1 Thursday, 27 October 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Mr. Josse, are you ready to continue the examination of the
11 witness Dicvic?
12 MR. JOSSE: I am, Your Honour. At some point, I know the
13 registrar would like to deal with the Vasic exhibits.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. JOSSE: When it is convenient for Your Honour.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As a matter of fact, I just asked the registrar
17 to give me a copy of the provisional list he made. I'll first read
18 through it and then we'll deal with it in open court.
19 MR. JOSSE: I'm ready to continue with my examination.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Divcic
21 into the courtroom.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Divcic. I would like to remind
24 you --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to remind you that you're still bound by
2 the solemn declaration you've given yesterday at the beginning of your
3 testimony. You'll now be further examined by Mr. Josse.
4 Mr. Josse, please proceed.
5 WITNESS: ALEKSANDAR DIVCIC [Resumed]
6 [Witness answered through interpreter]
7 Examined by Mr. Josse: [Continued]
8 Q. Mr. Divcic, we had got to the point in your evidence where you
9 were beginning to tell the Chamber of the arrival in Pale of the Bosnian
10 Serb leadership. You dealt in outline with conversations that you had
11 with Mr. Karadzic. You've also mentioned that it was very cold, partly
12 because of the altitude of Pale.
13 Was Pale ready to become an administrative centre at that time?
14 A. No. No. Pale was not ready for that. Pale is a tourist resort,
15 some 10.000 or 12.000 people. They are some 20 kilometres away from
16 Sarajevo. It's a rural area in the mountains. So the answer is
17 absolutely no.
18 Q. Did the leadership arrive in one go or did they arrive in dribs
19 and drabs?
20 A. Yes. In a very disorganised way, in dribs and drabs, and not only
21 the leadership, but also many other people.
22 Q. When people arrived, how were they accommodated, housed?
23 A. In various ways. The local population -- because it was a
24 difficult situation for everyone, well, they accepted to have in their
25 places either friends or family, or sometimes unknown people. Many people
1 lived in very inappropriate conditions then. But the most important thing
2 was to have shelter, not to be in the open air.
3 Q. Now, you became involved in this logistical work in particular; is
4 that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Firstly, why?
7 A. I thought that it was a duty to help people who are in difficulty.
8 That was the first reason. And then the second one was that I was the
9 vice chair of the Serbian charity Dobrotvor, and immediately before we
10 received, from Germany, a large donation through the German Red Cross.
11 And part of that donation was given to Dobrotvor, part of it to Merhamet,
12 and part to the Caritas, and a part of it, I think, to La Benevolencija.
13 A gentleman by the name of Michael Steiner, who later on became the German
14 representative in the contact group, well, he gave it to me, and the part
15 that was given to Serbs, I decided to put it in various places, because
16 even at that stage we did not have a warehouse for Dobrotvor. So part of
17 it was in Pale and part of it in Vojkovici.
18 Q. I'll come back to this shipment or large amount of charity that
19 had come from the Red Cross in a few moments' time, if I may. What I'd
20 like to concentrate on first of all is whether you played any role in
21 placing Bosnian Serb leaders in hotels, houses, and/or sorting out where
22 administration was going to take place. That's where my question was
23 directed and that's what I'd like you to turn your attention to first of
25 A. Yes. Yes.
1 Q. So could you tell the Chamber what you did in terms of sorting out
2 accommodation for the leadership.
3 A. Well, nearby, in Pale itself, that is, about a kilometre or two
4 away, towards -- on the road towards Jahorina, there was a hotel that was
5 built in 1984 for the Olympic Games. It had been closed, except for the
6 winter season, and then a company from Kikinda was using it. And I knew
7 that there in the neighbourhood lived local people who took care of that
8 motel. I went to see them and I asked for the key, and they gave me the
9 key, and I tried and organised the work of the Dobrotvor charity. And as
10 people were coming in, I saw that they were disorganised. They had no
11 place to stay. And then I started organising it with people whom I knew
12 from different institutions, if that is your question. And there were
13 other people who came, people who were able to get lunch there and that
14 were just passing by there.
15 JUDGE ORIE: It becomes totally unclear. Mr. Josse asked you
16 about housing the leadership. You are now talking with a lot of details
17 on when the hotel was built, which might not be that relevant, and you are
18 now talking about giving lunches to persons. But are you talking about
19 leadership personalities or are you talking about ordinary citizens?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sometimes ordinary citizens too.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But most of what you described was a matter of
22 accommodating the leadership? It sounds as if that was the bulk.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It was mostly the leaders, but
24 it wasn't solely the leadership. From time to time, there were people who
25 were very hungry and asked whether they could eat something there, and we
1 would tell them that they could eat and then they would continue with
2 their journey.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but your main effort was housing and
4 accommodating the leadership.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.
6 MR. JOSSE:
7 Q. What about the hotel Panorama? How did that come to be used?
8 A. Simply, it was empty. There were no guests in that hotel. So
9 that was the opportunity to put there people who had nowhere else to stay.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Again here the question, what kind of people? What
11 are we talking about? Are we talking about accommodating the leadership
12 or are we talking about accommodating citizens, irrespective of their
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mostly the leadership. 90 per cent
15 were the leadership.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please be clear in your answers what we are
17 talking about, because this is now the second time that it's unclear to
18 me, when you're talking about persons, whether you mean those who are
19 officials, leadership persons, or whether these are ordinary citizens.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.
21 MR. JOSSE:
22 Q. What I think I'll do is I'll come back to some of these issues a
23 little bit later when we deal with them in another way.
24 I'd like to turn now to Mr. Krajisnik, whom we've not mentioned --
25 or you've not mentioned at all in your evidence hitherto. When did you
1 first -- and I'm not now talking necessarily about Pale in 1992; I'm
2 talking about generally. When did you first become aware of the existence
3 of Mr. Krajisnik?
4 A. He appeared as the Speaker of the Assembly on television. He was
5 the Speaker of the Assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is.
6 Q. Had you met him prior to his being elected Speaker of the
8 A. No, I never even knew him. He did not take part in the activities
9 of the party, inasmuch as I described that work here, in the flat of
10 Mr. Karadzic. So he did not take part in the activities of the political
11 party. He was not one of the founders, and he did not work in the
12 advisory council. What surprised me, that somebody who was unknown would
13 take upon him such an important position once the various upper -- topmost
14 positions were divided between the Muslims, the Croats, and the Serbs.
15 Q. In terms of his handling of the Assembly, you saw it on the
16 television; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And I'm talking about the Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly here, not
19 the Republika Srpska Assembly. Did you ever go and watch him perform his
20 tasks as Speaker of that particular institution?
21 A. You asked me whether I attended the sessions of the Assembly or
22 whether I saw them on television. I mostly saw them on television. I
23 could read about it in the newspapers and we discussed it in the political
24 council. Once or twice, by chance, I went to the Assembly as an observer,
25 to see what it looked like live.
1 Q. So far as -- and I know -- I'm deliberately going back in time.
2 So far as the negotiations that took place in late 1991/early 1992, to try
3 and avert a war was concerned, to what extent would you say there was any
4 friction between SDS general membership and the leadership, and flowing
5 from that, was that reflected at all in the political council?
6 A. I could not define it, but from the viewpoint of the political
7 council, very often discussions were men saying that the leadership was
8 too lenient, the leadership of the Serb Democratic Party. They complained
9 that they were too indulgent towards the Muslims. Because with the
10 Croats, the relations were much clearer.
11 According to the assessment of the leadership of the SDS, it was
12 very important to calm down the Muslims, to support them in the
13 pre-election programme, in the sense that they should continue living in
14 Yugoslavia and that they could stay on in Yugoslavia. And I think that
15 was the approach that existed up until February or March, up until the
16 moment, that is, when Mr. Izetbegovic and the SDA started finding ways and
17 means of leaving Yugoslavia. That is the way how we thought about the
18 things at that time.
19 Mr. Radovan Karadzic was really in favour of calming that
20 situation down, and he was heavily criticised because of that. At those
21 first elections, Mr. Izetbegovic and Mr. -- that is, Mr. Fikret Abdic was
22 indeed the person who got most votes, and Mr. Izetbegovic came in second.
23 Then ways were found of putting Mr. Fikret Abdic as the president of the
24 Presidency, and then he was replaced by Mr. Izetbegovic. The leadership
25 of the SDS did accept that, and that encountered this approval within the
1 membership in general, and also in the political council. Well, the
2 explanation was that we should be indulgent and try to come to an accord
3 with the representatives of the Muslims. And Mr. Izetbegovic was the
4 leader of the SDA, which was the party with the largest membership among
5 the Muslims, and so we wanted to find the best solution for the crisis.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Divcic, these tensions that you mentioned a moment ago,
7 between the leadership and the membership, were they ever reflected in
8 discussions within the political council?
9 A. Yes. We heard very varied opinions, and there were also
10 opposition -- there was also opposition that was voiced to such a way of
11 dealing with the situation. But it was just a part of the political
12 council that said that. But the political council was an advisory body,
13 so there was a minority of the members of the political council who were
14 flatly opposed to the replacing of Fikret Abdic by Alija Izetbegovic in
15 the ways in which it was done. They thought that in such a way, the
16 wishes and desires expressed through the ballot by the Muslims were really
17 let down, and democracy was avoided in such a way, because most of the
18 Muslims voted for Fikret Abdic.
19 Q. Now, what about Mr. Krajisnik? How did he fit in, bearing in mind
20 his role of Speaker of the Assembly, to these tensions between what I will
21 call the SDS rank and file and the leadership?
22 A. I do not know. Mr. Krajisnik would only come when he would be
23 invited to the meetings of the political council. I do not know what was
24 his opinion about it. At that time, he was not in the leadership of the
25 Serb Democratic Party, so I would not see them in those times. On
1 television, I did not notice that he gave his opinion openly.
2 Q. And what about the way he was handling the Assembly during this
3 crisis? How was that viewed by SDS activists?
4 A. We were all surprised to see a relatively unknown person -- I
5 believe that he was either sixth or seventh down on the list during the
6 elections. So we were all surprised to see him occupy such an important
7 position that was given to the representatives of the Serbian people, and
8 we watched his every move very closely.
9 Our estimate, the estimate of everybody, the Muslims and the
10 Croats alike, was that before the open conflict started, that we managed
11 to receive a compromise in the way the Assembly was chaired. And we all
12 expected that the Serbian representatives would be given more opportunity
13 to explain their political views. And this would have been a better
15 However, he didn't do this. Our impression was that he did
16 everything but that, that he gave a lot more opportunity to the Muslims to
17 say what they thought. And this caused some reactions in the political
18 council, and I believe that he was invited to come and explain his
19 position before the political council.
20 He did that. He said that everything should be done to reach
21 democracy, that we had just come out of a mono-party system, where nobody
22 was allowed to say what they really thought, and so on and so forth.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, we're talking about a crisis, and it's not
24 entirely clear whether we're talking about Assembly at this time, Assembly
25 Speaker Bosnia and Herzegovina or the newly established or to be
1 established entity of Republika Srpska.
2 MR. JOSSE:
3 Q. Mr. Divcic, you heard the observation from the learned Judge.
4 It's one that clearly needs to be dealt with.
5 A. We're talking about the Assembly at the beginning of 1991, which
6 was still a joint assembly, not a Serbian assembly. But the Assembly of
7 Bosnia and Herzegovina, with the participation of everybody, the Serbs,
8 the Croats, the Muslims and others who had organised themselves into
9 political parties.
10 Q. And what about perceptions of activists and those on the political
11 council - there are really two different questions here - as to
12 Mr. Krajisnik's stance so far as the prevention of war was concerned?
13 A. The position of everybody - the Serb members and the Serb
14 non-members, the ones that I worked with in the office - was that
15 everything should be done to avoid war. During that period, during that
16 stage, my impression was that amongst the common people that I spoke to,
17 the Muslims and the Croats alike, nobody wanted to wage a war. They all
18 supported a peaceful and sensible solution. I repeat: This was at the
19 beginning of 1991, when Mr. Izetbegovic was still pursuing his
20 pre-electoral political platform that won him so many Muslim votes. And
21 this was staying in Yugoslavia. And we all knew that if we stayed in
22 Yugoslavia, there would be no war, and we all knew that if a nation left
23 Yugoslavia would mean a crisis that could grow into a war.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Again, one question. We're talking about the
25 political council and we are at the same time talking about the situation
1 in the beginning of 1991. When exactly was this council established? Was
2 that September 1991 or was it September 1990? I'm just ...
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] September 1990, before the
4 multi-party election.
5 JUDGE ORIE: That's my mistake. I should have looked it up in
6 the -- yesterday's transcript.
7 I apologise for interrupting.
8 MR. JOSSE:
9 Q. I want to jump forward a little bit, past the point where it
10 became clear that the SDA leadership were advocating secession for Bosnia
11 and Herzegovina from Yugoslavia and to - I take this as an example - the
12 Cutileiro plan. Bearing in mind what that plan would have meant to
13 Bosnian Serbs, again, how was that viewed by SDS activists?
14 A. Again, I can only talk about the political council. At that time,
15 I was not involved in the work of the SDS activists, as you call them.
16 This was for us the last straw to cling on for Bosnia and Herzegovina not
17 to enter a war. That's how we perceived this. Because of the
18 developments in the past, the Cutileiro's plan was passed in March 1992,
19 and the entire 1991 was marked by confusion, primarily due to
20 Mr. Izetbegovic's positions, which changed overnight. And this all could
21 be felt in the Assembly. We would leave our work places to watch the work
22 of the Assembly to see what would happen, because this, to a large extent,
23 determined how the crisis would develop, through the legal institutions.
24 As for the Cutileiro's plan, in one part, and I would like to say
25 that I don't know the details of that plan; I never held it in my hands; I
1 have never read it or studied it, for that matter. But in one part, it
2 guaranteed - at least, that's what they told us, our representatives tried
3 to convince us of that - that this was the solution to avoid war in Bosnia
4 and Herzegovina and that this could satisfy the protection of the vital
5 interests of all the three nations. Nobody would be able to achieve their
6 maximum goals. Everybody would have to sacrifice something to keep the
7 peace. We all had to reach a compromise. And that's -- I dare say, that
8 that's how the majority of Muslims and Serbs perceived that plan.
9 Q. And again, dealing with the specifics, was there any reference
10 within the political council to Mr. Krajisnik's part in the plan and his
11 handling of the Assembly that was then in existence?
12 A. Throughout 1991, in January 1991 was still the time when the
13 positions of Mr. Izetbegovic were very clear and were based on his
14 pre-election programme. And then, overnight, the situation changed
15 dramatically. I believe that Mr. Radovan Karadzic, at the meeting of the
16 council towards the end of January, informed us that there had been a
17 meeting --
18 Q. Because my question -- perhaps I should have said. I was
19 referring to the Cutileiro plan. In it I said "in the plan."
20 So I'll read it again, the question. Dealing with the specifics,
21 were there any references within the political council to Mr. Krajisnik's
22 part in the Cutileiro plan and its negotiations and his handling of the
23 Assembly that was then in existence in relation to the Cutileiro plan,
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Yes, that's a question.
2 A. There's actually two questions. The first one is the question
3 about the political council. We did have a meeting sometime in mid-March.
4 It was the extended composition of the political council. That's how we
5 functioned. There were other members who were allowed to be there and say
6 what they thought. We made very few decisions, so their voting right did
7 not really matter.
8 But when it comes to the Cutileiro plan and the proposal, whether
9 the Serbian democratic party should be adopted or not, I remember that
10 Mr. Radovan Karadzic was present at that meeting, Mr. Krajisnik was there
11 as well, and they both supported the Cutileiro plan very heartily. They
12 did have some reservations about it. I remember some of the interventions
13 from the people who were not members of the council but were politically
14 active, who very strongly rejected the plan, and they even threatened that
15 the Serbian people would start a war if the plan was adopted.
16 I remember that Mr. Krajisnik reacted on that occasion and that he
17 said something to this effect: "Why do you say this? This has not been
18 adopted yet. We have to discuss things and find our interest in all of
20 I remember that discussion very well. I believe that this was the
21 last or the penultimate meeting of the council.
22 Q. I now want to turn, if I may, to Mr. Krajisnik's arrival in Pale.
23 Do you recall when he arrived there?
24 A. He was among the last to arrive in mid-April. I'm not sure of the
25 exact date. It may have been the 15th, the 16th, or the 17th.
1 Q. What happened, if you have any knowledge of it, as to the physical
2 housing of him and his family?
3 A. I know exactly where they were accommodated, because I was the one
4 who provided them with the housing. They were lost, like everybody else.
5 They didn't know what would happen to them. And I made sure that the
6 family was accommodated in the Panorama. Mr. Krajisnik had a wife at the
7 time and three relatively young children, of age [as interpreted], in any
8 case. And I accommodated them in the Panorama, all of them together.
9 Q. Mr. Divcic, you've just said "because I was the one that provided
10 them with the housing." This is what I was trying to ask you about
11 earlier, none too successfully on my part.
12 What role had you undertaken to be the one who was providing
13 people like Mr. Krajisnik with housing? Describe, in some detail, as far
14 as I'm concerned, the job that you had taken upon yourself to do in this
16 A. I had a weekend cottage for a number of years in Pale. I knew
17 quite a lot of people, and I used my personal influence to do that. I'm
18 not even sure that any of them -- or at least a majority of them would be
19 able to find accommodation if I had not used my private, personal
20 influence and friendship with the local population, who helped me in
21 providing these people with accommodation.
22 Q. And how did you physically organise it? How did you go about it?
23 Did you have an office? How did you decide who was going to go where?
24 Those sort of details are perhaps important.
25 A. We improvised things. It was by and large improvisation.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 As for our office, there was a little Dobrotvor office there
2 before the war, but it did not function properly. The Dobrotvor was at
3 the beginning of its work. It didn't have any money. There were no
4 people who worked for the organisation seriously. So it was very much an
6 Q. And now let's take Mr. Krajisnik as an example. He arrives in
7 town. What happened? If you can remember. Did you get forewarning that
8 he was coming? Did he arrive and come to an office? Did his wife come to
9 an office? And how did you then decide - the second question - where
10 exactly you were going to place him and his family?
11 A. No. His wife did not come to our office, because I spent very
12 little time in my office at the time. Truth be told, some other people
13 told me that Krajisnik had arrived. I asked them if he had managed to
14 find accommodation, and they told me, "We simply don't know what to do
15 with him." Then I said, "Okay. I'll take care of him and his family."
16 And that's when I found them this accommodation in the Panorama Hotel.
17 Q. And what sort of space did Mr. Krajisnik and his family have at
18 the Panorama Hotel?
19 A. The Panorama is a hotel which is far from luxurious. It was even
20 in a very bad state of repair at the time, unfortunately. But that's what
21 the conditions were at the time. I did not have any possibility to do
22 anything else. We're talking about very simple rooms. Many of them did
23 not even have a proper bathroom. People had to use a bathroom on the
24 floor for all the rooms. It was a very simple accommodation. The rooms
25 were humid, in a very bad state of repair. But that's what we had at our
1 disposal at the time.
2 Q. And do you remember how much space Mr. Krajisnik and his family
4 A. I believe that they were given one or two rooms, adjoining rooms
5 probably, with three or four beds. Four, probably.
6 Q. Now, the work that you were doing, the logistical work, were you
7 being paid by anyone for it?
8 A. No, never.
9 Q. I'd like to ask you some specific questions now, and we'll go back
10 to what you were telling us about earlier. A consignment of aid, you've
11 told us, arrived in Pale, is it, from various charities?
12 A. This consignment arrived from just one humanitarian organisation
13 that was from Germany, and it had been organised by Mr. Steiner, whom I
14 have already mentioned. He arrived from Zagreb, and I believe that this
15 was in February 1992.
16 Q. And where was this aid destined for?
17 A. It was destined for the Merhamet, which was a Muslim humanitarian
18 organisation, the Red Cross, and the Dobrotvor. And our allotment was
19 some 30 per cent of that consignment. We basically cooperated, the three
20 humanitarian organisations, we cooperated and we split this consignment
21 rather fairly, I would say.
22 Q. And where did the Dobrotvor part go to?
23 A. We did not have a central warehouse. One part went to Vojkovici,
24 to the people that I personally knew, and I knew that there would be no
25 abuse of that aid. Vojkovici also had a warehouse. Vojkovici is a part
1 of Sarajevo. And one part went to Pale, to a Serbian man whom I knew, who
2 also had a rather large storage space. And that's where we stored that
3 part of the consignment.
4 I know this person to this very day. I'm still on good terms with
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could I just seek one clarification. Earlier it was
7 said that Caritas was one of the receiving organisations and now the Red
8 Cross appears, which of course is a totally different kind of
10 Was that a slip of the tongue or was the Red Cross one of the
11 receiving organisations? Because earlier it was Caritas and
12 La Benevolencija.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I said Red Cross, then I
14 misspoke. I'm sorry. The Serbian Dobrotvor, the Croatian Caritas, and
15 the Muslim Merhamet were the three humanitarian organisations in question.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for the clarification.
17 MR. JOSSE:
18 Q. And you've described where the aid was stored, the Dobrotvor part
19 of it, at least. What exactly -- how was it distributed from storage?
20 A. How was it distributed? In what manner? Is that what you're
21 asking me?
22 Q. I am.
23 A. It depended on the situation and on the conditions. In Pale,
24 according to some subsequent estimates, some 15.000 people came from
25 Sarajevo. So from a town with 12.000 inhabitants, Pale became a town with
1 30.000 inhabitants. The aid was distributed based on another
2 improvisation, but accompanied by proper documents. Everybody who needed
3 aid were given aid by some volunteers, by people who volunteered to
4 distribute this aid.
5 At that time, I did not fear any abuse. I did not fear that this
6 aid would be smuggled and sold on the black market. This was my main
7 concern. At the beginning, however, at the time showed that my fears were
8 not justified, that the distribution was fair and that the aid was --
9 reached the hands that needed it most.
10 I remember that it was made public that the aid would be
11 distributed on the main square, on a certain day, at a certain time, and
12 that if people were there at the time with their IDs, they could be given
13 packages so that they would have food over the next few days.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the shipment must be of some
15 relevance. Looking at the time you spent on it. I don't know whether
16 details as whether it was distributed on the market or on the streets --
17 could you please come to your point.
18 MR. JOSSE: I understand that, Your Honour. I'm going to move on.
19 I really was hoping this was going to lead to another aid shipment which
20 does have more relevance. Can I do that immediately?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so. And also please, in your
22 questioning and in the way you proceed, don't leave it a big puzzle for
23 the Chamber what the relevance of it is that you're asking.
24 MR. JOSSE: Perhaps I'm trying too hard not to lead, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps --
1 MR. JOSSE: That's --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps that's bothering you. I'm looking at
3 the Prosecution. I take it that if you would lead a little bit more,
4 that's what I suggested at the very beginning of the testimony as well,
5 that either Mr. Tieger or Mr. Harmon will jump up.
6 Please proceed.
7 MR. JOSSE:
8 Q. Well, I want to ask you about -- I am going to lead a little bit,
9 then. I want to ask you about another load of aid that was destined for
10 Sarajevo itself, actually after the war had started, that had come from
11 Serbia. Do you know what I'm talking about?
12 A. Yes, yes, I do.
13 Q. Now, I think we can take this quite shortly. This in fact was
14 also going to be distributed by the four charities you had previously
15 mentioned; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The aid arrived, presumably, in lorries by land from Serbia and
18 came to Pale, or near enough Pale; correct?
19 A. Yes. It arrived in Pale.
20 Q. You had a -- when was this?
21 A. I believe that this was in July 1992.
22 Q. You had a problem. There was a war going on in Sarajevo and you
23 had to get this aid to Sarajevo; correct?
24 A. A huge problem, a major problem, yes, that is correct.
25 Q. And I want you to describe, fairly briefly, how you managed to
1 solve this particular dilemma.
2 A. I learnt about this convoy from Mr. Krajisnik himself. He sent
3 his driver to pick me up. I believe that it was during the night. When I
4 arrived, he told me, very briefly, what that was all about, and he told me
5 that he was not in the position to organise anything. He asked me to
6 handle this consignment and to find a way to do it properly, by hook or by
8 Q. Now, I just want to stop there. "Properly" meant what? I mean,
9 that's perhaps really the point.
10 A. That meant that I was given instruction saying that the aid was
11 destined for Sarajevo, that it had to be distributed evenly among the four
12 organisations, the three that I have just mentioned, the Muslim, the
13 Croat, and Serb, and La Benevolencija, that was a Jewish humanitarian
14 organisation. Our conversation was very brief, two or three minutes at
15 the most, and then I asked him to give me his driver to take me to the
16 warehouse in the Famos company. They had a large warehouse, as a company
17 that had existed from before the war.
18 I unloaded the aid in their storage. I left one part for the
19 Dobrotvor, one fourth of the aid, and three-fourths I left in the
20 warehouse. On the following morning, I organised a convoy of trucks. I
21 transported the aid to Lukavica, to the Energoinvest company. This was
22 also a part that was held by the Serbs. Since I could not take any
23 chances with the loads of the drivers, I found a way through our office in
24 Sarajevo, through the technical personnel that was still there. I asked
25 them to get in touch with the Merhamet, the Caritas, and La Benevolencija,
1 to ask them to organise themselves so as to be able to come to Lukavica to
2 talk to me. I intended to give them their consignments.
3 They did arrive. They told me that they had been shot at on the
4 way. Mr. Tihomir Carkic was one of the participants in the meeting. Mr.
5 Radomir Neskovic was also present. But I believe that he was there to
6 talk about the Crisis Staff or something. In any case, he was not
7 involved in this particular part of the humanitarian work.
8 There was also a representative of the Caritas. He was a priest,
9 but I don't remember his name. And Merhamet was represented by a man whom
10 I knew. He was a paediatrician, and I believe that his name was Kerim
12 Together with the aid that was loaded onto their trucks, they
13 returned to Sarajevo and they distributed the goods there. I kept the
14 Dobrotvor part, one part in Lukavica, and the other part in Pale.
15 Q. I next want to ask you about whether there were any occasions that
16 you can remember that you had dealings with Mr. Krajisnik where he
17 assisted -- where he requested your assistance to help members of other
18 ethnic groups during the course of 1992.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, may I just interfere. Have you finished
20 with this special shipment?
21 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, I do understand that you want to inform the
23 Chamber that Mr. Krajisnik cooperated fairly to the distribution of that
25 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Why should we hear that it went to Lukavica and
2 whether it was a paediatrician who came for Caritas or someone else and
3 that it was later distributed over there? I mean, the message stops
4 already on the moment, I would say -- or there's still something to come,
5 but --
6 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, with respect, I don't accept that, for
7 this reason, for the simple reason that the Prosecution may not accept
8 this, and the details are important. The witness's recollection of who he
9 dealt with, where he dealt with them, why he dealt with them, puts the
10 whole story together, so to speak.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
12 MR. JOSSE: And gives it an air of credibility, which is so
13 important. Because I don't suppose Mr. Harmon is going to get up and say
14 that Mr. Krajisnik was such a nice man and he was very keen to help
15 Muslims during the war.
16 JUDGE ORIE: No. But if the witness would have told us it was a
17 surgeon rather than a paediatrician who came from Caritas -- unless
18 Mr. Harmon has serious doubts as to the reliability in this respect of
19 this witness. But it's a level of detail which, of course I do understand
20 that you want to establish that this is a reliable witness, but I really
21 wonder whether we're not going too far in a lot of details which -- let me
22 just give the example of the paediatrician and the surgeon, which
23 really -- I would not expect, as a matter of fact, Mr. Harmon to respond
24 to that unless he would have serious reasons to believe that this whole
25 story was not true.
1 Please keep this in mind if you continue. I'm not the one who
2 conducts the examination; it's you. And I do know what the practice is in
3 your jurisdiction. But sometimes I really wonder whether
4 it is of great assistance.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. JOSSE:
7 Q. Mr. Divcic, let's move on to another example, if you would,
8 please. The question was whether you're able to give other examples of
9 requests that Mr. Krajisnik made to you for assistance to be given to
10 members of other ethnic groups.
11 A. Yes. At that time, quite often helicopters, military helicopters,
12 would arrive from Serbia, carrying humanitarian aid. I can't tell you how
13 much in quantity aid would come, as much as a helicopter can contain. So
14 they would arrive and they would leave -- go back empty.
15 Q. I'm going to stop you. Try and follow as best we can the learned
16 Judge's instructions.
17 There was an incident involving a helicopter. Helicopter arrives.
18 What does Mr. Krajisnik say? I mean, that's the nub of it, please.
19 A. Mr. Krajisnik came across me by chance and he asked me whether I
20 could try and help some people go to Belgrade. He even thought that those
21 people were Muslims, friends of -- some friends of his, and they asked him
22 for help. And there was a family there with some plastic bags and they
23 looked pretty disoriented. So I tried to help them and I put them on that
24 particular helicopter. It is true that those people were Muslims. I
25 asked them what I could do for them. They told me that they would like to
1 go to Belgrade because they had family there. So I said that I will see
2 whether I could do something about it. I asked the pilots to take them.
3 The pilots did it really quite unwillingly, because it was against the
4 orders. And I put that family on the helicopter and they flew away to
6 I do not know who those people were. They never contacted me
7 again. Even then, I did not know their names.
8 But in principle, Mr. Krajisnik asked me then -- he told
9 me, "Please, help all those people who need help." He probably thought
10 that he had so many things to do and that he was quite exhausted, so he
11 asked me that, in general, I should help all those people who were in need
12 of assistance, regardless of who they were, Muslims, Croats, or even
13 Serbs. But I had to organise it in the least for the Serbs, because they
14 could simply take a bus and go to Belgrade.
15 Q. In Pale, in 1992, was there a mosque?
16 A. In 1992, in Pale, no, not no 1992. There was not one before 1992.
17 There isn't one there today. There is no mosque in Pale. There is only
18 one Serb Orthodox church in Pale. And there is also a Catholic church
20 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you about whether there came a time
21 where there were columns of Croat civilians who passed through Pale when
22 they were fleeing from the conflict that they were involved in at that
23 time with the Muslims.
24 A. Inasmuch as I can remember, it was already in 1993, it was not
25 only civilians but the soldiers as well, when a conflict broke out between
1 Muslims and Croats, a large group of maybe some 1.000 combatants, under
2 arms, and quite a large number of refugees, women and children, carrying
3 bags in their hands, they were encircled by the Muslims. And there was no
4 chance for them to go out of that blockade. And then the Serbs got there
5 and gave them food and drink. And I watched it on television, and I
6 watched the completely incredulous faces of the Croat soldiers. Because
7 we were at war with them, and they could not believe that the Serbs could
8 help them. And so they went through the Serb lines to the territory, to
9 the zone controlled by the HVO, that is, the Croat forces.
10 For them, it was completely unbelievable at the time that
11 something like that could happen.
12 Later on, we continued to fight, but we did let them go through
13 our territory.
14 It was a period of time when everyone was fighting everyone else.
15 First the Croats and the Muslims were together against the Serbs. Then
16 the Muslims started fighting the Croats, and at the same time, we fought
17 the ones and the others. And in the end, the Muslims fought other
18 Muslims. The forces loyal to Alija Izetbegovic fought the forces loyal to
19 Fikret Abdic.
20 Q. I next want to return, if I may, please, to events in Pale in
21 1992. To what extent did you have first-hand knowledge - and listen to
22 the question carefully, please - did you have first-hand knowledge of the
23 fact that Mr. Krajisnik's wife was injured in an incident and then
24 subsequently died in a hospital in Belgrade?
25 A. I met precisely in those days, whilst taking care of their
1 accommodation, the wife of Mr. Krajisnik. I did not know her, but from
2 what I could get, it was a very warm, modest woman who was solely
3 interested in taking care of her family. And at various occasions, I
4 brought relief aid to them so that they should not have to stand in the
5 queue to wait for it. And I had heard that she was ill. So I would take
6 that aid to them in the Panorama Hotel, in their room.
7 It must have been around the 19th or the 20th of August, which is
8 an Orthodox holiday, when Pale was shelled, and those shells fell around
9 the Panorama Hotel. Mrs. Krajisnik was outside of her room, and I think
10 that she fell down, and I think that she was injured quite seriously, not
11 from a shell. That is what I heard. But I arrived there straight away.
12 She simply felt very ill suddenly, and it was an aggravation of
13 the illness that she had at that time. So nobody knew whether it was a
14 fragment from the shell that caused that or not at that time, and she was
15 transferred to the medical centre and then she died.
16 Q. I'm going to stop you, because I wanted to know whether you had
17 first-hand knowledge of this. You didn't, is what you're telling us; is
18 that right? People told you what had happened after the event? You
19 didn't see Mrs. Krajisnik after she had been injured; is that correct?
20 A. That is correct. I heard all that a few hours after it had
22 Q. I'm going to move on. We know she died. Mr. Krajisnik was left
23 with three children. What domestic arrangements did he make for his
24 children, please? That do you have some first-hand knowledge of; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Tell the Chamber - you can be brief - what the domestic
2 arrangements he made were for his three young children.
3 A. He continued to live in Panorama, where he used to live before,
4 and his children were housed with the family they had in Pale. I believe
5 it was his wife's family, one of his wife's sisters. And they went to
6 school there. So I would meet them occasionally, because Pale is a small
7 place and you are bound to come across people in the street.
8 Q. A lady called Ratka Savic; is that right?
9 A. Yes, I think so. But I always have problems in remembering -- in
10 matching the names with the faces. I know that I do know her, but I can't
11 remember straight away now. But what I certainly do remember is the house
12 where they used to live.
13 Q. Mr. Divcic, again, changing the subject somewhat: In 1992, in
14 Pale, I want -- you had dealings with the four people I'm going to ask you
15 about, Professor Koljevic, Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, and Mrs. Plavsic;
16 that's right? You had dealings with all of them, to a greater or lesser
17 extent; correct? You're nodding your head. You should say something, but
18 the answer is clearly yes.
19 Of those four people, which were you closest to?
20 A. To Mr. Koljevic.
21 Q. And was he someone you would actually, use the English words,
22 obviously socialise with?
23 A. Because of the age difference and a difference in education, I
24 would not dare call myself his friend. But we would go for walks quite
25 often together. He was a man who could be quite fun, and I liked his
1 company. And according to what he would say to me, he liked my company.
2 We would stop quite often, have a cup of coffee, and then we would discuss
3 various things. He loved walks, and there are forests around, so he --
4 that's how we socialised.
5 Q. I want to ask you about what he said -- had to say to you about
6 Mr. Krajisnik. Did he say anything about Mr. Krajisnik to you?
7 A. No. No, or else I can't remember that he told me anything of any
8 importance and that it would be relevant for us today here.
9 Q. Did he ever suggest that Mr. Krajisnik was a member of the
10 Expanded Presidency?
11 A. No.
12 Q. What about Dr. Karadzic? You've described how you knew him well
13 in 1989, 1990. This was only two or three years later. He was clearly
14 very busy in 1992. Did you drink coffee with him, walk with him, at all?
15 A. No. On a few occasions, we did have lunch together, but that was
16 by chance and there were other people present there. It was not the same
17 kind of contact that I had with Mr. Koljevic. Maybe also because
18 Mr. Karadzic was very busy. Maybe not. Maybe he simply didn't want it.
19 But anyway, that's how things were. And our relationship was not a very
20 close one, relatively speaking. I was able to go to his office without
21 going through a special procedure if I needed for it, but I didn't do it,
22 because there wasn't really a need for it.
23 Q. Mrs. Plavsic?
24 A. As for Mrs. Plavsic, I have to say that our relationship was a
25 warm one. We did not really discuss politics. She was in charge of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 humanitarian issues at that time. But even so, we wouldn't discuss it
2 very often. I only know that we would greet one another very warmly when
3 we would come across one another, and that was very often. Otherwise we
4 didn't have very many things in common, which wasn't really necessary for
5 that type of socialising that we had.
6 Q. I'm sure I can lead on this. There come a time that she moved
7 from the Panorama Hotel to Rajska Dolina; is that right?
8 A. Yes. To Rajska Dolina, which is located at the summit of
10 Q. So, in other words, it's at a higher altitude than Pale?
11 A. At 1.800 metres.
12 Q. Have you any idea why Mrs. Plavsic moved to the summit of
14 A. We never discussed it, and I would not dare guess what she wanted
15 to do. The fact is, however, that Rajska Dolina was a quieter place than
16 Pale, because Pale used to be shelled. I can't tell you that she was
17 afraid and that then she decided to leave. But up there, the situation
18 was much quieter and the comfort was much better. Because Panorama was
19 really not a very comfortable place. So Rajska Dolina is some 12 or 13
20 kilometres away from Pale. It was at the top of the mountain and
21 absolutely outside of the range of shells.
22 Q. And finally, from this list, Mr. Krajisnik. What was your
23 relationship with him in 1992, particularly in comparison to the other
24 people I've just been through. You might want to use that as a gauge.
25 A. Well, I was the least close to him. Maybe that could be the
1 answer to your question. We would not go together for a coffee, we would
2 not walk around together, we would not socialise.
3 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, would that be a convenient moment? I
4 want to speak to Mr. Krajisnik before I complete this examination. I want
5 to say, he has been very helpful, as always. He provided me with a large
6 amount of material. But I promised him I would spend some time with him
7 in private before I completed my questioning, and I'd like to keep to
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You'd like to have an early break for that?
10 MR. JOSSE: I would. I am very near the end, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if we have a break of half an hour.
12 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until five minutes to 11.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.
17 MR. JOSSE: Thank you very much for the time, Your Honour.
18 Q. There are a number of matters I still want to deal with,
19 Mr. Divcic. Firstly: As a member of the political council of the SDS,
20 are you able to comment about whether there was a division in existence
21 between the party institutions and the running of the government?
22 A. What period of time are we talking about?
23 Q. Well, you tell us, if there is a difference. Let's first of all
24 deal at the time that the political council was in existence, which is
25 really up until the beginning of the war.
1 A. Yes, there was a clear division in the functions. The party
2 function, on the one hand, the political organ, the Assembly, chaired by
3 Mr. Krajisnik, the group of Assembly members in the Assembly of Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina. There were clear distinctions in the functions.
5 Q. And what about after the war had begun and the leadership moved to
6 Pale? Only comment if you're able to.
7 A. Well, then the functions were separated. The political council no
8 longer had an occasion to meet. They still existed, but they didn't meet.
9 All the other functions were separate. The government did one thing, the
10 Assembly did another thing. The Presidency had its tasks. The Dobrotvor
11 dealt with other matters.
12 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you about gentleman by the name of
13 Dragan Djukanovic, please. When - and just answer this literally when -
14 when did you first meet him?
15 A. Actually, it was before the 1990s, but just in passing, so we
16 didn't really know each other. We only met properly when the party, the
17 SDS, was founded, or after the first multi-party elections. That's when
18 we met, and we started seeing each other on a regular basis. He was not a
19 member of the SDS. He was the president of some other party. I believe
20 that the name of that party was the party of federalists or something like
22 I studied the programme of that party, and it was very similar, if
23 not the same, as the programme of the SDS and the programme of the SDA,
24 for that matter, and that was for all of us to stay in Yugoslavia.
25 Q. Now, I want to jump ahead to 1992 in Pale. Were you aware that
1 Mr. Djukanovic had moved to Pale when the war had begun?
2 A. Yes. I saw him up there. I would meet with him there, or bump
3 into him.
4 Q. What was his job? What was he doing in Pale?
5 A. When I saw him, I asked him what he did there, and he told me that
6 he was the advisor to President Koljevic. I checked that information with
7 Professor Koljevic later on, and yes, Professor Koljevic confirmed that to
8 me. And he explained to me that as many young people had to be involved
9 in the work of the institutions, the like-minded people.
10 Q. Did he have any role or function with Mr. Krajisnik, as far as you
11 were aware? This is Djukanovic I'm talking about.
12 A. No. Or at least I don't know of it. I believe that I would have
13 learnt if that was the case. In that conversation, he told me that he was
14 very happy, that he was appointed advisor to the vice-president of the
15 Presidency, Mr. Koljevic. He never mentioned either Mr. Krajisnik or any
16 other person, for that matter.
17 Q. I next want to ask you one or two matters to do with the Kikinda
18 building. You gave some evidence, I think it may have been yesterday,
19 about how that building came into existence, got its name. Again shortly,
20 because I suspect most people here know this anyway, what function did the
21 building perform in 1992 in Pale?
22 A. This was actually the seat of the Assembly, the Presidency, the
23 government, of all of the important things that were happening in the
24 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in that region, was happening in
25 that building there.
1 Q. I want to ask you about its fabric, its condition, in 1992. What
2 were the offices like? What was the furniture like, that type of thing,
4 A. Those were not offices. This place was a motel, and we used
5 kitchen tables instead of desks. There were one or two telephone lines
6 which were not working properly. So again, we're talking about another
7 improvisation. The conditions were not in place for any kind of serious
8 work. Nevertheless, this was the most appropriate thing that could be had
9 at that time.
10 Q. By "appropriate," you mean the best -- there was no better option
12 A. Precisely so.
13 Q. And you mentioned the telephone lines. I think you said there
14 were one or two. Literally, one or two lines, so only one or two people
15 could be on the telephone at any one given time. Is that what you're
17 A. Yes. If those two people were lucky enough to get through after
18 having spent several minutes dialling a number. In that part of the
19 Sarajevo Romanija region, some 30 kilometres of its size in various
20 directions, one could not establish any sort of communication. I'm
21 talking about this region because you could easily drive across that
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, the last answer is not perfectly clear to
24 me. "One could not establish any sort of communication." Is that to say,
25 Mr. Divcic, that there was no possibility of telephone communication?
1 Because at the same time you say that there were a few lines and it was
2 difficult and that you had to dial several times. Is it to say that it
3 was difficult or that it was impossible?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very difficult.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
6 MR. JOSSE:
7 Q. There was a massacre of Serbs in a place called Zepa. You no
8 doubt have heard about that.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I'm not asking you about that incident at all. What I want to
11 know is: As a result of that, was there an incident outside the Kikinda
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Would you tell the Chamber about that, please.
15 A. People were outraged. They had heard about the murders in Zepa,
16 and they blamed the leadership and a bad organisation. I live very near
17 Kikinda. On the following day, when I arrived there, I heard that some
18 soldiers had --
19 Q. One moment, Mr. Divcic.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We're trying to find the context in time of this
22 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
23 Q. When was this?
24 MR. JOSSE: I'm grateful to Your Honour.
25 A. The Zepa incident took place on the 4th of June, if I'm not
1 mistaken. This was the first time that the soldiers from Pale had met
2 with the coffins that arrived in Pale.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You did not mention the year. Is that the 4th of
4 June, 1992?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1992.
6 MR. JOSSE:
7 Q. Yes. I stopped you, Mr. Divcic. You said that you live very near
8 the Kikinda. On the following day, when you arrived there, you heard that
9 some soldiers had ...
10 Take it from there, please.
11 A. Some soldiers were being taken to some positions or were being
12 brought to some positions. They were outraged by the murders that they
13 had heard of and they opened fire on the Kikinda building in Pale as they
14 were being brought to their positions.
15 On the following day, when I arrived there, I was told that that
16 had happened, and at the beginning, those who were in Kikinda thought that
17 they had come under a Muslim attack. It was dark. It was during the
18 night. And they were afraid that the Muslim forces had broken a line and
19 that they had opened fire on them.
20 Q. And how was it ascertained that it was Serb forces that had done
22 A. Because it was never ascertained that it was the Muslims who did
23 that. If that had been the case, they would have been prosecuted or
24 somebody would have gone after them. And it was clear, on the following
25 day -- I'm not aware of anybody being taken to task for having done that.
1 But in any case, it is certain that it was not the Muslim forces who had
2 done that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one question to clarify. You said if it
4 would have been the Muslims, they would have been prosecuted. That
5 suggests - I'm just putting that to you - that if one would suspect that
6 it was Serbs, that they would not be prosecuted; is that a correct
7 understanding of your testimony or is it not?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We're talking about war conflicts.
9 They would not have been prosecuted and criminally charged. We would --
10 actually, the army would have been after them to physically destroy them.
11 That's what would have happened.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So the emphasis is that they would have gone after
13 them rather than that they would be prosecuted. Yes. That's clear.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.
15 MR. JOSSE:
16 Q. I in fact next want to ask you about Muslim departure from Pale.
17 The vast majority of Muslims who lived in Pale before the war left; is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you play any part in their departure?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Were you aware that they left?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Who was responsible for organising their departure?
25 A. I believe it was the municipal bodies on the initiative of the
1 Muslims. There were some 3.500 of them before the war, and due to the
2 situation and as a result of the death in -- deaths in Zepa and the
3 murders of some youngsters on the 8th of June in Trebevic, and as a result
4 of all the stories from the Serbian refugees about the killings of the
5 Serbs who had remained in Sarajevo, who had not been able to leave
6 Sarajevo because of the inner ring that had been established by the Muslim
7 forces, and under their control, so nobody could leave the town, for all
8 those reasons, the Muslims started to feel insecure and they asked for a
9 meeting, as far as I know, with the municipal leadership. And they, in
10 turn, asked for a meeting with the leadership, i.e., the Presidency. I
11 know that from my conversations with Mr. Nikola Koljevic, in a chance
12 meeting, he told me, "I'm sorry. I'm in a rush. We can't talk. The
13 Muslims want to move out. They don't feel safe. I am on my way there to
14 try and convince them, but they are safe, and try to convince them, if at
15 all possible, not to leave, not to go anywhere from here."
16 That was one of our chance meetings. On the following day, I
17 believe it was, he told me -- we talked. I don't know whether I was
18 successful. I'll talk to them again. After that, I didn't see him again,
19 but I know that a whole convoy of buses was organised to transport the
20 Muslims and their personal belongings. And they left Pale to go to
21 Sarajevo, to the part that they wanted to go to, the part that was under
22 the control of the Muslim forces.
23 Q. I wanted to ask you about Professor Koljevic's role in their
24 departure. You didn't attend any of these meetings. He told you about
25 them in the way that you've just described; is that right?
1 A. No.
2 Q. I've asked two questions. It's my fault.
3 A. Precisely so. I did not attend any of those meetings. It was
4 Mr. Koljevic who told me about them.
5 Q. What would you say to the suggestion that Muslims were forced
6 involuntarily to leave Pale?
7 A. I would say that this is not true. However, I fully appreciate
8 the uncertainty that they felt after the deaths of so many people in Pale.
9 If I had been in their shoes, maybe -- actually, not maybe. I'm more than
10 certain that I would have acted in the same way.
11 Q. I asked you before the break whether Professor Koljevic had ever
12 suggested to you that Mr. Krajisnik was a member of any Expanded
13 Presidency, and you said no. I should perhaps have asked you the same
14 question about Mrs. Plavsic and Dr. Karadzic. Did either of them ever
15 suggest that Mr. Krajisnik was a member of an Expanded Presidency?
16 A. No.
17 Q. I'd like to ask you about Mr. Krajisnik, in conclusion, your
18 impressions of him, through really 1991, 1992. Did you get the impression
19 that he was a popular figure amongst Serbs, first in Bosnia-Herzegovina
20 and then in the Republika Srpska?
21 A. The word "popular" in the Serbian language is mostly associated
22 with some other profession. For example, a singer, a pop star, can be
23 popular. But let me try and answer your question. The answer is no. On
24 the contrary, that was not my impression.
25 Q. So what was your impression?
1 A. He was held in high esteem. People believed that he would not
2 betray them. After one or two years of the existence of the Assembly, we
3 wanted to have firm people as members of our negotiating team, people who
4 would not falter, who would not be bribed, who would not betray the
5 Serbian national interest. And I perceived this as being the case, and I
6 thought, and other people I spoke to, believed that Krajisnik would not be
7 bribed and that he would not agree to something that would go against the
8 Serbian national interests.
9 Q. And what about his actual power? Are you able to comment upon
10 that? Did you regard him, both from what you saw of him and from what you
11 gleaned from other sources, as a powerful man?
12 A. Not only me. I personally did not consider him powerful, because
13 I knew he was not powerful. Others also did not consider him powerful.
14 He had his authorities, and those authorities were very much connected
15 with the work of the Assembly. That's where he was. He was the Speaker
16 for the Assembly, and that's where his authorities stemmed from. And save
17 for that, he did not have any other authorities, nor was he powerful.
18 Q. When you say: "I knew he was not powerful," what do you mean by
19 the word "powerful"?
20 A. If he had been powerful, he would have found accommodation for
21 himself. He would not have asked me to do it. Maybe he would have helped
22 me to find better accommodation than was my house at the time, where there
23 was no electricity for a year while I was staying there. If he had been
24 powerful, he would have been able to deal with his own problems on his
1 Q. And that deals with personal power. What about executive power
2 within the Republika Srpska? Are you able to comment on that?
3 A. He did not have any executive power. He was the Speaker of the
4 parliament. The parliament has its president and its members of
5 parliament who decide. He had just one vote in the Assembly, not more
6 than that. The way the parliament functions is for certain parties to
7 have their groups of assemblymen. He did not even attend the meetings of
8 the group of the SDS members when they had meetings during the breaks in
9 order to agree on their position on a certain issue. The group of the SDS
10 assemblymen in 1991 was presided over by Professor Vojislav Maksimovic, as
11 far as I know. Not even there did Mr. Krajisnik have anything else but
12 one simple vote. By definition, an assembly is a legislative rather than
13 an executive body.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask for one clarification. You said,
15 Mr. Divcic, "He did not even attend the meetings of the group of the SDS
16 members when they had meetings during the breaks."
17 Then you said: "The group was presided over by Professor Vojislav
18 Maksimovic, as far as I know. Not even there did Mr. Krajisnik have
19 anything else but one simple vote."
20 On the one hand, you say he did not attend; on the other hand, you
21 say he was not presiding, he had only one vote in that type of meeting.
22 What is it?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was misinterpreted. I was not
24 talking about his attendance but about him being the leader of that group.
25 It was his obligation to attend the meetings, but he was not the president
1 of the group of SDS assemblymen.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that clarification.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.
4 MR. JOSSE: Yes. That ends my examination.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Josse.
6 Mr. Harmon or Mr. Tieger, are you ready to -- it will be
7 Mr. Harmon, I understand. Are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
8 MR. HARMON: I am, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Divcic, you'll now be cross-examined by
10 Mr. Harmon, who is counsel for the Prosecution.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Harmon:
12 Q. Mr. Divcic, good morning.
13 A. Good morning, sir.
14 Q. On your last part of your evidence, Mr. Divcic, did you ever
15 attend any sessions of the Bosnian Serb Presidency?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Now, let me go to a portion of your evidence that was -- just
18 before the break, you testified that you had -- were in Pale and you were
19 completely surprised, in fact it was unbelievable that the Bosnian Serbs
20 would let a thousand combatants from the HVO through the Serb lines. Do
21 you remember that testimony?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. Were you aware -- I'm sorry. Also, that this, as far as you can
24 recall, took place in 1993; is that correct?
25 A. Yes. I think that it happened in 1993. I'm not completely sure
1 of that.
2 Q. And in 1993, in Central Bosnia, a war had erupted between the
3 Muslims and the Croats; isn't that correct?
4 A. That is why I thought of 1993.
5 Q. Were you aware that there were cooperative arrangements between
6 the Bosnian Serb army and the HVO in respect of that particular war, that
7 they had become, in part, allies in that war?
8 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
9 Q. Were you aware that there were agreements between the HVO and the
10 VRS to permit civilians and combatants to go through the Serb front lines?
11 A. No, I wasn't.
12 Q. Mr. Divcic, thank you very much.
13 MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.
15 Judge Hanoteau has one or more questions to you.
16 Questioned by the Court:
17 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, sir. I'd like to go back to
18 the second instance in which you lost your job when you left Sarajevo to
19 go to Pale. Yesterday, as I understood it, you lost your job because you
20 held a political position. Could you tell us how you were fired, how you
21 lost your job.
22 A. Well, I simply stopped going to work because I stayed in Pale.
23 The roads were cut. I was unable to go back to my apartment, let alone to
24 go to work. And where I used to live was still no man's land, and one
25 could go there. But had I gone there, my life would have been in danger
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 and I saw no reason to go back to my flat. And as for going back to work,
2 I didn't want to do that because the building was on the other side of the
3 Miljacka, which was a dividing line between -- in the city. And everybody
4 knew that I was politically active.
5 Later on, in 1993, when a colleague of mine who used to work in
6 the same office managed to get out of Sarajevo, he was a Croat and I
7 helped him go to Belgrade, and later on he went abroad. What he told me
8 then was, "You took the right decision because you would have been in
9 trouble. Had you gone back to work, you would have been killed."
10 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] In other words, you were not
11 fired. You didn't go back to work, and as a result, you lost your job,
12 and you said you did well to do so. But you were not expelled from work
13 by anyone. In other words, you never received a decision whereby you had
14 lost your job for a particular reason?
15 A. You are right. It was only after the war just to --
16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Fine. Fine. Please continue.
17 A. Because of the -- yes. Just to confirm that I did work there for
18 a number of years. I got from the company, that is, really the pension
19 fund, a document stating that I work for the electrical grid up until the
20 11th of April, 1992, and that my job ceased -- came to an end on that
21 particular date. No reasons were given in that document.
22 But the reasons are very clear. I came across many Serbs who got
23 out of Sarajevo and who were in a very similar situation that I was.
24 Maybe they were much less known than I was, and they had really great
25 difficulties in order to -- and they had difficulties to get out. Some of
1 them simply disappeared, but those who went to work during that period of
2 time, they were harassed whilst they were at work. And some of them were
3 dismissed as well.
4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have another
5 question to put to you, if I may. As far as the departure from Pale of
6 Muslims is concerned, the question was put to you, and your counsel - I'm
7 sorry - Mr. Josse asked you a number of questions regarding this
8 particular issue. And you said: "I have perfectly understood the
9 uncertainty which the Muslims must have -- uncertain positions the Muslims
10 must have felt after so many people had died. Had I been in their shoes,
11 I would have done the same."
12 I'd like you to spell this out for us a little bit, because I was
13 not in Pale at the time. What did you mean when you said this, when you
14 said, "after the deaths of so many people"? What had happened in Pale?
15 Why is it that the Muslims had rather leave? And could you describe these
16 events for us, please.
17 A. As for the events, the first one happened on the 4th of June, in
18 Zepa. The second one during a religious procession when the coffins
19 arrived in the Serbian Orthodox church in the centre of Pale and when we
20 were all gathered there to pay respects to the dead. And that was
21 immediately before they were to be buried. So at that time, Muslim forces
22 made an offensive out of Sarajevo and Trebevic, and the Serbs found
23 themselves in great difficulties. Then the religious procession was
24 interrupted. And over the microphone it was transmitted that all people
25 who were capable to fight, go and put themselves at the disposal in Pale.
1 So all young men that were able to fight left. Many heavy combats took
2 place there, and many Serbs from Pale died in them.
3 And then we have to understand that our neighbours, Serbs, are
4 dying, and they were killed by some Muslims that were not from Pale. But
5 they started feeling uneasy, because you can't control the father of a
6 young man who died, who can -- carrying a gun, create havoc with his gun.
7 So I understand them, as a man.
8 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] In other words, the Muslims left
9 because they were afraid of reprisals?
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you for the answers you
12 have provided us with.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Divcic, I have a few questions for you as well.
14 First, in relation to the last questions put to you by Judge
15 Hanoteau: This Zepa incident was in June, wasn't it?
16 A. Yes, in early June.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was there any movement of Muslims out of Pale
18 before June?
19 A. I am not aware of that, but certainly not in an organised way and
20 not in any great numbers. The majority of Muslims remained in Pale.
21 Everybody was expecting a political solution to the crisis. They didn't
22 want to leave the place where they were born. These were local people.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So if I do understand you well, there was not a
24 moving out of any significance of Muslims before June from Pale?
25 A. That's correct, as far as I know.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
2 Are you aware, do you have any knowledge, of truck-loads of
3 detained people coming to Pale, not as a final destination, either in May
4 or in June, from elsewhere or from the Sarajevo area? Do you have any
5 knowledge of that?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us about it.
8 A. A convoy came. I believe some 600 men, able-bodied. So they came
9 to Pale. I was not involved with that, and I didn't even see them. But
10 from other people who saw that, I am aware of the fact. They spent a
11 night in the sports hall in the very centre of Pale. They were to be
12 escorted to Sarajevo under the control of the Muslim forces, and that is
13 how it was done.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Where did they come from? Did you hear about that?
15 A. Apparently, some of them were volunteers. Those were the rumours
16 at the time. And I can't tell you exactly whether some of these rumours
17 were true, or which one was true. We heard that there were volunteers
18 from Sandzak who wanted to help their Muslim brethren and then
19 subsequently they were arrested.
20 Another rumour was mentioning the environments of Bratunac or
21 Zvornik. So various rumours were around, and I can't tell you which one
22 was the true one. But certainly it was only able-bodied men who were in
23 that convoy. There were neither women nor children, nor elderly people in
24 that convoy.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You say there were neither women nor children. Is
1 that what you were told? Because you --
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Was that an event which caught some attention, 600
4 people arriving?
5 A. Well, it did catch attention, because 600 able-bodied men on the
6 enemy territory, you can expect them to become armed, and if there is any
7 escalation, then there would be war, either that they would shoot upon you
8 and you would shoot upon them.
9 JUDGE ORIE: In your conversations with people you met in Pale who
10 had some authority - I'm not talking about ordinary citizens - was the
11 matter discussed?
12 A. No. I never talked about that with the people who had authority
13 in those matters. I only talked to ordinary people about it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Was it the talk of the day, to say it in plain
15 English, that this, well, substantive numbers --
16 A. Yes, precisely so.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Did you speak to anyone who had any personal
18 knowledge of what happened, or was it just all rumours?
19 A. Yes. I talked to somebody who had first-hand knowledge of it. He
20 was in charge of the security of that group of people while they were in
21 the sports hall.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Did he tell you that these were only able-bodied men?
23 A. He was amongst the others who told me that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers. The Panorama Hotel you
25 were talking about, could you tell us whether it accommodated also
1 citizens without any official position?
2 A. Yes. They were there, housed there.
3 JUDGE ORIE: What was their percentage on the whole of the
4 population in the Panorama Hotel?
5 A. I think that most of them were in that category.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So I'm just trying to find out whether the Panorama
7 Hotel was a place where mainly officials and persons of a -- were
8 accommodated or whether it was --
9 A. No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- a general place where everyone could be
12 A. Precisely so. And out of the people that I knew, people who had
13 certain positions, if I really try and think hard, I think it was only
14 Mr. Krajisnik who stayed on the longest, up until the end, I would say,
15 even after the war. Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: If I could call them celebrities, could you tell us
17 what other celebrities stayed there, although shorter?
18 A. Radovan Karadzic lived in a house that was within the compound,
19 but it was a separate house. However, it belonged to the Hotel Panorama.
20 It was a house there. And he spent some time there with his family. I
21 did not take part in organising his accommodation.
22 At the start, there was an idea that in the Kikinda building,
23 because it had rooms where people could sleep, some important members of
24 the leadership should be accommodated there with their families. But
25 later on, they abandoned the idea because they thought that family life
1 would be a nuisance to the work of the institutions.
2 Later on, there was Biljana Plavsic as well, but I did not take
3 part in organising her accommodation either. And I believe Nikola
4 Koljevic never lived there. I know that he was all the time in Pale. I
5 can't tell you exactly where he lived. But there were also other people
6 there in passing, some ministers who spent some time there waiting to find
7 a better solution. Some people would spend a few nights there.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. If you'd just give me one
10 You told us that Mr. Krajisnik would only come to the meetings of
11 the political council if he was invited. Could you tell us how often he
12 was invited? I think you said that altogether there were some ten
13 meetings. Is that correct or am I wrong?
14 A. Some ten meetings? I do not know what you mean.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps that's a mistake. Please tell us how often
16 you met and how often Mr. Krajisnik was invited.
17 A. The political council met after the elections every week. I am
18 sure that they met every Monday at 6.00 p.m., in the offices of the party.
19 Mr. Krajisnik did not attend the meetings very often. He would only come
20 when invited, when the members of the council wanted an explanation in
21 relation to his work in the Assembly.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give us a few examples of that?
23 A. In 1991, Mr. Izetbegovic is moving slightly away from his
24 intention to have a united Bosnia and Herzegovina within Yugoslavia, and
25 there was a animated debate in the Assembly about that. There was an
1 attempt at that time to pass the so-called declaration on the sovereignty
2 of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Assembly. That declaration was redacted
3 in such a way that it implied that the sovereignty of Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina is derived from the citizens themselves and not by taking into
5 account the sovereignty of every constituent people.
6 The Serb members of parliament thought that it would be a trap
7 because you would then introduce the principle of one man, one vote,
8 which -- it's not unusual in countries with only one nation who lives
9 there and that are well organised. But this was not a one-nation country,
10 and if there are 20 members of parliament, then they can make a proposal,
11 in writing, to put to bill for reading at something that is called the
12 Council for the National Equality, and that is the body which stopped the
13 declaration. And that was the topic on the agenda of the council, because
14 it was not to be permitted to introduce the one-man, one-vote system.
15 The Serbs were proposing something called the chamber of the
16 peoples, a body that would have a right of veto and that would provide the
17 vital national interests of every people.
18 If I may add, by the way, that the lawyers interpreted that as
19 being anti-constitutional and that is something that was discussed at the
21 Later on, the declaration was imposed by a majority vote. In the
22 meantime, somewhere in mid-1991, Alija Izetbegovic made a speech. In his
23 speech, he was less strict than in the declaration, but he implied that if
24 Slovenia and Croatia would leave Yugoslavia, that Bosnia and Herzegovina
25 could follow suit. And the Assembly procedure in those matters, if I
1 remember well, was of a qualified simple majority. And there was a
2 newspaper that was called, I think, Muslimanski Glas, that is, the Muslim
3 voice, they published an article that saying for some unjustified reasons,
4 five or six members of the parliament were not in the parliament on that
5 day. And that is why his proposal was not adopted, because there's only
6 one Muslim vote that was missing in order for that declaration to be
8 There is something else that I remember that Mr. Izetbegovic said,
9 and that really had great echo in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Can I go on? Well,
10 he was the president of the Presidency, which means that he was also the
11 president of the largest political party, the largest Muslim party. He
12 said, "We are going to sacrifice peace in order to have a sovereign Bosnia
13 and Herzegovina." That was like a bombshell. That was a declaration of
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were there -- first of all, I'd like to ask
16 you, because my question was about the presence of Mr. Krajisnik in the
17 political council. You explained as an example, although quite a wide
18 range of matters. What did you need Mr. Krajisnik for to discuss this?
19 A. We wanted him to share with us his impressions. We wanted to be
20 recipients of the first-hand information rather than those who would
21 receive information from TV and newspapers. We were also duty-bound and
22 we also had a moral obligation to listen to him, and it was also his moral
23 obligation to come and talk to us about his first-hand knowledge. Very
24 often during those breaks, things were being said that were not broadcast
25 on television, and he was the one who was best suited to tell us what they
2 JUDGE ORIE: Do I have to understand this last part of your answer
3 that, well, part of the political debate took place not in public, in
4 parliament, but that the meetings of the members of the Assembly during
5 the breaks were of importance for choosing positions and -- is that how I
6 have to understand the last part of your answer?
7 A. Let me give you an example that has nothing to do with
8 Mr. Krajisnik. Mr. Karadzic said, for example, at the council that the
9 Muslims in the Assembly were aware that this initiative, this declaration,
10 could be blocked in the way that I have just described. And in the break,
11 he was told, "If you block this, if you prevent this from happening, we
12 will advocate confederation, together with Slovenia and Croatia." Those
13 were unofficial conversations, outside the Assembly.
14 There was also another unofficial story that Mr. Karadzic shared
15 with us, that only Muslims and Croats would secede and join Croatia. I'm
16 still not sure until this very day how they planned to do that.
17 JUDGE ORIE: But it seems that you're mixing up now two things. I
18 asked you about meetings of the members of the Assembly, and I understood
19 these meetings to be meetings of members of one of the parties, whereas
20 you just explained to us what the conversations were about on an
21 inter-party basis. I asked you about whether these meetings where the
22 members of the Assembly belonging to one party, and of course then I'm
23 referring to the SDS at this moment, whether these meetings were of
24 importance for, well, making up your mind, choosing positions, matters
25 that were not openly discussed during the Assembly meetings.
1 A. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Those were unofficial, informal
2 conversations during the Assembly session breaks in the corridors, and it
3 all depended who said what, with what particular political weight and who
4 those things were said to. However, because of the overall atmosphere and
5 of everything that was happening, we simply wanted to be privy to all the
6 aspects of what was going on.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then you're talking about conversations in the
8 corridors, but you earlier talked about a meeting of Assembly members
9 belonging to a specific party not being presided over by Mr. Krajisnik.
10 That sounds different from occasional meetings in corridors. That sounds
11 like meetings, where you usually are in the same room, where you close the
12 door when the meeting starts. Have you any personal knowledge of it? If
13 not, please tell me.
14 A. No. I have no personal knowledge, because I did not attend those
15 meetings. Only assemblymen could attend those meetings. As the name has
16 it, it was the group of the assemblymen of the SDS party. And this was
17 their official position and this is what we could watch on TV. It was
18 that position that they spoke about openly. They presented it publicly at
19 the Assembly meetings.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Does this answer also imply that you do not know how
21 these meetings actually were conducted? You told us that Mr. Krajisnik
22 was not presiding over these meetings. What's the basis of that
24 A. Based on the book of rules of the work of those groups. This is a
25 common procedure. I know who the president was at the time. I believe
1 that that was Professor Vojislav Maksimovic, and he should have done it by
2 the book. I never saw him chairing any of these meetings. I was never in
3 the room where those meetings were taking place. However, the logic of
4 the whole thing implies that things should have been done by the book.
5 There was a book of rules that governed those meetings. I hope I've been
7 JUDGE ORIE: And you have no information about how these meetings
8 really took place?
9 A. No, no.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer, for those answers.
11 Have the questions of the Bench raised any need to put further
12 questions to the witness?
13 MR. JOSSE: I've got one question in fact that arises from
14 Mr. Harmon's cross-examination, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. JOSSE: And I've got one question --
17 JUDGE ORIE: I should have asked you before, as a matter of fact,
18 Mr. Josse. Apologies for taking the wrong order. But now you have it all
20 MR. JOSSE: Exactly. I assume, bearing in mind how short the
21 cross-examination was, that was what Your Honour was doing, and if I may
22 say, with respect, it seemed a very sensible course.
23 Re-examined by Mr. Josse:
24 Q. You were asked whether you had attended any sessions of the
25 Bosnian Serb Presidency and you said that you had not attended any such
1 sessions. Did you attend any sessions of the Republika Srpska Assembly?
2 A. As an observer, when they took place in Pale, I was there very
4 Q. And are you able to say how many times you attended such sessions?
5 A. Five, six, seven, eight. I attended those that I had an
6 opportunity to attend if I had the time, when my duties permitted me to do
8 Q. The other issue I want to ask you about is you were asked some
9 questions about your knowledge of the group of people that were detained
10 in the sports hall in Pale, and you said that though you had no personal,
11 first-hand knowledge of it, you spoke to someone who did have first-hand
12 knowledge, and in fact you specified in your evidence what their role was
13 in the detention of these individuals. Just yes or no: Are you prepared
14 to name that person?
15 A. His name was Stevica. He resided in Pale. I can't remember his
16 last name at the moment. He got killed towards the end of the war,
17 actually. I know that he was an athlete. I knew him rather well. I
18 can't remember his last name, but I can let you know what it is later on.
19 His name was Stevan.
20 Q. Going back to the other topic I wanted to re-examine you on,
21 namely, the issue of meetings of the Assembly, the RS Assembly. What
22 period are we talking about that you attended meetings?
23 A. I attended one or two sessions, maybe, in 1991, that is, before
24 the war or the conflict. And the others I attended during the period
25 between 1992 and 1995. And even after the war. After the first
1 multi-party elections after the war. Those meetings often took place in
2 the Bistrica Hotel on Mount Jahorina and I was there. Some of them I can
3 still remember. I can tell you about them.
4 Q. I'm not going to ask you about that. Thank you.
6 MR. JOSSE: I have nothing else, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: No further questions. Mr. Harmon.
8 Further cross-examination by Mr. Harmon:
9 Q. Mr. Divcic, Judge Orie asked you some questions about the 600
10 people who were able-bodied men and who were brought to Bratunac and
11 detained in the sports hall. Can you tell us, please, the distance
12 between the sports hall and the Kikinda building?
13 A. Three to four kilometres.
14 Q. And the distance between the Panorama Hotel and the sports hall?
15 A. Two, three.
16 Q. And what is -- was there a police station that was next to the
17 sports hall?
18 A. Yes, actually, very close to it.
19 Q. What was the distance between the police station and the sports
20 hall, approximately?
21 A. They are separated just by one street.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. HARMON: No additional questions.
24 JUDGE ORIE: This, then, Mr. Divcic, concludes your evidence in
25 this Court. I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The Hague and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to answer questions of both parties and of the Bench, and I hope you'll
2 have a safe trip home again.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Divcic out
5 of the courtroom.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.
8 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could I mention a brief procedural matter
9 that flows, really, from what's just happened.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. JOSSE: And I'd observe this as well, the same happened with
12 the last witness, Mr. Vasic. I'm not saying there's a great deal of
13 importance in what I'm saying, but I think it is worth mentioning and the
14 Chamber clarifying the position here and now.
15 In our submission, the correct order of questioning after
16 questions from the Bench are Prosecution and then Defence. In effect, the
17 party calling a witness should be entitled to ask the witness the last
18 questions, as long as, of course, as the questions are asked, arise either
19 from cross-examination of the Prosecution or cross-examination -- or the
20 questions asked by the Bench. That, in our submission, is the proper
21 procedure that should be adopted from now on.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll give it some thought, Mr. Josse. Now and
23 then you tell us that coming from a certain jurisdiction, that you have
24 some difficulties in finding your way through this system. You'll
25 understand that I come from a system, and as a matter of fact, all three
1 Judges come from a system where it's always the Judges who finally conduct
2 the examination of witnesses, added and assisted by the parties. So I
3 certainly take it -- I take your suggestion, think it over, and if I agree
4 with you, and why would I not agree with you, then we'll certainly adopt
5 that procedure.
6 MR. JOSSE: Could I say, I accept that in the event that the
7 Prosecution ask questions and the Defence then wanted to ask further
8 questions that arose, I have little doubt that the Bench would allow the
9 Defence to do that. Having said that, in my submission, it would be
10 better to regularise things in the way that I've suggested.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I fully agree with you that if it were only that
12 everyone knows what to expect, that we should regularise.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: There are a number of procedural issues outstanding.
15 The Chamber, of course, is -- did not expect the cross-examination would
16 take that little time, and therefore, we had in mind after this break
17 to -- after the break to come, to deal with these procedural matters. I
18 haven't got everything in front of me which I would need to deal with the
19 procedural matters, so I suggest to the parties that we have a break of
20 the normal length and then deal with procedural matters on from a quarter
21 to 1.00.
22 MR. HARMON: That's satisfactory, Your Honour. One procedural
23 matter we would like to deal with, outstanding, and just to put on the
24 agenda, is the issue of Mr. Davidovic.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That was, as a matter of fact, one of the
1 things I had in mind. We have some others as well, such as -- perhaps not
2 something to be discussed at this moment, but from my memory, I say that
3 on the 3rd of November, that the time-limit for, well, giving names of
4 experts or at least informing the Chamber about expert reports expires, so
5 the Chamber is very much interested to know whether sufficient progress
6 has been made in order not to be surprised by the 3rd of November.
7 These are matters I'd like to discuss after a break of 25 minutes.
8 So we'll resume at a quarter to 1.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.18 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 12.55 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I'd first like to deal with the exhibits that have
12 been tendered in relation to the testimony of Witness Vasic. Numbers have
13 already been assigned to documents ranging from P945 up until P959. So
14 it's -- as always, you can check later on the list of the registrar how
15 it is exactly described, how these exhibits are described. But these are
16 the documents that have been assigned numbers already.
17 There's one issue on P954, which is a contextual document, not
18 specifically introduced through the witness Vasic. But we have received
19 only a B/C/S copy. That's the people of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the ethnic
20 composition in settlements.
21 Mr. Tieger, I don't think that we have received an English
22 translation yet.
23 MR. TIEGER: The Court is quite right, because there apparently is
24 none yet, and we will make efforts to provide a translation as quickly as
25 we possibly can.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, it is provisionally described as "people
2 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, ethnic composition in settlements, Zagreb,
3 April, state bureau for statistics, 1995" that's how I find it on my list.
4 But of course, since there's no English translation, I have some
5 difficulties in verifying that. It surprises me that Zagreb, which, to my
6 knowledge, is in Croatia and that the state bureau in 1995 would provide
7 the data for the people of Bosnia and Herzegovina. But it may be true.
8 I'm just drawing your attention to that. No decision, of course, will be
9 taken on admission of that document until we have received a translation.
10 So first, with the exception of 954, I'd like to hear whether the
11 Defence has any objections against admission of Exhibits P945 up to and
12 including P959.
13 MR. JOSSE: No, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Then these documents, with the
15 exception, again, of 954, are admitted into evidence.
16 Then we have a couple of exhibits which were not yet assigned
17 numbers. The first one is a decision removing Vasic from his position as
18 director of the Republika Srpska roads and directorate from other public
19 positions he holds. That would, Mr. Registrar, be P960?
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Translation, same number, .1
22 Next one, press article from Glas, dated 2nd of June,
23 entitled "Capable of defending ourselves by S. Rizvic." That would,
24 Mr. Registrar, be?
25 THE REGISTRAR: That would be, Your Honours, P961, and the English
1 translation will be P961.1.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then the next one would be press article, Glas, dated
3 3rd of June, entitled "People is the army" by an author D.R. Would be?
4 THE REGISTRAR: P962, Your Honours, and the English translation
5 will be P962.1.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
7 Then next one, press article from Glas, dated the 8th of June,
8 entitled "Born in the war," by Mr. Reljic [phoen].
9 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P963, Your Honours, with the English
10 translation, P963.1.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then the last would be the video of a rally of
12 support to Radovan Karadzic, Milan Martic, General Mladic and the Serbian
13 officers. The video would be?
14 THE REGISTRAR: P964, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then do we have the transcript of this video in
16 B/C/S or do we not -- or do we only have --
17 THE REGISTRAR: Only in English, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Only in English. It's not in the transcript. Of
19 course, we have -- it has not been translated, from what I remember, but
20 we said at that time, since the transcript would be in evidence, that
21 specific reference in the transcript of this hearing was made to the
22 transcript of the video, so that it would be accessible to an Appeal
23 Chamber if there would ever be an Appeals Chamber to hear this case. It's
24 also available to the public in this way, being this a public document.
25 B/C/S version, the original video clip is in B/C/S. I would rather stick
1 to the rule that we have the evidence, written evidence, available in two
3 MR. TIEGER: Very well, Your Honour. We'll certainly take care of
5 JUDGE ORIE: So we still are waiting for a translation in -- well,
6 a B/C/S version of the transcript of this video, and provisionally, I
7 would say that then the transcript would be -- the video clip would
8 be P964, the transcript would then be P964A, for the original in B/C/S we
9 are still expecting to receive, and P964A.1 for the English translation.
10 I do understand that -- well, I do not know whether the Defence
11 insists on postponing a decision of admission of this video until we have
12 received the B/C/S.
13 MR. JOSSE: Could I just speak to Mr. Krajisnik?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Another way of dealing with it is the
15 following: That we admit it into evidence but that the Defence is
16 entitled to come back and ask us to reconsider that decision if the B/C/S
17 version would cause us any problems.
18 MR. JOSSE: One moment.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's my suggestion, but please.
20 [Defence counsel confers with accused]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.
22 MR. JOSSE: Well, I was aware of Mr. Krajisnik's concern. In
23 fact, I briefly aired it yesterday. And I think Mr. Tieger dealt with it.
24 Mr. Krajisnik is anxious to see the whole of the video. I think
25 Mr. Tieger said that such extracts that the Prosecution have were shown to
1 the Chamber in its entirety. If that is right, then there is clearly
2 nothing we can do about it, although I would ask, and perhaps I'll make
3 this inquiry afterwards as well, how it is the Prosecution only have that
4 part of the video and they don't have the rest of it.
5 But so far as the translation is concerned, I wouldn't object to
6 admission now, bearing in mind we have all seen it, and that includes my
7 client, of course.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And even admitting this video clip would not
9 be -- would not obstruct in any way a further request for admitting --
10 admission into evidence of any other part of that same video, because from
11 what I -- I think the important part was that I think Mr. Vasic was
12 speaking, and whatever others have told us. The chance that we would have
13 to recall Mr. Vasic for admitting another part of that video seems to be
14 rather limited.
15 MR. JOSSE: With respect, I agree. Perhaps the Prosecution would
16 let me know formally in due course how it is they only have that extract
17 from whatever was filmed.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
19 MR. TIEGER: It's a funny way to phrase it, in one sense. We're
20 more than happy to cooperate to the fullest extent possible. I'm not sure
21 to what extent I'm willing to address how we happen to have something.
22 I will say two things. Number one, that's not an unusual matter,
23 that we would have a videotape portion of a longer event. I don't think
24 there's anything unusual about that. Number two, if we had further
25 extracts from that speech and I am incorrect in my understanding, then of
1 course we'll address that with counsel.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, let's be -- if there is another portion,
3 and to the extent possible and not yet disclosed to the Defence, I think
4 they should have an opportunity to look at it, if they really want to do
5 that. Because if you would not know for certain what's in there, you
6 might not even know whether it is exculpatory, yes or no. And I take it
7 that the Defence is mainly interested in to see whether there's any
8 exculpatory material in the remainder of the video.
9 MR. JOSSE: That's right, Your Honour. And could I say, the
10 Chamber is aware that Mr. Krajisnik doesn't make requests like that unless
11 he's particularly anxious to view the material. He made the request to me
12 yesterday. The matter has been raised again today, and that was his
13 immediate reaction. And in my submission, it's not an unreasonable
14 reaction and I endorse it on his behalf.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm confident that this matter can be arranged out of
16 Court, and if there's any need for the Chamber to further intervene we'll
17 hear from the parties.
18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. There is no dispute and
19 we'll take it up. Thank you.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then is there any objection by the Defence to
21 admission into evidence of documents assigned with exhibit numbers P960 up
22 to and including P964A, including all translations?
23 MR. JOSSE: There is not.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then these documents are admitted into
1 Then I'd like to go through the Defence list. Numbers have been
2 assigned to documents D70 up to and including D72. We cannot give any
3 decision at this moment on the numbers D70 and D72 because we have only
4 B/C/S copies available. We are waiting for the English translation. We
5 could, however, take a decision on D71.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE ORIE: We could give a decision on D71. Is there any --
8 that's the letter from Ambassador Wnendt dated 4th of January, 2005,
9 English translation available. Any objections by the Prosecution?
10 You may remember, Mr. Tieger, this was one of the -- out of the
11 bundle of documents Mr. Vasic was eventually to bring with him.
12 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour. That's why I was over there
13 checking to see which was which. So if I understand it correctly, this
14 was the one document that was referred to directly in Court and shown to
15 the witness and for which there was a translation provided. And on that
16 basis, I have no objection.
17 JUDGE ORIE: English translation was there. We have the letter in
18 two languages.
19 Then the only thing we have to take care of, Mr. Registrar, if you
20 would just give me the copies, because there are different copies of that
21 same letter. As I noted yesterday, I'll choose one now to see which is
22 the one that is in evidence.
23 We have only one copy in B/C/S. That is then the copy which gets
24 number -- I do not know what's the original, what's the translation. I
25 take it the English version is the original. That would then be D71. And
1 I choose the best legible copy of it. And the B/C/S version would then
2 be D71.1.
3 Then we have a lot of documents. If I briefly read what they are,
4 Mr. Registrar, would you please then assign the numbers. The first one is
5 guidelines for work of municipal Crisis Staff, 26th of April, 1992.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D73, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Next one, conclusions for the War Staff of the
8 Autonomous Region of Krajina.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D74, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Next one, decision on taking measures -- the next
11 numbers are provisionally assigned. They are a couple of decisions of
12 which I wonder whether they're not also contained in tab 33 of the
13 Prosecution material. So the parties are invited to see whether these
14 decisions are contained somewhere in the Prosecution material as well,
15 because tab 33, that is, the Prnjavor bundle, is admitted in its entirety.
16 So the first one is decision on taking measures due to a complex
17 political and security situation in the territory of the Prnjavor
18 municipality, 15th of October.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D75, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Provisionally, D75.
21 Decision on provisional confiscation of private hunting weapons.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D76, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then decision on provisional confiscation of
24 belongings, 23rd of June, 1992.
25 THE REGISTRAR: D77.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Orders for police hours, working times of
2 restaurants, et cetera, 18th of August, 1992.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D78, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Decision on organised moving of refugees disloyal to
5 the Republika Srpska authorities, 19th of June.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D79, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Conclusions re: Crisis Staff, promoted to the highest
8 organ authority in the autonomous region in the Krajina, 26th of May,
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D80, Your Honours.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Next, and that's not anymore a part of tab 4 of the
12 Defence, military index of the deputy commander of the unit Wolves, Miro
13 Stirac [phoen].
14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D81, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have a bundle of birth and death
16 certificates. They would be numbered 82, but then sub-numbered A, B, C,
17 et cetera. That's death certificate dated 23rd of 7, 1992. Birth
18 certificate dated the 5th of 9, 9th, 1994. Birth certificate dated the
19 12th of January, 2000. Death certificate dated the 20th of July, 1992,
20 bearing reference number 8281. Death certificate dated the 20th of July,
21 1992. A death certificate, again the 20th of July, 1992, bearing
22 reference number 8283. A similar death certificate, same date, 8284. And
23 a death certificate dated the 29th of 11, 1993.
24 Mr. Registrar, they will receive number?
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D82 from A to H respectively, Your
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For the parties to consult later on the list of
3 the Registry.
4 Next, photographs of Muslim trenches and bunkers in Lisnja,
5 15th of June, 1992.
6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D83, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Judgements against persons or nationalities for
8 illegal possession of weapons and other crimes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D84, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Movement permits throughout years 1992, 1993, and
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D85, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Crisis Staff conclusions for protection of mosques,
14 23rd of June, 1992.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D86, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Minutes of meeting between Muslim organisation
17 Merhamet and UNHCR, I take it, it says UNCHR. Dated the 30th of October,
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D87.
20 JUDGE ORIE: List of persons who attended the sessions of the
21 Municipal Assembly.
22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D88, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There we have again only a B/C/S copy.
24 Since these documents, we cannot take any decisions, but now we
25 have provisionally assigned numbers to them. The parties could review
1 whether to what extent -- I mean, if they're shown to the witness, if he
2 has testified about, they should be in evidence.
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: I did not mention a CD of a funeral, which --
5 MR. JOSSE: I, like the Registrar, had not forgotten about it,
6 Your Honour. That was shown to the Chamber.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. JOSSE: I have to say, I'm not sure that has yet been sent,
9 the translation, because, of course, what I've learnt subsequently is that
10 we have to provide a transcript to the translation service. So we've
11 arranged for that to be done. It will go for translation. The Defence
12 would like it admitted.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It will get -- it will be, since it's so
14 closely related to the death certificates, I suggest to the party that it
15 would be assigned number 82 and then it would be letter?
16 THE REGISTRAR: I, Your Honours. 82I.
17 JUDGE ORIE: 82I. And then the --
18 THE REGISTRAR: The transcript will be 82IA, and the English
19 translation will be 82IA.1.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Final decisions will be taken once we have
21 received the translations.
22 MR. JOSSE: Thank you for your understanding in that regard.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then other matters. I'll raise only a few.
24 I think the Defence announced that it would be in a position to
25 further comment on the Davidovic issue, if I may call it that way, once we
1 had started the case. Mr. Stewart or Mr. Josse. I don't know who is
2 dealing with the matter.
3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, really, obviously internally, we deal
4 with it in particular ways.
5 But Your Honour, once again, I believe what the Defence announced
6 was that it would only be in a position to further comment on the
7 Davidovic issue sometime after we had started the case. I can comment on
8 it to this degree, Your Honour: We are working on it. But there are very
9 distinct limits to the time we have at our disposal to work on it,
10 particularly as far as counsel is concerned. But with suitable
11 delegation, we have been working on it, and I've discussed it again very
12 recently with Mr. Josse, and some progress is being made. However, Your
13 Honour, beyond that, if we are talking about a wholesale examination of
14 this issue and an attempt to fully explore and discuss the concerns
15 expressed by the Prosecution, then I'm afraid that must still lie some
16 little way in the future.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Defence is ordered to give its response by the
19 15th of November and not one day later, of course unless good cause shown.
20 MR. STEWART: Does good cause include other demands on the Defence
21 time, Your Honour?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Good cause is always valid in this courtroom, as you
23 may know by now, Mr. Stewart.
24 The next issue is whether the Defence could give us an indication
25 on whether there would be any reason to doubt that there would not be the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 3rd of November limit as far as experts are concerned.
2 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, there's serious reason to doubt
3 that, for a similar reason to the one I just expressed.
4 Your Honour, we are simply unable to cope with assault demands on
5 our time, including the ones I mentioned the other day, which were
6 expressly brought to the attention of the Trial Chamber when we made our
7 application for extension, some of which still remain unstarted, let alone
8 unfinished. Your Honour, we -- it is most unlikely that we are going to
9 be able to do that by that date, because there are matters which
10 absolutely have to have priority. With the greatest respect, Your Honour,
11 they just do.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Let me say the following: We have been this week in
13 Court time available 16 hours. We've heard two witnesses. I think they
14 were scheduled both for four hours. We used less than 12 hours. And it
15 seems that for next week we only have scheduled -- it's again a short week
16 of only four days -- that we might end up in a similar situation. The
17 Chamber wants to express quite clearly that this is not how we're going to
18 proceed. The Chamber granted some time to the Defence to get their engine
19 on the right temperature and on the right speed. But the Chamber did not
20 have in mind that it would be finally the Defence, or the claim by the
21 Defence, how much time they would need that would be determinative for
22 this trial.
23 The Chamber will spend quite some time tomorrow morning on
24 considering the issue. A few items and our agenda are more close
25 monitoring on how the preparation of the presentation of the Defence case,
1 how it -- what progress is made in that respect. We also think about such
2 measures as ordering the Defence to come up soon with a list of witnesses
3 which gives the Chamber a better impression of what the Defence case will
4 be, so that the Defence will have to make some choices.
5 The Chamber is very concerned about the present situation, and the
6 Chamber will not accept that all time-limits set, and in the argument we
7 heard from the Defence, a lot of attention is paid to what we did not
8 grant, lesser attention is paid to the flexibility the Chamber has shown
9 and the additional time, although, as the Chamber understands, in the view
10 of the Defence, insufficient, has been granted.
11 Let me take the example of the experts. That is a -- I'm not
12 saying it's a simple matter, but it's relatively simple and it's
13 relatively -- it's consuming relatively little time. I'm not saying it
14 doesn't take any time. The Chamber is not willing, as far as such a list
15 of experts is concerned, to say not the 3rd of November, then perhaps the
16 30th of November, if we set a new time-limit, then the 15th of December,
17 if not, the 15th of January. There comes a point where the Chamber may
18 say, if there's no list by that date, then there are no experts. As I
19 said before, the Chamber will take ample time tomorrow to further deal
20 with the matter. The Defence should already prepare to see whether they
21 can fill next week, either through witnesses that are nearby, in whatever
22 way. But the Chamber will give the parties the result of its
23 deliberations of tomorrow in the beginning of next week.
24 We'll adjourn --
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, would Your Honour please, with the
1 greatest respect, would Your Honour please just hear the Defence on one or
2 two aspects?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Well, to be quite honest, Mr. Stewart, the Chamber
4 heard the Defence as far as extension of time is concerned at quite a
5 number of occasions. But if there's anything new you'd like to add at
6 this moment, you'll have an opportunity to do so.
7 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. It is this: I will say, Your
8 Honour, that I personally, and I'm speaking personally now, have every
9 reason to feel misled and up to a point cheated by this institution, and I
10 will make that strong assertion good.
11 When we first came into this case, I was told that it was expected
12 that the trial would -- could be ready to begin at the beginning of
13 December 2003. It is impossible to understand how that could responsibly
14 and conscientiously have been said to me, and I made my assessments of
15 this case based on what I was told then. It is impossible that it could
16 have been ready by that time. I was also told --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart --
18 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, may I interrupt you. This sounds not
20 really new to me, because you have expressed at earlier occasions that, on
21 the basis of what you heard at that time, that you got an impression which
22 turned out to be wrong and that you're blaming those who gave you the
23 information at that time for giving that information. That's not new to
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'll leave that one, then.
1 What is perhaps new is that I was also expressly, because I made
2 express inquiries, I was expressly led to believe that the schedule for
3 the trial would provide at least some regular gap during the progress,
4 because I made it perfectly clear that, as a practicing barrister, I did
5 need to have some such gap. I was assured that would be so. It hasn't
6 happened, which causes tremendous difficulty.
7 Your Honours, bringing the matter right up to date, on that list
8 that I gave to Your Honours, and I'm asking, it's embarrassing to have to
9 do this, but I am asking to have this taken into account, on that list I
10 draw express attention to the fact that I have the responsibility as lead
11 counsel to file an end-of-stage report. I have 120 days from the end of
12 the stage to do that, and I'm up to about 90-something days now since July
13 the 22nd. That is a very time-consuming task. It took a great deal of
14 time in relation to the previous stage, and it has taken and will continue
15 to take considerable time in relation to this stage.
16 Your Honour, my team are all paid up front. I am not. I do
17 wonder whether there is anybody else in this courtroom who has had to
18 accept several months' delay in their pay in relation to this matter.
19 That is part of my management responsibilities to my team and to myself. I
20 have to find time to do it. And I put it forward for this reason, Your
21 Honour, that why would, and I ask rhetorically, why would Your Honours
22 suppose that I would have continually deferred that task unless I had had
23 to? It is absolutely obvious that I could and would only have deferred
24 that task for so long if I had had other, as I have had, other pressing
25 priorities which have constantly prevented me from being able to do it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, Mr. Stewart, Mr. Stewart, I'm going to
2 interrupt you. The matter is new to the extent that it relates to the
3 last couple of months. The matter is not new because it is an aspect of
4 the problem which you have brought to our attention several times. So we
5 do understand that this has not changed for the last couple of months.
6 MR. STEWART: But Your Honours never respond to it. And you
7 haven't responded to what I said the other day, and you didn't respond to
8 what I said before. I constantly raise these matters and Your Honours
9 constantly ignore them and brush them aside, as if they're not part of the
10 real world. You do not show sufficient interest and concern about the
11 position of the Defence. You do not inquiry properly as to what the
12 matters which are actually affecting the Defence, and that has been the
13 position throughout this trial. And the result is that Your Honours
14 constantly impose oppressive and unconscionable burdens with shocking
15 results that we saw during the progress of the last few months of the
16 Prosecution case and with a build-up of undone tasks that this Defence
17 team cannot possibly cope with.
18 And there's a longer list. We are struggling. We have thousands
19 and thousands of pages of transcript. We don't have time to read it. We
20 don't have time to go back. We don't have time to do these things. The
21 dossiers that came one after another in July, it was impossible. Ms.
22 Loukas had no time to look at those. I had no time to look at those.
23 Nobody has time to look at those on the Defence side. And the position
24 gets worse and worse and worse. And Your Honours wonder why we don't do
25 these things, and the answer is because we can't do them. Because you ask
1 us to do too many things too quickly. It's getting worse and worse and
2 worse. It just piles up and piles up and piles up and we cannot cope.
3 And in the awkward and embarrassing areas that I've mentioned this
4 morning, we are also entitled to deal with those. I have to deal with
5 those matters. They are part of my job as lead counsel. They're part of
6 my responsibility all round.
7 You have to give us, with the utmost respect, Your Honour, you
8 have to revert to something nearer or better than we have now. There was
9 a time when the progress of the Defence case was supposed to include one
10 week off every five weeks. That's got lost in the wash. We're
11 relentlessly being pushed along. The last few months of the Prosecution
12 case were an appalling burden on this Defence.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, this sounds very much as a repetition of
14 what we heard before.
15 MR. STEWART: Perhaps Your Honours will listen this time for once
16 so I don't have to keep repeating it.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, the idea of repeating it, and you are
18 blaming the Chamber for not paying attention to it and not responding to
20 MR. STEWART: That is my submission, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's your submission. I'll say a few words about
22 that before we adjourn.
23 The Chamber, of course, has spent a lot of time on deliberations
24 on what is fair and what would not be fair to the Defence. The Chamber
25 has deliberately decided, as you may have seen in our earlier decisions,
1 that we work on the basis of an assessment of what is needed to prepare
2 this Defence. We will not, and if that's your expectation, then perhaps
3 you could consider to leave it behind you, we will not review the way the
4 Defence team spends time on administrative matters, experts, et cetera. I
5 think you would not even want us to do that.
6 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we do in fact wish you to listen. We
7 do not wish the Trial Chamber to be troubled with trespassing on
8 unnecessary and troublesome detail, but yes, we do wish the Trial Chamber
9 clearly to understand demands on our time.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I prefer if you would not --
11 MR. STEWART: Yes. I apologise --
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- interrupt me.
13 MR. STEWART: -- Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Listening is something different from giving our
15 judgement on that it is fair to spend now three and a half days on
16 administrative matters because it would be unfair for person X not to
17 receive money and person Y could wait for a couple of days, and that is to
18 be -- should be a priority to experts or whether experts would be a
19 priority to the preparation of proofing of witnesses.
20 We are carefully listening, and as I said before, you spend a lot
21 of attention to where we did not grant it, we did not grant what you asked
22 for. It's not the case that we never grant or that we do not partially
23 grant what you ask for. But finally, the fact that the Chamber does not
24 allow the Defence the time it asks for, even that the Chamber, as I
25 understand, in the Defence's view, does not allow the Defence the time, it
1 doesn't ask for, but would be absolutely minimal to even present a shade
2 of a defence - that's how we understand the position of the Defence - does
3 not mean that we are not listening. The Chamber has its own
4 responsibility in judging, in determining what is needed for the
5 preparation of the defence.
6 We'll further consider the matter, as I said, tomorrow morning --
7 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I inquire something?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, just questioning what is precisely the
10 purpose and the point of the meeting that Your Honours referred to
11 tomorrow. I'm sorry?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. STEWART: If Your Honours are not wishing to receive any
14 information from the Defence as to the demands upon our time.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think that I gave you an opportunity to add
16 whatever you wanted to add to what has been said before. I noticed that
17 most of what you said was not new, or only relatively new to us. We'll
18 meet tomorrow and we'll see what --
19 MR. STEWART: The Judges are going to meet or are all of us to
20 meet, Your Honour? That's what I'm not clear about.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: About the meeting of tomorrow, it will be a meeting
23 of the Judges. It was just to indicate that we'll come up with further
24 rulings, guidance, whatever assistance of the Chamber on practical matters
25 in the beginning of next week and that we will pay proper attention to it
2 MR. STEWART: But, Your Honour, can I say, for example, I didn't
3 come down today equipped to deal with this matter, not fully. Your
4 Honours say that we've been having -- we have had an opportunity of
5 adding. I came down for a completely different purpose.
6 But, Your Honour, this Defence is working. I've actually been
7 working since 5.15 this morning trying to sort out some of these very
8 difficult financial issues in relation to resources, which are also
9 included in my responsibilities. We are not just sitting around not doing
11 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Stewart. Mr. Stewart, the Chamber does not
12 say that you're just sitting around. The Chamber says not whether you
13 have to get up at 4.00 in the morning or 8.00 or 10.00. The Chamber finds
14 on its experience in the case, on what has been done in the experience of
15 the Judges of this Chamber, what it takes to prepare. We have to assess
16 what is fair and we should give the Defence the time we consider to be
17 fair. And the mere fact, and it comes -- it seems that it comes down to
18 that more and more, the mere fact that you consider the time not
19 sufficient and that the Chamber considers a certain amount of time
20 sufficient, that fact, as such, could not automatically lead to following
21 the suggestions of the Defence rather than meeting our responsibilities as
22 a Chamber, responsibilities both towards this institution and the
23 international community and, I would say, in the first place, our
24 responsibilities in granting a fair trial to Mr. Krajisnik.
25 If you say, "We can't do it within the time allotted by the
1 Chamber," you might have to consider whether to adopt other procedures, to
2 prioritise in a different way, exactly the field in which the Chamber is
3 not going to tell the Defence what to do. The Chamber is not going to
4 tell you that instead of getting up at 5.15 this morning, you should have
5 got up at 4.15. That's not for the Chamber. The Defence, in the time
6 assessed by the Chamber to be fair time for the preparation of the defence
7 case, will have to do it within that time.
8 MR. STEWART: Maybe one day the Chamber will tell me I should have
9 got up at 6.15.
10 Your Honour, we wouldn't make such an absurd submission as to say
11 that the mere fact that we consider there's not sufficient time,
12 et cetera, et cetera, to lead to those results.
13 What we do say is this, Your Honour: Your Honours have indicated,
14 and of course you have experience and so on, Your Honours have indicated
15 you will form an assessment. What the Defence is suggesting is that the
16 assessment would be better reached if the Trial Chamber receives and waits
17 for some facts from the Defence. And we expressed concern, for example,
18 there was a good illustration of how a conclusion can be leapt to which is
19 wrong, in the reference made in Your Honour's recent decision on
20 self-representation to resources, which Your Honour's view of that term
21 was in fact quite misconceived. And if you had consulted and had
22 submissions on that, it would have been plain. But the trouble is that
23 when Your Honours produce these matters without telling the Defence what
24 the parameters are, what the concerns are, what assumptions you are
25 making, without giving us a chance to answer it, there is a heavy risk it
1 will lead to an unfair result. We are happy, Your Honour, simply to have
2 the opportunity to explain to the Trial Chamber why we say we don't have
3 enough time. In the end, it's -- of course, it's the Trial Chamber's
4 decision. No assertion on the Defence part carries the day. It's up to
5 the Trial Chamber. But facts are facts, and where they are available to
6 either replace or improve or supplement Your Honour's assumptions and
7 assessments, then, with the utmost respect, they should be sought and they
8 should be considered. And there are facts, and not all the facts are
9 before the Trial Chamber, and I didn't know I was going to have to deal
10 with this issue today. I was in fact waiting, as Your Honour promised me.
11 You said you would go away and consider the point which I raised earlier
12 this week and I had given Your Honours, with respect, time to do exactly
13 that and was awaiting Your Honour's response to that.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, if there are any facts which are
15 relatively simple to write down or to understand, the Chamber will include
16 them in its deliberations tomorrow morning. If we do not receive
17 anything , and this is because you are so specifically asking for it, if
18 we do not receive anything, we'll -- part of our deliberations will also
19 be whether we'll give you another opportunity to present any further
20 information. But I think it would be more efficient that if there are --
21 of course, if you want to write down a whole analysis of the way the
22 Defence used its time until now, then of course the time would not be
23 sufficient. But if, by way of example, if you would say the Chamber
24 certainly is not aware of the fact that the whole of the support staff
25 suffered a three-week flu attack which has really changed the situation
1 dramatically, of course we would like to be informed about these kind of
2 matters and then a short message would do for the time being.
3 We are at a time where we have to adjourn. We adjourn until next
4 Monday, a quarter past 2.00, in Courtroom I.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 31st day of
7 October, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.