1 Friday, 8 July 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 If there's no procedural issue to be raised, I'd like to turn
11 into closed session again in order to continue the cross-examination of
12 Witness 666. We'll turn into closed session.
13 [Closed session]
11 Pages 16040-16089 redacted. Closed session.
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, unless you would object to that, I
25 would first like to ask Madam Registrar to deal with the exhibits that have
1 been presented to Witness 666 and then have them -- and then to determine
2 whether they are admitted, yes or no. And if there's any remaining issue,
3 then you may address us.
4 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. With one preliminary matter --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. MARGETTS: -- and that is that the video of the funeral was
7 not shown in court, but a still from that video was. And secondly, a
8 transcript of a speech given at that -- at the time of that funeral was.
9 So what we wish to do was to actually have the video footage presented as
10 part of Exhibit 17, even though it was not presented to the witness. When
11 I -- when I say "17", it's not exhibit 17 but it's --
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's number 17 on the exhibit list presented in
13 relation to Witness 666.
14 Mr. Stewart, would there be any ...?
15 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, a reasonable question would be,
16 Why? After all, it seems but a waste of time. If -- I wouldn't have
17 checked if the Prosecution indicate what possible point was to be got out
18 of this video in addition to all the evidence that's been given.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts.
20 MR. STEWART: If there is a point, then all right. But it's a
21 bit mysterious what it is.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, what would the video add to what is
23 on paper?
24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, the video will depict where the
25 individual depicted in the still was standing at the time that the still
1 had been made and will give context to that exhibit. The video will depict
2 a relevant issue raised in the Defence's examination of the number of
3 people present, the nature of the people present at the funeral. The video
4 also will depict not only the words spoken by Radovan Karadzic but to who
5 he spoke those words and the atmosphere at the time he spoke those words,
6 which was also another subject of the witness's evidence.
7 And furthermore, just from a practical point of view, we would
8 be putting it in as a contextual document. Otherwise, it just wouldn't be
9 convenient if the video footage itself was separated from the still and the
10 transcript that have been introduced.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, any --
12 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, well, the still was a
13 different occasion altogether, so that's not really nothing to do with it.
14 It's impossible to understand what the practical inconveniences of
15 separating the video footage from the evidence. One just doesn't put the
16 video footage in. But the really important point is this: It appears that
17 some point will be made about the -- by the Prosecution in relation to the
18 physical location of individuals on this occasion. Your Honour, that
19 should have been introduced in evidence when the witness was giving his
20 evidence in chief because if there is any point at all of any relevance of
21 at arising from the video, then it was clearly a matter which should have
22 been open to cross-examination when the witness was here.
23 So there are two courses now: Forget the video, because the
24 evidence is there as it stands; or let's see the video played, and let's
25 bring the witness back, then, for any further cross-examination required in
1 relation to that matter. But it must be one or other of those.
2 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, the evidence that the witness has
3 given in relation to the funeral, we do not think will be added to by him
4 viewing the video. However, the circumstances of the funeral, the capacity
5 of Your Honours to assess the evidence that has been given by the witness
6 will be added to by the video, and we reiterate that to have this separated
7 from the other exhibits, which are derived from the video, would be an
8 unnecessary creation of separate exhibit number and unnecessary
9 administrative difficulties. I am certain that the video itself is a piece
10 of evidence that is relevant to this proceeding, and for that very reason -
11 - on many occasions there was reference to what took place at this funeral
12 throughout the witness's evidence, but there would be no need to bring him
13 back to make any further comment than the comments he has already made.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, I may take it that the video was
15 disclosed to the Defence well in time?
16 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. Yes.
17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, that's not the point though. I --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
19 MR. STEWART: Sorry. I beg your pardon.
20 JUDGE ORIE: It was my question. The question of fact. Whether
21 it's a point or not, I just wanted to satisfy myself whether this video was
22 in the hands of the Defence at a due time.
23 Let me just consult with my colleagues.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there anything more to be said in this
1 respect? We heard from the Defence; we heard from the Prosecution.
2 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, there is.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, please understand, Your Honour, I
5 wasn't contradicting or intending to undermine in any way Your Honour's
6 factual inquiry.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. STEWART: I was simply trying to develop it. That doesn't -
9 - the point goes beyond that. It's this: Your Honour, this video was not
10 -- was not introduced in evidence. It was supplied to the Defence. But we
11 -- if the Prosecution do not put something in evidence, then we decide in
12 the light of their not putting it in evidence not to use it. But they are
13 now after the witness has left court seeking to put this in evidence for
14 some extra purpose, and it -- it therefore must -- it's -- it must be
15 adding to the evidence because if it doesn't add to the evidence, there's
16 no possible reason for it to go in. So they are seeking to add to the
17 evidence after the witness has left court. The evidence that the
18 Prosecution put in is evidence on which I must be entitled to cross-
19 examine. So that is -- it's the same choice, Your Honour, I indicated a
20 moment ago: It either stays out, or if they are going to show it, we
21 should all see it now and the witness should see it -- not necessarily for
22 him to add a comment in chief. That's in the Prosecution's hands whether
23 they invite him to add any comment. But for me then to ask him any
24 questions in cross-examination that arise out of that. Because up until
25 the point when the witness left court, this video had not been put in
1 evidence and exhibit numbers certainly -- Your Honour, the idea that
2 exhibit numbering overrides the proper decisions on what evidence should or
3 shouldn't be admitted is pretty far-fetched.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: The video will be admitted into evidence. It
7 allows the Chamber to verify some of the answers given by the witness, also
8 some of the answers given in cross-examination. At least, the Chamber
9 expects that the video could insist in that respect.
10 Any further issue in respect of this, Mr. Margetts?
11 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then Madam Registrar --
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, when does the Trial Chamber view such
14 a video?
15 JUDGE ORIE: The Trial Chamber will view this video in its
16 chambers, and to the extent it becomes relevant, the Chamber will find a
17 way of informing the public about this piece of evidence being admitted and
18 about the content of it because that's one of the requirements for a public
20 MR. STEWART: Well, that -- that would have to be linked in
21 then, wouldn't it, Your Honour, with respect, with the fact that the whole
22 of this witness's evidence has been dealt with in closed session.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do agree with you. I'd forgotten about
24 protective measures; although, it may well be that this video is not in
25 need of admission under seal. But we'll have a look at that first, and
1 we'll -- there's no need to admit it under seal?
2 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour. This is not admitted under
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll find a way to make this an exhibit
5 accessible to the public.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I do understand that you'd like to
8 address the Chamber. Please do so.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask for the
10 Prosecution, if possible, to give me that tape so that I can take a look at
12 JUDGE ORIE: I take it -- yes, whether that's for the
13 Prosecution, or whether you should look at the video as it has been
14 provided to the Defence. I would avoid that everything has to be provided
15 double, but it's for sure, Mr. Krajisnik, that you should have an
16 opportunity to look at the tape. As a matter of fact, not only after
17 today, but since it has been disclosed to the Defence, it was accessible
18 already, and as you know, the Chamber does not interfere with the internal
19 communication of the Defence. But certainly if you ask Mr. Stewart, he'll
20 certainly give you an opportunity to look at the -- I don't know whether
21 it's on a CD or whether it's on a tape. But you'll find a way to look at
23 I take it, Mr. Stewart, that this is ...?
24 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, Your Honour. The -- the reason I
25 didn't -- the same thought was going through my mind as Mr. Krajisnik's,
1 which I'm happy to say does occasionally happen. But the same question had
2 gone on in my mind: I didn't ask it simply because it's a matter that I
3 had in mind I would clear up with Mr. Krajisnik just to find out from a
4 practical point of view whether he had viewed the video. Because Your
5 Honour is quite right; the internal arrangements come into it. But Your
6 Honour, I must emphasise once again the practical reality of this case is
7 such that -- the supposed theoretical smooth-running of the matters so that
8 all these matters can be viewed by everybody in time to deal with the
9 witnesses: this Trial Chamber has made that smooth process impossible for
10 us by the schedule adopted.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, may I just interrupt you. How much
12 time does the video take?
13 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, it's approximately -- there's two
14 segments. One of approximately 30 seconds and a second segment of
15 approximately three and a half minutes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, the witness is -- let me turn first
17 into private session.
18 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 [Videotape played]
7 JUDGE ORIE: The video being played, would there be any need to
8 put further questions to the witness, Mr. Stewart?
9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, all I would like to do - and it's why
10 I've asked Mr. Karganovic to come back into court for the moment - I would
11 like to just very quickly confer with Mr. Krajisnik and then see, but I
12 expect that to take one minute, probably.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Take that one minute.
14 MR. STEWART: Thank you.
15 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stewart.
18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, there's absolutely no problem, and we
19 -- well, we don't know what the Prosecution seek to get out of that, but we
20 have no request to bring the witness back and no further comment or
21 question to make in -- in relation to that video.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Well, what the Prosecution did
23 seek was already explained by Mr. Margetts. There's no need for repetition
24 to that.
25 Madam Registrar, could we then assign an exhibit number to this
1 in relation to the transcript of the text spoken on this video.
2 THE REGISTRAR: The video will be Prosecution Exhibit 877, and
3 the transcript will be P877A, which is found at tab 17 of the binder.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you then, please, give us the numbers
5 of the documents that have been tendered into evidence until now and tell
6 us what should be under seal.
7 THE REGISTRAR: P866, under seal. P867, under seal. P868,
8 under seal. P869, under seal. P870, under seal. P871. P872. P873,
9 under seal. P874. P875. P876, under seal. P877 and P877A. And P880.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Since I hear no objections, these exhibits are admitted into
13 Is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
14 MR. TIEGER: I --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. Perhaps you would like add something.
16 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. There -- the documents that
17 appear in the presentation binder at tabs 8, 9, 10, and 14 are submitted by
18 the Prosecution as contextual documents in regard to this particular area
19 of the Prosecution case.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, would you please assign
21 exhibit numbers to it. And as usual, contextual exhibits, within one week
22 we'd like to hear about any objections, and therefore they are
23 provisionally admitted.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any need to have any of them under seal,
1 or could they all --
2 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar, would you then please read
4 the description and assign the number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: The document found at tab 8, P-- will be P881,
6 order for combat activities, dated the 7th of June, 1992.
7 P881A is the document found at tab 9, daily operative report
8 from Birac Brigade command, dated 14 June 1992.
9 P881B, located at tab 10, Andric request to the command of the
10 East Bosnia Corps, dated 14 June 1992.
11 And finally, P881C, located at tab 14, information on prisoners,
12 dated 03 July 1992.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts.
16 MR. MARGETTS: Apologies. There's one further matter in regard
17 to these exhibits. Your Honour noted an error in the translation of the
18 document appearing at tab 12, which is Exhibit P874. We have rectified
19 that translation, and we have the corrected --
20 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, is this the numbering, et
21 cetera? I think I corrected it by hand. Parties are invited to do the
22 same. And it's -- I should have told you immediately, Mr. Margetts,
23 because that would have saved you the work and that would have saved us the
24 paper to be copied. I apologise for not having done it, but I have already
25 corrected the one-and-only original version.
1 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. And your correction stands in
2 the transcript, so --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Usually if I make any correction to an
4 original document, even if it's a translation, I always refer to the date
5 of the transcript in which we dealt with it.
6 MR. MARGETTS: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 There is one further matter, and that is that the Prosecution
8 has noted that there was some ambiguity in one of the words utilised in
9 Exhibits P881 and P881A, and we have rectified the translation, and we'll
10 distribute those. They are contextual documents.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you'd please take care that they'll be
12 distributed and that ...
13 Mr. Usher, could you please assist.
14 Mr. Tieger, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
15 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. Ms. Richterova will be leading
16 the next witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. TIEGER: However, as long as we are engaged in the process
19 of assigning exhibit numbers, I wanted to raise one --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. TIEGER: -- very brief matter in connection with an issue
22 that arose during the cross-examination of Witness 165.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. TIEGER: And the discussion concerning how those issues
25 could be clarified and whether any documents should be tendered into
1 evidence in connection with it.
2 I have spoken with Ms. Loukas about that. The parties agree
3 that the indictment and judgement of Mr. Vuckovic should be tendered into
4 evidence, and I have those with me now.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll ask Madam Registrar to assign
6 exhibit numbers to them, as well. That's in relation to Witness 165.
7 Yes, Madam Registrar, I think you were not -- I think no numbers
8 have yet been assigned.
9 MR. TIEGER: I don't believe so, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So they're two new exhibits. Would they be
11 Prosecution exhibits or Defence exhibits or ...?
12 MR. TIEGER: We'll undertake the burden.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar will -- if you'd please give them
16 to Madam Registrar. Then ...
17 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, it's --
18 JUDGE ORIE: And I think it should be -- I mean, the witness was
19 -- there's --
20 MR. TIEGER: My recollection is there were protective measures
21 in place and --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But in view of the character of these
23 documents, I don't think that there would be any need to tender them under
25 MR. TIEGER: I shouldn't think so, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: No.
2 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if it's helpful for the Court's
3 scheduling, I note that we would require approximately three to five
4 minutes to distribute documents to the booth before actually beginning the
5 examination of the next witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you'd start with it immediately, then we
7 could start with the witness in five minutes from now. Meanwhile --
8 MR. TIEGER: That's what I was told.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And meanwhile, we are still about to
10 distribute the other documents, and Madam Registrar will assign the exhibit
11 numbers to the exhibits related to 165.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could I just add this?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. JOSSE: If I have a moment to speak to --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. JOSSE: -- Ms. Richterova, it might save a little bit of
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. JOSSE: So during those five minute, I'll endeavour to do
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, wouldn't it be the best that we resume
23 after five minutes.
24 --- Break taken at 12.11 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.18 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, numbers still to be assigned to
2 the contextual exhibits? No, we have done that. We have done that. Yes.
3 Then we have -- no, numbers to be assigned to the two additional
4 exhibits in relation to Witness 165.
5 THE REGISTRAR: The indictment dated 28 April 1994 will be
6 Prosecution Exhibit P882. The registry has only received the English
7 translation of the document.
8 The document entitled "In the name of the people," ERN number
9 00477911, will be P883.1, and the original will be P883.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I think that the Defence used only the
11 English version of the indictment. I don't know whether you used the
12 indictment, but at least some of the documents. Is there any need to also
13 have the original in B/C/S in evidence?
14 MR. STEWART: There's no need to have it in evidence, Your
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
17 MR. STEWART: It's available to us.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
19 MR. STEWART: I suppose if we need to look at it with Mr.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
22 MR. TIEGER: And our thanks to Mr. Stewart.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And Madam Registrar, that means that no
24 original is required for P882.
25 Then are you ready, Ms. Richterova, to call your next witness?
1 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, Your Honour, I'm ready.
2 JUDGE ORIE: May the witness be brought into the courtroom --
4 MR. JOSSE: Can I just say, Your Honour, that I've said Ms.
5 Richterova can lead this witness in her entirety. There may come a point
6 where I'll object to that, in which case I'll get up and make it clear.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. JOSSE: But at the moment I don't object to any leading
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Josse.
11 I noticed that this morning's session will end after another 65
12 minutes of examination time because we need another break in view of the
13 tapes. It's up to the parties whether they think they could manage to
14 finish the examination of this witness this morning. Otherwise, we'll
15 continue at 3.00 this afternoon.
16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Good day, Ms. Malesevic, if I'm well informed.
19 Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence
20 require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the
21 whole truth, and nothing but the truth. May I invite you to make that
22 solemn declaration, of which the text is now handed out to you by the
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Ms. Malesevic, please be
3 WITNESS: MELIKA MALESEVIC
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 JUDGE ORIE: You'll first be examined by Ms. Richterova, counsel
6 for the Prosecution.
7 Ms. Richterova, you may proceed.
8 Examined by Ms. Richterova:
9 Q. Good afternoon, Mrs. Malesevic. I will ask you a few questions
10 about your background, or better say I will read the background information
11 and at the end if you could confirm whether our informations are correct.
12 You were born on 15 of September, 1949, in Jajce. You attended
13 a secondary technical school in Jajce. You started studying Faculty of
14 Economy of their university, of the Banja Luka University; however, you
15 finished only two years of your study. And after that, you started working
16 in the field of economy as a bookkeeper, head of bookkeeping department,
17 and until the war started, you were head of export department of one
18 company in Jajce; is it correct?
19 A. Yes. Let me just clarify. I was at the construction company
20 involved in the export of those services. We did construction work abroad,
21 so I was involved in that.
22 Q. In October 1992, after Jajce was taken over by VRS soldiers, you
23 went to Travnik and then further to Kresevo. And from 19 June 1993 until
24 22nd of March, 1994, you were in camp in Kresevo, and this camp was run by
25 Croatian authority; is it correct?
1 A. It is.
2 Q. After you were released from the camp, you went first to Visoko
3 and then you went to Sarajevo. And in 1995, you were involved in the work
4 of Committee for Women, which was a humanitarian organisation; is it
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And from 25 of August, 1996, you were a secretary of the Bosnian
8 National Alliance of Associations for Former Camp Inmates; is it correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you worked in this association or in this alliance as a
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you very briefly tell us what were your duties as a secretary
14 in this alliance.
15 A. Yes. Let me start at the beginning. I participated in the
16 setting-up of the association of former camp inmates of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
17 Initially we had quite a few problems. We had to organise the association
18 on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to get the data as soon
19 as possible, the number of former inmates, the places where they were held,
20 et cetera.
21 Q. I think you speak probably too quickly for the interpreters. But
22 before we will continue, may I ask you, and, in fact, it was supposed to be
23 my first question: This alliance, what was the main object of work of this
25 A. The main aims and priorities of the work of the alliance was
1 gathering information about the places of imprisonment and the number of
2 inmates that were held in those camps between 1992 and 1995.
3 Q. Is it correct that before the alliance was set up, there were
4 other associations of camp inmates?
5 A. Yes. And upon their initiative, in order to pool all the
6 documents, we decided to set up the alliance in order to have it all in one
7 place. It followed the initiative of the other associations that had been
8 set up prior to the setting-up of the alliance.
9 Q. And is it correct that the prime goal was - and I think you
10 already mentioned it - to have a complete evidence of detention facilities
11 on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
12 A. Yes, that was the main aim of the setting-up of the alliance.
13 Q. And is it correct that you collected information not only on
14 detention facilities which were run by the Serbian authorities but also run
15 by Bosnian and Croat -- Croatian authorities?
16 A. Yes. We gathered all information, no matter whose control those
17 facilities were under.
18 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I've -- I'm not quite sure whether
19 now is the time for the break or whether the break ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'll leave it a bit up to you. We should
21 have a break, a break of 20 minutes, which should start anything from now
22 until ten minutes from now. So if this would be a suitable moment, we'd
23 have a break now. Otherwise, if you'd like to put a few more questions to
24 the witness.
25 MS. RICHTEROVA: I will put a few more questions.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But not later than 20 to 1.00, please.
2 MS. RICHTEROVA: At this moment, I would like to show the
3 witness an exhibit, which is called "inmates dossier". We have -- we have
4 it in English and original language.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
6 MS. RICHTEROVA: It should be in the package under tab number 2
7 -- oh, I'm sorry, we do not have it. It should be under the witness
8 statement in the dossier. Can we ...?
9 JUDGE ORIE: The inmate's dossier, it is ERN number, last three
10 digits, 692 and following; is that correct?
11 MS. RICHTEROVA: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Up to and including 820 in the -- no, that's the
13 B/C/S version.
14 MS. RICHTEROVA: The B/C/S --
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think it goes until 705 in the English
16 translation and then original B/C/S, last three digits, 808 until 820.
17 MS. RICHTEROVA: That's exactly right.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
20 THE REGISTRAR: P884.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 MS. RICHTEROVA:
23 Q. When you started working on creation of this complete evidence or
24 list of all detention facilities, is it right that you interviewed people
25 who claimed that they were detained in any of these detention facilities?
1 A. Yes, we did talk to them, but the forms we used in the past were
2 not altogether transparent, so to say, and that has led to a need for a
3 more comprehensive and a more exhaustive kind of form in order for us to be
4 able to ascertain data properly.
5 Q. And the -- the -- if you say that more exhaustive kind of form,
6 is this form which is in front of you the kind of form you are referring
8 A. It is. Initially we would simply look at certificates issued by
9 the International Red Cross Committee and the state Committee, but it
10 proved to be insufficient because there was not sufficient data in there.
11 So after -- slightly longer than a year, we managed to compile a dossier of
12 former inmates, and there are about 56 basic questions, it seems to me, and
13 270-something sub-questions. So we've got more 300 questions, which should
14 be providing answers to everything that we were interested in at that
15 particular moment in time in order to be able to have a complete picture.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You tend to speak very quickly. Could I ask you to
17 slow down; otherwise, it could not be translated. We would not hear what
18 you said.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
20 MS. RICHTEROVA:
21 Q. I think we don't need to go into too many details regarding this
22 form because the Judges can read it by themselves. However, I want to
23 mention one thing, which is, You were not collecting information only on
24 places of detention, but also you were collecting information on the way
25 how they were treated; is it correct?
1 A. It is. Apart from identifying the detention facilities where
2 they were held, we were interested in the kind of treatment that was
3 dispensed to them, so that we asked for detailed descriptions of the
4 treatment, starting from food, hygiene, and so on and so forth, and what
5 sort of abuse happened in those detention facilities.
6 Q. When you mentioned what sort of abuse, did you create any special
7 report or list which would refer only to the way how people were abused in
8 -- in camps?
9 A. Yes. On the basis of the dossiers which identified various forms
10 of abuse, we then compiled a kind of set of documents, which was published
11 -- it was called the Book of Torture, and we did it on the basis of
12 authentic statements, and we listed more than 80 various basic types of
13 abuse without any nuances on the basis of copies we kept at our centre.
14 Q. Can you -- and very briefly because we have heard lots of
15 testimonies of witnesses who were talking about the way how they were
16 treated in prisons or various camps. Can you tell us just examples of
17 these abuses, two, three, four examples, based on -- on your knowledge,
18 based on the statements you prepared or you read.
19 A. Let me just say that the type of murder or killings had 15
20 different types, such as starvation, shooting, strangulation, et cetera.
21 And then we've heard of detailed accounts of rapes, strangulations,
22 experimenting with people. More than 80 different types of abuse are
23 illustrated in this Book of Torture, which is based on statements of camp
24 inmates who survived. Their teeth were pulled out; their hands and feet
25 were chopped off; they were forced to eat body parts, and so on and so
2 Q. Mrs. Malesevic, now I would like to go back to detention
3 facilities. I would like to know - and it would assist the Judges to know
4 - if a place was proclaimed a detention facility, what kind of proof you
5 asked to be provided.
6 A. Since the law in Bosnia and Herzegovina has not provided us with
7 a definition of detention facilities, we agreed on a definition ourselves.
8 So basically any place which was fenced in and there were guards, armed
9 guards there, and people were detained there unlawfully and human rights
10 were being violated, all those places were considered as detention
11 facilities. And on the basis of that, we compiled the list, which we hope
12 will be checked by the international community one day.
13 MS. RICHTEROVA: I think this is the time for the break.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll have a break until 1.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 1.07 p.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Richterova, please proceed.
18 MS. RICHTEROVA:
19 Q. Before the adjournment, we were talking about the way -- how you
20 declared a certain place a detention facility. When a person wanted to
21 assert a status as camp prisoner, is it correct that such a person had to
22 first contact the municipal association of camp inmates?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Such a person has to provide either a certificate from the
25 International Committee of the Red Cross or other similar body or had to
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 bring two witnesses who can testify that he was in that particular camp; is
2 it correct?
3 A. It is.
4 Q. And after this information is provided to municipal association,
5 they will verify the accuracy of the information and forward the file to
6 the regional or cantonal association; is it correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And they will again verify all the information and finally the
9 file will reach the national alliance association in Sarajevo; is it
11 A. It is.
12 Q. And you will again verify all the information.
13 A. Yes, we would check everything once again, and then we would
14 issue a certificate about the inmate status.
15 MS. RICHTEROVA: And I would like to show and tender into
16 evidence such a certificate, and it is in -- in our dossier.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
18 THE REGISTRAR: The certificate will be Prosecution Exhibit
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
21 MS. RICHTEROVA:
22 Q. So can you confirm that this is the certificate which is issued
23 by the alliance after all the information provided by a person are
25 A. Yes. This is a form that we issue as a certificate that the
1 person in question was indeed detained in one of those camps.
2 Q. And is it also correct that during your work, you personally went
3 to the field and verified by yourself or your associates the places which
4 were claimed to be detention facilities?
5 A. Yes. Very often, in cooperation with the municipal associations,
6 we carried out in-the-field checks very frequently.
7 Q. In the alliance in Sarajevo, you created dossiers per
8 municipalities in which you kept all the files with information provided by
9 prisoners; is it correct?
10 A. It is. If I may explain. We actually had a classification of
11 camps project. We tried to define all those places according to
12 municipalities, cantons, and regions, and this was the reason why we
13 decided to file documents in that way, in order to make everything more
14 easily accessible.
15 Q. And, in fact, the -- the main work was done by the municipal
16 associations because they were more familiar with the places; is it
18 A. Yes. They were in direct contact with the inhabitants of the
19 area and the people who were arrested in that area.
20 Q. However, they always cooperated with -- with the alliance and
21 provided them with all the necessary information.
22 A. Yes. And all the gathered information was submitted to the
23 alliance for further processing.
24 Q. Mrs. Malesevic, it is true that you are no longer an employee of
25 the Bosnian National Alliance of Associations and that you left the
1 association in 2004?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Before you gave -- before you were asked to give testimony here,
4 you had access to files in the alliance.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You were able to verify certain information.
7 A. Not all information, but some of it, yes.
8 MS. RICHTEROVA: With the permission of -- of Your Honour, I
9 would like to go through the Schedule C of the indictment, and the reason
10 why I was asking for permission is that I know that Mrs. Malesevic has some
11 notes. And as the list is quite long, I would -- I think she will need to
12 consult her notes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection, Mr. Josse?
14 MR. JOSSE: No, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed, Ms. Richterova.
16 MS. RICHTEROVA: If it is necessary, we have enough copies of
17 this Schedule C, if Your Honours need it for the Defence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I have not the indictment here with Schedule C on
19 it but ...
20 MR. JOSSE: I have my indictment at hand, Your Honour. Thank
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you would have a few copies of Schedule C, that
23 would be ...
24 MS. RICHTEROVA:
25 Q. Mrs. Malesevic, I would like to go through this list and ask you
1 always a few questions in relation to particular municipality. In Banja
2 Luka, we listed nine places. To your knowledge, are all these places,
3 places of detention?
4 A. According to our document -- documentation, the first eight
5 places are considered places of detention. Number 9, the Borik Stadium,
6 was actually a collection centre in 1995. And I would like to emphasise
7 that under 1.1, the prison in Banja Luka is also known as the Tunjice
8 prison. 1.3, the small camp is actually the military investigations centre.
9 They were all open in 1992, except for the collections centre in Borik,
10 which was open in 1995. The biggest camp in Banja Luka was Manjaca, where
11 there was the largest number of people detained and passed through it.
12 Q. You mentioned that a camp at Borik was a collection centre. Is
13 it correct to state that a collection centre or collection point is just a
14 place where people were gathered in order to be transferred to other
15 places, so they were kept there only for a short -- for a shorter period of
17 A. Yes. When it comes to the Borik collections centre, I would like
18 to say that this was the place from which people left Banja Luka. It could
19 be called a collections centre. However there, is another collections
20 centre that we will come across. I don't know whether the collections
21 centre could be applied to it because people were brought there by force
22 after every -- they had been robbed, and very often people had to sign a
23 document relinquishing all of their property to Republika Srpska. We
24 called this a collection centre because we did not have any other name.
25 The Borik collection centre is the one that we do not consider a
1 detention centre, and people who were there are not considered detainees;
2 we do not have them on our records.
3 Q. The other municipality is Bijeljina. We listed 15 places; to
4 your knowledge, are they all places of detention?
5 A. All the 15 places are considered detention centres, and we have
6 documents for those; most of them were opened in 1992.
7 Q. Mrs. Malesevic, I think we now -- you mentioned collection
8 centres instead of -- and I don't know whether you used this expression,
9 "collection centre," incorrectly or whether they are really -- oh,
10 detention centres. I'm sorry. It's my fault. You -- you count them all
11 detention facilities.
12 A. Detention facilities. And they're all --
13 MR. JOSSE: May I make one observation, and it's this: Clearly
14 the Court wants to know which of these were open in 1992, and it may be
15 that the witness will need to go through each municipality dealing with
16 1992. I mean, she just said most of them were open in 1992. I make that
17 observation now because otherwise I will deal with that in cross-
18 examination, but it would probably be duplication of what needs to be done,
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. JOSSE: If what I've said is not helpful, then I'm sorry.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we could also approach it negatively,
23 which were not opened, or opened only after 1992.
24 MR. JOSSE: I have no problem with that.
25 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, thank you very much. In fact, I -
1 - I meant to -- I mean to deal with -- with this issue because it's very
3 Q. In Banja Luka, were you able to find out which of these detention
4 facilities were open later than 1992? Oh, I'm sorry, in Bijeljina. In
6 A. In Bijeljina. Very well, then. I made some notes of some dates.
7 Batkovic was open from July 1992 to June 1995; Novo Selo, 1993; Patkovaca,
8 1994; Vanek's mill, 1993; the school S. Haso, 1993; Osman Velagic School in
9 1993. Those were the places that were opened after 1992 and became
10 detention centres.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I have to ask you again to slow down if you give --
12 especially if you give names and numbers.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
14 MS. RICHTEROVA:
15 Q. If I may, I would suggest, because it's -- I can see for -- for
16 transcription is very difficult to catch the names. If you always could
17 refer rather to the number, which means -- you mentioned Patkovaca. It's
18 2.8. So if you could slowly now repeat with the number of that detention
19 facility and say that -- when it was open.
20 A. I apologise. Are you -- are you referring only to those that
21 were opened in 1993 and later, and are these the ones that you want me to
23 Q. Yes. If you could repeat it with -- with numbers assigned to
24 these detention places.
25 A. 2.4, Bijeljina SUP, from June 1992 until December 1993.
1 Q. I'm sorry, Mrs. Malesevic. Only those who were open after 1993.
2 A. 2.6, Janja Field, 1993; 2.7, Novo Selo agricultural combine, May
3 1993; 2.10, Patkovaca, in January 1994; Vanek's mill, 2.13, April 1993
4 until December 1993; 2.14, S. Haso school from December 1993 until December
5 1994; 2.15, Osman Velagic's house, January 1993 to December 1993.
6 Q. Now we have Bileca municipality. We listed five places. To your
7 knowledge, were all these places detention facilities?
8 A. According to our documentation, all the five places are
9 considered places of detention.
10 Q. Were they all open and operated in 1992 or were they -- some
11 opened in 1993?
12 A. According to our records, all were opened in 1992.
13 Q. Bosanska Krupa. We listed six places, and again, to your
14 knowledge, were they all places of detention?
15 A. According to our information, Bosanska Krupa had five detention
16 places. 4.3, the elementary school, we don't have any documents for that
17 place, and we therefore did not consider it a detention place.
18 Q. And is it correct that all these places were open in 1992?
19 A. Yes. According to our information, between the 21st of April and
20 17 September 1992.
21 Q. We have further Bosanski Novi, where we listed 11 places. Did
22 you -- did you find all of them in -- in -- are they all places of
24 A. First of all, I would like to say that one place of detention
25 appears here under two different names; that's 5.5 and 5.7. The two are
1 actually one and the same place of detention. Japra, the Japra company,
2 according to our documents, is a collections centre; Blagaj was a detention
3 centre where private houses were used to detain inmates, and that's why we
4 considered it a detention centre. All the places were opened in 1992 and
5 closed in 1992, save for Suha Medja, which was the separation line that was
6 in the front where the inmates were taken as work force, and they were
7 digging trenches there, and they were kept there. According to our
8 documentation, this place of detention was opened in 1992 and remained a
9 place of detention until the end of the war, and I now see the elementary
10 school in Bosanski Novi, which was also a collection centre.
11 Q. And we --
12 A. It's 5.8.
13 Q. Thank you. Bosanski Petrovac, we listed nine places. Are they
14 all -- were they, all these places, detention facilities?
15 A. Yes, according to our records, we consider all of them detention
17 Q. And do you agree that they all were open in 1992?
18 A. Yes, on the 1st of May, 1992, they were all opened and they were
19 all active until the end of September of that same year.
20 Q. And do you confirm that Kamenica camp, under 6.3, is in fact in
21 Titov Drvar but the people from Bosanski Novi -- from Bosanski Petrovac
22 were taken there?
23 A. Yes. This is between Petrovac and Drvar, and most of the inmates
24 came from Petrovac.
25 Q. Bratunac, we listed nine places. Were they all detention
2 A. Yes. I would just like to say that 7.2, the football stadium in
3 Bratunac, and 7.5, stadium, is one and the same place of deposition. Also,
4 7.1, Bjelovac, that was actually the place of a massacre. People were
5 brought there and executed there, according to our documentation.
6 Q. And is it correct that 7.7 and 7.8 were, in fact, open only in
8 A. According to our documents, on the 12th of July these detention
9 places were opened and they were active until the 17th of July. This is --
10 this surrounds the time of the events in Srebrenica. The others were
11 opened in 1992 and closed.
12 Q. Now, Brcko.
13 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask the witness: You're referring to
14 the 12th and the 17th of July. That's 1995?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1995, yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 MS. RICHTEROVA:
18 Q. In Brcko, we listed 16 places. Were they all detention places in
19 accordance with -- with your records?
20 A. Based on our documentation, I cannot confirm 8.10, the Orthodox
22 Q. And --
23 A. The other places, according to our documents, were indeed places
24 of detention. All these places were opened on the 1st of May, 1992, and
25 closed during the same year. But Luka, the barracks, and the MUP kept
1 functioning until the end of the war. Only small groups were brought to
2 those detention places; however, they were active and we have documents to
3 prove that.
4 Q. And demolished villas in Potocari, 8.16, was opened only in 1995;
5 is it correct?
6 A. In 1995, yes, correct. That was in July 1995.
7 Q. In Cajnice we have three detention -- we have three places. To
8 your knowledge, were they all detention facilities, and were they all open
9 in 1992?
10 A. According to our information, all the three were detention
11 places. They were all opened in 1992.
12 Q. In Celinac, we have four places; however, is it correct that 10.3
13 and 10.4 -- I'm sorry. We have four places. Are they all detention
15 A. In Celinac, according to our information, the first three were
16 detention places, but the bank in Celinac under 10.4, we do not have any
17 valid documents to prove that. All of these places were opened in 1992.
18 Q. Doboj. In Doboj, there are 30 places. Were they all places of
19 detention, according to your records?
20 A. First of all, 11.1, the 4th of July Barracks, and the Miljackovac
21 Barracks are one and the same place.
22 11.28, Vinjska, we don't have documents that prove that this was
23 a place of detention.
24 Q. And is it correct that 11.29 and 11.30 were opened in 1993 and
25 all others were opened in 1992?
1 A. According our documents, Majevac was opened between 10 of June
2 and 10 of November, 1992, and the -- 1993. The rest were opened in 1992.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologies for not having heard
4 the -- all of the information.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Usora warehouse, the central
6 prison, was active until the end of the war. Small groups of detainees
7 were brought to those places.
8 MS. RICHTEROVA: I heard that we didn't hear something or the
9 interpreters were not able to -- to interpret it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you said "according to our documents,
11 Majevac was opened between 10th of July and 10th of November, 1992," and
12 then you said something about 1993, but the interpreters missed what
13 followed and your answer.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. 11.30, Ozren Kersten
15 was the place of detention, which was opened the 10th of November, 1993,
16 and closed on the 6th of January, 1994.
17 MS. RICHTEROVA:
18 Q. And was Majevac opened in 1992 or in 1993?
19 A. Majevac was opened on the 10th of June, 1993.
20 Q. Now we can move to Donji Vakuf, in which we have 12 places. Is
21 it correct that -- that all were detention facilities, or did you find that
22 some of them wouldn't be a place of detention?
23 A. After the analysis, 12.1, Djurda Kuce in Donji Vakuf, we could
24 not confirm that this was a place of detention. The rest, according to our
25 documentation, were detention places.
1 Q. And is it correct that all of them were opened in 1992, apart
2 from 12.12, which was opened only in 1995?
3 A. Yes, all of these places were opened in 1992 except for number
4 12.12, which was opened in 1995, which -- this was opened to receive
5 inmates from Mrkonjic Grad. They spent only several days there, and when
6 the place was being closed, 27 out of the 28 inmates were killed.
7 Q. Foca. In Foca, we have 24 places. Did you find that some of
8 them wouldn't be a detention facility?
9 A. Yes. First of all, we have different names for the same place.
10 The school centre in Srednja, 13.1, and 13.2, the secondary school, this is
11 just one place.
12 Also, number 13.3, Karaman's house, and 13.5, the women's camp
13 in a private house, that is also one place.
14 Number 13.6 --
15 Q. I'm sorry, just -- I notice you said 13.5, and you were referring
16 to female camp in Miljevina. Is it correct that it is 13.15?
17 A. 13.3, Karaman's house.
18 Q. And 13.15 are the same place?
19 A. 13.15 is the same as 13.3.
20 Also, according to our documentation, we cannot confirm 13.5,
21 the restaurant across the road from the prison. We don't have documents to
22 prove that. Also, we don't have documents to prove 13.16, Podedze. I
23 don't have any information about that place of detention.
24 Q. And -- and is it correct that all other places were found in --
25 in your records as detention facilities, and they were all opened in 1992?
1 A. According to our information, they were all opened in 1992.
2 Q. Gacko. We have six places. Were they all detention facilities?
3 A. According to our information, they were all detention facilities.
4 Q. You also mentioned that some work was done for you by either
5 cantonal associations or municipal associations. I received a list of
6 detention facilities from the Canton Sarajevo Association of Concentration
7 Camp inmates. And is it correct that you cooperated and they collected all
8 this information, which you later verified?
9 A. Yes. The Sarajevo canton belongs to the alliance of inmates of
10 Bosnia and Herzegovina. For certain financial reasons, they took it upon
11 themselves to do that part of the job, to list the camps and check them.
12 The Sarajevo canton made a list of all the camps and forwarded this to you.
13 In the alliance, we don't have enough workforce to do that.
14 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I would like to -- to tender these
15 two documents. One is dated 16 of June, 2005, and the ERN number is 0423-
17 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit P886.
19 MS. RICHTEROVA: The other one is dated 21st of June, 2005, and
20 the ERN number is 0423-0146.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And that would be, Madam Registrar?
22 THE REGISTRAR: P887.
23 MR. JOSSE: Sorry to interrupt. Is there a B/C/S version of
25 MS. RICHTEROVA: In fact, you can see that the -- the detention
1 facilities or the places are in both languages. One is in B/C/S, and the
2 other one is in English.
3 MR. JOSSE: That's fine. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And just for the information of Mr. Krajisnik, the
5 heading only clarifies who sent it, to whom it was sent, and that it is a
6 list of detention facilities in Canton Sarajevo in 1992 and then splits
7 that up in Vogosca, Pale, and Trnovo.
8 Please proceed.
9 MS. RICHTEROVA: In this case, I would like to rely on this list
10 for the municipalities Hadzici, Ilidza, Novo Sarajevo, Novi Grad, Ilijas,
11 Vogosca, and Pale.
12 Q. Mrs. Malesevic, I would like to continue with the municipality of
13 Kalinovik. For Kalinovik, the Prosecution listed seven places. To your
14 knowledge, were they all places of detention and were they all open in
16 A. According to our information, only 18.1, the school in Ulog, we
17 are not sure whether this was a detention camp or a collection centre. So
18 18.1, I cannot confirm. As for the rest of them, we have documentation
19 that proves that they were detention centres, and they were all opened in
21 Q. For municipality of Kljuc, we listed seven places, and is it
22 correct that they were all places of detention and they were all open in
24 A. In Kljuc, the only disputable thing is 19.7, the school in
25 Biljani. We don't know exactly how long the inmates were there; we know
1 that it was a massacre place, where they were killed. The rest were
2 detention centres. Although, the school in Biljani was intended to be a
3 detention facility, all the people were taken there against the law, and
4 they were all executed there.
5 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I --
6 Q. And were they all in -- were they all open in 1992?
7 A. Yes, they were all opened in 1992.
8 MS. RICHTEROVA: I can see the time.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We -- it's a quarter to 2.00. Just for
10 scheduling purposes, Ms. Richterova, could you give us any impression on
11 how much time you'd still need from now on?
12 MS. RICHTEROVA: I will only finish the remaining
13 municipalities, and there are - if I can count - there are about seven of
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it takes quite some time.
16 Mr. Josse, could you give us any indication on how much time you
17 would approximately need.
18 MR. JOSSE: Well, I said half an hour yesterday. I'm going to
19 be at least half an hour, I think nearer three-quarters of an hour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So there's no way that we'll finish now.
21 We'll resume at 3.00 this afternoon, and to the extent possible,
22 we might be able to finish in one session.
23 We'll adjourn until then.
24 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.46 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 3.11 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber -- or rather, the Presiding Judge
2 apologizes for the late start.
3 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I should just say Your Honour will see
4 Mr. Stewart is not here.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm informed about --
6 MR. JOSSE: Thank you. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- his presence nearby.
8 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Ms. Richterova, would you please proceed.
11 MS. RICHTEROVA:
12 Q. Mrs. Malesevic, before the adjournment, we left the municipality
13 of Kljuc. Another municipality is Kotor Varos, where we listed 17 places.
14 First, I want to say that we inadvertently added two places under 20.16 and
15 20.17, which do not belong to the municipality of Kotor Varos but to the
16 municipality of Celinac, and they were dealt with, which left -- which
17 leave us with 15 places.
18 Mrs. Malesevic, can you confirm that all these places are places
19 -- were places of detention and they were all open in 1992?
20 A. Before I answer the question, I have to say that 20.1 and 20.15
21 was one place. Fourteen places in Kotor Varos. According to our records,
22 all were open in 1992.
23 Q. I only want to make a small correction in the transcript. The
24 witness was referring to 20.1.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MS. RICHTEROVA:
2 Q. The other municipality is Nevesinje, where we listed six places.
3 And again, were all these places, places of detention and open in 1992?
4 A. Well, with Konjic, we have 21, 20. It is the camp at Boracko
5 Lake, which belongs to Konjic, and 21.6, the basement in Kucevo [phoen].
6 That belongs to the Konjic municipality. That means places of detention in
7 Nevesinje equals four, and we have documentation to bear that out.
8 Oh, I apologise. We have 21.4, the factory, and 21.5, the
9 workshop. That is one detention place.
10 Q. Thank you. Then -- and can you confirm that they were all open
11 in 1992?
12 A. Yes, they were all open in 1992.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Since you are asking about 1992, could you put the
14 same question to the witness in request of Gacko because there it was not
16 MS. RICHTEROVA:
17 Q. Witness, if we could quickly return to the municipality of Gacko,
18 where we listed six places of detention. Were they all open in 1992?
19 A. According to our records, yes, they were all open in 1992.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Richterova.
21 MS. RICHTEROVA:
22 Q. Another municipality is Prijedor, in which we listed 58 places.
23 Can you confirm that, in fact, only five of them, which is police station
24 in Prijedor, command post at Miska Glava -- I'm sorry, police station in
25 Prijedor - that's 25.2 - command post at Miska Glava, 25.3; Omarska, 25.4;
1 Keraterm, 25.5; and Trnopolje, 25.6 were detention centres. The remaining
2 places were just collection centres or collection points; is it correct?
3 A. Yes. When it comes to collection centres or points, there was a
4 dilemma with us. Yes, we did list this under collection centres; however,
5 those collection centres lasted for several days sometimes. The people had
6 been collected there, and they were mistreated, abused there, basic human
7 rights withheld. However, the other five places were defined as places of
9 Q. And is it correct to state that all these places were open or
10 functional in 1992?
11 A. Yes. According to our records, they were all opened in 1992.
12 Q. The municipality of Rogatica: we have ten places. Can you
13 confirm whether, yes or no, all were places of detention?
14 A. First of all, let me mention that 26.1, the secondary school in
15 Rogatica, and 26.6, the Veljko Vlahovic school in Rogatica, is one place of
16 detention. Also, 26.4, the square in Rogatica, we don't have any
17 information about that particular place of detention; whereas, all the rest
18 were places of detention. I beg your pardon. 26.9, the Podgoj, we have no
19 information about that, that it was a detention centre, either.
20 Q. And were they all open in 1992?
21 A. According to our records, yes, they were all open in 1992.
22 Q. In the municipality of Rudo, we listed two places. Were both of
23 them in -- can you find both of them in your records?
24 A. According to our records, yes, two places; the barracks and the
25 recreational centre.
1 Q. And were they open in 1992?
2 A. Yes, they were also open in 1992.
3 Q. In the municipality of Sanski Most, we listed 22 places. Were
4 they all detention centres?
5 A. According to our records, this number is correct.
6 Q. Did you find any duplications, the same place which would be
7 indicated under more than one place?
8 A. In Sanski Most, no remarks of that kind. It's all properly
9 defined and done.
10 Q. Is it correct that 25.16, Stari Majdan, was open in 1995?
11 A. Yes. According to our records, Stari Majdan was opened only in
12 1995, as well as the boiler room of the Sanas Hotel [phoen]. According to
13 our records, that was opened on the 16th of September, 1995.
14 Q. And it is 28.18. And is it also correct that 28.19, Sekovci, and
15 28.20, Trnova, were open in 1995?
16 A. Yes. Yes. That's right. These places were subsequently opened
17 in 1995.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then again, for the record, Ms. Richterova, where
19 it said 25.16, it should also be 28.16, Stari Majdan.
20 MS. RICHTEROVA:
21 Q. And is it correct that all the -- yes. And is it correct that
22 all other places were open in 1992?
23 A. According to our information, the rest were opened in 1992.
24 Q. The municipality of Sipovo: we listed only one place. Do you
25 have any records for detention facilities in the Sipovo municipality?
1 A. According to our records, Sipovo SUP is only mentioned. Nothing
2 else. No other records in Sipovo.
3 Q. And was it open as a detention centre in 1992?
4 A. Yes, according to our records, in 1992. That's correct.
5 Q. The municipality of Sokolac, there are ten places. Were they all
6 places of detention according to your records?
7 A. According to our records, all the places were places of
8 detention, yes, and also opened in 1992.
9 Q. Is it correct that the place under 30.9 is, in fact, a private
10 house in Cavarina instead of Cavarlija?
11 A. Cavarina, yes. There's a mistake there. Cavarina.
12 Q. And in 30.6, winter road maintenance point, is it correct that
13 this point was used in 1993?
14 A. Yes, according to our records, that was used as a place of
16 Q. In 1993? The question was whether to your knowledge it was in
17 1993 or 1992.
18 A. According to our records, 1992.
19 Q. As well as all other places mentioned under Sokolac; is it
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In Teslic, we listed 18 places; however, at the beginning I would
23 like to state that we inadvertently added places which belong to the
24 municipality of Doboj, and I am talking about places under 31.12 to 31.18.
25 It leaves us with 11 places in the municipality of Teslic. Were -- were
1 they all places of detention?
2 A. According to our records, all the places were considered places
3 of detention, yes.
4 Q. Were they all open in 1992?
5 A. Yes, all the places were open in 1992.
6 Q. And is it correct to say that 31.1 is the same as 31.8?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And --
9 A. Yes, I've just noticed that myself.
10 Q. And that 31.3 is the same as 31.6?
11 A. 31.6. Yes.
12 Q. And do you have in your records Mladost School, which is under
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And all these places were open in 1992?
16 A. Yes, in 1992.
17 Q. In Vlasenica, we listed 17 places. To your knowledge, were they
18 all places of detention?
19 A. According to our information, 32.5, the stadium at Vlasenica, was
20 a collection centre. 32.7, the playground in Kasaba, was the site of an
21 execution; that's where a massacre took place. Otherwise, all of them were
22 open in 1992.
23 Q. And this massacre which took place on a playground on -- in
24 Kasaba, when did it take place?
25 A. I have the exact date somewhere but not -- it doesn't seem to be
2 Q. Is it correct that it was in 1994?
3 A. I didn't note the date, I'm afraid. I just -- what I have noted
4 is that it was an execution site. I would have to check that out
6 Q. Do you at least know whether it was after 1992?
7 A. I think it was after 1992, yes.
8 Q. The last municipality is --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Richterova, in Vlasenica also a Camp Luka
10 appears; whereas, we had in Brcko Luka camp. It's not the same, I take it?
11 MS. RICHTEROVA: Camp Luka.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you could ask the witness. We see that a
13 camp with a similar name appears in Vlasenica, and that is a different camp
14 from Luka Camp in Brcko?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not the same one. No.
16 This is the name of a village between Srebrenica and Vlasenica.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That sufficiently clarifies my doubt.
18 MS. RICHTEROVA:
19 Q. In the Zvornik municipality, there were 26 places listed. To
20 your knowledge, were they all places of detention?
21 A. According to our information, 34.16, the stadium at Divic, was a
22 collection centre, and also 34.24, Orahovac Karakaj, was also a collection
23 centre. All the rest may be considered as places of detention according to
24 our information and records.
25 Q. And were they all open in 1992?
1 A. According to our records, they were all open in 1992.
2 Q. When we add up all these places, we -- we will have approximately
3 300 detention facilities in these 34 municipalities. When you testified
4 last time, you stated that there were 651 registered camps, which -- and
5 520 were under Serb control. Do you still stand for this information?
6 A. Yes, that's what I said last time. But in the meantime, the
7 information may have changed because we are still gathering information
8 about places of detention, so it is possible that new places of detention
9 might have been registered in the meantime.
10 Q. And, in fact, this number refers to the period -- this number 651
11 refers to the period 1992 to 1995; is it correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, witness.
14 I don't have further questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give you the opportunity to cross-examine
16 the witness, Mr. Josse, Judge Hanoteau would have a question.
17 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I would just like to ask the
18 witness to tell me what she means by "the massacre site." Does that mean
19 that there were people who were held there and that they were all
20 massacred, or what? Or was it a site where prisoners were taken to be
22 Thank you, madam.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I say it was an execution
24 site, I referred to the fact that a group of people were killed there; that
25 it was not a place where people were detained for a long time and gradually
1 taken off one by one to be killed, but that, rather, they were all killed
2 in one day, for example, all together.
3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] It wasn't a place where there
4 were people who were detained and killed, assassinated?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we don't count this as a
6 place of detention but as a place of execution; however, we list them, as
7 we do collection centres.
8 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, madam.
9 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I -- I terribly apologise.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MS. RICHTEROVA: Can I be allowed to ask one more question, just
12 to clarify one -- one point?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's -- let's do it.
14 MS. RICHTEROVA:
15 Q. When we were talking about these detention facilities, can you --
16 can you tell us, based on your knowledge, who were people detained in these
17 facilities? What was the ethnicity of people who were detained there?
18 A. I will say that we collect information on detainees and inmates
19 regardless of their ethnic and religious affiliation, so it all depends on
20 who was in control of the place of detention and who was detained there.
21 Unfortunately, there were camps on all three sides. But I think that today
22 we are only referring to camps under Serb control.
23 Q. And in these Serb-controlled detention facilities, are you able
24 to -- to tell us who were -- which ethnicity were the detained people?
25 A. In the places of detention under Serb control, it was non-Serbs
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 who were detained. Mostly Croats and Bosniaks. There were even small
2 numbers of Serbs. These were people who refused to go to the war theatre
3 or for whatever reason, so that there were also Serbs but a small number of
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would have another question, as well, Mr.
8 Josse. There's a lot I would ask for you, in terms of patience.
9 The Chamber has had an opportunity, although it's not in
10 evidence, to read a statement, a witness statement you gave in October
11 2001. It's a relatively short statement in which is contained a table of
12 camps. One of the items seems to be under whose authorities these
13 detention camps or detention centres are held, and it mainly says "Serb
14 authorities," with a few exceptions, in view of Omarska and in view of
15 Keraterm, for example. We see that the list mentions "SDS, Serb
16 authorities." Are these two places of detention, Omarska and Keraterm,
17 different, in view of you, in terms of under whose control they were, where
18 you at least give a different denomination of the controlling party or
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's an individual
21 interpretation by the witness. I think there are no differences between
22 Omarska, Keraterm, Rasadnik [phoen], or any other camp. They were all
23 under the control of the Serb forces. However, the interviewees wrote down
24 what they thought was the case.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you are not in a position to say that
1 these were different. It's just you did write down what they said, and you
2 did not give it any follow-up as to further inquiry into that matter.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. We didn't go
4 into it any further.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then a final question. Ms. Richterova,
6 you've asked the witness about the ethnicity of those kept in detention
7 centres. I didn't hear anything as to their status, in terms of military
8 or civilian. Was it on purpose that you didn't ask for it? Are you
9 informed that there's no information about it, or ...?
10 MS. RICHTEROVA: It was not on purpose. It's possible that I
11 omitted to ask this question, but nowhere I found any information on -- on
12 this. So if I am allowed to ask --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you're allowed to complete the examination-in-
14 chief in this respect.
15 MS. RICHTEROVA:
16 Q. Mrs. Malesevic, when you kept the records of people who were
17 detained, did you also pay attention to the status of these people, whether
18 they were civilians or whether they were soldiers?
19 A. Of course we paid attention to that. A very small number of
20 these people were arrested on a battlefield, and these are marked as such.
21 But the vast majority of the people were civilians, women, children, and so
23 Q. Are you able -- able to give us at least a percentage of those
24 who were kept as soldiers? Who were caught as soldiers?
25 A. I can't tell you that at present because I don't have this
1 information at hand, but I can tell you that it was a very small number.
2 MS. RICHTEROVA: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.
4 Cross-examined by Mr. Josse:
5 Q. Ms. Malesevic, I'd also like to ask you about the ethnicity of
6 your organisation. Who funds it, first of all, please?
7 A. After it was founded, nobody took over the foundation. For one
8 period, the government of the Federation set aside some funds which were
9 insufficient. As far as I know, nobody is funding it at present. What we
10 did was we engaged in publishing activities so as to earn something to
11 cover our minimum expenses, and then we also have membership fees, of
13 Q. And membership fees are paid by the former inmates; is that
15 A. Yes. Only those who can pay.
16 Q. And in terms of cooperation from the different ethnic groups that
17 make up Bosnia and Herzegovina, has there been equal cooperation from all
18 the ethnic parties?
19 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand your question. Are you referring
20 to the camp inmates?
21 Q. Let me -- yes, I am referring to the camp inmates, if that makes
22 it clear.
23 A. I can say that while I was active in the association, we did have
24 cooperation. We have much in common; for example, the status of inmates at
25 the level of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. We cooperated with
1 camp inmates from the Republika Srpska and camp inmates from the Croatian
2 part, as well.
3 Q. Because I was going to suggest that you don't get the cooperation
4 from those people who live in the Republika Srpska, Serbs in particular.
5 What do you say to that?
6 A. I can only speak of the period in which I was active. In certain
7 segments, for example, demands made to the government to resolve our status
8 issues, we did have joint action. Apart from that, the Association of Camp
9 Inmates drew up information on human rights violations from 1992 to 1995.
10 This was done jointly, and it was forwarded to the ministry. And the
11 cooperation was, in fact, much better than expected in this respect.
12 Q. Because you told us that your organisation was formed as a result
13 of there being a number of similar organisations, and the National Alliance
14 was an umbrella group; is that right?
15 A. Yes, it was at the level of the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
16 so that the information gathered at municipal level could be brought
17 together in one place, for purposes of research and so on.
18 Q. Have you heard of a man called Jovocic - I'll spell that if I
19 may: J-o-v-i-c-i-c-h - who is the vice-president of a Serbian camp inmates
20 group who was detained for a time in Tarcin prison?
21 A. Yes, of course. Not only have I heard of him, but I have met Mr.
22 Jovocic personally, and we cooperated together. What I can say, however,
23 is that the Association of Camp Inmates of Republika Srpska has more
24 prisoners of war than the association we represent, which represents, for
25 the most part, civilians, and there were some small misunderstandings in
1 this respect.
2 Q. And it is noticeable that in the statement to which the learned
3 Judge, Judge Orie, referred you to a few moments ago, as far as I can see,
4 the only Bosnian authority institution listed is, in fact, Tarcin prison,
5 at page 9, being item 8, in Sarajevo; is that right?
6 A. I have to say in this list of camps we have lists for 37
7 municipalities, and there are camps here which are missing that were under
8 Croatian control and so on, and maybe the young woman who drew up this list
9 omitted to put in Tarcin. But it was only for these 37 municipalities that
10 information was requested, which is why the list looks the way it does.
11 But I think in this case, it was an omission.
12 Q. Well, I don't want to be unfair in relation to that. In fact,
13 we've got the two additional documents, the one that has ERN number
14 04230148; that includes Tarcin, to be fair. I don't know whether you've
15 got that there.
16 A. Just a moment. This is what I was talking about a little while
17 ago. The colleague who was drawing up the list for the Sarajevo canton -
18 and we were dealing with camps under Serb control, as does Annex C - I
19 assume it was an omission. There is, however, a list of all camps,
20 regardless of whose control they were under, and there you can find both
21 Tarcin and Celebici and Fikret Abdic's camps, and so on.
22 Q. Excuse me my ignorance. Where were they, the two -- the last two
23 you mentioned? Were they -- were they in Sarajevo?
24 A. Tarcin was under Bosniak control, and it is on the territory of
25 the Sarajevo canton. Celebici was in Konjic; it was also under Bosniak
1 control. I mentioned this for the sake of illustration.
2 Q. Yes. And I want to ask you about Sarajevo. What information did
3 your organisation obtain about people who were detained within Sarajevo
4 during the course of the siege of that city?
5 A. I cannot answer this question because I think that at present we
6 do not have this information available. The Association of Camp Inmates is
7 a voluntary organisation. People join it voluntarily and volunteer to make
8 their statements about detention sites. I have no information that there
9 were such sites. I am not saying they didn't exist; I am just saying that
10 nobody came forward to tell us about them.
11 Q. I want to ask you specifically about -- and again, excuse me my
12 pronunciation - I'll spell it, if need be, but I think most people in this
13 courtroom are very familiar with this place - the Viktor Bubanj Barracks.
14 A. The Viktor Bubanj Barracks, as far as I know, was a traditional
15 type of jail. There were Serbs detained there, also 150 Bosniaks who had
16 been charged with crimes or had refused the mobilisation call. I was
17 interested in the Viktor Bubanj Barracks because of a colleague, Jovocic.
18 There were people of various ethnicities detained there and detained for
19 various reasons. That's what I know about it.
20 Q. And are you aware of a controversy that has arisen as to whether
21 a plaque commemorating those who were detained there could be placed at the
23 A. Yes. Yes, I am aware of it. But I cannot answer a question
24 about it because in Bosnia and Herzegovina there was no law on plaques.
25 There is no legislation defining such places officially, and that is why
1 there was a confrontation between camp inmates from the Republika Srpska
2 and camp inmates who live in Sarajevo. We did not want to come into
3 conflict with the authorities. I've told you what I knew about the Viktor
4 Bubanj Barracks; if it is confirmed that it was a camp for Serbs, then
5 nobody will object to their commemorating this in an appropriate way.
6 Q. That's very helpful, madam. You've answered my follow-up
7 question. It -- when you talk about "we," you mean the organisation you
9 A. I am referring to the camp inmates of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
10 Q. All right.
11 JUDGE ORIE: It's not entirely clear to me where you were
12 referring to when you were referring to "we," Mr. Josse. The last part of
13 the answer of the witness was about nobody.
14 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I thought I heard the word "we." It's
15 not on the transcript; I readily accept that. Perhaps I should clarify the
16 matter. I'm anxious to. I thought I'd move on, not to waste any more
17 time, but I --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's fine.
19 MR. JOSSE: I am anxious to clarify the matter if I will be
20 permitted to.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the matter is -- I have no need for
22 clarification. If, of course, the witness said something else, that should
23 be checked on the tape. But I didn't fully understand the question, as a
24 matter of fact, what you were referring to, but the answer of the witness
25 is such that would satisfy me as an answer. Please proceed.
1 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
2 Q. I want to ask you next about Prijedor. If we could look at
3 Prijedor in the list that you've got there, please, and I want to ask you
4 in particular about 25.6. You've told us that 25.6, as far as your records
5 are concerned, was, in fact, a detention centre; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are you able to tell us on what information you base that?
8 Because I suggest you're mistaken and that place was only a collection
10 A. I have to repeat: A place of detention in our view is every
11 place where civilians were brought by force and were -- where terror was
12 exercised over them, where they were beaten up, maltreated, and so on. As
13 for Trnopolje, it was active until a certain period. And throughout those
14 seven days, there were murders, there were rapes, beatings.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: One murder.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The people who were in Trnopolje
17 at the time bore witness to torture. That is what this is based on, the
18 fact that Trnopolje is listed as a detention centre.
19 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
20 MR. JOSSE:
21 Q. And presumably offhand you'd be unable to tell us how many of
22 your members were detained at that particular place.
23 A. In Trnopolje? I can't say precisely how many of our members were
24 there, but I think it was about 800 people.
25 Q. I'd also like to deal specifically with Pale, if I may, Ms.
1 Malesevic. Again, the documents that were referred to earlier - this time
2 it's ERN 04230146 that I'm referring to - lists detention facilities that
3 it's suggested were in Pale in 1992. Do you have that?
4 A. With Their Honours' leave, I've already said that I myself did
5 not prepare this document on Pale; it was my colleague, Ms. Muratcaus. So
6 I would beg not to have to answer this question because it wasn't I
7 personally who made this list.
8 Q. Yes. You did say that, and I didn't appreciate that fully.
9 You've -- you've explained that you've left the organisation. We see that
10 this document is dated June of this year. That's presumably why she
11 prepared it; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you're -- you're therefore not able to answer any questions
14 about Pale. I say that because I have some very specific instructions
15 about detention centres in Pale, but if you're not able to deal with them,
16 there's no point, subject to anything the learned Judge says, my putting
17 these matters to you. It's right, you've got no knowledge about Pale; is
18 that correct?
19 JUDGE ORIE: You have no personal knowledge about Pale detention
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would prefer not to answer
22 questions about Pale because I have not prepared for that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So you say you might have information available to
24 you, but it's not, I would say, actively in your memory at this moment.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely so.
1 MR. JOSSE:
2 Q. And would the same be true, madam, of Novi Grad?
3 A. Yes, it's also in the Sarajevo canton.
4 Q. Thank you. Two -- two or three other matters. It's right, as
5 you've told us -- and I don't want to dwell on this. But you were detained
6 by Croatian forces, Croatian civilians? What was it? If you don't want to
7 say, I understand, and I will not pursue this line. I really will
8 understand, and I will withdraw the question.
9 A. There's no reason for me not to answer. I was arrested by the
10 Croatian police.
11 Q. And detained by, effectively, police, rather than soldiers; is
12 that right?
13 A. The police, yes. But I must add that the police arrested me in
14 Kresevo. After Jajce was taken over by the Serb army, I found myself in
15 Kresevo as a refugee, and several months later the police arrested us, like
16 the other Bosniaks, in Kresevo.
17 Q. And I think you've said in your statement that initially you were
18 detained with Serbs but that they were released before you; is that
20 A. Yes. Yes. A certain number of Serbs were captured by the
21 Croatian police, and after some time, they were left and we were kept
23 Q. I think possibly -- I hope my last topic, Ms. Malesevic, relates
24 to compensation. Is the organisation, the Alliance, fighting for
25 compensation in any way for former inmates?
1 A. Yes, certainly. That was one of the priorities when the Alliance
2 of Inmates was established. We tried to do so through the law, but it was
3 very difficult. And the question is still open today; it hasn't been
4 solved. Then we took the decision at the second congress that we held
5 collectively to appeal for compensation, that is to say, material
6 remuneration, and that process is ongoing.
7 Q. And, if you can explain this simply, who are inmates to look to
8 for compensation?
9 A. The civilian inmates who lost their jobs, lost all their
10 property, movable and immovable, and that have suffered heavy
11 psychophysical consequences. They've lost their jobs, as I said, and so on
12 and so forth. And in Bosnia-Herzegovina, they don't have any rights, even
13 the right to treatment, medical treatment. So this was a way to draw
14 attention to that whole group of people.
15 Q. Yes. What I wanted to know is who was going to pay compensation
16 to former inmates or who it's hoped will pay compensation to former
18 A. To -- it was paid by the state, the entity to war -- to the POWs,
19 but not to civilians. So perhaps that is part of the question and my
20 answer with respect to Jovicic, perhaps it is easier for them because they
21 could have received some remuneration from their organisations. But we're
22 civilians, so there's nobody we can address this to.
23 Q. And that still remains the status at the moment? The civilians
24 don't have anyone to address their claim for compensation to?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And is there any talk from the government of Bosnia and
2 Herzegovina to set up some sort of compensation fund?
3 A. I don't have any information of that kind.
4 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
5 MR. JOSSE:
6 Q. My last matter is this: I've noticed, unfortunately, I don't
7 think this document has been circulated in the bundle that has been handed
8 out, but I think we can deal with it like this. It's right that there is
9 something called the Rules on Establishing the Status of Camp Prisoners of
10 Bosnia and Herzegovina, dated November of 2000? Do you know what I'm
11 referring to?
12 A. Yes, I do. In fact, they are rules on establishing the status of
13 camp prisoners of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is one of the basic
14 documents of the alliance. It has undergone certain amendments since it
15 was established, but it regulates the rules and regulations according to
16 who can be a member, and so on and so forth.
17 Q. And in your original statement, you also annexed - I think
18 originally it was at tab 5 of that statement - something called Research
19 and Documentation Centre Sarajevo, project, classification of places of
20 imprisonment of the citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and forms of
21 torture during the war 1992 to 1995. Are you aware of what I'm talking
22 about there?
23 A. Yes. Yes. Without the text -- that was a key project of the
24 Alliance of Inmates of Bosnia and Herzegovina, first of all on the basis of
25 which we list all the places of detention and describe them, and we were
1 going to hold an international conference after that for verification. At
2 the level of the state, this should be done. We expected once it came into
3 force or came into being -- we thought the status of inmates would be
4 speeded up, the settlement of their status, and we discussed this from our
5 colleagues of the RES. They were also interested in this, and I think that
6 the project will be completed at some point in time in the future.
7 Q. And the document is a very admirable setting-out of the project
9 At number 1 on the second page of the document, it says this:
10 "All nations and national minorities were victims of war, but the number of
11 Bosniaks show that they have suffered a very heavy form of war crime. That
12 is qualified as genocide according to the international standards."
13 Did you have any part in putting that particular sentence in
14 the document?
15 A. In a way. Well, you caught me unawares now, but it was teamwork.
16 But at any case, that is how it stands. That is what it says.
17 Q. Isn't that - and correct me if I'm wrong, Ms. Malesevic, of
18 course - exactly the type of statement that is going to effectively put
19 Serbs off cooperating with your organisation?
20 A. I'm afraid I might not have understood your question. Can the
21 truth divide us? Everything we're doing, I think we're doing to draw
22 closer together and to live together. So I'm afraid I might have
23 misunderstood you. But when it comes to genocide, the word was uttered,
24 and that was at this Tribunal, and I think that's normal. So we have to
25 tell the truth, regardless of who the perpetrators were, which ethnic
1 group, which nation was responsible, and so on and so forth.
2 Q. No, you -- you didn't understand me, and I say thank you.
3 MR. JOSSE: I've got no further questions.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Josse.
5 Mr. Krajisnik, would you have any additional questions?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honours. I
7 have no questions for this lady.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik.
9 Is there any need to re-examine the witness?
10 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour, I have only one clarification.
11 Re-examined by Ms. Richterova:
12 Q. Mrs. Malesevic, when the Defence counsel asked you about
13 Trnopolje, you said, "And throughout the seven days," such-and-such things
14 happened. Did you really say during seven days?
15 A. Yes, I did. I think it's a mistake.
16 Q. So what were you -- which period of time were you referring to?
17 Talking about Trnopolje.
18 A. When it comes to Trnopolje, Trnopolje was active from May to
19 December. I haven't got any notes, though. All this must be taken with a
20 few reservations. But I know from the reports I read and the witness is
21 testifying about the crimes, the torture and abuse, that Trnopolje was
22 truly a camp, a place of detention according to all our parameters.
23 JUDGE ORIE: There might be some confusion. Let me see whether
24 I can clarify it.
25 When you said, "And throughout those seven days," did you have
1 some specific seven days in mind, or did you want to refer to seven days a
2 week, just as we say 24 hours a day; that means full time?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I meant the specific
4 statement, where it said, "seven days of torture, abuse," and so on.
5 That's the last portion I read in preparing for my testimony.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
7 MS. RICHTEROVA: That's it. Thank you.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Canivell has one or more questions for you.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE CANIVELL: Thank you.
12 I would like to make clear that when you said that places in
13 which people were executed, you called them sites of execution, when all
14 the persons detained there were executed or even if some of the persons
15 retained or detained there survived, wasn't put to execution?
16 A. The execution sites that we denoted as such according to witness
17 testimony, all the people were killed.
18 JUDGE CANIVELL: Thank you. Another point I would like to know:
19 You have taken into consideration facts like the -- some of the people that
20 were detained in one location were later perhaps transferred to other
21 places, and so in the way that perhaps I wondered if you would be able to
22 make a calculation of the total amount of people that had been detained in
23 these camps under the Serbian authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
24 A. Unfortunately, we still do not have the exact figures, but it is
25 common knowledge that from Omarska, the camp -- the inmates were taken to
1 Manjaca and 400 to Batkovici on from there. So when we deal with all the
2 places and all the people passing through those places of detention, we'll
3 be able to see that they are three places and see the number of people
5 JUDGE CANIVELL: Thank you. Another point is: Had you been
6 able to establish a correlation between the number of people detained in
7 every municipality in relation with the number of Muslims living in those
9 A. I'm not sure I understood your question. I apologise.
10 JUDGE CANIVELL: I mean, if you had discovered if in every
11 municipality, every different municipality, the number of people detained
12 was similar that other places or you found that taking into consideration
13 the number of Muslims living in every municipality, the number of the
14 people detained were higher or lower in one or the others.
15 A. I didn't perform analysis of that kind, but the assumption is
16 that it was proportionately the same, with respect to the total number.
17 JUDGE CANIVELL: There's another question I would like to pose to
18 you: Would you be able to say that the higher number of detained people
19 was around 1992, later on, or when?
20 A. 1992 was the year when there were most number of detainees.
21 After that, they either moved out or were moved out, but 1992 was the peak
22 year when the largest numbers of the population were detained.
23 JUDGE CANIVELL: Could you -- had you been able to find
24 differences on the ways people finished their stay in these camps? I mean,
25 for instance, how much people, what proportion of those people were killed,
1 were released, were exchanged, were liberated? You have had any
2 calculation about that?
3 A. I do, but not right with me here. But I'll try and give you an
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just ask you: I see that you're consulting
6 a document. Could you tell us what document you are consulting so that we
7 know. Are these personal notes, or is this...?
8 A. May I show it?
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, no, that's clear. It's the schedule, that has
11 been -- Schedule C that has been presented to you. Yes.
12 A. Yes, Schedule C.
13 What I can tell you is this: We're talking about camps where
14 they were killed en masse. For example, the KP Dom in Foca. Of the 700
15 detainees, 322 were killed. In Vuk Karadzic school of Bratunac, about 700
16 detainees there and about 400 were killed, and so on. The gunpowder
17 warehouse, for instance. Well, I haven't prepared myself for that, but in
18 some places of detention, like Prijedor and Omarska, people were liquidated
19 en masse. Celopek is another case in point, and so on.
20 JUDGE CANIVELL: Were people that were put in Omarska or
21 Trnopolje or other of those more numerous where people were detained were
22 brought from other locations in different municipalities to be there and
23 later on had been killed?
24 A. Perhaps from the surrounding villages: Kljuc, Sanski Most. But
25 otherwise, it was the local inhabitants in the case of Prijedor. Whereas,
1 Batkovici, the inmates were from all over Bosnia-Herzegovina, just like
2 Manjaca, for instance.
3 JUDGE CANIVELL: Thank you very much, witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Since Judge Hanoteau has no questions for you,
5 neither do I.
6 I first ask the parties whether the questions of Judge Canivell
7 have triggered any need to further --
8 MR. JOSSE: Not from the Defence, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Not from the Defence.
10 MS. RICHTEROVA: Not from the Prosecution.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Ms. Malesevic, this concludes your testimony
12 in this court. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and
13 to answer the questions of the parties and the questions put to you by the
14 Bench. I wish you a safe trip home again.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you please escort Ms. Malesevic
17 out of the courtroom.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could we go through the exhibits.
20 MS. RICHTEROVA: Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Richterova, no statement has been tendered of
22 the witness, although it's on the list, isn't it?
23 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm just -- I would like to tender this
24 statement dated 15 and 16 of October 2001.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, this is a bit late. So the
1 Defence only now, although they could have known that, Ms. Richterova, had
2 them on the list of potential exhibits. But in cross-examination they
3 could have refrained from certain questions because they thought that the
4 statement was not in evidence. Therefore, I specifically ask whether
5 there's any objection.
6 MR. JOSSE: Can I have one moment, please?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I'm glad to say Mr. Stewart and I are
12 of the same mind, which is this: I have no objection in relation to this
13 particular witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. JOSSE: The -- these statements, bearing in mind their
16 contents, do not bother us, and we're happy for the Trial Chamber to have
17 them. But this is no concession that in other circumstances our stance
18 wouldn't be completely different.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I think I already explained to Ms. Richterova that
20 this is procedural -- not the proper course of action.
21 MS. RICHTEROVA: And I apologise, Your Honour --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MS. RICHTEROVA: -- that I didn't tender it at an earlier stage.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that should be the routine, at least
25 if you want to tender.
1 Now, if we're talking about statement or statements ...
2 MS. RICHTEROVA: I'm referring only to one statement.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, one statement only. And that would be the
4 October statement?
5 MS. RICHTEROVA: It is a statement dated 15 and 16 October 2001
6 with the ERN number 0211-6884 to 6897.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Richterova.
8 Madam Registrar, including this document, we would then have
10 THE REGISTRAR: P884 to P888.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Since I hear no objections, they are
12 admitted into evidence.
13 I have one further observation for you, Mr. Josse: You put a
14 question to the witness whether -- you put it to her, as a matter of fact,
15 that Trnopolje was not a detention centre but, rather, a collection centre.
16 You did not give it much follow-up when the witness explained that. The
17 Defence is fully entitled to challenge any fact that is adopted as an
18 adjudicated fact, but I wondered where the adjudicated facts say that
19 thousands of prisoners were held, that armed soldiers guarded the camp,
20 that the area -- an area - not the area but an area - of Trnopolje camp was
21 surrounded by barbed wire, that there were more rapes at this camp than at
22 any other camp, whether this approach would be the beginning of a
23 challenging of adjudicated facts, especially where it's also part of the
24 adjudicated facts that Trnopolje was at times, at least, an open prison,
25 although it was dangerous for inmates to be found outside where they might
1 be attacked by hostile groups in the neighbourhood, and this in effect
2 amounted to imprisonment in the camp. I wondered whether under those
3 circumstances -- of course, it could be the beginning of challenging that,
4 but it was not perfectly clear to the Chamber.
5 MR. JOSSE: The Trial Chamber will have to excuse my ignorance,
6 but I'm not clear in the context of this Chamber and Tribunal what an
7 adjudicated fact is, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, an adjudicated fact is a fact which is
9 established by another Chamber after the matter has been fully litigated.
10 The parties can propose the Chamber to adopt adjudicated facts, which
11 should be facts and not matters of law. And then after an exchange of
12 views between the parties, the Chamber decides whether or not it will adopt
13 that fact as an adjudicated fact, which does not mean that it's there
14 forever but you'll also understand that, first of all, one of the
15 consequences is that the Prosecution has no need to further prove that fact
16 but, of course, the Defence is in a position to challenge the fact. But
17 you'll also understand that if this fact has been established on the basis
18 of a fully litigated -- in a fully litigated way, that it needs a bit more
19 effort than just challenging another fact would need.
20 MR. JOSSE: Could I say two things: First of all, I mean this
21 very genuinely. I'm very grateful for Your Honour's explanation.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. JOSSE: And my apologies for not knowing that.
24 Secondly, of course, I didn't -- it follows from what I've just
25 asked Your Honour, I didn't know it was an adjudicated fact.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. JOSSE: Thirdly, though I'm not anxious to go into matters of
3 privilege, clearly it was a result of a short conversation with Mr.
4 Krajisnik. It may have been a misunderstanding on my part, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. JOSSE: And I have insufficient knowledge, as was quite
7 clear, I fear, from the way I asked the questions, to pursue the matter any
9 Whether it's something we're going to pursue further is
10 something I will -- I see Mr. Krajisnik putting his hand up, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. JOSSE: And that's something I need to discuss with him and
13 Mr. Stewart.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think, as a matter of fact, that you
15 clearly said at that moment - but let me just - well, it was in my mind
16 somewhere that you said that you were instructed. But I'll leave that
17 apart. That's not something to be raised at this moment.
18 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour I'd ask like --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. STEWART: -- to just briefly say something. First of all,
21 clearly I have absolutely no complaint about what Mr. Josse has just said
22 because if it's anybody's responsibility to fill him in on what adjudicated
23 facts were, it was mine. I'd just like to make it clear, Your Honour, I
24 actually do believe I know what adjudicated facts are, but then I've been
25 here rather a long time. But if I had done the cross-examination, there's
1 no chance this issue would have come up because there's no chance I would
2 have had enough time to explore that or unearth that adjudicated fact
3 anyway, so Mr. Josse has covered the cross-examination at least as
4 thoroughly as I would have done anyway. Because in the circumstances of
5 this case, Your Honour, it is just impossible for the Defence team to
6 follow these highways and byways in this matter. So -- well, there we are,
7 Your Honour. That's the way it is.
8 Your Honour has consistently said that -- something along the
9 lines of perfection is not required, that a robust approach has to be
10 adopted, Your Honour. Sometimes the robust approach has to be rather too
11 robust in these circumstances, but I do wish to make that clear, Your
12 Honour. It is simply impossible for us to do this, so these slight flaws
13 in cross-examinations are going to emerge whether it's Mr. Josse, whether
14 it's me, whether it's Ms. Loukas. It's absolutely inevitable.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's on the record, Mr. Stewart.
16 I think, as a matter of fact, that I wanted to draw the
17 attention to this specific issue, where I felt that it might not have been
18 fully clear.
19 Mr. Krajisnik, you'd like to add something? The Chamber is
20 aware that how free people were to leave or not to leave Trnopolje is a
21 matter that has been in other cases extensively dealt with.
22 Mr. Krajisnik.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I think
24 you've explained it all, more or less. However, I wish to be fair. I
25 completely forgot about adjudicated facts. I suggested to Mr. Josse that
1 Trnopolje was an open collection centre and that he should note that. And,
2 in fact, it is our intention to prove that in our case, so that it's not
3 Mr. Josse's fault, if I can put it that way, because I didn't know about
4 the adjudicated facts and the procedure linked to that. I just wanted to
5 show what we were going to prove to the Court in due course. So thank you
6 for giving us your explanations. That is the legal explanations. It is a
7 legal matter, and it is not quite along the lines of what I thought as
8 being the subject of discussion in future.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, all being on the right track again, is there
10 any other procedural issue to be raised at this moment?
11 Mr. Tieger.
12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Very briefly. On Monday,
13 the Prosecution will seek approximately 15 minutes, I would estimate, to
14 raise matters in connection with the cross-examination of Witness
15 Davidovic. I raise that for two reasons: Number one, for the simple -- to
16 foreshadow a simple scheduling matter; and number two, because he was Mr. -
17 - or he was Ms. Loukas's witness, and I have been advised that she may not
18 be planning to be present next week or during the remainder of the case. I
19 wanted to raise it so that the Defence would have an opportunity to alert
20 her if she did want to be present for that.
21 MR. STEWART: Yes. I think, Your Honour, in fact Ms. Loukas --
22 she will be here, anyway, on Monday because she is handling Mr. Brown.
23 What Mr. Tieger says applies beyond Mr. Brown. But -- but Ms. Loukas is
24 taking Mr. Brown.
25 MR. TIEGER: Then I raised it for a simple scheduling reason in
1 that case.
2 MR. STEWART: Yes, that's understood.
3 MR. TIEGER: And I would remind the Court that today, as has
4 been our recent history, is dossier day.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. TIEGER: And we would like therefore to tender the Zvornik
8 JUDGE ORIE: Zvornik dossier. And then I take it it will be
9 physically distributed?
10 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's there. Until now, the dossier, of
12 course, most important is that Madam Registrar receives directly a copy.
13 But usually the other copies find their way to those interested.
14 The provisional number to be assigned to it would be, Madam
15 Registrar ...?
16 THE REGISTRAR: The Zvornik dossier will be Prosecution Exhibit
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 Any other issue, Mr. Tieger?
20 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Any issue to be raised by the Defence?
22 MR. STEWART: No, thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We will then adjourn until next Monday, quarter
1 past 2.00 in this same courtroom, number 1.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.34 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of
4 July, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.