1 Friday, 10 June 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.52 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. We have a late start due
6 to the technical problems.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. Good morning, Your Honours.
9 This is the case number, IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Krajisnik.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Hannis -- Ms. Loukas, I see that you're on your feet.
12 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. I just want to introduce today to
13 the Court that we have Mr. Andrej Jonovic with us today.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MS. LOUKAS: Our legal assistant.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Welcome, Mr. Jonovic.
17 Mr. Hannis, are you ready to continue the examination-in-chief of
18 Witness Davidovic?
19 MR. HANNIS: I am, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort the
21 witness into the courtroom.
22 MR. HANNIS: When we begin, Your Honour, may I inform him of why
23 we were delayed, or would Your Honour be willing to do that? I don't know
24 if he's aware of --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'll do that.
1 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Davidovic. I first would like to
4 apologise for our late start. It was due to a computer problem, and
5 without that computer we can't review on our screens your testimony;
6 therefore, we had to start late.
7 I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn
8 declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.
9 Mr. Hannis will now continue his examination-in-chief.
10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: MILORAD DAVIDOVIC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Examined by Mr. Hannis: [Continued]
14 Q. Mr. Davidovic, when we left off yesterday, we'd been talking
15 about what you described as the organised looting in Bijeljina. I want to
16 move now to the section in your statement that talks about a special
17 police operation to Bijeljina in July 1992.
18 In paragraphs 73 through 77, you describe how you were instructed
19 to go deal with the problems of paramilitaries in Bijeljina. My question
20 to you is: Having been to the Republika Srpska in May and giving training
21 to people, why wasn't the RS able to handle this problem themselves? They
22 had special units of the MUP?
23 A. I don't know why they didn't want to deal with this themselves,
24 but it was quite obvious that it was a problem that they didn't want to
25 deal with.
1 Q. In your opinion, to your knowledge, did they have the resources,
2 the manpower, and the equipment, to do what you did?
3 A. Yes, yes. Yes, they had the manpower. They had the equipment.
4 They had the resources. And they could have dealt with the problem.
5 Q. Now, in your statement - I'm moving now to paragraph 80 - you
6 describe how the primary paramilitaries that were creating a problem in
7 Bijeljina at that time were Arkan's men and the Red Berets. You told us
8 earlier about when you had first gone to Sarajevo you ran into a group of
9 Red Berets headed by someone named Carli. Were the Red Berets in
10 Bijeljina that same group or a different one?
11 A. The Red Berets that I first met in Sarajevo was an entirely
12 different formation, and there was someone nicknamed Carli who was among
13 them. But when these individuals were in Bijeljina -- well, they weren't
14 deployed in Bijeljina. They were deployed in Brcko. These were
15 Red Berets units headed by Zika, who was also known as Crnogorac or the
16 Montenegrin. They would sometimes go to Bijeljina, cause disturbances,
17 disrupted law and order, and they probably spent some time there when they
18 had time available or when they were looking for something.
19 Q. Was there any connection or relationship between that group of
20 Red Berets and the Arkan's men that were in -- operating in the area at
21 the time?
22 A. They knew each other. They were in contact. But as to the sort
23 of relationship they had, I wouldn't know. I do know that they knew each
24 other and that they did not threaten each other. They did not pose a risk
25 to each other, a danger to each other.
1 Q. This group of Red Berets that we're talking about now, were they
2 associated or affiliated with any government agency?
3 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I -- I object to that question. Number
4 one, it's leading. Number two, if there's to be any evidence of this
5 nature, it's elicited -- it's better elicited, Your Honour, with the
6 witness informing the Court as to what he might know about the topic, as
7 opposed to a question that is formulated in this leading fashion.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied, Ms. Loukas. The witness
9 may answer the question.
10 The question was whether the group of Red Berets that you're
11 talking about, whether they were associated or affiliated with any
12 government agency.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether they were
14 affiliated with a government agency. I know that they had been instructed
15 to go there. The republican MUP in Serbia sent them there. And I know
16 that representatives from Brcko told me that before that they had been --
17 before they had been sent there, they had had talks with Bogdanovic in
18 Serbia. He was the president of the Council for Security of the
19 Presidency in Serbia and he enabled the Red Berets to go to Brcko.
20 Similarly, when these conflicts broke out, when we arrested them
21 and handed them over to go to Serbia, I know that there were problems and
22 I know that Frenki was unhappy and he phoned on two occasions to ask how
23 it was that I had the right to act in this way.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I could ask, then, two additional questions:
25 Who was Frenki?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Frenki was someone from the
2 republican MUP who leaded those units. He was their superior and they
3 reported to him. He was in the police -- secret service and he was one of
4 Mr. Jovica Stanisic's assistants.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have any family name of Frenki?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Simatovic.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the second question is: How do you know
8 that the republican MUP in Serbia sent them there? And "there" is, as far
9 as I understand, the area of Bijeljina.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had been sent to Brcko.
11 That's where they had their headquarters. But sometimes they would go to
12 Bijeljina because it's only 40 kilometres away. But how is it that I knew
13 who they were? Crnogorac -- I took the official identity card from Zika
15 JUDGE ORIE: No. Please listen to the question. The question
16 was: How do you know that they were sent by the republican MUP in Serbia?
17 So how do you know that they were sent by them?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Crisis Staff in Brcko informed
19 me of the fact.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
22 Oh, yes, Judge Hanoteau has a question as well.
23 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. I have the following
24 question I would like to put to you: In order to understand who these
25 paramilitary forces were under, on page 19 of your statement,
1 paragraph 77 -- 76 --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] You said: [In English] "The
4 paramilitaries had initially been invited -- had been invited in by the
5 local Crisis Staffs. All of the regular police not aligned to the Crisis
6 Staff or the SDS had been removed by the Crisis Staff. So the remaining
7 police were really not functioning."
8 [Interpretation] And further on, you say -- a little further on
9 you say: [In English] The Crisis Staffs lost control of them, so the
10 paramilitaries did whatever they wanted, such as killings, lootings, and
11 so on."
12 [Interpretation] So I would like to understand the exact role
13 that the Crisis Staffs had to play, and I would also like to know whether
14 one can continue to confirm that these paramilitary forces were under the
15 MUP. I believe that there is some confusion as far as this matter is
16 concerned and I would like to clear this up.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as Brcko is concerned, there
18 weren't enough police to maintain public law and order, and that is
19 probably the reason for which they had requested that additional forces be
20 sent in in order to establish power there. And the units that came at the
21 request of the local Crisis Staff, which was in charge of the entire
22 situation, they would supervise the situation in the MUP and they would
23 supervise the paramilitary formations that came from outside. Those units
24 were there to assist the staff and to help at the front lines. That was
25 their role. It wasn't their role to act -- to perform police duties.
1 They were to engage in the armed conflict between the opposing sides.
2 That was their role. But when they arrived there, they would first be
3 under the Crisis Staff -- they would be placed under the Crisis Staff, but
4 then they withdrew. They formed their own staff and they did whatever
5 they believed they were allowed to do. And I think that the Crisis Staff
6 then lost control over them. They could no longer control them. It's as
7 simple as that.
8 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So when these paramilitary
9 forces arrived there, they were initially placed under the Crisis Staff.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And later, they liberated
12 themselves from this authority and the Crisis Staff lost control over
13 them. They started to act as an independent force. Is that what you are
14 trying to tell us?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. They started acting as
16 an independent force, and someone had probably authorised them to act in
17 such a way.
18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] What do you mean when you say
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean that the Republic of Serbia
21 MUP was in full control of these formations and instructed them as to how
22 to act.
23 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So they were no longer
24 controlled by the Crisis Staffs but they remained under the control of the
25 MUP, the Ministry of the Interior.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's quite certain. Under
2 the control of the -- of the Republic of Serbia MUP.
3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. And, Your Honours, in connection with
5 the Brcko Crisis Staff and the matter we were just discussing, I would
6 direct you to paragraph 106 and following in his statement, where he does
7 give some details about what you were just asking.
8 Q. Now, we've talked a little bit about the -- the Red Berets that
9 were coming into Bijeljina. Arkan's men, can you tell us, if you know, if
10 Arkan was subordinated to anyone.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just in relation to these questions
12 about who's subordinate to who and what have you, to ask a question of
13 that nature, which on the experience that we've had thus far with a
14 witness tends to result in an assertion, without a basis in evidence or a
15 foundation for that assertion, I would submit is not of a great deal of
16 assistance to the Trial Chamber.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MS. LOUKAS: The evidence is coming out in the form of assertion,
19 without a basis in evidence or a basis for the knowledge of these
20 particular factors that might lead one to an opinion of that nature.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, the Chamber will not -- not give
22 weight to opinions unless there's a good reason to accept that a witness
23 could have an opinion on something which might be relevant.
24 Ms. Loukas, but at the same time, if you start asking about the
25 source of knowledge without even knowing what you're talking about, of
1 course it's very practical to ask the witness a question like this one and
2 then, of course, as is always done - and I would disagree with you that
3 it's usually done unsuccessful - and then to find out exactly what the
4 source of his knowledge is.
5 You may proceed, Mr. Hannis.
6 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour, I take on board what Your Honour
7 has indicated. But as long as a mere assertion --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Of course --
9 MS. LOUKAS: -- just left there.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you may have the experience now that if
11 it's just a mere assertion that, if not the parties, then at least the
12 Chamber always tries to find what the basis of such an assertion is.
13 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And will not just leave it somewhere in the air.
15 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
16 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Davidovic, my question was: Do you -- do you know if Arkan
18 was subordinated to anyone?
19 A. I think that he was subordinated to -- well, partly to the
20 Ministry of the Interior in Serbia, to Mico Stanisic, and I assume that
21 President Krajisnik -- or, rather, Mr. Karadzic were aware of his
22 activities and that he also had to report to the Republic of Serbia MUP
23 because he was allowed to come and go, to transport items, to bring in
24 people, transport weapons, equipment. This -- these items were taken
25 across borders in a totally legal way.
1 Q. What was the basis for your -- your opinion? Anything other than
2 the fact that he was able to transport items across the border?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, can we split up this. There are two
4 issues in the answer of the witness. The first one is the -- being
5 subordinate to the Ministry of the Interior in Serbia. I'd like you to
6 find the source of knowledge for that. And then we come to the second
7 part, which is the knowledge, not subordination, by specifically
8 Mr. Karadzic.
9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
10 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I'm looking at your answer, and you initially said
11 you thought that he was subordinated partly to the Ministry of the
12 Interior in Serbia, and then you said Mico Stanisic. Let me clear that up
13 first. Mico Stanisic, as I understand it, was in the Republika Srpska
14 Ministry of the Interior. Jovica Stanisic was in the Serbian MUP,
15 Republic of Serbia. Can you tell me which Stanisic and which republic you
16 were referring to.
17 A. I have Mico Stanisic in mind, the Ministry -- the Minister of the
18 Interior in the Republika Srpska, because he was familiar with Arkan's
19 activities in the territory of Bijeljina and he knew what he was involved
21 Secondly, when I spoke about the extent to which he was
22 responsible to the republican -- the Republic of Serbia MUP, well, I know
23 that he would cross the borders in a legal way. He would introduce
24 himself. He would show his papers. And he would not be obstructed. So
25 he had received authorisation from the republican MUP to act in such a
1 way, because if you want to cross the border, you have to have the
2 necessary papers. To enter the Republic of Serbia, you also need papers
3 for the goods, for the vehicle, and for weapons too. If you don't have
4 authorisation from the MUP, it wouldn't have been possible for him to
5 function in this way.
6 MR. HANNIS: Judge, I haven't forgotten your request. I'm going
7 to get to the second part in a minute.
8 Q. You said that Mico Stanisic was aware of Arkan's activities. How
9 do you know that he was aware?
10 A. Well, he told me so himself. He said that Arkan's forces were in
11 Bijeljina and Zvornik. And when I was in the Lukavica barracks, when I
12 was in Sarajevo for the first time with Mico Stanisic, he said that
13 Arkan's forces were helping them to liberate territory that they believed
14 should become part of Republika Srpska.
15 Q. And then the second matter I wanted to ask you was: You had
16 indicated earlier in your answer that Radovan Karadzic was -- had
17 knowledge of this. What was your source of information that Mr. Karadzic
18 knew about Arkan?
19 A. Well, Mico Stanisic informed me of that. And on a number of
20 occasions, I was in Sarajevo and Pale and Vrace when contact was
21 established, and the people I was with spoke about this.
22 Q. Did Mico Stanisic tell you anything else about Arkan's presence
23 in the Republika Srpska?
24 A. Nothing special, except that they were engaged there and that
25 they had his approval to help out in the area and that there was agreement
1 amongst themselves that whatever they liberated and took would be an area
2 in which they could do as they liked with any property, any war booty, and
3 that they could use and take anything they felt they could and should. So
4 it would have been their war booty, and that would have been the price to
5 pay for their engagement there, in the area of the Republika Srpska.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. HANNIS: Have I addressed your questions, Your Honour?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I have one additional question in this
9 respect if you've finished with it.
10 Mr. Davidovic, one of your earlier answers was: "And I assume
11 that President Krajisnik -- or, rather, Mr. Karadzic were aware of his
13 Now, you switched from President Krajisnik to Karadzic, and then
14 you said "were aware." You didn't say "was aware" but "were aware." I
15 want to clearly understand your testimony by saying Mr. -- President
16 Krajisnik -- or, rather, Mr. Karadzic, did you intend to say that you have
17 no knowledge of either Mr. Krajisnik or President Krajisnik being aware?
18 So did you exclude him by turning to Mr. Karadzic? Or do I have to
19 understand your testimony in any other way?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not ruling out either of
21 them. Without their knowledge, without that knowledge on the part of both
22 of them, this would not have been possible. I think both Mr. Krajisnik
23 and Mr. Karadzic were fully aware of that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But do you have --
25 [French interpretation on the English channel]
1 JUDGE ORIE: I think we now received some nice French
2 translation. We're back on track in English.
3 But do you have any specific reason -- I do understand your
4 testimony. It could not happen without them knowing about it. But do you
5 have any positive -- any information which positively identifies
6 Mr. Krajisnik as being aware of these events?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must admit I've been asked this
8 before. What can you say about Mr. Krajisnik? I must admit that
9 throughout my work and throughout my experiences, in spite of the fact
10 that this is not a very nice thing to say, I have not managed to spot
11 anything positive about him in the course of his work, in terms of him
12 trying to promote democracy or solve problems. So I must admit I have not
13 a single word of praise I can say about Mr. Krajisnik.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're not asked about whether you like
15 Mr. Krajisnik's character or not. The question is: Where you say that
16 Mr. Krajisnik and Karadzic were aware, whether you have any specific
17 reason to say that, that any -- that you see anything, that you hear
18 anything from themselves? Did you hear anything from someone else? Or is
19 it just that you say, "Well, it could not have been without their
20 knowledge that this happened"? Then it's purely a conclusion of the
21 events, rather than any specific information you received about their
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was directly involved in a number
24 of conversations in Bosnia and in Belgrade where both of them were
25 present, and I was sitting with people -- other people, waiting for talks
1 on the same topic. And Frenki was there and Arkan was there, and I was a
2 witness. I was present in the course of those talks.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you be -- please be more specific. You
4 said you were sitting with people, waiting for talks on the same topic.
5 You're sitting with what people? You told us Frenki and Arkan. Were you
6 sitting with them?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was at Bosanska Vila with
8 Mr. Mico Stanisic, Pero Mihajlovic, and Frenki and Arkan was there as
9 well, and so I was present in the course of the talks. And it was in the
10 beginning of 1992.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Where at that moment was Mr. Krajisnik?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was on the premises of
13 Bosanska Vila. There was an office there, as soon as you go into the
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, how do you link Mr. Krajisnik being present in
16 the Bosanska Vila with any talks on involvement or -- of Mr. -- of Arkan
17 or involved with any talks with Arkan himself, if that happened?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whilst we were there at
19 Bosanska Vila, whilst we were sitting down waiting for those talks, there
20 was a kind of preparation for us and the federal SUP and the units that
21 the State Security Service that Frenki was in charge of would be sending
22 down, and Arkan came in with his people and his people were there as well
23 in the course of those talks, and we all talked together and there was a
24 distribution of tasks being decided, who was supposed to do what.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Talks to be held exactly between who and who? Were
1 these talks where Mr. Krajisnik and Arkan were both present?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's what I'm saying.
3 President Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik were there.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said tasks were distributed. Could you
5 give us an example of such a task to be distributed.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For example, as a federal SUP, we
7 went to Pale to the Republika Srpska in the first place to provide
8 assistance with special units and provide equipment; whereas, Frenki was
9 in charge of units that had other tasks, in terms to help MUP against the
10 enemy and Arkan did what he felt was understood between him and Krajisnik
11 and Karadzic and Mico Stanisic and the local staffs.
12 JUDGE ORIE: You say that -- the task of Arkan was to do what he
13 felt was understood between him and Krajisnik and Karadzic and Stanisic.
14 How do you -- what was this, said to him, or -- could you just describe
15 how that specific task was discussed at this meeting.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me stress once again: I was
17 present on the occasion when we got there to hold talks about the needs
18 and the role of the federal SUP and all the other units present there.
19 They all, within their own area of competence, held talks with Mico
20 Stanisic, Krajisnik, and Karadzic, and everybody did what they felt should
21 be their contribution in the part of the work that they were supposed to
22 carry out. So we were assigned the task that I've just told you about,
23 and Mr. Arkan did what he was authorised to do, probably by Karadzic and
25 JUDGE ORIE: In what words was that done?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said, "Okay. Let's help here.
2 What can you do? Or don't interfere with that. This is somebody else's
3 area of competence." So this was the kind of language that was used.
4 Or, "Drop that. We are in charge of that. Don't interfere. What can you
5 do," et cetera, in terms of individual topics being determined.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So he was not provided positively with tasks,
7 but it was told to him, if I correctly understand you, to stay out of
8 certain matters, which you understood to be that he was free to do what
9 was not prohibited specifically.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
13 MR. HANNIS: If I can follow up on that, Your Honour.
14 Q. This meeting that you've been talking about, do you know
15 approximately when that was?
16 A. In the beginning of 1992. It could have been April or May, at
17 Bosanska Vila.
18 Q. And do you know if it was before or after Arkan's men had entered
20 A. No, no, afterwards.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to go back to your statement,
22 Mr. Davidovic, and talk about paragraph 82. This is in July, when you've
23 gone to Bijeljina to deal with the paramilitary problem. You say: "I
24 received documents signed by Cedo Kljajic from the RS MUP authorising me
25 to operate as the chief of police affairs in the RS."
1 My first question is: What was that position, chief of police
2 affairs in Republika Srpska? That's not a title I've heard before in
3 connection with police work. Was that a regular job, or was that a
4 special title created just for you on this occasion, or do you know?
5 A. No. There is a job for the chief of police within the MUP of the
6 republic. That's an office for the chief of the police officers,
7 uniformed police, and he's accountable to the person in charge of national
8 security. And it's a fairly high-ranking job because it is a person --
9 the person in charge of all the police forces within the Republika Srpska.
10 Q. Okay. And in that regard, then, in the -- in the chain of
11 command or the hierarchical structure, who would you, as chief of police
12 affairs, be required to report to in Republika Srpska? Who was the boss
13 for the chief of police affairs?
14 A. Cedo Kljajic would be the first boss, and then Mico Stanisic, as
15 the Minister of the Interior.
16 Q. And in relation to you as chief of police affairs, did you have
17 authority over other members -- all other members of the MUP? Who were
18 you the boss of, then, as chief of police affairs?
19 A. I was given that title, as it were, simply in order to provide me
20 with the authority to act whenever I visited a body from the MUP of the
21 republic, say Lopare, Zvornik, Brcko. If anyone were to ask me who gave
22 me the authority to go there, I think for that reason I was given that
23 title in order to give me the authority to act and to issue orders.
24 Q. And you could give -- issue -- you could issue orders to heads of
25 local police stations or heads of police centres, such as in Bijeljina or
1 Banja Luka?
2 A. Yes. In the area that I was working in, Central Bosnia, or any
3 other area, but only in the area where I was at any given time.
4 Q. Now, paragraph 84, you talk about your meeting with Colonel Ilic
5 from the VRS to talk about working together on dealing with the problem on
6 paramilitaries. And in your statement in paragraph 84, you say he told
7 you that "The paramilitaries were not under the control of the army and
8 that they had the full support of the SDS." Did he tell you how he knew
9 that or what he based that opinion on, that these paramilitaries had the
10 support of the SDS?
11 A. I think that Mr. Ilic was a corps commander and their area of
12 responsibility was Central Bosnia, and he was in charge of all armed units
13 which were both the police and the army. They were both under his
14 control. And he was able to issue orders to police as well, and we had to
15 follow his orders. So it was quite clear what units were under his
16 command and who he could issue orders to and who not, and he said to me in
17 so many words, with regard to the situation in the city of Bijeljina,
18 where Mauzer was in command. And then at Brcko, somebody called Tito was
19 in charge there. And then at Zvornik, Zuco and Repic were there. And at
20 Ugljevik, there was a Mando, who was heading some technical formations.
21 Q. Did he indicate to you what his source of knowledge was for the
22 assertion that these paramilitaries apparently had the full support of the
24 A. Well, as a commander, he had to know who was subjected --
25 subordinated to him and who he should issue orders to. It is the first
1 thing you must know as commander. And the fact that he was unable to
2 influence the decisions or issue orders to units with regard to the guard,
3 well, it is enough to indicate that he did not have authority to issue
4 instructions or orders to those units, as to what they're supposed to be
6 Q. And when you're talking about the guard, who are you referring
8 A. The guard unit that was set up at Bijeljina. It was a kind of
9 party army.
10 Q. Under the direction of whom?
11 A. At the beginning of the war, it was considered that SDS had to
12 set up their own units and that they should be the ones in charge of any
13 future war or other operations. And Bijeljina was the first place where
14 it was done. The whole process was initiated at Bijeljina. Their main
15 task and main aim was, as they said, to defend the Serb people, and only
16 members of the SDS party could become members of that unit. And yeah,
17 only they could join the guard.
18 Q. My question was: Who was the leader of the guard in Bijeljina?
19 If you know.
20 A. Ljubisa Savic, called Mauzer. And afterwards there were some
21 other changes. But it was at a later stage.
22 Q. In paragraph 85, you talk about --
23 MS. LOUKAS: Just prior to moving on.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MS. LOUKAS: Just at the beginning of page 19 of the transcript,
1 the -- the answer is given: "Well, as commander, he had to know who was
2 subjected -- subordinated to him ...." I'm given to understand that
3 there's a nuance of translation there that may not have come across, in
4 the sense that it would be ought to have known or should have known, as
5 opposed to he had to know. And perhaps that might be clarified, Your
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The interpreters have -- could you -- when you
8 said, as it is translated to us: "As a commander" -- and you were talking
9 about Mr. Ilic -- "he had to know who was subjected, subordinated to him,"
10 whether you would say this is what he should know or what inevitably he
11 must have known, if that correctly, Ms. Loukas -- it's a very subtle
12 linguistic matter. So as a non-native speaker, I hope that --
13 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, and I'll just indicate what our
14 understanding is that the word used was. And the word was "valjda."
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're very close to the microphone,
16 perhaps --
17 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, "valjda."
18 THE INTERPRETER: Supposedly.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Supposedly.
20 MS. LOUKAS: I might get my legal assistant to actually say it so
21 that it's clear.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But the interpreters, if you had -- they have said
23 that they would translate it as "supposedly."
24 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the matter having been clarified.
1 I would have, apart from this objection, I would have one
2 question: You said "only members of the SDS could join the guard. How do
3 you know exactly -- did you know exactly who were members of the SDS and,
4 at the same time, joined this guard?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew who members of the SDS were
6 and who was joining the guard. In the last analyses, they were
7 registered. The guard was set up on the basis of the members who were
8 close to the leadership of the Crisis Staff at Bijeljina, and people who
9 registered with that unit mostly went through training that was organised
10 by Arkan at Bogatic, on the border between Bijeljina and the Republic of
11 Serbia, along the River Drina, where there were training centres. And
12 that was the core of that future guard unit. And then they took
13 volunteers from the entire municipality who came along and joined the
14 unit. But -- but only and exclusively members of the Serb Democratic
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did you have access to the registers in which
17 they were listed, or would that also include those who were in favour of
18 or supporting the SDS even if there would be no members?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had the opportunity to have
20 access to the documents when we were at Bijeljina. We took their centre
21 where their command post was, and I found documents there that later on I
22 submitted to Mr. Ilic, who was the corps commander, and those documents
23 included the list of people who joined the guard unit. And that's how I
25 Secondly, for 20 years I had been within the police force at
1 Bijeljina, and I knew very many people, and especially people who became
2 active in the Serb Democratic Party and engaged in other activities
3 afterwards, and that's how I knew. And when the guard was first set up,
4 it was only made up of members of the SDS party.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So your conclusion that the guard members were
6 exclusively SDS members, you concluded that from their previous activities
7 in the SDS?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Judge Hanoteau has ...
13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] In a municipality such as
14 Bijeljina, sir, what would have been the ratio or the number of people
15 joining the SDS? Since you said that you knew many people in the
16 community, how many women and men would have joined the party?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you know, it is very hard to
18 tell at the moment in terms of percentages. I think it's -- well, nigh
19 impossible. I don't really want to play with figures.
20 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 MR. HANNIS:
22 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I want to move to paragraph 85 in your statement,
23 where you talk about Colonel Ilic showing you a telegram that his chief of
24 security, one Tanaskovic, had sent apparently inquiring about what
25 authority you had to arrest military personnel as well as civilians. And
1 I -- and you say that Tolimir had replied to that telegram. Did Tolimir
2 tell you -- or do you know what Tolimir had said in response to that
3 telegram inquiring about your authority?
4 A. When I got to the corps to see Ilic for the first time, he said
5 to me that Tolimir had called him and he asked about whether he knew about
6 this message he got from Tanaskovic. I think he was a major or a
7 lieutenant colonel who was in charge of security within the corps.
8 Because of his line of work, he sent a telegram, a message to Mr. Tolimir,
9 who was the head of security for the Armed Forces of the Republika Srpska,
10 and he asked him who I was and whether I had any authority and how -- who
11 gave me the authority to arrest military personnel when they were caught
12 stealing or looting, et cetera. And he told him and he confirmed that I
13 did have such an authority when it was about crime, whether it is being
14 committed by civilians or military staff.
15 Q. I'd like to show you a couple of documents now.
16 MR. HANNIS: If the next item could be given a number. This is a
17 4th of July document.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But is this in relation to your last question
19 or --
20 MR. HANNIS: It is, Your Honour.
21 THE REGISTRAR: The next number will be P771.
22 MR. HANNIS:
23 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I'll ask you to have a look at this. I'm not sure
24 how legible the B/C/S copy is. Once you've had a chance to look at that,
25 would you tell us if you've seen it before or if you know what it relates
2 A. I haven't seen this document before, but I know that this was
3 sent to Tolimir, and yes, that is the dispatch in question. In fact, the
4 first time I saw it was when you showed it to me a couple of days ago.
5 But I know that this is a dispatch sent to Colonel Tolimir.
6 Q. And I note that in the heading, it is addressed to the Serb BiH
7 Presidency and also to the Serb BiH Ministry of Internal Affairs. Did --
8 did anyone contact you about this telegram, other than your conversation
9 with Colonel Ilic?
10 A. Yes. Mico Stanisic asked me what it was about, and I told him.
11 He said, to the extent that this was possible, one should avoid officers,
12 members of the military, being taken into the MUP. He believed that the
13 military police should do such things. He said I shouldn't really take
14 action when it came to members of the military.
15 Q. I'd like to show you the next document, which is from the 5th of
17 MR. HANNIS: If we can give that a number and hand it to you.
18 It also pertains to this, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: The number will be P772.
21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
22 Q. When you were first assigned this task to come to Bijeljina and
23 deal with the paramilitaries, what were you told was going to be your
24 authority? And I mean back in -- in Belgrade, in Serbia.
25 A. I apologise but ...
1 Q. Oh, I'm sorry? You didn't hear my question?
2 A. Yes, I really do apologise. I wasn't concentrating.
3 Q. My question was: Before you came to Bijeljina to deal with the
4 paramilitaries, when you were given that assignment back in -- in Serbia,
5 when you were in the federal MUP, what were you told would be your power
6 or your authority, in terms of dealing with the problem? Were you going
7 to be limited in any way as to who you could arrest and not arrest?
8 A. No. I had the authority to disarm paramilitary formations, and
9 they did not specify whether these were civilian or -- civilians or
10 members of the military. That was my task before I arrived there. And a
11 couple of days earlier, I went to the MUP in Bijeljina and saw Cedo
12 Kljajic there and we agreed on the responsibilities that I would have. We
13 agreed on all the details.
14 Q. Could you take a look at Exhibit 772, which has just been handed
15 to you now. And does this relate to the -- the matter that we were just
16 talking about, regarding a complaint about you arresting military members?
17 A. Yes. Yes, I'm familiar with this dispatch.
18 Q. And what did -- did you take any action as a result of this
20 A. Yes. At the time, we had a joint plan with the military police
21 in Bijeljina. We agreed on the measures to be taken. And I remember that
22 the commander of the military police at the time, Stevanovic - I don't
23 know what his first name was, but his nickname was Ceco - he was in
24 charge. He had contact with me with regard to the future action to be
25 taken by both the civilian and military police. Cveto Stevanovic, also
1 known as Ceco. He was the chief of the corps police.
2 Q. All right. Now I want to move a little farther in your
3 statement. We're still talking about the acts in Bijeljina. In
4 paragraph 95, you say that Mauzer had set up a private gaol at the
5 slaughter-house, and you're talking about going to those premises with the
6 public prosecutor.
7 MR. HANNIS: Could we mark the next item and give it the next
8 number. It's the 7 of July document, described as a "Report on
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P773.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you tell the Court what that is. Have you seen it before?
14 What does it refer to?
15 A. This was compiled by officials from Bijeljina who were present at
16 the on-site investigation. When we were in Bijeljina, we entered the
17 premises of a refrigeration facility because we knew that certain
18 individuals were being detained there. This was a private prison, and
19 Mauzer was in charge.
20 When we got there, we saw certain individuals in the
21 slaughter-house, in the refrigeration facilities. We took them out of the
22 building and made it possible for them to go home unhindered. Quite a lot
23 of goods that had been stolen in Brcko were taken. And this document
24 refers to what was found there and to the individuals found there. So you
25 can quite clearly see what we did. And the prosecutor was also informed
1 of this. He was present too.
2 After we had taken those over facilities, both the civilian
3 prosecutor and the military prosecutor went to the site.
4 Q. And you indicated that this was reported to the public
5 prosecutor, the federal SUP, and to the RS MUP in your statement. Were
6 any arrests or prosecutions instituted as a result of this on-site
8 A. No. No. We drafted a criminal report and forwarded a report to
9 the MUP. I informed the federal MUP as well. But as far as I know, no
10 action was taken.
11 Q. The -- the five Muslims that are described in that on-site
12 investigation, I think you've just told us, were -- were released and
13 allowed to go home. Do you have any information about why they were
14 detained there?
15 A. Well, because they were Muslims.
16 Q. Would it be fair to say that your involvement in this activity
17 did not ingratiate you with Mauzer?
18 A. Our relationship deteriorated. I became that unit's main enemy.
19 Q. Let me show you the next item on the list.
20 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I apologise, but I would like to
21 clarify something with regard to the Serb voluntary guard. Could you tell
22 us approximately how many men this paramilitary group was composed of?
23 Could you provide us with a rough estimate.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the first day, when this group
25 was established -- there were 224 of them in the line when the brigade was
1 formed in Bijeljina. There were 224 of them. That includes the officers.
2 And later there were over 1.000 men. I don't know how many exactly, but
3 they said that they -- they had over 1.000 men.
4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Where were these men recruited
5 initially? The 220 men, where were they recruited? Where did they come
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When this unit was formed, the men
8 were all from Bijeljina. I mean, the municipality of Bijeljina, not the
9 town of Bijeljina. And at the time, the municipality had a lot of
10 inhabitants. They were all from Bijeljina, and there were no men who came
11 from outside Bijeljina.
12 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, we had a late start. We need two breaks
14 anyhow, because one break would not do. If you could find within the next
15 couple of minutes a suitable moment for a break, then ...
16 MR. HANNIS: [Microphone not activated]
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. HANNIS: This is as good as any time, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll adjourn until 25 minutes
21 past 11.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.59 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.31 a.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, you may proceed.
25 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, just before Mr. Hannis proceeds.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MS. LOUKAS: I just want to foreshadow -- and, of course, the
3 witness is present in court, so I won't deal with the matter. But I do
4 want to foreshadow that prior to the next break, I just want to deal
5 briefly with the question of material relating to a forthcoming witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll find some time before the next break.
7 Mr. Hannis.
8 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
9 Q. Mr. Davidovic, when we broke, you had just mentioned that your
10 relations with Mauzer and his group had deteriorated. I want to show you
11 the next two documents, from 7 and 8 July.
12 MR. HANNIS: If they could be given consecutive numbers and both
13 of them handed to the witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: They'll be P774 and P775.
16 JUDGE ORIE: P775, I take it, for the 7th of July; and P775 for
17 the 8th of July.
18 MR. HANNIS: While those are being handed round, Your Honour, may
19 I ask a scheduling question. Since we started late because of the
20 technical difficulties.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. HANNIS: Can I ask what time we're going to today. The usual
23 quitting time?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think, as a -- as far as scheduling for
25 interpreters and technicians are concerned. Unless, Madam Registrar, we
1 would have more time.
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar will check whether -- how
4 tight we are limited to quarter to 2.00.
5 MR. HANNIS: And the time for the next break, Your Honour, given
6 our late start?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, of course, I would like to first hear
8 the information from Madam Registrar.
9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: But usually I split it up in two parts, the second
11 part being a bit shorter than the first part.
12 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
13 Q. Mr. Davidovic, could you look first at that document dated, I
14 think, the 7th of July, entitled "An official note," and compiled by a
15 person named Dragan Andan. First of all, could you remind us -- it's in
16 your statement, but could you remind us briefly who was Dragan Andan? Who
17 did he work for? What was his position at that time?
18 A. Dragan Andan worked in the republican MUP before the war as a
19 police inspector. And when I arrived in the Central Bosnia area, in
20 Bijeljina, I was then informed by Kljajic that Dragan Andan was to act as
21 a coordinator between me and the republican MUP. He was to act as a
22 coordinator between Cedo Kljajic and myself as a representative of the
23 federal MUP.
24 Q. Were you present at this feast --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.
1 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Whenever we talk about the republican MUP, could we
3 please always specify whether we are talking about BiH -- Republika Srpska
4 republican MUP or Serbia republican MUP, in order to avoid confusion.
5 MR. HANNIS: I will -- I will do that.
6 Q. And regarding your last answer, that republican MUP, which
7 republic were you referring to, and Mr. Kljajic?
8 A. I was referring to Republika Srpska.
9 Q. Thank you. And his note -- well, first of all, let me ask you:
10 Were you present at this feast day that's described in this note?
11 A. No, I wasn't.
12 Q. Let me show you the document 775, the other one that was handed
13 to you from the 8th of July. Have you had a chance to look at that one
14 yet? This is one that was compiled by Sinisa --
15 A. I haven't had a look at it yet.
16 Q. Please do. Tell us who Sinisa Karan was.
17 A. Sinisa Karan was also an employee in the former MUP in the BH,
18 and later he moved to Republika Srpska and he was appointed as a commander
19 of the police station in Bijeljina. Cedo Kljajic appointed him to that
21 Q. And he describes events that occurred to him as part of a team
22 that included you, Dragan Andan, and a BH government representative named
23 as Jovo Miskel [phoen]. Do you recall that event? Is it accurately
24 described here?
25 A. [No audible response].
1 Q. You'll have to answer out loud.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the answer again.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. Of course.
4 MR. HANNIS:
5 Q. And you mention the name here appears as Miskel. I note in your
6 statement at paragraph 97 you refer to someone who appears to be the same
7 individual as Miskin. Do you know which name is correct?
8 A. Yes, Jovo Miskin. That was the person's name. He was in charge
9 of Bijeljina. He was responsible for Bijeljina, and he was a government
11 Q. And do you know why the -- the Serbian National Guard was trying
12 to stop your -- your team?
13 A. Well, of course. They wanted to have the freedom to do what they
14 were involved in, looting, looting items from Muslims in the territory of
15 Bijeljina, in territory under their control.
16 Q. What exactly was -- was Mauzer's status with the Crisis Staff in
17 Bijeljina at that time?
18 A. Mauzer was the president of the Crisis Staff at the beginning of
19 the war, the president of the Crisis Staff was -- Stjepan was the
20 president of the Assembly and he was the president of the Crisis Staff,
21 and perhaps a month later Mauzer was appointed as president of the Crisis
22 Staff and he was the president of the Crisis Staff in Bijeljina, and he
23 was in charge of a guard unit.
24 Q. I gather from your statement that you -- you had information
25 indicating that his unit had been involved in criminal activity. Correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And given your mandate and authority from the -- from the federal
3 SUP when you game to Bijeljina and from the RS MUP, as chief of police
4 affairs, how was Mauzer able to continue to be such a problem for you?
5 Why couldn't you simply arrest him?
6 A. When I arrived there, Mauzer stopped doing what he was involved
7 in, but he tried to expel us. He requested that we be expelled from
8 territory and the Crisis Staff requested that I leave. He asked this to
9 happen. During that period of time, he refrained from taking any action
10 because he knew that strident measures would be taken against him. If I
11 had expected him to do anything, I would have arrested him immediately and
12 filed a criminal report against him.
13 Q. You -- you talk about that in paragraph 99 of your statement,
14 that the Municipal Assembly passed a resolution in which they demanded
15 that you be expelled from the municipality. Who -- who told you about
16 that? How did you know about that?
17 A. Well, the decision -- I was informed of the decision by the
18 president of the Executive Committee of the Assembly and by Dr. Vojinovic.
19 They said that a decision had been taken according to which I should be
20 expelled from the territory and I should be banned from taking any further
21 action in that area. And on Radio Bijeljina it was quite publicly stated
22 that I should be prevented from staying in Bijeljina since I was
23 protecting Muslims. They said I was an old Communist and that that was
24 from a bygone period.
25 Q. And did -- did this resolution or this effort to try and get you
1 expelled from Bijeljina stop with just that municipal resolution?
2 A. Well, no. As far as I know, representatives from the -- a
3 representative from the republican parliament, Micic, told me that they
4 had discussed the matter at the republican parliament and they wanted an
5 example to be set with regard to confronting these paramilitary
6 formations. However, they nevertheless decided that I should be prevented
7 from taking further action and a request was made for me to withdraw.
8 Q. Let me show you next --
9 MR. HANNIS: Actually, I'd like to have these two next exhibits
10 marked with the consecutive numbers. The first is the 29 July report by
11 RS MUP.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P776.
13 MR. HANNIS: And then there is a letter from Andan with an
14 attached report dated also the 29th of July.
15 THE REGISTRAR: P777.
16 MR. HANNIS: Oh, I'm sorry. I've skipped one on your list.
17 Number 19 is not the one I want to do right now. I want to do 21 and 22,
18 if I may. Sorry, Ms. Javier. I apologise.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Everything is clear, Madam Registrar?
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. So the numbers still remain
21 the same.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 THE REGISTRAR: The same numbers are assigned to those two
24 documents respectively.
25 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
2 MR. HANNIS:
3 Q. Mr. Davidovic, this is a document that you have seen before and
4 actually the report -- they are two different copies. The reason you're
5 being shown two is because there's some handwritten information on one
6 that I want to ask you about.
7 Would you have a look at the last page of that document. And if
8 you -- can you recognise that the name and signature that appears there is
9 the sender of the report?
10 A. I don't know. Believe me, I don't know who wrote this and whose
11 signature this is, and I can't even tell what it says.
12 Q. Okay. I see -- I'm not asking you about the three handwritten
13 lines at the bottom; however, the signature that appears under the
14 typewritten name above that.
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch what the witness
16 has just said. Sorry.
17 MR. HANNIS:
18 Q. Could you repeat for the interpreter, please.
19 A. This is the signature of Dragan Andan.
20 Q. And have you seen this report before?
21 A. No. Oh, actually no -- yes, I had seen it before, but not with
22 this signature.
23 Q. On the front page, it's described as "Information about the
24 involvement and activities of the Ministry of the Interior of the Serbian
25 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, before you proceed, it's not the first
2 time that you ask whether the witness has seen a document before. Could
3 you please always verify whether he has never seen it before, whether he
4 has seen it last week, or at any earlier stage. Because in view of the
5 practice by the OTP, it would be highly surprising if a witness would not
6 have seen such a document before.
7 MR. HANNIS: Correct, Your Honour. I will.
8 Q. Do you recall when you first saw this document or a document that
9 contained this kind of information about the security situation in
11 A. This information was created by Dragan Andan in my presence
12 basically. Novica Terzic [phoen] obtained the information here. He also
13 worked for the federal SUP and he was an analyst. And he was sent to
14 us -- to me, actually, as an assistant because of operational duties I had
15 to carry out, I just did not have time to put it all in writing and make
16 it into an official document, and for this reason he was asked to come and
17 assist me in that task and compile this document, including the
18 information as to what we had been doing. And this was done following a
19 request from the Municipal Assembly, and it was discussed at the Municipal
20 Assembly when there was a discussion about the general role and activities
21 of SUP at that time. And this is the information that was rejected by the
22 Municipal Assembly. They did not want to discuss it.
23 Q. Now, the information in here describes the various kinds of
24 criminal activity that had been occurring prior to the engagement of -- of
25 your men and personnel from the Republika Srpska MUP. If I understand
1 what you're saying, this report was compiled based on information provided
2 by whom?
3 A. Well, I did that and Dragan as well, who worked with me. We
4 gathered that information when we got there, and so basically it includes
5 the results of our operational work.
6 Q. And Terzic was the analyst with the specialised writing ability
7 who actually composed the document?
8 A. Novica Terzic was an employee at the federal secretariat of the
9 Ministry of the Interior and he worked within the police force, the secret
10 services, and he was in charge of analyses, and he was -- I don't want to
11 say that he was specially gifted, but he knew how to process all that
12 information very swiftly, and he could do this fast. And he was an
13 expert. I didn't want to say that he was gifted. He was actually an
15 Q. Would you look at -- there is one copy of the document that has a
16 handwritten name, "Cedo," on the front. Can you -- can you locate that
17 one? I think one of those two exhibits you've been handed - I believe
18 it's 776 - has a handwritten name on the first page at the top. It's
19 translated as "Cedo."
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In the Ministry of Internal Affairs at that time, who would have
22 been the Cedo that that copy would be going to, if you know?
23 A. That's Cedo Kljajic, who was the assistant secretary. And we did
24 send the information to him. We had to.
25 Q. And in the other document, 777, which has a cover letter from
1 Mr. Andan that's addressed to the president of the Presidency,
2 Mr. Karadzic. And I will tell you that the handwritten material after
3 Mr. Andan's signature at the end of the report has been translated as
4 reading: "Keep enforcing order and rule of law. 2 August 1992. Radovan
5 Karadzic." You said you didn't recognise that signature or the writing.
6 Do you have any reason to disbelieve that that's Mr. Karadzic's signature?
7 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, that's not an appropriate way of asking
8 the question. It's simply the -- what appears there appears there. The
9 witness has indicated that -- he's given his answer in relation to the
10 handwriting. For Mr. Hannis to attempt to introduce evidence in relation
11 to this document in this manner is inappropriate.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hannis, the absence of any disbelief,
13 would that support in any way that it is Mr. Krajisnik's -- Mr. Karadzic's
14 signature? Apart from that one out of how many million people of the
15 world would not have a reason to believe that it's not?
16 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So --
18 MR. HANNIS: I guess I just wanted to enquire whether he had any
19 reason that I'm not aware of to think that it's a forgery.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To that extent, Ms. Loukas, of course
21 Mr. Hannis is aware that it will be his duty to -- to establish that it
22 was Mr. Karadzic's handwriting in one way or the other. And at the same
23 time, if there would be any reason to doubt, he'd like to know so that he
24 could take that into consideration. And I take it that's important for
25 the Defence as well, if there's any reason to believe it would not be
1 Mr. Karadzic's signature.
2 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour. But --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Then that's, I think --
4 MS. LOUKAS: The point is that the --
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- sufficiently --
6 MS. LOUKAS: -- question is inappropriately asked.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are not a jury.
8 I have, however, Mr. -- if, once you've finished with the
9 documents, I'd like to ask something about it.
10 MR. HANNIS: Well, Your Honour, I had a couple of other questions
11 to ask.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
13 MR. HANNIS: -- but I can await for your question because you may
14 address something I was going to cover.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether you wanted to address it not.
16 But I take it that we have 776 as a copy of a report just, and then 777 as
17 a copy of the report with a letter?
18 MR. HANNIS: Yes --
19 JUDGE ORIE: And then some handwriting at the bottom, which might
20 demonstrate that someone has seen it at least.
21 MR. HANNIS: And it has the cover sheet, which I'm not sure is on
22 the other one that has "Cedo."
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I have a totally different problem. Where
24 these documents are supposed to be the same, I'm a bit surprised to see
25 that in 777 the letter bears the letterhead of "Federal Republic of Bosnia
1 and Herzegovina," and the report has the heading of "Federal Republic of
2 Bosnia and Herzegovina," which in translation surprises me a bit. I am
3 able now to decipher some obvious even Cyrillic B/C/S. If I compare that
4 with the other document, it says "The Serbian Republic of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina," which is of course something different than -- it
6 looks very much as -- it starts with "Srpska Republika" on both the cover
7 letter and the report itself.
8 MR. HANNIS: I agree, Your Honour. And I noticed there were some
9 other differences in the body of the text between those two English
10 versions. The 777 is a CLSS translation.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. HANNIS: However, that's the one that's described as Federal
13 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have some difficulty -- of course, I'm not a
15 linguistic expert, but reading "Srpska Republika Bosnia-Herzegovina," very
16 much sounds not as Federal Republic.
17 MR. HANNIS: I agree. And had you not raised that point, Your
18 Honour, I would have been asking you to -- let's use the CLSS translation
19 as the one. But ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, if you'd -- if you'd finally make up
21 your mind and -- and then attach at least the valid translation to each of
22 the documents so that there could be no confusion, even if you think
23 that --
24 MR. HANNIS: I will.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. HANNIS: The purpose of 776 was to show that a copy had gone
2 to a member of the Republika Srpska MUP, Cedo Kljajic.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand what you have in mind.
4 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
5 MS. LOUKAS: Just in relation to that, Your Honour, it's also
6 been confirmed by my legal assistant, who also speaks B/C/S, that quite
7 clearly the P777 is an error.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Even without this confirmation, Ms. Loukas,
9 the Chamber might have accepted that.
10 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
11 MR. HANNIS: I agree with that.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Assuming Mr. Hannis takes care of it.
13 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
14 Q. Assuming for purpose of my next question that that is
15 Mr. Karadzic's signature saying "keep on enforcing the rule of law," it
16 would seem to indicate that there was approval from him for the work that
17 you and Mr. Andan had done in Bijeljina. Did you receive any kind of
18 promotion or pay raise or letter of appreciation for the work that you had
19 done in Bijeljina?
20 A. I did not get a raise or no support in any way. I must admit I
21 did not know about this, and I don't know whether this came from Radovan
22 Karadzic. I mean, this is the document that I had not seen before, and I
23 don't know.
24 But we continued to work. We did not follow the decision of the
25 Assembly and we did not withdraw at that stage.
1 Q. Let me ask you about that. How about Dragan Andan? Did he get
2 any kind of promotion or pay raise or recognition for the work he did --
3 A. No. No, certainly not. And certainly not at that time.
4 Q. And --
5 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I'm going to put a marker there.
6 It's -- I object to questions of this nature about what on earth the Trial
7 Chamber could make of whether there was a promotion or a pay-rise and how
8 relevant that is to the Trial Chamber's consideration is hard to fathom
9 from the Defence perspective, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Sometimes - I'm not saying always, Ms. Loukas -
11 pay-rise reflects a higher level of appreciation of the work done. So we
12 could not say it could under no circumstances be relevant. But if there's
13 no pay-rise, then, of course, it doesn't say that much. The relevance is
14 in the question.
15 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And now you say it becomes irrelevant through the
17 answer. That's not the proper way of approaching it.
18 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, Mr. Hannis has proofed the
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that's one of the things you always
21 insist, and with good reasons, that the witness should give the evidence.
22 The Chamber is not in a position, and I think you are not in a position
23 either, to know whether the answer surprised Mr. Hannis or not. And it's
24 the relevance of the question that counts.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
1 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I would just like to come back
2 to a previous part of the statement. I would like to go back to para 100,
3 on page 24. You have indicated, sir, that the Bijeljina Municipal
4 Assembly [In English] "had demanded my removal." And according to Micic,
5 with the deputy of the Assembly, not of the Municipal Assembly,
6 [Interpretation] but of the Assembly of the Republic, according to this
7 Micic, it would appear that there had been a debate, a discussion at the
8 Assembly at the end of which it transpired that you were supposed to be
9 placed under tight control and that your activities should be restricted.
10 Was that the case? Your case was looked into at two different levels, at
11 the Municipal Assembly and at the Assembly of the Republic?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, it was discussed at the
13 Municipal Assembly and there were differences of opinion amongst delegates
14 or representatives, as they were called then, and some were in favour of
15 me continuing with my work and others were against it. But there was this
16 person called Micic, who was also in favour of my continuing. I don't
17 know. Perhaps he believed that having proper law and order would have a
18 positive effect on policies afterwards. I don't know what led him to
19 believe that, but he did think that what I did was a good thing.
20 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] What was your feeling at the
21 time? It appears as if at the time you were put in a somewhat weird
22 position. You were officially seconded there and allocated to carry out
23 certain tasks, and it appears as if a part of that -- of those official
24 duties were being argued against by people who were in positions of power.
25 Could you tell us how you interpreted it?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must admit that I felt very
2 uncomfortable. I mean, of course if a local community asks you to
3 withdraw and your main aim is to introduce law and order, I mean, instead
4 of people asking me to continue, they're arguing against my work. But if
5 you keep in mind that Mauzer, who was the president of the Crisis Staff,
6 and he had a group of people around him who were the leaders within the
7 Assembly and that the SDS was the leading and the only party making any
8 decisions within that Municipal Assembly, I had no reason to expect that I
9 would gain any support whatsoever.
10 But another essential point is that it was not the Municipal
11 Assembly that put me there. I did not come there following their request.
12 I went there within the framework of my job somewhere else. And I was not
13 even accountable to them in any way. I was not either subordinated or
14 anything. I did not have a formal relationship with them.
15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And in that case, when Mr. Micic
16 told you about that discussion at the Assembly, did he tell you that
17 within the Assembly there were differing opinions, considering your
18 activities and your way of doing things in general? Had there been a
19 discussion in the course of which totally different opinions were being
20 voiced? I mean, what did Mr. Micic tell you about it?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you briefly. He did
22 say that there were differing opinions, but most people were negative, and
23 especially the representative from Lopare, Mr. Perovic, was of the view
24 that I had no reason to be there because I was a leftover from previous
25 times, from Communist times, and that I should be removed no matter what I
1 did and how I did it.
2 And I can give you another interesting detail in this respect.
3 It's slightly uncomfortable. I wouldn't like to highlight it in any way.
4 Micic said - and he even apparently said it out loud on the occasion of
5 that Municipal Assembly - that we would live to regret what we are doing
6 now, at the time when we neglected to give him full support and full
7 authority. And he meant myself. And he said, "We are going to make a
8 statue of him out of clay and -- just so to be able to hope that his
9 positive work will have some kind of impact and some kind of lasting
10 effect." Well, that's what he said to me. I don't know whether he
11 actually did say that during the meeting.
12 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I have one additional matter to raise, Mr. Hannis.
14 This part of the statement is redacted. Nevertheless, the Chamber expects
15 under those circumstances, if the statement gives any information, that it
16 will be elicited orally from the witness, and is specifically interested
17 in this part because it is hearsay but if in the transcript of any of the
18 Assembly sessions this would appear, then of course what the witness said
19 might gain, because it gets a far better basis. If, on the other hand, it
20 would not appear, then of course Ms. Loukas would, I would say, with
21 reason say, "Here you see how dangerous hearsay evidence is." So the
22 Chamber is very much interested to see whether verification on the basis
23 of documents would either strengthen or considerably weaken the -- the
24 information of this witness.
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, my information -- I understand your
1 point. My information in that regard is that for this Assembly session,
2 which we believe was either August or September of 1992, is one for which
3 we do not have a full transcript. We only have the minutes of the
4 session. And I can tell you that I -- there's not a reference to
5 Mr. Davidovic's name in -- in the minutes of the session, but this is not
6 one -- this is one of those sessions where we don't have the full
7 line-by-line transcript.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you'd say that it remains uncertain.
9 MR. HANNIS: Absolutely --
10 JUDGE ORIE: If the minutes say anything about it, even without
11 mentioning a name sometimes. But I just wanted to point at the
12 opportunity we might have either to find further confirmation or the
13 contrary of this witness's statement.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. HANNIS: One more thing on that, Your Honour. I did look at
16 the minutes to see if there was something on the agenda, in terms of a
17 topic that might have covered this. There is one that's kind of a common
18 one, oftentimes a report on the general security situation in -- in the
19 republic. Other than that, I don't believe there was anything.
20 Q. Let me move on, then, if there are no more questions regarding
22 In addition to you being the subject of a motion or a resolution
23 in the Municipal Assembly to be expelled, you say in your statement at
24 paragraph 97 that "The Municipal Assembly also called for Mr. Miskin's
25 removal and expulsion from Bijeljina." What had he done that caused them
1 to ask for him to be expelled? He was not a policeman. He was not
2 engaged in arresting Serbs or protecting Muslims, was he?
3 A. Mr. Miskin was a government commissioner who got -- who was
4 authorised by the government to follow the events in the area of Semberija
5 and to relay the government's position and to report back to the
6 government. Mr. Miskin gave us his full support, but his support actually
7 led to greater resistance within the local community precisely because of
8 the fact that they felt that his support to me meant that he was a person
9 who shouldn't be there either. If he gave his support to me, what was he
10 doing in that local community? They did not trust him because they
11 believed that it was them who knew best and that somebody who had
12 different views and opinions had no place there.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now I want to move on to another municipality.
14 After Bijeljina --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.
16 MR. HANNIS: Yes, sir.
17 JUDGE ORIE: You asked about scheduling. We'll continue until
18 12.50, then have a break until ten minutes past 1.00, and then we could
19 continue until quarter past 2.00.
20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And if you're reviewing the translations anyhow, 776
22 and 777, where 776 seems to be better -- better as far as the heading is
23 concerned, on one of the pages footnotes are a bit too much. They do
24 not -- they appear more footnotes in the text than appear on the bottom of
25 the page.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Where -- in your statement it appears that you next went to
4 Brcko. Why did you decide to go to Brcko next instead of Zvornik, which
5 you say was between those two? What decided you for Brcko?
6 A. The local community and the Crisis Staff in Brcko had requested
7 that I come to assist them, disarm paramilitary formations, Red Berets led
8 by Zika Crnogorac. And then there was another paramilitary formation, a
9 local one, under someone called Tito - that was his nickname - because
10 they had lost all control over them and they were acting in a willful way,
11 and this had adverse consequences and the citizens were very unhappy about
12 the situation. It wasn't clear who they were working for and what sort of
13 things they were doing.
14 Q. In your statement in paragraphs 102 through 114, you describe how
15 that process went in Brcko and -- and the rather tense confrontation you
16 had with that group before you were able to arrest them.
17 Shortly after you had detained those Red Berets, you got a call
18 from somebody in Belgrade about them; is that right?
19 A. There was a clash that we had with the Red Berets in Bijeljina.
20 There was a situation there. They arrived in the early morning hours in
21 Bijeljina, and there was a clash between the Red Berets and the Radicals,
22 under Mirko Blagojevic. They entered Mirko Blagojevic's house, where they
23 had a headquarters of some kind. They tied him up. They used handcuffs
24 to tie him up, and they took him to Brcko. When we heard about this armed
25 group that had encircled the house, we went there, intercepted them, and
1 then we clashed with them. Shooting even broke out.
2 We managed to get Mirko Blagojevic out of the house after we had
3 stopped them and we took Mirko Blagojevic to the SUP. And then later they
4 asked what had been done -- they asked me why I had acted like this, since
5 I was part of the MUP. And then I spoke with someone from Belgrade. I
6 think I spoke to Frenki, but I'm not sure of this. And this is what I
7 told you when we first discussed the matter. He asked me, "Who authorised
8 you to do that? What are you doing there? Who sent you there,"
9 et cetera.
10 Q. And what did you respond to him?
11 A. What did I say? I said, "You've sent criminals there to loot and
12 steal things from people and now you want me to pass over that in silence.
13 So what is the purpose of me being here then?"
14 Q. What did you find out about Zika and this group of Red Berets in
15 terms of whether they were sent there by anyone or working for anyone or
16 they were an independent group? What information did you learn about
18 A. A while ago I spoke about this. The Crisis Staff informed me
19 about the fact that they had requested help. They went to Belgrade.
20 Bogdanovic promised that they would be assisted. And after that
21 discussion, a group was sent to help them, led by Zika Crnogorac. This
22 was information obtained from the Republic of Serbia MUP, because they
23 even had vehicles from the Republic of Serbia MUP. They wore red berets
24 and that is when the Red Berets first became engaged in the territory of
25 Bosnia and Herzegovina. And they didn't try to conceal the fact that
1 these forces were their forces under their control. And when we had a
2 clash with them in Brcko, when we tried to drive them out, I asked them to
3 go to Belgrade and to inform Bogdanovic about everything they had done in
4 Brcko and inform him of the reason for which they had requested that they
5 be expelled. I also wanted him to be informed of the fact that they
6 shouldn't be sent back to the area and they should be prevented from
7 acting in the way that they had acted.
8 Q. You mentioned that the Red Berets under Zika and another group
9 under Tito. Was Mauzer and his guard involved in any of the activity in
10 Brcko at this time?
11 A. Well, yes. His headquarters was in the hospital in Brcko, and he
12 and his entire unit held the front line from the factory towards Mauca
13 [phoen], I think -- Rahici, in fact.
14 Q. Once you had finished -- or were able to restore some sort of
15 semblance of law and order, as you mention in paragraph 124 of your
16 statement, in Brcko, where did you go next? What was your next area of
17 operation in trying to deal with the paramilitaries?
18 A. I went to Zvornik. I became involved in disarming paramilitary
19 formations there under Zuco and his brother Repic.
20 Q. And who did you work with in making plans for this operation to
22 A. Well, I also had contact with members of the service in Zvornik,
23 someone who worked in the Security Service would appear. I can't remember
24 his exact name. Similarly, I was visited by people from the Serbian MUP.
25 Mr. Jekic came to see me. He worked in the MUP of the Republic of Serbia
1 and he came to see me.
2 Q. Did you also work with Dragan Andan in the Zvornik operation as
4 A. Yes. He was with me all the time and he was also in charge of
5 the operative part of the action they had been assigned.
6 Q. I'd like to show you a document now dated the 20th of July. It's
7 number 19 on the list we've given the registry.
8 MR. HANNIS: If that can be given the next exhibit number.
9 THE REGISTRAR: P778.
10 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
11 Q. You mentioned in your statement in paragraph 126 that while you
12 were in Bijeljina, that Mico Stanisic came to see you. About Zvornik,
13 what did he tell you?
14 [French interpretation on the English channel]
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he told me that there were
16 paramilitary formations in Zvornik under the command of Zuco and certain
17 criminal acts were being admitted there. People who came from Pale were
18 being intercepted. They were stealing vehicles. They were looting. And
19 no one could confront them. He said that at the time they didn't have the
20 possibility to prevent that. They didn't have the forces to prevent such
21 acts. He gave a number of examples of vehicles being seized from
22 individuals passing through the area. And he mentioned some individuals,
23 including Mr. Ostojic, who I think was at the time a Minister of
24 Information in the government of the Republic of Serbia.
25 MR. HANNIS:
1 Q. And what was the reference to Mr. Ostojic about? How did that
2 have a connection with the paramilitaries in Zvornik?
3 A. I don't know. What do you mean "connection"? One of the persons
4 whose vehicle was seized was Mr. Ostojic, and he was then forced to get
5 out of the car. His vehicle was taken. He must have informed the
6 government and requested protection. So that was the climax. That's when
7 the situation came to a head in that area.
8 Q. Did he make a specific request of you regarding Zvornik?
9 A. Well, he asked for the paramilitary formation to be disarmed. He
10 said that we in the army and the special units from Sarajevo should be
11 engaged. This special unit from Sarajevo should come to the territory
12 and -- and join us in order to disarm the paramilitary formation.
13 Q. The document you have in front of you now, have you had a chance
14 to look at that? It's an information on the security situation in
15 Zvornik. And this is also signed by Dragan Andan as head of the Bijeljina
16 CSB. Have you seen that document before -- did you see it around the time
17 that you were preparing to go to Zvornik to deal with the paramilitaries?
18 A. Yes. This information was compiled at that time, when we were
19 supposed to go to Zvornik, and I was one of the persons who was involved
20 in drafting it. Novica Terzic was also involved in the information and
21 Dragan signed it because he was the chief of the station and he had the
22 authority to sign such a document. But I did not subsequently see the
23 document. This is the first time I've seen it since then.
24 Q. You mentioned in your statement at paragraph 129 and 130 that in
25 your initial planning, you were coordinating with the military and you had
1 a team of about 100 men, including the 14 from the federal SUP. Did --
2 did that team grow to include another agency?
3 A. Before we started preparing the operative action in detail, I was
4 visited in Bijeljina by Colonel or Lieutenant Colonel Salapura, who was
5 from the Main Staff. He was the deputy or assistant of Tolimir. He
6 worked in the Security Service and he provided me with all the information
7 that I already had, information they had obtained, and he asked for these
8 things to be prevented. He suggested that an army unit, a military police
9 unit from the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska army become engaged, and
10 this unit consisting -- composed of about 50 men was attached to me.
11 So in addition to the unit under my command, there was Salapura,
12 who was present with a military police unit, and I think there was an
13 officer called Pecanac [phoen], who was in charge of that group of 50 men.
14 And there was a special unit from Republika Srpska under the command of
15 Karisik, and there were 150 men in that unit. I was in charge of the
16 entire action.
17 Q. That special unit from the RS MUP under Karisik, was that at your
18 request that they were a part of the operation?
19 A. No, no. No. It wasn't at my request. I was even against
20 engaging that unit. I did not trust the men in that unit, although I had
21 known the unit since the time it had been established. I participated in
22 its establishment. But I didn't want it to become involved because I
23 thought that its involvement would have other consequences. And this
24 subsequently proved to be true.
25 Q. What were those other consequences that you were concerned about?
1 A. Well, I was worried about the fact that when the unit arrived in
2 the territory of Zvornik, where there was a lengthy border and where
3 people would cross the state border - that's the main point of entry into
4 Republika Srpska - I was concerned about the fact that such a unit would
5 be deployed there. I was concerned about the fact that they might do
6 certain things that resembled things that Zuco and his paramilitary
7 formation did. If they were in Zvornik and after the action had been
8 completed, that unit remained in the Hotel Drina, and in the Hotel
9 Vidikovac at the entrance to Zvornik, and they remained there for two
10 years for sure and they covered the entrance point to Republika Srpska.
11 They monitored all the goods that were going into Republika Srpska and
12 coming out of Republika Srpska, and they were the main people involved in
13 the trade that was spreading at the time.
14 Q. You said that you had reservations about having this unit as a
15 part of the operation. Who -- how did they get to be part of the
16 operation, if you had reservations and didn't want them? How did they
17 come to be imposed on you?
18 A. Well, this was an order issued by Mico Stanisic, the minister.
19 They were to be engaged on the basis of his order, regardless of what my
20 opinion was.
21 Q. And had the RS special unit been offered to you to help in
22 Bijeljina or in Brcko, when you were dealing with the paramilitaries in
23 those two locations?
24 A. No. No.
25 Q. Do you know of any reason why now, when you were going to
1 Zvornik, they were being made a part of the operation? Was there
2 something different about Zvornik?
3 A. I think I have just explained that. Because it's at the border;
4 it's an important point because goods are exported from Republika Srpska
5 at that point and taken into Republika Srpska.
6 Q. All right. I want to show you --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, have you dealt with the documents until
8 now? Are you moving to another subject or ...
9 MR. HANNIS: I am moving to another one now, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I would have two short questions. The
11 first, in relation to the document we dealt with last, that is, P778.
12 Do you, Mr. Davidovic, have that document in front of you?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you ...
15 Yes, you have got it in front of you.
16 And Madam Usher, would you please prepare 776 for the witness for
17 the next question.
18 Could you please read B/C/S, second page, semi-last paragraph,
19 the last sentence, in which the numbers 350.000 and 500.000 marks appear.
20 Could you please read that last sentence slowly. Could the witness please
21 do that. Could you please read that aloud, second page, B/C/S, semi-last
22 paragraph, last three lines of that paragraph, in which the numbers
23 350.000 and 500.000 appear. Could you please read that aloud slowly.
24 Mr. Davidovic, have you found it?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've found it. What should I
1 read out? I apologise.
2 MS. LOUKAS: Prior to that occurring, I'm just wondering --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MS. LOUKAS: -- if the Prosecution have a spare copy of the
5 document in question, as Mr. Krajisnik doesn't have the -- the B/C/S
6 version of that particular document.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Would you have one, Mr. Hannis?
8 MR. HANNIS: I can give him mine, of the B/C/S. It doesn't help
9 me much.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Davidovic, could you please read those three
11 lines aloud so that the interpreters can translate it.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Foreign currency, 350.000 German
13 marks were offered for this favour. They were offered by the
14 Green Berets. Whereas, Zuco had requested 500.000 German marks."
15 JUDGE ORIE: That clarifies the issue. If you would look at the
16 translation --
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction. The witness said 500
18 German marks.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes well, that's one of the things I can read
20 myself, that it is 500.000.
21 But, Mr. Hannis, the Green Berets offered the sum of 350.000, as
22 far as I now understand, and not asked. So translation should be
23 corrected in this respect. And then suddenly this sentence makes sense,
24 where it did not prior to this correction.
25 Now, the second question I'd like to put to you, Mr. Davidovic:
1 The report on Bijeljina, the first line reads: "It is public knowledge
2 that Muslim troops on the territory of authority of CSB Bijeljina began an
3 attack on April the 1st, 1992." Is that a -- does that reflect what
4 happened at that time? Does that correctly reflect ...
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Partially. The conflict that
6 started was started by the Muslim forces that tried to provoke a clash,
7 and it ended with this armed entrance of Arkan and his forces into
8 Bijeljina. Because the beginning of the war in Bijeljina was such that
9 there was a group of Muslims in front of the Istanbul Cafe and this group
10 set off towards the Serbia Cafe. They were carrying weapons,
11 hand-grenades, et cetera, and they wanted to clash with them. At that
12 time, checkpoints had already been set up around the town and there were
13 members of the Muslim forces there. As to whether that was to mount a
14 defence or to take control of the area, well, this is a subject that could
15 be debated. But there was information according to which it was the
16 Muslim forces that started the attack.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
18 Mr. Hannis, please proceed.
19 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 Q. In paragraph 144 of your statement -- I'm sorry. May I have a
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MR. HANNIS: Could we have the next item, a 31 July information,
24 be marked and given the next number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: P779.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 MR. HANNIS:
3 Q. Mr. Davidovic, in your statement in paragraphs 141 through 147,
4 you describe the operation in Zvornik and the fact that it was basically a
5 success. You arrested a large number of individuals and recovered a lot
6 of property. Could you take a look at that exhibit that's just been given
7 to you and tell us what that refers to.
8 A. Well, this is a report on what was done in Zvornik. A group of
9 individuals was arrested there, a group of individuals under the command
10 of Zuco, and a lot of vehicles and goods were seized.
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what the witness
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was a group whose intention
14 was just to engage in looting in that area.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: They had two kilos
16 of gold and jewellery.
17 MR. HANNIS:
18 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I'm reminded by the translators that sometimes you
19 speak too quickly or sometimes don't enunciate clearly enough for them.
20 Would you please keep that in mind.
21 This document appears to be from the MUP of Republika Srpska,
22 giving information about the end of your operation. In your statement,
23 you indicate that this was -- this was a matter of some widespread
24 publicity in that there were international and domestic journalists came
25 to report about it. I see there's no mention of your special unit in the
1 MUP information. Do you know why that would be?
2 A. I don't know. At the bottom it says: "The security situation in
3 Zvornik is more favourable than during the previous days in respect of the
4 measures planned and one can expect the situation to be further
5 stabilised." That is what it says.
6 Q. Did you participate in any of the press announcements or
7 interviews with the journalists after this operation occurred?
8 A. When these individuals were brought in in Bijeljina, when they
9 were taken into custody, on the following day, in the premises of the MUP,
10 a press conference was held at which there were about 100 journalists.
11 Half of them were from abroad. On that day, a delegation had arrived from
12 the international press centre in Belgrade. There was a group of
13 journalists, two buses, and they asked for more detailed information about
14 the paramilitary formations. And it just so happened that I had to attend
15 the press conference and I told them what the service had done and I also
16 told them about the number of individuals arrested. I took those
17 journalists out into the yard and showed them these individuals all lined
18 up. They had been taken out from 11 detention cells, and I had lined them
19 up so that the journalists could put questions to them about the
20 circumstances under which they had been taken into custody.
21 Q. And what happened with these -- all these men you arrested in
22 Zvornik at that time? How -- how were they dealt with? How were they
24 A. For those people where we felt they had committed some crimes -
25 and I mean Zuco and his brother - I think there was a journalist from the
1 Duga magazine there, and so other people who were members of that leading
2 structure -- well, there was a criminal report filed and all the documents
3 were submitted and the prosecutor's offices in Bijeljina were informed,
4 and they were kept in custody, whereas other people who were involved in
5 those paramilitary formations were made available to the military
6 authorities and -- in other words, it was in order to avoid them being
7 into any paramilitary units and they had to become incorporated into the
8 official Armed Forces of the Republika Srpska and then the armed forces
9 would deploy units and assign tasks to them.
10 Q. And my question is -- is a more general one: In terms of where
11 they went after they were taken into custody, what happened to those men?
12 Were they taken somewhere from Zvornik by -- by the police or by those of
13 you who arrested them?
14 A. The police put them on buses, and they were taken directly to the
15 Drina division and they were made available to the commander of that
16 division. I can't remember who he was at the time, because I did not go
17 along. There was an armed escort, and so the police took them on those
18 buses and they had lists and everything.
19 Q. Were they -- were they questioned or interviewed in the process?
20 A. In the course of proceedings, we interviewed all of them and
21 obtained information that they had. As to those who had more information,
22 we took detailed statements from them and we did not bother with others.
23 We just had a brief talk with them and then they were released. There are
24 quite a few statements on record. I can't remember the exact numbers, but
25 we actually documented everything that took place at Zvornik.
1 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'd like to have the next item marked
2 as an exhibit. Perhaps this would be a good time for a break.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's a good time for a break, but not
4 until after I've given Ms. Loukas an opportunity to address us, because
5 there was an issue you'd like to briefly raise, but I take it not in the
6 presence of the witness.
7 MS. LOUKAS: That's correct, Your Honour. I'm happy to do that
8 at the beginning of the next session because there's just a detail I
9 wanted to check --
10 JUDGE ORIE: I would have -- you have to check something?
11 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I will make one short announcement. It's
13 the following: The dossiers have been filed and the Chamber had indicated
14 that if within seven days of filing there would be no objection, that they
15 would be admitted. This is to announce to the Defence that the Chamber
16 has asked further information about the dossiers in respect of Kotor Varos
17 and Vogosca, so that you're aware that -- just to clarify the issue,
18 Ms. Loukas, the one is about more than one document found under one tab
19 and the other one is about the number where good cause should be shown if
20 you go beyond the numbers set by the Chamber.
21 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you for that, Your Honour. And I can
22 indicate your assistant conveyed that information thoughtfully to me just
23 shortly prior -- prior to Your Honours coming on to the bench.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine. But I think if the Chamber asks
25 for further information to the Prosecution, the Defence should be aware of
2 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. And I'm most pleased to
3 know that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll adjourn until ten past 1.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 12.50 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, you'd like to address us.
8 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. Two short matters, just quickly.
9 Firstly, there's a witness that's scheduled June 27, 28. I won't mention
10 the name, but the -- only the KRAJ number, 648. In relation to that,
11 there's records of interview or what have you, and they are only in
12 English. I spoke with Mr. Tieger for the Prosecution during the break
13 and -- and, of course, the situation being that Mr. Krajisnik would like
14 the opportunity to read it, as it doesn't exist in B/C/S. And we tried to
15 come to some sort of arrangement whereby this could occur. And, of
16 course, it's -- it's -- it's critical that Mr. Krajisnik also have an
17 opportunity to read this particular document in -- in B/C/S.
18 We tried to come to some sort of arrangement whereby the
19 Prosecution would try to translate half and I could see what could be done
20 with the CLSS in that way. I made some inquiries, and it was indicated to
21 me that in view of the fact that it would not necessarily be an exhibit,
22 that they did not feel that it would fall within their purview. They --
23 the message that I received appeared to indicate that there may be
24 something I can do with the registry in that regard. And I've tried to
25 call the -- the registry to see if we can do something about it. But, of
1 course, clearly, in terms of the proceedings and the rights of the
2 accused, where there is a document in English and it is to be referred to
3 by the Prosecution and not necessarily become an exhibit, it is something
4 that Mr. Krajisnik should have the opportunity to read in his own
6 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any audio available from that interview?
7 I see --
8 MR. HANNIS: I'm told that there is, Your Honour.
9 MS. LOUKAS: But nevertheless, of course, audio, Your Honour, has
10 problems of its own, because to listen to something takes a lot longer
11 than to read something. And we're dealing with something that is about
12 270 pages. So to -- to listen to something on an audio, as opposed to
13 being in a position to read something and also highlight it as it were and
14 be able to refer to it, that's another question again.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think you're encouraged to continue to seek
16 for a solution of that. Although, if a statement is not to become an
17 exhibit --
18 MS. LOUKAS: Well, it may or may not. It -- who knows at this
19 point, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. If it becomes an exhibit, it's
21 quite clear it should be -- it should be there in translation.
22 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed.
23 JUDGE ORIE: If not, however, under the, I would say, standing
24 case law, the OTP does not have to produce a translation if an audio is
25 there. But if there are specific portions -- and Ms. Loukas, perhaps you
1 could also look at the English to see whether there are certain areas
2 which are of more importance than others and perhaps try to find a mixed
3 solution where you say, "Well, based on our preliminary selection, these
4 and these portions are such that we'd prefer to -- Mr. Krajisnik read them
5 in B/C/S as well as -- not just listening to the audio," and then perhaps
6 some parts that --
7 MS. LOUKAS: Well, nevertheless, Mr. Krajisnik himself has
8 expressed the wish to be able to read the document in its -- in its
9 entirety. And I think that's not an unreasonable wish, in the
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, all this case law developed upon the existence
12 of a wish to read. I think that's as such clear enough to tell you that
13 the mere wish of Mr. Krajisnik, of course, could not be the answer to the
14 case law. But let's not --
15 MS. LOUKAS: And --
16 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, we cannot resolve the matter at this very
17 moment in court. We'll further look into the matter, and everyone is
18 encouraged to see whether any solution could be found.
19 MS. LOUKAS: And that's what Mr. Tieger and I have been
20 attempting to do, to --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MS. LOUKAS: -- find a solution to this issue, and hopefully we
23 can come to a solution that satisfies the --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MS. LOUKAS: -- rights of the accused and the wishes that would
1 make it in fact more efficient and effective to ensure that the -- the
2 material is covered.
3 The second point I wanted to go to, Your Honour, was this: As
4 Your Honours are aware, I've been dealing with the most -- I finished
5 cross-examining the expert, Mr. Nielsen, earlier this week. I'm currently
6 dealing with -- with this witness. Lead counsel has indicated that he
7 wishes me or directs me to also undertake the third witness, who directly
8 follows this witness. In the circumstances, Your Honour, I'm just
9 wondering if I could ensure that there is some break between the end of
10 this witness's evidence and the beginning of the next.
11 I'm wondering if, in terms of the negotiation of the schedule --
12 and I've attempted to have a preliminary discussion about this with the
13 Prosecution. I'm just wondering if the witness that is to follow could,
14 in fact, follow Mr. Stewart's next witness. I'm not sure if he's
15 protected or not, so I won't mention his name. But that's 677 that I'm
16 talking about. So, Your Honour, that would give me an adequate
17 opportunity to ensure that I have an opportunity to read the material.
18 Because quite frankly, I'm going to need all weekend for this witness.
19 And I -- it's not -- in terms of the time available, it's not conceivable
20 that I could also deal with the one there following, unless we could
21 interpose 677, deal with his evidence, and then I could deal with that
22 witness. Because I'm also doing the other witness after that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MS. LOUKAS: I'm just trying to come to a schedule that can
25 ensure that I can perform my duties as a Defence counsel effectively in
1 relation to each witness.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think there's as such full understanding for
3 you -- for the wish you expressed, Ms. Loukas. Of course, the problem is
4 not whether once a certain interval would be granted but, of course, the
5 issue is whether that's incidental or whether that would happen all the
6 time and --
7 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, you -- of course you are aware of the
9 scheduling order issued by this Chamber.
10 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And scheduling within those limits, the Chamber
12 accepts a lot in respect of what is agreed between the parties. But if it
13 would in any way put in danger the scheduling order, then the Chamber
14 would have a close look at it and carefully look at whether it's really
15 necessary or not.
16 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: So --
18 MS. LOUKAS: And I think that this is something that can perhaps
19 be negotiated in such a way that there -- there's no need to waste any
20 court days, as it were, but that also ensures that the Defence has an
21 adequate opportunity to prepare each witness properly.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber expects further information from
23 the parties on whether they could work on a schedule that would fit within
24 the scheduling order.
25 MS. LOUKAS: As Your Honour pleases.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then the witness may be brought into the
3 Mr. Hannis, could you give us any indication on how much time you
4 would need?
5 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I'm going to need the rest of the
6 session and --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. That would certainly also meet
8 Ms. Loukas's wishes not to start cross-examination this week.
9 MR. HANNIS: And I may find out that I'm not done at 2.15, Your
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. HANNIS: And I'll address you at that time.
13 JUDGE ORIE: On the one hand, I'm aware that the Chamber has put
14 a lot of questions to the witness as well. That certainly has taken some
15 time. But in view of your 89(F) estimate, I would say that if we take
16 that estimate as a start, add the time taken by the Judges, that we'd be
17 approximately finished by now.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, please proceed.
20 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Davidovic, we were still talking about Zvornik and the arrest
22 of the Yellow Wasps and those related persons. I want to show you the
23 next item, which --
24 MR. HANNIS: If we could give it an exhibit number. This --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: P780.
2 MR. HANNIS: -- consists of a cover letter, a report, and some
3 attached statements or interviews relating to this matter.
4 Q. You've described for us the process of how the arrested men were
5 questioned. For the moment, could you just look at the cover page and
6 tell me if you recognise the name at the bottom of that document.
7 A. Yes. It was Goran Macar, who at the time was in charge of
8 fighting crime within MUP of the Republika Srpska.
9 Q. And then if you could look at the next page, which is described
10 as "Information on MUP activities on exposing the criminal activity of
11 Yellow Wasps in Zvornik."
12 Had you seen that document before you came here to prepare for
14 A. Yes, a few days ago you showed it to me, but I had never seen it
16 Q. Do you recall -- do you recall having read it and -- and can you
17 tell us if it was generally an accurate description of what you had
18 learned in the course of carrying out this operation and arresting these
19 Yellow Wasps.
20 A. As a whole, it described what we did, but only the basics were
21 included there, not the details referring to the entire operation and the
22 way in which it was carried out. There is reference here to the fact that
23 certain amounts of money, then vehicles and gold that had been taken, that
24 was the case. It does not say here who did it and how come. I don't know
25 whether you need me to say anything else. I mean, to pinpoint the most
1 essential bits.
2 Q. No, that's -- that's all I wanted to ask you about that right
4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I wanted to indicate to the Judges and
5 to the Defence counsel that with this report, in it itself it says are
6 attached 65 statements. We have something like -- in the order of 17
7 statements attached, because those are the only ones we have translated at
8 this point. I anticipate that we may be trying to complete those
9 translations, disclose them to the Defence, and offer them at a later
10 time. Witness 682, who was one of the newest witnesses added, is able to
11 speak to this issue, and we would propose at that time or perhaps in the
12 Zvornik municipality binder to include those additional statements upon
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please, you keep in mind what the 23rd, 24th,
15 35th statement brings new to the previous ones.
16 MR. HANNIS: I understand, Your Honour. Thank you.
17 Q. Now, after this operation in Zvornik, what happened to the -- the
18 leaders, Zuco and the journalist that you mentioned -- the leaders of this
19 group? Were they -- were they prosecuted at that time?
20 A. We prepared the documents and submitted a criminal report to the
21 military prosecutor in Bijeljina, so they were meant to be detained, but
22 as soon as we withdrew from that area, all proceedings were suspended and
23 they were released.
24 MR. HANNIS: Could the next item be given the next exhibit number
25 and shown to the witness, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: P781.
3 MR. HANNIS: This is a document dated the 28th of August, 1992.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would have a question for you,
6 Mr. Davidovic.
7 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Microphone not activated]
8 [Interpretation] Yes, I do apologise for interrupting the flow of
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could we have the microphone for the Judge,
12 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] When the witness says: [In
13 English]: "All proceedings were suspended and they were released,"
14 [Interpretation] I can see what you mean, but how do you know that?
15 And secondly, who suspended those proceedings? What authority
16 made the decision? Do you know anything about that?
17 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, if I may, this next document will speak
18 to that issue.
19 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Oh, in that case, I do
20 apologise. So it was a useless question, but I couldn't have known.
21 MR. HANNIS: No, you anticipated me well, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Davidovic, in light of that question from Judge Hanoteau,
23 could you take a look at the document you've just been shown and tell us
24 what that is.
25 A. This is a decision about releasing this group from custody. It
1 was Zuco, his brother Repic, and other people who had been taken into
2 custody. And the decision came from the court at Bijeljina, and the judge
3 was called Biljana, who was the investigating magistrate of that court.
4 And since the prosecutor did not ask for any proceedings to be instituted
5 against them, that's why they were released from custody.
6 Q. Now, you mentioned that among the leaders of this group, one man
7 was a journalist. Can you tell us from those names which one of those was
8 the journalist, if you know?
9 A. I think it was Milan Timotic, who introduced himself as simply
10 from Duga, from Belgrade. That's what he said.
11 Q. In this document, this indicates that the allegations against
12 these men were that they commandeered passenger vehicles and documents,
13 objects and values -- valuables all of a value exceeding 5.000 dinars.
14 There doesn't appear to be a reference to any other kind of criminal
16 Based on your information in and your investigation and the report
17 you wrote and -- referring it for prosecution, were there any other crimes
18 that these men were alleged to have been involved in, or was it only the
20 A. We did not take any other data except for that theft and robbery.
21 That was what we were looking into. But we did know that prior to those
22 thefts and robbery they had also been committing murders. I'm not talking
23 about mass murder, but they did murder a group of civilians at Celopek,
24 and I got that report from MUP in Zvornik. And they were also identified
25 in that report as people who are prone to killing and would not stop at
2 Q. I want to move now to events after the Zvornik operation. You
3 were based in Belgrade, but your home was still in Bijeljina. How often
4 were you returning to your home in 1992, to your home in Bijeljina? I
5 know you mentioned one weekend. How frequently did you go?
6 A. Whenever it was possible, I would go home, normally on weekends,
7 Saturdays and Sundays. But if I was busy on the weekends, sometimes I
8 went during the week, because I had my wife and children and my parents
9 there. So any time off I had, I would just go to Bijeljina.
10 Q. In -- in paragraphs 149 to 165 of your statement, you describe
11 in -- in some detail how the local SDS Crisis Staff planned and carried
12 out ethnic cleansing in Bijeljina. And you say in your statement: "This
13 plan was discussed in front of me."
14 Could you give us some details about that. First of all, where
15 did that occur, that the plan for ethnic cleansing in Bijeljina was
16 discussed in front of you? Where did that happen?
17 A. It was in the town hall at the office of the Executive Council
18 president, Mr. Kojic, Savo Kojic, who was the president of the Executive
19 Committee, and he was present at that -- in the course of those talks and
20 the president of the Assembly at the time.
21 Q. And can you tell us approximately when that was? A month, if you
22 don't know the date.
23 A. It was not at the very beginning when I came to Bijeljina with
24 the unit. Perhaps -- well, it was between five and ten days later. And
25 the reason why I went to the town hall was their request for me to stop
1 protecting Muslims and to stop interfering with their policies. What I
2 mean is at the time travel documents were being still issued at Bijeljina,
3 and there were calls for Muslims to be issued with those documents in
4 order for them to leave. And they were outraged and they said that my
5 arrival had put a stop to all that and that I was protecting Muslims. And
6 they started telling me about history, and they wanted to -- what was I
7 doing and did I know who Semberija belonged to and who gave me the right
8 to oppose that. And I was criticised for protecting them and I was asked,
9 you know, why had I come there in the first place. And that was the first
10 time I heard, when he mentioned at the first Assembly meeting, he said
11 that the decision would be made for all Muslims to be taken into military
12 units, to become conscripts, and for those who refused to be sacked and
13 for electricity and water -- and telephone lines to be switched off, and
14 whoever opposed it could be referred to the so-called collection centre at
15 Batkovic, which was being set up in the area of a former co-operative
16 farm, Semberija.
17 Q. You mentioned in paragraph 150 that -- that Mauzer and Kojic and
18 Nikic did most of the talking at this meeting. Do you remember who else,
19 if anyone, was present besides those three and yourself?
20 A. The president of the Municipal Assembly, Mr. Vojinovic, was
21 there, and Cican Simic, and I think the secretary of the Municipal
22 Assembly was there. I'm not really certain about that, so do take it with
23 a grain of salt. I think his name was Vojinovic, something like that.
24 I'm not sure.
25 Q. You also say in that paragraph that certain members of the local
1 SDS and the Crisis Staff compiled lists of names of Muslims for cleansing,
2 and you say that you saw a list of names that were held by Moco Stankovic.
3 Can you tell us the circumstances under which you saw that list. When and
4 where did that happen?
5 A. I knew Moco Stankovic and Professor Petrovic and most of them who
6 were more or less active members of SDS. Mr. Moco Stankovic was the
7 president of the local SDS in Bijeljina, and as such he had the authority
8 to draw up a list of people who should be expelled and he compiled that
9 list and through Mauzer and through the Security Services it was done in
10 that way.
11 I must provide you with another detail. When I left Bijeljina,
12 when I went back to Belgrade, I intervened with Moco Stankovic on a number
13 of occasions and asked him to take some people off that list and protect
14 them. To a considerable extent, he complied, I must say. Some people did
15 get taken off the list, and for others he refused, in spite of the fact
16 that I asked him to protect them.
17 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask for one clarification. Did I
18 understand well that the president of the Municipal Assembly was called
19 Mr. Vojinovic and that his secretary was called Mr. -- let me just see.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vujic.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Vujic. I was a bit confused about names so similar.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Hannis.
24 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
25 Q. You mentioned in paragraph 151 that Drago Vukovic and Predrag
1 Jesuric were placed in charge of the first phase of this plan. Who was
2 Drago Vukovic? You mention him as a -- as a member of either the local
3 SDS or the Crisis Staff. What was his position in town?
4 A. Drago was a member of the Crisis Staff, but his position was
5 chief of the State Security Service, the secret police service of the
6 Republika Srpska. He was the head of that department in Bijeljina for
7 Central Bosnia. So Drago Vukovic, I knew him from before. He had worked
8 before at the republican MUP, and then just before the war, he left that
9 MUP and so he worked as a journalist at TV Sarajevo up until the war, and
10 after the war he came to Bijeljina because his wife was from Bijeljina,
11 and he joined the SDS and was with them from day one.
12 Q. Yesterday you -- you told us at one point in time about a man
13 named Vojkan Djurkovic, who was involved in some of this activity of
14 moving Muslims out of Bijeljina. In paragraph 158, you talk about a -- a
15 particular incident where you had contact with him and he showed you a
16 document authorising him to carry out the work of humanitarian
17 resettlement of the Muslim population.
18 From -- and you say you actually saw that document. From what
19 agency or person did that document come?
20 A. First of all, I must say that I had that conflict with Djurkovic
21 only after I had left Bijeljina with my unit. That was one weekend when I
22 came to Bijeljina. I cycled to town -- or rather, I went to a certain
23 place. And when Djurkovic saw me, he stopped me and he started asking me
24 who I was -- who I thought I was, why I was trying to prevent them from
25 doing what they were doing. He said he was the only person who had the
1 authority to do what he was doing. And there was a tense situation when
2 he said, "Who authorised you to act in such a way?" And then he showed me
3 this document, and it said that Djurkovic from Bijeljina had been
4 authorised to resettle people in a humane way and it said that he
5 shouldn't be obstructed, and it said the president of the Assembly, in the
6 heading of the document, and there was Krajisnik's signature.
7 After that incident, I regretted having not confronted him,
8 having taken him away. He was the sort of person who was cowardly. And
9 that same day I saw Mico Mandic [phoen] and asked him why they were taking
10 people, what they were doing. He said, "I can't confront that. I'm
11 familiar with that very same document," and he said that he had heard --
12 he said that Mr. Krajisnik had been told about this and Krajisnik replied
13 that he should not meddle. That's all I can say about that.
14 Q. It's a translation -- it's a translation issue, Mr. Davidovic.
15 In your statement, at paragraph 158, I know you say and the other person
16 that you know of who saw this document was Dragoljub Micic, the
17 representative in the National Assembly from Bijeljina. In the transcript
18 it shows up as "Mico Mandic." Can you tell us what's correct. I think
19 perhaps the transcript --
20 A. Micic. He was a representative from the republic. It wasn't
21 Mandic. That's a mistake. It was Micic.
22 Q. Thank you. Paragraph --
23 A. If I may add something.
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. Later -- when the Presiding Judge put a question to me and asked
1 me who Djurkovic was, there is one explanation I failed to provide, and I
2 think it's important. Djurkovic is someone who was trained in Erdut and
3 he participated in the fighting in the Croatian battlefield with Arkan.
4 And when a headquarters was established in Badovinci, where is where there
5 was a training ground at the border between Serbia and the Republic of
6 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Djurkovic was one of Arkan's instructors in the
7 camp where he trained members of the volunteer units who went there. I do
8 apologise, but I thought it would be important to point this out.
9 Q. Thank you for that. I want to ask you another question about
10 him. In paragraph 165, you mention that Djurkovic told you that he was
11 paid well for this job that he was doing. What did he say about the money
12 he was getting in connection with the humanitarian resettlement of
14 A. On a number of occasions, he made certain claims. I had frequent
15 contact with him because of the people he was taking away. And he said
16 that this was to his benefit, and not only to his benefit. He said that
17 there was a lot of money involved and that I shouldn't meddle in the
18 matter. He said that it was to his advantage and to the advantage of
19 others who made all of this possible.
20 Q. Did he say who the others were or who else was benefitting from
21 the money that was being made?
22 A. He said that he would share this money with Arkan and some of the
23 money would be taken to the headquarters in Pale, to Krajisnik and
24 Karadzic. Sometimes he would personally deliver the money. He even said
25 that he delivered the money in a plastic bag on one occasion. And he
1 didn't only tell me about this. He told others about this business. And
2 he said that he would sometimes send money through Luka Karadzic, through
3 Momcilo's brother, and in that way he facilitated the delivery of this
5 A number of people told me that when Vojkan would go to Pale and
6 when someone from Bijeljina was there, he could then go to see the
7 President. He could see Karadzic and Krajisnik without having announced
8 himself. And this pointed to the fact that what he was doing was done
9 having obtained authorisation from them, and they were fully aware of --
10 of what he was doing.
11 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, next I would like to play a video. If
12 we could give that a number and hand around the transcript. I don't know
13 what our numbering process is for videos.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: The videotape will be P782. The transcript will
16 be 782A. The translation of the transcript will be P782A.1.
17 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. And as soon as everyone has a copy of
18 the transcript, we'll play that. It's about a three-minute segment.
19 [Videotape played]
20 BBC Correspondent: He was one of the 60 fighters who seized the
21 town of the Serbs at the beginning of the war. Vojkan was especially
22 proud of his expensive Italian sunglasses. Men like him are doing very
23 well these days in the Bosnian Serb republic. At his office, Vojkan had
24 assembled some of the last Muslims ... in population. That means he's in
25 charge of ethnic cleansing. A report prepared for the UN says he's led
1 groups of armed men who have been terrorising the Muslim community.
2 Vojkan cheerfully denies it all.
3 Vojkan Djurkovic: [No interpretation]
4 BBC Correspondent: He's turned ethnic cleansing into an official
5 procedure and turned Bijeljina into such an ethnically Serbian town that
6 these Muslims are desperate to get out.
7 Vojkan Djurkovic: [No interpretation]
8 BBC Correspondent: When permission came through for them to
9 leave, Vojkan made sure we were there.
10 Vojkan Djurkovic: [No interpretation]
11 BBC Correspondent: He gave them time to say their good-byes and
12 to pack up the few possessions that hadn't been stolen. Deportations are
13 no longer done at gunpoint. But Serbs like Vojkan are no less determined
14 to remove Muslims from their towns. It's still ethnic cleansing.
15 The bus dropped them near the front line. They had to walk the
16 last few hundred yards across no man's land. Bosnian government soldiers
17 were expecting them. Vojkan Djurkovic insists he's doing these people a
18 favour. He calls himself a social worker. He believes he'll soon be
19 offered the Nobel Prize for Peace.
20 Vojkan Djurkovic: [No interpretation]
21 MR. HANNIS:
22 Q. Near the end, Mr. Djurkovic is seen to say -- he was talking
23 about they were tourists and going to Berlin and they were free to return.
24 To your knowledge, at that time in Bijeljina were they free to return?
25 A. No. All those who left and didn't return until after the Dayton
1 Agreement had been signed and peace had been established, then some of
2 these people returned. But at the time, no one would have even thought of
4 Q. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
6 MR. HANNIS: That's all I have about that, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Hannis, of course we have a problem
8 because there's no French transcript of certain parts of this video. The
9 parts that were spoken in B/C/S and were translated on our screens in
10 English were not read out and therefore not translated into French. So we
11 have a problem there. We'll consider how to resolve that.
12 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour --
13 JUDGE ORIE: One of -- yes.
14 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry. I hadn't -- I hadn't realised that Your
15 Honour hadn't finished.
16 JUDGE ORIE: One of the possibilities would be to file a French
17 translation of the transcript or to have it replayed and then to have the
18 English translation as it appears on the screen and in the transcript,
19 that it's spoken out loudly and then translated into French. But at this
20 moment we have an incomplete transcript, especially in the French
22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honours, you saw it was about three -- three
23 and a half minutes. I don't know what the Court's preference is in terms
24 of time.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it's a bit difficult. In this
1 courtroom, some 25 people are kept busy every minute, so three minutes is
2 25 times three makes 75. I do not know how much time it takes to have
3 this -- this exhibit translated.
4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I think that makes more sense. We'll
5 be happy to do that.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I'll -- I leave it --
7 MR. HANNIS: And I can provide that Monday perhaps -- well, I
8 don't want to commit my language assistant to --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yeah, especially not over the weekend, I take it,
10 Mr. Hannis.
11 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It's not a matter of great urgency, but it's a
13 matter of the completeness of the transcript of the trial, which at this
14 moment seems not to hinder any of the parties to proceed.
15 MS. LOUKAS: No, that's -- that's fine, Your Honour. The only
16 point I would make in respect of this specific video, of course, it's
17 quite clear that what we have is a great deal of commentary from the
18 journalist himself. And I take it the Prosecution are not in fact putting
19 forward all the commentary and nor could they in the circumstances. And
20 it seems to me that -- and quite frankly, I'd be objecting to -- to the
21 commentary overall. It just seems to me the Prosecution is asking for
22 that bit of --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel speak into the microphone,
24 please. Thank you.
25 MS. LOUKAS: I've moved away from the microphone.
1 That bit of commentary right at the end about they're free to
2 return, it seems to me that's the only portion that the Prosecution are
3 seeking of the commentary there from the journalist.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.
5 MR. HANNIS: Well, that wasn't commentary from the journalist.
6 That was -- those were the words of Mr. Djurkovic. I am seeking the words
7 of Mr. Djurkovic.
8 As far as commentary of the journalist in terms of his conclusion
9 about whether this is ethnic cleansing or not, I'm not proposing that as
10 part of our evidence, Your Honour. That's not -- that's -- that's for you
11 to decide based on everything you hear, and what a BBC correspondent isn't
12 the evidence in this case.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the correspondent says that he was one of
14 the 60 fighters, then of course we would not on the basis of that
15 statement establish that there were 60 fighters.
16 On the other hand, sometimes it is important to see whether --
17 whether any journalists contradict what appears from the other evidence,
18 which might make you more cautious. So to that extent, Ms. Loukas, I
19 think we do agree that this is not the way to establish facts. At the
20 same time, you could not say that it never could have any relevance to
21 look at it, especially if the -- if the reporters at that time came with a
22 totally different story. That's not to say that that story is true but at
23 least to establish that there were two different stories around.
24 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, indeed, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MS. LOUKAS: And I'm not approaching it from that angle. But it
2 just seems to me --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's clear that we will not on the
4 basis of an unknown voice-over establish facts.
5 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
6 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Mr. Davidovic, the video we just watched, is the person shown in
8 that video as Vojkan Djurkovic the same Vojkan Djurkovic that you've been
9 talking about having dealings with in Bijeljina?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And finally, in the remaining time, I want to go forward and --
12 and ask you about something that happened when you were working at the
13 federal SUP after all your experiences in 1992, when you were working in
14 state security.
15 In approximately May of 1993, when there was an Assembly session
16 in connection with the proposed Vance-Owen Peace Plan, do you recall
17 having been involved in the security that was provided to the dignitaries
18 attending that session, the foreign dignitaries, including Mr. Milosevic,
19 the head of the Greek government, and the RS officials?
20 A. Before you put certain other questions to me, you've said that I
21 later started working for the state security. I did not in fact do that.
22 I was in the public security service. I performed the same duties. I
23 still had a uniform, and I performed the duties that I used to perform in
24 the Federal Secretariat. I had to escort dignitaries, federal civil
25 servants, representatives from other countries, and that is what the
1 federal MUP was involved in. So among other things, I had to escort these
2 representatives from other countries, from the United Nations, and these
3 were the regular duties that we had to perform.
4 Similarly, I -- when it comes to Mr. Mitsotakis, the prime
5 minister of Greece, who came to visit Serbia -- or rather, Yugoslavia, on
6 that morning he continued to Bosnia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and then the
7 question was how the prime minister of Greece could go to
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina without the agreement of the federal authorities.
9 There was a dilemma, and finally he went to part of Republika Srpska, to
10 Pale, to attend the adoption of the Vance-Owen Plan. And I was
11 responsible for his visit and for escorting him there.
12 Q. Let me stop you there. In connection with your duties on that
13 occasion, did you have a chance to stand in during a meeting of the SDS
14 Deputies Club?
15 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honours, I object to any leading whatsoever on
16 this topic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, of course, a question always leads to
18 the extent that it makes clear that what kind of information you are
19 seeking. Mr. Hannis, I do understand the sensitivity of the issue. Could
20 you please see whether you can formulate your questions in such a way that
21 they are not leading in any unacceptable way.
22 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I guess I'm unclear on this. I was
23 just trying to ask him yes or no, did he have occasion to be present at a
24 particular event. If he did, then I will ask him what happened. If he
25 wasn't, then that's the end of my questions.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that Ms. Loukas even has a problem
2 with the kind of event you are asking.
3 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour, yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, of course, you couldn't ask a witness:
5 Have you ever been present at an event, Ms. Loukas. So to that extent,
6 you should direct the attention of the witness to something that you'd
7 like to know.
8 MS. LOUKAS: Oh, indeed --
9 JUDGE ORIE: And I invited Mr. Hannis to do it in such a way not
10 unacceptably leading.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. HANNIS: I'll try it this way, Your Honour. I'll try this
15 Q. In paragraph 184, you say there was an Assembly session held and
16 that there was a meeting at 10.00 p.m. At this meeting, you were wearing
17 your uniform as a security officer, and you say it appeared that there
18 were two camps, Dodik and the non-SDS deputies on the one hand and the SDS
19 deputies on the other. What happened around midnight that night? Were
20 you present from 10.00 p.m. on?
21 A. Well, I would first have to say or tell you about what happened
22 earlier on so that I later arrived at the meeting that was held at night.
23 I think it's important for me to tell you how it is and that I attended
24 that meeting, and then I will be able to answer the second part of your
25 question. If I may.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you could do that very briefly, because the
2 question was what happened at midnight. But if there's any need to have a
3 short introduction, but keep it please short. We are under some time
4 restraints, Mr. Davidovic.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went there with a group of people
6 who were responsible for the reception of Mitsotakis and Cosic, who was
7 the president of Yugoslavia at the time. And the chief of protocol and
8 the chief of security for providing escorts were present at a meeting
9 attended by Karadzic, Krajisnik, the Minister of Internal Affairs at the
10 time, who was Hadzic, and I think that there was another person present
11 whom I didn't know. And we informed them in detail about the arrival of
12 Mitsotakis, Cosic and the others, and we informed them about protocol
13 details that would be relevant on the following day. That was the purpose
14 of my presence.
15 And as for the security issues I was involved in later -- well, I
16 spent that night in Pale and a group of people that had come with me
17 returned to Belgrade that night. And when I stayed there, it was possible
18 for me to communicate with representatives who were there.
19 JUDGE ORIE: What at this moment are you talking about? Mr. --
20 are you talking about the Greek minister or are you -- it's not entirely
21 clear to me.
22 Mr. Hannis has drawn your attention to paragraph 184 of the
23 transcript from -- from the transcript of the -- which is about an
24 Assembly session to be held at Hotel Bistrica on Mount Jahorina and
25 deputies and journalists had gathered there for a 10.00 p.m. meeting,
1 10.00 at night. And you said: "While attending this meeting, I wore the
2 uniform of a security officer and I was able to get -- to go to any
3 location because of my status. I knew 90 per cent of the assembled
4 deputies. It was apparent that there were two camps, Dodik and the
5 non-SDS deputies on the one hand and the SDS deputies on the other."
6 When you described that situation, Mr. Hannis would like to know
7 what happened on that same day at midnight. So that's two hours later
8 from what you describe in 184.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At about midnight, the
10 representatives of the representative club of the SDS called me. They
11 functioned independently. They were independent of all the other parties
12 that were in the Assembly at the time. I am thinking of the Movement for
13 Yugoslavia above all; Dodik and some others were members of that party.
14 But the club -- there was a club of representatives of the Serbian
15 Democratic Party. I think Vojin Maksimovic was the president of the club
16 and he had called that Assembly, or rather, he had asked for a meeting to
17 be held and Mr. Krajisnik attended it. They were preparing for the
18 Assembly session to be held on the following day, when representatives
19 from Greece and Yugoslavia arrived. And they started make serious
20 preparations for the meeting to be held the following day, and they also
21 indicated that on the following day there could be certain doubts as to
22 whether to accept or reject the Vance-Owen Plan.
23 Krajisnik didn't want the Vance-Owen Plan to be accepted. He
24 wanted the Assembly to reject this plan. He also said that in the course
25 of the Assembly session we had to see how the representatives -- or the
1 deputies from the SDS would act. He said we had to pay much attention to
2 this. And he said that Milosevic could be very convincing and that when
3 he appeared, he could influence the deputies at such an Assembly session
4 and this would be very unfavourable for Republika Srpska. He said it
5 would be very disadvantageous and that one should resist his attempts to
6 influence us.
7 They also said that after Milosevic had taken the floor, someone
8 should take the floor to attack Milosevic, to oppose Milosevic and to
9 oppose his support for the plan and prevent other individuals from
10 supporting his position. And then certain deputies, who were well known
11 for their fiery rhetoric, were called. I think Mr. Vjestica, one of the
12 deputies from the Bihac area, was supposed to take the floor to attack the
13 proposed plan and to contest it. It was also said that if there was a
14 discussion in favour of accepting the plan, he would then give the floor
15 to the deputies who weren't accepting the plan. There might be deputies
16 who would accept the plan, but they would then give the floor to
17 representatives from the Serbian Democratic Party, who would be very fiery
18 when expressing their position -- positions and would try to prevent this
19 plan from being adopted.
20 I must admit that I was unpleasantly surprised by these
21 preparations, and I took certain other measures that I could inform you
22 about if necessary.
23 MR. HANNIS:
24 Q. Thank you. I think that's described in your statement.
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have no other questions for this
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it's timing, Mr. Hannis, which is --
3 it's among the best.
4 Mr. Davidovic, we will adjourn for the day, and we'll resume
5 after the weekend.
6 Madam Registrar, I think we start at 9.00 in the morning next
8 We'd like to see you back not necessarily in this courtroom, I
10 Madam Registrar, would it be Courtroom III or Courtroom II?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask you something?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you may do so.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you tell me when I will have
14 completed my testimony? I was informed that today should have been the
15 last day of my testimony. Then it -- now it's been extended until Monday.
16 Will my testimony continue on Tuesday too? I would like to have a rough
17 idea of when my testimony might be completed.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give you an answer, Ms. Loukas, I'm turning
19 to you but at the same time I'm aware that you have to finish your
20 preparations for the -- for this witness over the weekend. Could you give
21 us any idea?
22 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I -- I would have thought -- at this
23 stage, I can indicate that I would be most of Monday -- most, if not all,
24 of Monday.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Davidovic, I do understand that you're
1 surprised, although it does not surprise me completely that we did not
2 finish this week. We'll try to finish Monday. That would mean that by
3 Monday 2.00 your testimony would be concluded. But I cannot exclude that
4 it takes still some time Tuesday morning. Is that something that causes
5 you great problems?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Since I'm already here, well,
7 then, I have to stay. There's no other way.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, thank you at least for your cooperative
9 attitude in this respect.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I again would like to instruct you that you should
12 not speak with anyone - no one - about your testimony already given or
13 still to be given.
14 We'll adjourn until next Monday, 9.00, Courtroom III.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.18 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Monday, the 13th day of
17 June, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.