Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12378

1 Wednesday, 20 April 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber apologises for the late start which

6 exceptionally is due to the Chamber.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case

9 number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Mr. Margetts, will it be you who is going to examine the next

12 witness?

13 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Protective measures are pseudonym, face distortion,

15 voice distortion.

16 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, they are all prepared? They are.

18 And on identifying parts of the testimony, it will be private session.

19 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then Madam Usher, could you escort the witness into

21 the courtroom.

22 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, just one comment in relation to this

23 witness and that was it was intended that this would be an 89(F) witness.

24 Instead what we're going to do is read two of the paragraphs of the

25 witness statement to the witness and have her confirm whether they are

Page 12379

1 correct or not instead of introducing any further paper.


3 MR. MARGETTS: One other matter, Your Honour, and that was the

4 contextual exhibits for Witness KRAJ 73 which Ms. Edgerton presented.

5 There were two documents that were already in evidence, and Ms. Edgerton

6 informed me that we didn't incorporate those in the list that was read

7 out to the Court, in fact only those that were not in evidence that were

8 read out as contextual exhibits and she wanted me to make the Court aware

9 that there were these two further documents that were already in

10 evidence.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, no decision was needed to admit

12 them into evidence since they are in evidence. But I can imagine that

13 most important for you is to draw our attention to the fact that these

14 exhibits are of importance for the understanding of that testimony.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 MR. MARGETTS: If I could just mention those two documents.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I'd rather -- would like you to invite you to wait

18 until a later stage to mention them or to give the numbers to Madam

19 Registrar so that we can first draw our attention to the witness.

20 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness 273, because that's the way

22 we will address you since the Chamber has --

23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for His Honour, please.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I made a mistake. I should have said good

25 afternoon Witness 239, because that's the number with which we will

Page 12380

1 address you since we -- the Chamber has decided that we'll not use your

2 name, that your face will not appear for the outside world any way you

3 could be recognised, and that similarly, your voice will be distorted as

4 well so that there's no risk of identification.

5 Witness 239, before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of

6 Procedure and Evidence require you to make is a solemn declaration that

7 you will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The

8 text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher. May I invite you to make

9 that solemn declaration.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

13 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Witness 239, please be seated.

15 You will first be examined by Mr. Margetts who is counsel for the

16 Prosecution.

17 Mr. Margetts, you may proceed.

18 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if the witness could be presented

19 with the pseudonym sheet.

20 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P628, under seal.

21 Examined by Mr. Margetts:

22 Q. Witness 239, can you see that sheet before you and can you

23 confirm that that sheet sets out your name and your date of birth?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. Witness 239, is your ethnicity Croatian?

Page 12381

1 A. Yes, it is.

2 Q. In early May of 1992, were you residing in the area of Grbavica

3 in the municipality of Novo Sarajevo?

4 A. Yes, I was.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I'd to remind you that you have to turn off your

6 microphone when the witness answers the question.

7 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. In early May 1992, did you observe a military presence in Novo

9 Sarajevo?

10 A. Yes, I did.

11 Q. Can you describe that military presence to the Court.

12 A. Sometime on the 6th of May or rather in early May, because as

13 early as the 6th of April, there were roadblocks and one could not exit

14 Grbavica. In May, trucks and the military came to Grbavica and this was

15 already under their control, of the Serbs, I mean.

16 Q. You stated that it was already under their control, and you

17 referred to it being under the control of the Serbs. Can you be more

18 specific and tell the Court which military or political group you're

19 referring to.

20 A. As early as May, one could not go out of Grbavica across any of

21 the bridges because this was prevented by the Serbian army. Or rather

22 later on, it turned out that the army was the JNA. Whoever wanted to

23 cross the bridge had to have a special pass issued by a military unit.

24 They had their staff stationed at Grbavica and they had their men

25 stationed at intervals of 20 metres and one could not avoid them if one

Page 12382

1 wanted to go across the bridge.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that and just a

3 marker at this point. Generalised questions as to which military

4 presence as opposed to specifically what the witness saw and heard, Your

5 Honour, is of not a great deal of assistance to the Trial Chamber, I

6 would submit, and I would submit the evidence needs to be elicited in a

7 somewhat more focused fashion rather than a generalised question about

8 military presence. Military or political group you're referring to was

9 the way in which the question was posed.

10 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, a response if I may.


12 MR. MARGETTS: I don't know whether the objection is in relation

13 to the basis upon which this witness has come to that conclusion, or

14 alternatively, the specificity of the question. In regard to the

15 specificity of the question, we would say it's adequate. In regard to

16 the basis for this witness's impression, we haven't investigated that and

17 we don't intend to.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, sometimes dealing with a situation

19 in an area would not, under all circumstances, allow to describe. I mean

20 if you want to describe a wood, then of course you could do it tree by

21 tree. You also could say was there wood. And then of course it's always

22 a mixture of observing facts and generalising them in some way which is

23 not inadmissible. It was not a formal objection you made, but that's not

24 inadmissible. And of course if the other party would have some doubts if

25 there was a wood, they could ask the witness to describe the trees in

Page 12383

1 that wood.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that -- obviously I

3 take on board what Your Honour says and I wouldn't object to -- I

4 wouldn't expect a description tree by tree.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You understand what I mean. I of course

6 exaggerated. But I thought sometimes matters become more understandable

7 even if there is some exaggeration in that.

8 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. I understand Your Honour's

9 point and I very much take that on board. What I indicated there was of

10 course basically a marker and I didn't lodge a formal objection. But I

11 want to make it clear at the outset that these sort of questions that

12 relate to generalised impressions as opposed to eliciting a factual basis

13 is something that I want the Prosecution to be alert to because that is

14 something that, Your Honour, I will be objecting to.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then see --

16 Witness, this is just procedure. We'll now continue to hear what

17 you've got to tell us.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.


20 (redacted)

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Page 12384

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8 [Private session]

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Page 12385

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17 [Open session]


19 Q. Witness 239, we are now moving into open session and just to

20 remind you of the question, it was basically if you could describe to the

21 Court whether you were able to move freely within Grbavica from May 1992.

22 A. Nobody was able to move freely or rather one could move freely

23 only on what was called the Serb-controlled side. We were not able to

24 buy staple foods; we didn't have electricity, water, or telephone

25 connections. We were completely cut off.

Page 12386












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Page 12387

1 This, however, was not true for those of their lot because they

2 had relatives that they could rely upon and it was less of a hard time

3 for them than for us.

4 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to present to the witness

5 the document that is listed as the second Prosecution Exhibit and it's a

6 previous exhibit, P529, tab 158.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

8 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if I could draw the Court's attention

9 to paragraph 6 which appears on page 3 of this document. It's a document

10 Your Honours have seen before.

11 Q. Witness 239, if you could turn to page 3 of the B/C/S, and the

12 paragraph with the heading 6 and the heading 6 is "The Treatment of

13 Muslims and Croats." And I will just read this into the record and I

14 will ask your comment on this paragraph, Witness 239.

15 The paragraph reads as follows: "Citizens of all nationalities

16 assemble frequently especially in Grbavica and our public attitude is

17 very correct. We appoint a head of every building who is responsible for

18 the situation in his building and for all the information about the

19 occupants. Secretly, the police apply the usual procedure to people who

20 were engaged in military activities against us."

21 Witness 239, at the beginning of June 1992, was it the fact that

22 citizens of all nationalities assembled frequently, especially in

23 Grbavica?

24 A. We did not assemble anywhere in the streets. All the residents

25 who were afraid or whose movement was restricted met either in the

Page 12388

1 corridors of our buildings or in our own apartments. We did not move

2 about the streets though.

3 Q. I refer you to a further part of this paragraph and is says,

4 "Secretly the police apply the usual procedure to people who were engaged

5 in military activities against us." Do you have any knowledge as to what

6 that usual procedure was and if so, could you inform the court about

7 that.

8 A. The police procedure consisted in them coming to see us two or

9 three times a day, to search our premises looking for weapons, asking

10 after some of our family members. Later on, when they realised that, for

11 instance, my son wasn't there with me, they would come at any time of the

12 day or night to inquire after his whereabouts. And since they could not

13 find any weapons or anything that was of their interest, then they would

14 desist in that respect.

15 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if the next exhibit could be

16 presented to the witness and that's marked number 3 on the Prosecution

17 list and is a previous Exhibit 273. And Madam Usher and Your Honour, if

18 the witness could also retain P529, tab 158.

19 MS. LOUKAS: Just to confirm where we are, this is a previous

20 exhibit of P529, tab 158, that we're about to go to and I don't believe I

21 heard the number of the previous one which I understand was the previous

22 exhibit.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Number 3 on the list is P273.

24 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, the one we've been looking at is

25 P529. I asked if the witness could retain P529 and I've asked also that

Page 12389

1 she could be presented with P273 at the same time.

2 Q. Witness 239, I'd like you to return to document P529 and this

3 time to look at the paragraph headed 8, which is at the bottom of the

4 page you were just reading I'd just like to read it into the record. It

5 refers to accommodation of fighters from other areas and it says, "For

6 those fighters who have joined regular units, we provide accommodation in

7 empty and deserted Croatian and Muslim flats. It continues, saying: "We

8 give them permission to use those flats temporarily and they assume the

9 obligations to take care of the furniture."

10 Can you focus on the words "empty and deserted Croatian and

11 Muslim flats" and describe to the Court what the situation was in

12 Grbavica as at the start of June 1992.

13 A. In early June 1992, large numbers of Croats and Muslims left

14 their homes, locked them up and, and thought that they would be safe as

15 they were. However, as the army came in, they broke into these

16 abandoned apartments and entrusted them to some army members saying that

17 these would be their flats for keeping.

18 As for them taking good care of the state the apartments were in,

19 they were after a while completely demolished including the water taps,

20 water connections, electricity, installations, everything.

21 Q. Thank you. If you could now refer to the next document that's

22 before you and that's the document dated 19 July 1992 and it's

23 correspondence from the president of the Presidency Radovan Karadzic to

24 the municipalities listed at the top. There are 7 municipalities listed

25 and one of them is Novo Sarajevo. And I'd like to take you to the first

Page 12390

1 paragraph and read that into the record and invite your comment.

2 Dr. Karadzic writes, "We would like to ask you to make an

3 inventory of all housing capacities on the territory of your

4 municipality, weekend houses, houses, flats, which are free following the

5 voluntary moving out of the Muslim population. You are to do this in

6 cooperation with police stations." And he continues.

7 The words I'd like you to focus on are "the voluntary moving out

8 of the Muslim population." And I'd like you to inform the Court as to

9 what your response is to Dr. Karadzic's words.

10 A. Let me tell you, nobody was willing to leave their apartment and

11 go somewhere where they were not sure whether they would find any

12 accommodation. They left with bags in their hands, had to pay the Serb

13 authorities there to put them through, to pass across the bridge. They

14 thought that they were only going to stay with some of their relatives

15 for a while and that they would soon return to their homes. However,

16 this was not the case. They did not return as soon as they thought they

17 would, if they did at all. The same applies to me personally.

18 Q. Can you tell the Court why it was that these people left and were

19 willing to pay the Serb authorities to do so?

20 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to that, I do object

21 because the witness is not in a position to speak for all the people in

22 Grbavica. Your Honour, I would submit that the witness can give evidence

23 in relation to her own personal experience and in relation to what she

24 has heard from others in view of the fact that the Trial Chamber accepts

25 hearsay to a certain extent. But to attempt to wrap up matters of such

Page 12391

1 significance in this general form, Your Honour, I would submit, is not of

2 great assistance to the Trial Chamber.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts.

4 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, it's implicit in any question to any

5 witness that the basis that Ms. Loukas described is the basis for their

6 answer. Unless they generalise their answer further, I don't see the

7 necessity for us to specifically go through the detail and spend the

8 Court's time finding a specific basis in a specific conversation.

9 Also, I think this is a matter for the Prosecution to decide as

10 to the nature of the evidence they wish to put before the Trial Chamber.

11 In our assessment, a resident in Grbavica for a period who has indicated

12 association with other members of Grbavica and has observed that is

13 someone that can answer the question that was put to her and does have a

14 basis for it without anything further.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber did not consider Mr. Margetts's question

18 to ask the witness to tell what would be beyond her knowledge.

19 MS. LOUKAS: If Your Honour pleases.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Margetts, but at the same time,

21 the concerns expressed by Ms. Loukas could be met by you as you indicated

22 already that you would do.

23 Please proceed.


25 Q. Witness, I'll just put that question to you again, and that is

Page 12392

1 this: You referred to persons leaving Grbavica and you stated they were

2 willing to pay the Serb authorities to do so. Can you tell the Chamber

3 what information you have as to the reasons why these people wished to

4 leave and pay to do so.

5 A. I will tell you why they left. I stayed at Grbavica until

6 mid-June and then I was taken to a camp where only Muslims and Croats

7 were held. In order to avoid that fate of being taken to a camp, people

8 were willing to pay to be allowed to leave the occupied territory rather

9 than wait and see what will happen to them.

10 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if we could move into private

11 session, I'd like to proceed to read a paragraph from the ICTY statement

12 to the witness.

13 JUDGE ORIE: We turn it to private session.

14 [Private session]

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Page 12393











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Page 12394

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4 [Open session]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, you may proceed.


7 Q. Witness 239, you referred to there being a restriction on the

8 freedom of movement of people in Grbavica. On the 16th of June, 1992,

9 did you obtain permission to leave the area?

10 A. Yes, I did obtain a permission to go across the bridge at Soping

11 because I had told them that I had two grandsons on the other side. They

12 told me that I was allowed to leave but that I was supposed to return by

13 7.00 p.m. that same day.

14 Q. You mentioned that you were going to go across the bridge at

15 Soping. Could you describe to the Court specifically what Soping was and

16 could you tell the Court whether you attempted to pass the building

17 Soping.

18 A. I passed by that building because that was the shortest route on

19 my way to the bridge. I told you that they had two guards in camouflage

20 uniforms at intervals of 20 metres. As I came across the two of them,

21 they asked of me where I was going. I said that I was on my way to

22 Soping where I was supposed to report. That was the furthest point

23 before I went across the bridge. As I entered -- as I was entering the

24 Soping building, there was a man on the window motioning to me where I

25 was supposed to enter and as I then entered the building, I was not

Page 12395












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Page 12396

1 allowed to go further.

2 Q. Once you were inside the building, can you describe to the Court

3 what you observed, including who was present. And can you tell the Court

4 what was said to you.

5 A. When I arrived at the door, they said to me that they just wanted

6 to interview me. There were six men sitting behind a large table. In

7 the Soping, there was a warehouse for furniture which had been emptied

8 and inside were about six soldiers in JNA uniforms. And this is where

9 they questioned me, asking me where I was going, who I was going to see.

10 I was carrying some toys for the children and some things they had left

11 behind. They took all this away from me and they took my identity papers

12 and everything else.

13 In another part -- they took me then to another part of the

14 building saying they had something to show me. When I entered there, I

15 saw two men facing the wall and kneeling with their hands behind their

16 backs. They said that I too should kneel between them. And then they

17 started to beat us with a truncheon and they started to kick us in the

18 kidneys.

19 I was the only woman there between those two men. In the

20 meantime, Mrs. Biljana Plavsic arrived. She saw them beating us there

21 because she was some 8 or 10 metres away. There was a table there for

22 them to have breakfast and they just said, "Oh, Biljana is coming." They

23 were hitting me on the head and my nose started to bleed. I turned

24 around and I said, "Can someone give me a handkerchief." And then Madam

25 Biljana said, "Take them away from here, I can't have breakfast here if

Page 12397

1 they are they're here." Then they took us away.

2 They put me in a white Golf and they put the other two in other

3 vehicle and they took us to a warehouse and I think it's also on the

4 territory of new Sarajevo in a part of town called Vraca. There was a

5 big warehouse there for beverages and a place called Dubrovkinja, a kind

6 of shack. And I was there until about 11.00 p.m. and they would beat us

7 there all day. They would beat us for some 20 minutes. Then we would

8 let us alone for a while and they will tell us to think things over. And

9 then they would start over again.

10 In Dubrovkinja I found two other women. One of them was a Muslim

11 and the other one said she had no identity papers. She didn't say what

12 her name was. And she called out each of us in turn and asked us to make

13 statements and so on.

14 Q. Thank you, Witness, for that answer. I just ask for some further

15 very specific answers and that is: You referred to six men in JNA

16 uniforms at the area in Soping. Were they the men that were beating you?

17 A. No, they were very impertinent and I asked them why they were

18 acting like that if they were the army, why weren't they defending us.

19 Why were they allowing them to beat us, because I still wasn't aware that

20 that army had joined the Serbian side.

21 Q. Witness, who were the men beating you? What uniforms were they

22 wearing and what did you learn about them?

23 A. In Dubrovkinja they all had camouflage uniforms. And later on, I

24 learned that they were also from the JNA, but they were wearing

25 camouflage uniforms at the time. I remember these men well and I

Page 12398

1 recognised one of them once on the news programme on SRNA. And I would

2 like to meet him again so that I can ask him whether he had a mother and

3 whether he would have allowed anyone to treat his mother the way they

4 were treating me.

5 Q. In this news programme, was that individual identified and if so,

6 who was he?

7 A. Believe me, I never found out who he was. The man who was

8 meeting me in Dubrovkinja during my questioning. Later on we did learn

9 the names of those others. They were called Pero Biber. Whether these

10 were their real names or nicknames they gave themselves, I couldn't tell

11 you. And they were some kind of mercenaries.

12 Q. Witness 239 if you could bear with me and I apologise for this,

13 but I may have missed your answer. If you could tell me who were the

14 people beating you in Soping and if I ask you to repeat yourself, could

15 you please do so and tell the Court who it was who was actually beating

16 yourself in Soping.

17 A. It was those military men. They were in one building, in one

18 room, and the others who were beating us in the other room, they were

19 wearing camouflage uniforms. We never found out who they were and it was

20 one set of people in Soping and another set of people in Dubrovkinja.

21 Q. Did you obtain any information as to which ethnicity the people

22 who were beating you in Soping were and which ethnicity the people

23 beating you in Dubrovkinja were?

24 A. They were all Orthodox.

25 Q. When you were being driven between Soping and the building you've

Page 12399

1 described as Dubrovkinja, did the driver say anything to you?

2 A. The driver was a young man. He was very handsome and very young.

3 He drove the golf and as we were turning from Vrace to go up there, he

4 said, "I'm so sorry for you. I heard them speaking among themselves.

5 They want to kill you."

6 Q. You referred to two men who were being beaten with you in Soping

7 and they were also taken to Dubrovkinja. What were the names of those

8 men?

9 A. One was called Kerim and he has returned to Grbavica now, he

10 survived. The other was called Kolar and unfortunately, in that terrible

11 place called Lukavica, he died.

12 Q. You have mentioned Lukavica. After Dubrovkinja, where were you

13 taken?

14 A. From Dubrovkinja, they took us to an abandoned shack. It was

15 some sort of warehouse for shoes. You could see shoe sizes there of 38,

16 39, 40, 41 and there was a concrete floor, and we only got one blanket

17 each. The room was very small and there were 27 of us inside so we

18 couldn't lie down straight. We had to sort of twist around one behind

19 the other in order to be able to lie down.

20 Q. You've referred to being detained in an abandoned shack. What

21 distance was this shack from the barracks at Lukavica?

22 A. It was inside the Lukavica barracks compound, but near the top

23 because the barracks consisted of large buildings and this was a kind of

24 bungalow. It wasn't made of wood. There was some mortar but it also had

25 windows with bars on it. It looked like an abandoned warehouse. I don't

Page 12400

1 know how to explain it to you.

2 Q. At any time whilst you were detained at Lukavica, were you taken

3 back to the building Dubrovkinja?

4 A. They took us there every day. We couldn't go to the toilet

5 except in the morning when they unlocked the door and then they would

6 tell us what we had to do that day. They had a kind of improvised toilet

7 made of wood it was outdoors. In the morning they would unlock the door

8 and let us go there one by one and they kept saying, "Hurry up, hurry

9 up." And then they would tell us what we were to do that day.

10 They would take us to Dubrovkinja to ask us more questions and

11 then -- they always asked us questions that had nothing to do with us and

12 when we didn't answer, they would beat us again. And that's how it was

13 from day-to-day.

14 Q. Whilst you were at Lukavica, did you engage in any work?

15 A. I did the same kind of work the men did. I had a spade; I

16 cleared up around the kitchen; I picked up papers, litter around the

17 barracks. We had nothing to do with their staff. We just cleaned. I

18 cleaned around the barracks and the men were taken away to chop wood,

19 bring the wood back, and things like that.

20 Q. You mentioned that one of the people you were detained with, that

21 is Kolar died whilst you were at Lukavica. Can you describe to the Court

22 the circumstances of his death.

23 A. The first time I saw him in Soping on that day, on the 16th, he

24 had already been beaten up. When we met at night in that shack, well

25 even before his first beating he had told them that he had a heart attack

Page 12401

1 before and that he begged not to be beaten but they didn't pay any

2 attention. And then when they beat him the second or the third time he

3 kept saying, "I have survived a heart attack. Please don't do this." He

4 was a very small, slightly built man, rather frail. And once they took

5 us around to the kitchen to empty out some large containers, and they

6 didn't give us a lot of water to drink. That day was very hot and then

7 they opened a what do you call it, it's a kind of pump, I don't know how

8 to describe it, where a lot of water comes out at once. They opened that

9 for us and they allowed us to wash our faces and to drink water and then

10 they let us go back to our shack.

11 On the way back, we were always escorted by a guard and as we

12 were going back, he sat down on the grass by the pump and he said, "I

13 can't go any further." And then the escort made him go on. We were not

14 allowed to talk among ourselves as we were walking along but we managed

15 to get him to the shack somehow, to support him. We tried to cool him

16 down, give him some fresh air. We put him by the window, but it was all

17 of no use. He just sat leaning against the wall and then he started

18 croaking. You could hear the death rattle and he died. And in the

19 morning, when they opened the door, we said that he had died. Then the

20 chief one simply said, "Write down that he died of natural causes."

21 Q. What did his body appear like when it was lying there? Can you

22 describe it.

23 A. He was all black in the face and we asked what we were to do with

24 him and they said that we should dig a grave behind the shack and bury

25 him there and that's where we buried him, early in the morning. We

Page 12402

1 buried him there and about five years later, his son was looking for him

2 because he was listed as missing and our camp had not been registered

3 anywhere so he couldn't find out what had happened to his father. And he

4 advertised and then I told him where his father was buried and what he

5 had been wearing and -- he had a Seiko watch with a blue face. And the

6 people went and they exhumed him there and they found him. So he was

7 given a proper burial.

8 Q. You said that he was black in the face. Did you have information

9 as to why he was black in the face?

10 A. Well, probably -- those people who were with me said that all

11 heart patients when they die, they have blood, the blood goes to their

12 faces and that's how they look.

13 Q. Whilst you were at Lukavica and you were engaging in those

14 cleaning duties, did you clean the outside of the building at Lukavica?

15 A. No, they didn't let us leave the barracks compound. It was only

16 on one or two occasions when they took us by car down to the Miljacka

17 because there were some of their soldiers who had been killed on our

18 side, on the federal side.

19 Q. I'm sorry, I think we may have had a disconnect in the terms in

20 which I expressed the question. What I meant to ask you is that within

21 the barracks compound, did you perform cleaning duties outside?

22 A. Yes, yes, we cleaned outside. We didn't enter the barracks

23 buildings.

24 Q. On one occasion whilst you were cleaning outside, did you see any

25 vehicle or other machine arrive at the barracks?

Page 12403

1 A. Yes, General MacKenzie was due to arrive and then they would take

2 us to clean around the barracks compound and then they would put out a

3 red carpet for them. On that day around 11.00, a helicopter landed. Mr.

4 Radovan, Mr. Koljevic, Mr. Krajisnik and Biljana Plavsic were inside.

5 Q. How far away were you from the helicopter when it arrived?

6 A. About 15 metres away, two or three men and me. I was the only

7 woman who had not been exchanged. I was the only woman left in that

8 shack, all the others had already been exchanged.

9 Q. Those two or three men and yourself, how did you appear? What

10 did you look like?

11 A. I had been beaten up. I had bruises. My leg was injured. We'd

12 all been beaten. They stopped beating us only two or three days before I

13 left. They beat us every day before that.

14 Q. You mentioned the names of four people that were inside the

15 helicopter. Did they remain inside the helicopter or did they get out of

16 the helicopter?

17 A. They got out of the helicopter and they went inside the barracks.

18 Q. And how far was it from the helicopter to the barracks and where

19 were you and the other two or three men you were detained with positioned

20 relative to those four people as they went into the barracks?

21 A. We were about 15 or 20 metres away, approximately, and the

22 helicopter was maybe 30 metres away. We didn't dare look at them long.

23 I was the only one who raised my head to look and the guard hit me on the

24 head so that I couldn't look. But they all managed -- we all managed to

25 take a look.

Page 12404












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12405

1 Q. When you say you raised your head to look, in what position were

2 you when you raised your head?

3 A. I was looking to my right towards the place where the helicopter

4 was landing.

5 Q. When you took a look at them, what did you observe about them?

6 In which direction were they looking or anything else?

7 A. I didn't have time to look long because even when we were moving

8 along in a line, we weren't allowed to look around. But we were in a

9 kind of little depression and the helicopter landed on a flat patch of

10 land near the barracks and that's how we were able to see. But I'm sure

11 that they could have seen us. I'm absolutely sure of that, if they

12 looked in our direction then they would have seen us.

13 Q. On the 30th of June, 1992, did General MacKenzie come to the

14 Lukavica barracks?

15 A. I'm very grateful to General MacKenzie and to God for my

16 survival. He took me out of that barracks because twice I had been taken

17 for an exchange and then was not exchanged and was taken back.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, I'd like to ask one clarifying

19 question.

20 When you described the persons in relation to the helicopter, you

21 said Mr. Radovan.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Karadzic.

23 JUDGE ORIE: You meant to say Mr. Radovan Karadzic.

24 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.

25 MR. MARGETTS: You say that you were grateful to General

Page 12406

1 MacKenzie and he took you out of the barracks and you mentioned that you

2 had been taken for an exchange on two occasions. Was it the case that

3 other persons that you were detained with were taken for exchanges whilst

4 you were detained?

5 A. They took us in buses. A bus would arrive and they would call

6 out a list of names at the door of people who were to be exchanged and on

7 the first occasion, it was in front of the Assembly building, the

8 Presidency, that a woman was exchanged and three men. The second time,

9 we were at the small post office at Vrbanja and four men were exchanged

10 there. But when there was an exchange, they would send from a camp

11 either from Pale or from somewhere else. They would send people to be

12 exchanged and then they would add us from that shack in order to make up

13 the numbers so that the numbers would be equal on both sides.

14 Q. Returning to General MacKenzie and the fact that he was able to

15 obtain your release from Lukavica, can you describe to the Court in what

16 circumstances you first met him and any conversation or comments that he

17 made to you or you made to him.

18 A. I didn't know how to talk to him. It was already dusk. He was

19 leaving the barracks. He was alone. And he was passing very close --

20 passing near us and he saw that I was all black and blue, that I was all

21 bruised. And he had an interpreter with him so through the interpreter,

22 he asked me what was the matter. I told him I was in a camp here and I

23 had been beaten up. And there was an APC there and he told me to get in.

24 And then the guard ran up and said, "No, no, we can't let her go.

25 We can't let her go." And he just made a gesture with his hand and he

Page 12407

1 said, "I am responsible for this. I am taking this woman away."

2 There were two men standing close to me and I knelt down in front

3 of him and I clasped my hands and I begged him to take the two of them as

4 well. And he did. He took all of us and took us in the APC and took us

5 to the Inzinjering post office.

6 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Witness 239.

7 Your Honour, I'd like to present the witness with a number of

8 documents and ask some questions about some documents. Also I just have

9 another question about an unrelated matter. So it may be more

10 appropriate if we break now if that's convenient to the Court or

11 alternatively I can present the first two documents.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Usually we have our first break at a quarter to

13 4.00, which would give us another 20 minutes.

14 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I apologise. I'm working on the

15 basis of the morning schedule and obviously I will proceed with the

16 documents I wish to present.

17 If the witness could be presented with the next two exhibits

18 which are dated 30 June, the first one, and the second one is 11 June.

19 And they're marked numbers four and five on the Prosecution exhibit list.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

21 THE REGISTRAR: The document of the 30th of June will be

22 Prosecution Exhibit P629 and the document dated 11 June will be

23 Prosecution Exhibit P630.


25 Q. First looking at the document P629. It's dated 30th of June,

Page 12408

1 1992 and in paragraph 4, and it's marked to have been from MacKenzie to

2 another recipient in UNPROFOR and there's a reference at paragraph 4 in

3 this document wherein MacKenzie writes "I proceeded to Lukavica to see

4 Professor Koljevic. Colonel Tolimir and Colonel Sipcic were also there."

5 Witness 239, could you please confirm to the Court that it was on

6 the 30th of June when you met General MacKenzie at Lukavica.

7 A. Yes, he took me out. Of course I saw him. And in the APC he

8 asked us to sing a song that he liked, "The March on the River Drina."

9 MR. MARGETTS: I've finished with that document. If we would move

10 to the document dated 11 June 1992 and this is again a memorandum from

11 General MacKenzie.

12 Q. And in the first paragraph he refers to a prolonged visit in

13 Lukavica and he says he had the opportunity to meet Mrs. Plavsic. He

14 says, General Mladic was not in town and his whereabouts were unknown but

15 he would try to meet him tomorrow. Mrs. Plavsic pledged that the SDS

16 would support the agreement and it appears that it's an agreement in

17 relation to the cease-fire.

18 Toward the end of that paragraph, it states that, "She," being

19 Mrs. Plavsic, "indicated that she would attempt to convince the local

20 commanders of our honourable intentions."

21 Witness, I present that to you and just would like you to

22 indicate to the Court the date upon which you saw Mrs. Plavsic in the

23 company of army personnel at Soping.

24 A. It was the 16th of June, the day I was taken to the camp.

25 Q. Thank you, Witness.

Page 12409

1 MR. MARGETTS: I'd like now for those documents to be taken from

2 the witness and if she could be presented with the next three documents,

3 that's number 6, 7 and 8 on the list of the Prosecution and we'll deal

4 with those documents in order.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 12410

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 12411











11 Pages 12411-12418 redacted. Private session.















Page 12419

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 239, we just returned in open session. You

16 will now be cross-examined by Ms. Loukas who is counsel for the Defence.

17 If any question would need to give any data that could identify yourself,

18 please ask me and we'll turn into private session. If Ms. Loukas feels

19 that the questions are likely to elicit from you such information, she

20 will ask for private session so that then even the content of your

21 testimony is unknown to the outside world.

22 Ms. Loukas, you may proceed.

23 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Thank you, Your Honour.

24 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas:

25 Q. Now, madam, good afternoon.

Page 12420

1 A. Good afternoon.

2 Q. Now, madam, you've given evidence that you saw Mr. Momcilo

3 Krajisnik get off a helicopter in the company of others which landed --

4 this helicopter landed in the compound at Lukavica. Now, Witness, Mr.

5 Krajisnik did not go there and I put it to you that you are mistaken

6 about this.

7 A. I mentioned the names of other inmates who were with me and they

8 confirmed that they personally saw Mr. Krajisnik.

9 Q. Now, Witness, can you give us the names of these people that you

10 say also saw this?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, is this something for private session

12 or ...

13 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I think that the witness herself

14 can be the best judge of that at this point.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the witness might not be. I mean she has,

16 I take it, relatively not much experience in these situations.

17 Ms. Loukas is asking you about the names of the other inmates

18 who, as you said, confirmed that they personally saw Mr. Krajisnik. My

19 first question would in that respect be: Did you not personally see him?

20 You said the others did see him personally.

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I myself saw him. There was a

23 young man with me by the name of Dado. I know that he was at the Pale

24 camp and was then transferred to Lukavica. That was one young man. This

25 Dado knows the other young man who was a student from Hadzici and whose

Page 12421

1 other name I do not know.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Ms. Loukas, please proceed.

3 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. Now, so Witness, you're not prepared to allow for the possibility

5 that you are mistaken about seeing Mr. Krajisnik there?

6 A. I am sure that I am not mistaken because I saw Mr. Krajisnik

7 earlier on on the TV and I am certain that I did not mistake him for

8 somebody else.

9 Q. Okay. Now, Witness, I'm going to give you a piece of paper and I

10 want you to basically draw a diagram of where you were, where the

11 helicopter was, and the main land features or building features around;

12 do you understand?

13 A. Yes, I do.

14 MS. LOUKAS: For ease of reference, Your Honour, if that might be

15 placed on the ELMO so that all in the courtroom can see it.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, your microphone is on.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, of course it can be put on the ELMO. On

19 the basis of what we see, the Chamber wonders whether that could lead to

20 anything perhaps else than establishing that this witness is not one of

21 the greatest artists of this world. It's rather simplistic, very

22 schematic. But if you think that you could put questions on the basis of

23 this, of course you are allowed to do so.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I think the witness is probably a

25 better artist than I am, but perhaps we don't need to put it on the ELMO

Page 12422












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 12423

1 because there's more questions I need to ask in respect of the sketch so

2 if it can be placed again before the witness.



5 Q. Now, Witness, just in relation to what you've -- what you have

6 there in your sketch. To the far right, you have the word for barracks;

7 is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

10 MS. LOUKAS: I'm sorry, I just heard the interpreter say

11 microphone please.

12 JUDGE ORIE: She might have addressed me, Ms. Loukas.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Okay.

14 Q. Now, -- and moving along, you've of course written there

15 "helicopter," and then you've written the word "me" which is of course

16 you; correct?

17 A. No. In this depression, I put "we." That's me and the two

18 others who were with me. The helicopter is on this straight line and the

19 barracks is on the right-hand side. There were two or three steps there

20 and that's where the entrance to the barracks was.

21 Q. Now, describe this depression. How deep was it?

22 A. How do I know how deep it was? Maybe a metre and a half. It

23 couldn't have been more.

24 Q. So you would tell the Court that you were in a depression a metre

25 and a half, approximately, to your knowledge; is that correct?

Page 12424

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be put on the ELMO anyhow.

2 A. Approximately, yes.


4 Q. Now, Witness, so the depression we're talking about there, I

5 think I asked you the question -- yes, that was my question: "So you

6 would tell the Court that you were in a depression a metre and a half

7 approximately to your knowledge; is that correct?"

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, before we continue, I now see a sketch

11 in front of me, a depression, I take it, that that's a point which is

12 slightly lower than the surrounding area, and I see the kasarna. If I

13 take this sketch literally, the Kasarna would be deep in the ground.

14 What we are dealing with is a sketch which is in one respect

15 vertical, how do you call that, vertical -- and at the same time, as far

16 as the kasarna is concerned, it looks as if it's a view from above. At

17 least I take it.

18 It certainly does not assist the Chamber to ask questions about a

19 sketch which contains two totally different elements and then -- unless

20 you would say these are two sketches but then there's no relation between

21 the helicopter, the "we", the depression, and the barracks anymore.

22 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, that is precisely what my

23 questions are directed towards because obviously the evidence will be a

24 combination of the document that's now on the ELMO that has been drawn by

25 the witness and further questions directed to her physical

Page 12425

1 representation.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but Ms. Loukas, this sketch which is on the

3 ELMO at this moment is, from what I understand from the last questions,

4 is something one could not possibly understand, deal with, because it

5 combines two totally different matters. It is as if -- if you have a --

6 I don't know what's the word in English.

7 MR. MARGETTS: Vertical or horizontal axes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: If there is a vertical axis, you have a you have a

9 piece of furniture, you make a vertical axis, you cut it in two you

10 describe that that how it is and you combine that from what you see above

11 in that room which is totally impossible. So therefore, I do not mind at

12 all if you ask questions to the witness but not unless you could explain

13 to the Chamber that this is something different. But this contains two

14 matters that could not be combined and as I said before, it might be the

15 limits of the capacities of the witness rather than anything else that we

16 see on the paper at this moment.

17 Please proceed.

18 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour. Perhaps we're at cross

19 purposes here in a sense. I take on board what Your Honour has indicated

20 but I do have some more questions in relation, obviously, to this topic

21 which I propose to proceed with.

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Topic, fine; sketch, no.

24 MS. LOUKAS: Okay. So Your Honours do not wish any reference to

25 the sketch from now on.

Page 12426


2 MS. LOUKAS: Okay.

3 Q. Now, just in relation, madam, to what you've drawn --

4 MS. LOUKAS: If I can just have one more question on the topic,

5 Your Honour.

6 Q. What is -- what do the two vertical lines represent where you've

7 written "kasarna"?

8 A. That is a broad asphalt road leading to the barracks from the

9 street. When you approach the barracks from the town, this is the route

10 you take from Sarajevo, it's on the left-hand side. As we were on the

11 other side where it says "we," we were coming from our shack and they put

12 us in this depression and the helicopter was standing on the flat area.

13 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, if you could just let the Court know

14 what the distance was between where you were in the depression and the

15 barracks.

16 A. Well, I told you before. About 30 metres, approximately 30 to 40

17 metres.

18 Q. Thank you, Witness. And the distance between where you were in

19 the depression and the helicopter?

20 A. I can't tell you. The wind was blowing and I know that it messed

21 up my hair, the wind from the helicopter, because the helicopter was

22 standing there and there was wind blowing at us and it messed up my hair

23 so it couldn't have been far.

24 Q. So you're not able to put a number on the distance there?

25 A. Believe me, I don't know. I told you they didn't let us look

Page 12427

1 around. We could only look down in front of us. I lifted up my head for

2 a moment, for half a minute, and I had no idea that I was supposed to

3 measure the distance.

4 Q. Okay. And it was in that moment that you lifted up your head

5 that you say you saw Mr. Krajisnik; correct?

6 A. I had an opportunity to recognise them all because it wasn't the

7 first time I had seen those faces.

8 Q. Yes, I understand what you're saying, Witness, but, of course,

9 what my question was directed to was Mr. Krajisnik, of course. And it

10 was in that moment that you lifted up your head that you say you

11 identified Mr. Krajisnik; correct?

12 A. I certainly did. About a year before the war, his face was on

13 the television all the time so I couldn't mistake him for someone else.

14 Q. Now, madam, you've indicated that a year before the war, his face

15 was on the television all the time. I take it you're referring there to

16 the -- during the general elections in 1990; is that correct?

17 A. He was among the leading people on the Serbian side.

18 Q. Now, Witness, I just want to take you back to the statement you

19 gave the ICTY on the 27th of March, 2001. You've indicated there in

20 paragraph 5 and I can read it out for your benefit:

21 "I could remember the newly-formed party such as the SDA and the

22 HDZ campaigning in Sarajevo during the time the general elections in

23 1992. I could also remember Karadzic and Krajisnik addressing the people

24 on TV during this time of the elections."

25 Now, I take it obviously what you were telling the Prosecutors

Page 12428

1 was correct, that it was during the election campaign that you saw Mr.

2 Krajisnik?

3 A. The whole town was covered with posters bearing pictures of

4 Radovan Karadzic, Krajisnik, and then the people from the HDZ and the

5 other parties.

6 Q. And this was during the elections you say, madam.

7 A. It was sometime in 1990.

8 MS. LOUKAS: If I might have a moment.

9 Q. Now, Witness, Mr. Krajisnik did not take a front role during the

10 elections of 1990 and there were no posters of him during the election.

11 Do you still maintain that - and I take it you do - that you identified

12 Mr. Krajisnik on that day in Lukavica?

13 A. Certainly I abide by what I said.

14 Q. Okay. Now, in relation to what you say you saw on television,

15 Witness, during the election campaign, how many times did you see Mr.

16 Krajisnik on television during the election campaign addressing other

17 people?

18 A. Whenever there was an Assembly, I think he chaired it. I don't

19 recall well now, but I know that he opened the sessions of the Assembly

20 and that he chaired them and that's how I remember him.

21 Q. Now, madam, my question was in relation to the election campaign

22 where you've said in your statement that "I could also remember Karadzic

23 and Krajisnik addressing the people on TV during this time of the

24 elections." That's what my question is asking you about. And my

25 question was in relation to what you saw on television during the

Page 12429

1 election campaign, how many times did you see Mr. Krajisnik on television

2 during the election campaign addressing people?

3 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I have no objection to questions

4 proceeding in relation to the election campaign specifically but I

5 anticipate some confusion could be generated. If we look at page 5 of

6 the statement, you can see that there's a reference in the second

7 paragraph that may be helpful in this context.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Is the second paragraph number 18?

9 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That's nicely black in my ...

11 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we do have a copy that does not have

12 any redaction, if that could be provided to the Chamber.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that this was the one for 89(F) prepared

14 or ...

15 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, I'm surprised that that paragraph is -- yes,

16 that would be black. Yes, Your Honour, that's correct.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I wonder whether this paragraph is such that it

18 justified the intervention at this moment. But let's --

19 Ms. Loukas, you have seen that there is some further

20 specification on page 5.

21 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour, but I was specifically asking

22 about the general elections.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.


25 Q. If I might go back to the question.

Page 12430

1 JUDGE ORIE: How often the witness saw -- during this period.

2 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: How often the witness saw Mr. Krajisnik on

4 television.

5 MS. LOUKAS: I just wanted to ask exactly the same question, Your

6 Honour.

7 Q. It's just in relation to that, what you said in your statement

8 was, "I could also remember Karadzic and Krajisnik addressing the people

9 on TV during this time of the election."

10 My question to you was what you saw on television during the

11 election campaign: "How many times did you see Mr. Krajisnik on

12 television during the election campaign addressing people: That was my

13 question to you.

14 A. I never thought I would need to count the number of times I saw

15 him. I never thought I would ever need this information. But I'm

16 certain that I did see him many times.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us an estimate. Of course no one

18 could know that the question would be put to you some 15 years later,

19 approximately. Could you give us an impression on how many times you saw

20 Mr. Krajisnik not chairing the Assembly or something like that, but

21 directly addressing the public through the television during these

22 elections or at the time of these elections. Could you give us an idea

23 on whether that was two times, five times, ten times, 50 times, rough

24 guess.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe twice at the outset that I

Page 12431












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13 English transcripts.













Page 12432

1 actually noticed him precisely. But I know that when Radovan Karadzic

2 was speaking, whenever he was saying that the Muslim state would vanish

3 and so on and so forth, Mr. Krajisnik was always there supporting him.

4 JUDGE ORIE: During the television programmes, Mr. Krajisnik was

5 there supporting Mr. Karadzic?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was always sitting in the front

7 row when Radovan Karadzic was making a speech and applauding. I'm sure

8 that's how it was.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Are you now talking about Assembly sessions or

10 meetings that were televised?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know when the main Assembly was

12 held, when Radovan Karadzic said that the Muslim state would vanish,

13 that's what I remember now. And believe me, I can't remember the other

14 times.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I am -- I was asking, and these are different

16 type of television programmes, how often Mr. Krajisnik appeared, if you

17 remember, whether and how many times he appeared on television directly

18 addressing the viewers. That means not addressing a meeting which was

19 televised.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.

22 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. Now, Witness, going back to that occasion when you say you saw

24 Mr. Krajisnik, what were you actually doing at that point?

25 A. What do you mean, when? During those sessions or when I was in

Page 12433

1 the camp?

2 Q. That's fair enough, Witness. We're talking about that occasion

3 in which you say you saw Mr. Krajisnik emerging from a helicopter.

4 A. I was cleaning the litter in that depression because they didn't

5 want so much as a scrap of paper to be seen in the compound when they

6 were arriving.

7 Q. Okay. And were you -- in what position was your body? Were you

8 lying down, were you standing up, what were you doing?

9 A. I was bending over.

10 Q. You were bending over. And when you say you caught sight of Mr.

11 Krajisnik for this moment, did you catch the front of his face or the

12 side of his face?

13 A. I don't remember those details now, but in the camp, we spent the

14 entire night telling each other about how we'd seen all four of them.

15 Whether he was in the middle or to the side I can't recall now, but I am

16 sure that I did see him.

17 Q. Now, what's your estimate of how far you were from Mr. Krajisnik

18 when you say you saw him?

19 A. I could see well. It might have been 15 to 20 metres.

20 Q. And when you saw him, were you lying down or standing up in the

21 depression that you've spoken of?

22 A. No one in the camp was able to lie down. Even when we were

23 sleeping, we were more sitting than lying down.

24 Q. So you weren't lying down; correct?

25 A. Where do you mean I wasn't lying down?

Page 12434

1 Q. When you saw Mr. Krajisnik.

2 A. Well, I would have been sunbathing, not collecting litter if I'd

3 been lying down.

4 Q. So you were definitely standing up when you saw Mr. Krajisnik?

5 A. I told you, I was a little bent over.

6 Q. You were a little bit bent over, but you were not lying down;

7 correct?

8 A. Correct; I wasn't lying down.

9 Q. So at all times, you were standing when you saw Mr. Krajisnik for

10 this moment; correct?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please come to your point, Ms. Loukas.

12 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, asked and answered.


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Page 12435

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Page 12436











11 Pages 12436-12455 redacted. Private session.















Page 12456

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7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to invite -- Ms. Loukas, you didn't give

11 any signal to go into open session again. If there are portions that you

12 consider would be suitable for the public to see and read, then you are

13 invited to give us those suggestions so that we can make the trial as

14 public as possible.

15 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I agree. I think it's very important

16 to ensure that the trial is public. And I think that -- of course we

17 have to balance going in and out on a fairly regular basis and the

18 logistics there. But I'm sure Mr. Margetts and I can come to some

19 agreement to what can stay in or be taken out.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Just as we have seen that on, I think, other

21 suggestions I made already in respect of other witnesses, the Chamber

22 would very much appreciate if the parties could agree on what portions

23 could be public and what portions should remain private.

24 I've got one decision to deliver. Are there any other procedural

25 issues?

Page 12457

1 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, just the exhibits for the witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have to deal with that.

3 MR. MARGETTS: And secondly, just if Madam Registrar could read

4 into the record these additional contextual documents that I referred to

5 at the opening of today's session.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Document -- these documents are in relation to

7 KRAJ 073. Two exhibits, P529, tab 406 and P292, KID 31143.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 And now the exhibits for Witness 239.

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, the sketch. You did not tender it.

12 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I think in view of the fact that

13 the sketch was referred to during the witness's evidence, I think it's

14 important that it also become an exhibit.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it could also be marked for identification so

16 that we know what the witness looked at. But if you prefer to have it in

17 evidence, then ...

18 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I'm not married to the sketch as

19 it were, but I think it's -- it's probably important that it is an

20 exhibit in view of the fact that it was referred to in the evidence.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So therefore it's tendered.

22 Madam Registrar, the sketch with one helicopter and a kasarna.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Will be Defence Exhibit D42.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

25 Then Madam Registrar, we do have all the documents, we do it the

Page 12458

1 short way which means that -- if you could give us the -- I think we

2 start with P628, under seal; then we have P629, 630, 631, under seal;

3 632, under seal; 633, under seal; the record of an interview was

4 number ...

5 MR. MARGETTS: P634, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Also under seal. And the ICTY witness statement is

7 not tendered, although still on the list. So then P628 up until and

8 including P634 are admitted into evidence just as. Since I didn't hear

9 any objections against the sketch and that was D42 is admitted as well.

10 Any further -- no further matters?

11 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just briefly, if I may. The next

12 witness, of course, will be called tomorrow morning, I imagine, or is it

13 tomorrow afternoon.

14 JUDGE ORIE: It's tomorrow afternoon.

15 MS. LOUKAS: The next witness will be called tomorrow afternoon.

16 Now, I think that's the last witness for this week.

17 Now, Your Honour, I am seeking that perhaps the matter be dealt

18 with in such a way that there is the evidence in chief and the

19 cross-examination so perhaps we could continue with the cross-examination

20 on the Friday, if that were possible. As Your Honour is aware, I am

21 dealing with all four witnesses this week and I need some time to get on

22 top of the material and, Your Honour, that would be most helpful to the

23 Defence if Your Honour could allow for that possibility.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, are you dealing with the next witness

25 or ...

Page 12459

1 MR. MARGETTS: No, Mr. Gaynor is dealing with the next witness

2 so -- he is present. I could consult with him.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps Ms. Loukas before we decide, that you try to

4 get in touch with Mr. Gaynor and see whether there's any objection.

5 At the same time, the Chamber, although we agreed to start with

6 the witness of today only today and where we agreed that we would start

7 only tomorrow with the next witness, in the given situation, we think

8 these to be wise decisions. At the same time, the Chamber is not that

9 happy with this situation to exist.

10 MS. LOUKAS: Well nor am I, I must say.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would rather have more witnesses this

12 week.

13 MS. LOUKAS: Is that the point Your Honour is making? No no no.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, you see we are not quite happy with the

15 situation where it's just a matter of choosing where we have the time

16 gaps since the Chamber, of course, would prefer to hear the evidence with

17 -- without any interruptions, preferably. So therefore, it might be a

18 bit of a scheduling problem. I do not know exactly what the reasons are

19 but at least the Prosecution is invited to seek full use of the available

20 time in court.

21 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I think the only comment the Court was

22 inviting was acknowledgment that we heard the Court and we'll do our best

23 to fulfill those expectations as we've been doing. I appreciate it

24 wasn't wholly successful this week but we'll redouble our efforts.

25 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. Just in relation to that, of

Page 12460

1 course, as Your Honour has indicated, the Prosecution asked for some

2 indulgence in relation to starting this particular witness today as

3 opposed to going right through yesterday. And I'm seeking the same

4 indulgence, Your Honour. And I think in the circumstances the Defence

5 finds itself in - and I take on board the comments Your Honour's made in

6 regard to the Prosecution - but Your Honour is well aware that the

7 Prosecution will have four witnesses this week and three different

8 counsel and I have to deal with all four.

9 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, obviously we accept that it was on

10 our initiative that the witness started today but that was a matter with

11 the witness and her arrival rather than any matter related to counsel.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I did understand that there was also a matter

13 of health involved.

14 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.

15 I just would like to indicate to the Court since that matter has

16 arisen that I did actually ask the witness about the health issue

17 yesterday and I was in fact informed that she had not had the operation

18 due to some circumstances arising. But she is scheduled for the

19 operation and it was in fact -- and I apologise to the Court for this --

20 some misunderstanding between the investigator who was telephoning

21 through the interpreter and the witness. Nevertheless, the witness was a

22 67-year-old woman who had only just arrived the evening before.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It's not necessary to go through it all again. We

24 accepted that; the Defence didn't oppose it. The main point is if we

25 have 25 hours available a week in court, we should use our court time to

Page 12461

1 the extent possible.

2 Are there any other procedural issues? If not, I'll deliver one

3 decision. That's the decision on the Prosecution's motion to call two

4 new viva voce witnesses, the decision on the Prosecution's motion to call

5 two new viva voce witnesses with the codes 679 and 680. This motion was

6 filed on the 8th of April, 2005. It was supplemented on the 12th of

7 April with the potential witness's signed statements.

8 This morning, the Defence informed the Chamber, through the legal

9 staff, that it has no submissions to make in response to the motion.

10 In support of the motion, the Prosecution states that the two

11 witnesses are relatively well-placed insiders whose expected evidence is

12 of direct relevance to the core issues of the case. The motion gives

13 reasons for not calling the two potential witnesses earlier. The main

14 reason is lack of cooperation, until recently, by Serbia-Montenegro,

15 formerly the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. According to the

16 Prosecution's explanation, Serbia-Montenegro had not issued waivers for

17 the two persons despite repeated requests from the Prosecution during a

18 period of almost two years. Waivers were finally issued in October 2004.

19 The witnesses' statements were taken in the course of the period from

20 November 2004 to March 2005.

21 The Chamber finds that the Prosecution has given a satisfactory

22 explanation as to why Witnesses 679 and 680 were not added to the

23 original witness list prior to this time. It furthermore finds that the

24 two witnesses are of sufficient importance to justify adding them to the

25 witness list at this advanced stage in the proceedings. The Chamber has

Page 12462

1 taken into consideration the cooperative attitude of the Defence, which

2 has not opposed the motion. We have also taken into consideration the

3 Prosecution's remark that, and I quote, "The proposed testimony,"

4 relating to these two witnesses, "is part of a process which has resulted

5 in a very considerable reduction in the number of Prosecution witnesses

6 to be called."

7 Therefore, the Trial Chamber grants the motion.

8 We'll adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, same courtroom.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.52 p.m.

10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 21st day of

11 April, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.