Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13451

1 Friday, 27 May 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.40 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Before I give an opportunity to the Prosecution to call its next

10 witness, I'd like to deliver a decision. But before doing so, I'll wait

11 until the text is distributed to the booth.

12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, while that's happening, may I

13 reintroduce Mr. Andrej Jonovic. I'm delighted to say he's returned to the

14 fold. The prodigal son returns.


16 MR. STEWART: He's been on the team all this time; it's just

17 that he's been away to a place called London. But we're delighted to --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Well, some people say London is the place for me,

19 isn't it?

20 MR. STEWART: It has been said, Your Honour. I feel it

21 sometimes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome.

23 Then I'd like to deliver a decision. It is a decision on

24 Witness Berko Zecevic. It's a decision on Witness Berko Zecevic pursuant

25 to Rule 92 bis.

Page 13452

1 Witness Zecevic is part of the fifth batch of 92 bis witnesses.

2 The Chamber's decision with regard to this fifth batch will be issued early

3 next week, but a decision regarding Mr. Zecevic has had to be prioritised

4 since the Prosecution indicated that the witness would be available for

5 cross-examination early next week if, of course, the Chamber would decide

6 to call him for cross-examination.

7 In accordance with both the Defence and the Prosecution

8 submissions, the Chamber has decided to admit the requested material into

9 evidence on the condition that the witness appears for cross-examination.

10 The Defence's proposed redactions to the witness statement are not

11 necessary, since the witness will be available for cross-examination.

12 However, the last two paragraphs of the witness statement will not be

13 admitted into evidence and must be redacted.

14 The Prosecution agreed to the suggestion made by the Defence not

15 to admit these last two paragraphs.

16 This concludes the Chamber's decision on Witness Berko Zecevic.

17 Then, Mr. Margetts, are you ready to call your next witness, who

18 appears as a 92 bis witness, for cross-examination?

19 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. And there are no protective

20 measures for this witness.

21 JUDGE ORIE: No protective measures.

22 MR. MARGETTS: And it's the witness Bilal Hasanovic.


24 MR. MARGETTS: Which is reference 82.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it, then, that you'll put just the

Page 13453

1 questions necessary to introduce the material. Yes, of course there's no

2 pseudonym sheet, but I take it that you want to confront him with the

3 statement, then, first and then give him to the Defence for cross-

4 examination.

5 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Hasanovic

7 into the courtroom.

8 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, there's just one matter, and that is

9 there are some contextual documents. I don't know whether the Court would

10 like to receive those prior to the witness's evidence or subsequently.

11 JUDGE ORIE: It depends a bit on what it is and how important it

12 is for the Chamber to have a look at it before we hear the testimony.

13 MR. MARGETTS: The documents are documents prepared by the Serb

14 authorities in the municipality, and they may spark some area of inquiry

15 from Your Honours. That's the only reason I raised it at this stage. From

16 the Prosecution's perspective, we're content either --


18 MR. MARGETTS: -- to introduce it earlier or later.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I take it that you've seen the list of

20 contextual documents from which I do understand that two out of ten are

21 already in evidence. That's P529, tab 322, and P455. Will there be --

22 could we expect any objections to this material?

23 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Then they could be distributed,

25 Mr. Margetts.

Page 13454

1 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. -- at least, I take it, Mr.

4 Hasanovic. Before you give evidence in this court, you're required to make

5 a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and

6 nothing but the truth. The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher,

7 and I'd like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated, Mr.

11 Hasanovic.


13 [Witness answered through interpreter]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, you have been called mainly to be

15 cross-examined by the Defence, where the Chamber has admitted into evidence

16 some statements you've given, but first some questions will be put to you

17 by Mr. Margetts, counsel for the Prosecution, in relation to those

18 statements.

19 Mr. Margetts, please proceed.

20 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour. If we can just attend to

21 the distribution of the documents, as well.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Numbers will be assigned at a later stage.

23 You may proceed, Mr. Margetts.

24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if the witness could be presented

25 with a copy of his ICTY statements of 27 June 1997 and 8 November 2001.

Page 13455

1 These documents have been tendered to the Registrar as part of the 92 bis

2 package in CD format.

3 JUDGE ORIE: That would be, Madam Registrar ...?

4 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit number for the statement dated 8th

5 of November, 2001, will be Prosecution Exhibit P742. The witness statement

6 dated 13 and 27 June 1997 will be Prosecution Exhibit P742A.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

8 MR. MARGETTS: If Mr. Hasanovic could be shown the 1997

9 statement.

10 Examined by Mr. Margetts:

11 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, since you've arrived in The Hague, have you had

12 the opportunity to review this 1997 statement you provided to the ICTY?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Could I refer you to page 3 of the statement, where you refer to

15 the persons who were appointed to regional courts in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

16 and you state that eight out of the ten regional courts were chaired by

17 Serbs. Do you wish to correct that statement, and should that reference,

18 in fact, be to the fact that eight out of the ten regional courts had

19 presidents or public prosecutors who were Serbs?

20 A. Well, in principle this statement is correct. I wasn't going

21 into whether there was one additional person there or one person less, but

22 more -- this is more or less correct, since this information was published

23 in the press at the time.

24 Q. Can I refer you to page 6 of your statement, and in particular to

25 the paragraph that starts: "On the 6th of May, Rajko Koprivica," and

Page 13456

1 continues. And at line 5 of that statement -- of that paragraph, you state

2 that you were asked to go to Sarajevo. Do you wish to correct that

3 reference? And if so, what should that read?

4 A. Instead of "they asked me," it should read "they insisted that I

5 go," or one should perhaps even say that "they ordered me to go."

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hasanovic. Apart from those two corrections, is

7 the content of that 1997 statement true and correct in every particular?

8 A. Yes.

9 MR. STEWART: Well, I thought it had been amended by the

10 subsequent statement.

11 MR. MARGETTS: Yes. Mr. Stewart is perfectly correct, and in

12 fact my question -- I'll withdraw the question, if I could, and refer the

13 witness to the statement of 8 November 2001.

14 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, could you refer to the statement of 8 November

15 2001, wherein various corrections to your 1997 statement are set out.

16 If I could ask you the question again: The 1997 statement that

17 you've just reviewed, and in addition this 2001 statement, do they

18 together, and also the corrections that we've just referred to in court, do

19 they together set out your statement in -- correctly?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, whilst you're referring to this statement from 2001, could I

22 refer you to the lists -- list of mosques that appears in this 2001

23 statement. Apart from the mosques listed there, were there any other

24 mosques that were destroyed in Vogosca?

25 A. Yes. The mosque in Svrake is not listed here, in the village of

Page 13457

1 Svrake, which is part of Semizovac.

2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hasanovic.

3 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours, that concludes my questions.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Margetts.

5 Mr. Stewart, is the Defence ready to cross-examine the witness?

6 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, the Defence will you cross-examine

8 you.

9 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours, unfortunately I did omit to read

10 out the 92 bis summary, and my apologies for that, but if I could be given

11 the opportunity to do that now.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hasanovic, Mr. Margetts will just read a

13 summary of your statement, the statement which has been read by this

14 Chamber. But since the public might not understand what the cross-

15 examination is about, if we -- they have got no idea on the content of your

16 statement. That's the reason why we read it out. It's not your statement,

17 the statement is the one that's on paper.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.

19 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 In 1990, Professor Hasanovic was elected president of the

21 Vogosca municipality. In 1991, around 56 per cent of the population in

22 Vogosca was Muslim.

23 In March 1992, the SDS delegates left the Vogosca Municipal

24 Assembly without any substantial reasons or explanation. The SDS then

25 insisted that Vogosca municipality be divided along ethnic principles.

Page 13458

1 Although the Muslims knew that this could not be achieved, the Muslims

2 participated in negotiations relating to the division in order to gain more

3 time and delay any attack on Vogosca.

4 On 5 April 1992, the conflict in Sarajevo began. In the second

5 half of April, the police in Vogosca were divided.

6 On the 2nd of May, 1992, Semizovac and Svrake were surrounded and

7 shelled. On 4 May 1992, there was an air attack against Semizovac and

8 Svrake. The residents surrendered their weapons, and 472 people, including

9 women and children, were captured. The elderly people and women and

10 children were released after two or three days; however, 200 men were kept

11 in the barracks at Semizovac.

12 On the 6th of May, 1992, Serb representatives, including Rajko

13 Koprivica, approached Professor Hasanovic and demanded that he cross the

14 front lines and attempt to find nine Serbs who had been captured by Muslim

15 forces. They said that they would exchange the captured Muslims in

16 Semizovac for these nine Serbs. On two occasions, Professor Hasanovic

17 attempted to find the captured Serbs without success. Jovan Tintor stated

18 that if anything happened to these nine Serbs, then he would kill all the

19 Muslims in Vogosca.

20 On the 17th of May, 1992, Professor Hasanovic was informed that

21 his life was in danger, and he fled the municipality.

22 217 Muslims have been reported missing from the Vogosca

23 municipality; of those, 117 bodies have been exhumed. 52 others are known

24 to have been killed, and 48 are still considered missing. Most of the

25 Muslim people from Vogosca left the municipality.

Page 13459

1 Thank you, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Margetts.

3 Then, Mr. Stewart, you may proceed with your cross-examination.

4 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Stewart:

6 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, after the November 1990 elections, the position

7 was this, wasn't it, that the SDA won 18 seats in the Municipality

8 Assembly, didn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. The SDS, 15.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And the others took 18 seats.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And that -- those others, one might broadly call them opposition,

15 those 18, they operated as a bloc under the leadership of a Mr. Lazovic.

16 That's right, isn't it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And what was the composition of that bloc of 18 members, in terms

19 of party, nationality?

20 A. Your Honours, as far as I can now remember, nine or ten

21 opposition deputies were of Serbian nationality; whereas, all the others

22 were Muslims, Yugoslavs, et cetera.

23 Q. And you -- you say in your statement - this is paragraph 7 - that

24 -- you refer to Mr. Koprivica as the SDS leader for Vogosca and the

25 president of the Executive Board. Mr. Koprivica died last year, didn't he?

Page 13460

1 A. I don't know.

2 Q. Well, whether it was last year or within the last couple of

3 years, do you know whether Mr. Koprivica has died?

4 A. I don't know. This is the first time I've heard about this.

5 Q. And you say anyway that you and he had a great deal to do with

6 one another, he being the president of the Executive Board.

7 The issues at the time from after the election in November 1990

8 through 1991, included in particular the conflict in Croatia. That's

9 correct, isn't it?

10 A. The conflict in Croatia was one of the issues, among other

11 things, but that was not the main subject of discussion.

12 Q. What was the main subject of discussion, then, between you and

13 Mr. Koprivica?

14 A. The main subject of our discussions concerned issues dealt with

15 by the Vogosca Municipal Assembly. Since we were the individuals with the

16 greatest responsibilities in the Municipal Assembly, and there were really

17 quite a lot of problems, quite a lot of issues, these are the subjects that

18 we would most frequently discuss. Naturally, sometimes there were certain

19 political issues that were discussed, but they were not discussed as

20 frequently.

21 Q. Now, you say that following the elections, the policy -- there

22 was a division of functions within the municipal government. You -- you've

23 said -- this is paragraph 9 of your statement -- that it was only the

24 leading governmental functions which were divided according to party

25 agreement and inside other municipality mercantile, commercial, and

Page 13461

1 financial institutions in Vogosca, the Serbs were in the majority, and

2 you've included in that by a correction administrative institutions.

3 For example, Mr. Hasanovic, is it correct that of the five

4 school directors in Vogosca, four were Muslims and one was -- classified

5 himself or herself as a Yugoslav?

6 A. I can't remember that exactly now. If that is what I've said,

7 then that is correct, that as far as the division of leading functions is

8 concerned in the municipality itself, this was carried out on the basis of

9 an agreement between the SDA and the SDS. As far as other officials and

10 other posts in the Municipal Assembly are concerned, well, these positions

11 were not divided; the staff remained the same. And as far as I can

12 remember, two-thirds of the officials were of Serbian nationality and one-

13 third, roughly speaking, were Muslims -- or rather, Croats.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, before we continue, you're referring

15 to, I take it at least, to a numbered copy of the statement.

16 MR. STEWART: Well --

17 JUDGE ORIE: At least the paragraphs are numbered. The Chamber

18 has been provided with numbered copies for quite some time, but it seems

19 that policy has changed again. It was very helpful to have numbers.

20 Mr. Margetts, is there any reason why we got an unnumbered copy?

21 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I think the thinking was that with

22 the 89(F) statements, the numbered statements were provided, but with the

23 92 bis statements that has not always been the case.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say the originals were tendered. That's

25 understandable.

Page 13462

1 Mr. Stewart, could you please refer to pages and paragraphs on

2 those pages so that the Chamber is better able to follow the cross-

3 examination.

4 MR. STEWART: Well, of course I will, Your Honour.


6 MR. STEWART: I must say I'm slightly amazed that there should

7 have been this change of policy. It was such an obvious practical help to

8 everybody. I hope we shall revert immediately to the practice of having

9 paragraph-numbered statements at all times.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's proceed at this moment.

11 MR. STEWART: Will we be doing that, Your Honour? It's helpful

12 to the Defence, as well as the Trial Chamber. Your Honour, I'm -- I'm

13 asking whether that will be the practice, because it is --

14 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, I've drawn the attention to it that it's

15 helpful, and I take it that whoever is responsible for it will take care

16 that we'll proceed in the most practical way.


18 JUDGE ORIE: But we're not going to interrupt at this moment.

19 I've asked the attention for it, and let's now proceed.

20 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.


22 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, I didn't want to be misleading or tricking you a

23 moment ago. You were under the impression, I think that, the point I put

24 to you about the five school directors actually came from your statement.

25 I want to make it clear it didn't. I'm not saying that you have said that.

Page 13463












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13464

1 You -- you've said you didn't remember. Can we take it you wouldn't

2 dispute the proposition that five -- of the five school directors, four

3 were Muslims and one Yugoslav? You don't say it's not true?

4 A. I won't say that it's not true, but all I can say is that I don't

5 know.

6 Q. You -- you say in your statement - and this is the first

7 paragraph at the top of page 3 - you say: "Even at that time" -- which

8 appears to be immediately after the November 1990 elections -- "Serbs used

9 to complain they were endangered by Bosniaks. They said they were

10 threatened by Bosniaks. They used to repeat this very often in that period

11 leading up to the aggression."

12 Mr. Hasanovic, was it -- did their complaints include not so

13 much physical aggression, but what they felt was unfair exploitation of the

14 Muslim or Bosniak majority in Vogosca? Whether you agree with it or not,

15 was that -- was that among their complaints?

16 A. I think that it is true to say that such complaints were without

17 foundation because the actual situation was quite different. I have

18 already said in my statement that the Serbs mostly had the majority in the

19 leading functions, in the economy, in the industry, not in all fields but

20 in many fields.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, I'd like to stop you. The question

22 was whether the complaints did include the feeling of unfair exploitation

23 and not just physical aggression. Your answer now explains why the

24 complaints were right or wrong, but the question was about what these

25 complaints included. And Mr. Stewart would like to hear from you whether

Page 13465

1 it was physical aggression or physical aggression only, the question was

2 not totally clear in that respect, but at least whether it also included an

3 expression or feeling of being treated unfairly without physical

4 aggression. Could you please answer that question, and may I ask you to

5 concentrate very much on the precise question put to you. Please proceed.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, what I want to say

7 is that no acts of physical aggression were committed by the Bosniaks -- or

8 rather, the Muslims against the Serbs, but I believe that this was just a

9 pretext that the Serbian side used to carry out the act of aggression that

10 subsequently ensued. I don't know if I have been sufficiently clear.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No, you have not answered the question. The

12 question was not whether there was a good reason to complain about physical

13 aggression. The question was whether these complaints were just about

14 physical aggression, right or wrong - it might be the next question - or

15 whether these complaints also included complaints about unfair treatment,

16 exploitation, apart from any physical aggression. So we first are

17 focussing on what these complaints actually were, and perhaps we'll then

18 proceed with whether it had any grounds. But the first question is, Was it

19 just complaints about physical aggression or did it also include unfair

20 exploitation?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that they complained

22 that they were in a position in which they had to hand over some of their

23 posts after the elections. They had to hand over some of their posts to

24 the Bosniaks and to the Croats. It wasn't a matter of complaining about

25 being threatened with acts of physical aggression.

Page 13466

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's an answer to the question.

2 Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

3 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. And is it also correct that shortly after the November 1990

5 elections the Muslim community began to build a mosque in contravention of

6 the zoning plan?

7 A. I'm not aware of any such information. I'm not aware of the fact

8 that the Muslim side started building a mosque, apart from one building in

9 the suburbs of Vogosca at that time or perhaps in 1991, they started

10 building that building. I don't know whether this was done illegally or

11 not; I believe that they had a relevant authorisation. But I do know that

12 at the Assembly we reached an agreement. And since there was no Orthodox

13 church in Vogosca at the time, we agreed to have an Orthodox church built

14 in Vogosca and to have a mosque built in the town of Vogosca, since we

15 didn't have a church and we didn't have a mosque in the town of Vogosca.

16 This decision was taken at one Assembly session. Both decisions were taken

17 at the same Assembly session.

18 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, whether actually, then, it was in contravention of

19 the zoning plan, is it correct that there was a complaint by the Serb

20 community that a mosque was being built by the Muslim -- obviously by the

21 Muslim community in contravention of the zoning plan?

22 A. I do not know that. I don't know what they've complained, but I

23 really don't know what building it could have referred to except for this

24 building that I've mentioned that was -- that the construction had started

25 at that time. But it is a very small building in one of the suburbs,

Page 13467

1 whereas all the other buildings were already in existence except for that

2 one church and one mosque that I've referred to earlier.

3 Q. Was there also a plan to build an Islamic centre in the village

4 of Bradici?

5 A. It's not an Islamic centre. It was just a small mosque, a

6 regular small mosque.

7 Q. Was there a complaint by the Serb community that that was being

8 built illegally?

9 A. I can't recall at this moment whether they complained or not, but

10 the fact that the construction work on that facility did start at that time

11 probably might have been the reason. I mean, this building work started in

12 this one part of the town of Vogosca and somebody must have noticed it, and

13 they might have wondered, How come are they starting to build here now and

14 there was nothing there before. And as to whether there were any documents

15 there and whether there was anyone from the Executive Council presided over

16 by Mr. Koprivica, they could perhaps tell you, because I had no insight

17 into all the documentation at the Municipality of Vogosca.

18 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, is it correct that on the 1st of March, 1992,

19 Muslims set up barricades at Kobilja Glava in the municipality of Vogosca?

20 A. I don't know of such barricades, but it is possible that

21 something resembling barricades, some kind of checkpoints might have been

22 there, but I'm not aware of it.

23 Q. Are you aware that at or very close to that time members of two

24 groups - one called, known as the Green Berets and the other known as the

25 Patriotic League - began to check documents, personal identification, and

Page 13468

1 so on, of Serbs moving around the municipality?

2 A. I think that such groupings did indeed exist. But as far as I

3 know, they checked everybody's documents, of all citizens moving around in

4 the area of Sarajevo.

5 Q. In the particular area of Kobilja Glava, then, you say that

6 members of the Green Berets and the Patriotic League were indiscriminately

7 checking documents of Serbs and Muslims, do you?

8 A. I suppose so.

9 Q. Do you know so or do you suppose so?

10 A. I suppose so. I was not present in the course of such acts.

11 Q. Did you receive or hear of any complaints by Serbs that they were

12 being harassed or discriminated against in this respect by members of the

13 Green Berets and the Patriotic League?

14 A. I can't remember now.

15 Q. You say - and this is the third complete paragraph on page 3 of

16 your statement - as a -- it appears to be a fairly general proposition, the

17 proposition after the elections, the last two sentences. You say: "We

18 were very careful not to create a sort of frustration," -- that was in

19 balancing posts -- "so we tried to resolve everything with discussions and

20 agreements. I believe we really succeeded in that."

21 Mr. Hasanovic, your perception there that you had succeeded in

22 resolving everything with discussions and agreements, was that perception

23 shared by the Serb community?

24 A. I think so, at least on the basis of their statements.

25 Q. Did there come a point, then, at which that perception -- that

Page 13469

1 was not the perception of the Serb community and it was clear that they did

2 not regard everything as resolved by discussion and agreement?

3 A. As to the distribution of roles, I don't think there were any

4 problems there. Problems started cropping up later on after the SDS

5 members left the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca.

6 Q. So what date are we talking about there, then? March 1992?

7 A. I think it was March. I really can't give you a reliable date

8 there, but I think it was March.

9 Q. Do you remember that on the 1st of March a young Muslim boy, a

10 Kenan Demirovic was unhappily killed in Kobilja Glava?

11 A. Kenan Demirovic? Yes. Yes, I do remember that.

12 Q. And that the Serb community held the view that he had been killed

13 -- not deliberately murdered, but he had in fact been killed by Muslim

14 fire? That -- that was their view, wasn't it?

15 A. I remember that event to a certain extent, and I think that the

16 comments coming from the Muslim side were exactly the opposite. That is to

17 say, to the effect that this young man had been killed by Serbs at close

18 range, since there were Serb houses very close to that place, and then they

19 opened fire from those houses in the vicinity, and then he was killed.

20 Probably it is extremely difficult to establish the absolute truth about

21 the event.

22 Q. Well, Mr. Hasanovic, I'm going to say straight away I'm not going

23 to put for your agreement some definitive view on this, but the position is

24 this, wasn't it, that there was -- there was at the very least some

25 reasonable ground for the Serb suspicion that he had been killed by Muslim

Page 13470

1 fire because he was walking through an area where Muslims with weapons were

2 posted, and there was fire from weapons in the area that he was passing

3 through? That's right, isn't it?

4 A. All these are assumptions. And as to the factual truth, well, I

5 think at the time it was extremely difficult to establish that. So both

6 sides stuck to their opinion, and probably it was the background to a

7 certain amount of tension that started mounting between the Serb and the

8 Muslim side.

9 Q. Well, Mr. Hasanovic, I want to get to the nub on this one. The

10 Muslims blamed the Serbs for the killing of this boy; the Serbs blamed the

11 Muslims. Probably nobody will ever know. Is that correct?

12 A. I agree.

13 Q. And it did enormously raise tensions, didn't it, between the two

14 communities?

15 A. Yes, there was a certain amount of tension. I wouldn't say

16 "enormous tension," but there was some considerable tension because of

17 that.

18 Q. Well, the young boy was buried two days later, on the 3rd of

19 March, and shortly after that Muslims conducted an artillery attack on

20 parts of Vogosca, Blagovac, Hotonj, Krivoglavci. Correct?

21 A. I don't know about that. This is the first time I've heard of

22 it.

23 Q. And very shortly after barricades were set up at the beginning of

24 March by the Muslims. The Muslims demanded the dismissal of a number of

25 Serbs from their offices, including Rajko Koprivica. That's correct, isn't

Page 13471

1 it? Just a reminder, he was the president of the Executive Board.

2 A. There was no official request, in that sense, from the

3 representatives of the Muslim community at the Municipal Assembly of

4 Vogosca. There might have been some individual voices calling for that,

5 but I'm really not aware of that. And I mean, in the last analysis, why

6 would Koprivica be held accountable for an accident like that, which could

7 not have been checked and the facts could not have been established with

8 100 per cent certainty?

9 But if I may add, the barricades you are referring to at Kobilja

10 Glava were simply a response to the barricades set up by Serbs on the 1st

11 of March around the municipality of Vogosca at both exits, in the direction

12 of Sarajevo and Zenica. They set up those barricades there and they

13 remained in place throughout the war.

14 Q. Isn't there on this as well, Mr. Hasanovic, an issue who put up

15 barricades first and who was responding to whose barricades? Isn't that

16 essentially the position?

17 A. I think that to a considerable extent this provides us with an

18 answer to a number of questions or issues which arose later on, precisely

19 after the setting up of those barricades on the 1st of March and the well-

20 known referendum on the occasion of which the citizens of Vogosca voted in

21 favour of a sovereign and independent Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was

22 precisely at that time --

23 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, if you don't mind, I would like to stick to the

24 sequence according to my questions.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, before we -- we are close to a time

Page 13472

1 for a break, but I'd like to ask you, Mr. Hasanovic: You're now giving

2 your opinion on barricades: one in the direction of Sarajevo, at one end of

3 the municipality, and the others on the other side of that municipality.

4 You were asked earlier the following question: Mr. Hasanovic, is it

5 correct that on the 1st of March, 1992, Muslims set up barricades at

6 Kobilja Glava in the municipality of Vogosca? Your answer then was: "I

7 don't know of such barricades, but it is possible that something resembling

8 barricades, some kind of checkpoints, might have been there, but I am not

9 aware of it."

10 It's not easy to reconcile that answer with what you just told

11 us, that there were barricades at the one end of the municipality in the

12 direction of Sarajevo, Kobilja Glava, and at the other end. Would it not

13 have been proper at the question to say, I'm aware that there were

14 barricades but they were, as you know, told us, erected in response of

15 barricades I -- erected somewhere else by the Serbs, rather than saying at

16 the end, "I'm not aware of it"? Because it now turns out that, at least,

17 you have some awareness of barricades, whether or not in response to other

18 barricades. May I ask you, may I direct you to, in answer to questions, to

19 tell us if asked about barricades what you know about them.

20 We'll have a break until 11.00, and I'd like you to think this

21 over during the break.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.

25 Oh, the witness is not in yet. Could you, Madam Usher, escort

Page 13473

1 Mr. Hasanovic into the courtroom.

2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please proceed.

5 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, just to round off from where His Honour's

7 questions left the matter immediately before the break, whatever the

8 reasons, can the Trial Chamber now take it that you do in fact know that

9 Muslim barricades were set up in the vicinity of Kobilja Glava on the 1st

10 of March, 1992?

11 A. Your Honours, it is possible that there might have been a slight

12 lack of precision in my answer because I'm making a distinction between the

13 checkpoints and the barricades. In other words, the checkpoint -- well, a

14 checkpoint is a place where you might have a place being manned by a number

15 of people, armed or unarmed, checking out the passenger and transport

16 movements. On the other hand, barricades are an obstacle to movement,

17 something represented by lorries or some other technical or military

18 equipment. Such a barricade existed as you went out from Vogosca to

19 Hanicovac [phoen], and I had to go through there, through that barricade

20 when it was set up. There were lorries and such like there. And as to the

21 exit road from Vogosca, there wasn't a barricade of that sort, but it was a

22 kind of checkpoint, such a checkpoint which I don't call a barricade, was

23 also set up at Kobilja Glava.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Hasanovic --


Page 13474

1 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, let's stick with precision for the moment

2 then. The answer that you gave, as quoted from the transcript by His

3 Honour, had been: "I don't know of such barricades, but it was possible

4 that something resembling barricades, some kind of checkpoints, might have

5 been there, but I'm not aware of it." So it was quite clear you were

6 telling the Trial Chamber that you were not aware of either barricades or

7 checkpoints. But just to clarify now with precision, you are now saying

8 something different, you'd accept, that you were aware of some sort of

9 checkpoint.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. I'd like to return to the matter I was asking you about, then,

12 about the question of dismissal of -- well, particularly Rajko Koprivica.

13 You said that you were not aware of any official request. You did suggest

14 there might have been some, let me call it, unofficial request. So again,

15 I'm going to just press you for a little precision here, Mr. Hasanovic.

16 Are you aware -- were you aware in March 1992 of any form of request by the

17 Serb community in Vogosca - I beg your pardon - any form of request by the

18 Muslim community for the dismissal of Mr. Koprivica as president of the

19 Executive Committee?

20 A. I can't remember any request of that nature.

21 Q. To perhaps jog your memory, do you recall a suggestion that Mr.

22 Koprivica should be removed and replaced by the same Mr. Miro Lazovic

23 [phoen] that was mentioned earlier in the course of this hearing this

24 morning?

25 A. Such a request simply could not be taken into consideration since

Page 13475

1 Mr. Koprivica and Miro Lazovic were from different political parties.

2 Q. Well, wasn't that --

3 A. And affiliations.

4 Q. [Previous translation continues] -- Mr. Hasanovic? Wasn't that

5 precisely the point, that the Muslim community were suggesting that Mr.

6 Koprivica, an SDS member, should be removed and replaced by Mr. Lazovic,

7 who was in the opposition group?

8 A. Let me just stress once again; I can't remember. It might have

9 been the case, but I don't know at what level, from what side, but I

10 believe that such a request would have been illogical and unjustified, at

11 least at that stage.

12 Q. Well --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, did you ever hear about such a

14 request, formal, informal, whatever level? Did you ever hear someone

15 saying that such a step should be taken?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can't remember that

17 now. Not at all.

18 JUDGE ORIE: But you are giving a lot of -- you say I've never

19 heard about a formal request, then you say it might have been there, then

20 you say, I do not know what level. That's all quite logical for someone

21 who is at least aware that something of that kind has happened. Otherwise,

22 you just might say I've never heard about it. But you're giving a lot of

23 explanation, which suggests, at least, that the thought that such a thing

24 would have happened is not entirely strange to you. So I'd like you just

25 to ask -- I mean, there's nothing wrong or right on it, but I'd just like

Page 13476












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13 English transcripts.













Page 13477

1 to know whether you ever heard, whether you have any knowledge, direct or

2 indirect, of anyone insisting on such a step to be taken.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I must reiterate once

4 again, I don't remember that. But having said that, I can't rule out

5 anything like that having happened.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Of course no one could rule out such a thing. You

7 were asked about what you heard, what you saw, what you are aware of, and

8 not to rule out anything you did not hear, you did not observe, you have

9 not heard of.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.


12 Q. Do you agree, Mr. Hasanovic, that the climate in Vogosca at the

13 time, March 1992, was such that if any such suggestion was made, it would

14 have provoked a -- a vigorous reaction from the Serb deputies in the

15 Municipal Assembly, wouldn't it?

16 A. I don't know what situation you have in mind.

17 Q. Well, Mr. Hasanovic, you were there. The situation I had in

18 mind, just to clarify, was the position with whatever difficulties there

19 were in Vogosca in March 1992. The -- the Serbs would have reacted

20 strongly to such a suggestion, wouldn't they?

21 A. [No interpretation]

22 Q. Pardon? I thought I heard you say "yes" in your own language,

23 Witness, but perhaps --

24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear anything.

25 MR. STEWART: I think it was rather faint.

Page 13478

1 Q. Did you -- can you confirm you had answered my question. I had

2 heard you answer my question "da." Did Your Honour hear that as well?

3 Because I --

4 A. Yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I heard. And I also hear now that the

6 witness confirms it.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.

8 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

9 Q. Of course, Mr. Hasanovic, so that there's no confusion, I am

10 putting to you that it did happen and there was such a vigorous reaction.

11 Does it follow from what you've said that you have no recollection of any

12 such vigorous reaction by the Serb deputies?

13 A. I don't remember.

14 Q. In your statement - and this is the first complete paragraph at

15 page 4 - you say: "The first big conflict inside the Vogosca Municipal

16 Assembly was in March of 1992. The delegates from the SDS party left the

17 Assembly session without any reason or explanation." So just for the

18 moment, just keep that in mind.

19 The next paragraph, the first sentence, you say: "The SDS gave

20 some reasons for leaving the Municipal Assembly."

21 Now, I don't want to be unfair to you, Mr. Hasanovic. When we

22 take together what you're saying there, you are saying that they did give

23 some reasons, but you go on to say as far as you can remember, they weren't

24 at all important reasons. That's what you've said. So can we start with

25 your agreeing that they did in fact give some reasons?

Page 13479

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And whether you regard them as important, whether you regarded

3 them as important or not at the time, what reasons did they give?

4 A. First of all, those are reasons of a political nature,

5 considering that the SDS party members, who were also members of the

6 Assembly, Municipal Assembly, had informed us that they got instructions

7 from their leadership, I don't know whether the party leadership or some

8 other body, I am not sure, that they had to leave the Municipal Assembly of

9 Vogosca. That was the main reason.

10 As to whether it was a justified reason or not, I wouldn't be

11 able to say, but that was the essence of the matter.

12 As far as I can remember, they did not dwell on it too much, but

13 I believe it was the key reason put forward. They got instructions from

14 above.

15 Q. So in your statement where you say the SDS gave some reasons for

16 leaving the Municipal Assembly, but as far as you can remember they were

17 not at all important reasons. So when you gave your statement you regarded

18 the fact that the local deputies had received instructions from somewhere

19 above as not important; is that right?

20 A. I think that the Assembly of both Bosnia and Herzegovina and of

21 Vogosca was based on the Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that

22 according to the Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina, those reasons were

23 not essential, considering the fact that those were requests put forward by

24 one ethnic community whose attitude at that particular time was not based

25 on the provisions of the Constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Page 13480

1 Q. Did the SDS deputies in Vogosca give any local reasons for

2 leaving the Municipal Assembly?

3 A. I can't remember any local requests.

4 Q. So when in your statement you referred to some reasons, and not

5 all important reasons, the "some reasons" is -- is just that single basic

6 reason of some sort of instructions from above; is it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And what you refer to in that same paragraph, the second complete

9 paragraph on page 4 of your statement, "a lot of discussions held on the

10 level of Yugoslavia about constitution of new country," the -- now, Mr.

11 Hasanovic, we've heard lots of evidence in this trial already that the

12 simple position was, wasn't it, the simplified position, that the -- the

13 Serbs didn't wish Bosnia and Herzegovina to leave Yugoslavia, did they?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And was that -- whereas, the Muslim nation took a -- an opposite

16 stance, didn't they?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And that difference was reflected or mirrored as a difference

19 between the communities on the local Vogosca level as well, wasn't it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You say in the next paragraph - that's the third complete

22 paragraph on page 4 of your statement - that "In March 1992 was when the

23 SDS insisted we physically divide Vogosca municipality between the Bosniak

24 side and the Serb side. In the end, the municipality wasn't divided, but

25 they insisted on having discussions on the topic, forming one committee

Page 13481

1 from the SDA party and one for the SDS."

2 Mr. Hasanovic, the insistence on having discussions on the

3 topic, that was a perfectly reasonable and sensible way to approach the

4 issue, wasn't it?

5 A. Presumably the Serb side, on the basis of those claims, wanted to

6 achieve certain political goals. First of all, the division of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina, starting with the division of municipal territories, which was

8 something which we could not in principle agree to, but we accepted to hold

9 talks. We wanted to find out what it was that the other side was insisting

10 on.

11 Q. Well, what I'm putting to you, Mr. Hasanovic, consistently with

12 what you've just said is that the insistence of having discussions about it

13 was entirely sensible and reasonable, wasn't it?

14 A. A discussion, yes.

15 Q. And, in fact, you say Your Honours in the next paragraph, you

16 say: "In a certain formal way, I supported that discussion." What -- when

17 you say "in a certain formal way," Mr. Hasanovic, is -- is the position

18 that you did support the idea of at least having a discussion?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And then you say: "In principle we accepted their energetic

21 insistence on the division." We can take it, can we, that "we" is Muslim

22 community and "their" energetic is Serbs?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So in principle, you accepted their insistence on the division.

25 Are you saying that your acceptance was, in fact, not your true view but

Page 13482

1 was a position adopted by you ostensibly, the position you presented to the

2 Serbs?

3 A. Yes, Your Honour. I feel I need to clarify this point. On a

4 number of occasions representatives of the Serb side came to see me in my

5 office, Slavko Jovanovic in particular, who was my predecessor as the

6 president of the Municipal Assembly, and he tended to accuse me very often

7 that I would be the one to blame if anything happened because we refused to

8 talk about the division. It happened on a number of occasions. And within

9 the SDA party we made the decision to accept the idea of talks to find out

10 what the Serb side was after and to find out whether there was any common

11 ground at all or not. That was our attitude, and on the basis of that

12 attitude we went along with the idea of those talks, and we set up a

13 committee which participated in this entire procedure.

14 Q. When you refer to "three conditions" that you set down, the

15 first, just seeking clarification: "We wanted to agree on arbitration, to

16 arbitrating case of disputes in the division. We suggested the Supreme

17 Court or a United Nations court." That was -- that condition had in mind

18 arbitration by the Supreme Court or a United Nations court in relation to

19 the division of Vogosca, did it?

20 A. Yes, that concerned the division of Vogosca.

21 Q. That was a serious suggestion, was it, that a United Nations

22 court might arbitrate on division of Vogosca?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Your second condition - and that's in the next complete

25 paragraph; it's the fifth complete paragraph on that page - was for "The

Page 13483

1 SDS leadership to give us guarantees." And you're talking about the local

2 SDS leadership in Vogosca there, aren't you, or are you? Which SDS

3 leadership are you talking about there?

4 A. I'm referring to both the local and republican SDS leadership.

5 We requested to be informed of the official position of the BH SDS with

6 regard to that matter, with regard to the issue as to whether the SDS

7 within Bosnia and Herzegovina would agree to having municipalities divided

8 in that manner, Vogosca and other municipalities in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

9 and naturally we did not receive any such agreement from them.

10 Q. So that was a decision that you were imposing, but it obviously

11 wasn't a condition that the local Serb leadership could deliver on their

12 own, could they?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And your third condition, that "if the Cutilheiro Plan was signed

15 we should bring our local agreements in line with that plan." Well, that

16 would have happened automatically, wouldn't it, because the -- do you agree

17 if the Cutilheiro Plan had been signed by all concerned, the Muslim

18 leadership and the SDS, the Serb leadership, that local agreements would

19 have had to have been brought into line with it?

20 A. Yes. In that case, these decisions would have been revoked.

21 Q. And then the next complete paragraph, the one that begins: "We

22 knew that actually such a division couldn't be made." In the second

23 sentence you say: "We wanted to gain time so that the inhabitants could

24 prepare themselves." When you say "we wanted to gain time so the

25 inhabitants could prepare themselves," both the "we" and the "inhabitants,"

Page 13484

1 you're talking about the Muslim community, aren't you?

2 A. Yes, and others, non-Serbs from the area.

3 Q. And "prepare themselves" includes preparation by way of arming,

4 doesn't it?

5 A. Above all, that meant moving the local inhabitants to safer

6 areas. That's what we had in mind.

7 Q. Which included arming, didn't it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Over the page in your statement - that's page 5 - it's the third

10 complete paragraph. You say: "They wanted" -- the Serbs -- "They wanted

11 to divide the police as well, even to accommodate the police in two

12 different buildings. That process started to develop more quickly. The

13 SDA really tried hard to avoid conflict as much as possible. It was a

14 general SDS policy at that time to divide the police. The requests came

15 from the top level down to the municipality."

16 My question here, Mr. Hasanovic, is: What -- what do you

17 personally, from your own direct knowledge, know, if anything, about such

18 requests coming from the top level down to the municipality?

19 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, apologies for interrupting. The

20 transcript appears to be correct at page 32, line 12, but I didn't hear the

21 reference to the "SDA" in that line. I heard a reference to the "SDS." I

22 think Mr. Stewart may have misspoken.

23 MR. STEWART: I could easily have done, but since my misspeaking

24 - thank you, Mr. Margetts - since my misspeaking has apparently been picked

25 up anyway --

Page 13485

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether it is clear in the

2 translation for the witness, as well. So could you please, if there's any

3 doubt, and there seems to be, that at least it's clear to the witness.

4 MR. STEWART: Well, it's even possible that Mr. Margetts misheard

5 me, Your Honour, and I really correctly --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I --

7 MR. STEWART: I can't do anything about it now, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: No, of course. Of course we could start listening

9 to the tapes, et cetera. But let's try to might clear. Yes. Yes. Yes.

10 No, you're invited to --

11 MR. STEWART: I'll repeat it, Your Honour.


13 MR. STEWART: I'll read it again with great care.

14 Q. The -- it's -- it says: "They wanted" -- that's the Serbs

15 obviously. "They wanted to divide the police as well, even to accommodate

16 the police in two different buildings. That process started to develop

17 more quickly. The SDA really tried hard to avoid conflict as much as

18 possible. It was a general SDS policy at that time to divide the police.

19 The requests came from the top level down to the municipality."

20 And my question was: What do you personally from your own

21 direct knowledge know, if anything, about such requests coming from the top

22 level down to the municipality?

23 A. Your Honours, I assume that these requests came from the top SDS

24 level, so the local body in Vogosca, and they pursued the policies of their

25 superiors, although we in the SDA tried to prevent such a division from

Page 13486

1 being carried out because this would have been the beginning of a very

2 difficult and chaotic situation, and even of a wartime situation. And that

3 is what I could tell you about that very briefly.

4 Q. Yes. Mr. Hasanovic --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hasanovic, would you please answer the

6 question. The question was what you know personally about these orders

7 coming from above. You started your answer saying: "Your Honours, I

8 assume that these requests came from the top SDS level." So what Mr.

9 Stewart is trying to find out is on what basis you assume that, whether you

10 have any personal knowledge of such orders, and how they reached from the

11 top to the lower levels. Could you please answer that question, because

12 that was the gist of the question.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, of course, we received such

14 information from the SDS, from representatives of the Serbian side in the

15 Vogosca Municipal Assembly, and that is the information that I had access

16 to and the information I can provide you with here.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Who told you? You say --

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This information was provided by

19 SDS representatives who were in the Vogosca Municipal Assembly as well as

20 their representatives in the police, since the police commander in Vogosca

21 was a Serb.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So I do understand. Could you tell us which

23 representatives, SDS representatives, told you? All of them? One? Two?

24 Five? And who were they?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember the names of

Page 13487

1 those individuals now, but I know that whenever we discussed this problem,

2 they always told us that they had received instructions from the top

3 because these requests weren't made at the are local level. These requests

4 were forwarded from the top, from the SDS, from the Assembly of the Serbian

5 People in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You also referred to SDS representatives in the

7 police, since the police, as you said -- since the police commander, as you

8 said, in Vogosca was a Serb. It's not clear here whether you heard that

9 from the police commander or from any other police officer.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, from the police commander.

11 In fact, I should clarify something else. The chief of the Secretariat of

12 the Interior in Vogosca municipality was a Bosniak; whereas, the police

13 commander was a Serb. That was the result of an agreement after the

14 elections. It was an agreement reached between the SDS and the SDA, and

15 numerous discussions were held in the police station and in the

16 municipality, other political representatives discussed these matters, and

17 these matters were discussed at sessions of the Assembly in the

18 municipality of Vogosca.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, again, quite simple: You said the

20 police commander. Who was that? And did he tell it to you, apart from

21 where he -- just a simple question: Did he say so? And who was that man?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember his name now.

23 That was a long time ago, 13 years ago.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you remember the name of the chief of the

25 Secretariat of the Interior who you said was a Bosniak? Do you remember

Page 13488

1 his name?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember his name either.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.


5 Q. Did you -- you knew of Mr. Krajisnik, did you, at that time, in

6 March 1992?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And did you know what position he held in -- I'm not asking you

9 now, but then in March 1992, did you know what position Mr. Krajisnik held?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And what was that position?

12 A. The president of the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

13 Q. Had you ever -- you'd never met Mr. Krajisnik, had you?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Had you ever even seen him in person?

16 A. I had seen him on television.

17 Q. Do you know the -- do you know the nature of the charges against

18 Mr. Krajisnik in this case?

19 A. Your Honours, I don't know whether it's for me to now interpret

20 the reasons for which charges have been levelled against Mr. Krajisnik.

21 The Prosecutor is familiar with this --

22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... that's not the question.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, the question is whether you know

24 what Mr. Krajisnik is accused of, or at least the nature of what he is

25 accused of.

Page 13489












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Page 13490

1 If you know, please tell us. If you don't know, please tell us

2 as well.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With regard to what happened in

4 the course of the war in Vogosca itself, with regard to what the Serbian

5 forces did, either the military forces or the volunteer forces, the

6 persecution and the killing of individuals, the destruction of private

7 buildings, religious buildings in the municipality of Vogosca, with regard

8 to all these acts, well, I believe that this is what is at stake.


10 Q. Well, Mr. Hasanovic, I'll preface what I'm saying by saying at no

11 point am I inviting you to express any opinion whatever on the validity of

12 the charges against Mr. Krajisnik. In fact, with His Honour's permission,

13 I'm distinctly asking you not to do that. There are only three people in

14 this room and indeed in the world who have the responsibility of making

15 those decisions, and those are Their Honours.

16 The -- but you -- you know, do you, that Mr. Krajisnik is one

17 person, at least, who is charged with being criminally responsible for a

18 wide range of actions in Bosnia and Herzegovina, particularly in 1992,

19 including killings, rapes, actions in detention camps, forced movements of

20 population. You've mentioned, of course, yes, destruction of mosques.

21 That -- that's -- that's enough to give the gist of the case against Mr.

22 Krajisnik. You -- you know, do you, that that's what this case is about?

23 A. Yes, roughly speaking, I do.

24 Q. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, when I say that Mr. Krajisnik is at least one

25 person who is alleged to be responsible for those, I'm going to invite you

Page 13491

1 -- no opinion to be expressed on the charges, Mr. Hasanovic, but I'm going

2 to invite you to tell the Trial Chamber what you, just in a couple of

3 sentences, what you understand to be the basis upon which Mr. Krajisnik is

4 alleged to be responsible for all those matters.

5 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we object to such an opinion being

6 sought from this witness.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour, may I -- well, if necessary, Your

9 Honour, may I indicate why I ask it? It may not be necessary, Your Honour.

10 I -- if I can simply proceed.

11 JUDGE ORIE: No. You are not -- the objection is sustained.

12 This is not a question that can be put to the witness.

13 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, in that case, Your Honour, I

14 really must ask that I am allowed before an objection is sustained to give

15 some explanation as to why I ask the question. That's only elementary

16 fairness.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Why is not of importance, Mr. Stewart.

18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it is. It is of critical importance,

19 Your Honour. It is of critical importance because it is a foundation and

20 an entirely legitimate foundation for reasons that I'm -- if I'm given the

21 opportunity of explaining to the Trial Chamber, I can explain to the Trial

22 Chamber, and it is quite wrong that I should be deprived of such an

23 opportunity.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, the Chamber cannot imagine any reason

Page 13492

1 for such a question; therefore, at this moment the decision stands as it

2 is. But if there would be a total lack of imagination on the side of the

3 Chamber, you'll have an opportunity to explain that to the Chamber once the

4 witness prior to the next break has left the courtroom.

5 MR. STEWART: Well, thank you, Your Honour. I don't allege a

6 total lack of imagination, but I do, Your Honour, suggest a gap, which it

7 would be appropriate for me to take some steps to -- to fill.

8 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.

9 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, do you know that for a short time that Mr. Nikola

11 Koljevic was involved in local politics in Vogosca, a short time in the

12 middle of 1992?

13 A. In the middle of 1992, no, I'm not aware of that.

14 Q. When do you say that hostilities first broke out in Vogosca? And

15 I mean "hostilities" in an active physical sense, some form of fighting,

16 military, paramilitary hostilities.

17 A. Well, with the exception of certain incidents, armed conflict in

18 Vogosca broke out on the 2nd of May, 1992.

19 Q. Do you know that on April the 18th, near the Pretis factory in

20 Vogosca, there was a serious clash between Serb forces and Muslim

21 paramilitaries?

22 A. Yes, I'm aware of the fact. However, the forces were not

23 paramilitary ones, these were regular forces from the BH Territorial

24 Defence.

25 Q. And who was their leader?

Page 13493

1 A. The commander of the TO at the time was Colonel Hasan Efendic.

2 He was officially the commander.

3 Q. And who was Jusuf Juka Prazina?

4 A. I have very little information about Juka Prazina. I know that

5 he had a unit of his own in Sarajevo. As to the kind of the unit

6 concerned, as to whether he was a TO member or whether he was some kind of

7 a maverick, I really don't know. But all I know is that he came to a

8 tragic end.

9 Q. Wasn't he the leader of a Muslim paramilitary group?

10 A. Where exactly? Are you referring to the town of Sarajevo or --

11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

12 A. No.

13 Q. Well, wasn't he the leader of a paramilitary group of Muslims

14 that was involved in this clash near the Pretis factory on April the 18th,

15 1992?

16 A. As far as I know, no, he wasn't.

17 Q. You had heard of him obviously from your answer.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you hear of him in March and April 1992?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do the following names mean anything to you, Mr. Hasanovic:

22 Zeljko Dzeremaja and Dalija Vladusic [phoen]?

23 A. No, I'm not familiar with those names.

24 Q. Branko and Ranko Sikiras?

25 A. Yes, I know those surnames.

Page 13494

1 Q. Milorad and Ranko Spasojevic?

2 A. I think that I came across these surnames in some sort of written

3 documents.

4 Q. Milan Pajdak?

5 A. Likewise.

6 Q. Jovo Zivkovic?

7 A. Likewise.

8 Q. Those are nine names that I have given you, Mr. Hasanovic. Are

9 they not the same nine Serbs referred to on page 6 of your statement in the

10 very long paragraph on that page that begins: "On May the 6th, Rajko

11 Koprivica, president of the Executive Council, Slavko Jovanovic, and one or

12 two other persons came to my house, told me that the BiH Territorial

13 Defence controlling the territory between Kobilja Glava and Hotonj had

14 captured nine Serbs on May the 4th"? Those are those nine Serbs, aren't

15 they?

16 A. Yes. But I can't remember all the names. I can only remember

17 Sikiras. And as for the others, well, I can remember them when one reads

18 out their names for me.

19 Q. Do you now accept that those are, so far as you can remember,

20 those nine Serbs that are talked about in several paragraphs, passages, in

21 your statement?

22 A. Yes, I have a list at home, a list of names.

23 Q. Is one of them the brother of Jovan Tintor's wife?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Which one?

Page 13495

1 A. I don't know which one.

2 Q. On page 7 of your statement, second paragraph, you say: "There

3 were a" -- I think you slightly corrected -- "There were several improvised

4 prisons in the city" -- we're talking about Sarajevo -- "And I couldn't

5 find any names on any of those lists. I did see the name of the brother

6 of" -- it says "Jovo Tintor" but it's the same Tintor -- "Jovo Tintor's

7 wife, though." So you saw the name, but you're now saying you don't know

8 the name?

9 A. I don't recall making a statement to the effect that I had come

10 across the name of Jovan Tintor's brother-in-law anywhere.

11 Q. You better be given the B/C/S version of your statement, then,

12 please, Mr. Hasanovic. You may already have it in hand.

13 MR. STEWART: I don't know whether anybody on the Prosecution

14 side can help us to steer the witness very quickly to the equivalent

15 paragraph.

16 MR. MARGETTS: We'll make our best efforts.


18 Q. You should be able to find somewhere on about the fifth/sixth

19 page of the statement a very long paragraph that starts: "On May the 6th,

20 Rajko Koprivica." Do you -- can you find that to start with? It's about

21 20 lines --

22 JUDGE ORIE: What about page 6, the big paragraph in the middle?

23 MR. STEWART: Well, that's the one I'm -- that's precisely the

24 one I'm talking about, Your Honour. But please remember the witness has

25 the B/C/S version, where the page numbering may be different.

Page 13496

1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the B/C/S version.

2 MR. STEWART: Oh, I'm so sorry, Your Honour. You have the

3 advantage. I just didn't know what page it was on.

4 Q. It's page 6, Mr. Hasanovic. And the particular paragraph -- the

5 particular paragraph is at the top of page 7. We found it now, Your

6 Honour, from Mr. Krajisnik.

7 So the first paragraph on page 7 of the B/C/S is the one that --

8 precisely the one that we're looking at.



11 Q. And you see -- I'm now reading from the English, of course, Mr.

12 Hasanovic, which you're getting in translation, but it should match:

13 "There were several improvised prisons in the city, and I couldn't find any

14 names on any of those lists. I did see the name of the brother of" -- it

15 says "Jovo Tintor," but that's -- can we confirm that's the same person?

16 That's -- that's Jovan Tintor, isn't it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. That's -- so at that time you knew the name because you saw it.

19 So in that list of nine names that I've given you, are you saying now that

20 you don't recognise any of those nine names as being the name of the

21 brother of Jovan Tintor?

22 A. Yes. That name was indeed on the list of nine names that I was

23 given by the representatives of the Serb side at Vogosca. And at the time,

24 I knew that man's name, his first name and his surname, but I can't

25 remember now. I do remember that there was a list and that there was a

Page 13497

1 family name, Sikiras there. So it was a list that was given to me at a

2 later stage by the Serb side because the representatives of the Territorial

3 Defence Staff from Kobilja Glava and Vogosca, they were unable to give me

4 the names. I got the names the next day from the Serb representatives at

5 Vogosca. And I did not say that I found this gentleman that we are talking

6 about somewhere on another list, a list of those arrested in the city

7 itself, in Sarajevo, I mean.

8 Q. And you -- and you met Mr. Tintor personally over this issue,

9 didn't you?

10 A. Yes. There was a meeting with Tintor.

11 Q. And he was angry and upset about his brother-in-law, wasn't he?

12 A. First of all, I remember that Tintor was on that committee for

13 the talks that we had between the SDS and SDA at Vogosca, and I think those

14 talks started after the 18th of April, 1992, but I can't remember exactly

15 whether I had an actual meeting with him at that time. There were several

16 of them from the Serb group at Vogosca that I was in touch with. As to

17 whether Tintor was a part of that group or not, I can't confirm at this

18 stage. But I do know later on when I left Vogosca I had a phone

19 conversation with him in this respect.

20 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, I asked you really a very simple question, that --

21 I said: "Mr. Tintor was angry and upset about his brother-in-law, wasn't

22 he"? Can I -- may I have an answer simply to that question?

23 A. I answered.

24 Q. Well --

25 A. Because obviously through other representatives of the Serb side

Page 13498

1 I did hear that he was angry about it, which is altogether normal and

2 natural. And as to whether I actually did see him and had an actual

3 conversation with him in person at that stage, I can't remember.

4 Q. Who was Boro Pradic?

5 A. What I know about that man was that he was in charge of some kind

6 of independent group at Vogosca, some kind of voluntary group, and in a way

7 he was spreading fear and terror within Vogosca itself. But as far as I

8 can remember, he was also somehow neutral in terms of -- or independent in

9 his actions. So in a way he instilled fear not only into Serbs but into

10 Muslims, as well. And I can confirm that because of the fact that on one

11 day - I can't remember what date it was - he shot at the police commander

12 in Vogosca, who was a Serb. He wounded him, I think in his leg, left or

13 right. And he was lying in the street for as long as half an hour in front

14 of the police station at Vogosca, according to my information, and nobody

15 dared approach him. Afterwards he was taken to hospital in Sarajevo at --

16 he was at Kosevo Hospital, and I visited him there.

17 Q. He was -- he was the leader of a bunch of paramilitaries who were

18 engaged in terrorising out-of-control activity under nobody in particular's

19 direction, wasn't he?

20 A. As to whether he was being under anyone's control or not, I don't

21 know, but the wounding of the police commander seems to indicate that he

22 was indeed independent, because otherwise what sense would it make to wound

23 somebody who's on your side. But as to whether he was a part of any

24 superimposed structure above himself, I don't know.

25 Q. When did you visit him in hospital?

Page 13499

1 JUDGE ORIE: Visit who, actually?

2 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I did understand the testimony to be that the one

4 that was shot at was --

5 MR. STEWART: Oh, I'm so sorry. I beg your pardon. I --

6 Q. When did you visit the -- the police -- the wounded police

7 commander in hospital?

8 A. I can't remember the date. After the wounding. The next day or

9 two days later. I can't remember.

10 Q. And do you remember that Boro Pradic himself was killed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. In the autumn of 1992?

13 A. I don't know when.

14 Q. And is it correct that the group that was under his leadership

15 had already been dissolved before his death?

16 A. I'm not aware of that.

17 Q. Do you -- do you recall that there were in Vogosca throughout the

18 period of hostilities what are known as weekend fighters?

19 A. I don't know about that.

20 Q. And what I'm putting to you: These are people who -- who came

21 from outside, would come in as the weekend implies, but would come in for

22 two or three days perhaps, cause trouble, perpetrate aggression, and then

23 go away again. Do you recall anything like that?

24 A. I heard of such groupings, but as to how they came, in what way,

25 with whose approval, I don't know. Because someone would have had to give

Page 13500

1 them the go-ahead, to first of all come and then leave.

2 Q. But you say in your own statement - this is the top of page 6 of

3 the English, the second paragraph - "Things were very confused." Now,

4 that's an understatement, Mr. Hasanovic, isn't it? Things were extremely

5 confused, disruptive -- or disrupted, with all sorts of fighting going on,

6 with all sorts of groups, Muslims and Serbs in Vogosca in April/May/June

7 1992. That was the position, wasn't it?

8 A. Well, I'm referring to the situation up until the 2nd of May,

9 1992. Up until then, in the area of the municipality of Vogosca, there was

10 no open armed conflict. The situation was extremely tense and very chaotic

11 and difficult. People had stopped working in factories, and the industry

12 was quite well-developed there, and many people used to work in the

13 industry, but everything came to a halt, and people would just sit in the

14 park and comment on what was going on.

15 Q. Do you know that at the same time that those nine Serbs were

16 captured, on May the 4th, that Muslim forces or -- or around the same time

17 Muslim forces had entered an unprotected village of Grahoviste and killed

18 20 civilian Serbs, mostly women?

19 A. All I know is that those nine citizens of Serb nationality were

20 arrested at the village of Grahoviste. And as to the information that

21 either -- before or after the armed forces, the Territorial Defence, or I

22 don't know who else, entered that village and killed 20 people of Serb

23 nationality, is something I had never heard of.

24 Q. And you don't personally know about those nine men being killed;

25 is that correct?

Page 13501

1 A. No, I don't.

2 Q. You've never seen any of them ever again, have you?

3 A. I didn't know any of them in person.

4 Q. Have you ever heard of any of them still being alive since 1992?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Vogosca had its telephone lines and electricity cut off for a

7 substantial period of 1992, didn't it?

8 A. There were occasional power cuts, and that refers to both

9 electricity and the cutting of telephone lines. But afterwards, ever more

10 often actually, it tended to last longer, especially after March.

11 Throughout that period, those power cuts tended to get longer and longer.

12 And on the 2nd of May, the situation was very critical when it came to

13 energy supplies, telephone lines and all that.

14 Q. Was the main water reservoir in -- for Vogosca in Kobilja Glava?

15 A. I don't know exactly. It might be wrong if I say either yes or

16 no. I know that for the most part probably Vogosca got its water supplies

17 from the main source of the River Bosna, below Igman near Sarajevo. And to

18 a certain extent the supplies came from some minor sources in the vicinity

19 of Vogosca itself.

20 Q. There was a reservoir at Kobilja Glava, wasn't there?

21 A. In that case, there must be.

22 Q. Well, are you saying -- you were president of this municipality.

23 Are you saying you don't know whether there was a reservoir in Kobilja

24 Glava?

25 A. It is more of a political role, the president of the

Page 13502












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 13503

1 Municipality, and the executive body is the actual Executive Committee

2 headed by Mr. Koprivica, and they were in charge with all these technical -

3 -

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation]-- matters.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, do you know whether there was a

7 reservoir in Kobilja Glava?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.


11 Q. Was Kobilja Glava under Muslim control throughout the period of

12 hostilities in 1992?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Even if you don't know where there was the reservoir, do you know

15 anything about Muslims cutting off the water supply into any part of

16 Vogosca in 1992?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So as a result of the various answers you've given, if I suggest

19 to you that Muslims in control of Kobilja Glava cut off the water supply

20 from the main reservoir, as a result of all the answers you've given you

21 say, I don't know anything about that; is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Who was Ejup Demirovic?

24 A. I don't know.

25 THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness speak up, please.

Page 13504

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you can remind me a little bit,

2 jog my memory a bit, because I don't know.


4 Q. All right. I'll jog your memory with this: He was the leader of

5 the forces that attacked the village of Grahoviste on the 4th of May, 1992.

6 Does that jog your memory?

7 A. I don't know who was the commander, but I do know who was the

8 commander of the Territorial Staff at Vogosca at the time. And who led

9 this particular group, I don't know. And this name, Demirovic, means

10 nothing to me.

11 Q. So this particular group that was led by somebody whose name you

12 don't know, you do at least know about that group?

13 A. I know of a group of Serbs who were arrested. And who was the

14 leader of that group, I do not know.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, could I just ask you how much time

16 you'd still need for the cross-examination.

17 MR. STEWART: I think about ten minutes perhaps, Your Honour,

18 something like that. It depends on the answers, as always, but something

19 in that order.


21 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we would like to refer to a couple

22 of documents in re-examination, and that may provoke further questions from

23 the --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber very much would like to finish

25 with this witness today. We will have a short break, but I'd first like to

Page 13505

1 ask Madam Usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.

2 [The witness stands down]

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, yes.

5 JUDGE ORIE: It's not entirely clear to the Chamber what the

6 line of questioning -- in what way the line of questioning in cross-

7 examination assists the Chamber. Are you establishing a different picture

8 as to the background of the conflict in Vogosca, or are you actually asking

9 the Chamber to consider that it was -- whatever, what happened in Vogosca

10 was in self-defence or was justified? It's rather unclear to the Chamber.

11 You've got one minute to briefly explain what the relevance of the line of

12 questioning is.

13 MR. STEWART: It's more the first than the second, Your Honour.

14 I can explain --

15 JUDGE ORIE: It's the background.

16 MR. STEWART: Yes. It's the ten-second answer, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: All right. Fine.

18 MR. STEWART: It's a legitimate background --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine. Thank you very much for that answer.

20 Then the next item is that you wanted to explain why you want to

21 ask the witness what he understood to be the basis upon which Mr. Krajisnik

22 was alleged to be responsible for all those matters. You have -- as I

23 said, the Chamber always considers the possibility that it lacks sufficient

24 imagination. You have one minute to explain that and we'll consider it

25 during the break.

Page 13506

1 MR. STEWART: Yes. Your Honour, it's this: The witness gave an

2 answer about orders or directions coming from the top in which he

3 specifically mentioned the Assembly, a point which he'd certainly not

4 mentioned in his statement. And, Your Honour, the purpose of my question

5 is to explore the witness's awareness that the Assembly -- or to the extent

6 to which the Assembly and Mr. Krajisnik's position in the Assembly

7 underlies this case and these charges against Mr. Krajisnik, because that

8 is absolutely capable of casting light on the reliability of the witness's

9 incorporation into his answer of a specific reference to the Assembly as

10 one of the places from which orders or directions from the top may have

11 proceeded.


13 MR. STEWART: And that is directly relevant, Your Honour. The

14 witness's understanding in relation to that matter is -- is a clear

15 foundation of that entirely legitimate exploration of an answer he has

16 specifically given.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give me the line where the witness said

18 that the instructions came from the top so that I can find --

19 MR. STEWART: Yes. It will take a moment to find it because the

20 problem -- I had it there in front of me, Your Honour, when this came up.

21 It's now gone and my team are finding it. It was -- it was at that time

22 when -- immediately before that exchange. So it was about, I don't know,

23 half an hour ago or something like that.

24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we have two references where --


Page 13507

1 MR. MARGETTS: -- this matter was discussed. First page 27,

2 lines 1 to 13.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I see on page 35, lines 3 and 4, where it says:

4 "These requests were forwarded from the top, from the SDS, from the

5 Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina."

6 MR. STEWART: Yes. I think that's the reference almost simply

7 that I had in mind, Your Honour.


9 MR. STEWART: May I just look at it on my screen?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Page 35, line 4.

11 [Defence counsel confer]

12 MR. STEWART: "These requests were forwarded from the top, from

13 the SDS, from the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina."


16 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that's precisely -- that's the very

17 point and the very passage that I was referring to.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that. Thank you for that.

19 Mr. Krajisnik, you've heard Mr. Stewart would need another ten

20 minutes approximately. Would you have any additional questions?

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, Mr. Stewart has

22 already asked me, and I told him that when he is finished I'll be pleased

23 if I have no further questions, but I am undecided to ask questions in case

24 anything is forgotten.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course you -- I can imagine that you do

Page 13508

1 not now know exactly whether, after 10 further minutes of cross-

2 examination, the situation is still the same.

3 Mr. Margetts, how much time would you need to --

4 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd like to present three documents

5 to the witness and -- and receive his comments. Probably 10 to 15 minutes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Ten to fifteen minutes. Because the Chamber very

7 much would like to finish with this witness today.

8 We'll have a break of 20 minutes. We'll start again at ten

9 minutes to 1.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 12.54 p.m.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness

13 into the courtroom.

14 Mr. Stewart, you'll have another 10 minutes, of course,

15 depending on how it develops. And at the same time, the Chamber informs

16 you that you have made your point, that even if the witness does not give

17 many details, that violent clashes in the early stages were certainly not

18 the exclusive domain of one party. Yes?

19 MR. STEWART: And on the other matter, Your Honour?

20 JUDGE ORIE: On the other matter, the ruling stays as it is.

21 You may proceed.

22 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour. May I just pick up where

23 I was.

24 JUDGE ORIE: And also in the next 10 minutes there's no need to

25 go into any further detail on the matter I just mentioned, Mr. Stewart.

Page 13509

1 MR. STEWART: Well, on the answer at page 34, Your Honour, the -

2 - the answer which was the basis of my point, or did Your Honour mean

3 something else?

4 JUDGE ORIE: No, I was saying that there's no need to go much

5 further in the background during the next 10 minutes. And as far as the

6 other matter was concerned, the ruling that the objection was sustained has

7 not changed.

8 MR. STEWART: No, that's what I understood, Your Honour. I

9 wasn't proposing to go any further anyway in relation to the background

10 issue.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine, then.

12 MR. STEWART: But I was understanding that Your Honour is not

13 now suggesting that I can't explore that answer at page 34.

14 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, when you were talking in your evidence about an

15 hour ago, perhaps it was, about local SDS Serb leaders in your municipality

16 receiving instructions from the top, you said: "These requests were

17 forwarded from the top, from the SDS, from the Assembly of the Serbian

18 People in Bosnia and Herzegovina." Now, are you saying that you remember

19 that somebody told you specifically that instructions or requests to local

20 Serb leaders in Vogosca had been received from the Assembly of the Serb

21 People in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

22 A. Your Honour, before I answer the question, if you will allow me,

23 I would like to go back a little. I just remembered the persons that you

24 asked me about.

25 MR. STEWART: [Previous translation continues] ... may I ask why

Page 13510

1 the witness should be granted permission to go back a little as opposed to

2 simply answering the question?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hasanovic, if you would first answer that

4 question. But I did understand from what you said that something came into

5 your mind that was dealt with earlier and that it's now clear in your mind.

6 But please first answer the question, and then you'll come back to the

7 other matter.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We received this information from

9 SDS representatives; I can't remember the individuals who told me that. In

10 any case, we did receive reliable information from SDS representatives.

11 They told us that they were instructed to walk out from the Municipal

12 Assembly.


14 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, what I'm asking --

15 JUDGE ORIE: That was not the question, Mr. Hasanovic.

16 MR. STEWART: May --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you could repeat the question, Mr. Stewart.

18 MR. STEWART: May --

19 JUDGE ORIE: But may I ask you to focus very much on what the

20 question is and to answer that question.

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, with respect, I'll slightly rephrase

23 it and try to get it absolutely clear.

24 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, are you saying you remember that somebody told you

25 that a request or instruction had been received in Vogosca from the

Page 13511

1 Assembly of the Serb Republic?

2 A. No. I didn't mention the Assembly of the Serbian People in

3 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I may have mentioned that it was the top of the

4 leadership. However, SDS members told me that they had been instructed to

5 do that by their top leadership. But if we are talking about the Assembly,

6 then I believe that the instructions had come to them from the Assembly of

7 the Serbian People that had been established before that.

8 Q. What is the basis, the factual basis, of your belief that the

9 instructions had come from the Assembly?

10 A. The fact that SDS representatives told us those things in the

11 Municipal Assembly of Vogosca. I don't have any other information; I don't

12 have anything else to give you, no documents to that effect.

13 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, I'm inviting you to make things clear. In an

14 answer you gave just a moment ago, I asked you whether you were saying you

15 remembered that somebody told you a request or instruction had been

16 received in Vogosca from the Assembly. You answered that by saying, "No, I

17 didn't mention the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina. I may have mentioned it was the top of the leadership,"

19 which, if I'm allowed to suggest an understanding, seemed to make it clear

20 that it was top leadership generally and nothing specific about the

21 Assembly. Now you're saying, apparently, that the SDS representatives told

22 you something on which you based your belief that the instructions had come

23 from the Assembly. Now, Mr. Hasanovic, are you saying that you've --

24 you're just make some assumption or inference that top leadership included

25 the Assembly or that there is some specific factual basis for your belief

Page 13512

1 that instructions came from the Assembly? Which -- which of those is it?

2 Is it an assumption or an inference, or do you know something specific that

3 tells you that instructions came from the Assembly?

4 A. I don't have any other information apart from the information

5 that I've already shared with you, and this is what I base my opinion on.

6 Q. So --

7 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you: Did they tell you that it came

8 from the leadership?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they did tell us that it had

10 arrived from their leadership.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Did they give any further specification of that?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We discussed the whole thing, but

13 the details of those discussions escape me at the moment. We were very

14 much interested in this issue of them walking out.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I just want to know whether during such

16 discussions or whether they gave any further details as that they received

17 instructions from the -- as you call it, the SDS leadership. Did they,

18 during these discussions, debate -- did they give any further details; yes

19 or no?

20 THE WITNESS: They told us that they had been given instructions

21 from the top. I don't recall any other details.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That covers the --

23 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.


25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Do you make a difference

Page 13513

1 between the instruction of the SDS and those in the leadership and the

2 higher members of the SDS, those in the higher echelons of the SDS? What

3 distinction do you make there?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, there is a difference, that

5 the SDS is a political party and the Assembly is a legislative body, but

6 there's also coordination between these two bodies, given the fact that the

7 Assembly was the Assembly of the Serbian People. So it would be normal to

8 expect from the SDS, as a political body, to exert a certain influence on

9 the way decisions are made in the Assembly itself.

10 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, despite the injunction only very

11 rarely to intervene on Judge's questions -- but, Your Honour, may I say I'm

12 entitled to intervene when the answer is beyond the scope of what the

13 witness should procedural be giving evidence about.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I leave it to Judge Hanoteau to deal with the

15 matter. I do understand that he would like to continue.

16 Judge Hanoteau, you may do so.

17 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I do have an objection to the

18 answer as it's proceeding now on that basis. Of course --

19 JUDGE ORIE: This will be handled by Judge Hanoteau.

20 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I would like for you to

21 clarify. You have just told us that the instructions came from the top; I

22 would like you to clarify this top. The top, when you say "the top," is

23 this the Assembly or is it the SDS party or is that one in the same thing

24 for you, when you say "the top"?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I include all of the

Page 13514

1 above, all of the bodies that you have mentioned.

2 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Does that mean that you mix the

3 two? When you say that the instructions came from the top, for you this is

4 both the SDS and the Assembly?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't claim for a fact that it

6 was either the SDS or the Assembly, but I believe that there was

7 coordination between the SDS and the Assembly when such decisions were in

8 question. As to who exactly sent these instructions down the line to the

9 lower-level bodies, I don't know. I can only assume. I believe that it

10 was the Assembly if the instruction was sent to the lower-level Assemblies.

11 [Trial Chamber confers]

12 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 JUDGE ORIE: As a general rule in this courtroom, Mr. Stewart

14 and Mr. Harmon, whenever there's any intervening in the question of the

15 Judges, that will be dealt with by the Judge who is putting the question at

16 that moment to the witness. That is just as a general procedural

17 guideline.

18 Here again, Mr. Stewart, there were a lot of beliefs and

19 assumptions in the last and there were also elements that say "I do not

20 know, but". Well, even at a certain moment, I noticed that "I can't claim

21 for a fact." That's clear language.

22 Please proceed.

23 MR. STEWART: The -- Your Honour, I understand the signal, but I

24 was going to ask just one more question here.

25 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, so far as other people in Vogosca told you that

Page 13515












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13 English transcripts.













Page 13516

1 they had received any communication from their top leadership, they didn't

2 tell you whether their top leadership in their minds meant this particular

3 organ or that particular organ or the Assembly or whatever organ of

4 Republika Srpska, did they?

5 A. It is quite possible that they told us at the time. However, as

6 I sit here, I can't remember. It was 13 years ago.

7 Q. Mr. Hasanovic, this might be the opportunity. You were a few

8 minutes ago going to say, I think, that you had recalled something about

9 those -- those men. That was another topic. I stopped you then, but this

10 might be the opportunity for you to come back to it.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, when I invited you to first answer the

12 question of Mr. Stewart, you had something on your mind. Please share it

13 with us.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I was reminiscing on those

15 times, some names came back to me. I don't know whether that is important

16 at this moment. The police commander's name was Boro; I don't remember his

17 family name. And the chief of the Secretariat for Defence was Elvedin, and

18 I believe that his family name was Mehic. This is what I wanted to share

19 with you, the names that I wanted to give you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

21 Any further questions, Mr. Stewart?

22 MR. STEWART: Yes. I'm nearly there, Your Honour.



25 Q. Who was the commander of the TO, Territorial Defence, in Vogosca

Page 13517

1 in April 1992?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. In your statement, on the last page it is in the English version,

4 there's a paragraph that begins: "217 civilians from the municipality of

5 Vogosca." In fact, I think you've corrected the figure to 250. So it's

6 now "250 civilians from the --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. -- municipality of Vogosca have been reported missing as a result

9 of the ethnic cleansing."

10 Now, first of all, is it correct that the -- the reports or the

11 report is a report of a number of civilians missing, rather than a report

12 which includes the statement that it is a result of ethnic cleansing?

13 A. This information was published in a book, the book that was

14 published in 2001. And it describes the events in the territory of

15 Vogosca. The information had been collected by the Institute for the

16 Investigation of War Crimes based in Sarajevo, and this is a state

17 institution in Sarajevo.

18 Q. So what -- when you say in this bit of your statement that 250

19 civilians had been reported missing as a result of the ethnic cleansing,

20 what you're doing there is recording a report of which you are aware, as

21 opposed to your own actual knowledge.

22 A. No.

23 Q. That's -- you agree, do you --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, may I just -- the three professional

25 Judges on this Bench, if they are informed through a testimony about a

Page 13518

1 report where a certain number of people are missing, whether it says

2 "ethnic cleansing" or not, of course the Chamber will understand the

3 "missing" to be in the context of the events that happened in Vogosca. And

4 whether that is ethnic cleansing, yes or no, is of course not established

5 on the basis of a qualification given in such a report. The Chamber will

6 by itself consider whether that's the case, if at all relevant to establish

7 that this was ethnic cleansing or whether you should use other terms or

8 whatever. But I hope that you're confident that this Chamber will not, on

9 the basis of a qualification given in a report it has not yet even seen,

10 say, Well, ethnic cleansing because it says so.

11 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, indeed. And then this

12 witness's -- if you like, this witness's position is one further stage

13 removed. So -- so on that basis, Your Honour, I am sufficiently confident

14 not to explore that.


16 MR. STEWART: If Your Honour just gives me one moment. I think

17 I'm there, but if I may just double-check.

18 Yes, I have no further questions, Your Honour. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.

20 Mr. Krajisnik, do you have any questions for the witness?

21 Because, Mr. Hasanovic, we allow Mr. Krajisnik, who is the accused in this

22 case, to ask additional questions to witnesses if there's any need to do

23 so.

24 Mr. Krajisnik.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Although Mr. Stewart has examined

Page 13519

1 the witness quite thoroughly, I will take the opportunity and put several

2 questions to the witness, and I will try and leave some time for the Trial

3 Chamber as well, as well as the others.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Krajisnik.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Krajisnik:

6 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Hasanovic. We are speaking

7 the same language, which you call Bosnian and I call Serbian, and could you

8 please make a break between my question and your answer so as to allow for

9 a better understanding in the courtroom.

10 I'll start with a somewhat odd question: At one point you said

11 - and you explained how you left Vogosca - and you said that you prayed to

12 God. And as a church-going person, could you please tell us whether you

13 now still believe that it was God who saved you and allowed you to leave

14 Vogosca.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. I'm glad to hear that.

17 Secondly, this makes me believe that you will answer my

18 questions truthfully. You know the late Mr. Izetbegovic. Did you read

19 this book of his?

20 A. No, I didn't.

21 Q. Do you know Mr. Halilovic, who is an indictee here, and are you

22 familiar with his crafty strategics?

23 A. No, I didn't read the book. I'm not familiar with that.

24 Q. Since you haven't read these books, I'm not going to ask you

25 about the contents of these books, but I would like to ask you something

Page 13520

1 about Mr. Izetbegovic, with all due respect to him.

2 When you joined the Presidency to ask for the nine kidnapped

3 Serbs, did you truly want to find them? Was that really your intention?

4 A. Yes, it was.

5 Q. You asked the president of the Commission of the Presidency

6 whether you would be able to find them. Are you convinced that they

7 answered you truly to the best of their knowledge that they didn't know

8 where these Serbs were?

9 A. I believe that they were honest when they said that.

10 Q. Very well, then. Just a small digression here. In our language,

11 we use the word "speculation," which is not a positive thing. In English,

12 that is asking for your opinion. So when I say "speculation", I'm not

13 negative. I am asking for your opinion.

14 I would like you to speculate and say that if you had had an

15 opportunity to talk to Mr. Izetbegovic at the time and if you had asked him

16 to help you ask these nine people, do you think that Mr. Izetbegovic would

17 have done that?

18 A. I am deeply convinced that he would have done that.

19 Q. Can you explain?

20 A. This is why: When I spoke to the members of the commission and

21 when I handed over the information to the Republican Commission for

22 Exchanges of the arrested and killed persons, I did address the office of

23 President Izetbegovic and his daughter, who was the head of his office. I

24 knew her personally because we had taught school.

25 Q. Could you please slow down for the interpreters.

Page 13521

1 A. And I asked her to get involved in the issue and to talk to

2 President Izetbegovic and other people and make sure that those people were

3 found as soon as possible.

4 Q. Again I'm calling for your speculation, that is, for your

5 opinion. Why do you think he didn't do that, although we both believe that

6 he would have done that if he could have? Why do you think he didn't find

7 those people?

8 A. I can't really speculate or anything. I can't assume anything.

9 I don't know whether he had any information about these people and to what

10 extent he took an interest. I really don't know.

11 Q. I do apologise. You said that you were sure that he would have

12 done his best to find them. So you assume that he would have tried to find

13 them.

14 A. Since I am familiar with the ethical principles on the part of

15 Mr. Izetbegovic to the extent that I knew him, I believe that on his part

16 he would have done everything he could in order to find these people.

17 Q. May I put to you a question that I would like you to answer with

18 a yes or no: Are you telling me that Mr. Izetbegovic could not get at that

19 information because there were lots of prisons there, there was a general

20 state of chaos, there was a war going on, and he just could not get that

21 information?

22 A. I can only assume --

23 Q. Yes, speculate. That's correct.

24 A. -- that through his cabinet - and they did it through the

25 competent state committee - insisted for those people to be found.

Page 13522

1 Q. But we're talking about 2 square kilometres here in Sarajevo.

2 It's a small area, maybe 3 or 4 perhaps. It really doesn't matter. Can

3 you confirm it?

4 A. Yeah, it's a bit more. I disagree. We have Ilidza and the city

5 hall and a bit -- it's much, much more than you are saying.

6 Q. Tell me how much.

7 A. I don't know. I can't speculate on that. It is not 100 square

8 kilometres.

9 Q. No. So could Mr. Izetbegovic know what was going on Kladusa,

10 Tuzla, and some other places if we are saying that he could not know what

11 was going on in Sarajevo.

12 A. What he could or could not know is something I can't tell you on

13 his behalf.

14 Q. All right, then.

15 And now, can you speculate on something else?

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik --

17 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Do you know where is Vogosca?

19 May I just finish?

20 JUDGE ORIE: No, you may not finish. For the third or the

21 fourth time you clearly indicated in your question that you're calling for

22 speculation, and you asked questions on facts the witness is aware of, not

23 on speculations.

24 The fact is in relation to the matter you raised is the

25 following: The witness has testified - and it's in his statement - that he

Page 13523

1 sought to find out where the nine Serbs were, that he got the information

2 that they could not be located. The witness now in many questions has said

3 that he believed that a serious effort was made to locate them, and it

4 seems that you want to put to the witness that this might not be actually

5 what was done. But, of course, since it was not the witness who did it but

6 since it was only the witness who received that answer, there are limits in

7 putting to the witness that others had not done what the witness was told

8 they had done. Would you please keep that in mind.

9 Please proceed.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I believe that

11 the witness did what he says he did.

12 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Just one question in this respect: I was just trying to make a

14 comparison. Had Mr. Izetbegovic been sitting at Pale, would he have known

15 what the situation at Vogosca was? And that was my situation, and I

16 believe that you are going to give me a true assessment.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The only thing we could ask the witness, Mr.

18 Krajisnik, is the following: Whether the witness has any knowledge or any

19 reason to know whether Mr. Izetbegovic, if he was in Pale, whether he would

20 know what the situation in Vogosca was. It was -- it's, again, asking for

21 a lot of speculation. You are not entitled to do that.

22 Is it your view that Mr. Izetbegovic was in Pale, Mr. Krajisnik?

23 If not, then it's a hypothetical question, which does not assist the

24 Chamber.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Momcilo Krajisnik was the one

Page 13524

1 who was in Pale. And my question is, when I started talking about what

2 happened in Sarajevo, I wanted the witness, since he is familiar with the

3 situation, to say - because I believe that in spite of and above and beyond

4 of the fact that he said that he would tell the truth, that he -- I wanted

5 him to tell us what he thought I would know what was happening in Vogosca

6 and other places. And I have one more question, because I don't want to

7 waste the Court's time.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Put that next question to the witness. Mr.

9 Krajisnik, what you would have known or would not have known, the Chamber

10 will determine that on the basis of the evidence, and it does not assist

11 the Chamber to hear whether this witness thought it possible that someone

12 at Pale would know something happening at either, 5, 10, 15, 50, or 100

13 kilometres away. That is established and determined on the basis of

14 evidence, rather than on speculation by this witness.

15 Please put your next question to the witness.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Okay. I do apologise. It's two

17 questions, in fact.

18 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Do you know that in these two books -- have you heard of it, I

20 mean -- that they indicate that there were some proposals for exchanging

21 Srebrenica and Vogosca and Zepa?

22 A. I did hear rumours about it. I did not read it in these books,

23 because I haven't read the books, but I did hear about such ideas or such

24 information.

25 Q. Thank you. One more question: You mentioned that you heard that

Page 13525

1 I was at Vogosca following an invitation from some people, and you saw

2 other people visiting Vogosca; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You were the president of the municipality. Have you ever

5 invited me, as the president of the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, to

6 visit Vogosca?

7 A. No.

8 Q. I'm not asking you whether you believe me or not, but I mean,

9 those people who invited me were the ones who received my visits.

10 Just one more question: Who did you exactly see at Vogosca? At

11 what meeting? And in what capacity?

12 A. Apart from Mr. Ostojic, whom I saw in person - I don't know why

13 he was there - I did not see any other people, such as Mr. Koljevic, Mrs.

14 Plavsic, and some others. I simply received that information according to

15 which they occasionally visited Vogosca and were seen as guests in a

16 restaurant between Vogosca and Hotonj in the direction of Sarajevo to the

17 right. But I myself did not actually see them.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I have no

19 further questions. Because I do actually have quite a few questions, but

20 we don't have a lot of time, and I do thank the Trial Chamber.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.

22 Mr. Margetts, would you please keep in mind that we have a few

23 questions, as well.

24 MR. MARGETTS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.

25 If I could present three documents to the witness and if those

Page 13526

1 documents could be given exhibit numbers. The first document is a report

2 for --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

4 THE REGISTRAR: The document dated 06/03 1992 will be P744.

5 The document dated 13/03 1992 will be Prosecution Exhibit P745.

6 The third document, dated 12 November 1992, will be Prosecution

7 Exhibit P746.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.

9 MR. MARGETTS: If Mr. Hasanovic could be shown the document

10 P744.

11 Re-examined by Mr. Margetts:

12 Q. This is a report in relation to the security information in

13 relation to events of the 1st of March, 2nd of March, 3rd, and 4th of March

14 in Sarajevo, and it's compiled by the State Security Service of Sarajevo.

15 Mr. Hasanovic, could you please refer to page 2 of the Bosnian

16 document, and that's the last paragraph at page 2, which in the English is

17 the first paragraph on page 3.

18 This entry in this report reads as follows, Mr. Hasanovic. It

19 says: "It was Serbs who first started setting up barricades, and the

20 largest number of them were set up in a very short time; namely, from 2300

21 hours on 1st of March to 7.30 on 2nd of March. As a reaction and response

22 to these barricades in the morning hours of the 2nd of March, Muslims also

23 set up barricades."

24 Is that consistent with your understanding of what occurred on

25 the late evening of the 1st of March and the early hours of the 2nd of

Page 13527

1 March?

2 A. Yes. Your Honour, according to my information, it all tallies

3 with what is in the document; that is to say, that it was the Serbs who set

4 up the barricades first in reaction to the aforementioned referendum. And

5 secondly, those barricades or checkpoints - and I do know that there were

6 some barricades on the Muslim or Bosniak side, as well - were set up as a

7 result of the barricades having been set up by the Serb forces.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, I explained to the Defence that the

9 background information was, at that point, sufficiently dealt with. The

10 witness has testified that there were, whether we call it barricades or

11 checkpoints, on both sides of the city. There's really no need to go into

12 the matter again because it's not essential for this case whether one party

13 started at 12.00 at night and the other at 2.00 at night or it was just the

14 other way around. That's not essential, I take it also, for your case. So

15 please proceed.

16 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, in that instance, it may be more

17 appropriate, then, if these documents were introduced as contextual

18 documents. Obviously if we could be given an opportunity to draw the

19 Court's attention to those matters we consider relevant. But in light of

20 Your Honour's comments, it may not be necessary for this witness to -- to

21 respond to matters recorded in those documents and inform the Court whether

22 they are consistent or not with his observations of -- of events that took

23 place.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, consistency, of course, with his testimony

25 and with his statement, we can establish that ourselves. I mean, if a

Page 13528












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13 English transcripts.













Page 13529

1 witness testifies that a car is red, and if a report says that it was a red

2 car, then the consistency is really not something you would have to ask to

3 the witness in order to establish that.

4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's be very practical. I take it you have not

6 seen these documents before?

7 MR. STEWART: Well, they were handed to me this morning, Your

8 Honour.


10 MR. STEWART: But may I say we do not have any problem with the

11 suggestion because --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

13 MR. STEWART: -- we all know that this is just a device for

14 putting in documents to ask the witness about consistency.


16 MR. STEWART: And let's cut to the chase and get the documents

17 put straight in.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

19 MR. MARGETTS: And I thank the Defence for that observation.

20 And if we could proceed in that manner.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So what we'll do is these documents are now

22 tendered as contextual documents, and if there's any objection we'll hear

23 after the Defence has had sufficient time to study them.

24 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour. I have no further

25 questions.

Page 13530

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.

2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour.


4 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, I have an objection at some point, Your

5 Honour, but --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know what's practical. I would have

7 a few questions. Do you have any questions triggered by the -- well, the

8 almost-non-questions, but --

9 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, Your Honour. My observation doesn't --

10 it comes after the witness has gone. I'm so sorry.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would have a few questions.

12 Questioned by the Court:

13 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, you testified during these negotiations or

14 during these talks you had on whether or not to split up Vogosca that you

15 were trying to gain time, and you said it was mainly to find a safe place

16 for, could I say, your people, and then were specifically asked also

17 whether you needed time to arm the Muslims. You said yes, that was part of

18 it as well. Could you tell us, if so, how the Muslims did arm themselves

19 during this period.

20 A. Your Honour, that matter of arming the population is a very

21 complex issue. All I can say for the time being is that that was done on

22 the basis of purchases of a certain number of MTS, light armaments, light

23 weapons, rifles, ammunition, and so on, and it was done for the most part

24 through roundabout channels --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I --

Page 13531

1 A. And there were people somehow smuggling those weapons in, and the

2 weapons were rather expensive. The prices were quite steep.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me ask you: Could you give us a rough estimate

4 on how many rifles you obtained in this way to arm your local people.

5 A. I can't give you an assessment because I wasn't involved in that

6 at all.

7 JUDGE ORIE: You may have an impression anyhow, even if you're

8 not involved. I have impressions about a lot of things I'm not involved

9 in.

10 A. I do have an estimate. In the area of Svrake and Semizovac,

11 there were about 200 rifles.

12 JUDGE ORIE: What was the heaviest kind of weaponry you managed

13 to obtain?

14 A. Rifles. We only had rifles, and hand grenades.

15 JUDGE ORIE: That means no mortars?

16 A. We did not have any initially, of course. And afterwards we

17 could get some, and we managed to take some.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you say "afterwards," what time frame are

19 you referring to?

20 A. Except -- I do apologise. When I say "later," what I mean is by

21 the end of April. Some of that type of weaponry was sent to us from the

22 nearby municipality of Visoko. So we had two mortars perhaps, and I don't

23 know how many thousands of bullets, and that's all. And as far as the

24 situation up until the 2nd of May was concerned, the municipality of

25 Vogosca was still in some way not included in these combat or war

Page 13532

1 activities.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No hand-held rockets?

3 A. I don't recall that at all. That's a heavier type of weapon. I

4 don't think so.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Yes. I've got one question to you:

6 Did you ever learn anything about a relationship between Mr. Koprivica and

7 the SDS leadership?

8 A. Yes. Mr. Koprivica told me on several occasions and confirmed to

9 me that he met quite often with SDS representatives. He also told me that

10 he had quite a lot of contacts with Mr. Krajisnik. Krajisnik was a

11 neighbour of ours who lived very close to Vogosca, a few kilometres from

12 Vogosca actually.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And these contacts, did he further explain to you

14 the kind of contacts, the content of it?

15 A. I don't remember.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Did Mr. Koprivica tell you this when you met with

17 him alone, or did he also say these kind of things in the presence of

18 others?

19 A. I don't remember whether he met with him alone or in the presence

20 of others. I had quite regular contacts with Mr. Koprivica because our

21 offices were adjacent and our contacts involved our business contacts, and

22 in those contacts there were such conversations. Amongst other things, he

23 told me what the shape of the future Yugoslavia would be, and he said, "The

24 future shape of Yugoslavia would be determined by how far the Yugoslav

25 People's Army reached." And I remember those words very well, and I quote

Page 13533

1 him.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This is a rather general subject. You're

3 just mentioning the future of Yugoslavia. You did not mention this in your

4 earlier answers about relations with the leadership. May I take it that

5 these conversations you had with Mr. Koprivica did not say anything about

6 contacts with Mr. Krajisnik, in terms of contacts with SDS leadership?

7 A. I apologise. I do not quite understand your question.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps my question was not quite clear. You

9 told us that when the SDS party left the Municipal Assembly, that you were

10 told that they were told by their leadership to do so. May I take it that

11 in these conversations with Mr. Koprivica, not a similar relationship of

12 someone when he talks about the future of Yugoslavia, talking in terms of

13 what the leadership had in mind. Did he ever say anything about his

14 thoughts in relation to what the SDS leadership took as their position?

15 A. Yes. From conversations between the two sides, if I may say so,

16 one could conclude only that they had received instructions from their

17 leadership, from the top; I've already mentioned that. I don't think that

18 they would have done anything had they not received a request or an

19 instruction to that effect.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You say, "One could conclude only." On the basis

21 of what would you conclude such a thing?

22 A. On the basis of conversations of what they told us, their

23 statements. When we asked them why they were withdrawing from the

24 Assembly, what -- what the reason was, they could not give us any

25 justifiable reason that would be applicable to Vogosca municipality and

Page 13534

1 that would motivate them to walk out of the Assembly. And it is this fact

2 that tells me that, in addition to their statements, they also had received

3 instructions from their superiors.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'm now not talking any more about

5 leaving the Assembly but more in general terms, conversations you had with

6 Mr. Koprivica where he told you that he had a lot of contacts with Mr.

7 Krajisnik. Did in these conversations ever -- was there ever discussed the

8 specific, I would say, relation that you heard in the explanations that

9 were given to you about leaving the Assembly? So apart from that, whether

10 that ever in any other conversation with Mr. -- specifically with Mr.

11 Koprivica and specifically in relation to Mr. Krajisnik, whether that ever

12 came up.

13 A. As far as I can remember, we did not discuss anything --


15 A. -- of that sort. He did not provide me with any information as

16 to what the topic of their conversation was. He only told me that they

17 talked on a regular basis, but he never mentioned what was discussed, and I

18 never insisted on him telling me what the topic of their discussion was.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to turn to private session for one second.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 13535











11 Pages 13535-13538 redacted. Private session.















Page 13539

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then is there any very urgent matter at this

25 moment? Because otherwise we'll adjourn. Another Court --

Page 13540

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any very urgent matter?

3 MR. HARMON: Yes, there is, Your Honour. Your Honour had given

4 us an instruction to distribute those dossiers by today.


6 MR. HARMON: We have those dossiers. We're prepared to

7 distribute those, and we can ask Monday for exhibit numbers on that. We

8 just want to inform the Court we're complying with a court order.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear. Does any party insist on

10 distributing them literally at this moment or that they'll be distributed

11 through the building?

12 MR. STEWART: We can live without them for several minutes, Your

13 Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then that has been settled.

15 Any other very urgent matter, Mr. Stewart?

16 MR. STEWART: Nothing, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn but not before having thanked

18 the interpreters.

19 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, apologies, but the move for

20 admission of exhibits for this witness.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But we could do that on next Monday and not

22 ask any further patience from the interpreters and the technicians.

23 No, I thought you were about to join me in thanking the

24 interpreters, Mr. Margetts, and that's certainly what was on your mind, I

25 take it.

Page 13541

1 MR. MARGETTS: Yes. And I do join you in that, Your Honour.

2 MR. STEWART: Of course.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And I know Mr. Stewart --

4 MR. STEWART: So do I, Your Honour. Your Honour, it's implicit.

5 They know how much we appreciate them.


7 MR. STEWART: From time to time no doubt we should say it

8 expressly.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And we also know that sometimes they have even more

10 understanding on Fridays than on any other days. I see at least some

11 smiles and some laughing.

12 Thank you very much. We'll adjourn until next Monday, Madam

13 Registrar, in the afternoon at quarter past 2.00 in this same courtroom.

14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m.,

15 to be reconvened on Monday, the 30th day of

16 May, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.