1 Tuesday, 8 November 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone. Mr. Registrar, would you
6 please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Mr. Stewart, if my intuition would tell me that you'd need more
11 time for Davidovic and that you'd be happy with a short extension of time,
12 would that be a good intuition?
13 MR. STEWART: That would be a precisely correct intuition, Your
15 JUDGE ORIE: You have time until the 21st of November, if that
16 helps you.
17 MR. STEWART: I'm very grateful for that, Your Honour, thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Krajisnik, it may have been a bit unclear
19 last week when you initially had asked for time to address us and where it
20 was not immediately clear that you were not only considering it but that
21 you would like to do that, I think last Friday I said that an opportunity
22 would be given to you early next week. To be quite honest with you, I'd
23 forgotten about it yesterday, so the Chamber would like to give you an
24 opportunity now to address the matter that you had in mind.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to thank the Trial
1 Chamber for giving me this opportunity to address them. What I'm going to
2 say now I would kindly ask the Trial Chamber to reply to me in writing and
3 I will explain why I'm requesting this. And I also would like to ask you
4 to bear with me while I talk about the problems that I have.
5 I don't have any other opportunity to speak. If I have a problem,
6 I have to address my Defence attorney first, then the Registry, and
7 finally you. This is the road that I have taken so far and I have come to
8 you and the first question I have for you is the following: An indictment
9 has arrived from Paris. Actually, an accusation came from Paris. A
10 family accused four persons amongst whom myself. I have addressed the
11 Registry, the Registry got in touch with --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I do not know what is the issue you're
13 raising. I'm just asking you whether it's matter that's suitable for open
14 session or not. If not, then we'll turn into private session.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would kindly request for all of
16 this to be said in public.
17 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I say straight away I don't wish to
18 cut across Mr. Krajisnik, although I am doing that. There is in fact,
19 although strictly speaking the matter that we think Mr. Krajisnik is going
20 to raise is one in which we don't really act for him, but there is -- and
21 we do say this to the Court, there is one particular reason why we
22 consider that Mr. Krajisnik would be very well advised to go into private
23 session, and I'm happy then to say what that point is. If Mr. Krajisnik
24 and the Trial Chamber then consider that back into -- or of course, the
25 Trial Chamber consider back into open session is a good idea. But I would
1 like, perhaps in case it helps Mr. Krajisnik, to mention what that point
2 is in private session.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Krajisnik, we will go in private session.
4 Not because the matter has to remain in the non-public area, but just in
5 view of what Mr. Stewart just said, and where the Chamber is more or less
6 blind in the matter because we've got no idea on what you're going to
7 raise, and it's easier to go public once you've been in private. You can
8 always inform the public exactly what happened, you can make the
9 transcript public. The other way around is far more difficult and far
10 more risky. So we'll now first turn into private session. And a final
11 decision whether this is a matter that should be in --
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 18243-18248 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
17 Mr. Krajisnik, please raise your next point.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know whether my next point
19 has to do with this trial, but I would kindly ask you to bear with me. I
20 have exhausted all possibilities to deal with the issues because I am in
21 Detention Unit. I believe that all the issues I'm going to raise have to
22 do with this trial.
23 The first issue is Mrs. Biljana Plavsic. Mrs. Biljana Plavsic has
24 written a book. She's serving her sentence in Sweden and I'm indicted
25 here in The Hague. She has presented quite a number false facts about the
1 war and about the situation that prevailed during the war. I have been
2 prevented by the Registry and the procedure as such that prevents me to
3 speak publicly. I also do not have any possibility to sue somebody for
5 One of the things that she has written in her book is that during
6 the war in my house there was ammunition that we used to sell to the
7 Muslims --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I think --
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: I checked with my colleagues. First of all,
11 Mr. Krajisnik, this Chamber, although it is aware that the book was
12 published, I mean it was broadly announced in the press about the book, on
13 purpose refrained from reading one single syllable of that book. That's
14 also done in fairness to you. So therefore, the content of the book, if
15 you talk about it at this moment, you would bring something to our
16 attention which you consider to be untrue which is not, and on purpose,
17 not --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: You should be aware of the risks of that. Whether or
20 not you could sue her for -- I mean, writing lies in books is, under
21 certain circumstances, not allowed and could be illegal against other
23 We saw also that Mrs. Plavsic is on the list of witnesses
24 presented by your counsel. Of course, the most direct way of gaining
25 knowledge of what Ms. Plavsic remembers from those times is to call her as
1 a witness to -- She'll then have to make a solemn declaration, and if she
2 would then not tell us the truth, she would be liable for contempt, for
3 perjury. So that's a general observation in this respect.
4 If you would like to continue and add a few matters, you may do
5 so, although it's not common, neither is it very appropriate, to discuss
6 the testimony that has not yet been given to this Chamber. So to
7 speculate on what she would say if she was to be called as a witness, or
8 to speculate or draw the attention to the Chamber that she presents lies
9 in books, which books we have not read, is not very common, is not very
10 helpful at this moment. But if there's any matter in this relation, and
11 keeping in mind what I just said you'd like to bring to our attention,
12 please do so.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, but I would
14 really, really like to be given the opportunity say everything I had
15 prepared to say.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what you have prepared. I ask you to
17 keep in mind what I just said, and I invite you to proceed. So go ahead,
18 Mr. Krajisnik.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have said that I am unable to
20 speak publicly or dispute anything in the media, and that goes for every
21 prisoner. This woman is a prisoner, and she wrote two books, and all the
22 references to me in those books are simple lies. I'm not scared of a
23 single thing that might be brought to the attention of this Court, because
24 everything can be proven. And I've just mentioned one thing which would
25 be against my interest if it were true. But if you can check it, you'll
1 see that it is not true.
2 The thing is, I have no money to sue, and even when I was a child
3 I never complained about anyone to anyone else. But now apparently
4 Mrs. Plavsic is involved in this kind of conspiracy in the media, trying
5 to make me into a scapegoat for everything. And could I perhaps somehow
6 communicate with her publicly and therefore deny everything.
7 And also, perhaps the Registry could provide the services of a
8 lawyer so that I can sue her for libel, and then you would have a
9 ready-made case, basically, in as far as my credibility is concerned.
10 And I'm grappling with this incredible problem here. Okay, you
11 haven't read the book, but my family back home, my friends, they have been
12 reading these books, and they're living under very difficult
13 circumstances. And when people are poor, they're more gullible. They
14 tend to believe everything. But the thing is, I'm a prisoner; she's a
15 prisoner. So I'm in a situation in which I'm not able to argue in the
16 media, and she's writing things and saying incredible things. And I think
17 Mrs. Plavsic has heard quite a few things of -- from so-called "claras."
18 If you remember, we've had a "clara" in the course of this case. So why
19 doesn't she name any names?
20 And now my third point, if I may. There was a mini-trial here, so
21 to say, regarding my means, financial situation, and it was presided over
22 by Judge Orie, and it was indicated that I have a holiday home and some
23 land. And the authorities received that information, and they destroyed
24 the house.
25 I'm not in a position to do anything. I'm not in a position to go
1 to Sarajevo and sort things out. So I would really like to appeal to the
2 secretariat -- to the Registry, that is, to whoever else who is in charge
3 of this mini-trial, so to say, to come to my assistance, because I have
4 nobody else to appeal to.
5 And something else as well: The witnesses who appeared here
6 before this Court, you mentioned Mr. Davidovic. He said a whole range of
7 things that were published in the media: That I had a fight with Radovan
8 Karadzic, that I stole some money, this, that, and the other. Please, can
9 you get the prosecutors back there in the Republika Srpska to establish
10 the real facts and then either sue Mr. Davidovic or myself. And I mean,
11 the witness was here in this Court.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I do see that you are facing the
13 problems every detainee has in looking after his interests at the other
14 side of the prison walls.
15 As far as Ms. Plavsic is concerned and whether she did write down
16 lies, of course not having read it, I couldn't even think about saying
17 anything about it. I do understand that you are concerned by the public
18 exchange of opinions on what happened and what is a lie and what is not a
19 lie. But be assured that there is nothing to contradict, if she ever
20 presented any lie in books, if what she wrote, what she said is not in
21 evidence, and as I explained before, this Chamber on purpose, the members
22 of this Chamber do on purpose not read these kind of books because we want
23 to be informed about what happened in this courtroom and nowhere else.
24 I also do understand your concern about the media. Again, this is
25 not a trial through the media. Now and then a press publication appears.
1 Also in this trial it has been discussed a couple of times what the value
2 of such press publications is. It has been discussed also now and then
3 what the role of the media -- or at least some evidence has been presented
4 on the role of the media in either deceiving people or establishing what
5 happened. That's a situation of which I fully understand that you don't
6 like it. It's not uncommon, however. In some countries there are
7 prohibition on publishing on matters directly related to trials. In
8 others, such rules do not exist.
9 Whether or not the Registry of this Tribunal has a task in
10 providing you with legal assistance is, first of all, something to decide
11 by the Registry. Our rules until now, as far as I'm aware of but I might
12 not know all the details of the rules on detention situations, provide for
13 assigning counsel in order to defend yourself before this Tribunal and not
14 in any civil matters somewhere else. You have to go through that with the
15 Registry. And whether or not you're entitled to get assistance from the
16 Registry and whether -- and to what extent you would be entitled to get
17 such assistance is, first of all, for the Registry to decide. If there's
18 any decision taken by the Registry which can be reviewed either by the
19 Chamber or the President of this Tribunal, your counsel will certainly
20 know how to assist you in lodging such an appeal. I take it that's
21 directly related to your detention situation, and I therefore take it that
22 you could seek their advice on the matter.
23 The second issue you raised is the mini-trial on your finances.
24 It's more or less the same because it seems to be, if not a civil matter,
25 then perhaps a matter of administrative law in your country. The only
1 thing I would say at this moment, if this changes your personal financial
2 situation in a way which might be of relevance for the position taken at
3 the end of what you called the mini-trial, then of course your counsel
4 will know how to raise the matter, and then I think it's first to be
5 addressed to the Registry, change in financial situation due to
6 circumstances not under your control. But whether or not there is a duty
7 for this Tribunal or the Registry to come to your assistance, to do
8 something against what authorities are doing to property in Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina, I have no opinion about that. Again, the first one to decide
10 on these matters, because they're not directly related to this trial, is
11 the Registrar. And there again, if the Registrar takes any decision which
12 is subject to an appeal or review to the Chamber or the President, counsel
13 will be in a position to tell you how to lodge such an appeal or how to
14 request such a review.
15 The third matter is the testimony of Mr. Davidovic. I do
16 understand, although it's not common nor appropriate to comment in public
17 on his testimony in saying that he lies. Of course when we will evaluate
18 all the evidence, you may draw the attention to what the Defence considers
19 more or less reliable and more or less credible evidence. We'll take that
20 into consideration. But it is published -- if it's published, as you say,
21 then that's one of the effects of a public trial. If newspapers publish
22 on open sessions of this court, even if you would disagree and even if you
23 would consider the evidence given in this court not to be evidence of the
24 truth, then nevertheless the public character of the trial at this stage
25 is of greater importance than your personal disagreement with what has
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 been said. Not publishing on it, if there is no decision which prevents
2 publication of the relevant part of the trial, would seriously damage the
3 public character and, with that, the fairness of this trial.
4 I will not allow you to further enter into the Davidovic matter.
5 If you want to sue Mr. Davidovic for libel, again I would have to discuss
6 that with the other Judges, but halfway a trial starting civil proceedings
7 for telling not the truth in a different court where this Chamber still
8 has to evaluate it is not only uncommon, it would be inappropriate because
9 it would create a kind of a shadow trial somewhere else in a court which
10 has not heard all of the evidence. And one of the things the Chamber
11 would have to consider is whether that should be understood as
12 interference with witnesses.
13 If the Prosecution, unhappy with what the witnesses you are
14 calling, would start any proceedings against your witnesses in a civil
15 court somewhere else in the world, that would really give rise to serious
16 thoughts on whether and how to prevent such a thing to happen.
17 I'm just giving you some general observations in this respect. Is
18 there anything else, Mr. Krajisnik, you would like to raise in -- before
19 this Trial Chamber?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With regard to Biljana Plavsic, just
21 one point of detail that you perhaps did not quite grasp, or maybe it was
22 mistranslated: As any other prisoner, I'm not in a position to
23 communicate publicly with the media. I cannot write a letter to the
24 paper that published all that, this is incorrect and that is untrue, and
25 so on and so forth, because it would mean that I would incur a penalty.
1 And there are people here who had contacted the media and they have
2 incurred penalties already.
3 And now I'd like to move on to my next point.
4 JUDGE ORIE: May I just briefly comment on that. Mr. Krajisnik,
5 first of all, in most systems you would find a difference in regime
6 between those who are detained during and prior to trial. Well, let's say
7 the pre-trial and trial detention, and which are not in a situation where
8 a sentence is enforced. There's usually -- there's a difference in
10 There is another matter, that is that the detention you're in at
11 this moment is governed by the rules in this Tribunal, whereas
12 Mrs. Plavsic, from what I understand, is serving her sentence in Sweden
13 and might be under different rules. The enforcement of sentence in Sweden
14 is under the supervision of this Tribunal according to our rules. I will
15 at least draw the attention of the Registrar to the fact that you
16 expressed serious concerns about the consequences of the difference in
17 regime, and I take it that he'll then consider whether it is any matter to
18 be further pursued with the Swedish authorities and whether or not the
19 Chamber - or this Tribunal because the Chamber is not directly involved in
20 enforcement of sentences - should take any action or should accept the
21 situation as it is. That's in relation to Mrs. Plavsic.
22 Your next point.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You are aware of the fact that my
24 property in Republika Srpska has been recorded and there are snapshots of
25 all that. And the authorities there have reached a decision on the basis
1 of which those who are unavailable to The Hague Tribunal whilst indicted
2 are not in a position to dispose of their own property.
3 Now, I'm co-owner of a number businesses, and this provision
4 refers only to those who make themselves unavailable to the Tribunal. But
5 authorities at Sokolac simply don't want to listen to this argument and
6 everything is frozen, and it has to do with my ability to co-finance this
7 defence, and it is about my whole life, basically. So why am I addressing
8 the Trial Chamber? Because basically, apparently, these authorities are
9 able to act on the basis of a haphazard decision and I can do nothing
10 about it.
11 Now, my next point: Thanks to you, Your Honours, I have received
12 a computer, a PC. And I contacted my lawyer. I've got a computer in my
13 room at the detention centre. Now, apparently, I'm supposed to return all
14 the computers, and there's a huge amount of data stored in those computers
15 that I need in order to prepare for my defence. Can you perhaps have an
16 exemption for those whose trial is already under way? They are telling me
17 that we will get new computers, but I don't want any new computers. I
18 would like to keep my old one until the end of this trial because all this
19 data is stored on that computer.
20 And I've got two more brief points. I've talked to the Registry -
21 I don't know if you remember - about the conditions for my work and my
22 participation in my own defence. One of the conditions was the place
23 where I spend my time, that is to say my prison cell. And there are lots
24 of materials there, and I asked for a space to put all that stuff, and I'm
25 unable to work properly because this hasn't been sorted.
1 And my last point. I have a disagreement with my lawyer on this
2 one. Whilst my lawyer is behaving in an impeccable way, I have lived up
3 to all my duties with regard to the preparation of this defence, and this
4 was the main reason why you rejected the extension of the trial, and I
5 would just like to appeal to you to allow me to explain to you about all
6 the work and all the preparations that I've made for this case. And could
7 you perhaps put all that in writing, because that would make it easier for
8 me to know how to act. I'm powerless because I'm in your power,
9 basically. I'm not a free man.
10 And thank you very much for your patience. Thank you to all of
11 you; the Trial Chamber, the Prosecution, and my own Defence.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik. First of all, whether you
13 can or cannot dispose of your property in your country, if there is any
14 change in circumstances, that could be how easy it is to dispose of any
15 property. I'm not saying it is, but it might be relevant. And then it
16 should be formally put in writing to the Registrar with a request to
17 review its decision on your contribution to the costs of your defence, and
18 then the Registrar will take a decision to see whether it is any change at
19 all, whether the difficulties to dispose of it were not taken into
20 consideration yet, whether it is anything new, and then the Registrar will
21 take a decision on that, and that decision is subject to review by the
23 So therefore I would say it's a procedural matter, and we cannot
24 revisit these matters, and we are not the Judges of the behaviour of the
25 authorities in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but to the extent that it has --
1 that it affects your situation here and the decisions taken in your
2 respect, and if there are any changes, then you may, of course, raise the
4 Second one, data on computer. The Chamber will inquire into the
5 change of computers and will also inquire into the question whether this
6 would result in a substantial loss of data available to you. Mainly data
7 from an old computer can be copied to the new computer, and I do not know
8 whether and for what reasons computers are replaced, but it's something
9 we'll bring to the attention -- your concerns will be brought to the
10 attention, and we'll inquire into the consequences of such a decision.
11 About the space of the materials, it is a matter which at least
12 we'll draw the attention of the Registrar to that fact again. I take it
13 that it has been discussed one or more times. I am not aware of the
14 limits and the reasons why the result is such that you're not satisfied by
15 the decisions taken by the Registry. If it becomes really an issue which
16 would affect the fairness of this trial, then the Chamber will not
17 hesitate to pursue the matter. Until now we'll try to get more
18 information about what keeps you apart from the Registry.
19 I'm afraid I did not fully understand your last point where you
20 said there was no disagreement, that you wanted to explain what work you
21 had to do in the preparation of the trial. It was not perfectly clear to
22 me what the purpose of that exercise would be. If you would like to
23 further explain that, you may do so at this moment.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Quite the contrary. There is a
25 difference, but I don't want to speak on behalf of my Defence team.
1 It's a very broad subject. I just wanted to express my
2 disagreement here, and I don't want to enter into any kind of argument or
3 discussion about it, but at any moment I can prove my own participation.
4 I just wanted to express my disagreement.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, then that's on the record. There might
6 be some confusion as to participation in preparation of the case and
7 financial contribution, I am not aware, but since you said that you just
8 wanted to express that you disagreed with your counsel in respect of the
9 way you participate in the preparation of the case, and I take it that it
10 relates also to hiring or funding assistance, then at least it is on the
12 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, we're just -- I'm afraid we're
13 temporarily inconvenienced and so is Mr. Krajisnik by the fact that
14 Mr. Karganovic has had to leave court for what I think is a very short
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's do the following: The point was not
17 exactly clear. You said, "I just want to limit myself to expressing my
18 disagreement at this moment." If it needs any further attention, we'll
19 hear from you and most likely after Mr. Karganovic has been available for
20 consultation, both to you and for Mr. Stewart and Mr. Josse.
21 Is there any other issue to be raised at this moment?
22 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, I wonder if I might simply - and
23 it would be very brief, but just -- just very quickly run through those
24 points, just to make the position clear from the Defence team's point of
1 Your Honour has really alluded to this anyway on the question of
2 any change of circumstances. I'm talking about the financial matter. Of
3 course Your Honour is absolutely right: The Defence team, we are aware of
4 the rules, we're aware of the provisions. Of course we monitor it as
5 responsibly as we can, and Mr. Krajisnik knows that he can at any time
6 raise such matters with us, and if there is a case for such an application
7 to the Registry, then of course we will advise him accordingly and so on.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I didn't expect anything else.
9 MR. STEWART: No, indeed, Your Honour. I wanted to confirm that.
10 Secondly, Your Honour, so far as the question of the computer is
11 concerned, may I say first all that as -- we had discussed this issue with
12 Mr. Krajisnik -- going into any details, the question of loss of data
13 appears to Mr. Krajisnik's Defence team to be a non-issue, that the
14 transmission -- transfer of data from one computer to another is a soluble
15 solution. And with respect, Your Honour, I suggest that Your Honours have
16 many other things to do, that you do not spend your valuable time on that
17 issue because that is a non-issue.
18 The question of the --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, it takes us exactly three minutes.
20 We'll ask, Is there any problem in transferring data from one computer to
21 another, to the new computer Mr. Krajisnik will receive? If the answer is
22 no, then we have dealt with it in three minutes. And, of course, then the
23 Chamber would wonder why the matter could not be resolved either -- why
24 Mr. Krajisnik seems to be concerned about a non-issue, and it certainly
25 would not help him to draw the attention of the Chamber to serious
2 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I was trying even to save Your Honour
3 three minutes because it is a non-issue, I assure you. There is another
4 issue, though. Your Honour, the position is this: I had in fact this
5 morning drafted a letter. The only reason I have not yet sent it is
6 because I wanted it translated into Serbian for Mr. Krajisnik to see, to
7 Mr. McFadden, who wrote the letter to Mr. Krajisnik in relation to this
8 issue. May I suggest, Your Honour, because I will deal with that
9 extremely quickly and that letter will probably be delivered by hand to
10 the UNDU later today or first thing tomorrow morning. Would Your Honours
11 simply await that letter because I do believe that my letter will explain
12 that issue. Of course it will be addressed to Mr. McFadden, but Your
13 Honours will see what the issue is, and it isn't loss of data.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Do I then understand that you suggest to send the
15 Chamber a copy of that letter?
16 MR. STEWART: I had in fact -- I will say now, Your Honour, I had
17 in the last paragraph of that letter, I had -- I've indicated to
18 Mr. McFadden why I have copied it to Your Honour, and I believe
19 Mr. McFadden will see entirely why I have done and won't have any
20 problems. In fact, I was copying it to Mr. Van de Vliet in the Registry
21 and to Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you would say now in the public hearing say that
23 Mr. Van de Vliet is invited to share the content of that letter by sending
24 a copy to the Chamber, then --
25 MR. STEWART: I have no problem whatever with that, Your Honour.
1 It is a practical matter and Your Honours will see what it is. I make --
2 who knows what the solution will be to that, Your Honour.
3 So far as the, if I may call it the French matter, Your Honours,
4 as a label, the French matter is concerned, Your Honour can see our
5 position on that. We do see it as our function, of course, to protect and
6 Mr. -- and advise Mr. Krajisnik in relation to anything that has a direct
7 impact on this trial or his detention and to take up the cudgels, if
8 necessary, on his behalf. That's our responsibility. As far as that's
9 concerned, in a sense we can only advise him to take advice in appropriate
10 quarters. That's what any lawyer could do.
11 So far as Mrs. Plavsic is concerned, we, with respect, suggest
12 Your Honour has correctly identified what is the problem, which is that
13 Mrs. Plavsic's freedom of expression is subject to whatever is happening
14 in Sweden; Mr. Krajisnik's freedom of expression is subject to whatever
15 restrictions apply to him here in the United Nations Detention Unit.
16 Perhaps there's a gap, perhaps there's a problem, but Your Honours, on the
17 face of it, it wouldn't appear immediately to be a matter for the
18 jurisdiction of Your Honours.
19 So far as Mr. Davidovic is concerned, we say nothing because the
20 issue is before the court and we have to make the submissions by the 21st
21 of November, and that's the way that we, as Mr. Krajisnik's lawyers,
22 propose to deal with it.
23 On the last point, Your Honour, we have to say that the
24 disagreement with -- which Mr. Krajisnik has expressed, we didn't
25 understand that bit either, and with respect, we still don't quite. We
1 see a disagreement's been registered, we're not sure what it is today, but
2 of course we know what we discussed with Mr. Krajisnik outside court and
3 at the UNDU, but whatever Your Honours heard today in court hasn't --
4 well, it hasn't assisted us to know any more.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Finally, before we return to what is at the
6 centre of our attention, that is to further hear the testimony of
7 witnesses, Mr. Krajisnik, there are a few matters which the Chamber feels
8 that it could enquire into and should keep -- should monitor it in a way
9 which would prevent that any unfairness would result from it, but there
10 are many points where the Chamber might not be in a position to do so.
11 That does not mean that the Chamber is blind for the frustration it can
12 cause if you are in a situation where you are limited in your
13 possibilities and where you feel that you would need another situation to
14 go against what you consider to be unfair actions of others. We're not
15 blind for that, but it does not always mean that it is within our
16 jurisdiction to take any action on it. I just want you to understand that
17 if we cannot take action, it's not because we are not aware of what it
18 means to you.
19 Yes. You would like to say one or two more words, but then I
20 would like to conclude. Yes.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to thank to all of
22 you for having listened to me. That's all.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, we'll now proceed with what we're here
24 for, that is to hear the testimony of the witness. That's Mr. Antic.
25 Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness into the
2 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, whilst the witness is coming in, I do
3 have a further bundle of materials to provide to the Court. I'd just like
4 to explain that the binder of materials that I've previously provided and
5 the materials I'm providing now, it's not intended that all of the
6 materials that have been provided will be utilised. It's just difficult
7 to anticipate which ones will be utilised and which ones will not.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I was a bit very -- Mr. Margetts, since I have
9 drawn your attention to the limited time available and when I said looking
10 at your binder that you come up with even more documents, but I do
11 understand that you'll use them in such a selective way that it doesn't
12 bring you in any problem with the scheduling.
13 MR. MARGETTS: That's my intention, Your Honour, and I hope that's
14 what occurs.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is quite confident that you're able to do
17 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour. And just on that matter,
18 at the start of the cross-examination we referred to some minutes of the
19 64th session of the Presidency, and that appears at tab 9, and I'd like to
20 introduce that document as an exhibit and receive an exhibit number.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar, that would be number --
23 THE REGISTRAR: P980, Your Honours.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I also announced that one of the exhibits used with
1 one of the previous witnesses has, by mistake, not been attributed a
2 number and has not been decided upon. We'll not do it at this very moment
3 because Mr. Antic is here now, but just to announce for the parties.
4 Mr. Antic, I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the
5 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony
6 yesterday. I also apologise that you had to wait for quite some time, but
7 we had to deal with some procedural issues. Mr. Margetts will now
8 continue his cross-examination.
9 Mr. Margetts.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
11 WITNESS: BOZIDAR ANTIC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Cross-examined by Mr. Margetts: [Continued]
14 Q. Mr. Antic, yesterday in your examination-in-chief you referred to
15 a stock company by the name of Novi Privrednik. I'd like to play a
16 portion of an intercepted telephone conversation to you and I'd like you
17 to listen to that carefully and pay attention to the references to Novi
18 Privrednik. You'll also note in this portion of this intercepted
19 telephone conversation that there are references to the Ministerial
20 Council, and if you could pay careful attention to those references as
22 The telephone conversation that I'd like to play, or the portion
23 of the conversation I'd like to play is referred to at tab 14 of the
24 bundle of documents presented, and if that could be given an exhibit
25 number. If at this stage the copy for the witness could be held and
1 provided to him after I've completed a series of questions.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number?
3 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P981, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: 981. I take it that the booth have been provided
5 with copies of this transcript.
6 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll then go the usual way, that is if the --
8 if the audio goes too quickly, that the translation will continue on the
9 basis of the written transcript and that one of the interpreters checks
10 whether what is said is reflected in the transcript.
11 [Audiotape played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Ones were for, ones were against
13 and since ...
14 No problem, I can arrange it. Just it wouldn't be right if you
15 were to go there without my knowledge, it would seem ridiculous.
16 I'm telling you; I have just consulted Radic and Jaskic. So can
17 we go?
18 No problem, just see how much it is.
19 How many totally irrelevant misunderstandings are there? We have
20 a complete concept of a polycentric development. Therefore, centres must
21 exist, and the centres will be developed more powerfully, Banja Luka and
22 Bileca, Bijeljina and Trebinje, and Sarajevo and Novi Sad, and Nis, and I
23 don't know, and Knin and so on and so forth. So between our concept and
24 the concept of this here, what's its name, your concept, there is no
25 essential difference. Only, not a single move should be made which will
1 not be 100 per cent agreed on.
2 We are not going to do that. We just have to accelerate the
3 constitution of the Serbian government.
4 Clear, and in it we will permit Serbs to organise a little region
5 wherever it's possible in the territories, if they can organise it, let
6 them do it.
7 Last time, you saw it, they agreed at the Assembly of Krajina; who
8 are we as a region in comparison to the Serbian constitution, to the
9 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 That's how they found themselves an executive committee.
12 I see. Somebody attacked there about princedoms. I thought about
13 Eastern Herzegovina more, but it is all the same for each of us.
14 No. I did it like this as a formality.
15 ... Herzegovina? Man, I have 60.000 Serbs in Novo Sarajevo,
16 60.000, and they made a big coat of arms and things down there. Let's not
17 be that ridiculous. If you're not united, and of course, along with a
18 policy of development and along with a complete autonomy, the autonomy of
19 this ... on Saturday we did more than you can imagine in this Ministerial
20 Council. About this, the retaining of these means and things. We are
21 working on it completely. There isn't -- we will give them a
22 participation fee. What they are doing to Yugoslavia we will do to them.
23 Right, President.
24 Participation fee. How many of us are there? This and this
25 many. How many of us are participating? There are 30 per cent of us, we
1 are participating in the national product with 20 per cent because you did
2 not develop factories in our areas, then you will get 20 per cent for the
3 maintenance of mutual organs and that's it. So there it is ...
4 I think there are no references nor conflicts between us.
6 Only that there is, we want a little, we want it to go a little
7 bit faster.
8 Okay then. But look, there is -- it doesn't arise before drawn.
9 Do you remember the thing about plebiscite? If we had done it then, it
10 wouldn't have been good. But we -- we are preparing it. All these moves
11 you are making are also preparing.
12 Do you know what the problem is, President? For instance, they
13 are grabbing the money from oil, private entrepreneurs.
14 Well, you have to put it ... right now, please. Today we are
15 going to agree it up there, we shall ... Novi Privrednik will put its claw
16 on all of it. No way anyone can get it. You will immediately set up the
17 regional board of Privrednik and then, for instance, out of three litres,
18 three dinars, how much is going to the, what's its name --
20 Two will go to you and I will go to ...
21 But, Mr. President, what I would like to know is this: Who will
22 be collecting the republican and federal taxes? Will it be the SDK?
23 That is all done by our minister, by our Ministerial Council.
24 Well, that is --
25 It's all done by our Ministerial Council, and we shall pay the
1 federal taxes, but as ourselves, and we shall put it to the federal state
2 that it is the -- its duty to protect us and to live with us.
3 That is okay. If the Muslims SDK were to take the money from the
4 taxes for themselves, that would not be okay.
5 That's out of the question. Believe me, it would be a pleasure to
6 see the Ministerial Council, how much these peoples -- people have done,
7 how much each of them has committed themselves and thought it over. Soon
8 there will be a separate SDK and everything will be ...
9 Our primary task is for Milosevic to direct us to the Serbian
10 government, and then, and that we have serious talks with the Serbian
12 Today -- are they going today? In that respect you don't have --
13 Today I'm going to make arrangements for the entire Bosnia.
15 The 'New Privrednik' will have to have regional boards for
16 Semberija and Doboj, for Northern Bosnia, in Banja Luka for Krajina, in
17 Trebinje for, or in Bileca for Eastern Herzegovina, and in Sarajevo for
20 So there should be regional boards, and they will work to the
21 maximum, but they will have insight in bookkeeping and it should be put
22 ... so that's the -- so that the one who buys it there will be able to
23 buy it third-hand.
24 That's it.
25 Third-hand. Let 'Privrednik's' station pass it twice.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Privrednik's branch office, and let him purchase them and then let him try
2 to export. We will save the guarantees. Let him try to export to Croatia
3 five times.
4 It is most important that 'Privrednik' launders this, which is
5 most important. We have to give a discount of 15 per cent and then
6 whoever wants, can put it in order.
7 No problem. Only don't give it to power lovers, that is, whoever
8 wants authority, and knows what to do will get it, there is no problem.
9 We had here, you know, one shift, isn't it?
10 Yes, yes, it's okay, but one's honour should be kept and ...
11 Well, we are keeping it. We are saving people's faces. I haven't
12 rushed out with a single statement. I just said that the people were
13 tired and they could not do two jobs.
14 That's normal and change is normal. The authorities should be
15 replaceable, and they can come again in two years and so on. In a
16 democratic world it is so, and the problem in communism was that once you
17 replace somebody, nobody ever greets him any more.
18 And one cannot recover any more.
19 And one cannot recover any more. But we don't want this. We can
20 do it. Authorities should be replaceable and it should be done elegantly
21 with no big scenes.
22 It all should be humanists at the end.
23 Also democrats, finally, today we do not like his ideas, and
24 tomorrow they can be excellent and we would call him at once. Therefore
25 there is no problem there.
1 It will be okay up there.
4 Thank you.
5 Call. But let me tell you; concerning the government, I will
6 prepare for the regional 'Privrednik' to be there. You just have to
7 establish as soon as possible the regional 'Privrednik', that is, we are
8 already registered.
9 That requires some work. I don't know who has been consulted in
10 connection with 'Privrednik.' Has Cizmovic been consulted?
11 Well, Cizmovic will get instructions. He is not ... So he will
12 become a member of Privrednik and he will have the priority when we buy
13 something. We cannot say: 'We won't give it to you but we will give it
14 to us,' but that our man has the priority. So, from Privrednik to the
15 member, a member of the Krajina Privrednik. And if this person wants to
16 buy it, he can only get it fourth-hand.
17 Yeah, yeah.
18 So we will be receiving our profit and our commission at three
19 places, so that we'll control the situation. I'll explain it to you on
20 paper when I see you.
21 Somebody should come here and explain to us the situation so that
22 we should work immediately.
23 All right. Today, today we ... have this ... today we -- Radoman
24 Bozovic and we shall finish that.
25 All right.
1 And once we'll have this visit of yours up there, the political
2 one, together with us, or without us, it's all the same, it should simply
3 be for the press. And we should have our pictures taken.
4 All right.
5 There you go.
6 Have a nice day.
7 Thank you, President, you too.
9 MR. MARGETTS:
10 Q. Your Honour, first an apology. It was intended that a portion of
11 that intercept would be played. In fact, the whole intercept was played.
12 I think we've only lost time in terms of playing the whole intercept.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It's your time, Mr. Margetts. And may I ask, next
14 time, the interpreters on the transcript, and I fully see the problems you
15 are facing, but on the transcript now it's totally unclear who said what.
16 Perhaps, since it's to some extent read and to some extent translated from
17 what is already a transcript, that perhaps we even should take the
18 additional time to say "Karadzic" and then the text and then the other
19 interlocutor, because that would certainly assist in making the transcript
20 more understandable. There's no reason, I would say, to repeat it all at
21 this moment. The transcript is in evidence so everyone who wants to see
22 the better details can consult that.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.
24 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. Antic, do you recognise the voices of the two persons speaking
1 on the intercept?
2 A. I have not paid attention to that. I was paying more attention to
3 the contents of the intercept. I believe that one of the voices was
4 Mr. Karadzic's voice, and as for the other one, I did not recognise it. I
5 don't know how that person normally sounds, how that person normally
6 speaks. I'm not sure who it is.
7 Q. Mr. Antic, for your information, the other voice has been
8 recognised as that of Vojo Kupresanin from the ARK region. Mr. Antic, you
9 heard the comments of Mr. Karadzic there in respect of Novi Privrednik.
10 Now, Novi Privrednik was a stock company and SDS members were the members
11 of that company; correct?
12 A. I don't know that only SDS members were its company. The
13 membership in the company was not limited; anybody could have been a
15 Q. And, Mr. Antic, you say that anyone could have been a member. Who
16 told you that?
17 A. Nobody told me. I think that the membership was not limited, and
18 there was no ban on joining the company if people had interest in that, or
19 ideas. If anybody had an idea for a new venture, a business venture, they
20 could come and join the company.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Antic, I think Mr. Margetts is interested to know
22 the facts rather than the legal structure and whether there were any
23 formal obstacles to becoming a shareholder or officer of the company.
24 At the same time, Mr. Margetts, could we deal with it in such a
25 way, because I do not know exactly what the relevance at this moment is,
1 we have heard some evidence about, well, how business transactions now and
2 then went on. It's not the core of this case. Would you please keep that
3 in mind. I'm not saying that you shouldn't ask any questions, but let's
4 not lose ourselves in the subject.
5 MR. MARGETTS:
6 Q. Mr. Antic, there was a meeting in Sarajevo on --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, I would like to -- do you know who were
8 the shareholders in Privrednik?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't. There were quite a few
10 of them, but I don't remember who they were. This was just the beginning.
11 It was a mere idea. It was nothing special. This is my information.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The ones you knew that were shareholders, were they
13 SDS members?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sure that some were, and the
15 others were not.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Could you name us some of the others who were not?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember a single name. I
18 know very little about that. I know that the underlying idea behind this
19 was a business idea, a business venture. I can't remember any of the
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.
22 MR. MARGETTS:
23 Q. Mr. Antic, there was a meeting in Sarajevo on the 18th of January,
24 1992, attended by SDS members and members of the business community in
25 Sarajevo wherein the structure and purpose of Novi Privrednik was
1 explained. Did you attend that meeting?
2 A. I'm not sure, but I can't rule out that possibility. I don't
3 remember. I'm not ruling out the possibility that I might have.
4 Q. Now, as expressed in this telephone conversation, Novi Privrednik
5 was intended to deal in commodities, wasn't it, including oil?
6 A. Trade in the broadest sense of the word.
7 Q. Further, Novi Privrednik was intended to ensure delivery of goods
8 to persons who were members of the company and not those outside the
9 company, and it was intended to be a source of funding for the SDS.
10 That's correct, isn't it?
11 A. I believe you're not right in saying that.
12 Q. Well, clearly expressed in the conversation is that concept, and
13 I'll take you to the part of it.
14 If Mr. Antic could be provided with the documents, or
15 alternatively, if he could just be provided with the document at tab 14,
16 which is Exhibit P981.
17 Mr. Antic, I refer you to the second last page of the Serbian
18 transcript of this intercept, and in particular to the comments where
19 Kupresanin asks: "Has Cizmovic been consulted?" And Karadzic says:
20 "Cizmovic will get instructions, and he'll become a member of Privrednik
21 and he'll have the priority when we buy something." He said: "We cannot
22 say we won't give it to you but we'll give it to us, but that our man has
23 the priority. So from Privrednik to the member, a member of the Krajina
24 Privrednik, and if this person wants to buy it, he can get it only
25 fourth-hand." Then Karadzic says: "So we'll be receiving our profit and
1 our commission at three places, so that we'll control the situation." And
2 he says: "I'll explain it to you on paper when I see you."
3 So there's two elements there; that the goods that Privrednik are
4 dealing in are going to be provided from the company to the members; is
5 that correct?
6 A. As far as I can see, it says "our man," here. I don't know what
7 he implied when he said, "our man," or my man, or his man.
8 Q. Well, Mr. Antic, I won't seek any further comment from you on that
9 intercept and I'll move to another topic. And --
10 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, we're going through to quarter to,
11 five minutes of this session; is that correct?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have one and a half hour for this one, so YOU
13 have five to ten minutes left at this moment before the next break.
14 MR. MARGETTS:
15 Q. Now, Mr. Antic, Mr. Rajko Dukic, he was the general manager of the
16 Boksit company, which had its headquarters in Milici where the bauxite
17 mine operation was located. However, in 1992, the Boksit company, it was
18 involved in oil trading, wasn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you had dealings with the Boksit company in your capacity as
21 minister of the economy, didn't you?
22 A. I can't say that I had dealings with them. I cooperated with
23 them. I -- I was called upon to give them certain approvals. It was a
24 big company, a market leader, but I wouldn't say I had dealings with them.
25 Q. Well, in particular you leased various premises to them; is that
2 A. Premises? I remember that we gave the approval to use some
3 technical capacities, some gas pumps, so that they could load and unload
4 oil. Is that what you're referring to?
5 Q. Yes, Mr. Antic, that's the case.
6 MR. MARGETTS: If we could refer to tab 6D and if the document
7 could be presented to Mr. Antic. And that's in the first binder.
8 And, Your Honour, if this number could be given an exhibit
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be?
11 THE REGISTRAR: That would be Exhibit P982, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 MR. MARGETTS:
14 Q. Mr. Antic, could you review that contract, in particular just
15 confirm to the Court that that's your signature; and secondly, that this
16 is the contract for the leasing of fuel stations that you were referring
17 to in your previous answer.
18 A. Yes, this is my signature. I'm -- I don't see a problem here.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Antic. At this stage I'll just ask you to look for
20 the locations that these petrol stations are located in, and I'll list
21 them: Karakaj, Divic, Drinjaca in Zvornik, and ignoring Sekovici, but
22 Vlasenica and Bratunac. In particular looking at the locations Karakaj,
23 Divic and Drinjaca, are you aware that Muslim civilians were shot dead in
24 those villages only a matter of weeks before you issued this contract to
25 Mr. Dukic?
1 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Antic.
3 MR. MARGETTS: I've finished with that exhibit, Your Honour. I
4 note the time.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll adjourn until ten minutes past four.
6 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
7 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Tieger, I'd like to convey a
9 message from the Chamber to the Prosecutor. There was a complaint during
10 the testimony of Mr. Djordjevic that questions were put in relation to
11 events that were not contained in the 65 ter summary. If there would be
12 any need to revisit that question - I mean, we took similar decisions in
13 respect of the Defence, of course - then you can come back to it. Of
14 course, the Chamber hopes and doesn't expect that there would be any need
15 to recall that witness for that reason only, but if you would have some
16 information or documents which shed a light on it, you could at least
17 request the Chamber to pay further attention to it.
18 And I take it, then, that the message is clear for the Defence.
19 The Prosecution found itself in a similar situation as the Defence now,
20 then, has found itself, when suddenly new things came up which were not in
21 the 65 ter summary, and it's fair to the other party that at least an
22 opportunity will be given to revisit the question, and to what
23 consequences it finally will lead is still something to be decided, but it
24 also means that we would not exclude that from the evidence.
25 Then, Mr. Margetts.
1 MR. JOSSE: Your Honours, I'm sorry. It's not -- bear in mind I
2 dealt with Mr. Djordjevic, it's not entirely clear to me. I mean, the
3 complaint came from whom -- who is the complainant and to whom was it
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think the complaint was that some of the events,
6 especially -- I think it was one event of Serbian soldiers being killed,
7 was not in the 65 ter summary although questions were put to the witness
8 in that respect.
9 MR. JOSSE: I see. Your Honour, I can tell you where my problem
10 is. The transcript reads: "I would like to convey a message from the
11 Chamber to the Prosecutor. There was a complaint during the testimony
12 ..." I assumed erroneously that was a complaint by the Chamber to the
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, a complaint by the Prosecution against the
15 questions put to the witness. If I have not been clear, I thank you at
16 least for clarifying the issue.
17 MR. JOSSE: I understand now, thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Margetts, you may proceed.
19 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Mr. Antic, as a successful businessman and as the minister for the
21 economy, you're in a perfect position to describe to the Trial Chamber
22 precisely how the monetary system changed in April 1992 in
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, aren't you?
24 A. Well, I was not in charge of the Finance Ministry, in order to
25 give you an expert explanation. I can't give you a detailed explanation
1 because this is not something I was closely involved with. All I can say
2 is that the Yugoslav dinar was the official currency, if that's what you
4 Q. Well, I'll be completely direct with you, Mr. Antic: That
5 explanation is entirely unsatisfactory although expected by me. It's
6 quite clear that Petra Markovic in the Republika Srpska government had
7 responsibility for the Ministry of Finance. However, it's also very clear
8 in your position in the Ministry of the Economy you had a full
9 comprehension of how it was that the public accounting system in
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina was converted from one that worked from Belgrade
11 through Sarajevo to one that worked from Belgrade through Banja Luka and
12 Sokolac. You are aware of that, aren't you?
13 A. It's a rather complex question, and I would need at least two
14 hours to answer this question and I still wouldn't be in a position to
15 give you a proper and exhaustive answer. Could you be a bit more
16 specific, please?
17 Q. We don't need two hours. It's very, very simple: You were a
18 member of the Ministerial Council, weren't you?
19 A. At what period of time do you have in mind? After -- you mean
20 after the BH government or what?
21 Q. Well, there was only one Ministerial Council, and if you want the
22 clarification: You were elected in December 1991, your first meeting was
23 on the 13th of January, 1992, and your second meeting was on the 22nd of
24 January, 1992; correct?
25 A. I can't remember all the dates, but of course I'm familiar. I was
1 elected as minister without portfolio at that time in that Ministerial
2 Council. I wasn't minister for trade and industry. I was only appointed
3 to that post in the month of May by the government of the Republika
5 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours, I'm going to --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. MARGETTS: I'm sorry.
8 JUDGE ORIE: While you're not asking about whether he was a member
9 of the Ministerial Council is that he now says what positions he held. Is
10 that an answer to your question?
11 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'm content, but due to the lack of
12 time I have, I'll forego receiving answers to all my questions and I'll
13 only insist on answers to the most important ones, if that pleases the
14 Trial Chamber.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, Mr. Antic, would you please
16 try to answer the questions. If someone asks you whether you're aware of
17 a change in the accounting system, you don't need two hours to say yes or
18 no to that question whether you were aware or not. I mean, only a few
19 details were given, whether it was Belgrade, Sarajevo. Just -- just tell
20 us what you know instead of -- instead of putting questions to
21 Mr. Margetts.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Margetts.
23 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honours, I'll refer
24 you to Exhibits P65 Treanor 7, tab 78, and P65 Treanor 7, tab 82. They're
25 exhibit -- they're exhibits which are in tabs 12A and 12B of the bundle
1 that you've received today.
2 Q. Mr. Antic, the first and the second meetings of the Ministerial
3 Council -- it's not necessary to show Mr. Antic these documents.
4 Apologies if I didn't make that clear.
5 The first and second meetings of the Ministerial Council were
6 attended by Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Karadzic, and one of the themes that was
7 introduced at the first meeting and continued on to the second meeting was
8 the dismemberment of the monetary system of Bosnia-Herzegovina. You do
9 recall that, don't you?
10 A. I don't.
11 Q. It was expressed to be "The economic disempowerment of the current
12 authorities in the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
13 A. It is possible. I can't remember that, but it may indeed have
14 been said.
15 Q. [Previous translation continues]... it's radically significant,
16 isn't it, because what you're in fact doing is dismembering an entire
17 country and its payment system, aren't you?
18 A. The system of payments dissolved of its own accord, as it were,
19 since it couldn't function because there was a joint SDK service which was
20 rather specific for that country and does not exist in any other
22 Q. Mr. Antic, you know that's a blatant untruth, don't you? The
23 truth is it didn't just spontaneously resolve at all.
24 MR. MARGETTS: And I refer Your Honours to the speech of Momcilo
25 Krajisnik, which you'll see at tab 11, which was a speech he delivered in
1 the Assembly session in February 1992. And if I could have the exhibit
2 number for that speech, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P983, Your Honours.
5 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I -- the Defence is -- asks through
6 Your Honours is this going to be a question rather than just a reference
7 to this material?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, may I take it that you'll confront the
9 witness with the content of this document?
10 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
12 MR. MARGETTS:
13 Q. Mr. Krajisnik stated in February 1992 to the persons present at
14 the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina -- no need to show to the witness this
15 document, thank you. "As far as the SDK is concerned, it will remain in
16 Sarajevo. Trebinje and Bijeljina and every other existing branch in
17 Bosnia and Herzegovina can be linked directly to Belgrade at any moment.
18 So, that branch and all those sub-branches that this branch encompasses
19 can be directly ripped from the system of this present SDK. I would,
20 therefore, like to ask for a compromise. Namely, that the branch
21 designated in Banja Luka can at any time be separated and linked to
22 Belgrade. Can we accept it like that?"
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, the Trial Chamber has the document,
25 Mr. Margetts has the document. The witness, who is the person under
1 cross-examination, should, with respect, also have the document.
2 JUDGE ORIE: It depends. I take it Mr. Margetts is just
3 confronting him with part of it, where it's for the Chamber more
5 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, with respect, the witness -- the
6 witness is then -- it may not be a long passage, but the witness is having
7 to remember the question. He really ought to be able to refresh himself
8 by having the same document in front of him.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could the passage just read to him be put in front of
10 him so he can consult it if he answers your question.
11 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, I'm happy to have the question
12 struck. The fact is that I certainly would like the document to be
13 introduced because it forms the basis for my question. However, I'm happy
14 to proceed without the cumbersome procedure of the document being
16 JUDGE ORIE: But now you've read it. Next time, Mr. Margetts,
17 make up your mind before you read it. So now the witness gets in front of
18 him -- what page is it? ERN number in the -- let me just --
19 MR. MARGETTS: It's tab 11, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then it would be which portion?
21 MR. MARGETTS: The portion in English is at the top. The pages,
22 unfortunately, are not numbered, but it is at the top of the second last
23 page in the English translation.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's where it reads, "We can put the National Bank
25 in --"
1 MR. MARGETTS: And it's at page 0279421 of the Bosnian.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Semi-last page, Madam Usher, of the B/C/S version.
3 MR. MARGETTS: And the last full paragraph.
4 JUDGE ORIE: You may put the question to the witness.
5 MR. MARGETTS:
6 Q. Now, Mr. Antic, you are fully aware that that was the policy of
7 Momcilo Krajisnik. He had in fact met with you in your capacity as a
8 member of the Ministerial Council and he had expressed that view to you,
9 hadn't he?
10 A. I can't recall that meeting. I don't know whether there were more
11 such meetings.
12 Q. Mr. Antic, I think you've misunderstood my question. My question
13 was that that opinion and that policy was expressed to you, not
14 specifically focusing on whether you remember the specific meeting. So in
15 the period of January and February of 1992, did either Momcilo Krajisnik,
16 Radovan Karadzic, or representatives of those two persons express that
17 view to you, that the system, payment system in Bosnia-Herzegovina would
18 be ripped apart and Banja Luka would be attached to Belgrade?
19 A. I'm not aware of that.
20 Q. Mr. Antic, you've seen in the telephone intercept that was played
21 to you that Radovan Karadzic said to Mr. Kupresanin that "It would be a
22 pleasure to see the Ministerial Council how much these people have done.
23 How much each of them has committed themselves and thought it over. Soon
24 there will be a separate SDK and everything will be --" and he was cut off
25 by Mr. Kupresanin, who said, "Our primary task is for Milosevic to direct
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 us to the Serbian government and that we have serious talks with the
2 Serbian government."
3 Now, that's entirely consistent with the comments of Mr. Krajisnik
4 that you've just read, isn't it?
5 A. Yes. I've read this and I've read the other text as well, but
6 it's just that back then I wasn't really aware of any of it.
7 Q. It's clear from that text that the Ministerial Council is the
8 primary body that's going to achieve that end, isn't it?
9 A. No. I don't know that the Ministerial Council did anything about
10 that. I can't remember.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Antic, we're in receipt of an intercepted telephone
12 conversation between Momcilo Krajisnik and Radovan Karadzic.
13 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours, it's at tab 7 of the binder you
14 received yesterday. If we could receive -- if we could have an exhibit
15 number and that could be presented to the witness.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P984, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 MR. MARGETTS:
20 Q. Mr. Antic, if you could read the transcript of that conversation.
21 The parts of the conversation that I'd like to emphasise with you,
22 approximately the fourth line. Karadzic says to Krajisnik: "Milosevic
23 said that we are to install a man up there, to have an office up there all
24 the time."
25 And further on in the text, Karadzic again says to Krajisnik:
1 "The president said that up there in the ministry of commerce one office
2 should be opened as a representative body."
3 And further on in the text, Radovan asks Momcilo Krajisnik:
4 "Would this Bozo Antic be okay?" And Krajisnik says: "He would be great.
5 Well, let's sit with him. Screw it."
6 So if you could take your time to read that conversation, and if
7 you could tell the Trial Chamber precisely what it was that Momcilo
8 Krajisnik and Radovan Karadzic had in mind for you at February 1992,
9 please do so.
10 A. I must say that this is the first I've heard of this idea of it
11 being debated. Neither one of them ever raised it with me in any shape or
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Antic. Mr. Antic, your presence in Belgrade really
14 may have had something to do with your family matters, but the primary
15 reason you were in Belgrade was to assist in the setting up of this new
16 payment system, wasn't it?
17 A. You must have confused me with somebody else. I've never been to
18 Belgrade in any official capacity, on any government business, and
19 especially not with regard to the accounting service.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Antic, I'd like to turn to another topic. We saw
21 yesterday that there was a specification of the areas that were within
22 your portfolio as the minister for the economy in the guidelines that were
23 provided by the Presidency, or the War Presidency. Included in that
24 specification was a responsibility that you had in regard to war booty.
25 Do you recall that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, as at the end of May, the start of June 1992, there was
3 substantial abandoned property on the territory of Republika Srpska;
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And there were various regulations put in place with regard to the
7 collection of that abandoned property and the placement of that in the
8 commodity reserves of Republika Srpska; correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honours, if I could refer to tab 6A, and that
11 is a decree on the mandatory delivery of war booty and booty acquired by
12 other means to the republic's emergency reserves. Could it please have an
13 exhibit number.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P985, Your Honours.
16 MR. MARGETTS:
17 Q. Mr. Antic, could you please look at the Official Gazette of the
18 Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, number 8, and decision 177, which is
19 Exhibit P985, and could you confirm that this is the decree on war booty
20 that was issued by the Government of Republika Srpska.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And could you pay special attention to Article 1 and confirm that
23 that was the definition of the war booty that constituted the subject of
24 this decree.
25 A. Could you specify the question, please? What is your actual
1 question with reference to Article 1?
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Antic. I was moving to that question. The
3 question is as follows: We've referred to the abandoned property on the
4 territory of Republika Srpska, and that abandoned property included those
5 matters referred to in Article 1, movable property and assets,
6 commodities, technical equipment, vehicles and equipment, cash, foreign
7 currency, gold, other precious metals and valuables. That's correct,
8 isn't it? If you could --
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And -- and the reason that all of that material had been abandoned
11 is that people had left their homes on various parts of the territory;
13 A. No. This is not about real estate. It is about businesses. It
14 is just about businesses, not about any form of private property.
15 Q. Mr. Antic, there's no distinction in this decree between private
16 or public property, is there?
17 A. This is not specified. What is specified here is that commissions
18 would be established that would specify things and provide directions, and
19 you can see this in the following articles.
20 Q. That's correct, but the fact is that the property that you were
21 collecting included cash, foreign currency, gold, and other precious
22 metals. That's correct, isn't it?
23 A. The idea was that if there was a company that had such precious
24 materials or money or gold, then it would apply to that company, not to
25 any private individuals. That was the idea behind this article.
1 Q. Mr. Antic, can you give any reasonable explanation as to why that
2 important part of the definition of the property was left out of this
4 A. In any case, this was not done on purpose, and the goal was to
5 prevent illegal looting or theft, to prevent people from wilfully taking
6 things away. We wanted to place things under our control, to register
7 things, to be aware of what belongs to whom, and one day, when the time
8 was right, to be able to tell what belongs to whom. This was the
9 underlying idea. Why this was omitted must have been a technical mistake,
10 nothing else.
11 Q. Well, Mr. Antic, with respect, that idea is very different to your
12 first idea. The accurate collection -- the collection and accurate
13 recording of what property had been abandoned is very different to the
14 restrictive idea of only collecting property from businesses. Can you
15 explain to the Trial Chamber, if you take those two ideas together, why it
16 was that you considered the protection of some property to be important
17 and not other property?
18 A. We believed that the property of individuals should be protected
19 by the police, whereas the property of companies should be protected by
20 us. When it came to the property of actual persons, we believed that it
21 was the task of the police to protect it. That's how we saw it, and
22 that's what we did, because we did not have any instruments at your
23 disposal to deal with individual cases, and there were hundreds of those.
24 Q. Can you explain why it was that people who had accumulated
25 property in their companies, as you seek to limit this to, although it's
1 not apparent on the document, why people who had left their cash in
2 companies would have abandoned their cash?
3 A. In hypothetical terms why this was the case: If, for instance,
4 they fled or left for certain reasons and if they hadn't taken that
5 because they considered that theft, that's the only reason why somebody
6 would have left things behind.
7 Q. And that's correct, the cash -- people would only leave cash,
8 foreign currency, gold, or other precious metals behind if they were
9 fleeing an imminent danger. That's correct, isn't it?
10 A. Not only in those cases. For example, in my case, I left my
11 things in my company although I did not flee.
12 Q. It's the case in preparing this decree you were aware that a lot
13 of people had abandoned their property to save their lives, hadn't they?
14 A. I'm talking only about companies. I don't know anything about the
15 reasons of individuals. This was not my concern.
16 Q. Well, companies, certainly a corporate form for certain technical
17 legal reasons, but companies consist of people as well. So within the
18 confines of your answer, it's the fact that the people who were in those
19 companies had abandoned those companies urgently to save their lives,
20 hadn't they?
21 A. You can't say that.
22 Q. Now, the republic's emergency reserves were administered by the
23 Ministry of Defence, weren't they?
24 A. No. The emergency reserves were in the hands of the directorate
25 for the emergency reserves. It was a civilian body.
1 Q. And they were frequently depleted, weren't they?
2 A. I suppose so.
3 Q. And it wasn't the case that in the emergency reserves you held
4 things on trust. In fact, what you did is you collected the war booty to
5 renew those republics -- those emergency reserves and then you expended
6 those emergency reserves, didn't you?
7 A. No. Absolutely not. Emergency reserves were created through a
8 system of building up emergency reserves, and the equipment and
9 commodities that could be construed as war booty were also placed into the
10 emergency reserves, just to be under control and to be recorded. They
11 were not collected for that reason in the first place. Once they existed,
12 they were placed among the emergency reserves to be under control.
13 Q. You're aware of decisions of municipalities and regions wherein
14 abandoned property immediately became the property of the local Municipal
15 Assembly and was expended by the Assembly, are you?
16 A. According to our regulations, everything was under the control of
17 the republican directorate for emergency reserves. I can't remember any
18 specific case, but I know that there were such cases, but this was against
19 the law. They should have been placed under the control of the
20 directorate for emergency reserves. And if there was a need, the
21 directorate could distribute those goods or sell to -- to whomever they
22 deemed necessary.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Antic.
24 MR. MARGETTS: And thank you, Your Honour, I have no further
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Questioned by the Court:
3 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one additional question, Mr. Antic, in
4 view of the last questions put to you by Mr. Margetts.
5 What does it mean, "emergency reserve"?
6 A. Those were commodity reserves, not so much emergency reserves,
7 which means that in any given moment the state has to have at its disposal
8 certain quantities of food and bare necessities; fuel and so on and so
9 forth, in case the regular supplies become scarce. When that happens, the
10 supply goes from the commodity reserves, then when the supply flows become
11 regular again, the commodity reserves are replenished from the regular
12 supplies, and that's how the commodity reserves function. It is not so
13 much the matter of those reserves being emergency reserves. They're just
14 commodity reserves for certain cases.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I understand that such a reserve is to be
16 used? I mean, what's in that reserve can be used whenever there's need to
17 use it, wouldn't it? Isn't that the meaning of what a reserve is?
18 A. Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: If you want foreign currency to be delivered to a
20 commission and then send it to the republic reserves, wouldn't you then
21 use the reserve if need be?
22 A. Absolutely not. Such reserves, which do not exist in practice,
23 they're only hypothetical reserves, would be placed under the control of
24 the national bank. This has been provided for by the law.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what this decree says, isn't it? It says
1 that everything should be stored, taken care of, and then be delivered to
2 the republic's emergency reserves. That's what the decree says, isn't it?
3 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, with respect, that particular article
4 of the decree does have a next section, doesn't it?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm aware that Article 5 doesn't stop at the
6 bottom of the page.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can explain.
8 MR. STEWART: I was looking at the last but one, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I was talking about Article 5, as a matter of fact.
10 MR. STEWART: I draw your attention to Article 1, Your Honour,
11 because the question that Your Honour just put to the witness just now,
12 which ties very closely to the first bit of Article 1, I was just
13 suggesting one ought to --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I read it -- just to avoid whatever confusion, I was
15 thinking of Article 5, which says: "After the transfer --" that is the
16 transfer of the goods described in accordance with Article 4 "-- the
17 municipal commission must provide adequate storage and care of the
18 delivered movable property and assets pending their delivery to the
19 republic's emergency reserves."
20 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I will, with respect, persist with my
21 observation, because the witness did refer to the national bank in an
22 answer, and when one looks at the exchange of questions and answers in the
23 last --
24 JUDGE ORIE: I do see.
25 MR. STEWART: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do see it. I think I made a mistake. It's
2 the risk of -- thank you for drawing my attention to it.
3 MR. STEWART: I'm very much obliged, Your Honour. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I have overlooked that, and that's one of the risks
5 of being confronted with these kind of documents only just before
6 questions are put in relation to that.
7 Then if they are put in the -- the foreign currency, if that's put
8 in the national bank, was it registered as in a similar way as in Article
9 4? That means, that it was registered who was the owner of the -- this
10 currency, how it was obtained by the one who delivered it.
11 A. I suppose so. Probably.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you guide us as to where to find such registers
13 of delivery of foreign currency to the national bank and then the
14 registration of all the information as we find it in Article 4 that should
15 be recorded; how those people had got it, who were the initial owners?
16 A. I wouldn't know that. You have to look at the documents of the
17 national bank to find that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Are you aware of any -- of any system where the
19 initial owners were -- could receive their -- for example, their foreign
20 currency back? Was there a practice where people could go to the national
21 bank and say, "I'd like to have a look in the registers to see whether the
22 one who stole my money, or who received my money, I'd like to have it
24 A. I don't know how this might have functioned, and any answer on my
25 part would be pure speculation.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, about what ended up in the republic's emergency
2 reserves, of which you said they were not emergency reserves but just
3 reserves, for example, vehicles delivered to that reserves, are you aware
4 of claims later on? People said, "Someone must have delivered my car to
5 the commission," and then it must have been delivered to the emergency
6 reserves, or were these cars just used?
7 A. I'm afraid I did not understand your question. Could you please
8 be more specific?
9 JUDGE ORIE: This --
10 A. Are you talking about private vehicles? This is what I would like
11 you to clarify for me.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm talking about any vehicle. Citizens might have
13 understood this to be for everything they had taken or received. Are you
14 aware, under this decree, when equipment, when vehicles, whatever was
15 delivered to the commission and was described precisely and then delivered
16 to the republic emergency services -- reserves, whether it was then used?
17 I mean, a car. You can use a car. Then it -- it's not in the reserve any
19 A. I see. Of course there were cases when things were entered into
20 the reserves and subsequently those same things were used from the
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is that a measure to protect the initial owner
23 or is that a measure which suits well the needs of the republic at that
25 A. Those things were used to serve the needs of certain bodies. In
1 any case, this was the road to take in order to see who the owner was once
2 the conditions for that were in place. In other words, after the war,
3 every owner of such property could find out where the property was,
4 whether it was lost; and if it was lost, to seek compensation in respect
5 of that property.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have any numbers of how much compensation was
7 paid to those who were -- who lost their movable property?
8 A. Unfortunately, I can't answer this because I don't know. I
9 believe that the number is very low. And in my specific case, I don't
10 even know who to address in order to restore what I lost. This is in my
11 specific case. Not to this very day do I know who to talk to in order to
12 get compensated for what I myself lost during the war.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You think that the number is very low. What makes
14 you believe that the number is very low? Did you not think this system to
15 be very effective in compensating people for property they -- for movable
16 property they had lost?
17 A. Simply put, I don't have any information about that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
19 Mr. Stewart.
20 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, if I may just prior to the opportunity
21 for Defence counsel to re-examine.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. MARGETTS: I do have a document that I'd like to present to
24 the Trial Chamber. It's a list of the members of Novi Privrednik. It is
25 relevant to this witness's evidence, although I don't think it is a
1 document that needs to be presented to the witness. So if --
2 JUDGE ORIE: It's a contextual for the -- where the witness had
3 difficulties in identifying who are members or shareholders, I don't know
4 exactly how to understand --
5 MR. MARGETTS: The witness expressed a view as to who composed the
6 membership of the stock company, and this is a contemporaneous document
7 that sets out that membership.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.
9 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, we wouldn't mind having a look at
10 it sometime. Perhaps we could be supplied with the document and then we
11 could consider it.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. STEWART: I don't mean this second. I -- I mean, take it away
14 with us.
15 MR. MARGETTS: And at this moment I must observe that it's in
16 Cyrillic and we don't have a translation, so it may be useful for
17 Mr. Krajisnik to see.
18 MR. STEWART: We regard that as a minor problem, Your Honour, but
19 nevertheless we wish to take it away.
20 MR. MARGETTS: But on the plus side, it is a list of names and --
21 addresses and numbers in terms of specifying the shareholding of the
22 individuals named, so -- so, Your Honour, pending the Defence's response,
23 I don't know whether it would be appropriate for that to be given an
24 exhibit number or not.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's wait for a second. Perhaps Mr. Krajisnik could
1 have a look at it. I don't know whether he has any knowledge about
2 membership or shareholdership, but at least give him an opportunity.
3 Mr. Margetts, I notice to start with that there seems not to be
4 any date on this document.
5 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, yes. I cannot find a date on it or
6 any contextualising date within it. I am aware that there are various
7 documents that were seized from a specific location related to this topic,
8 and it is possible that we would have a contextualising document which
9 would assist in that regard.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And could you assist the Defence in telling where you
11 -- where you found this document.
12 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, the --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Or where this document was found. I don't expect you
14 found it personally.
15 MR. MARGETTS: These documents were seized from the Holiday Inn in
16 Sarajevo, I believe in April 1992, by the Bosnian authorities. I believe
17 it was from the registered head office of Novi Privrednik.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. MARGETTS: And if it's of assistance, it's -- my understanding
20 is that this document will be dated contextually to around December 1991.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll hear from Mr. Stewart if there is any
22 objection, and if he can't give that answer now, he is at least invited
23 now to ask any further questions to the witness if there's any need.
24 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, there is in fact more than one document
25 which has come up in the cross-examination of this witness that the
1 Defence would like to give consideration to. The question we -- we often
2 deal with the question of admission of documents at the end of a witness's
3 evidence and we do occasionally, or Your Honours do occasionally then deal
4 with it the next day or --
5 JUDGE ORIE: I just wondered if you could at this moment. If not
6 -- whether you could at this moment say whether there would be any -- I
7 would say initial objection against admission, because then it would be
8 assigned a number. And I said that if you could not, that you were
9 invited to put any question to the witness, not specifically in relation
10 to this document but in re-examination of the witness.
11 MR. STEWART: Yes, indeed, Your Honour, thank you. I just have
12 probably two questions, Your Honour.
13 Re-examined by Mr. Stewart:
14 Q. First of all, Mr. Antic, you just referred a few minutes ago to
15 what you had lost during the war. What did you lose during the war?
16 A. My business assets, everything that had to do with my company; the
17 production materials, ready-made finished products, the premises,
18 altogether worth over 3 billion German marks at the time, and I still know
19 where those things are, or at least where they were at the time.
20 Q. Have you ever had any of that property back?
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises, the value was 3
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. The interpretation of the answer of the
25 witness to the question that he never had it back, and the 3 billion turns
1 out to be 3 million.
2 MR. STEWART: Yes, that's just the correction on the transcript
3 comes between the question and the answer, as Your Honour --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Antic, you would have wished to have it
5 had at the time and not had lost it, but it is a number which is not
6 correct. Three million.
7 Yes, please proceed, Mr. --
8 MR. STEWART:
9 Q. Are you aware of any -- any politician in any other part of former
10 Yugoslavia at the time of the war who had exactly the same name as you,
11 first and last name?
12 A. Yes. The first and last name, Bozidar Antic.
13 Q. Well, another Bozidar -- well, you put it slightly -- Bozidar
14 Antic is your name, as I say it. And who was he?
15 A. He was a man who was either deputy minister or minister of trade
16 of the Federal Republic of Serbia or the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
17 I don't know whether he was at -- whether he was at the republican or at
18 the federal level. I believe that he was at the level of Serbia.
19 MR. STEWART: No more questions, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Just for a better understanding of both, the last
21 question and the answer, is there anywhere in the documents where we've
22 found until now the name and the first name of this witness? Is there any
23 risk of confusion or is just for future events that you say whenever you
24 find the name of Bozidar Antic it might well be the other one? Is it on
25 any of the -- because -- because I have to go through this --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MR. STEWART: Well, yes, Your Honour. There is a risk.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but could you -- could you materialise? Where
3 should we be, in view of any document presented, be cautious not to draw
4 conclusions too easily?
5 MR. STEWART: Well, sorry, I'm afraid I can only answer that by
6 saying that of course in many instances it will be absolutely plain from
7 the context or the nature of the document that it is this Mr. Bozidar
8 Antic. So --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any point where it's -- you consider it not
10 to be absolutely plain?
11 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'd like to --
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour --
14 JUDGE ORIE: If you answer the question at later stage, it would
15 be fine.
16 MR. STEWART: I can't point to anything right now, Your Honour,
17 but I brought out, if you like, the -- well, I brought out the question
18 and answer, and where it leads on future perusal of any document is an
19 open question.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Margetts, I have also a question for you. In one
23 of the questions you did put to the witness you suggested that he went to
24 Belgrade, not to accompany his wife and children to go there but he
25 actually went there for a totally different reason. The witness denied
1 that quite strongly. Is there anything you know about, apart from what
2 you've shown us, that would support your suggestion that that was the real
3 reason for going to Belgrade?
4 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, there's nothing that directly names
5 this witness as being a representative placed in the ministry in Belgrade.
6 The suggestion from us was based upon an extensive reading of various
7 intercepts as well as analysis of the government minutes. The intercepts
8 make it clear that that's in fact what occurred, and the government
9 minutes subsequently confirm that there was economic Presidency in the
10 Chamber of Commerce -- or in the ministry in Belgrade, and I can provide
11 those references to Your Honour. So it was a process of elimination that
12 was the basis for that question, and the manner of the witness's
13 presentation of an alternative explanation in his evidence led us to be
14 curious as to whether that was in fact the correct reason.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And may I take it that if you say the extensive
16 reading of various intercepts, that -- are these intercepts that are
17 available to the Chamber? I mean, you might have a lot of intercepts more
18 than we received in evidence.
19 MR. MARGETTS: That is the case. These are not intercepts that
20 are in evidence, but -- well, I can't say that categorically. Some of
21 them may in fact be in evidence, but --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- systematically verified whether they are in
23 evidence. That also means that the Chamber cannot on the basis of that
24 material form itself an opinion on, well, reliability and credibility in
25 this respect because it relies on material which is not available to us.
1 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, I think the Prosecution would
2 concede that point.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one question for you. You said all
6 kinds of rumours of you yourself taking advantage from the privatisation
7 and the criticism was totally incorrect. Who became the effective owners
8 of the company that was privatised and -- that is the company you were on
9 the board of? Who finally became the owners of that company?
10 A. The employed staff. Amongst them I myself, and I got a symbolic
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what was the symbolic percentage you
14 A. I can't remember, but about 1 per cent, and in the end I left it
15 to them that percentage that was mine. After the war, when the payments
16 were being made, I did not even ask for that payment.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How many people were employed in that company?
18 A. When I was a manager, 800.
19 JUDGE ORIE: How many got a share of the -- you said it was the --
20 finally the owners were the employed staff. Did you all become owners?
21 How many owners did the company have after the privatisation?
22 A. Everybody, more or less. I actually left, so I don't know what
23 happened later, but in that initial stage that I was in charge of, more or
24 less everybody.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So that would be 800 people becoming the owners of
1 that company. What did they have to pay for their ownership?
2 A. According to the law at the time, they didn't have to pay
3 anything. It was just that the value of the company was divided up
4 according to the criteria enshrined in the law passed by the then Prime
5 Minister Ante Markovic, and then everybody got a certain percentage. So
6 every single employee got a percentage according to that set of criteria.
7 And so in case the company was to be sold or whatever else happened, they
8 would participate in the proceeds. So it was a kind of workers share
9 ownership. It was slightly different from what you have today.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And what now exactly was the criticism?
11 Because I do understand that everyone got a part of it. What now exactly
12 was the criticism? I mean, in this system, all those who worked in the
13 company had the advantage or the profit of becoming owner of a company in
14 which they were employed previously.
15 A. Well, it was a fabrication, because of course you have to say
16 something in order to fire a person, and the public opinion is likely to
17 believe that there is some shady dealing or some kind of crime, et cetera.
18 So that's the only reason. It was just the way of bandying about my name
19 and being able to pin something on me. So there was no real criticism.
20 It was all invented. It was all a fabrication, and they were all aware of
22 JUDGE ORIE: What exactly was fabricated? I see that you say
23 yourself that you got 1 per cent, where, I would say, on the average,
24 every employee would get one share out of 800 in the company. Perhaps you
25 are the director, perhaps according to the schedules you got a bit more,
1 but what then exactly was invented and what exactly was fabricated --
2 A. Precisely.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- that was used to damage your reputation?
4 A. Well, it was claimed that I did not distribute shares to everyone
5 but just gave them to a group of close friends and kept some myself and
6 left nothing to the employees, and that of course was a lie.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, at least I understand what the criticism
8 was. Why did you go to Mr. Karadzic to discuss these matters with him?
9 A. I said it yesterday. Some friends suggested that I should get in
10 touch with him in the sense that Mr. Karadzic or the Serb Democratic Party
11 could talk to those people who were attacking me and try and put a stop to
12 it and make sure that this problem did not happen again in terms of
13 somehow balancing things out with the HDZ.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You say it was all a fabrication. How was this
15 distribution of shares registered, recorded? I mean, someone must have
16 written down who now are the owners, you say approximately all of the 800.
17 Where was that registered?
18 A. In the company's books. And at the Industrial Tribunal as well.
19 And everything was fine then and years later. There was no dispute ever.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for answering those questions.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: The Bench has no further questions. Do the questions
23 of the Bench raise any need to put further questions to the witness?
24 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour.
25 MR. STEWART: I hope it will be a short one, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Further examination by Mr. Stewart:
3 Q. Mr. Antic, were any of these allegations about your part in the
4 privatisation of the company, were they made at any time on television?
5 A. Allusions to that topic, yes, and it was at the meeting of the
6 Presidency, of the BH Presidency.
7 Q. And so who were the individuals, if you can remember, who were
8 making those allusions on television, or who did make those allusions on
10 A. Mr. Kljuic and Mr. Alija Izetbegovic.
11 Q. Was there anybody from the Serb leadership who appeared on
12 television on those same occasions that Mr. Kljuic or Mr. Izetbegovic
13 appeared on television?
14 A. Yes. Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic were present, but they made no
16 MR. STEWART: Thank you. No further questions, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Antic, this concludes your testimony in
18 this court. I would like to thank you very much for -- first of all for
19 coming to The Hague, and of course for answering questions of both parties
20 and of the Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home again.
21 Madam Usher.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE ORIE: We could go through the exhibits of this witness, but
25 we'll need the assistance of the registrar. Perhaps since not all the
1 documents are used, I'll read them out slowly.
2 P979, guidelines on tasks, mode of action and functioning of
3 defence forces, et cetera.
4 P980, tape recording -- yes, Mr. Krajisnik.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but the first
6 document here is just not valid.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you would tell Mr. Stewart why you consider it to
8 be invalid, and then he can raise the objection in legal technical terms.
9 MR. STEWART: Excuse me one moment, Your Honour.
10 [Defence confer]
11 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour, we don't pursue any objection to
12 that document.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. STEWART: That's 979. Perhaps, Your Honour, just to clarify
15 what's going on, why there seems to be some consternation and possibly to,
16 without making submissions, reassure Mr. Krajisnik. Mr. Krajisnik has
17 some things to say about this document. I'll put it as neutrally as that.
18 When he comes to give evidence, he can say those things, but, Your Honour,
19 his legal -- his lawyer's assessment is that it doesn't constitution an
20 objection --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I've got no idea, Mr. Krajisnik, what you would like
22 to say about it, but admission into evidence of this document doesn't mean
23 that it ever enters into force, that it was -- if it's not signed, that it
24 would have been a draft that was later changed. A lot of things can
25 happen to a document. And if there would be any suggestion that it would
1 have been forgery, so manufactured, and that it is not produced at that
2 time but last year, then of course we would like to know about that
3 because we would then invite Mr. Margetts to give further details as to
4 the source of that document.
5 Yes, Mr. Krajisnik, you would like to add something?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The document was drafted by the
7 government and --
8 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, I'm going to invite my client through
9 Your Honours not to do this. Your Honour, let me say with the utmost
10 respect Your Honour's summary, the Defence lawyers, with respect, regard
11 as entirely accurate and we hope that will constitute a reassurance to
12 Mr. Krajisnik that such issues lie in the future and remain open for
13 exploration, but Your Honour, I, please, would like to discourage my
14 client from entering into this legal debate.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you started to explain some matters
16 about these documents which I take it, although we hardly heard anything
17 of you, means that you have some knowledge of the background of this
18 document. I don't know how you gained that knowledge or not, but since
19 you are on the list of those who are to testify, you will be in a position
20 to -- if questions are put to you, that you explain to us in detail
21 everything about this.
22 The problem is that if we would let you proceed at this moment, it
23 would be a statement not given after you had given a solemn declaration,
24 and therefore it would be totally unclear for us what to do at this moment
25 with your comments on the document.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore, please be aware that admission into
3 evidence, we invited the Defence, and that was well understood, I take it
4 -- understood by Mr. Stewart, that if there would be any authenticity
5 issue or something like that, that we'd like to know that right away. If
6 it's a matter of disputing the relevance, the binding force, the origin,
7 the whatever else, we will hear that at the appropriate time. And we
8 can't receive those comments at this moment because it would -- not from
9 you as an accused. If you would like to bring to the attention of the
10 Chamber, as now and then happens when I ask Mr. Margetts what he knows
11 about the document, where it was -- if there's any such comment which is
12 not evidence but just to first lead to see whether any evidence would be
13 needed to better understand the document, then we'll hear from counsel.
14 Then back to the list. P980, tape recording of the 64th session
15 of the Presidency. And the translation.
16 P981 --
17 MR. MARGETTS: Your Honour, apology for interrupting. The
18 translation at this stage is a partial translation. We do intend to
19 obtain the full translation in time.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is it there already or should it be made? I've
21 forgotten about the length of the document.
22 MR. MARGETTS: Only the partial translation is with the document
23 at the moment.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stewart, would the Defence be in a position
25 to tell us whether, apart from what the Prosecution considers to be the
1 most relevant portions of this document, whether there would be any need
2 for further translation, because it involves quite a lot of costs, and if
3 no one asks for it, then we could save those costs.
4 MR. STEWART: Well, Your Honour, we -- we're not in a position to
5 do that right now.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No, no.
7 MR. STEWART: Of course Your Honour is not expecting that, but we
8 take the point and Your Honour has in mind to leave it with us now to ask
9 whether we wish anything further to be translated.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That means that if we would take a decision on the
11 admission today, then the -- let's take it very practical, then the
12 Defence is invited to come back to the Chamber if more translation would
13 be needed.
14 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, yes. It looks -- the document seems to
15 be 23 pages long, as far as one can see, but --
16 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know how much it takes, but -- a page takes
17 for translation takes quite some time.
18 MR. STEWART: Oh, indeed, Your Honour. Yes, we certainly --
19 Mr. Karganovic, more than anybody else, knows that as well.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, there's more time available to
21 translate newly arrived documents that are awaiting translation. Okay,
22 let's see. We hear from the Defence.
23 Then we have P982, contract between the Serb Republic of Bosnia
24 and Herzegovina and the Boksit company Milici.
25 Next one, P983, speech of Momcilo Krajisnik in the Assembly of the
1 Serbian People, February 1992.
2 P984, intercepted -- an hour is missing, Mr. Registrar, a
3 conversation between Momcilo Krajisnik and Radovan Karadzic, February
5 P984 -- 985, decree on mandatory delivery of war booty, et cetera.
6 Any objections?
7 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then all these documents are admitted into evidence
9 and the Defence is entitled to ask for more translation of P981 -- no,
10 it's not P981. It's P9 -- P980.
11 Then there's one exhibit remaining from the witness Djordjevic.
12 Mr. Registrar, no number has yet been assigned to that document. It's map
13 of Foca not marked by the witness; is that correct?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. It wasn't given an exhibit
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then please give us the number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be, Your Honours, P986.
18 JUDGE ORIE: P986.
19 MR. JOSSE: Not that it matters in the slightest, but it was a
20 Defence exhibit. It doesn't matter, I suppose, because no doubt the
21 Chamber will treat them both equally.
22 JUDGE ORIE: No. It even has the advantage that we don't have to
23 disturb the numbering with jumping from Djordjevic to the next witness and
24 jumping back to Djordjevic. So Mr. Registrar, a D number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: D91, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: D91 is the number of the map.
2 THE REGISTRAR: And P986 remains free, available.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D986 then, it's available for the next Prosecution
4 Exhibit, yes. It should be P986.
5 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour, and P986 was the number that
6 would be conveniently assigned to the list of members of Novi Privrednik
7 should the Defence be -- and the Trial Chamber be content for that to be
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps, Mr. Stewart, could you make up your
10 mind already on whether it's worth at all to give it a number and then
11 perhaps review the list and let us know.
12 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour, perhaps we could just ask
13 Mr. Margetts to explain the relevance of the document and why the
14 Prosecution want it admitted and then we could make a decision here and
16 JUDGE ORIE: I give it a guess just to see whether I -- I can
17 imagine that this a first step in establishing who actually were the
18 shareholders or member of Novi Privrednik. I also can imagine that some
19 relevance is given to this document in relation to the answer the witness
20 gave to the question whether it was just SDS members or also others who
21 could become members and his answers to the question that he didn't
22 remember any of the names and -- well, I'm just guessing. I have not
23 looked at the list, but if his wife would be on that list, it might be a
25 MR. JOSSE: Would you give us a moment, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 MR. JOSSE: Yes, we have no objection; it's clearly admissible.
4 JUDGE ORIE: P986 is a list, undated, which bears the names of
5 Privrednik shareholders. That's at least what I understand from the top,
6 Mr. Josse. If there would be any objection against the description I just
7 gave, then -- because it's not translated yet.
8 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And it's not yet admitted because it still waits for
10 translation to be admitted.
11 I also wonder there if we don't pay any attention to all the
12 names. It's a long list. Whether -- I take it that the Prosecution wants
13 to draw our attention to some names or -- I mean, to have a list of
14 hundred names of people we don't know, of course we might decipher some of
15 the -- well, of the names we are familiar with, but again here, pages,
16 pages are to be translated, where for me at this moment most important is
17 to see what's on top of that list, what it presents.
18 MR. MARGETTS: Yes, Your Honour. In Your Honour's
19 characterisation of the relevance of the list, I can indicate that it was
20 a first step and it may be the case that there is some additional
21 explanation for who these people in fact are.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. I take it -- do you need a
23 full written translation in order to further orient yourself or would the
24 title do? Because I would suggest under those circumstances that if there
25 are specific names you'd like to draw our attention to, that you ask name
1 46 to be translated, 76, and other names, not -- and similarly, if the
2 Defence would like to demonstrate that these were not SDS members but that
3 perhaps the Queen of England is on the list or the president of the French
4 Republic, that they should point at certain names as well which they
5 consider relevant for us to understand the list better.
6 MR. MARGETTS: Yes. Your Honour, I would be surprised if some of
7 these people named were on the list. Nevertheless, because the nature of
8 the witness's answer, I think at this stage we consider it necessary to
9 translate all of the names.
10 JUDGE ORIE: All right. Take that effort and we'll then -- we'll
11 then give a decision on admission once the translation is there.
12 MR. MARGETTS: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 MR. STEWART: If Her Majesty is on the list, then as one of her
14 counsel, I shall have something to say about the matter, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. Let's first see whether her
16 name, if at all, will be highlighted by the Prosecution.
17 Any further matters?
18 MR. MARGETTS: No, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn until tomorrow afternoon, quarter
20 past two, same courtroom.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.45 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 9th day
23 of November, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.