruct you not to speak with anyone about your
16 testimony, either testimony already given or still to be given. We'd
17 like to see you back tomorrow.
18 Mr. Usher, could you escort Mr. Omeragic out of the courtroom.
19 [The witness stands down]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Two small points at this moment. First of all, we
21 received yesterday the submissions by the Defence on the recall of -- or
22 at least the further cross-examination of Mr. Bjelobrk. Will the OTP
23 respond to that or and if so, when?
24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, if I have a chance to look at this
25 evening, I can perhaps respond sometime tomorrow orally if that's
1 acceptable by the Court.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We will at least wait for news by tomorrow. That's
3 number one.
4 The second, Mr. Margetts, the issue of leading questions, of
5 course, is extremely difficult because under normal circumstances, you
6 would say no leading questions in chief; on the other hand, if we would
7 follow that system, we'd still be here in 2015.
8 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, could we put -- our position is that
9 leading questions or wholly appropriate in chief where it's not a
10 contentious matter.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. MARGETTS: So our position is a little different to that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Of course if it's not contentious you would not
14 expect any objection by the other party. That's -- the question now is
15 how to find out whether a matter is contentious or not.
16 First of all, with if we have a statement of course, there could
17 be some communication, you could be -- Ms. Loukas, you could ask specific
18 to Mr. Margetts to, in certain areas, not to lead the witness because you
19 would object. That would be of some guidance for Mr. Margetts, anyhow.
20 At the same time, if I look at the statement, what appears to be the
21 essence of what we at least would expect this testimony is -- of course
22 if we look at a statement, we see that there's quite some information of
23 what happened on the ground.
24 It is the experience of this Chamber that very often, the events
25 that happen on the ground can be put to the witness in a leading way.
1 MS. LOUKAS: And I certainly haven't objected to matters that
2 have sort, Your Honour. I'm adopting a sensible approach in these
3 matters and I'm always happy to give Mr. Margetts guidance.
4 One point that I would make is that it seems to me that -- well,
5 of course this evidence is direct evidence, of course, in relation to
6 Mrs. Plavsic and of course it was a witness that was selected when of
7 course Mrs. Plavsic was co-accused to Mr. Krajisnik.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to you if you want to make any additional
9 observations. But from what I read in this statement, I could imagine
10 that the sensitive issues are first: The knowledge of superior
11 authorities, direct knowledge on what happened on the ground. That might
12 well be a sensitive issue.
13 Perhaps the second issue that might be sensitive is the direct
14 interaction between paramilitaries and people in the superior position in
15 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
16 I would expect objections on leading specifically in those
17 fields, of course, not only because Mrs. Plavsic is a superior -- was a
18 superior authority at least; that's the impression we gained until now.
19 But also that she was in a position for a considerable period of time at
20 least that's our impression as well, on the basis of the evidence we
21 heard until now, that she was in the Presidency together with Mr.
23 So there, I would expect, as a matter of fact, that sensitivity
24 would lead to objections if you would lead the witness in that respect.
25 If I may make any other comments, since I'm pressing very much to
1 use our time as efficient as possible, I do not know whether the exact
2 formations of the cars and who was sitting next to whom and of course
3 unless you'd like to make a major point out of how at the roadblocks one
4 would pass and what would be authority of a leading politician in getting
5 through the roadblocks. But I didn't get the feeling that that's one of
6 the issues you really wanted to explore. And under those circumstances,
7 you could even wonder whether such questions are at all assisting the
8 Chamber in making the determinations it will have to make.
9 Ms. Loukas, I said I would give you an opportunity to add
10 whatever you wanted.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, fortunately there is no need for
12 me to add anything at this point. The aspects of the guidance that Your
13 Honour has indicated to Mr. Margetts, the areas, of course, that are the
14 areas that must be looked at with some sensitivity.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I also can imagine, Mr. Margetts, that the
16 examination-in-chief would then -- apart from dealing with other matters
17 but then perhaps pay more attention to those issues, I mean if they are
18 sensitive for the Defence, they might be of importance for the
19 Prosecution whereas other matters might be covered by other evidence we
20 heard on, I would say crime-base evidence. Not that Bijeljina is not
21 important for crime-base evidence also, but there, for example, one could
22 have thought about -- could have thought about 89(F).
23 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. And in that respect, I'd just
24 like to draw the Court and the Defence's attention to the 92 bis evidence
25 that has been admitted without cross-examination in regard to Bijeljina.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. We would ask ourselves what this
2 evidence, just on main crime base, without any of the other sensitive
3 issues would add to that. But of course it's up to the Prosecution to
4 present its case.
5 With apologies again - I don't want to make that a routine, I
6 hope you understand that - but with apologies to the interpreters and the
7 technicians, we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.
9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of
10 April, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.