1 Wednesday, 2 November 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- On commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honour. This is case number
7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 Mr. Josse, is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
10 MR. JOSSE: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And that would be no protective measures.
12 MR. JOSSE: No.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That would be Mr. Djordjevic, if I'm well-informed.
14 MR. JOSSE: That's correct.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher, would you please escort
16 Mr. Djordjevic into the courtroom.
17 I take the opportunity since the witness is not there yet,
18 Mr. Josse, I take it that you're aware that at least in relation to Foca
19 that there are a lot of adjudicated facts ranging from number 327 up till
20 and including - there are hundreds of them - 608. Almost 300 facts
21 already established in relation to Foca.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Djordjevic.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djordjevic, you're called to testify in this
1 court. Can you hear me in a language you understand?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give your testimony, the Rules of
4 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that
5 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The
6 text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher. May I invite you to make
7 that solemn declaration.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated,
11 Mr. Djordjevic.
12 WITNESS: SLAVKO DJORDJEVIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE ORIE: You'll first be examined by Mr. Josse, counsel for
15 the Defence.
16 Mr. Josse, please proceed.
17 Examined by Mr. Josse:
18 Q. Your name is Slavko Djordjevic, and you were born in the Foca
19 municipality; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You have lived there for many, many years, and you worked in the
22 hospital as the head -- as a medical technician; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And, I think, presently you still work there as the head medical
25 technician in the surgery department; is that right?
1 A. Yes, the head technician at the surgery department.
2 Q. It's right that you lived in 1990, shall we say, in Foca town
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And it's right that that was a town that at that time was split
6 almost -- well, roughly 50 per cent Serb population, 50 per cent Muslim?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the total population of the town was about 15.000 inhabitants
9 at that time?
10 A. In the town itself, yes.
11 Q. And the total number of inhabitants in the municipality of Foca
12 was about 40.000?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, isn't this all in the adjudicated facts,
14 327, according to the 1991, it says that Foca municipality had a
15 population of so and so much people? We are going over ground which is
16 already in the decision.
17 MR. JOSSE: I'll certainly move on, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. JOSSE:
20 Q. Dealing with your background, you were a member of the Communist
21 Party between 1974 and 1978; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You were a deputy in the BiH Congress as a representative of the
24 health authority of Foca; is that correct?
25 A. Can I just say something? I was the representative of the health
1 industry between 1974 and 1978, and I was a member of the League of
2 Communists until it fell apart.
3 Q. I'll interrupt you. It's my fault. You were a member of the
4 League of Communists until 1990 and the 1974 to 1978 was when you were a
5 representative of the Congress. That's right, isn't it? My apologies.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you joined the SDS in 1990?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And in fact, recently you have become a deputy on behalf of the
10 SDS in the Foca Municipal Assembly?
11 A. After the elections, I became a member of the SDS Board in Foca.
12 That would be that.
13 Q. Which elections were those, are we talking about?
14 A. Recently in Foca, due to the fact that one member of the SDS
15 stopped with his activities, new elections had to be held in Foca.
16 Q. Okay. I'm going to move back, if I may, to November 1990, and I
17 want to ask you about a meeting that you attended at the football stadium
18 in Foca, which was an SDS meeting. Do you remember that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And about how many people were present at that meeting?
21 A. There should have been some 10.000 people at that rally at the
22 football stadium.
23 Q. And were you just one of the 10.000 or did you take some active
24 part in the meeting?
25 A. I was a mere participant. I just attended the meeting, that was
2 Q. In the same year, 1990, tensions rose in Foca?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I want to ask you about television broadcasts and how they
5 affected the tension.
6 A. Well, we watched TV all the time, and there was some sort of a
7 voting in the Assembly or delegates from Foca were present there. One of
8 them was Saja Sainpasic. He was at the Assembly, and he said something
9 that we didn't like. Actually, he sang something like "there's a duck,
10 there's a goose, and this country will be Turkey." And already then at
11 that time he already announced some tensions between the Serbs and the
12 Muslims. This is what we watched on TV, and we did not care for that too
14 Q. And how -- in terms of weapons, were you aware of anyone being
15 armed, so making the tension rise?
16 A. That started later on, on the eve of the war in 1992, at the
17 beginning of that year that is. I saw with my two own eyes how my
18 neighbour Saja got armed. I was standing at my window, and I saw him
19 distributing some 40 rifles to his neighbours in the evening, and then
20 they would stand duty with those rifles. All of these rifles had been in
21 his garage. That was the beginning at 1992, during those months of the
23 Q. Let me stop you there. Again, we'll come to that in a moment.
24 Before we do that, I want to ask you about an incident at the Focatrans,
25 which is a public transport enterprise in Foca.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And this is an incident in March of 1990.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is it an incident that you're about to describe that again caused
5 unrest and a rise in the feelings of the population?
6 A. Yes, but I have to elaborate a little. Focatrans was a public
7 company for transport, and it employed both Serbs and Muslims. The head
8 of the company was a Muslim. Because of some discourse some Serbs were
9 fired, and after that there was some sort of a demonstration in front of
10 the municipal building and in front of the Politika. The demonstrations
11 lasted for two days and all of a sudden the Muslims disappeared from the
12 rally. Nobody but the Serbs rallied. In order to calm down the Serbs,
13 the specials were called from various parts, from Sarajevo. At their head
14 was somebody called the Vikic who was the head of the special group belong
15 to go Alija during the war. It was then when the Serb people in the Foca
16 were beaten up, dispelled, and the Serbs were demoralised. They were
17 angry. We didn't know why we were beaten. The demonstration was
18 peaceful, and we didn't want anything but justice in our company. This
19 was one of the tensions.
20 Q. I want to ask you as well about the first meeting of the SDA in
21 Foca. Did you witness that meeting?
22 A. The SDA meeting took place in Pijesak on the right bank of the
23 Drina some 50 metres away from my apartment. This is the area which is
24 the size of two football pitches, an area by the Drina River. There was
25 so many people there, as many as two stadiums could hold. I don't know
1 how many there were.
2 And it doesn't really matter that the meeting was held but that
3 the Serbs were provoked from that meeting. A lot of people spoke at that
4 meeting. Some Serbs attended the SDA meeting. I was on the edge of the
5 football pitch, and I listened to all the discussions, and it was all good
6 and well until people started moving through Foca in cars with two fingers
7 in the air, with some flags, emblems, shouting provocations, and this is
8 what we did not like, and this is one of the ways tensions were being
9 created in Foca.
10 Q. I'd like to follow that up in two or three ways. First of all,
11 there's a map that we have of Foca town.
12 MR. JOSSE: Your Honours, there is one coloured copy and I think
13 we've got two black and white copies. Perhaps the coloured one could go
14 on the ELMO, please.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher will assist in putting it on the --
16 MR. JOSSE:
17 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, I'd like to you point out - you're going to be
18 given a rod in which to do this pointing - where the Pijesak stadium on
19 the right bank of the Drina is on that map.
20 A. This is the Drina. This is Cehotina, this is the centre of town.
21 This is Donje Polje where the majority of the population were Muslims.
22 This is the detention centre about which I'm going to speak later on, and
23 this is Pijesak. Here is Pijesak. Here is Pijesak. This is where I'm
24 pointing to by the Drina River. This is a very large area called Pijesak.
25 I just wanted to explain how the -- the map is actually drawn.
1 Q. I will take you through the various place you've pointed out at
2 great speed a little slower as you go through your evidence. I think you
3 showed where Pijesak is on the bank of the Drina.
4 The next question I want to ask you is the flags that were being
5 waved as the people went through the town, what sort of a flag --
6 MR. JOSSE: Sorry, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, whenever a witness points at something, at
8 a map, in order to avoid that anyone reading the testimony later has to
9 consult the video, could you please briefly describe from -- if I would do
10 it, I would say the witness pointed at what seems to be an area just north
11 of where the two rivers come together immediately next to the river in
13 MR. JOSSE: Yes. It would help if the map was back on the screen,
14 please. It's not on my screen at the moment.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think if you take the other -- if you take the
16 computer monitor button then you'll get it on your screen.
17 MR. JOSSE: Thank you. Yes. I'd agree with Your Honour's
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
21 Q. Put the --
22 A. Since I live in Foca, I claim that the area that I am pointing to
23 now, this area called Pijesak, was all covered by people during the SDS --
24 by the rally itself there are two buildings by the road. Everything else
25 is just the area of -- called Pijesak and the village green called "the
1 pitch." That's the name that it is known by.
2 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you to answer to the questions but not to
3 give any further information unless specifically asked. Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.
5 JUDGE ORIE: If Mr. Josse would like to have more details, he'll
6 certainly ask for it. If not, he might have a lot of other questions for
8 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.
9 MR. JOSSE:
10 Q. Now, in the answer that you just gave, Mr. Djordjevic, you said
11 that it was during the SDS rally. I take it that was a slip of the tongue
12 and you meant the SDA rally.
13 A. SDA.
14 Q. Thank you. You described flags and emblems being waved in a
15 provocative manner. What sort of flags and emblems were being waved in a
16 provocative manner?
17 A. Those were green flags and they raised two fingers through the car
19 Q. And what did you take the two-fingered gesture to mean?
20 A. The two-fingered gesture is for Muslims, and the three-fingered
21 gesture is the Serbian sign. And flashing either two or three fingers to
22 each other is sort of an insult.
23 Q. You also mentioned that they were shouting slogans. What sort of
24 slogans were they shouting as they were parading through Foca town?
25 A. Various slogans. "This is going to be our country." "This is
1 going to be a Muslim country." "You will have to move." Those things
2 that our citizens listened to and felt provoked. Nothing could be done
3 because these people were moving in the cars rather fast. They were
4 waving those flags and showing two fingers in the air, and those were all
5 provocations against the Serb population.
6 Q. Now, I now want to move on to what you were in fact telling us
7 before, namely the arming of persons in Foca. This begun, I think you
8 told us, in the spring of 1992; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you described witnessing this from your kitchen window?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I think you told us what you saw, and I don't think you need to go
13 through that again. As a result of what you saw, rifles being
14 distributed, what did you do?
15 A. When the population saw that the Muslims were being armed, we also
16 start asking for weapons. As soon as the arms were distributed amongst
17 them, I personally got a rifle. We had in Foca the JNA, and towards the
18 exit to -- from Foca towards Godjen we had a military hangar where there
19 were weapons and, as far as I understand. I was not present there. We
20 were also given weapons from those depots.
21 Who distributed weapons I can't tell you. I don't have any proof.
22 But I know that two lads, one called Tomovic and another called Mandic
23 brought a rifle to me. I never used this rifle. I was a medical
24 professional. I keep the rifle in the house and I never used it.
25 That's how people were armed from various sources.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, if I would read from the adjudicated facts
2 that in the month before the outbreak of conflict in Foca and --"both
3 Serbs and Muslims began to arm themselves with light weapons, though
4 Muslims were is not able to do as quickly as the Serbs leaving the latter
5 better prepared for the conflict."
6 The first part of this sentence seems to be something which you
7 are now establishing again it seems, or is there any specific detail --
8 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, the witness needs to describe this in
9 outline in order for the rest of his testimony to make some sort of sense.
10 I mean, could I take the whole of the evidence in absolute fragments, and
11 I could perhaps -- I'm leading rather more than I have in the past. I
12 could lead it more still. I'm more than happy to do that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It should be clear for the Chamber whether you're
14 heading for presenting evidence which would -- which would challenge the
15 adjudicated facts or whether -- because, if not -- of course, it could be
16 that you say the personal observation is important for the Chamber to know
17 in view of the evidence still to come, but arming Muslims and Serbs is
18 something which is there already unless to be challenged, of course. But
19 I did not get the impression that that was what you were aiming at.
20 I just draw your attention --
21 MR. JOSSE: Well, quite the opposite. I mean, the witness -- as
22 Your Honour rightly observed, the witness has accepted the adjudicated
24 JUDGE ORIE: You noticed that perhaps before. I was a bit
25 cautious in saying these kind of things, but let's just -- again, if these
1 personal observations are needed to establish the evidence still to be
2 given, we have to accept that. At the same time, I draw your attention to
3 not going over ground again which is already covered by adjudicated facts.
4 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, this may be more a matter for Mr. Stewart
5 than I, but ultimately unless we endeavour to, for example, adduce some
6 evidence using 89(F), for the witness's evidence to make any sense he
7 needs to go through, in my submission, the stages, albeit in outline,
8 because what he's describing - what I'm attempting to get him to describe
9 anyway - is the rise in tensions leading to the war in this particular
10 municipality. If he doesn't mention the fact that both sides were armed,
11 then it will make no sense all.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
13 MR. TIEGER: I don't want to make a big issue of this, but it
14 seems to me when -- and, in future, when the opportunity is presented to
15 either side to outline what they're trying to elicit from the witness or
16 where they're trying to go, it may be prudent to decide whether that be
17 done outside the presence of witness. As I say, in this instance --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps I'm a bit to be blamed for that as
20 Well, please proceed, Mr. Josse. Let's see how it happens, but
21 also if you look at 333 on the adjudicated facts, then you'd see "the
22 tension are such --
23 MR. JOSSE: I'd be lying if I said I had them in front of me,
24 Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In view of what Mr. Tieger just said, it might
1 not be a good idea. Let's -- have you consulted them recently?
2 MR. JOSSE: I have not consulted them as recently as I should have
3 done. I have read them.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's then take that you -- that at least the
5 relevant portion is available to you certainly during the next break.
6 MR. JOSSE: I'll see to that.
7 Could Your Honour give me one moment.
8 [Defence confer]
9 MR. JOSSE: I endeavour to have them before the break.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. And please proceed, Mr. Josse.
11 MR. JOSSE:
12 Q. I want to ask you specifically now about the hospital and what
13 happened there in March of 1992. People -- the hospital up until that
14 point was operating as a normal hospital; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And at that point individuals started taking refuge in the
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Briefly, who were the people that took refuge in the hospital?
20 A. Well, the hospital is rather large. It could accommodate 520
21 people with a lot of rooms. Every employee, including myself, on the eve
22 of the war brought their family. I was in the hospital all the time. All
23 the medical professionals of both Serb and Muslim ethnicity did the same
24 without any problems. This is where they stayed until the moment they
25 left the hospital as -- somewhat later on.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. And what about in Foca town itself? Was there population movement
2 at this point in time?
3 A. When war broke out on the 8th of April, already on the 9th of
4 April, quite a few Muslims arrived at Foca hospital. Not because they had
5 no where else to go in town but because they were afraid of war, and they
6 wanted to seek shelter. And corridors were crowded with Muslim children,
7 the elderly, and even young people. And they stayed awhile within the
8 hospital, I mean, up until the moment when Serb forces took Foca, and then
9 they left the hospital premises overnight basically, because they were
10 afraid of repercussions, although nobody exerted any pressure. Nobody
11 asked them to leave or -- not a single person was actually mistreated or
12 abused in any way.
13 Q. And that's not quite the answer to the question I asked. I asked
14 you about Foca town itself. Forget the hospital. Did people start moving
15 around Foca town from one area to another?
16 A. Well, I didn't quite understand that's what you were after.
17 However, from Donje Polje where I used to live, well, there were more
18 Muslims there than Serbs, and whoever could travel went to places where
19 there were more Serbs, near the church, in Cerezluk there were mostly
20 Serbs there. And from the centre, for example -- well, Muslim left
21 Cerezluk and went to places where there were nor Muslims such as Donje
22 Polje. They were looking for places where they would feel safer.
23 Q. What about older people? Were they able to move?
24 A. Mine was a six-storey building. Half of the residents were
25 Muslims and half were Serbs. Only elderly men and women remained in that
1 apartment building, and they waited for the war basically. All the rest
2 left, and I went to the hospital where I worked, and I actually never left
3 the hospital premises.
4 Q. I want to ask you about the morning of the 7th of April of 1992
5 and what you encountered on the roads as you were returning to work.
6 A. The last day of my stay there was on the 7th. When I got up in
7 the morning I saw a huge lorry in front of my apartment building, and it
8 was parked sideways across the road, and that was where the first
9 barricade was. So I was on my own, and I called my colleague, Zuko Sehka,
10 or Suho, who was a Muslim woman and who was a good friend of mine. And I
11 said to her, "Look, there is a barricade and I can't get through." And
12 then I left the building and I went to the KP Dom to the penitentiary,
13 that is, and there was a new barricade there, and my colleague Uzunovic
14 Enes, who was a reserve police officer, was there and I was let through.
15 There were no problems. I had no troubles, but on that occasion there
16 were two barricades in Foca early in the morning. But during the day
17 there were no barricades at all.
18 Q. And -- well, I'm sure I can lead on this. It's right that your
19 father died on the night of the 7th, morning of the 8th of April; is that
21 A. It is.
22 Q. And it's right that you in fact buried him on the 8th of April?
23 A. I was at the hospital when the hospital manager informed me that
24 my father had died. Since there were barricades, I was unable to get
25 there. I donned my white coat.
1 Q. Are you all right?
2 A. And together with a number of other colleagues we were all wearing
3 our white coats and we set off in the direction of a village called
4 Bogavici which is near Cehotina, 17 kilometres away from Foca. I came
5 across --
6 Q. Show the learned Judges where that is on the map, please.
7 A. Okay. Once again, this is Foca. This is the river Drina and this
8 is Cehotina. Next to Cehotina you travel for about 17 kilometres. This
9 is my place of birth, my family home, et cetera. So between Preljuca and
10 Foca in the direction of Bogavici, the village of Bogavici. It figures in
11 some maps but it doesn't seem to be on this one.
12 MR. JOSSE: We've got a map of the whole municipality if that
13 would help, again, a coloured one for the ELMO and black and white one
14 for --
15 JUDGE ORIE: And that is already on one of the --
16 MR. JOSSE: Precisely. This is, I hope, leading somewhere,
17 Your Honour; that's why I'm pursuing it.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's right here, Foca. And Bogavici
19 is here. It means that we came from the opposite direction. This is
20 Bogavici. We came from Foca towards Slatina this way, and then we got
21 here. Roughly speaking, 17 kilometres away, and it says "Bogovic" on the
23 MR. JOSSE:
24 Q. Yes. Now, in order to get to --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, just for the record, Bogavici is quite in
1 the north on this map, approximately in the middle of the northern
2 boundary of the municipality.
3 MR. JOSSE:
4 Q. In order to get to Bogavici, what obstacles did you face?
5 A. At Godjen we came across barricade manned by armed Muslim reserve
6 police officers. They knew me and they didn't say a word. They just
7 said, "You can go through," because I was wearing my white coat.
8 About five to six kilometres further, we came across two
9 barricades. There was a huge trunk, a tree trunk, across the road. We
10 moved it. And then there was a pile of rocks, and it was placed there by
11 Muslim villagers. And there was nobody else there, and we just removed
12 those rocks and got to the house safely.
13 Q. And the return journey, was there any difficulty with that?
14 A. There were even two Muslims who attended the funeral service at
15 the cemetery, and on that occasion I saw and also my family who lived in
16 the village told me about some kind of tension between the Serbs and the
17 Muslims, and I went back to Foca with my colleagues at 6.00 and we went
18 straight to the hospital. There were no barricades left on the roads.
19 Everything had been removed. I entered the hospital at 6.00, and I stayed
21 Q. And you continued working at the hospital; is that right?
22 A. It is.
23 Q. When you were in the hospital that evening, the evening of the 8th
24 of April, what did you see from the hospital was happening in parts of the
1 A. On the 8th of April, upon my arrival at the hospital, at around
2 8.00 or 9.00, all of a sudden shooting started from all sides around Foca.
3 Muslims kept -- or held the left bank called Siste, and Serbs held the
4 right bank of the river called Celovina, and there was shooting coming
5 from all sides. We had no casualties coming in that night, but from the
6 surgical ward, from the terrace of the hospital, since it was on the
7 fourth and the fifth floor, we could see the first fires, that is to say
8 the houses that had been set on fire. And there was a great deal of
9 shooting. We could hear that.
10 Q. Go back to the plan, please, of Foca town. Where did you see the
11 fires coming from?
12 A. If you don't mind, I can indicate it on the map. This is the
13 hospital, and that's where we could see the fire, to the left of the
14 hospital. From the first bridge and the hotel in the direction of
15 Celovina in this area. And there are houses here near the forest, and it
16 was where the last houses were.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would prefer to have north on top of the
18 map and -- because it's a bit confusing.
19 MR. JOSSE:
20 Q. Just wait --
21 A. So I should turn it around this way. That might be clearer.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would also like to know -- to find
23 exactly where the hospital is.
24 MR. JOSSE: Yes, that was exactly my next question, precisely.
25 That's why I was asking the witness to slow down.
1 Q. Now, first of all, and just answer the question, Mr. Djordjevic:
2 Point out the hospital.
3 A. Here it is.
4 Q. Are you able to do that with -- by coming around the map? That's
5 much better. So looking at the map, towards the north on the river; is
6 that right?
7 A. Just after the river, after these flats here.
8 Q. Point next to the centre of Foca town.
9 A. Between the mouth of the River Drina and Cehotina is the main town
10 centre. There are two bridges here.
11 Q. What is the distance from the town centre to the hospital?
12 A. Kilometre and a half, tops.
13 Q. Now go back to the area, to the map, that particular orientation,
14 in other words, north as far as we could see -- no, no. Don't change the
15 maps. I'm sorry.
16 Now point out again where you say you saw houses that were on
18 A. [Indicates]
19 JUDGE ORIE: For the record, the witness pointed at an area
20 immediately north of the northern of the two bridges, very close to that
21 bridge on the right bank of the small river.
22 MR. JOSSE:
23 Q. And in the hospital, you gleaned information as to whose houses
24 were alight?
25 A. We discovered that the first houses set on fire were Serb houses.
1 I'm saying this on purpose because we were all anxious to find out whose
2 houses were on fire. We were afraid it might be our houses. And when we
3 saw the fires, somebody apparently had phoned that Zubar Kovacevic's,
4 Drago Obrenovic's, and another person's, an electrician's house, whose
5 name was on the list, was on fire. So, at any rate, four houses were set
6 alight very close to the forest just after the bridge near Cehotina.
7 That's the end of the suburban area, and those were the first houses set
8 on fire in Foca.
9 Q. And you would be able to name the persons to whom those houses
10 belonged; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And how have you learnt that information?
13 A. I've just told you. I, too, wanted to find out whether my house
14 was perhaps on fire because it was very close to that area and so we kept
15 phoning around to our neighbours and we wanted to find out what was on
16 fire in Foca. And it was very easy to get that information and we got it
17 very fast. So it was Kovacevic's, Kovac's, Obrenovic's, and Drakula's
18 house. So those four houses were on fire.
19 Q. You've already said you saw gunfire. I'm not going to deal with
20 that at the moment. It's right that the first wounded fighters began to
21 arrive at the hospital on the 9th of April?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. It's also right and, broadly speaking, it's an adjudicated fact
24 that it took about ten days for the Serbs to gain control of Foca town?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. I want to deal with the casualties who arrived at your hospital
2 in those ten days. Was there any particular obvious ethnic bias in the
3 casualties that arrived?
4 A. Foca, in a way, was rid of that sort of fighting within ten days.
5 The first two or three days we had quite a few wounded, both Serbs and
6 Muslims, and we couldn't tell who was who, and we -- we received them at
7 the surgical ward. And I worked there. And they got exactly the same
8 treatment. They shared rooms and there were no incidents, and my surgeons
9 operated on more than 60 severely wounded patients both from the Serb and
10 the Muslim side, and nobody died. And a couple of heavily injured Muslims
11 were sent to a special clinic in Sarajevo. And there is all of that
12 information on hospital -- in hospital files.
13 So in as far as the surgical ward is concerned, what I'm telling
14 you now is the truth. The patients stayed on the ward for a number of
15 days until they recovered, and when they were recovered they were released
16 from hospital. And afterwards, as far as I found out, some of those
17 soldiers were also sent to the penitentiary, in fact, for questioning and
18 were kept there. So that's as much as I have to say about the wounded.
19 Q. I think, after the fighting has ended, you visited a place called
21 A. Yes. There's a bigger company next to my apartment building.
22 It's called Elektrodistribucija, and when the area was liberated, I was
23 called by an electrician who wanted to give me some stuff for my home. And
24 also, in the course of this fighting, my apartment was demolished and
25 quite a few things were taken away and stolen, and so the electrician gave
1 me back a pen, a fountain pen that I had, and it said my -- it had my name
2 on it.
3 Q. Stop. You see, you're not answering my question. My question was
4 a simple one, and I was going to develop your evidence on this a little
5 more slowly and --
6 A. I do apologise.
7 Q. The first thing I want to ascertain is during the fighting, this
8 place, Elektrodistribucija, was used for a particular purpose?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What was his purpose?
11 A. It was a surgery for the nursing of the wounds of the injured on
12 the Muslim side.
13 Q. Am I right, it was basically a field hospital for the Muslims
14 during the fighting?
15 A. Yes, a mini-surgery.
16 Q. And as you've already told us, when the fighting had stopped, you
17 went there. It was very near your apartment, and you found some of your
18 belongings there; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What had happened to your apartment?
21 A. My flat was demolished and the rifle that had been given to me for
22 my personal use is something that I had never used, and they took it away
23 and they took some bedding. And I am a nurse, and I used to teach first
24 aid, and I had a special first aid kit which was taken away as well. And
25 some of my belongings I found again at that company, Elektrodistribucija,
1 and I saw items which had the name of my family and my own name. Those
2 were personal belongings that had been taken out of my flat.
3 Q. Did you witness the Serbs gaining control of Foca?
4 A. Within five to six days, yes. But for as long as I was at the
5 hospital, nobody was allowed to move about or leave the hospital, so I
6 couldn't visit any places or see anything.
7 Q. When it became clear that the Serbs were going to establish
8 control of the town, what happened to the Muslim staff in the hospital?
9 A. Within 20 to 25 days the Muslim staff left the hospital. It was
10 their own initiative. Nobody had been mistreated in any way. And
11 following the orders of the then director, and I got a van and I took
12 Dr. Kucuk, Dr. Asima, Dr. Tafro and took them to their flats because it
13 was still rather safe. Nobody interfered with anyone else, especially in
14 as far as the medical staff was concerned. Twenty days later I found that
15 they had all crossed over to Yugoslavia with no problem at all. So that
16 was about the medical staff. Some nurses had left, and this colleague of
17 mine, Mrs. Zuka, that I mentioned before is living in Denmark today.
18 Q. When did she leave? The hospital, I'm talking about.
19 A. Straight after those doctors. I myself accompanied her to her
20 flat and she boarded a bus together with all of her family and her two
21 sons. First of all she went to Montenegro, and then from there she went
22 to Denmark and that's where she's living at the moment. And I did the
23 same to Gohdija Refija and Hamdo. And Hamdo is working at the orthopaedic
24 hospital in Sarajevo. He used to work at the surgical ward. I took him
25 to his flat and finally he went to Montenegro. And today he's living in
2 Q. And during those ten days, did you witness any discrimination in
3 the hospital?
4 A. I claim upon my full responsibility that there wasn't any
5 discrimination. It was our task as medical staff, and it is a task for
6 medical staff everywhere in the world to take equal care of all our
8 Q. When the Muslim staff left, did they take any supplies or
9 medication with them?
10 A. Those who left at that stage, no. But there's also other
11 information that in the course of the preparations for the war they did
12 take some stuff. Do you want me to elaborate that point?
13 Q. Yes, please.
14 A. I was the head nurse, the chief nurse, and I realised that I was
15 short of some bandages and certain medication. Armina Kunavac [phoen]
16 would take as much as a hundred metres of bandages home and my nurses told
17 me about that. And then Emina Basic, after the end of the war, was found
18 in the possession of 25 kilogrammes of cotton wads. And somebody called
19 Mandzo who was a nurse as well had 100 ammonia capsules. And we
20 afterwards realised through some experts that it was intended for
21 poisoning the water supplies.
22 So those are just some examples. So I've given you these names.
23 And there was evidence to support that.
24 Q. Do you know when these items were taken?
25 A. The war started on the 8th, so this could have been sometime in
1 March, in the month of March. Those were the preparations for the
2 surgeries, for treating people during the war.
3 Q. Now, as we've got to the point where the war had started, after
4 the Serbs had gained control of Foca, what happened to the hospital?
5 A. The hospital continued operating. It still works with its full
6 capacity. We still have Muslim patients. And at that time the hospital
7 only treated -- only worked with the Serbs because the Muslims had left.
8 Currently we don't have any Muslim staff because nobody wanted to be
9 employed at the hospital. There are no returnees with that profession.
10 Q. We're talking, literally, about currently right now, are you?
11 A. Yes, I am. I'm sorry, I didn't understand your question.
12 Q. Well, I think you're jumping ahead a little bit. I'm trying to
13 deal with 1992 and what happened after the Serbs took control of Foca. So
14 that's what I want you to concentrate on, please, Mr. Djordjevic.
15 The hospital continued to function. You, I think, have told us
16 that there were still some Muslim patients; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You continued to work at the hospital; is that right?
19 A. We treated them as everybody else. And then for safety reasons,
20 for their sake, we took a van. We took two or three wounded children --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djordjevic, the question was whether you
22 continued to work at the hospital. Tell us if you were, if you --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. I'm sorry, I didn't
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Josse.
1 MR. JOSSE:
2 Q. Was the hospital -- I'm going to rephrase that if I may.
3 At some point in 1992, you started working in places other than
4 the hospital; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. One of those places that you worked in was the KP Dom?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That, as you've already told us, was a prison that was in Foca.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you point it out, please, on the map.
11 A. [Indicates]
12 Q. It's -- is that the large red building that we see in the middle
13 of the map?
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's close to the bridge which is north of the town
16 of Foca over the Drina River.
17 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. JOSSE:
20 Q. How often or how many times in 1992 did you visit the KP Dom?
21 A. I went there a dozen times or so to dress the wounds of those
22 patients who had been treated at the surgery department. We just
23 continued their treatment at the KP Dom. I was sent there as an
24 experienced nurse to administer drugs to them and dress their wounds.
25 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I'm aware, certainly now, of 462 through
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to -- many, many numbers.
2 JUDGE ORIE: The situation at the KP Dom takes a large portion of
3 the --
4 MR. JOSSE: I still intend to adduce this evidence, with
5 Your Honour's leave. Clearly the Court needs to hear what it is first of
6 all. It's -- I won't comment upon it. Perhaps --
7 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. I do understand. Mr. Josse, I think the
8 case law of this Tribunal is that adjudicated facts, of course, can be
9 challenged, but they're accepted only if in two instances -- or at least
10 if they're established after adjudication, not on -- on the basis of
11 guilty pleas. It -- I mean, just from -- let me just say from what I saw
12 from the 65 ter summary which was -- if you look at the last sentence, it
13 is put in a negative formula which certainly would not be something to --
14 to support challenging the adjudicated the facts.
15 I'm not denying any right of the Defence to -- I would say to take
16 a frontal attack, but of course it would need more than what we see at
17 this moment in the 65 ter summary.
18 I'm expressing myself in this way in order not to influence in
19 whatever way the witness. So therefore I'll take it you'll keep this
20 clearly in the back of your mind if you start questioning about this
22 MR. JOSSE: Again - I'm sure I can deal with this reasonably
23 cryptically - I expect the witness to say what is contained in that
24 document, the document Your Honour has referred to; no more than that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That would take us not more than three minutes, would
1 I say, so just to have it on the record.
2 MR. JOSSE: Correct.
3 Q. So, Mr. Djordjevic, you went to the KP Dom. I think I was asking
4 you on how many occasions. You may have said, through 1992. It was about
5 ten; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you went there for specific purposes on those ten occasions;
8 is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what was the purpose that you were asked to go to the prison?
11 A. My friend Alija Beboric -- actually, Amir Berberkic was in prison.
12 He was a surgeon who was in the front line. He was brought to the surgery
13 department wounded. We treated them and he was discharged from the
14 hospital to the KP Dom for further observation and I interviews I suppose.
15 I went to dress his wounds there. There were no problems. He was not at
16 any risk, and I also dressed the wounds of all the other people who were
17 wounded. I also found my friend and colleague Amir Suzanic [phoen] who
18 had been on the barricades, and he was also at the KP Dom at the time.
19 In other words, I was sent there to administer drugs to those who
20 suffered any pain and to dress their wounds.
21 Q. I think the Chamber might be interested in this: When you
22 administered these drugs or tended to the wounds of these prisoners, where
23 did you do that? Whereabouts in the prison?
24 A. The rooms in the prison are large. In each of them there is some
25 20 people. Those rooms would be open for me. Would I go in. I would
1 tend to the wounds. I had my medical supplies on me. I didn't have any
2 problems. People were grateful to me. They don't -- didn't complain of
3 anything to me. In other words, it was there on the spot in the rooms
4 where I tended to the wounded and to the patients.
5 Q. And there's no dispute about this. At -- during the war the KP
6 Dom was used as a detention facility for Muslims; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I think I perhaps should ask you this follow-up question: Are you
9 able to say, from anything you saw or heard, the type of Muslims that were
10 detained at the KP Dom? Let me be more specific, soldiers, civilians,
11 anything along those lines?
12 A. I didn't see a single woman or a single child. They were all
13 middle-aged men ranging from my age down to younger. None of them wore a
14 military uniform. They -- some of them wore the uniform of the reserve
15 police, and most of those people had participated in war activities. Amir
16 Beberkic was in civilian clothes but he had been in the war.
17 When the conflict broke out, 90 per cent of the population did not
18 have any uniforms. So it was very difficult for me to tell whether they
19 were civilians or whether they were members of the military. In any case,
20 they were all able-bodied men, in my view.
21 Q. I'm going to move on to another topic that I think we can deal
22 with shortly. After the Serbs had taken control of Foca, there was no
23 more fighting in the town itself; is that right?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You were therefore able to walk around the town freely?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What is your either understanding or what did you see or hear in
3 relation to the Muslim population after the Serbs took control?
4 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand your question fully. If you're
5 referring to the population, I can say that isn't Serbs took over the
6 population left the town. When I told you that people left the hospital,
7 I meant that as soon as we could move freely about the town there were no
8 longer any Muslims there. Maybe an odd one here and there in their
9 apartments, but that was all.
10 Q. And do you have any knowledge as to how and why the Muslims left
11 the town?
12 A. For safety reasons. No patient died at the surgery department. I
13 never saw a dead Muslim or Serb fighter at the surgery department after
14 the war operations. Later on, seven Serb soldiers died. We all treated
15 them at the hospital. I didn't see any fighting in the town because we
16 never left the hospital. And as for the population, in the course of two
17 or three days when the Serbian soldiers took over Foca, they had to leave
18 Foca of their own will. They were not expelled. They left the town for
19 their own safety. For safety reasons, that is.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, could I just put one follow-up question.
21 You said "for safety reasons." To what extent they were unsafe?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the Muslims were in Donje Polje
23 and when they were -- when they had prevalence there, they incarcerated
24 all the Serbs in the KP Dom. And when the Serbs took over, the Muslims
25 had to leave for fear of retaliation. And if the Muslims had been found
1 by the Serbs, I'm sure that the Serbs would have retaliated against them.
2 This was also true before the war. Wherever there were more
3 Muslims, Muslims would go there. And I'm sure that there would have been
4 more casualties if the Muslims had waited for the Serbs in the town. They
5 had to leave for safety reasons.
6 JUDGE ORIE: So you consider their fear realistic once the Serbs
7 had taken over?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Josse.
10 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I'm going to ask --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
12 MR. JOSSE: I'm going to request that the Court take a 40-minute
13 break now. I frankly -- I've got one other topic that I wish to deal
14 with. I need to speak to Mr. Krajisnik. He raised one particular matter
15 as he came into court in relation to this witness I need to discuss with
16 him. I say I suspect I won't be very much longer. So 40 minutes would be
17 very useful to me personally.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Josse, usually I'm stealing some of the
19 minutes. Let me be generous once. We will adjourn and resume at a
20 quarter past four.
21 MR. JOSSE: Thank you very much. I'm very grateful.
22 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I take it that you had an opportunity to
25 communicate with Mr. Krajisnik.
1 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, and that's really why I asked -- I've
2 asked the witness to remain out of court because there's a matter that I
3 think perhaps I should introduce and Mr. Tieger may understandably wish to
4 comment upon.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. JOSSE: The history, it won't take me very long to go through
7 it. On Friday, I think, of last week, I had a brief meeting with
8 Mr. Krajisnik at the UNDU. It was rather curtailed. In it he handed over
9 some documents in relation to both Mr. Stavnjak and Mr. Djordjevic. As
10 Your Honour may know, I was then -- I was basically away for four days. I
11 personally didn't take the documents with me. There was absolutely no
12 point. I handed them over to the interpreter who was with me, and for my
13 part, frankly, forgot about them until shortly little before Your Honours
14 came in to court at about 2.15 today when I was reminded of them.
15 Mr. Krajisnik is anxious that I put them to the witness.
16 Your Honours had better see them. They are newspaper articles, in fact,
17 and there are two extracts. The relevant parts have been translated by
18 our team, but at least that's something.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That's something, yes.
20 MR. JOSSE: And could I put them into context, please?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. JOSSE: They are interviews on two different dates. I'm not
23 sure. It may be I think in two different newspapers with the same man, a
24 man called Halid Cengic. One, we can see was in 1997. The other was in
25 1998. And they deal with effectively covert arming of Muslims before the
1 war, and Mr. Krajisnik is anxious that I introduce these in effect as
2 evidence via the witness to establish that there was covert arming, and in
3 particular he says, and I'd submit that this is right, that that has some
4 bearing on the testimony of the last witness and what happened in Gorazde
5 and how the Muslims there were armed.
6 Now, Your Honour, I have recognised that I have literally only
7 just served these on Mr. Tieger. To some extent, in fairness, that wasn't
8 Mr. Krajisnik's fault for the reasons I have already explained. I hope
9 Mr. Krajisnik will forgive me for putting it this way. I also appreciate
10 that, notwithstanding the adjudicated facts, let's leave them to one side,
11 they're not going to take this case very much further. Nonetheless, it's
12 my submission that I should be allowed to ask the witness, first of all,
13 if he knows who Mr. Cengic is, then to ask him about these two different
14 passages and whether he can comment upon them.
15 I hope that adequately explains the background.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first here what Mr. Tieger would like to say in
17 response to -- and then I also see that apart from the two newspaper
18 articles I also find a list of some 30 people.
19 MR. JOSSE: Don't worry about that, Your Honour. That will only
20 arise if the witness answers another question I've been asked to ask in a
21 particular way. That, I think, there can be no possible objection to.
22 It's an OTP document as we can see from the number and it doesn't need
23 translating. I can't see how that would have any objection to that. In
24 fact it may not arise at all.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
1 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm grateful to my learned
2 friend for anticipating my reaction both at the moment he gave me these
3 documents a moment before we resumed court and once court began. The
4 point is not either the -- at this moment, the relevance of the
5 substantive material to the issues at hand or even the extent to which
6 that relevance may have been obviated by the adjudicated facts, which is
7 an issue the court alluded to and which counsel alluded to. The fact is I
8 just got those. I know the translations are short but the articles are
9 significantly longer insofar as I can tell, and I don't have any idea, of
10 course, what they say, and so it's quite predictable that I have no choice
11 but to object.
12 Now, whether or not there's a solution the Court can craft which
13 satisfies what counsel has acknowledged as my understandable concerns and
14 the need to move forward as expeditiously as possible. I don't know. But
15 of course under these circumstances I'm not prepared to deal with these
16 documents appropriately.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could I perhaps first ask a question.
18 Mr. Krajisnik, I'll give you an opportunity in a second.
19 Ljiljan, what kind of a periodical is that? I mean -- let me
20 just -- it would -- might make a difference when it was a party newspaper
21 for any political party or -- I don't remember that I've ever come across
22 that name before, but I might -- might be mistaken.
23 MR. JOSSE: It is a Muslim newspaper.
24 JUDGE ORIE: A --
25 MR. JOSSE: A Muslim newspaper, is the description I've been given
1 of it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, a Muslim newspaper. Of course, Oslobodjenje is
3 sufficiently known.
4 MR. JOSSE: Apparently it's for sale in this country at the
5 moment. One could buy a copy, I'm told --
6 JUDGE ORIE: In the Netherlands.
7 MR. JOSSE: -- in the Netherlands at the moment if one chose to.
8 So I've been told.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I usually limit myself to Dutch newspapers at the
10 newsstand but I should have a better look at it next time.
11 Let me see. This is from 1998. They're both articles from 1998,
12 from what I see.
13 MR. JOSSE: I thought one was 1997. The very end of --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It says 31/12/1997 until the 3rd of January,
16 MR. JOSSE: Yes. So it's the edition that bridges the new year of
17 that -- of those two years.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I noticed at that Mr. Krajisnik would like to
19 say something about it. Mr. Krajisnik.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to make two
21 points, Your Honour. Yesterday, I received the documents from the
22 Prosecution for the first time yesterday, and it was in English, and I
23 didn't even ask for many explanations, and I would have been able to help
24 my Defence team. And I would really like to appeal to the Prosecution not
25 to object to these articles because we're talking about small parts of
2 And secondly, it is an interview given by their important figure.
3 And this witness is in a position it shed more light on these facts in
4 order for us to gain a complete picture of the -- of the overall situation
5 in Foca at the time without wishing to shift the blame or anything, just
6 to shed more light. And these are two excerpts, two short bits of text
7 from an interview with this very important figure. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I wonder, but that's a general problem why we would
9 need the newspapers to -- if the witness has any knowledge about, it we
10 could ask him about it, isn't it? So therefore I would first -- and, of
11 course, if the one who gives the interview has important information on
12 the matter, of course one could consider to call that person or I don't
13 know whether it's on your list of witnesses, but ...
14 MR. JOSSE: And I'm sure this gentleman isn't, and I'm sure
15 there's very little prospect of the Defence calling him, being realistic.
16 The -- Your Honour, very helpfully, I think last week, it may have been
17 the week before, tried to assist me with some general observations about
18 the admission of what, excuse the expression, I might call slightly
19 tenuous pieces of evidence being admitted through a particular witness. I
20 suspect that's what -- that's what the Defence have in mind here.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. JOSSE: I mean, I accept the link is relatively tenuous save
23 for the fact that this is the Defence witness who is dealing with Foca.
24 We're not planning, as far as I know, to call another witness in relation
25 to Foca.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From what I -- let me just have a look at what
2 I've got in front of me. If I look at the Oslobodjenje, I do not see any
3 single link with Foca in the part that was translated unless Ustikolina is
4 in Foca.
5 MR. JOSSE: It is in the municipality, yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: It's in the municipality. It's at these -- then I
7 take it that's -- then the other one starts with "Foca was the focal
8 point," and the answer is, "I do not know if it was the focal point."
9 That weakens the link with Foca, but let me just --
10 MR. JOSSE: Sorry, Your Honour, the next sentence strengthens it,
11 to be fair.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, not only -- but more as a -- I would say as a
13 pivotal distribution centre than rather on the events in Foca itself. Let
14 me just consult with my colleagues.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, the Chamber has decided that you should
17 address the matter in the following way: Once the witness is back in
18 court, you may examine the witness on the subject matter as we find it in
19 the -- especially in the translated parts. Let's first wait and see what
20 kind of answers we get on those questions, and you might be yourself in a
21 position to see whether it makes any sense at all to introduce these
22 documents in relation to this witness. Whether or not at another moment,
23 when fully translated, there would be good reason to present them as
24 contextual exhibits or something else is still to be seen, but let's first
25 start without specific reference to the articles and then at the end that
1 you first make up your mind as to whether it makes any sense to do it, and
2 if you think it would, then ask permission to the Chamber and we will then
3 consider whether or not we will allow you to confront the witness with
4 these articles.
5 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I should say two things in relation to
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. JOSSE: Firstly, I understand that at some point, certainly
9 not in my presence, they have been shown to the witness. So he may have
10 some knowledge of them -- of the matters because he's seen the articles.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
12 MR. JOSSE: Just if the Chamber would bear that in mind when I ask
13 the questions.
14 Secondly, at any rate, before he saw the articles I was going to
15 ask him what knowledge he had of Halid Cengic. Perhaps I could do that in
16 any event as well.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And perhaps you be very precise in asking for
18 the factual basis on which he answers the questions.
19 MR. JOSSE: Absolutely.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Because, finally, the factual basis would be that he
21 read all about it in newspaper articles then, of course, it's -- then we
22 are turning around in circles.
23 MR. JOSSE: Yes, absolutely.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Then, Mr. Tieger, I -- Mr. Josse has had
25 an opportunity to briefly add a few meant to what the Chamber just said.
1 If there would be any need from your part, I would give you an
2 opportunity. If not, I'll ask the witness to be brought into the
4 MR. TIEGER: No, there's no need, Your Honour. Thank you, though.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort the
6 witness into the courtroom.
7 Mr. Josse, you may proceed.
8 MR. JOSSE:
9 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, I want to ask you a few other matters, please.
10 First of all, do you know where Ustikolina is?
11 A. I do.
12 Q. Looking at the map of Foca - perhaps that could be put back on the
13 ELMO - would you point it out to the Chamber. It's --
14 A. Down the River Drina 12 kilometres away from here. About 12
15 kilometres away from Foca.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djordjevic, if you go a bit more up north from
17 Foca. A little bit more up even. Up, up, up. Up, up, up. I think
18 you're close to a place which is now indicated a little bit to the left
19 where at least the map says it's Ustikolina.
20 And for the record --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ustikolina is here.
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- it's full north from the town much Foca at
23 approximately 80 per cent to the north of a municipality border.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.
25 MR. JOSSE:
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Are you aware of any Muslim units having been formed there in
3 A. I don't know about that.
4 Q. My next question is this: Do you know -- does the name Halid
5 Cengic mean anything to you?
6 A. It rings a bell. I think he was a Municipal Councillor. He was a
7 neighbour from Ustikolina but I didn't know him in person. I knew him by
9 Q. In terms of the arming of Muslims, you gave earlier in your
10 testimony some personal recollections of witnessing a particular arming
11 incident from your window where you lived. Do you remember telling us
12 about that?
13 A. I do. I do.
14 Q. Being more general, do you have any other knowledge, just answer
15 this yes or no, please, of arming of Muslims prior to the war in --
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. JOSSE:
18 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Listen carefully to my question. Where does that knowledge come
21 from, something you've seen, something you've heard?
22 A. There was a colleague of mine at the surgical ward, Enes Uzunovic
23 who asked me to allow him to attend meetings of reserve police officers,
24 and he actually went off duty on those occasions. And later on other
25 citizens could see it. They would -- I mean, these people would go to the
1 meetings and they would not be armed but they would come back armed with
2 an automatic rifle or something like that. So this was the way in which
3 they were arming people at the time.
4 Q. Any knowledge of widespread arming?
5 A. No. If I may point out, this was done sporadically. People were
6 trying to make do, and they would sometimes get arms. But as to any
7 large-scale arming operations in the area of Foca, I know nothing about
8 that whatsoever.
9 Q. One last question in this regard. Do you know anything about
10 arming of Muslims that concerned Senad Safirpasic who you mentioned
11 certainly year as the person who had pronounced a rather ugly slogan who I
12 think was also known as Sadja? First of all, do you know who I'm talking
14 A. Senad Sainpasic.
15 Q. If you don't know who I'm talk about, it's my pronunciation. Do
16 you remember earlier you told us about someone you had seen on the
17 television saying something along the line duck is swimming, goose is
18 swimming, this land shall be Turkish?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What was the name of the person who said that?
21 A. Sainpasic, Saja, who was distributing weapons from across where I
22 lived. But he was a councillor at the Assembly, and he made up those
24 Q. We'll take this in stages. He had a nickname which was Saja, I
25 think you've just told us.
1 A. Yes, Saja.
2 Q. Thank you very much. Excuse my mispronunciation. Saja. You then
3 begun to tell us about his involvement with the distribution of weapons.
4 Where does your knowledge of this man's distribution of weapons come from?
5 A. I don't actually have any knowledge, anything more than I saw. I
6 could see how he was distributing those weapons. But as to who gave the
7 weapons to him or anything else, I have no idea.
8 Q. This is my fault. The person you saw distributing the weapons was
9 a person, Saja, who had also -- Saja, beg your pardon, who had also
10 pronounced this very ugly slogan that you've told us about?
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour, in my submission there is a link so
13 far as the 1998 article is concerned, the May one.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It seems that it at least gives some support,
15 although the knowledge of the witness seems not to be very extensive, then
16 nevertheless there's certainly a link which could be established.
17 MR. JOSSE: And obviously I'll seek to develop it once the witness
18 has seen the document if the Court gives leave for him to see it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but before we do so, I'd then like to ask one.
20 You told us that you saw Saja distributing arms.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You also told us that you do not know who gave the
23 arms to him, that you had no idea.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All that was done in secret. We had
25 no idea. We saw the weapons when people displayed them, showed them. I
1 suppose that the Serbs got the weapons from the JNA. And as to where the
2 Muslims got them from, I have no idea.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Not even a clue? Did you ever hear about from whom
4 he got them?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not at all.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Never read anything about it?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never read anything at all about
8 it, no articles. I just have no idea where they got the weapons from. I
9 know nothing about it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Is that true for Foca only or also wider for Bosnia
11 and Herzegovina, or do you have any idea on how Muslims, if they were
12 arming themselves, how they would distribute their weapons?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really don't know. Normal
14 citizens had no way of knowing or finding out. We didn't know how it was
15 done. I was given a rifle by some young man, and I didn't even ask him
16 where he got it. I just felt that it was a welcome gift and that was all.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djordjevic, I would like to ask you to leave the
19 courtroom just for a couple of minutes, because we'd like to discuss a
20 procedural matter which we'd prefer to discuss in your absence.
21 [The witness stood down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, there are several options. You confront
23 the witness with the newspaper article on a matter which without a
24 newspaper article he says he doesn't know anything about it. Another
25 option would be to have the newspaper article fully translated so that we
1 have the full of the context here, that you tender it into evidence,
2 because I can't imagine that many the Defence takes the position that at
3 least the testimony of Saja distributing weapons is supported by this
4 newspaper article to the extent that someone else refers to Saja as
5 inviting weapons to be taken into his house, which of course could be
6 logically understood that someone who, with weapons in his house, is in a
7 position to distribute them. So therefore it would certainly add, I would
8 say, to the credibility and reliability in respect of the testimony.
9 I would like to give you an opportunity to say what you'd prefer
10 and what you think is fair to do at this moment apart from the other
11 article. I have not spoken about that yet.
12 MR. JOSSE: Could I have one moment?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 [Defence confer]
15 MR. JOSSE: Well, I'm glad to say my client is in agreement with
16 the submission I was going make which was the latter course that
17 Your Honour was suggesting. Perhaps I could make --
18 JUDGE ORIE: The list, that you have it translated and tender it
19 in evidence, and then hear from the Prosecution whether they would object
20 in any way.
21 MR. JOSSE: Precisely. And perhaps I can make this comment, as
22 much as anything, for Mr. Krajisnik's benefit bearing in mind I'm unable
23 to speak to him now. The fact that the witness, of course, hasn't seen
24 the article, doesn't know anything about it, very much -- I appreciate
25 this is a comment, but very much supports his testimony. If he was saying
1 my testimony relies on the article, then it would -- it might impugns his
2 credibility, but he's saying the two are completely separate.
3 JUDGE ORIE: At least Saja distributing weapons within the sight
4 of the witness most likely is not taken from any newspaper article.
5 That's what is clear.
6 May I take it that -- yes.
7 MR. JOSSE: I have nothing else to add. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that the article will share the same
9 fate as this one, waiting for translation and to see whether it will be
10 tendered into evidence.
11 MR. JOSSE: That's right, Your Honour. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I take it there's hardly anything from
13 your side to be added to it. You might prepare for how to respond to
14 tendering these newspaper articles in evidence, but we could leave it up
15 to that moment, I would think.
16 MR. TIEGER: It's hard to imagine, Your Honour, how could I object
17 to the forthcoming submission before it's --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because you can't even read the articles.
19 Then the witness may be brought into the courtroom again.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your patience, Mr. Djordjevic.
22 Mr. Josse will continue his examination.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.
24 MR. JOSSE:
25 Q. I want to briefly go back and deal with one other subject that I
1 asked you about, and that was your visit to the KP Dom. Who sent you to
2 the KP Dom?
3 A. My manager told me that in the absence of the doctors who were
4 very busy that I should go to the KP Dom to tend to some wounds and to
5 help there as much as I could. It was the director of the hospital who
6 told me that.
7 Q. And have you any idea who was telling the director of the hospital
8 that someone needed to go to the KP Dom, some medical person needed to go?
9 A. Who was the director? It was Stanic Sekulic. I didn't understand
10 the question.
11 Q. I'll repeat it and rephrase it. The director had clearly been
12 told that a medical person needed to go to the KP Dom. Do you have any
13 idea who gave that instruction to the director?
14 A. I wouldn't know that. I only know that we treated everybody, both
15 in the KP Dom and in the hospital, in the same way. I don't know who
16 issued him with that order. And as for me, he sent me there as an
17 experienced paramedic.
18 Q. And when you got to the KP Dom, I don't need the name of the
19 individual, but what group was running the prison?
20 A. The prisoners were guarded by a policeman in front of every room.
21 Every group was guarded by the police.
22 Q. Were the army present in the prison?
23 A. No.
24 Q. I now want to return to the -- your evidence where we broke off.
25 You've told us that when the war started, in addition to the hospital you
1 also worked at the KP Dom. It's right as well that there came a time in
2 1992 where you were asked to attend at the battlefield; is that right?
3 A. Not at the battlefield. I was asked to tend to some dead and
4 wounded, and that's why I went into the field.
5 Q. So immediately after the fighting had ended. Let's see if we can
6 just clarify the position. Is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I want to ask you about two such incidents. The first was, I
9 think, in autumn of 1992. You went to Preljuca.
10 A. Yes, but that was in July when we're talking about Preljuca.
11 There was still fighting going on in the surrounding villages. They asked
12 me to go to Preljuca to help to identify those who had been killed. In
13 July, the Muslim army had encircled very early in the morning the Serbian
14 army, and they had killed nine soldiers. They had placed them in the
15 trenches. They torched the bodies, and that's why I was asked to go there
16 to identify the dead and collect the bodies as well.
17 If you need any more details, I can provide you with those. I'm
18 just waiting for you to tell me that I should do so.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger's on his feet.
20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'm not entirely sure how to deal with
21 this, when I say preliminarily this highlights an issue that has been
22 raised with the Defence before, this is not a subject matter appears in
23 the 65 ter. If there was an intention to develop evidence about this
24 incident and this period of time, I think it would have been appropriate
25 in some fashion to let us know.
1 I presume the second incident that counsel intends to address is
2 indeed the one identified in the 65 ter, and I will mention in advance
3 that with respect to that incident, I raise and will raise the question of
4 relevance because it appears to me that that is essentially the invocation
5 of a tu quoque defence. If it is not, I invite counsel to explain its
6 relevance otherwise.
7 So two issues. Number one, the notice issue that I remain
8 concerned about, and number two, the relevance issue with respect to the
9 other incident.
10 Let me say also that to the extent it becomes appropriate to
11 raise -- make submission was respect to this issue, we may have to ask the
12 witness to take off his headphones or to be excused while that's being
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do not know whether tu quoque is language
15 which everyone would understand, whether any discussion of that would
16 really influence any --
17 MR. JOSSE: I don't, and I was about to say I'm -- I was going to
18 say, could my learned friend elaborate on the Latin, is how I was going to
19 put it.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, perhaps to put things short, the tu quoque
21 issue is - it literally means "you, too," - is a short reference to the
22 issue that even if the opposite party to the conflict committed crimes
23 against the international humanitarian law that that does not in any way
24 justify or excuse the commission of similar offences by the other party.
25 And I think what Mr. Tieger is raising, as a matter of fact, is whether or
1 not it is relevant for the case to be confronted with such incidents.
2 And may I take it, Mr. Tieger, that you would not find it totally
3 irrelevant to -- that the Chamber learns about this as a background of the
4 conflict but that you consider it irrelevant in the sense of the tu quoque
6 MR. TIEGER: I think that's fair, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour, could I make this observation --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I tried to phrase my words in a way that it would not
11 influence the witness. If there's anything you would like to say in the
12 absence of the witness then, of course, we would ask him to leave.
13 MR. JOSSE: Well, I want to develop the matter slightly, but I
14 don't think this actually affects the witness, what I'm about to say.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. JOSSE: I don't mean this as an attack in any sense on my
17 learned friend, but do I make this observation: He makes a fair point so
18 far as the incident that the witness is presently describing is concerned.
19 But by the same token, with all due respect to him, had he forewarned the
20 Defence of the problems so far as the issue that is in the 65 ter is
21 concerned, and had he told us or me the Prosecution were going to take
22 this point, then I could have discussed it with Mr. Stewart, and --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's be very practical at this moment. Mr. Tieger
24 agreed that this kind of incidents do not lack all relevance because they
25 could be illustrative for background. Let's perhaps on the basis of that
1 possibility today allow Mr. Josse to examine the witness on it, and at the
2 same time invite the Prosecution that if in other 65 ter in other issues
3 you fine the same that you start conversations about it out of court and
4 if need be to be continued in court, and then we might come a bit closer.
5 I also think it makes more sense, Mr. Josse, that you have perhaps
6 a bit more wide and broader conversation on the tu quoque issue and to --
7 and once you finish that conversation, if you would not find a fair
8 balance between background, justification, excuse, whatever you could
9 imagine in this context that we could then continue to have -- to hear
10 oral argument on it in court.
11 Yes. Then you may proceed at this moment.
12 MR. JOSSE:
13 Q. So, I actually -- Mr. Djordjevic, we're able to continue with your
14 testimony about these nine bodies that you were sent to see in July of
15 1992. I think you've told us, and I rather think we can deal with this
16 quite shortly, in fact, that they were all Serbs. They'd all been burnt.
17 Is that right? You found --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- at least one had been killed by having his throat cut; is that
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. JOSSE: He hadn't previously said that, if that's my learned
23 friend's concern.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No. Mr. Josse, there are two issues. The first one
25 no notice in advance, and the second was about the other incident.
1 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I understood -- I understood my own decision more or
3 less to be that where this second incident had no -- where there were no
4 problems as far as giving notice it have that you'd mainly focus on that.
5 MR. JOSSE: I think -- I'm more than happy to move on. Let me
6 just do that.
7 Q. Let's move on to the incident on the 19th and 20th of December,
8 Mr. Djordjevic. Are you clear? Yes? And there had been a massacre of
9 Serb civilians in Josanica; is that correct?
10 A. In Josanica, yes.
11 Q. Point that out on the plan of the municipality which is still on
12 the ELMO.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djordjevic, just to assist you, you -- I notice
14 that you several times thought that Foca was where it's written in larger
15 letters, but the town of Foca is a -- no, it's not there. It's a little
16 bit -- little bit more to the left and a little bit more up there,
17 approximately -- the town -- if you go a little bit more down. No,
18 straight down. To the left a bit. To the left a bit. You'll find that
19 Foca is close to -- a little bit up to the north. A little bit up.
20 That's where you find the town of Foca. Do you see?
21 So if you could orient yourself on from that point.
22 MR. JOSSE:
23 Q. No, no.
24 MR. JOSSE: May I lead on this?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 MR. JOSSE:
2 Q. Go slightly north and then go east. East from there. East. No,
3 east. That's it. That's it.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the part of Josanica.
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear the witness because
7 the witness is turned away from the microphone.
8 MR. JOSSE:
9 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, say that again, please, because the interpreters
10 couldn't hear what you said. No fault of yours. You weren't near enough
11 to the microphone. So repeat what you just said.
12 A. This is the area of Josanica. This is about 18 kilometres wide.
13 The radius is about 18 kilometres high. And here you see Bjelica. There
14 are some 20 hamlets in that area.
15 Q. The bodies of those killed in this incident were brought to your
16 hospital; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember offhand how many bodies there were? Approximately
19 will do.
20 A. Sixty-three dead in the area of Josanica.
21 Q. Did that include women, children?
22 A. There were eight children, quite a lot of women. There were
23 soldiers, but also there were civilians.
24 Q. Now, among the dead was your sister, a lady called Jela Visnjik;
25 is that right?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. We'll deal with this very quickly, Mr. Djordjevic. When did you
3 first realise that your sister was one of those who had been killed in
4 this particular incident? Was it when she was brought to the hospital or
5 had someone told you in advance that your sister had been killed?
6 A. I would like to provide the Trial Chamber with some details. I
7 worked at the hospital, and I was told that Josanica had been set to fire.
8 This is the area of some 20 kilometres in radius with some 20 villages. A
9 few hours later, bodies were brought to the hospital in a lorry. Not all
10 of them were brought, but among them were my sister and my brother-in-law.
11 In the morgue, where you can find documents and videotapes, you
12 can find the footage showing that she had been killed by a knife. Her
13 throat had been slit. Her abdomen was slit apart. And my brother-in-law
14 was not in that bad condition, but he -- his head had been smashed. He
15 had laceration all over his body, and he had a bayonet wound in -- on the
17 Those were very ugly scenes, and we recorded that just to see how
18 things had happened and what mistake has been done here. This was my
19 sister who died. Like everybody else they were celebrating a religious
20 holiday. It was on St. Nikolas Day. Most of the people celebrated that
21 day. There were soldiers, they were civilians, there were people from
22 Foca, and children who all celebrated this holiday. Nobody expected such
23 a blow. The Muslim crossed Drina in boats. They surrounded the villages
24 on the sign given to them. They launched an attack, and that's what
1 My mistake is that I have not got the video and the documents with
2 me to illustrate how terrible the situation and the scene was when we
3 first saw it.
4 Q. Speaking -- you had the misfortune of seeing your sister's body in
5 the state that you've described; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And how many of the victims' of this particular incident
8 bodies did you either see yourself or did you see on a video subsequently?
9 Approximately again, Mr. Djordjevic.
10 A. Well, since I examined -- examined the bodies, within the next ten
11 days we learned that there were 63 bodies. Within ten days we found a
12 woman and two children in the forest. They had been killed because they
13 were fleeing.
14 A whole lorry full of bodies came to the morgue. The families
15 identified the bodies. They took the dead away and buried them. The most
16 important thing to know is that there were 63 bodies all together. There
17 is a book with all those names. I've given it to you, and in it you can
18 fine the statements of Muslims as well as, of those who had been captured
19 and of those eyewitnesses who managed to escape this religious holiday
20 unharmed. You have the book, don't you?
21 MR. JOSSE: And I hope Your Honours will forgive me if I ask this
22 one last question, really, by way of what in my jurisdiction we call a
23 victim impact statement.
24 Q. It's right, Mr. Djordjevic, that, tragically, your nephew, that is
25 your sister's son, in fact, in January 2003, killed his own -- his wife
1 and his own two children before jumping into the Drina; is that right?
2 Just yes or no, please.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you very much. If you would just wait there.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djordjevic, are you able to continue? Because
6 you would be now be --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I am.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand, and I see that bringing back these
9 events in your memory, of course, is a very emotional thing.
10 Now, Mr. Tieger.
11 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I don't know what time the court wishes
12 to conclude. We're clearly going to finish tonight. If you wanted to
13 take an early and brief break both for the benefit of the witness,
14 although I appreciate he's prepared to continue --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can continue.
16 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is that if we have a brief break, we
17 can't do that because the change of the tapes requires more time and
18 therefore it could never be less than 25 minutes.
19 But, Mr. Djordjevic, whenever you feel that the questions asked to
20 you are bringing back into your memory such emotional events that you have
21 difficulties in answering the question, please let me know. We'll then
22 see whether we'll have an additional break to -- yes.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed, Mr. Tieger.
25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Tieger:
2 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, good afternoon. I have just have one technical
3 question about the events you just discussed. It may have been asked, but
4 if so, I missed it, and my question is: Is it correct that the events
5 that you described took place on or about December 19th, 1992?
6 A. Yes, on the patron saint's day. St. Nikolas.
7 Q. Now, you mentioned in part of your testimony that every one of the
8 Muslims fled from Foca because they were afraid, and I think you indicated
9 that all persons fled fairly quickly for that reason. It's correct, isn't
10 it, that there were Muslim men who were confined in KP Dom who did not
11 wish to leave Foca or who had -- who were regular citizens of Foca and
12 expressed -- and expressed an interest in remaining in Foca? Isn't that
14 A. I don't know, but it is true that the Muslim inhabitants of Foca
15 left as soon as the Serbs took certain parts of town for safety reasons.
16 I'm convinced that for safety reasons they felt they had to leave, but
17 nobody chased them away. Nobody said anything, go, don't go, or whatever.
18 And there were those people at KP Dom, but I've never heard from them what
19 their wishes were or I'm not familiar with it.
20 Q. Let me show you a couple of documents, if I may. The first is an
21 English translation of 03003700, and 03003699.
22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I should note that -- and I will. Let
23 me make the previous exhibit number in the course of asking the question.
24 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, as you can see, the two documents that you have
25 before you are a request for release from detention from Enes Zekovic
1 dated 14 May 1992. That's the document which is -- bears an ERN number of
2 03003700 at the top of the English translation, and also you have the
3 document dated May -- 15 May 1992 which is a transmittal letter from
4 Acting Warden Milorad Krnojelac sending the request of detainee Enes
5 Zekovic to the Crisis Staff of the Serb municipality of Foca.
6 MR. TIEGER: The latter document, Your Honours, is P529 tab 421.
7 Q. I'm just quickly directing your attention to portion of
8 Mr. Zekovic's letter or request dated May 14th. He describes his
9 medical -- difficult medical history, describes his current condition
10 including loss of weight and indicates at the beginning of the third
11 paragraph of his request that he never left Foca and does not consider
12 doing so, explains that he never possessed weapons and asked to leave.
13 First of all, do you recall treating Mr. Zekovic at KP Dom at any
14 time? You were never referred to him, were you?
15 A. I know him in person, but I never entered his room because there
16 were no wounded in those rooms. And I didn't know that he was held there.
17 I knew Dr. Berberkic, whom I mentioned before, and another man, but I did
18 know him otherwise, but I did not attend to him at the KP Dom.
19 Q. Let me ask you to look at one additional request for release.
20 That's a document that bears the ERN on the English translation of
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, just for my clarification, the Zekovic
23 letter itself, was that in evidence already.
24 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'd like to have this assigned a number.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P974, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed, Mr. Tieger. And may I
3 take it that the next document has no number yet either, Mr. Tieger.
4 MR. TIEGER: That is correct, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Registrar will assign a number to it. That
6 will be?
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be, Your Honours, P975.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you Mr. Registrar.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. This document, Mr. Djordjevic, P975, is another request for
12 release, this time from for Mr. Pasovic. Now, I recall your earlier
13 testimony that all of the men that you say you saw or were permitted to
14 see at KP Dom were able-bodied men of military age. Mr. Pasovic at that
15 time was 66 years of age and suffering from a number of illnesses as you
16 can see, including a serious form of diabetes and a slipped disc. You
17 didn't treat him either, did you?
18 A. Unfortunately, no. It was just the manager of the KP Dom who
19 would know about this, because this is addressed to him in the first
20 place. We at the hospital could not have any knowledge of that. Had he
21 been sent to hospital I would have been able to provide medication or help
22 him, but I don't know anything about this, and this is the first time that
23 I've seen any such documents.
24 Q. If I may, let me turn your attention to a couple of people with
25 whom you worked at the hospital whom you mentioned, and I believe you
1 mentioned, among others, the names of Enes Uzunovic. He's someone you
2 worked with at the hospital; is that right?
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. Did you also work with Dr. Aziz Torlak?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I'd like to ask you to look at a list that was compiled by the
7 State Commission for Searching for Missing Persons of Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina. Actually, a couple of those lists. And the first of those
9 lists is a list of the people missing from the Foca municipality?
10 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, I believe that will need an exhibit
11 number as well.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, logic told me it would be P976.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Indeed, Your Honours.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. And, Mr. Djordjevic, the list is in alphabetical order. If you'll
16 direct your attention to the last two pages and specifically entries
17 number 695 and 708. Can you tell us whether those indicate the two people
18 or two of the people with whom you worked at the hospital, Dr. Torlak and
19 Mr. Uzunovic respectively.
20 A. They both worked at the surgical ward and I said I saw Enes
21 Uzunovic at the KP Dom, and I greeted him. And I did those rounds for
22 about ten days, and afterwards I did not go back to KP Dom so I don't know
23 about his whereabouts.
24 And Torlak was one of the first doctors to leave the surgical
25 ward, and I have never heard anything about him, about what might have
1 happened to him or anything. I was just a nurse, and I wanted to do my
2 job. And I told you what doctors I myself drove to their homes. I did
3 not accompany him anywhere. He left by himself, and what happened to him
4 I don't know.
5 Q. Did you also work with a gentleman named Mate Ivancic?
6 A. No, I didn't. We were not on the same ward, but he did work at
7 the hospital. I think -- it's a big hospital. Probably -- yes, I did
8 know him.
9 Q. And can you confirm that he is the person indicated at number 332
10 of the list before you?
11 A. Yes, Mate Ivancic. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned that you saw Enes Uzunovic at KP
13 Dom. In fact, that was apparently the last time that you saw him. Let me
14 ask you then to look at another list, and that is a list prepared by the
15 same body, the same organisation, and that is a list of people missing
16 from the Foca municipality and last seen at the KP Dom Foca.
17 MR. TIEGER: And Your Honour, that needs an additional number as
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P977, Your Honours.
21 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, we'll need to put this on the ELMO.
22 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, I indicated to you the nature of at that list. If
23 I can ask you then to turn to item number 257 on that list, and if you can
24 indicate whether that confirms the identification of the same Enes
25 Uzunovic whom you last saw at Foca and whom you also identified in the
1 list of missing that you looked at previously.
2 JUDGE ORIE: For your information, Mr. Krajisnik, the last column,
3 because there's no translation, is the month of -- I think it was
4 disappearance, but it's not on my screen any more. It's in English,
5 Mr. Krajisnik. The -- so apart from name, first name, there's a category
6 for the year of birth by makes it possible to see what the age was, then
7 what gender, what their former residence was, and then it says "The month
8 of disappearance in 1992."
9 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. And I'm sorry, Mr. Djordjevic, I didn't hear an answer from you.
12 I just wanted to know if that -- if number 257 indicates the Enes
13 Uzunovic --
14 A. Yes. Yes, that's his name.
15 Q. And if I could ask you then to look at number 253 --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I have some difficulties in what we do as
17 to see that this is his name. That's of course you often see that many
18 people have the same names.
19 Would it be true that this Enes Uzunovic would have been a little
20 bit over 30 years old at that time?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, around 30. He was a young man.
22 Around 30, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think the age, Mr. Tieger, allows us better to
24 establish whether it's the same person rather than just repeating the
25 name. Please proceed.
1 MR. TIEGER:
2 Q. And if I could -- we've already looked at Mate Ivancic on the
3 previous list. I don't know whether you had a chance to look at the date
4 of birth of -- listed for Mate Ivancic on the previous list, but he's also
5 listed on the list of people who were last seen at KP Dom at number 105,
6 and I invite you to look at the date of birth to see if that conforms to
7 your recollection of Mr. Ivancic's age at -- in 1992?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could we go to 105, I think Mr. Tieger
10 On the other list, I take it, Mr. Tieger, because Ivancic is 332
11 on this list. But if you -- yes, that list. 105.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it corresponds to his age.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. And finally with respect to this particular list, we had an
16 opportunity a few moments ago to look at the plea for release by
17 Mr. Pasovic, Mr. Ismet Pasovic, who, as you'll recall, stated that he was
18 66 years old. If I could ask you to look at this list and see if you can
19 find Mr. Pasovic identified there.
20 A. Yeah, that's his name, but I only knew him by sight, and I know
21 that he was elderly man.
22 Q. All right. Thank you. And finally, Mr. Djordjevic, you indicated
23 and discussed the fear that caused people to leave. It's correct,
24 however, that not all Muslims were able to leave Foca in time and that
25 there have been a series of exhumations that have taken place since the
1 war ended that have revealed the bodies of hundreds of Muslim men and
2 women buried in Foca; isn't that right?
3 A. I'm not at all familiar with any graves or any mass killings. I'm
4 not arguing with the fact that there were prisoners at the KP Dom, but I
5 was not involved there. I don't know what exactly happened to them. I
6 worked at the hospital. And over a ten-day period at the beginning, I
7 came to nurse their wounds, that was all. But as to what happened to them
8 afterwards, I do not know. I'm not arguing against the fact that they may
9 have gone missing.
10 I knew that this person worked, and after the war I never saw him
11 anywhere, not at the KP Dom, not anywhere else either.
12 Q. Let me ask you to take a look at one last list and see if you
13 recognise people with whom you worked at the hospital, and that's a list
14 prepared by the state commission, again, of the exhumations that were
16 JUDGE ORIE: We need a number, I take it.
17 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Did we assign a number to the last list which was not
19 copied? Yes.
20 Now, the new list would be, Mr. Registrar?
21 THE REGISTRAR: P978, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I take it that we will receive soon a copy
23 of P977, Mr. Tieger, which was just on the ELMO?
24 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, of course.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
1 MR. TIEGER:
2 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, P978 is a list of exhumations conducted within the
3 Foca municipality. As you can see, it indicates both the year of birth
4 and the gender of the person whose body was exhumed.
5 Can I ask you first to confirm that these are the names of former
6 Muslim residents of Foca, or Muslim residents of Foca who were -- whose
7 bodies were exhumed?
8 A. Are you referring to this list?
9 Q. Correct.
10 A. It's very difficult for me to talk about the names.
11 Vikoc-Papratno is some 25 kilometres away from Foca. I've never heard
12 that name before. And there are so many such examples. Trnovace,
13 Ustikolina-Borovnici, Djidjevo, those places are rather far from Foca, and
14 I'm sorry I can't answer your question with a yes because I have never
15 seen this list before. I don't know anything about that. Those
16 colleagues whom I knew by name, I told you about them. Safet Bostandzic
17 from Foca, yes, that is a person from Foca. That's number 48.
18 Q. That person was Muslim?
19 A. Safet Bostandzic, yes, she was.
20 Q. Please take a moment to look over the list and tell me if you can
21 identify anyone else whom you knew or worked with at the hospital.
22 A. Izet Kunovac, 190. I knew him. He did not work in the hospital,
23 but I knew him as a person from Foca.
24 And if you will allow me, I'd like to say this: Look at the list.
25 These are all settlements around the town of Foca. So people from Foca do
1 not necessarily have to know any of these people because these settlements
2 are in the suburbs some 20 or 30 kilometres away from the town of Foca.
3 For example, Kozja Luka is 25 kilometres away from Foca. That's why it's
4 very difficult for me to tell you anything about the names that I see
6 Q. Very well.
7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour if --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, would it make any sense -- I don't know
9 if you want to pursue the matter, just to draw the attention of the
10 witness to those names on the list whose -- are related to Foca as being
11 a -- Serifa Bostandzic on the first page, a lady of some 80 years old, I
12 take it. 48, number 48 -- 46, I am sorry.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew her and she was from Foca,
14 but I don't know anything about her lot.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. And what about --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps on the third page, 166, 167 -- no, 167, 168.
18 On the third page almost at the bought many under 167 and 168 we find
19 Hasan Kamenica which must have been an approximately 80 years old man.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know anything about these
21 two by the name of Kamenica.
22 MR. TIEGER:
23 Q. What about Smail Hajric at number 141? Approximately 60 years old
24 at the time of his death.
25 A. He's from Foca, but I don't remember having seen him a lot or I
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 don't remember that much about him. I know, however, that he was from
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, do you have any specific names of persons
4 who worked in the hospital or --
5 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour. I would not be directing the
6 witness's attention to a specific person.
7 Q. Let me just finish with the list rather than go through every
8 person who was from Foca by asking if all the people on the list whom
9 we've look at specifically and who were from Foca and whom you knew, or
10 were known of, were all Muslim.
11 A. Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I take it that somewhere there is
13 information about courses of their -- or at least the circumstances under
14 which -- I mean, exhumation, of course, could be anything. It could be
15 mass graves, individual graves. I do not know whether there is any
16 additional information related to this list which we now see for the first
18 MR. TIEGER: And I -- clearly, it doesn't have to be done in the
19 present of the witness. I would be --
20 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no. It's just for the edification of the
21 Chamber. I take it the witness could tell us nothing about these details.
22 MR. TIEGER: Yes. And we'll get that information to the Court as
23 soon as possible. Thank you, Your Honour. I have no additional
25 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just wondering. I think we could continue and
1 most likely finish for the day. I take it that technical staff and
2 interpreters would also not mind if we continue, which would certainly
3 would not lead us to 7.00.
4 Judge Hanoteau has one or more questions for you.
5 Questioned by the Court:
6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: You have spoken about the facts that have
7 preceded the war and that concerned the theft of medical supplies and --
8 supplies and -- and other things from the hospital; is that correct? Did
9 you talk about that?
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] How did you know or how did you
12 suppose that the theft was committed by the Muslims who were stocking up
13 in preparation of the future war?
14 A. I said that in the house of Emina Basic I found 25 kilos of cotton
15 wool from her freezer. She was taking that from the hospital day in, day
16 out, and that's how she secured supplies that are not necessary for a
18 People just prepared for a possible war, because a few days before
19 the beginning of April one could feel it in the air that there would be a
20 war. This was what was happening at the time in the hospital.
21 I told you how many victims there were, and I told you about the
22 tension amongst the population. Everybody feared everybody else and
23 nobody trusted nobody. You heard how weapons were distributed. We
24 received weapons. I don't even know how we received it.
25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir. How
1 did you find the 25 kilos of cotton wool in the house of Emina Basic? How
2 come you found that? Was she a friend of yours? Was she a relative of
3 yours? How come you went to her house?
4 A. The apartment was in one part of Foca, in Gornja Polje, which is
5 one kilometre away from my apartment. When the citizens returned to their
6 homes, they asked me to come to her house and they told me, "Come and see
7 what your colleague had in her house." We collected that cotton wool and
8 we brought it back to the hospital. That was the method that we used I
9 personally went in the car to collect the cotton wool, but before that I
10 was informed by telephone to come and do that.
11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And where was that woman at the
12 moment this was happening?
13 A. She had left the town. All the Muslims had already left the town.
14 And when the Serbs returned to their houses then we found everything in
15 the houses. In my own apartment I found that my apartment was abolished.
16 My jewellery had been stolen. I told you what happened. I don't want to
17 dwell upon that too much.
18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Was there anything else about the
19 25 kilos of cotton wool? Was there any other examples? Was there
20 anything else?
21 A. Yes. Mandza who was our paramedic had a hundred ampoules of
22 ammonia for which the pharmacist later on said that this ammonia had --
23 could be used for nothing else but for water supply poisoning. What he
24 intended to do, I don't know. In any case, we found a hundred ampoules of
25 ammonia in his house.
1 There was tension among the Serbs and among the Muslims, so these
2 things happened. And one more piece of information, if you will allow me.
3 646 Serbs were killed, but you also heard and you saw the list that there
4 were killings on the other side as well. But this was taking turns and --
5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. My second
6 question: When it comes to KP Dom, before these events was that a prison,
7 a real prison?
8 A. It was a prison with a lot of prisoners. There were women
9 prisoners, and there were all sorts of criminals in the KP Dom. It is a
10 big prison. It has a reputation all over Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is
11 called KP Dom Foca.
12 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Had you been inside the prison
13 even before the war, before all these things happened?
14 A. I entered as a paramedic. Whenever we needed something as a
15 hospital and if the KP Dom needed something, we could exchange medical
16 supplies. I had some friends and colleagues who worked in KP Dom, both
17 Muslims and Serbs. Also, there were workshops, and those workshops made
18 some things for the hospital. That's how I became familiar with the KP
20 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And the paramedics would go to KP
21 Dom to --
22 A. No. There was a surgery over there before the war, their own
23 surgery. I was the open one who went there as an experienced paramedic
24 when the war broke out because the surgery had stopped working by then.
25 My director sent me there to provide certain services to the Muslims, and
1 this is the truth.
2 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] At the KP Dom, at the moment when
3 the war broke out, were there criminals who were not Muslims, who were not
4 criminals of war, who were, so to speak, normal clients of the KP Dom?
5 A. When the conflict -- conflicts broke out and when the first batch
6 was incarcerated in the KP Dom, I mean ordinary citizens, the former
7 prisoners had broken out of the KP Dom and they never returned to the KP
8 Dom. From then on, there were no longer, so to speak, old, normal
9 prisoners in the KP Dom.
10 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few questions for you as well. You told us
12 just that you were the only one who went to KP Dom as an experienced
13 paramedic. Should I understand this, that, apart from you, no paramedic
14 went -- and that apart from you no doctors went there?
15 A. Yes, they did. In the absence of doctors who were very busy at
16 the hospital, I would occasionally be sent there. But there was a doctor
17 there, Milovan Dobrilovic, who treated people. I don't know any of the
18 details. I don't know when he went and how he went. I know he was the
19 doctor who went there.
20 And when people needed a nurse's care, I would be sent to provide
21 them with that, and that lasted for a period of ten days or so.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dobrilovic, was he --
23 A. Milovan Dobrilovic.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Was he Serb, Croat, Muslim?
25 A. He was a Montenegrin. He was an X-ray specialist, and he worked
1 in Foca.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And you don't know who sent him there? Because an
3 X-ray specialist is, well, for general practices.
4 A. Of course they did not need an X-ray specialist, but he did have a
5 medical degree and he could assist them. Even paramedics could assist
6 people during the war. And it doesn't -- it didn't really matter whether
7 the person was a surgeon or a general practitioner. Everybody who has a
8 degree in medicine could help people. But only those doctors were sent
9 who were not busy at the moment in the hospital, and usually all the
10 doctors were busy and they were involved in other tasks at the hospital.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One other question about -- where you said the
12 stolen ammonia, the ampoules of ammonia, you said that they were there in
13 order to poison drinking water. What made you conclude that that was the
14 person -- the purpose of taking it and keeping it?
15 A. May I answer, please?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 A. I did not say that the intention was to poison the water supply.
18 When we found the ammonia, we asked a pharmacist, and the pharmacist told
19 us that this was an agent which is normally used to poison water supplies.
20 Whether that was the intention of that person or not, I -- I don't know.
21 This is what we were told by an expert, a pharmacist whom we asked for
22 advice and information.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So when you said, "And we afterwards realised through
24 some experts that it was intended for poisoning the water supplies," that
25 is because that expert told you that ammonia could be used or usually was
1 used for poisoning water supplies?
2 A. He only told us that such a quantity of ammonia could serve to
3 poison a huge quantity of drinking water. That's all he told us.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was ammonia easy available where you lived?
5 A. There are medical cabinets in all the departments and they are
6 locked, but all the paramedics could access them. There is no ammonia in
7 the hospital. Ammonia can be found in pharmacies and in some
9 Where did this ammonia come from? Why this person collected it in
10 such a huge quantity I don't know. I could speculate, but that wouldn't
11 be fair. I don't know. I for one am not sure why he kept it.
12 I'm sure about the dressing material because everybody wanted to
13 stock a certain quantity of dressing material in case they were wounded or
14 somebody was wounded so that they could help each other.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I need the assistant of the parties at this moment.
16 Ammonia, from what I understand, but English is not my native language, is
17 a fluid, what may be used for medical purposes as well, but is used for
18 cleaning wood if you want to paint it or which can be achieved -- or which
19 can be bought at every corner, at every shop where they -- if that's a
20 wrong understanding of what ammonia is, I'd like to be informed about it.
21 MR. JOSSE: At the risk of being only marginally fluent, as a
22 criminal lawyer, ammonia is something that my clients occasionally throw
23 in people's eyes in the case of armed robberies. That's what I know it
25 JUDGE ORIE: That's a very focused knowledge of -- I knew that.
1 The ammonia I have in mind you shouldn't drop it in anyone's eyes or you
2 shouldn't drink it because that's rather dangerous. But nevertheless if
3 you're preparing for painting then use it. It smells horribly. But
4 perhaps Mr. Tieger knows --
5 MR. JOSSE: I said only marginally, because beyond that I really,
6 actually can't help very much, in all honesty.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger do you have any idea of what ammonia is.
8 MR. TIEGER: I don't want to reduce this to a level of, sort of,
9 familiar discussion, but, okay, if asked it's that astringent, smelling
10 substance that is in quite a few household cleaning materials, in my
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At least we have a similar idea of what ammonia
13 is. But we'll check it. I hardly dare to ask the interpreters to assist
14 us. Do I known what was the word used by the witness in his own language.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Ammonia, a cleaning liquid, strong smell.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That seems approximately the same as I had in
18 Then my next question -- I apologise because it was unclear to me.
19 You said when the Serbs returned to their houses, when you described how
20 you found the cotton wool, and you said, "When I returned to my house,"
21 when did you actually leave, because "return" suggests that you left.
22 A. I said that on the 7th there were barricades. I went to the
23 hospital, and I never returned until the moment Foca was liberated. I was
24 in the hospital all this time. When the Serbian forces took over all
25 parts of Foca, then we left the hospital and went back to our apartments.
1 Ten days later I returned to my apartment and I realised that it had been
2 completely demolished. And the same was true of other houses.
3 Wherever there was danger, people would leave their apartments and
4 go to a safer place, a kilometre or half a kilometre away from their place
5 to find shelter, a temporary shelter that is.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. I have no further
8 Have the answers of the Bench -- we are close to the place where
9 the tape ends, have the questions from the Bench raised any --
10 MR. TIEGER: Just one, Your Honour.
11 Further cross-examined by Mr. Tieger:
12 Q. Mr. Djordjevic, didn't you yourself have a large quantity of
13 medical supplies in your home that turned up missing when you returned?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And can you describe at least some of the items that were missing
16 from your home, some of the medical supply items that you had that were
17 missing from your home?
18 A. Let me just to tell you briefly. I used to teach first aid in
19 schools and in local communes. Even today if you came to my home you
20 would find bags full of medical supplies, and I'm always prepared to
21 extend first aid at any moment.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Djordjevic, the question was -- not why you would
23 have such medical supplies at home but whether you could describe to us,
24 tell us what it is.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gauzes, dressing material, a
1 syringe, a pain-killer, and a bag featuring a Red Cross.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.
3 MR. JOSSE: That's all, Your Honour, thank you.
4 MR. JOSSE: The only question I want to ask arises from that
6 JUDGE ORIE: Do so, but either we have to do it either quickly or
7 we'll have to need a break and have to --
8 MR. JOSSE: Well -- and there is one procedural matter,
9 Your Honour, though it is not essential to deal with it today, perhaps
10 it's desirable.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Let's then -- if you put the question to
12 the witness.
13 Re-examined by Mr. Josse:
14 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
15 Q. The question is, when you discovered some of your property at the
16 makeshift ambulance station which was by the Elektrodistribucija, was any
17 of that medical supplies from your home?
18 A. I found boxes with my name on them, Slavko Djordjevic, also Rado
19 Djordjevic, so I realised that those were my boxes that contained my
20 medical supplies.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think the witness said that already --
22 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- that it was his material.
24 What you said, Mr. Josse -- first of all, let's --
25 Mr. Djordjevic, this ends your testimony in this court. I'd like
1 to thank you very much for coming, and the Chamber fully understands that
2 the events that you described, that it was not easy for you and it was --
3 that these are really emotional things and the Chamber therefore highly
4 appreciates that you came and answered questions of the parties and of
5 this Court. Thank you very much, and I hope that you'll have a safe trip
6 home again.
7 Madam Usher, could you escort the witness out the courtroom.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, if you say that the procedural matter --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- doesn't have to be dealt with today because we have
12 to reconvene for that.
13 MR. JOSSE: It's actually a request of the Prosecution; it can
14 definitely wait.
15 JUDGE ORIE: But let's -- we'll then also deal with the exhibits
16 at a later stage because I would like to avoid to run out of time and have
17 that not done as it should be done.
18 MR. JOSSE: I want the map exhibited, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand, but let's deal with that. It takes
20 us three minutes, but since we might have only one minute left, we'll do
21 that when we resume. And that would be next Monday, I take it, because
22 there's no witness any more this week. Next Monday, the 7th of November in
23 Courtroom I.
24 I see, Mr. Krajisnik, that you wanted to address the Chamber.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just three seconds, please.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You have promised me that I will be
3 able to address the Chamber. Therefore, I would kindly ask you to allow
4 me to do so in a very near future, and that is all.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Near future. Monday would be fine? Okay. Then
6 we'll not reconvene for that purpose only. I had understood that it would
7 be announced when -- whether and when Mr. Krajisnik wanted to address the
8 Chamber. We'll give you an opportunity to do so that next Monday.
9 We will adjourn until next Monday, 7th of November, 9.00 in the
10 morning, Courtroom I.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.13 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day
13 of November, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.