1 Tuesday, 1 November 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
7 number IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Registrar.
9 Mr. Harmon, are you ready to continue the cross-examination of
10 the witness, Mr. Stavnjak?
11 MR. HARMON: I am, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Usher, you're invited to escort Mr.
13 Stavnjak into the courtroom.
14 I use the time available at this moment. We started five
15 minutes late, I do understand, for technical reasons. Now and then, both
16 on the part of the Court and on the part of the parties, it happens that we
17 have a late start, where it's not technical reasons, but late arrival, to
18 say it this way. In view of the time restraints we have, the Chamber would
19 very much like to improve its own and everyone else's discipline in this
20 courtroom to start in due time.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stavnjak, that was not for you, as you will
23 understand. Mr. Stavnjak, I'd like to remind you that you gave yesterday a
24 solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and
25 nothing but the truth, and that you're still - I would say it goes without
1 saying - bound by that solemn declaration.
2 Mr. Harmon, please proceed.
3 WITNESS: LAZAR STAVNJAK [Resumed]
4 [Witness answered through interpreter]
5 Cross-examined by Mr. Harmon: [Continued]
6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Stavnjak.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, yesterday you told us you went to Cajnice. In 2001
9 and 2002, you were Dusko Kornjaca's deputy, were you not?
10 A. Yes, I was.
11 Q. And what was the position of Mr. Kornjaca in 2001 and 2002?
12 A. In the period of time -- well, in the year 2000, after the local
13 elections, which took place on the 6th of April, 2000, he was appointed as
14 the mayor of the Municipality of Cajnice, and I was his deputy.
15 Q. You mentioned yesterday that you had served in the VRS up until
16 the Dayton Peace Accords. What was the unit in which you served?
17 A. I worked in a unit which belonged to the Municipality of Cajnice.
18 Q. What was the number or designation of that unit?
19 A. I can't remember exactly. We used to call it the Cajnice
21 Q. I understood your examination yesterday, your evidence, that you
22 were an infantryman. Is that correct?
23 A. It is.
24 Q. Did you participate in combat operations?
25 A. Of course.
1 Q. Did you participate in combat operations against the enclave of
3 A. Yes. For the most part, it was the demarcation line which was
4 set up later on, after the withdrawal of the Serb population from the
5 Municipality of Gorazde. So there was this demarcation line and that's
6 where it was.
7 Q. What was the corps with which your unit was associated? Was it
8 the Drina Corps or the Herzegovina Corps, or was it some other corps?
9 A. Believe me, I can't remember exactly, but, well, I was there for
10 three or three and a half years. And things changed on a number of
11 occasions between the Herzegovina and Drina Corps. But I can't remember
12 exactly. I think that most of the time we were within the Herzegovina
14 Q. Did you participate in any military actions against the enclave
15 of Zepa or the enclave of Srebrenica?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Let me turn to a different topic, Mr. Stavnjak. Do you know a
18 man by the name of Vojislav Krunic?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. Mr. Krunic was a member of the SDS Executive Board in 1991 and
21 1992, wasn't he?
22 A. Mr. Vojislav Krunic wasn't a member for as long as I was within
23 the leadership, or for as long as I was working for the authorities of the
24 Municipality of Gorazde.
25 Q. Perhaps I framed the question improperly. Mr. Krunic was a
1 member of the SDS Executive Board at the higher level, not at the municipal
2 level, but at the level at the centre, wasn't he?
3 A. As far as I know, no.
4 Q. Did you have contacts with Mr. Krunic in 1991 and 1992?
5 A. I had contacts with Mr. Krunic in 1990 and up until the first
6 half of 1991, for as long as I was within the leadership of the SDS party
7 at Gorazde.
9 Q. Mr. Krunic was a member of the SDS, was he not?
10 A. No. It's not quite correct, because I kept all the records and I
11 don't recall him ever joining the party, ever signing the papers to that
13 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, we have presented evidence from Mr.
14 Treanor indicating that Mr. Krunic was a member of the SDS Executive Board
15 from 1991 to 1992. I can give Your Honours the citation on that. And we
16 also have his attendance records at the SDS Executive Board. So I will
17 provide that to the Chamber.
18 Q. Let's talk about another individual, Mr. Stavnjak, Hadzo Efendic,
19 the man who you described in your testimony yesterday as a tough cookie in
20 his negotiations. Is this the same Mr. Efendic who was appointed the first
21 vice-president or the deputy Prime Minister of the Bosnia-Herzegovina
22 government in February of 1993?
23 A. I don't know whether he had that position, deputy prime minister,
24 as you call it, because at that time I was involved in other issues and I
25 was not engaged in politics in any way.
1 Q. Let me ask you - you may not know the answer to this - but in
2 October of 1993 Mr. Efendic was appointed the ambassador to Austria. Do
3 you have any reason to dispute that?
4 A. I really am not familiar with this information. My children were
5 at Miljen and the demarcation line between the Muslim forces and the Serb
6 forces was very close and I was involved in these matters which helped me
7 protect my own life and the lives of my children.
8 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, again with leave of the Court, I can
9 present official documents from the Gazette establishing those two
10 appointments, and if the Court -- if it's disputed, otherwise, if counsel -
11 - and I can talk about it during the recess and perhaps I can show those
12 documents to counsel and he can enter into a stipulation if he's so
14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we certainly consider that the
15 witness doesn't seem to have expressed a view one way or the other.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The witness does not contradict it, but of course
17 the mere fact that the witness doesn't know about something doesn't mean
18 that it's therefore true. So I do understand Mr. Harmon would like to
19 present to you documents to see whether you can make any stipulation as to
20 Mr. Efendic being appointed as deputy prime minister of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
21 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. I was offering to be
22 helpful. I was just suggesting really on points like this, I'm very open
23 to Mr. Harmon putting them in front of me. But then they seem immediately,
24 when a witness has got nothing to say, they seem immediately to have
25 nothing to do with that witness, and outside Court no doubt we can consider
1 such points.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear from you.
3 MR. HARMON:
4 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, let's turn to the topic that we discussed
5 yesterday, and that was the post-multi-party election discussions between
6 the SDS and the SDA for positions of power in the Municipality of Gorazde.
7 First off, in those multi-party elections, the SDS won 13 of 50 seats in
8 those elections; isn't that correct?
9 A. I think, approximately, yes. I can't confirm whether it was
10 exactly 13, but you might be right.
11 Q. And the SDA won 29 out of 50 seats. Do you have any reason to
12 dispute that fact, Mr. Stavnjak?
13 A. I think that must be, more or less, correct.
14 Q. In your evidence yesterday, Mr. Stavnjak - I'm referring to the
15 transcript at page 71 - you concluded your evidence, direct examination, by
16 saying the following. I'm starting at line 4:
17 "This fits in, so to say, with what I said in the beginning of
18 the afternoon, that is to say, that those talks with Mr. Efendic were very
19 difficult and tiresome, and that there was no agreement in the end. So
20 those people who followed in my and Mr. Begovic's footsteps in the SDS in
21 Gorazde were unable to reach any agreement at all, and that's why this
22 tragic conflict broke out. Of course, I would like to say that Mr.
23 Efendic, or rather, the SDA in Gorazde, bears most responsibility for this
24 tragic conflict, because the responsibility is always in the hands of those
25 who have absolute power. And at that time, it was the SDA which had
1 absolute power in Gorazde, so they had to show some tolerance, and I think
2 they are really to blame to quite a considerable extent."
3 You blame the SDA for the failure of the negotiations to divide
4 power in the Municipality of Gorazde; isn't that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The fact is that the key reason why the SDA didn't give the SDS a
7 single seat or a single position in the municipal power was because the SDS
8 failed to join the Gorazde Municipal Assembly; is that correct?
9 A. It is correct. It is correct that Serb councilors did not
10 participate in the first assembly precisely because no agreement had been
11 reached previously in multi-party talks.
12 Q. But the reason they didn't get any positions was because they
13 didn't participate in the Municipal Assembly; isn't that correct?
14 A. Yes, but when you set up the executive authority at the local
15 level, everything needs to be put down on paper, the entire procedure, or
16 at least a part of it, depending on how the parties agree. And then you
17 have to sign it, and then you can go ahead and have the first assembly
19 MR. HARMON: Could we distribute the next exhibit?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Does it need a number, Mr. Harmon?
21 MR. HARMON: It does, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Would you tell us what it is.
23 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. This is a letter to President
24 Karadzic, dated the 25th of May, 1991.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And Mr. Registrar, that would have which number?
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be, Your Honours, P966.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.
3 MR. HARMON:
4 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, you have in front of you the Bosnian version of
5 P966. This is, as I say, a letter to President Karadzic, president of the
6 Serb Democratic Party. And if you turn to the last page in the B/C/S
7 version, you'll see 14 signatures. If I can direct your attention, Mr.
8 Stavnjak, to a line that says: "Lazar Stavnjak" and has a signature. Is
9 that your signature?
10 A. It is.
11 Q. Now, this is a document -- I want to read part of this document.
12 You're familiar with it, Mr. Stavnjak, because you were one of the authors
13 of this document. I want to read a portion of this document to you.
14 MR. HARMON: And I'm referring, Your Honour, to the second
15 paragraph on page 2 of the English translation.
16 Q. Second sentence I start. It says: "Our failure to join the
17 Assembly is the key reason why to this day the SDA has not given us a
18 single position in municipal power. Dr. Mojovic and a group of like-minded
19 people are the sole culprits for our boardsmen failing to enter the
20 Assembly and for failing to reach an agreement with the SDA."
21 The reason why you didn't achieve positions in the government was
22 because you weren't cooperating in the Municipal Assembly; isn't that
23 correct, Mr. Stavnjak?
24 A. Yes, but the key phrase is the one that you've just read out,
25 that is to say, the basic problem was that Mr. Efendic wanted us to attend
1 the first assembly. That was the whole point. And talks were meant to
2 take place afterwards, on the power-sharing.
3 Q. Did you ever join the Municipal Assembly of Gorazde?
4 A. Very soon after this date, the date of this document, I left the
5 actual leadership of the SDS in Gorazde, and Mr. Begovic and Mr. Kosoricas
6 as well. New people came along and they were involved in these talks, and
7 what happened afterwards, I think we all know.
8 Q. Did the Serbs ever join the Gorazde Municipal Assembly, either
9 before you left or after you left?
10 A. Members of the SDS never joined the work of the Assembly in
12 Q. Let me turn your attention to the second paragraph, and I want to
13 ask you a question about a portion of that paragraph. I'm referring to the
14 second -- I'm going to start in the second sentence of that document,
15 second paragraph. Actually, I'll start at the beginning.
16 "As you are probably already familiar with the situation inside
17 the Municipal Board in Gorazde, we would try to describe the chronological
18 order that what led to such a situation, because we feel that we need to
19 inspect the causes that led to such a situation rather than deal with its
20 consequences. In our opinion, it started with the meeting and consultation
21 held in Koran about the distribution of power in the municipalities."
22 Now, what was the problem at Koran that you're referring to in
23 this letter?
24 A. It was the basic issue. Some members of the party considered
25 that it was necessary for us to get a certain amount of power, and people
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 had different opinions as to what positions they should get. People's
2 views differ, but we had to reach some kind of agreement.
3 Q. So while there may have been some disagreements, can you explain
4 to me what the problems were at Koran, what were the differences of
5 opinion, then, that are referred to emanating from the meeting that was
6 held at the Koran?
7 A. Perhaps that was the key issue, in fact. Some people considered
8 that it would be a good idea to attend the Assembly without any agreement,
9 whereas others tended to think that we had to reach some kind of agreement
10 beforehand in order to give a kind of legitimacy to the Assembly. And if
11 we attended the Assembly, by virtue of that very fact, we would be giving
12 it legitimacy. So that was the disagreement. Do we give this legitimacy
13 to the Assembly without any agreement or not?
14 Q. Which camp did you fall into, Mr. Stavnjak?
15 A. We can't really talk about camps, just differences of opinion
16 within the executive -- or rather, the municipal committee. But I think my
17 actions afterwards showed that I was rather wise in what I did. More-
18 educated people, I'm not going to say whether they were more intelligent or
19 not, but more-educated people followed me in my position.
20 Q. Which position did you adopt? Were you in favour of joining the
21 municipality without an agreement or were you in favour of not joining the
22 municipality until there was an agreement on power?
23 A. Well, I had my own opinion. I thought that it would be better to
24 attend the Assembly.
25 Q. Okay. Now, let me turn to the next sentence following the one I
1 just read, and I want to ask your comments on this:
2 "Stanoje Begovic, the President of the Gorazde Municipal Board,
3 and Lazar Stavnjak, the Secretary of the Municipal Board, were said to be
4 present at the meeting. In the absence of the president and the secretary,
5 Dr. Mladen Mojovic, the vice-president of the Municipal Board, selected and
6 held a meeting of the Municipal Board on 8 December 1990, at which he
7 criticised distinguished Serb," and then it's illegible, "and determined
8 three additional negotiators with the SDA, Dusko Tos, Slobodan Gojkovic,
9 and Blazo Ignjatovic, even though up to that point it was Begovic, Mojovic,
10 and Stankovic [sic] who were supposed to negotiate with the SDA?
11 JUDGE ORIE: I take it you were to say Stavnjak.
12 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry. Stavnjak, if I miss pronounced that.
13 Q. Can you comment on that paragraph?
14 A. Yes. That negotiating team was extended afterwards with the
15 addition of the last three names that you mentioned.
16 Q. There was considerable dissent within the SDS, was there not?
17 Didn't it eventually result in a coup within the SDS?
18 A. No. No, certainly not. There were just differences of opinion,
19 and that was normal for those times. I mean, we were not used to a multi-
20 party system, so we were beginners, all of us.
21 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, on page 2, it's 2 of the English, Your Honour.
22 It's the fourth paragraph down, there's a portion of this letter that reads
23 as follows:
24 "It was around that time that the aforementioned group started
25 with the first false accusations of certain members of the Municipal Board,
1 claiming they were spies, Milos Carapic, Ranko Andric. These false
2 accusations spread to Stanko Stojanovic, Ostas Kosoric and the secretary,
3 Lazar Stavnjak. After this, they started calling and holding municipal
4 meetings without the knowledge of the party president and secretary. This
5 meant that a coup had been struck in the Municipal Board of the SDS in
7 Now, these are your words to President Karadzic. So I asked you
8 earlier, Mr. Stavnjak, wasn't there a coup within the SDS? And your answer
9 was "no." So let me repeat the question. Wasn't there a coup in the SDS?
10 A. No. No. Certainly you can call it that. We dealt with it
11 through our agreement. If the president of the Municipal Board and the
12 secretary of the Municipal Board withdrew voluntarily and they were
13 replaced by other people, then you can't call this a coup.
14 Q. Why did you call it a coup to President Karadzic, then?
15 A. I apologise. I cannot say whether there is a word of that sort
16 in the text, a coup. I'm familiar with this document, but I don't see the
17 word "coup" anywhere.
18 JUDGE ORIE: As soon as there's an interpretation issue, which
19 seems to be the case, I'd like to have it clarified through our
20 interpreters. May I ask the attention of the interpreters, the second page
21 of the B/C/S version, which -- the paragraph which seems to start with the
22 words "u to vreme" that paragraph. Whether at the end of that paragraph,
23 the last sentence, which is translated into English "this meant that a coup
24 had been struck in the Municipal Board of the SDS in Gorazde," whether,
25 especially in view of the translation "coup," whether there would be any
1 comment from the interpreters.
2 THE INTERPRETER: If you can just give us a minute. We're
3 waiting for the document.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You hadn't received it. Yes, then I apologise.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, the B/C/S booth has found this
6 portion of the text, and indeed the word is putsch, or coup, literal
7 translation. Thank you very much.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The last word on the semi-last line in that
9 paragraph, where it reads "putsch," is that the word we're talking about?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour.
11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I say, far be it for us to
12 disagree, but we do agree. Mr. Sladojevic, the Defence acknowledges that
13 that word is aptly translated in that way.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Mr. Stavnjak, now everyone seems to
15 agree, Prosecution, Defence, interpreters, that the word used in the text
16 is "putsch," which seems to be the word as we know it in the German
17 language as well, which stands for a coup. Does this change your mind that
18 such a word is used in this letter?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't agree with that. It all
20 depends on the translation. I still have not found the word "putsch" in
21 this text.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Page 2.
23 THE WITNESS: Very well.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Third paragraph, starting with "u to vreme" at the
25 semi-last line, I apologise for my pronunciation. That's where the word
1 "putsch" seems to appear. Have you found it?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, but the letter C here is
3 almost illegible. That's why I wouldn't find the word.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You found it now?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And do you agree that means coup or "putsch"?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what you can see in the
8 document, but if you read on, you will see that we held another session of
9 the Municipal Board and that we agreed on how to deal with the problem.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand your explanation. But it's
11 now clearly established that there's no interpretation issue involved.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, could I just say, because Your Honour
14 knows I'm trying to do my best. I stood up expressly to say that I agreed
15 and it's appearing in the transcript that I disagreed, and I hope Your
16 Honour would know that I'm just sensitive to make sure that such errors
17 don't creep in. That's page 11, line --
18 JUDGE ORIE: It will be corrected.
19 MR. STEWART: I think Your Honour understands I'd like such
20 things to be clear.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Harmon.
22 MR. HARMON:
23 Q. Finally, Mr. Stavnjak, we're still focusing on -- I now want to
24 focus on the negotiations that took place with Mr. Efendic. In fact, when
25 you say he was a tough negotiator, there were six negotiators from the SDS
1 and only three from the SDA during those negotiations; isn't that correct?
2 A. Yes. Later on, the number was expanded to six.
3 Q. Okay. Let's turn to a different document. We'll distribute this
5 JUDGE ORIE: May I just try to understand your testimony. Was
6 the issue that it if it would come to voting, that you were afraid that all
7 Serbs would be outvoted in the Assembly meeting and that, therefore, you
8 thought it better to have an agreement, or at least you tried to have an
9 agreement before it came to any voting? And is that what you're talking
10 about in this letter later on, where you are -- where it says "non-
11 democratic elections and the result of that"? Is that a proper
12 understanding of your testimony?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you referring to the Municipal
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. In the Municipal Assembly, we
17 could not -- there were 29 out of 50 members of the Assembly from the SDA.
18 They had an absolute majority.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You were afraid that without an agreement you'd go
20 to that Assembly, that you'd get nothing at all, because on every vote
21 there would be a majority of Serbs; is that a correct understanding of the
22 problem you had at that time?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct. That is
24 correct. I believe that Your Honour has just said the key word. If we had
25 joined the Assembly and if we had made it legal, we would still not have
1 received anything in the system of power-sharing in the town, and that is
2 the essence of the whole problem.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.
4 MR. HARMON:
5 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, let me show you the next exhibit. Mr. Stavnjak,
6 you're getting another exhibit.
7 MR. HARMON: This is an exhibit, Your Honour, that has
8 previously been exhibited. It's P43 and P64A.
9 JUDGE ORIE: It's especially this one that got those numbers,
10 because we know that there are many of them. Yes, I see that --
11 MR. HARMON: I'm informed it is, Your Honour. This particular
12 copy has copy number 93 on it.
13 Q. Have you had a chance to review that document, Mr. Stavnjak?
14 A. No, I've never seen this document before.
15 MR. HARMON: This document, for the record, Your Honour, is
16 essentially instructions for the organisation and operation of organs of
17 the Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina in emergency conditions. This
18 is a document that we referred to as Variant A and Variant B.
19 Q. If you could turn, please, Mr. Stavnjak, to the last page of the
20 Bosnian version that is in front of you, the top line, in handwriting. It's
21 in handwriting, Mr. Stavnjak. You should have that. Turn to the last
22 page, in handwriting, Mr. Stavnjak. In handwriting, at the top, it says:
23 "93A." It says "Stojan" and "Gorazde." Do you see that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you know who that is?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. Did you attend the meeting in Sarajevo on the 19th of
3 December, 1991, where these instructions were issued?
4 A. No. No. At that time, I was already the secretary of the
5 Serbian Cultural Society that had been established.
6 Q. Who at your municipality did attend the meeting in Sarajevo on
7 the 19th of December, the Main Board meeting? Do you know?
8 A. I really don't.
9 Q. This document, I just want to take you through this very quickly,
10 Mr. Stavnjak, because I'm going to be asking you some questions in a
11 minute. This document was created and distributed for the purpose of
12 implementing a decision for the Serbian people to live in one state, and it
13 makes a distinction between municipalities where Serbs formed a majority of
14 the population and where they formed a minority of the population. And it
15 outlines certain steps that needed to be taken in order to create parallel
16 institutions in the municipality.
17 Now, you've never heard of this document; is that your testimony?
18 A. No, never.
19 Q. Let me show you another exhibit, then, Mr. Stavnjak.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Does it need a number, Mr. Harmon?
21 MR. HARMON: It does, Your Honour.
22 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm not quite sure whether we're on
23 the same topic. May I simply observe when Mr. Harmon said at line 14 of
24 the previous page, he asked: "Did you attend the meeting in Sarajevo on
25 the19th of December, 1991, where those instructions were issued?" That not
1 being put to the witness or the second element, we know that is the
2 Prosecution's case, but that contains an assumption.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I would agree with you that there seems to be a
4 dispute between the parties, but I took it from the answer of the witness
5 that he did not attend that meeting at all. So what supposedly has
6 happened during that meeting seems then not very relevant for the
8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm not making a major issue of it.
9 If we were going to be continuing with this topic, I felt it best simply to
10 mention that minor point.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear.
12 You may proceed, Mr. Harmon.
13 MR. HARMON: Was there a number on this? I'm sorry.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's where we were. It is number -- yes.
15 The reason I hesitated is that it is a handwritten document, original ERN
16 number 00596545, starting with "1A establish around the clock", we'll get a
17 better description, and at the very end, rosters, at least one roster.
18 Mr. Harmon, if you could give us in three words, but perhaps
19 first ask the witness what this document is, because it's not easy to
20 describe it on the basis of what we have in front of us.
21 MR. HARMON: Yes. These are handwritten notes, Your Honour, that
22 relate to the previous document.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Handwritten note, and you just add the ERN
24 number of the original --
25 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P967, Your Honours.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
2 MR. HARMON:
3 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, these are handwritten notes. You have them in
4 front of you. Do you recognise the handwriting on these notes?
5 A. No. I've never seen this before.
6 Q. Let me direct your attention to the first handwritten item,
7 which, according to the English translation, says: "1. Establish around
8 the clock shifts in all SDS Municipal Boards. B. Secure."
9 If we compare that to Variant B, the previous document, on page 7
10 of the English translation, one will see the words "introduce around the
11 clock duty service in all SDS Municipal Boards and ensure constant
12 communication and cooperation with all local boards on the territory of the
14 Mr. Stavnjak, you left the municipality in April of 1992, as I
15 understood your evidence yesterday. Did the SDS introduce around the clock
16 duty service in all SDS duty boards while you were still in the
17 Municipality of Gorazde?
18 A. Could you please repeat your question.
19 Q. While you were in the Gorazde municipality, you left in April of
20 1992, did the SDS establish around-the-clock duty service in the SDS
21 Municipal Boards?
22 A. Not as far as I know, because I did not participate in the work
23 of it.
24 Q. Okay. Let's turn to the second item of this handwritten note.
25 It says: "Sessions of SEC -- of SDS Municipal Board every day at 1700
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I've got SDS instead of SEC -- oh, you
3 corrected it yourself.
4 MR. HARMON: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. HARMON:
7 Q. Now, if we turn to --
8 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, I direct Your Honours' attention to
9 Variant B, number 2, which says: "Ensure conditions for daily meetings of
10 the SDS Municipal Board secretariat to allow constant monitoring and
11 assessment of the situation on the ground and the taking of necessary
13 Q. My question to you, Mr. Stavnjak: Did the SDS Municipal Board,
14 after the 19th of December, 1991, have meetings every day?
15 A. I really wouldn't know, and I can't answer your question. You
16 have to understand that I was not a member of the inner leadership. I did
17 not attend the meetings. I was a member of the cultural society. That's
18 what I've already stated.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, may I just ask you one question before
20 we continue?
21 MR. HARMON: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You present P967.1 as one document, and from your
23 questioning, you seem to relate that to the 19th of December, 1991
24 instructions. At the same time, the roster, at the very end, seems to
25 concentrate on October 1991. So that would even be before.
1 MR. HARMON: These aren't necessarily in order, Your Honour,
2 these documents. When these documents were collected, I'm not sure what
3 order they were put in, but they were --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, I'm asking you. You say you
5 present them as one document, and therefore, I think you well understood my
7 MR. HARMON: I did understand your question, and I'm going to be
8 referring to certain parts of this document.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, tying in with Your Honour's
11 observation, it might be appropriate if Mr. Harmon were to make it clearer
12 to the witness exactly what he says this document this is. Because the
13 witness said he'd never seen it and it hasn't really been indicated to him
14 what the Prosecution suggests it is.
15 MR. HARMON: I suggested, Your Honour, these are handwritten
16 documents. I can tell Your Honours these were documents that were seized
17 in Gorazde and provided to us by the authorities -- by the Bosnian
18 government authorities. And that's why I'd like to go through this
19 document with this witness, and perhaps he can illuminate what's in it for
21 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I'm not -- that's not really
22 quite good enough, with respect. If the Prosecution are going to -- if
23 they're going to use this document in the cross-examination to the witness,
24 they ought to go as far as they can in making it clear what they say. The
25 various bits - and Your Honour quite correctly points out, it's apparently
1 not a single document - what they say the bits of the document actually
3 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, it's clear from the examination the
4 bits of the document relate to Variant A and Variant B, and that's what
5 we're asserting and putting to this witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand -- let me try and cut this short.
7 Do I understand, Mr. Harmon, that the Prosecution considers this to be
8 handwritten notes which it considers to be created as a result of the 19th
9 of December instructions?
10 MR. HARMON: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Not knowing, perhaps yet, who drafted it,
12 perhaps you do know, but until now we haven't heard anything about that.
13 Then, Mr. Stewart, where I first pointed at a roster which seems to relate
14 to October 1991, I also see in the handwritten notes, which seem to be in a
15 different handwriting, or at least not in the same -- not -- yes, seems to
16 be in a different handwriting, that it refers to a first meeting to be held
17 on the 26th of December, 1991. Therefore, it seems that these documents
18 might not really belong together. At least, I note at this moment that two
19 different time frames seem to be reflected.
20 MR. HARMON: That's correct, Your Honour. That's correct. And I
21 will get to that, Your Honour. I will address that, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Let's proceed.
23 MR. HARMON:
24 Q. So you said that you were in the cultural society. My question,
25 then, is: Did you hear about daily meetings of the SDS Municipal Board,
1 even though you weren't a member? Did you hear about daily members of the
2 SDS Municipal Board while you remained in the Municipality of Gorazde?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Let's turn to number 3 of this handwritten document. It says:
5 "Crisis Staff." And it has a list of names, starting with Milosova Herin,
6 President Dusko Tosic, and it goes down through, it appears to be, the name
7 of Slavica Gavrilovic [phoen].
8 Now, are you aware that the SDS did create a Crisis Staff in the
9 Municipality of Gorazde in late 1991 and early 1992?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you recognise the names that are on this list in front of you
12 as being people who were members of the SDS in the Municipality of Gorazde?
13 A. Yes. I know most of these people.
14 Q. Do you know if any of these people were in positions of
15 responsibility and leadership within the municipal SDS party?
16 A. You mean in Gorazde?
17 Q. That's correct.
18 A. Mrs. Herin was President of the Municipal Board. Mr. Bosko
19 Sekaric [phoen] was in my position. He replaced me in the position of the
20 Secretary of the Municipal Board. Mladen Mojovic was Vice-President.
21 Q. Okay. We can't go beyond that evidence that you have -- you
22 weren't aware of any crisis staff in the municipality.
23 Let me turn to the fourth item in this handwritten note, and
24 the fourth item says: "Call and proclaim the Assembly of the Serbian
25 People." That's sub-part A. And sub-part B says: "The Assembly consists
1 of members of Serbian nationality at the Assembly and presidents of the
2 Municipal Boards." And then it lists Slavomir Gavrilovic, coordinator of
3 the SDA, it says, and others. And then it lists board members and it lists
4 29 people.
5 Now, who are those people?
6 A. I really have not seen this document before. Your Honours, if
7 you will allow me to say that this text does not bear any stamp, and it is
8 in the Latin script. And I know that as from the 1990, when I was a member
9 of the local leadership in Gorazde, we used the Cyrillic script, and we
10 always wrote in the Cyrillic. I've seen some of the documents that they
11 were done in the Cyrillic, and as for this document, which is in the Latin
12 script, I really don't know what to say. I couldn't comment upon it.
13 Q. Are the people who are listed, Mr. Stavnjak, from 1 to 29, were
14 those members of the Serbian Assembly?
15 A. Yes. Some of them are members of the Assembly, because the SDS
16 had 13 members, as you have said it yourself. And I believe that all of
17 their names are here.
18 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, I invite Your Honours to compare this
19 item number 4 with item number 4 in the Variant A and Variant B document
20 that we provided previously.
21 Q. And when was the first Assembly, Serbian Assembly, convened, Mr.
22 Stavnjak? Was it convened on December 26th, 1991?
23 A. I really wouldn't know. I'm not aware of that.
24 Q. You were still a member of the SDS in December of 1991, or were
25 you in the cultural association?
1 A. I was a member of the SDS throughout all that time. I'm still a
2 member, for that matter. And the Serbian Cultural Society was established
3 towards the end of 1991. I can't give you the exact date, but I'm sure
4 that I was not a member of the Municipal Board. I was a member of the SDS.
5 I was then, and I still am.
6 Q. I'd like to turn your attention to item number 8. There is a
7 list of four people in item number 8. One of them is Mr. Arsic. Do you
8 see that name in front of you, Arsic? Who is Mr. Arsic?
9 A. Yes. Again, this is in the Latin script. I know Mr. Arsic
10 personally. If that's the man we're referring to, because I can only see
11 his family name here.
12 Q. Was Mr. Arsic the commander of the Territorial Defence?
13 A. It says Arsic here, but there's no first name. I used to know --
14 Q. Was there a man named Arsic who was involved with the Territorial
16 A. Not to my knowledge.
17 Q. We'll come back to that.
18 Number 9 on this document, Mr. Stavnjak, it says: "Inform the
19 Serbian people not to travel," and then it has the initials "GO." Now, was
20 there ever --
21 MR. HARMON: And I turn Your Honours' attention to number 9 in
22 the previous document, that reads "advise the Serbian staff they must not
23 go on annual leave, travel abroad or leave their permanent residence in the
24 coming period."
25 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, were you aware that, at any point in time while you
1 were in the Municipality of Gorazde, that the Serbian staff was advised not
2 to go on annual leave, not to travel, not to go abroad, not to leave their
3 place of residence?
4 A. No. No.
5 Q. So it is your testimony, finally, that you can't assist us with
6 this document, you can't assist us with when the Serb Assembly convened?
7 A. I really don't know when it was.
8 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, in late 1991 and early 1992, before the conflict
9 broke out in Gorazde, were the Serbs arming themselves?
10 A. Not to my knowledge.
11 Q. Were the Serbs getting arms from the JNA?
12 A. Not to my knowledge.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, just for my information, you told the
14 Chamber that these documents were seized in Gorazde and provided by the
15 Bosnian government authorities. Would you have any more detail about where
16 in Gorazde they were found?
17 MR. HARMON: I will make that inquiry, Your Honour. I can tell
18 Your Honours as well where the other document was seized, the previous
19 document, if Your Honours are interested, Variant A and Variant B.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. HARMON: The Variant A and Variant B document, Your Honour,
22 was seized in the Holiday Inn, in the Boksit office, and it was provided to
23 us along with other documents that were seized from the Holiday Inn.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Holiday Inn in Sarajevo?
25 MR. HARMON: Sarajevo, that's correct.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, do these documents need an exhibit
3 MR. HARMON: They do not, Your Honour. I can tell you, the first
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 MR. HARMON: They do not, Your Honour. The first document that
7 I'm going to be referring to is an analysis of combat readiness and
8 activities of the Army of Republika Srpska in 1992. It's previously been
9 exhibited as P64A, P529, binder 6, tab 255. And I have taken excerpts out
10 of this. I'd like to present this to -- certain quotes to this witness.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. HARMON:
13 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, this first document that you have in front of you
14 is a document that is a document that was prepared by the army of the
15 Republika Srpska. It is a military secret and it was prepared in April of
16 1993, and it reflects back on the status of the army in 1992. And I want
17 to read a portion of this document to you and ask you some questions about
19 Under -- on page 14 -- actually, starting at page 13, there's a
20 reference to units of the infantry. On page 14 of the English, second
21 paragraph, this says, and I quote: "The infantry units formed are equipped
22 with weapons received from the former JNA which were distributed by
23 officers, members of the Serbian Democratic Party, or other representatives
24 of the Serbian people."
25 Can you comment on that, Mr. Stavnjak?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, have you found it, Mr. Stavnjak? Have
2 you found the portion just read? You find it at the page 13, at the
3 bottom, going -- no. It starts even on the top of page 14.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I've found it.
5 MR. HARMON:
6 Q. I'll repeat what I read, Mr. Stavnjak, to assist you: "The
7 infantry units formed are equipped with weapons received from the former
8 JNA which were distributed by officers, members of the Serbian Democratic
9 Party, or other representatives of the Serbian people."
10 Do you know about that, Mr. Stavnjak?
11 A. I've never seen this document before, so I'm really unable to
12 comment on it. I've only just set eyes on it.
13 Q. I'm not asking you to comment on the document. I'm asking you to
14 comment on the events described in the document. And the events described
15 in the document are that the SDS was helping to distribute weapons to
16 representatives of the Serbian people. Do you know anything about that,
17 Mr. Stavnjak?
18 A. No, I don't know anything about it.
19 Q. Let me quote to you another passage, Mr. Stavnjak.
20 MR. HARMON: This, Your Honour, is a quotation from General
21 Gvero, and it is from the 34th Assembly Session of the Assembly that was
22 held on the 29th of September, 1993. The quotation I'm going to be
23 referring to is found in exhibit P64A, P65, Treanor, binder 16, tab 221.
24 Q. And let me quote General Gvero, Mr. Stavnjak: "The Serb
25 Democratic Party has politically aroused and united the Serb nation. It
1 has formulated their political and social goals and organised all the
2 preconditions for the success of fighting."
3 Then I'm going to drop down to the first paragraph that follows
4 that portion. It's on page 354 in the English, Your Honours: "The SDS and
5 the state institutions that have been established take the most credits for
6 arming the Serb people with personal weapons, which was made possible by
7 the support of many Serb officers and the commands of the former JNA on the
8 territory of the former BiH. Serbs working in the internal affairs
9 institutions and in the political institutions of the army Serbia, and SJR
10 also contributed to this. In May 1992, after the JNA left our territory,
11 the army of the Republika Srpska was established," and it goes on.
12 Now, Mr. Stavnjak, again, this is General Gvero talking about the
13 SDS taking the most credits for arming the Serbian people with personal
14 weapons. Do you have any -- does that refresh your recollection or does
15 that assist you in recalling the events that took place in Gorazde or in
16 areas around Gorazde?
17 A. No. I've just scanned this document, the bit that you've just
18 read out, and my only comment, if I may, is that the SDS led to a political
19 awakening of the Serb people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that's what it
20 says in the first sentence, basically.
21 MR. HARMON: I'm going to distribute one more document, Your
22 Honour. This is a document that is P51, previously exhibited. This
23 document, Your Honour, has, first of all, a cover letter from General
24 Kukanjac to the JNA General Staff. What this document is is the
25 conclusions of the evaluation of the situation of the BiH territory -- on
1 the BiH territory in the zone of responsibility of the 2nd Military
2 District. It is a military secret. It has been exhibited as P51 in the
4 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, I want to refer you to a portion of this document.
5 In the B/C/S version, it is found on page 4. If you turn to -- page 5.
6 I'm sorry. Page 5 of the document. Do you have page 5 in front of you,
7 Mr. Stavnjak?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I have no -- I have a page 4, and the
10 next one has been handwritten 172, but the 5 does not appear. But it seems
11 there's double numbering on it.
12 MR. HARMON: I was referring to the B/C/S version, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was looking at the B/C/S version, Mr.
15 MR. HARMON: I'm referring, then, to the ERN number at the top,
16 then, that has -- ends in digit 7209.
17 JUDGE ORIE: 7209.
18 MR. HARMON: The B/C/S.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I wonder whether we have the same
20 document in front of us, because I have -- last four digits always 0, and
21 then ranging from 106 until 116. So there might be a problem. I'm talking
22 about the B/C/S version.
23 MR. HARMON: Apparently there are two different copies with two
24 different sets of numbers. I will refer to the set of numbers that Your
25 Honours have.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we then perhaps have a copy shown to the
2 witness on the ELMO? Or perhaps refer to the original P51 and have that on
3 the --
4 MR. HARMON: I can direct the witness, Your Honour, to the right
5 page, then. I'm sorry for the delay.
6 Q. Witness, the document you have in front of you has at the top, it
7 has numbers that read -- it's on page 4 of the document, and on the top
8 you'll see number 02100109. That's the page where the portion I'm
9 interested in starts. And I am particularly interested on the next page,
10 the next page, sub-part E. And in the English version of this document,
11 Your Honours, I'm interested in directing Your Honours' attention to --
12 JUDGE ORIE: It seems to be in the paragraph --
13 MR. HARMON: Page 6, and it is sub-part E on page 6.
14 Q. Do you see the portion I'm referring to, Mr. Stavnjak?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. Now, this confidential report from General Kukanjac, do you know
17 who he was?
18 A. I didn't know him myself, but I heard he was a general who, at
19 the time, was -- I don't know whether he was a commander of the 6th
20 Sarajevo District in the former JNA, something like that.
21 Q. Okay. And this portion that I've referred you to, Mr. Stavnjak,
22 it deals with volunteer units in the zone of the 2nd Military District.
23 And under sub-part E, it reads as follows: "On the territory of the 4th
24 Military District, in the municipalities Kalinovik, Foca, Cajnice, Gorazde,
25 there are 6.500 people in volunteer units (that was formed earlier by the
1 4th Corps)."
2 This document is dated March 20th, 1992. What can you tell us
3 about those volunteer units, Mr. Stavnjak, that were formed in the
4 Municipality of Gorazde?
5 A. I have no knowledge about the formation of these units at the
7 Q. Do you have any reason to dispute General Kukanjac in his
8 confidential report, that such units were formed in your district?
9 A. This is the first I've heard of it. I have no idea.
10 Q. So you don't dispute General Kukanjac when he asserts this in a
11 confidential military secret document that went to the headquarters, to the
12 Main Staff?
13 A. I can't answer the question, because I'm not familiar with these
14 matters at all, so --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
17 Q. One final question on the issue of arming, Mr. Stavnjak. What
18 can you tell the Trial Chamber about the delivery of 30 tonnes of weapons
19 and ammunition that were shipped from it Pale to the village of Odzak and
20 later distributed to the Serbs? Can you tell us anything about that event?
21 A. I know nothing about it.
22 Q. Let me turn, then, my attention to another topic, Mr. Stavnjak.
23 We're finished with that document. Thank you.
24 Did the --
25 [Prosecution counsel confer]
1 MR. HARMON: We're going to distribute another document, Mr.
2 Stavnjak. This next document, Your Honour, is a document that's been
3 previously exhibited. It's P64A and P65, Treanor, 11, tab 113. It is from
4 the 12th Session of the Assembly of the Bosnian Serb People, held in Pale
5 on the 24th of March, 1992.
6 Q. I want to direct your attention, Mr. Stavnjak --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
8 MR. HARMON:
9 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, I want to direct your attention to a decision on
10 the verification of decisions on the proclamation of newly established
11 Serbian municipalities passed by municipal assemblies. And this
12 verification of a decision lists municipalities passed by municipal
13 assemblies, and it lists the newly-established Serbian municipalities in
14 the territory of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and
15 verifies them. And one of the locations where this is verified is in
16 Gorazde. What can you tell us about that, Mr. Stavnjak? Do you know
17 anything about the proclamation of Serbian assemblies that were established
18 in your municipality?
19 A. No, I'm not familiar with this.
20 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be a problem, but ... If you don't
21 speak through the microphone, Mr. Krajisnik, it will not be ... Yes, it's
22 internal communication, I do understand, between Mr. Krajisnik and ...
23 [Defence counsel confers with accused]
24 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, perhaps this discussion could take
25 place during the recess.
1 JUDGE ORIE: It depends on whether it's relevant for what happens
2 at this moment in Court, Mr. --
3 MR. STEWART: Mr. Krajisnik is having difficulty I think finding
4 the spot in the document.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I could -- if I -- let's have a look at it. I see
6 that it's under decision. Mr. Krajisnik, it says [B/C/S spoken] under 8,
7 and then we come to a decision, and on the top of page 41, the last
8 municipality mentioned in the B/C/S copy is Gorazde. Yes? You found it?
9 Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.
10 MR. HARMON:
11 Q. I wanted to clarify -- Mr. Stavnjak, I wanted to clarify part of
12 your testimony yesterday. You were discussing the theft of explosives from
13 the factory at Pobjeda, at page 25 of your testimony. I just want a brief
15 You testified as follows. This is --
16 MR. HARMON: I'm referring, Your Honour, to lines 23 through 25.
17 Q. You were discussing hearing about explosives and explosive
18 devices being taken out of the factory, and you said, at line 24: "It was
19 mostly employees of Muslim nationality, in fact, that were involved."
20 Were members of other nationalities also taking out explosives?
21 A. Not to my knowledge, because they were not in a position to do
22 so, because of the kind of management we had and because of the physical
23 conditions and security service there. So there were guards, et cetera.
24 And it wasn't possible to enter the premises without an adequate pass.
25 Q. So what did you mean by the word "mostly employees of Muslim
1 nationality," in your evidence yesterday?
2 A. I may have said that but, of course, if one nationality controls
3 the comings and goings with regard to any given company, the other
4 nationality would not have been in a position to engage in any such
6 Q. I don't care to belabour the point, Mr. Stavnjak.
7 Let's talk about the rising tensions that took place in your
8 municipality, about which you testified yesterday. You testified about an
9 incident at a petrol station on the 11th of March, and you said that that
10 was the first incident relating to inter-ethnic tensions. And you said
11 that: "Serbs set up barricades where they made up a majority." And you
12 used the word "barricades." I'm referring to page 33, lines 22 to 23.
13 And later in your evidence, Mr. Stavnjak, you said: "The Serbs
14 set up just one checkpoint."
15 Now, what was it, Mr. Stavnjak? Did they set up, after this
16 incident at the petrol station, did they set up one barricade or did they
17 set up more than one barricade?
18 A. To my knowledge, because I was in my flat - I couldn't see it all
19 - but on the basis of what I heard, there was a checkpoint towards our
21 Q. So is it -- you don't know whether they set up one or more than
22 one barricade; is that your evidence?
23 A. Yes, yes. I heard there was a single barricade in front of the
25 Q. I want to show you a document.
1 MR. HARMON: This, Your Honour, is a media report from Tanjug.
2 It's dated the 21st of March - I'm sorry - yes, dated the 21st of March,
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is it not yet in evidence?
5 MR. HARMON: It's not in evidence, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then the number would be?
7 THE REGISTRAR: P968, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
9 MR. HARMON:
10 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, this is in English, so let me read this to you.
11 This is a report from Tanjug. It's dated the 21st of March, 1992, and it
12 says: "The National Defence Council of the Gorazde Municipal Assembly, in
13 which there are no representatives of the Serbian nation, proclaimed a
14 state of emergency today and adopted a decision restricting the movement of
15 all people other than those working for those services needed to maintain
16 life as usual. Special territorial defence units have also been mobilised.
17 The state of emergency was proclaimed after Serbs, dissatisfied with
18 several months of gasoline rationing, erected barricades near gasoline
19 stations last night. Mayor Hadzo Efendic, who was also chairman of the
20 party of the Democratic Action's municipal committee, refused to talk with
21 representatives of the Herzegovina assembly delegation, and republican
22 Internal Affairs Ministry representatives are expected in Gorazde.
23 Meanwhile, barricades have been erected by both the Serbs and the Muslims."
24 So, Mr. Stavnjak, this article suggests there's more than one
25 barricade in Gorazde set up by the Serbs, also suggests there's more than
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 one barricade set up by the Muslims. Do you have any reason to disagree
2 with this Tanjug report?
3 A. To my knowledge, there was just one barricade in an inhabited
4 area called Rijeka, and it's near the church, as far as the Serb barricades
5 were concerned. And, of course, there were quite a few more on the Muslim
7 Q. Did you see that barricade?
8 A. No. I just heard of it from my relatives.
9 Q. Were the Serbs armed at that barricade?
10 A. No. That's what my relatives told me. And I told you what I saw
11 when I went to the shops.
12 Q. I want to ask you about another incident, Mr. Stavnjak. Perhaps
13 you can assist us with this incident.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, the copy we received, it seems to be the
15 result of some highlighting which makes parts illegible. Is there any
16 solution to that? And it seems to be in the next one as well.
17 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I can explain that. I prefer
18 explaining that --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
20 MR. HARMON: -- a little later.
21 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear, then, from you.
22 MR. HARMON: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
24 MR. HARMON:
25 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, this is a --
1 MR. HARMON: This needs an exhibit number as well, and this is a
2 Sarajevo --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number?
4 MR. HARMON: -- network report.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P969, Your Honours.
6 MR. HARMON:
7 Q. I'll read this, Mr. Stavnjak, and maybe you can assist us with
8 this, because this is dated the 23rd of March, 1992. It reads: "Sarajevo
9 Radio Sarajevo network, and then --"
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, those who are listening to the French
11 channel ask for my attention to your speed of speech.
12 MR. HARMON: I'll slow down, Your Honour.
13 Q. I'll read from the fourth line down. This is dated the 23rd of
14 March, 1992: "As we have been informed by the Ministry of Internal Affairs
15 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Trovrh radio transmitter was taken over
16 yesterday afternoon. This transmitter was designated as a facility of a
17 special importance for the republic by decree of the Executive Council of
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The station was first surrounded and then taken over
19 by a group of some 100 armed civilians of Serbian nationality. During this
20 action, three employees of Sarajevo Radio and Television and two active
21 militiamen of Serbian nationality from the Gorazde Police Station were
22 inside the building."
23 Mr. Stavnjak, what can you tell us about the takeover? First of
24 all, can you tell us where the Trovrh radio transmitter is located? Is
25 that in Gorazde municipality?
1 A. Yes. This TV transmitter is in the area of Gorazde.
2 Q. Now, this article -- this report reports 100 armed civilians of
3 Serbian nationality. Can you comment on that, Mr. Stavnjak?
4 A. No. I'm not aware of that.
5 Q. Do you remember this incident?
6 A. I saw it on TV, when the reserve Serbian police went up to the
7 Trovrh transmitter. I saw it on TV.
8 Q. What can you tell us about the policemen who were from Gorazde
9 participating in this event?
10 A. I don't know. I don't know. I can't tell you anything about
11 that. I don't know any of these facts.
12 Q. This event, Mr. Stavnjak, coming approximately 12 days after the
13 incident at the gas station, did this increase tensions within your
15 A. Yes. During that period of time, the inter-ethnic relations were
16 rather tense.
17 Q. And did this increase the anxiety of the Muslim community within
18 Gorazde municipality?
19 A. I wouldn't agree with that. The only people that felt any
20 anxiety were the Serbs, who were a minority in Gorazde, and they were the
21 ones who were threatened.
22 Q. And why was it, in your opinion, Mr. Stavnjak, that the Muslims
23 didn't feel any anxiety over the capture of a transmitter station that was
24 used and had been used up to the time of its seizure for the transmission
25 of radio emissions from Sarajevo? Let me phrase the question -- let me
1 rephrase that again, Mr. Stavnjak.
2 Once the radio transmitter was captured, are you aware that the
3 transmitter was then directed so it could receive transmissions from
4 Belgrade and not from Sarajevo?
5 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
6 Q. Okay.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I'm looking at the clock. How much time
8 would you still need?
9 MR. HARMON: An hour, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's far beyond the 60 per cent, Mr. Harmon.
11 MR. HARMON: I will try to expedite it, Your Honour. I'll go --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we'll consider it.
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please be aware that these rules, although not
15 always strictly applied -- it's not a rule. Mr. Stewart would immediately
16 correct me and say that it was a 60 per cent guidance only, but
17 nevertheless, would you think over during the next break what is really
18 essential. I mean, the Chamber has now heard during the examination-in-
19 chief about quite a couple of incidents, and the Chamber has heard in the
20 cross-examination about some other incidents, or read about some incidents,
21 not heard very much about these incidents. Perhaps you could consider to
22 what extent filling a basket with further incidents would assist the
23 Chamber and look at what is really essential for your cross-examination.
24 The Chamber might have some questions as well.
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I comment? I certainly wouldn't
1 for one moment suggest that what we submit as a guideline for the Defence
2 is a rule for the Prosecution. That wouldn't be fair. But Your Honour,
3 it's this: It is very disruptive when we have no advance notification that
4 the cross-examination is going to take longer. Some adjustment today has
5 already been made. The result of this is further adjustment affecting
6 people outside the courtroom, including the next witness, also then have to
7 be made when the examination takes considerably longer. We're all
8 flexible, Your Honour, but the more advance notice we have that it's going
9 to take longer, the less disruption for all concerned.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: The Judges will consider the matter during the
12 break. But, Mr. Harmon, it might be a good idea that you at least put your
13 list of witnesses such in order that the most important questions, that the
14 most important questions are on top and prioritised already. We'll consider
15 the matter and we will adjourn until 25 minutes past 4.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 3.56 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 4.28 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, the Chamber has considered the matter
19 and expects you to -- those questions to the witness you could put to him
20 in 15 minutes.
21 MR. HARMON: 15 minutes, Your Honour?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. HARMON: 15 minutes. Thank you.
24 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, have you heard of the order by Mr. Mandic to
25 separate the Serbian police from the Muslim police? Were you aware that
1 that order was transmitted in late March?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did the police in Gorazde separate?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did that create -- did that increase ethnic tensions in your
7 A. Yes, but they were tense already in March.
8 Q. In addition to the events we've described that created or
9 contributed to ethnic tension, were you aware of the events of the ethnic
10 cleansing that had happened in Bijeljina with Arkan that occurred at the
11 end of March of 1992? Had you heard about those events?
12 A. I heard it on the media, but I can't claim for a fact that it was
13 on that date or during that period of time. I heard it on TV and on radio.
14 Q. You heard also that the city of Zvornik had been attacked by
15 Arkan and that the city of Bratunac had been taken over by volunteers who
16 had come in from Serbia? Were you aware of those events as well?
17 A. No. No.
18 Q. Did the events in Bijeljina contribute to the anxiety of the
19 Muslim population in your municipality?
20 A. In Gorazde municipality?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. In Gorazde municipality, the situation became tense in March,
23 after the arrival of the Muslim extremists by Visegrad, headed by Volica
24 Banovic, who publicly walked through the streets of Gorazde and --
25 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, I have 15 minutes. Did the events in Bijeljina,
1 Foca, Zvornik and in Bratunac contribute to the Muslim population becoming
3 A. I can't confirm that.
4 Q. You described bridges being blockaded. How far was the Drina
5 River in the location of those bridges from Serbia? Do you understand my
7 A. I don't understand what bridges you're referring to.
8 Q. You described yesterday in your testimony three bridges that were
9 blockaded in mid-April of 1992. How far were those bridges from Serbia?
10 A. I was talking about the three bridges in the town of Gorazde.
11 Q. That's correct. I'm asking you how far away those bridges were -
12 - you know, what was the distance between the Drina River at that location
13 where the bridges were and Serbia?
14 A. Some 50 kilometres or so.
15 Q. Okay. Let's turn to your testimony yesterday, your evidence
16 dealing with the Serbs that had left -- the exodus of Serbs that left
17 Gorazde on the 26th and 27th of August, the Serbs that inhabited the left
18 bank. And in your evidence, you said that the Serbs left in the direction
19 of Rogatica, and that that exodus was not organised.
20 I want to ask you some questions about that exodus. Isn't it a
21 fact that on August 27th, Gorazde, which had been under a long siege, was
22 now being relieved of the siege; the siege was being lifted? Isn't that a
24 A. No.
25 Q. Isn't it a fact, Mr. Stavnjak, that the Serb civilians were
1 ordered by Serb soldiers to evacuate?
2 A. I'm not aware of that. I can't confirm that.
3 Q. Isn't it a fact, Mr. Stavnjak, that there was an organised convoy
4 for the people who were leaving Gorazde in late August of 1992?
5 A. From the left bank?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. Yes. This was the population that was not armed.
8 Q. I want to show you an exhibit --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 MR. HARMON:
11 Q. I'm going to read to you very briefly from an exhibit. I'm going
12 to be quick with this exhibit, Mr. Stavnjak.
13 MR. HARMON: This is an exhibit that needs an exhibit number.
14 It is an article from the New York Times dated the 16th of September, and
15 it deals with the evacuation of Serbs on the 27th of August, 1992.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P970, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 MR. HARMON: This article, I just direct Your Honours' attention
20 to the portion --
21 Q. I'll read this to you, Mr. Stavnjak. It says: "The attack which
22 the Serbs all say happened in the early afternoon of August 27th came at
23 the beginning of the lifting of a long Serbian siege of Gorazde," and it
24 goes on to say: "Serbian forces had effectively encircled Gorazde, and the
25 conditions of the town had been extremely bad."
1 This article deals with the attack on the convoy that you
2 described in your evidence, and in the article it goes on to say: "Serbs
3 interviewed in a hospital in Sokolac this week said that several hundred
4 Serbian residents of the village of Jabuka and rural areas of Gorazde,
5 north of Gorazde, were ordered by the retreating Serbian soldiers to form a
6 convoy and leave."
7 It quotes a woman by the name of Veljko Lasica [phoen] who
8 says: "It was just afternoon of the 27th and we got instructions that
9 women and children and older people had to evacuate." And then there was a
10 convoy assembled.
11 So this article -- do you have any reason to dispute that
12 article, Mr. Stavnjak?
13 A. This is in English, and as far as I could follow your words, I
14 agree that women, children, and the elderly were at a risk, and that the
15 convoy left because their lives were at a risk. And they had to seek safer
16 places, and one of them was towards Rogatica.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That was not the question. The question was, where
18 you testified yesterday that it was an uncoordinated leaving of the area,
19 that Mr. Harmon puts it to you that those who left the area - I'm not
20 saying whether there were good reasons to leave the area; that's a totally
21 different matter - but they were instructed to do so.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I believe that we understand
23 each other. When I said yesterday that there was no organisation, what I
24 meant was there was a tragedy. In any case, I don't know what happened. I
25 don't know whether somebody issued an order to them or not. But as long as
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 there was a convoy, and as long as there was a tragedy that struck at one
2 place, of course there was a lack of organisation. It goes without saying.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon.
4 MR. HARMON: Yes.
5 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, you also gave evidence yesterday about the Serbs
6 leaving on the 18th and 19th of September from the right bank, and then you
7 said that they left in the direction of Cajnice, and that Gorazde became
8 ethnically clean. That was your evidence at page 54 of the transcript.
9 The reason the Serbs left the right bank was because Muslim
10 forces were advancing, not because they were ethnically cleansed, or
11 ethnically cleansing the right bank of the Drina River; isn't that correct?
12 A. Well, this is now a contradiction to what you formerly said, that
13 Muslims in Gorazde were threatened. The ratio of forces in Gorazde was
14 such that Serbs could not survive there. What I'm claiming here, as I said
15 here, is that in Gorazde, it was the Serbs that were threatened.
16 Q. My question, Mr. Stavnjak, was that the reason the Serbs from the
17 right bank of the Drina River left was because they fled in the face of
18 advancing Muslim forces; isn't that the case? They weren't ethnically
19 cleansed by the Muslims; they fled in advance of a Muslim military advance.
20 A. Yes, that was the case.
21 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I would like to introduce the next
22 exhibit. This is merely confirmatory to what the witness says. It's an
23 ECMM report dated the 23rd of September, 1992. If I could have an exhibit
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P971, Your Honours.
2 MR. HARMON: I direct Your Honours to sub-part B of the exhibit,
3 dealing with the reasons why Serbs left the municipality.
4 Next I would like to turn my attention to some of your evidence
5 yesterday, Mr. Stavnjak, at page 49 of the transcript.
6 Q. You said, and I quote: "In the first days of the war, all those
7 inhabited areas, villages, houses inhabited by members of the Serb people
8 were rounded up and they were taken to smaller collection centres."
9 Do I understand this piece of your evidence to say that all of
10 the Muslim -- all of the Serbian people in the municipality of Gorazde,
11 once the war started on May 4th, were rounded up, arrested, and taken to
12 collection centres? Did you mean that?
13 A. No, no. I didn't say all the people. Not all the people.
14 Q. Okay. Well, I'm not going to belabour that point, Mr. Stavnjak.
15 You testified briefly about a detention centre in Vitkovici. Can
16 you tell us how long that detention centre lasted? Do you have any
17 information about that?
18 A. Yesterday I said that I had heard that from two people from the
19 Carapic family, Momir and Milivoj Carapic, who had passed through some of
20 these camps, and I got information from them. They were in the territory
21 under the control of the Muslim units.
22 Q. Were you aware of a United Nations protection force unit being
23 stationed in the village of Vitkovici in early 1994? Were you aware of
24 that fact?
25 A. No. I knew that in 1994 representatives of the international
1 forces entered the area, but I didn't know where they were posted.
2 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm not going to -- with my limited
3 time, I will submit for the Court's examination an UNPROFOR civil police
4 report dated May 19th, 1994. I'd like to reserve --
5 JUDGE ORIE: It's a contextual exhibit?
6 MR. HARMON: It's a contextual exhibit, yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. HARMON: Then the next exhibit I'd like to turn our attention
9 to in the remaining few minutes that I have --
10 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, yesterday in your evidence you described a Orthodox
11 church that had been destroyed in Gorazde. And in respect of the mosques
12 that were in Gorazde, your testimony, at page 57, was: "Not a single
13 mosque was destroyed."
14 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I would present now to Your Honours a
15 copy of the next exhibit. It needs an exhibit number. It is a report on
16 the devastation of cultural, historical, and natural heritage of the
17 Republic Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina from April 5th, 1992, until
18 September 5th, 1995.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number?
20 THE REGISTRAR: P972, Your Honours.
21 MR. HARMON:
22 Q. The document in front of you, Mr. Stavnjak, is in English.
23 MR. HARMON: I could orient Your Honours to this document.
24 First, this is a document -- if Your Honours turn to page 3 of
25 the English, you will see a series at the top of abbreviations, and these
1 abbreviations, A through O, describe the type of structure that will be
2 described later in the tables that are attached. There is a number
3 attached -- there is a number attached to edifice and it goes 1 through 4.
4 You'll see that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. HARMON: And that describes the amount of damage that relates
7 to the document -- to the churches and mosques described in the -- later in
8 the document. And if I direct your attention to page 8 of this document,
9 there is another more refined subset of descriptions relating to the extent
10 of damage, 1 to 5. And if I could direct Your Honours' attention to
11 Cajnice, which is at page 30 of this document.
12 Q. Mr. Stavnjak, according to this document, a number of mosques
13 were damaged and destroyed in the municipality of Cajnice. First, we'll
14 start with Cajnice, because there you said: "A few mosques had been
15 destroyed." This list a number of mosques which are destroyed in that
16 municipality. And are you able to read the list on page 30 of the mosques
17 that are destroyed in Cajnice? Can you read English? If not ...
18 A. Yes. This corresponds to my statement yesterday that in the
19 territory of Gorazde, not a single mosque was destroyed, and a few mosques
20 in the territory of Cajnice were destroyed. And this is precisely what I
21 said yesterday.
22 Q. This shows in Cajnice, sir, that approximately nine mosques
23 destroyed, and it shows that mehtebs, seven mehtebs, were completely burned
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon you're 15 minutes are up.
1 MR. HARMON: I just have one more short --
2 JUDGE ORIE: I'll leave that and then --
3 MR. HARMON: I'd like to direct the witness's attention and Your
4 Honours' attention to page 9 of the exhibit that's before you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. HARMON: This is a list of mosques that are damaged and
7 destroyed in the municipality of Gorazde. You'll see that there are 22
8 reference points in that list of mosques. If Your Honours go down to the
9 next group, talking about imams, apartments, and mehtebs, you'll see that
10 there are four of those types of buildings that are damaged and destroyed.
11 And if Your Honours go down one more level, you'll see churches,
12 that there is a parish church that is destroyed in Gorazde. So I submit
13 this to Your Honours as evidence. And I'd like to put to the witness, Your
14 Honour, the following question:
15 Q. Witness, this compilation of survey of damage shows that
16 approximately 22 mosques in the municipality of Cajnice were damaged or
17 destroyed. Do you agree with that or disagree with that?
18 A. 22?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. No. I really don't know. Cajnice is a very small municipality.
21 I don't think I can agree that there is that many mosques. I'm not sure.
22 I'm not sure about this fact. 22 mosques in Cajnice?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to concentrate, Mr. Harmon, on what seems
24 to be the real -- the category 4A appears five times, category 4 being the
25 edifice was completely felled down, destroyed, no longer exists, and then A
1 is destroyed by a deliberate fire.
2 Witness, we see five times a category A. The first one is
3 described as a mosque at Osjecani residential area, and the report says it
4 was destroyed. Could you comment on that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I can't. I was nowhere near
6 that place. I did not see any devastation. Not to this day I actually
7 know what the devastation looks like.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Do we then have to understand your testimony of
9 yesterday limited to the town of Gorazde, where you said no mosque was
10 destroyed? Was that about the town or the municipality?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The town itself. But I would like
12 to say, if you allow me --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I'll allow you to add something, but I then would
14 like to ask you -- so you said about Osjecani, which also is under number
15 09, you wouldn't know about that. Old Oglecevi, do you know anything about
16 a mosque being described there? Could you comment on the report?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Do you say "I have no knowledge of it" or do you say
19 "the mosque is still there, so it must be wrong that it was described as
20 being destroyed"?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have that information,
23 JUDGE ORIE: The same about Zigovi?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no reason for me not to
25 believe this.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Would the same be true for destroyed mosque
2 in Zigovi and Kopaci?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that the testimony of the witness should be
5 understood as limited to the town of Gorazde and not to cover at least --
6 at least the entries we just discussed on this list.
7 Mr. Harmon, was this your last question?
8 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour. Looking at the clock, apparently
9 that will be my last question. Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Witness.
12 MR. STEWART: No re-examination, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: No re-examination.
14 Yes. Judge Hanoteau has some questions for you.
15 Questioned by the Court:
16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Let me come back to the incident
17 which followed the explosion in a flat. You said that it was claimed,
18 officially, that it was a gas cylinder which had exploded. Is my
19 understanding correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Who claimed that?
22 A. Well, those were claims that I never had the opportunity to see
23 in writing, but it came from MUP, from the police station. It was stated
24 that Serbs in Gorazde used to say that the official statement, in fact, was
25 that it was a gas cylinder which blew up.
1 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And what makes you say that it
2 wasn't a gas cylinder but, rather, a botched handling of an explosive
3 device which was probably in the flat in question?
4 A. According to what I heard from the neighbours of Serb nationality
5 who lived in the immediate vicinity of the place where the incident
6 happened, it wasn't a gas cylinder; they claimed that it was the actual
8 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] However, when this incident took
9 place, there was no war. There were tensions between ethnic groups, but no
10 armed conflict at the time.
11 A. No, there was no armed conflict, but later on, in the month of
12 March, three or four months later, Serbs realised that --
13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] No. I would like us to stick to
14 this point. This incident took place at a time when there was no armed
15 conflict, at a time when there was no confusion or lack of organisation in
16 terms of the institutions that existed in the municipality.
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] If such an incident takes place
19 in a municipality, say an explosion which destroys an apartment, presumably
20 there would be an inquiry carried out by the police or the fire brigade or
21 the municipal authorities. There must have been some official conclusions.
22 Now I can see that you were a civil servant at the time; you worked at the
23 municipality; you had certainly responsibilities, so you must have been up
24 to date with the way in which inquiries were being carried out as to
25 anything that took place in the municipality. So you would have had to
1 find out about any reports which might have been drawn up following that
3 A. Your Honour, I would just like to stress that the head of the
4 police station at that particular time was a Muslim and he was a member of
5 the SDA party, and he signed that report, or rather, the statement which
6 was issued for the general public.
7 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Right. My question is: Did you
8 ever see that official report?
9 A. No.
10 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] How did you find out about it?
11 A. I said that Serbs in Gorazde discussed that incident because it
12 was an incident which attracted the attention of both ethnic groups, and
13 those were the comments that I heard.
14 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Right. So those are comments
15 that you heard, and they are making you call into question the official
16 report; is that the case?
17 A. Well, that's it. If you have a number of elements coming
18 together pertaining to one and the same event, most Serbs, and I myself,
19 were led to conclude that an explosive device was at the origin of the
21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
22 I have another question to do with the destruction of the
23 Orthodox church, the church of St. George, as well as the adjoining
24 apartment. You said it happened in September 1992; am I right?
25 A. Yes. I think it happened at some point around the 1st of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 September, 1992, and I did see an official report which was drawn up by the
2 police station of Serb Sarajevo in 1994. So the report was dated in 1994
3 and it gave a description of when the church was destroyed and the criminal
4 report was filed against unknown perpetrators. And in that criminal
5 report, there is also a reference to the fact that the adjoining residence
6 in Gorazde was destroyed on the same day.
7 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Could you explain to us, very
8 briefly, under what circumstances the church was destroyed, according to
9 what you know about it.
10 A. I really wouldn't know, because I was quite far away at that
12 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] A third question: You talked
13 about -- deftly of a procession of Muslim extremists from Visegrad led by a
14 certain person, I didn't quite understand the name.
15 A. Yes. It was Mr. Murat --
16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Would you be able to tell us
17 what actually happened and why there was this procession of Muslim
18 extremists, and where exactly did it take place?
19 A. Mr. Murat Sabanovic was cruising the centre of Gorazde, and I
20 just drove by, but they were using megaphones. I didn't actually hear his
21 exact words, but it was a bit out of the ordinary at the time. I mean, it
22 was still a time of peace, and all the citizens of Gorazde used to live in
23 town at the time, back then. And he grabbed the megaphone and acted almost
24 as if there was no authority anywhere. That's what it looked like.
25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And it was when, exactly?
1 A. It was in April 1992. I wouldn't be able to tell you the exact
2 date, but I think it was either mid-April, maybe the second half of April,
4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And who was this gentleman,
5 Murat Sabatovic?
6 A. Yes. It was a man from the municipality of Visegrad. That's
7 where he resided.
8 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Where did this procession take
9 place exactly?
10 A. In town, along the streets, in town.
11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] My last question now: You were
12 asked by the Prosecution about the radio TV transmitter and the capture of
13 that transmitter, and you said that you were not present but that you,
14 yourself, saw it on TV. Am I right?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I would just like to hear your
17 reaction to that event. When you saw what was going on, how did you react?
18 How did you place this incident within the overall context of this rather
19 special atmosphere, which was very much in existence in your municipality
20 at that time?
21 A. You mean my own personal opinion?
22 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it.
23 A. Well, probably it was because Serbs in Gorazde, as presumably
24 most of the people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, disliked the rhetorical
25 approach from TV Sarajevo, which was under the control of the
1 representatives of the Muslim nationality, starting from the news
2 broadcasts and everything else. So they were against it, and that's what I
3 heard, and that's what the story was amongst Serbs in Gorazde.
4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] However, I do apologise. You
5 referred to Serbs in general, but I was addressing you, in person. What
6 was your personal view of the situation when you saw it? What was your
7 personal reaction to that event? You were a citizen of that country. What
8 was your reaction, in the face of that TV transmitter being taken over?
9 A. Well, I didn't really have a reaction, you know.
10 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Did you think that it was
11 completely illegal and unacceptable, or did you rather feel that,
12 considering the atmosphere, the overall atmosphere at the time, it was
13 something that could be considered acceptable?
14 A. It was a kind of atmosphere that nobody could keep under control.
15 I've already mentioned this. It must have happened at some point in April,
16 the second half of April. And it was extremely difficult to keep things
17 under control. Already at that time, I can't remember whether at that time
18 Mr. Murat Sabanvic used to come to Gorazde or not, but inter-ethnic tension
19 was mounting and anything went, basically.
20 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Anything was possible, both for
21 Muslims and for Serbs?
22 A. Yes, of course. Muslims as well. I mean, I don't have that
23 information. But this transmitter was very close to the Serb villages and,
24 presumably, that's the way it happened. There were Serb villages around,
25 in the vicinity of the transmitter, I mean. And a little bit further
1 afield, there were some Muslim villages, but Serbs probably got there
2 first. That's the way things happened. There was no control at all.
3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Let me reiterate my question.
4 It wasn't about finding out whether it was possible, but whether it was
5 acceptable. Did you, yourself, feel that it was acceptable? Was just
6 anything acceptable, any kind of behaviour on the part of both Serbs and
7 Muslims at that particular time?
8 A. From my own personal point of view, no. Everything that went on
9 at that time, as a human being, I must say that it was totally
11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] That was what I was asking you
12 about. Thank you, sir.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stavnjak, I would have a couple of questions for
14 you as well. You told us that charges were brought in 1994 in relation to
15 the destruction of the St. George Church. Do you remember that? Otherwise
16 I'll try to find it.
17 A. Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what happened as a result of those
19 charges? Was there someone convicted, sentenced?
20 A. I think that all that is still in place. It was sent to the
21 prosecution in Foca, and the actual documents were drafted by the police in
22 1994, the police station Serb Sarajevo. And this is a document that I
23 actually saw. I had the opportunity to look at it and to read it through.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You don't know what follow-up was given to that? I
25 mean, I'd like to know whether someone was found guilty for it, whether
1 someone was sentenced for it.
2 A. I don't have that kind of information. I really don't know what
3 the follow-up was.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to take you back to the television
5 transmitter as well. Could you tell us where exactly it was located,
6 perhaps on the basis of the map which is now part of the -- it now has
7 become part of P954, but instead of having the whole of that document put
8 before the witness -- that's the coloured ... Yes.
9 Perhaps you'll put it on the ELMO, Madam Usher, so that we can
11 Would you indicate where that television transmitter was located.
12 If the other map would better serve you, we could look at the other map.
13 A. I think it's right here, to the left of the village Borak Brdo,
14 to the left here. It should be here. Just above Kanlici, Bogdanici and
15 Borak Brdo, somewhere here, very close to this border, which is probably
16 the border of the municipality.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Close to the Rogatica municipality border. My next
18 question is: Once this had happened, and I understand the incident to be
19 that the Serbs took control over that television transmitter, did they keep
20 it under their control, and if so, until when?
21 A. I don't know exactly until when, presumably until the 27th. I
22 don't know until what time the Serbs had it under their control. I can't
23 give you an exact date. But roughly speaking, probably up until the 27th of
24 August, when Serbs basically left the area, in 1992.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what television programmes could you
1 receive before the takeover of the television transmitter, and what could
2 you watch after it had been taken over by the Serbs? And perhaps I'm even
3 more interested in what you could not see any more. You understand what I
4 mean? What was the choice for those who were watching television before
5 and after the takeover?
6 A. Yes. I think that it was programmes of TV Belgrade were being
7 broadcast, and you could no longer watch any programmes coming from TV
8 Sarajevo. I think that was what was done. And there was some mechanics
9 there, some technicians, it was there job. And there were some Serbs
10 amongst them, and I think that they sorted things out in that way.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So after the takeover, exclusively Belgrade, if I
12 correctly understand. Now, what could you see, when you are talking about
13 TV Sarajevo? Was that one programme? Was that a programme of any ethnic
14 significance or signature, or how would I have to say that? Was it mixed?
15 Was it Serb, Muslim, Croat, or were there more programmes? You understand
16 what I mean?
17 A. Yes, I understood you. In hindsight, as far as I can remember, I
18 believe that we also had a so-called Yutel channel. This was the Yugoslav
19 television, and it covered the entire area of the former Yugoslavia. That
20 was the editorial policy at the time, and I believe that the programme's
21 name or the channel's name was Yutel.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Was that the only Sarajevo television channel? Is
23 that the same as what you just said or is that a different channel?
24 A. That was the only television station that broadcast. It was
25 Television Sarajevo, but at the time there was also another channel, Yutel.
1 Sarajevo TV was the TV that provided us with all the programmes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And what do you mean by "all the programmes"? Was
3 this -- were these programmes exclusively addressing Muslims or Croats? I
4 mean, were these programmes coloured by a certain ethnicity or did you have
5 different programmes for all ethnicities? I'm trying to find out what was
6 the variety of programmes you could receive before the takeover.
7 A. I believe that there were only these two channels, Sarajevo TV,
8 and on the same channel you could also receive Yutel shows. And I believe
9 that Yutel is an abbreviation standing for Yugoslav Television.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that, but again, Sarajevo TV, the
11 programmes they broadcast, were these programmes which were linked in
12 anyway to exclusively one group of the population, or more groups? Did you
13 have, well, say Croat programmes or Muslim programmes or Serb programmes
14 from -- or was it just mono-ethnic, what they broadcast?
15 A. As far as I know, the Serbian people in Gorazde at the time did
16 not like the editorial policy of the news programmes of the then Sarajevo
17 television station.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. At the same time, were there other
19 programmes, apart from the news?
20 A. No. At that time, everybody was involved in politics. They were
21 eagerly awaiting to hear what happened here or there. This is what we all
22 followed. And the focus of the media reporting was on the news, because
23 the news at the time was the most popular show.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Were there any debates on television among
25 politicians, and would then politicians from different sides participate in
2 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand your question fully, but what I
3 can say is this: When I spoke about the interest of people at the time in
4 the news programmes, we remember the conversation amongst the six
5 presidents of the six former republics of Yugoslavia. They went on a tour
6 from one place to another. But when they ended their tour, we know what
7 happened. Yugoslavia fell apart.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to insist. If we are talking about
9 shows, you could broadcast shows which were mainly Serb oriented or Muslim
10 oriented or -- but the same for opinion programmes, that could be just
11 mainly expressing the views of Serbs or of Croats or of Muslims. I'm
12 trying to find out what exactly you could see before the takeover, apart
13 from that you didn't like the way the news was presented.
14 A. As far as I know, the news reports on particular events that had
15 been happening in some republics, such as Slovenia and Croatia, did not
16 appeal to the population, and when the conflict spread on to Bosnia-
17 Herzegovina, firstly, in the region called Posavina, then in Brod. Those
18 reports, again, did not appeal to the Serbian people. They did not like
19 the presentation of these reports as offered by the Television Sarajevo.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it's not an answer to my question,
21 because I excluded the news, but let's leave it to that for the time being.
22 Did you have any knowledge of a Crisis Staff, a Serb Crisis
23 Staff, established in Gorazde?
24 A. No.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Did you ever learn about similar types of Serbian
1 bodies which were specifically defending the Serb interests and political
2 life, so well organised?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what they were?
5 A. I can tell you only about the things that I myself witnessed.
6 Sometime in May, in Cajnice, a Crisis Staff was established.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but not such a thing as Serbian-organised
8 organ, some kind of a Serbian organ that took place in Gorazde?
9 A. No. No.
10 JUDGE ORIE: What about a Serbian War Presidency? Did that
12 A. In Gorazde? I don't know, I really don't.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You read to us a letter yesterday which, as far as I
14 understood, and I'm talking about Exhibit D90, that was a letter sent by
15 the War Presidency of the Serbian Opstina of Gorazde. Would you have a
16 look at it.
17 A. Your Honour, I saw this document yesterday for the first time. I
18 read it, but that was not the information that I had at the time about the
19 municipality of Gorazde.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And do I have to understand your testimony that this
21 did not exist, such a War Presidency? Because you say that -- or would you
22 say that at that time you didn't know about it?
23 A. At that time, I really did not have that information.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think the exhibits can be returned to the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 You told us that the police in Gorazde was split up; in what
2 portions? Was it a Serb/non-Serb, or Croat/non-Croat, or Muslim/non-
3 Muslim, or three portions?
4 A. I believe that this happened in the month of April. All Serb and
5 Muslim policemen split. How, I wouldn't know. In any case, this happened
6 in April. The Serb policemen went one way and the Muslim policemen went
7 another way.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Did they continue to work one next to the other, or
9 how should I understand this?
10 A. I think that those who separated from the others started working
11 independently. In any case, this was in the second half of April or in
12 mid-April, or maybe in the second half of April or thereabouts.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yesterday you told us that when you talked
14 about Vitkovici, that it was under control of the Muslim forces. I did not
15 fully understand. Was there a part of Gorazde municipality that was under
16 Serb control?
17 A. I don't know. I can't say that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: But how do I have to understand when you say
19 Vitkovici was under control of the Muslim forces? So you're not certain
20 about the whole of the municipality or --
21 A. Vitkovici was under the control of Muslims.
22 JUDGE ORIE: But does that make any sense to tell this, if not
23 other parts of the municipality were under Serb control?
24 A. It really depends on the period. It changed. The lines in
25 Gorazde changed very often.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And during which period did these lines
2 change? I mean, when were the lines established for the first time?
3 A. They were established around the 4th or the 5th of May. The
4 Serbian villages, the Serbian settlements existed, and likewise, the Muslim
5 villages and settlements that they controlled for their safety. On the
6 18th and 19th September, the line moved radically, when we're talking about
7 the right bank. As for the left bank of the Drina, this happened on the
8 27th of August, 1992.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You told us about who were with you when you
10 tried to cross the river three times with your car, one of them being Mr.
11 Krunic. Do you remember?
12 A. Yes, Marko.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You were stopped by the police, and Mr. Krunic
14 had a weapon. Was this weapon taken from him or could he keep it?
15 A. He could keep it. He was an active policeman. He was a police
16 officer, and he had an official pistol.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And was that before the police was divided or was it
19 A. I can't say which event preceded the other, but this all happened
20 within the space of a couple of days. The police still worked together.
21 If they had not worked together, I believe that the pistol would have been
22 taken away from Mr. Krunic.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That sounds a bit like speculation, but I can
24 imagine that you had that expectation.
25 These were my questions to you. Did the questions of the Bench
1 raise any need for further questions by the parties?
2 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour.
3 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart?
5 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: These were my questions. Since we have no further
7 questions for you, I would like to thank you very much, Mr. Stavnjak, for
8 having come to The Hague and having answered the questions of the parties
9 and of the Bench. I hope you have a safe trip home again, and you are
11 Madam Usher.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: I would now like to deal with the exhibits, but we
15 have several problems as far as translation is concerned. Fortunately, not
16 only Defence problems, but I also saw some Prosecution exhibits in English
17 only, without B/C/S translation, Mr. Harmon, especially the Tanjug report
18 and other documents are not available in B/C/S.
19 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour. We listened to the evidence of
20 this witness and we were able to collect those without having time to have
21 them translated. We will do so.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, that's what happens now and then, so all
23 parties know.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Let's start. It was a Defence witness -- Defence
2 Exhibit D89, which is a map marked by the witness; any objection, Mr.
4 MR. HARMON: No objection.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's admitted into evidence.
6 Then we have D90. Mr. Stewart, we are still waiting for an
7 English translation of that document, which is the letter answer to the
8 Muslim people and Muslim Assembly of the Gorazde municipality. The Chamber
9 would like to have a written translation and not just work on the basis of
10 the transcript.
11 MR. STEWART: Yell, of course, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And there was a second document, although I think it
13 was not -- it was on your list, but then not put to the witness, if I am
15 MR. STEWART: It was put to the witness. It was very brief, Your
16 Honour, because he -- I think he said he had never seen it before and --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you tender that into evidence? Because if
18 the witness has not seen the document, it might not make --
19 MR. STEWART: It's not necessary at this point, Your Honour, if -
21 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no. It was the document that was already in
23 MR. STEWART: If it was already in, then --
24 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for the mistake I made. That means that
25 D90 is still pending and D89 is admitted into evidence.
1 We now turn to the exhibits tendered by the Prosecution, starting
2 with P965. That is the -- it says the map of Gorazde municipality, but I
3 think, as a matter of fact, it is the census figures, no? That's --no.
4 Map of Gorazde municipality. Let me just have a look at it. Yes. I will
5 show it to you, Mr. Stewart, any objection?
6 MR. STEWART: Well, not from this distance, or at all, I think,
7 Your Honour. No, there's no objection to that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: As usual, we find them in the other binder. Then
9 965 is admitted into evidence. We have P966, the letter sent to President
10 Karadzic, dated the 25th of May. And I'll -- yes, perhaps I'll do that
11 first. Any objections?
12 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's, then, admitted into evidence. Then we have
14 the handwritten notes on the P967. There is an English translation. Let
15 me just have a look.
16 MR. STEWART: Yes. Those are the ones, Your Honour, where we'd
17 quite like some sorting out as to what exactly they are said to be. But
18 Mr. Harmon has helpfully indicated that he will pursue that.
19 MR. HARMON: It's our submission, Your Honour, that these are
20 notes that were retrieved in Gorazde. These reflect Variant A and Variant
21 B, these handwritten notes, and they reflect the implementation of those --
22 at least elements from Variant A and Variant B in the municipality of
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. STEWART: That's a submission as to what they do, Your
1 Honour, not as to what they are.
2 MR. HARMON: Well, I've said what they are, and they are notes
3 that were recovered in Gorazde, provided to us by the Bosnian authorities.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but do we have any further details as where
5 exactly? Because when I asked you, you said where another document was
6 found and not this one.
7 MR. HARMON: No, there are two documents, Your Honour. There's
8 Variant A and Variant B. I said --
9 JUDGE ORIE: I understand that you explained where that was
10 found. Now, is it known where this was found?
11 MR. HARMON: I will make a further inquiry, Your Honour, and find
12 out exactly. I know it was found in the Gorazde -- retrieved in the
13 Gorazde municipality by the --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. HARMON: -- Bosnian government.
16 JUDGE ORIE: But, of course, it could make quite some difference
17 whether it's found in a home inhabited by a Serb or in the party offices of
18 either SDA or SDS. That might make a difference.
19 MR. HARMON: I intend to make a further inquiry, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And then we have that part of the document, which
21 you presented as one document, which relates to October. Is that something
22 you would still want to make --
23 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. I will present a contextual
24 document in respect of that to show what happened in October, that it's our
25 submission gave rise to this particular October portion.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So then the reason why these documents at this
2 moment are together is on the basis of that present presumption that they
3 were found together?
4 MR. HARMON: Right. Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And we'll further hear from you about the October
7 MR. HARMON: Correct.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then I take it that we are not deciding on admission
9 at this moment. And for Mr. Registrar, there is a translation, P967.1.
10 I'll write that down.
11 Then media report, Tanjug, P968. There's no B/C/S translation
12 yet. And we would learn about -- or you would explain to us, Mr. Harmon,
13 why we find on the top of this document and also on, I think was that P969,
14 why we find the black boxes at the top.
15 MR. HARMON: I will be glad to, Your Honour. May I go into
16 private session?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll go into private session.
18 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. So P968 and P969 are now awaiting for
23 translation before a decision of admission will be taken.
24 P970 has not yet -- there's no B/C/S translation yet, Mr. Harmon.
1 MR. HARMON: Not yet, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait for that. The P971 I think is the
3 same, no translation yet. It is a relatively short document.
4 MR. HARMON: That's correct, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll wait for a translation before any decision
6 will be taken on admission.
7 And then, finally, P972, the report of the Institute for
8 Protection of Cultural and Natural Heritage of the Republic of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina, where there is -- that's also in English only. I wonder, Mr.
10 Stewart -- I don't know whether there is a B/C/S translation, whether that
11 exists, Mr. Harmon. If not, I wonder whether we should engage into
12 translations of many, many pages just listing mosques in the various
13 municipalities, or whether, for example, we could limit ourselves to
14 perhaps the first seven pages and then only the relevant portions.
15 Because this is a document of which I think it would really make
16 not much sense to have this all translated at this moment, although the
17 Rule is there. The Chamber wants to be very strict on the matter. I
18 really ask myself whether, with the consent of the parties, we could not
19 find a practical solution for this.
20 MR. STEWART: Well, with respect, what Your Honour says makes a
21 great deal of sense. We're not particularly interested either way with
22 translations where the content is really pretty obvious without that. So
23 we certainly, with respect, endorse Your Honour's approach.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then I would suggest the following: No decision is
25 taken at this moment about admission into evidence. We expect the Defence
1 to come up, within the next ten days, with a position as far as whether, at
2 all, a translation would be needed, and if so, whether it could be limited
3 to certain portions of that document.
4 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. We'll do that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's all, as far as the exhibits are
7 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, there was one exhibit, Your Honour,
8 that I mentioned, about Vitkovici, contextual document.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. HARMON: I have that document. If I could present that, at
11 least have it marked as --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that that would be the only contextual
13 exhibit on Gorazde, or --?
14 MR. HARMON: No.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Because we usually waited until the end of the
16 testimony on a certain municipality and then have at one occasion the
17 contextual exhibits not presented to a witness tendered, and then we would
18 hear from the Defence whether there would be any objections, or whether the
19 Chamber would have any hesitations. So if it's the last one, then I have
20 no problem. If it's not, then I'd rather would invite you to wait.
21 MR. HARMON: I'm at your disposal, Your Honours. I don't know if
22 this is the last witness for Gorazde, because I'm not calling these
23 witnesses. Mr. Stewart is.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Of course.
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the same thought, of course, is
1 occurring to me, that Mr. Harmon can't know.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we're not inclined, but really, in the
4 Trial Chamber's hands here, whatever is more convenient. Because
5 certainly, the Defence is not going to insist that we wait until --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
7 MR. STEWART: -- the last Gorazde witness should come along. It
8 doesn't really --
9 JUDGE ORIE: You've looked at these documents. Have you made up
10 your mind as to whether there's any objection.
11 MR. STEWART: No, there's no objection, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No objection. Then if a copy could be given to -- a
13 number should be assigned. Yes.
14 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P973, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's have a look on whether it's available in both
16 languages. It's only in English.
17 Mr. Harmon, therefore, this contextual document, we will decide
18 once a B/C/S translation has been provided, and it's already on the record
19 that there's no objection from the Defence.
20 Then is there anything else? Mr. Harmon.
21 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, there was a question put to the witness
22 by me in respect of Vojislav Krunic.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. HARMON: And whether he was a member of the SDS Executive
25 Board in 1991 and 1992. That information is found in Mr. Treanor's report,
1 I'm informed, at annexes 7 and 8.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. It seems a lot of people had
3 the name of Krunic in that municipality. I think we came across three of
4 them already. Thank you for that information.
5 Is there anything else, Mr. Stewart?
6 MR. STEWART: No, thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon. We'll then adjourn until tomorrow, at a
8 quarter past 2.00, in this same courtroom.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.51 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 2nd day of
11 November, 2005, at 2.21 p.m.