Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18807

1 Monday, 21 November 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.21 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Mr. Registrar, would you

6 please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is IT-00-39-T,

8 the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 First of all, the Chamber apologises. It was for a small,

11 although urgent, medical reason that we have a delay of 20 minutes

12 starting the case.

13 Mr. Harmon, are you ready to cross-examine Mr. Banduka?

14 MR. HARMON: I'm ready, Your Honour, after the Defence concludes

15 its direct examination. I understand they have another hour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: One second.

17 Yes, that's right. We're not ready yet. So therefore, Mr. Josse,

18 I should have asked you whether you are ready to finish the

19 examination-in-chief of Mr. Banduka.

20 MR. JOSSE: I am, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Banduka into

22 the courtroom.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Banduka.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

Page 18808

1 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the

2 solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

3 Mr. Josse will now continue the examination-in-chief.

4 Mr. Josse, you may proceed.


6 [Witness answered through interpreter]

7 Examined by Mr. Josse: [Continued]

8 Q. Mr. Banduka, the first thing I want to ask you about this morning

9 is about the housing of some of the Muslim population of Hadzici in the

10 cultural sports centre.

11 Firstly, did you ever visit that place when it was used in that

12 capacity?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Who was running the place when it was used in that capacity?

15 A. Security was provided by the police, and the centre, at the moment

16 when it was opened as a protection centre, at the beginning it was the

17 Crisis Staff of the municipality that ran the centre.

18 Q. Who was housed there? Which sort of person?

19 A. Many individuals of different sex and age were accommodated there.

20 Primarily individuals of Muslim ethnicity for whom the Crisis Staff

21 thought that they would be best protected there from anything unpleasant

22 that might occur to them.

23 Q. The information that you received about the facilities within the

24 cultural sports centre came from where or from whom, please?

25 A. I was familiar with that centre before the war, because I spent a

Page 18809

1 lot of time there. This centre was part of the secondary school, and that

2 centre served as the school gymnasium. I know that the centre was

3 constructed in such a way that it had separate toilets for men and for

4 women, and it also had separate dressing-rooms for men and for women.

5 While people were accommodated there, we received some information. The

6 conditions were not too good, but in Hadzici we didn't have either a hotel

7 or a motel or any other sort of accommodation, and that's why we believe

8 that this facility would provide those who stayed there at the time with

9 the best possible conditions.

10 And I would like to add to that one more thing. Food that was

11 provided to those who were in the centre was the same that was provided to

12 everybody else in Hadzici who found refuge there and who came to perform

13 certain duties during that period of time.

14 Q. Were you aware of any instance of abuse or the suchlike of the

15 people who were housed in that centre?

16 A. I'm aware of an instance. I believe that this happened in

17 mid-June. We were informed that a certain group of people had stormed, so

18 to say, into that centre, and ill-treated people there, physically abused

19 some of the individuals there, that is to say.

20 At a meeting of the Crisis Staff, we decided that it was something

21 bad that happened at the hand of that group, and that's why we asked

22 members of the police, i.e., the leadership of the police, to remove those

23 people from our midst and to prevent anybody from entering those premises.

24 And I believe that this was done and that this was the only incident of

25 the sort, as far as I know.

Page 18810

1 On the order of the police, I believe that it was even the chief

2 of police who issued a written order. It was forbidden to anybody who did

3 not have the authority to enter the facility to go there. It was only the

4 police that were allowed to enter the sports hall.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, in view of the evidence the Chamber has

6 received, and before going into any ill-treatment of those who were housed

7 there, can you imagine that the first burning question for the Chamber is

8 a different one, that is, whether those that were housed were free to go

9 or not. I mean, we'd like to know whether this witness is talking about a

10 reception centre or about a detention facility. Wouldn't that be the

11 logical first issue to be explored? Because it remains rather vague this

12 way. And therefore, perhaps it's a matter to be dealt with.

13 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


16 Q. Are you able to help the Chamber as to whether the people who were

17 housed in this centre were free to come and go?

18 A. I think that they could come in and go out, but I think that the

19 personnel that provided security for the centre had to be consulted. They

20 had to give their approval. The centre was opened in order to protect

21 those individuals after the killings on both sides. There was an imminent

22 danger that somebody else might get killed.

23 In other words, I think that the persons who stayed in the centre

24 could go out, provided that it was approved by the personnel that secured

25 the centre.

Page 18811

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we ask how often such approval was applied for

2 and ...


4 Q. You heard the learned Judge's question, Mr. Banduka. Are you able

5 to help with that?

6 A. I'm afraid I can't provide you with those details, because those

7 are details.

8 JUDGE ORIE: They're not details, Mr. Banduka. It is in the core

9 of the issue. The core of the issue, whether people were detained there

10 or whether people were protected there. If you say, "I don't know whether

11 they applied for getting out," that means that they could not, on their

12 own, decide to leave that facility.

13 And therefore, it's of -- it's not a detail, but it's the core of

14 the issue whether they actually applied for and could leave the place, or

15 whether they, as a matter of fact, were refused to leave that place. Do

16 you understand that it's not a detail but that it's rather essential? Did

17 you hear anything about it, apart from any -- I'm not asking about Mr. A

18 or Madam B, but did you hear about free movement in or out or considerable

19 restrictions to that freedom of movement?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said details, I meant to say

21 that I wouldn't know how many such cases there were. I believe that the

22 movement of these people was restricted, i.e., those who wanted to get out

23 obviously had to talk to the persons, either the policemen who provided

24 the security for the facility. I don't think that there were any special

25 restrictions because people were accommodated there for their own

Page 18812

1 protection. We even had cases and situations that people came to the

2 municipality and they asked to be accommodated there, because that's where

3 they felt the safest.

4 As of mid-May, or rather, the day from when the centre was opened,

5 there were some sort of exchanges. People expressed a desire to leave and

6 go to the Muslim territory. There were restrictions in one sense, but

7 also there was freedom of movement and freedom to go out of the centre.

8 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, where you said "we even had cases and

9 situations that people came to the municipality and they asked to be

10 accommodated," does that mean that there were other cases, and may I take

11 it from your answer that the other cases were certainly not less frequent

12 that people came there without having applied to be admitted to that

13 centre?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have already said it several

15 times. This was a protective measure, primarily. It was an act of

16 protection to provide security for these people. We did not have enough

17 police officers or civilian protection staff who could provide security

18 for literally every house.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. It's not an answer to my

20 question. You continue to emphasise the reasons why people were there.

21 My question was whether they were all there because they had asked to be

22 admitted or whether some of them were brought there because your people

23 thought that they would be safer there, and therefore they had to be

24 brought to that place.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] More or less, people went there on a

Page 18813

1 voluntary basis.

2 JUDGE ORIE: What does that mean, more or less? To what extent

3 less and to what extent more?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, in practical terms, when most

5 of one neighbourhood or one village expressed a desire to go there, there

6 were also people who stayed in their homes. However, when a majority

7 left, then either them or we estimated that the minority who had remained

8 would find themselves in dire straits. They would be ill-treated, and so

9 on and so forth.

10 JUDGE ORIE: To cut it short: There were people who might not

11 have wished to go there, but since you thought it better for their

12 protection, they were forced to join the others in this facility; is that

13 a correct understanding?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Forced" is a very serious term.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but they had to join the others; is that a

16 correct understanding?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't have to. Based on some

18 agreements, based on some estimates, assessments, people concluded that

19 they would be safer there. It was more persuasion than anything else.

20 They were more persuaded than being forced to go there, as far as I know.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau has a question for you.

22 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Witness, you told us that this

23 housing centre, let's call it that way, was set up by the Crisis Staff.

24 Did I understand you right?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 18814

1 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And you were a member of the

2 Crisis Staff at the time, weren't you?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] When an organisation, whatever it

5 is, takes on the responsibility of setting up a housing or accommodation

6 centre that will accommodate a large number of people, I suppose that this

7 organisation that has set up the centre takes measures in order to check

8 what's going on, how things are going, because this organisation is

9 responsible for the centre it has created. My question is the following:

10 Did you personally try to see how things were developing in the centre?

11 Did you yourself, on your own or with other people, did you go there, or

12 would colleagues from the Crisis Staff regularly go to the housing or

13 accommodation centre in order to see what was going on there?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course we were informed about the

15 conditions, and I've already spoken about that.

16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Sorry, but my question was very

17 specific. I was asking you if you ever went there to see how things were

18 going, how things were proceeding there.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have already answered that, and I

20 said that I never went there. I had some other tasks and duties.

21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And when incidents took place,

22 you told us that men entered there by force and things, that there were

23 problems with people within the centre. The police was ordered to evict

24 these attackers. Did you go there to see what had been going on? Did you

25 go there on the spot? Because a very serious incident had taken place,

Page 18815

1 apparently. Did you go there at the time?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't go there. At the time,

3 I may not have even been there. We could not issue orders to the police.

4 It was not the Crisis Staff that controlled the police, and we couldn't

5 issue orders to them. We stated that what had happened was an ugly thing,

6 and that is why we recommended and we requested from the police to prevent

7 any such incidents from happening in the future. We did not have any

8 authority over the police, or, to be more precise, there were very few

9 policemen that provided security for the centre. And as far as I know,

10 the policemen who provided security for the centre could not stand up to

11 that group that broke into the centre, because there were too few of them.

12 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, but in your mind, don't you

13 acknowledge that when you set up such an organisation, which is very

14 specific in this background we are all aware with, when you set up such a

15 centre, when you take on the responsibility of setting up such a centre,

16 don't you then have the duty to go there on the spot to monitor, to

17 control what's going on there?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not the only member of the

19 Crisis Staff, and I couldn't be in a hundred places at the same time. I've

20 already told you that I didn't go to the centre. When this incident

21 happened, my house had already burned down, my family had already been

22 scattered all over the place. I had my personal problems. There was

23 shelling every day. A lot of refugees arrived in Hadzici from Zenica and

24 other parts of Bosnia. You have to appreciate that we could not control

25 every single detail. We couldn't monitor everything.

Page 18816

1 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 JUDGE ORIE: One additional question, a very short question. You

3 said you never went there. Do you know of any other member of the Crisis

4 Staff who went there?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened 13 years ago. Those

6 are tiny details, and I'm afraid I can't remember as I sit here. I

7 suppose somebody did go there.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, you may proceed.


10 Q. Let's deal firstly with Muslims. People who were suspected of

11 having broken the law, where were they taken?

12 A. Let me first tell you that the police station in Hadzici, which

13 did have a detention unit before the conflict broke out, was damaged, or

14 partly torched, at the beginning of the conflict, and the police had moved

15 out and they found new premises in the municipality building. As far as I

16 know, on the ground floor of the municipality building, there was a

17 makeshift detention unit, and those who had opened fire or had done

18 something that had to be investigated by the police were brought to that

19 detention unit.

20 Q. And if they were going to be detained for a longer period of time,

21 where did they then go?

22 A. For quite some time, nobody was detained. Around the 20th of

23 June, as far as I can remember, all those for whom the police had some

24 information or had done something about them were transferred to the Kula

25 prison, which was a proper prison, in keeping with the laws of the then

Page 18817

1 Republika Srpska. In other words, I think that nobody spent over a month

2 in that detention unit, and under the law, even today, anybody can be kept

3 in custody for up to one month.

4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Sorry, Mr. Josse, but there's a

5 specific item that we find interesting, because this Kula centre has been

6 mentioned several times, and when we review the documents we have here, we

7 can't identify where this Kula centre is located. Can you tell us where

8 it was located? Was it located in your municipality? Was it located in a

9 village of your municipality? Could you give us that information, please.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Kula prison was not in the

11 territory of our municipality. It is in a different municipality, in the

12 municipality of Ilidza, which is some 20 kilometres away from the Hadzici

13 municipality. It was a prison even in the former Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 This was provided by the law of the pre-war Bosnia and Herzegovina state.

15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you for this specification.


17 Q. On that subject, Mr. Banduka, am I right the Kula prison is in

18 Lukavica?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And we've heard in this Court about the Lukavica barracks. Do you

21 know the distance between the barracks and the prison?

22 A. Between the barracks and the prison, up to two kilometres, I would

23 say. There were two barracks in Lukavica, and the distance from one of

24 them is some two kilometres, and from the other, maybe three kilometres or

25 so.

Page 18818

1 Q. What about prisoners of war? Where were they detained?

2 A. What prisoners of war are you referring to?

3 Q. Well, I'm referring to anyone that might have been caught in the

4 course of fighting, or a soldier from the other side, a Muslim soldier,

5 who had surrendered; anything along those lines is what I had in mind.

6 A. I have already told you that it was a makeshift detention unit,

7 where people were kept up to the month of June, the 20th of June. This

8 was on the ground floor of the municipality building. And after that,

9 they were transferred to the Kula prison. And later on, as the war

10 progressed, there was no detention in Hadzici. And when it came to the

11 prisoners of war that you're asking me about, it was the matter for the

12 army. I don't know whether the army had some sort of a detention or not.

13 Q. Now, Serbs who had been detained by Muslim or Muslim forces, where

14 were they detained?

15 A. According to my information and the information that is widely

16 known, in Tarcin, that is in the part of the municipality that was under

17 the control of Muslims, there were three such prisoners or camps, as those

18 people called them. One was a silo in Tarcin, the Krupska Rijeka

19 barracks, in Zovik, and the primary school in Pazarici also served as a

20 prison for a while, as far as I know.

21 Q. And I think we can deal with this quite broadly. So far as Silos

22 is concerned, after the war, you have obtained quite a large number of

23 statements from people who were detained there; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you've said that was in Tarcin, which was in the municipality.

Page 18819

1 What was that building before the war, before it was used as a place of

2 detention of Serbs?

3 A. This was a storage for wheat. It was huge. I just happened to go

4 there before the war, because this is where we bought [as interpreted]

5 wheat. The silo was split into different parts. I don't know how much

6 wheat it contained. All of these compartments that used to store wheat

7 were emptied and they were turned into cells for prisoners. This camp, or

8 prison, whatever you want to call it, was established on the 11th of May,

9 and the first Serb prisoners were taken there from the territory that was

10 under the control of Muslims. And as I already said during the first day

11 of my testimony, this is where the prisoners for that prison came from,

12 from the territory that was controlled by Muslims.

13 Q. The information you have just given the Chamber, for example, that

14 the prison was established on the 11th of May in Silos, where does that

15 information come from?

16 A. Let me tell you. As I have already said, before the war broke

17 out, we had a line, a separation line that separated the Serbs from the

18 Muslims that I showed you on the map. In the early days of May, people

19 still crossed from one side to the other through various channels.

20 Hadzici borders on the municipality of Kiseljak, which is a predominantly

21 Croat municipality, so from the territory that was under the control of

22 Croats, people could go from one side to another. The Croats acted as

23 mediators in that. And that's where the initial information came from,

24 directly from people who had left Tarcin and Pazarici and arrived in our

25 territory brought news to us about that prison.

Page 18820

1 And the system of exchanges, if I may call it that, started as

2 early as June. Individuals and groups were involved in that, and it was

3 only later that the commissions for exchanges were established. But the

4 exchanges were taking place all throughout the war, and those people who

5 had been exchanged brought fresh information as to what was going on on

6 the other side and what facilities had been put in place and served as

7 prisons.

8 Q. It's right that you have brought with you a number of statements

9 from people who were detained in the camp in Tarcin at Silos; is that

10 right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And I'm not going to put them in evidence in this way,

13 Your Honour, but I just want to ask the witness this: A number of these

14 people you knew, a number, at least one or two, were on the list of

15 members of the Municipal Assembly that you showed us last week?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You also brought with you a document that relates to prisoner of

18 war exchange in relation to the commission that you've just referred to;

19 is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, the Defence, so to speak, are lucky in

22 relation to this, because the Prosecution had already had this document

23 and had had it properly translated. So though it doesn't appear in

24 Your Honours' bundle, it's about to, and with an official translation, I'm

25 glad to say.

Page 18821


2 MR. JOSSE: We've got plenty of copies. If they could be handed

3 out, please.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please provide them, and to the

5 witness.

6 Mr. Josse, when you referred to the members of the Municipal

7 Assembly, we have a list of deputies who attended and we have a list of

8 candidates. Which one were you referring to?

9 MR. JOSSE: Could the witness -- I'll come to that document in a

10 moment. Could the witness have Exhibit D103? Could he also have tab 3,

11 which we haven't yet sought to admit in evidence. I think I will at this

12 point in time, bearing in mind that question. D103, which is tab 1, and

13 tab 3, which is presently unnumbered. It might, Madam Usher, be best if

14 the witness actually had the document in front of him. We've all got

15 copies -- he has.

16 Q. Are you able to help us, by reference to that document, as to whom

17 you know was detained, and also from whom you obtained a statement? Two

18 different questions. Perhaps -- sorry. Go ahead, Mr. Banduka. Otherwise

19 I think I can help you.

20 A. Here on the screen, under 9, Radojka Pandurevic. I got a

21 statement from her. She left the prison in January 1996.

22 Q. And if we go to tab 3, please, we see that she is number 18; is

23 that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And I think it's also right, isn't it -- I hope I can be permitted

Page 18822

1 to lead in this way. If we look at number 30 on tab 3, that's Branko

2 Golub from -- he is described as a --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- detainee from another statement; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And exactly the same position so far as number 39 is concerned,

7 Mr., I assume it is, Samoukovic?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. As far as you are aware, looking either at tab 1 or tab 3, were

10 any other members of the Municipal Assembly a prisoner, either in the

11 course of fighting or in some other way?

12 A. In tab 1, Milo Bratic, number 13.

13 Q. He was in the democratic socialist alliance; is that correct?

14 A. The League of Communists, the Socialist Democratic Party.

15 Q. Anyone else?

16 A. Just a moment, please. Radmilo Acimovic, number 16, the same. The

17 League of Communists, the Socialist Democratic Party. But Radmilo

18 Acimovic - I'm not sure - he was not there all the time, or rather, I

19 think he was exchanged in 1993, whereas Mr. Bratic, who is under number

20 13, also spent the entire war in prison.

21 Then, Simo Lalusic, Democratic Socialist Alliance, Union of the

22 Reformist Forces of Yugoslavia, under number 39. Then Sreten Samoukovic,

23 the League of Communists, the Socialist Democratic Party, number 19. That

24 would be about it. That's as much as I can remember.

25 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could I just make this brief observation?

Page 18823

1 Your Honour might recall asking why this one had been printed in full, and

2 Mr. Krajisnik gave some instructions which I didn't repeat at that time.

3 It was, to be fair to Mr. Krajisnik, for this exact reason. Those were

4 the instructions he in fact gave me.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. But may just ask you,

6 Mr. Harmon: At this moment, Mr. Josse makes an effort in establishing

7 that a number of members of the Municipal Assembly were detained by

8 Muslims. Is that something which is -- and were detained, some of them,

9 for a very long period of time. Is that contested by the Prosecution,

10 apart from how relevant you consider it to be?

11 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, aside from the relevance objection, I

12 have no information to dispute this at the present time.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And if Mr. Josse would have asked the witness whether

14 it's -- whether there were a considerable number of people detained for a

15 longer period of time, would that have caused you to contest that at a

16 later stage?

17 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, it may be clear that apart from the

19 relevance issue, where you said this is mainly background, I do understand

20 that the Prosecution would not seek to undermine a -- I would say a

21 testimony which would have said the same without all of the details. Of

22 course, if it would have been contested, then you would have that list and

23 you could say: Is it true that it's this person, that person, that

24 person. But we now spend a lot of time on finding out whether there was

25 Mr. A, B, C, or Mrs. A, B, C, which might not be of such importance at a

Page 18824

1 later stage.

2 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I wasn't going to ask those questions. I

3 only asked them because Your Honour raised the subject. Your Honour

4 specifically asked the witness to look at the document, and --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then --

6 MR. JOSSE: Otherwise I --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Then there was some misunderstanding. It was unclear

8 whether you were referring to tab 3 or tab 1.

9 MR. JOSSE: I'm sorry.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Because neither of these, as a matter of fact, is a

11 list of members of the municipality. One is an attendance list, and of

12 course one could consider those who attended to be members. But it

13 doesn't mean that those who did not attend were not members. And the

14 other one was a candidates list. That's the only reason. But this is a

15 complete misunderstanding.

16 MR. JOSSE: I thought Your Honour was interested in the point and

17 that's why I then developed it.

18 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, it was a malcommunication. I just wanted to

19 know whether you referred to tab 1 or to tab 3.

20 MR. JOSSE: Could tab 3 be given a number, bearing in mind --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Certainly now it needs a number.

22 MR. JOSSE: Thank you. And I'm going to move on.


24 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D110, Your Honours.

25 MR. JOSSE: And perhaps the witness could now have a look and

Page 18825

1 deal, I think fairly speedily, with the municipal Commission for Exchange

2 of prisoners of war in late 1992. He'll obviously need the B/C/S version.

3 Q. Briefly, if you can, Mr. Banduka: What was the commission?

4 A. It was a commission that had been established by the Municipal

5 Assembly for the exchange of detained persons.

6 Q. To what extent were you involved in the commission?

7 A. Well, very little, or rather, just to the extent to which I

8 attended meetings of the Municipal Assembly, where information was

9 provided about the work of the commission. So that would be it. The

10 amount of information that I received at meetings of the Municipal

11 Assembly.

12 MR. JOSSE: Could I simply ask that this be given a number,

13 please.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

15 THE REGISTRAR: D111, Your Honours.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

17 MR. JOSSE: The next piece of evidence, Your Honour, I'm going to

18 ostensibly lead on it, not dissimilar to what we've heard in one sense,

19 and I suspect it will not be challenged. But if my learned friend takes

20 objection at any point, then no doubt he will stop me.

21 Q. You became a member of a commission for the confirmation of crimes

22 against the Serb population; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And what did that mean? What was your role as a member of that

25 commission?

Page 18826

1 A. Well, as soon as we had our first victims, we decided, on the

2 basis of the experience we had, too, from some other wars, or rather, such

3 situations, we established a commission which was supposed to deal with

4 all the facts, or rather, to state which were the crimes that were

5 committed at a given point in time.

6 Q. And your worst personal experience in the course of doing the job

7 was on the 26th of May, when you went to a village called Kasatici; is

8 that correct? Is that right, Mr. Banduka? Yes. I see you nodding your

9 head.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. This village had come under attack the day before and 26 people

14 within the village had been killed?

15 A. I have to make a small correction. Not all the people were local

16 people. It was a mixed population, and, as I said, on the first day, in a

17 way it was divided. In one part, the Serbs were a majority, and in the

18 other part the Muslims were a majority. It was an all-out attack and

19 there were barracks nearby or rather some lines were already there. There

20 was a total of 25 fatalities. Some were fighters, defenders of the

21 territory, and five local civilians got killed as well.

22 Q. And you saw the bodies of some or all of those civilians; correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. They came from a family called Milosevic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18827

1 Q. And the two older members of the family who were over 60 had been

2 killed at their doorstep?

3 A. Yes. May I describe this? I'll be very brief.

4 Q. Please.

5 A. Actually, at that time, the commission was not complete, but there

6 was fear. A woman was supposed to be there, a nurse, a doctor, another

7 lawyer. But most of them, out of fear, did not attend. Having realised

8 that a crime had been committed and that the Muslims had penetrated into

9 that part of the village where these people got killed, we carefully came

10 to the scene and we saw this sight in the yard of the family house. In an

11 area that was about as big as this courtroom, that's how big the yard was,

12 that is where we found four bodies. Dejan Milosevic and Jolanka [phoen]

13 Milosevic, who were old people, they were a married couple, then their son

14 Aco, who was around my age, 40-ish, and the fourth one was Srdjan

15 Milosevic, a close relative of theirs, who was partly retarded too.

16 Namely, his eyesight was not good.

17 They stayed in that part of the village, so that the army, or

18 rather, the Muslim armed forces that came by torched the area and killed

19 the four of them. This is vividly before my eyes, as if I could see it

20 even now. The old woman had been shot in the back. Dejan was lying on

21 his back and the young Srdjan who was hit, had his trousers torn in the

22 genital area, whereas Aco was lying and he held his hands like this.

23 MR. HARMON: Let me object to this, Your Honour. Again, I come

24 back to the issue of tu quoque, and I ask my learned friend for the

25 relevancy of this information, and particularly in this detail.

Page 18828

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I do understand that this testimony is

2 not presented in the context of tu quoque. At the same time, Mr. Josse,

3 perhaps if we look at the answers and the details of the answers of the

4 witness, of course we should take care that the background is not depicted

5 in more detail as what is on the foreground.

6 MR. JOSSE: I accept Your Honour's observations.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed. We do understand from the

8 testimony of this witness that cruel things happened in a way which shows

9 certainly some similarity - I'm not talking about quantity, but certainly

10 at this moment about quality - where Serbs were victims of atrocities.


12 Q. Let me move on to a different topic, one of more general

13 application, Mr. Banduka, the water-supply in Hadzici. Tell the Chamber

14 about that, please.

15 A. Well, let me tell you. As soon as the war broke out, and I've

16 described that already, for the most part, Hadzici remained without water.

17 Actually, Hadzici got its water from four or five different sources before

18 the war. Since Hadzici is in a valley and the sources of water were

19 actual water sources, they were under Muslim control, most of them, except

20 for one particular water source which was there to supply the technical

21 overhaul institute. And a smaller part of town was on the other side of

22 the river.

23 The rest of the territory of the municipality of Hadzici remained

24 without water, immediately, because the Muslims closed off all supplies,

25 because the water sources were on their side and that's the way it was

Page 18829

1 primarily -- or rather, throughout the war.

2 Q. And how was the water -- how and when was the water restored?

3 A. There were attempts made, in spite of the war. In 1993 an attempt

4 was made, or rather, there was a meeting arranged through the UNHCR and

5 UNPROFOR. The Muslim and the Serb sides met, and some kind of exchange of

6 civilians was agreed upon then, that is to say, they went from one side to

7 the other. And also what was said was that water and electricity should

8 be made available. I think that there was water only for a day or two,

9 and then it was shut off again.

10 So in 1994, we dug a few wells, four wells, with the assistance of

11 the ODA, an English organisation, and that is the first time we managed to

12 ensure water-supply. Before that, we got water on trucks and in other

13 ways.

14 Q. And I think a British government minister came to visit this

15 particular --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, do we really have to go into -- I mean, we

17 are going into details. I do understand that the witness wants to bring

18 to our attention as a contextual background information that water

19 supplies under the control of the Muslims were manipulated to the expense

20 of the Serbian population and most of the sources of water. If we go into

21 all kind of details, then the Chamber will have to -- I mean, whether it

22 was a British minister or a French minister or a Portuguese minister,

23 whether there were any negotiations meanwhile that failed -- should we

24 have to establish that, whose fault it was that they failed? It's clear

25 that this witness, from his recollection, tells us that there was an

Page 18830

1 unfair treatment of the Serbs by the Muslims in the manipulation of water

2 supplies. That depicts part of the background. I really wonder whether

3 we should go into further detail, because every new piece of information

4 will create the need to clarify issues, et cetera.

5 So therefore, for the time being, perhaps we leave it at that. I

6 didn't want to cut you off when a British minister comes in, so if that is

7 really of relevance, Mr. Josse, please present your British minister and

8 then we'll move on to the next subject.

9 MR. JOSSE: No, Your Honour. Could I just say, if Your Honour

10 re-makes that observation, in general, I will almost invariably move on.

11 So if Your Honours says enough of this to me, I will very rarely stand my

12 ground and argue. I will generally move on.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, it's also an encouragement to seek the

14 moment yourself when a little bit of information -- and you could even

15 talk about it with Mr. Harmon and say: I want to present this and this

16 and this. I'd rather in a very short way to depict part of the

17 background. Would that cause a lot of problems, yes or no? And then you

18 know yourself more or less. Please proceed.

19 MR. JOSSE: I understand.

20 Q. When did you become president of the Executive Committee of

21 Hadzici?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. When?

24 A. On the 26th of December, I think, that an Assembly meeting was

25 held, in 1992. So then it was from the 1st of January, 1993 that I held

Page 18831

1 the position, all the way up to the end of the war.

2 Q. Thank you. I'd like you now to have a look, please, at this

3 document.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That is a new document?

5 MR. JOSSE: It's not, Your Honour. It's a Variant A and B

6 document.



9 Q. Now, you've had an opportunity to read this document; is that

10 correct?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Have you seen it before?

13 A. No.

14 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, Your Honour. Again we're going into

15 testimony at this juncture that is not identified on the 65 ter summary.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse. Or would you consider it a rule of

17 customary law that the document A and B document will be presented to any

18 witness?

19 MR. JOSSE: I will present it to virtually every witness I call.

20 That is correct.

21 JUDGE ORIE: We experience that very often. It doesn't take much

22 time, Mr. --

23 MR. HARMON: I understand that, Your Honour, but in terms of the

24 facts that the witness is going to provide in respect of --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Whether or not --

Page 18832

1 MR. HARMON: It should be provided to the Prosecutor, pursuant to

2 Rule 65 ter.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, would you please include in your 65 ter

4 summaries in the future mainly what you expect the witness to testify

5 about in the documents.

6 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

7 Q. Can you help us at all with any observations or evidence about

8 that document?

9 A. Well, I have nothing to say, no observations to make.

10 Q. Thank you. I'll have it back.

11 A. I see that the document is dated the 19th of December, 1991, and

12 at the end I see the Crisis Staff. No, I mean really, I am not aware of

13 the existence of the Crisis Staff in December 1991. I don't understand

14 this.

15 Q. I'll have it back. Thank you.

16 As far as you are aware, did Mr. Krajisnik come to Hadzici in

17 1992?

18 A. As far as I know, no.

19 Q. Did you have any dealings with Mr. Krajisnik in 1992?

20 A. In 1992, I and Mr. Lubura, who was also a member of the Crisis

21 Staff - I think it was the month of June - we paid a visit to the wounded

22 in the hospital at Sokolac in Pale, and that's when we stopped by at the

23 meeting where the gentlemen of the Presidency were, and we saw Biljana

24 Plavsic a bit, and then, separately, Mr. Krajisnik too.

25 Q. And what happened at the meeting with Mr. Krajisnik? What was

Page 18833

1 said? What was the purpose of it?

2 A. Well, I've already said. We had already gone as some kind of

3 representatives to visit our wounded, and there were a lot of them. And

4 we simply took that opportunity to stop by, to get some information about

5 the general situation, and to talk a bit about everything, or rather,

6 about what was going on in Hadzici, what kind of situation we were facing,

7 how we lived. It was sort of - how should I put this - a discussion at a

8 humane level, between us who were staying in Hadzici at the time, and that

9 was part of Sarajevsko Polje, Hadzici, Ilijas, Vogosca, Rajlovac, even

10 before the war, and we were cut off from the rest of Republika Srpska. We

11 didn't have any proper communication. In order to reach Pale we had to

12 take forest paths, village paths and they were constantly under fire,

13 right?

14 So we went through an area that was very difficult to negotiate.

15 So we wanted to have this talk, and in addition to that, Mr. Krajisnik is

16 from that area, so it was the right thing to do. It is what any human

17 being would have done, to stop by and have a chat.

18 Q. Finally, I want to ask you this: You've already told the Chamber

19 that you left Hadzici after the Dayton Agreement. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. What did you understand was the position Mr. Krajisnik was taking

22 at that time in relation to whether Serbs should leave the Sarajevo area

23 following that agreement?

24 A. My personal belief is that Mr. Krajisnik sincerely wanted and

25 strived as much as was under our authority for us to stay in Hadzici, not

Page 18834

1 to leave it.

2 Q. How did that manifest itself, if at all? In other words, why is

3 it that you say that?

4 A. At the time, and I'm either fortunate or misfortunate to testify

5 today, at the anniversary of the Dayton Accord, although we did not have

6 electricity in Hadzici at the time, we only learnt one day later what had

7 happened in Dayton. After that we would meet frequently with the

8 leadership or the government, with Mr. Krajisnik. Those meetings would

9 take place in Vogosca and we would analyse the situation. And at all

10 those meetings Mr. Krajisnik was in favour of us staying, of people not

11 leaving. At those meetings, certain conclusions were arrived at. Even

12 the police checkpoints were put up in order to prevent people from

13 leaving, not physically prevent them from leaving but to prevent the

14 floodgate being opened to people leaving.

15 As you know, ugly things happened, and all of his efforts were to

16 that effect. During that period of time, from the Dayton Accords until

17 the moment we left on the 6th of March, Mr. Krajisnik spent some time in

18 Hadzici, and he was in the hall at a meeting which was attended by some

19 three or four thousand people. And his concept was for us to stay.

20 However, this had already taken off the ground. The resettlement was

21 under way, and the first people who left Hadzici were the ones who had

22 found refuge in Hadzici. We had some 5.000 people from Zenica, and as you

23 know, about 15.000 Serbs had moved out from Zenica. They were the first

24 ones to start leaving and the others followed suit and after that it was

25 very difficult to put a stop to that.

Page 18835

1 MR. JOSSE: I've no further questions, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then this would be a suitable time for a break. We'll

3 adjourn until 11.00.

4 Mr. Banduka, after the break, you'll be cross-examined by

5 Mr. Harmon, counsel for the Prosecution.

6 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give you an opportunity, Mr. Harmon, to

9 cross-examine the witness, the issue with the videos, has that been

10 resolved? I did understand that -- of course, we have not seen the

11 videos, but that they might be fit to be introduced as contextual

12 exhibits. Is there any further information about it?

13 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour, I did in fact e-mail over the

14 weekend one of Your Honour's legal officers, as a courtesy more than

15 anything else. But could I tell the Court this: Though I personally

16 haven't viewed either video, they have been viewed by a member of our

17 team. One of them we would in due course like to adduce in evidence in

18 some way. The e-mail to the legal officer was an inquiry as to --

19 JUDGE ORIE: I've seen that e-mail. So I do understand that you

20 are still in the process of determining whether and to what extent this

21 one video would be appropriate to tender as an exhibit, not introduced

22 through the witness itself. And I take it that then Mr. Harmon will have

23 an opportunity to look at it first.

24 MR. JOSSE: Of course he will, and I was about to say I hasn't as

25 yet had that opportunity. I was about to emphasise that.

Page 18836

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That means that of course the determination

2 now -- it means once the witness has returned, the chance to recall him

3 for those purposes might be small. So it's up to you at this moment to

4 have a closer look at what kind of material is on that video. If it's

5 something the witness has any first-hand, personal knowledge and if you

6 find it important enough, then of course it would be a bad idea to present

7 it as a contextual exhibit. If, however, it's really context rather than

8 direct knowledge of the witness, then we could proceed along the road you

9 suggested.

10 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I'm aware of that. I mean, broadly

11 speaking, that was the instruction I gave to the staff member who viewed

12 the video. Having said that, I take responsibility for any decision that

13 they make, because ultimately it's my responsibility, not theirs.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Of course I do understand. Then, Mr. Harmon, are you

15 ready to cross-examine Mr. Banduka?

16 MR. HARMON: I am. Thank you very much.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Harmon:

19 Q. Mr. Banduka, good morning. Mr. Banduka, you testified that you

20 left the municipality of Hadzici after Dayton and you went to Bratunac,

21 did you not?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You became -- did you not become the president of the Presidency

24 in Bratunac?

25 A. What Presidency? I don't understand.

Page 18837

1 Q. Did you become the chairman of the SDS Municipal Board after

2 Miroslav Deronjic withdrew his candidacy?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, you testified earlier that you were in the army from July of

5 1992 until December of 1992. In which unit did you serve? What was the

6 name of your unit?

7 A. It was a battalion.

8 Q. What was the name of the battalion?

9 A. The 4th Battalion of the Igman Brigade.

10 Q. What was your rank?

11 A. I did not have any.

12 Q. What were your responsibilities?

13 A. I was the assistant commander for moral guidance.

14 Q. Tell us about what that entails.

15 A. This entails that, as the assistant commander for moral guidance,

16 you had to look after the morale of the troops, the way they are informed,

17 the access they have to information.

18 Q. You had to inform them, did you not, about the policies and the --

19 of the Republika Srpska; you had to inform them of the actions that were

20 being planned in order to ensure that they fulfilled the objectives of the

21 Republika Srpska leadership; is that correct?

22 A. Well, yes.

23 Q. And as such, you had to inform them, as a result of information

24 you received from higher levels, what were the objectives of the -- the

25 strategic objectives of the army that they were attempting to achieve; is

Page 18838

1 that correct?

2 A. Let me tell you. We had very bad communication with the

3 leadership of Republika Srpska, bad in technical terms, I mean. The

4 communication was very often interrupted. It was very difficult for us to

5 physically go to Pale, to the headquarters --

6 Q. I'm not asking you a question about communications. We'll get to

7 that in due course, Mr. Banduka. My question to you was: You had to

8 inform your people in your units of information that was received from

9 higher levels, including the strategic objectives that the army was

10 attempting to achieve; wasn't that part of your duty and responsibility?

11 A. That would have been the case if we had been a professional army

12 the way you see it. We were a defence army, the army that protected their

13 homes. The army in this case never spoke about any strategic goals. I

14 was more in charge of introducing some order and boost morale of the

15 troops. That's the way we call it, to boost morale.

16 There was a lot of fear. We were completely encircled. Our goal

17 was to defend our homes and to save our lives.

18 Q. Are you saying that you were unaware, in 1992, of what the

19 objectives were of the political leadership in the Republika Srpska? Is

20 that your testimony?

21 A. I don't know what political objectives you are referring to.

22 Q. I'm referring to the objectives of -- that were enunciated on the

23 12th of May, 1992, in the Assembly of the Bosnian Serbs, in which a number

24 of objectives were enunciated, the first of which was the separation of

25 the Muslims from the other peoples, Muslims and Croats from the other --

Page 18839

1 from the Serbs. Were you unaware of that objective, Mr. Banduka?

2 A. No.

3 Q. You were not unaware -- you were aware of the objective, then; is

4 that correct?

5 A. I was not, and I'm not aware of the details that you are

6 mentioning.

7 Q. I'll change the subject, Mr. Banduka. Let's talk about the

8 Defence Council that you testified to in your previous testimony. It's

9 found -- the evidence is found at page 28 of the LiveNote.

10 You testified that following the multi-party elections, Hadzici

11 had a Municipal Assembly that functioned, and you mentioned a group called

12 the council for National Defence. And I'd like to show you the first

13 exhibit. It is found in tab 1 of the binder.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Has it got a number already?

15 MR. HARMON: It does not, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Registrar.

17 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1001, Your Honours.


19 Q. Mr. Banduka, what I'm showing you, and I'd like to direct your

20 attention to, the document in front of you is Articles 68 and 69, and this

21 is an excerpt from the Law on All People's Defence from the Socialist

22 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. This refers to a Council for national

23 Defence. And my question is: Did --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, before you put a question to the witness,

25 my list tells you that it would be Prosecution Exhibit 64, which is a

Page 18840

1 complex exhibit with a lot of tab numbers, from what I understand.

2 MR. HARMON: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please find out soon what binder, what tab,

4 in P64 it is.

5 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


8 Q. Mr. Banduka, was the Council for National Defence that you

9 referred to, which was the only functioning body up until mid-April of

10 1992, was it a body that was based on this legislation? In other words,

11 did the Municipal Assembly of Hadzici create a Council for National

12 Defence, as required by the law, Article 68?

13 A. While the Assembly was still operational or, as I've said, it was

14 operational up until October, up to the moment when the SDS members

15 attended those meetings, this council did not exist. It was established

16 after that.

17 Q. Okay. Then you can put that exhibit aside, Mr. Banduka.

18 Who participated from the Bosnian Serb side in what you referred

19 to as the Council for National Defence?

20 A. I don't remember.

21 Q. Did Ratko Radic participate in those meetings?

22 A. It is possible, given the fact that this council was not

23 established by the Assembly in a procedure that was provided for by the

24 law that you have just quoted from.

25 Q. Did you ever attend any of those meetings of the Council for

Page 18841

1 National Defence?

2 A. No.

3 Q. I'd like to try to refresh your recollection. Did you attend a

4 meeting with Muslim representatives, Mr. Banduka, where the main issue

5 that was under discussion was the issue of the division of the police

6 force with the Muslims taking the position that the police force should

7 remain multi-ethnic and the Serbs insisting on dividing the police force?

8 Did you attend such a meeting?

9 A. I did attend some meetings. I don't remember whether I attended

10 this particular one. There was some civic council composed of different

11 people, different political options, and we talked about restoring order,

12 calming the situation, and things like that. I don't remember whether I

13 attended this particular meeting that you're referring to.

14 Q. When you say you participated in some meetings with the civic

15 council, composed of different people, were those different people members

16 of the SDS and members of the SDA?

17 A. Yes. Of both. The term "civic" means that representatives of all

18 political options were represented in it. People who enjoyed reputation,

19 who were not members of any party, who were not members of the Assembly,

20 only respectable people, people who were held in high esteem, who were

21 prominent people in society, they attended those meetings and they were

22 members of this council.

23 Q. How many such meetings did you personally attend, Mr. Banduka?

24 A. I really can't remember. Such meetings were held quite often on

25 the eve of some conflicts. Then they would be interrupted and then

Page 18842

1 continued. It was the time of confusion, and it is very difficult for me

2 to say, as I sit here, how many of such meetings I attended at the time.

3 Q. Let's talk about the content of some of those meetings,

4 Mr. Banduka. At some of those meetings, did representatives of the SDS

5 party assert that they did not want to be part of Alija Izetbegovic's

6 state and that they wanted to separate, if necessary, from the Muslims?

7 A. I can't remember. I can tell you that I never uttered such words

8 when I attended those meetings. I believe that harsh words were said on

9 both sides, and especially when there was this misunderstanding about the

10 reserve force of the police, as I've already told you.

11 Q. Was it ever asserted in your presence that the Muslims -- that the

12 Serbs did not want to be part of a state led by Alija Izetbegovic and that

13 the Serbs wanted to separate, if necessary? Was it ever asserted in your

14 presence, Mr. Banduka?

15 A. I can't remember.

16 Q. Did you ever hear such similar words expressed prior to the outset

17 of the war by any political leader, whether in Hadzici or elsewhere?

18 A. I can't remember.

19 Q. Let's change the topic. In your testimony, Mr. Banduka, you

20 testified about the arming of the Muslims, and specifically, you said that

21 the Muslims - and I'm referring to pages 26 and 27 of the LiveNote - you

22 said that the Muslims essentially armed themselves by making a forced

23 entry into the Zunovnica complex and stealing weapons, and that's

24 essentially how they armed themselves. Do you remember that testimony?

25 A. I remember, and this was just one of the ways they armed

Page 18843

1 themselves. This is what I said when we were talking about the barracks

2 in Zunovnica.

3 Q. Let's talk about how the Serbs in your municipality armed

4 themselves and how the Serbs in the adjacent municipalities, Ilidza and

5 Ilijas and other municipalities, armed themselves. They armed themselves,

6 did they not, Mr. Banduka, prior to the commencement of the war in

7 Hadzici, through the assistance of the JNA and through your political

8 party, the SDS? Isn't that how they armed themselves?

9 A. I don't know.

10 Q. Are you --

11 A. The SDS did not have any arms at their disposal. How were they

12 supposed to arm anybody? The way you put it is as if we had an arms depot

13 from which we could arm people.

14 Q. Let's take a look at the next exhibit, if we can, Mr. Banduka.

15 MR. HARMON: The document is P51, Your Honour. It's found in tab

16 2.

17 Q. Mr. Banduka, I'm going to ask you to take a look at this document

18 and I'm going to direct your attention to a certain part of the document.

19 Mr. Banduka, this is a document. For your information, it's a

20 military secret. It's identified as a top secret. Its conclusions from

21 March of 1992 on the situation in the 2nd Military District area of

22 responsibility. The author of this document is General Kukanjac. And I'd

23 like to direct your attention, Mr. Banduka, to page 4 of the Bosnian

24 version, sub-part 5. It's at the bottom. It says: "Volunteer units in

25 the area of the 2nd Military District." I'd like you to cast your eye,

Page 18844

1 please, on that section.

2 MR. HARMON: That section, Your Honour, is found at page 5 of the

3 English version, at the bottom of the page.

4 MR. JOSSE: Page 4?

5 MR. HARMON: Page 4 of the B/C/S and page 5 of the English

6 version.

7 Q. And I'd like you to read through sub-part (g), Mr. Banduka, on

8 page 5.

9 Mr. Banduka, this report, which is a top secret from General

10 Kukanjac, relates that there are volunteer units in his district, that

11 they have been formed into companies, detachments and battalions, that

12 they total 69.189 people and if you go to sub-part F of this document, you

13 will see that General Kuk's reports to his higher command that the JNA has

14 distributed 51.900 pieces of weapons, 75 per cent, and the SDS, 17.298

15 pieces.

16 Now, Mr. Banduka, that's what was happening in your municipality,

17 a municipality that had arms depots controlled by the JNA. The SDS was --

18 and the JNA were distributing weapons to Serbs your municipality before

19 the outbreak of the conflict; isn't that correct?

20 A. I don't see our municipality here. I see Kalinovik, Foca,

21 Cajnice, and Gorazde. Where did you find our municipality here? And I

22 can see that 300 rifles were distributed in Sarajevo to retired officers.

23 Q. If we can turn to tab 4, Your Honour. If the witness can be

24 directed to tab 4. This needs a new number, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Tab 4 has no number yet from -- according to your

Page 18845

1 list, at least.

2 MR. HARMON: Yes. It has no number and that's why I'm asking that

3 it be given an exhibit number. I'm sorry. Tab 3, Your Honour. I made a

4 mistake. It's tab 3. Tab 3, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Since by mistake tab 1 was assigned 1001, but had a

6 number already, now tab 4 -- tab 3.

7 MR. HARMON: Tab 3, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Tab -- oh, you said tab 3, yes, is now --

9 THE REGISTRAR: D1001, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

11 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, I direct your attention, Your Honours,

12 for first of all a comparison of this document, because you will see a

13 figure at the end of the column on the right-hand side, 69.198, which

14 matches with the report from General Kukanjac, a figure that he identifies

15 in sub-part B of his report. And you will see at the bottom there's

16 handwriting that is scratched out. And on the English translation, you

17 will, in comparing what has been scratched out, if you make a comparison

18 to sub-part (g) of that report, it's our submission that this is one of

19 the attachments that came from the Kukanjac report. And, Your Honours ...

20 Q. Mr. Banduka, if you take a look at Prosecution Exhibit 1001, under

21 sub-part 9, you will see that the figure of 1.500 men is identified in

22 Prosecution Exhibit 1001. Do you see that figure?

23 A. Where?

24 Q. It is item number 9, on the left-hand side. You'll see Hadzici is

25 identified and you'll see the figure of 1.500. Does that refresh your

Page 18846

1 recollection, Mr. Banduka, about Serbs in your municipality who were

2 provided weapons by the JNA and by the SDS?

3 A. I've never seen Mr. Kukanjac in my life. I've never met him. I

4 have not had an opportunity to do that. And I don't know what this is,

5 what this figure tells you. 1.500 people. I don't understand. What is

6 the essence of this? I don't see it in this document, that is. I can see

7 municipality people, I can see ordinal number and Hadzici and the number

8 of people, 1.500.

9 Q. Where did the Serbs get their weapons before the war? Where did

10 the Serb people in your municipality get their weapons?

11 A. First through the reserve police. Whoever went to the reserve

12 police got weapons. Whoever was a reservist of the JNA got weapons.

13 Whoever was a member of the Territorial Defence got weapons.

14 Q. The Territorial Defence weapons were ordered to be turned in to

15 the JNA by an earlier order issued at the republic level; isn't that

16 correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So if the Territorial Defence weapons were turned in to the JNA,

19 does that mean that the JNA was supplying weapons to Serbs who were in the

20 Territorial Defence before the war?

21 A. Well, if a person was in the Territorial Defence, then he'd have

22 to get a weapon.

23 Q. Again, listen to my question, Mr. Banduka. The Territorial

24 Defence members had to turn in their weapons pursuant to an order that was

25 issued at the republic level; that's correct, isn't it?

Page 18847

1 A. Probably.

2 Q. You don't know about that? When you say "probably," you seem to

3 hesitate. You don't know about that?

4 A. Well, I know that this order did exist about weapons. Now, was it

5 weapons that were issued to individual members or were these surplus

6 weapons? That was all placed under JNA control. I remember that. But

7 these details, I mean, you put a question as if I were in the JNA or in

8 some kind of staff, as if I was supposed to know all these details.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Banduka, if there's something you don't know, you

10 just tell us. Okay? And even although Mr. Harmon is entitled to verify

11 your answer on whether you really didn't know, then everyone will accept

12 lack of knowledge as your testimony.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

14 MR. HARMON: Could we turn to tab 4 --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do that, Mr. Harmon, could the Chamber be

16 informed -- I'm a bit puzzled about 1001. It seems that these are two

17 lists which very much look like the same, although with different ERN

18 numbers, but handwriting which is not exactly the same. If I look at the

19 25 at the top, that's a bit different. The typed-out portions seem to be

20 the same. Part of the handwriting in the first -- at the bottom has

21 disappeared. We get a translation of it, which seems to reflect only one

22 of the documents, but I'm not -- yes, because on both of them is

23 handwriting at the bottom, but one of the translations doesn't say

24 anything about the entry. So I wonder first of all where it comes from,

25 and second, why we have the two very much similar copies in front of us.

Page 18848

1 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, the first copy you have, with no

2 translation, it simply wasn't translated, and so perhaps there's a copy

3 that is in your set that is inserted erroneously.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, we have two translations. I see.

5 Let's just -- let's just go through this tab, then. Tab 3 we're talking

6 about. On the bottom of the first page it says "1 of 5," and the second

7 says "2 of 5," and no handwriting at the bottom of the document is

8 translated.

9 Then I come to 3 of 5, English translation has all the same ERN

10 number. Then we come to 4 of 5, which translates a stricken-out

11 handwriting at the bottom. Then 5 of 5 is empty. And then the two

12 originals are not exactly the same, but both of them have handwriting at

13 the bottom, one, the second one, more complete, because the copy seems to

14 be covering also a tiny little bit at the right-hand side. And I noticed

15 that the handwritten 25 at the top is not exactly the same on the second

16 original as it is on the first one.

17 So quite a lot of puzzles. I'm not asking you to immediately

18 resolve them, but could you please inform us after the next break.

19 MR. HARMON: I will, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And the, of course, the next question was: Where do

21 they come from? What is it?

22 MR. HARMON: They come from the Sarajevo collection, the 2nd Army

23 District offices. That's where they come from. I've just been handed a

24 note informing me of that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I take it, then, that it's especially on

Page 18849

1 the basis of the numerical similarity of this 69.198 and the number

2 mentioned in the Kukanjac report.

3 MR. HARMON: And the text at the bottom relates --

4 JUDGE ORIE: To the 300 Sarajevo.

5 MR. HARMON: -- to (g), and Your Honour, and you'll see in the

6 last page of the English, page 11, you'll see there were a number of

7 enclosures.


9 MR. HARMON: So it's our submission, Your Honour, that this is one

10 of the enclosures.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have not looked at page 11 yet. To be quite

12 honest, it stops at -- no, no. It stops at 10, as far as I'm concerned.

13 But attachments on page 10 says 1, 2, and, number 3, text and map. So the

14 position -- we have to understand this to be that this list is one of the

15 attachments to the report?

16 MR. HARMON: That's correct.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.

18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Excuse me. The numbers we have

19 before each town or each city, in the translated version of the text, do

20 not correspond to the original, apparently. What does it mean? Was there

21 an error in the translation? 58, for example, Celinac, in the translation

22 it's 57, and so on and so forth.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be that there are two 12s on one of the

24 lists, Mr. Harmon.

25 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, let me try and resolve the various

Page 18850

1 mysteries associated with this document.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps in the second translation you find on the

3 12th Kalinovik and Konjic, and both originals we have only one 12, so I

4 take it that the mistake starts there. Yes. Okay. That's -- well, to

5 some extent we have, it seems, that we have understood already where the

6 mistakes are made.

7 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Is this the document that is the

8 basis of the military secret conclusions you introduced earlier on?

9 MR. HARMON: The document that supports the conclusions that I've

10 advanced are found in the text of Prosecution Exhibit 51, and sub-part,

11 and 5 of the document.

12 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.


14 Q. Mr. Banduka, let me show you the next exhibit, which is

15 Prosecution Exhibit number 4 -- tab 4, I should say, and it needs a new

16 number.

17 MR. HARMON: Could I get a number, please?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 4 would be P1002, Your Honours.


20 Q. Mr. Banduka, P1002 is a handwritten document dated the 4th of

21 November -- April the 4th -- April the 11th, 1992. It has a list of

22 people, and at the upper left-hand side it says "advisory organ of the

23 Hadzici Serb Municipal Assembly." It lists your name as number 12, and

24 number 19 it has a man by the name of T. Glavas. Does that list that is

25 before you accurately represent the members of the advisory organ of the

Page 18851

1 Hadzici Municipal Assembly?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. If you turn to the last page of the B/C/S -- I'm sorry, the page

4 that has Y0045809 at the top, you will see your name.

5 MR. HARMON: The reference I'm going to be referring Your Honours

6 to is at the bottom of page 2 of the English version.

7 Q. Mr. Banduka, according to this document, on the 11th of April,

8 1992, you say, and I quote: "The Serbian TO is already being organised

9 into military units and there is cooperation with the units." And then

10 it's illegible. Do you see that?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, before we continue, I'd like you to be

12 very precise in putting these questions to the witness. This witness is

13 called in accordance with his evidence Vidomir Banduka; is that correct?

14 On the list of those who attend, I see a Veljko Banduka, under 2, and I

15 see a Vido Banduka under 12.

16 MR. HARMON: Correct, Your Honour. I acknowledge there is an

17 error on my part. You're correct. So let me ask the question

18 differently, then.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but please be very precise on these kind of

20 matters, because it would be unfair both to the accused and to the witness

21 to put the question the way you did.

22 MR. HARMON: I agree, Your Honour, and I apologise for that.

23 Q. Mr. Veljko Banduka asserts in this document that the Serbian TO is

24 already being organised into military units and there is cooperation with

25 the units. What can you tell us about the Serbian TO being organised into

Page 18852

1 military units on April the 11th, 1992?

2 A. Well, what Mr. Veljko Banduka says - that's a completely different

3 person - but let me explain this. My name is Vidomir Banduka. A lot of

4 people called me Vido. So some place it says Vido and some places it says

5 Vidomir because a lot of people called me Vido. Veljko Banduka was a

6 reserve officer, or rather, a reserve -- a JNA reservist, rather, as

7 people said before the war. And, as I've already said, at the meeting of

8 the 11th of April, when we passed a decision to constitute the Assembly,

9 let me not repeat myself, but we also passed a decision to establish the

10 Serb Territorial Defence.

11 Now, what Veljko Banduka meant by this, that there were already

12 organised Serb TO units, I cannot say. I have no comment.

13 Q. Let's continue, then, Mr. Banduka, about the issue of the arming

14 of the Serbian people in your municipality and in adjacent municipalities.

15 MR. HARMON: If we could turn to the next document, Your Honour,

16 which is found at tab 5. This is already an exhibit. It is Nilsson tab 4

17 and also Prosecution 825, tab 5.

18 Q. Mr. Banduka, this is a document that is dated the 20th of

19 September, 1993. It is addressed to the Republika Srpska Ministry of

20 Internal Affairs. It is from the Serbian public security station in

21 Ilidza. Its author is Tihomir Glavas, who was, if I'm not mistaken,

22 Mr. Banduka, the same Mr. Glavas who was on the advisory committee to the

23 Hadzici Municipal Assembly. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. If you -- I'd like to direct your attention, Mr. Banduka, to the

Page 18853

1 B/C/S version. If you would turn to page 2 of the B/C/S version, the

2 second complete paragraph, starting at Pocetkom 1991.

3 MR. HARMON: And, Your Honours, I'm referring Your Honours to the

4 bottom of the English version, page 2, the first paragraph.

5 Q. And this document, Mr. Banduka, read, if you would, please, the

6 paragraph yourself dealing with Pocetkom 1991 and the ensuing paragraph,

7 Dana 05/03/1992, please.

8 Mr. Banduka, this document, from Mr. Glavas, says that at the

9 beginning of 1991, there was a realisation of war as an option for the

10 realisation of national interest, and in order to prepare, there was

11 intense activity undertaken to arm the citizens of Serb nationality and

12 that arms were transported from a variety of locations, including Hadzici,

13 including JNA barracks, and it also, in the next paragraph, refers to a

14 MUP storage in -- it says Dugi, in Potok, which is incorrect, it should

15 say Donje Potok, which was blocked, and the arms and ammunition were

16 distributed to the Serbian people.

17 Does that refresh your recollection about how the Serb people

18 received their arms in your municipality prior to the commencement of the

19 war?

20 A. Well, you see, now you call this a report, don't you, or some kind

21 of information, that was written by a policeman. I'm not a policeman. I

22 did not deal with such things, and I'm not going into that, what the

23 police says and what they did. I did not have much occasion to receive

24 information about what the police does.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Banduka, you were asked whether, having read this

Page 18854

1 portion, whether it refreshes your memory. That means that after having

2 read it, that something comes into your mind that was not in your mind

3 before. At this moment, no one asked you to comment on knowledge on

4 police reports. Having read this, does this change anything from what you

5 said before?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.


9 Q. Mr. Banduka, staying with that same document, I'd like to direct

10 your attention to page 6 of the B/C/S version of the document. If you'd

11 direct your attention there.

12 MR. HARMON: And, Your Honours, the English version it is page 4.

13 Q. You'll see, Mr. Banduka, a series of names, and Tomislav Kovac.

14 If you'd read very briefly Mr. Kovac's summary. If you'd read the summary

15 in"Sreto Samrdzija," number 8, and if you'd read the summary in Radoslav

16 Tomic, number 11.

17 Do you see those names in the document?

18 MR. HARMON: Perhaps the usher could assist the witness in

19 locating those names. Again, page 6 of the B/C/S version has Mr. Kovac,

20 page 7 has Sreto whose name I cannot pronounce properly, and page 8 was

21 Radoslav Tomic.

22 Q. Do you know Tomislav Kovac?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. He became the minister of the interior of Republika Srpska?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, you invited the witness to read the

Page 18855

1 summaries 1, 8, and 11.

2 MR. HARMON: Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'd very much like you first to verify whether the

4 witness had the opportunity to read them.

5 MR. HARMON: Yes. I'll be glad to.

6 Q. Have you read items 1, 8, and 11?

7 A. 1, 8 -- I've read about Tomislav Kovac, but I don't know these

8 other people. Tomislav Kovac is the only one I knew out of all of them.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You're first of all invited to read them. So would

10 you also read the summary of Sreto Samrdzija and then Tomic, Radoslav.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've read it.


13 Q. The summaries in respect of each of these gentlemen refers to

14 their work of arming the Serbian people. Does -- you said you knew

15 Mr. Kovac. Did you have contact with him in 1992?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Is there anything in these summaries that assists you in recalling

18 the arming of Serbian people in 1992 in the Hadzici municipality?

19 A. Tomislav Kovac did not live in the municipality of Hadzici, and

20 these two other persons are not from Hadzici. So I don't see how anything

21 can assist me in recalling anybody. I just knew Tomislav Kovac from

22 before the war, when we were both students.

23 Q. Okay.

24 MR. HARMON: I think we've concluded with that topic, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE ORIE: But I'd like to add to that, Mr. Banduka, that even

Page 18856

1 if someone is not living in the area, he might write down observations

2 which might assist you in refreshing your memory. So therefore, I'd

3 rather hear whether it does or not, and whether it could have done.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

5 MR. HARMON: Let's change -- I'm finished with that document,

6 thank you.

7 Q. Let's change the topic and talk about your testimony that the war

8 in Hadzici started on the 11th of May, 1992. That testimony is found in

9 the LiveNote at page 43. That's where it starts, Your Honours.

10 Let's be perfectly clear, Mr. Banduka. The war in Bosnia had

11 already started before the 11th of May, 1992, isn't that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. On the 31st of March, 1992, in Bijeljina, Arkan had gone into

14 Bijeljina and had forcibly removed Muslims from that municipality. Were

15 you aware of that?

16 A. Well, Bijeljina is 200 kilometres away from the place where I

17 lived. I don't know about that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Banduka, again, the question was whether you were

19 aware of that. I sometimes am aware of something that happens at a

20 distance of 200 kilometres. So would you please answer the questions and

21 the logic -- if we need further information for that, I'm certain that

22 Mr. Harmon will ask you for it.


24 Q. Were you aware, Mr. Banduka, on the 8th of April, Arkan attacked

25 Zvornik and the Muslims were forcibly removed from Zvornik?

Page 18857

1 A. To the extent to which I could see this on television, that is the

2 degree of my knowledge.

3 Q. Were you aware that in April, early April, a war had started in

4 Sarajevo?

5 A. The last time I was in Sarajevo was on 25 April.

6 Q. I didn't ask you when the last time you were in Sarajevo. I asked

7 you whether you were aware that a war had started in Sarajevo in April of

8 1992.

9 A. I was aware of conflicts. I don't know what you mean when you

10 say "war."

11 Q. Were you aware that members of the Hadzici police department,

12 public security station, were fighting in Ilijas in April of 1992?

13 A. I'm not aware of that.

14 Q. Were you aware, Mr. Banduka, that Muslims were being forced to

15 move out of Ilidza, the municipality that you say was 20 kilometres away

16 from you?

17 A. On the 24th of April, Muslims attacked Ilidza and some Serbs got

18 killed. I don't know whether they were forcibly moved or not. Ilidza was

19 divided in the same way Hadzici was divided.

20 Q. If we could go back to the document that is found at tab 5,

21 Your Honours, the Prosecution Exhibit 825, tab 5.

22 Mr. Banduka, I'd like to direct your attention, Mr. Banduka, to

23 portions of Mr. Glavas's document dealing first of all in the B/C/S the

24 first paragraph at the top of page 3.

25 MR. HARMON: And Your Honours, I'm referring to page 2, the

Page 18858

1 penultimate paragraph on page 2.

2 Q. I'd like you to read that paragraph, Mr. Banduka, that I referred

3 to.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. This paragraph says: "Repressive measures undertaken against

6 them," referring to detained Muslims, "for various reasons resulted in

7 them increasingly fleeing and moving out of this municipality."

8 What kind of repressive measures are you aware of that were

9 applied to the Muslims in the municipality adjacent to you?

10 A. This was a different municipality. How should I know what was

11 going on there?

12 Q. Well, let's take a look, then, at the paragraph --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, just if you would allow me one comment.

14 MR. HARMON: Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: You're referring to a paragraph in which "detained

16 Muslims" are mentioned. We heard quite some evidence of this witness this

17 morning on prisons and detentions, where it remained rather unclear what

18 the detention was for. And therefore I invite you, and it's an invitation

19 to Mr. Josse as well, that whenever we are talking about detention

20 situations, that we'd clearly distinguish between prisoners of war being

21 detained, the population of the detained persons, whether any women or

22 children were included. Because otherwise it's -- it would come down to a

23 lot of guessing whether it's Prosecution questions or Defence questions,

24 it's exactly the same, to properly assess the importance of such evidence,

25 we should know what type of detention, what detained population we're

Page 18859

1 talking about, not only ethnicity, although ethnicity, of course, might be

2 of vital importance. Please proceed.

3 MR. HARMON: Yes, thank you. I didn't explore that further,

4 Your Honour. This is from the municipality of Ilidza and the witness

5 professes to know nothing of what was going on in the municipality of

6 Ilidza.

7 Q. Mr. Banduka, let me refer you to page 4 of that very same document

8 in B/C/S, the third paragraph from the bottom.

9 MR. HARMON: And Your Honours, reference is on page 3, the

10 paragraph in the middle of the page in English that starts with the

11 words "general attack on all defence lines."

12 Q. Now, read that to yourself and tell me when you've finished

13 reading that, Mr. Banduka.

14 A. I've done it.

15 Q. Have you finished? You asked me how you should know --

16 A. You wanted me to read just this?

17 Q. Yes. Now, you asked me a minute ago how you should be aware of

18 anything that was happening in Hadzici, and this document from Mr. Glavas

19 reports that members of the Hadzici police public security station were

20 fighting in Ilidza on April 22nd. Did you have any contacts with those

21 members of the police station who had gone into combat in the municipality

22 adjacent to you? And if so, did they tell you what was happening in the

23 municipality of Ilidza?

24 A. No. On that day I was in my village, and we were sowing potato on

25 that day.

Page 18860

1 Q. Okay. Let's go to the fighting that was taking place in Sarajevo.

2 Let's, in fact, turn to the next exhibit, which is tab 6.

3 MR. HARMON: It needs a report -- it needs an exhibit number,

4 please.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 6 would be P1003, Your Honours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


9 Q. Mr. Banduka, this is a document that is relatively short. If you

10 would cast your eye on this, this is a document that's dated the 4th of

11 May, 1992. It is a daily report from the minister of the interior of the

12 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and it is signed by Mico

13 Stanisic, who is the minister of the interior.

14 This is a document that describes fighting that was going on in

15 the municipality of Sarajevo, Mr. Banduka. It talks about attacks in

16 Ilidza. In the second paragraph it talks about fierce fighting is in

17 progress in Vogosca. The third paragraph, heavy fighting is in progress

18 in Ilijas. In the next paragraph, it says: "The Serbian forces managed

19 to liberate parts of the Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo."

20 Two paragraphs down it talks about the Serbian forces successfully

21 advancing in fighting in downtown Sarajevo.

22 In fact, this fairly accurately reports information, Mr. Banduka,

23 that Sarajevo, all around you, all around your municipality, was the

24 subject of heavy fighting; correct?

25 MR. JOSSE: Correct that the report says that or correct that that

Page 18861

1 is true?


3 Q. Is that true, Mr. Banduka?

4 A. Whose question am I supposed to answer now?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon asked you whether it is true that

6 Sarajevo, all around you, all around your municipality, was the subject of

7 heavy fighting.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.


10 Q. If we could turn to the next exhibit, which is tab number 7. It

11 has already an exhibit number. It's P825, tab 2.

12 Again, this document -- I'd like to show you this document because

13 it refers to fighting that's taking place in Sarajevo, again based on a

14 report of the minister of the interior, Mico Stanisic. It's dated the 8th

15 of May. Obviously, Mr. Stanisic is preparing reports based on information

16 that he's receiving from the field. And in the second paragraph it talks

17 about "the Serb forces are mopping up Dobrinja neighbourhood, liberating

18 it, and placing this particular part of town under their control."

19 It talks about, on the paragraph -- two paragraphs down,

20 Mr. Banduka, "The Serbian forces have maintained firm control of the

21 positions captured all around town."

22 And in the penultimate paragraph: "The Serbian forces are in full

23 control of the Serbian municipality of Ilidza."

24 Now, Mr. Banduka, the reason I bring these facts to your attention

25 and ask you if you can verify those is because of your evidence that you

Page 18862

1 gave last week that the Muslims from Hadzici left Hadzici as part of a

2 plan. Part of the plan was to evacuate Hadzici before an attack started.

3 And I want to put to you this question: Mr. Banduka, there was a war

4 going on that was all around the Muslims before the 11th of May, 1992;

5 isn't that correct?

6 A. No. That was not a true war. In my view, the way I see war, this

7 was not a war. You're talking about Dobrinja here. Dobrinja was in the

8 hands of Muslims throughout the war. Only two blocks were in the hands of

9 Serbs. You're talking -- actually, he is talking about some other

10 conquest here. I won't go into that. You keep asking me things that I

11 don't know anything about. I lived in Hadzici. On the 8th of May, as

12 I've already told you, I was in my house.

13 Q. Okay. Well --

14 A. There were conflicts, there were clashes, absolutely, in the

15 territory of Sarajevo, as is stated here and as you assert. On the 22nd

16 of April, Ilidza was attacked. Maybe that is what is referred to here.

17 Sarajevo is a huge town, with 500.000 inhabitants. How am I supposed to

18 know what is happening in every corner of that big town? Everybody knew

19 that there were clashes and conflicts.

20 Q. Well, I want to focus on your opinion, Mr. Banduka, that the

21 reason the Muslims left Hadzici was because there was a plan for them to

22 leave, and after they successfully evacuated Hadzici, Hadzici was

23 attacked. What can you tell us, Mr. Banduka, about an ultimatum that was

24 issued by the SDS to Muslim representatives on the 7th of May to leave the

25 municipality?

Page 18863

1 A. I don't know anything about this ultimatum, and I have repeated so

2 many times already. On the 6th and 7th of May I was in my house. It was

3 St. George's Day, which is my name day, and I had a party. And how can

4 somebody who is not as strong in numbers issue an ultimatum to a more

5 numerous party? Can I explain that, please [as interpreted]?

6 Q. No. Let me ask the questions and if you feel it necessary,

7 Mr. Josse, he will ask you some questions about that.

8 In fact, Mr. Banduka, on the 9th of May, 1992, there were already

9 clashes in the city of Hadzici; isn't that correct?

10 A. Yes, minor clashes.

11 Q. I'd like to direct -- I'd like to turn to tab 9, Your Honours. If

12 I could turn to tab 9.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but before doing so, Mr. Harmon, one of the

14 answers of the witness was not entirely clear.

15 You were asked, Mr. Banduka, about an ultimatum issued by the SDS

16 to Muslim representatives on the 7th of May to leave the municipality.

17 Then you said: "I don't know anything about this ultimatum." And then

18 two lines later you said: "And how can somebody who is not as strong in

19 numbers issue an ultimatum to a more numerous party? Can I explain that,

20 please," says the translation. Would you like to explain that, or is it a

21 mistranslation, and were you asking for someone else to explain it to you?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I wanted somebody else to

23 explain this to me, and it is only my logic which tells me that it doesn't

24 make sense for somebody who is weaker to issue an ultimatum to somebody

25 who is stronger.

Page 18864

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Again, as I said, if logic is really a point,

2 then you'll be specifically asked about it, but here it seems to be a

3 translation issue.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

5 MR. HARMON: I'm turning to tab 8, Your Honours, please. If I

6 could get a number for tab 8.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 8, Your Honours, will be P1004.


10 Q. Mr. Banduka, again, I'd like to direct -- this is a document again

11 from Mico Stanisic, and it is dated the 9th of May, 1992. It's an

12 overview of the daily events. And I'd like to direct your attention,

13 Mr. Banduka, to the second paragraph and the third paragraph in the B/C/S.

14 MR. HARMON: And, Your Honours, since -- I'd like to direct

15 Your Honours' attention to the second, essentially, bullet point on page

16 1, and the third bullet point at the bottom, that carries over to page 2.

17 Q. Now, Mr. Banduka, the second -- the first paragraph that I

18 directed you to describes ferocious fighting in the Serb municipality of

19 Ilijas, and the third paragraph describes the fighting that took place in

20 Hadzici, in which the attack is described as ferocious, and it describes

21 no losses from the Serb side but significant losses on the Muslim side.

22 Now, Mr. Banduka, this report of these activities is on the 9th of

23 May. You weren't in Hadzici on the 9th of May. You've told us that you

24 were in your house. Did you hear the shooting that was taking place in

25 Hadzici on the 9th of May?

Page 18865

1 A. No. I was in my village, yes.

2 Q. Did you hear the shooting that was taking place on the 9th of May

3 in Hadzici?

4 A. There was frequent shooting at the time.

5 Q. Well, there was also an ongoing battle in Hadzici on the 9th, the

6 10th, and the 11th of May, wasn't there?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Let's take a look at the next exhibit, which is tab 9.

9 MR. HARMON: That also needs a number.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

11 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1005, Your Honours.


13 Q. And Mr. Banduka, let me direct your attention in tab 9 to the

14 second paragraph, the second marked paragraph.

15 MR. HARMON: And, Your Honours, I'm referring to the second

16 paragraph on page 1.

17 Q. Cast an eye on that and read that, please. This is another report

18 on the daily events from the Ministry of the Interior, from Mr. Stanisic,

19 and it describes, Mr. Banduka, heavy fighting that has taken place for the

20 past two days in the Hadzici area, which is referring to the two days

21 before the date of this report. And it describes the situation in

22 Hadzici, "very difficult."

23 Now, again, there was heavy fighting, according to Mr. Stanisic's

24 report, that was going on in the Hadzici area at that time. Were you

25 aware of that?

Page 18866

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And let's take a look at the next exhibit, then. Actually, how

3 were you aware of that, Mr. Banduka? How was it you were aware of that?

4 A. I don't understand your question.

5 Q. I asked you a minute ago whether you were aware there was heavy

6 fighting in Hadzici area, and you said you were aware of that. And my

7 question next to you was: How were you aware of that, Mr. Banduka? By

8 hearing it? By seeing it?

9 A. I saw it, I heard it. Hadzici is a small area. On the 11th of

10 May, I found myself at a plateau above Hadzici, some three kilometres from

11 the centre, and from there I could see all these elevations points, for

12 example, Tinovo Brdo. I could see it with my naked eye. I could hear

13 shooting. And there was shooting coming from all directions, from all

14 sides.

15 Q. I'm not asking you about the 11th of May, Mr. Banduka. I'm asking

16 you about the 9th of May, the 10th of May. Were you aware that there was

17 heavy fighting in Hadzici, in the Hadzici area. At the point in time you

18 described you observed Muslim people fleeing from Hadzici. Were you aware

19 that there was heavy fighting going on in Hadzici and in the area of

20 Hadzici?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, there seems to be some confusion. First,

22 the witness was asked, and I think we are talking about a couple of days

23 before the 10th, what he noticed of any ongoing fighting. Then you

24 confronted the witness with this tab 9, I think it is. Is that correct?

25 Let me just check.

Page 18867

1 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I've confronted him with tab 8, which

2 describes heavy fighting on the 9th of May; tab 9, which is dated the

3 12th, describes heavy fighting for the two days before the 12th, which

4 would be the 10th, the 11th, and the 12th.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I'm just checking on whether the report of the 12th,

6 going on for the two past days, so that would include either the 10th and

7 the 11th or the 11th and the 12th.

8 MR. HARMON: Either one, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But you said: "I'm not asking you about the

10 11th of May, Mr. Banduka. I'm asking you about the 9th of May, the 10th

11 of May." So that's not entirely clear, in view of the 12th of May, which

12 might well include the 11th as well.

13 MR. HARMON: Yes, it could, but I'm asking him about the 9th and

14 the 10th of May and ...

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.

16 So the questions from what you saw are now specifically about the

17 9th and the 10th, Mr. Banduka.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 9th and 10th I was at home,

19 and as for the fierce fighting on the 9th and 10th, I learnt about that on

20 the 11th. But we could hear shots all the way to my village. On those

21 days, I was in my house, which means I was not where all this fighting was

22 going on. On the 11th of May, there were fierce attacks from all sides. I

23 met with a lot of people and I learnt what had happened on the two or

24 three previous days.


Page 18868

1 Q. I understood your earlier testimony, Mr. Banduka, that you went

2 out of your house and you met and spoke with the people who were fleeing

3 from Hadzici. Is that correct? You weren't exclusively in your house;

4 you were out of your house for parts of the day, speaking with the people

5 who were fleeing. Did I understand your testimony correctly?

6 A. Yes. Yes.

7 Q. During the time you were out of your house, did you hear combat

8 operations, combat taking place? Did you hear gunshots fired?

9 A. Again, your question is not clear to me. You are referring to my

10 house as some hermetically closed area. Whether I was in the house or in

11 front of the house, I was in my house on the 6th, on the 7th, and on the

12 8th, which means I was either in the house or around the house. Since

13 there is a road very close to my house on the 7th, 8th, and 9th I saw the

14 columns of people passing through. This was before the real conflict

15 started. Maybe I expressed myself wrongly when I said that the war

16 started on the 11th. This is the date that we consider the beginning of a

17 fully blown conflict. The days that preceded the 11th, I believe that on

18 those days there were skirmishes, incidents, shooting. Nobody got killed.

19 And that is what prompted me and others to say that the 11th can be

20 considered the real beginning of the war.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau has a question for you, Mr. Banduka.

22 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Banduka, I am a judge. In

23 these last few days I've listened to you, and I thought I'd understood you

24 to say the following: I saw Muslims leaving the town. And you specified

25 that you took this movement of population to be some kind of prior phase

Page 18869

1 before an attack that was about to be launched against the municipality.

2 In fact, part of the population that belonged to a specific group, to the

3 Muslims, left the municipality, and thereafter, they went back, or they

4 turned against the municipality to attack it. This is what I understood

5 you to say yesterday or the day before yesterday, or maybe three days ago.

6 So was this the way you saw the events? Because now, as I listen

7 to you, I have the feeling that this departure of some population could be

8 interpreted differently. It was not a ruse, it was not a trick. They

9 were possibly leaving the town, now, listening to you, because there was

10 heavy fighting. I have a feeling that you gave us a version of events

11 that was somewhat simplified, given the complexity of the situation as it

12 now appears. I mean, you're here to tell us. You are before Judges. You

13 are supposed to be here to tell us what exactly happened then.

14 Now, do you want to go back on what you said and try to tell us

15 what you really saw, what you heard, what you knew then? Please.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I adhere to my previous statement.

17 On the 11th of May was the beginning of a general attack on Hadzici, and

18 I've already told you that I am also an inhabitant of Hadzici. I was at

19 home, and there was no shooting around my house. The neighbouring village

20 is a Muslim village. In order to get to the centre of Hadzici, I have to

21 pass through a large Muslim village. And the roads were still passable.

22 On the 10th or the 9th of May - I'm not sure - my wife, with my

23 child, went to my sister's place, and my sister lived in Ilidza. And on

24 the 11th I learnt that there had been shooting in Hadzici, as described in

25 this document, and that there were skirmishes between the members of the

Page 18870

1 two police forces.

2 The police station that housed the Muslim police was at the far

3 end of the town, at the exit from Hadzici, leading towards Konjic and

4 Mostar. Maybe you didn't understand me properly. Maybe. When I say that

5 on the 11th of May the war started, I say this because the conflict was

6 much larger and it spread to an area that reached some 10 or 12 kilometres

7 out of the area that had already been controlled by Muslims. And let me

8 say one more thing. The Serbian population that resided in Tarcin and

9 Pazarici, that is, the parts that the Muslims controlled throughout the

10 war, remained in those areas. About 3.000 people remained in those two

11 neighbourhoods. Most of the Muslims that came under the attack on the

12 9th, 10th, and 11th of May, and a separation line was built through that

13 area, most of the Muslims left that area, and this is where I have drawn

14 my conclusions from, the one that I shared with you.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to ask one additional question. The SJB

16 Hadzici, where was that located, the Serb SJB Hadzici?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the exit from the centre of

18 Hadzici, the residential area stopped; then there was this police station;

19 and this is the road leading from Hadzici towards Konjic and Mostar,

20 towards the area that was under the Muslim control from then onwards. In

21 1993, this was beyond our lines, the lines where the Serbs had put up

22 their defence lines.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Was that within hearing distance from where you

24 lived, loud noises?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean where I resided at the

Page 18871

1 time?


3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The distance is about 5 kilometres

4 from my house and my village, i.e., my house is in a valley, close to a

5 river. It was rather well sheltered. But you could hear the shots. But

6 there was daily shooting. People fired shots for celebrations, for

7 weddings. Fired shots were not something unusual. Even during the times

8 of peace there was frequent shooting, let alone when the conflict started.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, one of these reports says that "early this

10 morning," and the report dates from the 9th of May, about 0115 hours, "the

11 Serb SJB Hadzici has been attacked by the members of the Muslim

12 paramilitary formations. The attack was ferocious and it was led from all

13 directions toward the station. The members of the Serb SJB Hadzici

14 efficiently responded to the attack while there were no losses in

15 manpower. On the side of the Muslims there were significant losses,

16 several lightly and severely wounded members."

17 Now, this happens in the middle of the night. The way it was

18 described could hardly create any confusion as to whether it was a wedding

19 where a few shots were fired. Did you notice any of this kind which, in

20 the middle of the night, could not be easily, I take it, mistaken from as

21 it is described, "a ferocious attack was led from all directions"?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What this gentleman describes here,

23 I believe this is just to boost other people's morale. It says here that

24 the Serbian police station came under attack. When you asked me where the

25 public security station was, I told you --

Page 18872

1 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand you believe that this is just to

2 boost other people's morale, which I understand to be that it's not true

3 what he writes, is it?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have no comment. The first time I

5 came to the centre of Hadzici - I don't know when it was - between these

6 two police stations that came into conflict, there was a van which served

7 as a barricade. It was shot through. And there were stories saying that

8 the members of the Muslim police had shot at it. This is what I remember.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You would say -- of course you give now a different

10 version of the events, at least something you heard of, and that,

11 therefore, the report, you believe, is just to boost other people's

12 morale?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it says here that the Serb side

14 did not suffer any losses and that there were heavy losses on the Muslim

15 side, I don't know how this could be established. I believe that this is

16 an improvisation and this is what I meant when I said that this was to

17 boost the morale of other people.

18 JUDGE ORIE: The subject of my question was not whether the losses

19 were correctly reflected. It was mainly focussing on a -- what is

20 described as a "ferocious attack from all directions in the middle of the

21 night." And I'm just wondering whether that remained unnoticed to you, if

22 true, of course.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't observe this. It

24 couldn't be heard during the night where I lived. But, according to my

25 subsequent information and according to the stories I heard later on,

Page 18873

1 these were just skirmishes, an occasional shot fired between the two

2 police stations, which were some 200 metres away from each other. This

3 was not a fully blown conflict, in other words.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harmon. Anyway, I'm looking at

5 the clock. Perhaps it would be a better idea to have the break now and to

6 resume at 1.00.

7 MR. HARMON: Fine.

8 --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 1.05.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, please proceed.

11 MR. HARMON: Sorry, Your Honour. The earphones broke that I was

12 about to use.

13 Q. Mr. Banduka, I want to focus your attention on the 11th of May,

14 1992, when you went up to the top of the hill and when you looked in

15 toward the direction of Hadzici, you said that you saw and heard artillery

16 fire, or fire coming from positions that were held by the Muslims, the

17 positions that were beyond Tinovo Hill. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Did you see or hear any fire coming from positions that --

20 artillery fire coming from positions that were held by the Serbs,

21 artillery fire that was directed toward the centre of Hadzici?

22 A. No.

23 MR. HARMON: Could we turn to the exhibit that is found at tab 10.

24 Could I have a number for that, please.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.

Page 18874

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1006, Your Honours.

2 MR. HARMON: I direct Your Honours' attention to the first

3 paragraph in tab 10.

4 Q. And Mr. Banduka, I direct your attention in the B/C/S to the first

5 paragraph in that B/C/S document. This is a document again from

6 Minister Stanisic from the Ministry of Interior. It is dated the 11th of

7 May, 1992. Mr. Banduka, tell me when you've finished reviewing that,

8 please.

9 A. I've finished.

10 Q. Mr. Banduka, this report, dated the 11th of May, 1992, says that

11 "the Serb forces returned fire on the attacking forces, destroying also

12 with shells the former joint station of the public security in Hadzici,

13 which at the time was held by members of the BH Territorial Defence, the

14 former BH Territorial Defence."

15 Does this report assist you in recalling more clearly the sources

16 of the artillery fire that you observed or saw from the top of the hill

17 where you were looking into Hadzici?

18 A. What is referred to here is probably night-time, 0025. I talked

19 about the hill above Hadzici that I reached during the course of the day.

20 Q. My question is -- this refers to -- at least at the beginning, an

21 attack that started at 0025 hours. My question is: Does this assist you

22 in terms of recalling where the artillery fire was coming from, at the

23 time you were looking into Hadzici?

24 A. Well, the gunfire came from above the hill of Tinovo, from the

25 village of Lokve, and also a village that was closer by, and that was

Page 18875

1 Grivici, right next to the technical institute, that was held by the

2 Muslims too. Shells fell right next to me at the time when I was there.

3 Q. Okay. So your answer is that you do not recall any shells coming

4 from Serb-held positions; is that your testimony?

5 A. You mean during the day or during the night?

6 Q. On the 11th of May.

7 A. The 11th of May? Then there was fire coming from Serb positions

8 too.

9 Q. You're talking about artillery fire; is that correct?

10 A. Yes. Mortar fire, for the most part.

11 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm not going to go into the next two

12 exhibits. The next two exhibits are for context, Your Honour. They are

13 found at tabs 11 and 12. Tab 11, which I will offer into evidence, is a

14 contextual document. It's an intercept between the Ilidza police station

15 commander, Petko Budisa, and Colonel Gagovic, from the JNA, from the army,

16 and it refers to targeting information, and also refers to APCs and a

17 Praga anti-aircraft gun being in, as it says, "down there," which it's our

18 submission refers to Hadzici. And I'm going to also refer Your Honours

19 again to a contextual document dated May 12th, a conversation again from

20 Ilidza to Colonel Gagovic, again talking about targeting information.

21 My question, Your Honour, is: Should those be given numbers at

22 this point in time?

23 JUDGE ORIE: If these would be the only ones, the only contextual

24 exhibits, then we would do it, but if you come up with a bundle of

25 contextual exhibits at a later stage, then I think it would be better even

Page 18876

1 to take them out, to return them to you, so that you can use them.

2 Yes, Mr. --

3 MR. JOSSE: I'd much rather the latter was done, Your Honour.

4 MR. HARMON: Yes. I'm satisfied, Your Honour.

5 Q. Very briefly, sir: You mentioned that you were part of a

6 commission which was to investigate crimes committed against Serbs. Why

7 didn't your commission investigate crimes that were committed against

8 Muslims who were members of the Hadzici municipality?

9 A. The commission had a very short life. I already said that before

10 the 25th, or rather, the 26th, we did what we did, but most of the members

11 of the commission, quite simply, moved on to other jobs. There was a lot

12 of fear involved. Many people were afraid. And I know that very often

13 people would avoid going out to the scenes. So the commission did not

14 have meetings and did not really exist.

15 The intention was exceptionally good, but the situation was such

16 that it was impossible for it to continue.

17 Q. In respect of the attack on the village of Musici, can you tell

18 the Chamber what happened to all of the Muslim homes that were in the

19 village of Musici?

20 A. In Musici, I was not there. Later on I had the opportunity to

21 pass by that village, and I know that there were damaged houses, destroyed

22 houses, and that probably happened during the conflict. I think it was

23 around the 20th of May.

24 Q. Did you hear that all of the Muslim homes after the village was

25 taken over were burned intentionally?

Page 18877

1 A. Well, I don't know whether it was really all of them, because if

2 there was fighting around that village, and it is important to mention

3 that the village was right next to Mount Igman; it was on the slopes of

4 Mount Igman, that was held by the Muslims. Well, probably in that

5 fighting around the village, many houses were damaged or destroyed, and I

6 witnessed that myself, yes, later on.

7 Q. In your testimony, sir, you mentioned a battle that took place on

8 the 25th of May, 1992, in the area that was in and around Zunovnica, the

9 Zunovnica conflict, and you said that 25 people had been -- 25 Serbs had

10 been killed in the course of that combat.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Now, the Zunovnica complex was a major complex that was a depot

13 that stored ammunition and ordnance and therefore it was a major target,

14 an appropriate target for the other side. That's correct, isn't it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The battle that was -- that you described was a major military

17 battle that took place in Hadzici, in which not only 125 -- 25 Serb

18 soldiers were killed, but approximately 130 Muslim soldiers were killed in

19 their efforts to take over that complex; correct?

20 A. That figure of 130 Muslim soldiers is something that I'm not aware

21 of.

22 Q. If we could turn --

23 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, I'm going to offer this without

24 confronting the witness with this, the document that's found in tab 13,

25 just to illuminate further the battle that was described by this witness.

Page 18878

1 And if I could have a number for tab 13.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It then becomes more or less a contextual

3 exhibit, doesn't it?

4 MR. HARMON: I'll ask him some questions on it.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then that should be assigned.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1007, Your Honours.


8 Q. If you could turn to tab 13 of the documents that are before you,

9 sir, you will see that this is in large measure a document that describes

10 the attack that took place on the 25th.

11 MR. HARMON: That, Your Honour, description starts in the English

12 on page -- in paragraph 1. It is about the middle of the page, with the

13 paragraph starting "following the situation." And it ends with a

14 description on page 2 of the English, about a third of the way down, where

15 it describes the losses, according to the data that was collected by the

16 Serbs, showing that around 130 men were lost.

17 MR. JOSSE: I'd invite -- I'm sorry. I'd invite the witness to

18 look at all of number 1, if he may, because I've just read the first two

19 paragraphs. They put the rest of the document into context, I'd submit.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The witness is then invited to read on from the

21 beginning.

22 MR. HARMON: And this document, for the record, Your Honour, is a

23 report on the combat readiness of the Serb municipality of Hadzici,

24 delivered to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps operative command, dated the 29th

25 of May, 1992.

Page 18879

1 Q. Mr. Banduka, does this fairly characterise from the headquarters

2 of the TO headquarters the battle that took place on the 25th and the 26th

3 of May that you related to us in your testimony in direct examination?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, would you first ask the witness whether

5 he finished reading.

6 MR. HARMON: I thought he had finished.

7 Q. Have you finished reading the document, Mr. Banduka? If not, I'll

8 give you some additional time to read it.

9 A. Well, I haven't. It's a very long document. It takes time to

10 read it.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then please do it, Mr. Banduka.


13 Q. Mr. Banduka, does this fairly and accurately describe the battle

14 that you testified about on the 25th of May, 1992?

15 A. Well, roughly, it does, but the figures are different. Here it

16 says 15, 20, 9, in respect of the dead, wounded, and missing. I don't

17 think that the figure pertaining to missing persons corresponds to what I

18 said.

19 Q. Other than those small details, does this accurately describe the

20 battle that took place on the 26th?

21 A. Essentially, yes. What I said earlier on. 130 killed Muslim

22 soldiers, well, that's just an assumption. I know that there were some

23 Muslim casualties, a few remained in this territory, but the figure of

24 130, I don't know where that comes from.

25 Q. Okay. Let's turn the topic to something you testified about this

Page 18880

1 morning, and that was the detention of Muslims, or the protection of

2 Muslim civilians at the sports complex. Let me ask you very specifically,

3 Mr. Banduka: Were there detention facilities in the Hadzici municipality,

4 where Muslim civilians were detained against their will?

5 A. Well, we've already talked about the sports centre.

6 Q. And were Muslim civilians held against their will in the sports

7 centre?

8 A. Well, I think that we can say yes, but we've already explained

9 that, that it was for the purposes of protection. Quite simply, even then

10 people didn't believe that something could happen to them, something

11 unexpected. So perhaps it's from that point of view that their will was

12 not complied with.

13 Q. Are you aware that there was a Detention Centre at the garage at

14 the municipal building in Hadzici?

15 A. Yes. I've already said that on the first floor was the police. In

16 the garage was this temporary detention unit. And on the second floor was

17 the Crisis Staff, or the council at the time, and later the Municipal

18 Assembly, because we've already seen that the police station had been

19 completely destroyed.

20 Q. Now, you were aware of the status of Muslim detainees because you

21 were a member of the municipal -- Serb Municipal Assembly of Hadzici, and

22 issues relating to the detention of Muslim civilians was reported in

23 sessions in which you participated; isn't that correct?

24 A. As far as I know, civilians were not detained in that garage, but

25 people who violated the norms of the time, people who had weapons, who

Page 18881

1 were shooting from the centre of town itself at, I don't know, certain

2 facilities.

3 Q. Mr. Banduka, my question wasn't limited to the garage. My

4 question was, and I'll repeat it: You were aware of the status of Muslim

5 detainees because you were a member of the Serb Municipal Assembly in

6 Hadzici and issues relating to the detention of Muslim civilians was

7 reported in sessions in which you participated; is that correct?

8 A. I participated, but that was referred to very little at the

9 sessions of the Crisis Staff. It was a body of a technical, coordinating

10 nature, whereas what you're saying had to do with the police. No orders

11 were issued to the police with regard to that, that is to say, arrests,

12 bringing people into custody, seizing weapons, et cetera. That was done

13 by the police itself.

14 Q. How long did Muslim civilians remain in the sports complex for

15 their own protection? When did they start to be detained and when did

16 they stop being detained?

17 A. Well, I think -- well, I cannot say the exact date, but from the

18 moment the conflict broke out, this tragic event that we've already spoken

19 about -- or rather, not everybody stayed there for the same period of

20 time. How should I put this? There was fluctuation through this building

21 of these masses of people who were brought there; some were brought in,

22 others were taken out. Now, were they exchanged? Some went back to their

23 homes. But for the most part, I think - I'm not quite sure - but I think,

24 say, by the beginning of August there were people in the sports centre.

25 Q. So from May to August people were in the sports centre, according

Page 18882

1 to your recollection?

2 A. There were people. I'm not saying that it's the same people who

3 came on the 15th of May and stayed until the 10th of August. As far as I

4 can remember, it is for that period of time that the centre was in

5 existence, as such.

6 Q. How many people were being kept in the sports complex?

7 A. Well, in conversation with a person who guarded the facility, it

8 was approximately about 170 people who were in the building at a given

9 point in time, but I could not give you the exact figure of the total

10 number of people who went through the building.

11 Q. In mid-June, your testimony this morning was that a group, a

12 certain group, came in and ill-treated the Muslims. What was the name of

13 that group?

14 A. It was a very difficult time. Those things happened,

15 unfortunately. A group came by. It appeared from no --

16 Q. What was the name of the group? Did it have a name, Mr. Banduka?

17 A. No, no. I don't --

18 Q. It wasn't any organised group from any organised structure, either

19 paramilitary or military, or police?

20 A. I don't think so, no. As far as I can remember, and what people

21 told me, they were half civilians, semi-civilians. That's the way I can

22 put it.

23 Q. You testified in respect of that particular incident that "we,"

24 referring to the Crisis Staff, "couldn't issue orders to the police

25 because we had no authority over them." Who did have authority over the

Page 18883

1 police?

2 A. The police.

3 Q. Who had authority over the police, Mr. Banduka? If the Crisis

4 Staff didn't, over the police, who had -- was it the minister of the

5 interior --

6 A. The Ministry of the Interior of the then Serbian Republic of

7 Bosnia and Herzegovina. That's the way it was called.

8 Q. Now, who was responsible for the conditions that were in the

9 sports centre?

10 A. This is a technical question. One could say that it was the

11 Crisis Staff that was responsible, and then when the Assembly was

12 established, the Assembly took over.

13 Q. Wasn't the situation this, Mr. Banduka: Muslim inhabitants of

14 Hadzici were arrested in May, June, September, they were detained there

15 not for their protection, oftentimes they were detained for purposes of

16 use in exchanges, prisoner exchanges? Isn't that the case?

17 A. Again, this was in view of protecting them, if that indeed had

18 been the case.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Banduka, would you please answer the questions.

20 The question was not if there was an exchange, what was the reason for it.

21 The question was, quite simply, is -- whether oftentimes they were

22 detained for purposes of use in exchanges, prisoner exchanges; isn't that

23 the case.

24 I must, while rereading the question, I must admit, Mr. Harmon,

25 that it was not clear to the extent that the purpose of their detention

Page 18884

1 was mentioned. And of course, sometimes some matters can have more

2 purposes.

3 So let's first try to establish whether those who were detained,

4 for whatever reason, whether they were part of exchange, of prisoners

5 exchange.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Many people who were in the

7 sports hall were exchanged eventually.


9 Q. My question, Mr. Banduka wasn't the reason they were arrested and

10 put in the sports hall was for the purpose of using them for exchange?

11 A. I don't think that that was the main reason, or the basic reason.

12 Q. Was it one of the reasons?

13 A. I suppose there were such cases. There probably were.

14 Q. I'd like to turn to tab 14 of the binder.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Which has a number already.

16 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. This is -- tab 14 is P411.

17 Q. Mr. Banduka, this is an intercepted communication between Radovan

18 Karadzic and Momcilo Mandic, and I'm going to read you a portion of it

19 rather than have you read it.

20 Mr. Mandic says, on the second page of the English, and you can

21 follow along with me if you like. I'm starting reading on the second page

22 of the B/C/S version, about a little bit past halfway down. Mr. Mandic,

23 in this conversation, says: "Yes, yes, we're evacuating them."

24 Karadzic: "How many will there be?"

25 Mandic says: "Well, I don't really know. We have many on the

Page 18885

1 list. There are 300 people from Hadzici, Muslims who have been kept here

2 for seven days. No one's inquired about them. No one seems to care. I

3 don't know what to do."

4 Karadzic: "Why don't --"

5 Mandic: "No one is interested in these Muslims."

6 Karadzic: "Yeah."

7 Mandic: "So we'll try to exchange them for these people from

8 Hrasnica."

9 Now, that talks about 300 Muslims being detained in Hadzici, and

10 it talks about them being essentially used as possible exchange currency.

11 What do you have to say about that, Mr. Banduka?

12 A. Well, first I have to tell you that the same situation was in

13 Tarcin and that the news travel from one side to the other, as I have

14 already told you, from one side to the other. The people who were in the

15 sports hall all wanted to get to the Muslim territory. It was not

16 possible to do that across the combat line. It was not possible to let

17 people go and cross the defence line, because there was shooting going on.

18 It is true that some of the people were transferred to Kula, which is

19 mentioned in this conversation. I don't know how many of them, whether

20 there were 300 of them. I can't remember. Or rather, I didn't know it.

21 I don't know it now.

22 Q. Well, again let me put a proposition to you, Mr. Banduka.

23 Throughout the year of 1992, Bosnian Serbs in Hadzici continued to detain

24 Muslim civilians for purposes of exchanging them; isn't that correct?

25 They continued to arrest them and they continued to detain them, for no

Page 18886

1 other reason than to use them for purposes of exchanging them and removing

2 them from the municipality. Do you agree with that or disagree with that?

3 A. Could you please explain what exchanges, why they had to be

4 exchanged. If you're talking about exchanges, the Muslims on this side,

5 what would we exchange them for, as you put it?

6 Q. Serbs.

7 A. Firstly, a majority of them were not arrested, were not detained.

8 As I've already told you, they were put in this collection centre, they

9 were provided with food, and some sort of living conditions, as well as

10 protection from -- physical protection, because anything could have

11 happened to them in those times.

12 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if we could turn to tab 15. And this is

13 not a document that is translated into B/C/S, but I can direct the witness

14 in the English version quite easily to certain portions of it.

15 Your Honour, this is a document that we received from the Alliance of

16 Former Camp Inmates. It's data from that organisation, and it has --

17 Q. And Mr. Banduka, in the third column -- in the first column it has

18 the name of the individual -- second column, I should say. In the third

19 column it has the year and place of birth. In the fourth column it has

20 the place of arrest. The next column it has the camp. The next column it

21 has the time and date of arrival to the collection location, and the next

22 column is the date of the departure. And then the rest of the data is not

23 particularly important.

24 MR. HARMON: Your Honours, in your tab 15, I'm sorry I forgot to

25 mention there is a supplemental version. I'd ask Your Honours to

Page 18887

1 disregard what is in tab 15, because there's a lengthier version that I

2 was given during the recess, and if that could be distributed or has been

3 distributed already.

4 JUDGE ORIE: It has distributed.

5 MR. HARMON: Yes. Thank you. Then that should be the version

6 which should be the appropriate version.

7 Q. In this, Mr. Banduka, this data that has been provided to us and

8 is before you reflects that a number of Muslims were arrested throughout

9 the period. The largest numbers of those people arrested were in May and

10 in June and in September. So again I confront you with this document,

11 Mr. Banduka, and again ask you if -- what your comments are in respect of

12 this document.

13 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, this document is at the very best

14 second-hand hearsay. I would accept if the witness could deal with the

15 names upon it, see if he knows of them, but I do invite the Court to --

16 invite the Prosecution to treat with the utmost caution a document which I

17 say at the very best is second-hand hearsay.

18 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. My comment on this document,

19 Your Honour, is it is of course hearsay. The reports and the data

20 contained in it come from reports to the Alliance of Former Camp Inmates.

21 The Court has heard testimony in respect of that organisation. And I'm

22 putting to the witness this data.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, we could not ask the witness to read

24 it. I don't know whether it is the purpose of the Prosecution to present

25 this to the witness to see whether he recognises any names. But let's

Page 18888

1 perhaps first ask the witness the following:

2 You've got in front of you a list which is prepared by an

3 organisation which seems to indicate on the basis of the time and date of

4 arrival to collection, and, as you may see, that the camp is in a lot of

5 records. It's the sports hall in Hadzici. Looking at the time of

6 arrival, but also looking at the time and date of departure and from the

7 collection, that it was in many cases far beyond the date you gave, at

8 least as far as the time of departure is concerned.

9 What would be your comment on this information, which seems to be

10 quite different from the time-limit you indicated in your testimony?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just spoke from memory, bearing in

12 mind that I left for the army in the month of June, and the subsequent

13 data is unknown to me. And this document is really not clear to me. Here

14 you have the first name, the last name, and so on and so forth, and the

15 persons who executed. What did they execute? What is this, who carried

16 out something? What is that?


18 Q. Which column are you referring to, Mr. Banduka, when you say "the

19 persons who executed"?

20 A. I really don't understand. Here are the names of people. Are you

21 saying that they were collected, that they were ...

22 Here I only see the time of entering the camp and the time of

23 leaving the camp.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Banduka, may I take you to the fourth page from

25 the bottom. I take it that the witness now has the version in front of

Page 18889

1 him. You've got that, with at the bottom number 961?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, if you would look at the number just above that.

4 That's 1201.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: That is about Djedovic Nermina. Is that the name of

7 a female or of a male?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose, I assume, that this was a

9 woman. How am I supposed to know?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, it says that she was born in 1984 in

11 Sarajevo, that she was arrested in Hadzici. The place of detention is

12 sports centre Hadzici. And now I'm asking your specific attention for the

13 next two entries, which is time and date of arrival to the collection.

14 That's the 9th of September, and the time and date of departure from the

15 collection is 27th of November. This is one example of what Mr. Harmon

16 wants to confront you with, that is, that a list has been prepared by an

17 organisation on which people appear to have been arrested after the time

18 period you mentioned and were then detained for still a considerable

19 period of time, which in this example would be two and a half months.

20 Yes, Mr. --

21 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I mean, this illustrates in my submission

22 the problem with the document. Isn't there at least two different alleged

23 places of detention in relation to 961?

24 JUDGE ORIE: No. And I therefore I fully understand your problem

25 and it's certainly something that people come in and therefore I asked the

Page 18890

1 attention of the witness -- you must have missed, first of all, the name I

2 read out. I asked the witness to look at 1201.

3 MR. JOSSE: I'm sorry.

4 JUDGE ORIE: And not without a reason, of course.

5 MR. JOSSE: I'm sorry. I do beg your pardon.

6 JUDGE ORIE: It was for exactly the reason you mentioned --

7 MR. JOSSE: I'm sorry, Your Honour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- that I gave this as an example.

9 So Mr. Harmon is confronting you now, with, for example, this

10 person, who seems to be detained from mid-September until late November

11 1992 in the Hadzici sports centre and your testimony was that it was only

12 until August that people were detained there. So the question is whether

13 you can comment on this.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I thought that they had

15 stayed there until August, but obviously, if this is a relevant piece of

16 evidence, that I was mistaken. And I've also told you that I was in the

17 army in July, and I told you that I spoke from memory.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, you felt free to say that it was

19 until August, where you said you went to the army in July. And now your

20 absence is used as an explanation why your information might be wrong.

21 Wouldn't that be true then also for the second half of July?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have emphasised, in view of

23 arriving at the truth, that I'm speaking from memory. Obviously I was not

24 aware of the fact that this was a longer period of time. But if we were

25 to analyse this document, I don't know how many such cases there were in

Page 18891

1 the first place. That's why I don't want to say anything about those

2 cases.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock, Mr. Harmon. I'm looking at

4 the clock, and I get some outside warning as well, from what I see. I

5 have one or two issues which first of all I take it you're not ready yet

6 with your cross-examination, Mr. Harmon?

7 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour. No, I'm not. I was wondering if

8 this could have an exhibit number.

9 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P1008, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. How much time would you

11 still need, Mr. Harmon?

12 MR. HARMON: Approximately half an hour, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: That would fit more or less, I think, in the 60 per

14 cent guidance also. But I'll check that and I'll confirm to you whether

15 there's still half an hour left, whether it would not be 20 minutes or 25

16 minutes or ...

17 Then I would like to first of all instruct the witness not to

18 speak with anyone about his testimony that you gave already and you're

19 still about to give. We hope to finish with you tomorrow, but we're

20 sitting in the afternoon and not in the morning. Hopefully we'll finish

21 by the first break. So don't speak with anyone about your testimony, and

22 I'll invite Madam Usher now to escort you out of the courtroom.

23 Then I do understand that there is agreement on an application for

24 protective measures which I don't remember to have seen yet, but it might

25 be that it's there already.

Page 18892

1 [The witness stands down]

2 MR. JOSSE: It was filed I think on Thursday, possibly Friday. It

3 was certainly filed. I personally filed it on behalf of Defence counsel.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Then there's no problem and I do understand there's

5 no objection against the request.

6 MR. HARMON: Correct, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll deal with that. Then, Mr. Josse,

8 the Davidovic submissions for due for today.

9 MR. JOSSE: Exactly the same. I filed them on behalf of both

10 Defence counsel.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

12 MR. JOSSE: And I asked our case manager to call OLAD. They've

13 also been filed electronically.

14 JUDGE ORIE: That's great. Thank you very much.

15 We will then adjourn until tomorrow afternoon in Courtroom II. And

16 tomorrow afternoon is a quarter past 2.00.

17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.56 p.m.,

18 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of

19 November 2005, at 2.15 p.m.