1 Monday, 27 June 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please be so kind to
6 call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case IT-
8 00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
10 Ms. Loukas, I think it is scheduled for today that you continue
11 the cross-examination of Mr. Davidovic.
12 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour. And just prior
13 to the witness being brought in, if I might just briefly mention a matter.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please do so.
15 MS. LOUKAS: I'd just like to formally and publicly thank Your
16 Honours and Mr. Krajisnik and the Prosecution and the Defence team for
17 making it possible on a tight court schedule for me to be able to go to my
18 grandmother's funeral. I can indicate that, of course, as Your Honours are
19 aware, my grandmother died while I was in court, and her funeral was to be
20 the very next day in a village in Greece, and, of course, my mother and
21 three of her sisters being in Australia could not make it in time. So I
22 really appreciate the fact that this was made possible, and I do want to
23 formally and publicly thank Your Honours, Mr. Krajisnik, and the
24 Prosecution and, of course, the -- my Defence team for making that
25 possible. It meant a lot to my mother that I was at her mother's funeral
1 when she could not be there all the way from Australia.
2 And also, I'd indicate, Your Honour, I'm also very grateful and
3 should mention to Ms. Verbeek. It was very difficult at the last minute to
4 organise flights, of course, but through a procession of a flight that
5 landed in Athens at 2.30 a.m. in the morning and another flight left that
6 left at 5.30 a.m. in the morning, and then a ferry and then a taxi, I
7 managed to get to the village at ten to 10, and my grandmother's funeral
8 started at 10.00. So I'd like to also formally and publicly thank Ms.
9 Verbeek for making that possible.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Ms. Loukas. I can only say
11 one thing, that the Chamber, and I take it that the same would have been
12 true for Ms. Verbeek, didn't hesitate one moment to assist you in this
13 matter, which, of course, is very emotional for you and very important. So,
14 I'll not say anything more about it.
15 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then could Mr. Davidovic be escorted into the
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Davidovic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by
22 the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony, a
23 declaration which said that you would speak the truth, the whole truth, and
24 nothing than the truth. I'd like to remind you of that. And Ms. Loukas
25 will continue her cross-examination. Please be seated.
1 WITNESS: MILORAD DAVIDOVIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.
4 MS. LOUKAS: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 Cross-examined by Ms. Loukas: [Continued]
6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Davidovic.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, I just want to take you to a particular
9 aspect of your statement. There's no need for the statement to be before
10 you, but you indicated that at paragraph 10 of your statement, for the
11 benefit of the Court, that Mr. Predrag Jesuric of the SDS in Bijeljina,
12 now, of course, what you mean there is the Serbian Democratic Party;
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, you're telling the Court that Mr. Jesuric was
16 a member of the Serbian democratic party; correct?
17 A. I don't know whether he was a member. He was the man who
18 established the party. He was one of its prominent men, and he later
19 claims that he was never a member. I heard that later on in comments. He
20 said he never actually joined the party although he founded it. Whether he
21 had a membership booklet or not, I don't know.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, in your statement that you've acknowledged in
23 court is true and correct, you indicated that -- and I just quote for you
24 what you actually have in your statement: "Both prior to and after the
25 1990 elections, Dr. Novakovic and Predrag Jesuric of the SDS in Bijeljina
1 repeatedly sought me out and requested that I join their party."
2 Now, that's what you've said in your statement; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So in your statement you're clearly saying that Mr. Jesuric was a
5 member of the SDS; are you not?
6 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, that's not what he said. In paragraph
7 11 he says -- of his statement he says he did not know whether he was a
8 member or not.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.
10 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour, but I'm taking him through
11 another portion.
12 JUDGE ORIE: In order to avoid whatever conclusion, perhaps you
13 quote literally to the extent possible.
14 MR. HANNIS: If perhaps we could allow the witness to have the
15 statement in front of him.
16 MS. LOUKAS: I'm happy for that to occur.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to clarify
19 matters? Mr. --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's follow the suggestion of the parties and, of
21 course, if there's any need to further clarify, then you may do so.
22 Ms. Loukas, you guide the witness to the relevant portion.
23 MS. LOUKAS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Now, in paragraph 10, you indicate there that Predrag Jesuric of
25 the SDS -- you see where I'm talking about there?
1 A. I've read that, yes.
2 Q. And, of course, you indicate in paragraph 11 that you do not know
3 if he was a member of the SDS. But then you also indicate that he was the
4 main ideologue in the Bijeljina SDS; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So the situation is that you don't really have much to contribute
7 on that topic; is that correct?
8 MR. HANNIS: Objection. That's argumentative, Your Honour.
9 MS. LOUKAS: I'm happy to withdraw it and move on to another
10 topic, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
12 MS. LOUKAS:
13 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, you'll recall the last time that we were in
14 court, I -- we were dealing with some allegations that I was putting to you
15 that you, in fact, profited by exploiting Bosniak Muslims during the war.
16 You recall that?
17 A. Yes. That's what you claimed, and I told you that you should
18 substantiate that, and you mentioned Mr. Mitrovic, I believe.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, in fact, I think when I was putting those
20 allegations to you, you indicated that -- and this is at page 41 of the
21 transcript for the benefit of the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution, "It is
22 true that whenever I was in a position to do so, I helped anyone who asked
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And that you wanted to save people. That was basically the tenor
1 of the evidence you gave; correct?
2 A. Yes, correct.
3 Q. And that you were not one of those people who exploited Bosniak
4 Muslims; correct?
5 A. I was not. I never allowed myself to do anything like that,
6 anything which would bring me into a situation of reaping benefit; quite
7 the contrary. I had a lot of unpleasantness, and it was at my expense very
9 Q. You were not one of the people who stole or looted from Bosniak
10 Muslims. That's basically what you're saying, isn't it?
11 A. Let me repeat once again. You are trying to insult me in a very
12 bad way. You called me a criminal last time; now you're saying I looted.
13 I don't think that that kind of cross-examination is proper. It is highly
14 unpleasant, and I had a lot of unpleasantness when I went back because of
15 the way you put your questions. Your claims are completely unfounded, and
16 they're demeaning to me as a human being.
17 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, you seized all the furnishings and equipment
18 from the dental office of Dr. Edina Alabaci Hujdurovic in Bijeljina, didn't
20 A. That's nonsense; nothing to do with that. How are you able to
21 say that? I hear that for the first time. What you're saying is complete
23 Q. Well, in fact, Mr. Davidovic, after seeing you on television in
24 Bosnia giving your evidence two weeks ago, Dr. Hujdurvic, Dr. Edina Alabaci
25 Hujdurovic, spoke out on local TV about you doing just that.
1 A. That's impossible. That's pure fabrication and nonsense.
2 Absolute fabrication, invention, and nonsense.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just ask before you continue.
4 MS. LOUKAS: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: When you said it's nonsense, would you say it's
6 nonsense that this person said so on television, or is it nonsense that you
7 say, I was involved in that? That's not entirely clear to me.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was nonsense that I had any
9 part in that, and that the person had said that is impossible.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that still does not clarify completely.
11 You can say someone could not say such a thing because I was not involved.
12 You can also say it's impossible that someone said that, not because I was
13 not involved but it's impossible anyhow that someone would have said it on
14 television because there was not such a television programme or whatever.
15 My question is: Do you say this person couldn't have said it
16 because "I was not involved", or do you say this was never shown on
17 television that a person said something like that?
18 A. That person could never say anything like that nor did she say
19 so, what the lady says, that I took the dental equipment. That's nonsense,
20 and I say with full responsibility that that person would never have said
21 such a thing and never did say such a thing. That's all fabrication, and
22 I'm saying that with full responsibility.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Loukas.
24 MS. LOUKAS:
25 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, your men actually seized a number of gold
1 bars from the Yellow Wasps during the operation leading to their
2 disbandment. Do you know where that gold is?
3 A. Yes. When we captured the Yellow Wasps, there was a quantity of,
4 I think, some two kilogrammes of gold in that part of the operation where
5 the gold was confiscated, and the individuals who confiscated the gold were
6 led by Dragan Andan, the present chief of the police of Republika Srpska,
7 and it was handed over to the SUP in Bijeljina, the gold. And there is a
8 record saying the gold was in the SUP, and there is a commission report on
9 the confiscation of the gold. They weren't gold bars; it was melted-down
10 gold that was found on the individual who was arrested during that
11 operation; in Zvornik, that was. And there is full and complete
12 documentation about the items confiscated, and the commission established
13 that that was kept in the SUP. After I left, several months later, I think
14 that Mr. Macar was head of the commission in the republican MUP, and I have
15 a copy of the minutes, the report and record of that whole event.
16 Q. And you tell the Court that all the gold was handed over, do you?
17 A. Yes. Absolutely correct. I say that with full responsibility.
18 The gold confiscated in the operation in Zvornik was handed over to the
19 SUP. I wasn't in physical contact with it or the people who -- from whom
20 the gold was confiscated. But as I was in charge of the operation, I was
21 informed in detail how the proceedings took place.
22 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you actually seized the home
23 of Goran Joldic, did you not?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Property --
1 A. How do you mean seize a home? How would I do that, seize a
3 Q. Well, Mr. Davidovic, that property was placed into the name of
4 your son, Jovica. Does that ring a bell?
5 A. Well, I know what that's about. Milorad Davidovic, nothing to do
6 with that. I can give you the details of it all, but I have nothing to do
7 with that. During the period of time when that took place, I wasn't in
8 Bijeljina at all.
9 Q. Now, Mr. Davidovic, there are currently three criminal complaints
10 against you in Bijeljina for serious criminal acts, including business
11 fraud, are there not?
12 A. This is the first time I'm hearing of any such thing from you.
13 That's the first time I've heard anything about it, that criminal
14 proceedings are being taken against me. I've never had anything like that
15 happen to me before, and now you quote three. I never received any papers
16 of that kind at all.
17 Q. Okay. Now, let's leave that aside now, shall we, Mr. Davidovic.
18 You were involved during the war along with your troops in
19 rounding up vehicles in Zvornik and Brcko, which would then be brought to
20 Bijeljina and provided with phoney registration papers. Does that ring a
22 A. It is true that when I was in Zvornik and Brcko a number of
23 vehicles were confiscated, but there is documentation on all the vehicles
24 that were confiscated, a receipt of what was taken and where it was stored.
25 When I left Bijeljina, as far as I remember, there were about 300 vehicles
1 in all. I know that in Brcko we drove a large number of vehicles, and we
2 put them on the facilities and compound of where Radio Yugoslavia was
3 located. And I think I said this in my statement, that the heads, the
4 chiefs who were in the MUP of Bijeljina either sold the vehicles or gave
5 them to their friends as gifts. There are reports on all that,
6 documentation on it all. But in addition to those vehicles, there was a
7 full sports hall in the SUP of Bijeljina of items that had been
8 confiscated, the results of looting in Brcko and Zvornik. And when a
9 control was carried out and when the vehicles were stopped, the persons who
10 had confiscated the goods or approach rated the goods had been arrested and
11 the goods were taken. And it was these leaders of this SDS who had come to
12 power who were involved.
13 Q. So you deny that you profited from this activity, I take it, Mr.
15 A. I, once again, would like to emphasise. Give me the name of any
16 vehicle or tell me of any vehicle, just one single vehicle, that I took to
17 back this up. This is a campaign against me from the moment that I refused
18 to cooperate with the SDS in power, and that is the result of the data
19 gathering to compromise me, and I say with full responsibility that what
20 you're claiming now is a complete lie.
21 Q. Mr. Davidovic, you are telling lies about Mr. Krajisnik to cover
22 up your own misconduct; that's what I'm putting to you. And I take it you
23 would disagree with me, wouldn't you?
24 A. First of all, I do not wish to comment on those claims made by
25 you. They are your own claims. I am saying what I know about Mr.
1 Krajisnik from my own contacts with him, what I personally saw and what I
2 took part in, and I had contact with Mr. Krajisnik just two or three times,
3 not more. And I told you what I saw. I make no observations to justify
4 myself; I don't see why I should need to justify myself to anybody or to
5 blame anybody to justify myself. So linking up things like that and
6 drawing parallels where I'm concerned on your part is absolutely improper.
7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I didn't hear your last words. They do not
9 appear on the transcript, Ms. Loukas. I thought that I heard you saying
10 that you had no further questions.
11 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour. No further
12 questions of this witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have a small question to you. You have made
14 a lot of assertions, and you have confronted the witness with it. You have
15 not subsequently substantiated by any documents or whatever, the assertions
16 you've made. Is this still something the Chamber could expect to receive?
17 I mean, we are talking about three criminal complaints. One could imagine
18 there is at least some paperwork about that which -- well, would support
19 the assertion you made or -- can we expect something of the kind now or at
20 some later stage?
21 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, that material plus the result of
22 further investigations will, of course, all be dealt with in the Defence
24 JUDGE ORIE: If it comes to that.
25 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.
2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, in light of the serious nature of
3 those allegations if there is any material now we would like to have that
4 as soon as possible.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, when I said "if it comes to that", of
6 course, if a 98 bis motion will be filed at the end of the prosecution
7 case, of course, the Chamber would like to have available whatever
8 information there is which would either support for challenge the
9 credibility and reliability of witnesses.
10 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, if there would be any such material,
12 you said it would be presented during the Defence case. The Chamber might
13 be interested to see it already at an earlier stage.
14 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, certainly, Your Honour. And I can indicate
15 the -- for example, the information about the -- the woman Ms. Edina
16 Alabaci Hujdurovic. That came to light, in fact, over the weekend, and
17 there wasn't enough time to get film here, which, of course, I would have
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MS. LOUKAS: But so -- but nevertheless, the information that we
21 have received, we understand to be credible, and whatever further paperwork
22 is provided we will provide that to the Trial Chamber in due course as soon
23 as it becomes available.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Is there also material which stems from a time when
25 the witness had not yet testified because it is imaginable - I'm saying it
1 in these neutral words - that a public testimony triggers whatever support
2 or anti-support --
3 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any material that stems from the times
5 before the witness has testified?
6 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour, there is material. We can
7 gather together that material, Your Honour, and present what we have in
8 documentary form. We can also, Your Honour -- Your Honour understands that
9 this is a matter of continuing investigation, and the information we've
10 received thus far we obviously had an obligation to put to the witness as
11 it was from reliable sources and, Your Honour, of course, the cross-
12 examination couldn't wait any further for further investigations. But as
13 the material -- as the confirmatory material arrives, Your Honour, there is
14 no question that we can place that before the Trial Chamber.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would there be a possibility -- I can
16 imagine Mr. Hannis is also dying to see this material, at least get some
17 impression about it so he can --
18 MS. LOUKAS: Respond appropriately.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which could include not responding at all.
20 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: So perhaps the wiser thing to do, if you have not
22 completed that material, first to speak with Mr. Hannis and the Chamber,
23 and then wait and see. It's clear to you that, of course, the Chamber
24 would like to see that material --
25 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- to the extent that it exists, and we'll see what
2 would then be further needed because if someone says something on
3 television that can be true or cannot be true, and sometimes you need
4 further to find out whether press reports. But we'll hear about press
5 reports soon, whether they would need further exploration, need further
6 investigation, and --
7 MS. LOUKAS: Indeed, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- of course, the Chamber is trying to be as precise
9 as possible in these matters.
10 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, before I go on with some redirect, I
11 would again urge that I have whatever materials are available now. Ms.
12 Loukas had sufficient material to ask those questions. In fairness to this
13 witness and future witnesses who are watching this kind of display, if
14 you're going to come into court and be ambushed and surprised with
15 allegations of such a serious nature, it's important to know whether there
16 is a foundation for that. Future witnesses may call us up and say, I don't
17 want to come because I'm going to be smeared.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand your concern.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber suggests to the parties that we would
21 have an early break in order to allow Ms. Loukas to further inform Mr.
22 Hannis about the sources which would support her allegations against this
23 witness so that Mr. Hannis also could further inquire to what extent
24 material could be received soon, whether it's written material, when it's
25 expected to come, so as to be better able to choose what his position in
1 this respect will be.
2 Mr. Hannis, is that a suggestion the parties would --
3 MR. HANNIS: I welcome that, Your Honour.
4 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. Is Your Honour suggesting we
5 take a break now?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, unless Mr. Hannis would prefer first to put
7 other questions in redirect to the witness.
8 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour. It would be preferable to me to
9 break now.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Of course I have to look at the clock, because we
11 have started only -- yes. I see both you, Mr. Stewart, and I saw the hand
12 of Mr. Krajisnik.
13 MR. STEWART: I was only drawing attention to Mr. Krajisnik,
14 Your Honour. That was my only function this afternoon.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. STEWART: So far, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Krajisnik, is there anything you'd like
18 to add to this procedural suggestion?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to ask that before
20 the meeting between Ms. Loukas and the prosecutor, I have a brief meeting
21 with Ms. Loukas for me to provide her with some documents that she can show
22 Mr. Hannis. And afterwards, I should like to be allowed to ask the witness
23 a question, if possible. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We did not give you yet an opportunity to do
25 that. We'll have an early break.
1 Ms. Loukas, this gives you the opportunity to consult with Mr.
2 Krajisnik briefly; you're expected to use part of the break, also, to
3 inform Mr. Hannis in more detail after you've spoken to Mr. Krajisnik. And
4 we'll resume at half past three.
5 --- Recess taken at 2.58 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 3.37 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, before I ask the witness to be brought
8 into the courtroom again, is there anything you'd like to raise as a result
9 of the conversation you had over the break?
10 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. I'm in a bit of a dilemma. I
11 was handed these documents I have in hand before me. There are seven or
12 eight documents; some have multiple pages. They're all in BCS; I had a
13 language assistant come down. I received these five minutes ago, or six
14 minutes ago, Your Honour; I've had a quick look. From what I was able to
15 gather speaking with the language assistant, it appears to me that some of
16 these don't quite fit in with the way the questions were asked, but I can't
17 tell more without having the opportunity to spend more time with the
18 language assistant. I don't want to hold up proceedings.
19 I have spoken with Mr. Tieger, who indicated he could start with
20 the next witness. I know the Court may be reluctant to stop and start with
21 the next witness, and I really would like to finish with Mr. Davidovic
22 today so he can return home and be done with the proceeding.
23 JUDGE ORIE: If you say -- I don't know how many questions you
24 have. Of course, I would not know how much time Mr. Krajisnik would need,
25 but if we could do that at the last part of today's hearing, then at least
1 you'd have some additional time to prepare and go through the documents
2 with a language assistant.
3 MR. HANNIS: That would be helpful to me, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas would there be any --
5 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I don't have a problem with that. I
6 mean, I had a similar problem when I received these documents at the last
7 minute, so I understand it completely.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Krajisnik, how much time you need to put
9 additional questions to the witness?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is a difficult question. I
11 hope that I would be able to finish soon, in 15 or 20 minutes at the most.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, of course, the documents are still not
13 entirely clear to you, but would it be a suggestion that we start with
14 giving Mr. Krajisnik an opportunity to put further questions to the witness
15 so that no new surprises would come up? That would then switch to the next
16 witness, and at the end of today's session you could put some questions in
17 redirect. And, of course, if there would be any time needed for further
18 questions from the Bench, we'll see at that moment. Would that be --
19 MR. HANNIS: That would be agreeable with me, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Tieger, this is to inform you since
23 you've just entered the courtroom, we will now first give an opportunity to
24 Mr. Krajisnik to put additional questions to the witness. We'll then
25 switch to the next witness. Mr. Hannis will be in a position to have at
1 least one hour, a bit more, to look further at the documents he received
2 and to see whether -- and what questions he would like to put to the
3 witness in redirect.
4 So that would mean for the next witness that he still has to
5 wait for approximately 15 to 30 minutes and that Mr. Davidovic would have
6 to return at the end of today's session.
7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, the only thing I'd note is because of
8 the configuration of the courtroom and the limited space, I'll need a few
9 minutes to set things up in between.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then Mr. or Madam Usher, would you then
11 escort Mr. Davidovic into the courtroom.
12 Since we are waiting anyhow, perhaps I could already address
13 some few procedural issues. Defence first, I think, the Rule 68 material,
14 which for Witness 280 has been identified by the Defence. The OTP has
15 provided translation, relevant material to be tendered by the Defence as
16 was agreed on the 22nd of June to be tendered at the 27th of June. So the
17 Chamber expects the Defence to tender that material today.
18 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, certainly, Your Honour, in relation to 280.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In relation to 280. I have a few other
21 points, but we'll deal with that at later stage.
22 Mr. Davidovic, as you may have noticed before the break, there
23 was some material to be exchanged between the parties. That has taken
24 place. Meanwhile, the Office of the Prosecution needs a bit more time to
25 look at these documents. We decided that we'll start now by giving Mr.
1 Krajisnik an opportunity to put additional questions to you. He also might
2 confront you with documents; I do not know. Then we'll have a bit of a
3 longer break, and then at the end of today's session we'd like to call you
4 back because then the Office of the Prosecution will have the opportunity
5 to review the materials and might have additional questions, just as the
6 Bench might have.
7 Mr. Krajisnik.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Krajisnik:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, first of all, I extend my greetings
11 to you.
12 A. Good afternoon.
13 Q. I will limit myself to questions that are only related to some
14 documents that will serve to clarify certain issues. If you remember, in
15 your statement you said that from Mr. Djurkovic you saw a document that
16 originated from my office and bore my signature, and that at that point Mr.
17 Djurkovic took the document for himself, and you wanted to have the
18 document. Do you remember that?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. I have three documents here which clarify certain issues.
21 Since I have only one copy of each, I would kindly ask the usher
22 to place the documents on the ELMO, and if the witness himself can confirm
23 that -- which documents these are. The most important ones are the first
24 and the last.
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I have to raise -- I'm sorry. I have
1 to raise an objection again to this procedure. We don't receive these
2 documents. They're not in English. They're sprung on us and the witness
3 at the last moment like this. It's -- it's not the best way to proceed.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, the rules apply for you, as well.
5 What have you done in order to seek these documents to be translated so you
6 could provide them to the Prosecution and to the Bench?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These documents were obtained by
8 my Defence team. I only received one copy, and I did not think that I was
9 going to ask questions about them, but I do believe it useful for the
10 witness to take a look at these documents. They relate to one claim that
11 he made in his statement.
12 Perhaps the usher could first place the document before the
13 witness for the witness to see the document first.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Krajisnik. Mr. Krajisnik, no. I'd like to
15 see the document.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, by all means.
17 Your Honour, these are different documents that all relate to one and the
18 same issue.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, when did you learn about the
20 existence of these documents?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since Mr. Davidovic left. It was
22 in the meantime that this document was obtained by our investigators; The
23 document was provided by Mr. Djurkovic.
24 JUDGE ORIE: From the fax I see that it was sent on June the
25 12th, which was approximately two weeks ago.
1 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. Mr. Davidovic last testified on
2 June the 13th.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I see that it is -- that's the only
4 thing I can see. That must have been a large number of documents. Was it
5 sent to you? Was it sent to Defence counsel? When was it received?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Our correspondence goes through
7 the Defence team.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When did the Defence team receive these
10 MS. LOUKAS: I'm informed by my case manager that if it says the
11 12th, then it would have been the 12th. That's as far as --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I see the -- well, of course, it says the fax
13 number, and then a number appears, and then it gives us the date June the
15 Ms. Loukas, are you in a position to inform us on when Mr.
16 Krajisnik could have known about these documents?
17 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I will have to get instructions
18 from our case manager about that, and I'll just confirm that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
20 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I'm instructed by my case manager that
21 it would have been received, he assumes, on the 13th.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MS. LOUKAS: If it was faxed on the 12th, that would be the
24 Sunday, and I think the 13th was the Monday, and that's when Mr. Davidovic
25 was in court.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MS. LOUKAS: And as, of course, Your Honours are aware, I did
3 indicate then that we were still receiving --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, but -- so I can establish that these
5 documents, relevant for further questions put to the witness, where he left
6 some two weeks ago are already there for some two weeks, and no attempt
7 whatsoever, at least not to the knowledge of the Chamber, has been made to
8 have these documents translated such as to properly introduce them as
10 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, what I might do -- if I might
11 have the documents in question. I can show them to my case manager and we
12 can have specific information on the specific documents that are being
13 dealt with at this point.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it doesn't change the matter that if you
15 want to introduce them as exhibits, that the rule is they should be
16 translated, and especially since most of the documents seem to date from
17 far beyond the indictment period, which, of course, does not make them per
18 se irrelevant, but I can't see that at this moment.
19 Let me just consult with my colleagues.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, may I take it that you consider that
22 it's not necessary to confront the witness with these documents that are
23 available to the Defence, or --
24 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. If I can just check what the
25 particular documents are.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. I'll give the documents to you, Ms.
2 Loukas, at this moment so that you can look at what they are.
3 Then, Mr. Krajisnik, you must have been aware meanwhile, and
4 especially in view of this witness who was here to testify two weeks ago,
5 that you can't just -- two weeks later where you had all opportunity even
6 to ask the assistance of the Chamber to have them translated; they are
7 relatively short documents. So, therefore, we'll first give them to Ms.
8 Loukas; then we'll return them to you. You may put questions to the
9 witness, and you may, of course, consult these documents yourself to
10 specify your questions, and if at a later stage it would become perfectly
11 clear that these documents, although mainly from 1993, 1994, 1995, would
12 play such an important role, then we can reconsider if they would be
13 tendered again, then, as documents with the translation attached to it.
14 Madam Usher, would you please give them to Ms. Loukas.
15 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, of course, we're getting now into the realm of
16 an advocate's forensic decisions, but, Your Honour, the dates in question
17 on the documents made them documents that I made a forensic decision not to
18 cross-examine on, being outside the indictment period.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please return the documents to Mr.
21 Mr. Krajisnik, you may, of course, refer to events if they are
22 to the knowledge of the witness described in these documents, so please
24 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]:
25 Q. I will try to put questions to you based on this document that
1 you will not be able to see.
2 Do you know the document that you have seen, when it dates from?
3 A. I saw it in 1993.
4 Q. Do you know who signed the document?
5 A. You did.
6 Q. Thank you very much. Do you claim that what Mr. Djurkovic had
7 said, that he did not receive the document from me but from somebody else,
8 that it was true?
9 A. Well, Djurkovic is such a character that I am simply not able to
10 say anything about him or about what he claims.
11 Q. Very well. I forgot to say that we should make a pause between
12 question and answer to allow the interpreters to do their job.
13 A. I apologise.
14 Q. You said that you provided security to the government at
15 Bistrica. Can you tell us if this is something that you stated in your
16 statement? What was the time period that you spent at Bistrica?
17 A. It might have been May or June. As soon as I arrived at Vrace, I
18 went down there.
19 Q. Very well. Just talk the time period.
20 A. Well, that was about the time period, the one that I mentioned.
21 Q. This is a document from the OTP, the minutes from the 27th
22 session of the government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
23 held on the 13 June 1992, number 01245366 - it's in Serbian - up until
24 01245370. And I kindly ask the following: This is a government document,
25 and page 4 in Serbian.
1 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Let's first see whether we can
2 retrieve the document either in computerised form.
3 MR. HANNIS: We're getting the little hourglass up on the
4 screen, indicating that the computer is working, Your Honour, but --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say the computer is working.
6 MR. HANNIS: Trying to work.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any specific portion? Usually these
8 documents, minutes of government meetings, are somewhere in evidence.
9 MR. HANNIS: Many of them are. I was just consulting with Mr.
10 Tieger if he recalled if this one was introduced. He knows a couple of the
11 June 1992 government sessions are in evidence, but we're not sure about
12 this particular day.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Would you mind if a specific portion would be put
14 in evidence and --
15 MR. HANNIS: No objection to that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So, then, let's put it on the ELMO.
17 MR. HANNIS: For the record, Your Honour, this appears to be in
18 evidence already in Exhibit P65: Mr. Treanor's binder 12, tab number 162.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It comes not as a total surprise that it's in
20 the Treanor material.
21 Witness, if you look at the original, then we'll have a look at
22 the translation.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Krajisnik.
24 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Page 4 in Serbian, please. I'd kindly ask the witness to read
1 out the portion that was highlighted so that it could be read out in
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please draw our attention. It sometimes
4 gives numbers, re: 6, re: 7. Is it a numbered paragraph?
5 Well, let's -- let the witness start read the highlighted
6 portion, and we'll see whether we can find it.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The issue of housing the
8 government in Bistrica has been raised." Does this suffice?
9 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
10 Q. If on the 13th of June the government discussed its relocation to
11 Bistrica, would you then claim that you had provided security to some other
12 institution or some other team of people?
13 A. No. It was not possible that some other organ was involved
14 because it says here the issue of housing the government in Bistrica has
15 been raised. I know for a fact at the time I was there the government was
16 put up there; I spent ten days there.
17 Q. Could the witness please be shown another minutes of the
18 government dated 24 March 1992, 012 of the --
19 THE INTERPRETER: The accused read out the number too quickly.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Up until 01245304.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Do have a copy of the document, Mr. Krajisnik?
22 Madam Usher, could you --
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do in Serbian.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's -- if you haven't got anything else, we
25 have to do with it for the time being, and let's see whether we can find
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the --
2 MR. HANNIS: It appears that this one was not previously
3 induced, Your Honour. It is in --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll first -- is that also a --
5 MR. HANNIS: It is in a footnote to Mr. Treanor's report, but it
6 was not part of the presentation.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you would look at a specific portion, have it
8 translated by the interpreters, Mr. Hannis, would you have insurmountable
10 MR. HANNIS: No, I don't object to that, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Would now, please, the B/C/S version be put on the
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All these are footnotes of Mr.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it, Mr. Krajisnik, that you would
16 invite the witness to slowly read the highlighted portion; is that correct?
17 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 Q. I would kindly ask you to read the highlighted part out where it
19 says, "Decision: Rjesenje."
20 A. Under 1: "A decision should be issued to the effect that the
21 ministry of finance should temporarily be housed on the premises of the
22 culture centre of Famos Korin [phoen] ; the ministry of Defence on the
23 premises of the Municipal Assembly; ministry for agriculture, forestry, and
24 water resources management on the premises of the forestry company Jahorina
25 Pale; Ministry of Justice on the institute for the analysis of
1 formaldehyde, and the ministry of health care on the premises of the Korin
2 hospital; the ministry of traffic and communications on the premises of the
4 Q. Can you see now that the government was temporarily housed at
5 Pale and not at Bistrica, that only ten days later the issue was discussed
6 for -- of its relocation to Jahorina?
7 A. Here the decision was taken that the government should
8 temporarily be relocated to Jahorina. I do not wish to comment on this
9 document because I'm not familiar with the specifics. I was -- I was at
10 Bistrica providing security there for the government for ten days, and
11 there were people there. After all, there was Mico Stanisic there, who
12 issued assignments to us.
13 Q. If I ask you the following, that you provided security for the
14 government members who slept at Bistrica, would that be correct?
15 A. They were there all day long, from morning to evening and spent
16 the night there. I don't know what they were doing there, but they were
17 there all the time. There were even members of their family there, and
18 there were businessmen who showed up there asking for some papers, and I
19 witnessed it all.
20 Q. Thank you very much, and I would like to tender these documents
21 into evidence, please.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could I have a look at the ...
23 I announced the document as dating the 24th of March, 1992.
24 Madam Usher, could you please put it on the ELMO. Cover page,
1 It seems to be a 24th of April, 1992, document which is more
2 consistent with your observations about three weeks later, which I had some
3 difficulties to reconcile late March and 13th of June with three weeks.
4 Would there be any objection to have this document admitted into
6 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour. I believe it's already in. It's
7 part of Mr. Treanor's --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it's a footnote, and it's there.
9 MR. HANNIS: It is a footnote to his report.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, then it is in evidence already. Yes.
11 MR. HANNIS: And the earlier one had that exhibit number I
12 announced on the record.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's, then, clear. Mr. Krajisnik, there
14 would be no need to have it admitted into evidence again since I do
15 understand it's already under the Treanor material.
16 I, of course, could not check the translation. You two times
17 used the word "relocation," whereas the official translation of the
18 document case "housing," which is not exactly the same. Raising an issue
19 of housing does not necessarily include relocation.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Krajisnik.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I may have misspoke, but I believe
22 that I did say 24 April. There must have been an error in interpretation,
23 but I'm glad that we've clarified the issue.
24 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
25 Q. You said that the leadership of Republika Srpska supported the
1 paramilitary formation. I would now like to go back to the document
2 presented to you by the OTP which is P777, 00845558, which is a report to
3 the president of the republic, Mr. Karadzic, by Mr. Adnan.
4 Could the witness read the last page and comment on it. If
5 necessary, or maybe it would be a good solution to place it on the ELMO.
6 JUDGE ORIE: If you would have an English translation, and
7 perhaps the English translation should be put on the ELMO, and the original
8 B/C/S document should be given to the witness.
9 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Witness, could you read out the footnote written by Mr. Karadzic
11 in handwriting.
12 A. It says, "Radovan Karadzic," although I saw the handwriting the
13 first day a few days ago with the Prosecution, it says here, "Carry on or
14 keep enforcing order and the rule of law, law and order," and I can't read
15 what it says in brackets. "Keep enforcing law and order." That piece of
16 information came from us. We wrote it; we compiled it and sent it on to
17 the government. And as far as I know there was a discussion held at the
18 Assembly with respect to that.
19 Q. Witness, you know that there was no debate in the Assembly
20 because last time Ms. Loukas showed you a document from the 10th session,
21 Assembly session, but the material, the document went to the government and
22 someone from Mr. Karadzic came, and this was a note by the person who
23 showed him the document, the material in the first place?
24 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. If he's talking about the
25 session I think he is, I believe it was the 20th session, but could we have
1 some clarification about which session and what date he's referring to?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I considered that issue to have
4 been completed last time. The witness said that at a session in September
5 or October, which was the only session, that Kerovic discussed something
6 about the introduction of law and order, and that he discussed Mr.
7 Davidovic. And then Ms. Loukas brought the stenographic notes from the
8 session, and we were able to see that Mr. Davidovic wasn't mentioned at
9 all. If we need bring in the minutes from that session, we will do so
10 because that's the only one that the Prosecution did not have.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.
12 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, it's true. We did not have the full
13 minutes of that session. I believe Defence counsel had the B/C/S version
14 last time. We haven't received it and translated it yet to see what's in
15 there. But as you recall, Your Honour, when we had this discussion it was
16 not -- Mr. Davidovic did not say that it occurred at the session. He said
17 that Mr. Meakicic told him it was discussed at the session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's as such clear.
19 Mr. Krajisnik, you may put a question to the witness. You're
20 not allowed to tell the witness what he knows as you did on approximately
21 one page ago when you said, "Witness, you know that there was," and then --
22 please put a question to the witness.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would the Trial Chamber allow me
24 to send the minutes of that session and to have it translated subsequently
25 if it hasn't been translated because Ms. Loukas's question related to that
1 matter last time, and there was no discussion. All -- everything had been
2 cleared up.
3 Now I hear that it hasn't been cleared up and it is -- we're
4 still discussing whether Meakicic said anything or not and whether Mr.
5 Karganovic said something or not. Now, we can take a break and bring in
6 the minutes from that Assembly session to allow the witness have a look and
7 clear the matter up again once on for all.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you may put a question to the
9 witness at this moment.
10 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I'm sure you'll remember that you said that
12 equipment arrived by helicopter, MUP helicopters to Pale.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I should like to ask the next document, that is to say a
15 conversation between Cedo Kljajic and Pero Mihajlovic to be placed in
16 front of the witness; 03220299, used by the Prosecution in the trial. May
17 that document be provided? 03220229, and the page is 03220231. It is a
18 conversation between the two men about the equipment. So may we have that
19 document provided in English, please.
20 MR. HANNIS: For the record, Your Honour, it appears that was
21 Exhibit 766.
22 JUDGE ORIE: 766.
23 MR. HANNIS: 766.A and .1.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we have the --
25 MR. HANNIS: Or .A.1.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to read part of the text
3 for the witness, and I'm going to ask the witness to comment.
4 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
5 Q. On the second page of the B/C/S, page 2, towards the end, Pero
6 Mihajlovic says the following -- have you found that, Witness? "Momo
7 didn't order that for the Serb MUP but for the other one," and then on the
8 next page Cedo Kljajic says, "Yes, yes, yes." Pero Mihajlovic says, "So
9 that should all be stopped." And Cedo Kljajic says, "Certainly, sure."
10 Pero Mihajlovic says, "All of it. Because they called me, I will stop it
11 all now." Cedo Kljajic says, "Well, if you could bring that to us here, we
12 could make further arrangements, you know."
13 Now, my question is this: Do you know about that procurement of
14 Mr. Mandic's for the BH of MUP, MUP BH?
15 A. Yes, I do know that it was about procuring some passports and
16 documents that are issued in the department in Belgrade, and Pero was in
17 charge of contacts at the mint because that's where the passports were
18 issued and other documents issued by the Ministry of the Interior. It is
19 special documents printed on special forms, et cetera. So that's what Pero
20 is referring to, those documents that Mandic had ordered previously,
21 whether he should go ahead with that or not.
22 Q. Witness, the conversation took place on the 18th of April.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did Bosnia-Herzegovina need Yugoslav passports at the time?
25 A. Yes. They issued Yugoslav passports for the whole of that year
1 and later on in 1992 afterwards, as well.
2 Q. Do you understand it, then, that it was not equipment brought in
3 by helicopter but what all this was about was passports?
4 A. I said that equipment had been ordered from Momo Mandic through
5 the federal SUP because the federal institute for the issuance of money
6 asked for other documents and passports; the institute for legal tender,
7 that is.
8 Q. Could you keep your answers brief, please. Now, you're not
9 linking this conversation up to the equipment that arrived at Pale by
10 helicopter; is that right?
11 A. That is right. I'm not, no.
12 Q. Thank you. You said that I and my escorts had collected money
13 for the citizens and from the customs. For what was this, and what date
14 was that?
15 A. I said I was informed about that when I arrived at the border
16 crossing. I think it was the Christmas holidays or just before the
17 Christmas holidays and New Year holidays, and they told me that you were
18 there with your escort, that you had taken some money, and you said that
19 that was for government purposes or state purposes, and that you signed a
20 receipt and then left. And that's what I said, that I received that
21 information from the customs officer at the border crossing.
22 Q. Can you give us the name of that customs officer?
23 A. I can't remember his name. I tried to remember it. I did my
24 best, but I just can't remember the name because they would come and do
25 their shift and leave. They would change.
1 Q. If I've understood you correctly, it's the border crossing where?
2 A. At Bosansko Raca. Yes. And it was money that was paid by
3 citizens working abroad. They were taxed 200 marks per month.
4 Q. Don't give us a speech. Just tell us where the border crossing
5 was and what year.
6 A. That was in 1993.
7 Q. I see, 1993. Thank you. Now, I put it to you -- if I put it to
8 you that I never took the money, then do you still remain by your claims,
10 A. That's the information I heard. I can't say whether you took the
11 money or didn't take the money. I can't believe you or not believe you.
12 It's open for interpretation. I can only say what I was told.
13 Q. Right. Thank you, but I'd like to ask you to keep your answers
14 short, please, in view of the limited time we have.
15 I have another document here, now, which was sent --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, if there's any need that you think
17 that a witness should not deliver speeches but answer your questions, you
18 may address me so that I can judge on whether there's any need to say such
19 a thing to the witness, and I'll do it if I think it's justified. Please
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Trial Chamber,
22 and thank you for your advice and guidelines on that point. Thank you.
23 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
24 Q. A document was used here, a review of events and the situation
25 assessment of the situation in Brcko; 00741394 was the document's number.
1 The signature is the War Presidency of Brcko municipality. And you
2 commented on the document. Does the Prosecution have the English version
3 of that document?
4 Or let me ask the question: Do you remember the document,
5 Witness, and, if so, have you ever seen the document? Did you ever see it?
6 A. I don't know what you're talking about at all. I can't remember,
7 so I can't really say. I don't know what you're referring to.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, do you have a B/C/S copy of that
9 document so that it could be presented to the witness, or would you have --
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
11 MR. HANNIS: For the record, Your Honour, this was Exhibit
12 number 22, which came in through our first witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. HANNIS: I'm looking to see if I have a copy here.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please continue, Mr. Krajisnik.
17 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Was that document ever in your possession?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So you didn't receive the document from anybody; is that right?
21 A. No, I didn't. No.
22 Q. Do you remember talking about the Assembly when the Vance-Owen
23 Plan was adopted?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you remember what you said, how you were dressed on the
2 A. I was wearing camouflage uniform.
3 Q. Throughout the whole time?
4 A. Yes, the whole time.
5 Q. If I were to show you a CD now, a tape -- or rather, can we have
6 this CD played? It is footage showing Mr. Davidovic in civilian clothing
7 on the tape at the Assembly meeting.
8 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, this is brand new. I don't know what
9 the provenance of this. I don't know what date it is. I don't know where
10 it came from.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik.
12 MR. HANNIS: I don't know how long he's had it.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope it is necessary to
14 ascertain the truth, to see whether the witness is right in what he says or
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, the question was a different one.
17 What's the provenance of that tape?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Our investigators found the whole
19 stenographic notes of the Assembly, and they also found video footage of
20 the beginning of the meeting where you can see Mr. Davidovic, and I brought
21 that first part. But, of course, we can hand in the entire tape.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Is there anyway to --
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 95, it is.
24 JUDGE ORIE: It is 95. Is there anyway to identify the date by
25 viewing this video?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You will be able to see the
2 individuals, Mr. Mitsotakis, Mr. Milosevic, Mr. Bulatovic; you see it all
3 on the tape. It's Jahorina, and it will say on the tape what Assembly
4 session it is.
5 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, as I recall Mr. Davidovic's statement,
6 he talked about attending a deputies' club meeting which was, as I
7 understand it, the day before the Assembly session. And as I understood it
8 that's what he was talking about, not the Assembly session but the
9 deputies' club meeting the night before.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked the witness today whether
12 he was -- or rather, what he was wearing. He said he was in camouflage
13 uniform all the time at Pale, but it's -- a lot of years have passed by
14 since then, of course.
15 JUDGE ORIE: You asked the witness, "Can you remember what you
16 said, how were you addressed on the occasion." The answer was, "I was
17 wearing camouflage uniform." And then the question was, "Throughout the
18 whole time?" "Yes, the whole time." That could easily be understood as to
19 be the whole time at the occasion, since you limited your question to that.
20 Since when do you have that CD in your possession, Mr.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This compact disk was brought in
23 by hand; they couldn't send it. But in the meantime I had other witnesses,
24 so I prepared myself when I found the time. Had I known, I would have
25 really sent it in on time.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Since when do you have it was the question, Mr.
2 Krajisnik, not on how you received it.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since after Mr. Davidovic's
4 departure. That's when I received the compact disk. I don't remember the
5 exact time, but a visitor visiting The Hague was supposed to bring it in.
6 Maybe it was sent in on another date; I can't actually say for sure now.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Did you receive it through Defence counsel, or did
8 you receive it directly from a visitor?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, from Mr. Karganovic.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Karganovic, could you inform the Chamber on
11 when you gave this CD to Mr. Krajisnik, or could you please answer that
12 through Defence counsel.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please inform Ms. Loukas, who deals with
15 this witness, on when you gave the CD Mr. Krajisnik is referring to, to
16 him. If you would please inform Ms. Loukas so she can address the Chamber.
17 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honours, Mr. Karganovic doesn't have a
18 specific recollection, but what he can do is check his e-mails, and then he
19 can discover precisely when.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll do that, then, during the break
21 perhaps, and most -- if Mr. -- first of all, we can't play a CD just
22 unannounced. That seems to cause technical problems. If Mr. Krajisnik
23 would be willing to give the CD temporarily to Mr. Hannis so that he could
24 have a look at it and put it on the pile together with the documents.
25 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, may I raise a point? If we could ask
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the witness to take his headphones off for a minute.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Davidovic, would you please take your
3 headphones off.
4 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, as I gather the point that's trying to
5 be made is Mr. Davidovic said he was wearing camouflage during the event,
6 which I thought him to understand being the deputies' club meeting at
7 midnight the day before the Assembly session, and Mr. Krajisnik wants to
8 play a video showing him the next day at the Assembly session wearing
9 civilian clothes. That's not very helpful to the Tribunal unless you ask
10 him, did you also wear camouflage clothing during the Assembly session
11 meeting the next day? Because, indeed, he could have changed clothes from
12 the night before to the morning after, which was a more formal occasion
13 with the visiting dignitaries.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, Mr. Hannis suggests you to put a
15 question to the witness. Do you follow that suggestion?
16 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Davidovic, on the day of the session itself --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness now has his earphones on again.
19 Mr. Krajisnik, please proceed.
20 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Davidovic, on the day of the session itself, were you in
22 civilian clothing?
23 A. Yes because I had other assignments at the time.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So we don't need to have the CD
1 played. That solves that problem.
2 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you to tell me this: What did the session
3 decide, what matters?
4 A. About whether the Vance-Owen Plan was to be accepted or not.
5 Q. Just brief answers. So it was about the Vance-Owen Plan. Tell
6 us the agenda.
7 A. Well, I don't know. I can't know that.
8 Q. Did we vote for or against the Vance-Owen Plan?
9 A. I can't know that, either.
10 Q. You were there, sir.
11 A. I was -- came and went. I wasn't there the whole time to follow
12 the whole of the Assembly meeting.
13 MR. HANNIS: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I think this is a matter
14 of record. It's not very helpful to have this witness comment on what's in
15 the minutes of that Assembly session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I think that there are reliable ways
17 of establishing what happened during that session.
18 Do you have any further questions, Mr. Krajisnik? You indicated
19 that you hoped you would do within a quarter of an hour. I have some
20 difficulties to understand how you could have formed that opinion, but ...
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope I'll be able to get through
22 it quickly. I apologise, Your Honour, but I just have to ask a few more
24 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Davidovic, you gave -- made many comments about the session
1 itself, so it's not that you didn't know what was going on. So please
2 answer me this: Tell me -- or, rather, what was the voting like? How did
3 the deputies vote?
4 A. I can't know.
5 Q. All right. Fine. Very well. Now, do you know why we rejected
6 the Vance-Owen Plan or whether we rejected it at all?
7 A. I know that the Vance-Owen Plan was not accepted.
8 Q. Right. Fine.
9 A. Well, I know about Milosevic and Cosic's interactions and so on.
10 Q. If I say to you, I put it to you that we confirmed a previous
11 decision and put it to referendum, if I were to tell you that would you
12 have a different opinion or, rather, would you be opposed to that?
13 A. I don't understand the question.
14 Q. If I tell you that there was individual voting and that we stated
15 our views and confirmed a Bijeljina decision taken previously by which the
16 decision needed to go to a referendum, that is to say that the citizens
17 should state their views about the Vance-Owen Plan at a referendum, would
18 you accept that? Do you have different knowledge, or do you accept that?
19 A. Well, I don't know. All I know was that the plan wasn't
20 accepted, and that's how it ended.
21 Q. I put it to you, Mr. Davidovic, that at the time we confirmed our
22 decision, the Bijeljina decision, and handed over the whole issue and
23 matter to a referendum. Now, did your people tell you that, the people you
24 talked to?
25 A. I know that when the Assembly session was over we prevented the
1 journalists from entering the Assembly hall and that President Cosic asked
2 Milosevic, Slobodan, he said, what should I tell the journalists now? I
3 don't know how to react. And he said -- Mr. Cosic said, We'll see what's
4 been done, what's going to be done in the future, and then he left and went
5 back to Belgrade.
6 Q. If I told you that the Vance-Owen Plan was to abolish Republika
7 Srpska, would you change your opinion in condemning the deputies for
8 handing over the whole thing to a referendum?
9 A. I am not well-placed and don't have the capabilities of
10 commenting on matters like that.
11 Q. Now, my last question.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This material, Your Honour, is a
13 document with signatures. It was sent to the International Red Cross. It
14 is a Muslim petition asking to be relocated. I would like to ask the Trial
15 Chamber's advice. Can a document of this kind be tendered into evidence or
16 used in this court at all? May I have the Court's guidance?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. Documents as such are not excluded
18 from being admitted into evidence, but if you want to do it through this
19 witness, then at least this witness should know something about this
20 document; otherwise, we could consider whether there are other ways of
21 introducing it into evidence. But if you want to do it through this
22 witness, the witness should have any knowledge about the document.
23 What makes you believe, Mr. Krajisnik, that this witness would
24 have any knowledge of this document?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness spoke about the fact
1 that the Muslims left the area.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ethnic cleansing.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Ethnic cleansing.
4 Now, this document speaks about the way in which the Muslims left
5 Bijeljina, and it is signed and stamped by the International Red Cross.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's first put it to the witness. Let's
7 just confront him with the document and ask whether he has any knowledge
8 about the document. But perhaps I'd first have a look myself.
9 Mr. Krajisnik, could you tell us where this document is stamped
10 by the International Red Cross? I see that halfway the document there's an
11 empty page, and then there's a card, which is from someone associated with
12 the International Red Cross. But the document itself, I do not see any
13 stamp because that's how you introduced it. Could you please tell me where
14 I find such a stamp, apart from one page just in the middle where a card of
15 a person associated with the Red Cross is found?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The title itself, Your Honour, is
17 a petition sent to the International Red Cross, and this contributes to Mr.
18 Djurkovic's statement, who was in charge of population exchange.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. You may ask the witness. I see that
20 it's addressed, but you said it's stamped, which is something totally
22 Would you please put the -- one of the other problems is that
23 the first page appears, I think, seven or eight times and then only we move
24 to -- could you please, Madam Usher, show the cover page and then this, one
25 of the following pages, to the witness, and I'll first ask the witness
1 whether he has any knowledge of it. No, if you --
2 Witness, my question to you is have you ever seen this document
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't, but I have heard
5 about this document. I heard about it, and I can explain to you its
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if Mr. Krajisnik would like to ask you the
8 origin of this document you've never seen before, then it seems to be a
9 relatively short text, and then we have long pages of names.
10 And, Mr. Krajisnik, if you would like to ask the witness, and
11 you said this was your last question, you may do so.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I forgot. I have
13 another question, which is the last one and a very brief one.
14 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Davidovic, you are aware of the fact that Mr. Djurkovic
16 effected the exchanges of the Muslim population through the Red Cross?
17 A. At the time when the looting and murders became public and some
18 people were compromised, and when the Muslims were taken to the border
19 between Serbia and Hungary, that was when the international community got
20 involved because it saw that everything went out of control and sought to
21 prevent such negative conduct. I can explain to you in detail how these
22 things went along, if you wish.
23 You know, and regardless of the fact that this is a very heavy
24 statement to make but this is true, you know that the SDS conducted,
25 planned a systematic relocation of people.
1 Q. Please, could you specifically answer my question related to that
3 A. When Muslim houses started being broken into, their property
4 seized, and so on, the international community started exerting pressure
5 through the International Red Cross. That was when different methods were
6 used. Muslims who were left without jobs were designated to clean the
7 streets and do the worst menial jobs, and it was done in such a way that
8 Muslim intellectuals were designated to do such jobs.
9 For instance, the deputy chief of police, who was a Muslim,
10 doctors were designated to work on the marketplace, and this was a way of
11 creating an atmosphere that will be conducive to people leaving. If you
12 have an intellectual cleaning, sweeping streets, what can then an ordinary
13 Muslim who does not enjoy any protection expect? And that was when the
14 Muslims themselves asked to be allowed to move out because they had no
15 other alternative. They were afraid of being taken to the Batkovic camp or
16 of being driven out in some worse manner. And that was the origin of this
17 petition. It was a pressure simply exerted in a different manner but
18 conducing the Muslims or, rather, compelling them to leave without any
20 Q. Thank you very much. It was my understanding that Muslims were
21 brought to a very unfavourable and difficult condition, and then --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you may put questions to the
23 witness. In relation to the last document of which the witness said that
24 he hasn't seen it before, he has heard about such a document. It will be
25 returned to you. If you want to tender that, we will hear whether there
1 would be any objection once it has been translated. The answers given by
2 the witness are understandable, as well, without having a specific look at
3 this document, but you still have an opportunity to tender that document at
4 a later stage if you have any wish to do so.
5 The witness testified about a petition he heard of that was sent
6 to the Red Cross.
7 Your last question, you said, Mr. Krajisnik.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
9 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
10 Q. I am sorry for having to ask you this: When you were young, just
11 as your son is, were you ever assigned custodianship, guardianship?
12 MR. HANNIS: Objection, Your Honour. I don't see the relevance
13 of this question.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik -- we'll first ask the witness to
15 take his earphones off.
16 Would you tell us what the relevance is?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the witness --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear what he's saying.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, you can. I have to apologise for this.
20 Let me call it stupidity. That is the clearest way of expressing myself.
21 It would be your last question anyhow.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, the worst thing that could happen is
24 that an irrelevant question would be put to the witness. To have it all
25 sorted out would take us five to ten minutes.
1 MR. HANNIS: My only concern is that given the nature of what it
2 might be and if it turns out to be irrelevant and shouldn't be asked, maybe
3 it should be done in private session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Well, then, if that would be a
5 solution, Mr. Krajisnik, in order to protect the witness on the one-hand
6 side, on the other to allow you to put to the witness what you'd like to, I
7 suggest that we turn to private session. I see you nodding yes.
8 We turn to private session.
9 [Private session]
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber wonders whether it makes any sense to
8 start in between the next witness or whether we would give you, Mr. Hannis
9 -- how much time do you think you need? Thirty-five minutes, would that
10 do? I beg your pardon?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
13 MR. HANNIS: I was going to ask for 30, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's, then, have a beak for 30 minutes, and
15 we start, then, at twenty minutes past five. We'll see if any time remains
16 to start the next witness. It, of course, depends on the time you need,
17 Mr. Hannis, and the time the Chamber would need.
18 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. STEWART: Twenty-five past is 25 minutes. I don't know -- I
21 don't know how long Mr. Hannis is really going to have if he's giving away
22 that five minutes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I offered 35 minutes. He asked for 30 minutes, and
24 then I said we would have a break until twenty-five minutes past five.
25 MR. STEWART: I beg your pardon. I thought Your Honour was
1 intending to give him 30. That was -- I apologise for the intervention.
2 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, now could I just have until 5.30?
3 JUDGE ORIE: You can have until 5.30, and I'll re-read the
4 transcript later on to see how time is calculated in this courtroom.
5 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
6 --- Recess taken at 4.56 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 5.33 p.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.
9 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, could I address something before we
10 have the witness come in.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I just wanted to give you an opportunity to
12 do so, yes.
13 MR. HANNIS: I want to address some of the documents that were
14 given to me in relation to questions that counsel asked on cross-examine.
15 First I want to address one that Mr. Krajisnik used to ask a
16 question in private session.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. HANNIS: In conversation with my language assistant, this
19 appears to be a document from the police station in Lopare, where Mr.
20 Davidovic grew up. It appears to refer to something when he was age 17,
21 and it appears to be a notation in the records of the police department
22 that he was referred or his parents were counselled to exercise stricter
23 supervision over him.
24 I don't know more details than that. I do note that the fax
25 date on this is the 8th of June.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Does it give any reason specifically? Was it
2 because --
3 MR. HANNIS: No. I don't know. I can't read the B/C/S, but in
4 my interpretation it didn't appear to refer to a specific incident. I
5 could be wrong.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. HANNIS: My concern is, Your Honour, we've gone into private
8 session now, and, of course, that was at my request. But first of all, I
9 don't see how this is relevant, but we've gone into private session, and
10 the public may have a perception that ah, there was some deep dark secret
11 about Mr. Davidovic when this was the kind of thing that -- I don't know in
12 your jurisdiction, Your Honour, in mine, a juvenile record not amounting to
13 any kind of conviction would have been destroyed years ago. It has no --
14 it just has no relevance or no bearing.
15 I would like, when we go back into public session, if somehow we
16 can address it if you agree that it has any relevance.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first -- okay. That's one document.
18 MR. HANNIS: And a related comment to that, Your Honour, this
19 was faxed on the 8th of June. If this is something that is shared with us
20 ahead of time we can have discussions with counsel about whether or not
21 this would be appropriate to bring to court and spend court time on.
22 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
23 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour -- oh.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At least, whatever has been said about this
25 first document is now being repeated not in private session, but I don't
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 think it's really a big problem. I would almost say that all boys stand
2 who never have visited a police office. I could not stand up at this
4 MS. LOUKAS: Sorry, Your Honour, just in relation to that last
5 comment from Mr. Hannis and a related comment to that, Your Honour, this
6 was faxed on the 8th June. If this is something that is shared with us
7 ahead of time, we can have discussions with counsel about whether this
8 would be appropriate to bring to court and spend court time on.
9 Your Honour, I didn't cross-examine on it. I did not think it
10 was appropriate to spend court time on it. That's why there was no need.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. There is no need, at this moment, to take
12 distance from it, but I do understand from what Mr. Hannis said that it's
13 mainly addressing Mr. Krajisnik that -- one thing is for sure, Mr.
14 Krajisnik, whenever you want to introduce any documents, let me be quite
15 clear on that, if it is in evidence you should give the number under which
16 it is admitted into evidence. If you have any difficulties in identifying
17 that number, please seek the help needed. That should be possible.
18 Secondly, give a list of all documents prior to putting it to
19 any witness to Madam Registrar so that she can try to find out, to retrieve
20 that document so it can be used without any further problems.
21 If there is such a document as we're discussing at this moment,
22 you should consult with counsel before you introduce such a document.
23 Mr. Hannis, please proceed.
24 MR. HANNIS: Yes, Your Honour. Among the other documents I
25 received during the first break that were to be the basis for some of the
1 questions that counsel asked, one of them is what appears to be a criminal
2 report from an individual, a private citizen. There's an individual named
3 that does not appear to be from the MUP, but it's sent to the public
4 prosecutor, and it appears, if I can read the date, maybe June of 2004,
5 complaining about some alleged conduct of Mr. Davidovic. There is no
6 criminal complaint. There's no document from the court or from the public
7 prosecutor. So if this was the basis for asking the question about whether
8 there's a criminal complaint against him, I would submit it's inadequate.
9 I don't know how it was transmitted between counsel and the client because
10 I know it's in B/C/S, so it wasn't read, but, Your Honour, it does not, I
11 think, support the question that was asked.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, any question on the last observation by
13 Mr. Hannis?
14 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour. It wasn't put forward as the --
15 that document was not put forward as the basis. I supplied with -- Mr.
16 Hannis with the documentation that I had, but that particular document was
17 not put forward as the basis for the question.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any stronger basis for that question?
19 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, yes. That's information that was
20 received by the investigators.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But has this been substantiated in any kind
22 of document or, from -- I mean, on a documentary basis is there any
23 stronger basis?
24 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I provided Mr. Hannis with a
25 whole series of documents. If Mr. Hannis wants to go through them with the
1 Court, that's fine.
2 MR. HANNIS: I am, Your Honour. And in answer to your question,
3 this appears to be the strongest one in regard to any criminal complaint.
4 The next one is a document that appears to be a civil appeal
5 regarding a complaint against Mr. Davidovic's company, his business, not in
6 an individual capacity. On -- he prevailed in the lower level, I
7 understand from the language assistant. However, on appeal it was
8 partially reversed, and he was ordered to pay -- his company was ordered to
9 pay some damages. So that was a civil proceeding.
10 And this second one -- this next one is also a civil judgement
11 against his company for money damages.
12 The third one is a document from June 30, 1992, signed by him,
13 which appears to be from the Bijeljina CSB, the regional police centre, in
14 which it documents that a vehicle was inspected and determined to be
15 appropriate for use by the MUP. I suppose this was a document that was
16 relied on to support the question about seizing documents -- seizing
17 vehicles for his personal use, but it's an official -- it appears to be an
18 official MUP document. The next one is the same regarding inspection of a
20 And the last item appears to be something from the local
21 cadaster reflecting the sale of land from Mr. Davidovic to a private
22 individual, a woman, on the 21st of March, 2005. And those are the only
23 documents I received.
24 And, again, that reflects my concern, Your Honour, about these
25 things, if they had them ten days or two weeks ahead of time, we would
1 request we'd be provided, we can discuss -- it doesn't appear to support
2 the kinds of questions that were asked and the impression that's given
3 about Mr. Davidovic, and that troubles me greatly, Your Honour. I think we
4 need to change the process.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand your complaint to be that
6 this is approaching a witness in a harassing and intimidating way on
7 insufficient grounds. Before the Chamber can form its opinion on it, of
8 course, we would need to inspect all these documents after they have been
10 Yes, Mr. Krajisnik.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know if we're in closed
12 session or in open session.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We're in open session, Mr. Krajisnik.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The document that was interpreted
15 by the Prosecutor was not explained fully. Under the legislation of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Republika Srpska, and the former Yugoslavia, the
17 criminal offences do not have a statute of limitations applying to them.
18 It's different for the traffic violations. So this was an offence. We
19 don't know its origins, but it remains on the file. And this was something
20 that had to do with both the parents and the guardians and their
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're commenting on the document. We'll see
23 once the document is translated, whether it formed a sufficient basis for
24 putting the questions on what a witness is supposed to have done when he
25 was 17.
1 Mr. Hannis, are you ready to --
2 MR. HANNIS: I am, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- call the witness for redirect?
4 MR. HANNIS: I am. Thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort the
6 witness into the courtroom, or Mr. Usher.
7 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, while the witness is being brought in,
8 I just want to make a comment, if I may, in relation to Mr. Hannis'
9 comments, and I can probably make them at the end of the evidence of this
10 particular witness because I see he's about to come in.
11 JUDGE ORIE: He's entering the courtroom.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 Mr. Hannis.
14 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Could we move the ELMO slightly so I could see the witness.
16 Thank you.
17 Re-examined by Mr. Hannis:
18 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I want to ask you about some of the questions you
19 were asked on cross-examination, and I'm going to go to page 14 -- 14362,
20 at line 15. Ms. Loukas was asking you about a meeting you told us about in
21 April or May at Bosanksa Veija [phoen], where you mentioned Mr. Krajisnik
22 was on the premises. Can you tell us first of all what was Bosanksa Veija?
23 Was that a hotel? Was that a building? What was that?
24 A. Before the war in the former Yugoslavia, every republic had its
25 own venue where the highest officials would meet, and that's what Bosnia-
1 Herzegovina had, was called Bijela Veija, and that's where the high
2 officials could meet and discuss matters that needed to be discussed. They
3 even had bedrooms there. With the start of the war, this villa was given
4 for use to the Serb leadership, and they used it for these purposes until
5 the end of the war.
6 Q. This meeting that you described, can you tell us how you came to
7 be there? How did you know there was going to be a meeting? Were you
8 invited? How did that come about?
9 A. Mico Stanisic invited me to that meeting, and the point was that
10 we should meet and discuss how we were to go about the transport of
11 ammunition and so on and so forth because he knew I was going to be
12 involved in that. I saw him there; that is Mico. I saw Arkan there and
14 Q. And who did you talk with? Did you talk with anyone other than
15 Mico Stanisic while you were there?
16 A. There was Frenki Simatovic there, as well. Arkan was there, and
17 I believe that someone else was there. Once Mr. Krajisnik left the
18 premises and then re-entered with another person. Karadzic came and went
19 twice; he was standing there for a while talking to some people.
20 Q. During this discussion was there a sit-down meeting among a group
21 of people, or was this only you talking with Mico Stanisic?
22 A. We were sitting at a table.
23 Q. And when you say "we," who do you mean?
24 A. There was I, Mr. Frenki, Mico Stanisic, and Arkan came in later
25 and joined us, and he was in the company of another man who I didn't know.
1 Q. All right. At page 14385, lines 7 and 8, Ms. Loukas asked you
2 about whether you had a copy your report about Edin Hujdurovic, and you
3 said you would check. Were you able to check and see if you have that?
4 A. Yes, I do. I have a copy. I have some other documents, and I
5 wanted to ask the Trial Chamber at the end of my testimony whether I should
6 give the documents to them because I didn't not have the opportunity of
7 contacting you. So if you would wish me to I could hand the documents
9 Q. Did you bring them with you when you returned to The Hague for
10 this visit?
11 A. Yes, I have the documentation with me. I don't know if I have
12 everything, but I do have documents here.
13 Q. Thank you. We'll address that with the Court and counsel at the
14 end. At page 14391, beginning with line 1, Ms. Loukas asked you about the
15 document signed by Mr. Krajisnik that Vojkan Dukovic showed you as his
16 authorisation to handle humanitarian resettlement. And she put it to you
17 that there was not any such document, and you said in your answer, "Yes, of
18 course, I can confirm, and I can add further details if you're interested."
19 Can you tell us what further details you can add about that
21 A. Because I was asked about how -- I asked about how it was
22 possible that he had such authorisation and I saw that there was president
23 of the Assembly in the upper left-hand corner. I saw him in the signature,
24 as well. That's why I can state with certainty that it was him.
25 Second, when I wanted to take the document off him, I was
1 wearing civilian clothes at the time and I was unable to compel him to hand
2 the document over, so he put it away somewhere.
3 In the past ten days that I spent at home now, I was contacted
4 by some people who said that they had seen the document. If you want me to
5 I can give you the names of these people. They even told me the details of
6 him showing them the document, if that's interesting to you.
7 Q. Yes. Could you tell us those names?
8 A. You mean now?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. Lejla Pasic, Edib Hujdurovic. He even held the document in his
12 Q. Is that the same Edib that you helped?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Next, Mr. Davidovic, I want to go to page 14405, beginning at
15 line 10. Ms. Loukas had asked you a series of questions about your unit
16 and -- and you regarding certain people and asking whether you had led
17 these people away from their homes. In particular, at this point she was
18 asking you about Husein Apaka, and you said at lines 11 and 12 you were at
19 the corps command when a military officer complained and demanded that
20 Husein be sent to Batkovic for having said something insulting.
21 First of all, can you tell me who was the corps commander at
22 that time?
23 A. The corps commander at the time was Mr. Ilic; I don't know his
24 first name. I believe there was a lieutenant colonel or a colonel who
25 showed up and complained of having been intercepted by some people on his
1 way to work, and they were threatening him, or at least that's how that
2 particular officer perceived them.
3 Q. And this lieutenant colonel who complained, you didn't know his
5 A. No.
6 Q. Further on, on that page at line 16, you mention that you regret
7 not having warned Husein. You said, "If I had done so, I would have lost
8 my head." Can you explain to the Judges why or how that would have
9 happened and by whom that would have happened?
10 A. Had they known that I was unable physically to leave the premises
11 and go over to tell him to go in hiding, I would probably be targeted by
12 them. They usually either mobilised people or threw a hand grenade on
13 their house; who knows what could have happened later on. I did suffer
14 some problems at a later stage, but I don't want to go into details now and
15 tell you how serious they were.
16 Q. And do you relate those later problems to -- well, to what
17 conduct of yours do you relate those later problems?
18 A. After the events in 1992 when we had prevented those attempts at
19 taking people away, they started threatening me, and I'm referring to the
20 people who were around the SDS. I mean, Predrag Zuco, Drago Vukovic,
21 Ljubisa Mauzer, Vojkan, and all the other ones who were guilty of that
22 conduct in Bijeljina, and they were very close to the SDS. There were many
23 who were exposed to their brutal conduct; they even came to search my house
24 during the war. My parents were there, and they were even -- their life
25 was threatened unless they went along with their requests.
1 Q. Mr. Davidovic, finally I want to ask you a couple of questions --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
3 MR. HANNIS:
4 Q. I want to ask you a couple questions to finish up, Mr. Davidovic.
5 Defence counsel asked you a number of questions and suggested or insinuated
6 that you engaged in various activity that might have amounted to criminal
7 activity or near-criminal activity. You denied all those, as I understand
8 your testimony.
9 Who would have a motive to make up those kinds of things about
11 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I object to that question. There is
12 no basis for that sort of question; it's speculation.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis, if you ask the witness whether he is
16 aware of anyone who has a motive or whether he ever formed an opinion on
17 certain events that could have created a motive.
18 MR. HANNIS: Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Davidovic, because it's your position that those allegations
20 are untrue and assuming that's the case, do you have any experience that
21 would lead you to have reached a conclusion about who would make up things
22 like that about you? First just say yes or no, if you can.
23 A. Yes. If you'll allow me, I, in fact, wanted to tell you more
24 about it.
25 During the war, while I was working for the police and as a
1 member of the police doing my best to prevent such unlawful conduct, I
2 would end up in a situation where I had to protect myself and my family.
3 Sometimes I could not even go to Bijeljina.
4 I must admit that the times were very difficult because people
5 would be killed or go missing overnight and then be found dead somewhere.
6 All this was happening simply because that's the sort of people that were
7 in power, and one could not do anything about it.
8 When I returned from my earlier testimony here, everybody knew
9 that I was a witness before this Tribunal, and they reported it on the TV
10 as if I had been accusing some people. The local newspaper wrote about me
11 being a criminal. I was never, ever standing trial. I had a labour
12 dispute going on, but that was related to my company, and I was never in a
13 situation that would end up in any criminal complaints. I did my job
14 professionally as a police officer.
15 But what I wanted to say is that in the last ten days, those
16 persons who I have been mentioning in my testimony were visited by people
17 who wanted them to sign statements to the effect that this was not true and
18 that they should conjure allegations against me.
19 I wish to remind you that the SDS is still in power there, that
20 they have the police force under their control and all the other
21 institutions. And I can tell you that it isn't easy to testify here and
22 withstand all the pressure that I have been exposed to.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, the only other matter that I want to
25 address is, I think, with counsel I have discussed -- there was an issue
1 regarding whether Mr. Krajisnik was in New York for negotiations. Mr.
2 Davidovic had said 1991 and 1992 in his statement. We have in Mr. Okun's
3 diary, there is a reference in, I think, in Exhibit 212 --
4 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, there is no contest that Mr. Krajisnik
5 was in New York in 1993. He just wasn't in New York late 1991, early 1992
6 as indicated by the witness.
7 MR. HANNIS: I think we have an agreement with counsel that Mr.
8 Krajisnik was in New York in March of 1993.
9 JUDGE ORIE: That's agreed.
10 MS. LOUKAS: I think that's what I just said, Mr. Hannis.
11 MR. HANNIS: Thank you. I have no other questions at this time,
12 Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas. Let me first see.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 MS. LOUKAS: Yes, Your Honour?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Just was asking if the Bench had any questions. I
18 Judge Hanoteau has one or more questions for you.
19 Questioned by the Court:
20 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Witness, as part of the
21 missions you accomplished in Sarajevo, in Bijeljina, in Brcko, and in
22 Zvornik, I would like to know whether you had the feeling that you were in
23 a position to accomplish these tasks without meeting any obstacles, without
24 meeting any specific obstruction.
25 A. Well, I didn't think I would have difficulties -- well, I did
1 think I would have difficulties, but I got through the work in about a
2 month. I knew I wouldn't be able to complete the task.
3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat your
5 A. When I went there, I was conscious of the fact that what I had to
6 do I wouldn't be able to do without coming across resistance and
7 difficulties, but I was conscious that I would be doing my assignment and
8 that this would contribute to the fact that when the legitimate authorities
9 would be established, then the authorities would realise that this was done
10 in their interests. But as the time space was short, just a month, there
11 were requests for me to withdraw. So it was only in effect for a brief
12 period of time, not lasting in character.
13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] These obstacles, this feeling
14 you had that you were not able to accomplish your task fully, but these
15 obstacles you were able to circumvent them because you explained to us that
16 you were in a position to fully accomplish your mission; you were in a
17 position to arrest people; you were in a position to seize property. You
18 were in a position to accomplish the tasks that had been set out to you.
19 A. I did my job energetically and with full responsibility without
20 any compromise at all, and this gave me the right to do what I did, and
21 they weren't able to stand up to me, to oppose me. But my presence there
22 and the job that I was doing gave rise to revolt and resistance, and that
23 is why my presence there for them was completely unacceptable.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] My question is the following,
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 sir: Who was supporting you? What was helping you to fulfil your mission?
2 A. Well, I had full support from my ministry, the Federal Republic
3 of Yugoslavia, and I was responsible to them, in fact, and I must say and
4 recognise that in my whole involvement I had the support of Mico Stanisic.
5 He asked that those paramilitaries be disarmed, and he was in contact with
6 us all the time, and he gave us full support. And the police in Republika
7 Srpska was at my service; they provided reinforcements for me. So I didn't
8 have any resistance in that quarter.
9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I believe that the question has
10 been asked previously, but I'd like things to be as clear as possible. How
11 can you identify this resistance, the obstacles you were confronted with?
12 If there was a name to put on these obstacles, on this resistance, what
13 name would that be? Who would it be?
14 A. The Crisis Staffs. They were the ones who were the decisive
15 factors. The Crisis Staff supported, up to a point in time, the fact that
16 these paramilitaries should be disarmed, but they left it up to us to do
17 our job. And as soon as I disarmed the paramilitaries, I was no longer
18 acceptable. And the problem was with those paramilitaries that at one
19 point in time they were set apart from the Crisis Staff and did what they
20 wanted. They didn't listen to the Crisis Staff so that not even the Crisis
21 Staff had full control of them. And when they saw that they were not able
22 to control them anymore, what happened? They went to the SUP. They took
23 over the Ministry of the Interior, the local branch. They took over the
24 documentation that they had, weapons permits and so on. They looked for
25 driving licenses, for vehicles. And they could do what they did. And
1 those were the reasons for which the Crisis Staff -- as soon as we finished
2 with them, they went on doing what they did before. They said, Do your
3 job. Disarm the Red Berets. Go to Bijeljina, finish the job with Mauzer
4 and his group, go to Zvornik, finish the job with the Yellow Wasps, and as
5 soon as you finish on the third day you, Mico, withdraw and the others were
6 come in. That's what it was like.
7 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] In other words, what you're
8 saying without any ambiguity, that those were opposed to the accomplishment
9 of your mission were the Crisis Staffs.
10 Thank you, sir.
11 Second question I'd like to ask you, it's a more technical
12 question. As part of your testimony and in your statement, you mentioned
13 the reserve police forces, and at some point you said that the members of
14 the reserve policemen had increased dramatically. My question is the
15 following: I would like you to tell me, to explain to me what were these
16 police reserve forces. What was the role of these forces as part of the
17 institution of the republic? What were they exactly?
18 A. I'll try and be brief. At every local organ, at the level of the
19 republic, pursuant to a decision of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly that a
20 reserve force should be established, and it was established pursuant to an
21 Assembly decision, and the Ministry of the Interior was in charge of seeing
22 that there was a full complement in those forces. And then within the
23 frameworks of Bijeljina, for example, or Tuzla, the centre Tuzla with the
24 18 municipalities there would be so many members of the reserve force. In
25 Bilje itself, that many. The strength, the force. Now, each local commune
1 within the municipality in Bijeljina, there were 54 local communities in
2 actual fact. In each local commune a reserve police station was
3 established, and it was formed exclusively of members, civilians, persons
4 who had done their military service and who had some basic concepts of
5 handling weapons, for example. And those individuals were then further
6 trained over a longer period of time from '78 or '79 when the reserve force
7 was filled up with members.
8 During the winter months every year they would have several
9 hours of training, and they would be capacitated to be reserve policemen,
10 trained to be reserve policemen. So Bijeljina had a certain number of
11 reserve policemen of that kind. And according to the socialist system and
12 the defence in the socialist system, and each individual was a member of
13 the defence system, that implied that the members of the reserve force
14 should take over the functions of the police force in the local commune
16 Once the war had started -- when the war started, of the number
17 that was there already, let's say 400 men, this number was increased
18 overnight to 1.200 without any decision being made on the part of any
19 organ. Of course, there was probably some body who issued orders to the
20 local SUP to do that. I say that from the aspects of Bijeljina. And all
21 those people who were there, the number was raised, the number of members
22 was raised. Uniforms were supplied. There weren't enough uniforms, so
23 uniforms had to be supplied and weapons too. But this was the reserve
24 force of the police who had their weapons in the MUP organ, and later on
25 the reserve force was expanded. So there were 400 members to begin with
1 and 1.200 afterwards. So this became a military unit which, in fact,
2 carried out assignments pursuant to orders from the authorities in these
3 inter-ethnic conflicts. The police took over the role of being able to do
4 this. Checkpoints were set up; controls were set up. The comings and
5 goings of persons and vehicles was established. I don't know if I have
6 succeeded in explaining this to you, but that's what the organisation was
7 like. That's what happened. And once the elections had taken place, the
8 SDS members would send in members, and the children of those people, they
9 would make up these numbers for a full complement of the reserve force,
10 bring them up to strength.
11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] When you talk about
12 paramilitary groups, do you also include people coming from the reserve
13 police? Those groups of paramilitaries, were they formed from those police
15 A. No, no. The paramilitaries weren't formed from the reserve
16 police force and the police force. The paramilitaries were formed of
17 individuals who had come in and established separate units. All of them
18 had names of some kind, the Guards or the Sokols, the Eagles, the
19 scorpions, the Red Berets, or whatever. They had people from outside
20 mostly, people who hadn't been in any military formation, people who hadn't
21 done their military service at all. And in each local commune they would
22 collect together on that basis, and they were placed at the function and
23 disposal of the local authorities, and their leaders for the most part were
24 either members of the Crisis Staff or members of the inner circle of SDS
25 leadership. And these paramilitary formations were stronger even than
1 members of the police force. Nobody was able to stand up to them. They
2 had modern weapons, heavy weaponry even. They had APCs, sophisticated
3 weapons. So nobody was able to stand up to them. The regular police
4 forces with their infantry and small arms weren't able to stand up to them.
5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Then those paramilitary groups
6 were just being created spontaneously. Were they being formed under the
7 impulse of an individual, or was there an institution creating them? Was
8 there an institution in place to create, to make sure that such organs were
9 created, such groups were created? Was it spontaneous, or was it
10 organised, and if it was organised, who was behind it?
11 A. First of all, they couldn't have been organised spontaneously.
12 They could volunteer to make up a unit, but there was no spontaneity, that
13 is to say it wasn't on the basis of somebody's will or the will of
14 individuals. Somebody had to supply the weapons to pay for the uniforms,
15 to give them premises, to determine what their assignments were, and they
16 received that from the local Crisis Staffs. Nobody was established as a
17 military, paramilitary information overnight and say I want to take up a
18 weapon and loot. They would be in the function of the local authorities
19 and Crisis Staff, but then they would set up on their own. They would feel
20 themselves to be stronger and more powerful and escape control.
21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Once again in order to make
22 sure that we understand each other, according to you, nevertheless, those
23 paramilitary groups were formed through the Crisis Staffs. They were the
24 ones who instigated their creation.
25 A. Each municipality had its own unit. Each place had its own unit,
1 and it didn't want to come under the police or under the army. It was a
2 force apart.
3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to ask you one question just to
5 clarify one of your last answers. When you said paramilitary groups were
6 formed through or at the instigation of the Crisis Staffs, were there any
7 paramilitary groups that were already -- you do not hear me, I understand.
8 Do you get translation now? Yes.
9 A. Yes, yes. There was some interruption. I apologise.
10 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber has heard some evidence about Arkan's
11 men or Seselj's men. Were these also paramilitary groups formed through
12 the Crisis Staffs, or were they from a different origin?
13 A. Those paramilitary formations were, in fact, the nucleus of later
14 paramilitary formations. Let me tell you some interesting details.
15 Before Arkan's unit arrived in Bijeljina, they had some training
16 centre on the boarder between Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia. Now, why did
17 they come to that border belt for training? They waited for an opportune
18 moment to become included into the conflict or to bring the conflict to a
19 head that was looming. So when they arrived, Arkan's men, they didn't
20 dwell on - how shall I put this - on any basics, like who came from
21 outside. Who -- it's the locals that knew that. So they engaged locals
22 from the environment who could tell them who had money, who had property,
23 who had other means and resources, which firms were owned by Croatians and
24 things like that. So when they finished all that and when they came, as
25 they call it -- when they achieved liberty, as they put it, they managed to
1 collect everything that was valuable.
2 For example, the latest vehicle that was bought by the
3 municipality, and this was financed by the citizens, was a vehicle that was
4 looted and taken away from Bijeljina and nobody ever saw it again. So when
5 a group like that was formed, they would get in these -- Savic Ljubisa
6 Mauzer was a result of Arkan's arrival, because after Arkan arrived he
7 would take over local men. So this was all done under the auspices of the
8 Crisis Staff and people from the SDS. There was nobody else. The army was
9 a part; the police was a part. And that is why nobody was able to stand up
10 to them. And when the Crisis Staff felt they were under jeopardy, as they
11 were in Brcko with the red berets arrival, and Crnogorac, he said, Let's
12 disarm those paramilitaries because they're creating problems for us, they
13 actually stood behind them. That's what happened.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. Judge Hanoteau.
15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Terribly sorry, sir, but I must
16 ask you another question. I think you said earlier that some Serbs in
17 Bijeljina who did not accept the SDS policies that something happened to
18 them, that some unfortunate things happened to them. Did I understand you
20 A. Yes, you understood me very well. After the SDS came to power,
21 all those who were not in the SDS were replaced overnight; when the armed
22 conflict started in Brcko, for example. Then in Bijeljina they just
23 collected up people who were not SDS members. They would get them out of
24 their houses overnight, mobilise them and send them to the front, which
25 means, We're in power now and you're going to have to fight, and we're here
1 to command. We're here to page policies.
2 So all those who were opposed were mobilised. They were called
3 up, and they were not able to go home from the front line. They were sent
4 to the front, or they would have to gain special permission to go home.
5 They would just round them up off the streets. Many such examples and
6 similar ones.
7 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So they were sent to the front
9 A. Precisely. Mostly people who were intellectuals, educated people
10 holding responsible positions, respected people, people with authority in
11 the environment in which they lived.
12 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Have the questions of the Bench triggered any need
14 to put further questions to the witness?
15 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour.
16 MR. HANNIS: I have one, Your Honour, because I wasn't sure you
17 got the answer to your question.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Further examined by Mr. Hannis:
20 Q. Mr. Davidovic, Judge Orie asked you about your assertion that
21 these paramilitaries were created or formed by the Crisis staffs, and then
22 he asked you about Arkan's men and Seselj's men and, I would add, the Red
23 Berets. Were these created by the Crisis Staffs, or did they have another
24 origin, and if you know, what was that?
25 A. Well, the Red Berets came pursuant to requests by the Crisis
1 Staff; I'm thinking about Brcko. They officially refered to the MUP of
2 Serbia, asking for assistance that the red berets should take part in the
3 front line. Once the red berets arrived they did not report to the army
4 command and be in the -- stand up in the defence of Brcko. They stayed in
5 the town; they took the premises over where they were accommodated; they
6 came over took over command of the SUP, of the police, and did what they
7 did. And the people from the Crisis Staff saw immediately that they had
8 brought in somebody whom didn't suit them, so they said go back. But they
9 didn't want to go back anymore; the Red Berets didn't want to go back
10 anymore. They had -- were in command from Serbia, and they could take over
11 all the goods they wanted to and take them back to Serbia, so it was in
12 their interest to stay on. So nothing could happen without the Crisis
13 Staffs; everything that was done that was authorised by someone. Vojko
14 Djukovic, for example, who rounded up people in Bijeljina, as an example,
15 received the rank of major from Karadzic officially in the town square. He
16 was remunerated for what he did, so nothing was spontaneous; nothing
17 happened at the initiative of an individual or a group without the
18 knowledge or a group of the local powers that be, the authorities.
19 Q. I'm sorry but I still need to know from you if you know who
20 formed these groups? Who supplied them with weapons and equipment? Who
21 recruited them? How did they get started? Was it the Crisis Staffs or
22 someone or something else, if you know, Arkan's, Seselj's, Red Berets?
23 A. At the beginning, the Crisis Staff. The Crisis Staff formed the
24 groups, provided them with weapons and equipment and a building they were
25 to be accommodated with. They supplied them with the initial resources,
1 but as time went on it was citizens who gave in their contributions, people
2 working abroad they would get quite a lot of money on the basis of these
3 contributions to use for uniforms, equipment, their station, and everything
4 else. They had enough weapons, so they didn't actually need weapons, but
5 for everything else, from the dues being paid and coming in.
6 MR. HANNIS: I'll stop there, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. I'm not, however, because I --
8 Questioned by the Court:
9 JUDGE ORIE: If you're talking about Red Berets, about Seselj's
10 men, about Arkan's men, when they first were put together as a group, was
11 that done in Bosnia-Herzegovina, or did they come from elsewhere in Bosnia-
13 A. I owe you explanation here when it comes to Bijeljina and the
14 arrival in Bijeljina between Arkan's men and Seselj's groups. There is a
15 big difference there. Arkan's men, Arkan's group had been to Croatia
16 beforehand; they had their trading centre there. They had their barracks
17 there and everything they needed for establishing their unit, whereas when
18 it comes to the radicals or Seselj's mean, in Bijeljina they were not able
19 to do anything and they didn't want to do anything. I have to say that.
20 You see, in Bijeljina the radicals were led by Mirko Blagojevic, who did
21 not have a negative attitude towards the Muslims; quite the contrary. The
22 radicals in Bijeljina led by Mirko Blagojevic led the Muslims; they even
23 issued a proclamation asking that the Muslims be protected and not
24 ethnically cleansed. That's a very interesting piece of information, and
25 the radicals, they were protecting the Muslims. There are a lot of
1 examples to bare this out, where they called for the protection of the
2 Muslims and they asked Mirko Blagojevic for protection. That's very
3 interesting; that's the truth of it that's as it stands.
4 Now, while they themselves were exposed to pleasantness and then
5 they were disbanded, they weren't allowed -- they weren't able to act as a
6 unit, their weapons were confiscated. So -- that is to say, the radicals
7 no longer had any formation, any group, and they had a lot of difficulty in
8 Bijeljina, in actual fact. At the beginning of the war when they became
9 involved and went to Brcko, they were up at the front line there. They
10 went to Brcko, and when they took control of the town, which was a
11 strategic goal at that time, they withdrew to Brcko. They weren't in town
12 looting and taking other people's property and engaging in anything like
13 that. That's the truth of it, and it must be told.
14 The -- now, 12.000 Muslims went to Janja, and the Janja Muslims
15 asked the radicals to protect them. But when it comes to Arkan, he was
16 brought in. He came in from Serbia. He was sent from Serbia; you know how
17 he was sent and they were sent. You heard a lot about that, so you don't
18 need to tell you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You talked about Arkan's men who had been in
20 Croatia. They had their training camps. Who organised the training camps?
21 A. Well, it was organ -- they were organised by the army or, rather,
22 the republican MUP of Serbia.
23 JUDGE ORIE: By whom were they financed?
24 A. Everything went via the republican SUP of Serbia; they received
25 their salaries there, their weapons there. So that's it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers. If there are no
2 further questions from the parties.
3 This concludes your evidence in this court, Mr. Davidovic. I'd
4 like to thank you --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- for coming, not only once but two times to The
7 Hague and for having answered all the questions. You're excused.
8 Madam Usher, could you please -- or Mr. Usher, could you please
9 escort Mr. Davidovic out of the courtroom.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your patience.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Hannis.
13 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I would like to offer the exhibits we
14 had in connection with this witness. 764 through 782 were ones that we
15 discussed with him, and then I believe there were another five that we
16 propose as contextual documents, Your Honour. Number 817 -- I'm sorry,
17 they need to be given numbers. They -- included, Your Honour, among this
18 group is the documents relating to the search of Mr. Davidovic's apartment
19 that we talked about. I think it's the --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, numbers for these exhibits would
22 THE REGISTRAR: P817, P818, P819, P820 and P821.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Now just to be sure, we usually give a short
24 description. 817 is a fax message dated 29th of April, 1992, signed by
25 Jesuric, and the remainder of the description if we find it on your list
1 and which will be copied into the list of exhibits.
2 P818 is a letter from minister of the interior Sarajevo 19th
3 July 1992 signed by Mico Stanisic. 819 is a document with the heading SR
4 BiH Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina Main Staff, strictly
5 confidential, number 31, dated the 28th of July, 1992, disarmament of
6 paramilitary formations. 820 would be RSS MUP daily bulletin, 29th of
7 July, 1992. And 821 would be certificate for temporarily confiscated
9 MR. HANNIS: Thank you, Your Honours. In addition, Mr.
10 Davidovic mentioned that he had brought some of his documents pertaining to
11 the Muslims --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. HANNIS: -- that he had assisted. I don't know how the Court
14 wants to deal with that. I haven't seen them yet; I'd be happy to make
15 copies, provide them to Defence, and we can look at them and read whether
16 or not it's anything the Court needs to have.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, would you be willing to discuss with --
18 MS. LOUKAS: Sounds like a sensible arrangement, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then the Chamber would like to reach a report
20 on -- especially if the parties would say that there's no need to tender
21 them, the Chamber would like to know what kind of documents Mr. Davidovic
22 offered, not only to the parties but also to the Chamber so that we -- then
23 to finalise the list of exhibits, we would have to know exactly what
24 exhibits Mr. Krajisnik would like to tender at the very end. I suggest
25 that we'll not at this moment go into detail in respect of those documents
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 because they are in a list of documents we still have to consider. That is
2 the exhibits presented by Mr. Krajisnik in relation to witness Bjelobrk,
3 17th of June, such as Assembly minutes, maps, et cetera. The Trial Chamber
4 has asked Mr. Krajisnik to provide unmarked translated copies of any
5 document he'd like to tender.
6 In view of Mr. Prestojevic , 20th of June, a number of documents
7 were used in cross-examination. They were not tendered. In relation to
8 Witness 680, 23rd of June, the Trial Chamber has indicated that it would
9 wait until the list of exhibits including the ones presented by Mr.
10 Krajisnik had been finalised before dealing with admission.
11 Mr. Krajisnik, on these documents you should consult with
12 counsel, and we'd like to invite you to tender those documents into
13 evidence that are not already in evidence within one week from now on. The
14 general rule will be whenever you use any documents in cross-examination
15 you'd like to tender, you'll have to make entirely clear within one week
16 whether you'd like to have them in evidence, and you have to provide the
17 Chamber with English copies of the documents.
18 I further would like to inform you that your cross-examination
19 tends to be more and more time-consuming. We allowed you far beyond what
20 you indicated in respect of this witness. It was not, in every respect,
21 well organised. I do understand for the next witness, especially in view
22 of documents, you are better organised. The Chamber might in the near
23 future be more strict on this time. And as I said before, the Defence is
24 invited to agree on how much time would be used by counsel and what time
25 would be needed for remaining questions, for additional questions by Mr.
1 Krajisnik. I hope you can agree on it. If, finally, that would cause you
2 any problem, then the Chamber will have to decide on the matter and allot
3 time to Defence counsel and to you, Mr. Krajisnik, and the Chamber prefers
4 if you would agree on that with counsel.
5 Mr. Krajisnik, you'd like to address the Chamber? Yes. Please
6 do so.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have only one question, Your
8 Honour. If the stenographic notes of the session of the Assembly of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina that were sent to the OTP and have not been translated,
10 can such a document be tendered into evidence? We don't have the capacity
11 to have the entire document translated, and the important discussions are
12 contained in this one particular session.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you clearly identify what portions you
14 think are most important to be translated, and then, of course, we'll --
15 the OTP should be in a position to compare the stenographic notes and the
16 minutes as they were published or at least produced. But please provide us
17 or the OTP, and if there's any problem the Chamber to the extent possible
18 will assist you; provide us with the most relevant parts, and make that
19 clear on a piece of paper so that we can continue.
20 Then we have got 20 minutes left.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Ms. Loukas.
23 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour will recall there was a matter I wanted
24 to raise when the witness was gone.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'd like to do that at this moment, Ms.
2 MS. LOUKAS: If I may, Your Honour, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
4 MS. LOUKAS: Going back to this discussion, and I'm talking
5 about page 55.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you, since I had a late start on my LiveNote
7 give me two or three words, then I could find --
8 MS. LOUKAS: Certainly, Your Honour. "And again that reflects,
9 my concern, Your Honour, about these things, if they have ten days or two
10 weeks ahead of him." This is Mr. Hannis speaking, and that is line 8.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I've got it.
12 MS. LOUKAS: There is Mr. Hannis at line 8. "Ahead of time.
13 Doesn't appear to support the kinds of questions that were asked and the
14 impression that's given about Mr. Davidovic that troubles me greatly, Your
15 Honour. I think we need to change the process." Then Your Honour
16 indicates, "Yes, I do understand your complaint to be this is approaching a
17 witness in a harassing and intimidating way on insufficient grounds.
18 Before the Chamber can form its opinion on it, of course, we need to
19 inspect all these documents after they have been translated."
20 Now, Your Honour, firstly if there is any suggestion, Your
21 Honour, in relation to harassing and intimidating on insufficient grounds,
22 firstly, Your Honour, as Defence counsel, one can only proceed on the
23 information that is conveyed to you by your investigators. You sift
24 through the material, and you see if there are reasonable grounds to put
25 the questions. Once you've made that determination, you have an obligation
1 as an advocate to put these questions to the witness, and it's an
2 obligation one should never shirk from, regardless of how unpopular it may
3 make you in the world, how unpopular it may make you with the Prosecution,
4 and how unpopular it might make you with the witness. That is an
5 advocate's duty, and I will not have it spoken of lightly in a courtroom --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas.
7 MS. LOUKAS: -- in that way. And I might add, if I may, I am
8 performing my duty; I am obliged to do my duty, and let's have a look,
9 shall we, at what kind of evidence was brought forward by Mr. Davidovic, in
10 which instance what are we saying, the Defence can't cross-examine unless
11 they produce a document that proves beyond reasonable doubt. All we have
12 to provide, Your Honour, is we are satisfied there is reasonable grounds,
13 and that is the basis. And let's have a look shall we at the kind of
14 evidence that witness was giving. "I heard from somebody that he said that
15 he was sending the money to Mr. Krajisnik." That sort of evidence.
16 Hearsay. Where's the document there that the Prosecution are putting
17 forward? Just out of interest.
18 Let's just turn the page into some other aspects of this
19 particular witness's evidence that this money was being taken to Mr.
20 Krajisnik in Pale. This is what he heard somebody say. That's what's
21 passing for evidence? I don't see a document there. Then we hear about a
22 document that refers to certain things that's signed by Mr. Krajisnik. We
23 never see the document, of course.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, Ms. Loukas, there is a --
25 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, I just --
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- there is a difference. Let me just put a
2 hypothetical situation to you.
3 If an investigator says that someone in a village told him that
4 this witness is a rapist, then that might be insufficient to put to a
5 witness, "Aren't you a rapist?" What's the difference with what you said
6 is if a witness appears in this court and if he gives hearsay evidence,
7 first of all, he can be cross-examined on it. To that extent, I mean this
8 Chamber, of course, is not blind for the whole concept of cross-
9 examination, and even if where the case law of this Tribunal does not
10 prohibit it from being admitted, that doesn't mean that the Chamber is not
11 aware that hearsay evidence is certainly not the best evidence. But you
12 compare the information given by a witness during testimony when he has
13 given a solemn declaration that he will speak the truth, the whole truth
14 and nothing but the truth, and information given by some unknown source
15 which is put to the witness.
16 You may have noticed that the Chamber didn't stop you when you
17 questioned the witness on these matters. You may also have noticed that,
18 although Mr. Hannis has expressed some concern, that these objections were
19 not such that you're not allowed to put it to the witness. So a clear
20 distinction has to be made. The Chamber does not blame you for performing
21 your duties.
22 At the same time, one could have some concern about the effects
23 of putting quite strong assertions to a witness if finally there would be,
24 and I'm not saying there is not, but if there would be an insufficient
25 basis for such assertions.
1 This is not, I would say, the primary problem for the Defence,
2 but it can be of some concern. Just as it would be of concern to the
3 Chamber whenever a witness would, for whatever reason, feel uncomfortable;
4 not due to being questioned about what is the truth but about any -- be
5 uncomfortable for any reason that should not make him uncomfortable.
6 That's the only thing I'm saying about it. That can be a matter of
7 concern. You were defending your position as Defence counsel. The Chamber
8 fully accepts that you are performing your duties as good as you can. At
9 the same time, if the documentation supporting such questions, which come
10 down to rather strong assertions, is not complete, sometimes caution should
11 be taken there as well.
12 MS. LOUKAS: Well, I take on board what Your Honour says, but we
13 are in a Tribunal that does not operate on the classic --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MS. LOUKAS: -- systems of evidence, as it were. The Prosecution
16 seems quite content to rely on hearsay, the Tribunal seems quite happy to
17 receive hearsay. Should the Defence information be curtailed in a way that
18 the information that's put forward by the Prosecution and in a way that
19 information is received by the Trial Chamber is not?
20 JUDGE ORIE: You, again, make no distinction between sources of
21 information that are part of a testimony given under oath in court and
22 sources of information for, I would say, Defence, but the same would be
23 true for Prosecution preparing activities. The same, if there would be any
24 Defence witness, which would be approached by the Prosecution asserting bad
25 behaviour in the past, in the presence, and if there would be not a
1 sufficiently solid basis for putting that to a witness, then the Chamber
2 would certainly take a similar course where the Prosecution would be
3 invited to show to the Chamber what the basis for this approach of the
4 witness was.
5 So I think it's a matter not specifically for the Defence. It
6 would be true for the Prosecution as well.
7 MS. LOUKAS: Well, Your Honour, I think that what the rule is, in
8 the jurisdiction that I come from ,is that the advocate forms the view that
9 there is a reasonable basis for the matters that are being put, and I acted
10 in accordance with that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that enough has been said about it, if
12 you would agree with that, Ms. Loukas. Yes? Mr. Hannis as well.
13 Mr. Hannis, whether or not your next witness would still be
14 standing By, I take it he's not any more, but Mr. Tieger, it makes not much
15 sense to start for the last ten minutes.
16 MR. TIEGER: I would agree, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I would have a couple of other matters I would deal
19 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour I have three short procedural matters.
20 One, Mr. Gaynor advised me that the Court wanted some follow-up on a
21 decision regarding the fifth batch of 92 bis materials.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was on my list as well. It says parties
23 to respond on Monday the 27th of June. So it's not only Mr. Gaynor, but
24 for the fifth batch it would be for the Defence as well.
25 MR. HANNIS: This is regarding witness KRAJ 606.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 606, yes.
2 MR. HANNIS: The Court indicated it was not going to receive that
3 Material, and gave us an opportunity to respond. We appreciate that
4 Opportunity, and we do not wish to make any further submissions.
5 JUDGE ORIE: No further submissions.
6 MR. HANNIS: Secondly on my list, Your Honour --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, then, where both parties were invited to
8 -- that's -- no further submissions means --
9 MR. HANNIS: Means that evidence does not come in.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We indicated that had we would not admit the
11 statement or attachments but would provide the opportunity to further
12 explain the relevance. No further explanation, that means no relevance.
13 MR. STEWART: We have nothing more to say on that, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It's clear.
15 MR. HANNIS: Your Honour, I wanted to tender the exhibits of Mr.
16 Bjelobrk .
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I said that we would wait until we have the
18 full list there and Mr. Krajisnik has one week to finalise his list. And
19 from now on, the rule will be not later than one week after the witness has
20 testified. And how we'll do that just before the recess is still to be
21 determined, because the Chamber is not inclined to wait a week at that
23 MR. HANNIS: One short matter regarded the provenance of exhibit
24 770, a publication, there was a question about the name of that
25 publication. What I've been able to ascertain is apparently the initials
1 MG appear on the copy of the document, I'm told that stands for Muslimanski
2 Glas. It was a publication briefly during the war, and I don't think it
3 exists any longer. That's all I can tell you about that, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That's all.
5 MR. HANNIS: And finally dossiers. We didn't have any court last
6 Friday, we have some more for the Municipalities of Foca --
7 JUDGE ORIE: The fifth batch is expected today, isn't it? Yes.
8 MR. HANNIS: Foca, Hadzici, Ilidza and Novi Grad.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. HANNIS: If we could tender those and give them a provisional
11 number, I guess.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, physical distribution is not always
13 immediately required because it damages our backs if we go.
14 Having dealt with that, do you have another point?
15 MR. HANNIS: One last thing, Your Honour, there was a collection
16 of Zvornik contextual documents that we wanted to provide.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Isn't that a new list or is that a -- it's
19 MR. HANNIS: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And reduced, I hope.
21 MR. HANNIS: I believe --
22 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no, it was --
23 MR. HANNIS: It's updated --
24 JUDGE ORIE: But there were a lot of translations.
25 MR. HANNIS: There are some translations, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So Zvornik has now been -- it will be --
2 numbers are were not yet assigned to it.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit number P822.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's Zvornik. And should numbers already be
5 assigned to the fifth batch? Yes, Madam Registrar.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P823, P824, P825, P826, P827.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you say which one for which municipality,
8 because that would certainly -- if we could do that tomorrow.
9 MR. HANNIS: In order?
10 JUDGE ORIE: So if you could assist, Mr. Hannis.
11 MR. HANNIS: Foca would be 823, Hadzici 824, Ilidza 825, and Novi
12 Grad 826.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's not perfectly clear only the but let me
14 try to repeat it slowly. Foca, 823; I think it was Hadzici is 824; Ilidza,
15 825; and Novi Grad, 826.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have a final matter; that is the Teslic and
17 Celinac dossiers. Both dossiers contain reports on the destruction of
18 cultural property and are signed by a certain Milos without any further
19 information; on the 15th of June the Office of the Prosecutor has indicated
20 that it would provide clarification. We are not admitting dossiers until
21 we have received the clarification as announced.
22 Is there any other procedural matter?
23 MR. HANNIS: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas. If there is not, then tomorrow we'll
25 sit in the morning at 9.00. We'll adjourn to then, tomorrow morning at
1 9.00, same courtroom.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.58 p.m,
3 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day
4 of June, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.