1 Friday, 1 July 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 Mr. Gaynor.
10 MR. GAYNOR: Your Honours, we'd like to begin the proceedings
11 with a brief oral application for protective measures.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. GAYNOR: I'll begin in open session and then I'll request
14 leave to go into private session for part of the application.
15 This is an application for protective measures for Witness KRAJ
16 165. We requested that he be permitted to testify with a pseudonym and
17 with facial distortion and in private session for those portions of his
18 testimony which will reveal identifying information. I'd like to refer
19 initially to the tests set up by Your Honours in your oral decisions on
20 the 13th of April and repeated on the 27th of April, 2005. Your Honours
21 said that in order to show a real risk that revealing the identity of a
22 witness could result in danger to that witness, there must be some
23 objective evidence. That objective evidence can be demonstrated through
24 such circumstances as a combination of the following three factors: 1,
25 the expected testimony of the witness may antagonise persons who continue
1 to reside in the territory in which the crimes were committed, for
2 example, by implicating those persons in crimes; 2, the prospective
3 witness or his or her family live in that territory, have property in the
4 territory, or have concrete plans to return to that territory; 3, a
5 general security situation which is unstable and is particularly
6 unfavourable to witnesses and the families of witnesses who appear before
7 the Tribunal.
8 In respect of the third limb of that test, we rely on the UNHCR
9 report of January 2005, which we've previously submitted to Your Honours,
10 and Your Honours have stated that that report states that "the climate in
11 Bosnia and Herzegovina remains unfavourable to persons who are resident
12 there or have family resident there and who wish to fully discharge their
13 duty to testify before the Tribunal."
14 Now, I'd now request to go into private session, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.
16 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber just has conveyed to the parties,
16 after having heard arguments for the protective measures sought by the
17 Prosecution, that it will give a decision as soon as possible, most
18 likely today, even if not yet a full reasoned decision.
19 Are you -- is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
20 The three of you -- Ms. Edgerton is new, so I take it, Ms. Edgerton, that
21 it will be you who's --
22 MR. GAYNOR: Ms. Richterova will be taking the next witness. Ms.
23 Edgerton and I will be excusing ourselves.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. JOSSE: Can I mention one matter, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, Mr. Josse, welcome. I had not given
2 up the hope yet to have a wig in court, but unfortunately you don't wear
3 them in The Hague.
4 MR. JOSSE: I was desperate to take mine off, so being able to
5 represent the client without a wig is a real pleasure to me, I have to
6 say. Your Honour, Mr. Stewart asked me to hand out copies of the
7 document from the high representative that was mentioned yesterday.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. JOSSE: I've given one to Mr. Tieger and I have copies for
10 Your Honours and the rest of the Court.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's the decision in view of the last witness, of
12 which Mr. Stewart would like to have the whole document presented.
13 Yes. Mr. Registrar, could you already assign a number to it. It
14 would be a Defence exhibit.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Defence Exhibit D44.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.
17 Mr. Usher, could I ask you to escort the next witness.
18 Do we have protective measures?
19 MS. RICHTEROVA: No. He testifies without protective measures.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Tokaca.
23 THE WITNESS: Good morning.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of
25 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a --
1 THE WITNESS: [Microphone not activated].
2 JUDGE ORIE: You have no translation? Is Mr. Tokaca on the right
3 channel? You are now. Mr. Usher, could you please --
4 Mr. Tokaca, before giving evidence I would like to invite you to
5 make the solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole
6 truth, and nothing but the truth. The text is in front of you.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
8 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Tokaca.
10 You'll first be examined by Ms. Richterova, counsel for the
11 Prosecution. Please proceed, Ms. Richterova.
12 WITNESS: MIRSAD TOKACA
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Examined by Ms. Richterova:
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Tokaca. Would you be so kind and state your
16 full name and date and year of your birth.
17 A. My name is Mirsad Tokaca. My father's name was Smajo. I was
18 born on 28th July, 1954, in Sarajevo.
19 Q. With the Court's permission I would lead the witness through the
20 educational and occupational background very briefly.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I hear no objections, so please proceed.
22 MS. RICHTEROVA:
23 Q. Mr. Tokaca --
24 MR. JOSSE: There is none.
25 MS. RICHTEROVA:
1 Q. Is it correct that you obtained a diploma of the political
2 science faculty in Sarajevo? You also studied --
3 A. This is what I graduated from.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps it's practical if Ms. Richterova puts
5 to you all these data and whenever there's anything wrong, please
6 interrupt her and correct her. Yes.
7 Please proceed.
8 MS. RICHTEROVA:
9 Q. You also studied the legal sciences and economics. You did the
10 post-graduate work in the field of international relations, and you began
11 your career as a journalist working for the TV Bosnia and Herzegovina.
12 And later, you start working -- or you set up a company which dealt with
13 financial management, marketing, and traffic. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. During the period of time, have you achieved any other education
16 or have you -- have you finished any theses apart from those I mentioned
18 A. I have not completed any additional studies. However, after my
19 post-graduate studies in international relations I am now involved in a
20 thesis that deals with the role of the United Nations in the war in
21 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I hope that after the research that I have been
22 involved in I will find the time to bring that work to an end.
23 Q. Mr. Tokaca, you were involved in the work of the state commission
24 for gathering facts on war crimes in Bosnia and Herzegovina. When was
25 this state commission set up?
1 A. Yes, I was the secretary of the state commission from August
2 1992. The commission was set up on the 28th of April, 1992, pursuant to
3 the decision of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
4 Already in May, June, and July I was invited to participate in the
5 preparation of that work. And in August I was appointed the secretary of
6 that commission and I stayed with this commission --
7 Q. Excuse me.
8 MS. RICHTEROVA: Is it possible that Mr. Usher would move little
9 bit the ELMO because I cannot see the witness.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MS. RICHTEROVA:
12 Q. Can you tell the Court what was the mandate of the state
14 A. It was to start gathering all the relevant facts and data,
15 testimonies, documents, military orders, and instructions of the civilian
16 authorities. And all those things that might be relevant for the court
17 proceedings that we expected would take place and that would deal with
18 the crimes committed during the war in the Republic of Bosnia and
19 Herzegovina as of the beginning of war in April 1992.
20 In addition to that, our task was also to set up relationships
21 with the relevant international organisations that dealt with the same
22 tasks, regardless of their affiliations, whether they were affiliated
23 with the United Nations, a different state, or whether they were
24 non-governmental organisations.
25 Q. Mr. Tokaca, I would like to ask you to make your answers a little
1 bit shorter because it's difficult to follow it and also for interpreters
2 it's difficult to translate such long answers.
3 You mentioned that your task was also set up cooperation but --
4 cooperation with other organisations. Apart from that, what other
5 specific tasks did you have within the commission?
6 A. We focussed on research; that was our main mission. We sought to
7 find people who had information about war crimes. We talked to them.
8 Based on their knowledge and interviews that we conducted with them, we
9 wanted to obtain relevant data that would be forwarded to the judiciary
10 organs in the future. That was the main part of our job.
11 Q. You mentioned interview. You interviewed people. Did you
12 personally interview any witnesses?
13 A. Yes. We opted for interviews because it is a complex form and
14 provide -- provides a lot of data. I conducted a series of interviews
15 with the witnesses. I took their statements. I was in charge of the
16 entire job. I was responsible for that. I had my associates who worked
17 on the ground in Sarajevo and in other parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
18 However, the condition of war were such that they imposed a need for me
19 to work with the witnesses and to take statements from them.
20 Q. Approximately how many statements did you personally take and how
21 many statements were taken by the commission as such?
22 A. I myself must have taken over a thousand statements. Every
23 statement that was taken for the commission I read. Up to today, we have
24 taken over 7.000 statements all together.
25 Q. Can you explain to the Court the methodology of work you adopted.
1 What -- after you take the statement or even before you take the
2 statement, what -- what was the work you did?
3 A. First of all it was very complicated to obtain statements and
4 witnesses in the conditions that we faced. I worked in Sarajevo that was
5 under siege all this time. We used all sorts of methods in order to
6 cross over through the tunnel in order to find the witnesses and work
7 with them.
8 After we gathered documentation, that documentation would arrive
9 in Sarajevo in our central office where the lawyers, historians, and
10 sociologists analysed that documentation and that documentation would be
11 classified according to the methodology that we set up, which was based
12 on the four Geneva Conventions and two Additional Protocols, one being
13 the protocol on genocide. Those documents were classified. We set up a
14 code system and this was filed in our archives and before that the data
15 was entered into our database.
16 Q. Before we go into your database, I would like to ask you -- you
17 said you analysed, you store, and later you put -- you input data into
18 your database. Until now, have you managed to enter all the data into
19 your database?
20 A. Unfortunately we have not. The documents are numerous. We were
21 -- faced a lot of problems during the war. Even after the war the work
22 of the commission has been obstructed. That is why quite a lot of
23 documentation has still not been analysed nor has been one -- part of the
24 database. I don't know what the final destiny of the commission will be.
25 Its status has still not been clarified. In the meantime, I and a group
1 of associates have set up an association; that is a voluntary
2 organisation. I'm a volunteer there. I did that in order to continue
3 our work because the work of the commission from the Dayton Accords until
4 today has been rather blocked and hampered with.
5 Q. You said that the work was blocked and that you with other group
6 of volunteers, you want to continue the work of the state commission.
7 How long did you work for the state commission?
8 A. Until 2003.
9 Q. And after that?
10 A. After that I became the president of the research and
11 documentation centre. I would like to add that all the funds were
12 interrupted in August 1998. That's why the commission was blocked in its
13 work. I had to seek solutions in order to be able to continue this very
14 important work, the research work that is very important, to my mind.
15 Q. So you said that you continue working in this research and
16 documentation centre. Is it a new type of work or do you continue what
17 you started -- what you already started doing with the state commission?
18 A. Our main goal was continue the good tradition of the commission.
19 In other words, we wanted to preserve our experiences, to build upon
20 them, to continue collecting documents and statements, to continue the
21 project of what we call oral history. And in addition to that, we wanted
22 the activity of this documentation centre to be enlarged and to spread on
23 to the gathering of other documentation that is filed in other
24 institutions. We wanted to create a good quality archive and to also
25 engage in the education of young people in the field. In other words, we
1 wanted to set up one unique place where we would collect documents that
2 could be relevant for providing answers to what happened during the
3 period 1992 to 1995. So this research centre focuses on this period of
4 time between 1992 and 1995 and everything that happened during that
5 period of time, during the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
6 Q. Mr. Tokaca, do you work on any specific project within the
7 research and documentation centrum?
8 A. First we created a strategy which we called "facing the past."
9 This strategy consists of several pillars or several very specific
10 projects that we are involved in. One of the key projects that we
11 started towards the end of 2003 is the project -- the working title is
12 "the losses of population." I can go back to that project later on. In
13 addition to that project, the losses of population, we also have another
14 project called "oral history," also "the monitoring of case -- of legal
15 proceedings." I believe that you know that the state court has started
16 operating in Bosnia with a special focus on war crimes. We want to
17 monitor the work of that institution.
18 So the entire work of the research and documentation centre will
19 have a number of aspects. In addition to that, we have established close
20 cooperation with two similar documentation centres in Belgrade and in
21 Zagreb. In Belgrade, this is the fund for humanitarian law and in Zagreb
22 the centre for facing the past. We want to create the environment in the
23 entire region which would serve as a forum for open discussion of all the
24 war crimes. We want to create such an atmosphere in which potential
25 witnesses who have never spoken to anybody come forward, talk about their
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 experiences. We want to eliminate the cases of manipulation with a
2 number of facts in our area. We want to talk through facts and through
3 court decisions that have been handed down before this Tribunal but also
4 before local courts.
5 Q. Mr. Tokaca, you describe now the -- in detail the purpose of the
6 establishment of this centre. I would like to focus on this project
7 called population losses. Did you set up also or created a database by
8 working in the research and documentation centrum?
9 A. That was a precondition for such a complex research. We set up a
10 very modern and quality database in which we stored everything that
11 resulted from our research. We wanted to find every individual victim
12 and explain their destiny, irrespective of the fact whether they were
13 civilians, whether they were soldiers, irrespective of their religious,
14 ethnic, professional or social affiliation. This is what we were not
15 interested in. We focussed on the victims. We wanted to find as much
16 information as possible as to how that victim became victim in the first
18 Q. So if -- if I understand correctly, you are collecting
19 information not only on crimes committed against Bosniaks, but also
20 crimes committed against Serbs and Croats. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 MS. RICHTEROVA: With the Court's permission, I would like to ask
23 Mr. Tokaca just briefly introduce his database showing the data he is
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There has been a request by the witness could
1 use a laptop computer. The Chamber has said that as long as it's
2 perfectly clear what exactly he consults, that it would be no problem.
3 If the witness introduces that database, how will this -- I don't take it
4 that the witness will give his laptop to us at the end of his testimony
5 of Court. How is this going to be tendered into evidence, the
6 information that he gives?
7 MS. RICHTEROVA: In effect, I only wanted to explain to the
8 Judges how -- how the research centrum works.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MS. RICHTEROVA: What kind of data he is using. It's nothing
11 else than to assist the Judges to understand the database. We don't seek
12 to tender the database into evidence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that some of the charts you'll present
14 later are taken from that database?
15 MS. RICHTEROVA: That's correct, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So then it's yes. And I take it that you're not
17 going to explain it to us but that the witness is going to explain it to
19 Mr. Josse.
20 MR. JOSSE: As Your Honour knows, we've been forewarned of this
21 and we have no objection.
22 MS. RICHTEROVA:
23 Q. Mr. Tokaca, if we press one of these buttons, which I don't
24 know which we do -- computer.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 MS. RICHTEROVA:
2 Q. Can you explain to the Judges what files can be found in your
4 A. Considering the amount of time that this would take up, I would
5 just like to make it possible for you to appreciate the method we use
6 when setting up the entire project.
7 Here on the screen you can see a whole range of lists and figures
8 with data and I'm going to show you about religious affiliation and then
9 it refers to the ethnicity of the victims that we have seen in the course
10 of this research.
11 Then there is a reference once again to ethnic groups and
12 municipalities. And we're talking about 112 municipalities in Bosnia and
13 Herzegovina and the source of these documents used. Here you've got a
14 whole range of different lists of institutions, individuals, et cetera.
15 We're talking about 400 --
16 Q. Mr. Tokaca, can you slow down --
17 A. I do apologise. So it is a whole range of different sources of
18 information that we have been using because it is extremely important for
19 us to try when it comes to each and every victim and dead person to
20 explain the circumstances of their death. And in item 5, we have an
21 indication of the way in which people were killed and then different
22 types of documents, videos, written documents, questionnaires, newspaper
23 articles, photos, tapes, and databases from different government and
24 non-governmental institutions that we all use in order to be able to
25 compare the data.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Can I ask you to slow down, because you're
2 developing a speed which is difficult for the interpreters.
3 THE WITNESS: [In English] Okay.
4 [Interpretation] I do understand.
5 So in the end we've got different types of documents that we are
6 using here. In the end 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. You can see that there is a
7 system of clarification of data on a legal basis. We've been using it,
8 as I told you, in order to make sure that every single piece of
9 information that we use, in statements, in different questionnaires, in
10 databases, so that we can classify it all properly and that makes it
11 easier for us to retrieve that information if we need it later on. I did
12 mention that we use the system which is enshrined in the Geneva
13 Convention and in other rules and regulations of international
14 humanitarian law. And you can see we've got five categories -- that is
15 to say six categories here and we're talking about protected individuals
16 and so on and so forth. I don't want to be too long-winded, but I would
17 just like to open the key part.
18 [In English] It's too fast?
19 JUDGE ORIE: You really have to slow down. It's --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm doing my best, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps, Ms. Richterova, perhaps you take a
22 bit more lead --
23 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm trying, but --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I know.
25 THE WITNESS: [In English] Okay.
1 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, I wouldn't say that the
2 methodology is not important, but this Chamber has been provided with the
3 Milosevic testimony and it noted that approximately 80 per cent was the
4 methods used and the quality of the work, but not much on what the work
5 resulted in. So of course that's -- that's something that the Chamber is
6 interested in.
7 MS. RICHTEROVA: I understand and in fact I intended to make it a
8 little bit shorter, but I will try now --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do it the following way. I take it that
10 you've familiarised yourself with it.
11 Ms. Richterova will put questions to you. If you could give
12 short answers and wait for the next question because it's difficult and
13 you're not the only one who has problems with it.
14 Please proceed, Ms. Richterova.
15 MS. RICHTEROVA:
16 Q. Mr. Tokaca, because we are focussing on people killed and missing
17 and you also prepared the charts which we will be discussing in a short
18 -- shortly, I only want you to explain to the Judges the way how you
19 avoid duplications which always happen when creating a database and
20 inputting information. If you could very briefly show the relevant file
21 and explain in a few sentences how you avoid duplications.
22 A. It was one of the extremely complex issues that we had to solve
23 in the course of this research. Before I give you an answer, it is very,
24 very important to give you the overall context and explain why we had to
25 do that and both this Court and anyone else investigating war crimes will
1 know that in an entire region there had been a great deal of manipulation
2 with figures and very imprecise assessments of the number of victims.
3 All that has been misused and abused in a number of ways, and so it was
4 our intention throughout this project to arrive at an as accurate number
5 as possible, but not just the number but the identity of victims.
6 In the course of that process it used to happen that there was
7 indeed a great deal of duplication when it came to the names of victims
8 because the victims names came from a whole range of sources and
9 sometimes there was duplication even coming from one and the same source.
10 So it was one of the key tasks that we had to complete. Let me just
11 quote one example so I can show you how we did it.
12 For example, column 1 to the left where you see my arrow now, it
13 refers to possible sources of data and here you have different
14 indications and different sources of data that we used. Thereupon in
15 column A you've got the X here. These are the victims in our database
16 that we qualify "active" and they're the only ones that we consider
17 because everything is either duplication or indications which are not
18 supported by sufficient proof, data, that would make it sufficiently
19 convincing from our point of view to think that it is a victim that has
20 actually died. For example, Abaza Muhamed. I'm showing you the arrow.
21 Q. Mr. Tokaca, you said the word "active." If an entry is active,
22 what criteria this entry has to fulfil?
23 A. When we talk about so-called active entries means that we have
24 more than 250.000 names in our database. In order to determine what
25 data, what entries are considered active, as you can see out of three
1 names, out of a total of three, we opt for a name which is supported by
2 the most complete data. In this case, the example is Mr. Abaza Muhamed.
3 Even though it is quite clear that there is his father here, Arif, and
4 you've got the same name four times over and the same year of birth three
5 times, 1949. So we've got a couple of repetitions of this name and
6 family name in this database and we opted for this particular X because
7 it provides us with the most complete set of data with reference to this
8 same person. So by that token we've managed to eliminate from the
9 database three names which represent duplications. In the same way we've
10 tried to eliminate all the other similar cases from the database, that is
11 to say having the repetition in different checks and forms because that
12 would give us a different total.
13 The X that you referred to is the key indication which means that
14 in the sum total this is the final data. For example, we have 150.000
15 names in the database. These 90.000 that are marked by X are the
16 so-called active entries and we consider them to be correct, or -- in
17 other words we consider those to be the relevant data.
18 Q. I think this was sufficiently explained. And I would like you
19 now to have a look at the charts.
20 MS. RICHTEROVA: I don't know whether the witness was provided
21 with the charts and the Judges.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the chart would be -- and let me just
23 see what you called the chart, Ms. Richterova --
24 MS. RICHTEROVA: It's the colour version of chart and drafts.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's the one which goes through the
1 municipalities and -- yes. And it goes from 3869 to 4053. Yes. That's
2 clear. That would be number ...
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that chart which is referred to of
4 the killed and missing Bosnian civilians in 1992 will be prosecution
5 exhibit 857.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Yes, I see that there's
7 no translation, Ms. Richterova --
8 MS. RICHTEROVA: We will provide the translation of the one of
9 the charts, but it's very self-explanatory and we will ask the witness to
10 explain exactly what the chart and the word means.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Just to see if we can cut that short and save time.
12 MS. RICHTEROVA: I -- sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Just looking at the front page, it seems that it is
14 about civilians in 1992, that is split up in 12 months. That on the
15 chart we see at -- where it starts with one -- from one to two should
16 then be January, from 2 until 3 should be February. This also explains
17 why we go from 12 to 13 because that's the whole of the month --
18 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- of December. Then I see Ubijeni and Nestali,
20 which seems to be -- Ubijeni the ones killed and Nestali the ones
21 missing. We can get that from other sources. These are numbers that are
22 totalled at the end. This is about Nestali. The second page would be
23 about Bijeljina. And then one of the things that perhaps needed so more
24 explanation is at the bottom it says "nacionalna struktura po popisu
25 1991." Is that the -- the 1991 census, how people reported their
1 nationality. That would be on the first line Croats, on the second
2 Bosniaks or Bosnians, on the third line Serbians, on the fourth line
3 Yugoslavians, and then on the fifth line, "ostali" would be foreigners?
4 Could I just check that with you, Witness, ostali.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Others.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, others.
7 Then I see on the chart itself which is a bit of a pity that the
8 -- the ones killed, if there are more who are missing then suddenly the
9 line indicating those killed disappears, is hidden by the numbers of
10 those missing. That's of course a consequence of using this pattern. We
11 see it on the top -- we see still the numbers. But on the bottom the
12 blue disappears behind the red. Yes. A little bit less of colour could
13 have given us also a graphic insight. Does this explain more or less
14 what such a page says?
15 Yes. Ms. Richterova, please add whatever, but just looking at it
16 not being a jury but professional Judges it might be more efficient to
17 see what we already understand from what we see and then you add whatever
18 we might not have understood.
19 MS. RICHTEROVA: I agree with Your Honour because I think these
20 charts are self-explanatory. I have only a few questions. The first is:
21 Q. You put titles "killed" and "missing." How did you set criteria
22 who would be put into a category of killed and who would be put into a
23 category of missing?
24 A. All persons whose identity has been established have been placed
25 into the category of the killed. As to any persons that we are still
1 searching for we don't know where certain body parts or entire bodies
2 might be are still in the category of those who disappeared. So that was
3 the basic key criterion as to why we've got these two categories here,
4 killed, once the identity of the victim is known and has been
6 Q. You said "once the identity of the person was established." Do
7 you need to input into your database a date of death in order the person
8 would be put in the category of killed?
9 A. Precisely. The entire questionnaire includes a whole range of
10 data with regard to each individual victim, name and surname, place of
11 residence, the father's name, the date of death, the place of death, and
12 an exact location as to where the body had been buried.
13 Q. So in fact when creating this chart, have you eliminated any data
14 from your database?
15 A. Yes, it was indispensable because for many people we still don't
16 know the exact date of death. So we could only have this sort of table
17 with reference to those people where we at least know the month and the
18 year of their death so that you can have all these indications as
19 indicated in these tables. In order to have that, you at least have to
20 have the month and the year of death, otherwise we wouldn't have been
21 able to compile these tables.
22 Q. If you do not have this kind of information, what do you do with
23 the data?
24 A. We've dropped that data from these tables. Let me just tell the
25 Court that this is not final data. This is simply indicative data as to
1 a certain phenomenon, that is to say the phenomenon of killing people and
2 having people disappear in a certain area and over a certain period of
3 time. This is an ongoing process. I don't expect any major changes, but
4 there will be changes in terms of figures. As you add new data into the
5 database, the figures will change but this is just an indicative set of
6 data with regard to the killing of people in a given area over a certain
7 period of time.
8 Q. I would like to go to the chart for the municipality of Foca. It
9 is the fourth chart with the ERN 0422-3872. And you mentioned that in
10 this chart is an error. Can you explain -- can you point which error
11 occurred in this chart?
12 A. Certainly. Whilst preparing for this testimony I checked the
13 database once again, and -- I mean it's an endless task basically, but it
14 is particularly important for me to point this out. Number 33 in the
15 first column -- I can't really say that it is a mistake because all those
16 people had indeed been killed. However, if we did not know the exact
17 date, the data will nevertheless have to be included in the system. And
18 we are talking about 33 people who were indeed killed in 1992, but we
19 don't have any more specific information about their killings. So that's
20 why we entered the 1st of January, 1992, for all these people and that's
21 why they've cropped up in this table and that's why I've asked you to
22 drop those 33 people from that table. That's my first point.
23 In column number 6 where the reference is to 201, 201 people
24 killed. I came across one man whose family name read Masic in one place
25 and somewhere else Mesic. And according to our system we found that it
1 was a kind of duplication. However, those cases are extremely rare.
2 So this is why I've warned you. Just to let you know that in as
3 far as these tables are concerned we will make some minor changes, no
4 major changes. But even as they currently stand they are quite reliable
5 and they firmly confirm a certain phenomenon.
6 Secondly, you've got numbers matched by names and family names,
7 plus extra data. So these are not simply figures; these are figures
8 behind which we've got names and surnames of individual people. And here
9 in the case of Foca, for example, you can see what happened and over what
10 period of time.
11 Q. Based on this chart, were you able to form any conclusion in
12 relation to people killed and missing?
13 A. Could I just ask you to allow me to make another point before I
14 answer this question. I think it's quite essential for the purposes of
15 the Court. In 1996 for the UN committee led my Mr. Manfred Novak on the
16 people who disappeared, I did a task for them, a project for them, on the
17 basis similar graphs. And that's what gave me the idea to continue
18 applying the same method and including people who were killed as well.
19 Those graphs at the time were rather interesting and they almost fully
20 overlapped with what I managed to draw up ten years later. I submitted
21 that study to the Court and you may use it as you see fit.
22 But basically, all the graphs that I submitted to you, starting
23 with Nevesinja, Bijeljina, and so on and so forth basically indicate the
24 appearance of a phenomenon in a very short period of time. It mostly
25 happened within four months of 1992, people being killed, people
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 disappearing. You've noticed it probably, but maybe we should have used
2 different types of graphs. But there is total overlap of people being
3 killed, people disappearing. So all this tallies completely. And if we
4 talk in terms of the time scale in Foca, for example, it all took place
5 between April and August. So it is a very short period of time,
7 Q. I also would like to ask you -- now we were -- a minute ago we
8 were describing the difference between killed and missing. You also
9 provided a list or chart in which you distinguished - and we can see it
10 also in your database - you distinguished between civilians and soldiers.
11 What are the criteria using and inputting this type of information? What
12 is the source of information?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Richterova, are you moving to another exhibit
14 or --
15 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes. I'm --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Should we then perhaps --
17 MS. RICHTEROVA: We can do it now before the witness answers the
19 JUDGE ORIE: Make that clear, yes.
20 That would be a document without ERN numbers, I take it.
21 MS. RICHTEROVA: We are awaiting the ERN. I would like to use
22 the one I think we provided you one version which has English unofficial
23 translation attached to always relevant B/C/S page.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would love to say how many pages there are,
25 put since it is all 1 out of 1 I would have to count them all. It's the
1 IDC research documentation centre documents.
2 MS. RICHTEROVA: There are altogether 28 pages, 14 English, 14
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Richterova.
5 Mr. Registrar, that would be?
6 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Prosecution Exhibit P858.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Before we move to that, Ms. Richterova, would you
8 allow me one or two questions to the witness.
9 I saw that you highlighted in yellow on -- the months 4, 5, 6 in
10 the year 1992. And then suddenly in Kalinovnik month 7 is included as
11 far as killings are concerned. Has this a specific reason or is it just
12 a mistake?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This was just for me. I
14 wanted to mark the things that I have spoken about. For example, in
15 Nevesinje you can see that the yellow colour just remained as an internal
16 marking. It has got nothing whatsoever to do with any relevant data. I
17 just used this yellow marking temporarily and I didn't have the time to
18 erase it. There are even some graphs where there's no yellow colour. In
19 haste as I was preparing for this testimony, I just omitted removing this
20 yellow colour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's -- so it has no meaning. Then one other
22 question. The top always indicates what municipality we're dealing with,
23 and it also say Bosnaci. Does that mean that we are just -- that these
24 -- these data only concern Bosnians in the sense of -- well, we have
25 heard a lot of words, Bosniaks, very often put at the same level. But I
1 take it that you'd rather not use that word Muslims. But at least
2 Bosnian -- non-Serb Bosnians. Is that -- non-Serb, non-Croat, or is
3 everyone included?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I'm using the official
5 name for the ethnic group called Bosniaks in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
6 This is a constitutional category and I can't call people by any other
7 name. There is another term in terminology which is not legitimate.
8 Sometimes these people are referred to as Muslims or Bosnian Muslims. In
9 this case they are ethnic Bosniaks. They are not Serbs, they are not
10 Croats, they are not others, they are ethnic Bosniaks. As the Prosecutor
11 said, we can produce such tables for any other ethnic group in Bosnia and
12 Herzegovina which will depend on the needs of this Tribunal.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It's just to be fully aware of what these data are
15 Please proceed, Ms. --
16 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can I have one more thing regarding this chart.
17 It's a chart with ERN number 0422-3881. It says Doboj Samac.
18 Q. And can Mr. Tokaca inform me --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- that it was an error. What is the correct title of this
22 A. Doboj.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honour, if I may
25 take a moment of your time. Since the Honourable Judge asked me, I would
1 like to say that there are two graphs here that I have submitted. In one
2 of them there are Croats in Modrica and in Kotor Varos. This is the only
3 exception to the whole group. This graph should be here. This is 04 --
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the number.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kotor Varos, and you see here
6 Bosniaks --
7 MS. RICHTEROVA: The ERN number is 0422-4045. It is a little bit
8 behind --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see it's split up Kotor Varos -- not split
10 up, but it gives two graphs and data, one for Bosniaks and one for
11 Croats. Yes, that's good.
12 MS. RICHTEROVA:
13 Q. If we go back to the other exhibit --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, P858.
15 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can the witness be provided.
16 It is only show and the witness can explain very briefly what
17 kind of data or information can be -- can be obtained from his database.
18 If we take the page number 1 which is entitled -- which title is "Total
19 Number of Those Killed and Missing During the War Based of Cause of
20 Death," we can see --
21 And I am referring to the municipality of Bratunac so that we are
22 talking about the same -- same chart or list.
23 Q. So we can see that in this -- are you with me, Mr. Tokaca? We
24 can see here that you put Bosniaks and Serbs. And again, we have
25 "killed," "missing," "unknown," and "total number." This total number
1 here which is 3.469, for what period -- which period of time?
2 A. All the data here covered the period between 1992 and 1995. This
3 chart depicting the total number of killed and missing of 3.469 names for
4 the municipality of Bratunac covers the period between 1992 and 1995.
5 The first column refers to the killed people of Bosniak and Serb origin.
6 In this table we do not go into the status of people during the war,
7 whether they were civilians or soldiers. The fact is that they were
8 killed. The next column covers the missing persons, and the following
9 one covers the unknown circumstances of death. We also covered such
10 situations in which we did not know at all what happened to the person.
11 If you look at the next table, the table of the total number of killed
12 segregated into the categories of whether they were soldiers or
13 civilians, the data is somewhat different. However, the total is almost
14 the same; it differs by one name. You have civilians in vertical
15 columns, the ethnic structure is the same, and also you have soldiers.
16 Q. Mr. --
17 A. Just a moment, please. Again, we do not know the status of nine
18 Bosniaks and we do -- did not know for 28 Serbs whether they were
19 civilians or soldiers. So the last column covers the status of these
20 people during the war.
21 Q. And I would like to stop here because here I would like you to
22 explain. How do you set criteria for date -- for calling someone
23 civilian and calling someone a soldier?
24 A. When you collect data and when you receive data on every
25 individual victim, we receive those from various sources. We receive
1 data from official sources, the ministry of defence, various
2 institutions. Amongst that data we would come across the status of the
3 person during the war. That was reliable information as to whether they
4 were soldiers or civilians. Furthermore, we did not always trust the
5 information that we had received. We sought additional information about
6 the status of these individuals. For every person we wanted to be sure
7 what their status was. We went as far as to visit the cemeteries, we
8 took photographs of the places where they were buried. In many of those
9 photographs, there are headstones depicting the names of the people.
10 There is a number of sources of information based on which you can
11 establish whether the person was killed as a civilian or as a soldier, in
12 other words what their status was at the moment of their death.
13 Q. And in case you cannot establish whether the person was civilian
14 or soldier, what is your procedure?
15 A. As you can see in the table, we then categorised them into the
16 category status "unknown." We were sometimes not absolutely certain.
17 According to some records, one person was a civilian and that same person
18 was a soldier. When we could not decide what the truth was, we would put
19 such a person under the category "status unknown," and status in this
20 case refers to their status during the war at the moment of death.
21 Q. And if I go back to the Exhibit P857 when we have this chart from
22 various municipalities and you put title "civilians," did you -- did you
23 exclude those status was unknown?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Then we can -- we don't need to go to any further details
1 regarding this document.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I would have a few questions on it. First, on the
3 first page I see total number of those killed and missing during the war
4 based on the cause of death. Well, first of all, I do not see any
5 information about the cause of death. Is that correct? It says whether
6 someone died or whether someone is missing or -- but it doesn't say
7 anything about the cause of death. Is that a mistake or is that a
8 translation problem?
9 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, it is an exact translation and --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then could perhaps the witness please slowly read
11 the top of the first page where it says -- I think it's -- forgive my
12 pronunciation, [B/C/S spoken]. Could you read that line so that the
13 interpreters could translate that --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Shall I read the Bosnian version?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The table that covers the
17 municipality of Bratunac. The total number of killed and missing
18 according to the way they disappeared. This is the way they were
19 disappeared. Either they were killed or they went missing. And there
20 are numbers for Bosniaks, for the killed, for the missing.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it seems to be a translation error, Ms.
22 Richterova. That's one.
23 The second question I would have is on the second one where it
24 reads "Total Number of Those Killed and Missing During the War Based on
25 Which Army They Belonged to." Now, I see that a lot of civilians, that's
1 2.037 civilians belonged to the Bosnian army and 105 civilians belonged
2 to the Serbian army. That's at least what it says. Yes --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid you're not right, Your
4 Honour. Can you look at the two vertical columns. On the left-hand side
5 let me just first tell you that the name of the table in Bosnian. "The
6 Total Number of Killed and Missing According to the Status, the Civilian
7 Or Military Status." The first column covers civilians. The number that
8 you read out is civilians, Bosnian and Serbian civilians. The next
9 column --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's -- that's perfectly clear. Then we have
11 again a translation error here. Could you slowly read the title above
12 this -- these data which starts with [B/C/S spoken]. Could you read that
13 line just slowly so that the interpreters can translate it to us.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The Total Number of Killed and
15 Missing." I believe that it would be better for me to "add according to
16 their military affiliation."
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please -- yes, yes. It's just a
18 translation error. It's perfectly clear that -- yes. And military
19 affiliation as far as civilians are concerned is to what - how to say
20 that - to what group they belonged, not saying that they were military
21 but they are at the site of where the militaries were -- yes. Okay.
22 That's clear.
23 Could you please take care that we get the right translations --
24 MS. RICHTEROVA: Of course, Your Honour. I apologise and as I
25 stated at the beginning it is really an unofficial translation prepared
1 for the purposes of today's session because we didn't have time to obtain
2 an official translation.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me just -- one second. Yes. If we are
4 talking about the municipality of Bratunac, are we talking about those
5 who were killed in Bratunac or those who resided in Bratunac before --
6 and got killed or went missing?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this case we are talking about
8 those persons who resided in the municipality of Bratunac in 1992.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
10 Yes, Judge Hanoteau has a question for you as well.
11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I have not understood something;
12 that's why I would like to ask you about the municipality of Bratunac.
13 When you say "civilians, Bosniaks and Serbs," and you mention the
14 figures, are these people who did not have anything to do with the army,
15 with the military? Am I right in thinking that?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were civilians and this
17 is what it says here.
18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And now for the soldiers, the
19 Bosniaks and the Serb soldiers mentioned here. Were these soldiers who
20 resided in Bratunac or were they soldiers who were killed in Bratunac?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those were soldiers who resided in
22 Bratunac and who had their address, residence, in Bratunac in the year
24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Were they killed in Bratunac?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not all killed in
1 Bratunac, probably. They could have been killed elsewhere. However,
2 there are two criteria for our research and I could go into great length
3 in subanalysing these graphs. In this case we were not interested in
4 soldiers more or less. There is also the category of the location of
5 death. However, the analysis that we have done so far for civilians,
6 they all show the almost total overlapping of the place of death and the
7 place of residence. In the case of soldiers, this will differ to a
8 certain extent. Their place of residence --
9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So these persons that feature in
10 these tables are persons who resided in Bratunac but there's nothing to
11 say that they were killed in Bratunac. And the same is true of the
12 civilians and of the soldiers. I apologise.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, you're not right.
14 These graphs that you are looking at are -- all refer to civilians. The
15 graphs only cover civilians. Soldiers were never the subject of our
16 analysis. We have not analysed where they were killed. This should be
17 the subject of a special analysis for us to see about the soldiers --
18 1.289 soldiers, to analyse where they were killed, whether they were
19 killed in Bratunac or elsewhere. But this would be a special, a separate
20 analysis if we wanted to do that.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Canivell has a question for you as well.
22 JUDGE CANIVELL: [Interpretation] Witness, could you provide us
23 with the following information. Could you give us the figures for all
24 the municipalities that are covered by the map.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I didn't understand
1 your question. The total number of victims in these charts?
2 JUDGE CANIVELL: [Interpretation] Could you indicate -- You've
3 told us about Bratunac. Could you provide us with figures covering all
4 the other places that are marked by the colour blue on -- in your map
5 that is at the front of your documentation in the same way you have
6 provided us with information for the municipality of Bratunac.
7 MS. RICHTEROVA: Maybe I can assist --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MS. RICHTEROVA: -- to the witness. We have a map and so I would
10 like Mr. Usher to show the --
11 JUDGE ORIE: There may be some confusion. The map has not yet
12 been presented to the witness. Are you going to deal with that anyhow,
13 Ms. Richterova, the totals?
14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes. I wanted to --
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE CANIVELL: [Interpretation] I apologise. The Prosecutor is
17 going to take care of that, so there's no need for you to answer my
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Richterova, I'm going to put questions to the
20 witness on matters you've discussed already.
21 It's not entirely clear how someone can be unknown in terms of
22 his status of being missing or killed. I mean, how could there ever be
23 -- either you have established, I do understand, on the basis of the
24 remains of that person that he was killed. If he's not -- if his body
25 has not been found or identified, is he missing or is he not missing? I
1 mean, what's -- what could create the doubt there?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no doubt when it comes to
3 the killed or the missing. Are you confused by the table in which you
4 see --
5 JUDGE ORIE: No, I see. It's uncertain -- no, in that -- no, I'm
6 mixing up two matters. Yes, I apologise for that. I find that you were
7 able beyond doubt, because otherwise unknown -- you would say if there's
8 doubt you would categorise them as "unknown." On numbers of as much as
9 approximately 3.000, you are able to establish -- well, to such a
10 certainty, to such a level of certainty on, well let's say, 99 and a half
11 per cent whether they were civilians or soldiers. I'm asking this
12 because, of course, in this Tribunal we know that it's very, very often
13 not that easy to establish whether someone was a soldier, was a
14 combatant, carried arms, even if not fully dressed in a uniform. So what
15 surprises me is the percentage in which you could draw a clear conclusion
16 and did not have to categorise that person as unknown as to his civilian
17 or military status.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This percentage is indeed very
19 small here. In Bratunac we were not sure only about the military status
20 of 37 people. There are very well-organised records about the
21 affiliation of people to certain military formations. This column
22 covering soldiers can be analysed and broken down in all the military
23 formations that were active in Bosnia and Herzegovina and we can provide
24 all the details. For the purpose of this particular case, I have
25 focussed on civilians. Whatever you can see here, you can be sure that
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the percentage of the reliability on the status of civilians is very
2 high. It is absolutely impossible that any of these people categorised
3 as civilians were also soldiers.
4 The only minor dilemma may remain with the soldiers. In our
5 research we have come across situations in which we had information that
6 a person was a civilian at the moment of death. And then subsequently
7 their status was changed into a different category, the category of
8 soldiers. Those are very rare situations. And to be honest, I have to
9 tell you those are the situations when people wanted to benefit from
10 their former status. In illegal way, they changed their status.
11 However, we are talking about a small percentage of such people, but also
12 it is up to the state organs to sort and deal with that.
13 We used a number of sources, we obtained information on whether a
14 person was a soldier, whether they wore uniform, whether they belonged to
15 a certain military formation, or whether they were civilians.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I come back to my first question because too
17 easily I said that I was confused. And I might be confused again on a
18 translation problem. May I take you to the first page where it said
19 total number of those killed and missing during the war. And the wrong
20 translation says "based on the cause of death," and we now understand
21 that that should be their status as missing or killed.
22 Now, on that first page we see that for the Serbians you have 616
23 killed and you have 13 missing.
24 Ms. Richterova, you see in the translation that it's wrongly
25 translated it says "civilians and soldiers." That's not what the
1 original says. The original says "killed or missing."
2 Now you have one "unknown." So I come back to my question. How
3 do you establish whether it's unknown that someone -- you could not
4 establish that he's killed, you could not establish that he's missing.
5 What do I have to understand by that?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have two interpretations for this
7 number. There are two reasons. The first one is a mistake, and the
8 second one is the fact that the people appeared outside the period of
9 1992 or 1995. I can check the name of that person and then I can provide
10 you with more accurate explanation as to how come this person appears in
11 this category as unknown. It is impossible for this person to appear in
12 this category as unknown. It is absolutely impossible.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If it's a mistake we don't have to hear about
14 it. If it's not a mistake and you don't come up with anything else, then
15 we'd like to hear. If it is a mistake or if it is someone outside the
16 period, then of course he should not be in the database, because the
17 database is limited to, as you said, 1992-1995.
18 Ms. Richterova, please proceed -- I'm looking at the clock as
19 well. Could you give us an indication how much more time you would need
20 if you would not be interrupted and disturbed by the Bench.
21 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I'll be finished within 10 minutes
22 after the break.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will resume at 11.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Richterova, please proceed.
2 MS. RICHTEROVA:
3 Q. Mr. Tokaca, I have final questions to you. You have a map in
4 front of you in -- yes, this one --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could that be assigned an exhibit number, Ms.
6 Richterova, if you would like to tender that.
7 MS. RICHTEROVA: I don't intend to tender this map --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
9 MS. RICHTEROVA: It's just to assist --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then we need no number. Please proceed.
11 MS. RICHTEROVA:
12 Q. And you can see the municipalities which are covered in the
13 indictment; however, you produced these charts for lesser municipalities.
14 But are you still able to assist the Judges and tell them approximately
15 the total number of people killed and that got missing during the year
16 1992 in these municipalities? And I don't expect that you will provide
17 an exact number.
18 A. You mean the ones that I did not include in these graphs or do
19 you mean all those that you can see here --
20 Q. I mean --
21 A. Because --
22 Q. I mean all you can see there. And I'm asking this question based
23 on your knowledge and based on your work for this research centrum. So
24 you are dealing with these figures on a daily basis, as far as I
1 A. I deal with this on a daily basis, but I've prepared these graphs
2 in a detailed manner, basically. They refer to one group and I've got
3 the latest data here but only divided by municipalities and there are no
4 references to the national ethnic make-up of victims. So if we take it
5 from the east, for Bijeljina I've got the overall number at this present
6 moment. We've got 1.237 [as interpreted] people who were either killed
7 or disappeared and -- 127 [as interpreted] had been killed and 110 [as
8 interpreted] disappeared. But at the moment I can't tell you what the
9 ethnic make-up is.
10 Q. If we take -- let's start with these 25 charts which you prepared
11 for this trial. In these charts you focussed on killed and missing
12 Bosniaks. Can you assist the Judges, and it is really a pure
13 mathematics, how many Bosniaks were killed or got missing based on the
14 findings? If we are referring to this chart -- to these charts.
15 A. In these graphs we've got more than 10.000 names. So if we don't
16 go any further than that, if we don't make any assumptions outside that
17 overall number. So I'd just like to stick to the graphs I've got here
18 and if you make a sum total it's about 10.000 and something. So for
19 those 20-something municipalities. And that's what I can talk about at
20 the present moment. Obviously the overall number is much greater than
21 that, but I believe that the main point of my testimony is not to give
22 you the exact figure, and I'm unable to do so at the present moment at
23 any rate. But when it comes to these graphs here, I can state all that
24 with a great degree of certainty. It's more than 10.000 names and it, I
25 believe, paints a sufficiently clear picture of the events at that period
1 of time.
2 Q. So when you are saying 10 -- more than 10.000 names, we can
3 understand that it is more than 10.000 of killed and missing people in 25
4 municipalities in the year 1992. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes, more than 10.000 killed or those who disappeared, civilians,
6 Bosnians, between -- in that period in 1992.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the dates once
9 MS. RICHTEROVA:
10 Q. Can you please repeat the dates because the interpreter didn't
11 catch it.
12 A. More than 10.000 people of Bosniak nationality in the period
13 between April and the end of 1992.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MS. RICHTEROVA: I do not have any further questions.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Richterova.
17 Mr. Josse, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
18 MR. JOSSE: I am, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: But perhaps I have one question before I give you an
20 opportunity to do so.
21 Witness, I'd like to ask you the following: If we look at the
22 Bratunac figures you've given to us then it appears that in 1995 that we
23 certainly have a high number of civilians compared to the other years and
24 compared to the -- compared to the -- especially Bosnians. Could you
25 give us an explanation for this almost 1.600 that are reported in 1995.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. I don't seem to have
2 that particular graph or table in front of me. I'm not very sure what
3 you're referring to.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You see in what is now Exhibit P858, which is
5 Bratunac in the various ways it is split up, where you have a table which
6 is called "Total Number of Those Missing and Killed Based on Year of the
7 Event," then you have broken it down. 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, and 1995
8 gives a relatively high number. Do you have an explanation for that?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Your Honour, I was
10 looking at the wrong table. I've got the one you mean in front of me.
11 So this is the overall number of those killed and who disappeared
12 according to each individual year from 1992 through to 1995. For the
13 year 1995 you've got 1.572 civilians killed, seven soldiers, and 291
14 where we don't know their status. My explanation is that those were
15 probably civilians who fled from Bratunac in the direction of Srebrenica
16 in the period of time between -- or after 1992 and who found themselves
17 there at the time of the Srebrenica events in 1995. So those were the
18 people who found themselves in that particular geographical area.
19 Once we start carrying out a detailed analysis -- You were quite
20 right in asking this question as where these people had actually been
21 killed. We will be able to establish that correlation between the place
22 where people found themselves in 1992 and the place where they must have
23 been killed. Many of them could have been killed in Bratunac itself in
24 1992, but in the same way, many could have been killed in other places
25 including Srebrenica because the biggest wave of refugees went in the
1 direction of Srebrenica. So that would be a separate table, but it
2 doesn't actually change their status as to where they were living in
3 1992. And it was in this respect that we actually did two different
4 things, two different approaches, first of all their place of residence
5 in 1992 and afterwards what were the locations at which people could have
6 been killed afterwards. So this is a very specific analysis that we're
7 going to take a special interest in in the future, but we would basically
8 want to see what happened to those people: where they went, and at what
9 locations they were actually killed, because many of those were not just
10 refugees. For example there were situations in which people were
11 apprehended at one place and they were taken somewhere else and they were
12 executed somewhere else altogether, which is not a part of that region.
13 So my explanation for this in as far as Bratunac is concerned most of
14 those people 1.572, I'm not talking all of them, most of them were
15 actually executed during the events at Srebrenica in 1995.
16 JUDGE ORIE: This illustrates that the tables might not give the
17 final answer. It's not of direct relevance, since Srebrenica 1995 is
18 both territorially and in time beyond the scope of this -- of the case
19 against Mr. Krajisnik. But at the same time it's perhaps illustrative
20 for what the tables can tell us and what they cannot tell us.
21 Mr. Josse.
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Josse:
23 Q. Mr. Tokaca, your commission was set up on the 28th -- can you
24 hear me now. Your commission was set up on the 28th of April, 1992.
25 What was it called on that day?
1 A. State commission for the gathering of data on war crimes in
2 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
3 Q. Why on the 28th of April, 1992, was it given the title "war
5 A. Presumably, because the war started in the beginning of April.
6 Q. Yes. And what information had got back to you about what was
7 happening at that particular time? You personally, I mean.
8 A. Look, don't ask me questions about the decisions made by the
9 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I did a professional job. If you
10 ask me for my personal history, I spent the war in Sarajevo, and since
11 August --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tokaca, no one asks you about decisions taken by
13 the government. The question was: "And what information had got back to
14 you about what was happening at that particular time?"
15 So Mr. Josse wants to know what you learned about the events that
16 were going on at that time. He doesn't ask you to clarify a decision
17 taken by others. Would you please answer that question.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you just clarify that
19 question. What I need to know is whether you want me to tell you what
20 was my personal knowledge between April and August or as of the time when
21 I was taken on as the secretary of that commission.
22 MR. JOSSE:
23 Q. When did you become the secretary of the commission?
24 A. In August 1992.
25 Q. I see. All right. Well, I -- that's my misunderstanding. I
1 assumed you were involved from the start and I'll move on. In fact, I
2 was going to ask you where you spent 1992, but I think you begun to tell
3 us. I don't need to know exactly. You were in Sarajevo. Is that right?
4 A. Well, I was quite specific in my answer. I spent the entire war
5 in Sarajevo and the siege of Sarajevo as well. Officially I was
6 appointed in August. However, as early as May I was invited to do some
7 voluntary work in my professional capacity --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tokaca, please listen to the questions
9 carefully, answer them. You give additional information. If Mr. Josse
10 might like to hear that information, then he'll ask for it. If he would
11 like to hear other information, you'll listen to his next question and
12 provide him with the information that he's seeking. So the question was
13 whether it was right that you were in Sarajevo in 1992 and you affirmed
14 that you were.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.
16 MR. JOSSE:
17 Q. From the time you were employed by the commission, who paid you?
18 Which organisation paid you?
19 A. We were allocated funds from the state budget.
20 Q. And which state are we talking about, please, for the avoidance
21 of any doubt?
22 A. We're talking about the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as
23 far as I can tell.
24 Q. And when the war ended, you continued to be employed by the same
25 entity. Is that right?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And they employed you until relatively recently, from what you
3 told us.
4 A. Even today officially and professionally I'm a civil servant and
5 work at this international documentation centre is voluntary work I do so
6 it's nothing to do with the other.
7 Q. As far as you are concerned, you undertake your work in an
8 impartial manner. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Have allegations of ethnic bias ever been made against you or
11 your organisation? There are two questions there, really. Let's deal
12 with your organisation first of all.
13 A. I'm not aware of any such allegations. It may have happened. I
14 can't rule it out. But officially, on the part of any institution or
15 anything like that, I've never heard any comments as to any ethnical bias
16 on my part because everything we did we did with the intention to provide
17 answers to problems of crimes against victims, no matter who those
18 victims were in terms of their ethnic group. Of course you will
19 understand that considering the circumstances it was very difficult for
20 us to do the job no matter who the victim was. Sometimes it was outright
21 impossible. But you can see it on the basis of the names of victims. We
22 have actually recorded victims of all ethnic groups.
23 Q. So, Mr. Tokaca, at no meeting or in the course of your giving
24 evidence or at any stage in your professional life doing this job has
25 anyone ever accused you of ethnic bias. Is that what you're saying?
1 A. I've never been accused of that by anyone.
2 Q. Now, you have told us that your commission have taken statements
3 from 7.000 victims. Is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you give us the ethnic breakdown, please, of those 7.000
7 A. I really don't have that information. I can't give it to you.
8 But certainly there are people of different ethnic affiliations. A
9 couple of days ago I had a meeting with somebody -- I'm basically
10 interested in victims, you know, I'm not in the business of determining
11 their ethnic affiliation. I talk to anyone who wants to talk to me or to
12 people I find in the field. So I've never been interested in the ethnic
13 affiliation of any victims, so it really doesn't matter.
14 Q. Well, it may be my fault, Mr. Tokaca, but would you agree that in
15 the context of your work and your evidence to this Chamber, the ethnic
16 breakdown of the 7.000 people your organisation has spoken to is of
18 A. I really don't think that it is of any consequence in this
19 respect because I prepared to come here and in relation to Mr.
20 Krajisnik's indictment I wanted to come and explain what happened to
21 Bosniaks and Croats in certain municipalities. Had the Court invited me
22 to provide explanations for further ethnic groups, I would have done that
23 as well on the basis of the data I've got available. So consequently, I
24 did not prepare to talk about 7.000 witnesses but about tens of thousand
25 victims. I'm talking about victims, not about people who gave testimony
1 about that. So maybe that is what you see as a problem.
2 Q. Again it may be obvious, but excuse me for asking it, but
3 presumably you do have an ethnic breakdown for the 7.000 statements you
4 have taken?
5 A. I don't at the moment, but if this Court wants me to do so, I can
6 do it. I had not prepared for that because I always looked at these
7 statements depending on their content and not about -- with regard to the
8 ethnic affiliation of the victims. As to who made the statements, I did
9 not think it was all that important.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tokaca, when you held those interviews, was it
11 written down somewhere what the ethnicity of your witnesses was?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, yes. But considering
13 our method --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just trying to find out whether this data would
15 be available, yes or no.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it would.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is that information in the database as well.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That data is indeed available and I
19 can make it available to this Court whenever you want me to.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear -- Mr. Josse, the data are available. If
21 you think it of sufficient importance, then we'll ask the witness to
22 provide them.
23 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
24 Q. You, Mr. Tokaca, are a civil servant. That's what you've told
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You treat victims in an even-handed manner. Is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You told us that you -- presumably you would not get involved in
5 the politics of your region at all.
6 A. What do you mean? Do you mean if I'm a member of a party or
8 Q. No I'm not asking you that, let me hastily add. Let me be
9 specific. You remember in 1999 a man called Goran Jelic [sic] stood
10 trial at this court for genocide?
11 A. Goran Jelisic?
12 Q. Goran Jelisic. Excuse my pronunciation.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You were asked about it Goran Jelisic.
14 MR. JOSSE: That's right.
15 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that when he was found not guilty of
16 genocide by the Trial Chamber who were trying him, you said: "I don't
17 see any explanation for this after all the witnesses and their
18 testifying; it makes me speechless."
19 A. Who did I say that to and when?
20 Q. Did you say it?
21 A. I can't remember. Can you remind me as to whom I'm supposed to
22 have said it and where?
23 Q. You said it to a journalist, I suggest.
24 A. Even assuming I had said that, I don't see a political attitude
25 there. It could have been my personal view, but it has nothing to do
1 with politics. I can have a personal opinion of anything whatsoever.
2 But final Court rulings are something which is final for me and you can't
3 argue against it.
4 Q. Two questions. First of all, Mr. Tokaca, did you say it? Yes,
5 no, don't remember?
6 A. I don't remember. I don't remember having said this in this
7 particular way.
8 Q. And will you accept that it would not be an appropriate thing for
9 you to say as the head of your commission?
10 A. It would have been inappropriate if I had said it this way, but I
11 don't know where I said it. Can you give me the name of the journalist
12 or the paper in which I stated that? I'd be -- I've given hundreds of
13 interviews. A lot of new journalists have called me and I'm available to
14 them at all times. And this sentence out of context does not seem
15 important to me. I always honoured all the Court rulings and I advocate
16 that all the Court rulings should be honoured and respected, and this is
17 what I stand by.
18 Q. Now, in terms of your sources of information, I want to ask you
19 specifically about a particular publication which I've got here. Let me
20 hand to you, and I have got copies for everyone else, a translation of a
21 book which is in Cyrillic. Is this document --
22 MR. JOSSE: Perhaps I could hand that out, Your Honour, if that
23 would help.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. Is it your intention to tender it or
25 would you rather wait for a second?
1 MR. JOSSE: I'm happy to tender this particular document which is
2 simply really an aid to me, giving a Latin version of the Cyrillic plus
3 an English translation.
4 Q. Perhaps if you read the first line which is in B/C/S, please, Mr.
5 Tokaca, and the interpreters will translate it.
6 A. "Miroslav Toholj, black book, the sufferings of Serbs in Bosnia
7 and Herzegovina between 1992 and 1995."
8 Q. And we can see it's been translated and we've got there the
9 publisher. Do you -- are you aware of that publication?
10 A. I've heard of this book.
11 Q. In what context have you heard of it?
12 A. Nothing special. I just know that it has been printed. I can
13 offer to you a host of books, a list of books written on the same subject
14 by different authors, the books that we have come by. What is the
15 context of all this?
16 MR. JOSSE: I am quite happy to --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tokaca --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid I have not understood
19 the question.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No one asked you -- Mr. Josse just wanted to know in
21 what context did you know it. Did you hear from it a friend, did you see
22 it in a bookshop, was your attention drawn to it. That's what he wants
23 to know. Was it discussed in a meeting. Just the context in which you
24 became aware of the existence of the book.
25 Perhaps I say another thing to you: It seems now and then that
1 when you answer questions that you tend to take a defensive position, as
2 if you would have to justify anything. There's no need to do that. Just
3 answer the questions that's just put.
4 So the question was: "In what context did you hear of this
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is an
7 exceptionally difficult question for me. An a daily basis I come by
8 hundreds of pieces of different information. We have a library of books
9 that we collect in different ways. It's very difficult for me to answer
10 a very specific question as to when and under what circumstances I heard
11 of Miroslav Toholj's book. I know that the book exists, but truth be
12 told I can't really tell you when I heard about the existence of this
13 book. This is what I would like you to understand. This is not the only
14 book that I heard of and it's very difficult for me to say when it was
15 that I first heard of this particular book.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Again, you take ten lines just to say that you don't
17 remember. It's -- of course, if you don't remember, just answer.
18 There's no problem. You don't have to explain to us why you don't
19 remember, unless specifically asked to do it. "Just you don't remember."
20 Mr. Josse, please proceed.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.
22 MR. JOSSE:
23 Q. I need your help, Mr. Tokaca. You've told us that lots of books
24 have been written in relation to the suffering of -- the undoubted
25 suffering let me hastily add, the suffering of the victims that you have
1 been dealing with. Tell us, a two-volume tome such as I have here
2 presumably is not common in this field. Am I right?
3 A. It is possible. It is quite possible. I don't know whether
4 you're right or not.
5 Q. From what you've told us -- sorry, let me deal with that. If you
6 don't know, Mr. Tokaca, who would be able to answer that question?
7 That's what you've done for over ten years, isn't it?
8 A. Yes, but that doesn't mean that I have to know everything.
9 That's why I'm involved in research in order to obtain as much
10 information as possible.
11 Q. And that is why, I suggest to you, it's surprising that this book
12 hasn't been considered and/or read by you, because you're involved in
14 A. I don't have to read every single book. There are other people
15 working with me who may have read this particular book. I myself have
17 Q. Have you any to suppose that this book is not accurate or not
19 A. I don't have any reason to doubt the contents of a book before I
20 have taken it in my own hands and read it myself.
21 Q. Right. I'll move on.
22 As far as you are concerned, you have dealt even-handedly,
23 therefore, with the different ethnic groups within Bosnia. Is that
25 A. As much as I could, providing the circumstances in place. I
1 researched as much as I could.
2 Q. Have you found the Serb community hesitant in dealing with you
3 and your commission?
4 A. To a certain extent, yes.
5 Q. And how, as scientifically as you can, do you think that has
6 hindered your research?
7 A. When you're involved in research then you have to look at all the
8 sides of a coin. You have to try and draw from a number of independent
9 sources available to you, governmental and non-governmental ones, the
10 information obtained from victims and eyewitnesses. You have to try and
11 complete the picture of the events you're trying to research. The way we
12 have always worked, especially in this new institution that I'm involved
13 with, people have become more and more prepared to cooperate with us,
14 even those from the Serbian community. During the war there were a lot
15 of restrictions. A lot of limitations is behind us. The level of trust
16 has since then increased not only among the Serbs but also amongst the
17 Croats and others. They now know that we are not biased, that we are
18 trying to carry out correct research, and we obtain information from all
19 the religious and ethnic communities. Our work is anything but over and
20 we will continue doing our work as best as we possibly can.
21 Q. Do you know of any other organisation that is doing this sort of
22 work in relation to Bosnia?
23 A. I can tell you that in the government and in -- amongst the
24 non-governmental institutions there are a lot of them. In the government
25 there is a commission for the quest for the missing and there is also a
1 commission in -- with the office in Banja Luka that is involved with the
2 missing persons. I don't know its full title. An institute is under
3 establishment in Sarajevo that would replace all the commissions that
4 have existed so far and a new institute should be involved in that. In
5 Belgrade there is a new institute for war crimes or a commission for the
6 similar title. There are also some NGOs that deal with the problem of
7 war crimes, of missing people. I'm primarily referring to the
8 associations of victims in Bosnia and Herzegovina. You have a number of
9 such organisations from Sarajevo, Banja Luka, and elsewhere. And there
10 are also professional NGOs that deal with war crimes like, for example,
11 the fund for humanitarian right in Belgrade or the Helsinki committee on
12 human rights, the Helsinki -- in Belgrade and Zagreb. In Bosnia and
13 Herzegovina -- our documentation and information centre has been active
14 for two years as a non-governmental organisation. In any case, the
15 structure of NGOs and governmental organisations is developing and there
16 are a host of institutions that deal with that matter in different ways.
17 Q. Do you get together with some or all of those organisations to
18 try and work out an effective, efficient, and accurate basis on which to
19 conduct your research so as to come up with some reliable statistics?
20 A. Yes. If you want me to go into details, I can tell you who my
21 contacts are with. I am familiar with all the associations of victims in
22 Bosnia and Herzegovina. I have spoken to them. A year ago we signed a
23 protocol on cooperation with Belgrade, Zagreb, and Sarajevo on regional
24 cooperation in the researching of war crimes. I mentioned that at the
25 beginning of my testimony. This is a normal communication that you have
1 to develop with a number of institutions if you want to obtain
2 information from different sources and to be a part of the network that
3 deals with the same problem.
4 So we're not talking here only about my contacts from
5 institutions in Bosnia and Herzegovina or from that region; I have
6 regular contacts with some organisations outside Bosnia and Herzegovina
7 with some international institutions that support our work. If you're
8 interested, I can tell you that those are the international commission
9 for international justice from New York and a number of other
10 institutions that have contacted us: Amnesty International, Helsinki
11 Watch, the Helsinki Committee on Human Rights from Sweden. There are a
12 number of institutions with whom we are trying to cooperate in order to
13 be able to work as best as we can based on a number of data that is
14 available to us.
15 Q. It's statistics that I'm asking you about because double
16 accounting - tell me if you understand what I mean - is a problem in your
17 work, isn't it?
18 JUDGE ORIE: The witness has testified already that that's a
19 problem. Please proceed.
20 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
21 Q. And you are liaising with these other organisations and trying to
22 eradicate that? That's really all I want to ask you.
23 A. All the contacts at all of the organisations are only our attempt
24 to have as many sources of information that would enable us to explain
25 what happened to the victims, to establish their identity, to obtain
1 photos. We have to collect thousands of photographs in order to restore
2 the victims' figure and face. We draw information from a number of
3 sources, not only from these organisations that I've mentioned, but we
4 also move around. We search for information that is hidden in the most
5 unusual places. You wouldn't even believe where this information can be
6 found. And in this way we also prevent the things that sometimes happen,
7 and that is that some names are mentioned in several places on several
8 occasions. And thus, we avoid multiplying or increasing the number of
9 victims unnecessarily.
10 Q. You chose as your Exhibit P858 the municipality of Bratunac. Why
11 did you choose that municipality?
12 MS. RICHTEROVA: I can -- I'm sorry to interrupt. It was not Mr.
13 Tokaca, it was me.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Tokaca could have told Mr. Josse. He
15 certainly would have been able to do that.
16 Ms. Richterova informs us that it was she rather than you who
17 made the choice for Bratunac. Is that correct?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for clarifying this issue.
20 Mr. Josse, please proceed.
21 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, give me one moment, please.
22 [Defence counsel confer]
23 MR. JOSSE:
24 Q. I think it's best if I do this with a broad proposition, but we
25 want to suggest to you that in fact in Bratunac your statistics are
1 simply wrong and more Serbs were killed in that municipality in 1992 than
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, may I ask you to reformulate your
4 question. It has become clear from the previous testimony of the witness
5 that his statistics do not say anything about where people were killed.
6 It's just about people registered in a certain place as residents, that
7 they were missing or killed. It's -- it has been clearly said by the
8 witness upon specific questions that where these persons were killed is
9 not part of these statistics. And your question specifically said: "And
10 more Serbs were killed in that municipality in 1992."
11 MR. JOSSE: That was my question.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. JOSSE: Again, could Your Honour give me a moment whilst I
14 take some instructions?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 [Defence counsel confer]
17 MR. JOSSE:
18 Q. Yes. The question I want to ask is this: Again, in the
19 municipality of Bratunac, we suggest that more Serb civilians were killed
20 in that municipality in 1992 than Bosniak civilians. Now, it may be that
21 you can't answer that, Mr. Tokaca, but if you can, tell us, please.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You're doing exactly the same thing as you did
23 before. You're asking about Serb civilians were killed in that
24 municipality, whereas the witness has clearly testified. And to that
25 extent you're misrepresenting the evidence of the witness. That he
1 didn't say anything -- he's only -- when we're looking at the figures as
2 far as is Bratunac is concerned is that those who were residents of
3 Bratunac who were killed. Unless I misunderstood the evidence of the
5 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour, I hope I wasn't representing
6 anything the witness said. I put a bold and I --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. JOSSE: -- put a general proposition.
9 JUDGE ORIE: But you can't say: Isn't it true that there were
10 more persons killed in the municipality if the witness has nothing about
11 who was killed in that municipality the witness has testified about the
12 killing and missing of persons who were registered as residents of a
13 certain municipality. It might be that none of them was killed in that
14 municipality. It might mean that all from the other municipalities, that
15 they were all killed in Bratunac. So therefore you're not putting it to
16 the witness but you're asking him to say that the figures are not right.
17 But what these figures represent is not fairly put in your question.
18 MR. JOSSE: I understand.
19 Q. What I then want to ask you is: You accept, from what you said
20 earlier, that these statistics only represent people who come from those
21 municipalities and bear no relationship at all to where they died?
22 A. Yes, precisely so. Precisely so. The graphs that I provided to
23 you -- could you please look at Bratunac if you have it before you. In
24 this graph you have a table. Compare it with the other table and you
25 will see that the number of people is significantly smaller. The
1 Honourable Judge has warned you and this is the sense of my testimony.
2 If you are interested and if the Chamber is interested in the number of
3 Serbs killed in Bratunac, we can provide you with that analysis as well,
4 if that is the subject of the indictment. As far as I know this is not
5 part of the indictment.
6 At this moment, I can tell you that when I return to Sarajevo we
7 may have totally different numbers for Bratunac. I said at the beginning
8 that the research that we are involved in is not completed. This is just
9 an indication. The tables that I provided you with, they are just an
10 indication of what happened and nothing more, nothing less.
11 From what we are going to do next, we will be able to draw up a
12 lot of tables, a lot of relations, even the relations that you are now
13 mentioning, and then we will see whether your thesis on a greater number
14 of Serbs will be confirmed or not. I can't tell you at this moment.
15 These are just hypotheses that I don't want to go into. I can only talk
16 about the things that I have in my database and that I have arguments
17 for. If you have any other data, please provide them to me. I would be
18 very happy if you could do that.
19 Q. I think it was my fault then, Mr. Tokaca, but am I right in what
20 you've just said. It would be possible for you to tell us, were you to
21 go to your database, as to how many people, according to your database,
22 were actually killed in Bratunac in 1992 and you would then divide that
23 by ethnic composition?
24 A. Yes, this can be done.
25 Q. And therefore - and I'm not being in the least bit critical
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 here - the graphs and documents that you brought to this Trial Chamber
2 have been brought here based on your understanding of the indictment or
3 based on what the OTP asked you to bring here?
4 A. Based on my understanding of the indictment. I looked at the
5 indictment and in keeping with the indictment, as it has been drafted. I
6 tried to go through the blue municipalities for which I thought they were
7 important and offer some data. I offered data for Bijeljina, Brcko,
8 Zvornik. I chose Prijedor, Sanski Most, Bosanski Petrovac, Kotor Varos
9 in order to show what actually happened to Bosniaks and Croats in those
10 municipalities and to make a connection between my words and the
11 allegations in the indictment.
12 Q. And so I take it from this, Mr. Tokaca, that you would be quite
13 happy to liaise with investigators instructed on behalf of this accused
14 in relation to other statistical analysis.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, let's try to find a procedure. Whenever
16 we'd like to have additional excerpts from the data this witness has in
17 his database, it would be proper not to have direct contact. I mean,
18 it's a Prosecution witness, at the same time the Chamber asks -- well, is
19 interested also in further -- we might present you with a short list, and
20 the parties are invited to give that list to the Chamber. We'll
21 communicate that to the witness through the Victims and Witnesses Unit.
22 And on that list, at least as one of it appears, that on the basis of
23 known data on the place where those who are registered killed, whether
24 the witness could tell us how many were killed in Bratunac and what their
25 ethnic breakdown of those killed in Bratunac would be. That's at least
1 one of the items on the list. Whoever would like to suggest any more
2 items on the list could tell the Chamber.
3 Witness, would you be willing to give such additional data and
4 then without further consultation with the parties but just on the basis
5 of your database with a clear question to provide us the information the
6 Chamber would like you to provide?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely. Your Honour --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your cooperative attitude.
11 Mr. Josse.
12 MR. JOSSE:
13 Q. Finally this, sir: You said earlier in response to a question
14 from Judge Hanoteau, he asked you whether they were killed in Bratunac.
15 And in translation you said: "They were not all killed in Bratunac,
16 probably," I should stop there. That's page 33, lines 1 to 3 of today's
17 transcript. I'll repeat that. You said: "They were not all killed in
18 Bratunac, probably."
19 Did you mean to say that?
20 MS. RICHTEROVA: Which date are you referring? 1992 or in 1995?
21 MR. JOSSE: I'm referring to 1992 -- the witness said -- this is
22 at line 23 of the page 32:
23 "Those were soldiers who resided in Bratunac who had their
24 addresses resident in Bratunac in the year 1992."
25 Question by the Judge: "Were they killed in Bratunac?"
1 "A. They were not all killed in Bratunac, probably."
2 Q. Is that right?
3 A. Yes, that is right. I did not analyse their places of death.
4 Many of them must have been killed in Bratunac; however, it is also
5 probable that as soldiers they moved around front lines and that they
6 were killed in different places. The purpose of our research is to show
7 correlation between the place where people found themselves in 1992
8 living peacefully and places where they were killed as soldiers, for
10 Also, we wanted to show a correlation between the places where
11 the civilians found themselves in 1992 and the places where they might
12 have been killed. I have explained that. Somebody who was arrested in
13 Bratunac and taken away -- I remember a group very well that was
14 transported from Bratunac to Pale and imprisoned there. And they could
15 have all been killed there. I'm not saying anything. People moved
16 around and we had to be able to explain that.
17 Q. I just want to go on with what you said in answer to the same
18 question. "In this case, we were not interested in soldiers more or
19 less. There is also the category of the location of death. However, the
20 analysis that we have done so far for civilians, they all show [Realtime
21 transcript read in error: "Somehow"] the almost total overlapping of the
22 place of death and the place of residence."
23 In other words, it is likely to be the same, isn't it, place of
24 residence and place of death? Or am I misunderstanding you?
25 A. This is a hypothetical question, what if. I offered graphs that
1 show unequivocally that the citizens who resided in certain
2 municipalities in 1992 and who went missing or were killed in various
3 locations were an overlapping phenomenon. They went missing and they
4 were killed at the same time. At the same time people were killed and at
5 the same time they went missing from their places of residence. Even
6 without my analysis, give this to any expert. That person will come to
7 the same conclusion, and that is that the events happened at the same
8 time, that the fact that people went missing and the fact that people got
9 killed happened more or less at the same time.
10 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I don't know whether in the light of
11 that answer Your Honour would permit me to again put the general
12 proposition that I advanced earlier. If Your Honour feels it's
13 inappropriate, I won't.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Was that about the numbers killed?
15 MR. JOSSE: Yes. The general suggestion that more Serbs were
16 killed in Bratunac than --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. JOSSE: -- Bosnia.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And are you talking about civilians or are you
20 talking -- because you said you're mainly interested in civilians.
21 MR. JOSSE: Civilians, correct.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then let's see whether we find that and specify. I
23 think we should then go to the chart saying "total number of those killed
24 during the war based on," and then we have the wrong translation and have
25 civilians 240 -- Bosnians 240 for the whole of the period and 100
1 Serbians. Is that correct or -- because I would -- be quite clear what
2 we are asking the witness.
3 MR. JOSSE: Well, I wanted to re-ask the question, Your Honour,
4 that one can find at page 56, line 13 of today's transcript.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but your question was whether his figures were
6 right or wrong. And I want to make it quite clear to the witness what
7 figures exactly we are talking about.
8 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Are we talking about civilians --
10 MR. JOSSE: We are talking about civilians --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Are we talking about 1992 or the whole of the
12 period --
13 MR. JOSSE: We are talking about 1992.
14 JUDGE ORIE: 1992. So it's of no -- then in the charts, we
15 should the breakup for 1992. I think we should then -- let me just have
16 a look. We are talking about people killed in 1992. Where do we find
17 that exactly, Mr. Josse? So that we can put it to the witness and say:
18 You present these figures, are they right or wrong?
19 MR. JOSSE: Well, we find it in the fourth or fifth chart in
21 JUDGE ORIE: The fourth or the fifth. Let me just -- if you give
22 the numbers of the -- I mean, that's of course a bit of a problem, but if
23 you would give us the title of the chart and then some clue as far as
24 figures are concerned so that we know exactly what you are talking about.
25 MR. JOSSE: In English it's --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. JOSSE: "Total number of those missing and killed based on
3 year of the event."
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So then now you're including the missing as
5 well, where I think your earlier proposition was about those killed,
6 isn't it?
7 MR. JOSSE: Well, that's right.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. JOSSE: And as I understand it, Your Honour, it should say
10 "total number of missing or killed." We haven't actually asked about the
12 JUDGE ORIE: And what about the total number of those killed,
13 which is one of the subsequent --
14 MR. JOSSE: Thank you --
15 JUDGE ORIE: And where it clearly --
16 MR. JOSSE: Thank you very much. I hadn't seen that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: This --
18 MR. JOSSE: That's very helpful, thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- breakdown in civilians and soldiers and those
20 unknown. I see for 1992 the total number of those killed in 1992, if we
21 are talking about civilians, 128 Bosnians and 69 Serbians. Is that
23 MR. JOSSE: Yes, that's right.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If you want to put that to the witness, please guide
25 him to the place and ask your question.
1 MR. JOSSE:
2 Q. So have you got that in your charts, Mr. Tokaca?
3 A. You mean the overall number of those killed and those missing per
4 year, the civilians?
5 Q. No. Total number of those killed based on year of the event.
6 JUDGE ORIE: What seems to be in your language, Mr. Tokaca,
7 [B/C/S spoken]. My pronunciation is certainly not right.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the municipality of Bratunac,
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The overall number 1.489 killed.
12 MR. JOSSE:
13 Q. Yes --
14 A. The national make-up --
15 Q. Can I stop you. It's the very left-hand column that I'm
16 interested in which talks about 1992. Bosniaks 128, Serbs 69 in relation
17 to civilians who were killed. That's what that column refers to. Is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And I'm suggesting that in that year civilians in Bratunac, many
21 more Serbs -- more Serbs were killed than Bosniaks. Let me put it like
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse puts it to you that the figures are wrong
24 because he puts it to you that there were more Serb civilians killed that
25 were registered as residents than --
1 MR. JOSSE:
2 Q. Yes, no, don't know, Mr. Tokaca?
3 A. It's absolutely wrong. It's absolutely and totally wrong, what
4 you are saying I mean.
5 Q. And why are you so confident that what I am saying is absolutely
6 and totally wrong?
7 A. Because you do not have the names of those civilians. If you can
8 submit the names and all the other corroborating facts, I can believe
9 you. But I at the moment have the names of those Serb civilians who we
10 believe have been killed. I'm not saying that this figure is not likely
11 to change, I'm not saying that we're not likely to have more than 69 by
12 the end of our work. However, at this stage I cannot claim that there
13 would not be more Bosniaks either. But what you're saying that in
14 Bratunac in 1992 there were more Serb civilians killed than Bosniaks,
15 sir, that's absolutely incorrect.
16 MR. JOSSE: One moment, please, Your Honour.
17 [Defence counsel confer]
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Thank you very much. No further questions.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Josse.
21 Any need for further --
22 MS. RICHTEROVA: No. There won't be any re-examination.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I've got one question for you, Witness Tokaca.
24 Questioned by the Court:
25 JUDGE ORIE: And you have testified in the Vasiljevic case as
2 A. That's correct.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And there were questions put to you that certain
4 victims, the first ones to die, what their ethnicity was. Do you
5 remember that?
6 A. I do.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And you also said that you wouldn't know because you
8 were not interested in ethnicity of victims, therefore whether that first
9 one was Serb or Bosnian or Croat you couldn't say because that was not
10 one of your fields of interest.
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, all the material you present to us today gives
13 in quite some detail the ethnicity of the victims. What has changed or
14 why did you say at that time that you couldn't tell anything on the basis
15 of the ethnicity of victims because you were not interested in it,
16 whereas today you present us with quite a -- I mean every chart you give
17 clearly identifies the ethnicity of the victims?
18 A. Your Honour, at the investigation stage I'm not interested in the
19 ethnicity of the victims. What I can't ignore, and I should not ignore,
20 is the fact that those people did belong to various ethnic groups that
21 used to live in Bosnia and Herzegovina. So a priori my approach to the
22 problem of war crimes and victims is not based on ethnicity and religion
23 because when you start investigating something you don't know what you're
24 going to come up with. I start my investigation in such a way as to make
25 sure I uncover the whole truth about the events. As to what is revealed
1 we don't know at the start, we still have a long way to go. Even now I
2 can't tell you at the very end of this exercise the ethnic make-up is
3 going to be the same; I really can't tell you. And I don't want to
4 engage in that kind of conjecture. I would like to have a mathematically
5 precise set of facts about the victims. I don't care about that at the
6 beginning, I mean about the ethnicity. If I had that approach I would
7 deal with one ethnic group only and deal with those victims only to begin
9 On the basis of these tables you can see that if I look into all
10 ethnic groups and that says something about the approach I tend to adopt.
11 I'm interested in the victims from all ethnic groups, not the other way
12 around. I'm not working on the assumption that I should look into the
13 victims one group only.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, I'm not saying that you're ethnically oriented.
15 Why didn't you at that time say, give me the name of the victim and I'll
16 try to find out because that's what in our records? You understand what
17 I mean? You said at that time when you were specifically asked, I think
18 it was by the Defence, whether the first victim -- what ethnicity he was,
19 you said, I couldn't tell you -- where I do understand it is part of your
20 records and you could have told if you would have done some further
21 investigation into that.
22 A. Your Honour, when the first victim fell is a very complicated
23 issue. We can go back to 1991/1990 in all various parts of the country.
24 At the time it looked like a leading question and that's why I answered
25 the way I did. Had I actually been asked for the name and the surname of
1 a certain person, if I was told, okay this is Petar Petrovic in Visegrad
2 can you check out in your database when this guy was actually killed, I
3 could have done that. But I can't tell what the person asking the
4 question is after. People have to ask specific questions.
5 Give me the name of the victim, the name and the surname of the
6 victim, and I can give you a specific answer to that specific question.
7 And that is something that would be a normal and desirable communication
8 between the people asking questions and the people giving answers. Give
9 me the name and the surname and I can check it out in the database right
10 now. Anyone from the Defence or the Prosecution, or you, Your Honour,
11 can do that. I mean, as to the question who was the first victim, what
12 is the ethnicity of the first victim, it's a rather complicated issue,
13 you know. We don't know who the first victim was. Do you mean in 1992,
14 1991, 1990? So that's the way it came across when I was asked the
16 JUDGE ORIE: I've read the transcript, I've read the question,
17 I've read the answer.
18 May I take you again to P858. These are the tables. One of the
19 tables, I hope you can find it, is the "total Number of People Killed
20 Based on the Year of the Event" but then not broken down for the years
21 but for the month within 1992. Just to guide you, it says "January 2
22 Bosnians, 0 Serbs; February 1 Bosnian, 0" -- you've found that? That's
23 the table that gives a total of 197 in that right bottom corner. You
24 found it?
25 A. You are referring to --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Bratunac --
2 A. Just a moment. I'm looking for it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: One of the problems, Ms. Richterova, is that there's
4 no numbering. Every page is page 1, and that's --
5 A. Yes, I think I've found it. 197 in the right-hand corner.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What surprises me, and I'm asking you whether
7 you could explain that, that where a lot of civilian Bosnians died in
8 May, that the number of Serb civilians dying in Bratunac in July, August,
9 September, October, and November is far higher than it is in the first
10 six months of that year. The reason why I'm seeking for an explanation
11 is because the Chamber has heard some evidence which places the combat
12 situation or at least the military operations rather in the first half of
13 the year. And now we see that there are hardly any Serbians dying. And
14 where in the second half of the year where it seems that militarily the
15 situation has been stabilised more or less, suddenly the number of Serb
16 civilians dying becomes far higher, even higher than the number of
17 Bosnian civilians dying. Could you -- have you any explanation for that
18 development over that year?
19 A. Your Honour, I really did not analyse the details of these
20 tables. I suppose there might have been some combat operations there. I
21 can't rule it out. I'm simply showing the data that has been uncovered
22 in the course of our research. For all these victims of Serb ethnicity,
23 for example, between July and the end of year, we could try and find out
24 where exactly and under what circumstances they were killed. It is
25 indeed possible that there may have been combat operations in that area
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 and that Serb soldiers had been killed in the course of those combat
2 operations. I can't rule it out. What was important to me was to record
3 the death of a civilian in a certain period of time and if possible to
4 see what the cause of death was. It is possible to do that and I can of
5 course obtain this information for you and let you know under what
6 circumstances these people died.
7 This is something that cropped up in the course of our research.
8 I did not channel it in any way. I mean, the table simply represents the
9 data that we've managed to uncover. And now with regard to each
10 individual event referred to in this table, we could come up with an
11 explanation. It is indeed possible that there have been some war
12 operations, combat operations, involving Serbs at that period of time.
13 It can't be ruled out.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Have the questions by the Bench triggered any further questions?
16 Mr. Krajisnik, I forgot you. I apologise for that because I should have
17 given you an opportunity to ask questions.
18 We allow in this courtroom -- Witness, we allow Mr. Krajisnik to
19 put questions to a witness as well.
20 Again, I apologise, Mr. Krajisnik, that I have not given you an
21 -- earlier an opportunity to put questions to the witness. Please
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise. It's a bit rude
24 for me to talk after the Bench, and I don't intend to do that in the
25 future, but do allow me please to ask a couple of questions.
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Krajisnik:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Tokaca.
3 A. Good day.
4 Q. We speak the same language. We call it in different ways, but we
5 understand each other and we should, though, have a break between the
6 question and the answer for the benefit of the interpreters. We both
7 tend to speak quite fast so it might be a problem.
8 I tend to ask you since I have been away from the area for a long
9 time, you were at Bratunac, or rather you have been in Bratunac recently?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you saw quite a few tombs and there is a memorial centre in
12 relation to the Srebrenica tragedy and a centre which refers to Bratunac.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did you see how many people were buried there?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you help the Trial Chamber, because the media sometimes
17 manipulate this information. They keep saying that we are talking about
18 all the Serbs that were killed and I think it is about 3.000 or so.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, please put questions to the witness.
20 Approximately 70 per cent of what you consider to be a question is
21 comment rather than introducing a question.
22 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
23 Q. I'm looking at the table which indicates that the overall number
24 in Bratunac, the overall number of those killed was 616, those missing
25 13, unknown 1, and 630 people is the total number, the overall number.
1 And the media keep referring that this memorial centre is for about 2 to
2 3.000 people who had been killed during the war. And I would like you to
3 try and answer and explain to the Trial Chamber and to everybody else
4 what the situation is. We're talking about the Serb population only.
5 A. I really can't talk about the same categories and in the same
6 terms that you do. All sorts of figures have been bandied about with
7 regard to Bratunac and Bosnia and Herzegovina in general. You will
8 remember that there were references to 250.000 or 350.000 people killed
9 in Bosnia and Herzegovina and you can tell that it is incorrect.
10 I deal with specific individual victims and what I submitted to
11 this Trial Chamber is the information that I have available at the
12 present moment. So I don't want to make any assumptions and I'm never
13 ever going to say that 12.000 people were killed at Srebrenica unless I
14 have 12.000 names. But I have many less names.
15 So, Mr. Krajisnik, I can't talk about Bratunac by saying it's
16 being claimed in the media, it's been rumoured, et cetera. I can only
17 talk on the basis of individual names and surnames, as I suppose you do
18 as well, and therefore I can go along with your statement here. I do
19 know that this figure of about 3.000 Serbs having been killed in the
20 municipality of Bratunac has been bandied about, but I can't believe that
21 number until I've researched it, until I complete my investigation much
22 the same way as I did with regard to Muslims. And I was there, and not
23 just in Bratunac. And even now as I'm sitting in this courtroom my
24 colleagues are entering data into the database with regard to Bratunac
25 and that's why I've told the Trial Chamber there may be a major change in
1 this data and that's why I've warned all those listening to me. This
2 gives a very good indication of what had happened and over what period of
3 time, what the Trial Chamber has said, that is they are interested in the
4 situation in six or seven or eight months, what have you.
5 There is a memorial centre, I visited that memorial, but I also
6 have to say that civilians, soldiers, and others have been buried there.
7 And so we actually need to check it out, who were buried there and where
8 from. But I'm not in favour of figures not based on any information. I
9 think we must establish a clear identity of each and every victim.
10 Q. My question was this: Since you were in Bratunac, did you see
11 the cemetery where those people had been buried? I did not see it
12 myself. Is there a cemetery there and did you investigate the situation?
13 Were those people from Bratunac or somewhere else?
14 A. I looked at many war cemeteries at Bratunac as well, but I can't
15 tell you at the moment. I don't suppose they were all from Bratunac and
16 much the same way as Sokolac. They are not all from Sokolac. And at the
17 military cemetery in Vlasenica, not everybody was from Vlasenica. So
18 therefore, those crosses, those tombstones that we found there, I suppose
19 they don't all mark the graves for the people from Bratunac. But those
20 who originally were registered as resident in Bratunac in 1992 will have
21 been recorded according to this criterion and if in the census of 1991
22 they were resident in Bratunac.
23 Q. Since you are from Sarajevo, as I am, could you please be of
24 assistance because I don't really have much time so could you please give
25 shorter answers. Do you know exactly how many graves there are there?
1 A. No, I don't know.
2 Q. Thank you. My second question: There is a piece of information,
3 do you remember, it was sent in on the 30th of October, 1992, to the UN,
4 to the high commissioner on human rights in Geneva in conjunction with
5 the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it lists all the various
7 A. Who is the author of that paper?
8 Q. I think it was your commission, the way I saw it.
9 A. Everything that ever left my office bears my signature.
10 Thousands of documents that I submitted to this Tribunal, to the UN in
11 general, or any other institution bears my signature as well and it has a
12 coat of arms of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the official coat of arms, and it
13 says the commission and so on and so forth. And so if it says so on that
14 document you should tell me.
15 Q. Can I ask you whether on the 30th of October, 1992, you sent any
16 documents to the high commissioner on human rights in Geneva? That's all
17 I'm asking you.
18 A. I can't remember.
19 Q. Thank you very much.
20 Mr. Tokaca, in the beginning of the war, 1992, was Sarajevo
21 covered with posters representing potential war criminals?
22 A. What period are you referring to?
23 Q. April and in May.
24 A. In April I was in Sarajevo and I believe in two places I saw
25 posters of Radovan Karadzic. I can't remember anything else, any posters
1 representing anyone else, and -- not where I went, and it was very
2 difficult to move around Sarajevo at the time.
3 Q. Thank you. Who was the first president of the commission on war
5 A. Mr. Stjepan Kljuc.
6 Q. Did you investigate war crimes that were perpetrated in Sarajevo?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Let me ask you now: Did you read the book written by Professor
9 Muhamed Filipovic: I was Alija's diplomat?"
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the answer.
11 JUDGE ORIE: What was your answer as to whether you read this
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Since you read the book you must have noticed that Mr. Filipovic
16 did something which could be described as a humane gesture and he got Mr.
17 Nikola Koljevic's brother out of prison. Do you remember that?
18 A. I do remember; that is referred to in the book, but I don't know
19 under what circumstances it happened.
20 Q. It is a very humane gesture. Do you remember that?
21 A. I don't remember that.
22 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm sorry, I can't see the relevance of these
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, what's the relevance of these
25 questions? If the -- of course we have the problem of language. If you
1 explain the relevance.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to show you pretty
3 quickly why this is relevant.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please formulate your next or your after-next
5 question in such a way that it becomes perfectly clear as to what the
6 relevance is; if not, we'll ask you to move to your next subject.
7 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Had there been lots of arrests that you as commission were not
9 aware of around Sarajevo?
10 A. I can't rule it out. I'm not saying they were not, but my job is
11 not about assumptions. I deal with facts. If I have any knowledge of
12 some event, I try to uncover facts. There were also sorts of arrests
13 taking place, you know.
14 Q. Did you as commission know about it or not?
15 A. Of course we did, of some. Not -- we didn't know about
16 everything, but we knew of some arrests.
17 Q. According to you, were those arrests proved or even ordered by
18 the official authorities -- or rather, the commission?
19 A. We did not have those powers. We could not issue such orders. I
20 believe you should be aware of one thing. It is not a body, an executive
21 body. We could not order anything of that sort. We should help the
22 Prosecution and the courts to uncover the truth and to bring people to
23 trial, so it is absolutely impossible for the commission to have done so.
24 As to whether the official authorities had done that or not, I know
25 nothing about it, I had no documents which could prove that the official
1 authorities, whatever you mean, if you mean some local authorities at the
2 municipal level or the state Presidency or some kind of ministry issuing
3 such orders, for example, the Ministry of the Interior, it is possible,
4 but --
5 Q. Mr. Kljujic was a member of the Presidency. He was a member of
6 your commission. Do you know of him as a member of the collective
7 Presidency ever ordering such arrests?
8 A. I know nothing of the sort in relation to him really.
9 Q. And what about your opinion?
10 A. I know him very well and we work together. He -- no, my answer
11 is no.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm going to stop this line of questioning for two
13 reasons. First of all, although it may be true that sometimes people are
14 arrested before they disappear, this witness testified about those killed
15 and those missing and not about those arrested. That's point one.
16 Secondly, it has not become clear from the questions what it
17 actually is seeking. Since this Chamber has not understood the Defence
18 case to be that since the other party may have done things wrong, that
19 that would in any way justify or excuse what has been done, at least if
20 I'm wrong, Ms. Loukas or Mr. Josse, please tell me, but I did not until
21 now learn that that's the Defence case. So therefore, it is irrelevant.
22 You may move to your next subject, Mr. Krajisnik.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it is not my goal to
24 talk about the reciprocity here. Could you please wait for me to put the
25 last question that I want to ask the witness --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Krajisnik, counting the numbers of
2 questions is not one of your best-developed abilities. If you say: I've
3 got one question for the witness, then put it to him and then that would
4 most likely conclude the examination. Please proceed.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if I am not allowed
6 to put questions the way I would like to, then there is pointless for me
7 to put any questions at all. This witness is from Sarajevo, where I
8 resided as well. I wanted to ask a question, but I have to make an
9 introduction into that question before I put it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik -- well, I'm not saying under no
11 circumstances a brief introduction for a question is disallowed. But at
12 the same time, I had to stop you already a couple of times because the
13 introduction was comment rather than anything else. If you please keep
14 that in mind and also please be aware that whenever it would be comment
15 rather than a neutral introduction of the question, I'll stop you.
16 Please proceed.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thank you for bearing with me,
18 Your Honour. I'm not a professional lawyer, as you know, and you
19 appreciate that, I can see. Let me put a question to Mr. Tokaca.
20 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Could you provide me with your opinion. Momcilo Krajisnik was in
22 Pale. Do you know that I could be aware of what was going on in Vogosca
23 if you draw a parallel with your Presidency --
24 MS. RICHTEROVA: He's asking for --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not have to know that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Both there was an objection that he was asking for
2 an opinion and at the same time the witness said that he doesn't have to
3 know that. Well, if you ask for an opinion, it's not a matter of
4 knowledge. Let me see whether I can assist you, Mr. Krajisnik.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us anything about communications at
7 that time in the closer Sarajevo area? Was there a possibility to know
8 what -- for you what happened at a short distance but on the other side
9 of the confrontation line?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All the information that we could
11 come by is the information that we receive from the eyewitnesses, those
12 who survived. Sarajevo was encircled, there were no communications. So
13 whatever we could find out was by the -- through those channels.
14 As for Mr. Krajisnik's question, and a parallel between what was
15 going on in Sarajevo, if anybody issued an order there is no
16 justification for him if he didn't know what was going on in one part of
17 the town or not. He had to know. He was part of the government. If the
18 crime was committed, then he -- that person is responsible. If you were
19 in Pale, you did not have to know what was going on in Vogosca, but you
20 had to know and you had to take measures because the communication there
21 was better.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Exactly that happened what we wanted to avoid would
23 happen; that is, that you would give opinions on matters which are beyond
24 your knowledge. As far as if you stayed at the same side of the
25 confrontation line, so that means in that in BH-controlled area, was
1 there a possibility of communication?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Within?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Within, yes.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There were communications.
5 There was such a possibility.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you would say communication across the
7 confrontation line was difficult because of the reason you gave. And if
8 you would stay at the same side of the confrontation line, there was
9 communication. Is that a correct understanding of your answer?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, that was your last question, I
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have one more question, and that
16 will bring my examination to an end, if I may. If the Trial Chamber will
17 allow me that last question.
18 JUDGE ORIE: You may put the question to the witness, but before
19 we allow the witness to answer the question we'll ask him to make a pause
20 so that we can consider whether the question is an appropriate one.
21 Mr. Krajisnik.
22 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You have testified today that you established contacts with
24 similar institutions in Belgrade and in Zagreb. Why did you not
25 establish such a contact with the commission in Republika Srpska?
1 JUDGE ORIE: The first question is: Did you establish any
2 contact with such a commission in Republika Srpska?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Krajisnik, I don't know whether
4 you understood me well. I was talking about the contacts between the
5 research teams --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not understand the question
9 JUDGE ORIE: Have you established contacts between your
10 organisation and a similar organisation or a similar commission, such a
11 commission, in Republika Srpska?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then there's no need to answer the question why you
14 did not do that.
15 This concludes your examination --
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. I asked
17 about the commission for the establishment of war crimes and whether the
18 contact was established with that commission.
19 Q. Did you establish contact with that commission?
20 A. I'm not aware of the existence of such a commission in Republika
22 Q. Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, your question was: "Why did you not
24 establish such a contact with the commission in Republika Srpska?"
25 The witness -- and I interpreted this answer as: "We did," and this
1 concludes the examination of the witness, unless the questions of Mr.
2 Krajisnik have triggered any need for further questions from the
3 Prosecution. If not, Mr. Tokaca, I would like to thank you very much for
4 having come to The Hague and for having given your testimony. I'll ask
5 the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Your laptop will be disconnected and it will be
8 returned to you with all the data on it, Mr. Tokaca.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber is able to finalise two decisions.
11 The first is the decision on the seventh batch of 92 bis. The other
12 decision is on the protective measures for Witness 165. We could do two
13 things. We could adjourn for approximately half an hour and ask everyone
14 to return. Another way of dealing with it is the parties would be
15 informally advised this afternoon about the content of the decision for
16 the seventh batch of 92 bis. This might include already that we would
17 provide the handout that will accompany the decision.
18 That would be an informal way. It would at least give the
19 parties an opportunity to leave and go wherever they have to go at this
21 Mr. Josse, Ms. Loukas, any preference for one of the two options?
22 MS. LOUKAS: Your Honour, it seems sensible to me to adopt the
23 approach whereby the Trial Chamber can inform us informally as a result
24 of those two decisions. From the Defence perspective we wouldn't have a
25 problem with that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
2 MR. TIEGER: That's fine, Your Honour. If I could also ask that
3 -- we announce the -- our intention to tender the two additional dossiers
4 and provide them to the Court at a convenient moment.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It's Friday, it's dossier day.
6 Then the parties will be informed about the core of the decisions
7 that will be delivered formally in open court next Monday.
8 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we still have to deal with the exhibits, isn't
10 it. That's point one.
11 MS. RICHTEROVA: That's point one. We have two exhibits for
12 Mirsad Tokaca. But also I would like to inform the Court about the
13 sources or origins of documents in two dossiers. You requested --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MS. RICHTEROVA: And I have the answers for you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please tell us. I'm looking at the clock and
17 I'm a bit concerned that we might run out of tape, but I'll be advised if
18 that risk comes up.
19 MS. RICHTEROVA: These documents are dossiers -- documents signed
20 by Milos --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MS. RICHTEROVA: And the Court was interested who Milos is. This
23 was dealt in the Brdjanin case. The name was stated in the Brdjanin
24 case. What I can see in -- what I can say in open session is that he was
25 an agent of national security service in Banja Luka. And all these
1 documents, type 1 in Celinac dossier and type 5 and 8 in Teslic dossiers
2 were seized in security services centre in Banja Luka on 27 of February,
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that information. You said this is
5 what you could tell us in open session. Would there be anything to be
6 added if we turn into private session?
7 MS. RICHTEROVA: Only the name of the agent --
8 JUDGE ORIE: The name --
9 MS. RICHTEROVA: If you need to know the name.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Loukas, the Chamber doesn't know the name. Is
11 it for you important to know that name, then we would turn into private
13 MS. LOUKAS: No, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then we leave it --
15 MS. LOUKAS: We can be advised informally.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that then concludes today's session. Any
17 urgent procedural matters, apart from the ones already raised?
18 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No.
20 Then we'll adjourn until next Monday.
21 Mr. Registrar, that would be ...
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 JUDGE ORIE: The parties will be advised on where it is and
24 whether it's at 9.00 in the morning or quarter past 2.00. I haven't got
25 my court calendar here, but I take it that the parties have it available
1 to them. We'll adjourn until next Monday.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.48 a.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day of
4 July, 2005