1 Wednesday, 14 December 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Mr. Micic, good afternoon.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
13 Yesterday, I said I'd like to remind you that you're still bound
14 by the solemn declaration that you've given at the beginning of your
15 testimony. Today my language is a bit different. Today, under Rule
16 91(A), the Chamber, proprio motu, warns you of your duty to tell the truth
17 and confronts you with the possible consequences of not speaking the
18 truth. That is a maximum penalty a fine of 100.000 euros or a term of
19 imprisonment of seven years. That can be the consequences of failing to
20 fulfil that duty.
21 I add to that, and that's perhaps far more important, that if a
22 witness extensively testifies and if some of his answers could give the
23 impression that they are not in accordance with a duty of a witness to
24 tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but truth, that perhaps the
25 remainder of his testimony might not receive the credit it perhaps
1 deserves, which could be detrimental for the party who called that
2 witness; in this case the Defence. So this is a formal warning under Rule
4 I add to that, Mr. Tieger, that the Chamber could imagine
5 circumstances in which a cross-examining party would refrain from spending
6 much time going into all kind of details when it challenges the
7 credibility and reliability of a witness. So the Chamber could imagine
8 circumstances in which the cross-examining party would choose a global
9 approach and would consider that would be sufficient. Of course it's left
10 to the party, but the Chamber could understand that under certain
11 circumstances one would not go -- would not pay a lot of attention, a lot
12 of time to all details if a global impression has been established.
13 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, may I simply observe that since Your
14 Honour was going through the technical formality of warning the witness as
15 to the consequences, the two possible consequences that Your Honour
16 indicated, there is a further possibility that it can, strictly speaking,
17 be both, and I wonder whether Your Honour should, for absolute
18 completeness, make --
19 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree that Rule 91(G) says both. So Mr. Stewart
20 corrects me adequately - very adequately - to say that it's not only
21 100.000 euros or a term of imprisonment of seven years but there is the
22 possibility that both penalties could be imposed if it would be
23 established that a false testimony under solemn declaration is given.
24 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.
25 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 WITNESS: MOMCILO MICIC [Resumed]
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Cross-examined by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Micic. I expect to be --
5 A. Good afternoon.
6 Q. I expect to be quite brief this afternoon, as I've already advised
7 my learned colleagues from the Defence, so my questions for you and this
8 phase of your examination should be short, especially if you can answer
9 any questions that I put to you that may be answered appropriately with a
10 yes or no with simply a yes or no.
11 You testified yesterday and the day before about the activities of
12 Arkan and about support by Mrs. Plavsic for Arkan, and then you were
13 asked, at page 30 of yesterday's LiveNote, whether you were ever aware of
14 any support given by Mr. Krajisnik for the activities of Arkan, and your
15 response was, "No. As far as I know, the only support that Arkan enjoyed
16 was from Mrs. Plavsic."
17 Were you aware, Mr. Micic, at any time of Mr. Krajisnik offering
18 praise or expressing some form of praise for Arkan's positive and
19 significant efforts, or indicating that he should have -- that he had
20 positive and significant credits when it comes to the Serbian people?
21 A. I don't remember whether any such things happened. Probably, if
22 Arkan was there, and I assume he was, but I really don't remember anything
23 like that.
24 Q. Let me show you a brief video clip.
25 MR. TIEGER: And I'd ask that that be marked next in order.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, did we assign already a number to
2 yesterday's video clip?
3 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do that.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1022, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's for yesterday's.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And for today's video.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P1023.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 By the way, Mr. Tieger, have you verified yesterday whether or not
12 this 34th session was already in evidence?
13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, there may be some confusion. I actually
14 checked to see whether an excerpt from the 46th --
15 JUDGE ORIE: 46th. I might make a mistake here, yes.
16 MR. TIEGER: And the Court was quite correct; that is P529, Hanson
17 tab 468, and that is the entirety of that session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: So that number then will -- perhaps to avoid whatever
19 confusion, we leave that number open so that we have no -- we don't have a
20 subsequent numbering, but otherwise having two documents under one number
21 ever would certainly create all kind of confusion.
22 MR. TIEGER: I quite agree, and in that connection it's important
23 for me to note that the document that was given P1021 was the previous
24 exhibit, and I think that's P653.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll try to sort that out with the registrar
1 so that we don't have any doubles. Please proceed.
2 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps before it's played, we could be handed
4 out the -- what I think are the transcripts.
5 [Videotape played]
6 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Anchor: Viewer from Sid asked
7 Mr. Krajisnik: What do you think about Arkan's statement regarding acts
8 of deputies of Republika Srpska and at all-Serbian Assembly and at the
9 previous Assembly?
10 "Momcilo Krajisnik: I think that Mr. Arkan has many positive and
11 significant credits when it comes to the Serbian people. So when I
12 consider his negative statements, the balance is still positive. So I do
13 not blame him. Nobody banned deputies to come to the Parliament. Every
14 deputy can confirm that. We simply have deputy and assembly discipline.
15 Discipline to respect each other. And I am grateful to deputies for
16 accepting an appeal not to attend this Assembly session without any
17 pressure at all because it was the conclusion of the Main Board of the
18 Serbian Democratic Party and our Assembly."
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. First, Mr. Micic, do you recall seeing that particular broadcast
22 A. No. This is some television programme. I think it was a
23 programme from Pale. I recognise this anchor. But I don't remember the
25 Q. And does seeing this broadcast jog your memory about any other
1 occasions on which you heard or became aware of Mr. Krajisnik expressing
2 his views about the many positive and significant credits that Arkan had
3 with respect to the Serbian people, or any other praise along those lines?
4 A. Well, I can't remember. You must understand that that was, after
5 all, some 12 or 13 years ago, and I am of an age where I cannot remember
6 everything very well.
7 Now, as for Arkan himself, I considered him to be very bad and
8 very negative, and I always did my best not to be in the same room that he
9 was in.
10 Q. Let me turn your attention now to the period of time before the
11 walkout of the SDS deputies at the --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, could you give us, as always, some
13 context as far as time is concerned of this -- of this video, of this
15 MR. TIEGER: I will endeavour to do so, Your Honour. I'm
16 reasonably confident that there are a number of contextual --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but please provide --
18 MR. TIEGER: -- facts that will permit us to do so within
19 appropriate limits.
20 Q. Mr. Micic, I had just asked you to turn your attention back to the
21 period of time before the walkout of the SDS at the joint Bosnian Assembly
22 on October 14th or 15th, 1991. Before that time, in let's say September,
23 mid-September, mid to late September 1991, based on your contact with
24 Mr. Krajisnik or Dr. Karadzic, were they aware that you could be counted
25 on to support SDS policies? That is, did you indicate to them that they
1 -- that you could be counted on to support SDS policies?
2 A. Well, I don't think they could count on that in view of the
3 overall SDS policies, but when there was out-voting, yes.
4 Q. Well, with respect to the most significant issues of concern to
5 the Bosnian Serb leadership and the SDS, that is those matters for which
6 out-voting was a subject of concern, did you make clear to Mr. Krajisnik
7 or Dr. Karadzic that they could count on you for support; in essence, that
8 you were their man?
9 A. I don't remember. I attended on one occasion in the deputies'
10 club of the SDS. I was there once, I know that I just addressed them, or
11 not, but I left the meeting. I don't really remember. But that I
12 discussed the matter openly, that I would listen to them to the letter, I
13 don't think there was anything like that. And I don't think they made
14 such demands upon me, because they had an absolute majority. So several
15 of us independent deputies in the Assembly later on didn't represent a
16 real force in the Assembly of any kind.
17 MR. TIEGER: Let me have marked the next exhibit in order, that's
18 found at tab 16, it's an intercepted conversation between Dr. Karadzic and
19 Mr. Krajisnik of September 18, 1991. I appreciate that the current state
20 of numbering makes it a bit difficult for the registrar.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I just learned from the registrar that, as far as the
22 previous exhibits are concerned, they're now renumbered, that the video
23 clip that is the television broadcast with Mr. Micic and Mr. Maksimovic
24 would be P1020, so the transcript then being 1020A, A.1 for the English
25 translation. And the video we just looked at, which was the footage in
1 which Mr. Krajisnik appears, would be P1021, and then A for the transcript
2 and A.1 for the English translation.
3 Apart from that, since we're dealing with it anyway, Mr. Tieger,
4 perhaps it would be a good idea to limit P1020 to the portion that was
5 actually played, because we are now in the possession of a copy which
6 contains other portions of the video which we haven't seen, unless you'd
7 like to tender that as a kind of contextual written exhibit. Then, of
8 course, we should hear from the Defence whether there would be any
10 MR. TIEGER: That would be my intention, Your Honour. I think the
11 Defence had a chance to see it. I certainly want to give them ample
12 opportunity to look at it in the context the Court mentions, but I don't
13 anticipate any objection.
14 MR. STEWART: We would want that opportunity, please.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then at least I do not invite to you provide the
16 Chamber at this moment with a shorter version of P1020. Please proceed.
17 We have now the last number to be assigned. That is the --
18 THE REGISTRAR: P1023, Your Honours -- 22. 22.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And that would then be the intercepted telephone
20 conversation. Yes, please proceed, Mr. Tieger.
21 MR. TIEGER:
22 Q. Mr. Micic, as I indicated, the document that you're now looking at
23 is a transcript of a conversation between Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik
24 on September 18, 1991. And if you can -- would begin at the portion of
25 the conversation about roughly halfway down the first page, Mr. Krajisnik
1 says: "Well, I can tell you, I've just been over to ... have a talk with
2 the reformists."
3 Dr. Karadzic says: "Uh-huh.
4 "Mr. Krajisnik: I've had no success with you so they seem to
5 have ... you know, there are many possibilities for you to improve, you're
7 "Dr. Karadzic: Uh-huh, yes.
8 "Mr. Krajisnik: You can't fix anything there anymore.
9 "Dr. Karadzic: All right. Who is this ...?
10 "Mr. Krajisnik: Our man, Momcilo Micic from Tuzla.
11 "Dr. Karadzic: Uh-huh.
12 "Mr. Krajisnik: He's ours, you know, he's got a brother here."
13 Mr. Micic, do you recall the specific details of the conversation
14 you and the other reformists had with Mr. Krajisnik on September 18, 1991?
15 A. On one occasion I did go to see Mr. Krajisnik in his offices, and
16 I think Dragan Kalinic was with me on the occasion, and perhaps someone
17 else, I don't know, but I think we went there with respect to a request
18 from the party, the Reformist Party alliance with respect to the Assembly,
19 because we'd already left the alliance of reformist parties. That's how I
20 came to be there. Now, what he said, who he talked to, what his
21 assessments and evaluations were I really don't know.
22 Q. I take it from your answer, sir, that you don't recall the
23 specific conversation that Mr. Krajisnik is referring to in this
25 I heard you say "yes" but I don't see it -- I didn't hear an
1 answer from the interpreter's booth.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Was your answer yes, Mr. Micic? Yes in the sense
3 that --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
6 MR. TIEGER:
7 Q. Whatever the details of that conversation, however, Mr. Micic, can
8 we agree that you left Mr. Krajisnik in no doubt that you were their man;
9 that is, Dr. Karadzic's and Mr. Krajisnik's man?
10 A. Well, I didn't do anything to leave that impression, but if they
11 did have that impression, I can't know that. I don't know.
12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I have nothing further. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
14 Mr. Stewart, is there any need to re-examine the witness?
15 MR. STEWART: No, thank you, Your Honour.
16 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Krajisnik.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you wanted to address the Chamber?
19 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, before Mr. Krajisnik begins, can we
20 inquire whether he will be raising any matter that requires the absence of
21 the witness?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you could first briefly tell us what you
23 would like to say. May I just ask you, would you want to ask any
24 additional questions to the witness, Mr. Krajisnik?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I would like to ask questions
1 based on the questions by the Prosecutor.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then as usual you are first expected to consult
3 with counsel before I will give you an opportunity to do so. Perhaps with
4 the assistance of Mr. Karganovic you could, unless you are aware already.
5 MR. STEWART: May I make a preliminary inquiry first, Your Honour,
6 and then if it suggests that I need more time, then I'll say so.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so. Please do so, and take care that all
8 the microphones are off.
9 [Defence counsel and accused confer]
10 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, it's quite clear - and I see
11 Mr. Krajisnik has some notes - I have to ask for a few minutes to consult
12 him properly.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn for -- for a start, seven
14 minutes. Would that --
15 MR. STEWART: From the note, Your Honour, maybe ten minutes,
17 JUDGE ORIE: Ten minutes. Okay. We'll adjourn until 3.00.
18 --- Break taken at 2.50 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 3.05 p.m.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart.
21 MR. STEWART: Your Honour, thank you for that opportunity. My
22 position as counsel is still that the Defence would have no
23 re-examination. That's full stop.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear, and as we decided before, if
25 Mr. Krajisnik thinks that additional questions should be put to the
1 witness, that in view of his wish to be actively involved in his -- in his
2 Defence, the Chamber will not disallow him to put some additional
3 questions if he insists on doing it after having sought advice from his
5 Mr. Krajisnik, the Chamber at the same time, I would say
6 especially now under the present circumstances, will insist on proper
7 formulation of questions. That is, this is your witness, so you should
8 not lead the witness. So you may put some additional questions to the
9 witness. Please proceed.
10 Examined by Mr. Krajisnik:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, you saw the footage when Krajisnik said
12 about Arkan, "I think that Mr. Arkan has many positive and significant
13 credits when it comes to the Serbian people. So when I consider his
14 negative statements, the balance is still positive," and so on and so
16 My question is: Was the point to commend Arkan, or was the point
17 to tell the deputies who did not go to the -- deputies who did not go to
18 the Assembly to talk about Arkan. Maybe we can look at the footage.
19 MR. TIEGER: [Previous translation continues] ...
20 JUDGE ORIE: I take it, Mr. Tieger, that by this question the
21 witness is invited to comment on what the speaker had in mind. From what
22 I understand is that the speaker will testify soon. What we could ask the
23 witness - and let me take over, Mr. Krajisnik - have you seen this footage
24 at that time? I think you testified that you did not; is that correct?
25 Or that you have no recollection of having seen it at that time.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I do not recall seeing
2 it, and I don't think that I did see it. That programme was broadcast
3 from Studio Pale, whereas I was living in Belgrade and in Belgrade it
4 wasn't possible to see those programmes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now, having seen this footage, is there -- does there
6 come anything in your mind which would assist the Chamber to better
7 understand this footage and what matter actually was addressed when
8 Mr. Krajisnik spoke these words?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would perhaps interpret that a
10 little differently. Arkan did enjoy certain -- not honours but confidence
11 and sympathies from a certain number of people in Republika Srpska also,
12 and I think that other than what Mr. Krajisnik said, that this was also
13 addressed to the viewers in some way not to create a bad atmosphere in
14 Republika Srpska itself, but it was probably also said with the intention
15 that somebody else hears it too.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is that what comes into your mind?
17 Mr. Krajisnik, it appears that you are the speaker. If your
18 counsel would like to know exactly what was addressed by you at that time,
19 I take it that -- and since you have an opportunity to consult counsel
20 before testifying, and that questions, if they would assist the Chamber,
21 will certainly be put to you and we would hear your answer.
22 We now heard from the witness what he -- what came into his mind
23 and what would assist the Chamber in better understanding the video clip.
24 Please proceed with your next question.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like for His Honour to
1 formulate the question that I wanted to put to the witness, because the
2 text here is much longer. It includes more besides what is said about
4 JUDGE ORIE: It's a bit -- I formulated your last question in such
5 a way that it was, I hope, not objectionable any more by the Prosecution,
6 but if it is about the interpretation and the gist of what was said in
7 this television programme, Mr. Krajisnik, if it's about that, I already
8 told you that you'll have an ample opportunity, first of all, to consult
9 with counsel and then to answer any question in relation to that when you
10 testify yourself. We have now heard from the witness what comes into his
11 mind now seeing this footage which he hasn't seen at that time. So please
12 put your next question to the witness.
13 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
14 Q. The next question, Mr. Micic, is: You have been accused here of
15 not speaking the truth because you could not recall ever hearing about
16 strategic goals.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, no one is accused. This witness is
18 warned. You should carefully listen to what we say.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. Warned.
20 JUDGE ORIE: It's more or less -- it's more or less commenting.
21 This Chamber is fully aware that the witness has told us that on the -- on
22 the subject of the six strategic goals what his recollection is and was.
23 The witness has been warned. If there is any question to put to the
24 witness, could you do that without these kind of introductions.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may put the question, Your
1 Honour, please permit me to do that. If not, well, then I really cannot
2 concentrate because of your interruptions. I just wanted to make an
3 introduction and then put the question to the witness.
4 You didn't accuse the witness, but the Prosecutor accused him
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Put the question to the witness without these
7 kind of introductions.
8 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Yesterday, you were given the example that you could not recall
10 the strategic goals from the meeting of August and September 1993.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to have
12 that material in front of him so that he can follow. 0215-0513.
13 Actually, 508. That is the minutes of the recording of the 34th session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could tab 7 be put in front of the witness.
15 MR. TIEGER: And the corresponding English portion, Your Honour?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that you say, Mr. Krajisnik, 508.
17 That's the cover page; is that correct?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Right. Now, which page you especially wanted
20 to address the witness's attention to.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Two pages. That's the fifth page,
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Have you found that? That's page 5 of the --
24 page 5 of the document.
25 And, Mr. Tieger, for your information, that is page 6 of the
1 English. At least, I think it is. That's the agenda, Mr. Krajisnik?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's correct.
3 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Can you please read item 2 of this agenda.
5 A. "Constitutional agreement on the Alliance of the BiH Republics."
6 Q. Can you confirm that this debate was conducted as part of this
7 item of the agenda?
8 A. Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I couldn't say that the question is not
10 leading, Mr. Krajisnik, but perhaps I can imagine -- I take it that you
11 want to draw our attention to the fact that the remarks -- some of the
12 remarks the witness was confronted with were made when agenda item 2 was
14 Mr. Tieger, I take it that we could proceed. Yes.
15 Next question, please, Mr. Krajisnik.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to have a map placed on
17 the ELMO so the witness could look at it, and that's the agreement that
18 was actually being adopted at that session.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you have any exhibit? Oh, you have a -- is
20 that already in evidence? And perhaps you also showed --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I think that it's already been
22 admitted. I think the best thing would be for it to be placed on the
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if we place it on the ELMO, we'll try to track
25 that down to the exhibit number it represents. It is on the ELMO. Could
1 we zoom in a bit because the light is -- do you want to look at the
2 left-hand side or the right-hand side, Mr. Krajisnik?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Both sides, if possible.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Light is a bit of a problem. Is there any way
5 of adjusting that? Yes, that's better.
6 Mr. Krajisnik, you may put your question to the witness.
7 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation] I would like you to read the
8 titles or the caption under the first map and under the second map.
9 I'm now addressing the witness.
10 A. Yes, I can see the title.
11 Q. Can you read it allowed, please.
12 A. "Owen's Balkan --"
13 Q. No, underneath the map.
14 A. Underneath the map, map 9, it says: "The union of three
15 republics, August 1993."
16 Q. And what about the caption beneath the second map?
17 A. "Map 10, areas from which according to the union map Serbs should
18 withdraw in 1993."
19 Q. My question is: Do you remember the discussion about that plan?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, I'd first like to have the map again
21 on the -- on our screens so that we can better look at it. Yes. There we
22 are again. Yes.
23 Your question -- the question put to you, Mr. Micic, was whether
24 you remember the discussion about that plan.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do remember the discussions, but
1 we would need to have more time, or I would need to have more information
2 in order to be able to recall better this exact discussion. I think this
3 is Cutileiro's map, but I'm not sure.
4 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Well, take as much time as you need.
6 A. I cannot really remember anything more specific. I do remember
7 that there were always some maps on the board and that there was
8 discussion about this and how the Serbs did not want to withdraw,
9 especially not from this part called Visoko Krajina, and here it is said
10 that they were supposed to withdraw from there, and I think the largest
11 number of questions were about that.
12 Q. Very well. So you don't recall. Can we conclude that you do not
13 recall the discussion about these maps and this plan from 1993, from
14 August 1993?
15 A. Yes. We can conclude really that I cannot remember.
16 Q. Now, I would like to look at 7.A and B -- no, I'm actually talking
17 about tab 7.A.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, Mr. Krajisnik, what is in evidence -
19 that's D61.1 - is some pages of the B/C/S -- it's D61, some pages of the
20 book by David Owen, "Balkan Odyssey," and we have D61.1, the translation
21 of these same pages. The maps that appear both in the B/C/S original and
22 in the English translation are, first of all, only maps which look similar
23 and, as a matter of fact, two copies, two maps which look more or less
24 similar as compared to the one on page 246 of the document you have asked
25 us to put on the ELMO.
1 It looks as if there are two different versions of the book in
2 B/C/S, the B/C/S version, because the pages that are in evidence - that's
3 D61 - are 266 and 267 and 312, 313, whereas the maps here appear on 246
4 and 247, and 246 very much resembles the map on page 266 of the copy that
5 is in evidence that's D61, but is not exactly the same. So therefore
6 we'll verify, perhaps, but it's not exactly the same. It's not in
7 evidence. So I'd like Mr. Registrar to assign a D number to the maps
8 which we find now on the ELMO.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D114, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: D114.
11 THE REGISTRAR: And that's for pages bearing 246 and 247.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Mr. Micic, your attention is drawn to tab 7.A.
13 Would you please look at tab 7.A.
14 And, Mr. Krajisnik, would you please put the question to the
16 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
17 Q. On page 25 -- actually 0215-0643 --
18 A. I've found it.
19 Q. Well, let's just check whether Their Honours and my friends from
20 the Prosecution have found the place.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think we have. 7.A, page 128 in the English is
22 the first page of 7.A.
23 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
24 Q. It says there "Presiding," and then strategic goals are discussed.
25 I would like you to tell us who the presiding person was.
1 A. Momcilo Krajisnik.
2 Q. Thank you very much. On page 28, 0215-0646, you can see there the
3 way voting was conducted. I would just like to help you find it.
4 A. Yes, I've found it.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, it's page 131 in English.
6 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Could you please read the part after the voting and before the
8 applause, the sentence.
9 A. "I would like to ask you to return to our work. We need to adopt
10 the platform now."
11 Q. What -- it's the first paragraph above that, where it says: "Who
12 is in favour?
13 "Who is opposed?
14 "Who abstains ..."
15 A. "Gentlemen, you have got Republic of Srpska!"
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, let's just see if Their
17 Honours have found that place.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we've found it. We followed it. It's the part
19 that starts with --
20 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Can you please repeat your answer.
22 A. "Gentlemen, you have got Republika Srpska."
23 Q. Yesterday, you were shown the decision on the establishment of the
24 Serb municipality of Tuzla.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. You were faced with the presentation of Mr. Milan Tesic, and that
2 is 0214-9623. I do apologise but it was a separate document. It wasn't
3 in the binders.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could you retrieve that document.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is number 17, with the decision
6 on the founding of the Serbian municipality of Tuzla, the Tuzla
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It was in the binder. Tab 17.
9 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Can you see the heading there and the date when the meeting was
11 held? It says "Decision on the establishment," et cetera. What date was
13 A. I have two dates in the preamble.
14 Q. Read out what it says. "At a meeting held ..." when?
15 A. The Serbian municipality of Tuzla is being established. "The
16 Serbian municipality is hereby established. The municipality's seat is in
17 Tuzla. The territory --" et cetera.
18 Q. No. In the heading, before the title "Decision."
19 A. It says: "Pursuant to Article 116 of the Constitution of the
20 Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia, SFRY, Official Gazette -" et
21 cetera - "Article 2 on the territories of municipalities, local communes
22 and settlements in Bosnia and Herzegovina which are considered to be the
23 territory of the Federal State of Yugoslavia of the 21st of November,
24 1992, and Article 4 of the Instructions on the organisation and activity
25 of organs of the Serbian people in BH under emergency circumstances of the
1 19th of December, 1991, the Assembly of the Serbian municipality of Tuzla
2 adopted, as its session held on the 3rd of March, 1992, the following
4 Q. Yes. So the date is the 3rd of March. Now, I would like to ask
5 you to take a look --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, the interpreters have translated
7 the 21st of November, 1992, which actually does appear in the English
8 version, but the original says 21st of February, 1991. So that should be
9 corrected. And I take it that the interpreters, looking at the original,
10 would agree with me. I don't know what the witness read, whether he read
11 1991 or 1992 but it seems obvious --
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter said what she heard.
13 MR. STEWART: If I might just point out Your Honour, I think
14 inadvertently, said February there as well, or that's what appears in the
15 transcript, which is going to add to the difficulty clearing up this
17 JUDGE ORIE: I'm talking about the date the 21st of November. I
18 now do understand from the interpreters that the witness read 21st of
19 November, 1992, although the original in B/C/S says 1991, and the English,
20 I think, incorrectly translates this into 1992.
21 But we are focusing now, Mr. Micic, on the adoption of this
22 decision on the 3rd of March, 1992.
23 Please proceed, Mr. Krajisnik.
24 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Yesterday, you were shown the discussion by Mr. Milan Tesic.
1 0214-9623 was the number.
2 A. In the same tab?
3 Q. No, it was a separate document, a separate piece of paper. It
4 says tape number 28. It's not in the binder. But anyway, you were
5 presented with the discussion that Mr. Tesic had at the Assembly, what he
6 said. The number is 4-9623, the last few digits. I can provide you with
7 my own copy.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness can take my copy because
9 I know what it's about.
10 JUDGE ORIE: If we could put the original on the ELMO for the --
12 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Could you put it up a bit. Would you read out three lines of what
14 Mr. Tesic says.
15 A. He said: "Ladies and gentlemen, distinguished persons, we brought
16 in the decision to form the Tuzla municipality on the 23rd of March. It
17 was sent by telefax on the 24th of March, and here we have the trace of
18 the telex. So by omission, the decision was not verified and introduced
19 into the already verified municipality."
20 Q. Thank you. May we then conclude that the date of the decision is
21 different --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you don't know how to put these
23 questions to the witness, but I'll try to do as good as I can to raise the
25 Mr. Micic, the document you were just shown, tab 17, gives the 3rd
1 of March, 1992, as the date on which the decision on the establishment of
2 the Serbian municipality of Tuzla was adopted. In the passage you just
3 read, the adoption, because there was a slight problem with the
4 translation and it was corrected, the date of the adoption of the decision
5 on establishing the Tuzla municipality is 23rd of March. Could you give
6 us any explanation as to the difference in dates we can observe in these
7 two documents?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he says here that he has a
9 telex with that date, when it was dispatched, the fax. So quite obviously
10 there is a collision between the two.
11 Now, I'd like to return you to what I -- to take you back to what
12 I said the day before yesterday. I don't know that the Serbian
13 municipality of Tuzla was established and that there was an attempt to
14 form it in another place, not in Tuzla. So this is pressure exerted,
15 consistently exerted by Milan Tesic and a Professor named Professor Stavic
16 who insisted that I should prevail with the Assembly organs to verify the
17 municipality and give it legality. And they said to me that if the
18 municipality was not verified, then I would lose my term of office, my
19 mandate. And I said right, fine, then it will never be verified.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You were aware of any decision that needed
21 verification at that time and decision which in your view was not fully
22 correct, but you were sent with this message by, you said, Professor -- on
23 the record it says that pressure was exerted by Milan Tesic and Professor
24 Stavic, it says, that it should be -- it should go to the Assembly organs
25 to verify that. That's what you knew?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but that was much later than
2 this date. That pressure was exerted much later, when the Serbs had
3 already started leaving Tuzla. And I said that before this Trial Chamber.
4 So that was when the municipalities were formed and established in
5 Bijeljina -- in Lopare first and then in Bijeljina.
6 JUDGE ORIE: When you say much later, would that still be within
7 the -- within the time frame running from the 3rd of March to the 23rd, or
8 would that be outside that period?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Much later. After May. Perhaps
10 even July/August 1992. And all -- I can just interpret this. It's my
11 free interpretation that it was machination on the part of Tesic to
12 convince the Assembly that something had happened.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Krajisnik. Put your next
14 question to the witness.
15 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Yesterday, you were shown a document sent by Petar Jankovic to
17 Minister Ostojic. The number is 00017, the last digits. Shall we just
18 take a moment for everybody to be able to find it? It was a handwritten
20 A. Yes, I remember.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's tab 18, Mr. Krajisnik.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right. I apologise, Your
23 Honour. Yes, tab 18.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And I was informed that that document was already in
25 evidence, so the number assigned to it yesterday is withdrawn. So we are
1 now at tab 18. Yes, please, Mr. Krajisnik.
2 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Just the first page. Can you see a date there in the upper
4 left-hand column, upper left-hand corner?
5 A. It says the 25th of March, 1992. You mean the stamp?
6 Q. No.
7 A. The 23rd of March, 1992, is that the one you mean?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Yes, I can see that.
10 Q. Would you now take a look at the signature at the end there, at
11 the end of the document on the second page. Can you read out what it
12 says. Who signed?
13 A. The president of the Serbian municipality of Kalesija, Petar
14 Jankovic, I think.
15 Q. Now, Kalesija, is that within the region of Tuzla?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Does that confirm your statement to the effect that there were
18 attempts to form municipalities outside Tuzla and that Tuzla hadn't formed
19 its Serbian municipality?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Just one more question now. You spoke about a meeting
22 yesterday with Mr. Savo Jankovic and Mr. Karadzic, Krajisnik, in the
23 Holiday Inn.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, could you tell us, please, who scheduled the meeting? Who
1 told you to go to a meeting like that?
2 A. I think that was you. I called you, and I think you scheduled the
3 meeting. And you were the only person that I could contact. I couldn't
4 contact anybody from the government or the Presidency.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, I will remind the Trial Chamber that you said
6 yesterday that you were disillusioned because you received no plans or, to
7 put it in a better way, you never heard of any plan from Mr. Karadzic; is
8 that right?
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, I'd like to ask the Trial
11 Chamber to take a look at the following: It is the Assembly held on the
12 27th of March, 1992. 025873 is the number of the document. We had it
13 yesterday. That's the page number, the last four digits 5873.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That very much seems to be under tab 4. Is that
15 correct, Mr. Krajisnik?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right, Your Honour. I think
17 I have a different set of tabs, I'm afraid.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have -- as a matter of fact, the 27th of
19 March would have been the 14th Assembly. Is that -- I have that under tab
20 4, but it does not give the number you just indicated. Let me just check.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but I have a copy
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please say the numbers slower.
24 Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please slowly read again the ERN number,
1 Mr. Krajisnik.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] SA025873.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I have some difficulty in finding that.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is page 31 of the Serbian
5 transcript, if that could be of assistance.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Which tab, then, for you, Mr. Krajisnik?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yesterday, I received a separate set
8 of documents from the session of the 27th of March, and the Prosecutor did
9 mention that particular session himself.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, is there any way you could assist us,
11 because --
12 MR. TIEGER: I think -- in one sense, Your Honour, I think there
13 are extracts from the 14th session but not the entirety of the 14th
14 session copied and provided in that tab. So if Mr. Krajisnik is referring
15 to a portion of the Assembly session that was not contained in that
16 particular tab, none of us have it but him.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Correct, yes. Thank you for your
18 assistance, Mr. Tieger.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Krajisnik, do you have the B/C/S version
20 available so that we could put it on the ELMO?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly, with the greatest of
23 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please assist Mr. Krajisnik.
24 If portions are read, could it be done slowly so that the
25 interpreters can follow.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to say that this is what
2 Mr. Karadzic said, and you can check that out in the minutes from the
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the portion you would like to draw the
5 attention of the witness to be read, could you please invite the witness
6 to read it, but then slowly, and also to indicate exactly what portion you
7 would like him to read. Is it the highlighted portion, Mr. Krajisnik?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask the witness to read
9 the highlighted portion, because it is Prosecution material, and I did
10 mark the extract I wanted him to read. The lower part.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The war in Bosnia-Herzegovina will
12 not solve anything, but if it does start, they will receive the plans, but
13 could you place the people in the formation of the Territorial Defence
14 straight away, put reserve officers at their head so that units and
15 companies should be formed as well as Crisis Staffs and pensioned officers
16 should be engaged and involved as well. This should be done in the whole
17 of our area.
18 "In the Crisis Staff we have the president of the municipality,
19 the Executive Board, the highest people in our authorities, plus the
20 reserve officers and the situation for defence of lives and property
21 should be studied as well as territory. We have no other plans."
22 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thank you. Does that confirm your observation that
24 Mr. Karadzic --
25 MR. TIEGER: I have to object to questions that begin, "Can we
1 conclude ..." "Does that confirm ..." et cetera.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krajisnik, you can put questions to the witness
3 but not ask for a conclusion and then formulate yourself what the
4 conclusion should be.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll reformulate that question.
6 MR. KRAJISNIK: [Interpretation]
7 Q. The text you read out, is that different from your conclusion from
8 the meeting with Mr. Karadzic?
9 A. Yes, it does differ.
10 Q. Can you tell us in what way?
11 A. Well, it says here that some steps were taken as to how that
12 should be done, whereas at the meeting we didn't gain that impression and
13 we didn't receive information of that kind. As far as I recall his
14 statement, he said the people will decide for themselves. Now, the
15 people, when he said the people, I didn't know what he meant, so I don't
16 know anything about that.
17 Q. Perhaps I wasn't precise enough in asking my question. All I want
18 to ask you is this, and it has to do with the plans: He says, "We don't
19 have any other plans." That's the last sentence, and I'm asking you
20 whether that part of the sentence, or excerpt, differs or coincides with
21 the impression you yourself gained when you visited Mr. Karadzic.
22 A. No, it doesn't differ.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Krajisnik. Let's see whether the
25 Bench has any questions to Mr. Micic.
1 Mr. Micic, Judge Hanoteau has one or more questions for you.
2 Questioned by the Court:
3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. I have a technical
5 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's better - Judge Hanoteau has one or more
6 questions for you, I have one or more questions four as well - to first
7 have a break. We will adjourn until quarter past four.
8 --- Recess taken at 3.52 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 4.18 p.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, I would like to announce to the
11 parties that, as I indicated before, that the Chamber was considering to
12 sit tomorrow the whole of the day, that we have decided that we would --
13 that we will. We have received no responses or objections to it. And
14 then Friday is still uncertain.
15 Yes, Judge Hanoteau would have some questions for you, Mr. Micic.
16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes, a couple of questions for
17 the witness. The first one is on the institutional relationship. You
18 talked about the two assemblies; one, the people's Assembly, and other one
19 is the municipal -- the Assembly of municipalities, to put things simply.
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So could you tell me who was
22 chairing these two Assemblies. Was there a single chairperson for the two
23 Assemblies or did each Assembly have a president?
24 A. Could you tell me for what period of time you're thinking.
25 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Well, I'm talking about the
1 period before Republika Srpska.
2 A. Before the establishment of Republika Srpska, the Assembly, the
3 people's Assembly or, rather, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly,
4 was just one Assembly with two houses. The president of that Assembly was
5 Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik. And every municipality had its own Assembly and
6 its own president.
7 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Okay. But this Assembly had two
8 Chambers, is that it? One is the Council of Peoples, and the other one
9 was the Council of Municipalities. Is that it?
10 A. Yes.
11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So these two councils, were they
12 always chaired by Mr. Krajisnik even when they were sitting separately?
13 A. No. When the Chamber of Citizens met, it was Dr. Konjicija that
14 presided, and the Assembly of Municipalities was Petko Cancar. If Momcilo
15 Krajisnik happened to be at any of those Assemblies, he would attend just
16 like any other deputy.
17 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Mr. Krajisnik was chairing the
18 plenary sessions when the two Assemblies were together. Then it was
19 Mr. Krajisnik that was presiding. Is that it? Is that the way it worked?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] That's the way it worked. Thank
22 you. Thank you for this.
23 A second question now about what you called the massacre of May
24 15th. Was this an isolated event in your municipality or were there
25 already similar events? And I'm talking about incidents, you know, where
1 Muslims were committing -- were against the Serbs.
2 A. The first incidents -- that was the first incident on that
3 territory. Before that, there were no incidents of that kind.
4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And after May 15th were there
5 other incidents of the same kind? Serious incidents I'm talking about,
6 serious incidents, or was it really an isolated event?
7 A. After the 15th of May, the Yugoslav People's Army withdrew its
8 forces and equipment from the airport at Dubrava, near Tuzla, and that's
9 when an entire column left through Tuzla, but nothing happened, because
10 there were threats by the then colonel, the commander of the airport, of
11 the air field, that he would blow up the planes. And I think two or three
12 MiGs were flying over Tuzla at that time.
13 I wasn't in Tuzla myself, but that's the information I received.
14 So that column passed through quite quietly, without any incidents taking
15 place. They left Tuzla that way.
16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] If I can go a little bit further
17 into this. Were there aggressions carried out by the Muslims against the
18 Serbs that had stayed in Tuzla? Murders, slaughters, or nothing? And I'm
19 talking about that period of time.
20 A. Yes, there were. Yes, there was.
21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Could you give me details?
22 A. Well, there were certain groups of armed people who had their
23 private prisons, and there was abuse, mistreatment, killings and attempts
24 of people leaving Tuzla by a roundabout route, or where there weren't any
25 roads. There was shooting. Those people was shot at, and some were
2 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] But you haven't witnessed
3 anything because you weren't there. You heard about this; right?
4 A. That's right. I wasn't, that's right.
5 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] So you heard about this only.
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you for answering my
9 A. You're welcome.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few questions for you as well.
11 Mr. Krajisnik asked you a question about who arranged for the
12 meeting you had with Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik early in 1992. The
13 month of March was mentioned. You said that you called him because you
14 could not call anyone from the Presidency. Nevertheless, Mr. Karadzic was
15 present. Could you explain what happened that made Mr. Karadzic to be
16 present. Did you ask for it? Was it offered to you? How was this all
17 arranged, this meeting?
18 A. Well, I asked for a meeting with Mr. Karadzic. I asked
19 Mr. Krajisnik to arrange for a meeting with Mr. Karadzic for me.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And did you then specifically ask Mr. Krajisnik to be
21 present as well or were you just seeking a meeting with Mr. Karadzic?
22 A. I wasn't specific. I don't think I put any conditions.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, when you -- why did you call Mr. Krajisnik
24 if you wanted to have a meeting with Mr. Karadzic?
25 A. For the simple reason to come into connection with Mr. Karadzic.
1 I don't know otherwise where I could have found him, come into contact
2 with him, because he was just a party president at that time. He wasn't a
3 functionary, he wasn't in the Presidency of Bosnia or in its Assembly
5 JUDGE ORIE: Wouldn't that make it even easier to contact him
6 directly when he had no function?
7 A. Well, I would probably have to do that via the local SDS, but I
8 didn't want to even attempt to do that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Totally different subject: You told us how
10 quite a substantive load of oil was stolen, as far as I understand, or at
11 least seized by Mauzer. You remember your testimony about that?
12 A. Yes, I remember that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You told us that you heard that it was Mauzer, if I
14 -- if my recollection is correct, through your brother who was in the
15 Crisis Staff with Mauzer. Is that --
16 A. According to the information I had, the Crisis Staff that issued
17 orders and left written documents about that, and in the Crisis Staff that
18 that should be that way is something that was done, or even if you want,
19 ordered by Mauzer himself.
20 JUDGE ORIE: And your brother was a member of that Crisis Staff as
22 A. Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Did he remain on that Crisis Staff for how long?
24 A. Yes, he did. He remained there, but for how long I don't really
25 know. Until the establishment of the legal government. I can't tell you
1 exactly when that was but, yes, he did remain for some time. I think that
2 there were seven or eight of them, perhaps nine, I don't know how many in
3 the staff.
4 JUDGE ORIE: One second, please.
5 MR. STEWART: Excuse me, Your Honour. If I may say, the witness
6 didn't in fact himself say anything specific but the question that Your
7 Honour put a few moments ago when -- it's on the transcript, "... if my
8 recollection --" "You've told us that you heard that it was Mauzer, if I
9 -- if my recollection is correct, through your brother who was in the
10 Crisis Staff with Mauzer," and the thrust of Your Honour's questions is
11 that both the witness's brother and Mauzer were on the Crisis Staff. I
12 don't know whether that was what Your Honour intended to say.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what I was intended to say and at the
14 same time I'm now checking the transcript whether I may have made a
15 mistake. That's why I --
16 MR. STEWART: That's the question I'm raising, Your Honour, with
18 JUDGE ORIE: If you could assist me. If you would have exactly --
19 I'm approximately at page 23, 24 of yesterday's transcript.
20 MR. STEWART: I'm there or thereabouts, Your Honour. It could be
21 my transcript started at a different point. Does Your Honour have a
22 phrase that I could find?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What I have is -- and therefore I might not
24 have been fully certain. You testified yesterday, "He told me that he was
25 with them in this SDS committee."
1 MR. STEWART: Yes, I have that, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It was -- so it was not on the Crisis Staff but
3 on the committee. And then you said, "Mauzer became the master of
5 So please forget about whether they were on the Crisis Staff
6 together or not, but they were in relation with each other. They had --
7 they had contacts, and from what I understand they were on -- together on
8 a committee.
9 When you said "Mauzer became the master of Bijeljina," could you
10 explain to us a bit more in detail what you meant by that.
11 A. At the time he had a military formation under him, but I don't
12 know how he managed to get that military formation. So he had the only
13 armed personnel. He deployed them. He was the one who decided about
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So he had a military formation. He expressed
16 his wish to kill you, from what I understand. Did you ever ask your
17 brother why he worked with a man who took this position and had this bad
19 A. I don't think that they cooperated. I thought that they were in
20 some committee. I don't know if Mauzer was elected by somebody to the
21 committee or was he co-opted. I don't know. He probably attended all of
22 these meetings, and there was a debate conducted at the Assembly. When I
23 was discussed, it was said that I had inflicted a lot of harm or damage on
24 the Serbian people and that I was supposed to pay with my life.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer. You told us that you had
1 a meeting or meetings in Belgrade where you sought assistance. You were
2 talking about food, about clothing. When did you have that meeting in
3 Belgrade, do you remember?
4 A. This was after the 15th of May, 1992. It could have been in the
5 fall or in the summer of 1992. Winter was coming, and we needed to
6 provide for these people. So all of that was asked for. There were a lot
7 of pressures from the refugees on the local population who couldn't take
8 that any more. There was this collective accommodation. It was full.
9 There had to be a way to put these people up somewhere.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. With whom did you meet in Belgrade, do you
12 A. You mean of the Belgrade officials or those who had come from the
13 Tuzla municipality or from the Tuzla area?
14 JUDGE ORIE: The ones from Belgrade you met with.
15 A. I was in touch with the Government of Republika Srpska, with its
16 Ministry for Serbs Outside of Serbia, and with a minister of theirs, a
17 certain Mr. Djuretic, who then referred to me to the Red Cross of the
18 Republic of Serbia or Federal Yugoslavia, or Yugoslavia at the time, and
19 we received assistance from the Red Cross. I don't know where the Red
20 Cross received this aid from. I don't know.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers. Mr. Micic, I have no
22 further questions for you.
23 Did the questions of the Bench raise any need for further
25 MR. TIEGER: Just perhaps a question that may be clarified through
1 an understanding of the particular words.
2 Further cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:
3 Q. You had indicated to the Court earlier in your testimony and now
4 today in response to the Court's questions about your brother's membership
5 on the Crisis Staff. And then there was a subsequent -- or there was some
6 discussion about your brother and Mauzer working together, and you
7 indicated they were together on a committee. Sometimes those words, when
8 they're translated back to us, are the same in the B/C/S and different in
9 English, so I'd like to know if -- what committee your brother and Mauzer
10 worked on. Was that the Crisis Staff you referred to earlier?
11 A. Yes. I meant the Crisis Staff at that time, yes.
12 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honour, by way of a contextual document - I
13 don't have any particular questions about it - I don't believe it's in
14 evidence but I haven't had an ample -- a sufficient opportunity to check,
15 and that's the minutes of the 18th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly
16 which reflect, among other things, the verification of the establishment
17 of the Serbian municipality of Tuzla, and I can submit some copies of that
18 right now or I could do it at later time but I just wanted to indicate I
19 will be doing so if it's not already in evidence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. TIEGER: There appears be a bit of confusion. We think now it
22 is, but --
23 JUDGE ORIE: If you could do that at the next break so that we can
24 hear from you.
25 Mr. Stewart, any further questions?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
2 MR. STEWART: Sorry. Just to clarify something. Excuse me, just
3 to bring up the right day's transcript.
4 Further examination by Mr. Stewart:
5 Q. A few minutes ago, Mr. Micic, you said in answer to a question
6 from His Honour Judge Orie about meeting in Belgrade, you said, "I was in
7 touch with the government of Republika Srpska -" that's what it says on
8 the transcript - "with its Ministry for Serbs Outside of Serbia and with a
9 minister of theirs, a certain Mr. Djuretic." Just to clarify, when you
10 say you were in touch with the government of Republika Srpska, is that
11 what you meant to say?
12 A. It was a misunderstanding. The government of the Republic of
14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Since there are no further questions for you,
16 Mr. Micic, this concludes your testimony in this court. I would like to
17 thank you for coming to The Hague and for answering the questions that
18 were put to you by the parties and by the Bench. I wish you a safe trip
19 home again.
20 Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Micic out of the
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, I noticed the arrival of Mr. Josse.
25 Does that mean that he will take the next witness?
1 MR. STEWART: It does mean exactly that, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'll ask him if he's ready to call his next
4 MR. JOSSE: I am, thank you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now Madam Usher isn't there. Perhaps meanwhile we
6 can deal with the exhibits.
7 Mr. Registrar. I'll limit myself at this moment to this witness.
8 THE REGISTRAR: D114, Your Honours, the pages from David Owen's
9 book "Balkan Odyssey," undated, pages 246 and 247.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection? Mr. Tieger, any objections against
11 the undated pages of the B/C/S version? I take it apart from a
12 translation is not available at this moment, but apart from that. It's
13 mainly the two maps that were --
14 MR. TIEGER: Yes. No objection, Your Honour. Translation, I take
15 it, refers to the portions referred to and not anything else that wasn't
17 JUDGE ORIE: No. I think as a matter of fact that we will then
18 limit this evidence to the maps and what is under the maps written. So if
19 we could receive translations of the maps and the text under the maps. I
20 think it was 9 and 11 -- 9 and 10.
21 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour.
22 THE REGISTRAR: P1020, Your Honours, the television broadcast with
23 Mr. Micic and Mr. Maksimovic.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and the next, Mr. Registrar.
25 THE REGISTRAR: P1021, the footage on which Mr. Krajisnik
2 P1022, the intercepted conversation between Radovan Karadzic and
3 Momcilo Krajisnik, dated 18 September 1991.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections? Mr. Stewart.
5 MR. STEWART: No, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Then they are admitted into evidence. We have the
7 translations there. I take it, then, but please verify, that none of the
8 exhibits that was presented to the witness which appears on your list for
9 the tabs, that they're all already in evidence, otherwise I'd like to hear
10 from you, Mr. Tieger. Apart from, of course, the intercepts telephone
11 conversation is under 16. We have dealt with that one.
12 The letter from the Serbian municipality was already in evidence.
13 From what I understand, that was P653, I think it was. That was the
14 letter that appears under tab 18. 46th Assembly session was already in
15 evidence, and then the only one you will still verify is the contextual,
16 and that was the -- the Assembly session. Let me just check. Mr. Tieger,
17 if you could assist me, the last one you just mentioned.
18 MR. TIEGER: Yes, the minutes of the 18th session of the --
19 JUDGE ORIE: You'll verify that, and if it's not yet in evidence,
20 then you'll come back to it so that a number will be assigned to it.
21 MR. TIEGER: I think, apparently, I can do that now, and I'm told
22 a number needs to be assigned. I don't have 12 copies but I have maybe
23 half a dozen. That's -- if you want me to wait until I have the full set
24 -- I don't know we need a full set, actually.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's do it the following way: You give already the
1 one copy to the registrar so that we have the original, which will then be
2 admitted into evidence. It is there in B/C/S and in English, I take it.
3 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar, that would be?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Prosecution Exhibit
6 P1023 and the translation P1023.1, and that would be for the 18th session
7 Assembly minutes for -- dated the 11th August, 1992.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Stewart, you have had no opportunity yet to
9 look at the documents. Could we proceed on the basis that we admit it
10 into evidence, but if there's any objection, because I never heard any
11 objections against these Assembly minutes, but of course could be, that
12 you have until next Friday to -- to object against it and that otherwise
13 they are provisionally -- they are admitted, and that, Mr. Tieger, you
14 will distribute the copies even today after the next break.
15 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
16 MR. STEWART: Yes, that's fine, Your Honour. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then your next witness, Mr. Josse, would be
18 Mr. Pasic.
19 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No protective measures. No. Then, Madam
21 Usher, would you please escort Mr. Pasic into the courtroom.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE ORIE: May I -- may I just ask Mr. Pasic to leave for one
24 second the courtroom and we'll call you in in one or two minutes. Yes.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to turn into private session for one
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 19559-19564 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest to the parties that I confront the witness
2 with the Rule 90(E), but only the first line at this moment. That's
3 saying that if there's a bridge, that we would like the witness to see it
4 and to tell us that there is a bridge.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Pasic. I apologise for having to
7 ask you to leave the courtroom since we were dealing with a procedural
8 matter which took some time.
9 Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of Procedure and
10 Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the
11 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. May I invite you to
12 make that solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you by
13 Madam Usher.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Pasic.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 WITNESS: RADOMIR PASIC
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Before I'll invite counsel for the Defence to start
21 his examination, Mr. Pasic, I would like to inform you that if a question
22 is put to you of which you fear your answer might tend to incriminate
23 yourself, that you may address the Chamber and object to answer -- object
24 to answer such a question. Is that clear to you?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have come here to
1 tell the truth. Independently of what you have just said, I will say what
2 I know about the things that happened.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I just wanted to inform you that you have the
4 right not to incriminate yourself, and you may then address the Chamber.
5 Mr. Josse, please proceed.
6 Examined by Mr. Josse:
7 Q. Your name, as we've heard, is Radomir Pasic, and you're from the
8 municipality of Novi Grad; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. You in fact presently work at the employment office in Prijedor?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Before the first multi-party elections in Bosnia, you worked as a
13 legal officer at the Krajina Promet commercial company in Bosanski Novi?
14 A. I worked as a legal clerk in the company Krajina Promet Bosanski
16 Q. And so that we're all clear - I suspect we are anyway - Bosanski
17 Novi is now known as Novi Grad?
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. You were a member of the League of Communists, but you were not
20 involved in municipal affairs?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. You were a founder member of the SDS in Novi Grad?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But in fact it wasn't until after the war that you were on the
25 Main Board of that party?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. Following the multi-party elections, on the 25th of December of
3 1990 you became president of the Municipal Assembly of your municipality?
4 A. Yes. I became the president of the Municipal Assembly of Bosanski
6 Q. There was a significant majority of Serbs within the municipality,
7 and the SDS had a majority in the Municipal Assembly; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Nonetheless, the SDS agreed to enter into a power-sharing
10 agreement with the SDA minority?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Dealing with the senior jobs within the municipality, the
13 president of the Executive Committee was also from the SDS, someone called
14 Nikola Omazic?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Who was the vice-president of the Municipal Assembly, please?
17 A. The president of the Municipal Assembly was Sabina Muhamedagic, a
18 lady, on behalf of the SDS party.
19 Q. You just said the president of the Municipal Assembly. That
20 wasn't the vice-president -- or she was the vice-president, wasn't she?
21 A. Vice-president. If I said president, it was a slip of the tongue.
22 I meant vice-president. The vice-president of the Municipal Assembly was
23 Sabina Muhamedagic.
24 Q. And she was a member of the SDA?
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. And the SDA also were awarded with the vice-presidency of the
2 Executive Committee?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And the name of the occupant of that office was what, please?
5 A. Nijaz Kapetanovic. I think his surname was Kapetanovic. Nijaz
6 was his first name, and I think Kapetanovic was his surname.
7 Q. And I think SDA officials were -- became head of the tax
8 department and also the property board of the municipality.
9 A. Yes. That's right.
10 Q. Was any attempt made by the new administration to change officials
11 in general?
12 A. I didn't understand the question.
13 Q. There were obviously other job in the municipal administration,
14 particularly non-political jobs. Did the people who had -- was there any
15 attempt made to change the holders of those particular jobs to suit one or
16 other ethnic group, for example?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, may I take it that your question is about
18 after the elections?
19 MR. JOSSE: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Of course that's not clear in time.
21 MR. JOSSE: Sorry.
22 JUDGE ORIE: So whether any such effort to change those positions
23 were made after the elections and after the appointment of the new
24 political officers, or at least Municipal Assembly president,
25 vice-president, et cetera.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you mean the period after the
2 party elections, when it came to the representatives of the SDA party,
3 there were no changes, if I understood your question correctly.
4 MR. JOSSE:
5 Q. What about so far as the commander of the public security station?
6 What happened there?
7 A. Well, the Municipal Assembly didn't have that function to elect or
8 re-elect, because the chiefs of the police stations were there by virtue
9 of office and chief of the police stations generally. The competence and
10 authority of that was held, invested in the person of the minister of the
11 interior, and at that time the minister of the interior of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina was a man called Alija Delimustafic, and he effected
13 changes but only for the commander of that police. Although previously
14 the commander's name was Savic, I think. I don't know the first name, but
15 he was a Bosniak, a Muslim, and he appointed somebody by the name of
16 Azemir Ceric, who was a representative of the SDA party.
17 Now, the minister did not change the chief. The man who was there
18 before stayed on. His name was Micevic. Or, rather, his surname was
19 Micevic. I forget his first name.
20 Q. Djuro Micevic; right?
21 A. Djuro. Correct, that's it.
22 Q. The power-sharing agreement that you had all entered into, did
23 that work at first properly?
24 A. Yes, it did.
25 Q. Can you give any illustrations of it working or not working in the
1 first part of 1991, for example?
2 A. Well, when I was appointed president of the Municipal Assembly for
3 Novi Grad, I was elected by the deputies of the Municipal Assembly and
4 there were representatives of the SDA party there too. So that means that
5 in addition to the deputies in the Municipal Assembly of the Serbian
6 Democratic Party you had deputies from the SDA party voting as well. Now,
7 the power -- the power and authority functioned normally. There were
8 decisions that were taken which came under the competence of the
9 municipality itself, or the Municipal Assembly, so there were no special
10 problems in that respect, if that's what you meant. If you meant the SDA
11 deputies or the SDS deputies. If I've understood your question correctly
13 Q. Yes. Let's move on, then, if we may. What about the Croatian
14 war? Your municipality, right on the border with Croatia; is that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what effect, if any, did the war in Croatia in 1991 have on
18 Bosanski Novi?
19 A. Well, unfortunately, it did have an effect. It would be a very
20 good thing if we could take a look at the map now to see where Bosanski
21 Novi is located - Novi Grad as it is called now - that it is at the very
22 border between Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia, and that's a natural
23 border, with the River Una running along it, and that in the country that
24 all of us lived in together formerly there were no borders between the
25 republics except administrative ones. There were no border crossings or
1 anything of that kind at that time.
2 The war that happened happened first of all in Slovenia, and then
3 it spilt over into Croatia, and unfortunately, it had its effect and was
4 reflected on Novi Grad itself with respect to the war going on in the
5 Republic of Croatia, because as I say, we were only divided by the River
6 Una, and across the river is where that unfortunate war was taking place
7 and the horrific things taking place as do in every war. And you could
8 feel that in Bosanski Novi, Novi Grad itself. You could feel the tension.
9 You could feel the fear and anxiety and the general mood of war, and we
10 could feel it coming closer to us.
11 MR. JOSSE: Perhaps we could put this map on the ELMO, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We could do that. It's not a map which is in
13 evidence from what I could see in the distance.
14 MR. JOSSE: No, it's not.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I take it if it's just for our orientation, although
16 of course the Chamber has still it clearly in its mind. But we could put
17 it on the ELMO so that we could --
18 MR. JOSSE: Yes. This map has been marked to a limited extent, in
19 fact, by the witness, but I don't think that's going to affect things.
20 JUDGE ORIE: What I then suggest is that we take the map of --
21 which is in evidence of Bosanski Novi and to put that on the ELMO then.
22 But I've forgotten which one -- it's the one --
23 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, there is a map 527, which is --
24 JUDGE ORIE: It's 527, you say. I didn't have that in my mind,
25 but could that be put on the ELMO and then the municipality of -- I see
1 already two copies now handled. The one who is first. You're first.
2 MR. JOSSE: I am first --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. JOSSE: Use this one.
5 JUDGE ORIE: It's directly the municipality which can be --
6 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if the usher would turn to page 2 of
7 exhibit, there is a --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we get the other view, but I -- no. The
9 location of Bosanski Novi in Bosnia is well known to the Chamber by now.
10 MR. JOSSE: Yes, fine.
11 Q. There was a particular incident of concern in your municipality in
12 1991; is that correct? Yes or no.
13 A. Unfortunately, yes.
14 Q. Where did that happen? Could you name the place, please.
15 A. Well, that happened precisely in 1991. I can't recall the exact
16 day, but it was in August or September of 1991, and the place was
17 Kostajnica. It's now a separate municipality, but at the time it was part
18 of the Novi Grad municipality, and what happened was unfortunately --
19 Q. Just before we get there, I think we see it at the top of the map,
20 at the very north. Is that right?
21 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. Tell us, Mr. Pasic, what happened, please.
23 A. Well, as you can see on the map, on my left-hand side, if I am
24 looking at this correctly, you have the Republic of Croatia. So in the
25 northern part of the Novi Grad municipality there's a place called
1 Kostajnica. And let me repeat this: Sometime in August or September, I
2 can't remember the exact time, there was bombing or, rather, from some
3 light weaponry from Croatian Kostajnica. There was shooting coming into
4 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the army and the police of the
5 Republic of Croatia, and the Croatian National Guards Corps, as they were
6 called, the ZNG, were active there. They were throwing bombs at
7 Kostajnica, and on that occasion five civilians were killed. Let me
8 repeat: That was sometime in August or September of 1991.
9 Q. And what, if anything, did the municipality do about this?
10 A. Unfortunately, our authority was very narrow and we were not able
11 to act in those terms. It was not in the competence of the municipality.
12 It could not act in that military aspect. And as president of the
13 Municipal Assembly, I asked that we attempt to preserve the integrity of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina because this was an attack on Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I
15 was still asking the authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina to do something
16 to try to prevent these unfortunate events so that innocents would not
17 lose their lives.
18 Q. And as a direct result of this incident you received a personal
19 telephone call from Mr. Izetbegovic; is that correct?
20 A. Yes, that's correct. Then president of what was then called the
21 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which was headed by its president
22 Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, he called me and asked me -- it was an afternoon
23 conversation at my home number -- he asked me what happened, and I
24 explained to him that unrest had broken out in the territory of the
25 Republic of Croatia, and that because of that the border was violated of
1 the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina because their official police
2 forces and the ZNG fired at the territory of Kostajnica, the municipality
3 of Novi Grad, and the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina from their
4 territory, the territory of the Republic of Croatia. I repeat that on the
5 occasion five civilians were killed.
6 Mr. Izetbegovic heard me out. It was my impression, my subjective
7 impression that he accepted that coldly. I requested that something
8 really be done and that an attempt be made to protect the border. I think
9 that the outcome of that conversation - that conversation because there
10 were other conversations, other contacts - but I think that the outcome of
11 that conversation was that a Special Police Unit was sent to the Novi Grad
12 municipality and for a while they were in that territory, that area I'm
13 talking about.
14 I note that the composition of that force was ethnically mixed.
15 There were Croat, Serb, and Bosniak members of that force.
16 Q. You say there were other conversations. Is this other
17 conversations with Mr. Izetbegovic that you are referring to?
18 A. I think that there was perhaps another conversation. I'm not
19 quite sure. A lot of time has passed since then, but I think that there
20 was another conversation. I couldn't be certain about it, but I think
21 that it also referred to this matter that I just briefly tried to explain
22 to you.
23 Q. Now, as this situation with the Croatian war developed, what
24 impact, if any, did it have on Serb-Muslim relationships within your
1 A. Unfortunately, the Novi Grad municipality could not be kept
2 isolated from all of those horrors. As I said, all of the events in the
3 area and in Croatia were reflected in our municipality. I think that we
4 were the first municipality in Bosnia-Herzegovina - and I repeat this was
5 in 1991 - who felt all of this. I think that the war in Bosnia and
6 Herzegovina actually broke out in April or March 1991. So that the Novi
7 Grad municipality sensed all of these horrors much, much earlier than the
8 other municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 Unfortunately, the horrors of war could be felt by the ordinary
10 people. They sensed fear and tension. In a way, people withdrew. There
11 was distrust between the ethnic groups. There was suspicions, fears, and
12 all of this affected also what was going on in the Republic of Croatia
13 earlier, and I think that is well known what was going on there.
14 Q. Any difficulties with JNA and TO call-ups?
15 A. Yugoslavia still existed then, and the Yugoslav People's Army
16 officially was still in existence. They had their Secretariats for
17 National Defence in the municipalities. They operated independently from
18 the Assembly organs in municipalities, but I know that they did conduct
19 mobilisations in 1991, during the war in Croatia. It's no secret that
20 mostly Serbs responded to that particular call-up.
21 Q. Were there any paramilitary difficulties caused by the Croatian
23 A. Yes, regrettably.
24 Q. Can you tell us about those, please.
25 A. With the events in Croatia, as I have already said, there were no
1 official borders. There was no official division between Croatia and
2 Bosnia and Herzegovina. As the war was going on on the other side of the
3 Una River in Croatia, it could happen that someone crossed the republican
4 border crossing to cross over where there were no roads. Perhaps they
5 could happen to cross over with a rifle and cause an incident, regardless
6 of whether the organs of authority knew about that or not. There were
7 certain attempts at criminal offences. This did happen.
8 As you can see on the map, this is a very long area that the
9 municipality occupies, and you can see the map, it's still in front you.
10 On the left side, this long line is actually the border with the Republic
11 of Croatia, so this entire area needed to be physically secured in order
12 to prevent these possible uncontrolled events, but it was difficult to
13 physically secure this. The civilian police at the time simply did not
14 have the means, didn't have the personnel to prevent something like that
15 from happening.
16 Of course, they did make an attempt to do that, and they were
17 deployed at checkpoints on these roads, but things were going on outside
18 of those checkpoints, outside of the roads. Certain small groups or
19 individuals were creating problems to the municipal authorities.
20 Q. Were the paramilitary groups picking on any particular ethnic
22 A. Which period are you thinking of? National -- I mean ethnic
23 groups. I didn't understand you.
24 Q. In 1991, as a result of the Croatian war.
25 A. Let me just say that there is a no colour, race, or ethnic group
1 as far as crime is concerned, and this was happening in the municipality
2 of Bosanski Novi, Novi Grad. If we're thinking of these small groups,
3 paramilitary formations, if I can call them like that, people who are able
4 to carry a soldier's rifle and carry out a certain criminal act or an
5 offence, they were not interested in colour, ethnic groups or political
6 affiliations. There were problems like that, and if -- if that means
7 anything to you, there was an incident that happened, and it unfortunately
8 ended with a murder at the border crossing between Novi Grad municipality
9 and Dvor na Uni. Arriving from the Dvor na Uni municipality, one of those
10 small groups, or a person from such a small group, he had a nickname. His
11 name was Titin, his last name was Betic, he was an ethnic Serb, and when
12 the police responded - and the police was still of mixed composition with
13 the police officers being both of Serb, Croat, and Bosniak ethnicity -
14 this person did not stop. He even tried at the checkpoint, according to
15 the stories and the report of the police station, I wasn't an eyewitness
16 I'm just saying what I heard, he wanted to react by using his rifle and
17 they killed a man in self-defence.
18 I'm just giving this as an unfortunate incident which had such an
19 ending. And these police members from the mixed police forces had to
20 react because their lives were in danger. This was sometime in 1991,
21 sometime in the summer, I cannot really tell you exactly when. Perhaps
22 this was even recorded in some public security station. This case was
23 probably recorded. It is a drastic example that I recall. Unfortunately,
24 there are more such examples where the public security station of Novi
25 Grad had problems with these small groups or individuals who,
1 unfortunately, would come, for the most part, from the direction of
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, the tape will not allow us to continue
4 until 7.00, so therefore I would like to have a break, but in view of the
5 breaks we had already, the shortest break possible. We will resume at 20
6 minutes past six.
7 --- Recess taken at 6.03 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 6.23 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, you may proceed.
10 MR. JOSSE:
11 Q. I'd like to continue with exactly what I was asking you before the
12 break. Where were these paramilitary formations coming from?
13 A. For the most part they came, as I said, from the Republic of
14 Croatia because of the operations which were already under way in the
15 Republic of Croatia, combat operations that were going on there.
16 Q. What effect, if any, did the formation of the Serb Krajina
17 Republic have on the situation?
18 A. Well, I cannot really give a political assessment in view of my
19 function as the president of the Municipal Assembly of the municipality of
20 Novi Grad. I really am not competent to give an assessment on any major
21 political question, but I can note that in that area of Croatia there was
22 a Serb majority population. I'm talking about the municipalities of Dvor,
23 Kostajnica, and some other municipalities which were part of the Republic
24 of Serbian Krajina at the time.
25 I repeat, there were no firm boundaries or borders such as those
1 between sovereign states that are known in the world.
2 Q. You've talked about lawlessness setting in as a result. You've
3 also talked about the inability of the municipal authorities to deal with
4 this lawlessness. Did you receive any insults at this time?
5 A. That is, unfortunately, true if you're thinking about the
6 lawlessness by certain individuals and small groups which committed
7 offences. Some unpleasant things happened to me as well, regardless of
8 the fact that I am an ethnic Serb. Those individuals subjected me to some
9 unpleasant things as president of the municipality of Novi Grad. I had an
10 uncomfortable situation once even when a group, not a formation but a
11 group of people who were mobilised in the Republic of Croatia were unhappy
12 with their status and they expressed their dissatisfaction, thinking that
13 I could help them in some kind of financial aspect. Those people were not
14 educated but they also didn't know that it was not in my competence to
15 help in any way those who were at the time mobilised in the JNA. This was
16 something uncomfortable for me. I wasn't physically mistreated, but it
17 was more on a psychological basis that this abuse manifested itself.
18 Q. Prior to the outbreak of violence in May of 1992 in Bosanski Novi,
19 how had the situation deteriorated in the beginning of 1992? So prior to
20 the start of the war, in effect, is what I'm asking you.
21 A. There were a certain degree of tension both on the Serb and the
22 Muslim side. I'm thinking of ordinary people. There was a distrust.
23 There was a kind of state created where people really couldn't trust each
24 other. They felt insecure.
25 The war was going on in Croatia, and in a way volunteers on the
1 Muslim side would join the Croatian army. On the other hand, we had
2 mobilised Serbs in the then Yugoslav People's Army, and the arrival of
3 both of these people, volunteers from the Muslim Bosniak side and those
4 Serbs who were mobilised in the JNA, when they came on leave, there was
5 tension between those people and tensions were created, and this could be
6 sensed before the war broke out in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
7 If I may add something else: Serb and Muslim villagers lived in a
8 kind of psychosis, in fear. There were night guard services organised
9 both in Serb and in Muslim villages. And I'm saying this because both
10 Serbs and Muslims lived in the territory of the municipality of Novi Grad
11 while there was a very small percentage of Croats living in the
12 municipality; under 1 per cent.
13 Q. What about the referendum in regard to independence? Did that
14 have any adverse effect?
15 A. I think that when the war started in Croatia -- or actually in
16 Slovenia, then in Croatia, the majority, and I'm thinking of the Serbs, in
17 the territory of Yugoslavia wanted to remain in some kind of common state
18 in which Muslims, Croats, and Serbs would live together. And this,
19 according to what was published in the media, the position of most people,
20 and I'm thinking of ordinary people and in ordinary conversations, it was
21 the desire of Serbs to remain in a common land where both Serbs, Muslims,
22 and Croats would live.
23 Then there was a referendum which was prompted by the SDA party,
24 the Bosniak party. A referendum was held on the independence of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Of course, this was a unilateral decision by the SDA,
1 and in a way it created a certain unease amongst the Serbs in view of the
2 fact that the Serbs are a constitutive people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, just
3 as Muslim, Bosniaks, and Croats are.
4 As far as I know, I know that certain political authorities, or
5 certain people involved in politics on behalf of the Serbian people, were
6 opposed to this, and they were not in favour of such a secession and the
7 splitting of Bosnia-Herzegovina without the agreement of the Serbian
8 people. This referendum had a negative effect, and it made the situation
9 worse, a situation that was already quite heated, and this was like
10 pouring more oil onto the flame, and this seemed to fan the flames of war
11 which was already spreading to Bosnia and Herzegovina.
12 Q. Was a Crisis Staff formed in your municipality?
13 A. The Crisis Staff in the municipality of Novi Grad was formed, but
14 it didn't have a major role of the kind that I learned about later that
15 Crisis Staffs had in other municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina. If you
16 meant the Crisis Staff in the Municipal Assembly, if I understood your
17 question properly.
18 Q. Yes. And following on from that, when was it formed?
19 A. I really couldn't say what day it was exactly. I think it was in
20 mid-April 1992.
21 Q. And did it do anything prior to the outbreak of the war in the
23 A. It was formed in mid-April, as I said, and it -- well, there was
24 no need for it to be formed earlier, because there were official
25 institutions still. People worked in the Municipal Assembly, in the
1 Assembly -- and also in the Executive Board, and they both functioned. So
2 there was no need for a Crisis Staff to be formed earlier.
3 Q. Up to what time did all parties continue to attend the Municipal
5 A. All the parties throughout that period, the period since the
6 multi-party elections and once they formed the authorities together after
7 the Serb party received 60 per cent and the SDA received about 30 per cent
8 of the vote and the other parties shared the rest amongst them, the SDP
9 and the Reformist Party of Ante Markovic, so all of these parties
10 participated in all the Municipal Assembly sessions in Novi Grad.
11 Q. Let me ask the same question a slightly different way. When did
12 the SDA representatives cease participating in the Municipal Assembly, if
13 you can remember?
14 A. Once certain incidents occurred and once armed conflicts also
15 erupted in the municipality, it was no longer possible to schedule
16 Municipal Assembly sessions, and that is when the Crisis Staff began to
17 function, which actually in that period substituted for the Municipal
19 Q. The first clash in the municipality occurred on the 10th/11th of
20 May of 1992. Is that your recollection?
21 A. Yes, I remember that.
22 Q. There was an incident in the Blagaj village; correct?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. What happened, please?
25 A. That night, on the night between the 10th and 11th of May, 1992,
1 the military police of the TO staff, while they were touring the area,
2 were going from Novi Grad in the direction of Prijedor. At some seven or
3 eight kilometres from Novi Grad there is the village of Blagaj, which is
4 almost 100 per cent inhabited by Muslim Bosniaks, and an incident
5 occurred. As the military police patrol was passing by, unidentified
6 persons fired at their vehicle and lightly wounded two police officers.
7 From that point on, the tension which had still not resulted in
8 anything happening actually then erupted, and the military or the armed
9 conflict actually escalated from that point on in that area.
10 Q. How did you get to hear of the incident that you have just
12 A. Well, that night I slept in my own home, which is, as you go
13 towards Kostajnica, on the opposite direction -- in the opposite direction
14 geographically, and the Territorial Defence phoned me up and told me that
15 the incident had taken place in the village of Blagaj, and that on that
16 occasion two military policemen were involved and that it was night-time.
17 It was 11.00 or 12.00 at night, late at night. And of course I got up and
18 went to the staff headquarters, the Territorial Defence Staff
19 headquarters, which is about ten kilometres away from my own home, in the
20 town itself.
21 When I arrived, I called the president of the SDA party, Izet
22 Muhamedagic, to come so we could see what we could do together to deal
23 with the situation that had arisen and to try and calm tensions and to try
24 and stop the shooting and to prevent it from escalating and spreading.
25 And Mr. Muhamedagic, the president of the SDA, did arrive when I called
1 him, and we decided at the headquarters there of the Territorial Defence
2 to try and draft a joint text. I and Mr. Muhamedagic read it out at the
3 opening of the Novi -- local radio, and we tried to lessen the tensions,
4 to calm the mood down, to prevail upon both sides, and to try and settle
5 the situation peacefully. And I have to say that Mr. Muhamedagic, his
6 conduct was very proper, and he did appeal to the members of the SDA party
7 and to everybody else, all the other Bosniaks in Novi Grad, to refrain
8 from any excessive behaviour, any shooting or anything else which could
9 make the situation in the municipality worse.
10 I delivered a similar speech. As president of the Municipal
11 Assembly, I prevailed upon the public too. I asked the Serb population
12 not to react to provocations of this kind and that it would be the regular
13 law enforcement organs, the public security station and the Territorial
14 Defence Staff would deal with the situation and try and find a solution to
15 it peacefully.
16 Q. Did the violence escalate?
17 A. Well, that night the situation did actually calm down, and we felt
18 that we would be successful in prevailing upon the population over the
19 radio, our appeals over the radio, my own and Mr. Muhamed Agic's, to keep
20 calm. But on the second day, and I think that would be the 11th of May,
21 sometime in the afternoon there was shooting again. I can't say now what
22 direction the shooting came from and who fired first, who started the
23 shooting first. That would be unrealistic of me now. But anyway, the
24 shooting did start up again in the afternoon of the 11th of May, and it
25 went on into that second night.
1 Q. And when, if at all, was the situation brought under control?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau would like to ask a question.
3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Josse. I want to
4 stay within the time line of these events.
5 Regarding the Crisis Staff, who took the initiative, and for what
6 reason exactly, to set up the Crisis Staff? Were instructions received
7 from the outside? How did it happen exactly? What do you know about
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the function, as I understood
10 it, of the Crisis Staff was to endeavour to place under control or to be a
11 link between the Territorial Defence Staff and the public security station
12 and the other municipal organs who were independent to a certain extent or
13 autonomous. So the function of the Crisis Staff was to attempt -- and in
14 fact, the people in the Crisis Staff, by virtue of their position - such
15 as the chief of the public security station, the commander of the TO, the
16 secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence, members of the
17 Executive Board, the president of the Municipal Assembly - all these
18 people, by virtue of their post and function, were members of the Crisis
19 Staff as well. So that when the situation was heated, when tensions were
20 high, as I've already said I'm not quite sure of the date but I think it
21 was in mid-April, that the Crisis Staff held, well, let's say its first
22 meeting which was of an informative nature, to inform the people of the
24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] My question was who took the
25 initiative of creating, of establishing the Crisis Staff?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand your question.
2 How do you mean "initiative"?
3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Who decided that the Crisis Staff
4 was to be established?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the decision -- it was like
6 this: The Crisis Staff, I think we received some instructions and
7 guidelines. I can't remember when, at what time in particular, but there
8 were certain instructions that came from, I think, the party. I think
9 that's it. The Serbian Democratic Party. And let me repeat: The
10 situation was highly tense, and the unrest had already started. Not only
11 in Novi Grad but on the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina itself. The war
12 had already started in Sarajevo in that month of April. And in Bosanski
13 Brod, for example, there was war going on. There was shooting. There
14 were casualties. They were killed. So we tried to prevent all this, to
15 stop it from happening in our part. So that's when the Crisis Staff
16 started working and performing the function that it in fact did perform.
17 I don't know if I've explained the situation, but that's how I
18 understood your question and the initiative that you asked about. I think
19 it came from the Serbian Democratic Party.
20 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 MR. JOSSE: Perhaps we can help, Your Honour, this way: Could the
22 exhibits bundle be handed out, please. Your Honours, 1 in that bundle is
23 a report on the work of the Bosanski Novi Municipal Crisis Staff. It's
24 undated. It's signed by this witness.
25 Could I mention in passing, the Court should now have, separately,
1 a translation which is described as unrevised. I am grateful to my
2 learned friend Mr. Harmon. The position is this: That we did submit this
3 document just over a week ago to the CLSS. No translation had been
4 forthcoming. I served the document on him later, I'm bound to say, a few
5 days ago, and just prior to Mr. Pasic commencing his evidence, Mr. Harmon
6 informed me that he had obtained, through his translators, this unrevised
7 translation, and that's clearly going to make our life very much easier.
8 So could I say I'm grateful to my learned friend.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then, Mr. Josse, I take it that where the
10 translation says it's Mr. Panic it's due to the bad quality of page 7 that
11 it's not --
12 MR. JOSSE: I hadn't spotted that, Your Honour, but perhaps --
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- you asked whether --
14 MR. JOSSE: We should check that.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- if everything would be perfectly clear.
16 MR. JOSSE: You have got tab 1 there, Mr. Pasic. It's a report on
17 the work of the Municipal -- Crisis Staff of the Municipality of Bosanski
18 Novi. Could you turn to the last page, please. In block capitals at the
19 very bottom of page 7, we see three words. What do those three words say?
20 A. It says, "President of the Crisis Staff."
21 Q. And what do the two words at the very bottom of the page say?
22 A. It says "Radomir Pasic" underneath that.
23 Q. And in fact I hadn't asked you this question previously, and I
24 should have done: It's right that you became the president of the Crisis
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, I was going to deal with this document at a later stage, but
3 it's convenient to begin to deal with it now. It doesn't appear to be
4 dated. Are you able to help us as to when you compiled this report?
5 A. Well, I would really have to read through this document in order
6 to be able to see whether it is what it says it is, and at the end here --
7 well, unfortunately, there's no signature of mine. It says president of
8 the Crisis Staff, Radomir Pasic. I don't know, perhaps it's just my copy.
9 There are a lot of pages and I wouldn't like to hazard an answer, just
10 looking at it at first glance like that, to say what it is. Quite
11 possibly it's all correct, but until I read through it, I wouldn't be able
12 to give you a valid answer.
13 Q. Two things on that. First of all, this may be my fault, but I
14 thought you had had an opportunity to read it before you commenced your
15 evidence. If the answer to that is -- I'm asking that as a matter of
16 information. I don't think anyone is going to hold it against you one
17 away or another. Had you had an opportunity to read it in the last two
18 days since you've arrived in The Hague?
19 A. The report on the work of the Crisis Staff of the Municipality of
20 Bosanski Novi, as it says here, really did exist. The report was tabled
21 to the Municipal Assembly, but really --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, a quite simple question is put to you,
23 whether you had an opportunity to read it prior to coming to this court
24 when you arrived in The Hague.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The document, the report on the work
1 of the Crisis Staff, I have read, yes, but I don't know whether that's
2 this, whether it's this here. If that is indeed that --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Who gave it to you to read?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The report on the work of the Crisis
5 Staff? Well, it still exists. It exists now in the municipality of Novi
7 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please answer the questions. You said you
8 did read the document. Who gave that document to you?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Whether it's this document, you put some doubt on
11 that. You said that you have read a document. Same title, the document
12 you read?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I just want to say or, rather,
14 I'm only saying is this the same document that I received from --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, from whom did you receive the document that you
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the Defence. From the Defence.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I take it that you do not present any
19 other documents to the Court at this moment and to the witness that -- and
20 so please proceed.
21 Mr. Josse says that the document that was given to the Defence is
22 the same document as the Court and you have in front of you at this
23 moment. Please proceed.
24 MR. JOSSE: The second point I was going to make is perhaps -- I'm
25 going to ask a few questions about it now, but perhaps the witness can
1 take it away with him, because I think he may have another copy, and read
2 it overnight at any rate.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that we could produce a copy,
4 although you're the one who --
5 MR. JOSSE: I think we --
6 JUDGE ORIE: The matter is then --
7 MR. JOSSE: -- we can provide the copy if we're allowed to have
8 contact via the Victim and Witness service to do that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it, Mr. Harmon, there are no objections
10 to that.
11 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
13 MR. JOSSE:
14 Q. Now, Mr. Pasic, doing the best that you can, do you recall when
15 this report was prepared? If you don't remember, say so. I ask that
16 because it's undated.
17 A. Yes. There's no date here. I assume that it was at the first
18 session of the Municipal Assembly that was held after these events, and I
19 think that was sometime in mid-June, although I can't be quite sure about
20 that. I can't remember the day, but I think it was in June. In fact, you
21 can see on the basis of what it says here, the chronological order of
22 events, what was recorded, the events recorded, and I think that that
23 would be the right date when this report on the work of the Crisis Staff
24 was written.
25 There was a bit of a misunderstanding. I didn't mean to create
1 one, but all I wanted to do was confirm or, rather, to explain to you that
2 that was precisely the report that I had before me.
3 Q. Did you personally write this report?
4 A. Not I personally, no.
5 Q. Well, explain to us the process of its production, bearing in mind
6 it purports to bear your name.
7 A. How this report came into being, you mean?
8 Q. Yes. The mechanics of it, please.
9 A. Well, as I've already said, I assume it was sometime in mid-June
10 1992 when this report was written, so that's a period of --
11 JUDGE ORIE: May I stop you there. Could you please look at the
12 last page, page 7. Approximately in the middle of the page. Reference is
13 made to a date in July, or doesn't it make reference to a time at 1800
14 hours at the 2nd of July, or is that a mistake in the translation?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we're looking at the same thing,
16 it says here 1/2. I think it says June, the sixth month.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If you would look at the last portion of the next
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I take a moment to read through
20 it, just a brief moment, just that particular paragraph?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Approximately the middle of the page. Before we have
22 a blank line, two lines above that.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It says here, "At the latest
24 by 0800 hours on the 2nd of June to establish control in the town," in the
25 sense of public law and order and security in the town. And that referred
1 to -- let me just read.
2 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... June.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would say this was June. It's
4 not a very good copy, but I think it's June.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The sixth month.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- a translation problem. You noticed that. The
8 translation says July and --
9 DEFENCE COUNSEL: I'm grateful to Your Honour, yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could -- because if I compare the
11 reference to June in this same typewriting machine -- let me not speculate
12 on that, but it seems that the Cyrillic N and the Cyrillic L are quite
13 different, but let's not speculate on that. You're invited to further
14 explore that matter. I hope it's not a courtesy by Mr. Harmon that
15 created the problem, the translation being unrevised.
16 MR. JOSSE: It would ill behoove me to even suggest any form of
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, it is 7.00 already. Perhaps we continue
19 with the document tomorrow. Then the witness will have had an opportunity
20 to read the document.
21 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Your Honour, I'm anxious -- I'll do it in the
22 morning to continue with Judge Hanoteau's questions and deal with the
23 first paragraph of that document, but I'm happy to do that at 9.00
24 tomorrow morning.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then perhaps the witness has a copy of the
1 document. That's the whole of the bundle at this moment, isn't it?
2 MR. JOSSE: We're having one made at this very moment.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It has been made.
4 MR. JOSSE: It's being made at this very moment.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I see even it's brought in, although --
6 Mr. Pasic, we'll finish for today. You'll be provided now with a
7 copy of the B/C/S version. Could you please return the bundle of
8 documents to Madam Usher so that it will be given to you, if need be,
9 tomorrow again.
10 Madam Usher.
11 And you're invited to read over the copy of the documents.
12 Mr. Pasic, I'd like to instruct you not to speak with anyone about the
13 testimony you have given until now and you're still about to give during
14 the days to come. I would like to see you back in this same courtroom
15 tomorrow morning at 9.00.
16 We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 15th day
19 of December, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.