1 Thursday, 21 July 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Mr. Margetts, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness?
11 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, the Prosecution calls Witness
12 KRAJ 682.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then protective measures are face distortion,
14 voice distortion, pseudonym, and private session for identifying portions
15 of his evidence.
16 Then I think for the witness to enter the courtroom we have to
17 pull down the curtains.
18 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, it occurs so me while we're waiting
19 there is a small matter. It might be useful just to use the time.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. STEWART: That was that question of the -- the revised
22 material in relation to those three exhumation experts. Your Honour, the
23 position was we -- we received that in our locker, well, no earlier than
24 Monday and -- and we think Monday.
25 Your Honour, there shouldn't be very much difficulty if that were
1 acceptable to the Trial Chamber and my dealing with it in the course of
2 the next week. But, Your Honour, strong preference for not dealing with
3 this week if that were acceptable to the Chamber.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, we are close to the -- to the date
5 where the Prosecution will close its case. But if we have a few of these
6 loose ends which are mainly to be dealt with, I wouldn't say at an
7 administrative level but at least to give decisions, it needs to further
8 Court time. I take it we will hear the position of the Defence on it, and
9 most likely we'll be able to give a decision without -- without any
10 further oral arguments. So as such, it would not be a major problem, I
11 would think. But, of course, I -- I'm hesitating between two things,
12 first, to hurry up, and, second, to take your time during the recess.
13 MR. STEWART: Well, thank you, Your Honour. We'll see about all
14 that probably.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness 682. Can you hear me in a
17 language you understand?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 682, we'll not call you by your own name.
20 We'll use as a pseudonym 682. Your face cannot be seen by the outside
21 world. Your own voice cannot be heard by the outside world. And whenever
22 we'll deal with anything that could reveal your identity, we'd go into
23 private session so that even the content of your testimony could not be
25 Witness 682, before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of
1 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that
2 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. May I
3 invite you to make that solemn declaration of which the text is now handed
4 out to you by Madam Usher.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Witness 682, please be seated.
8 May I remind the parties to switch off their microphones when the
9 witness speaks.
10 Mr. Margetts, you may proceed.
11 You'll -- Witness 682, you'll first be examined by Mr. Margetts,
12 counsel for the Prosecution.
13 You may proceed, Mr. Margetts.
14 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if the pseudonym sheet could be
15 presented to the witness.
16 WITNESS: WITNESS 682
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Examined by Mr. Margetts:
19 MR. MARGETTS: Could the pseudonym sheet be given an exhibit
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Why not ask the witness whether his name and
22 date of birth appear correctly on that without giving any further
24 Does it appear correctly, Witness 682?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number ...?
2 THE REGISTRAR: P916, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
4 MR. MARGETTS:
5 Q. Witness, on the 8th of April, 1992, did you receive information
6 that you and your family should leave Zvornik city? And for reasons
7 related to your protective measures, if you could just simply answer that
8 question either yes or no.
9 A. No. But I left on the 8th of April and I moved my family out.
10 Q. On the 8th of April, did you take your wife out of Zvornik city
11 to Serbia?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And having taken your wife to Serbia, did you then return to
14 Zvornik city?
15 A. Yes. On that very same day.
16 Q. Was Zvornik city taken over on the 8th of April, 1992?
17 A. No. It was on the 9th.
18 Q. And on the 9th of April, 1992, did you and other members of your
19 family and some Muslim neighbours leave and go to Serbia?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And on the 13th of April, 1992, did you return to your house in
22 Zvornik city?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When you returned on the 13th of April, 1992, were you mobilised?
25 A. I reported to the Crisis Staff and at that time I only performed
1 guard duties outside in the streets, yes.
2 Q. Where was the Crisis Staff located on the 13th of April, 1992?
3 A. In the Alhos factory in Karakaj.
4 Q. When you reported to the Alhos factory, who did you meet with
5 first and what did they direct you to do?
6 A. They told me that these guard duties should be organised. There
7 weren't many inhabitants, so it was necessary for patrols to be organised
8 in the area in which they lived.
9 Q. Sorry, Witness. I asked you two questions in one there. Can you
10 answer this question: When you went to the Alhos factory, who did you
11 meet with first?
12 A. I met the secretary, Stevo Radic, who told me that I should
13 report to Zuco, which I did. He said that these guard duties were being
14 organised in the neighbourhoods that we lived in and there weren't many
15 inhabitants who had remained in Zvornik. They were of various ethnic
16 groups, and it was necessary to do this.
17 Q. You described Stevo Radic as the secretary. Was he the secretary
18 of the Crisis Staff?
19 A. Even before the war he worked in the municipality. He was a
20 secretary - that's what I said - because he issued those passes. You'd
21 have to contact him for passes and for authority to move around the town
22 and to move out of the town if you wanted to go to Yugoslavia. So he was
23 involved in administrative matters and that is why I said that he was the
25 Q. And he informed you that you should report to Zuco. Is Zuco the
1 nickname of a man by the name of Vojin Vuckovic?
2 A. Yes. Yes.
3 Q. And you -- and you did, in fact, report to Zuco, didn't you?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Where was Zuco located when you reported to him?
6 A. Zuco was on the first floor, the last door to the left. That's
7 where he had an office and that's where people would go to see him. One
8 had to pass by the duty officer to see him, and across -- opposite the
9 office there was an office in which Stevo Radic performed his
10 administrative duties. So I went there, reported to him, and he said that
11 it was necessary to organise things to ensure that everything was orderly
12 in the town. He said that he wanted to prevent accidents from occurring,
13 as we inhabitants knew what the situation was. I went to see him. I said
14 that there were Muslims in the neighbourhood, that there were very few
15 Serbs there, so I and the Muslims went on patrol together. I was
16 accompanied with another Muslim when we went on patrol. He said that it
17 didn't matter if there was a Muslim who went on patrol too because he was
18 living there at the time too. That's what he said at the time and that
19 was, in fact, the case.
20 Q. And when you described the location of Zuco's office and Stevo
21 Radic's office, those offices were located in the Alhos building; is that
23 A. Yes, on the first floor.
24 Q. Do you know the late Sejfudin Hadziefendic?
25 A. Yes. Sejfudin, he was a locksmith in Zvornik, a fairly prominent
1 and respected man, and he was an honest man. Some people took him to the
2 Crisis Staff together with his son. At the time, I was leaving - I don't
3 know what the date was; I was leaving the Crisis Staff at the time - it
4 was around 8.00 or 9.00 in the evening. Night was already falling. I
5 couldn't see who was in the car. They asked me whether I knew who the
6 person in the car was and I said, "No, I don't know him. I can't
7 recognise him if I can't see him." When I saw him, I greeted Sejfudin.
8 And as I said he was a very honest man. And that's what I said. I said
9 they shouldn't take him away, they should apologise to him. After the war
10 when Sejfudin came to see me, he said that they took him home and
11 apologised to him. I don't know what happened to him after that, though,
12 nor do I know what happened after he left Zvornik.
13 Q. Did that meeting with Sejfudin Hadziefendic occur in April 1992
14 after you'd reported to the Crisis Staff?
15 A. Yes. It was between the 14th and the 22nd. It was during that
16 eight- to ten-day period. But I can't remember the exact date.
17 Q. Do you know why Sejfudin was being brought to the Crisis Staff
18 when you met him?
19 A. No, I don't know.
20 Q. Did Biljana Plavsic visit Zvornik in April 1992?
21 A. I know that she visited the place on one occasion. She was
22 accompanied by Princess Karadjordjevic at the time, because as far as I
23 know, she was -- Mrs. Plavsic was a royalist and so she liked to associate
24 with such individuals.
25 Q. When she visited Zvornik, did she attend the Alhos factory?
1 A. She went to the Alhos factory. I was in another department at
2 the time. When they closed the door, they said we couldn't go out into
3 the corridor because Biljana Plavsic was coming. And that's why I know
4 that she came. But I did not see her on that occasion.
5 Q. Were you informed who she met with when she visited the Alhos
7 A. Marko Pavlovic was there. There were some others who came to the
8 meeting too. Probably Mr. Brano Grujic as well. I don't know what they
9 discussed because it was all done behind closed doors. So I really don't
10 know who was present there.
11 Q. And -- and just to be clear, was this in mid to late April 1992?
12 A. I think it was in mid April, before the 27th, before they went to
14 Q. In early May 1992, did the Crisis Staff move from the Alhos
15 building in Karakaj to the post office building in the centre of Zvornik
17 A. It moved across the road from the post office, which is where the
18 Ministry of the Defence and the TO Staff had been before the war. It
19 moved to that building at the beginning of May or the end of April. I
20 can't remember the exact date, but when I reported to the Crisis Staff, to
21 the TO Staff, well, I reported to them at the beginning of May and they
22 moved a few days -- they had already moved. That was a few days after
24 Q. Can you tell the Court who Aco Sekanic is and the position he
25 occupied from April 1992.
1 A. Aco Sekanic. That's his name. He was in the TO Staff and at the
2 time I think he was the assistant commander or something like that, but
3 I'm not 100 per cent sure.
4 Q. When the Zvornik Brigade was formed, was he the duty officer for
5 the Zvornik Brigade?
6 A. When the brigade was formed, the duty officers would change every
7 24 hours. And there was also a junior duty officer. And these two
8 officers would change in the course of 24 hours. So he was there and he
9 was on duty occasionally. That depended on the schedule. So there were
10 others who also had such a position, other officers in the brigade staff.
11 Q. On or around 4 May 1992, did you meet Aco Sekanic in town and did
12 he direct you to report to Marko Pavlovic?
13 A. Yes. He told me to report to the staff, to report to the
14 commander in order to be assigned duties and in order to act in accordance
15 with my establishment. I said that that wasn't a problem; I'd no longer
16 be on guard duty; I should report there. And I reported there that
17 evening, as he said I should do, and the commander then told me that I
18 should turn up in uniform if I had a uniform. And if I didn't have a
19 uniform that I would receive one. He said, "Come in the morning and you
20 will be assigned your duties." That's what I did. I reported in the
21 morning. They told me to come at 7.00 in the morning. They weren't there
22 because they were involved in some sort of combat task. Later on I found
23 out they went towards Satnija and to Nezuk. I spent the entire day
24 waiting for them. Up until 6.00 I was on assigned duty. They said "Turn
25 up in the morning," and --
1 Q. If I could just stop you there before you explain any further.
2 I'll just have a couple of clarifying questions and then we may go into
3 private session. It's also just indicated to me that you're being
4 simultaneously translated and it's -- it would be helpful to the
5 translators if you could just slow down the speed of your speech.
6 So just one question. You referred to the commander. When you
7 referred to the commander, were you referring to Marko Pavlovic, who at
8 that time was the commander of the TO Staff?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if we could go into private session.
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.
12 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
7 MR. MARGETTS: Now, Your Honour, I'd like to refer to witness now
8 to the document that is at tab 1 of the presentation binder, and if that
9 document could be given an exhibit number.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P918, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 MR. MARGETTS:
14 Q. Witness, can you have a look at that map that's been presented to
15 you and can you confirm that both the Novi Standard factory and the Alhos
16 factory are correctly labeled and that is their locations represented
17 there in the Karakaj industrial area?
18 A. I can confirm that. It is correctly indicated on the map where
19 Novi Standard and Alhos factories are. Because all the other companies
20 located in the area are correctly marked, Glinica, Spaglum [phoen],
21 plywood factory, et cetera.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, just -- we are early in the testimony
24 now. If these factories would have been located 300 metres to the north
25 or 200 metres to the west, would that have changed anything? I mean, the
1 witness says where they gathered. From his statement, at least, I do not
2 find that -- the exact location and the positions, one to another, are of
3 any great relevance.
4 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour. Contained within this witness's
5 testimony there -- there is no argument the Prosecution would like to
6 make. However, there could be some submission that the Prosecution will
7 make in relation to the position of the command of the Zvornik Brigade.
8 [Realtime transcript read in error "Mr. Stewart: Yes."]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, of course, I do not know what's --
10 what's going to be there. But exact locations without follow-up somewhere
11 and giving it a greater weight than it seems to have at this moment would
12 not assist the Chamber.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. Just at this moment I'd just
15 like to indicate that there -- this map has appeared before the Trial
16 Chamber before, and I think it -- from memory, it was Exhibit P677, where
17 the actual location was of some significance. And later we may be
18 relating this Exhibit P918 to that previous exhibit.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that it must have been another map because
22 it's now been assigned. We saw a map of Zvornik. And let's not spend too
23 much time. I -- I just want to invite you not to go in details which do
24 not add anything to the core of the testimony.
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I just observe I'm recorded on the
1 transcript at line 7 as having said "yes." Now, I do occasionally say yes
2 but I was going through one of my very quiet spells there, Your Honour,
3 and actually said nothing at all for quite a few minutes. So I don't know
4 how that rogue affirmative has crept in.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You made it up now by these remarks, Mr. Stewart. I
6 take it three lines for saying that you didn't say yes. Please proceed
7 Mr. -- it's correct that it's a rogue.
8 MR. STEWART: Yes, I agree. With a fourth line, Your Honour,
9 yes, I did.
10 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Witness, if you could return to map to the court usher.
12 I'd now like to ask you a few questions about Mr. Marko Pavlovic,
13 the TO Staff commander. Is Marko Pavlovic the real name of the gentleman
14 who was the commander of the Territorial Defence, or was this an alias?
15 A. At that time, we all knew him as Marko Pavlovic; however, I
16 learnt later that his real name was Branislav Popovic. They said it was
17 his real name, but I think that even that is not his real name because
18 many people appeared under various aliases. They did not tell their real
19 name. Others were called by nickname. With this person, it was the case
20 that everybody addressed him as Marko Pavlovic without really knowing what
21 his name was.
22 Q. When was Marko Pavlovic appointed commander of the Territorial
23 Defence? And for how long did he continue to occupy this position?
24 A. He was appointed on the 27th of April in the afternoon or in the
25 evening, after their return from Kula. A meeting was held where he was
1 appointed commander of the TO. That was on the 27th of April. And he
2 remained commander all the way up to August, regardless of the fact that
3 the brigade was set up sometime in the beginning of July.
4 MR. MARGETTS: I'm now going to refer to a series of documents
5 that refer to Marko Pavlovic, and if the witness could be shown the
6 document that appears at tab 2 in the presentation binder.
7 Q. And I direct the witness's attention to, first of all, the
8 listing at paragraph 3. And just for reference, this -- this document
9 already has an exhibit number. It's Exhibit P664.
10 I direct the witness's attention first to paragraph 3. And
11 there's the name that appears at item 2, and that's Stevo Radic. Is that
12 the Stevo Radic that we previously referred to in your evidence?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And I also refer you to paragraph 4 and to the listing at
15 paragraph -- at point 2, item 2, and that is Marko Pavlovic. Is that the
16 Marko Pavlovic that we previously referred to?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you, Witness. I've finished with that document.
19 MR. MARGETTS: If the witness could now be shown the document
20 which is at number -- tab 5. And this document already has the exhibit
21 number P865A.
22 Q. Witness, I'll first -- this is a document which is dated the 30th
23 of May, 1992 and it's from the commander of the East Bosnia Corps Nikola
24 Dencic, and it's directed to the Zvornik Territorial Defence headquarters.
25 I'll first refer you to paragraph 3, and there's a reference in there to
1 someone referred to as Major Marko - Branko Popovic. In light to have
2 answer you've previously given in respect of Marko Pavlovic's use of an
3 alias, is this a reference to the TO Staff commander Marko Pavlovic?
4 A. Yes. There is a reference to him. I told you I didn't know he
5 was appointed liaison officer but he was in the same place, on the same
6 job, at the same time when the Zvornik Brigade was established and he
7 performed the same duties as when he was commander of the TO and the TO
8 headquarters was across the street from the post office.
9 Q. Are you able to explain this to the Court: The document here
10 states that "The Zvornik Territorial Defence headquarters is to be
11 transformed into the command of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade." But as I
12 understand it, what in fact occurred was that there was the continued
13 operation of the Zvornik Territorial Defence Staff and command
14 headquarters and it operated alongside the command of the Zvornik Brigade.
15 Is -- is that what your -- is that what you've told the Court this
17 A. Yes. They worked on parallel tracks. (redacted)
22 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if we could have that answer redacted
23 from the transcript. Sorry, I don't mean redacted. I mean if that could
24 not be available to the public.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar is instructed to make the
1 necessary redaction.
2 MR. STEWART: What's -- the whole answer is being redacted or --
3 or what? I'm not absolutely clear.
4 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, possibly if we could go into private
5 session I could assist in an explanation of why it's necessary to redact
6 that answer.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.
8 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.
7 MR. MARGETTS:
8 Q. Witness, you referred to the fact that the TO Staff and the
9 Zvornik Brigade command worked along parallel tracks. Was it possible for
10 the Zvornik Brigade commanders and also for Marko Pavlovic, as the TO
11 Staff commander, to issue orders to the military units in Zvornik?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'd now like to refer to the document
14 at tab 6. If that could be assigned an exhibit number.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P919, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. This is a certificate which has been issued by the commander
20 Lieutenant Colonel Slobodan Vasilic. It's dated the 22nd of August, 1992,
21 and it confirms the engagement of Marko Pavlovic in the Serbian army.
22 First of all, who was Colonel Slobodan Vasilic?
23 A. Colonel Slobodan Vasilic was the second commander of the Zvornik
24 Infantry Brigade, because the first one to be appointed was Vidoje
25 Blagojevic. Vasilic was the second one to be appointed and he's writing a
1 certificate here stating that the person in question is engaged in the
2 Serbian army, but I wish to note that this is the date when he actually
3 left. From -- left Zvornik, left the area.
4 Q. Witness, you've explained clearly the fact that the TO Staff
5 command and the Zvornik Brigade command were able -- both able to issue
6 orders to the units in the area and that they worked on parallel tracks.
7 Looking at that certificate, can you explain why it is that it's confirmed
8 that Marko Pavlovic was in the Serbian army, and -- and is that consistent
9 or inconsistent with your understanding of his status?
10 A. Every certificate of this kind that was issued was meant to
11 justify absence from one's workplace. It meant that a person cannot be
12 dismissed, let go, when they have such a certificate. Their work, their
13 job had to wait for them. That is why such a certificate was issued to
14 every soldier and every officer, to confirm that they are engaged in the
16 Q. Do you know where Marko Pavlovic worked before he came to Zvornik
17 and what his background was?
18 A. From what I learned after he left, he used to work in Vrbas or
19 Sombor, in the oil-processing industry. But after he left Zvornik, I
20 never met him again. So I don't know where he is now and what he came to.
21 Q. Do you know whether he was involved with any intelligence
23 A. Well, when we were in detention in Bijeljina, he was brought too
24 subsequently and he told the policeman that he was a warrant officer by
25 rank and he told them his real name. That's how we found out his real
1 name. Until then, we didn't know who he really was or what his job was.
2 Q. I specifically mentioned whether or not he was in the
3 intelligence service. You referred to the fact that he was a warrant
4 officer by rank. Do you know what unit or -- or what division of the army
5 he was engaged in, and which army?
6 A. He was an intelligence officer, maybe of the former Yugoslavia,
7 but he was either an intelligence or a counter-intelligence officer. But
8 he was what we used to know as a civilian employee of the intelligence
9 service. It is certain that he could not have had the rank of warrant
10 officer if he had only worked in the FRY. He had to have been engaged
11 earlier while the SFRY was still in existence.
12 Q. Now, as I say, I don't wish to belabour this point, but when we
13 referred to that certificate which is still before you - and it's Exhibit
14 P919 from tab 6 - there's a reference to his engagement with the Serbian
15 army. And you've clearly said that the TO Staff and the Zvornik Brigade
16 command worked parallel. Both could order the units in Zvornik. This
17 certificate indicates some formal engagement of Marko Pavlovic with the
18 Serbian army. Is that consistent with your understanding or is that
19 inconsistent with your understanding? Was he or was he not formally
20 engaged with the Serbian army? And if he wasn't, then what was his
21 relationship to the Republika Srpska army?
22 A. I'm not sure I understand the question, but I'll try to answer.
23 He was engaged in the Army of Republika Srpska and the TO Staff, and I
24 think that throughout the time he cooperated with both and came to
25 briefings and contacted commanders. But what the exact relationship was,
1 I don't know. All I know is that both issued orders.
2 Again, I'm saying that I am not sure I understood your question
3 correctly. I hope I gave you a proper answer.
4 Q. Yes. Witness, that -- that was the topic that I was looking for
5 further information on, and so I thank you for that answer.
6 Earlier in your evidence you referred to the fact that you left
7 Zvornik on the 9th of April and you took two Muslim neighbours with you
8 into Serbia. Did Marko Pavlovic visit the house where these Muslim
9 neighbours were in Serbia and did he make contact with these Muslims for
10 any reason?
11 A. One of those Muslims used to work in the Ministry of the
12 Interior, that is, in the police. And when he heard on the radio that all
13 employees of the police and various other services should report to work
14 to perform their wartime assignments, he went to Zvornik to the Crisis
15 Staff, where he saw Marko Pavlovic first, because he had to report to him,
16 and since he is a native of Kula and has family there, this Muslim man
17 really went to see him and talk to him about negotiating the release of
18 some people who had been detained on the road between Divic and Drinjaca.
19 At the moment of the conversation, they were in detention. So he talked
20 to Marko Pavlovic. Marko Pavlovic took him to the house where these
21 people were kept. And on that occasion, he also saw my father, and those
22 two men stayed actually in my father's house. And even the wife of one of
23 those men who had telephoned was also in that house.
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I raise an issue on the transcript
25 of the translation. At page 21, line 25, there was -- the tail end of an
1 answer from the witness was: "All I know is that both issued orders."
2 He's referring -- well, we can see what he's referring to. Mr. Karganovic
3 informs me that a more apt translation of what the witness actually said
4 in Serbian would have been that they issued orders to each other. I make
5 no comment at all on the content, but -- but that's what Mr. Karganovic
6 tells me about what was actually said in Serbian.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts.
8 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour. If I could seek
9 clarification from the witness possibly on that matter.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if the interpreters would have any
11 comment, because we highly appreciate the assistance of Mr. Karganovic
12 but, of course, finally it's the interpreters who have the final word.
13 But let's first seek clarification with the witness. And if
14 there remains anything unclear, then we could ask the interpreters.
15 MR. MARGETTS:
16 Q. Witness, I must apologise to you for a second time about this
17 matter relating to the command authority of Marko Pavlovic in that
18 Territorial Defence Staff and the command authority of the Zvornik Brigade
19 commanders. Learned counsel for the Defence has noted that possibly there
20 was an interpretation error in one of the answers you previously gave, and
21 that was this -- and so I'll ask you a question directed to this issue,
22 and that is: Is it the case that the -- that Marko Pavlovic could issue
23 orders to the command of the Zvornik Brigade and also could the command of
24 the Zvornik Brigade issue orders to Marko Pavlovic?
25 A. My answer was this: Both of them issued orders to the
1 subordinates and what their mutual relationship was, whether one issued
2 orders to the other, that I don't know, but they both issued orders to us
3 soldiers about what to do. Whether Marko Pavlovic issued orders to Vidoje
4 Blagojevic or vice versa is something I don't know. They had their own
5 internal briefings and arrangements and whether they had some distribution
6 of work amongst themselves, I cannot tell you because I didn't attend
7 their meetings.
8 Q. Thank you, Witness. That fully clarifies the -- the issue.
9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I think -- I suggest fewer comment
10 from Mr. Margetts this morning following answers from the witness would be
11 appreciated. It's been a number of comment this is morning. I know it's
12 easy for them to slip out from counsel, but we would prefer that they
13 didn't appear.
14 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, in my defence I'd say the first
15 comment was elicited by a question from the witness as to whether or not
16 his answer fully answered my question. The second one, perhaps my friend
17 has a -- has a point, and I will desist, unless specifically questioned by
18 the witness for some confirmation in relation to his answer.
19 Your Honour, if we could move into private session.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We will.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 16885-16897 redacted. Private session.
8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE ORIE: It's confirmed on my screen, Mr. Margetts. Please
11 MR. MARGETTS:
12 Q. Prior to the formation of the Zvornik Brigade, that is, during
13 the course of April and May 1992, under whose command was Zuco and his
15 A. At the time, since there was the TO Staff, it was under the TO
16 Staff during that period of time, until the brigade was formed.
17 Q. Once the brigade was formed, under whose command was Zuco and his
19 A. Under the command of the Zvornik Infantry Brigade, because Zuco
20 went to briefings and to give reports to the brigade command and also when
21 it was necessary to obtain equipment and logistics, in order to obtain
22 weapons and ammunition. So he would also come to the warehouse in the
23 Standard building for such purposes.
24 Q. Witness, if I could refer you to the document at tab 8, and that
25 is already allotted the exhibit number P822, tab 41. This is a list of
1 manpower and it's dated the 1st of May, 1992. It's headed "Commander
2 Zuco." In the -- the second listing that appears in this document at
3 number 42, there's a reference to V. Vuckovic, Zuco, and there's a
4 reference at 46 to Dusan Vuckovic, who the Court has seen before.
5 If I could refer the witness to the handwriting on the right-hand
6 side of this page. And can you read that Cyrillic handwriting, not the
7 continuation of the list of names but the handwriting which is four lines
8 on the -- the right-hand side of the page. Would you read that into the
9 record, please, Witness 682.
10 A. I apologise. I don't understand your question. Is that on the
11 first page or on the second one?
12 Q. From my observation here, I can see it's the -- the page that is
13 closest to your left hand, that one you now have in your hand. And it's
14 the handwriting that appears on the right-hand side, not the listing of
15 names but from the commencement of that handwriting down to where it says
17 A. It says: "Authorised by the TO Staff commander." It's a list of
18 units that were under Zuco's command. There's Vuckovic Dusko, Jorica
19 Neskovic, and Dusko Stevan. And then it says that Jago Stevan was there
20 from the 14th of May to the 17th of May.
21 Q. Thank you, Witness. I'm just interested in whether or not you
22 can make out the name that appears on the third line of the handwriting.
23 Can you read that -- that name?
24 A. Nebojsa Nozica, and Vuckovic, Dusko, who is under number 46.
25 Q. Sorry, Witness, I'm not expressing --
1 A. And here it says "Stevo Radic." It says that the list was
2 provided to him. Stevo Radic was the secretary in the municipality. It's
3 a list of soldiers who were supposed to receive their salaries, and Stevo
4 Radic is mentioned. He was provided with this and he received this.
5 Q. Was Stevo Radic responsible for distributing these payments?
6 A. All lists were provided to Stevo Radic, all lists of all units,
7 so that he could calculate the amount of money each individual should be
8 allocated as a salary. So he was provided with these lists. And then he
9 was also provided with information on sanitary items, soap, washing
10 powder, et cetera, for units. He was provided with such lists, which he
11 could then authorise so that this -- these goods could be taken from some
12 companies. Stevo Radic had the authority to issue items for personal
13 hygiene and perhaps certain tins of food, mineral water, et cetera. So as
14 the secretary, he had the authority to issue such items.
15 Q. Thank you for -- for that answer.
16 MR. MARGETTS: If we could now refer to tab 9, and if that could
17 be given an exhibit number.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P921.
20 MR. MARGETTS:
21 Q. Witness, at -- at tab 9, we have a listing for payment for
22 soldiers. The name Vojan Vuckovic, Zuco, appears at 41; the name Dusan
23 Vuckovic appears at 44. Could I refer you to the end of this listing and
24 to the signature that appears next to the notation "the payment approved
25 by the TO Staff commander," and could you tell me whether or not you
1 recognise that signature.
2 A. It's the signature -- the handwriting of Marko Pavlovic, TO Staff
3 commander. Since there is no word "for" or "on behalf of" before the
4 signature, that means that he signed this personally and I know this
5 signature because he signed my laissez-passer when I had to go to
7 Q. Witness, we referred earlier to Stojan Pivarski. Did you ever
8 have a conversation with Stojan Pivarski where he raised the issue of
9 helping Muslims?
10 A. I talked to him sometime in early June or maybe mid-June, when he
11 went to the staff and I was going to the staff too, to have lunch or
12 something. So we went together. I set off from the depot and he was on
13 his way there, too. So we ran into each other, and since we knew each
14 other well, he told me, (redacted)
15 (redacted) And he says, "I got a report, but I don't believe it."
16 MR. MARGETTS: Witness, please.
17 Sorry, I believe there was a reference to a word that should be
18 redacted. It wasn't translated in the English translation but I believe
19 it's an identifying word, and it appears -- it appears at line 9. Page
20 40, line 9. If that could be redacted.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar is instructed to do so.
22 MR. MARGETTS:
23 Q. Apology, Witness. We -- we are in open session at the moment and
24 so I'm just -- we need to be attentive in respect of the matters that we
25 refer to in open session. But if you could continue with your answer.
4 And I suggest that if you have similar questions, that we turn into
5 private session.
6 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Witness, I'd like to now refer --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have similar questions?
9 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, not -- not current -- no, no,
10 not current.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Not current.
12 MR. MARGETTS: Not immediately.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please continue.
14 MR. MARGETTS: But in the future I'll be attentive to that.
15 Thank you.
16 Q. Witness, I'd now like to refer you to a series of documents that
17 appear at tabs 10, 11, and 12 of the binder. And if we could first refer
18 to the exhibit that appears at tab 10 and if that could be given an
19 exhibit number.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P922.
22 MR. MARGETTS:
23 Q. Witness, this is a information report from the Zvornik Brigade
24 command, and there's a request for information so that payroll accounts
25 can be prepared and payment of compensation for the month of June can be
2 The part of the document that I'd like you to refer to is the
3 handwriting again, at the bottom of the document, and the heading there is
4 submitted on the 18th of June, 1992 and the first three lines refer to the
5 1st Battalion, 2nd Battalion, and 3rd Battalion. If you could cast your
6 eye to the right-hand side of this handwriting, you'll see that there are
7 three names set out there: Niski, Pivarski, and Zuco. And in regard to
8 Zuco, there is an arrow pointing from his name up toward the name of
9 Niski. Was it your understanding that Zuco and his unit in June 1992 were
10 part of the 1st Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade?
11 A. Zuco's Unit was at the time part of the 1st Battalion of the
12 Zvornik Brigade, because he was on their lists.
13 Q. Thank you, Witness.
14 If I could now refer to tab 11, which is P822, tab 39. And I'd
15 like you to first of all note that this is a payment listing for June 1992
16 and the top two people listed are Vojan Vuckovic and Dusan Vuckovic.
17 Witness, could you pay attention to the handwriting at the top, which
18 reads: "1 PB, Grupa Zuco." What does the "1 PB" stand for?
19 A. 1st Battalion, because it says who belongs to which unit and it
20 means that Zuco's Unit belonged to the 1st Unit. They didn't write "Igor
21 Markovic" because that would have been longer; they just wrote "Zuco
22 Group, 1st Battalion." That means the unit was under the command of the
23 1st Battalion.
24 Q. Witness, if we could now move to the next document, which is at
25 the -- tab 12. And if you could note that the first name listed on tab
1 12, which is part of the Zvornik context package, if you could note that
2 the first name is Stojan Pivarski. And there's a heading above the name
3 Stojan Pivarski. Could you read that and inform the Court as to what that
4 heading means, which reads: "Grupa Pivarskog 2nd Battalion." What does
5 that heading mean?
6 A. This is a unit under Pivarski's command. That is why it's
7 written "Pivarski's Group under the command of the 2nd Battalion." You
8 can see here where it says "Pivarski" in the third column it says "group
9 commander." In short shrift, that means that this unit is under his
10 command and then follows a list of the entire unit which was under his
12 Q. Thank you, Witness. I'd now like to ask you a few questions
13 about the gentleman that was listed in the document we saw at tab 10; that
14 was Exhibit P922. And that's the gentleman by the nickname Niski. Do you
15 know what his full name is?
16 A. I can't remember exactly. I think his name was -- his first name
17 was Miroslav. I can't tell you his full name.
18 Q. But did you at one stage know what his full name was and is it
19 the case that you just can't recall it at this time?
20 A. I did. I did know his full name. I just can't recall it at the
21 moment, because it's been 13 or 14 years. I can only remember "Miroslav,"
22 because even when I was talking to him, I never called him by last name; I
23 just called him "Niski" or "Miroslav."
24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours, with the leave of the Court, if I
25 could refer the witness to tab 32 wherein a statement is provided by
1 person of the nickname Niski. And if I could refer the witness to that
2 statement just for the purpose of reading the name next to that nickname
3 and confirming whether or not that refreshes his memory in an accurate
4 description of the gentleman known as Niski's name.
5 And for the record, tab 32 is P529 tab --
6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I really -- I really don't have any
7 problem with this. It's on this particular point. It's plain that this
8 document speaks for itself on that smallish point.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, Mr. Margetts.
10 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour, and thank you, learned
12 Q. Witness, having looked at that document, can you confirm that
13 Niski's name was Svetozar Mitrovic?
14 A. Right. Yes. And he got his nickname on the basis of the fact
15 that he came from Nis.
16 Q. Thank you, Witness. If you could put that statement away. We
17 won't refer again to that statement.
18 When did you first meet Niski?
19 A. I first met him sometime around the 25th or the 26th of April,
20 before departing for Kula. I didn't have much contact with him on that
21 occasion, but that's the first time I met him.
22 Q. Prior to your meeting him, did you know whether or not he had
23 previously been in Zvornik? And if he had been, for what purpose was he
24 in Zvornik?
25 A. Before that, I didn't know he had been coming to Zvornik. I
1 learned only later that he had been in Zvornik and had been involved in
2 the fighting in Zvornik, after which he left and then returned. I learned
3 that from talking to Zuco, not before.
4 Q. When he was involved in the fighting in Zvornik, that is, prior
5 to your meeting him, which unit was he fighting with?
6 A. In the Serbian volunteers guard, under the command of Zeljko
7 Raznjatovic, Arkan.
8 Q. When he returned to Zvornik on the 26th of April, under whose
9 command was he from that date?
10 A. At the outset, he was under the command of Zuco. He reported to
11 him, at first, and then he received orders later on from Marko Pavlovic.
12 Q. I'd now like to turn to the Birac Brigade and ask you a few
13 questions in relation to this brigade. First of all, who was Svetozar
15 A. Svetozar Andric was the commander of the Bircani Brigade, whose
16 command was in Sekovici, and his deputy was Bogunovic. I don't know his
17 first name.
18 Q. Did you see Svetozar Andric and Major Bogunovic in Zvornik during
19 the period April 1992 through to the period July 1992?
20 A. I would see go Bogunovic from time to time in April in Zvornik.
21 I was aware that Andric would come and go. I met him once without knowing
22 that he's the commander. And I also saw Bogunovic a couple of times when
23 we were together in the unit, when we were close to Caparde and when we
24 would have -- when he would give some combat orders to Zuco.
25 Q. So, Witness, we've previously discussed the relationship that
1 Zuco had with the Zvornik Brigade. And by the nature of your last answer,
2 you've indicated that also the deputy commander of the Birac Brigade would
3 issue orders to Zuco. Are you able to inform the Court of what the
4 relationship was between the Birac Brigade and the Zvornik Brigade? And
5 just as a -- a matter of background, the Court is aware that they were
6 both brigades within the East Bosnia Corps and they both had their area of
7 operations. But can you explain to the Court how it was that a commander
8 of the Birac Brigade would be giving orders to a unit such as Zuco's.
9 A. He was able to issue orders to Zuco's unit because we, from the
10 Zvornik Brigade, were attached, seconded to fill in a gap in the front
11 line so that Zuco's Unit was closer to the Sekovici Brigade than to the
12 Zvornik Brigade. They had radio communications with them, but they issued
13 orders to us because we were closer. And once we are closer to their
14 command, they would give us orders on a particular combat activity,
15 because we filled a part of this front line, defence line, facing
16 Sekovici, branching off towards Sapna and towards the Sekovici Brigade.
17 MR. MARGETTS: If I could now refer to witness to tab 14, and if
18 this document could be given an exhibit number.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: P2923. (P923).
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours I do have -- this is a duty book of
23 the Zvornik Brigade and I do have the full copy of this book if
24 Your Honours would like to cite that or, alternatively, if Defence would
25 like to cite that full copy. I'm only going to be relying on introducing
1 into evidence those to portions which are extracted at tab 14.
2 JUDGE ORIE: You said -- you said "only", Mr. Margetts.
3 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.
4 Q. Could we -- Witness --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, yes, I think we are now at the point
6 where the French translation has finished.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. Witness, could I refer you to the entry in this duty book for the
10 28th of June. And it commences at the page which has the -- in the
11 Serbian version, it commences at the page with the eight digits at the top
12 04286515. Let me correct that. I apologise. It actually commences at
13 the reference 04286514. And it continues on over the next two pages until
14 it reaches an entry which has the marking "duty service commenced at
15 1800," and that is at the page with the last four digits 6515. Can you
16 confirm that the entry states that "The operative duty commander at the
17 time was Aco Sekanic"?
18 A. Yes. It says "Sekanic A.," meaning Aleksandar Sekanic. He took
19 over duty at 1800 hours. He was the duty operations officer so that all
20 incoming information was submitted to him to be later included in reports.
21 This worked in shifts and the duty operations officer was the one who
22 received information on the latest developments on front lines.
23 Q. Was the operations officer and the command of the Zvornik Brigade
24 stationed at Novi Standard?
25 A. Yes. He was stationed in Novi Standard on the first floor, and
1 all incoming information either through communications or otherwise found
2 its way to the duty service logbook. And somebody came in with the
4 what his unit was doing. Everybody who was coming in would report what
5 was going on, on the front lines, either orally or through communication.
6 MR. MARGETTS: And, Your Honour, again, if we could redact that
7 portion of the answer.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apart from that, Witness, could you please
9 carefully listen to the question and, to start with, limit your answer to
10 what is specifically asked. The last question only was whether the
11 operations officer and the command of the brigade was stationed at Novi
12 Standard. If so, confirm it. If Mr. Margetts would like to know more
13 details, he'll certainly ask you for it. Yes?
14 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. And the redaction is at 48,
15 line 22. If that entire line could be struck.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I noticed, as a matter of fact, that the line
17 numbering is not the same on all computers, so it's ...
19 and the offending portion precedes that.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. By reading that line, Mr. Margetts, you caused
21 that -- also your remarks in this respect have to be redacted. Yes?
22 Please keep that in mind.
23 Madam Registrar is instructed to ...
24 THE REGISTRAR: We have just one line different between your line
25 and my line. When it is line 22 at your side, it's line 23 on my side.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Q. Could I refer you to the entry that's on the page marked the last
5 four digits 6516 and refers to contact that was made at 5.30 a.m.
6 Presumably that would then be on the 29th of June. And that reads as
7 follows, that "An individual came and gave the message that Zuco wants to
8 know what to do next and whether he should come to the command."
9 Could you tell the Court whether that is consistent with your
10 understanding of how Zuco was tasked.
11 A. Yes, it is consistent, because everybody who would go to the
12 command from units for whatever reason could take a message, because we
13 had no direct lines, either telephone or radio lines, with the command, so
14 that anybody going there on whatever errand could take a message
15 personally so that people would know what to do next.
16 Q. And, Witness, you referred earlier to briefings that occurred at
17 the Novi Standard command. Can you describe those briefings which took
18 place every morning and can you indicate to the Court how frequently Zuco
19 attended those briefings or, alternatively, how frequently he attended the
21 A. He would come to report -- everybody would come in to report
22 around 8.00 a.m. about the situation on the front line and receive orders
23 from the command. Both Zuco and all the others, commanders of battalions
24 or independent units within battalions, everybody came in for briefings.
25 That started from the time when the brigade was established. And even I,
1 with my particular duties, (redacted)
3 Q. Witness, again, we will need to redact that. If you could
4 refrain unless specifically asked from describing your particular duties.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar is still busy with the
6 previous one but ...
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.
8 JUDGE ORIE: But meanwhile you may proceed, Mr. Margetts.
9 MR. MARGETTS:
10 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Witness, you've described the fact that Zuco and all the other
12 commanders of battalions and independent units would attend these morning
13 briefings. Apart from attending the morning briefings, did Zuco attend
14 the command on other occasions?
15 A. Zuco would sometimes come on other occasions if he needed
16 something urgently; although, generally speaking, he didn't come to the
17 command that often, because he would be usually on the front line or
18 somewhere else. But he would come in whenever he needed to.
19 Q. You mentioned that he didn't come there that often. Can you
20 indicate to the Court how frequently he -- he would be at Novi Standard.
21 A. Well, I can say that he would come once a day or maybe once in
22 two or three days, depending on the developments on the front line. That
23 dictated the frequency of his visits.
24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if we could now refer to the
25 documents that are at tabs 15 and 16, and if both of those documents could
1 be given exhibit numbers.
2 THE REGISTRAR: The tab 15 would be P924. Tab 16 will be P925.
3 MR. MARGETTS:
4 Q. Now, the document that you find at P -- at that tab 15, which is
5 marked P924, is a direction from the commander, Colonel Dragutin Ilic of
6 the East Bosnia Corps to the command of all units, and he is indicating
7 that an analysis of combat operations taken -- undertaken in the last 30
8 days, "will take place on the 13th of July, 1992." And this document's
9 dated 6 July 1992.
10 You'll note that one of the core issues that's noted is the issue
11 set out at paragraph 2, item 6, and it's -- refers to "joint operations
12 with volunteers and method of use."
13 Now, this document, in fact, further useful information relating
14 to what was intended there can be gleaned from the next document, so I'll
15 refer, Witness, immediately, if you could refer to tab 16. And at tab 16,
16 which is the next one along -- Witness, do you have that document?
17 A. No, I haven't got it before me right now.
18 Q. This is a document apparently prepared in response to the order
19 of Dragutin Ilic and it's prepared by the Birac Brigade. And the you look
20 at the item on the second page of the English, item number 6, and on
21 the -- the bottom item on the second page of the Serbian, and that item is
22 headed "Experience with use of volunteers, ways of putting them to use."
23 And I'll read what it says into the record. It says: "Three groups of
24 volunteers who agreed to fight under joint command are currently in the
25 zone of responsibility of the brigade. Those are mostly men with combat
1 experience from Croatia. They were used to take -- to -- takeover of
2 certain heights and combat in inhabited places."
3 Witness, is that consistent with your experience of the use that
4 units such as Zuco's and Pivarski's were put to by the Birac or the
5 Zvornik Brigade?
6 A. Yes, it is consistent with such use, because whenever the threats
7 were higher, they sent soldiers who were experienced to deal with such
8 situations. Whenever this was required, that was the case. There were --
9 it says "three groups" here and then they were all together and later they
10 had their commands in three different battalions.
11 Q. Witness, I'm going to ask you a question about your arrest, and
12 then I'm going to go into private session to describe further matters, but
13 I -- I'd just like to -- and I will go into the details of your actual
14 arrest and what took place and who arrested you, but if you could refrain
15 from indicating those matters in open session. And if I could just ask
16 you to describe how you and the other people who were arrested in
17 August -- early August of 1992 and who were detained at the Bijeljina SJB,
18 how were you treated?
19 A. The conditions were very difficult. There were 50 people who
20 were held in a very small area. They had to strip to their underclothes.
21 We had to urinate into pots, and one had to wait for several hours to go
22 and defecate. When we were arrested, we were beaten. People's teeth were
23 broken. Their ribs were broken. It was terrible.
24 Q. Thank you, Witness.
25 MR. MARGETTS: If we could now move into private session.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We'll move into private session.
2 [Private session]
11 Pages 16916-16925 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's confirmed on my screen.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. MARGETTS:
2 Q. Witness, you just described the fact that Momcilo Mandic drove
3 through the checkpoint. He had a number of vehicles with him. When he
4 returned and passed again through the checkpoint, some of those vehicles
5 did not return.
6 Witness, those vehicles that were with him, were they new
7 vehicles that were not registered and were they consistent with the type
8 of vehicle that was stored at the TAS factory in Vogosca?
9 A. Those vehicles were from the TAS factory. They were licenced.
10 They had licence numbers and they had papers, but the papers were not in
11 order. For instance, a vehicle claimed to have been manufactured in 1990
12 had papers dating back to an earlier year. That was impossible.
13 Q. Witness, did -- at some stage did Velibor Ostojic attempt to pass
14 through the checkpoint? And do you know what occurred to him?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, I hope that we do not go again into
16 vehicles with -- I mean, this is not a case about stolen vehicles. This
17 is a case about other things, as far as I understand. And so therefore
18 it's not -- not clear to me what the relevance of this is, unless you
19 would find it important to establish that there was an atmosphere where
20 not everyone avoided to get the best out of the situation.
21 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour, I have no intention of
22 introducing this evidence with a purpose of demonstrating that point. If
23 the witness could remove his headphones just for a moment.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you take your headphones off, please.
25 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, the detention of the paramilitary
1 unit was a matter that previous evidence we've introduced to the Chamber
2 establishes was something referred to by the leaders of the Bosnian Serb
3 state, and they indicated that the detention was for a specific reason
4 and, in fact, this witness is the best witness to provide evidence of the
5 real reason for that detention.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, you would say that they were blamed for
7 thefts of cars committed by others? Is that ...? Or at least
8 appropriation in a not regular way? Is ...?
9 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, in order for us to -- to present
10 material to the Court from which the Court can make a conclusion as to why
11 they were detained, we need to, in our submission, present what -- what
12 preceded their detention and a conclusion as to the reason for their
13 detention may become expressed or at least be inferred from -- from those
14 events that preceded the detention.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well ...
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 [Prosecution counsel confer]
18 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if I could be more express. If
19 learned Defence counsel has any objection to me putting this submission at
20 this stage, the witness cannot hear it. The fact of the matter is this:
21 That there was representations at the leadership level that the detention
22 of the paramilitaries was in order to comply with their international
23 regulations -- obligations or international humanitarian law obligations
24 of prevention and punishment and there was an attempt to blame these
25 paramilitaries for crimes that the internationals were alleging were
1 committed by Bosnian Serb forces.
2 We need to present the background matters, such as the discussion
3 with the -- with the Presidency member Biljana Plavsic and the -- the
4 substance of that discussion and the contact that these individuals had
5 with the Minister of Justice and Minister of Information to demonstrate --
6 and also the -- the substance of the indictment that was levelled against
7 them, which specifically referred to conduct at checkpoints, to provide
8 the Court with the opportunity to understand the real reason for why they
9 were detained.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand from these papers and from the
11 earlier answers that the witness, that they were -- I think you call it
12 the scapegoat in English for what others might have done. But the main
13 issue is that we are talking about cars. The core of this case is not
14 cars and it becomes clear from the documents you have presented until now
15 that at least they were not detained because they had ill-treated, beaten,
16 killed, whatever, but that it was just in terms of cars worth more than a
17 certain amount of money. Therefore, I really wonder whether we have to go
18 into such details, because if you'd say -- I mean --
19 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour --
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- it's not about the type of behaviour which in the
21 core of this case and whether they were then detained as scapegoats to
22 cover up someone else's misbehaviour in terms of -- of theft or cars or
23 whether it was anything else. The most important thing is, I take it,
24 that it was -- that at least on paper it's cars. Whether they've stolen
25 it, whether someone else has stolen it -- and it's not what is in the core
1 of this case, and that is persecution of a certain population. Because
2 one would not even know to whom these cars belonged or would we? Perhaps
3 they --
4 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, could I reassure you, and perhaps I
5 should have done this earlier, I do not intend to ask any more questions
6 about cars. The one thing I did want to deal with was an incident that
7 occurred at the checkpoint with the Minister of Information.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Well, yes, but let's see. You are now aware
9 of the concern of the Chamber. We are close to the finish of the second
10 portion of this morning, where you said you might finish your
12 Please proceed.
13 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I can seek some guidance. When are
14 we going to complete this session?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I thoughts usually we do that -- we had a late
16 start this morning, half an hour later than usual. Therefore, all the
17 breaks are a bit later. We're now close to where we would have taken half
18 an hour ago a break if we would have started at a normal time. So
19 therefore when I was thinking about taking a break, I thought, No, let's
20 give an opportunity to Mr. Margetts to finish his examination-in-chief.
21 Yes, the witness has his earphones on again. Please proceed,
22 Mr. Margetts.
23 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I am going to require a little bit
24 of -- a little bit further -- probably about 15 minutes at least to
25 complete examination.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If you would finish within 10 minutes from now on,
2 then we would stay within the -- stay within the tape.
3 MR. MARGETTS: Okay.
4 Q. Witness, what occurred to Velibor Ostojic at the Karakaj
6 A. Velibor Ostojic was stopped in order to perform a check. He
7 didn't want to stop because every combat unit has their own weapons as
8 envisaged by establishment. Anyway, he was forced to get out of the car
9 and he said to them, "You cannot act this way. Do you know who I am?"
10 And the people from the checkpoint told them, "Everyone is equal in our
11 eyes. They all have to show their IDs." And he replied, "I am the
12 Minister of Information." And the man from the checkpoint told him, "Even
13 if you were my own father, you would still have to show me your ID."
14 So he was forced out of the car and made to lie down on the
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, could you concentrate on the main points.
17 Not too many details. Please proceed. What happened? He went out of the
18 car. What was the issue?
19 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Witness, that's -- that's an adequate answer. If I could move
21 you on now and we could refer to tab 34.
22 MR. MARGETTS: And if that could be given an exhibit number and
23 presented under seal.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P930, under seal.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
2 MR. MARGETTS:
14 MR. MARGETTS: Sorry, Your Honour. Your Honour, I believe we're
15 in open session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are.
17 MR. MARGETTS: And accordingly, if we could now move into private
18 session and --
19 JUDGE ORIE: And have a redaction made on from where?
20 MR. MARGETTS: The introduction of this exhibit.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it will be done.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. MARGETTS: And are we now in private session, Your Honour?
24 Mr. Registrar?
25 JUDGE ORIE: We are not yet.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 16934-16939 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are. Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I think it's reasonable just to repeat
6 that fairly short question.
7 Q. Witness, when you were arrested and taken into custody in
8 Bijeljina, you were interrogated, were you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. By just one person during your custody or by more than one
12 A. There were two persons. One interrogated and another one was
13 present. I don't know their names.
14 Q. On -- were you interrogated on just one occasion or more than one
16 A. There were two interrogations. The first one was an
17 interrogation where an inspector hit me. I asked him not to hit me and if
18 he wanted to hear the truth, I was prepared to say it.
23 Q. Well, I wasn't -- well, I'm -- I'm assuming that answer doesn't
24 create a problem as far as the open and private session is concerned?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Not as far as I can see, no.
1 MR. STEWART: I didn't think it did, Your Honour.
2 Q. The -- I hadn't asked you about --
3 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, apologies. In fact, it does create a
4 problem, and I would ask for a redaction of lines 6 to 9.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You take sequence of places? Is that it?
6 MR. MARGETTS: From the words (redacted).
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Let's take that three lines out.
8 And, Madam Registrar, you are instructed to do so.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
10 MR. STEWART: I'll -- I'll leave that second location till
11 tomorrow, then, Your Honour. That would simplify matters.
12 Q. So far as Bijeljina was concerned, Witness, do you remember the
13 names of anybody who was involved -- well, involved with those who
14 arrested you, had you in custody, or interrogated you?
15 A. I remember those people who conducted the arrest, who led the
16 arrest. There was Mandic and Milenko Karisik. They led the operation of
17 our arrest; the entire operation, that is. Whereas, in Bijeljina, if I
18 remember the last name correctly, I was interrogated by an inspector named
20 Q. Witness, have you in the last three weeks or so been following
21 any of the proceedings in this trial?
22 A. I don't follow any proceedings of the Tribunal, not only these
23 proceedings. It's because of the schedule. When there are proceedings
24 here, I am at work and I cannot follow them.
25 Q. Have you heard anything or had any discussion before you came to
1 The Hague over the last two or three weeks about any of the proceedings in
2 this trial? I should accept from that any -- any arrangements you've been
3 making with anybody in The Hague. If I can leave that on one side. But
4 any discussion with anybody out in your own country?
5 A. I haven't discussed these proceedings with anyone at all, with
6 the exception of my family, of course.
7 Q. Does the name Milorad Davidovic mean anything to you, Witness?
8 A. Well, all I know is that he was also someone who acted as a
9 commander of the police unit from Bijeljina. That's all his name means to
10 me, and he was also in charge of our arrest. He was one of the persons
11 involved in our arrest. When we were arrested under Milenko Karisik's
12 command, he was involved in the arrest. That's why I am familiar with his
13 name; although, everyone called him Mico. But I did not know his real
14 name. All I knew was his surname.
15 Q. And you knew that at the time, did you, before you were released
16 from custody in Bijeljina?
17 A. Yes.
18 A. Yes, I did. And later when I was held in detention, I heard that
19 he had been relieved of his duties. So that's all I heard. And this is
20 something that I heard in Bijeljina.
21 Q. Did you have any direct contact with that man - we know he's
22 Mr. Davidovic - before your release from custody in Bijeljina?
23 A. No. I did not have any direct contact with him. I only had
24 direct contact with Zeljko Lizdek and Dragan Andan, as I have said. I
25 also had contacts on one occasion with Nikola Milanovic, who said that I
1 should write a statement, that they would type it out, and that they
2 should not beat me. They said that I was there to give a statement and
3 that I shouldn't be beaten.
4 Q. Did you ever hear any complaints from anybody else who was in
5 custody about Mr. Davidovic?
6 A. We weren't in the same place, so we couldn't speak about that.
7 There were two of us in one cell; whereas, the others were in another
8 cell. So we couldn't speak to each other to see whether anyone had
9 complained about him, so I don't know.
10 Q. Well, Witness, I just remind you that you were eventually
11 released. Did you at any time hear any complaint from anybody else who
12 had been in custody in Bijeljina about Mr. Davidovic. Whether the
13 complaint was during or after you were in custody, did you ever hear any
14 complaint about Mr. Davidovic?
15 A. I didn't hear about anyone complaining about him directly, but I
16 heard about people complaining about men under his command and they said
17 that they'd been hit with baseball bats and they complained about how they
18 had been arrested and treated, but I never saw anyone who said that he
19 participated in such things. They would say that he issued orders and we
20 would not even receive regular meals, and we really did not dare speak
22 MR. STEWART: [Microphone not activated]
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry.
25 Your Honour, I was saying it hasn't been a long session. I notice
1 the clock.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00,
5 in Courtroom II, I take it?
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Courtroom II. And everyone is prepared to
8 continue tomorrow in the afternoon at 3.00, courtroom still to be
10 We adjourn.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Friday, the 22nd day of
13 July, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.