Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11878

1 Tuesday, 12 April 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.33 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, I still can say, not yet good

6 afternoon to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours, Case Number

8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Mr. Stewart, I do understand that you would like to address the

11 Chamber at the same time, but before giving you an opportunity to do so,

12 I'd like to ask the Registry and the technicians since we met for the

13 second day the same problems in the morning with the equipment, to start

14 testing a bit earlier, perhaps tomorrow and see whether we could start in

15 time.

16 Mr. Stewart.

17 MR. STEWART: Yes, Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, very

18 briefly, it's this. That after the question of whether Mr. Trbojevic

19 should come back or give his evidence by videolink was raised by the

20 Trial Chamber on Friday, apparently immediate inquiries were made as to

21 relative costs of videolink and his coming back which was clearly

22 regarded as a material consideration although, naturally, it would not be

23 decisive consideration. It's this, Your Honour, that Your Honours have

24 in effect ruled on the matter which Your Honours raised and which was

25 briefly discussed in court on Friday in the way that the Defence wished.

Page 11879

1 So clearly I have no particular problem with that, Your Honour. It's

2 just that that is a decision among the factors as the ones I've mentioned

3 and there are other factors and I would invite the Trial Chamber at some

4 convenient point to express very clearly for the benefit of the Defence

5 and the public, indeed, and including in that the information as to the

6 relative costs because -- so these are all material considerations, it is

7 also important in this matter and for guidance in the future for such

8 matters for the Defence and the parties generally to understand as

9 clearly as possible what the Trial Chamber's approach has been in

10 reaching that decision in relation to Mr. Trbojevic, and how the relative

11 factors including the question of cost are balanced in relation to such

12 an issue.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. We'll consider the matter and we'll see

14 whether this is something suitable for general considerations or whether

15 we would deal with it at a case-by-case basis including, of course, all

16 relevant circumstances of which costs is one.

17 Then -- yes, Mr. Usher, could you please escort the witness into

18 the courtroom.

19 Mr. Stewart, could you give us any idea of how much time you

20 would still need for further cross-examination?

21 [The witness entered court]

22 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I was going to estimate about a

23 target and a hopeful, realistic target of finishing cross-examination by

24 the second break. Clearly that might be subject to the appropriate

25 adjustment in the light of the fact that it's just after 25 to 10.00.

Page 11880

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Under the 60 per cent guidance, which the

2 Chamber is not very much inclined to apply at this moment, there would be

3 another half an hour. But like I said, the Chamber in view of the

4 circumstances is not very much inclined to stick to that guidance. On

5 the other hand, until the second break would take us two and a half more

6 hours. You are invited to see whether it could be a bit shorter and the

7 Chamber will certainly assist you in working as efficiently as possible.

8 MR. STEWART: I'm much obliged for that, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I say straightaway though, just to

11 inquire and it's appropriate to make this inquiry with the witness here,

12 to speed things along -- Your Honour, I hope the Trial Chamber has

13 received and is aware of the further material which Mr. Kljuic produced.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is aware of the arrival of the material.

15 MR. STEWART: May I inquire whether the Chamber has had any

16 opportunity whatever of considering that material? Well, has taken the

17 opportunity in considering that material.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I received it this morning and we have not had an

19 opportunity yet to go through it. And of course we have no translation

20 at all, but the Chamber will wait and see what the parties will do with

21 it.

22 Mr. Harmon.

23 MR. HARMON: I have one matter to raise and that is that

24 yesterday, there was a cross-examination on a document, one of the notes

25 of Mr. Kljuic. And for purposes of this record, I think it should be

Page 11881

1 given an exhibit number if it hasn't already.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we -- yesterday, cross-examination was about I

3 think Exhibit 14.

4 MR. HARMON: 14, that's correct.

5 JUDGE ORIE: If I'm not mistaken. May I take it that you will

6 tender that?

7 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour, it was item 14 of that

8 batch, wasn't it. And yes, of course, I don't currently remember where

9 we got to in D numbers but Ms. Philpott is always on top of such things.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you assign a D number to item

11 14 of the -- well let's say the first batch of materials that Mr. Kljuic

12 had sent to the Tribunal.

13 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be Defence Exhibit D40.

14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the -- so far as the new material is

15 concerned, we received it yesterday afternoon. Your Honour appreciates

16 that it is quite naturally all in Mr. Kljuic's own language. We do have

17 some resources, of course, which enable us to cope with -- in addition to

18 Mr. Krajisnik who is not easy to get hold of in relation to such matters,

19 for obvious reasons -- we do have some resources, but Your Honour, they

20 are necessarily limited and our resources in that area do have other

21 urgent tasks at all times. So Your Honour, we have, we, the team, have

22 conducted a review of this material until sometime in the middle of the

23 night but it's not complete, Your Honour. And Mr. Krajisnik, to whom I

24 have handed the relevant new material in court this morning, has had no

25 opportunity whatever to deal with this matter.

Page 11882

1 Your Honour, it's not quite easy to know where to go here. The

2 -- at the very least, I hope that -- well, I know enough already from

3 what I have been told by Ms. Cmeric to know that a review by Mr.

4 Krajisnik of this material is not just a 15, 20 minute job.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's see, let's first continue

6 cross-examination and see whether -- how we will proceed in relation to

7 this.


9 [Witness answered through interpreter]

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart: [Continued]

11 Q. Mr. Kljuic, I'm going to have to ask you straightaway about this

12 material. Mr. Kljuic, you do not seem to have included in the previous

13 batch of items or the new batch of items -- I call them that -- of those

14 notes that you referred to in your evidence in September as your having

15 taken in the course of meetings with, for example, Dr. Karadzic and then

16 a number of other people were mentioned.

17 Mr. Kljuic, have you simply left such notes behind you back in

18 Sarajevo?

19 A. No. All the notes that I made at that time were integrated with

20 the material that I sent to you. As I was writing certain chapters, I

21 was giving the attitude towards the future of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

22 constitutional amendments so that my notes are basically interwoven into

23 these texts.

24 Q. Mr. Kljuic, can I get it clear. Are you saying that there is no

25 material in the form of any notes or memorandums of any sort written by

Page 11883

1 you in 1990, 1991, 1992, in relation to all these political matters, that

2 there are no such notes back in Sarajevo additional to what you have

3 delivered already to this Tribunal?

4 A. No, not as such. They were used for my writing and were then

5 dispensed of.

6 Q. Mr. Kljuic, that's -- I'm asking you about what is currently

7 physically in existence. Are you saying there is nothing of any possible

8 relevance to your evidence prepared by you back in Sarajevo additionally

9 to what you have already given this Tribunal?

10 A. The parts that were already described, no. As for the rest, I

11 don't know whether there's something else within my documentation.

12 Whatever I could find I have brought over with me. However, there are no

13 specific notes concerning these meetings because I integrated them into

14 my book and I have them as sections of my book, but you've said that

15 you're not interested in it.

16 Q. I only ask questions, Mr. Kljuic. But you are quite right, my

17 primary interest in the questions is not in chapters of your book as

18 opposed to contemporaneous matters and His Honour Judge Orie made that

19 clear to you back in September. That's the background to it.

20 Mr. Kljuic, is it this that when you have used or -- notes,

21 contemporaneous notes that you had made in 1990, 1991, 1992, when you

22 have used those for a chapter in your book, you have then thrown them

23 away or destroyed them, have you?

24 A. Yes, they were destroyed because the secretaries, once they typed

25 them out, there was no more need for them because this was an enormous

Page 11884

1 amount of documentation containing even copies of newspaper articles.

2 This was basically a documentation centre from which I took only those

3 parts that I was interested in and I dispensed of the rest.

4 Q. Mr. Kljuic, let's just focus on your own notes that you - forget

5 newspaper articles - your own notes that you told this Tribunal in sent

6 you had made at meetings with Dr. Karadzic and so on. You agree, do you,

7 that -- maybe at the time, but looking back, these were, for better or

8 worse, historic events that you were involved with, weren't they? That's

9 obvious, Mr. Kljuic, isn't it, please?

10 A. First of all, I've never stated that I made any notes of the

11 talks with Mr. Karadzic.

12 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... please answer my question,

13 Mr. Kljuic. I thought you might simply readily agree. These were

14 historic events, weren't they, that you were involved in?

15 A. Absolutely so.

16 Q. And you are an academic; correct?

17 A. One could put it that way. I'm not a member of any academy,

18 though.

19 Q. You're writing a book; correct?

20 A. I have written several books so far, plays, yes.

21 Q. You're writing a book that you've told this Tribunal about,

22 aren't you? That's what we're talking about.

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. And you're saying that as you go along, you throw away - please

25 say whether this is right or wrong. You have thrown away your original

Page 11885

1 source material consisting of your own notes from that historic period;

2 is that what you're saying?

3 A. Once I've used up my own note for the purposes of my book, that's

4 good enough for me. I get rid of these old papers because they are

5 personal notes and not documents of any significance for others.

6 Q. Is the answer yes, you have thrown away your own contemporaneous

7 notes of these meetings, for example, with Dr. Karadzic?

8 A. Yes, because they were transposed into new texts. So I have not

9 torn them up without having used them. I have used them in the parts

10 that I deemed fit and then threw them away because I got rid of a number

11 of other papers dating from that period.

12 Q. Have you finished with and therefore thrown away all the notes

13 that you mentioned in September that you took of any meetings at which

14 Mr. -- Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Koljevic, Mrs. Plavsic and so on

15 were present?

16 A. All the papers that I have used and copied from were thrown.

17 Other contemporaneous papers from 1990, 1991, 1992 that I have not used

18 for my book, I have brought them over for you to see. Had I known that

19 13 years later, anyone would inquire of me to show these papers, I would

20 have them now because as it was, I merely considered them my property.

21 Q. You referred to -- I'm pretty sure you did, refer to a secretary

22 typing up your notes. Is that one stage of the process of your work that

23 your handwritten notes of meetings in that period, 1990 to 1992, were

24 typed up?

25 A. Only the portions that were deemed significant by me were typed

Page 11886

1 out and are contained in these texts.

2 Q. And was the typed-up version, then, of such notes, also thrown

3 away as you incorporated such material into chapters or draft chapters of

4 your book?

5 A. Depending on the case. Not necessarily all of them, but I was

6 interested in having them transposed into my book as their final version.

7 Everything else was considered by me to be merely a preparatory version

8 while writing the book.

9 Q. Let me go as directly as I can to it, Mr. Kljuic. Apart from the

10 material that you've already supplied to the Tribunal in two batches, do

11 you or might you have back in Bosnia either original notes of yours made

12 in 1990, 1991, or 1992 in relation to these political events or typed-up

13 copies or typed-up versions of such notes? That is if you want the

14 question given to you again, Mr. Kljuic, then I would take it that that

15 is a yes or no question.

16 A. There is no need for repeating.

17 Q. Is the answer yes or no, please?

18 A. There may be some, I'm not sure. I would have to check.

19 Q. Would you be willing to check as soon as convenient when you

20 return to Sarajevo?

21 A. Absolutely.

22 Q. And would you be willing, without any expurgation or sifting to

23 supply copies of all that material to this Tribunal, if so requested?

24 A. I have already given two batches of these papers; therefore,

25 there's no reason why I shouldn't give you this one as well.

Page 11887

1 Q. I take that as a yes, you would be willing, Mr. Kljuic.

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, either now or at some point that's

4 convenient, I do invite the Tribunal to -- to the Trial Chamber to make

5 that request. I'm in Your Honours' hands as to when, of course -- well

6 strictly whether. But I'm inviting that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll consider that.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

9 MR. STEWART: If Your Honour is at any point -- may I just say if

10 Your Honour's at any point considering rejecting that request, might I

11 please be given a suitable opportunity at a suitable point of making

12 submissions first.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may. We'll consider whether we are

14 inclined or not inclined to give such an order. If we are not inclined

15 to give such an order, we'll giver you an opportunity to make brief

16 submissions on the matter.

17 MR. STEWART: I'm obliged, Your Honour. And I'm sure of course

18 the Trial Chamber would give Mr. Harmon whatever opportunity is suitable

19 for him in whatever circumstances. I wouldn't of course resist that.

20 Q. Mr. Kljuic, I'm now going to turn back to some of the evidence

21 which you've already given in this case. At page, it's 6.100. Your

22 Honour likes the day -- it's Monday, the 27th of September, 2004, you

23 said, it's line 5, "Since after Dayton Accords were signed, Karadzic

24 could not occupy a political position having been eliminated by Americans

25 from political life and that was one of the conditions of the Dayton

Page 11888












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 11889

1 Accords. Mr. Krajisnik became officially the leader of Bosnian Serbs."

2 In what -- you say "officially." In what way did Mr. Krajisnik

3 become officially the leader of the Bosnian Serbs?

4 A. Very simply, he has become a candidate of -- for the president --

5 to be a become a member of the Presidency. He won the elections after

6 the Dayton Accord and became a member of the Presidency.

7 Q. What made him the -- officially the leader of the Bosnian Serbs?

8 A. This position in the Presidency, because in the aftermath of the

9 Dayton Accords, only three members were elected on the Presidency, these

10 were the three representatives of the three ethnic groups, Croats, Serbs

11 and Muslims. Having been elected a member of the Presidency, he

12 officially became a representative of Bosnian Serbs.

13 Q. Who became, at that point, the president of Republika Srpska?

14 A. I don't remember. Perhaps Poplasen or Ms. Plavsic, they were

15 presidents after the war, but I don't remember.

16 Q. Yes, I put it to you that it was Mrs. Plavsic that you don't --

17 well it's at least apparent - you don't recall anything to contradict

18 that, do you?

19 A. Well, undoubtedly, this was an electoral position.

20 Q. And Mr. Buha became the president of the SDS, didn't he?

21 A. Possibly so. I don't remember.

22 Q. You said, and this is the next page of that transcript, page

23 6.101, line 5: "Later, we would get a major confirmation that not all

24 Serbs were in favour of Karadzic and when a referendum for the

25 independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina was declared on 22nd of March,

Page 11890

1 1991, a great number of Serbs, possibly a third, and there would have

2 been even more if the referendum had not been declared on the entire

3 territory, did support the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

4 Is that speculation, assessment, or based on some hard facts your

5 one-third, "possibly one-third" remark?

6 A. Your question is first of all a bit confusing. There are several

7 inaccuracies in it. The referendum for the independence of Bosnia and

8 Herzegovina was the 29th of February and the 22nd of March.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Not the 22nd of March. Interpreter's

10 correction.

11 A. So the information contained in my testimony is as follows: You

12 have to know that the structure of the population deferred from the

13 structure of the electoral body in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 At that time, there was 44.6 per cent of the Muslims in the

15 entire population; however, since that percentage was constituted by a

16 lot of children, there was only 39 per cent of those eligible to vote

17 among them.

18 Now, the situation with Croats was different. There was 17.3 per

19 cent of Croats in the population; however, there was 21 per cent of the

20 Croats eligible to vote.

21 A similar situation existed with the Serbs. The results of the

22 referendum of -- were very clear. Some 40-odd per cent -- or rather

23 60-odd per cent voted in favour of the independence. Had there been no

24 Serb votes, the referendum would not have been successful. It is

25 therefore certain that the Serbs living in towns in urban areas voted in

Page 11891

1 favour of the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina and it is equally

2 true that the numbers of those that would have voted in favour of the

3 independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina would have been much higher had

4 Karadzic and his lot not thwarted the vote in many municipalities where

5 they were in power. I mean in the municipal authorities.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, would you allow me to just ask some

7 clarifying questions on the last answer.

8 MR. STEWART: Of course, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kljuic, you are talking about percentages. You

10 mentioned 44.6 for the Muslims. You also mentioned 17.3 for the Croats.

11 Are these numbers for the whole of the territory of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina?

13 A. Yes. Those are official figures from the census of 1991.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The 60 per cent that voted in favour of an

15 independent Bosnia and Herzegovina, was that 60 per cent of calculated on

16 the basis of the whole of the population of Bosnia and Herzegovina or

17 only of those who had voted?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 64 per cent actually of the entire

19 population of Bosnia and Herzegovina voted for; whereas .2 or .3 per cent

20 of those who voted were against the independence.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Now 64 per cent actually of the entire population.

22 So it's not 64 per cent of those who had voted?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely correct. No, not of

24 those who voted, 64 per cent of the entire population of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina.

Page 11892

1 JUDGE ORIE: It is known that many Serbs did not vote. As far as

2 we have heard until now, the referendum was to a high degree boycotted or

3 Serbs did not participate in the referendum. Do you know how many people

4 -- what was the percentage of the overall population of Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina that participated in the referendum?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have told you, 64 per cent. 64

7 per cent of the citizens participated in the referendum, and out of

8 these, only .2 per cent voted against. .2 per cent of those who turned

9 out.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just have a look again.

11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I ask a question about something

12 that is confusing me terribly in the witness's evidence so I don't wish,

13 with respect, to interrupt the flow.

14 JUDGE ORIE: If you allow me one more question.

15 MR. STEWART: Of course, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that some 39 per cent of the population

17 had -- were Muslims which were entitled to vote if we just limit

18 ourselves to the electorate and for the --

19 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that's precisely my point of

20 confusion. I wonder if I might just ask Your Honour's indulgence.

21 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that you've got similar problems as I have.

22 MR. STEWART: It's this, Your Honour.

23 Q. Mr. Kljuic, you said there were 17 -- this is at line 14 on page

24 12. You said, "There were 17.3 per cent of Croats in the population;

25 however, there was 21 per cent of the Croats eligible to vote." And

Page 11893

1 since 21 is higher than 17.3, that suggests that --

2 JUDGE ORIE: May I just try to check that.

3 Do I understand that the division of the parts of the population,

4 the ethnic groups of the population on the population as a whole was not

5 the same as the division of the ethnic groups if you would just focus on

6 the electorate, that is those who were entitled to vote? That means that

7 on the whole of the population, the percentage of Muslims was higher than

8 the percentage of Muslims that were entitled to vote. That is to say the

9 percentage of Muslims in the electorate.

10 Does that clarify the issue, Mr. Stewart. Because that means

11 that although you may have only 17.3 per cent on the whole of the

12 population, you might have 21 per cent if you just focus on the

13 electorate.

14 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, it was the clarification of that

15 answer which is the way it's expressed doesn't -- does potentially

16 confuse.

17 Q. Mr. Kljuic, may I ask you something just to make sure that I have

18 understood the position correctly. 20 per cent of the electorate were

19 Croats; is that right? Is that what you're saying?

20 A. 20, 21 per cent.

21 Q. Yes. And when you were talking about 39 per cent of Muslims, you

22 were saying that 39 per cent of the electorate were Muslims, that's also

23 what you were saying; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And it follows, therefore, that apart from a possibly relatively

Page 11894

1 insignificant category of others, that the other 40 per cent of the

2 electorate were very predominantly Serbs?

3 A. No, no, please. You have to understand one thing. The number of

4 citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina was 4.400.000 whereas the number of

5 those who were eligible to vote was 3.4 million. So the ethnic group

6 which had a lot of children was not represented in the electorate in the

7 same percentage as it was represented in the overall population

8 structure. Their percentage of the electorate was smaller.

9 What I'm giving you are official, exact figures that you can

10 obtain from the Institute for Statistics. On the other hand, it has not

11 been established -- just give me a moment to finish my answer ...

12 Q. Mr. Kljuic, yes, but my question is -- you've brought in the

13 population as a whole. My question was very specifically confined to the

14 electorate. So that's what I was asking you.

15 You have been saying that 39 per cent of the electorate were

16 Muslims. You confirmed that specifically. That 20, 21 per cent of the

17 electorate were Croats. You confirmed that specifically. Let's take 21

18 because it works out neatly arithmetically, if it was 21 per cent Croats

19 and 39 per cent Muslims, that conveniently makes 60 per cent and what I

20 was putting to you therefore was that apart from a possibly insignificant

21 category of others, that the remaining 40 per cent of the electorate were

22 Serbs; is that correct?

23 A. No way, no way. Please. I am trying to assist you. I am trying

24 to assist you but I cannot do that unless you are willing to hear what I

25 have to say.

Page 11895

1 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few questions for you, Mr. Kljuic. Try to

2 follow me.

3 We have an electorate, 100 per cent of the electorate. 100 per

4 cent means the total number of those who are entitled to vote; yes?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely, yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that Muslims would be 39 per cent of

7 that electorate; you agree?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You also told us that 21 per cent of that electorate

10 were Croats; you agree?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I agree.

12 JUDGE ORIE: I ask you to follow my assumption I ask you to

13 follow my assumption. My assumption is, just for arguments's sake, all

14 Muslims vote for independence, let's just assume that, yes? Do you

15 agree? Well, you don't.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

17 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have to agree, but I just want you to

18 follow this assumption. Let's just take that. My next assumption is

19 that all Croats also vote in favour of independence. I just ask you to

20 follow that assumption. Yes?

21 On the basis of that assumption, we would have 60 per cent of the

22 electorate of the voters who would vote in favour of independence, that

23 is 39 plus 21. You agree that that would be, on the basis of that

24 assumption, a valid conclusion. Do you still follow me?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, Your Honours. It is just

Page 11896

1 the right that belonged to Croats and Muslims, but I would like to ask

2 you: Do you know how many voters actually exercised their right to vote,

3 to turn out at the elections? At the first 1990 elections -- for

4 instance in America, they elected their presidents with only 38 per cent

5 of the electorate.

6 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... referendum. In

7 other words, do you know what percentage casted their votes? You said --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We know that: 64 per cent.

9 JUDGE ORIE: All right. Do you know, since there is some

10 information that Serbs had boycotted, do you know exactly which part of

11 the 64 per cent were Muslims, which part were Croats, which part were

12 Serbs?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nobody knows that exactly. But

14 what is known is that most of the Croats did turn out. With Muslims, the

15 number of those who cast their votes was important but not everybody did.

16 There were even deputies to the parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina who

17 were against independence.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Do we know -- you said, "We do know that most of the

19 Croats did turn out." On the basis of what do we know that?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Based on the organisational work

21 that I did as the president. We have lots of people who are working in

22 Germany and we organise special buses to bring them back to the country

23 to vote. And we know the percentages, municipality by municipality,

24 exact figures of those who turned out to vote. For instance, Grude,

25 where Mate Boban lived, 99 per cent turned out.

Page 11897

1 JUDGE ORIE: I might have a language problem but "turn out,"

2 could anyone explain to me at this moment what this exactly means in this

3 context?

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I would understand it to mean went to

5 vote.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Went to vote.

7 Do I understand that if you say "turn out" that they went to

8 vote, the Croats?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Now, are you saying that most of the Croats and most

11 of the Muslims voted?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: If you have no exact figures, what, on the basis of

14 what you learned, would be the percentage? Above 90 per cent Muslims and

15 Croats?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For Croats, it is certainly over 90

17 per cent. I'm not sure about the Muslims.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Did the Croats, as far as you know, vote in favour

19 of independence?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Did the Muslims vote in favour of independence?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of those who turned out, who

23 cast their votes, voted for independence.

24 JUDGE ORIE: That's what you said 63.8 and 0.2, so that -- well,

25 we restart.

Page 11898

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where we might.

2 JUDGE ORIE: With that electorate of 100, yes.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We have 39 out of those 100 being Muslims; do you

5 agree?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: We have 21 being Croats.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's now make an assumption that at least 90 per

10 cent, you said for the Croats, it was higher, for the Muslims, you do not

11 know for sure. If I would make the assumption that 90 per cent of

12 Muslims and Croats entitled to vote did vote, would that be a fair

13 assumption? Certainly not less.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure about the Muslims.

15 I'm not sure that over 90 per cent of them voted, but you could assume

16 that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any data on what percentage of the

18 Muslims who were entitled to vote actually did vote?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't. There was a large

20 percentage of Muslims, 39 per cent of those who had the right to vote.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's continue on the basis of the 90 per cent

22 assumption. We then have 60 Muslim Croat voters of which 90 per cent

23 comes and votes which means that 54 of them came to vote.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you said 64 per cent voted in favour of

Page 11899












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Page 11900

1 independence; yes?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That means that you need 10 more voters from other

4 groups - Serbs, Yugoslavs, whatever - to vote in favour of independence.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They wanted to vote. Nobody had to

6 vote.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not talking on whether they had to vote. You'd

8 need another 10 out of 100 voters to come to that result. They would be

9 Serbs and others. What percentage of the electorate was Serb?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A figure very similar to the

11 Croats, 31 per cent of the population and 32 per cent of the electorate

12 because they had less children, fewer children, just like the Croats.

13 JUDGE ORIE: That means that those remaining would have to add 10

14 votes out of 100 to get to that result.

15 Mr. Stewart, I'm just asking you whether you follow my analysis

16 at this moment.

17 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour, it's very clear.

18 JUDGE ORIE: And whether you agree with that.

19 MR. STEWART: I agree with the arithmetic, Your Honour, based on

20 the assumptions and I understand entirely the assumptions, yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: So the weak spot is that we are working on the basis

22 of assumptions rather than on the basis of established facts. So unless

23 we would have details about that, on this assumption, it would, with the

24 uncertainty what would be the others and what would be the Serbs because

25 that's not clear. But if you would also assume that those 10 votes came

Page 11901

1 in majority from Serbs -- I'm not saying it is so; it could well be

2 others that they were over-represented under these 10 voters. But if

3 not, then approximately one-third of the Serb electorate would have been

4 in favour of the independence, at least voted in favour of independence.

5 So we have a few weak spots, one of them being that we do not

6 know exactly what percentage came to vote, which is a vital piece of

7 information. Because if, overall, it would have been not 90 per cent but

8 98 per cent, then of course the votes needed by non-Croats, non-Muslims

9 would be considerably less, that would be 2 out of 100, which makes

10 approximately 10 per cent of the Serb or others electorate.

11 I mean it's relatively simple to make the calculations and it's

12 also important to establish how vital the information is on how many

13 Muslims came to vote, how many Croats came to vote because we would then

14 know what you would still need in favour of independence votes to come to

15 the result of 64 per cent.

16 If this is commonly accepted, then the remaining issue is whether

17 we have these data available, yes or no, whether this witness could

18 provide them, or they could be provided by any other source so that we

19 can verify the validity of what the witness told us.

20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I would -- thank you very much for

21 that, Your Honour, and as I say, we -- we, I'm royal we or something this

22 morning -- understand Your Honour's analysis based on those assumptions.

23 We do sometimes say in English if we had some fish we could have some

24 fish and chips if we had some chips. So you do really have to explore

25 the assumptions. But Your Honour, I wouldn't propose to explore it

Page 11902

1 further with this witness. This information must be available more

2 conveniently and readily and accurately, with respect, from somewhere

3 else.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But at least the issue is clear now.

5 MR. STEWART: That's helpful, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour -- as sometimes happen when we have a

8 late start, was Your Honour proposing to just take the first break at the

9 normal time and then proceed according to the normal timetable?

10 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact we have it a bit later

11 so to split up a in more equal parts but if you prefer to have a break

12 now ...

13 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, if it's not terribly

14 inconvenient to the Trial Chamber and everybody else because I have made

15 arrangements with various members of my team to meet them and give

16 instructions and so on. So it would be a great help to me Your Honour

17 and since we have just finished this chapter -- I can go on of course for

18 a few minutes.

19 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then adjourn until five minutes to 11.00.

20 MR. STEWART: I'm very much obliged for that, Your Honour. Thank

21 you.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Two practical matters. The Chamber will invite the

25 witness to send any notes on meetings he still would have in Sarajevo. I

Page 11903

1 add to that immediately that this should not give rise to any

2 expectations as to the importance, relevance, et cetera. Further written

3 submissions of course can be filed at a later stage and we'll then see

4 what the material is, how important it is, and see what to do with that.

5 But at this moment, the Chamber will invite the witness to provide that

6 material so that the Defence at least has an opportunity to inspect that

7 material.

8 Second question, very practical one, we have an opportunity to

9 move on Friday the 22nd of April from the afternoon session to the

10 morning session which is often considered as a precious thing, the last

11 day of the week moving from the afternoon to the morning. The Judges

12 have no problems. I'd like to hear from the parties if there is any

13 problem.

14 MR. HARMON: We would have no problem, Your Honour.

15 MR. STEWART: Neither do we, Your Honour, thank you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then unless there would be problems in terms of

17 interpreter teams, et cetera, et cetera, the Chamber will ask the

18 registry to see whether we could move from the afternoon to the morning

19 session on the 22nd of April.

20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, can I say partly my non-objection was

21 because I didn't even know we were in the afternoon in the first place

22 anyway. Can I take it that -- are we -- if Your Honour can just very

23 helpfully tell me or somebody, are we in the afternoon then for the other

24 days next week?

25 JUDGE ORIE: That week we are scheduled Monday the 18th of April

Page 11904

1 in the morning; Tuesday 19th, Wednesday 20, and Thursday 21 in the

2 afternoon.

3 MR. STEWART: Yes, that's very helpful. Thank you, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Kljuic

5 into the courtroom.

6 [The witness entered court]

7 Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

8 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Mr. Kljuic, at page 6.106 of the transcript on the 27th of

10 September last year, you said, and it's -- you've got a number of

11 references to this word. You were asked by Mr. Harmon:

12 "Q. Mr. Kljuic, did you have an opportunity to observe Mr.

13 Krajisnik in his relations with people who were not -- who were Serbs but

14 were not SDS members. Can you describe his views and attitude towards

15 those people."

16 "A. He, just as Karadzic, condemned those people as traitors of

17 Serbdom."

18 Mr. Kljuic, the view of Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik was this,

19 wasn't it, that the SDA and the HDZ were intent upon destruction of

20 Yugoslavia in a way which Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik and all their

21 colleagues regarded as detrimental to the interests of Serbs in Bosnia.

22 A. I disagree.

23 Q. Disagree that that was the view?

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

25 MR. STEWART: Sorry, I was in the wrong place.

Page 11905

1 Q. You disagree that that was the view of, for example, Dr.

2 Karadzic? I just want to know if you disagree about the view or you

3 disagree about the fact, Mr. Kljuic.

4 A. I disagree with the notion of non-Serbs having been intent upon

5 destroying Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia was destroyed by Serbs themselves by

6 having pursued non-democratic methods and failed to respect the 1974

7 Constitution.

8 Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik advocated that very same Serb

9 policy which provoked the reactions of non-Serb ethnicities.

10 Q. Just pause for a moment.

11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm quite content not to pursue the

12 resolution of this distinction but I ...

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it's even totally useless.

14 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour --

15 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't put any question to the witness in this

16 respect, so if you would move on to your next subject.

17 MR. STEWART: I will, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: You would find no opposition from the Chamber.

19 MR. STEWART: I'm very much obliged, Your Honour.

20 Q. I just put it this way, the word "traitors," Mr. Kljuic, it's a

21 strong, but commonly used word in the rough-and-tumble of politics by

22 party members, representatives, about people who take different view on

23 important issues, isn't it?

24 A. Yes. But in the history of the Serbian politics, when they lost

25 the battle at Kosovo Polje, then Brankovic used the term. This term has

Page 11906

1 been widely used in the Balkans, especially with the Serbs.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, this is a similar matter. If someone

3 uses the word "traitor" of course it's very much depended on the context

4 how defective -- I mean the Chamber is in a position to at least give

5 some meaning and see the relativity which doesn't mean that it doesn't

6 say anything at all, but to see the relativity of the use of the word

7 "traitor."

8 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I wasn't proposing to pursue

9 this point beyond that simple question to the witness anyway. But thank

10 you for that helpful remark, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Kljuic, the next page of the same transcript, page 6.107, you

12 refer to a Mr. Simovic. You said -- it starts at line 3, "For instance,

13 after the walkout of the SDS in the beginning of the aggression," and

14 you're talking about the walkout October 1991, aren't you there?

15 A. One can see here the context of the word "aggression" in -- the

16 aggression on Croatia started in 1991 and on Bosnia in 1992 so that if we

17 are talking about Bosnia here, this isn't the proper context, the proper

18 date.

19 Q. Mr. Kljuic, it's your evidence. If you don't know -- if you

20 can't work out without a wider context, then say so, but it was the

21 walkout. I was just asking you to confirm that if you can't, you can't,

22 that the walkout that you're referring to was the walkout from the

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly in October 1991; is that right?

24 A. Can you give me the entire sentence please?

25 Q. I'm just going to move on, Mr. Kljuic, and withdraw that

Page 11907

1 particular question.

2 Mr. Simovic, you say, "He stayed in Sarajevo after the war

3 started." He was, is this right, he was a member of the Constitutional

4 Court, and he is now a Republika Srpska member, as it were, of the Bosnia

5 and Herzegovina Constitutional Court. That's right, isn't it?

6 A. At the time of the start of the aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina

7 when he remained in Sarajevo, he was Deputy Prime Minister of the

8 republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Some three to four months after the

9 start of the aggression, he also left Sarajevo.

10 At a later stage, he held certain positions in the Republika

11 Srpska, whether he was a member of the Constitutional Court or a

12 professor on the faculty. And today he's a member of the Constitutional

13 Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. Did he subsequently leave Sarajevo?

15 A. Yes. As I've said, he was there in the beginning of the

16 aggression as Deputy Prime Minister but after a while, perhaps some

17 three, four, five months later, he left.

18 Q. Do you know why he left?

19 A. I don't know.

20 Q. Do you know of or did you know at the time an academic called Mr.

21 Ekmecic?

22 A. Of course I do.

23 Q. Did he say in Sarajevo and was he arrested by Muslim Croat

24 forces?

25 A. Yes, he was. He remained in Sarajevo for a while. He was

Page 11908

1 arrested. I don't know about that but I do know that he was being

2 bothered, that the government tried to protect him and that he later on

3 went to Belgrade.

4 Q. Do you know that he was maltreated in prison?

5 A. I don't know but I can assume that he was, yes.

6 Q. The same applied to Mr. Slavko Leovac?

7 A. You mean Leovac. I knew Professor Leovac as well. I believe he

8 shared the same fate of Ekmecic.

9 Q. And the same applied to Mr. Svetozar Koljevic and -- if it is Mr.

10 Borisa Starovic?

11 A. I don't think the same applies to the two of them. Svetozar

12 Koljevic, I knew him very well and I even met him in the street during

13 the war once, whereas Borisa Starovic was my school meat from high

14 school.

15 Q. Did you know Professor Najdanovic?

16 A. Unfortunately, I did not know Dr. Najdanovic.

17 Q. Do you know of him?

18 A. Yes, and I heard that he had been killed, kidnapped or he

19 otherwise that he went missing and his fate is still unknown today.

20 Q. But all of the people I've mentioned were prominent Serbs in

21 Sarajevo at the time the conflict began, weren't they?

22 A. Yes. We can agree that most of them were distinguished.

23 Q. And a high proportion of prominent Serbs in Sarajevo were

24 arrested, imprisoned and maltreated when the conflict broke out, weren't

25 they?

Page 11909

1 A. That chaos reigned in the town, that much is true. Some of those

2 were pronounced enemies of the idea of Bosnia-Herzegovina and I here

3 refer to Professor Ekmecic and Borisa Leovac, and there were some groups

4 that went out of hand and wreaked havoc without having been directed to

5 do so by the government. But most importantly, all the citizens in

6 Sarajevo were threatened, endangered at the time, because they had no

7 electricity, food, and so on.

8 Q. Mr. Kljuic, I want to turn to the intercept, please, which was

9 under consideration at page 6.149 of the transcript on the 27th of

10 September last year, and it was tab 31472. It's now an exhibit.

11 JUDGE ORIE: That's Prosecution Exhibit 292, KID number 31472.

12 Please proceed.

13 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if the witness is going to be asked

14 questions about the particular intercept, could he be provided of a copy

15 of the intercept.

16 JUDGE ORIE: It depends what questions will be put to him. If he

17 has to have a closer look at it, I expect Mr. Stewart to present it to

18 the witness.

19 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, indeed, I tend whenever it's fair to the

20 witness and would ultimately be guided by the Trial Chamber on that.

21 Q. Mr. Kljuic, this -- I don't know how well you recall this, this

22 is a transcript of a telephone conversation between Mr. Momcilo Mandic

23 and Mr. Krajisnik that took place on the 26th of June, 1992, according to

24 this record.

25 Just to refresh your memory, at page 6.158 of the transcript on

Page 11910












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Page 11911

1 the 27th of September, Mr. Harmon asked you when the intercepts had been

2 played, Mr. Kljuic, this is page 6.158, "Mr. Kljuic, I played this

3 intercept for you in the context of your previous testimony that dealt

4 with the attitudes of Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik and other attitudes

5 towards non-Serbs who did not subscribe to the SDS agenda. Can I have

6 your comments on observations in respect of this intercept."

7 Your answer was: "A. We see in this conversation the drastic

8 qualifications they give to people who are not towing the line. Although

9 there is an error in the identification of Filip Vukovic. It's true he

10 is a communist but he's not a Serb. He happened to be a Croat.

11 "We see from this that they were sending women and children to us

12 which is another result of ethnic cleansing. But if you wish, we can

13 also see from this that Mr. Krajisnik was involved in many problems

14 beginning with exchanges with the Muslims because this person,

15 Karamehmedovic had been sent to Sarajevo, and in exchange some people

16 were demanded from Sarajevo."

17 Mr. Kljuic, do you know who Mr. Karamehmedovic was?

18 A. I don't.

19 Q. So if I suggest to you that he was a former colleague of Mr.

20 Krajisnik's who had been arrested by the VRS, you know nothing that would

21 contradict that suggestion?

22 A. No, I wouldn't.

23 Q. So if you were told that this was a personal appeal to Mr.

24 Krajisnik to become involved in obtaining the release of one of his

25 former colleagues, again, you know nothing to contradict that assertion.

Page 11912

1 A. I don't except perhaps for the fact that he would use his offices

2 for a friend to be released but not for someone who was not a friend.

3 MR. STEWART: I wonder, Your Honour, perhaps the witness should

4 see the copy of the transcript.

5 Q. Do you see the first reference that you can find in this document

6 to Mr. Karamehmedovic? Do you see that? The first time his name is

7 mentioned, can you find that?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, in the transcript it's at page 6.151

10 at line 22.

11 Q. Then about ten lines on from that, there's a reference to 400

12 prisoners. Do you see that?

13 A. I see where Karamehmedovic is mentioned.

14 Q. Yes, I thought you had that, then. If you go on about 10 or 12

15 lines it should be, you see a reference -- do you see:

16 "Mandic Momcilo: I've got 400."

17 Do you see that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then Mr. Krajisnik says, "And who is criticising?"

20 Mr. Mandic says, "This Filip Vukovic, this member of the youth

21 organisation, Serb, he says clean it, but for them they are..."

22 And then it goes on a few lines.

23 Mr. Krajisnik says, "What does he want?"

24 Mr. Mandic: "He is president of the exchange commission. Their

25 commission.

Page 11913

1 "Yes.

2 "And what is it that he wants?

3 "War prisoners. No, they are ex for them. They are hardly

4 interested in people. They are interested in ammunition and meat and now

5 we let those women and children to go to Vrbanja... to go to their own

6 people. He said that's ethnic cleansing what we're doing..."

7 Mr. Kljuic, my first question is whether you know any more about

8 this particular matter about women and children going to Vrbanja than

9 what we can read here in this transcript.

10 A. Of all of the parts of the town of Sarajevo, Grbavica was in the

11 most difficult situation because it was cut off from the rest of the town

12 as bridges were connecting it to them. It was a neighbourhood that was

13 very close to the surrounding mountains and was placed under Serb control

14 very early on with the help of the JNA. There were examples of families

15 divided between Grbavica and Sarajevo and many tried to cross over to

16 town proper as soon as possible.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you had any specific

18 knowledge of this event, that is women and children sent to Vrbanja. You

19 are a he not asked about what the context of this might have been but

20 whether you have any specific knowledge of this event.

21 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vrbanja is a bridge that separated

23 the warring parties. It was at this bridge that exchanges were

24 conducted. I don't know the details but I know that many people from

25 Sarajevo went over to the Serb-controlled territory across Vrbanja and

Page 11914

1 from Serb-controlled territory crossed over to the town proper; and that

2 in addition to the arrangements made by individual persons, there were

3 also commissions that engaged in the exchange of prisoners and most often

4 of common citizens. Therefore, they were not exchanging troops but

5 citizens.


7 Q. Mr. Kljuic, can we take it that whatever you just said, you don't

8 know anything about this particular matter that is referred to here the

9 women and children going to Vrbanja?

10 A. I don't know anything about these women, about Karamehmedovic. I

11 don't know anything specific about it.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, on the basis of the text of the

13 telephone intercept, one could even wonder whether this was one specific

14 event or that it was a development. "Now we let these women and

15 children" could also be a specific group or it could also be a practice

16 that was developed or had developed.

17 Please proceed.

18 MR. STEWART: I note and understand Your Honour's comment.

19 Q. You said in your evidence and I don't have the specific reference

20 to this, Mr. Kljuic, but I doubt that you will dispute it, that Croats

21 were not supporting Bosnia remaining part of Yugoslavia because that

22 would mean remaining part of Greater Serbia. That's -- that accurately

23 represents your view, doesn't it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. What was the concern of Croats in remaining part of Greater

Page 11915

1 Serbia?

2 A. Well, they had a second-rate position in the former Yugoslavia,

3 both in the Yugoslavia ruled by the Karadjordjevic dynasty and in the

4 Yugoslav version. In the Greater Serbia, they would have the position of

5 Croats in today's Vojvodina who are not even entitled to newspapers or

6 radio in their own language.

7 Q. And the concern of the Bosnian Serbs was to be in a minority in

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina, wasn't it?

9 A. First of all, that is not true. Nobody would have been a

10 minority. On the contrary, they would be equal. We Croats could

11 arguably be a minority. I personally authored a document which could

12 have secured the constitutional rights of all ethnic communities. And

13 you have among the documentation I supplied my letter to President

14 Tudjman --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kljuic, let me stop you for one second.

16 Mr. Stewart, we heard so much evidence on the issue of who would

17 be a minority in what circumstances and, of course, what a minority is

18 differs from the point of view one is taking, whether that would be

19 minority in respect of a absolute majority of others or whether that

20 would be a minority in respect of a coalition of others, none of them

21 having an absolute majority. To have this explained again by the witness

22 that the Bosnian Serbs would not be a minority, I could spell out

23 whatever could be said about that without even having to look at my

24 papers.

25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I don't wish it to be explained, Your

Page 11916

1 Honour. That was not what I was looking for. Some of these points are

2 single-question points. If the witness simply answers my question, I

3 will move on as I would be very happy to do on that particular point.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.

5 MR. STEWART: Thank you.

6 Q. Mr. Kljuic, I want to hand you, please, one of the items that you

7 have supplied previously to the Trial Chamber, not the ones that arrived

8 yesterday. It's item 14 --

9 JUDGE ORIE: That's D40. And Madam Registrar is still waiting to

10 receive a copy of it.

11 MR. HARMON: We can supply a copy, Your Honour, if necessary.


13 MR. STEWART: That's the one we looked at yesterday.

14 Q. I just want to ask you, towards the end of this account that you

15 give of the meeting in question in September 1991, you said that, "two

16 days" -- it's about four paragraphs from the end.

17 "Two days after these failed negotiations, I went to see Tudjman

18 in Zagreb. When we exchanged information about the situation, I told him

19 about the talks with SDS leaders. He was very glad to hear that I'd held

20 a meeting on the level of HDZ and SDS leadership. When I told him about

21 the outcome of the talks, he became lost in thought" and so on.

22 Mr. Kljuic, did you make notes either during the meeting with Mr.

23 Tudjman or -- notes of this meeting either during the meeting or at some

24 point afterwards?

25 A. I never took notes from my own discussions with President

Page 11917

1 Tudjman. But a huge number of those discussions was audiotaped and were

2 published two months ago in two volumes published by the Split newspaper

3 Feral. A detailed record was given on all the views of President Tudjman

4 on Bosnia and his discussions with the representatives of Croats and

5 others.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Kljuic, just to make it clear, during that

7 meeting with Mr. Tudjman, you made no notes.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We see that you've written down in this document.

10 Was that the first time that you did write down what was said during that

11 meeting or were there any previous writings?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is the only thing I have.

13 The whole meeting was initiated pursuant to the order of Mr. Tudjman.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's a clear answer. You have no further

15 notes.

16 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.


18 Q. And when you said a moment ago - excuse me - "That a huge number

19 of these discussions was audiotaped," these discussions, are you

20 including or meaning your own meeting just referred to with Mr. Tudjman?

21 A. Since I received these books very recently and I'm having a hard

22 time reading them. I haven't yet established whether that particular

23 detail is on record in that book, but some meetings that took place

24 previously are included and I believe the transcripts are given in

25 chronological order.

Page 11918

1 Q. I'm just trying to get clear, Mr. Kljuic, what you're talking

2 about. Because you refer to "these discussions" in very wide terms as

3 having been audiotaped and published by Feral Tribune, I think it's

4 called, isn't it. What discussions, what range of discussions, what type

5 of discussions is covered by these audiotape transcripts, presumably

6 published by Feral Tribune?

7 A. It is a huge volume including several hundred discussions that

8 took place on a variety of occasions. Most of them have to do with

9 Bosnian Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina, one topic; Bosnian Croats and

10 Yugoslavia being another topic. And I, as Croat number one had

11 discussions, Boban, Tudjman, Susak and other conversations. I found

12 another conversations where I clashed with Zagreb concerning their policy

13 towards Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 Q. So your conversation or conversations with Mr. Tudjman were

15 included in these published discussions, were they?

16 A. Yes. Most of them seemed to be included. I don't know for sure,

17 it's a huge volume, I have to study it yet. But it is a very important

18 material from which you can see the positions taken by certain

19 individuals at that time.

20 Q. What's it called? It's a book, is it, published by Feral

21 Tribune?

22 A. Yes, it is. It's called "The Transcripts." About the division

23 of Bosnia. Your own person in Sarajevo can obtain it in Sarajevo and

24 sent it to you. It's very simple. It consists of two volumes.

25 Q. I'm sure I can when I find out who he or she is, Mr. Kljuic.

Page 11919

1 I would like you to have item 15.

2 MR. STEWART: I have a clean copy myself, Your Honour. Item 15

3 of the first batch of items that was supplied by Mr. Kljuic to the Trial

4 Chamber.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you'd like to have number 15 assigned

6 a D number as well.

7 MR. STEWART: I would indeed, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: That would be D41, I take it, Madam Registrar. Yes,

9 it's confirmed by Madam Registrar.

10 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Now, this is -- apart from the number in the corner and 15 but

12 that doesn't perhaps matter. This is a typed document and this is

13 something that you have written; is that right, Mr. Kljuic?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And can you say when you wrote it?

16 A. I wrote it partly at the time when it was happening and later, I

17 compiled it all in a single piece of writing that was finalised in the

18 form in which it will be published in a book.

19 Q. Now, it relates largely to what is called the historic agreement,

20 doesn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you've just, in a nutshell, given your summary of what the

23 historic agreement was.

24 A. You see the changes of the constitutional order of Bosnia and

25 Herzegovina, the transition from a totalitarian to a democratic system

Page 11920

1 were supposed to take place on two levels. One had to do with the issue

2 of how to organise the Yugoslav community, and the second had to deal

3 with the structuring of Bosnia and Herzegovina. All of this was supposed

4 to be done within the institutions of the system.

5 However, it didn't work out that way due to the extreme demands

6 of Slobodan Milosevic and the non-observance of the 1974 Constitution

7 including the principle of equality among nations. But let us set aside

8 the problems on the level of Yugoslavia. Let us just look at the problem

9 in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 Instead of insisting the discussions take place in the parliament

11 of Bosnia and Herzegovina with harmonisation of views on what the future

12 should be, a trick was used so that Muslims, nowadays Bosniaks, be

13 excluded from the institutions of the system and that a separate

14 agreement be made between Croats and Serbs -- between Serbs and Muslims

15 putting Croats before a fait accompli. I witnessed this because Mr.

16 Koljevic's office was next to mine in the building of the Presidency.

17 And I warned them that this bilateral agreement between Serbs and Muslims

18 would mean an end to Bosnia and Herzegovina as we knew it. I even waited

19 for them on one occasion when they were coming out of an office and I

20 told them, "Gentlemen, when you agree, you have to come to see me."

21 The principal political force of Bosnian Muslims was the SDA

22 party. It was not involved. Instead, a small, a very small Bosnian

23 Muslim party was involved in this. Their leaders, their representatives

24 went to Belgrade and tried to elicit the support of Muslims by saying

25 that if the two largest nations in Bosnia come to an agreement, the war

Page 11921












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 11922

1 could be avoided. However, this agreement was never reached. It fell

2 through, and this failure can be blamed on a lot of people. Because if

3 that agreement had become reality, then Yugoslavia would have fallen

4 apart in quite a different way.

5 Q. You say in this document, it's the end of the first paragraph, --

6 well, it's about five lines from the end. You say, "Alija Izetbegovic

7 and I never became close friends partly because we are completely

8 different from each other and perhaps even more importantly, because at

9 that time, he already had plans that were different from mine."

10 "At that time," what date would you put on "at that time"?

11 A. That was year 1991. You see, the problem of Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina --

13 Q. What part of 1991?

14 A. The second half, autumn 1991.

15 Q. And you say, "Izetbegovic" -- "I had no choice, however.

16 Izetbegovic supported BH, Bosnia Herzegovina, or at least said so and

17 Karadzic openly threatened the sovereignty of Bosnia and Herzegovina."

18 Now, first of all, "Mr. Izetbegovic supported Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina." Do you mean by that supported sovereignty of Bosnia and

20 Herzegovina?

21 A. Yes, but the problem of Bosnia and Herzegovina was entirely

22 different. I personally would have asked for a civic state. But in

23 Bosnia and Herzegovina, you cannot underestimate the national aspect.

24 Q. Mr. Kljuic, then Mr. Izetbegovic, according to you, "or at least

25 said so." So you at the time, did you, had, at the very least, very

Page 11923

1 severe reservations about whether Mr. Izetbegovic meant what he was

2 saying?

3 A. No, I did not have reservations. I even had no prospects.

4 Karadzic was openly against an independent Bosnia and Herzegovina and

5 Izetbegovic wanted it. However in this correlation and the religious,

6 the position wasn't clear. To date, we have not found a solution for

7 Bosnia in which it would be a civic state with adequate protection for

8 religious freedoms. It is very difficult in Bosnia because of the

9 internal relationships, traditions, and the complicated nature of life.

10 However, Izetbegovic was indeed in favour of Bosnia and that was crucial.

11 Q. You talk, and in the English, it's in the middle of the second

12 page, just to pick up a reference, do you see a reference in -- it's your

13 document. Do you see a reference in this document, perhaps about a third

14 of the way through to "600.000 Muslims from Turkey ..."? Do you see that

15 reference 600.000?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Yes. Well following on from that, that's just a reference point.

18 The next paragraph we get that paragraph that I think may be from

19 somewhere else we considered yesterday about your superiority and Mr.

20 Karadzic from the Dermitor mountains and then you record, "He won't do

21 anything if you and your Serbs support Bosnia and Herzegovina, I said."

22 Now, that is you talking to Dr. Karadzic, is it?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And then the next bit, "How come you and I disagree when our

25 bosses have the same position on Bosnia and Herzegovina?" Is that --

Page 11924

1 according to you, is that Dr. Karadzic talking, is it, or you?

2 A. Dr. Karadzic.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, that's so self-evident in the context

4 of this conversation that I really -- if the answer in the context of a

5 conversation is "Remember Radovan, I have no political boss," then of

6 course the previous one could be words spoken by Karadzic. It's ...

7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I accept that. When I was reading

8 through a moment ago, I had actually felt it was not sufficiently

9 self-evident but I now see that it was. My apologies, Your Honour. I

10 now see that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


13 Q. And he was -- those are his exact words, are they, as far as you

14 recall?

15 A. You mean Dr. Karadzic's words?

16 Q. Yes.

17 A. Yes, they are.

18 Q. And first noted by you how long after the conversation?

19 A. Well, I cannot tell you that. You know why? Because when this

20 whole story about historic agreements started, then I wrote this sentence

21 by sentence, excerpt by excerpt, then they went to Belgrade to sign

22 something and didn't sign it and then it was all wrapped up. But if you

23 really want to know, I can tell you that this is Karadzic's statement.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kljuic, the question was: How long after the

25 conversation you noted it down. You said, "Well, I cannot tell you

Page 11925

1 that." That's an answer to the question. The next question might have

2 been whether you would have a time frame but that's just what Mr. Stewart

3 asked you.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.


6 Q. Then you go back to, in this record, whatever it is, you go back

7 to the conversation you had with Izetbegovic and you say, "An offer had

8 allegedly been made to him for the Muslims to remain in Yugoslavia and he

9 would then become the president of the Assembly in Yugoslavia."

10 Then it is you saying, "It's true, you could be the president of

11 the Assembly; however, it would not be the Assembly of Yugoslavia but

12 that of Serbia."

13 "So you're saying that they made you an offer for your people to

14 be --" and there's a question mark in English, it's the "second largest

15 in Yugoslavia."

16 Is that what your note says in the original?

17 A. Yes. Yes. That was the conversation.

18 Q. And it goes on: "And who is the second largest people in Serbia

19 today? The ethnic Albanians. There, they're offering you the same

20 position as the ethnic Albanians now have, I said."

21 Now, where you said "It would not be the Assembly of Yugoslavia

22 but that of Serbia," what precisely were you meaning there?

23 A. Well, it is clear that thereby, Muslims would have remained in a

24 rump Yugoslavia in which Serbs would have an absolute majority and

25 Muslims would indeed be the people number two in that state, that they

Page 11926

1 would not have the parliamentary power to have any decision they wanted

2 actually voted for.

3 Q. And then you say that Mr. Izetbegovic "... ended the conversation

4 by saying quietly, as if to himself, 'No it's not going to happen.'"

5 Was that said so that -- in a way that Mr. Izetbegovic would have

6 known that you heard what he said?

7 A. Correct, and he sort of waved his hand.

8 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, I have no further questions.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

10 Mr. Harmon.

11 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions, Your Honour. Thank

12 you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I might have a few. I'm afraid that I'm badly

14 organised because I ...

15 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

16 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for being badly organised because the

17 underlying material I would like to confront the witness with is not in

18 my binder here at this moment.

19 I suggest that we take a break now, that I have one or two or

20 three questions for you, Mr. Kljuic, and that might be the end of your

21 examination. In order not to waste any further time, I'd like to have a

22 break now for 20 minutes so we'll continue at 25 minutes past 12.00 and

23 the parties should then prepare for the next witness to be called after

24 that.

25 --- Recess taken at 12.04 p.m.

Page 11927

1 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kljuic, I've got a few questions for you. They

3 are related to some intercepts we heard.

4 Questioned by the Court:

5 JUDGE ORIE: The first and very simple question: Do you know who

6 Mr. Milinkovic.

7 A. I don't know.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Short question, short answer. Thank you for that.

9 Then we heard an intercept, a conversation between Jovan Tintor

10 and Mr. Krajisnik of the 4th of April 1992. I'm going to read a small

11 portion of that conversation to you.

12 Mr. Tintor says: "Look, I called you this morning to... to

13 check about this thing, these people from Slavonski Brod have been

14 calling me... fuck, military."

15 Mr. Krajisnik then says, "Look, Simovic and Joko have gone there.

16 I called down there. The SDS and HDZ representatives, they will receive

17 them. Go there and try to calm the situation down. I know that this

18 vice-president of theirs from the HDZ, what was his name?"

19 Mr. Tintor says: "Um-um --"

20 Mr. Krajisnik says: "He will, because there seems to be a third

21 party that's trying to mess this up and it doesn't suit neither Muslim,

22 neither Croats, nor Serbs that there is chaos there."

23 This is a conversation about events that happened in Slavonski

24 Brod close to the 4th of April, 1992. Do you have any personal knowledge

25 of what happened exactly in Slavonski Brod?

Page 11928

1 A. I have to tell you that the town of Slavonski Brod is in the

2 Republic of Croatia. Perhaps this has to do with Bosanski Brod which is

3 in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then know anything that happened in

5 Bosanski Brod at that very moment?

6 A. The situation in Bosanski Brod was very difficult because a large

7 number of civilians was fleeing to Croatia where, at that time, peace

8 already prevailed. Whether the Yugoslav Peoples' Army wanted to control

9 the bridge or not, I cannot tell you. But during the war in Croatia,

10 this bridge was, in part, made unpassable.

11 This is the route that is most frequently used between Slovenia

12 and Croatia on the one hand, and the southern part of what was formerly

13 Yugoslavia. I don't know the details, but if this has to do with

14 Posavina and the vice-president of HDZ, that was Niko Stanic.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was that bridge impassable already on the 4th

16 of April, 1992?

17 A. Tanks and trucks and cars could not cross over it, but I believe

18 that pedestrians could.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.

20 Then finally, I'd like to take you back to your testimony of the

21 29th of September, page 6.306. You were asked about a telephone

22 conversation between Mr. Stojic and Mr. -- no, no, I'm making a mistake.

23 At that time, it was Mr. Kvesic and Mr. Mandic speaking to each other.

24 I'll just read a small part of that.

25 A. Yes, if I may, Mr. Kvesic.

Page 11929

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Branko Kvesic.

2 A. Branko Kvesic, Momo Mandic, Bruno Stojic and I don't know what

3 Stanisic's first name is. But that was the conversation, the four of

4 them. Mico Stanisic.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well I read just one part of a conversation

6 between Kvesic and Mandic on the 5th of May, 1992.

7 Mr. Kvesic said, "So you are right there in Pale, are you?"

8 Mandic: "Well, we are not. We came down to the city."

9 Kvesic: "Yes. Yes."

10 Mandic: "We came down and cleaned Grbavica..."

11 Kvesic: "Is that so?"

12 Mandic: There we hold Ilidza, Dobrinja, and Nedzarici, all the

13 way to student campus and so on."

14 You were asked questions about this telephone conversation on the

15 29th of September, and part of your answer, page 6.306 was after you --

16 you said the following:

17 "And already then Mandic is reporting and saying that Grbavica is

18 being cleared and the greater crime was committed at Grbavica which was

19 otherwise a multi-ethnic settlement."

20 Then you summarized that. You said something about taking over

21 the police school in Vrace, and then you continue:

22 "It's densely populated area and when he says -- when Momo Mandic

23 says that they have cleaned Grbavica, that means that they have -- that

24 they took away many people. Some they killed. Some went in for exchange

25 so that Grbavica already at that period of time, when this conversation

Page 11930

1 took place in May, actually it had already been in ethnically cleaned,

2 cleansed. And he is bragging to Kvesic about this."

3 That was your answer.

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any knowledge of cleaning or cleansing

6 of Grbavica?

7 A. Of course I do. I visited a lady immediately after the

8 liberation of Grbavica. The lady was a proofreader in the editing house,

9 newspaper house of Oslobodjenje where I first started working as a

10 journalist. Her name is Maja Fulanovic. At that point, I saw a woman

11 who had spent four years in a room, one of the few Catholics to have

12 survived in Grbavica thanks to the assistance of her neighbour Serbs.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you. First of all, if you say "After

14 the liberation of Grbavica," you may be aware that what is a liberation

15 and what is an aggression is looked at from different points of view.

16 Do I understand by the liberation that you mean when Grbavica was

17 not under Serb control anymore?

18 A. Yes, I'm speaking from my point of view.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you give that a date?

20 A. That was immediately after the reintegration which began in early

21 1996. I can't tell you the exact date. But I know for a fact about this

22 and I have a witness who went with me. He was a well-known --

23 JUDGE ORIE: So your answer is that was the date is early 1996.

24 Now, you started telling us -- what I'd like to know is whether you have

25 any personal knowledge, not reconstruction after a couple of years, but

Page 11931

1 what did you see or hear at the time you said Grbavica was cleaned or

2 cleansed.

3 A. Of course I do not have firsthand knowledge because I wasn't

4 there. But many people who had fled over from there came to see me.

5 Like for instance the academician Ciglar, a first-rate intellectual, also

6 a Croat, who had survived those very difficult circumstances and once

7 Grbavica was liberated, he came over to see me and thank me. There are

8 many other people who were either exchanged or managed to flee from

9 there, told me about what the situation was like in Grbavica.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell me what exactly they told you, those

11 who were exchanged, one of the categories.

12 A. Since I was interested in knowing how some of the people fared in

13 Grbavica, I had many friends there, I was told that the poet Jakov

14 Jurisic had been killed, that many people had been killed. There were

15 also different cases when someone from Belgrade or Serbia went over there

16 and fetched people to save them. I've also heard stories like that.

17 There is a lot of written material as well produced by

18 eyewitnesses who wanted to portray the situation as it was in Grbavica at

19 the time.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Those exchanged, were they kept in detention before

21 they were exchanged? Did they tell you about that?

22 A. Some of them were kept in detention, others weren't. Others were

23 in hiding in different homes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Were they civilians?

25 A. All of them were. There were no military formations, either

Page 11932












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 11933

1 those of the military or of the Territorial Defence in Grbavica.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then you said that people were killed, that

3 you were told that people were killed. Did they tell you how they were

4 killed?

5 A. They did not, I did not learn any such information; however, as

6 some of the bodies were exhumed from graves one could learn that most of

7 them were killed as a result of an injury by a blunt object or as a

8 result of a gunshot.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Which leaves it still open that they were

10 intentionally killed or that they were hit by a bullet although not being

11 specifically targeted.

12 A. Yes, far from anything specific. And I cannot claim with any

13 certainty this might have been the case; however, this was a campaign.

14 When Mr. Mandic says that everything was cleansed in one month, then you

15 can imagine what sort of hell it must have been.

16 JUDGE ORIE: The only thing I was trying to do to see whether

17 apart from this telephone conversation that you would have specific

18 knowledge on what happened in Grbavica. Apart from this -- these words

19 spoken by the person who took part in that telephone conversation.

20 Thank you very much for your answers.

21 Any further questions? Mr. Stewart, not.

22 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.

24 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

Page 11934

1 Mr. Kljuic, perhaps I --

2 First, Mr. Stewart. At this moment in view of the notes - I

3 hardly dare to use the word - is there anything -- the Chamber has very

4 much in mind at this moment, also in view of what the 37 page the witness

5 has brought us both on paper and in examination that it is -- well, it's

6 not the most relevant material we've seen during this trial.

7 The Chamber would suggest that if the material received now and

8 any material we hopefully receive after I've invited the witness to send

9 it to us would raise any further need to specifically pay attention to

10 it, that written submissions could be filed in that respect. But I leave

11 it to you to address us and to say whether you would think that another

12 approach would be more appropriate.

13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour is talking of written submissions as

14 to, for example, the question of whether Mr. Kljuic should then be

15 cross-examined further?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I didn't use those words, but if you --

17 MR. STEWART: It's hard to avoid it, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: If it's in your mind, I do understand, yes.

19 MR. STEWART: I'm not quite sure what other process.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I didn't want to encourage you in that sense,

21 but.

22 MR. STEWART: I need no encouragement, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It doesn't surprise me that it was on your mind.

24 MR. STEWART: Well of course it is, Your Honour, because I've

25 made that very clear because after all, we're talking about the -- we

Page 11935

1 must, with respect, we suggest, Your Honour, all be extremely open-minded

2 about it because we simply do not know what might arrive.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore no door is closed and if the Defence

4 think that there is any need to further cross-examine Mr. Kljuic on the

5 basis of any notes either received yet but not yet translated, or any

6 notes still to be received, we'd like to receive written submissions on

7 that.

8 MR. STEWART: Of course, Your Honour.

9 May I also just inquire briefly, Your Honour, it may be -- there

10 seems to be some breakdown of communication over which I've made a

11 request of the Trial Chamber, but would it be appropriate for the

12 Defence, and of course the Prosecution would have the same opportunity,

13 to ask -- I think it's what happened before, to comment on any draft

14 communication to be sent to Mr. Kljuic in relation to this matter.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if there's any need to further communicate with

16 Mr. Kljuic, I'll address an invitation to Mr. Kljuic now. If there's any

17 need for further communication in writing, then first the other party

18 should be informed about it. If the Chamber would address Mr. Kljuic,

19 you would be informed about that.

20 MR. STEWART: I'm very much obliged, Your Honour. May I

21 respectfully suggest that it just really wouldn't be a bad idea if

22 whatever Your Honour were about to say were followed up with a written

23 communication to avoid any possible misunderstanding.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take note of that.

25 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 11936

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kljuic, a lot has been said -- no, no, please

2 remain seated.

3 Mr. Kljuic, a lot has been said about notes, notes made at the

4 time; notes of meetings; notes further included in draft sections of your

5 book. This morning, you specifically said to Mr. Stewart that there

6 still might be some notes you have made of meetings in 1991, 1992. You

7 also said that you are willing to review your material and to see whether

8 there is still any there. You also said that you would be willing to

9 send it to the Tribunal.

10 May I invite you to do that. And would that be possible to do

11 that within, well, let's say the next two weeks?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I lose a lot of time coming here

13 and going back and I'm currently advisor for foreign relations -- for

14 foreign policy in the government and I currently have a lot of work

15 there. I have come here for the reasons stated before, although I am

16 recovering from my illness. And you have said that I should give them to

17 you within two weeks. I will do so.

18 JUDGE ORIE: I just was trying to find out whether two weeks

19 would be a reasonable time. If you say -- if you are more comfortable

20 with three weeks ...

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I find the material sooner, in

22 three days, I will send it forthwith. You have to understand me that

23 it's a room full of papers, newspapers, articles, and so on.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kljuic, we have full understanding for your

25 daily schedule especially having recovered from your illness. The

Page 11937

1 Chamber invites you to send within the next three weeks any additional

2 material you would find. We'll send you a short letter to confirm that

3 and then we'll see whether to what that finally will lead, what it leads

4 to anything in this courtroom, yes or no.

5 Mr. Kljuic, you've come already two times now, you've spent five

6 days in this courtroom. I'd like to thank you for answering questions of

7 both parties and the Bench and I wish you not only a safe trip home

8 again, but also a further good recovery from your illness.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, I think exhibits in respect to Mr.

12 Kljuic have not been dealt with yet -- the Prosecution have. Then

13 there's only the remainder which is I think D40 and D41. Any objections?

14 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Then they are admitted into evidence. The new

16 procedure is that we just call the numbers and that the parties are in

17 the position to give any comment on the final description of the

18 documents in the list as prepared by the registry.

19 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?

20 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: No protective measures?

22 MR. HARMON: If I may have leave of the Court, Your Honour. Mr.

23 Margetts will be involved with the next witness and he will respond, Your

24 Honour.


Page 11938

1 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, would Your Honours mind if I could

2 stay tor a few minutes and then slip out as quietly as I can.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Any functional absence due to the change of

4 witnesses, permission is granted for the rest of this trial. But I of

5 course appreciate the politeness shown by both parties.

6 Mr. Margetts, no protective measures?

7 MR. MARGETTS: No protective measures, Your Honour.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Just prior to that, Your Honour, there is an issue I

9 need to raise.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be raised in the presence of the witness or

11 would we prefer to have that done --

12 MS. LOUKAS: I think it's preferable in the absence of the

13 witness.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will ask Mr. Usher to wait for a few moments

15 before the witness is brought in.

16 Ms. Loukas.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour. I just indicated to the

18 court that I received a second supplemental information sheet in relation

19 to this witness at approximately 11.30 a.m. by e-mail this morning. Now,

20 Your Honour, there was a prior supplemental information sheet that's

21 dated 7th of April. That's last week.

22 Now, Your Honours, firstly, that sort of lateness is not

23 acceptable. Secondly -- particularly in view of the fact that the

24 witness is being interviewed since the apparently from -- from the face

25 of the supplemental sheet, from the 7th of April. Thirdly, I've spoken

Page 11939

1 to Mr. Margetts prior to Your Honours coming on the bench and he

2 indicated as far as he was concerned, there was no real difference

3 between the supplemental information sheet of one sentence and one

4 paragraph of the 7th of April and the supplemental information sheet

5 extending over a page of the 11th of April.

6 I will allow Your Honours to be the judge of the differences

7 between the supplemental information sheets and I hand them up for this

8 purpose.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We will receive them.

10 But first of all, Mr. Margetts, is there any explanation for the

11 7th of April where we are living the 12th today or do you disagree.

12 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I disagree with two things. The

13 supplemental information sheet is not an important issue but it was

14 provided as 11.08 not 11.30.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That's great.

16 MR. MARGETTS: Secondly, the representation that I have suggested

17 there's no difference is not a representation I made. I don't know how

18 it's being perceived that way.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. What I asked you was about the date.

20 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, sorry, apologies.

21 Yes, the witness arrived on the Wednesday last week and as Your

22 Honour knows, I've been heavily involved in the witness that preceded Mr.

23 Kljuic, Mr. Trbojevic. And so my meetings with him on the Thursday and

24 the Friday of last week have been short.

25 I did have an opportunity to meet with him yesterday for a longer

Page 11940

1 period. The -- immediately upon receiving some additional information

2 last Thursday, we provided that to the Defence. Immediately upon

3 receiving the additional information or some corrections yesterday, we

4 proceeded to put that in a form of a supplemental information sheet.

5 Obviously the supplemental information sheets can be provided late in the

6 evening on the day that that supplemental information is provided and

7 both the Prosecution and Defence do work late into the evening so that's

8 the usual course. It is clear that this was not what occurred with this

9 supplemental information sheet but it was provided at 11.00.

10 Our position is this: That on this particular supplemental

11 information sheet, the information relates to matters that are either

12 substantially within the Defence's knowledge from the previous statement

13 and amounts to small corrections, or alternatively matters that can be

14 easily perceived and incorporated by Defence in their analysis of the

15 evidence that's to be provided.

16 Supplemental information sheets by their very nature, are an

17 advantage to the Defence. Ordinarily if there was not proofing, the

18 Defence would find out about these corrections and this additional

19 information in the course of examination-in-chief which is not prior to

20 the witness arriving here. So in this instance, I see that practically,

21 the Defence has benefited by the information we've provided and the

22 dispute seems to be as to whether it should have been provided late last

23 night --


25 MR. MARGETTS: -- or early this morning. And frankly, Your

Page 11941

1 Honour, we do our best to provide it at the earliest possible time.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was it -- was the information sheet prepared

3 yesterday?

4 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, it was prepared yesterday.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then there's no reason why not that takes just ten

6 seconds to send it by e-mail to Ms. Loukas so that Ms. Loukas is master

7 of her time to the extent possible, which is not a great extent anyhow.

8 So let that be clear. I mean either late in the evening you

9 finish by sending an e-mail or you start in the morning by sending an

10 e-mail. I think it's fair that it should be done late in the evening.

11 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, could I just for the record say that

12 it was not the intent of the Prosecution for this to go out this morning

13 but it did go out this morning. But our point is that really, this

14 amounts to absolutely no prejudice to the Defence.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It doesn't change what I just said.

16 Ms. Loukas, could we be provided with the supplemental information sheet.

17 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. This is the supplemental

18 information sheet of the 7th of April and this is the one that arrived

19 this morning which I indicated was approximately 11.30 but I am so

20 thankful that Mr. Margetts points out it's 11.08 because it so added to

21 his argument.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, could you tell us what bothers you most,

24 I take it especially in the 11.08.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Well, indeed, I don't think it's hardly a point and

Page 11942

1 I don't propose to address it. It is of no real consequence and of

2 course I think that --

3 JUDGE ORIE: If you say it's -- we are not going -- it will not

4 -- we'll not cause to ask us for further delays to examination of this

5 witness.

6 MS. LOUKAS: No, I shouldn't think so.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then proceed, but at the same time, I think

8 you've made your point.

9 The last thing we do before going to sleep is to ask ourselves

10 whether we have sent every material to the other party. That's the basic

11 message.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, that's certainly what I do before

13 I go to sleep. And I would recommend to Mr. Margetts he does the same.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Margetts are you ready to ...

15 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, we're ready to proceed.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort Mr. Omeragic into

17 the courtroom.

18 [The witness entered court]


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Omeragic. Can you hear me in a

22 language you understand?

23 Mr. Omeragic, before you give evidence in this court, the Rules

24 of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that

25 will you speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The

Page 11943












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 11944

1 text is now handed out to you by the usher. I invite you to make that

2 solemn declaration.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

4 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

6 Please be seated, Mr. Omeragic. You will first be examined by

7 Mr. Margetts, counsel for the Prosecution.

8 Mr. Margetts, before you start, is my recollection correct that

9 it is three hours on --

10 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, four hours was what we had specified.

11 I have indicated to the Defence that we may possibly be quicker than that

12 but we would be in a better position to judge that at the end of the

13 first session.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Margetts. On the basis of what the Chamber

15 has seen, that is the statement, if you focus at what really -- if at

16 least the testimony is about what he has told you in the statement, it

17 could be done without any problem in half that time.

18 Please proceed.

19 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour, you will attempt to

20 expedite the examination.

21 Examined by Mr. Margetts:

22 Q. Mr. Omeragic, could you please state your full name for the

23 Court.

24 A. My name is Sead Omeragic.

25 Q. And Mr. Omeragic, you were born on the 7th of July 1958 in

Page 11945

1 Trebinje, Bosnia and Herzegovina and your ethnicity is Bosniak; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. In 1982, you graduated from Sarajevo University and in 1983, you

5 commenced your career which you are still pursuing as a journalist; is

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, as far as the CV is concerned which is

9 the first part of his statement, would there be any problem if we would

10 refer to the statement in that respect?

11 MS. LOUKAS: No problem whatsoever, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.


14 Q. When the war commenced in Bosnia and Herzegovina were you working

15 for the newspaper Slobodna Bosna?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. In early 1992, that's early April 1992, did you learn that forces

18 commanded by Arkan, Zeljko Raznjatovic, had assumed control or Bijeljina

19 city and a delegation of the Presidency of SR BiH had failed to gain

20 access to the town on or around the 2nd of April?

21 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that we've actually

22 gone straight into the heart of the question via a leading question and I

23 do object to that. The sort of information that needs to be elicited

24 about the Presidency and what have you should, in my submission, be led

25 from the witness without leading questions.

Page 11946

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, I see in the statement about the visit

2 on the 4th of April and how important and relevant is it that that two

3 days earlier, as you suggested in your question, that a visit failed?

4 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, it's not an important matter, it was

5 really a matter of trying to set the logic up for Your Honours. But if

6 Your Honours have read the statement then we don't need this information.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may have taken from my earlier objections

8 that we have. Please proceed.

9 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. On the 4th of April, 1992, a further delegation visited Bijeljina

11 including Fikret Abdic, Biljana Plavsic, General Prascevic and yourself

12 and you accompanied Fikret Abdic; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, correct.

14 Q. When you Fikret Abdic, you did so in the guise of his body guard

15 Fikret Abdic having told you that you were too large physically to appear

16 as his chief of cabinet; is that correct?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. Would you tell the Court what Fikret Abdic was and what his

19 position was at the time and who General Prascevic what and what his

20 position was at the time.

21 A. Fikret Abdic was a member of the Presidency of Bosnia and

22 Herzegovina, which was then the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

23 he was one of six members of the Presidency. General Prascevic was some

24 sort of man number two in the 2nd Corps of the army under the command of

25 General Kukanjac who was based in Sarajevo.

Page 11947

1 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to present the first exhibit

2 to the witness. That's the article that was published on the 10th of

3 April, 1992.

4 JUDGE ORIE: The exhibit may be presented to the witness. Is

5 that the same as attached to the statement?

6 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Is it part of the statement? Would it be included

8 in the statement if tendered and admitted into evidence? You understand

9 what I mean?

10 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, it's not exhibited to the

11 statement formally on the first page of the statement but it is referred

12 to and explained in the second paragraph of the statement so we would

13 tender it with the statement, if the statement was to go into evidence.

14 JUDGE ORIE: As an attachment.


16 JUDGE ORIE: So at this need moment, to need to give it a

17 separate exhibit number.

18 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, would you like us to tender the

19 statement with the attachment at this stage.

20 JUDGE ORIE: We could give it an exhibit number at this moment.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Do you want to tender that? It's not entirely clear

23 whether you have any 89 (F) in mind or not at all.

24 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour, this is a viva voce because we

25 didn't intend tendering the statement but it's really not a matter that

Page 11948

1 we have a position on.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's then take the -- let's then take the

3 article as an exhibit.

4 Madam Registrar.

5 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Prosecution Exhibit P584.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And that's the publication with the headline "The

7 Bloody Bajram in Bijeljina," of the 10th of April, 1992.

8 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.


10 Q. Mr. Omeragic, the article that you have before you, is that an

11 article you wrote upon your return from Bijeljina and was published in

12 Slobodna Bosna on the 10th of April, 1992?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Omeragic. I have no further questions in relation

15 to that exhibit.

16 I'd like now to turn to your travel to Bijeljina. Is it correct

17 that you drove in a convoy of around of about five cars? You were in one

18 car with Fikret Abdic and Biljana Plavsic was in another vehicle in the

19 same convoy.

20 A. Yes. I was in Mr. Abdic's car and I was seated right behind his

21 official driver. His bodyguard was sitting next to me. Mrs. Biljana

22 Plavsic, in her car, was most of the time behind us. She was in the car

23 together with her driver and her bodyguard. I don't believe they had a

24 fourth passenger.

25 And another vehicle was the jeep of General Prascevic. He had

Page 11949

1 his own escorts including a young man that I knew. I believe he had the

2 rank of staff sergeant. There were some police escorts, but they weren't

3 much help in crossing the checkpoints we encountered on the way.

4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Omeragic. When you passed through the city of

5 Ugljevik which I believe is about 15 minutes outside of Bijeljina, could

6 you describe to the Court what you observed there in terms of the

7 presence of military personnel.

8 A. First we reached a barricade where an old yellow truck was placed

9 across the road like a roadblock and there were large piles of sand in

10 addition to the truck so it was very difficult to pass through. Even

11 later when they allowed us through, I looked to the side and I saw some

12 civilians who had their guns trained on us. We were stopped originally

13 by uniformed persons who I believe belonged to the Territorial Defence,

14 some 7 or 8 of them. We negotiated for a while about whether they would

15 allow us to go through.

16 Mrs. Biljana Plavsic talked to them and it seemed to work;

17 however, all of us representatives from the media were forced to turn

18 around and go back and even later, whenever journalists wanted to come to

19 Bijeljina from Sarajevo, they had to use different roads. I was the only

20 one on that occasion from the Sarajevo media to pass through.

21 Every 200 metres or so we would run into a new checkpoint. One

22 was manned by soldiers dressed in olive-green/grey uniforms. They stood

23 there almost frozen like statues, watching cars pass by.

24 Q. What ethnicity were the soldiers?

25 A. I believe they had to be Serbs.

Page 11950

1 Q. You said that you were the only member of the Sarajevo media

2 allowed through at that time. Was that because you were presented as the

3 bodyguard of Fikret Abdic?

4 A. I believe that was the only reason, otherwise I would have never

5 passed through.

6 Q. As you entered Bijeljina, did you observe anything about the

7 houses?

8 A. Well, I looked around. I was very interested in seeing what the

9 whole thing looked like. And one had to notice inevitably that all the

10 shutters were down, all the windows were hidden behind the shutters. It

11 was only once that a woman appeared through the shutters in the window.

12 I was able to see her because we were not going very fast. Her face was

13 about 10 metres away from me and there was fear in her eyes.

14 Q. As you entered Bijeljina, did you see a mosque and, if so, what

15 did you observe about that mosque?

16 A. I observed as we were entering Bijeljina that the the Serbian

17 flag was flying on top of the great mosque I believe it is the largest

18 mosque in Bijeljina on the tower. I saw that flag and I remember turning

19 to Mr. Abdic in the car and saying, "Look where they hoisted the flag."

20 It was only when we had gone on another 10 metres that Abdic said

21 suddenly, "What are you talking about? What flag?" As if it took him

22 that long to think about it. However, the driver stopped the car and we

23 got out and the driver said, "Yes, there is indeed a flag hoisted on top

24 of the mosque." And Abdic said, "Never mind, go on." However, we had

25 all seen the flag before we started again.

Page 11951

1 Q. Later on and we'll get to this in your evidence, but you did tour

2 the town and you spoke to various people. In your conversations with

3 these people, did you hear any further information about the mosques in

4 Bijeljina?

5 A. I know there was a flag on the second mosque as well which is in

6 the city park and I also know that when Mr. Abdic wanted to enter the

7 mosque in the park, he was not allowed to. And the way he was forbidden

8 from entering is also strange.

9 At one point, a sniper started shooting over our heads and people

10 panicked, but Abdic's driver said that there was a sniper on top of the

11 mosque so this whole attempt fell through.

12 In front of me, there were two Arkan's men and I heard them

13 talking and we were going around the town, they were talking precisely

14 about that and they were saying something like, "It would be a real

15 surprise if they went into the mosque."

16 Another thing was inside the mosques, people were saying victims

17 were being hidden from public view. That may have been the reason why

18 they didn't let Mr. Abdic go in.

19 Another thing I heard was that the mosques were looted on the

20 first day. I heard these men talking about it saying that it was the

21 local Serbs who had done it.

22 Q. At some stage did you turn on radio in the car and, if so, what

23 did you hear?

24 A. As one point as we were entering Bijeljina, something happened

25 that was perhaps the greatest shock of all to me. Radio Semberija from

Page 11952

1 Majevica, which is in fact the Bijeljina main radio, broadcast that 25

2 bodies had been found on the main garbage dump in the town. And I

3 couldn't keep quiet in the car, I was so impressed that I said to the

4 others in the car, "Did you hear this, that 25 bodies had been found on

5 the garbage dump?" And Abdic, as if wanting to deny it said, "What are

6 you talking about? What is it that you heard?" However, the bodyguard

7 and the driver, although they must have heard it, did not support me,

8 probably out of respect for Abdic. And we just continued on our way

9 without further comment. But it stuck in my mind.

10 Q. Again, we will refer to your tour of the town but whilst you were

11 touring the town, did anyone give you similar information about the

12 garbage dump whilst you were on the tour?

13 A. I don't remember whether it was exactly on the garbage dump but I

14 remember that Arkan's men were never far away from us as we were touring

15 the town, one or two metres away from me at all times. At one point I

16 approached the people from the Territorial Defence, the uniformed men and

17 asked one of them, seeking any sort of information, I said, in fact,

18 "It's a good thing that you slaughtered those balijas." And the man

19 said, "Yes, it's good we killed them."

20 There was also some information about some murders I got from a

21 woman who intercepted me in front of the town hall. I talked to her, in

22 fact, I tried to comfort her as far as I could. Her face had an

23 unhealthy colour. She was very disappointed and upset talking about some

24 people who wanted to get out of Bijeljina at any cost. I realised later

25 that she was a Serb woman. But even she, as it turns out, wanted to

Page 11953

1 leave Bijeljina. I believe she was a member of some liberal party. She

2 talked about some murders and some horrors.

3 I had another encounter after we visited the hospital. I believe

4 I'll have to come back to that later.

5 I had another encounter --

6 Q. Yes, thank you, Mr. Omeragic. I'll ask you specific questions

7 about each of those encounters as we approach them in a chronological

8 sequence; however, since you have mentioned this woman, can you confirm

9 that this woman spoke to you toward the end of your tour when you were

10 outside the municipal hall?

11 A. That was certainly at the end of our visit to Bijeljina. We had

12 already toured whatever we had to tour, and we were getting ready to

13 leave.

14 Q. Yes. And just in relation to that conversation, did she mention

15 an old man to you by the name of Milo Lukic?

16 A. Yes, Milo Lukic. He was a brother to a national hero. I believe

17 two persons mentioned to me that he had been killed. She confirmed to me

18 that Milo Lukic, brother of a national hero from World War II - and of

19 course that was at the time the greatest praise one could get, to be

20 called national hero - well his brother, according to her, was killed

21 because he had taken into his home an entire Muslim family to keep them

22 safe. That was how she recounted it to me.

23 Q. Did she refer to any other killings?

24 A. As far as I remember, she was mentioning a cellar where some 22

25 persons had been killed because a hand grenade had been thrown amongst

Page 11954












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13 English transcripts.













Page 11955

1 them. And a boxer, she mentioned a boxer had also having been killed. I

2 don't know who that person was.

3 Q. What nationality were the people who had been killed?

4 A. As far as I could gather, there were 42 persons killed in all.

5 27 of them were Muslims, one was a lady Croat, and two were Serbs. I

6 believe one was an elderly man and the other one was Milo Lukic, the

7 brother of the national hero. The lady was an elderly person called

8 Milica. I don't know her last name.

9 Q. Mr. Omeragic, just for clarification, the numbers that you

10 provided as far as I can quickly add them don't appear to equate. You

11 said 42 persons were killed, 27 were Muslims, one was a Croat and two

12 were Serbs. That's a total of 30 people. Could you again specify --

13 A. No, 30. 37, I believe, were Bosniaks, Muslims. One lady Croat

14 or a man Croat, I'm not -- actually, I'm not really certain about their

15 nationalities because you know, names tend to be quite similar or

16 unusual. But I believe there were 37 Bosniaks, perhaps two Croats, and

17 then two Serbs or I'm not certain.

18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Omeragic. One more matter, did the lady, when she

19 was speaking to you outside the municipal hall, point anyone out to you

20 and give you any information about that person?

21 A. At one point, as I was trying to comfort her, because I was

22 frightened by the colour of her face and I had to react in some way, I

23 was telling her all the time, "Everything is going to be fine." As she

24 was telling me about these murders, she mentioned the name of Jusuf

25 Tanovic. She said that his family had been killed and that his son,

Page 11956

1 perhaps, had also been killed. She pointed to a person that passed by us

2 at a distance of some 60 to 70 metres along a side street as an

3 apparition or a shadow, and she said, "Well that's the person whose

4 family had been killed and he paces the town all day long and cannot find

5 peace."

6 Q. When the lady spoke to you, were other members of the delegation

7 present and if so, who; and how far away from you were they?

8 A. Closest to me was Mr. Fikret Abdic.

9 MS. LOUKAS: I'm trying not to object constantly though there are

10 plenty of opportunities. But just in relation to this, these compound

11 questions, Your Honour, are unacceptable. It's very simple to ask the

12 question and it doesn't require the additional aspects. They can be

13 asked seriatim and it's simply inappropriate because it suggests the

14 answer and it's just not appropriate, Your Honour. The question can be

15 asked very simply: "When the lady spoke to you, who was present?"

16 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we are in the Court's hands on this.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, on the one hand we are pressing you not to lose

18 any time and also, I do agree with you that it saves quite some time if

19 you put questions in a leading way and of course very often the Defence

20 sees no reason to --

21 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- oppose and that's highly appreciated.

23 MS. LOUKAS: I'm trying to use my discretion with these matters.


25 MS. LOUKAS: There is a whole series of matters that I could have

Page 11957

1 objected to. I'm not going to. But Your Honour, when we get this sort

2 of compound questions, when it's something that involves this sort of

3 question it really should be led in a more clear-cut fashion.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, when I said earlier that -- I'll give

5 you some more guidance once the witness has left in five minutes from

6 now, approximately. That might be more appropriate to do.

7 Until then, you are really in our hands, yes. Could you please

8 reformulate the question.

9 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Omeragic, when this lady spoke to you, were other members of

11 the delegation present?

12 A. For a while, only -- for the portion of my conversation with the

13 lady, I believe Fikret Abdic was near us and he even joined in at a

14 certain point and said, "Things will work out fine." As soon as the

15 conversation became more serious, we started talking about murders and so

16 on, he turned away and faced the municipality building where other

17 members of the delegation were, Ms. Plavsic and Mr. Prascevic.

18 Q. How far away from Ms. Plavsic and Mr. Prascevic?

19 A. They were some 7 or 8 metres away. Perhaps a bit more, I can't

20 be certain. They were further away and out of earshot.

21 Q. During the course of your visit to Bijeljina, did you meet a

22 friend of yours who was a reporter from Belgrade and if so, what did he

23 tell you?

24 A. We met and recognised each other, of course, despite the whole

25 hustle and he was a reporter for Slobodna Bosna as well where I worked.

Page 11958

1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed the name.

2 A. At one point, as we were talking, I even tried to conceal my true

3 function there and presented myself to him as Abdic's bodyguard and

4 spokesperson and he told me, "Well when did you leave Slobodna Bosna?

5 How come you're not working there any longer?" I continued playing my

6 role because I wanted to conceal the very purpose of my being there.

7 As we were talking, he said, "Everything has been cleaned around

8 here. The streets have been cleared up so that no traces of any fighting

9 remain or traces of anything that would point to what was going on here."

10 He said the streets were cleaned, were washed, that's how he put it.

11 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I note the time. I just have a very

12 brief video clip which is 30 seconds in duration which I think we could

13 cover in the next five minutes and that is the next exhibit on the list.

14 JUDGE ORIE: If you could do it in three minutes, we could start

15 because I've got one or two observations to make.

16 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, I think we could achieve that.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's get started.

18 [Videotape played]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, you may get started and meanwhile, the

20 registrar will think about numbers to be assigned.

21 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 [Videotape played]


24 Q. Mr. Omeragic if you could just view your screen and watch this

25 video.

Page 11959

1 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] You will notice the tension, the

2 nervousness in the air.

3 MR. MARGETTS: Now, Your Honour, if we could just show the

4 witness a clip from that video.

5 Q. Mr. Omeragic, what does that video and this clip depict?

6 A. It depicts the arrival in front of the Bijeljina municipality

7 building.

8 Should I take people from the left or the right?

9 Q. If you could indicate to the Court moving from the right of the

10 screen to the left who the people are depicted in that clip.

11 A. The first person at the right-hand side in jeans and the shirt is

12 me and then a bit up front to the left of me is General Prascevic. The

13 third person from the right is, I believe, Mr. Abdic's driver. The

14 fourth person is Mr. Abdic himself and the fifth person behind in uniform

15 is Predrag Milosavljevic or Vladisavljevic and the sixth person is Mr.

16 Abdic's bodyguard. I believe his name is Mahmutovic.

17 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Mr. Omeragic.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, would this be a point to stop.

19 First of all, a very technical matter. The text spoken has not

20 been fully translated for the transcript but I take it that the text was

21 not the most important for you.

22 Ms. Loukas, should we replay that or, if the transcript would be

23 admitted into evidence, the first is an anchorman anyhow and the words

24 according to the transcript spoken, apart from those translated are just:

25 "Indeed, we waited for quite some time for them to arrive for the

Page 11960

1 meeting."

2 MS. LOUKAS: I don't have a problem with that, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then Mr. Registrar, the video would get?

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P585, Your

5 Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: 585. Finally we will find out whether there are As

7 or Bs and whether we receive them on CD-ROMs, we'll do that once --

8 according to our customs and then at least the transcript is P585 and

9 then something added to that, I take it.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE ORIE: The video clip is P585, the transcript is P585A, and

12 then English translation will be P585A.1.

13 Yes. Mr. Omeragic, it's already time to stop for the day. We

14 would like to see you back tomorrow morning, 9.00 in this same courtroom.

15 I would like to instruct you not to speak with anyone about your

16 testimony, either testimony already given or still to be given. We'd

17 like to see you back tomorrow.

18 Mr. Usher, could you escort Mr. Omeragic out of the courtroom.

19 [The witness stands down]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Two small points at this moment. First of all, we

21 received yesterday the submissions by the Defence on the recall of -- or

22 at least the further cross-examination of Mr. Bjelobrk. Will the OTP

23 respond to that or and if so, when?

24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, if I have a chance to look at this

25 evening, I can perhaps respond sometime tomorrow orally if that's

Page 11961

1 acceptable by the Court.

2 JUDGE ORIE: We will at least wait for news by tomorrow. That's

3 number one.

4 The second, Mr. Margetts, the issue of leading questions, of

5 course, is extremely difficult because under normal circumstances, you

6 would say no leading questions in chief; on the other hand, if we would

7 follow that system, we'd still be here in 2015.

8 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, could we put -- our position is that

9 leading questions or wholly appropriate in chief where it's not a

10 contentious matter.


12 MR. MARGETTS: So our position is a little different to that.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Of course if it's not contentious you would not

14 expect any objection by the other party. That's -- the question now is

15 how to find out whether a matter is contentious or not.

16 First of all, with if we have a statement of course, there could

17 be some communication, you could be -- Ms. Loukas, you could ask specific

18 to Mr. Margetts to, in certain areas, not to lead the witness because you

19 would object. That would be of some guidance for Mr. Margetts, anyhow.

20 At the same time, if I look at the statement, what appears to be the

21 essence of what we at least would expect this testimony is -- of course

22 if we look at a statement, we see that there's quite some information of

23 what happened on the ground.

24 It is the experience of this Chamber that very often, the events

25 that happen on the ground can be put to the witness in a leading way.

Page 11962

1 MS. LOUKAS: And I certainly haven't objected to matters that

2 have sort, Your Honour. I'm adopting a sensible approach in these

3 matters and I'm always happy to give Mr. Margetts guidance.

4 One point that I would make is that it seems to me that -- well,

5 of course this evidence is direct evidence, of course, in relation to

6 Mrs. Plavsic and of course it was a witness that was selected when of

7 course Mrs. Plavsic was co-accused to Mr. Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to you if you want to make any additional

9 observations. But from what I read in this statement, I could imagine

10 that the sensitive issues are first: The knowledge of superior

11 authorities, direct knowledge on what happened on the ground. That might

12 well be a sensitive issue.

13 Perhaps the second issue that might be sensitive is the direct

14 interaction between paramilitaries and people in the superior position in

15 Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16 I would expect objections on leading specifically in those

17 fields, of course, not only because Mrs. Plavsic is a superior -- was a

18 superior authority at least; that's the impression we gained until now.

19 But also that she was in a position for a considerable period of time at

20 least that's our impression as well, on the basis of the evidence we

21 heard until now, that she was in the Presidency together with Mr.

22 Krajisnik.

23 So there, I would expect, as a matter of fact, that sensitivity

24 would lead to objections if you would lead the witness in that respect.

25 If I may make any other comments, since I'm pressing very much to

Page 11963

1 use our time as efficient as possible, I do not know whether the exact

2 formations of the cars and who was sitting next to whom and of course

3 unless you'd like to make a major point out of how at the roadblocks one

4 would pass and what would be authority of a leading politician in getting

5 through the roadblocks. But I didn't get the feeling that that's one of

6 the issues you really wanted to explore. And under those circumstances,

7 you could even wonder whether such questions are at all assisting the

8 Chamber in making the determinations it will have to make.

9 Ms. Loukas, I said I would give you an opportunity to add

10 whatever you wanted.

11 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, fortunately there is no need for

12 me to add anything at this point. The aspects of the guidance that Your

13 Honour has indicated to Mr. Margetts, the areas, of course, that are the

14 areas that must be looked at with some sensitivity.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I also can imagine, Mr. Margetts, that the

16 examination-in-chief would then -- apart from dealing with other matters

17 but then perhaps pay more attention to those issues, I mean if they are

18 sensitive for the Defence, they might be of importance for the

19 Prosecution whereas other matters might be covered by other evidence we

20 heard on, I would say crime-base evidence. Not that Bijeljina is not

21 important for crime-base evidence also, but there, for example, one could

22 have thought about -- could have thought about 89(F).

23 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. And in that respect, I'd just

24 like to draw the Court and the Defence's attention to the 92 bis evidence

25 that has been admitted without cross-examination in regard to Bijeljina.

Page 11964

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. We would ask ourselves what this

2 evidence, just on main crime base, without any of the other sensitive

3 issues would add to that. But of course it's up to the Prosecution to

4 present its case.

5 With apologies again - I don't want to make that a routine, I

6 hope you understand that - but with apologies to the interpreters and the

7 technicians, we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.

9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of

10 April, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.