1 Wednesday, 11 May 2005
2 [Closed session]
11 Pages 12938-12968 redacted. Closed session.
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE ORIE: I see we have a second usher as well. I apologise,
17 Mr. Usher.
18 The Chamber was informed about disclosure to Ms. Loukas of
19 Article 68 material on an empty CD. Apart from that, it sounds rather
20 cynical to send an empty CD and say that that's the exculpatory material,
21 if it was exculpatory material, but the Chamber is mainly interested in
22 how to resolve the matter rather than to make a detailed investigation on
23 how it all happened. I take it that the parties -- it was not -- there
24 was no intent involved?
25 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.
1 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour, I don't put forward that there
2 was any intent. There is often these issues with electronic matters.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Gaynor, you were on your feet. Would you like to
4 add something? We are not that much interested in how it went wrong. We
5 take it that everyone does his utmost best not to deliver any empty CDs.
6 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, if I can just clarify very quickly. I was
7 informed of the position just about one minute prior to the beginning of
8 the --
9 JUDGE ORIE: So was I. So let's try to see what would be needed
10 to resolve the matter.
11 MR. GAYNOR: I have a suggestion, Your Honour. I have hard copies
12 in my office of the material. I can, to avoid any printing delays,
13 et cetera, I suggest that I give that to Ms. Loukas now. I previously
14 provided a summary of the main -- the substance of the Rule 68 within this
15 material to Ms. Loukas, so she is aware of basically what the Rule 68
16 issue is.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is the material in English or...
18 MR. GAYNOR: It is in English and B/C/S with translations in both
20 JUDGE ORIE: So it's accessible for Ms. Loukas?
21 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas.
23 MS. LOUKAS: I can indicate, Your Honour, that Mr. Gaynor has in
24 fact prepared a very helpful summary of the relevant material that I have
25 received. It's just this morning I asked my case manager to actually
1 print out the Rule 68 material, and my case manager informed me that the
2 CD was empty.
3 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I understood that had happened.
4 Ms. Loukas, I do understand you get now a hard copy of the material.
5 MS. LOUKAS: Which is very helpful, Your Honour, and I'm much
6 obliged to Mr. Gaynor.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and together with the summary. We will hear from
8 you what would be needed -- of course we have got no idea on whether this
9 Rule 68 material would ask for any further research or investigation.
10 I take it, Mr. Gaynor, that the material was not available to the
11 OTP at an earlier stage?
12 MR. GAYNOR: I can't make that assurance, Your Honour. This
13 material is disclosed out of an abundance of caution. I can assure you
14 that it is overwhelmingly inculpatory. It only goes to the background of
15 the witness. I can -- Ms. Loukas is aware of the specific issues which
16 she might wish to cross-examine the witness on. She might not.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will hear about if any further procedural
18 decisions should be taken on the basis of this unlucky incident.
19 We'll adjourn until five minutes to 11.00. And we could then, I
20 take it, start in closed session again? Yes.
21 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, the Chamber was informed that you'd like
25 to address the Chamber. This effectively is the last day of this week for
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the Krajisnik case. We would very much like to see whether we can finish
2 with the present witness. So if you could please keep it as brief as
3 possible and consider how urgent the matter is you would like to raise.
4 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, the reason I come is precisely
5 because it is the last day, and Your Honour, I have confirmed and
6 discussed with my colleagues that there appears to be no serious
7 difficulty about finishing the witness today. However, of course I will
8 be as succinct as I always am, Your Honour.
9 Your Honour -- and however Mr. Harmon wishes to take that.
10 Your Honour, the first point is this: I've come down in the light
11 to some extent of the exchanges in court yesterday. I, of course, have
12 read the transcript and I see what Mr. Krajisnik had to say, so I came
13 down specifically to see Mr. Krajisnik and to have a word with him. So
14 that, Your Honour, is dealt with in this way, that I'll be seeing
15 Mr. Krajisnik between now and when the Court resumes and we will consider
16 those issues in appropriate depth.
17 Your Honour, the second point is this: I do know that this is a
18 matter not directly within the Trial Chamber's jurisdiction but I also
19 know that occasionally the Trial Chamber is able to assist.
20 Mr. Krajisnik's elder son is coming to see him and taking advantage of
21 this short break. He hasn't seen his -- this particular son for four or
22 five months. He's arriving today. At the moment, the only time that his
23 son can -- who is 25 years old, the only time that he can be fitted in is
24 Sunday morning, and then he's got to leave to go back. Your Honour, if
25 there is any way that Mr. Krajisnik is able to see more of his son, and
1 his son of him of course for that matter, over the next two or three days,
2 and if there is any way that any assistance can be given. I will speak to
3 Mr. McFadden I've only just found out about this problem. I will speak to
4 Mr. McFadden myself to see what we can do, but any help would be very much
5 appreciated, Your Honour. But we do understand the jurisdictional issues,
6 but Your Honour will see how important this is.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar has overheard your observations,
8 Mr. Stewart. I will ask her to see what can be done and if there is any
9 problem to address me so that I can see whether I could assist in
10 achieving any solution.
11 MR. STEWART: We are very grateful for that, Your Honour.
12 And the third point is only this Your Honour, since there is a
13 break coming up, Your Honour, I did -- well, put some and in the end a
14 very specific question and invitation to the Trial Chamber on Wednesday,
15 the 27th of April at close of play, and the Trial Chamber --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're talking about the scheduling order and
17 the three weeks of recess and how to spend that?
18 MR. STEWART: And treating the Defence team as human beings and
19 not machines. Your Honour will recall that particular passage.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. STEWART: And, Your Honour, we would be very grateful to
22 receive a response.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'll receive that response. We worked on
24 that, if it would not have been that some other urgent matters kept me
25 during these breaks busy, it might even have been the case that --
1 MR. STEWART: I understand we all have urgent matters on our plate
2 quite frequently. So I'm obliged, Your Honour
3 JUDGE ORIE: If not today, then at least at the beginning of next
4 week, you would get an answer to that.
5 MR. STEWART: Indeed, Your Honour. If Mr. Harmon would check his
6 stopwatch, I think I managed it.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we could return into closed session. With
8 two ushers that should be possible. And at the same time, once the
9 curtains are down and once we are in closed session, the witness can be
10 brought in.
11 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honour, while the witness is coming in, I wanted
12 to clarify for the record. Your Honour asked me to check two points on
13 the transcript. I will do that. I won't make --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Once we are in closed session.
15 MR. GAYNOR: I suggest that I make the clarification on the next
16 sitting date to make sure it's absolutely right. I don't want to take the
17 time right now.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll leave it to you.
19 MR. GAYNOR: Okay, thank you.
20 [Closed session]
11 Pages 12976-13025 redacted. Closed session.
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, the Defence was due to give their
3 position in respect of the Brcko dossier by last Monday. Mr. Stewart then
4 said he was not ready yet. I asked him whether he could indicate how much
5 more time he would need by this week. Well, this is the end of the week,
6 as far as this Chamber is concerned. Do we know anything about it? If
7 you do not know, there should not be a major problem. It could then
8 perhaps be -- the Chamber could be informed through the Legal Officers by
9 e-mail with a copy to the Prosecution.
10 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. I can indicate that Mr. Stewart
11 and I had discussions in relation to the dossier, and also not just the
12 dossier for that particular municipality but in the sense of it being a
13 template for the other municipalities, and those discussions have not been
14 finalised because we have some suggestions of our own in relation to
15 the -- the dossier concept for each particular municipality, and I think
16 that Your Honour's suggestion in relation to forwarding the response by
17 e-mail perhaps later in the week is the most efficient.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I said later this day, because I think it
19 was Mr. Stewart indicated that it would be by Wednesday. But --
20 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, I see.
21 JUDGE ORIE: If you would please inform the Chamber as soon as
22 possible when you expect to give the Defence position in relation to the
23 Brcko dossier.
24 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any other procedural issue to be raised by
1 the parties at this moment?
2 MS. LOUKAS: Not as far as the Defence is concerned at this point,
3 Your Honour.
4 MR. GAYNOR: Nor for the Prosecution.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will adjourn to the 17th of May in this
6 courtroom at quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.44 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th of May, 2005,
9 at 2.15 p.m.