1 Tuesday, 26 April 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.12 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Mr. Registrar, could you
6 please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. First, a question, does
10 your laptop now function, Mr. Krajisnik?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can see Your Honour that you are
12 the person most familiar with laptops but mine is up to no good. It seems
13 to be breaking down all the time. But apparently it's working for the
14 time being so we'll see.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Krajisnik, although laptops are no
16 fundamental procedural right, at the same time the Chamber was glad to
17 wait for a couple of more minutes to see that it would function at this
18 moment. We are glad that you have it available.
19 Mr. Margetts, are you ready to call your next witness?
20 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. That's KRAJ 671 Izet Mehinagic.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, no protective measures. Madam Usher, could you
22 please escort Mr. Mehinagic into the courtroom.
23 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, while the witness is being brought in
24 just as an addendum to the -- the laptop issue, which is something I think
25 we may need to take up with the Trial Chamber at some point, the -- we've
1 received magnificent assistance from the audio visual department in
2 relation -- to try to ensure that it works, but there is a problem in
3 terms of the computer havening been set up by a different department, and
4 there are password issues and what have you, so it seems to me there may
5 need to be some coordination between them, Your Honour, and it may need
6 the assistance of the Trial Chamber in that regard to ensure ...
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you fail to establish such a coordination and
8 if the assistance of the registry in this respect would not help out
9 sufficiently, then of course you can address the Chamber and we'll try to
10 assist you as good as we can.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Although this Chamber is not composed of whiz kids.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 WITNESS: IZET MEHINAGIC
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Mehinagic.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: From your answer, I understand you hear me in a
19 language you understand. Before you give evidence in this court, the
20 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration
21 that you will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
22 The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher. May I invite
23 you to make that solemn declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Mehinagic. Please be seated.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mehinagic, you will first be examined by
4 Mr. Margetts, counsel for the Prosecution.
5 Mr. Margetts, you may proceed.
6 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we are utilising the 89(F) procedure
7 with this witness and, as the first exhibit, I would like to introduce the
8 ICTY statement which has been redacted and that is the statement of 25
9 April 2003.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, if I understand well, the four lines on
11 page 2 have been taken out and the line we discussed yesterday on page 3
12 have been taken out.
13 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: So we spent 20 minutes on a matter that could have
15 been solved by the parties, which was a waste of time looking at the
16 result at this moment.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, could we have an exhibit number for
19 the statement.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: The 89(F) ICTY witness statement dated 25th April,
22 2003 would be given Prosecution Exhibit P644 and the translation would be
24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, may I proceed with the reading of the
25 89(F) summary.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may -- I've got one question, however,
2 there's always a problem, what's the original and what's the translation.
3 Could you help us out because otherwise -- is the B/C/S the original or is
4 the English the original.
5 MR. MARGETTS: The English is the original.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So 644.1 would be the translation. Please proceed.
7 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours, the 89(F) summary of the evidence
8 that will be admitted in the exhibit P644 is as follows:
9 When the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina broke out in early
10 1992, Mr. Mehinagic was a leading member of the Zvornik community. At
11 this time, he was in charge of one of the largest construction projects in
12 the former Yugoslavia, the construction of the Tuzla-Zvornik railroad. He
13 continues to occupy high office today, being council to a federal minister
14 in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
15 In his capacity as general manager for the construction project,
16 Mr. Mehinagic met Momcilo Krajisnik in early 1991. He met with Krajisnik
17 and other high-level members of the Bosnian and Herzegovinian government
18 to promote the project and ensure that adequate funds were allocated to
19 the project.
20 The witness met General Milutin Kukanjac during the 1980s and
21 other prominent members of the JNA including General Savo Jankovic. He
22 maintained frequent contacts with Jankovic through 1991 and early 1992.
23 The witness met Colonel Radoslav Tacic in around January or
24 February of 1992. Tacic was the commander of an armoured brigade. By the
25 end of March 1992, an armoured-mechanised battalion commanded by Dragan
1 Obrenovic and subordinate to Tacic was stationed in Zvornik.
2 From early January 1992, it's Serbs in Zvornik boycotted the
3 Assembly sessions in Zvornik. In meetings with local Serb leaders, they
4 repeatedly stated that Serbs and Muslims could not live together.
5 Mr. Mehinagic considered this idea to be preposterous. Zvornik was a
6 successful business-minded municipality and its success was the result of
7 joint hard work of Serbs and Muslims.
8 On the 8th of April, 1992, Zvornik was attacked. The witness
9 describes meetings he had with local members of the SDA, General Savo
10 Jankovic, and other high-ranking military officials in the week prior to
11 the attack on Zvornik. During the course of the meetings, Mr. Mehinagic
12 discussed means by which peace could be maintained and the people of
13 Zvornik may be defended.
14 When Zvornik was attacked, Mr. Mehinagic sent a telegram to
15 General Savo Jankovic of the JNA pleading with him to protect the
16 endangered population from a catastrophe such as they have never
17 experienced in history. He stated that he sent the dispatch as a cry to
18 heaven and an appeal to act in the line with the most illustrious
19 tradition of the JNA and the most sacred moral norms of our peoples.
20 Prior to the attacks, there had been various meetings between the
21 leaders of the Muslims in Zvornik and the leaders of the Serbs. At a meet
22 are of the Assembly held on 3 April 1992, the session was discontinued
23 after the Serb representatives requested that the municipality be divided
24 into two parts, Serb and Muslim.
25 On 4 April, 1992, the Serbian Territorial Defence of Zvornik was
2 On 5 April 1992, Mr. Mehinagic met General Jankovic in the company
3 of Pasic, the president of the municipality, and Jovo Ivanovic, a Serb who
4 was present of the executive council of Zvornik. Ivanovic told Mehinagic
5 and Pasic that there was no use in meeting Jankovic since there was no use
6 in further talks.
7 On the 1st of April 1992 there was an attempt to divide the police
8 in Zvornik between Serbs and Muslims after a dispatch was received from
9 Momcilo Mandic; however, the division of the police did not take place
10 until the 6th of April 1992. On the 6th of April, 1992, barricades were
11 established by the Serb police and Serbian paramilitary forces.
12 On the 6th of April 1992, Mr. Mehinagic attended the first session
13 of the Council of National Defence in Zvornik. The dominant issue raised
14 by the Serbs was division of the municipality into a Serb and Muslim part.
15 Division of the municipality was presented as virtually a non-negotiable
16 fait accomplis. Mr. Mehinagic considered division to be impossible and
17 untenable; however, the Muslim representatives accepted this discussion to
18 buy time.
19 They considered that if they didn't then the Serb representatives
20 would utilise this supposed failure to negotiate as a basis for an attack
21 on the municipality. After this meeting, Mr. Mehinagic participated in
22 the establishment of a Crisis Staff of the Zvornik municipality.
23 On the 7th of April, 1992, a second session of the council of
24 national Defence was held. At this meeting, the JNA commander Tacic
25 stated that the JNA would take over the barricades that had formed in
1 Zvornik and protect people in case of an attack.
2 On the day of the attack, the 8th of April, 1992, the Muslim
3 leaders Pasic and Kapidzic attended a meeting with representatives of the
4 SDS, Jovo Mijatovic and Jovo Ivanovic. The paramilitary leader Arkan
5 entered this meeting, slapped the SDS representatives and told them that
6 the SDS representatives had nothing to negotiate with the other side and
7 the only competent body to decide the fate of Zvornik was the Assembly.
8 Arkan stated that unless the Muslims laid down their weapons by 1700, the
9 destiny of Zvornik would be the same as Bijeljina.
10 Mehinagic contacted General Savo Jankovic to ask him to put the
11 tanks in a defensive position however Jankovic responded by simply asking
12 him whether his family was in a safe place. Mehinagic immediately wrote
13 the dispatch that I've already referred to, to Jankovic, sending the
14 dispatch as a cry to heaven to the JNA forces to save the people of
15 Zvornik. When Mehinagic wrote this telegram, the shelling of Zvornik had
16 already commenced and shells were being fired from JNA positions.
17 Mehinagic immediately left Zvornik after writing the telegram and
18 fled to Tuzla with his family. In Tuzla, Mr. Mehinagic established the
19 organisation that was to become the association for Zvornik refugees in
20 Tuzla. On the 8th of May 1992, he established the Zvornik municipality in
21 exile. Mr. Mehinagic sent the declaration of the Zvornik municipality to
22 the Territorial Defence office in Zvornik and he was contacted by the
23 Territorial Defence commander Marko Pavlovic who accused him of inciting
24 people to rebellion and threatened him.
25 Mr. Mehinagic also established the municipal commission for the
1 investigation of war crimes. The commission received information from
2 people who were refugees and had fled to Tuzla. Mr. Mehinagic made
3 efforts to publicise crimes that he was informed were taking place in
5 From the 17th of June, 1992 up to October 1992, Mr. Mehinagic was
6 deputy of the coordinating council of the region of Tuzla. This body
7 dealt with all civilian problems and coordinated the regional Territorial
8 Defence Staff.
9 That concludes the summary.
10 Your Honour, if I may proceed with the examination.
11 JUDGE ORIE: You may, Mr. Margetts.
12 Examined by Mr. Margetts:
13 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, do you have a copy before you of your ICTY
14 statement in the Bosnian language?
15 A. I do, Mr. Margetts; I got it.
16 Q. If I could refer to paragraphs 3 to 6 of the statement, in these
17 paragraphs you refer to your role as general manager of the public
18 construction company for railway tracks from Tuzla to Zvornik and you
19 described that in this role you regularly reported to the prime minister
20 Jure Pelivan and the minister of finance; further, you were required to
21 meet with senior politicians in Bosnia and Herzegovina including Momcilo
22 Krajisnik in order to ensure adequate funds were allocated to the railway.
23 In regard to these matters, was it important for you to gain the
24 support from the speaker of the Assembly, Momcilo Krajisnik?
25 A. I considered it very significant when it came to a project which
1 was one of the most significant ones in the former Yugoslavia to inform
2 the public and the leadership of the country on a regular basis, so I
3 myself thought it was very important that I should report on a regular
4 basis to the speaker of the Assembly and the head of government and so
5 that's why I did it. I met with Mr. Krajisnik twice in this respect and
6 both meetings were successful business meetings and they did not touch
7 upon any political issues except a good realisation and implementation of
8 this project.
9 Mr. Krajisnik gave his support to this project and especially when
10 I met with him in his office at the General Assembly and also on the 5th
11 of December, 1991, when he was heading a high-level republic -- delegation
12 of the republic when he came to the Krizevic tunnel when we had a break
13 through there.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I notice that your speed of speech is rather high and
15 I hear that the interpreters have some difficulties in keeping up with you
16 so if you could slow down a bit.
17 MR. MARGETTS: Mr. Mehinagic --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this respect, and this is with
19 respect to paragraph 6, I was in regular contact with the president of the
20 government, Mr. Jure Pelivan, and in one meeting in the course of the
21 month of August 1991, I took the opportunity to make a comment and object
22 to the fact that the leadership of Bosnian Muslims and Croats had asked
23 for them -- for their fellow nationals to leave the JNA because I thought
24 that it was a bad thing for the overall political situation. I thought it
25 was the only legal political power, and so I was horrified by that. But
1 Mr. Pelivan was not a politician, he was a banker. He never counted with
2 any valid arguments he simply waved my comments away and he said it was
3 okay, and he did not at all understand what I was saying. But afterwards,
4 there was a meeting of the Corps commanders at this meeting with the
5 leadership of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
6 Q. If I could just explain to you the process that we're engaging in
7 here in regards to your evidence. The -- all of the material that you see
8 in the statement before you that does not have a line struck through it is
9 admitted into evidence in writing so it's not necessary for us to cover
10 all those matters orally in the court. In particular, the issue of your
11 meeting with Mr. Jure Pelivan is fully detailed in the evidence that's
12 admitted in writing. So I'm just going to ask you a few questions that
13 help to clarify matters that are in the statement and seek explanations
14 that you can provide the Trial Chamber.
15 So I will just return to the matter of it being important for you
16 to gain the support of Mr. Krajisnik. Why was it important specifically
17 for support to be provided by Mr. Krajisnik?
18 A. By virtue of his position, Mr. Krajisnik was after the president
19 of the republic, the second-ranking figure in the leadership of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. In view of his position, I thought it important to
21 regularly inform him thereof and, secondly, he played an important role in
22 the adoption of a budget for the construction of the a railway because
23 such a project was always tabled before the Assembly that decided upon it,
24 and Mr. Krajisnik was speaker ever that Assembly.
25 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Mr. Mehinagic. Your Honours, if I could
1 present to Mr. Mehinagic the second exhibit which is a telegram dated 8
2 April, 1992.
3 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, is this a telegram that you sent to General Savo
4 Jankovic on the 8th of April, 1992?
5 A. Yes, it is.
6 Q. Now, if I can refer you to the top of the telegram, there's a note
7 that states, "Colleague, please pass this -- pass on this telegram
8 urgently, as urgently as possible as thousands of lives are at stake."
9 Then there's some handwriting there. Is that your handwriting?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Whose handwriting is that?
12 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. I see it says here "Inform
13 General Jankovic about the -- what the citizens in Zvornik think." This
14 could be General Kukanjac's handwriting or that of some of his associates
15 because I see that it says Milutin Kukanjac here and General Kukanjac and
16 I were very good friends, we knew each other very well and upon receipt of
17 such a telegram, he had to react in some way, definitely. That was his
18 level of appreciation for me.
19 Q. I refer you to the first paragraph of the telegram and in that
20 paragraph, you refer to negotiations attended by Dragan Obrenovic, Alija,
21 who I assume is Alija Kapidzic from the Territorial Staff in Zvornik, and
22 Abdulah, who I assume is Abdulah Pasic; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. And you state that Arkan was the chief negotiator on behalf of the
25 other side and two representatives were beaten before that. How did you
1 find out about this meeting with Arkan?
2 A. The attack on Zvornik started in the morning at around 8.00 on the
3 8th of April and the president of the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik sought
4 contacts with the SDS. He managed to achieve negotiations to be scheduled
5 in Zvornik at noon. He was accompanied by the commander, the legal
6 commander of the Territorial Defence of the municipality of Zvornik,
7 Mr. Alija Kapidzic. They were there from 11.00 in the 3.00 p.m. We had
8 no information whatsoever from them and all the while, Zvornik was under
10 At 3.00 p.m., I was in the Municipal Staff of the Territorial
11 Defence and there was another very good friend of mine there and nobody
12 else but, in fact, the Territorial Defence did not exist at all because it
13 was not supposed to be mobilised under General Kadijevic's order. At that
14 point, Mr. Abdulah Pasic from the centre -- from the crisis centre of the
15 municipality at the Zvornik MUP found me to tell me what had in fact
16 happened in Mali Zvornik. He told me that they had negotiated with Jovo
17 Mijatovic and Jovo Jovanovic who introduced themselves as the president of
18 the Serbian municipality of Zvornik and the president of the executive
19 board, respectively, that it was in this capacity that they negotiated
20 with them. But there was Captain Obrenovic there, and I was even
21 surprised to hear that the then-president of the Municipal Assembly was
23 MR. MARGETTS: It's difficult for the transcriber to keep up with
24 the speed of your speech. It's unusual here because we have simultaneous
25 translation and also the transcription of the material so you'll probably
1 note that I'm speaking inordinately slowly but if I can invite you to slow
2 down just a little bit. But to continue your answer.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will do my best. They said that
4 they were acting under the threat of force. When they saw that at one
5 point Arkan barged into the room and said, "What sort of negotiations are
6 you carrying -- are you conducting here because you have no authorisation
7 to do that for the Serb part." And it was under such pressure that they
8 signed a document on the division of Zvornik contrary to their beliefs and
9 contrary to the conclusions of the council that was attended by all those
10 responsible in Zvornik including the representatives of the Muslims and
11 the Serbs.
12 So it was contrary to these positions and under coercion that they
13 signed this document on the division.
14 He further told me that Arkan, after having slapped these two Serb
15 representatives, also slapped the commander of the TO Zvornik. He
16 said, "Either you will surrender arms by 5.00 p.m. or you will share the
17 destiny of those from Bijeljina." He returned then to Zvornik, phoned me,
18 and we were to agree on what to do next. He said that he had called a
19 meeting of the Crisis Staff of Zvornik for 4.00 p.m. but that since this
20 was an attack on Zvornik that, hadn't been uncalled for and not provoked
21 in any way, and since the fact that the people were defending themselves
22 was the only chance of their survival, he concluded that the Crisis Staff
23 was not going to accept those terms and that what was to ensue was the
24 massacre of the people in Zvornik.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Only now the translation finished. Could I ask you
1 to look at your screen and keep an eye on it, that as long as the text is
2 moving, that is as long as the translation and the transcript is made,
3 that you make a pause and that you restart once it has stopped moving.
4 THE WITNESS: [In English] Yes, Your Honour.
5 MR. MARGETTS:
6 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, two points of clarification. The first one you
7 said is this, said the head of the TO in Zvornik was also slapped, was
8 that Alija Kapidzic?
9 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
10 Q. The second matter is this, you said that Arkan had told the Serb
11 representatives that they were not -- not authorised to negotiate. Did he
12 indicate where the authority to negotiate would come from?
13 A. According to what President Pasic told me over the phone he had
14 said that testifies only the Assembly that was authorised to do so. Now,
15 as for the meaning of this you would have to ask Arkan. I don't know what
16 he had in mind.
17 Q. I'll just read into the record the next part of this telegram and
18 I'll ask for your comment on it. You mention that an ultimatum has been
19 given for the laying down of weapons and then you say the following:
20 Addressing General Savo Jankovic, you say, "I do not think that the
21 ultimatum will be accepted and that this will lead to an unprecedented
22 massacre of the unprotected and innocent population and to horrible
23 environmental consequences as a result of suicidal action by the desperate
24 population. I send you this dispatch as a cry to heaven and an appeal to
25 you to act in line with the most illustrious traditions of the JNA and the
1 most say credit moral norms of our peoples and to protect the endangered
2 population from a catastrophe such as they have never experienced in their
3 history. Your name will go down in history either as the name of a savior
4 or a man who missed the opportunity to become one. The only solution is
5 to deploy your units from the zone in which they now find themselves
6 together with the forces threatening the population and station them at
7 the approaches to the town where they will defend the endangered
8 population from the oppressors."
9 Were the JNA forces redeployed and did they defend the population
10 of Zvornik?
11 A. I was very much a legalist and in favour of the JNA forces being
12 deployed in and around Zvornik. At the meeting with General Jankovic that
13 I had organised on the 5th of April, and at another meeting of the Council
14 for National Defence held on the 7th of April, it was jointly concluded
15 and the JNA representatives agreed that they would defend the town if
16 attacked. At that point, that is when I was writing this telegram, I was
17 aware of the fact and certain of the fact that Zvornik came under attack
18 from the area where the JNA had been deployed including, of course, Serbia
19 and I could observe that. However, I wanted to leave open the possibility
20 for the JNA to defend the population whose defence it was responsible for.
21 It was only when he asked me whether I had sent my family away somewhere
22 safe, I told him, "Does this mean that there's nothing further that the
23 two of us have to discuss?" That's when I understood that we were going
24 to be under attack.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mehinagic, approximately 12 lines back, I read
1 the question which was: "Were the JNA forces redeployed and did they
2 defend the population of Zvornik?" Until now, you've given us a lot of
3 information but you've not yet answered the question. Would you please
4 focus very much on answering the question and if we'd like, or if
5 Mr. Margetts would like to know more about the background or further
6 details, he'll certainly ask you. We are under some time restraint which
7 for you as a -- in your own capacity, must be a well-known matter. So may
8 I ask you to focus on the question and to start answering that first.
9 So the question was whether the JNA forces were redeployed and
10 whether they defended the population of Zvornik.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to that, Your Honour, if I might
12 just add, it seems to me that the most useful approach may be to actually
13 ask the witness what he saw or heard or what have you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas, I put a question to the witness.
15 Let's first see whether we can get him on track, to focus on the question.
16 MS. LOUKAS: If Your Honour pleases.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please answer the question put to you
18 whether the JNA was redeployed and whether they protected the Zvornik
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The JNA forces were deployed around
21 Zvornik and did not defend the town. They were basically arranged so as
22 to execute an attack on Zvornik.
23 MR. MARGETTS:
24 Q. Yes. Mr. Mehinagic, I understand fully that the full background
25 and the context was contained in your answer, the full background to the
1 matter that I was dealing with in my question but I just wanted to
2 reassure you again that in order to save time in the court, we actually
3 have all of that information in writing in the -- in evidence and so it's
4 not necessary for us to restate that or reiterate it in the court.
5 I'll just be asking specific questions to develop and clarify
6 those matters that are already in evidence.
7 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if the next exhibit could be presented
8 to Mr. Mehinagic, and that's a transcript of an interview from Tuzla
9 Radio. And, Your Honour, if I may, can we clarify the exhibit number that
10 was given to the telegram of 8 April 1992 if one was already given, or
11 could we have an exhibit number for that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I think it had not been given yet and Mr. Registrar,
13 would that be P645 for the original and P645.1 for the translation?
14 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The number has been assigned. And for our next
16 document which is the transcript of an interview, Mr. Registrar, that
17 would be ...
18 THE REGISTRAR: The next exhibit number would be P646 for the
19 interview, and the translation would be 646.1 in B/C/S.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it the interview was taken in B/C/S,
21 Mr. Margetts?
22 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then English would be the translation so the B/C/S
24 original is P646 and the English translation is P646.1.
25 MR. MARGETTS:
1 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, before you is a transcript of an interview that you
2 gave Radio Zvornik -- sorry, Radio Tuzla. Since you've arrived in The
3 Hague, have you had an opportunity to review this transcript?
4 A. I've listened. I've reviewed the transcript and listened to the
5 interview in its original form.
6 Q. And are matters set out here accurate?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And if you could just inform the Court, after you sent the
9 telegram to General Jankovic, did you leave Zvornik and, if so, where did
10 you go to?
11 A. After having sent a telegram to General Jankovic, I put my family
12 into my car and left Zvornik along the Zvornik-Didic-Sultanovic road. On
13 the section of the Zvornik-Didic road, there was heavy gun and artillery
14 fire from the direction of Serbia which targeted the road and the area in
15 general. I told my family to lie down on the floor in the car and I kept
16 driving despite the odds.
17 Q. And you reached Tuzla?
18 A. I spent the night at Glumina at some of my friends house and
19 that's where I could -- from there, I could watch the artillery fire, the
20 shelling of Zvornik. The following morning at 8.30, after having arranged
21 so with Selim Beslagic, the president of the municipal Assembly, and Mesa
22 Bajric, the chief of the SUP who had sent police escort to meet me, I
23 returned -- I went with my family to Tuzla.
24 Q. If I could refer you to your statement and if I could refer you to
25 the paragraphs which are 69 to 71. Now, in paragraph 69 to 71, you set
1 out -- you refer to a press conference you gave in Tuzla and a radio
2 interview. Can you confirm to the Court that the transcript that you have
3 before you is a transcript of the interview that's referred to in those
5 A. Yes. That's the transcript of my interview for Radio Tuzla.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mehinagic.
7 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if we could refer to the next exhibit
8 which is a videotape of events in Zvornik. The CD will be provided later
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The number would be, Mr. Registrar, do we have
11 the -- we look at the videotape, yes. The number would be ...
12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: The video's number would be P647.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 MR. MARGETTS:
16 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, if I could just direct your attention to this video
17 as it plays and I will ask you some questions about it once it's
19 [Videotape played]
20 MR. MARGETTS: Our apologies, we seem to have the wrong sequence.
21 We will be playing that later. If I could just correct that.
22 [Videotape played]
23 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, unfortunately, I'm going to have to
24 stop that video, it's not the correct sequence and we'll move on to
25 another part of the examination.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I was wondering what this had to do with this
2 part of your examination.
3 MR. MARGETTS: In fact, Your Honour, what I'd like to do is move
4 to -- if the exhibit number could be maintained for that video and we will
5 present that at a later time today after we've had time to rectify the
6 problem and if the next exhibit could be the next one in order, which is
7 the transcript of interview with Arkan.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be ...
9 THE REGISTRAR: The next exhibit for the transcript of interview
10 would be P648.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I take it then that the CD would be 648 and that the
12 transcript would be 648A and 648A.1 for the English translation.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honours.
14 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, we will be providing the CD.
15 If I could turn Your Honour to page 13 of the English translation
16 for both Your Honours and Mr. Mehinagic's benefit, that is the sequence
17 that starts at the timing reference, 1:29:39, and if that first clip could
18 be played.
19 [Videoclip played]
20 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "And quite by coincidence, I set off
21 with my aide-de-camp. We sent off for Mali Zvornik because they had
22 called us urgently to go over there and when I arrived I went straight
23 over to a meeting. The meeting was attended by the commander of the SDA
24 Zvornik, the commander of the Zvornik Crisis Staff, a Turk, and on the
25 other side, the commander of the SDS Crisis Staff and president of the
1 Zvornik SDS. At Mali Zvornik on the other side of the Drina river, when
2 asked about what they were talk being they said, "You know, the Muslims
3 have taken over Zvornik and we're insisting that they let the Serbs go and
4 we will hand Karakaj over to them." That was the story. Which is another
5 part of Zvornik.
6 "Naturally, I asked those two Serbs who authorised you to
7 discuss -- to negotiate for treason. No one has the authority to
8 negotiate for treason and naturally I caught them and beat both of them
9 up, both one and the other. They were slapped a couple of times. We
10 didn't touch the Turks. I just gave them a pencil and a piece of paper to
11 write down how many weapons they had. And when they saw us beating up
12 Serbs, they wondered what we would do to them. And they wrote down the
13 number of 700 armed men on a piece of paper, where their units were, how
14 they were deployed, who was leading them and so forth.
15 "Then I asked them, "Did you here to negotiate?" They said "Yes,
16 we did." I gave them an ultimatum to surrender the town by 0800 hours;
17 otherwise, I would destroy it. That's how it was. At 0500 hours, they
18 did not want to surrender the town. I ordered artillery fire and
19 naturally we entered Zvornik at 0500 hours. Fighting went on throughout
20 the day. Zvornik was seized. We had a lot of prisoners. There were many
21 dead on their side because they were not skilled in combat. They died in
22 sheaves. They died in sheaves. They were fanatics. So there was fierce
23 fighting which last the several hours and we came out as the winners.
24 "Kula was still theirs. They resisted over there and two of my
25 security officers were killed as a result of naivete. A group of Muslims
1 was surrendering, about 40 of them, while snipers waited on the other
2 side. And then when two of them came out of the shelter to meet those who
3 were surrendering, the snipers killed them from the side.
4 "And naturally, we continued fighting until we captured ... with
5 the help of others, we captured Kula, and so forth. Later, we left
6 Zvornik after a couple of days and they established a government over
7 there which did not function at first, because a lot of trash came over
8 from Serbia who even looted and stole from the Serbs.
9 "I returned once to Zvornik after spending a several days in Erdut
10 and I had to impose discipline to slap the authorities around; they were
11 actually a band of rabble. And, you know, later, special police units
12 came from Pale and disarmed all those people who were in Zvornik and
13 arrested them.
14 "And what happened afterwards with your unit?" Arkan: "Well after
15 that, our unit ..."
16 MR. MARGETTS:
17 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, I'd just like to ask you a question about that
18 interview with Arkan. He stated at the beginning that he had obtained
19 information that the Muslims had taken over Zvornik on the 8th of April,
20 1992; was that the case?
21 A. On the night between the 5th and the 6th of April 1992, under the
22 circumstances that I've described in great detail in my statement,
23 Serbs --
24 Q. Can I just stop you there. We've only got a short time for the
25 examination so I'm going to ask you some very specific questions and if
1 you can just address yourself to the question and once again, be assured
2 that all of the background is dealt with in detail in the statement that's
3 admitted into evidence.
4 So I'll just ask you that question again, and that is: Had the
5 Muslims taken over Zvornik when Arkan arrived in Zvornik?
6 A. No.
7 Q. The next question is this: He said here that he asked the Serb
8 authorities who authorised them to discuss treason and he said that no one
9 has a mandate to discuss treason. You've detailed to the Court what Mr.
10 Pasic told you after your -- after this meeting. Is that consistent with
11 what Mr. Pasic told you occurred and what Mr. Arkan said?
12 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to that, Your Honours, that sort of
13 question is actually of no assistance to the Trial Chamber. Your Honours
14 have heard the evidence, you have the evidence before you in the statement
15 as well as to the information that was conveyed to Mr. Pasic. Consistency
16 or otherwise is of course a matter for the Trial Chamber.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It's -- whether the witness sees any inconsistency
18 might be of assistance to the Chamber.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.
20 MS. LOUKAS: If Your Honour pleases.
21 MR. MARGETTS:
22 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, do you see that as being the same message that
23 Mr. Pasic gave you as to what Mr. Arkan said?
24 A. I do recognise what I was told by Mr. Pasic on the phone here.
25 Q. The next matter is that Arkan says that there was fighting and
1 that they -- the Serbs had a lot of prisoners and there were many dead on
2 the other side and that they died in sheaves. Is that correct?
3 A. Obviously I can't testify about that because I was no longer at
4 Zvornik. According to my information, that could have been civilians but
5 I wasn't present.
6 Q. When you went to Tuzla, did any person who was present in Zvornik
7 inform you as to what had happened after you you'd left on the 8th and 9th
8 of April?
9 A. Of course I was getting reports, the President Pasic still had
10 some kind of moral obligation to me so he did report to me on occasion
11 when we met about those events. Also refugees would tell me about
12 everything and victims as well who used to come from that area and
13 afterwards, all the structures of the municipality of Tuzla had been set
14 up so I had all the reports that went through the structure. And that's
15 the basis for the information I got.
16 Q. And what information did you receive about deaths on the -- at the
17 time that Arkan's units and other forces took over Zvornik?
18 A. According to that information, basically Zvornik was left on the
19 9th of April and the defenders with a couple of thousands of the local
20 inhabitants, the local population, they took shelter in Kula and according
21 to the news from TV Belgrade, there were about 74 people killed so it
22 could be ascribed to the overall number of civilians killed. But there
23 were quite a few video and TV reports referring to all that. According to
24 my information and on the basis of all the information I got at that
25 stage, and during the following month between 300 and 500 people had been
1 killed in the city of Zvornik itself.
2 Q. Arkan, toward of the end of that clip that we showed you, says
3 that he had to return to Zvornik and slap the authorities around. After
4 you left Zvornik, did you receive information as to which authorities
5 obtained power in Zvornik?
6 A. My information confirmed what Arkan has said because there was an
7 overall state of confusion, there was looting and rapes also aimed at Serb
8 women and girls and they were victims of those Serb formations as well.
9 Q. Once yourself and Mr. Pasic left Zvornik, did you receive any
10 information as to who became president of the municipality or led the
11 municipality of Zvornik in the city of Zvornik?
12 A. We would get that information from the refugees and we also
13 listened to the so-called Serb Radio Zvornik so we got some information
14 that way as well.
15 Q. What was that information as regards who became the president of
16 the municipality and which organised authority was in control of Zvornik?
17 A. According to that information, initially, Jovo Mijatovic and Jovo
18 Jovanovic respectively. And then there was some sort of interim
19 government presided over by Brano Grujic and thereupon, in 1992, the --
20 there was Brano Grujic and then for the executive committee, it was a
21 professor called Radoslav Peric.
22 Q. In regard to Grujic, Mijatovic and Ivanovic, which political party
23 were they affiliated with?
24 A. They were all members of the Serb Democratic Party and Grujic was
25 the president of one of the SDS committee and Mijatovic was a member of
1 the republic Assembly. And Ivanovic, as one of the leaders of the SDS was
2 the president of the municipal committee.
3 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to play another clip from the
4 exhibit P648 and that is a clip that begins at the counter reference
5 1:23:13 which is beginning at the bottom of page 10 of the translation.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
7 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "This is the war. Now we've come to
8 the war in the Republika Srpska. You had -- you had your activities going
9 on. We had some data according to which Muslims had gotten organised.
10 Some members of our own Serb guard coming from the area we were reporting
11 to us on a regular basis and Vojkan Curkovic, he now works on exchanges
12 and he supplied us with regular information about the situation in
13 Republika Srpska."
14 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, that was --
15 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed -- I noticed, Mr. Margetts, that compared
16 to the transcripts, that parts of the translations were missing,
17 especially on the -- where it goes from page 10 to 11.
18 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, if we may play that clip again
19 and I'll just orient the translators again to the counter reference, it's
21 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Yes, it was here at Celic. That's
22 already the war in Republika Srpska. So we have come to the war in
23 Republika Srpska. You already had the halo of a warrior and soldier. You
24 commenced your operations in Bijeljina. Yes. So we at the invitation of
25 the Serb Democratic Party because they already knew here we had
1 information that the Muslims had organised themselves. Even some members
2 of our Serbian volunteer guard who are from here gave us regular
3 information. Vojkan Curkovic he now works in exchanges and they supplied
4 us with regular information about the situation in Republika Srpska, I
5 think, then Bosnia and Herzegovina."
6 MR. MARGETTS:
7 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, Arkan states in this interview that in response to
8 a question about commencing his operations in Bijeljina, that he was at
9 the invitation of the Serbian Democratic Party. Do you have any
10 information that you can give to the Trial Chamber in regard to
11 Mr. Arkan's association or otherwise with the Serbian Democratic Party?
12 A. I really can't testify properly about this other than the points
13 I've already made, that is to say the fact that he was present in Zvornik.
14 Q. And you stated earlier that the leaders of the Zvornik
15 municipality after Arkan's forces were engaged were the members of the
16 SDS. Is that correct, did the SDS assume control of the municipal organs
17 after the attack on Zvornik?
18 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I object to that question. The witness
19 has quite clearly stated that his information in relation to the
20 leadership becomes second or third hand and the question has already been
21 asked in relation to this issue and, Your Honours, I object to this
22 further attempt by the Prosecutor in relation to the same area.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts.
24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'm quite happy to withdraw that
25 question and move on.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
2 MR. MARGETTS: So I do formally withdraw that prior -- previous
4 Q. Now, Mr. Mehinagic, I'd like to move on from that exhibit and I'd
5 like to present a bunch of exhibits to the witness and these are the
6 documents that appear on the exhibit list between numbers 7 and 11.
7 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I note that the first two documents,
8 and they are documents 7 and 8, already have exhibit numbers but if the
9 documents 9, 10, and 11 could each be provided individual exhibit numbers.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
12 JUDGE ORIE: We have not seen yet Exhibit 6 on your list,
13 Mr. Margetts; is that correct?
14 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, that's correct due to the
15 malfunction of the video, I haven't been able to move to that exhibit.
16 But I intend to come back to that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then for -- Mr. Registrar, first of all, for exhibit
18 on the list number 9, which is an announcement of the first regular
19 session of the Assembly of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik, that would
20 be number ...
21 THE REGISTRAR: P649, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. And then the next one, the decision on
23 the proclamation of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik.
24 THE REGISTRAR: That would be 650, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And the decision on the association of the Serbian
1 municipality of Zvornik to the region of Majevica, Semberija, and Birac.
2 THE REGISTRAR: That would be 651, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.
5 MR. MARGETTS:
6 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, during the period late 1991 and early 1992, were
7 you in regular contact with Mr. Pasic and other leaders of the Zvornik
9 A. In the capacity of the manager of the railway, I was in regular
10 contacts with municipal leaders. Since my job was a very demanding one --
11 these were of course business contacts and meetings at some crucial points
12 of the realisation of the project.
13 On the eve of the events that I'm testifying about, a month
14 earlier, I realised that something important was happening and that I, as
15 a person with a public profile, had to do something.
16 Q. Yes, Mr. Mehinagic, I again I reiterate that your activities
17 during that period are detailed in your statement. I just want to refer
18 you to the first document that was presented to you, it's a document dated
19 at the top 22nd December 1991, and it sets out the conclusions of the
20 Zvornik Municipal Board meeting held on the 22nd of December 1991. You'll
21 see at point 3 that a Crisis Staff has been elected and you'll see at
22 point 6 that the Assembly of the Serb People of the municipality of
23 Zvornik in scheduled for the 27th of December 1991. Were you aware at
24 that time either that a Crisis Staff had been formed by the SDS or that a
25 Serb Assembly was to meet in Zvornik?
1 A. I was not aware of that.
2 Q. If I can take you to the second document and that's the document
3 headed decision regarding the formation of the Serbian municipality of
4 Zvornik. And that decision refers to Assembly session held on the 27th of
5 December, 1991 and in article 2 of that decision, there is the definition
6 of the region of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik and to the areas that
7 that includes. Could you just cast your eye over those areas described
9 Now, at that time, were you aware that there had been a decision
10 on the formation of the Serbian municipality and this Serbian municipality
11 was to be constituted by those areas described there?
12 A. I did not know. This is the first time that I saw the document
13 here, I mean.
14 Q. What is your response to Article 2 of this decision, that is, to
15 an Assembly of the Serbian People of Zvornik being the Assembly
16 responsible for the regions defined there?
17 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honours, I would object to the formulation of
18 the question. "What is your response to Article 2," I would submit, is
19 not a focused question, and may lead to an unfocussed answer. I think if
20 Mr. Margetts is seeking a response in relation to this issue, to ask "What
21 is your response," without focussing question will lead to an unfocussed
22 answer in my submission, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And if he focuses on specific matters then he risks
24 of finding it objected by being leading.
25 Mr. Margetts, of course, if the answer is vague but it's a very
1 open question but it can be put to the witness.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. MARGETTS:
4 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, just restating the question, looking at Article 2
5 there where there is a reference to regions and I'll actually just repeat
6 the question, and the question was this: What is your response to Article
7 2 of this decision, that is, to an Assembly of the Serbian People of
8 Zvornik being the Assembly responsible for the regions defined in Article
10 A. My attitude then and my attitude now has been and still is that it
11 is impossible, unacceptable, and irrational; and, secondly, there was
12 always a Serb Knez, or a Serb chief in a Serb village, and the Muslim
13 villages were headed by Muslims.
14 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, I'll refer you to the next document and that is a
15 document dated 11 March, 1992 and it's a notice to all deputies of the
16 Serbian municipality of Zvornik and it states that the first regular
17 session of the Assembly of the Serbian municipality will be held on the
18 15th of March, 1992. Were you aware that such a meeting was scheduled for
19 the 15th of March, 1992?
20 A. I didn't know, and as I've said, I've only seen this document here
21 and then I find out that this was convened, this meeting was convened.
22 Q. And I'd like to refer you to the next document which is dated 15
23 March, 1992 and is a decision on the proclamation of the Serbian
24 municipality of Zvornik and I'd in particular like to direct your
25 attention to the definition of the territory of the Serbian municipality
1 and the territory is defined by reference to the decision we previously
2 saw. That is, the territory is defined pursuant to Article 2 of the
3 decision on the establishment of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik.
4 Were you aware that on the 15th of March, 1992, the Serbian
5 municipality of Zvornik was proclaimed and it was to include the
6 territories we looked at a moment ago?
7 A. Could you please repeat the question? Are you referring to the
8 Serb municipality of Zvornik or the region of Birac.
9 Q. I think we may have -- my next question relates to the document
10 addressing the regional matters. This question is directed to a document
11 dated 15 March 1992 headed, "Decision on the proclamation of the Serbian
12 municipality of Zvornik." Do you have that decision before you?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. So my question was on the 15th of March, 1992, were you aware that
15 the municipality of Zvornik had been proclaimed and were you aware that
16 that Serbian municipality consisted of the territories that we saw
17 described in the earlier decision dated 27 December 1991?
18 A. I did not know that.
19 Q. I'll now move to the final document from this series and this is a
20 decision on the association of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik to the
21 regions of Majevica Semberija and Birac. Again this decision is dated 15
22 March 1992.
23 Did you have any information in relation to the formation of the
24 Serbian regions of Birac?
25 A. Exactly at that time, I was watching television and there was a
1 report from the founding Assembly for this region of Birac and it was held
2 at Sekovici. I remember that because in the first row, I saw a good
3 friend of mine, Bozo Milic, who was their president of the executive
4 committee for Vlasenica. And I thought that he was out of place there.
5 Q. What nationality or what ethnicity was Mr. Milic?
6 A. Serb.
7 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if those documents could be returned,
8 and the next exhibit could be presented to the witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could I ask, we are close to 10.30,
10 Mr. Margetts, I don't know whether you could deal with the next one. I
11 would have one question in relation to one of these exhibits. And that's
12 the document of the 22nd of December, 1991, which is already in evidence
13 as P529 tab 40.
14 Mr. Mehinagic, I do understand that you only became later aware of
15 the existence of a Serbian or SDS Crisis Staff. In this document which
16 says that a Crisis Staff for the municipality of Zvornik is elected, I
17 first of all see quite some names but there's one position which is not
18 mentioned by name but by function, that is Command Staff of Zvornik
19 municipality. Do you know who was to be considered command staff of
20 Zvornik municipality in December 1991?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Obviously I'm seeing this document
22 for the first time and I find it rather surprising because I did not know
23 that there was a command staff of JNA in the municipality of Zvornik. It
24 could have been Major Zoran Jovanovic by the nature of things, he was a
25 good friend of mine. He used to work at the factory in Birac or Obrenovic
1 who was the commander of the armoured battalion of the JNA. But he was
2 not there at the time, he had not arrived yet, so he couldn't have been
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You, in your statement, you have given a lot of
5 observations in respect of the JNA just prior to and during the attack
6 at -- on Zvornik. The information that the command staff of Zvornik
7 municipality JNA was elected as a member or at least an organisation which
8 was part of the Crisis Staff, does that give you any reason to adjust or
9 to complete the observations you have made about the role of the JNA
10 during the attack on Zvornik?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be honest, considering my
12 relationship with the JNA commanders, I'm wondering whether it was JNA
13 staff for Zvornik at all. And in case it was, it may have been
14 established on the other side of Drina because I'm convinced that
15 General Jankovic would have informed me of the existence of some sort of
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was there -- you've repeatedly said that you
18 look at matters also from the formal point of view. From a formal point
19 of view, could any JNA command commit itself to a municipal Crisis Staff
20 formed by the SDS?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In legal terms, no, never. From a
22 purely legal point of view, because they should be separate from any
23 political party, according to what is enshrined in law.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
25 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I would just have one further question
1 and that is the following.
2 Q. In your statement, you observed that the SDS members of the
3 Zvornik Assembly, that's the mixed nationality Assembly, had ceased
4 attending meetings of the Zvornik Assembly. Having seen these documents,
5 do they assist you in understanding the -- understanding the events you
6 have observed in Zvornik?
7 A. Glancing at these documents, I realise why the councillors from
8 the General Assembly of Zvornik boycotted the Assembly meetings. Between
9 the end of December and the 3rd of April when a meeting was held. The
10 reason, obviously, was the setting up of some kind of Serb municipality on
11 the 27th of December, some sort of illegal Serb municipality.
12 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Mr. Mehinagic. That would be an
13 appropriate time, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is, Mr. Margetts.
15 Mr. Mehinagic, we will have a break until 11.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, you may proceed.
19 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour. If we could now return to
20 the video that we unsuccessfully attempted to play earlier and that's P647
21 and if we could play that.
22 And Mr. Mehinagic, if you could watch the screen in front of you,
23 we're going to play the video we attempted to play earlier.
24 [Videotape played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] I could say that there isn't any
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 particular reason ...
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, only now the English translation
3 appears on the transcript so we have to restart and see whether we get
4 everything, every spoken single word.
5 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, for the purposes of the examination of
6 this witness, if we could just play the video, and we could not have a
7 simultaneous translation into English. There are some subtitles which
8 will appear on the video and I don't think that will in any way affect the
9 comments that I'm seeking from this witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, would you agree with such a procedure,
11 that is, that Mr. Margetts takes the view that the text spoken is not of
12 any relevance for what he wants to ...
13 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, if -- yes, the text spoken is not
14 of any relevance, then it's merely for the playing of the video, then I
15 don't take any objection to that cause. If there were to be any questions
16 to relation to the text then quite clearly we would need a proper
17 translation in the courtroom.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So then the parties agree on it. This could
19 have been better announced from the beginning, Mr. Margetts.
20 MR. MARGETTS: My apologies, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We were a bit surprised by this different approach
22 from the usual approach.
23 Could we restart?
24 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, and just a direction to the translators that
25 there's no need for them to translate the spoken word.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 [Videotape played]
3 MR. MARGETTS:
4 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, was the footage shown of the soldiers and the other
5 various scenes depicted footage of the city of Zvornik and its surrounds?
6 A. Yes, it was.
7 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, I'd like to show you some still clips and the first
8 one appears at 17 minutes 18 seconds on the video. Can you identify this
10 A. This is Brano Grujic, president of the Municipal SDS Board.
11 Q. The second one I'd like to show you appears at 17 minutes 42.
12 A. This is Adbulah Pasic, president of the Zvornik Municipal
14 Q. The third one I'd like to show you appears at 19 minutes 58.
15 A. This is Mr. Mendiluce who spoke of what he had experienced in
16 Zvornik. I met him in Sarajevo when he was promoting his book on his
17 experience in Bosnia. And he told me the very same thing he stated in
18 this footage. What you can hear -- what you can see here is some members
19 of the defence, the man holding a rifle is Fajdo from the area of Bukovik
20 that was first under attack and he returned to his home. He lives in
21 Zvornik today.
22 Q. This still is 19 minutes 47 on the tape. After this attack, where
23 did this gentleman go, did he remain in Zvornik or did he leave?
24 A. He fled to Tuzla where I used to meet him occasionally.
25 Q. This is at the tape, 20 minutes and 10 seconds. Do you recognise
1 that man?
2 A. This is Esad Srabovic, an engineer from the Glinica factory in
4 Q. Did he remain in Zvornik or did he leave?
5 A. No, he fled to Tuzla and then from there, he went abroad.
6 Q. The next one is from 20 minutes and 30 seconds. Do you recognise
7 this man?
8 A. This is an eminent economician, Talic, from the same Glinica
9 factory; he currently resides in the United States.
10 Q. Did you know when he left Zvornik?
11 A. This took place in early April when the exodus from Zvornik was
13 Q. Mr. Esad Srabovic and Mr. Taljic, what ethnicity from they?
14 A. They were Muslims, Bosniaks.
15 Q. Sorry, Your Honour, that's not the correct still. I'll move to
16 the next one. This is at 21 minutes 43. Can you identify that man who is
17 being held by the soldier?
18 A. This is Muhamed Zaimovic, the erstwhile president of the municipal
19 court of Zvornik. He was detained in Zvornik for a while and then he fled
20 abroad. Today he lives at Vogosca near Sarajevo.
21 Q. And the next clip which is 22 minutes 56. Can you identify anyone
22 in this clip?
23 A. This is the body of Izet Sabirovic a veterinarian, one of the most
24 distinguished figures of Zvornik. He was of course a civilian. He is in
25 this particular clip being taken out of his courtyard.
1 Q. And again would Mr. Muhamed Zaimovic and Mr. Izmet Sabirovic, what
2 ethnicity were they?
3 A. They were also Bosniaks.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one addition until question in relation
5 to the last clip.
6 Mr. Mehinagic, on the basis of what, exactly, did you identify the
7 deceased person, because it's difficult to see his face. Is it mainly on
8 the environment - as you said, he is taken out from his courtyard - that
9 you concluded that this must be the person you mentioned.
10 A. First of all, this takes place in his courtyard. Secondly, I
11 viewed this footage with his wife and she confirmed this to me.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So you say that on the basis of what his wife told
13 you, which you find supported by what you see as far as the place is
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This was confirmed by numerous
16 other eyewitnesses. They all commented on this particular event and
17 confirmed that that was him. Nobody thought to the contrary, and he was a
18 very distinguished person in the town.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not suggesting in any way that it's not him, but
20 it's important for this Court to know exactly on the basis of what
21 knowledge and on the basis of whose observations we conclude about the
22 identity of this person.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I fully understand the
24 position of the Trial Chamber. Since I knew Izet Sabirovic and since what
25 I saw here confirms what I had been -- what I had heard as description,
1 that's why I think so.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.
3 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if I could -- I'll continue with the
4 stills but at this point, with this particular still on the display, if I
5 could present the next document to Mr. Mehinagic, and that is the document
6 which appears as number 6 in the witness list, and if that could be given
7 a number. That's the "Order on the Establishment for the Commission of
8 Clearing up a Battlefield."
9 JUDGE ORIE: Dated the 19th of May 1992.
10 Mr. Registrar, would that be P652 for the original and P652.1 for
11 the English translation?
12 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
14 MR. MARGETTS:
15 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, can you look at the names in this document, which
16 is the "order on the establishment for clearing up the battlefield," dated
17 19 May, 1992 and you'll see that the first name listed in item one is
18 Kosta Eric. Do you know who Costa Eric is?
19 A. Yes, at the time of these events, he was the secretary of the
20 municipal staff of civilian protection. He worked for the municipal staff
21 for national defence. He still lives in Zvornik.
22 Q. The second name that appears is Nedjo Mladjenovic, can you tell
23 the Court what he is?
24 A. Nedjo Mladjenovic is a very good friend of mine, we still on very
25 good terms. At that time, he was the manager of a public utility company.
1 Q. Whilst you were in Tuzla, were you told anything about
2 Mr. Mladjenovic's activities in April and May of 1992?
3 A. I heard from refugees who came from over there that there was this
4 clearing up of a battlefield and on the basis of the report that I
5 received, I heard that the commission had been established quite -- at a
6 quite later stage in relation to the time when the civilians were actually
7 killed. This order that I see now for the first time confirms what I
9 Q. What did you specifically hear about Mr. Mladjenovic?
10 A. As manager of a public utility company, he organised trucks and
11 the machinery for digging up mass graves and that he was involved in the
12 burial of these people.
13 MR. MARGETTS: If we could -- I've finished with that exhibit,
14 Mr. Mehinagic. If we could now continue with the stills.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Mehinagic, could we ask about the ethnicity of
16 the president and the members of the commission for clearing up a
17 battlefield. Could you tell us what their ethnicity is.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Kosta Eric and Nedjo
19 Mladjenovic are Serbs. I can say that because I know them. As for the
20 other two, I could say the same judging by their names, but I am -- I do
21 not know this for a fact.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My next question to be you told us that Nedjo
23 Mladjenovic is still a good friend of yours. Could you explain to us
24 whether this is your general attitude, that whatever has happened, it does
25 not disturb your friendships or that it was particular behaviour, because
1 we have heard a lot of testimonies where people were very much
2 disappointed in what they thought to be friends.
3 Could you tell us a bit more about a good friend of yours who took
4 up with this function and you still describe him as a good friend?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have known Nedjo Mladjenovic for a
6 long time because I used to work in the same company he worked for. I was
7 able to see for myself that he was a good man and a good friend. He had
8 to carry out this task as manager of the public utility company and I
9 don't see anything dishonourable in that. And it's on that basis that I
10 still consider him and I still socialise with him.
11 JUDGE ORIE: What you're telling us is that just being a Serb is
12 not to blame anyone for what happened; is that a correct understanding?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, you've understood
14 me well. I was never of that opinion and I did not change my opinion
15 after the events in 1992 and 1995 and I don't think I will change my view
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.
19 No, Judge Hanoteau has a question as well.
20 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Bearing this in mind, do you have
21 the statement before you?
22 MR. MARGETTS: I believe that Mr. Mehinagic has his statement
23 there before him.
24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] On page 5 of the statement, in
25 the English version, paragraph 29, which is quite a lengthy one, much is
1 said about a meeting in which Serb leaders --
2 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours, I believe it's paragraph 19.
3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [In English] I'm sorry, it's 19. Excuse me.
4 [Interpretation] A meeting where Serb leaders were repeating or saying
5 that Serbs and Muslims could not live together and in your statement, you
6 state that, [In English] ..."could not successfully live together in
7 Zvornik was completely preposterous. One could hardly find the single
8 ethic [sic] members's family."
9 [Interpretation] Could you perhaps clarify this for us? You
10 emphasised the fact that people were working alongside with each other in
11 companies, and you said the industrial and commercial success of the town
12 of Zvornik was due to the joint efforts of a multi-ethnic community.
13 Could you spell this out for us, please, and how can you explain to us the
14 reasons why this came to an end?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I've stated my
16 attitude very explicitly before, so I'm going to try and keep my answer
17 brief. Zvornik was a municipality with 59 per cent of Bosniaks, 38 per
18 cent Serbs and 2.7 per cent of others. It can be considered that all the
19 way up to the elections where the national parties won in 1990, we enjoyed
20 a harmonious interethnic relationship. We respected one another. We
21 socialised. We were friends.
22 In my own family, my eldest brother is married to a Serb and
23 they're still together. And it was very unusual to find a family, either
24 an extended family or whatever with no such examples.
25 On the other hand, it was a very successful business community and
1 it embraced the project of reform put forward by the former Yugoslav
2 Premier, Ante Markovic, and the results were outstanding. Obviously Serbs
3 and Muslims worked in it together and there were directors and managers
4 and bosses from both groups and there was no national tension in any of
5 these companies.
6 Thirdly, Zvornik is situated at the border with Serbia and we had
7 excellent neighbourly and business relations with Serbia. Most companies
8 from Zvornik enjoyed great cooperation with companies on other side of the
9 border in Serbia. Tens of thousands of people who were employed in Serbia
10 originally came from the area of the municipality of Zvornik and at the
11 Birac factory, for example, Glinica-Birac factory, they were many people
12 what came from Loznica, many employees, I mean, so we really relied on one
13 another and that was the basis for holding a rational view that we can
14 live together.
15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Just one clarification. In your
16 daily life, there were no clashes between the two communities, between
17 people belonging to different ethnic groups?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Generally speaking, no, not in
19 Zvornik. Those tensions became to -- began to appear, rather, when the
20 national parties came to power and when the influence of nationalism from
21 outside Bosnia and Herzegovina started to be felt.
22 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts.
24 Judge Hanoteau read out of paragraph 19, I think he read a single
25 ethnic members family, it appears now as it also appears in the statement
1 as "single ethic members family." From comparing compares with the B/C/S,
2 which reads [B/C/S spoken] I take it that it's a typo.
3 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, I think that is a typographical
4 error and I think it's clear from the witness's answer that he is
5 referring to ethnic members of the families.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So that has been corrected for the sake of the
8 MR. MARGETTS: If I could refer to the next still.
9 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, are any of the faces in this still familiar to you?
10 A. I know the first man we can see on the screen. I don't know his
11 name, but I know that he is from a suburb of Bajer in the city of
12 Zvornik. He's somewhat younger than me so I don't know his name.
13 Q. Do you know what nationality he is?
14 A. He is Bosniak.
15 Q. And that particular still I'm referring to appears at 22 minutes
16 58 on the tape. So if we could refer to the next still which is 23
17 minutes 47. Do you recognise any of the faces in this still?
18 A. The person to the right is Muhamed Dzinic who was maybe 200 or 300
19 meters from the house where I was born.
20 Q. And what ethnicity is this gentleman?
21 A. Bosniak.
22 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours, I've finished with the stills and
23 that video. If I could now present as a bundle, the next four exhibits
24 and that's numbers 12, 13, 14 and 15. I note that the diary which is
25 marked as number 12 already as an exhibit number, P48. If the next three
1 exhibits could be given exhibit numbers.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the facsimile from Petar Jankovic
3 which seems to be dated the 23rd of March would receive number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That Your Honours would be Prosecution Exhibit
5 P653. And the translation would be P653.1.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The next one would be the interview with Dragan
8 THE REGISTRAR: That, Your Honours, would be Prosecution Exhibit
9 P654 and the translation would be P654.1.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then the last one, that is a list of payments to
11 members of the Zvornik TO.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That, Your Honours, would be Prosecution Exhibit
13 P655, with the English translation at P655.1.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, please proceed.
15 MR. MARGETTS:
16 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, if I could refer to you written document which is a
17 diary of Petar Jankovic, do you know who Petar Jankovic is?
18 A. He was the president of SDS in Kalesija.
19 Q. And Mr. Mehinagic, if I could refer you to an entry for the 24th
20 of January 1992, and you'll note that there is an 8-digit number above the
21 handwritten 24 January 1992, that's 0018-5104, and the next page is
22 0018-0105. There's a particular passage that I would like to read to you
23 and receive your comment on which appears in the first few paragraphs of
24 that entry, and that is the following, the entry says: "All this time I
25 have been working on securing the weapons and cooperating with the Tuzla
1 corps especially General Jankovic and Colonel Nikola Dendzic [phoen]. I
2 categorise Nikola as a good Serb. He promised to help to get to the
3 weapons and we are working on that.
4 As at the 24th of January 1992, were you aware that General
5 Jankovic and Colonel Nikola were working together with the SDS in
7 A. This is the first time I'm seeing this. I'm very surprised that
8 my friend Jankovic as a JNA commander was supplying the SDS with any
10 And secondly, according to my information, in certain situations,
11 Commander Jankovic was, how should I say that, formally a commander, but
12 Nikola Dendzic ^ called the shots.
13 Q. And I'd now like to refer you to a further entry in this diary,
14 and this is an entry for the 17th of January 1992 [sic]. And if you look
15 at those 8 digit numbers again at you could find the 8-digit sequence
16 which is 0018-5117 and the entry continues on through to 0018-5119, and
17 I'd just like to read the following to you. That says here, "That the
18 meeting was attended by commanders Tacic, Lalic, and commanders of troops
19 and platoons. Commanders asked questions about weapons. Tacic tried to
20 avoid answering. He said it should be arranged with Lalic. Lalic is
21 going through the lists and smiling. Then there are the proposals that
22 were set forward by the author Petar Jankovic and that -- they were the
23 following: That Lalic be appointed commander. That a battalion be named
24 Majevicko-Bircanski, the problem of Muslims, the volunteers in Dubrava who
25 are "taking Dubrava from the inside," doesn't develop that any further,
1 and the fourth conclusion is "radio connections issue. I propose that
2 they be uniform." Then it says "Tacic agreed and accepted everything."
3 Eventually it concludes that, "Tacic congratulated me on wise proposals
4 and observations."
5 We can see from the evidence that's been admitted in writing that
6 you are familiar with Colonel Radoslav Tacic. Did you know that he was
7 liaising with the Kalesija SDS in the manner described here as at the end
8 of January 1992?
9 A. I didn't know, and I was very surprised and disappointed by his
10 disloyal linking up with the SDS.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, when you said to the 17th of January in
12 the transcript, I take it that you wanted to refer to the 27th of January.
13 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, that was in error.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. MARGETTS:
16 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, if you could put the diary to one side now and if
17 you could refer to the document which is a handwritten facsimile and
18 that's a facsimile from Petar Jankovic and it's addressed to the attention
19 of Minister Ostojic.
20 Are you aware as at around about March 1992 who Minister Ostojic
22 A. Yes, he was a minister in the government of the Republic of Bosnia
23 and Herzegovina.
24 Q. Do you know what his first name is and do you know whether he
25 continued to be a minister in Bosnia and Herzegovina or alternatively with
1 the Serbian government in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
2 A. He is a minister in the army of the -- he was a minister in the
3 army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina all the way until the war.
4 THE INTERPRETER: In the government, the interpreter's correction,
5 in the government, not the army.
6 MR. MARGETTS:
7 Q. The facsimile reads that "the Serbian people are grateful for the
8 material and moral support in these difficult times. We saw who is loyal
9 and disloyal.
10 "Political and strategic decisions have been coordinated with the
11 corps command and the 4th armoured brigade. I wish you success in the
12 creation of Serbian state in Bosnia-Herzegovina."
13 First of all, were you aware that as at 23 March 1992, Petar
14 Jankovic was coordinating political and strategic decisions with the corps
15 command and could you just describe to the Court who constituted the corps
16 command in the region?
17 A. I did not know and I am very disappointed to find out that the JNA
18 engaged in such cooperation with the SDS because these are
19 unconstitutional activities.
20 Q. And --
21 A. Secondly, as to your question in relation to this command, corps
22 commander was General Savo Jankovic and the chief of staff of the corps
23 was General Rajko Lapcic.
24 Q. The --
25 A. I know a couple of other people, in case you are interested.
1 Q. That's sufficient, Mr. Mehinagic. The next reference is to the
2 coordination of political and strategic decisions with the fourth armoured
3 brigade. In your statement, you've referred to Radoslav Tacic's role as
4 the commander of an armoured battalion and you've referred to Dragan
5 Obrenovic's role as the commander of a unit. Are you aware whether -- are
6 you aware as to the command, who were the commanders of the brigade
7 described as the 4th Armoured Brigade?
8 A. Mr. Radoslav Tacic was a commander of an armoured mechanised
9 brigade which after the withdrawal from Jasta Barsko [phoen], I can see
10 the date here on the 27th of January so, he apparently he was already
11 there but at any rate in the month of January I knew that they had come to
12 the area of Tuzla and his command post was at Paprace. One battalion was
13 deployed in the area, in the broader area of Dubrava airport and one
14 battalion was deployed in the area of Zvornik and another in the area
15 between Zvornik and Bijeljina, so that was the establishment of that
16 brigade, three battalions and about 100 armoured vehicles.
17 The commander of this armoured and mechanised battalion that was
18 stayed in the area of Zvornik was Captain Dragan Obrenovic.
19 Q. The next sentence aid like to write on is "I wish you success in
20 the creation of the Serbian state." That's the concluding sentence in the
21 paragraph referring to the political and strategic decisions being
22 coordinated with the corps command.
23 How do you respond seeing that on a facsimile dated 23 March 1992,
24 that is the sentence, "I wish you success in the creation of a Serbian
25 state in BH"?
1 A. My first impression is that this is profoundly anti- and
3 Q. I'd like to now refer you to the next document - I've finished
4 with that facsimile - and that is a list of payments for the members of
5 the TO of the municipality of Zvornik. Now, just for transcript
6 references, the facsimile was P653 and I'm now referring to P655 which is
7 a list of payments to members of the Zvornik Territorial Defence for April
8 and it records that for April, there are three names who were in combat
9 for 30 days and accordingly are entitled to payment, and the second name
10 on the list there, Dragan Obrenovic. Were you aware that he was part of
11 the Territorial Defence of Zvornik in April 1992?
12 A. I wasn't and all the way until the 8th of April, I was in touch
13 with him, in fact, as a commander of the -- of a JNA battalion. I'm
14 extremely surprised.
15 Q. Now, I've finished with that document. If we can refer now to the
16 interview with Dragan Obrenovic which is P654, and there's a section in
17 this interview which commences with the -- wherein he responds to the
18 question, "What task did your unit have upon its arrival in Zvornik?" And
19 that's on page 2 of the English translation, and I think it's also
20 appearing on the second page of the B/C/S which is 01148237.
21 I'll just refer you to specific matters. Can you confirm that
22 following your arrival here in The Hague, you've had an opportunity to
23 read this article?
24 A. I was shown the article in the course of my proofing for this
25 testimony. I had never seen or heard of it before.
1 Q. Now I just refer you to the opening sentence in his answer to that
2 question, "What task did your union have upon its arriving in Zvornik," he
3 says, "The unit that was under my command came to Zvornik in February 1992
4 from the Dubrava airport near Zuvaniva [phoen]." Were you aware that that
5 was the case?
6 A. There's two things here. First of all, I was the one who, since
7 December of 2001 [as interpreted], kept insisting that the JNA should take
8 over the guarding of these bridges and organise these activities. And,
9 secondly, when Lieutenant Tacic came along with his brigade, General
10 Jankovic sent him to introduce himself to me and establish an official
11 contact, and he brought the captain, Dragan Obrenovic, along and
12 introduced him as a local commander in the area and I came across him on a
13 number of occasions.
14 Q. Then there is a reference to you in the third paragraph, which is
15 the last paragraph in the B/C/S on the left-hand column and it says that
16 he arrived, Obrenovic, at the hotel Jezero. All the elite were there
17 headed by Pasic, Juzbasic, and Izet Mehinagic, it says "Mehinagic pulled
18 many strings behind the scenes, he was quite eloquent and a close friend
19 of the then-Commander of the 17th corps, General Savo Jankovic," and he
20 continues to describe the situation.
21 In your statement at paragraphs 39 to 49, you set out in detail a
22 meeting of the first session of the Council of National Defence. Can you
23 confirm that the reference here by Obrenovic is to that meeting that you
24 refer to in your statement?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. MARGETTS: At this stage, too, I'd just like to move ahead and
2 present to you the document which I think is 18 on the exhibit list. I
3 apologise to my case manager for surprising her with this. That's an
4 excerpt from your diary. Your Honour, if that document could be given
5 a -- an exhibit number.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It will be given a number once it has been
7 distributed. Meal while, Mr. Margetts, may I ask your attention for
8 P655.1, where the translation seems to be incomplete especially the
9 handwriting below the total 39.500 is missing. But I could imagine that
10 that is the same but then in words rather than in digits.
11 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we will attend to that and complete
12 the translation appropriately.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if it's just the same but we could resolve the
14 matter right away. If it could be shown to the interpreters by putting it
15 on the ELMO, then we could perhaps find out whether this is just
16 repetition of the same.
17 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'm informed by the -- my case manager
18 that the interpreters have a copy of this document.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm talking and I'm now addressing the booth or
20 the several booths, that the list for payments to the members of the TO
21 contains some handwritten text below 93.500. Could one of the booths,
22 preferably the English one inform me about what it says, if it's just the
23 number in words.
24 THE INTERPRETER: We can't find the bit.
25 JUDGE ORIE: It then could be shown on the ELMO for one second.
1 Madam Registrar, if you would focus on the bottom and at the right
2 hand. I still don't see the ELMO picture on my screen.
3 THE INTERPRETER: You mean the text right beneath 93.500.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in brackets there is a few words which do not
5 appear in the translation.
6 THE INTERPRETER: That is just the sum of 93.500 in letters.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I thought it would be but -- so
8 let's proceed. There's no need to provide another translation.
9 Ms. Loukas, I take it that with this explanation -- Ms. Loukas, I
10 take it that with this explanation that you will be satisfied that what
11 appears between brackets is just in words the same as the number of --
12 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, yes, Your Honour, my case manager has just been
13 confirming that to me as well.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then let's just proceed.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then the exhibit number to be assigned to the --
17 THE REGISTRAR: The next Prosecution Exhibit, Your Honours, would
18 be P656 and the English translation would be P656.1.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
20 MR. MARGETTS:
21 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, could you please refer you to the document before
22 you and confirm that that's a copy of an extract from your diary that you
23 maintained in April 1992, an extract of your entry for the 6th of April,
24 1992, and I'm referring to Exhibit P656.
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours, I do have the original of the diary
2 with me for inspection by the Defence or by the Bench if you would like to
3 inspect it. Mr. Mehinagic wishes to maintain this as a historical record
4 for himself, but it is available for inspection.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.
6 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour, I'm happy to inspect it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps we could continue at the same time.
8 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, indeed, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please -- and I'd like to have
10 a look at it as well. Give it to Ms. Loukas.
11 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if the next two exhibits could be
12 presented to the witness, that's numbers 16 and 17 in the exhibit list.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The diary is just for -- the only question was
14 identification, that this is the diary of the witness.
15 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the numbers please. I take it you'd
17 prefer to have number 16 on your list first, Mr. Margetts, that would be
18 order dated --
19 MR. MARGETTS: 5 April, 1992.
20 JUDGE ORIE: 5 April 1992. Mr. Registrar, that would be ...
21 THE REGISTRAR: The next Prosecution Exhibit number for the order
22 issued on the 5th of April, 1992 would be P657.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then.
24 THE REGISTRAR: The next, the list of 120-millimetre battery
25 personnel would be Prosecution Exhibit P658.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.
3 MR. MARGETTS:
4 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, in your statement at paragraph 30 you refer to the
5 fact that you obtained information that the mobilisation of the Serbian
6 Territorial Defence had been ordered on the 4th of April, 1992. I'd like
7 to look at the document which is P657 and is a decision of the Crisis
8 Staff of the Serbian municipality dated 5 April 1992 and a signature
9 appears at the bottom of that document.
10 First of all, can you confirm that that is the signature of
11 Mr. Brano Grujic as it is depicted on this document?
12 A. I cannot confirm anybody's signatures but the contents do
13 correspond to the events at the time.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mehinagic. If I could refer you to the next
15 document and that is P658 and that's a list of a 120-millimetre battery
16 crew I refer you to the note at the bottom that the battery crew was
17 active with the JNA from the 4th of April 1992 and it's signed by Dragan
19 First of all, do you know who Dragan Gotovac is?
20 A. Dragan Gotovac has a degree in law. He is currently a lawyer in
21 Zvornik and before the war, he was the president of the municipal branch
22 of the youth organisation. I know him very well. We are not friends
23 really, but he is much younger than me.
24 Q. Referring to this document, and the reference to a 120-millimetre
25 battery crew and it being active with the JNA from 4 April 1992, do you
1 have any information in relation to the activities of this battery crew in
3 A. I was very surprised by the fact that Dragan Gotovac was in this
4 formation and that this formation had at all been established prior to the
5 attack on Zvornik. During the attack on Zvornik, since I had -- I was the
6 one who knew most about the military matters as a civilian, I knew a lot
7 about the weapons employed. And the weapons included the ones mentioned
9 Q. On the 8th of April when you observed the mortar fire on Zvornik,
10 were you able to determine from what type of -- or what type of mortar was
11 being fired?
12 A. Yes, I was able to observe that. As far as the anti-aircraft
13 weapons are concerned, I had done the training for squad leader and I was
14 therefore able to clearly see that 57/2 millimetre anti-aircraft pieces
15 were employed. In this interview, Dragan Obrenovic does confirm that such
16 weapons were deployed around Zvornik.
17 I could distinguish also the fire of the -- the fire from
18 120-millimetre artillery pieces and 82 millimetre pieces. At that point I
19 had the assistant commander of the municipal TO staff of Zvornik with me,
20 Pandur who was also familiar with different weaponry from the experience
21 he had from military drills.
22 Q. You said you could distinguish the fire from a -- 120-millimetre
23 artillery pieces. When you say that do you mean you could observe it at
24 the time?
25 A. Yes.
1 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I've finished with that document. If
2 I could now present the next three documents, they are the ones that are
3 numbered 20 to 22 in the listing. If they could be assigned exhibit
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could you assign numbers to them and
6 at the same time, could I ask whether Ms. Loukas is ready with inspecting
7 the original of the diary?
8 Ms. Loukas, if you put on your headphones then there's a fair
9 chance that you also hear --
10 MS. LOUKAS: That's okay, Your Honour, I was reading your
11 observations on the computer.
12 Your Honour, Mr. Krajisnik wanted to have a look at the diary and
13 I was just going to ensure that he had an opportunity to look at it as
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And once Mr. Krajisnik is finished with it,
16 we'd like to have a look at it.
17 Please proceed.
18 Mr. Registrar, the numbers.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, number 20, the order of General,
21 dated the 10th of April 1992, would be given Prosecution Exhibit P659.
22 Number 21 which is the daily operational report dated 13th April 1992
23 would be given Prosecution Exhibit P660. And the third one which is
24 number 22, the daily combat report dated the 18th April, 1992 would be
25 given Prosecution Exhibit P661.
1 MR. MARGETTS:
2 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, if I could refer first to the document that's been
3 given the number P659, and that's the order of General Savo Jankovic of
4 the 10th of April, 1992, and this a request to carry out combat action on
5 the 11th of April with fighter bombers aiming at Kula in Zvornik and this
6 is to neutralise forces attacking our units.
7 Reading that order, are you familiar with the activities that were
8 taking place in Kula and do you know which forces Jankovic intended to
9 attack with his fighter bombers?
10 A. Based on all the information I received and based on the evidence
11 that could be found at Kula later on, there were no weapons there that
12 would be capable of targeting bridges. This order here explains and talks
13 about the activity of fighter bombers that I was able to see as they were
14 firing upon Kula.
15 Q. So Savo Jankovic has ordered an attack on Kula. What forces was
16 he attacking with fighter bombers?
17 A. On the 10th of April, 1992, there could only have been defence
18 forces of Zvornik and civilians at Kula.
19 Q. The next document I'd like -- I've finished with that document if
20 we could refer to the next document, P660 which is 13 April 1992,
21 Mr. Mehinagic, if I could refer you to the signature on this 13 April 1992
22 daily operative report, and that's the signature of Colonel Bozo
23 Milohanovic, can you confirm that that's the same gentleman that
24 participated in the radio interview that we saw earlier today with you in
25 Tuzla on the 9th of April, 1992.
1 A. Yes, Colonel Bozo Milohanovic was assistant commander for morale,
2 assistant commander of the corps.
3 Q. If I could refer you to the item 7 which is the security situation
4 in the territory, it talks about a bus of green berets leaving the SDA
5 headquarters in Tuzla and it says that there should be 6.000 of them
6 gathered. Can you comment on the presence of green berets at Tuzla and
7 the number quoted by Colonel Milohanovic?
8 A. I am not aware of the presence of any green berets at Tuzla and in
9 this period, on the 13th of April, Tuzla had organised columns of vehicles
10 to meet the thousands of refugees fleeing Zvornik so that they would not
11 be forced to walk 50 kilometres. I'm convinced that the number of 60.000
12 is the result of the propaganda that was promoted by its authors.
13 Q. I'm finished with that document. If we could move to P661 and I
14 could refer you to the last paragraph before item 4, and that appears in
15 the middle of page 2 of the English translation, and it appears at the
16 bottom, I believe, or actually it appears at the top of page 2 of the
17 Bosnian translation, this is a top secret daily combat report of 18 April
18 1992 signed by Savo Jankovic.
19 Mr. Mehinagic, in that portion I've referred to, Jankovic
20 states, "In the course of the day, the 336th Motorised Brigade with the
21 units of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik Territorial Defence were
22 engaged in combat activities," and it states "against paramilitary
23 formations, green berets in the Kula grad area."
24 When you see this signed by Savo Jankovic, were you aware at that
25 time of 18 April 1992, that the JNA 336th Motorised Brigades was engaged
1 in combat activities with the units of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik
2 Territorial Defence?
3 A. Officially, of course, I was not familiar with this, but this
4 official report confirms that the JNA did attack Kula and the town.
5 Q. Do you have any comment to make in respect of the fact that this
6 JNA unit is referred to as being engaged in combat operations with the
7 Zvornik TO?
8 A. This was a treacherous relationship because the commander,
9 Colonel Tacic, publicly announced to the people in Zvornik that the JNA
10 was going to defend the town in case it came under attack whilst he was,
11 in fact, on the side of the attackers. I feel pity for him.
12 Q. Mr. Mehinagic -- or in fact, I'll address you in a moment,
13 Mr. Mehinagic. I apologise.
14 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if I could present to the witness the
15 next series of documents, that's documents 23, 24, 25, and 27 on the list.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, Mr. Margetts.
17 MR. MARGETTS: If they could be assigned exhibit numbers, noting
18 that number 25 already has an exhibit number.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Number 23 which is the conclusion on the
21 appointment of the commission for negotiations, dated 20th April 1992,
22 will be given the next Prosecution Exhibit Number P662.
23 Number 24 which is the decision on formation of the municipality
24 of Zvornik in exile, dated 8 May 1992, will be given Prosecution Exhibit
1 Number 26 which is the order --
2 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, number 26 will not be presented, that's a
3 duplication of an earlier exhibit that we had, number 6, I think, so the
4 next one is number 27.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Number 27 which is the decision on the formation
6 of war staff and war secretariat dated 20th May 1992 would be given
7 Prosecution Exhibit Number P664.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 MR. MARGETTS:
10 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, I refer you first of all to a document dated 20
11 April 1992 and headed "Conclusion on Appointment of the Commission for
12 Negotiations," and I note that the members of that commission include, at
13 number 2, somebody referred to as Ljubisa Mauzer, do you have any
14 information about someone referred to as Ljubisa Mauzer?
15 A. I'm very much surprised to see his name in this context because
16 Ljubisa Mauzer was not a resident of the Zvornik municipality at the time
17 at all. I know that later on, he played an important role in the
18 exchanges organised during the war. He was a prominent commander of one
19 of the units of Republika Srpska.
20 After the war, he held a high position in the police of Republika
21 Srpska. Several years ago, he was killed in an assassination carried out
22 in Bijeljina in bright daylight. That's why I actually know him as a man
23 from Bijeljina.
24 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, I'd now like to refer you to the next document
25 which is a proclamation to the population of Zvornik municipality which is
1 a document referred to in your witness statement and it's referred to at
2 paragraphs 80 through to 84 of the witness statement.
3 MR. MARGETTS: I'd just like to read into the record or --
4 although Your Honour, I note the time and I don't have a lot to go through
5 but I think it will take me at least 15 minutes to do so. So I would like
6 to proceed. But how I proceed will depend on whether or not I could seek
7 the indulgence of the Court to take a little bit of the third session
8 today. I apologise for that, given that the earlier indication was we
9 wouldn't go into the third session but some technical difficulties and
10 other matters have been unexpected and caused this slight delay.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's say this is an explanation in part. You've got
12 another 15 minutes after the break, that means that we'll have a break
13 until quarter to 1.00. You'll then have until 1.00 to -- 15 minutes, you
14 said, would approximately do. We start at exactly quarter to 1.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 12.48 p.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts.
18 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 MS. LOUKAS: Just before Mr. Margetts proceeds, Your Honour, I
20 just want to foreshadow that there's a matter on the LiveNote that I want
21 to deal with at some point. But I realise that Mr. Margetts has limited
22 time but I just want to foreshadow I'd like to raise it at a later point.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Margetts.
24 MR. MARGETTS:
25 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, just before the break, one -- I have made an
1 application for slightly more time, and so our time is very restricted, so
2 I need to take you through these documents very quickly. But the document
3 before you which is a proclamation to the population of Zvornik
4 municipality, is that the document that you faxed to the TO, Territorial
5 Defence of Zvornik, and to Radio Zvornik which is referred to in your
6 witness statement and it's at paragraphs 80 to 84?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. And the reference there is to Exhibit P663.
9 I'd now like to turn to the two decisions which are Exhibit P529
10 and Exhibit P664, the first one is dated 28 April and the second one is
11 dated the 20th of May. Mr. Mehinagic, turning first to the one dated 28
12 April, which is P529 and is the "Decision on Forming the TO Command of the
13 Municipality of Zvornik," do you recognise the name Marko Pavlovic as the
14 TO staff commander as being the same person that you referred to in those
15 paragraphs 80 to 84 of your statement?
16 A. Yes, precisely.
17 Q. And again in respect of the next document, Mr. Mehinagic, if I can
18 take your attention to the document 20th of May, 1992, which is P664 and
19 it's headed "Decision on Reorganisation and Creation of Organs of the
20 Provisional Government, the Serbian Municipality of Zvornik." Two names
21 appear in Article 4 and they are the names Marko Pavlovic and Dragan
22 Obrenovic. Are they the people that we have referred to earlier in the
23 evidence that's been presented to the Court today?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, that moves me to the next series of documents. I've finished
1 with those documents, and I'd like to present the series of documents and
2 have exhibit numbers for 28 through 32 noting that the document 31 is
3 already assigned a number P583.
4 Secondly, there is a press article which is not listed on the
5 exhibit list but I have -- we provided a translation earlier to the
6 Defence and I've now provided the Bosnian copy of the press article and
7 the translation to the Defence. I'd like to add that document and for
8 description purposes, I guess if we could add the number 36 to the
9 potential exhibit list and it could record the ERN numbers for the
10 original. 0149760, and for the translation, ET B014-9758, B014-9760.
11 Of course if that document could be given an exhibit number as
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could you please assign numbers, I
14 think we start with the statement the 31st of May, 1992 of the witness.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That would be, Your Honours, Prosecution Exhibit
16 number P665. The next one which is number 29, "report on crimes committed
17 in Zvornik municipality" dated the 16th June 1992 would be Prosecution
18 Exhibit P666.
19 The next number which is number 30, the "report on crimes
20 committed dated 17 June 1992" would be Prosecution Exhibit P667.
21 Number 32 which is the order dated 31st May, 1992 would be given
22 Prosecution Exhibit P668.
23 MR. MARGETTS: And if also the one I've just added which I added
24 as number 36 which had the -- sorry, as number 36 -- I apologise again, I
25 seem to have a different listing than my case manager and she has pointed
1 out to me that my references to 36 are in error and I should be referring
2 to an additional document, number 35, and that description we gave earlier
3 which was of the original ERN B014-9760, if that could be referring to an
4 additional document number 35 and that description we gave earlier which
5 was of the original ERN B014-9760, if that could be assigned an exhibit
7 THE REGISTRAR: Number 35 would be given Prosecution Exhibit
8 number P669.
9 MR. MARGETTS:
10 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, in your statement, you refer to the fact that when
11 you left Zvornik, you formed what was to become an association for
12 refugees, you also established the municipal commission for the
13 investigation of war crimes, and you also formed the Zvornik municipality
14 in exile. And you detail in your statement the fact that refugees came to
15 Tuzla and you received information from them.
16 Now, due to a lack of time I'm not able to go into the substance
17 of the various documents that are before us but if we can just take them
18 in turn, if you could first refer to the statement of 31st May, 1992
19 that's before you and can you confirm that that accurately sets out
20 information you received from refugees that came from Zvornik, and that's
21 Exhibit P665.
22 A. I confirm that it's my statement. It is about one of the first
23 statements taken after the Municipal Committee for the Investigation of
24 War Crimes was set up in the process of reestablishing the municipal
25 authorities and the functioning of the authorities in the municipality of
1 Tuzla. So this is the result of everything I'd heard from the refugees,
2 the civil defence, the members of the Presidency, and others that we
3 managed to hear from and we had meetings on a daily basis and assessed the
4 situation on a daily basis.
5 Q. The next document I'd like to refer to is the press article which
6 is dated 9 June 1992 from the paper the Crni List and you can see that
7 there is a reference there to similar material to the material in the
8 statement, does that set out information you received from the refugees?
9 That's Exhibit P669.
10 A. This article is the result of an official press conference that,
11 on behalf of the municipality of Zvornik, I organised on the 8th of June,
12 1992, and that was two months after the attack on Zvornik.
13 Q. And I'll compress the next two documents that are similar in
14 nature. The one that is assigned the exhibit number P666 is dated 16 June
15 1992 and is addressed to the Presidency of BiH and other recipients and
16 the one that is P667 is dated 17 June 1992, appears to be a description of
17 information you've received in an appeal for help to the Presidency of the
18 republic of BiH.
19 Again, can you confirm that the information set out in these
20 documents is information you received from refugees?
21 A. Yes, from the refugees and the official authorities of the
23 Q. Now, there are two orders, if we could put those documents aside,
24 there are two orders, there's one dated the 28th of May, 1992 and there's
25 one dated the 31st of May 1992. Let's take the first one in date order,
1 and that's the exhibit P583. Both of these documents are signed off by
2 Svetozar Andric. Did you know of Svetozar Andric, and I don't need you to
3 go into detail of how you met him, but if you could inform the Court as to
4 whether you obtained any information about his role in around the middle
5 of 1992.
6 A. I met him from the Territorial Defence Staff for the municipality
7 in Tuzla in conjunction with my duties in this respect. I saw him in the
8 beginning of the war when Republika Srpska units were still being set up
9 and it was a very unpleasant surprise to me, because I had known him quite
10 well beforehand. And afterwards I got information from the media or in
11 other ways relating to his activities until this day.
12 Q. I'd like to refer you to paragraph 6, and paragraph 6 states as
13 follows, and it says, "The moving out of the Muslim population must be
14 organised and coordinated with the municipalities through which the moving
15 is carried out. Only women and children can move out while men fir for
16 military service are to be placed in camps for exchange."
17 In terms of your role in receiving refugees in Tuzla, is that
18 consistent with your observations as to who moved out and who remained in
20 A. This order simply completes the picture as to why all this had
21 happened and why men were left behind and why there were killings
23 Q. The next order which is Exhibit P668 is again reportedly signed by
24 Mr. Andric. It's dated the 31st of May, 1992. In the preamble it refers
25 to a "decision of the Birac Serb autonomous region government which
1 regulates the moving out of the Muslim population from the territory of
3 The refugees you received in Tuzla, were they from the region of
5 A. The region of Birac encompassed part of the municipality of
6 Zvornik as well so it referred to the Zvornik area as well, even though
7 until today I've never seen any documents coming from the government of
8 that so-called region and I don't really know what people were in this
9 so-called government. I did not know.
10 Q. In regard to that, you did see a television programme, I think.
11 Earlier in your evidence, you mentioned where a gentleman by the name of
12 Milic was appointed to a regional authority; if you could confirm with us
13 that that is correct.
14 A. I said that I saw the founding Assembly for that region but
15 afterwards, I saw nothing else emanating from that region or any person
16 carrying out any duties, and Mr. Milic was not a dignitary of the region,
17 he was a just a member, a participant in that Assembly, and he was sitting
18 in the first row.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Mehinagic. I've finished with those documents. If
20 I could now provide to the witness the documents that appear as 33 and 34
21 on the list, that is a transcript of an interview and I'd like to show
22 that interview of Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic and I'd also like the
23 witness to receive the document which is the data on various objects in
24 the region. If those documents could be assigned exhibit numbers.
25 In regard to the video, we will provide a CD of the video and if
1 we could -- if number 35 could be numbered first and the video numbered
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar. I think 35, you're suffering from
4 the same problem you were.
5 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, I'm suffering from the same problem I was five
6 minutes ago.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I noticed that. So you'd first have the data on
8 Vakuf objects in the region of Doboj to be numbered first.
9 MR. MARGETTS: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That would then be, Mr. Registrar ...
11 THE REGISTRAR: That would be, Your Honours, P670.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And then the interview with Krajisnik and Karadzic
13 between January and March 1993 would be P671.
14 THE REGISTRAR: 671.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 MR. MARGETTS:
17 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, do you have before you a document listing various
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. Can you confirm that the mosques described therein, that you
21 observed them prior to April 1992 in the localities that are described in
22 this list?
23 A. Since I was working at the municipal level for a long time, I did
24 visit all those places and so I do know of their existence.
25 Q. Subsequent to the dates that are listed in this table, did you
1 either observe that these mosques were destroyed or alternatively, were
2 you informed by others that these mosques were destroyed?
3 A. After I was told and after the war, I visited all those places and
4 I realised and saw for myself that the mosques had been destroyed.
5 Q. Thank you Mr. Mehinagic.
6 MR. MARGETTS: I'd now like to play a short excerpt of a video to
8 JUDGE ORIE: I then take it that, looking at the clock,
9 Mr. Margetts you used your 15 minutes so let's just do the sequence, and
10 then I may take it that you are finished.
11 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, I just have some questions on the
12 sequence that I'd like to ask the witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, try to limit them to the core questions.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. MARGETTS:
16 Q. Mr. Mehinagic, if you could just view this video that's going to
17 be presented on the screen, it's an interview with Karadzic and Krajisnik
18 conducted by Mr. Risto Djogo which was shown sometime between January and
19 March of 1993. We just have a short excerpt to orient the Court and the
20 witness to the transcript, it is -- the translators as well if you could
21 look to the reference 02:38:04 which is page 29 of the English
23 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, technical difficulties once again have
24 arisen with the playing of this video so we won't be playing the video at
25 this time. But what I will do is I will just refer Mr. Mehinagic to the
1 transcript that I just referred to, and I'm referring to the portion
2 between 02:38:04 and 02:39:07.
3 Mr. Krajisnik is asked by Mr. Djogo in early 1993, "What will
4 happen to Zvornik, one of the many disputed towns and areas according to
5 the Vance-Owen plan?" Mr. Krajisnik says, "We'll have to be realistic
6 about Zvornik because it's now inhabited by our refugees from Zenica and
7 other towns where ethnical cleansing was committed against Serbs."
8 Mr. Krajisnik then proceeds, and he says, "Once Serbs return to
9 Zenica, Muslims will return to Zvornik, Vance and Owen will have to
10 understand that there is a natural migration of people that Serbs fled
11 Zenica and Muslims fled Tuzla and Zenica."
12 Mr. Mehinagic, from your observation was the migration of people
14 A. There was enforced ethnic cleansing whereby Muslims had to leave
15 Zvornik and I can't say anything about Zenica.
16 Q. In your statement which has been admitted into evidence, you refer
17 to the negotiations that took place and the situation in regard to the
18 proposed agreement for division of the Zvornik municipality.
19 Mr. Krajisnik says in this interview that -- the following: "We think
20 that the division of the Zvornik municipality should have been accepted,
21 as was proposed before the war."
22 You've indicated to the Court what your view of the division of
23 the proposed division of the municipality was, what's your view of
24 Mr. Krajisnik's comments? Well, to put it another way, was the proposed
25 division before the war an acceptable proposal?
1 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, this question has already been
2 asked of the witness and there seems to be little point to proceeding with
3 this question. It's just gilding the lily as it were.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Margetts. It seems to use now the system to
5 put a marker somewhere by putting a question two times.
6 Mr. Margetts, the question has been asked, the question has been
7 answered. Please proceed.
8 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour, and I believe similarly,
9 the matters that are referred to in the rest of the quotation of
10 Mr. Krajisnik has also been addressed during the course of the evidence,
11 and I draw Your Honours' attention, and that concludes my questions.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Margetts.
13 Ms. Loukas. Are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
14 We would start tomorrow.
15 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct, Your Honour, situation is that we --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, no, no, no. I -- came to the conclusion that
17 Mr. Margetts would start today, I would start tomorrow.
18 There is just one matter, Your Honour, I referred to --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Is there a matter to be raised in the presence of the
20 witness or ...
21 MS. LOUKAS: No, there's no need for the presence of the witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll inform Mr. Mehinagic that --
23 Mr. Mehinagic, it has been arranged that your examination and
24 cross-examination by the Defence would start tomorrow morning, otherwise
25 we might have gone on for half an hour, not more, but it's more practical
1 to start tomorrow morning.
2 We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning in this courtroom again
3 at 9.00 and I'd like to instruct you that you should speak with no one
4 about the testimony you have given until now and you are still about to
5 give. So I'd like to see you back tomorrow.
6 Madam Usher, could you escort Mr. Mehinagic out of the courtroom.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.
10 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, thank you, Your Honour. Just very briefly, this
11 is a reference to the bottom of page 46, beginning of page 47, bottom of
12 page 46, beginning of page 47 of the LiveNote today. Mr. Margetts
13 referred the witness to a particular document. He asked him about -- Your
14 Honours will note there the question is asked, "Do you know who Petar
15 Jankovic is?" The witness is -- answer is he was the president of the SDS
16 in Kalesija. The next question recites a passage from the document, and
17 then Mr. Margetts asks this question, "As of the 24th of January 1992,
18 were you aware that Jankovic and Nikola were working together with the SDS
19 in Kalesija?"
20 Now, Your Honour, I've examined the portions of the document that
21 have been tendered in evidence to see if that particular nexus could be
22 made. Now, Your Honours, on the whole of the evidence, it may be that
23 Your Honours may or may not take the inference that there was that
24 involvement, but to put that in the question on the basis of the document
25 is, in fact, not correct, because if a person is a functionary of a
1 particular party and there's something in his diary that may or may not
2 lead the court to the inference that there was involvement of the two
3 institutions that are talked about in the question, but to actually put
4 the evidence in the question, as it were, is, Your Honour, in my view,
5 thoroughly objectionable.
6 I took the time to actually go through the portions that
7 Mr. Margetts has put into evidence just so that I wouldn't have a
8 knee-jerk reaction in relation to this, in case unless there was something
9 in the document that might have taken the matter further. But Your
10 Honour, there isn't and I do place an objection to that sort of question.
11 At this point, I guess, it's really basically a marker, but one really
12 shouldn't -- the evidence shouldn't come from the mouth of the Prosecutor,
13 it -- it's quite clear there what the document says and that the inference
14 thereafter is a matter for the Trial Chamber and not a matter to be placed
15 in that leading form on the basis of that document before the witness and
16 that's the matter I put there now, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, any need to respond?
18 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour. It's our position that the
19 document itself and the evidence adduced from the witness relating to the
20 author of the document does, as Ms. Loukas states, leave that inference
21 open to the Trial Chamber and that inference remains open to the Trial
22 Chamber and I don't see Ms. Loukas objecting to that inference being a
23 possible inference, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, that's not what she's doing. I think you
25 might not have fully understood what Ms. Loukas is saying.
1 Ms. Loukas says that if you ask the witness about the awareness of
2 working together immediately following questions about certain documents,
3 that you could only do that if it would be beyond any dispute that from
4 those documents it appears that they were working together, and not to put
5 such a conclusion to the witness, of course hoping that it would confirm
6 that where there's no other basis than the documents, because the witness
7 clearly testified here that he for the first time saw these -- well,
8 that's in his answer that he for the first time saw it.
9 Do you understand, first of all, what the objection was, and also
10 that your response was not fully addressing the matter raised by
11 Ms. Loukas?
12 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, I do understand. I'm now in a
13 position to respond more directly to the issue.
14 The fact is it seems to be an objection to a leading question and
15 the assumptions of evidence in that question, Ms. Loukas is saying, don't
16 exist either in the document or the transcript. It's our position that
17 those -- the assumed facts do exist in the document and in the transcript.
18 If an analysis of the document further -- a reference to -- it has a
19 reference to Mr. Ostojic, a member of the SDS -- sorry, Your Honour I'm
20 moving to another document.
21 So the submission is yes, that we say that the assumed facts
22 existed in evidence and the question is not a leading question insofar as
23 the record already reflected those matters and the question was merely
24 building on that record.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And you're just asking the witness to draw a
1 conclusion from that evidence, isn't it?
2 MR. MARGETTS: What we were asking the question -- what we were
3 asking the witness to do was given the evidence that was on the record
4 from his answers to the previous question, and the document, to tell us
5 whether or not he was aware of the connections that were evident from that
6 evidence in any express, direct way. I think his answer was that he
7 wasn't aware and that has relevance for various reasons and that was the
8 further information we sought from the witness.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not spend too much time on it.
10 Ms. Loukas blames you for asking for an awareness of a fact which,
11 in her view, has not been established until that moment, that makes the
12 question a leading one because if the question suggests a fact to exist
13 which has not been established that's one of the varieties of leading
14 questions. You say it did exist. And then you say also it's relevant to
15 establish whether he was aware of it or not. I do not exactly see yet
16 what the relevance of that is, because from his statement, it may be clear
17 that he was not aware of any such working together. That also means that
18 that at least was a fact which was in evidence as well.
19 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's promise ourselves never to go lose more than
21 three minutes on these kind of issues per day.
22 We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning --
23 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger. I think another matter is -- have
25 the parties received the list of housekeeping matters we will deal with
2 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I have not received it at this
3 stage but I imagine it's awaiting on my e-mail at this point. Whilst I am
4 on my feet, in relation to the previous witness on Monday, I did tender
5 some B/C/S copies of those medical documents and I can just hand up the
6 English copies so that that exhibit can be completed.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes.
8 Mr. Tieger.
9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, I can confirm that the
10 e-mail regarding housekeeping matters was received. I'm on my feet
11 because I'm holding the Brcko dossier which I'd like to tender.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the -- Ms. Loukas, as far as the Brcko
13 dossier is concerned, have you been in a position to review the content of
15 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, Mr. Tieger kindly gave me those
16 documents just before Your Honours came on the Bench and 9.00 a.m. this
18 JUDGE ORIE: So I'd rather wait a second to ask whether there are
19 any objections against ...
20 MS. LOUKAS: So Your Honour, obviously I'd want to have a look at
21 them. I only got them at 9.00 a.m. this morning.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that means that the dossier issue, of course, is
23 a new one, whether you object or not and to what extent you object, we'll
24 hear from you. Could we hear from you, well, let's say not later than
25 after the week we are not sitting?
1 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour, certainly I should have an
2 opportunity during that week to go through the Brcko dossier.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll hear at that moment whether there's any
4 objection against the tendering and against the admission of the Brcko
6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Any further matter to be raised at this moment? If
8 not, we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.21 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 27th day of
11 April, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.