1 Monday, 7 November 2005
2 [The accused entered court]
3 [Open session]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Mr. Stewart, is the Defence ready to call its next witness?
11 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And it would be no protective measures, I take it.
13 MR. STEWART: That's correct, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: And that's Mr. Milincic.
15 MR. STEWART: No, it isn't, actually, Your Honours. It's
16 Mr. Antic.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm sorry.
18 MR. STEWART: I'm happy to say, I don't think there are any
19 protective measures for Mr. Milincic either.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No. I mixed up the --
21 MR. STEWART: Mr. Milincic is the next witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, there's one small matter that I may
24 raise at this opportunity. Mr. Harmon has discussed with Mr. Josse the
25 stipulation to the positions of the gentleman Hadzo Efendic, which was the
1 issue with the witness Stavnjak, and I'm informed that the Defence is
2 willing to stipulate that he was appointed vice-president of the
3 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 25th of February, 1993, and he
4 was also appointed to the position of ambassador of Bosnia and Herzegovina
5 in Austria on the 4th of October, 1993.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's then on the record, exact dates and
7 positions: Vice-president of BiH, 25th of February, 1993; and ambassador
8 of BH in Austria, 4th of October, 1993.
9 MR. STEWART: The Defence does agree with both those points, Your
11 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then the witness may be brought into the
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Antic, if I'm right --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Antic, before you give evidence in this Court,
18 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
19 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
20 the truth. The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher. May I
21 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
22 WITNESS: BOZIDAR ANTIC
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Antic. You'll first be
2 cross-examined by Mr. Stewart, counsel for the Defence.
3 Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
4 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour. Strictly, I think I'm going to
5 leave the cross-examination to the Prosecution.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. STEWART: I'll do it a milder way.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It's Monday morning. I hope --
9 MR. STEWART: Indeed. Your Honour, since I'm doing what I'm
10 doing, I was proposing to go fairly quickly through some of the early
11 material and lead. Of course, if at any point the Prosecution feel I'm
12 overstepping the mark, well, I'm confident they will say so.
13 Examined by Mr. Stewart:
14 Q. Mr. Antic, can you hear me all right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You were born on -- well, your name is Bozidar Antic?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you were born on the 25th of November, 1957, in Sarajevo, and
19 you have a degree in economics from Sarajevo University; is that correct?
20 A. It is.
21 Q. You were previously a member of the Communist Party, although you
22 were never a very active member; is that correct?
23 A. It is. I was a formal member, as most young people back then.
24 Q. And up to 1990, and I'm really talking about time of the
25 multi-party elections in November 1990, you lived in an apartment with
1 your wife and then two very young children, in a part of Sarajevo called
2 Dobrinja 5 and you worked in Kiseljak, which is also in the area of
3 Sarajevo, as the general manager of a successful textile company called
4 Globus. Is all that I've just said correct?
5 A. It is.
6 Q. And is it right - and please correct if it isn't - that the ethnic
7 composition of the population in Kiseljak was about 50 per cent Croats,
8 about 40 to 45 per cent Muslims, and the balance were mainly Serbs, and
9 then others, which means people who would describe themselves as
10 Yugoslavs, for example? Is that also correct?
11 A. It is. The figures seem to be correct. At any rate, the majority
12 population was Croat.
13 Q. And very briefly, because you were there, how would you describe
14 to the Trial Chamber that the Croats in Kiseljak conducted themselves on
15 the local political level?
16 A. You mean prior to the elections?
17 Q. Yes. And perhaps I can just nudge it this way: Having regard to
18 the fact that the Croats did constitute about 50 per cent, how did they
19 conduct themselves in local politics in Kiseljak in the context of their
20 having 50 per cent of the population?
21 A. I can tell you very briefly that up until the multi-party
22 elections, everything worked in more or less the same way as everywhere
23 else in Bosnia and Herzegovina. There was the so-called national key
24 enshrined in the communist system, and up until then, everything worked as
1 Q. And did the -- from your observation, did the Croats give
2 appropriate recognition and weight to the Muslim and Serb and other
3 elements of the population in Kiseljak?
4 A. I never noticed anything amiss during that time. Everything was
5 more or less normal.
6 Q. Did that change in any noticeable way after the November 1990
8 A. I didn't get involved or know much about the internal
9 power-sharing agreements at the municipal level, but a certain emotional
10 charge could be felt, that is to say, the victory of the national parties,
11 and you could see it everywhere, even though there were no visible
12 problems of any sort, no tangible problems.
13 Q. Was there a specific effect on you personally of the outcome of
14 the 1990 multi-party elections?
15 A. I never felt it until the point in time when I started being
16 criticised by some parties, in terms of them claiming that I was
17 unsuitable for the post that I held.
18 Q. Could you -- when you say you started being criticised by some
19 parties, could you be as specific as you can about who it was that was
20 criticising you.
21 A. First of all, HDZ, through the media and at press conferences that
22 they had at the party level, at the level of Bosnia and Herzegovina, I
24 Q. And was there any individual in particular who, on behalf of the
25 HDZ, was making that criticism of you?
1 A. I remember the first meeting of the BH Presidency, the newly
2 elected one, and Mr. Kljuic was present at that meeting, Stjepan Kljuic,
3 who was the member of the BH Presidency, and he raised that issue.
4 Q. And what was his criticism of you?
5 A. It was not really a direct reference to my name as such, but they
6 kept saying that the new authorities would do all they can in order to put
7 a stop to the misuse or abuse taking place within the framework of the
8 privatisation process, and they quoted one example, and of course that was
9 the example of my company, the company that I was the manager of.
10 Q. So Globus was at that time undergoing, was it, or about to
11 undergo, a process of privatisation?
12 A. Globus went through the privatisation process, and it was one of
13 the rare companies that went through this process with no intentions
14 whatsoever, and everybody was satisfied at the end of it.
15 Q. Why did you, as it seems you did, why did you understand what was
16 being said about the company, not naming you, as a criticism of you?
17 A. Well, they kept referring to the management of the company, the
18 manager, but they did not actually refer to my name as such, but it was an
19 extremely veiled reference, I mean, and also it wasn't difficult for
20 people to understand.
21 Q. Do you mean that it was an extremely veiled reference or that it
22 was a thinly veiled reference?
23 A. Perhaps thinly veiled reference. It was clear to all who was
25 Q. And what was it that was being suggested as the misuse or abuse
1 within the framework of the privatisation process?
2 A. The overall context of the discussion was about the new
3 authorities putting a stop to any misuse of state property. No details
4 were mentioned, but it was considered that the privatisation process at my
5 company basically meant that shares went into my own pocket and the
6 pockets of my friends. But it was not true at all.
7 Q. Was there any pressure to -- of any sort to remove you from your
9 A. Yes. At the local level, there were indirect suggestions to that
10 effect, but to a considerable extent, there was also some protection of my
11 person and my achievements, and there were very many Croats who actually
12 resisted that pressure.
13 Q. Well, let's start, then: Who was -- well, when did the pressure
14 to remove you from your post begin?
15 A. Straight after the election results were published.
16 Q. And who was bringing that pressure?
17 A. Well, I've already mentioned that. Officially, it was done within
18 other statements for the press, for the media, within the framework of the
19 HDZ for Bosnia and Herzegovina, and at that particular meeting of the
20 Presidency, of the BH Presidency. And what happened on the ground was
21 just a reflection of all that.
22 Q. Was it only the Croat leadership in the HDZ who criticised your
23 company and you indirectly, or did anybody else also make such a
25 A. It was just the HDZ leadership at those press conferences, and at
1 the Presidency meeting, the SDA leadership joined in, but probably out of
2 some kind of solidarity. I mean, Alija Izetbegovic and -- they also said
3 that any misuse of state property should be stopped or prevented.
4 Q. So who gave you support in your position in relation to that
6 A. First and foremost, staff. Many employees signed a petition and
7 they addressed it to the media and all the parties, saying that what was
8 being done was unreasonable and based on lies.
9 Q. Were you offered any support from outside the company?
10 A. Yes. There were quite a few people who individually lent me their
11 support, and who came to me asking if I needed any assistance or anything
13 Q. Apart from individual support, were you offered any support from
14 within the Serb political community?
15 A. After all that, since it was a hyped-up media event, as it were,
16 for a certain period of time, I was invited to get in touch with the Serb
17 Democratic Party, in case I felt it was necessary, and to give an account
18 of the situation.
19 Q. First of all, can you remember who issued that invitation to you?
20 A. Some of my friends who were in closer contact with Dr. Karadzic,
21 or at least who knew him, since I didn't.
22 Q. Did you then establish or have some sort of contact in relation to
23 this matter with Dr. Karadzic himself?
24 A. Yes. On one occasion, I went to see him at his surgery in
1 Q. Are you able to put some sort of -- best you can do, some sort of
2 date on that visit to Dr. Karadzic's surgery?
3 A. I can't really recall the date after such a long time, but I think
4 it was at some point in December, after the elections which took place by
5 the end of November. So I think it was in December 1990, I suppose. Yes.
6 Q. And you met Dr. Karadzic personally? That's correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was there anybody else from the Bosnian Serb leadership present at
9 that meeting?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And keeping it reasonably briefly, please, Mr. Antic, what was the
12 discussion -- I'm assuming there was some discussion; what was the
13 discussion between you and Dr. Karadzic at that meeting?
14 A. We had a very brief discussion only and exclusively about my
15 position back in Kiseljak, and I explained what the situation was and I
16 explained who I was, what I did, why I did what I did, and why I was being
17 attacked. And I convinced him -- or at least I tried to convince him that
18 all those stories and rumours were totally untrue. Dr. Karadzic asked me,
19 "Well, what do you expect me to do? How do you think I can help you?
20 Would you like to stay at that company or would you like to leave or
21 what?" And I said that I would perhaps only like him to try and talk to
22 the HDZ people and that, for the time being, I preferred to stay on, and
23 that I would wait and see and then maybe get in touch again in case there
24 were any further problems.
25 And I made my own private decision to stay a little while longer
1 and then actually leave.
2 Q. Did you, at the end of that meeting, did you leave Dr. Karadzic
3 with the understanding that you were going to try to stay at the company
4 for the long run?
5 A. That was a conclusion of some sort, but we, of course -- I didn't
6 know for how long. My decision was to try and await the annual reports so
7 that everybody could know what the state of the company was when I left
8 and not for other people to be judges of that, through press conferences
9 or anything of the sort.
10 Q. And the end of the financial year for Globus was the 28th of
11 February; is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Just jumping ahead for a moment on that: Did you in the end stay
14 until just after the end of the financial year on the 28th of February,
15 put through the accounts for that year, and then, very shortly after that
16 date, leave the company?
17 A. I stayed on until the 28th of February. I presented the annual
18 accounts. All that was approved, with a number of my staff I went out to
19 lunch and we had a celebratory lunch, as it were, and a farewell one, and
20 then I left.
21 Q. Going back to your meeting with Dr. Karadzic, then, was there any
22 discussion or suggestion at that meeting with Dr. Karadzic about your
23 becoming politically involved with the Serb community or the SDS?
24 A. No, absolutely not. We discussed my case, only my case, nothing
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Did you subsequently learn whether or not the SDS leadership had
2 in fact spoken to anybody to try to -- on your behalf in relation to
4 A. Yes. I learned subsequently and I felt that the pressure was
5 subsiding. There were no longer attacks like at the beginning. But I was
6 clear that it was time for me to withdraw.
7 Q. Do you -- did you learn who had spoken to whom to give you that
9 A. Yes. Rajko Dukic, the president of the Executive Board, I
10 suppose, of the party, who was in charge of the inter-party staff issues,
11 that's the person I met subsequently. He told me that he had spoken to
12 Stjepan Kljuic about that.
13 Q. When you say Rajko Dukic, the president of the Executive Board of
14 the party, just to make it absolutely clear for the record, that's the
15 SDS, isn't it?
16 A. Yes, of course.
17 Q. Did he tell you anything about his conversation or conversations
18 with Mr. Kljuic?
19 A. Yes. He interpreted his conversation with Kljuic jokingly, and he
20 said, when he asked them how come that you were attacking Antic, Kljuic
21 answered, "The lad is good. There's nothing wrong with him. But is it
22 normal for a Serb to be a director of a company in the town where Croats
23 are a majority?" That was the only reason why I was attacked. No other
24 issues were at stake, either privatisation or anything else; that was the
25 only reason. I understood that as a joke, but unfortunately, something
1 that was practiced.
2 Q. Did you understand what you've just told the Trial Chamber to
3 reflect some wider approach of Mr. Kljuic and his colleagues as opposed to
4 just something directed against you and your company?
5 A. Yes. I understood that as a wider approach. From the very
6 beginning, I knew that it was not personal, I was just chosen as a good
8 Q. Example of what?
9 A. They had to start with somebody on that road, and maybe the best
10 example would have been Sarajevo.
11 Q. You say they had to start with somebody on that road. Can you
12 perhaps help the Trial Chamber with what you mean by "that road"?
13 A. I do not want to speculate, but the road was for the Croatian
14 companies to be given to Croatian directors. I'm talking about the
15 economy, the sphere of life where I spent most of my time. When they
16 selected their Croatian directors, they could probably influence the life
17 and the economy, which would not have been possible if that was not the
18 case, which of course is not true.
19 Q. As you were continuing to work at the company up until the end of
20 February 1991, as you describe, was there an issue relating to your
21 apartment that you needed to resolve?
22 A. Nobody raised that issue particularly, but there was a law in
23 place which said that if you were to acquire tenancy rights, you had to
24 spend ten years in a company. At that time I had been with the company
25 nine years and a half. I was six months short and I -- there was a risk
1 that I might lose my tenancy right. Nobody actually mentioned that, but I
2 had that in mind and I went to the Municipal Assembly of Ilidza to try and
3 iron out, so to speak, those six months and secure the tenancy rights for
4 me, for the apartment where I was residing.
5 Q. Did you get it sorted out satisfactorily?
6 A. Yes. I went to the Municipal Assembly of Ilidza --
7 Q. It doesn't matter about the details, Mr. Antic. If the answer is
8 yes, you've got it --
9 A. Yes. I sorted it out. Yes, you're right. I got it sorted out.
10 Q. Did you ask for or receive any help from anybody in the SDS in
11 sorting out that issue about your apartment?
12 A. No. There was no need for that. This was a legal matter.
13 Q. Did the -- anybody in the SDS even know that you had this problem
14 to sort out and that you were sorting it out?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did the -- anybody in the SDS know before you left the company at
17 the end of February that that was the date when you were leaving and that
18 was the date that you left?
19 A. No. No. That was my personal decision and that was my personal
21 Q. Did you have -- your staying in the company until the 28th of
22 February to get the accounts done for that year, was that based on any
23 underlying concerns about your own personal position?
24 A. No. My conscience was clear. The company was in good shape.
25 Everybody was happy. I had a fantastic relationship with everybody there
1 at the time, and later on, so I only wanted to withdraw honourably from
2 that position and not to have my name smeared in any way after that.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I take it that you've finished with the
5 MR. STEWART: Yes, I have, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I have one additional question.
7 The Ilidza Municipal Assembly, was there any party with a
8 majority? Could you give us an idea on how Croats, Muslims, Serbs, were
9 represented in that Municipal Assembly.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Croats had a minority there. I
11 don't know the percentage. And the Serbs and the Muslims had a very close
12 percentage, very -- almost equal percentage. I don't know how much again.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. Who replaced you when -- at Globus when you left?
17 A. I was replaced by my former assistant for finances, Mehmed
19 Q. And he was a Muslim; is that correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is there any particular reason that you were -- well, he was your
22 deputy, we can see that. But was there any particular reason why he got
23 the job?
24 A. The only reason was the fact that the people from the company
25 managed to elect him internally as somebody who was familiar with the job.
1 They did not want anybody, be it a Croat or a Muslim, who was not familiar
2 with the job. So people from the company managed to win the battle with
3 the politics and managed to have their own person elected, because he knew
4 the job.
5 Q. And do you still have relations and contacts with former
6 colleagues at Globus from that time?
7 A. Yes, of course. We have remained in very good relations, and I
8 can say that when I was with that company, this was one of the best
9 periods of my life.
10 Q. Now, the next bit, Mr. Antic, I'm going to put a number of points
11 to you, so if you'd just listen carefully and then tell the Trial Chamber
12 whether you can confirm what I'm saying to you. Is this right: You then
13 went to work in Ilidza, which is a separate municipality from Kiseljak,
14 you went to Ilidza at the invitation of the local political leadership
15 there, where you became minister for commerce or business; you started
16 your own business there in Ilidza straight away, with two partners, in the
17 manufacture and retail of clothing; your business was called Nikola's and
18 it now is, but largely in Belgrade as a development, it is now a very
19 successful business; you have 24 retail outlets in Belgrade and it is a
20 flourishing concern stemming from that business you started in 1991; that
21 a number of employees came from Globus, which was in the textile business,
22 to work for you in Ilidza, especially those, not surprisingly, who lived
23 nearer to Ilidza; most of them were Muslims, but they also included some
24 Serbs and possibly a small number of Croats; and that you yourself had no
25 particular problems with any of those workers from any ethnic group; and
1 at the time that you moved to Ilidza, you remained throughout living in
2 the apartment in Dobrinja 5.
3 That's quite a long chunk. Please say if you've got any doubts
4 about that. But are you able to confirm the correctness of everything
5 that I have just put to you?
6 A. Everything is correct. I would only say that this was not a
7 concern; it was a private company. It was not a conglomerate of
8 companies, it was just a private company. Everything else is correct.
9 Q. Yes. Just to clarify that: What I was intending to put to you or
10 what was implicit, of course it started off in 1991 in Ilidza and you're
11 saying, are you, it started off, of course, as a small concern; it's
12 become, over more than a decade, it's now become - but moved to Belgrade -
13 a very large concern; correct? Not a multinational, but a large, thriving
14 business; is that correct?
15 A. Well, yes. Yes. It is correct.
16 Q. So it was early March 1991 when you moved to work in Ilidza; is
17 that right?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Did you receive any approach or contact after you moved to Ilidza
20 from the SDS leadership?
21 A. Yes. After maybe a month or a month and a half, I was invited
22 from the office of Dr. Karadzic. I got in contact with him because he did
23 not know that I had already come to Ilidza. He asked me to come and have
24 a conversation with him.
25 Q. Did you take up his invitation?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And where did you go -- you went to see him, did you,
3 Dr. Karadzic?
4 A. Yes. As far as I can remember, it was in the same place; in his
5 surgery, in his office.
6 Q. So when you went to see him, are we in April 1991 or thereabouts?
7 A. Yes, thereabouts.
8 Q. When you went to see Dr. Karadzic, was there any other member of
9 the SDS leadership present at the meeting?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Again, as briefly, but so the Trial Chamber can fully understand
12 what happened, what was the discussion between you and Dr. Karadzic on
13 that occasion?
14 A. Dr. Karadzic didn't know that I had left the company. He was
15 familiar with the case, though. He learnt that and he told me that his
16 thought about my engagement in the municipality was beyond my capabilities
17 -- below my capabilities.
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And he asked me if I would fill a
20 ministerial place, as there was an opening on the SDS quota, and he asked
21 me if I would consider that position.
22 MR. STEWART:
23 Q. And to clarify, not that I believe it's any great mystery, but
24 just to make it clear for all concerned: We're talking about the Bosnia
25 and Herzegovina government, of course, at this time, and when you refer to
1 the quota, you're referring to something which is a reflection of the
2 power-sharing agreements at a national level; is that right?
3 A. That is right.
4 Q. So did he offer you a specific ministerial position?
5 A. Yes. It was a minister without a portfolio, in the BiH
7 Q. What was your response, Mr. Antic?
8 A. My response was that I would give it some thought and that I would
9 get back to him. And I also told him that I would rather go into private
10 business and that any solution that would exclude my own private business
11 would not be acceptable for me. So I told him that if I could run my
12 private business in parallel with that position that he was offering, then
13 I would give it a serious thought. If that was not possible, then I
14 wouldn't even think about it. And then Dr. Karadzic told me that it would
15 be possible and that if I decided to accept his proposal and that if I
16 realised that it was not possible for me to be a minister and to control
17 my private business, that I should then resign, that it is only -- it was
18 only fair for me to do that.
19 Q. And by the time you left that meeting on that day, what was your
20 own personal thinking? Were you steering towards the positive on
21 accepting this position or the other direction? Where were you on the
22 spectrum yourself?
23 A. I was rather surprised by that invitation, because I had not
24 participated in all those things, and that's why I was surprised. I
25 needed time to talk to my friends, to my family, and to talk to myself,
1 actually, whether to accept that position or not. I was in two minds.
2 Q. Did Dr. Karadzic explore in that discussion with you your own
3 political views?
4 A. No, absolutely not. We did not discuss that. He just offered me
5 the position and he wanted to hear my response. That's all we discussed.
6 Q. Would he have been aware of your broad political views without
7 needing to ask you?
8 A. I don't know. He may have been. I suppose so. I don't know. I
9 can't give you a precise answer as to what he did know, what he didn't
10 know. In any case, we never discussed that issue.
11 Q. Now, at this time, it's correct, is it: You were not a member of
12 the SDS?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Have you ever been a member of the SDS?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Have you ever been asked to join the SDS?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Anyway, you did think it over and you did accept the position, and
19 that was confirmed and you did become a member of the Bosnia and
20 Herzegovina government; is that right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And you -- in fact, that happened, you joined the government
23 around April 1991, did you, or very shortly thereafter?
24 A. Thereabouts. April or maybe even May, but it will sooner be April
25 than May.
1 Q. And is it correct that you had two particular -- almost straight
2 away you were given two particular formal tasks or positions. One was as
3 - and of course I'm giving it to you in English, so I hope it gets --
4 ends up in Serbian as something near to the original - as president of the
5 Disaster Relief Agency, and also as the chairman or president of what is
6 aptly described as the National Parole Board? Say if you're not
7 comfortable with those descriptions as they're coming across to you, but
8 does that sound -- is that right, Mr. Antic?
9 A. You put it really well. Both descriptions are correct.
10 Q. I take compliments when they're offered, Mr. Antic. Thank you.
11 You remained in those positions until April 1992, did you?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. That government, of course, consisted of, naturally, as you've
14 indicated, and the Trial Chamber is well aware of this, Muslims and Croats
15 and, like yourself, Serbs. How would you describe the contribution made
16 by the Croat members of the government to the business and meetings and
17 decisions of the Bosnia and Herzegovina government during the period of
18 your membership?
19 A. You're referring to the Croat members only?
20 Q. Yes. I was taking the -- asking you specifically first about -
21 I'm going to come to others - specifically about the Croat members first,
23 A. Yes. In general terms, I would say that the impression was that
24 they tried to minimise the importance of the rest of Yugoslavia and its
25 importance, and all the federal functions that concerned Bosnia and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Herzegovina, and especially the army. As with other issues, there were no
2 problems, with the so-called regular issues. Whatever concerned the
3 federal level, they tried to minimise it, they tried to deny the
4 importance of those things, and so on and so forth.
5 Q. What about the -- equivalent question: What about the
6 contribution made by the Muslim members of the government to the business
7 and meetings and decisions of the government?
8 A. Initially, their contribution was more or less correct, because
9 this was the period where solutions were sought for the remnants of the
10 so-called functional federation, and there were no major problems. It was
11 only towards the end of the year that similar things appeared with Muslims
12 as had existed from the very beginning with the Croat members of the
14 Q. Mr. Antic, was there, from your observations, was there a
15 difference in the level of ability and experience as between the Serb,
16 Croat, and Muslim elements of the government?
17 A. It's very hard to say that for anybody. My impression was that
18 most of the members of the government were completely anonymous and
19 unknown by the general public, especially when we're talking about the
20 Muslim members of the government, whereas the Serbian representatives were
21 more or less generally and widely known, people who were familiar to the
22 general public by their positions, by their views. But it's very
23 difficult to accept that as a general statement.
24 Q. From your membership with the government during that year, from
25 April 1991 to 1992, did that government have -- well, what was the degree
1 of influence that the government had on political events in Bosnia and
3 A. I mean, purely political events in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I'm
4 not going to say that the government had no influence whatsoever, but no
5 influence to speak of. Because whatever happened in politics happened at
6 the level of the Presidency and within the parties and amongst the parties
7 that met and negotiated things quite outside the realm of the government.
8 And as to the government, they were just acting in a purely formal manner,
9 in order to appear to be acting in line with the constitution.
10 Q. Does that mean that in your case, Mr. Antic - please try and make
11 this clear to the Trial Chamber - are you saying you didn't really do
12 anything or achieve anything as a member of the government?
13 A. Well, you asked about political affairs. Yes, we did talk about
14 other things, but as to political issues, very little.
15 Q. Well, perhaps it's a difficult one, perhaps, Mr. Antic, but
16 perhaps I should make it clear that for these purposes I would like you to
17 take the word "political" in the broadest sense, to include all aspects of
18 government, the economy, and so on.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. So the question in relation at the moment to your own work over
21 that year. Did you do much? Did you achieve much?
22 A. I was minister without a portfolio, so I did not have a ministry
23 of my own, so I couldn't assess or measure the results of such a ministry,
24 since it didn't exist. Of course, the participation in those committees
25 was done properly and I tended to deal with issues having to do with the
1 economy. It was what I knew best. And I did what I could.
2 But I thought when you mentioned politics, that you meant party
3 relations and inter-ethnic relations, and when I replied to your previous
4 question, what I meant to say, that they -- the government, that is, could
5 not influence that. And so, well, all things considered, there were no
6 major results.
7 Q. Was the economics minister a Muslim throughout your membership
8 with the government?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was any request - request or instruction, try to make it clear in
11 your answer - given to you by the SDS as to where you should concentrate
12 your work and your activities as a minister without portfolio?
13 A. Well, obviously, as a minister without portfolio, I participated
14 in work on almost all topics, but I was expected to do a little bit more
15 with regard to anything to do with the economy. And those were the only
16 additional instructions from the very start. From where I stood, it was
17 only natural.
18 Q. Now, you -- all this time you were also running your business, you
19 had an office somewhere, you worked in Ilidza; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You had an office as a minister without portfolio in the
22 government building in Sarajevo; correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. The SDS leadership were not in the same building as you and your
25 office in Sarajevo; is that correct?
1 A. Correct; no.
2 Q. And where was Mr. Krajisnik's office in relation to yours?
3 A. At the building of the BH Assembly.
4 Q. That was a separate building, a different building entirely from
5 where you had your office, was it?
6 A. Yes, but it's the same group of buildings. They were all close
8 Q. Did Dr. Karadzic or Mr. Krajisnik ever attend any government
9 meetings during that year of your membership of the BiH government?
10 A. Never, as far as I recall. Never.
11 Q. During that year - let's leave aside the two meetings that you've
12 already told the Trial Chamber about with Dr. Karadzic before you became a
13 minister - after you became a minister, did you have any further private
14 or nearly private meetings with Dr. Karadzic?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you ever have any small meetings with Dr. Karadzic and a
17 group, by which I mean fewer than ten people present?
18 A. I don't think so. I don't think I was ever present at those
19 really restricted meetings.
20 Q. Did you attend -- now, there was a building which was generally
21 described as the SDS Deputies Club as a description of the building,
22 wasn't there?
23 A. Yes. There was a Deputies Club building. I think that was the
24 name the building had even before the SDS. And that's what it used to be
25 called. But it wasn't like MPs or something, nothing like that. It was
1 just called the Deputies Club, and that's where these SDS meetings were
2 held on occasion, on certain issues.
3 Q. The reason I asked --
4 MR. STEWART: Sorry, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would have a question.
6 MR. STEWART: Of course.
7 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Stewart. Terribly
8 sorry to interrupt you. At this point in time of this hearing, I would
9 like to know what vision did the witness have of this political situation,
10 the global political situation, at that particular time? So he was a
11 businessman, he then steps into the government, he is within the
12 government, and while he is exercising a role within the government, he's
13 also a businessman. But I would like to know, as a citizen, as an active
14 citizen in those two fields, what was his point of view with regards to
15 the general situation? What were the problems in the country at that
16 time? How did he see those problems at the time? And I'm terribly sorry
17 to continue, but he told us that within that government, there were no
18 debates on political topics, or at least while he was present nothing was
19 debated of the sort. But so what was his personal opinion of the
20 situation at the time?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, according to my own personal
22 opinion, the situation was rather complex and vague, and I suppose, if I
23 may put it in this way, that everybody was buying time somehow, until a
24 final, overall solution was brought about by the international community
25 with regard to the entire Yugoslav issue. So basically, everybody in
1 Bosnia and Herzegovina was biding time and waiting to see what was going
2 to happen. So there wasn't a huge chance of anything being resolved or
3 settled independently at the Bosnia and Herzegovina level. That was my
5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, sir.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one additional question as well,
7 Mr. Stewart. I'll let you finish -- I did let you finish your first
8 portion, not to interfere unnecessarily.
9 You said -- you were asked by Mr. Stewart when you took up your
10 position as minister without portfolio, whether you were given by the SDS
11 instructions as to where you should concentrate your work, and you said:
12 "Well, as a minister without portfolio, I participated in work on almost
13 all topics, but I was expected to do a little bit more with regard to
14 anything to do with the economy and those were the only additional
15 instructions from the very start."
16 From whom did you receive those instructions?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, back then, when I talked to
18 Karadzic, it was at his office.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You received -- to focus on economical matters
20 as an instruction from Mr. Karadzic. Yes. Your answer, now I understand,
21 are instructions from Mr. Karadzic. The question was about instructions
22 from the SDS. Was that the same to you, or ...? You understand,
23 Mr. Karadzic could just speak on his own or as someone presenting the
24 views of the SDS. What was the case, as far as you are aware of?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I understood that to be an
1 instruction on behalf of the SDS. That's what he was at the time, the
2 president of the SDS. And that was sufficient. That's how I saw it, as
3 the instructions coming from the party at the same time.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Did he have any official government position at that
5 time, Mr. Karadzic, when he asked you?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. He was just the party chairman.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
9 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Antic, so far as the Deputies Club was concerned, what I was
11 trying to do, so there was no misunderstanding for future questions, was
12 to draw a distinction. There was the SDS Deputies Club, the building, and
13 of course there was the SDS Deputies Club consisting of the deputies as
14 members; that's right, isn't it?
15 A. You mean people who gathered there? Well --
16 Q. The people who were members of -- there was the club, which
17 contained the members, being the SDS deputies.
18 A. Well, yes, and also other people who were not deputies; they were
19 not involved in politics, or in party politics in any way. It was just a
20 place where people gathered. I think, if I'm not mistaken, that those
21 might have been officially the premises of the party, but I'm not sure
22 about that. Perhaps not officially. But meetings and consultations and
23 seminars were held there on different topics.
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, my apology. This may seem a bit
25 cryptic or confused. It's only that at times over the weekend a lot of
1 time got spent on sorting out a certain amount of question of whether one
2 was talking about the building or the club and I was trying to stop that
3 from happening here. I'll just go straight to it, Your Honours.
4 Q. Did you ever attend meetings of the SDS Deputies Club?
5 A. The Deputies Club as MPs, you mean?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. No. No.
8 Q. Did you, during your year of office, attend any SDS meetings at
9 the SDS Deputies Club building?
10 A. Yes. Those were broader-based meetings.
11 Q. In what sense? What were they? Meetings of what group or body or
12 what people?
13 A. I think that there was a political council and an economic council
14 within the party. I think those were the names. That's where people from
15 the party met, but first and foremost, experts on individual issues, and
16 they would talk about such topics.
17 Q. So were they separate meetings, the political council and economic
18 council, or were they in practice wrapped into one?
19 A. In principle, yes, they were separate meetings, but sometimes I
20 think there were overlaps, so certain matters were discussed jointly.
21 Q. Roughly, what sort of attendance was there at meetings of that
22 nature? How many people?
23 A. About 20 to 30, thereabouts.
24 Q. How many of those meetings, as best you can remember, did you
25 attend during the year that you were a member of the government?
1 A. It's hard to say. Maybe about ten within a year, roughly
3 Q. Was Dr. Karadzic often or normally there?
4 A. I can't remember exactly, but I think that either individually or
5 jointly, all leaders from the state authorities and the party attended.
6 Sometimes they attended all together, sometimes individually, but they
7 were there most of the time.
8 Q. So was Mr. Koljevic there, at at least some of these meetings?
9 A. Of course.
10 Q. Mrs. Plavsic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Mr. Krajisnik?
13 A. The same.
14 Q. Did Mr. Krajisnik play an active part in those meetings?
15 A. The same as all the others. It depended on the actual topic that
16 was being discussed. And then, of course, the person most competent on
17 any given topic would have a leading role, but no special role otherwise.
18 Q. Can you remember on what topics Mr. Krajisnik ever took a leading
19 role in the discussion?
20 A. I can't remember.
21 Q. Did you, during your year in the government, did you ever have any
22 private meetings with Mr. Krajisnik?
23 A. No -- well, actually, just once, when we met, when I was appointed
24 minister. I was invited to meet Mr. Krajisnik, and that was the first
25 time I met him, on that occasion, because we had not known each other
2 Q. You'd never met before; is that correct?
3 A. Correct. Never.
4 Q. And that meeting, when you were introduced to him, was that a --
5 was it a business or political meeting, or was it a more or less formal,
6 short introduction? Could you give the Trial Chamber the feel of what was
7 involved in that meeting.
8 A. As far as I was concerned, it was a meeting of convenience, to
9 meet and exchange a few words and maybe some initial experiences, and
10 whether I could expect to be able to deal with issues having to do with
12 Q. Did Mr. Krajisnik give you any specific instructions or directions
13 as to any approach you should adopt at government meetings?
14 A. Nothing special. Nothing worth mentioning.
15 Q. Did he brief you or give you any directions as to SDS policy?
16 A. No. There was no need. At that time, everybody knew about
17 everybody's guidelines and policies, and so it would have been totally
18 redundant to repeat any of that to anyone.
19 Q. Now, apart from your position as -- in the two bodies that we
20 specifically mentioned, the Disaster Relief Agency and the National Parole
21 Board, were you from time to time during your membership with the
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina government appointed to various ad hoc commissions or
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear, unfortunately.
25 MR. STEWART: Yes, I will repeat, Your Honour.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. Apart from your position in the two bodies that we specifically
2 mentioned, the Disaster Relief Agency and the National Parole Board, were
3 you from time to time during your membership of the Bosnia-Herzegovina
4 government appointed to various ad hoc commissions or groups?
5 A. Yes, on a number of occasions, in the period of time when certain
6 inter-ethnic tensions were already rising and there were individual
7 incidents in some places, and the government set up the so-called
8 tripartite committees made up of representatives of three different ethnic
9 groups in order to try to solve problems in the field and calm things
10 down, so to say.
11 Q. Could you give, please -- well, did you go to various places,
12 including Bosanski Brod, Ilijas, and Bratunac, in the performance of that
13 particular type of work?
14 A. Yes, I did go to those three places.
15 Q. And the work was in the nature of mediating disputes wherever they
16 flared up, was it?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. If you failed successfully to mediate and calm down a situation,
19 what would happen then?
20 A. In theory, the more powerful players would be called upon for the
21 next stage, in case there was a next stage. So more senior-level
22 ministers or their assistants.
23 Q. When you -- can you remember when you went to Bratunac on one of
24 these missions?
25 A. Yes, but I don't remember the date. February, March 1992?
1 Something like that. But I really can't remember the date, or the month.
2 Q. What was the specific problem which took you to Bratunac?
3 A. There was a murder in the vicinity of Bratunac, some village in
4 the area, and it led to ethnic tensions to such an extent that that murder
5 was declared to have been caused by nationalist sentiment. And we went
6 there and tried to place everything under the control of the state, the
7 investigation and everything, and to stop people from taking justice into
8 their own hands in any chaotic way. We wanted to make sure that
9 everything was done in a proper and civilised manner.
10 Q. This was a murder of a member of one ethnic group by a member of
11 another ethnic group, was it; and if so, which?
12 A. A Muslim had been killed, and the accused at the time --
13 afterwards, I don't know what happened, but the accused at the time was
14 somebody who apparently was a Serb.
15 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, this isn't a topic that I can cover in
16 just five minutes, so that may be the right point for a break.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll do that after the break. But before we'll have
18 a break, I've got one question in addition to what Mr. Stewart asked you.
19 Mr. Antic, during the breaks of the parliamentary sessions, would
20 the Serb or the SDS members of parliament, would they meet? I mean, if
21 there was any problem where there was any need to further speak about it
22 internally, would the members of parliament, of the SDS, meet? So the
23 Deputies Club, that group of MPs, would they come together somewhere?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you referring to the Assembly of
25 Bosnia and Herzegovina?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. I believe that all
3 Deputies Clubs had their premises, their offices, and they would all meet
4 during breaks. That's as far as I know. I never participated in any of
5 those meetings. I believe that this was customary at the time.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Now, would they meet in the building you described as
7 the Deputies Club or would they meet somewhere in the Assembly building?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Assembly building, there were
9 rooms which were their official premises for their meetings during breaks,
10 and that was in the Assembly building.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I hope I didn't add to the confusion, but I now
12 do understand that the Deputies Club that is a group of MPs would meet not
13 in the building called the Deputies Club but in a room in the Assembly
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Assembly building, they would
16 meet during Assembly sessions, and that's where they would hold their club
17 meetings. And during any other periods of time outside the Assembly
18 session, they would meet in the club building. I hope I have not added to
19 the confusion with what I have just said.
20 JUDGE ORIE: That's now perfectly clear.
21 We'll have a break until 11.00.
22 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any explanation why Defence is not in court?
25 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, no explanation has been communicated
1 to me.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll wait and time how much it takes us. Six
3 interpreters, two technicians, one transcriber, three Prosecution.
4 Could the Defence give any explanation why counsel is not there?
5 MR. SLADOJEVIC: Your Honours, Mr. Stewart is on his way.
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's not an explanation.
7 MR. STEWART: Your Honours, my apologies. I asked Mr. Zahar to
8 just explain to you very briefly why I'm late back in court. I was having
9 a discussion with a representative of the Trial Chamber over a matter
10 which did seem to be of some importance, and I apologise. I think we
11 both, in the course of that discussion, probably -- it extended a little
12 bit longer. But I hope Your Honours will accept my --
13 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear from Mr. Zahar and you may proceed. But
14 if you'd be fully dressed.
15 MR. STEWART: Indeed, Your Honour. It's convenient sometimes for
16 us to leave the material in Court.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
18 MR. STEWART: Well, I hope Your Honours understand. I certainly
19 wouldn't wish the discourtesy of simply ignoring the timetable or
20 deliberately keeping Your Honours waiting, or even accidentally,
21 inadvertently, keeping Your Honours waiting.
22 I take it the examination of the witness hasn't proceeded without
23 me, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, although I was about to ask whether Mr. Krajisnik
25 had any questions. I said at 11:05:53 that you could proceed,
1 Mr. Stewart. Please do so.
2 MR. STEWART: Yes, I see. Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Q. When you arrived -- well, who went to Bratunac, then? Do you
4 remember, Mr. Antic? There was you and then what colleagues of yours from
5 the government went with you?
6 A. This was a very memorable journey for me. We went in a
7 helicopter. There was Mr. Avdo Hebib, who was either the assistant
8 minister for the interior or something to that effect. And there was
9 somebody else there. I can't remember who it was.
10 Q. And then when you got to Bratunac, what was your primary aim?
11 A. To talk to both sides that were struck by panic. We spoke both to
12 Muslim community and the Serbian community separately.
13 Q. And did you then submit a report?
14 A. Of course. I didn't do it personally. Somebody on behalf of the
15 commission submitted an official report to the president of the government
16 and this was forwarded to higher instances. I don't know what happened
17 next, because my role had ended with that site visit.
18 Q. Was there a report to the government, was it, or to whom?
19 A. The government.
20 Q. Did Dr. Karadzic have any involvement in this particular work of,
21 for example, going out to Bratunac in mediation capacity? I don't mean
22 that he went to Bratunac himself, but your work of going to Bratunac, did
23 Dr. Karadzic have any personal involvement in that particular work?
24 A. No. I was delegated by the Prime Minister Jure Pelivan himself.
25 Whether he had consulted somebody prior to that or not, I wouldn't know.
1 I don't think so, as a matter of fact.
2 Q. Did Mr. Krajisnik have any part in this work?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Was there anything about that particular mission to Bratunac which
5 caused you and your colleagues in the delegation any particular discomfort
6 or concern?
7 A. No, nothing directly. But the atmosphere was very tense, and in
8 such an atmosphere, there is always a reason for concern. Something could
9 always happen, an incident of some sort. That kind of concern existed,
10 but generally speaking, there was no concern at all.
11 Q. When you had your meetings with the Serb leaders in the locality
12 and the Muslim leaders in the locality, were they entirely peaceful,
13 friendly meetings?
14 A. Peaceful, friendly, but still there was tension, there was
15 electricity in the air; there was a lot of emotions, because the cause of
16 our visit had nothing to do with things being peaceful. But there were no
18 Q. Were you able to make any observations about the extent to which
19 arms were being held by the people in that locality?
20 A. Yes. I noticed -- actually, I saw in the village where we were,
21 in the Muslim part, I saw that people were armed, and they did not even go
22 to great lengths to hide it from us. And I suppose that the Serbian side
23 also had weapons, but they didn't demonstrate their weapons so openly.
24 Q. Did anybody attending any of the meetings that you held have any
25 weapon with them?
1 A. At the meetings, inside, there were no visible signs of weapons;
2 however, the people who were standing outside waiting for the outcome of
3 those meetings, they were armed.
4 Q. Did that apply to both Serbs and Muslims?
5 A. I'm talking about the Muslims now. I don't know about the Serbs.
6 I did not see any, and I can't say whether they had weapons or not. I can
7 only assume that they did, but I can't be sure of that.
8 Q. When you went to Bosanski Brod - perhaps I could lead on this to
9 speed things up - were the tensions -- had the tensions in Bosanski Brod
10 led to both sides, by which I mean the Serbs and the Muslims, setting up
11 checkpoints dividing the town?
12 A. Yes, on both sides. But actually, I believe that there were more
13 Serbs and Croats than Serbs and Muslims. There was some participation of
14 Muslims, but generally speaking, the division was between the Serbs and
15 the Croats in Bosanski Brod.
16 Q. Did the Croat delegate in your mission take any specific steps to
17 try to resolve the matter so far as Croats were concerned?
18 A. We participated at the joint session of the municipality, where
19 that leadership was. I don't know about their positions. The three of us
20 - myself, the gentleman representing the Croat side and the gentleman
21 representing the Muslim side - we tried to alleviate the tensions. We
22 were of the opinion that the incidents had no real cause, and that's when
23 we agreed that I should go and talk to the Serbian side, to the people who
24 had put up barricades on that side, and the gentleman who was also a
25 minister and whose name I can't remember at the moment - his first name
1 was Miro - he went to the Croat side. I believe that he even went to
2 Croatia proper to talk to people in Slavonski Brod about the ways to calm
3 down the situation.
4 Q. When you say that you came to the opinion that the incidents had
5 no real cause, did you form an opinion? You say "no real cause." What
6 was the cause, in your opinion?
7 A. At that time, there had been no shooting or killings or any of
8 those things. It was just the reaction to a potential fear on both sides.
9 In that sense, I don't think that there was any real cause. This was just
10 in fear or in preparation of some possible future events. The situation
11 was still under control. Everything was rather calm and peaceful at the
13 Q. Did your delegation form any impression as to whether, whatever
14 the causes were, they were essentially local or came from outside the
15 municipality of Bosanski Brod?
16 A. As I visited the people on the Serbian side, my impression was
17 that the decision was not only at the local level, but even the
18 micro-local level. In one part of the town. They did it spontaneously.
19 It was a knee-jerk reaction. There was no plan. It was all a big
20 improvisation. It just so happened, there was nothing premeditated about
22 Q. Did any member of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Presidency visit
23 Bosanski Brod as a follow-up to your mission?
24 A. Of course, after our visit we submitted a report to the Prime
25 Minister. I believe that the Prime Minister forwarded that information to
1 whoever, the president, the Presidency. And soon after that,
2 Mrs. Plavsic, representing the Serbian side, Mr. Fikret Abdic, and I don't
3 know who it was representing the Croat side, they went to the region soon
4 after. And that's when my mission was completed. I only went for field
5 visits, and I didn't have any other tasks as a follow-up to that.
6 Q. Mr. Antic, I don't want to ask you questions about a massacre said
7 by some people, including a witness here, to have taken place at a certain
8 place called Sijekovac, so I'm not asking about that. But you have heard
9 of such an incident, have you?
10 A. Yes, I've heard of that incident.
11 Q. As far as you know, did that incident -- is that incident said to
12 have taken place before or after your visit to Bosanski Brod?
13 A. As far as I can remember, this happened after. I'm sure that it
14 happened after.
15 Q. Now, you also -- a group of the type that you've described, a
16 delegation, went to Ilijas. Was that in or around March 1992?
17 A. It is possible. I'm very bad at dates, I'm afraid. It is
18 possible that it was in March. All the three visits happened within a
19 very short time space.
20 Q. Are you able to say that it was in early 1992?
21 A. Early 1992, if you consider March being early in the year. It was
22 not winter, in any case. It was spring. The weather was rather good at
23 the time.
24 Q. And the issue there was this, was it: That the Serbs had detained
25 a truck with ammunition and the local Muslims were complaining that the
1 Serbs were proposing to retain those arms. Was that the issue?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And did your delegation manage, one way or another, to put those
4 arms under the control of the JNA in Sarajevo?
5 A. This is the only thing that we were successful with completely.
6 We agreed that the truck was placed at our disposal and the army put that
7 in a central depot. Both sides were happy with that. After that we had
8 concrete talks with the Muslim side. Everybody was happy that this was
9 arranged in that way. The person representing the army at that time was
10 General Djurdjevac. I remember him well.
11 Q. Were the local Muslims satisfied with the solution that you
13 A. I believe so. They said so. They were afraid that the arms could
14 be turned against them. And when the arms left the area, they were happy
15 how this whole situation had been resolved.
16 Q. Were the -- was the central Muslim leadership, or the higher
17 Muslim leadership of the SDA, happy with that solution, so far as you're
19 A. I can only assume that they were satisfied that the arms had been
20 withdrawn from the area. I don't know whether they were satisfied that
21 all these arms were put under the control of the army.
22 Q. Back to the government meetings. Did you, when you attended
23 government meetings during your year in office, receive instructions in
24 advance on how to vote?
25 A. No, not in any organised manner. There was no need for that. 95
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 per cent of the issues pertaining to the work of the government did not
2 have to be coordinated by anybody, because all these issues were
3 professional issues and there was no need for instructions for any of
4 these issues.
5 As for the political issues, I personally was never instructed in
6 any manner. I can't speak of my other colleagues in other ministries,
7 whether they had any instructions from anybody. In any case, it was never
8 done in an organised manner across the board.
9 Q. Did you form any impression, from what you observed at those
10 meetings, as to whether your HDZ or SDA colleagues were receiving
11 instructions on how to vote?
12 A. Yes, of course. I have already said that when we discussed the
13 federal state and the survival of Bosnia and Herzegovina in it, this was
14 done. When it came to professional issues, one couldn't notice any
15 influence. Professional issues are professional issues and they're not
16 ethnically based.
17 Q. Did the government, during your membership, address security
19 A. I can't say that this wasn't done formally, but there was nothing
20 to it in essence. What it all boiled down to was the notorious political
21 and security situation, and the formula was that this was very complex,
22 that it had to be monitored in order to prevent any further escalation,
23 escalations. This was just a formula provided to us by the SUP, without
24 any details, save for some particular incidents that sometimes were
25 discussed in somewhat greater detail. Otherwise, it was all just a
1 formality. All these reports were just a formality.
2 Q. The foreign minister, the minister with responsibility for
3 international relations, was a Muslim, Mr. Silajdzic; is that correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And did he at times during your year of office go on missions to
6 other countries?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did he report back to the government on his return from such
10 A. From time to time, with a lot of delay. Again, another formality,
11 without any details. And sometimes he did not report at all. I found it
12 strange that a government of any kind could have international relations
13 that somebody could be sent on state visits without reporting back to the
14 government. This was very strange to me, and I did not find that to be
16 Q. Was the -- his not reporting back to the government, was that in
17 the face of any requests by you and your other government colleagues which
18 were met by reluctance or refusal?
19 A. Nobody ever made such requests. On some occasions, though, there
20 were requests of the sort for him to report back on the visit. I believe
21 that it was a visit to Turkey or some other Arabic country, and the
22 response was: There is no need for me to report back to the government,
23 because I went as a private individual, and the expenses were covered by
24 my party, so this is not the matter for the government.
25 In my view, this was very strange, because it was very strange for
1 a minister in the government to visit a foreign state as a private
3 Q. Were you personally convinced by that explanation by
4 Mr. Silajdzic?
5 A. Of course not, but it was quite clear to me that there was no
6 point in asking these questions because I was getting nowhere.
7 Q. Can you recall when was the last meeting you attended as a member
8 of the Bosnia and Herzegovina government?
9 A. Well, I don't know whether there was an official government
10 meeting on that day, but my last presence within the government building
11 and the cabinet, and on the occasion of the last session, I do remember
12 that date, because it's quite poignant. It was on the 3rd of April, 1992,
13 and it was a joint meeting, or an extended meeting, or whatever you want
14 to call it, of the entire leadership of Bosnia and Herzegovina; all the
15 government ministers, the BH Presidency, the president of the Assembly,
16 the army representatives, and some others, Territorial Defence, I believe,
17 and some other people from the overall political life within the country.
18 So that happened on the 3rd of April. And it was convened due to some
19 problems in Bijeljina.
20 Q. Now, can you confirm whether the -- if the following people were
21 present: Mr. Alija Izetbegovic?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Mr. Stjepan Kljuic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. General Kukanjac?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Momcilo Krajisnik?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mr. Djeric, the Prime Minister?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Nikola Koljevic?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was Mrs. Plavsic there?
9 A. I think so. I'm not sure. She should have been there. Everybody
10 who was supposed to be there was there.
11 Q. Was Mr. Karadzic there?
12 A. No. He wasn't there, because it was just for the official
13 authorities, people who had posts within the executive branch of the
14 government, and he didn't have such a post at the time.
15 Q. In what capacity, as far as you could see, was Mr. Krajisnik
17 A. He attended in the same way as everybody else; the president of
18 the Assembly, if that's what you mean.
19 Q. Did you regard the president of the Assembly as part of the
20 executive branch of the government?
21 A. No, but ...
22 Q. Was anybody else present --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness complete his answer. You said:
24 "No, but ..." so you may have had something in mind. Could you explain to
25 us what you had in mind when you said: "No, but ..."
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. What I was about to say is I
2 don't know whether he was just present to hear about these issues.
3 MR. STEWART: I think it's fair, Your Honour, if I make it clear
4 that of course I don't have the slightest objection or concern about Your
5 Honour's question. I believe I didn't attempt to cut off the witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. I didn't blame you for that. But since you
7 started your next question and since I was interested to know what came
8 after that --
9 MR. STEWART: I didn't take any criticism, Your Honour. The
10 transcript might make it look as if I had. That's all.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.
12 MR. STEWART: Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
14 MR. STEWART:
15 Q. So the events in Bijeljina were the instigator of that meeting.
16 What was reported or understood at that meeting to have been happening in
18 A. I wouldn't be able to specify anything without speculating. I
19 don't know about the details. I know there were some incidents, there
20 were requests on the part of Alija Izetbegovic for the army to get
21 involved in sorting the situation out.
22 Q. And were there any differences of view at that meeting between
23 Mr. Izetbegovic and any of the Serbs who were present?
24 A. There was general disagreement about this. Do we want to use the
25 army to sort things out or not? If we do use the Armed Forces, we have to
1 use them everywhere. Whereas Mr. Izetbegovic insisted on the Armed Forces
2 being brought in in Bijeljina only.
3 Q. Mr. Kljuic, did he have a point of view which he expressed?
4 A. I don't remember.
5 Q. Did General Kukanjac have a point of view which he expressed?
6 A. Yes. The general was willing to make the army available in order
7 to help solving all the burning issues in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but of
8 course, if there was agreement on all sides, in the same way everywhere.
9 And of course there had to be agreement on every occasion.
10 Q. Did it appear why Mr. Izetbegovic was insisting on the JNA being
11 brought in to Bijeljina only?
12 A. I gleaned it on the basis of the overall context. That is to say,
13 apparently there were some Serb groups in Bijeljina causing trouble, and
14 that was a kind of invitation for the army to act against these Serb
15 groups. That was my understanding as to why Bijeljina. It must have been
16 something like that.
17 Q. Was -- in the end, was the JNA used to attempt to quell disorders
18 in different locations around Bosnia?
19 A. No. As far as I know, no.
20 Q. Did you take steps the very next morning to move your family to
22 A. Yes. On the next morning I took my family to Belgrade, not
23 because wanted to move away from Sarajevo but because there was a case
24 [Realtime transcript read in error "indication"] of death in my family.
25 My sister-in-law had died, and so I took my wife and my children to
1 Belgrade in order for my wife to be able to help look after her young
2 children. So it was a temporary family emergency, if you like.
3 Q. You personally had difficulties returning, did you, because
4 disorder broke out in Sarajevo and there was a suspension of air travel?
5 A. That's correct. I drove my family to Belgrade, and my intention
6 was to leave them there and go back to Sarajevo on Sunday, on the 5th.
7 But, as you said, there was no flight, and I remember quite correctly that
8 Mr. Ejub Ganic was trying to catch the same flight from Belgrade to
9 Sarajevo and we were grounded. So I stayed on for a couple more days.
10 Q. Is this right: You returned after a few days to Sarajevo, that
11 you went to your parents in Rajkovica and you stayed there until sometime
12 in May 1992? Is that correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And then --
15 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry, Your Honour?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Stewart. There's one answer I did not fully
18 You said, Witness, that there was an indication of death in your
19 family because your sister-in-law had died. I had some difficulties
20 understanding what indication he exactly means.
21 Did your sister-in-law die early April, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd of April,
22 so immediately previous to your driving to Belgrade?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. A couple of months earlier she
24 was killed in a car accident in Serbia. Nothing to do with war or
25 anything. But we in the family all took turns in taking care of her
1 children. Sometimes my mother or my wife or somebody else, because they
2 were very young.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. Thank you for this
5 Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
6 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. You moved to Pale sometime in May 1992; is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. What instigated your move to Pale?
10 A. I was appointed minister of the economy at the Assembly of the
11 Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as it used to be called then.
12 Q. Did you -- do you remember when in May you first arrived in Pale?
13 A. I don't remember correctly, but if I was elected on the occasion
14 of this Assembly, I know, I remember that it was on the 12th of May, so at
15 some point after that. Three, four, five, seven days later; I can't
16 remember correctly.
17 Q. When you arrived in Pale, you first lived in the Kikinda building;
18 is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were you in fact given the task of -- essentially of forming the
21 ministry in the government of the Serb Republic?
22 A. Correct, from the start.
23 Q. Did you receive detailed instructions as to how to go about that?
24 A. There was nobody to give any detailed instructions. There was
25 nothing. The conditions were not good. And so we based ourselves on our
1 own experiences and know-how and our ideas as to what should be done
2 first, and then we worked on that basis.
3 Q. How long overall did you remain in Pale?
4 A. You mean as a member of government in the government building in
5 Pale? Is that what you mean?
6 Q. Well, yes. You may answer that question. Yes, how long did you
7 remain in Pale as a member of the government?
8 A. The government, as a body, at Pale -- well, I think that we moved
9 to Jahorina in the beginning of June because the conditions were not very
10 good at the Kikinda building, and there wasn't enough space, simply, and
11 so we moved to Bistrica Hotel at Jahorina. And I remained within the
12 government until the end of the year, at the end of 1992.
13 Q. How would you describe, very briefly, how would you describe the
14 nature of your particular tasks and responsibilities as that minister?
15 A. Quite briefly, it was necessary to set up some regulatory
16 framework for the functioning of the economy in the conditions which were
17 characterised by an imminent threat of war and a rather disturbed economy,
18 cut off communications. We had to put a stop and prevent the looting, any
19 behaviour which would be out of control, any anarchy, and regulate things
20 as much as possible and bring about some kind of normal order, in order to
21 avoid chaos, quite briefly. And all that with the aim of ensuring a level
22 of the functioning of the economy, in order to ensure the survival of the
23 population, in order to avoid any further wasting of resources. And we
24 were all expecting things to calm down relatively quickly at that stage,
25 and of course we wanted to prevent the economy from going under. And in
1 order to make it possible to revive the economy as soon as possible after
2 the troubles ended, and we all hoped that it would happen sooner rather
3 than later.
4 Q. Was there any one person to whom you particularly reported?
5 A. Of course. The president of the government, the head of the
7 Q. That was Mr. Djeric?
8 A. Yes, correct.
9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... have been your professor at
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Did you, from when you arrived in Pale in May 1992, over the next
13 few months, did you have meetings yourself with Mr. Krajisnik? And I
14 should say, I'm not talking about large meetings at which you and he might
15 have both been present. You understand what I mean: Did you actually
16 have meetings with Mr. Krajisnik himself?
17 A. Yes. Not very often. Very rarely, in fact. But mostly about
18 individual issues having to do with the economy, and first and foremost,
19 because he had a great deal of experience in this field. So it was about
20 getting advice as to how to solve certain issues, because he was familiar
21 with the larger structures and systems within the region, so that was the
22 basis for our meeting, not in his capacity as the president of the
23 Assembly but as an experienced businessman.
24 Q. Can you say to the Trial Chamber with what frequency such meetings
25 took place between you and Mr. Krajisnik?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. No, not very often. Perhaps five to six times during my time in
2 office, perhaps not even that often.
3 Q. Were you aware of or did you see any evidence of Mr. Krajisnik's
4 participation in the executive aspects of government in the Serb Republic?
5 A. Mr. Krajisnik never participated in the work of the government,
6 and generally speaking, an unwritten rule was for every branch to mind
7 their own business, as it were.
8 Q. Were you aware of, after your arrival in Pale in May 1992, were
9 you aware of any organ or body with the title "Expanded Presidency"?
10 A. When I got to Pale, I was elected to some assembly as a member of
11 government, and it was on the same occasion when the Presidency of the
12 Republic, of the Serb Republic, was elected. And obviously, I do know
13 that there was a Presidency, and I had also heard of the expression
14 "Extended Presidency," which implied advisory meetings of the Presidency
15 with other branches of government, other advisory bodies in those
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I'd like to put a question, one or two
18 questions, to the witness to clarify his meetings with Mr. Krajisnik, as
19 you said, as an experienced businessman.
20 Could you give us an example of the issues you discussed with
21 him. You said: "So it was about getting advice as to how to solve
22 certain issues." Could you give us an example of that.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't actually remember any
24 specific incidents at the moment, but since in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in
25 particular, there were many large companies, and they all had their
1 headquarters in Sarajevo and they all had branch offices or subsidiaries
2 in other parts of the country. And following the breakup of the Republic,
3 those systems, those large companies, were dissolved. And so it was a
4 problem as to how to bring them back together, such as Energoinvest or
5 another company for oil and oil derivatives, et cetera. So it was about
6 these large companies, basically.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You mentioned oil and oil derivatives. Was that one
8 of your concerns, where to get oil? Because everyone, I would say
9 including a government, would need oil. Was that an issue you would
10 discuss with Mr. Krajisnik?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, not in terms of supplies,
12 but in terms of organising or structuring the parts of companies, and the
13 company in question was Energopetrol and they were in charge of oil
14 distribution. And obviously, I had cooperation with these companies. I
15 was trying to help them function, and up until such point in time when
16 they could take care of everything independently.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what you then did in organising and
18 structuring the Energopetrol to make it properly function again?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing special, really. There was
20 this breakdown and I found appropriate people to lead the company, who
21 enjoyed the trust of the employees as well, and they were people of
22 integrity, people with a certain amount of experience, and they continued
23 to work as if everything were normal. So that was the end of my task. I
24 couldn't tell them what to do exactly in their day-to-day work, but I
25 could help them get started. Because the government, of course, had to
1 take account of these big companies and try to do something about them.
2 And as for the SMEs, they had to fend for themselves.
3 JUDGE ORIE: If you were not responsible and you were not involved
4 in where to -- how to get oil, who was responsible for that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The ministry was responsible, but in
6 the last analysis, it was up to the companies that were entrusted with
7 that task by the ministry. It was up to them in as far as the civilian
8 uses were concerned. I'm not talking about the military or anything like
9 that. That was not within my area of competence.
10 JUDGE ORIE: But for civilian purposes, you were responsible in
11 getting the oil from somewhere?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The ministry is not involved in the
13 purchase of oil or getting supplies or anything; it was up to the
14 companies to deal with that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the companies also do sell it to the
16 government, do they not? I mean, the government needs fuel as well, or --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, for civilian purposes, you were responsible for
19 -- you say the companies were responsible. Of course, there are two
20 parties, isn't it; the one who buys and the one who sells.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The company buys and sells. They're
22 involved in trade. Energopetrol bought oil and oil derivatives and then
23 sold them on to any other companies that might be needing them, at market
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then did you directly, for government purposes, for
1 civilian government purposes, buy oil from Energopetrol?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
3 JUDGE ORIE: From whom did you buy it, if not from Energopetrol?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean -- who do you mean when you
5 say "you"? Do you mean the government or the ministry?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, your ministry, being a part of the government,
7 isn't it? But tell us first about the ministry.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. I got it. Right. Our
9 ministry needed fuel for cars, and that was all. Is that what you mean?
10 We didn't have any huge needs. There were a number of petrol stations
11 owned by Energopetrol and that's where we bought our petrol and they
12 invoiced it to us and then we paid it. Actually, the finance ministry
13 paid for all this expenditure for all the other ministries.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. You say the fuel needed for cars was
15 directly purchased from Energopetrol at the gas stations and was paid
16 directly. And now, apart from the ministry, the government; you made a
17 distinction. How about the government, their supplies?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So there was never -- did the government never buy
20 quantities of fuel, apart from getting it at the gas stations, from
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. When we talk in terms of the
23 technical needs, for the day-to-day functioning of the government, cars,
24 vehicles, in general, yes, that's what they did.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Nothing else?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not to my knowledge. Not to my
3 JUDGE ORIE: And as far as the military is concerned, that was
4 done by whom?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not involved in that, and the
6 military had their own special channels through the Defence Ministry or
7 whatever, but I was never involved in any of that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So as far as petrol is concerned, your meetings with
9 Mr. Krajisnik were limited to finding people to be appointed? I'm just
10 trying to ...
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mentioned the nature of these
12 talks, and now you've mentioned fuel. But we talked about other
13 companies, such as Sipad, which is a furniture manufacturers, and the
14 woods and timber resources in the Republika Srpska, and all sorts of
16 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand, but I put these questions to you
17 since you mentioned oil companies and I was interested to know a bit more
18 about that. So but your meetings as far as oil company, or an oil company
19 was concerned, was limited to finding the right people to be appointed in
20 the parts that remained in your part of the former Republic?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. I didn't consult him about
22 the right people or anything like that. I just sought advice on a number
23 of issues, different things that we might have discussed, and I managed to
24 find the people myself, or else they came to me and they were perhaps
25 suggested by somebody else from the company itself. It wasn't a kind of
1 choice of people in normal terms, because people scattered and many of
2 them fled, so it was a bit of a problem.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said you just sought advice on a number of
4 issues, not specifically finding the right people. What kind of issues
5 did you seek his advice on, specifically in relation to oil companies or
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, never about that. I just gave
8 you an example of all the activities that I had to go through in a certain
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you tell us that -- I mean, you came with
11 -- you told us about companies for oil and oil derivatives. I asked you
12 about it. You came with the example of Energopetrol. I asked you what
13 you discussed, and you said something about restructuring and finding --
14 you were trying to help them function and that -- well, you gave that as
15 an example. And now I ask you a bit further about it, whether it was
16 about staffing and the management. You say, No, it wasn't. And I asked
17 you, What else, then, was it that you discussed, what other issues? As
18 you said, you were seeking the advice of Mr. Krajisnik. And you said
19 nothing specific. It's difficult for me to get the right impression to
20 what extent your discussions of companies with oil and oil derivatives,
21 what they -- what the subject specifically was.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, obviously you misunderstood
23 me. I mentioned some of the things that had to do with my activities, and
24 then you mentioned oil. I was in charge of all of that. I didn't want to
25 say that we discussed specifically this or that or the other. Every now
1 and then when I had an issue to raise, I would raise it. I can't remember
2 exactly what issues I raised. My meetings were -- with Krajisnik were of
3 that nature. They were not political meetings. And this is what I wanted
4 to say. I did not want to specify any of the issues. I remember that I
5 worked on my own. I was very independent in my work, if that is what you
6 were referring to. I never had to seek Mr. Krajisnik's approval on any of
7 the issues that I had to deal with.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking about approval, but you came up with
9 companies for oil and oil derivatives. You are the one who mentioned
10 Energopetrol as the firm involved. You said: "And the company in
11 question was Energopetrol, and they were in charge of distribution."
12 So you came with the examples, and I asked you what specifically
13 you discussed in relation to this firm with Mr. Krajisnik. And I have not
14 received an answer yet, apart from that -- nothing.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, nothing, nothing. I told you
16 what I did with the company Energopetrol and what its role was. This is
17 what I told you. I found people; I remember that. This was just by
18 chance that I came across people who could be appointed directors at the
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
21 Judge Hanoteau has a question for you.
22 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I would like to understand why
23 you went to Mr. Krajisnik on five or six occasions, and you say that you
24 considered him an experienced businessman. Why did you consider him an
25 experienced businessman? What did you base that knowledge on? What did
1 you base that information on?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a well-known fact.
3 Mr. Krajisnik was one of the leading directors in one of the biggest
4 companies in Sarajevo, Energoinvest, which was the market leader in the
5 region, and he was well aware of the issues, and everybody knew that,
6 everybody was aware of that. He had experience in the job. I talked to a
7 number of other people who could help me with ideas, with things. I would
8 talk to other people as well, because I had to start from scratch.
9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, but you said that you had
10 considered him an experienced businessman, and you say that you considered
11 him that because he had been one of the directors in this energy-producing
12 company. But why did you consider him as an experienced businessman? Was
13 he well known in the community as somebody who had a role in the local
14 economy, who had dealt with various parts of the economy? Was he famous
15 for that? Was he an experienced politician, a member of the Assembly?
16 Why did you have to contact him for advice in your job?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was generally known as a good
18 businessman, and it was not only in my case, but everybody knew him as
19 such. Why I contacted him, of all the people, on several occasions is
20 hard to say, but I contacted dozens of others; in the country, outside of
21 the country, in the government. I would contact anybody whom I thought
22 could give me advice and answers to my questions. It was a normal thing
23 for me, and I really don't know how else I could explain that, what other
24 explanation to provide.
25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] What did you know about his
1 business experience that could portray him as an expert? What things did
2 you know of him that would indicate to you that he was an economic expert?
3 You told us a while ago that you didn't know much about him, that he
4 hadn't met him before. What made you think that he was somebody who was
5 well abreast of the economy, that he was an economic professional? What
6 did you know from his CV?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't know him personally, as I'm
8 a bit younger than him. However, his company had been a very hot issue in
9 Sarajevo for a number of years, and the workers were happy, they had good
10 salaries, they all had apartments. Nobody who knew anything about the
11 economy was -- who didn't know about Mr. Krajisnik. The Prime Minister
12 was a teacher, Mr. Karadzic was a doctor, Mrs. Plavsic was a biologist.
13 And it was only logical if there was somebody for me to talk to, it would
14 have been somebody who had been a businessman before. And among the
15 people that I've just mentioned, Mr. Krajisnik was the most experienced
16 one in that respect, and everybody knew that.
17 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] In your view, for how long was he
18 a director of that company, as far as you know?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly. More than ten
20 years, I suppose.
21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for your
22 answers, sir.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
24 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. Antic, the Extended Presidency, or Expanded Presidency, that's
1 all the same thing, is it, in your mind?
2 A. The Extended Presidency is the same thing as what?
3 MR. STEWART: I think the question is implicitly answered, Your
5 I was only concerned, Your Honour, we get these translations -- I
6 get "Extended --" no criticism. "Extended Presidency" comes back
7 sometimes in English as the translation and I just want to be clear that
8 there's no difference between "extended" and "expanded," that it's just a
9 minor interpretation question.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's not the Presidency, but I would say a
11 widened Presidency, whether it's expanded or extended, that doesn't make
12 any difference for you? I don't know whether this is difficult to
14 MR. STEWART: It's hard, Your Honour, because we put that question
15 and then it comes in Serbian to --
16 Q. Mr. Antic, I'm asking you questions, really, about the Presidency
17 and then something that I put to you as being Expanded Presidency. There
18 wasn't any other sort of larger Presidency in the Republika Srpska apart
19 from something that you had heard of described as "the Expanded
20 Presidency," was there?
21 A. I don't know. There was a Presidency. I have heard of the term
22 "Expanded" or "Extended Presidency," which is all the same. You're asking
23 me if there was a body even wider than that. Could you please be more
24 precise? I'm not very clear on what you want from me.
25 Q. In passing, your last answer has come to the point --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I do not know whether --
2 You say there was the Presidency and there was something which was
3 called the Expanded or Extended Presidency. Could you tell us what the
4 difference is between Presidency Sec and Extended or Expanded Presidency.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Presidency, as such, was an
6 official body elected by the Assembly, composed of three members; namely,
7 Karadzic, Koljevic, and Plavsic. And the Extended or Expanded Presidency
8 is a term that became known as the extended sessions of the Presidency
9 whenever consultations were needed. This is how I perceive that. This is
10 the Extended Presidency that sometimes would involve some other people, as
11 far as I know. I did not participate in any of those sessions, so I
12 wouldn't really be able to tell you exactly what it was all about.
13 JUDGE ORIE: From what you heard, who would then attend these
14 extended meetings of the Presidency?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In addition to the Presidency
16 proper, consisting of three members, those sessions were often or mostly
17 attended by the president of the Assembly, the Prime Minister, and
18 sometimes some ministers; the minister of the police, the minister of the
19 army. It largely depended on the situation at hand.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
21 MR. STEWART: Yes. May I make it clear when I was suggesting that
22 his last answer at line 22 had covered the point, I simply meant the point
23 about the terminology "expanded" or "extended" rather than the larger
24 question. But thank you. Your Honour's questions have gone into that
25 helpfully, thank you.
1 Q. Did you ever attend yourself any meeting which you regarded as a
2 meeting of that Expanded Presidency?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did you regard Mr. Djeric as a member of the Presidency?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you regard the Expanded Presidency as something which had
7 clear membership, so that you could say, well, A, B, C, D, E, F, whatever,
8 are members and X, Y, Z are not members? Is that the way you saw that
9 particular entity?
10 A. You're referring to a specific composition. No, I did not regard
11 it as such.
12 Q. Were you able, when you were in Pale, to gain any clear idea from
13 your own observations and knowledge as to who controlled military matters?
14 A. The military matters were controlled by the Presidency of the
16 Q. And when you say "the Presidency of the Republic," which
17 individuals did that mean, in your assessment, controlled the army? Or
18 controlled military -- well, the army, military matters.
19 A. The president of the Presidency, Karadzic, and the members of the
20 Presidency, Plavsic and Koljevic.
21 Q. Were you able yourself to form any impression of the relative
22 involvement and influence of those three people on the army?
23 A. I did not have an occasion to measure that, but I believe that,
24 according to the hierarchy, the president had the biggest influence. It
25 was a collective body, and I really don't know how they shared the level
1 of influence amongst themselves.
2 Q. Were you, in 1992, from May onwards, when you were in Pale, did
3 you observe or come to know of anything which indicated to you that
4 Mr. Krajisnik had any control over army or police activities?
5 A. No. There were no indications of that sort.
6 Q. Did you, at government meetings, discuss from time to time the
7 question of prison camps?
8 A. Yes. There were quite a number of so-called collection centres,
9 prisons, or whatever they were called at the time, and on several
10 occasions we received information about them. And it was the government's
11 position that they should be placed under control of the regular bodies,
12 that there should be order, that there should be investigations, and
13 finally a decision was made that all of those should be closed down. In a
14 nutshell, that is.
15 Q. Was the issue of prison camps or detention centres -- well, what
16 was your own -- apart from attending meetings of the government, what was
17 your own personal involvement in any questions relating to prison camps or
18 detention centres?
19 A. None whatsoever. My only involvement was my presence at those
21 Q. Were there particular individual members of the government who did
22 have specific responsibilities or duties in relation to that matter?
23 A. I believe that those were minister of the defence, minister of the
24 police, and minister of justice. This was within their purview, and as a
25 government, we just adopted positions on those issues.
1 Q. Did you -- were you present when reports were received by the
2 government that caused you special concern or anxiety as to the position?
3 I'm talking about prison camps and detention centres, just to make that
5 A. Whether I was present?
6 Q. Yes. Whether you were -- you remember being present -- I'll put
7 the question again, Mr. Antic, so it's clear. Whether you remember being
8 present at any meetings of the government at which reports were received
9 in relation to prison camps or detention centres which caused you
10 personally particular anxiety or concern.
11 A. I was present, yes. A commission had inspected those camps and
12 submitted a report about them.
13 Q. And that caused you concern, did it, that report?
14 A. No, not really. As far as I remember, there were stories that the
15 government had not even been aware of. Some of those stories were true,
16 some were not true. The task of the commission was to investigate into
17 all of those stories and submit a report. I don't remember all of the
18 details, but the commission said that there were some irregularities but
19 also there was false information. They suggested some things that should
20 be implemented by the Ministry of Justice, the police, and the army, and
21 it was the government's position that this issue had to be placed under
22 the control of the army and that such centres, or whatever you want to
23 call them, or whatever they were called at the time, should be closed down
24 as soon as possible. And I believe that soon after that they indeed were
25 closed down.
1 Q. To your knowledge, was Mr. Krajisnik -- or do you know of
2 Mr. Krajisnik being involved in any discussions or decisions in relation
3 to prison camps or detention centres?
4 A. No, as far as I know.
5 Q. Did Mr. Krajisnik have any particular reputation, personal
6 reputation, so far as his dealings with the Muslim community was
8 A. Any particular reputation? I don't know. My view is, and it was
9 also a prevalent view at the time, that Mr. Krajisnik was a patient man,
10 that he is a good negotiator, and that he was familiar with the mentality
11 of these people with whom he had spent his whole, entire life. He had the
12 reputation of a person who could talk reasonably with the Muslims about
13 certain issues that were at stake throughout all this time.
14 Q. Were you aware of how the Muslim political leadership regarded
15 Mr. Krajisnik?
16 A. Well, I can't know this as a fact, but my impression is, if
17 somebody wanted to talk to him -- actually, if they wanted to talk to
18 anybody, it would be him rather than anybody else from the leadership of
19 Republika Srpska.
20 Q. Did you ever hear or read or see, on television or in person, any
21 statements by Mr. Krajisnik which were abusive or aggressive or
22 disparaging of Muslims or the Muslim nation?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And is it right that towards the end of 1992 you left your post as
25 a member of the government of Republika Srpska?
1 A. It is true that I left the position, but not voluntarily. The
2 president of the government resigned, and by law, the entire government
3 had to resign. That's how I left my position. And later on I was never
4 elected as a member of the subsequent government. I got involved with
5 something else.
6 Q. Well, the something else, you took up a task, didn't you, of
7 formation of a Chamber of Commerce of Republika Srpska and, apart from
8 your own personal commercial activities, that's where you channelled your
9 energies from then onwards; is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I'm looking at the clock, and at the
12 same time, the back of my mind, the 65 ter summary. I wonder whether --
13 how much time you'd still need so as to see whether we should continue
14 after the break. About -- I'm not quite sure --
15 MR. STEWART: There's two things, Your Honour. I can say, first
16 of all, I'm very near the end; but secondly, it would, if that were
17 acceptable to Your Honour, be slightly more convenient just to wrap up the
18 last few questions after a break rather than before.
19 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you then still need?
20 MR. STEWART: I guess not more than about ten minutes or so, Your
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have a break now until 10 minutes to 1.00,
23 and if we all arrive in time, you might be able to finish at about 1.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, please proceed.
2 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I say straight away that I -- my
4 estimate of ten minutes, which still stands, was the questions I had in
5 mind, but Mr. Krajisnik has transmitted a number of points to me, so I
6 would probably require a little longer. Thank you, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll see.
8 MR. STEWART:
9 Q. Mr. Antic, may I show you, please, a document which has previously
10 been in evidence, exhibited more than once, in fact, but P43 is the most
11 convenient number. Now, it should be a document of several pages in your
12 own language, Mr. Antic; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, Mr. Antic, I know you have seen this document since you
15 arrived in The Hague. Let there be no mystery or surprise about how
16 that's happened.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts.
18 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we do not have a copy of that document
19 before us --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. -- it is a document of the 19th of
21 December, and if the questioning goes in the direction I anticipate, then
22 we might not to have a close look at the document.
23 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. We only wished to know which
24 document it was. Thank you.
25 MR. STEWART: Your Honour is absolutely right. Sorry. I
1 certainly hadn't intended to cause any hitches for the Prosecution. It's
2 the one numbered 93. It's that version, which has generally been taken as
3 the one that we will use normally.
4 Q. Mr. Antic --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Although now you're confusing me, because P43 is
6 number 100. But I do not mind. It's the 19th of December, and if we put
7 it on the ELMO, the copy which is presented to the witness, then we know
8 exactly what it is.
9 MR. STEWART: I'm sorry about the numbering confusion, Your
10 Honour. That comes from having a document which says on it P43 and P64A,
11 and so on. But it's unlikely to make a material difference this morning
12 -- this afternoon.
13 Q. Mr. Antic, my question is, therefore, had you ever seen this
14 document or some very similar document in essentially the same form before
15 you came to The Hague over the last few days?
16 A. Never.
17 Q. Now, if I tell you it's a document which has come to be very
18 widely known as Variants A and B, had you -- before you came here to The
19 Hague, had you heard of a document described or labelled as "Variants A
20 and B"?
21 A. Never.
22 Q. Were you present at any large meeting of the SDS in the Holiday
23 Inn in Sarajevo in late 1991 or early 1992?
24 A. As far as I can remember, no.
25 Q. Can you -- changing -- thank you. That's the end of that -- my
1 questions on that topic, Mr. Antic.
2 Can you remember what the public position of Mr. Krajisnik was
3 during the war on the question of whether Serbs should leave or remain in
5 A. You mean after Dayton?
6 Q. Well, at any time, before or after Dayton.
7 A. Yes. Mr. Krajisnik was always fighting for the survival of Serbs
8 in Sarajevo, as he was born in Sarajevo, and me too, and I think he always
9 strove to ensure that Serbs could continue to live in Sarajevo.
10 Q. Do you ever recall him taking a public position that Serbs should
11 leave Sarajevo?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Mr. Antic --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, would it become clearer if, especially
15 since we're talking about a long range in time, perhaps to make --
16 Sarajevo was a city which at times was divided and -- to make any
17 distinction in your questioning on this? I mean, parts of what now --
18 what used to be Sarajevo, because Pale was one of the municipalities, I --
19 "staying in Sarajevo" is an ambiguous expression if the context is not
21 MR. STEWART: I'm thinking about it, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You could specifically ask the witness, If you say
23 that Mr. Krajisnik was fighting for the survival of Serbs in Sarajevo, if
24 we split that up, would he have been in favour of Serbs remaining in Serb
25 Sarajevo before Dayton or would he also express himself on Serbs remaining
1 on, well, to say Muslim-controlled parts of Sarajevo.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Generally speaking, staying in
3 Sarajevo, and that solution for Sarajevo had to be found through
4 negotiations, how the government had to work. It was still very much an
5 open question, and nobody claimed to know what the final solution was
6 going to be. So it would all depend on a solution for Sarajevo. But
7 generally speaking, to be able to remain in Sarajevo, whatever the
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But when there was no solution yet, would he
10 promote Serbs remaining in non-Serb-controlled areas of Sarajevo?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In case there was no solution of
12 what kind?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you were talking about a solution, I take it.
14 During -- before Dayton, we know that there was a part of Sarajevo under
15 Serb control and a part of Sarajevo under Muslim or -- well, let's say
16 Muslim control. Did Mr. Krajisnik ever express his views on whether Serbs
17 should remain in those parts of Sarajevo that were under Muslim control?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I never heard of any public
19 statement to that effect.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Now, after Dayton, after Dayton, the --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After Dayton --
22 JUDGE ORIE: We still had a split, although the lines were a bit
23 different, perhaps, but we still had parts of what used to be greater
24 Sarajevo, that means including Pale, under Serb control, and other parts
25 under Muslim control. Did he, after Dayton, say that those who -- those
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Serbs that were living in Muslim-controlled part of Sarajevo, that they
2 should stay or not stay or ...
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what the general attitude of
4 the leadership and Mr. Krajisnik was, that they should stay where they
5 were. And as to who was going to do what later, well, quite a few
6 municipalities, such as Ilidza, for example, were given to Muslims,
7 according to Dayton, and at least 50 per cent were Serbs. So it would be
8 logical for them to stay where they were. So that was what Mr. Krajisnik
9 advocated, as well as all of us who could be expected to give some kind of
10 opinion. That was the logical conclusion, but unfortunately, people acted
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Stewart.
13 MR. STEWART: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Antic, during the time that you were in Pale in 1992, were you
15 aware of there being any detention facilities in the municipality of Pale?
16 No doubt there were some ordinary prisons that had always been there, but
17 were you aware of any substantial detention facilities?
18 A. I'm not familiar with anything of the sort. I don't think it ever
19 existed there. I don't know.
20 Q. Specifically, were you aware of any location in Pale where Muslims
21 were held in significant numbers during 1992?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Was there in fact any prison at all of any sort in Pale?
24 A. I don't think there was any prison at all. At least, I don't know
25 of any prison, any official prison.
1 Q. What was the entity known as Novi Privrednik?
2 A. Novi Privrednik was basically an idea to organise a shareholding
3 company so that many people would make small investments and for that
4 company thus created to start providing opportunities for economic
5 cooperation in a broader sense. So it was a shareholders' company, and
6 the idea was for it to be set up and grow. But as far as I can remember,
7 it never did make any headway. It was a simple shareholders' company.
8 Q. Was it somebody's brainchild?
9 A. I can't remember who the father was.
10 Q. When was this idea first -- well, when did this idea first spring
12 A. I can't remember exactly. Perhaps by the end of 1991, roughly
13 speaking. Maybe later.
14 Q. Did you have any involvement?
15 A. I knew of it, but I don't really think much was done about it.
16 Q. I'm not sure I asked you this: Did Mr. Krajisnik ever attend any
17 meeting of the government at which you were present in Pale, the
18 government of Republika Srpska?
19 A. I can't remember. I don't think so, but I can't remember exactly.
20 MR. STEWART: No further questions, Your Honour. Thank you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stewart.
22 Mr. Antic, you'll now be cross-examined by, I take it,
23 Mr. Margetts, counsel for the Prosecution.
24 Mr. Margetts, you may proceed.
25 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Cross-examined by Mr. Margetts:
2 Q. Mr. Antic -- sorry. Microphone is now on. Thank you, Your
4 Mr. Antic, you referred to a meeting that you attended of the
5 government of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 3rd of April, 1992, and
6 various comments that Alija Izetbegovic made at that meeting.
7 We're in receipt of a tape-recording of the session of the
8 Presidency which was held on the same day. Did you attend the session of
9 the Presidency as well?
10 A. No.
11 Q. At the session of the Presidency, Mr. Izetbegovic described the
12 problem in Bijeljina as follows. He said: "In Bijeljina, a paramilitary
13 unit entered the town, Arkan's unit. People were killed and wounded and
14 the killings are still going on."
15 Are they the same words he used to describe the situation in
16 Bijeljina in the government session?
17 A. I don't know exactly whether it was in the same way, exactly the
18 same words, but along these lines, certainly.
19 Q. But you understood the problem in Bijeljina was the killing of
20 civilians by Arkan's units?
21 A. As to this information, the fact that it was a problem that they
22 raised at that meeting, yes.
23 Q. Secondly, Mr. Izetbegovic proposed, when speaking to Kukanjac,
24 that the reserve TO forces should be mobilised, and he described the
25 crisis points as follows: He said: "The crisis points that I've
1 mentioned are Bijeljina, Kupres, Mostar, Banja Luka, and Bosanski Brod."
2 Did he describe all of those places as places that required some
3 security to be provided?
4 MR. MARGETTS: Sorry. I didn't receive the translation.
5 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't hear the witness.
6 MR. MARGETTS:
7 Q. Could you answer that question again, please. Are those the
8 places that Mr. Izetbegovic described as places where security was
10 A. As far as I can recall, he asked for intervention in Bijeljina
11 only, and those were crisis situations, the ones that you mentioned.
12 You're quite right.
13 Q. But do you understand that it's quite possible that in the
14 Presidency session he had in fact requested that security be provided for
15 places other than Bijeljina?
16 A. Perhaps at the Presidency meeting. I'm not aware of that. But at
17 the meeting where I was, no.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Antic.
19 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I have a binder of documents that I'd
20 like to provide to the Court and the parties, and also a copy to the
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, the first document that I'd like to
24 refer to is the document that's contained behind the tab 1A, and if
25 Mr. Antic could be shown that document. And Your Honour, if I could have
1 an exhibit number for this document, please.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P979, Your Honours, and the English
4 translation, P979.1.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please proceed.
6 MR. MARGETTS:
7 Q. Mr. Antic, do you have before you a document headed "Guidelines on
8 tasks, modes of action --"
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Yes, Mr. Antic. Do you have before you this document that is
11 headed "Guidelines on tasks, modes of action and functioning of defence
12 forces of state organs and subjects, in the field of economy and social
13 activities in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the state of
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Mr. Antic, this document was presented to the government on the
17 14th of July, 1992, at a session where you were present. Do you recall
18 seeing this document at that time?
19 A. No, I don't remember this document at all. This is the first I've
20 ever seen of it.
21 Q. Mr. Antic, to possibly assist you, I'd like to refer you to the
22 next document, which is at tab 1B, and that's a document titled "Operative
23 programme of measures to prevent social disruption in conditions of a
24 state of war," and is the previous exhibit number P583, tab 76.
25 Mr. Antic, this second document, P583, is a document that was
1 discussed at three different government sessions that you attended,
2 namely, the session on the 16th of July, 1992; the session on the 22nd of
3 July, 1992; and a further session I don't have before me.
4 Nevertheless, seeing that document, do you recognise that
6 A. I do.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, just for my -- you say a document dated
8 the 17th was discussed on the 16th. I'm just trying to ...
9 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. The document that you have
10 before you is one of the drafts of this document, and it was anticipated
11 on the 16th of July and delivered on the 17th.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 MR. MARGETTS:
14 Q. Mr. Antic, could I refer you to the first paragraph of this
15 document, and you'll see that the first paragraph reads as follows:
16 "Pursuant to Article 8 of the Law on Defence and with reference to the
17 Guidelines on the tasks and the methods of action and functioning of
18 defence forces, state authorities, and entities in the economy and public
19 services of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in conditions
20 of a state of war, the Government hereby adopts this operative programme
21 of measures to prevent social disruption in conditions of a state of war."
22 Does that assist you in reviewing the first document I showed you?
23 I now ask you to refer back to that, document 1A in your binder. And does
24 that assist you? You do remember this operative programme of measures.
25 And do you remember the fact that that operative programme of measures was
1 a programme intended to implement the guidelines at tab 1A of the binder?
2 A. I can't remember these guidelines. Of course, I do remember the
3 programme. Apparently it says in the preamble that on the basis of the
4 guidelines, they were entrusted with the task of preparing the programme
5 for the government. All that is fine. That was something that I was
6 myself involved in. But the first bit, I really don't know these
7 guidelines. I can't recall any of that. I've never set eyes on this.
8 Perhaps the president of the government had that, but ...
9 Q. In light of your knowledge as to how documents were prepared, the
10 fact that there's such a specific reference to the guidelines in this
11 first paragraph of the operative measures, can you say, looking at it
12 today, that it's clear that the operative programme was intended to
13 implement these guidelines?
14 A. At this moment, I really don't know what it says in the
15 guidelines. If that's what it says, probably, yes. Whether it's in its
16 entirety or in terms of some details, I can't comment on it because I
17 haven't read the text. If it says what you say it says, then apparently
18 it is in line with the guidelines. I can't tell you because I haven't
19 read the guidelines.
20 Q. Mr. Antic, I can refer you to section 6 of the guidelines. That's
21 the first document. And that's a section headed "Tasks in the field of
22 economy," and the first three -- the first paragraph under that heading is
23 paragraph 18. It's on page 7 of your copy, in tab 1A.
24 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I note that the witness is looking at
25 the operative measures. If the witness could be referred back --
1 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that you're referring to chapters, because
2 I take sections to be the ...
3 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, I'm referring to the chapters.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Chapter 6. You'll find it on page 7 of the B/C/S
7 version, paragraph 18.
8 MR. MARGETTS:
9 Q. Mr. Antic, there's a description of the tasks associated with the
10 field of economy, set out at paragraphs 18, 19, and 20. Could you read
11 those paragraphs and confirm that they were the tasks that were part of
12 your portfolio as minister for the economy.
13 A. Yes, I've read it.
14 Q. Thank you, Mr. Antic. We'll come back to some of those tasks
15 later on, but for the moment I'd now like to move to another topic, and
16 that's the topic of the Extended or Expanded Presidency, as it was
17 referred to in your evidence.
18 Mr. Antic, as a minister, you received the Official Gazette of the
19 Republic of Srpska, didn't you?
20 A. Well, you know, the government and the ministry received the
21 Official Gazette. Of course we did.
22 Q. And it was your habit to read it; that's correct, isn't it?
23 A. Yes. I read it, and if there was nothing interesting from my
24 point of view, for my particular sector, then I would not dwell on it for
25 too long.
1 Q. A decision that was published in the Official Gazette number 7 was
2 a decision on amending the constitution, that stated as follows, that:
3 "During a state of war, the Presidency is expanded with the following
4 members: The president of the National Assembly and the Prime Minister of
5 the government of the Serb Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
6 Did you read that decision on or around June 1992, when that
7 decision was passed?
8 A. I'm aware of the fact that this existed and that this was in place
9 for war conditions.
10 Q. Yes. And as far as you understand it, a War Presidency did in
11 fact function that included the three members - Karadzic, Koljevic, and
12 Plavsic - and also included Krajisnik and Djeric; that's correct, isn't
14 A. Karadzic, Koljevic, and Plavsic were the members of the
15 Presidency. I am not sure that the War Presidency, as such, existed. I
16 actually don't think so.
17 Q. Mr. Antic, you attended the November 1992 session of the Assembly
18 of the Serbian People that was held in Zvornik. That's correct, isn't it?
19 A. I don't remember. It is possible. Can you please jog my memory a
21 Q. Yes. One of the major issues on the agenda at this Assembly was
22 an issue raised by Milan Trbojevic, the deputy Prime Minister, and that
23 was the fact that the War Presidency was in fact functioning, despite the
24 failure to fulfil the technical precondition for its function, namely, the
25 formal declaration of a state of war. Do you recall that discussion?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Well, to jog your memory further: In the course of that
3 discussion at the Assembly at which you were present, Karadzic said that
4 he was all in favour of the Presidency because there's a lot of work to be
5 done, and if Mr. Koljevic and he are busy, he can have Biljana, and if she
6 is busy, then we have Mr. Krajisnik.
7 He said that, We'd never come into conflict in the Presidency, and
8 he said that they put all their ideas on the table and effectively they
9 decide things collectively.
10 Do you recall those comments being made by Mr. Karadzic?
11 A. I don't remember those words and I don't even remember that I was
12 present there.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, we're spending a lot of time again on
14 an issue that has been raised several, several times. This witness
15 testified that mostly these sessions of the -- he said in addition to the
16 Presidency proper, consisting of three members, those sessions - and he
17 was talking about either extended meetings of the Presidency or meetings
18 of the Expanded Presidency - he says: "Most of these -- most often or
19 mostly attended by the president of the Assembly ..."
20 I mean, do we have to go for ages again over -- the Chamber of
21 course is aware of the disagreement on whether it existed or not, but
22 there seems to be not major disagreement about presence and what was said
23 about it and also on -- I think there are quite some documents on presence
24 as well. So I wonder whether we have to go through it, again, until you
25 come up with something new.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour. Unfortunately, I had nothing new
2 in mind, and I thank you very much for your guidance on that. I'll
3 proceed to the next topic, which still involves the Presidency.
4 Q. On the 6th of July, 1992, at the 15th Session of the Presidency,
5 that was attended by, among others, Mr. Krajisnik, the various tasks for
6 the members of the Presidency were divided, and Mr. Krajisnik was
7 delegated with the task of commissioners, and also with the task as the
8 responsible person for the economy.
9 Mr. Antic, you referred in your evidence to meetings that you had
10 with Mr. Krajisnik where you discussed the economy. You said that that
11 was because he was an eminent businessman. But in fact, the reason was
12 that he was the representative in the Presidency responsible for that
13 portfolio. That's the reason you met with him, isn't it?
14 A. No. I have never heard that this was his duty. I just knew him,
15 and that's why I consulted him. I never knew that he was in charge of the
16 economic issues.
17 Q. Mr. Antic, also you said that it was the Presidency that commanded
18 the military. That's correct, isn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you said that you never attended any meetings of this War
21 Presidency. That's correct, isn't it?
22 A. That is correct.
23 Q. On the 27th of June, 1992, there was a meeting of the Presidency
24 where Radovan Karadzic was not present, and an order was issued by
25 Mr. Krajisnik, Koljevic, Plavsic, and Djeric, to the military, to cease
1 artillery action in the area of Dobrinja. It is the case, isn't it,
2 Mr. Antic, that it was not only Mr. Karadzic that had the power to order
3 the military.
4 A. Koljevic and Plavsic as well probably. I really don't know what
5 the division was among the three of them and what were their authorities,
6 whether he himself, on his own, was in charge of issuing orders or whether
7 that power was shared with Koljevic and Plavsic. I really don't know.
8 Q. But you're not in a position to dispute the document that I have
9 before me, are you? You're not in a position to dispute the fact that
10 these four people ordered the military, because you weren't at these
11 sessions, were you?
12 A. I don't know whether they issued orders or not. I was not there.
13 Q. Mr. Antic, you talked about some restricted functions you had as
14 minister of the economy, and we've seen the description of those functions
15 in the document that was Exhibit 1A, the guidelines. And that included
16 responsibility for ensuring production of goods necessary for the war
17 effort, didn't it?
18 A. Yes. When we're talking about the requirements at the time, we're
19 talking about food articles, and any other goods, because any war activity
20 requires a lot of different types of goods.
21 Q. Mr. Antic, if I could refer you back to the document that's at tab
22 1B of your materials, and that is the document that's Exhibit P583, tab
23 76, "The operative programme of measures to prevent social disruption."
24 And in particular, if I could refer to you paragraphs 12 and 13 of that
25 document. Do you have those paragraphs before you, Mr. Antic? Paragraph
1 12 states that: "There will be a wartime production plan for enterprises
2 in the defence industry and both the Defence Ministry and the Ministry of
3 the Economy are responsible for that."
4 That's a correct description of your role in the production of
5 military equipment, isn't it?
6 A. This is a correct description of the Ministry of Defence.
7 However, many companies were combined civilian and military, and that's
8 why both the Ministry of Economy and the Ministry of Defence were jointly
9 in charge, because the companies were of a dual nature.
10 Q. Paragraph 13 states -- refers to the requirements in terms of
11 supplying materiel and equipment and other sources, including weapons,
12 ammunition, and equipment, and that responsibility falls to the Defence
13 Ministry. Is it correct that that responsibility also fell within your
14 area of jurisdiction, that is, that was a responsibility of the Ministry
15 of the Economy as well?
16 A. It was by and large the Ministry of Defence. Some of it may have
17 concerned the Ministry of Economy, but as far as the materiel and the
18 technical equipment was concerned, it was primarily the Ministry of
19 Defence that was in charge.
20 Q. You say some of it may have concerned the Ministry of the Economy.
21 Are you saying that as Minister of the Economy it fell within your
22 jurisdiction to distribute weapons? Is that correct?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Nevertheless, although that was outside your jurisdiction, did you
25 in fact order or request that weapons be distributed to specific
2 A. Commanders? No.
3 Q. Did you request that weapons be issued to commanders of crisis
5 A. When I arrived in The Hague, I saw that document. It is a letter
6 - if we're talking about the same document, that is - a letter which I
7 signed in the absence of the minister of defence. This is a request to
8 somebody for some equipment under the control of the local staffs to be
9 transferred somewhere. This was not my job, but I did it in the absence
10 of the right person who was supposed to do it. I never knew whether this
11 was at all implemented, nor was it something I was concerned with. And it
12 was not a decision, it was not an order, it was just an accompanying
13 letter with a request of some other body.
14 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours, the letter that the witness is
15 referring to is the letter at tab 4, which is a letter on the head of
16 "Ministry of Economy," dated 24 May 1992, signed by the witness. If the
17 witness could refer to tab 4 and confirm that that is the letter he is
18 referring to, and if I could have an exhibit number.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar.
20 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'm informed that that is an exhibit
21 already. Apologies for that. It's Exhibit P529, tab 176.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's at least what your own list says.
23 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Mr. Antic, is this the document that you were shown when you
25 arrived in The Hague and you were just referring to?
1 A. I don't see it here. When I have it in front of me, then I can
2 tell you -- yes, that is the letter.
3 Q. So it is the case that in your position of minister of the
4 economy, you did perform tasks which fell within the jurisdiction of other
5 persons in the Republican government.
6 A. No. This was an exception. There was nobody there at the moment
7 to sign the accompanying letter with the request and to give this request
8 some sort of validity. I don't know who this was addressed to. I suppose
9 it was addressed to the Territorial Defence. I don't know whether this
10 was ever implemented. I believe it was the Territorial Defence, because
11 it was them who had at their disposal those obsolete type of weapons.
12 Q. And you know that Zoran Vitkovic was the commander of the Grbavica
13 Crisis Staff; correct?
14 A. I don't know. I don't know anybody.
15 Q. Did you ever hear from Mrs. Plavsic, or any other people at all,
16 or in the media, that there was a criminal who had committed a number of
17 crimes against Muslim civilians specifically, and Croat civilians as well,
18 by the name of Batko?
19 A. I didn't hear it from Plavsic. I'm familiar with the name, it
20 does ring a bell, but I don't know where I heard it. I know that it was
21 somebody's nickname. I don't know whether he was a soldier or police
22 officer or something of the kind. I don't know where I heard it or who
23 from, I just know that it does ring a bell.
24 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask one question?
25 You just said obsolete weapons. Is that true for the whole of
1 that letter or for -- I mean, what's obsolete on a 60-millimetre mortar?
2 What's obsolete on what is here called a sniper? Is that -- what's
3 obsolete about ammunition 7.62?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm speaking generally about the
5 Territorial Defence. The Territorial Defence always had old-fashioned
6 equipment and ammunition that they used for various exercises. That's
7 what I am saying. And I believe that there was a position of the
8 government that this should be transferred from unsafe places to somewhat
9 safer places. And I believe that the request of this kind was based on
10 that, and hence the accompanying letter. I really don't know what weapons
11 were old, what weapons were new. I was never interested in that. I never
12 followed that. I suppose that these people could not issue any weapons
13 without some sort of a government's approval. And since I had just joined
14 the government, I never paid too much attention to what this was and
15 whether it was at all important or not.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but let me just -- you said, as part of your
17 answer -- you don't know whether it was ever implemented: "I believe it
18 was the Territorial Defence, because it was them who had at their disposal
19 those obsolete type of weapons."
20 So it seems that you have a quite clear idea that this letter is
21 about an obsolete type of weapons, which I'm now asking you -- you gave a
22 long answer, but not specifically on my question -- what makes the list
23 here obsolete weapons, the ten items?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't know whether the
25 weapons were obsolete. I never saw it. Generally speaking, the
1 Territorial Defence had old-fashioned, obsolete weapons. Whether this was
2 another case of such weapons or not, I really don't know.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, you drew conclusions as to whom
4 it was addressed.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.
6 MR. MARGETTS:
7 Q. Mr. Antic, in the course of your evidence, you said that you only
8 had one meeting with Mr. Krajisnik, when you -- at the time that you were
9 a minister in the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Is that correct that
10 you only had one meeting with Mr. Krajisnik?
11 A. I said that we had our first meeting, and after that, I don't
12 remember whether we had any other meetings. I cannot be sure of that,
13 because I never made a record of whom I met, and when. I was just talking
14 about our first meeting, the meeting when we first were introduced to each
16 Q. There is material that we have which suggests that you had more
17 meetings with him, possibly not alone but in the presence of Radovan
18 Karadzic. Is that the case, that you did have more meetings in the
19 presence of Radovan Karadzic, or others, with Mr. Krajisnik?
20 A. What period of time are you referring to?
21 Q. At the time that you were a minister in the government of
22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and also during the time that you were a member of the
23 Ministerial Council of the Assembly of the Serb people.
24 A. It is possible. It is possible.
25 Q. And in fact, in around February 1992, you met with Karadzic and
1 Krajisnik, and they put a proposal to you about you going to Belgrade,
2 didn't they?
3 A. I don't remember. And what would have been the purpose of my
4 visit to Belgrade?
5 Q. At the start of 1992, there were efforts afoot to split the --
6 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask you one thing? The witness testified
7 this morning, but perhaps I misunderstood it, that he had five to six
8 meetings with Mr. Krajisnik. He said: "No, no, not very often. Perhaps
9 five to six times during my time in office, perhaps not even that often,"
10 and then we had a large line of -- we had questions on what he discussed
11 with Mr. Krajisnik.
12 So I have some difficulties in understanding, unless if you say
13 "at the time you were a minister." But I understood this to be during his
14 term of office.
15 MR. MARGETTS: I hope I haven't misspoken, but there are two terms
16 of office as a minister; his term of office as a minister in the Bosnia
17 and Herzegovina government and his term of office as a minister in the
18 Republika Srpska government.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I may have missed that point. Let me just
21 Yes, you're right. I made a mistake. I apologise.
22 MR. MARGETTS: And another matter I did refer to in my question
23 which hasn't been a subject of his evidence today was that he was a member
24 of the Ministerial Council, which the Court has received evidence on that
25 in the form of the minutes of the Ministerial Council. And that, too, was
1 prior to his appointment as a minister for Republika Srpska.
2 Your Honour, I note the time.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. MARGETTS: So possibly if we could continue tomorrow.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. You'd rather not stop. I do understand.
6 The Defence remained well within the time limits. The witness was
7 scheduled, I think, for four hours, and the time taken -- I have to check
8 that exactly. Approximately three and a half hours.
9 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I think we'd originally estimated, just
10 from memory, it was three or three and a half.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. STEWART: I very recently upped the estimate, but then found,
13 as it turned out, that we came really, for practical purposes, very near
14 to the original estimate.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Looking at the binder, Mr. Margetts, I take it
16 that you're aware of what is not a rule but guidance, but is about 60 per
17 cent. Would you please keep that in mind.
18 Mr. Antic, I would like to instruct you not to speak with anyone
19 about the testimony you have given until now and you're still about to
20 give. So don't speak with anyone about it. And we'd like to see you
21 back, although tomorrow, not in the morning hours, but in the afternoon.
22 We'll adjourn until tomorrow, at a quarter past 2.00, in Courtroom II.
23 MR. STEWART: May I just add a coda to that, with respect, and
24 it's intended to be as much for Mr. Antic's, if you like, protection and
25 support as anything. It is extremely awkward sometimes, we've found, for
1 witness who are in The Hague. They often find themselves in very close
2 proximity to other witnesses in the same case. Your Honour will
3 appreciate, of course, Mr. Antic, the technical position, of course, is
4 that they are free human beings and two witnesses in the same case can
5 talk to each other about football or whatever they wish, but we would very
6 respectfully suggest that, as far as possible, Mr. Antic might feel that
7 it was better to avoid being drawn into social contact with other
8 witnesses in this case, just for his own protection and to ensure that
9 nobody's tempted to cross over that line.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Antic, I don't know whether you followed it, but
11 when I instructed you not to speak with anyone else about your testimony,
12 Mr. Stewart has drawn my attention to the fact that you might see other
13 persons which might be interested to discuss with you your testimony.
14 Perhaps even if you want to talk about football, perhaps you'd delay that
15 until the next football match and refrain from it this evening and
16 tomorrow morning. We all expect your testimony to finish tomorrow. So to
17 refrain from social contacts of those with whom you might be very well
18 able to speak about football, but also about other subjects.
19 Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, thank you. I don't wish to protract
21 today's session, but I have a quick scheduling clarification which I seek,
22 and that is, anticipating that we'll conclude this witness's testimony
23 tomorrow, will we be starting with the next witness tomorrow? That was
24 not entirely clear to me, based on the information we received.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart. You were asked last time not to
1 immediately follow the next witness --
2 MR. STEWART: Yes. May I leave it this way, Your Honour: We're
3 tomorrow afternoon, aren't we?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we are.
5 MR. STEWART: If we were sitting tomorrow afternoon, the answer
6 would, I'm afraid, be it's incredibly difficult. May I explore that in
7 the course of this afternoon?
8 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the Prosecution would like to know for
9 their scheduling and for preparation.
10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, if they want to know, then the answer
11 -- I'm trying to be helpful, Your Honour. If they want to know now, then
12 the answer will be, no, we won't be able to follow. What I was intending
13 to explore in the afternoon was whether, given the way the timetable is
14 shaping up, whether we could in fact bring that witness forward to start
15 immediately tomorrow if that were helpful.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You have no preference, but you just want to know.
17 MR. STEWART: If it doesn't matter to Mr. Tieger or the
18 Prosecution or indeed to the Trial Chamber if we say we would like to
19 start that witness on Wednesday morning, then the Defence will be happy to
20 have that simply clear now.
21 JUDGE ORIE: At least if you're not getting into trouble by the
22 end of the week, we'll leave it to you.
23 MR. STEWART: We don't anticipate a difficulty about that, Your
24 Honour, at the other end of the week.
25 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, as you noted, I was simply seeking
1 enhanced understanding of the situation, not taking a position on it.
2 Insofar as I'm aware, that's not a problem, but I needed to hear what the
3 situation was before we could figure out what our response was.
4 MR. STEWART: I'm just really trying to be helpful.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We now expect the Defence to start the
6 examination of the next witness on Wednesday afternoon, and if they want
7 to avoid all risks, they should inform the -- and if they want to start on
8 Tuesday in the afternoon, immediately following this witness, then they
9 should inform the Prosecution within one hour from now.
10 MR. STEWART: That's very helpful, Your Honour. Thank you.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So I said already that we adjourn. Courtroom
12 II tomorrow, a quarter past 2.00.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.54 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 8th day of
15 November 2005, at 2.15 p.m.