Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19772

1 Monday, 16 January 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, and the best wishes from the Chamber to

6 everyone for the year to come.

7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Harmon, are you ready to continue the

11 cross-examination of Mr. Pasic?

12 MR. HARMON: Good morning, Your Honours. Yes, I am.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Pasic.

14 [The witness entered court]


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Pasic. Please be seated.

18 Mr. Pasic, first of all I would like to extend the wishes for 2006

19 from the Chamber to you as well. Best wishes. And I'd like to remind you

20 that you are still bound by the solemn declaration that you have given at

21 the beginning of your testimony. Even if that was in 2005, it's still

22 binding in 2006 as well.

23 Mr. Harmon, you may proceed.

24 MR. HARMON: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Harmon [Continued]

Page 19773

1 Q. Good morning, Mr. Pasic.

2 A. Good morning.

3 Q. Mr. Pasic, when we concluded your examination at the last session,

4 we were discussing the expulsion of Muslims from the villages in the Japra

5 valley that occurred on the 23rd and the 24th of May 1992, those villagers

6 finding themselves sequestered in the village of Blagaj. According to the

7 Defence Exhibit, D115, particularly page 9 of this exhibit in the English

8 translation, negotiations regarding the status of the Muslim population

9 were held with the organs of the ARK and the government of the Serb

10 Republic of Krajina and UNPROFOR. And in respect of those negotiations

11 you could only recall a single conversation that you had with

12 Mr. Kupresanin.

13 According to this Defence Exhibit 115 at page 10, the ARK

14 government and the government of the Serb Republic were asked to determine

15 a decisive stand on the status of the Muslims in Blagaj, and the answer

16 that was given was that it was possible that they could be exchanged for

17 Serbs captured elsewhere in Bosnia. You were unable in your evidence to

18 identify persons in the government of the Serb Republic with whom you had

19 discussions. The report concludes in respect of the people in Blagaj that

20 "appropriate measures were taken to allow the people to move out in the

21 direction of Banja Luka, which was done on the 8th of June."

22 Now, in fact, Mr. Pasic, the public views of the leaders, the

23 Bosnian Serb leaders in the ARK, including Mr. Kupresanin, was that

24 Muslims should be expelled from the area. Isn't that the case?

25 A. That's rather a long question, but what you said at the end, I

Page 19774

1 have understood. Although that was not the case, that was not the

2 position, and if you read the report carefully about the work of the

3 Crisis Staff, which we had here, it said there that the possibility was

4 just reviewed of a possible exchange. The possibility was looked into but

5 the negotiations hadn't been completed, nor did anybody take a final

6 decision on the matter. And as the war had flared up in the whole of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time, I consider that possibility - and you

8 only mentioned a portion of the possibility - as I say, the possibility

9 was discussed, but it wasn't definitely adopted or --

10 Q. The question I asked you was the public views of the ARK leaders

11 was that the Muslims should be expelled. That was the public position

12 taken by the leaders of the ARK, including Mr. Kupresanin. Are you aware

13 of that?

14 A. No. I'm not aware of that. I don't know that that was a public

15 view, and I'm not aware of that fact.

16 MR. HARMON: If we could turn, Your Honours, to tab 16. This is a

17 Prosecution Exhibit P187, and if that could be -- a copy of that could be

18 provided to Mr. Pasic. I'm directing Your Honours' attention -- I will

19 direct Your Honours' attention to subpart 5 on page 2 of the English

20 translation.

21 Q. Mr. Pasic, for the record, the document that you will be shown,

22 Prosecution Exhibit 187, is a military secret, a confidential report of

23 the 1st Krajina Corps command, dated the 31st of May 1992. It is a

24 regular combat report, and it was signed by General -- the commander of

25 the 1st Krajina Corps, Major General Momir Talic, and if I can direct your

Page 19775

1 attention to page 5 -- to subpart 5 in the B/C/S, which is found with --

2 on page 2, I'm going to read a portion of this to you.

3 "After the actions in Kozarac, Kljuc, and Sanski Most, some

4 conscripts of Muslim nationality have asked to be released from the units.

5 They express their dissatisfaction with the massive destruction of their

6 towns. The fact that Muslims and Croats who respond to the mobilisation,

7 and conscripts of Serbian nationality who previously avoided military

8 obligations are accepted into the unit with reluctance, has a most

9 disadvantageous influence on the morale of the troops. This is made worse

10 by public statements made in the media by SDS Bosanska Krajina autonomous

11 region leaders who advocate the moving and expelling of all Muslims and

12 Croats from these areas."

13 Do you see that in this report, Mr. Pasic?

14 A. I didn't understand your question. Do I see what?

15 Q. Do you see the portion that I read to you? I'll reread it to

16 you: "This is made worse by public statements made in the media by SDS

17 Bosanski Krajina --"

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. "-- region leaders who advocate moving and expelling of all

20 Muslims and Croats from these areas." Mr. Pasic, does that refresh your

21 recollection as to the public comments that were made by the ARK leaders

22 at the time the Muslims were sequestered in Blagaj?

23 A. Well, obviously -- I don't know if you understood my position and

24 function at that time, the position I occupied. Now, if this is true,

25 what you said, this is not a -- this couldn't have been a piece of

Page 19776

1 information that was accessible to me, nor do I know anything about this

2 piece of information, so I can't enter into the rightness or wrongness of

3 what was written here, but let me repeat that I was not aware and informed

4 of facts as they have been laid out here.

5 Q. Okay. Now, did you participate in the negotiations with Muslim

6 representatives who were sequestered in Blagaj, as to what would happen to

7 them, as to where they would go?

8 A. Well, I don't know how you mean "sequestered in Blagaj." They

9 weren't sequestered in Blagaj. Blagaj is a village, it's an area where

10 for a time from the other parts of the village parts of the Muslim

11 population was located, and I negotiated with those people.

12 Q. Did you negotiate with Sifet Barjaktarevic, among others?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. He made it clear, as did other representatives, that they wanted

15 to return to their villages in the Japra valley. That was one of their

16 positions, wasn't it?

17 A. No. One of the positions of Sifet Barjaktarevic and Mr. Sefer

18 Halilovic was that they wished to leave those areas for a number of

19 reasons, the ones I discussed when we were here previously, their motives.

20 Q. Are you saying, Mr. Pasic, that they never once expressed the

21 desire to return to their homes in the Japra valley? Is that your

22 testimony?

23 A. At that time, as far as I know, what they asked was to leave the

24 area for a number of reasons and one of those reasons was the talk with

25 Mr. Kirudja in present day Croatia in a place called Topusko where I think

Page 19777

1 they negotiated on one occasion with Mr. Kirudja.

2 Q. The fact was, Mr. Pasic, that the Muslims were not going to be

3 permitted to return to their homes; isn't that correct?

4 A. No, that is not correct.

5 Q. If we could turn, Your Honours, to Prosecution Exhibit 739, it's

6 found in tab 17. And Witness, if you could turn to tab 17, I want to

7 refer you to a 1st Krajina Corps command report dated the 1st of June. It

8 is authored by Colonel Milutin Vukelic. It's a report on the current

9 political and security situation in the area. And, Witness, I'm going to

10 read a portion of the third paragraph of this report. That is found on

11 page 1 in the B/C/S and page 1 in the English, starting in the middle of

12 the paragraph: "A portion of the Muslim and Croatian population is moving

13 out and the region of Bosnian Krajina has issued a decision to facilitate

14 such departures, providing the Serbs from Central Bosnia and places with

15 predominantly Muslim and Croatian populations were also allowed to move

16 out. Those departing will not be allowed to return."

17 That was the position of the political leadership in the ARK

18 region. Isn't that the case, Mr. Pasic?

19 A. No. I don't agree with this. And here is why: I have to tell

20 you, and I said this last time, that otherwise we had very little contact

21 when it came to Krajina and anybody else at the level of the republic. So

22 positions of this kind are not something I'm aware of. I don't know that

23 anybody had to leave because they were forced to leave when it came to the

24 official organs at that time, so I'm not aware of that fact.

25 Q. Mr. Pasic, you participated in meetings with other regional

Page 19778

1 representatives and conveyed the results of those meetings to the ARK

2 Crisis Staff. In fact, you made demands as a result of meetings that you

3 had, where you were present with representatives of other municipalities.

4 Do you recall participating in such meetings, Mr. Pasic, in the month of

5 June 1992?

6 A. I don't know which meetings you have in mind. There were a number

7 of them.

8 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you participate in meetings

9 with political representatives of other municipalities in the month of

10 June where you discussed the situation of -- on the ground in your

11 respective municipalities, including the situation in respect of Muslims

12 and Croats who were living in your municipalities?

13 A. Well, throughout the months of May and June, there were difficult

14 days for the Novi Grad municipality and Bosanski Novi, and I really don't

15 remember -- well, I know that I spent most of my time in my office, in

16 fact, and for objective reasons; because the security situation was such

17 and you couldn't get to other municipalities that easily. So possibly

18 there were, but I'm not sure I remember what meetings you have in mind and

19 what they discussed.

20 MR. HARMON: We could disseminate the next exhibit, it's a new

21 exhibit, it's not found in the binders and it needs an exhibit number.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Before doing so, Mr. Harmon, you referred us to tab

23 17 and I have difficulties in finding the quote you gave.

24 MR. HARMON: Tab 17, Your Honour, it is found in the third

25 paragraph, in the middle of the paragraph.

Page 19779

1 JUDGE ORIE: Tab 17, I have -- I have no third paragraph where I

2 could find in the middle.

3 MR. HARMON: It should be a document 1st Krajina Corps dated June

4 the 1st, in tab 17.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's not there. I've got a document the

6 9th of June.

7 MR. HARMON: I see. I will make -- then if we can return to that

8 document, Your Honour, I will make sure that --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you please, so that we --

10 MR. HARMON: It's Prosecution Exhibit 739, so I will make sure

11 there are copies distributed.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

13 MR. HARMON: This is a document, Mr. Pasic. It is entitled --

14 MR. JOSSE: Could the accused have one, please.


16 Q. It is entitled Inter-Municipal Agreements in the Sana-Una area,

17 Korcanica, 14th of June 1992 at 1200 hours. Present are representatives

18 of Bosanska Krupa [sic], Bosanski Petrovac, Bosanski Novi, Bosanska

19 Dubica, Prijedor, and Sanski Most, and you'll see a list of topics. And

20 this was a meeting that you attended, Mr. Pasic. If you turn to the last

21 page of this document, you will see a handwritten list of people who

22 attended the meeting, and if you direct your attention, Mr. Pasic, to

23 number 11, is that your name and signature?

24 A. This is my name and signature, but I never attended that meeting.

25 I don't remember attending -- at being at Korcanica at all. I think it's

Page 19780

1 a place on Mount Grmac [phoen]. However, I was never there myself.

2 Q. Why don't you cast an eye very briefly, because we are going to be

3 turning to another document in a minute -- why don't you cast your eye

4 very quickly to the content of this document and see if this refreshes

5 your recollection. And cast your eye, also, Mr. Pasic, to the other

6 attendees, who include Mr. Rasula, number 2; Mr. Anicic, number 3; Simo

7 Drljaca, number 13; Vlado Vrkes, number 21. See if the list of attendees

8 and the substance of this refreshes your recollection.

9 A. No. I really don't remember ever having been at Korcanica. There

10 were meetings which were held in Sanski Most and I do remember some of

11 those meetings. However, the meeting at Korcanica, I really don't

12 remember it.

13 Q. Let's turn now to another exhibit and then, Mr. Pasic --

14 JUDGE ORIE: We have not yet given a number to the document you

15 just presented to the witness. Mr. Registrar, that would be?

16 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P1030, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: 1030.


19 Q. If we could turn to tab 18, Mr. Pasic, tab 18 is a document, it's

20 a Prosecution Exhibit P192, also P529 Hanson tab 343. This is a document

21 dated the 7th of June 1992, Sanski Most, and it's conclusions that were

22 adopted at a subregional meeting of political representatives of the

23 municipalities of Bihac, Bosanski Petrovac, Srpska Krupa, Sanski Most,

24 Prijedor, Bosanski Novi, and Kljuc. And these conclusions were sent to

25 the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region of Banja Luka, the leadership of

Page 19781

1 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo, and the 1st Krajina Corps.

2 This is a document that makes a series of demands and states a series of

3 positions, and I'm going to identify two of those positions.

4 In point 4, Mr. Pasic, the political representatives of the

5 municipalities I identified demanded that the 1st Krajina Corps in Banja

6 Luka, particularly General Talic of the 1st Krajina Corps, purge the 1st

7 Krajina Corps of Muslims and Croats. And if we turn to item number 6 in

8 that report, I'll read this in toto: "All seven municipalities in our

9 sub-region agree that Muslims and Croats should move out of our

10 municipalities until a level is reached where Serbian authority can be

11 maintained and implemented on its own territory in each of the

12 municipalities. In this request -- respect, we request that the Crisis

13 Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina provide a corridor for the

14 resettlement of Muslims and Croats to Central Bosnia and Alija's

15 independent state of BH because they voted for it. If the leadership of

16 the Autonomous Region of Krajina in Banja Luka fails to solve this issue,

17 our seven municipalities will take all Muslims and Croats under military

18 escort from our municipalities to the centre of Banja Luka."

19 This is a demand that is made in order to permit the Serbian

20 authority to be maintained and implemented in your municipality, among

21 others, Mr. Pasic. Did you attend this meeting where this particular --

22 these particular conclusions were reached?

23 A. Really it's very difficult for me to remember whether I attended

24 this meeting or not. I remember having been at some meetings in Sanski

25 Most. Whether this particular one was one of them, I really can't

Page 19782

1 remember at this moment. I know that I was not at the previous meeting

2 that we spoke about. There were some meetings in Sanski Most but at this

3 moment I really can't remember what kind of meetings those were.

4 Q. Well if we turn to the next exhibit, Mr. Pasic -- the next tab,

5 tab 19, I want to see if this might refresh your recollection, Mr. Pasic.

6 Tab 19, Your Honours and Mr. Pasic, is an excerpt from a book -- the book

7 is "It Is a Crime to Forget a Crime! Sanski Most in the War (1992 -

8 1995)." The two authors are Zilhad Kljucanin and Hazim Akmadzic, and I

9 have excerpted a portion of this book.

10 Your Honours will notice in the B/C/S version there is -- page 96

11 has not been translated. I noticed that last night.

12 But Mr. Pasic, if you look at this text, you will see --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Do we need it or could we take it out?

14 MR. HARMON: It should be taken out, page 96 should be taken out.

15 I noticed it wasn't translated.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Has it an exhibit number already?

17 MR. HARMON: No, Your Honour.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Registrar?

19 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P1031, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And that starts with page 97.

21 MR. HARMON: It should start with 95, Your Honour, and then there

22 is a 96, which is the page that is not translated.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise. It starts page 95 and then goes to 97.


25 Q. Now, Mr. Pasic, if you turn to page 99 in the B/C/S, this book

Page 19783

1 cites the following people as having been present at the meeting of these

2 subregional municipality heads that met on the 7th of June. It says, and

3 I'll read them to you and perhaps this refreshes your recollection:

4 Nedeljko Rasula, Nedeljko Anicic, Bogdan Latinovic, Dragan Ivanic, Simo

5 Cisiovic, Milan Vojinovic, Gojko Kliskovic [phoen], Mladen Lukic, Rajko

6 Novakovic, Radomir Pasic, Milan Kurjacic [phoen], Simo Drljaca, Mile

7 Damjanovic, Bosko Marjanovic, Nikola Kokan, Simo Kurnjacic [phoen], Milan

8 Kovacevic, Grujo Boric, Milomir Stabic, and Vlado Vrkes. Does that help

9 refresh your recollection, Mr. Pasic, as to whether you attended the

10 meeting in Sanski Most of the political representatives from the

11 municipalities that are identified in it?

12 A. I've already told you that I did attend some meetings in Sanski

13 Most. I don't know whether one of them is this particular one that you're

14 talking about. I really can't say. I can't remember. I repeat, there

15 were meetings in Sanski Most that I attended. Whether this meeting is one

16 of them or not, I really can't be sure.

17 Q. Let's focus on item number 6, then, Mr. Pasic, because item number

18 6 is essentially a request coupled with a threat. The request to the

19 leaders of the ARK is to provide a corridor for the resettlement of

20 Muslims and Croats to Central Bosnia, and if the ARK leaders don't solve

21 the issue, then all seven municipalities threaten to take all Muslims and

22 Croats under military escorts from their respective municipalities. Did

23 you participate in that meeting where that threat was made? Yes or no.

24 I know you attended some meetings in Sanski Most. Did you participate in

25 this meeting?

Page 19784

1 A. As I've already told you, I did attend some meetings. As for the

2 types of threats that you have just spoken about, I'm really not aware of

3 them and I can't remember whether within that context anybody spoke about

4 Muslims moving out of Bosanski Novi, or Novi Grad as it was known at the

5 time.

6 Q. Mr. Pasic, if you didn't attend this meeting, who was the

7 political representative from your municipality who attended this meeting?

8 A. You're asking me something that I really don't know. I'm saying

9 that I cannot remember. It was a long time ago. It was very difficult

10 for me to remember what happened each day or each moment. I repeat, I did

11 attend some meetings. Whether I attended this one or some others, I

12 really don't know. I can't even remember word for word what conclusions

13 were made. Some conclusions were passed subsequently by a work group that

14 I wasn't a member of. I repeat, this is something that I cannot either

15 claim or deny, that something happened or did not happen. I simply cannot

16 remember. My memory doesn't serve me that well. It's very difficult for

17 me to say whether I attended a meeting of this sort. As far as I can

18 remember, those people who went to those meetings from Novi Grad besides

19 me, nobody asked for the forcible resettlement of population from Novi

20 Grad. Solutions were sought as to how to help these people, how to

21 overcome such a situation. That was the context. And all the meetings

22 called for a solution to be found as to how to resolve the situation in

23 Novi Grad. Our proposal was that there should be a peaceful way, without

24 casualties, that people who wanted to leave should be provided with the

25 means to go, that there should be some understanding for their requests.

Page 19785

1 Last time I told you that this was our idea. If we had wanted to expel

2 Muslims, we could have found easier options, but this was not our goal.

3 This was not the idea.

4 Q. Mr. Pasic, if we could turn now to the next tab, tab 20, this is a

5 Prosecution Exhibit 529, Hanson tab 426.

6 Mr. Pasic, this is a document -- do you recognise this document as

7 bearing your signature?

8 A. This is not very legible. This is a very poor copy.

9 Q. Mr. Pasic, this document is dated the 8th of June and you have had

10 a chance to cast your eye on substance of this. At the bottom there is a

11 poorly reproduced signature, I agree with you. There is typewritten the

12 name Radomir Pasic. This is an information --

13 MR. JOSSE: Could I ask where the original is, or at least the

14 copy from which this particular copy was made?

15 MR. HARMON: I don't have the answer at hand, Your Honour, but

16 I'll find out and try to obtain the original.

17 MR. JOSSE: I think the cross-examination on this point should

18 stop until the witness sees the original, particularly bearing in mind the

19 illegible passages in translation. That's my submission.

20 MR. HARMON: Our submission, Your Honour, is that the substance of

21 the document is clear and that the witness should be able, may be able to,

22 in reviewing the document itself, identify and recall the document as

23 something that he issued, even though he can't see the signature.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, the Chamber allows Mr. Harmon to ask the

Page 19786

1 witness whether he has any recollection of ever having issued a decision

2 with such a content, apart from whether he recognises this as his

3 signature at this moment.

4 MR. JOSSE: I understand. Thank you.


6 Q. Mr. Pasic, can you answer that question?

7 A. Could you please provide me with a better copy? I can't see many

8 of the words here. I would first have to read the text properly and then

9 I will be able to tell you whether I did something or not. If you have a

10 better copy, could you please give it to me.

11 MR. HARMON: I have a copy here. I don't know if it's better than

12 the one in front of the witness but I will read from the translation and

13 it should be able to assist the witness.

14 MR. JOSSE: I'm going to take the point again.


16 MR. JOSSE: The problem with the translation is there are

17 significant important illegible passages that might be alleviated by a

18 better copy being provided.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, if there is a better copy, then it would

20 be preferable to have that one. At the same time, while translating the

21 document, it seems that the interpreters were able to read -- well, most

22 of it. And from what I learn from the translation, it gives sufficient

23 context for a witness to remember whether he ever issued such a decision

24 even if he would not remember each and every word of it.

25 Mr. Pasic, would you try to do your utmost best to read from the

Page 19787

1 document as good as you can, even if not every word would be readable,

2 legible, would you please try to familiarise yourself with that portion of

3 the document, which should be most of it, which is legible.


5 Q. Have you had an opportunity, Mr. Pasic, to read the text that I

6 have put in front of you? I will read -- if you can't read it well, I

7 will read into the record a portion of this.

8 MR. JOSSE: I assumed Your Honour was asking him to read it out

9 aloud.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I did not ask the witness to do that, but I think

11 most of the -- I can imagine that the Prosecution might be mainly

12 interested in the last two paragraphs of this document.

13 MR. HARMON: That's correct, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Which are not the worst legible portions of this

15 document.

16 MR. HARMON: And the second paragraph, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And the second paragraph.

18 MR. HARMON: And I can read what has been translated for me.

19 Q. Mr. Pasic, let me just orient you on this document so I can try to

20 assist you and expedite this. This is a document that is issued from the

21 Bosanski Novi Crisis Staff on the 8th of June 1992, addressed to the

22 citizens of Blagaj and Japra valley. The subject is an information. And

23 I will read this to you because I think it might expedite this. Parts of

24 it are illegible, as you have said, but those parts that are legible I

25 will read. "On 7 June 1992, you were informed by the Bosanski Novi Red

Page 19788

1 Cross organisation about the problems of departure of Muslims from the

2 territory of Bosanski Novi municipality. In the last three days, there

3 have been war operations in the woods near Blagaj with the objective of

4 eliminating the existing Muslim terrorist groups." And then there is

5 missing text.

6 "As members of the Serbian army are engaged on these tasks around

7 the clock -" then it's illegible - "Serbian families at risk, there is a

8 real danger for -" and then it is illegible - "population in Blagaj."

9 Next paragraph: "Departure through Croatia and Slovenia organised

10 by UNPROFOR was attempted before without success. The passage toward

11 Banja Luka remains free. We hereby advise the citizens that we are

12 prepared to provide a peaceful and secure departure of Muslim population

13 from that area. With a view to your security, it is necessary to form a

14 departure column immediately. The Crisis Staff and the Red Cross are

15 prepared to assist with vehicles, food, and other needs. If these

16 proposals are rejected, the Crisis Staff will no longer be able to

17 guarantee security for Muslims in this area. President of the Crisis

18 Staff Radomir Pasic," and then there is a signature.

19 Do you recall having issued this document, Mr. Pasic?

20 A. As I've already told you, the Crisis Staff -- I was its president

21 but I did not make decisions independently on my own. It was the Crisis

22 Staff who made the decisions.

23 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you've issued this document.

24 No one asked you whether you took a decision alone or not. First question

25 is: Is this a decision, taken by whomever, whatever form, was issued by

Page 19789

1 you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I can't remember. If this is

3 your question and if you want a brief answer, I can only say that I can't

4 remember.

5 MR. HARMON: Okay.

6 Q. We will move on, then.

7 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I'm in the process of attempting to get

8 the original document that we have and if it comes to me during this

9 examination period, I'll present it to the witness and perhaps he can

10 recognise his signature.



13 Q. Mr. Pasic, on the 8th of June, in fact, when this particular

14 information was issued, the military situation in Bosanski Novi was fully

15 under military control. Isn't that the case?

16 A. It was not completely under the control of the army. I told you

17 last time that we had a lot of problems with those paramilitary formations

18 and we did everything we possibly could to avoid bloodshed and any

19 knee-jerk actions. I've told you already that we could not have 100 per

20 cent control in order to provide security and that we had a lot of

21 problems with the paramilitary formations.

22 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, the next exhibit is found in tab 21. It

23 needs a number.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 21, Your Honours will be P1032, and that will

Page 19790

1 be for the regular combat report dated 9 June 1992.

2 MR. HARMON: I'm not going to show the witness this particular

3 document. I'm going to direct Your Honours' attention to three paragraphs

4 in this document and as well as the next document. This document, Your

5 Honour, P --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Then you treat it as a contextual exhibit and read it

7 so that if the witness would have any comment on it, that he has an

8 opportunity.

9 MR. HARMON: I will be glad to do that, Your Honour. This is

10 P1032.

11 Q. Witness, just for your information, it's also in tab, as I said,

12 tab 21. This is a military secret 1st Krajina Corps command report, dated

13 the 9th of June. It's a regular combat report directed to the Serbian

14 Republic of BH Army Main Staff, and it is signed by General Talic. In the

15 subpart 1, it says, about two-thirds down in the English: "The members of

16 'Green Berets' that were fragmented into smaller groups were attempting

17 to pull out of the municipalities of Prijedor, Sanski Most, Kljuc, and

18 Bosanski Novi, and move into Cazinska Krajina."

19 If we go down to part 2, under Combat Readiness, mid-paragraph, it

20 says: "Mopping up operations and the pursuit of groups attempting to

21 break through to Cazin Krajina are continuing in the municipalities of

22 Prijedor, Sanski Most, Kljuc, and Bosanski Novi."

23 And, 3, under Situation on the Ground, it says: "The situation on

24 the territory within the zone of responsibility and the combat operations

25 zone is under control."

Page 19791

1 If we turn to subpart 8 in this document, on page 2 in English --

2 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I'm going to take the greatest objection

3 to this. If my learned friend wants to call evidence in rebuttal, then

4 the Rules provide for that. The Court has already said that contextual

5 documents the Prosecution want to put in at this particular juncture must

6 be done with caution. We must be given a chance to comment and make

7 submissions in relation to them. If the Prosecution are going to put in

8 document after document, ask the -- if the witness is lucky, ask one

9 question about whether his name appears upon it, that's one thing, and

10 I've been told I can't object to that, but this is quite another course of

11 action that my learned friend is now adopting, and I think it needs to be

12 properly aired and properly argued.

13 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that Mr. Harmon wants to use this document

14 in order to verify the correctness of the last answer of the witness, who

15 said that there was no full military control.

16 MR. HARMON: Correct.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I think the proper way of doing it is that Mr. Pasic

18 will have an opportunity to read the document, that his attention is drawn

19 to those portions of this document on which Mr. Harmon thinks that the

20 last answer of the witness is contradicted, to see whether there is any --

21 whether it changes his mind or whether it gives rise to any comment.

22 Therefore, it seems proper to me to draw the specific attention of the

23 witness to certain portions so that he doesn't have to read all kind of

24 irrelevant stuff, and at the same time it goes too quick for the witness

25 to do it this way. So therefore, Mr. Harmon, you have asked the attention

Page 19792

1 of the witness to the last portion of first paragraph.

2 MR. HARMON: That's correct.

3 JUDGE ORIE: The --

4 MR. HARMON: To the mid-paragraph -- subpart 2 of the

5 mid-paragraph, dealing with mopping up operations. The first sentence in

6 subpart 3.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please provide the witness with one

8 copy of this document, indicating in the margin which specific, and then

9 leave it until after the break to give an opportunity to the witness to

10 comment on this document, in light of the last answer he gave. And if you

11 have similar documents -- Mr. Josse.

12 MR. JOSSE: Whilst that is being done, could I ask my learned

13 friend's assistance, if he could try and attempt to obtain the original of

14 P1030, because I want to re-examine and I think the Court will require the

15 original, please.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's --

17 MR. JOSSE: The document we were handed this morning for the first

18 time. The 14th of June 1992, Inter-Municipal agreements document.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Harmon, could you assist Mr. Josse in this

20 respect.

21 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. I'm just marking for the witness

22 those portions.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, yes. I do understand. A lot of work at

24 the same time, isn't it?

25 MR. HARMON: Okay. If I could have the assistance of the usher, I

Page 19793

1 could pass this to the witness.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we leave that to the first break so the

3 witness has a little bit more time to look at it, Mr. Harmon.

4 MR. HARMON: All right. I direct Your Honours' attention to that.

5 I have another document that I would like to also direct Your Honours'

6 attention to. I will mark the passages, and after the recess the witness

7 can begin to comment on that.


9 MR. HARMON: The next document, Your Honour, is found at tab 22.

10 And, Your Honours, I will mark this for the witness as well, but this also

11 is dated the 10th of June. This is a 1st Krajina Corps command report,

12 directed to the Serbian Republic of BH Army Main Staff, signed by General

13 Talic, and I'd like to direct Your Honours' attention to four portions of

14 this report.

15 JUDGE ORIE: We might even consider to have an early break,

16 Mr. Harmon, if you have identified the portions. Is it all about military

17 control and presence of paramilitaries or Green Berets or --

18 MR. HARMON: Yes, this portion deals with the evidence that at

19 this point in time --


21 MR. HARMON: -- according to these reports, the situation was

22 under military control, and there are reflections of that in two secret

23 military reports issued by General Talic.


25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 19794

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, the Chamber is considering whether it

2 would be more appropriate to have a short -- a break now and give an

3 opportunity to the witness but, of course, if you would have similar type

4 of questions later on, then it might perhaps be better to wait and see

5 what material is there to be read over the break and to see how much time

6 the witness would need for that.

7 MR. JOSSE: Could I make one brief logistical comment.


9 MR. JOSSE: I am anxious, when Mr. Pasic has finished his

10 evidence, to then have a short break in any event. As a courtesy to him,

11 as I am encouraged to do by the VWS, I would like to speak to him briefly.

12 I would also like to speak briefly again to the next witness. I promised

13 him I would do that immediately before he gives evidence. Just if the

14 Court could schedule that. I would need about 20 minutes at that point in

15 time, I suspect.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand.

17 Mr. Harmon, would a similar exercise, that is going through

18 portions of documents and commenting on them in light of the answers

19 given, would that be something that we could expect?

20 MR. HARMON: We can expect it in at least two documents, Your

21 Honour. Two other documents.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Two other documents?

23 MR. HARMON: Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: So let's then continue at this moment. You may

25 proceed and the witness will at least have a look at tab 21 and 22 but

Page 19795

1 perhaps also to other tabs during the next break.

2 MR. HARMON: Yes.


4 MR. HARMON: I can direct Your Honours' attention to tab 22 --

5 which this also needs an exhibit number, I should say, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar, that would be?

7 THE REGISTRAR: P1033, Your Honours.

8 MR. HARMON: In this particular document, Your Honours, I direct

9 Your Honours' attention to subpart 1. Four lines from the bottom of that

10 paragraph: "Groups of Green Berets attempting to withdraw to the Cazin

11 Krajina are still present in the municipalities of Prijedor, Sanski Most,

12 and Bosanski Novi."


14 MR. HARMON: Subpart 2, starting at the third line: "In the areas

15 of Prijedor, Sanski Most and Bosanski Novi municipalities, mopping up,

16 catching and smashing enemy groups attempting to break through into the

17 Cazin Krajina continues."

18 Subpart 3, the first sentence: "The overall situation in the

19 zone of responsibility and the combat operations zone is under the control

20 of our forces."

21 And subpart 8, second sentence: "Total control of the territory

22 has been achieved, and mopping up of the area and disarming paramilitary

23 formations continue fairly successfully."

24 JUDGE ORIE: You highlighted those portions for the witness.

25 MR. HARMON: Yes.

Page 19796



3 Q. Now, Mr. Pasic, that is the assessment of the military that was

4 operating in your municipality at the time. Do you agree with that

5 assessment or do you disagree with that assessment of the military, of

6 General Talic and the 1st Krajina Corps?

7 A. General Talic had an office in Banja Luka, 100 kilometres from

8 Novi Grad, and I very often disagreed with military assessments, at least

9 when it came to the situation on the ground and safety and security on the

10 ground, and so I don't agree with this information of Mr. Talic either.

11 Now if he wrote that and said that, of course. I should like to repeat,

12 the situation on the ground was as I had described it, and you could not

13 have effective control at all times. That was impossible because of the

14 paramilitaries.

15 Now, whether Mr. Talic wanted to score some political points by

16 writing things of this kind, I really don't know. That's not my field of

17 expertise and I could not participate in talks of this kind or assessments

18 of this kind. I'm -- it's not up to me to make an assessment or

19 evaluation. I'm not competent enough to do that. But I'm speaking about

20 what I myself experienced, what I lived through, and what I remember, how

21 it was and what the situation was like. So I can't tell you anything else

22 nor can I make an assessment of whether it is an objective assessment or

23 subjective assessment of the corps or Mr. Talic, I can't say, but I

24 personally consider that what you've just read out to me is an arbitrary

25 assessment and that he very often wrote something that did not exist on

Page 19797

1 the ground.

2 Q. Now, returning back to the documents in tab 20, which is the

3 information to the citizens of Blagaj and Japra valley, it describes war

4 operations in the woods near Blagaj and says essentially that in order to

5 secure the Muslims, for their security, they should depart.

6 My question to you, Mr. Pasic, is: In light of these war

7 operations that were taking place in the woods, in the Japra valley, what

8 measures were taken by you or by the Territorial Defence or the army to

9 secure the Serb villages from harm?

10 A. The security tasks are something that I've already told you about,

11 and that came under the Territorial Defence and the police station, the

12 public security station, as far as they were able. It was impossible, in

13 view of the given situation and the situation throughout

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Novi Grad municipality itself, it was

15 impossible to provide guarantees to anyone, either to the Muslims or the

16 Serb population because the situation was one of chaos, when you really

17 didn't know or couldn't know whether somebody's life would be at stake or

18 jeopardised or not. So that part of the security situation that you've

19 just asked me, I really can't say. We could not guarantee safety and

20 security. Nothing was safe and secure, especially the way you put it.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, why don't you answer the question? The

22 question was what measures you took. Mr. Harmon confronts you with a

23 situation, as suggested by this yet unverified document, that measures

24 were taken to protect the inhabitants of Muslim villages by saying it's

25 safer for you to move out, whether you took similar measures in respect of

Page 19798

1 Serb villages in that same area. That's the question. Could you please

2 answer that question.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as I understood it, you asked

4 me about the security of the Serb villages. Is that right?

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but what measures you took to protect. Let me

6 just -- Mr. Harmon asked you, in light of these war operations that were

7 taking place in the woods in the Japra valley, what measures were taken by

8 you or by the Territorial Defence or the army to secure the Serb villages

9 from harm in relation to the measures -- that's how I understood the

10 question and that's the context of the question. In relation to the

11 measures taken in respect of Muslim villages, whether you took similar or

12 different or what measures you took in respect of Serb villages in order

13 to protect or secure the population of those villages.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember any special

15 measures being taken in that context. What I do know is that the

16 Territorial Defence staff and the police -- I mean the public security

17 station, that they worked, if I can put it this way, to further their

18 tasks. And that was the goal; in some way to have those two organisations

19 attempt to establish law and order, both in the Muslim part of the

20 territory and the Serb part of the territory. I can't remember that any

21 special measures were taken when it came to the Serb territories and the

22 area populated by Serbs with any additional or special separate measures.

23 I don't know that there was anything special or particular in that regard.


25 Q. I take it you agree with me that none of the Serb villagers who

Page 19799

1 lived in the Japra valley were asked to leave their villages and go to a

2 specific location where they could be kept in a secure environment; is

3 that correct?

4 A. No. You would have to know the configuration of the terrain, the

5 Japra valley. You would have to know the places that the Serbs lived and

6 the percentage of the population.

7 Q. My question, Mr. Pasic, was: Were the Serb villagers in the Japra

8 valley asked to leave their villages and go to another location where they

9 would be more secure? Yes or no.

10 A. I can't answer with a yes or a no because there was displacement

11 from Serb houses as well, but not pursuant to a command. It was their own

12 free will sometimes, their feeling for security. So there were instances

13 like that where the Serbs left their houses too.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, again, the question was not whether any

15 Serbian families would have left their homes but whether they were asked

16 to leave their villages and go to another location. That was the

17 question. Did you ever make an announcement: "Please leave your homes,

18 Serbian villagers"?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I said that as far as I know,

20 that didn't happen, but people did leave their houses for security

21 reasons.

22 JUDGE ORIE: The answer is simply no such a -- this was not asked.

23 Then, of course, you could have added whatever you wanted, but that's the

24 answer to the question, it was not asked to them, and then you can add to

25 that whatever you think is relevant. I now understand your testimony to

Page 19800

1 be it was never asked, but that some from their own free will left their

2 homes. And I'm now talking about Serbian families. Is that a correct

3 understanding?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm afraid you didn't understand me

5 properly. You interrupt me quite frequently so I really cannot say and

6 describe the actual situation, so I'm afraid that sometimes something will

7 be omitted which would be very important for this Court to have the real

8 truth and the proper information. So, please, you must understand me that

9 it's impossible to answer certain questions with just a yes or a no and I

10 consider that we can't discuss the matter in this way.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, the only thing I did is to urge you to

12 first answer the question and then to add what you consider to be relevant

13 in that context and not to tell us everything you consider relevant

14 without answering the question. The question quite simply was whether you

15 ever asked -- whether the Serbian families were ever asked to leave their

16 homes. I now understand that they were not asked to do so, but that some

17 of them did leave their homes. If this is an incorrect understanding of

18 your testimony, please correct me. If it is a correct understanding and

19 you think that there is any need to complete your answer, please do so.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I must say not in that

21 type of context, but there were various pieces of information over the

22 local radio, both for the Serb population and the Muslim population alike,

23 to refrain from all types of military or similar voluntary, arbitrary

24 operations and where they consider there was the risk to take shelter. So

25 a general appeal was made to a possible security situation and that they

Page 19801

1 should assess this themselves, but we said that we can't guarantee - I or

2 the Crisis Staff or any of the authorities from the municipality -

3 couldn't provide guarantees either to the Muslims or Serbs, so in that

4 context, let me repeat, this did not refer, generally speaking, to the

5 Muslims as a whole and the Serbs as a whole, but there was a general

6 information sent out to the population of Bosanski Novi and Novi Grad.

7 That means that we didn't target Muslims or target Serbs separately. We

8 just issued warnings and tried to caution them and warn them of the

9 situation we were in, and we tried to calm the situation down, and where

10 it was felt that there might be an escalation in the conflict, that those

11 sides should separate from each other. This referred to both the Muslims

12 and the Serbs, and these were appeals which were very often made over the

13 radio. Of course, there wasn't any electricity at that point in time, so

14 the radio wasn't always working, but there were things of this kind going

15 on.


17 Q. Mr. Pasic, let's turn to the events that took place the day after

18 this information was issued. And I'm referring to the removal of a large

19 number of Muslims on train cars that took place in your municipality. I

20 believe that is referred to in D115 of your report at page 10 in the

21 English, and I'll read it. It says: "As the tensions and pressures from

22 the populace in the area steadily grew, there was not a slightest

23 possibility of any guarantees for them, so that appropriate measures were

24 taken to allow the people to move out in the direction of Banja Luka,

25 which was done on 8 June." Now that reference in this report of the work

Page 19802

1 of the Crisis Staff, D115, refers to the removal of Muslims on the train

2 cars, doesn't it?

3 A. Yes, it talks about the manner and reasons for which that

4 population moved out, and I think we discussed that matter and expounded

5 it earlier on, why this happened and how this happened.

6 Q. My question, Mr. Pasic, this reference to appropriate measures

7 being taken refers to the removal of the Muslim population on the trains,

8 and you answered the question, "Yes."

9 Now, let me inform you, Mr. Pasic, that this Trial Chamber has

10 heard considerable evidence of the circumstances under which that removal

11 took place, including the murders of Muslims that took place at the

12 location where Muslims were forced on trains, including the murder,

13 Mr. Pasic, of Mr. Sifet Barjaktarevic, your fellow negotiator. It heard

14 evidence of intimidation, shots fired over their heads, thefts of personal

15 property. It heard evidence of the facts that there was no food, water,

16 toilet facilities, protective garments, medical care provided to those

17 people who were forced onto those trains and forced out of your

18 municipality. Mr. Pasic, were you aware of that, those circumstances

19 having taken place when the Muslim citizens of Bosanski Novi were forced

20 onto trains and removed from your municipality?

21 A. I have no such information. That there were certain conflicts in

22 the Japra valley, yes, there were, I don't challenge that, but they were

23 forced onto trains, I don't know about that, because I wasn't there. So

24 that's one of the reasons. And the other reason is the one that I was

25 informed of by the TO staff, that those persons were not forced onto train

Page 19803

1 cars and that that departure on the trains, that prior to that there were

2 talks between Mr. Sifet Barjaktarevic and Hamzagic where they asked,

3 because you weren't able to go via Croatia at that time, asked that they

4 go to Central Bosnia, and they just accepted this departure to Central

5 Bosnia because they were afraid or they were unwilling to accept it but

6 they did because they thought they would be mobilised and have to take up

7 arms and go to war. So that's the sole reason that they put to me and

8 they said that they didn't agree to go to Central Bosnia because it was a

9 better, more acceptable option to go to Croatia.

10 Q. I asked if you were aware of that and you answered my question.

11 You earlier testified that you were not present when the Muslim citizens

12 of your community were forced onto those train cars. Was anybody from the

13 Crisis Staff present? And I have -- again referring to D115, let me refer

14 to some members who may have been there by virtue of their posts. Mile

15 Damjanovic, commander of the TD municipal staff. Dragomir Kutlija, head

16 of the public security situation. Ljubisa Latinovic, humanitarian and

17 health and security. Dragomir Drazic, procurement food and refugees.

18 Were any of those persons present when the Muslims in your community were

19 forced onto those trains?

20 A. First of all, the way you asked that question would lead me to say

21 yes, but I can't say yes because you've said a series of things that I

22 don't agree with and I consider are not true, not correct. So the

23 Muslims, that means, during that period of time, were not forcibly

24 displaced by the territorial staff.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, what Mr. Harmon would like to know, what

Page 19804

1 the Chamber would like to know, is whether any of the members of the

2 Crisis Staff were present when these people boarded the train.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but before that, he asked me a

4 shorter question that I can't answer.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. Mr. Harmon repeats, saying

6 forced, where you say they went voluntarily, as far as you know, so

7 therefore it's of no use to repeat that difference of opinion again and

8 again and again in the questions. What the Chamber therefore I said, not

9 only Mr. Harmon, but the Chamber would like to know is whether and which

10 of these members of the Crisis Staff were present when these people were -

11 and please mind my word - were boarding the train.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'll answer your question. I

13 don't remember of these people -- well, what I know is, and the command of

14 the Territorial Defence staff Damjanovic told me then that this operation

15 -- I think it was a position of the Chief of Staff of TO and that his

16 name was Radislav Sekulic, that he was in charge and that he was in

17 command of those people in Blagaj when that happened. Now, as for the

18 people that you read out, I really can't remember whether during the day

19 -- well, or whether that operation lasted a day or a day and a half, I

20 can't remember, whether they were really there, I really don't know. At

21 this point in time, I can't say.


23 Q. What did they report to you as to the circumstances of the

24 boarding of the Muslims on the train? Did they tell you it was peaceful

25 and there were no events, no violent events that occurred in respect of

Page 19805

1 the Muslims? Is that the information you received?

2 A. Well, I received information, as I said a moment ago, from the

3 command of the TO staff, Mr. Damjanovic, to the effect that the action,

4 the operation was conducted in such a way that they were not forced, they

5 were not -- those people were not forcibly taken into the train cars but

6 that he couldn't tell me what was happening around Blagaj, the upper part

7 of the village, whether there was any shooting or not. And he assumed, he

8 even assumed that there might have been some groups or small groups or

9 paramilitary formations, units, because it's not a small place, which he

10 could not control. He wasn't able to control that whole area, so he was

11 just speaking about the railway station and the situation at the railway

12 station itself and the way in which the people boarded the cars. So he

13 informed me about that, and he also informed me, as I've already told you,

14 that Mr. Sekulic was in charge of that operation. I think he was the

15 chief, or that was his position, his function, in the TO.

16 Q. Mr. Pasic, I'm going to turn back to the document which is the

17 information, which is P529, that is found in tab 20. In -- specifically,

18 the document says, in the penultimate paragraph, dealing with the removal

19 -- with the departure of the Muslim population, it says: "The Crisis

20 Staff and the Red Cross are prepared to assist with vehicles, food and

21 other needs." That was the assurance that was given in this particular

22 document bearing a typewritten name Radomir Pasic. Mr. Pasic, what steps

23 did you take to ensure that the people -- that the trains that were

24 leaving the municipality with thousands of your Muslim citizens had food,

25 had water, had medical resources, had toilet -- proper toilet facilities?

Page 19806

1 A. Well, I think I've already spoken about that, but let me repeat.

2 In some way, that was a decision, or whatever you would like to call it,

3 of the Crisis Staff, that those people, that is to say the people who

4 entered the cars, should be enabled as far as possible, up to Doboj, the

5 minimum conditions. They said that they would get -- Doboj would be the

6 first station, that they would get off there, and that would be a journey

7 of three to four hours, and I think that the Red Cross had precisely that

8 function, to provide minimal elementary conditions, I think, in the form

9 of food, bread, water, essentials. But let me repeat, I don't know who

10 was in charge of that part of the work, which people. I really can't

11 remember which people in concrete terms had to see to this, but there was

12 this agreement to provide a minimum when it came to food, up until the

13 time they were supposed to cross over into territory which at that time

14 was under the control of the Muslim army and the politicians there.

15 Doboj. Which is about 150 kilometres, if you go by train.

16 Q. Mr. Pasic --

17 A. And we didn't know that this would last longer.

18 Q. Mr. Pasic, this document says the Crisis Staff are prepared to

19 assist with food and other needs. My question to you is: You were

20 president of the Crisis Staff. What affirmative steps did you take at

21 that time to ensure that the trains had food and other needs, basic needs,

22 to meet the civilian -- for the civilian population that was leaving on

23 train cars, on --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, you said that the document says that the

25 Crisis Staff is prepared to -- what it actually says is, "The Crisis Staff

Page 19807

1 and the Red Cross are prepared to assist with vehicles, food and other

2 needs," without giving any specification who would be responsible for

3 what.

4 Let's make it quite simple: Did you, as president of the Crisis

5 Staff, take any action as far as preparation -- as providing food is

6 concerned?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, operatively speaking, it is

8 difficult for you to ask me that because that part of the operative work

9 and how far the bakeries were functioning at the time, well, someone was

10 in charge to see to that technical part, to hand it over and so on. I

11 don't remember at this point in time, I think it was someone from the Red

12 Cross. Whether there was someone from the Crisis Staff as well I really

13 can't say. I can't say how the dynamics of this operation evolved but I

14 know that there was talk of some things like that being done.

15 JUDGE ORIE: There was talk about providing bread. Could you tell

16 us, the Red Cross, what Red Cross actually was it you're referring to;

17 International Red Cross, local Red Cross, republican Red Cross?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was under one, the local

19 municipal Red Cross. Now whether anybody from the International Red Cross

20 took part I really wouldn't hazard a guess because I don't remember. I

21 know they took part in some operations but what specific ones I really

22 can't remember. There is the International Red Cross, of course. It was

23 in existence, but whether at that time, whether it participated I really

24 don't remember, I don't know. I think that they meant the local part of

25 the Red Cross first. At that time, there was no communication for us to

Page 19808

1 be able to talk about some other Red Cross apart from the local Red Cross.

2 I don't think there was any other branch.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Was the local Red Cross at that time operated by a

4 mixture of Serbs, Muslims, and Croats, or was it a mono-ethnic operation?

5 At that date. I'm not talking about the month before, but for this

6 specific operation. If you know, please tell us. If you don't know,

7 please tell us as well.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I seem to feel there was somebody

9 from the Muslims. I think there was a woman but I can't remember her

10 name.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand your testimony well if you say,

12 according to your recollection, there was one person of Muslim ethnicity,

13 being a woman of which you do not remember the name, involved in the

14 operations of the Red Cross?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: About other needs -- no, one other question. The

17 assistance as far as vehicles are concerned, do you remember whether the

18 Crisis Staff took any action in that respect?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For that period of time, as far as

20 vehicles are concerned, I don't think that it undertook anything. Those

21 people went by rail, by train. At that time communications were

22 difficult. It was difficult to go anywhere in any other form of

23 transport. There was no fuel and a lot of shortages generally.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Who provided for the trains? I mean, there were

25 trains waiting for these people to allow them to leave. Who prepared for

Page 19809

1 the trains?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the trains belonged to the

3 railways of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time. I don't

4 know which of those people, somebody probably talked to someone from the

5 railway station. I assume someone from the Crisis Staff in charge of that

6 part, that they had contacts with those people, and then they directed the

7 train towards Blagaj when the people went on board. As I say, I don't

8 remember who the person was or the people were but somebody from the

9 railways company, and somebody, I assume, from the Crisis Staff. I think

10 that somebody might have talked to them to provide a train, because at

11 that point in time that was the simplest and safest form of transport, to

12 ensure that people leave the area that way.

13 JUDGE ORIE: You two times said you assumed. Of course, everyone

14 could make assumptions in that respect. Is it that you don't know the

15 name any more or that you do not know whether it was the Crisis Staff?

16 What is the basis for your assumption, and what exactly is your

17 assumption?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I really can't state for sure.

19 Following on from the logics of the matter, it should have been someone

20 from the Crisis Staff who discussed the matter. I know it wasn't me.

21 Now, who it was I can't say, I can't claim, because I don't know for sure.

22 I don't remember who it was exactly who talked to them, but I think it

23 must have been someone at any rate from the Crisis Staff talking to the

24 people from the railways to ensure that this train carry these people at

25 that point in time.

Page 19810

1 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.

2 MR. HARMON: Is this the time, Your Honour, for a break?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's time for a break as well.

4 Mr. Pasic, you will be provided with the documents that were

5 mentioned before. Those portions highlighted which, in the view of

6 Mr. Harmon, need further comment or explanation in order to reconcile them

7 with your answer about military control, would you please have a look at

8 them during the break, and if there is anything you would like to add to

9 the answers already given, because you explained to some extent already

10 that you did not always agree and that you did not always know the

11 specific reasons why matters were reported by General Talic as they were,

12 if there is anything you would like to add, please do that then after the

13 break.

14 At the same time, Mr. Harmon, I think Mr. Josse is waiting -- was

15 it the 14th of June? At least, the document with a clear name but not a

16 clear signature.

17 MR. JOSSE: Tab 20 and also P1030, but I'll speak to my learned

18 friend in a moment.

19 JUDGE ORIE: We will adjourn until five minutes past 11.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.17 a.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, as far as the documents are concerned, do

23 we have any progress to report?

24 MR. HARMON: We do, Your Honour. The first document is the

25 document that was found at tab 20. This is the information dated June the

Page 19811

1 8th. I have obtained a better copy, and it appears - and I'll present

2 this to Mr. Pasic - it appears that someone signed on his behalf. I will

3 present this document. I need it back, it can't be marked as an exhibit,

4 but I will ensure that a better copy is provided at a later date.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have a look at it then --

6 MR. HARMON: Put it on the ELMO.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- has seen it. Yes.

8 MR. HARMON: I can put it on the ELMO or I can pass it up.

9 Q. This is the document, Mr. Pasic, the information dated June the

10 8th, and you will see --

11 MR. JOSSE: Could he just have a look at it before it's put on the

12 ELMO, please, and examine it himself.

13 MR. HARMON: That's fine.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Josse would like to have look at the

15 document.

16 MR. HARMON: He's seen it, Your Honour.

17 MR. JOSSE: The witness, Your Honour. Could the witness look it.

18 I've seen it, thank you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. I apologise.

20 MR. HARMON: There appears, Your Honour, next to the name or word

21 "za," which means "for" --

22 JUDGE ORIE: We are trying to get the picture of the ELMO, but --

23 MR. HARMON: As soon as the witness has finished examining it

24 himself, it will be placed on the ELMO for Your Honours to see. Or I will

25 pass it up to Your Honours. Let me pass it up to Your Honours after I ask

Page 19812

1 a couple of questions of Mr. Pasic.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we could have a look at it.


4 Q. Mr. Pasic, the document that is front of you is the document

5 that's found in P20, and at the bottom it says your typed name, Radomir

6 Pasic, it has the word "za," which means "for," on the left-hand side, and

7 then there is a signature that is legible. Can you identify the

8 signature, Mr. Pasic?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could we please have it on the ELMO so that we can --

10 Mr. Pasic, would you please pass it to Madam Usher so that -- you're still

11 able to look at the original.

12 MR. HARMON: It doesn't come out very clearly on the ELMO. Your

13 Honour, may I pass it up to Your Honours and --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps that's the best idea because we are

15 trying hard to --

16 MR. HARMON: Would you pass that document up to the Judges. They

17 can examine the document. Okay.

18 Madam Usher, if you could return it to the witness and after I've

19 finished asking the witness one or two questions about that document if

20 you could you return it to me, I will ensure the Court has a better copy

21 of this document.

22 Q. Mr. Pasic, do you recognise the signature at the bottom,

23 underneath your name, typewritten name?

24 A. Unfortunately, this is still a bad copy and I cannot recognise the

25 signature. I can only assume -- I repeat, only assume -- that it is the

Page 19813

1 signature from a member of the Crisis Staff, but I don't know who.

2 Q. Are you able to read the signature?

3 A. If I could, then I would know who signed it. I really can't read

4 it. This is still illegible, and this is what I've been trying to say,

5 that sometimes documents were signed on my behalf, not by me.

6 Q. When documents were signed on your behalf as the president of the

7 Crisis Staff, were you given a copy of a document that was signed on your

8 behalf, in the normal course of business?

9 A. The things were happening at such a speed that sometimes I did not

10 even see a document. If something was not important, I didn't see it. If

11 I considered something important, then obviously I had to see it, but

12 there were some things that I didn't even see.

13 Q. The moving of the Muslim population from the village of Blagaj was

14 something that was important. You've already established that in your

15 evidence, Mr. Pasic. Is this a document you would have seen after someone

16 signed it on your behalf?

17 A. The way people moved out was something important, something that I

18 knew of, but not in operative sense. I'm not aware of how the operation

19 was carried out. I know that they went by train, that's for the people of

20 Blagaj, but I repeat, things happened on a daily basis, sometimes there

21 were two or three conclusions in the course of one single day. So some

22 things I didn't even see. Some things were done by other members of the

23 Crisis Staff. Sometimes I would be absent from town.

24 Q. All right, Mr. Pasic. Thank you very much. And if I could have

25 that document, then, returned to me, I will, as I say, ensure that the

Page 19814

1 Court gets a better copy of this.

2 Mr. Pasic, then, given that we have taken a look at Defence

3 Exhibit 115 and there is reference, at least two references on pages 9 and

4 10 of the English, dealing with discussions about the population in Blagaj

5 and how to resolve that problem. Specifically, for example, on page 10,

6 there is a reference, and we've discussed this before, the ARK government,

7 the government of the Serb Republic of BH were asked to determine a

8 decisive stand on the status of the Muslim population. It is clear from

9 this report to the Crisis Staff that there was a dialogue between Crisis

10 Staff representatives in your municipality with representatives at the

11 highest levels, both in the ARK and in the republic level of the Serb

12 leadership, that they were very much aware of the situation in your

13 municipality. After the Muslims left your municipality on the trains, did

14 you, did other members of the Crisis Staff, inform members of the

15 leadership, the Bosnian Serb leadership, in Pale and in Sarajevo, about

16 what had happened to the Muslims?

17 A. You've asked me a few questions. I will take your last question

18 first. I don't remember whether we could have any contacts with the

19 leadership of the Serbs in Pale. I don't know when they were informed,

20 that is the official representatives of Republika Srpska, about the

21 situation, but I don't think that it was immediately after the event. For

22 technical reasons I believe this was not feasible.

23 Q. Mr. Pasic, this document makes perfectly clear that you were able,

24 members in your municipality, were able to discuss with the ARK government

25 and the government of the Serb Republic the situation of the residents,

Page 19815

1 the Muslims in Blagaj, because it's quoted in this report on the work of

2 the Crisis Staff, so there were clearly communications with those higher

3 echelons. So when you say there were essentially bad communications,

4 Mr. Pasic, I submit that there were sufficient communications, as

5 reflected in this document on this topic, with leaders in -- at those

6 upper echelons. My question to you is, and I want you to try to think

7 very clearly on this, when did you inform the leadership at the level of

8 the Bosnian Serb Republic level about what had happened to the Muslims in

9 Blagaj? And when I say "when did you," I'm referring to you personally or

10 members of the Crisis Staff.

11 A. There were communications, but the communication wasn't good, and

12 I personally was affected by that. I really don't know when I or, rather,

13 the Crisis Staff or somebody from the Crisis Staff informed the leadership

14 in Pale. I believe that this information went to Banja Luka first, but,

15 again, I don't know when that information was forwarded to Banja Luka.

16 Q. With whom was this information forwarded in Banja Luka? Who did

17 you tell about the removal of the Muslims from your community in -- who

18 did you tell in Banja Luka about that?

19 A. No. I didn't say I sent the information. I assume that somebody

20 received the information, I don't know who. I don't know whether it was

21 Kupresanin or somebody else. I wouldn't dare say anything specific at

22 this moment. I don't remember that and I cannot claim that it was one of

23 those people. Somebody was informed, but I really don't know who it was.

24 Q. Somebody was informed. Do you know who informed that somebody?

25 Did you personally or did somebody from the Crisis Staff?

Page 19816

1 A. I've just said that I really don't know when this happened, who

2 did it. I suppose that somebody from the Crisis Staff sent the

3 information about the situation. I repeat, it is impossible to take hold

4 of all those details because those details changed by the day, even by the

5 hour, and as to who went to whom, the information was given, it's very

6 difficult to say with any degree of reliability at this moment.

7 Q. I take it that your answer is the same if I were to ask you,

8 Mr. Pasic, who at the republic level did you or members of the Crisis

9 Staff inform about the removal of the Muslims from Blagaj.

10 A. Firstly, we cannot talk about the removal of Muslims from Blagaj,

11 and I already answered that I don't remember when they were informed. I

12 believe that, as I've already told you, there was -- there were means of

13 communications but there was not enough communication and this is

14 something that I was personally affected by, the fact that there was not

15 enough communication, and I believe that many people in high positions did

16 not know the real information about what was going on. Even I didn't know

17 about some things that were happening in the Japra valley. It was

18 impossible to be aware of all those details at the time.

19 Q. Mr. Pasic, how far was your office from the rail head where the

20 Muslims were placed on the train cars?

21 A. Approximately ten or 11 kilometres.

22 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Pasic, as a result of the removal of Muslims on

23 cattle cars, is it a fair statement to say that the majority of the Muslim

24 population in Bosanski Novi municipality was no longer present?

25 A. I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question. Can you repeat it.

Page 19817

1 Q. I'll be glad to. As a result of the events that we have been

2 talking about, the removal of Muslims on train cars from Bosanski Novi

3 municipality, the majority of the Muslim population was removed. The

4 majority of the Muslim population from your municipality was removed.

5 A. Well, no. They were not removed, not a majority, not a minority.

6 Those who left, I really don't have any reliable information, but if we

7 are talking about the total number of Muslim population in the

8 municipality of Novi Grad, then we are talking about a smaller number of

9 people who left the municipality of Novi Grad during that period. I would

10 like to say that there were some 14.000 to 14.500 Muslims residing in Novi

11 Grad and only a small number of them left, maybe 2 or 3.000,

12 approximately. I suppose that that's how many there were.

13 Q. Now, let's focus on the approximately 750 men who were on those

14 trains who were returned to Bosanski Novi. They were returned, I think,

15 on the 11th of June 1992.

16 You recall that, Mr. Pasic?

17 A. I remember that the male population that were loaded onto those

18 trains, returned. I don't know whether were 750 of them. I believe there

19 were not as many. I can't say how many. I know that they returned from

20 the direction of Doboj and that they arrived in Novi Grad, Bosanski Novi.

21 Q. Now, that, Mr. Pasic, I am assuming that that was quite a surprise

22 to you and to members of the Crisis Staff, and therefore my question to

23 you, Mr. Pasic, is: Having received these men back into your

24 municipality, who did you contact as to why they had been returned? When

25 I say "you," Mr. Pasic, I'm referring to you and/or members of the Crisis

Page 19818

1 Staff.

2 A. I've already said that this was news to us. This was not

3 envisaged, we didn't know that this would happen. I believe that the

4 information was received from the railway company. As the train

5 travelled, the communication followed. Train stopped after Doboj in the

6 direction of Maglaj, and there these people --

7 Q. I don't need the details about what happened to the men. I asked

8 you, Mr. Pasic, who, once the men returned to Bosanski Novi municipality,

9 who in the leadership level of the ARK, and who in the leadership level of

10 the republic government level, did you contact, if anyone, to discuss the

11 return of those men?

12 A. I was just going to say that we were left to our own means and we

13 had to come up with adequate solutions on our own. We were at a

14 stalemate. It was a fait accompli. We didn't know what to do when these

15 people returned.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, let me stop you again. Why not answer the

17 question? Did you contact anyone at the higher level? Yes or no. You or

18 one of the members of the Crisis Staff.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't think I did, and I don't

20 remember that anybody from the Crisis Staff did.

21 JUDGE ORIE: That fully answers the question. Please proceed,

22 Mr. Harmon.


24 Q. Now, you testified, Mr. Pasic, that you personally never went to

25 the stadium to see where the -- Mlakve stadium where these men ultimately

Page 19819

1 were detained. The Trial Chamber has heard evidence in this case, Mr.

2 Pasic, that there was insufficient food for those detainees at the

3 stadium, there were no blankets, there were two toilets, there was no

4 soap, no hot water, no medical care, there were random beatings of the

5 Muslim detainees, there were humiliations. The Court has heard evidence

6 in this case of those detainees signaling SOS signals to across the river

7 into Croatia, to UNPROFOR troops, has heard the testimony of at least one

8 witness who lost 20 kilograms during his stay in the Mlakve stadium.

9 Mr. Pasic, what steps did you and members of the Crisis Staff, take to

10 ensure the well-being of the Muslim men who were detained in the stadium?

11 If you could just list the steps that you personally took or members of

12 the Crisis Staff took.

13 MR. JOSSE: Could I ask why that question required all the detail

14 that is within it? The question could simply have been what steps were

15 taken, et cetera. If my learned friend is going to have the detail, then

16 he should put it to the witness and ask whether he can comment upon it.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Harmon, you should first ask the witness

18 whether he was aware of the situations. And then Mr. Josse, if I just may

19 say one more word about this witness, if it's not explained in quite some

20 detail to him what is meant with the question - so the word "well-being"

21 might have been misunderstood about - it gives rise to a lot of other

22 fields. And Mr. Harmon, by the examples, at least specified what kind of

23 well-being he was interested in.


25 Q. Mr. Pasic, were you aware of those circumstances as I described

Page 19820

1 them, that applied -- that affected the Muslim detainees at the stadium?

2 Were you aware of that?

3 A. I was not aware of the circumstances that you listed and I don't

4 think that the circumstances were such. I've already said what treatment

5 those people received and why they were at the stadium, so I wouldn't

6 agree what you said in your question, that part of your question. I never

7 received any such information.

8 Q. The second part of my question, Mr. Pasic, was what affirmative

9 steps did you personally take or did members of the Crisis Staff take to

10 ensure and to monitor the well-being of the men who were detained at the

11 stadium? If you could just answer that specific question, please.

12 A. As for the well-being of these people, and for security reasons,

13 they were placed in the stadium. They were not safe because of the

14 paramilitary formations.

15 Secondly, these people were treated in a humane way and the staff

16 of the Territorial Defence was in charge of that. I don't know anything

17 about the operative matters, but I was informed that they received food

18 from the barracks where the troops were billeted and that they shared

19 their food. They were even -- they were even allowed to receive food from

20 their families, even some Serbs who had friends among those Muslims

21 brought either food or clothes so to the stadium. This was allowed. The

22 Mlakve stadium is in the direction of Krupa, and for objective reasons,

23 they could not send SOS signals across the Una River because they would

24 not have been visible. So somebody must have been -- misinformed you

25 about all those things because they are just not true.

Page 19821

1 Q. The question I asked you was what affirmative steps did you

2 personally take or did members of the Crisis Staff take to ensure and to

3 monitor the well-being of the men who were detained at the stadium.

4 That's my question.

5 A. I believe I've answered your question fully.

6 Q. Is the answer to the question --

7 A. I can clarify, if you want me to.

8 Q. Did you --

9 JUDGE ORIE: I understood the answer to the question to be that

10 care was taken that everything humanely needed would be provided to those

11 in the stadium but that you have no operational details to your knowledge.

12 Is that correct understanding?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it wasn't prepared in advance,

14 if you're thinking of some preparation. There couldn't have been any

15 preparation, as I said, because as far as we were concerned, this was a

16 novelty.

17 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not talking about preparations. First of all,

18 I'm summarising your testimony. And I do understand that you have no

19 personal knowledge of ordering bread to be sent there or clothes to be

20 sent there or soap to be sent there; that you were informed that

21 everything would be taken care of. Is that a correct understanding,

22 without knowing any further details?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That's precisely what I wanted

24 to say and what in fact I did say.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Harmon, please continue.

Page 19822


2 Q. At the time, Mr. Pasic, that the men were being detained at the

3 Mlakve stadium, the entire zone of the 1st Krajina Corps, including

4 Bosanski Novi, was under military control. Isn't that a fact?

5 A. No, that's not correct.

6 MR. HARMON: If, Your Honour, we could -- the next exhibit, if we

7 could turn to tab 23, this is Prosecution Exhibit 193, I've highlighted

8 the portion of this document during the recess and it has been shown to

9 Mr. Pasic. So I will refer Your Honours to two passages in this document.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, did you have an opportunity to read the

11 relevant documents and especially the portions highlighted by Mr. Harmon?

12 Mr. Harmon.

13 MR. HARMON: This document, P193, is a 1st Krajina Corps command

14 military secret, dated the 14th of June 1992, submitted to the Serbian

15 Republic Army Main Staff, and it is signed by Major General Momir Talic.

16 I direct Your Honours' attention to the first complete paragraph,

17 five lines from the bottom of that paragraph, where it says: "The entire

18 zone of responsibility is fully under control." And then, Your Honours, I

19 would like to direct Your Honours -- well, actually, let me then ask the

20 witness.

21 Q. Witness Pasic, do you disagree with Mr. -- with General Talic's

22 assessment that he forwarded to the Main Staff of the VRS?

23 A. That's right. I don't agree. In the case of the Novi Grad

24 municipality. I can't speak for the others. I'm not placed to do so.

25 Q. Now, in fact, these people who were kept in the stadium were not

Page 19823

1 permitted to return to their villages. That's correct, isn't it,

2 Mr. Pasic?

3 A. No, that's not correct. I've already spoken about that matter. I

4 said that for security reasons, they were placed there and that there was

5 the danger of their lives being jeopardised by paramilitaries, so not the

6 Territorial Defence staff but the small groups of people who were out of

7 control, who couldn't be controlled because it was a large area, and we

8 couldn't provide their security, and I've already said that five or ten

9 times.

10 Q. My question to you was they were not permitted to return to their

11 villages, were they, Mr. Pasic?

12 A. That's not so. That's not so.

13 Q. They were permitted to return to their villages, Mr. Pasic? Is

14 that your evidence?

15 A. I don't know whether you understood me. I told you the reasons

16 why, when they came from Doboj, for what reasons they were put up in the

17 stadium. So I repeat, it wasn't a question of permitting or not

18 permitting people to go to their village, it was a case of a security

19 situation and how far it was safe for the people to return to their houses

20 and homes or to be in some other place.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, a clear question for you: Who decided

22 whether or not to take the risk to be subject to any violence of these

23 paramilitary groups? Did you say, "Go home if you want, but please be

24 aware that it's dangerous over there," or did you say, "For security

25 reasons, we will not allow you to go home because it's too dangerous over

Page 19824

1 there"? Which one of the two?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't do either of those two

3 things. The Crisis Staff, I think, together with the centre for public

4 security, that is to say the police, and the TO staff, was faced with a

5 situation that it had to take some decision, but what, they didn't know

6 themselves. And a solution was sought, something that was most suitable

7 and most acceptable, and which at that point in time would be the least

8 painful. Now, I don't know who made the proposal but the proposal anyway

9 was that it would be dangerous for these people to go back to their houses

10 because they couldn't provide -- the TO couldn't provide any security or

11 guarantees, nor was the police able to issue those guarantees, so it was

12 for those reasons. So neither question was put the way you put it. The

13 only question was how to provide security for these people.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, if they wanted to go to their villages,

15 would they be allowed or were they allowed to go there? Yes or no.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have information because

17 those people already wanted to go to Doboj. I didn't have information as

18 to whether they wanted to go back to their own houses or not, and they

19 didn't know whether they were going. This was something they couldn't

20 foresee, just like we couldn't foresee it. So this is something that

21 those people didn't know about at that time, nor did we know what was

22 going to happen.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Again, whether they could foresee it, yes or no.

24 Someone could have told them, they could have thought about certain risks.

25 Now, please, a clear answer, unless you say, "I don't know," then of

Page 19825

1 course you don't know. Were they allowed to go to their homes if they

2 wanted to do that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already said, I think, I

4 don't know whether that question was asked of those people. I wasn't

5 there. I wasn't present. I don't know if anybody asked them that.

6 JUDGE ORIE: So you don't know -- well, first of all, they could

7 have asked those who were in charge of their safety, but what I do

8 understand is that you do not know whether they ever asked to go home,

9 whether they were ever offered an opportunity to go home; you just don't

10 know.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I do know is that the majority

12 of those people, when they arrived from Doboj and were located at the

13 stadium, that immediately, or two or three days later, that most of those

14 people was released. But not to their houses. They were put up with

15 their friends in town because there were some measure of safety and

16 security there rather than in the villages where they lived, in the Japra

17 valley. So most of the people were released to go and stay with family or

18 friends and there were even some Serbs who provided security and safety

19 for them and refuge for them in their own homes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.


22 Q. Mr. Pasic, let me direct your attention then to another paragraph

23 that's found in P193. It's a paragraph which is -- Your Honours, on page

24 3, the paragraph directly above subpart 3 of the document. You've had a

25 chance to see this, Mr. Pasic. Let me read this: "The most difficult

Page 19826

1 situation concerns the Muslim and Croat refugees in the area of AR

2 Krajina, their security and the provision of food. The attempt to expel

3 them to Central Bosnia failed because of transportation difficulties and

4 their resistance to leaving their places of residence."

5 Mr. Pasic, the reason the Muslims were kept and detained in Mlakve

6 stadium was in order to find a solution to their expulsion from your

7 municipality. Isn't that the case?

8 A. No, it isn't.

9 Q. The men who remained in the Mlakve stadium until the 23rd of July

10 1992, we are informed in this -- through evidence in this case, Mr. Pasic,

11 were released only after they signed a document saying, one, they wouldn't

12 return to Bosanski Novi, and two, they either exchanged their property or

13 gave it -- or forfeited it to the municipality. Are you aware of that

14 type of a document, Mr. Pasic?

15 A. That type of document, as you've just presented to us, I don't

16 know about. What I do know is that people sold or exchanged their

17 property and solved their property status, but that they signed a piece of

18 paper saying they wouldn't return, I don't know about that. Let me

19 repeat, I think this was a subject of discussion where the Crisis Staff

20 allowed people to move out voluntarily, and I think that the Crisis Staff,

21 for those reasons, asked that they confirm this, that they were leaving of

22 their own free will, as they had indeed asked to do, and that they should

23 settle their property status. That is to say, what they weren't going to

24 take with them, they should deal with. And so during the conflicts and

25 after the conflicts, through the paramilitaries formations in the Japra

Page 19827

1 valley, some of the property was destroyed, and the Crisis Staff

2 considered -- we considered, the Crisis Staff considered -- that it was

3 possible if they -- impossible if they moved out, it was impossible to

4 safeguard their property, that the municipal authorities could safeguard

5 their property. And so for that reason they were asked to deal with their

6 property in some way if they wished to leave the area. So we couldn't

7 give them guarantees that would be able to look after and save their

8 property, but if they were able to find a solution to their property

9 problems, whether by selling it or exchanging it, then the possibility was

10 there to save their property until such time as they should return. So

11 this form existed by which they solved their property status and property

12 problems in this way.

13 Q. Mr. Pasic, on approximately the --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, Judge Hanoteau would have a question.

15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. This stadium, now we are

16 going around and around on this matter. We have been going around and

17 around for several minutes. I would like to know, where was this stadium?

18 Was it out of the town or was it within the centre of the town?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was out of town, about

20 three to four kilometres away from the centre of town.

21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And your own profession, your own

22 occupation, was it in town, downtown?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And you have found yourself close

25 to this stadium? At any moment, have you been close to this stadium?

Page 19828

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I went to work from the

2 opposite direction, the opposite part of town, so I didn't have to pass by

3 that part of town, and I've already emphasised that I didn't go to the

4 stadium because that part of town, the -- or rather, the operative part

5 was conducted by the TO staff and by the police. So mostly that part was

6 under the Territorial Defence staff so that I myself really didn't, during

7 that period of time, when the people were there, go there.

8 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Because you didn't have a

9 permission to do so? There was a permission needed to do so?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know whether I needed

11 any authorisation or permission to -- permission, to be quite frank, but

12 let me repeat, in view of the problems that cropped up on a daily basis,

13 there was a sort of division of work in that part of town so that I didn't

14 feel the need, I myself, to appear there. I don't know how I could have

15 contributed with my presence at the stadium, if I had appeared there

16 myself. So I believed and trusted the people who did that part of the

17 work, and let me repeat, it was the Territorial Defence staff that saw to

18 that and all the operational matters; food, water, accommodation, and all

19 the rest of it and the distribution thereof. So it wasn't my job and I

20 didn't have to tour the stadium, and that it would have been impossible

21 for me to go around all these segments and see to all these things.

22 Either theoretically or practically, it wasn't feasible, for everything

23 that was happening at that time, for me to see it personally as president

24 of the Crisis Staff or experience it or take part in it. I think that was

25 impossible.

Page 19829

1 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. Precisely. So again the

2 same question concerning the transfer of the Muslims by train. Could you

3 see how -- how this train was formed, constituted? Where did it happen?

4 Was it at the station, the railway station proper? The convoy started

5 from where? Where did the train start from?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already stated that I wasn't

7 present, that the train left from the Blagaj station, which is

8 approximately ten or 11 kilometres away from the centre, roughly - you can

9 measure the distance, of course - but it was the Blagaj, and that's where

10 those people boarded the [inaudible], and it was the Territorial Defence

11 staff that was in charge of that part of the operation. I think it was a

12 man in fact by the name of Radoslav Sekulic, and I think his post was

13 Chief of Staff of the TO. He was the operative man there, but let me

14 repeat again I myself wasn't present, and I've already said that.

15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] And if you had had the curiosity

16 or the wish or the will to see how things were going on, would it have

17 been possible for you to go and see how the train, the convoy was

18 constituted, and which way -- how things were going on? Did you have

19 physically the possibility to go and see how things were going?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think physically in one way

21 or another it wasn't safe or secure to go because, as I say, there were

22 things happening every day and any journey was a risk. You put your life

23 at risk. So that I would have been exposed to the same situation even if

24 I had wanted to go. I would have run a danger in going from any side.

25 Yes, there was the danger because there was a war on, after all, and the

Page 19830

1 regular units bore weapons and certain small paramilitary groups would

2 intercept cars on the roads, and Serbs on the roads even, and there was

3 this great risk of travelling anywhere at that time.

4 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Do you consider that these Muslim

5 families and these Muslims, as your co-citizens?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. I considered them to be

7 my own citizens regardless of their ethnicity. This wasn't a situation

8 that I had prepared or I had the power of decision-making, and you

9 couldn't control certain things. So, of course, quite normally we were

10 faced in the situation when we were brought into danger ourselves. In the

11 centre of town we were endangered, where the Crisis Staff was located and

12 the municipality building was located, so there were situations like that

13 too. But let me repeat, you couldn't control everything, nor could you

14 tour all these sectors of town and be on the spot in different localities,

15 so I wasn't there myself and I wasn't present during that event either.

16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I would simply like to know,

17 Mr. Pasic, you had responsibilities in those days, administrative

18 responsibilities, political responsibilities, which were important. Your

19 co-citizens, and I'm now speaking of the Muslims, and you do call them

20 that way, your co-citizens, were in a situation which was extremely

21 difficult and probably twice; when there was this departure by convoy, by

22 train, and later for others in this stadium. Don't you think, may a judge

23 wonder about the fact that you did not, because you had certain powers,

24 that you didn't take a decision or make a decision to gather people from

25 the military or people from the TO who could have protected you and in the

Page 19831

1 case you would have wanted to see on the spot what was going on? Couldn't

2 it be a bit strange, a bit surprising, when you have 700 people who are

3 kept within a stadium, when you've got several thousand people who are put

4 on a train and those are your co-citizens and you have responsibilities,

5 may I be surprised that you haven't done everything you could to go and

6 check and control what was going on?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you couldn't say that, if I

8 followed your question correctly, that I was quite indolent towards any of

9 this, but let me repeat I had no special authorisation, nor special tasks,

10 and quite simply physically it was impossible for me, as the president of

11 the Crisis Staff, to tour the whole terrain. That's one point.

12 The second point is this: I wasn't alone in the municipality.

13 There were other very important and shall I say key functions of these

14 people, such as the TO staff and headquarters, the police. So these were

15 operative things where the chief of police should appear first, the

16 commander of the TO, and some other persons of that format - the civilian

17 police, for example, or the army - to create law and order. That's what

18 we asked them to do and that's the task that they did do. So that it

19 wasn't up to me at that point in time, if I may say so. I don't know what

20 I would do now, but let me repeat, I was not either at the stadium or the

21 village of Blagaj because I considered that it would be the people whose

22 operative job it was to do that, that they would do that better than I

23 could ever do, so my presence would not have contributed to anything. I

24 would just have been a passive observer, I wouldn't have been able to

25 contribute anything, and that's why I thought it was superfluous for me to

Page 19832

1 appear there as some sort of passive observer. I might have been

2 subjective in a situation like that and I don't know what decision I would

3 have made or could have made because I said at the beginning that I don't

4 understand strategic military matters. I'm not well versed in matters

5 concerning the army. I was just a regular soldier in the army. So

6 certain things in that part of town, when it came to operative matters,

7 the police, the army, I really wasn't -- I didn't interfere in things like

8 that now did I have the need to meddle in anything like that. So let me

9 repeat, they were just operational matters that somebody had to do

10 pursuant to their post and position, such as members of the Crisis Staff,

11 and members of the Crisis Staff or also people from the police or from the

12 Territorial Defence. So it is for these reasons that I did not appear

13 there, I didn't go there because I considered it would be these people who

14 would do their -- this job quite naturally in the normal course of their

15 jobs, and you had to trust and have confidence in some people. If you

16 distrusted everything, then we could have done nothing in difficult

17 situations of that kind. So for many reasons there was no need for me to

18 visit these places and localities.

19 How shall I explain this to you? Well, let me say that I can't

20 say I wasn't worried by the problem, that it didn't concern me in a way

21 and that I didn't feel it emotionally. Of course it did. Of course it

22 was a difficult situation. Of course it was difficult to explain now, let

23 alone live through it and experience it in that year of 1991, but let

24 repeat, some things were impossible to do. You couldn't influence certain

25 things and you couldn't go and see all these things personally and take

Page 19833

1 part personally and make decisions personally or make conclusions

2 personally in every given situation. It was a great problem, that is

3 true, but let me repeat - and this is something that I said last time - in

4 talking to the representatives of the Muslim population, in a way I was in

5 the civilian portion and I sought solutions there, to do as much as

6 possible for those people so that they could in a painless way, in a

7 voluntary way, according to their request, should be allowed to leave, and

8 it was really their goal not to go to Central Bosnia, and I've already

9 said that and I don't want to repeat the reasons for that, their object

10 was Croatia. They wanted to go to Croatia and central Europe because

11 mostly they had friends and relatives already living and working there in

12 one way or another as guest workers, as we call them.

13 So let me repeat: I was focusing on this civilian part of the job

14 rather than the exclusively operative military part of the job. So

15 perhaps that's the reason. Now 13 years later, I don't want to seek any

16 justification for what happened, I'm just telling you what did happen.

17 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. So when you specify that

18 you were keeping to your civil responsibilities in general climate, which

19 is the one you've just described, in which sector do you consider you

20 should have limited any form of intervention from your part, as president

21 or chairman of the Crisis Staff? In which field or domain did you think

22 you had to act? What was -- if you had nothing to do with the security or

23 safety of your co-citizens and the way things were going on for the Muslim

24 part of the population, of your population?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I've understood the question

Page 19834

1 correctly, first let me say that I consider -- or you consider that I had

2 some far-ranging authorisation, which I didn't have. I didn't have any

3 special authorisation or competence. Unfortunately, I was not given those

4 by anyone. I didn't have them. And I wasn't able, I myself, to decide

5 one way or another on certain matters and make a decision myself. So it

6 wasn't a question of my own subjective or objective assessments. I

7 couldn't have been in that situation. I was never able, I myself, as

8 Radomir Pasic, to make a decision or conclusion without that question

9 having been considered by other members of the Crisis Staff to find an

10 adequate solution. We considered ourselves to be a team. It was team

11 work. Or let us call it a body, an organ which was there to find

12 solutions, and amongst ourselves we divided up the jobs, who was in charge

13 of what, doing what. So it was for these reasons that that is what

14 happened. Quite simply certain -- some people never appeared, just I

15 happened to appear for certain negotiations, but similarly I didn't appear

16 when some other matters were discussed or when some other things were

17 taking place. So there was this division in the Crisis Staff. I was just

18 the presiding officer of the Crisis Staff, and I wasn't able to decide one

19 way or another, if I liked something or didn't like something. And

20 sometimes on many matters I might not have agreed, but if that it was the

21 position taken by the majority, then of course I had to abide by that

22 decision and adopt the positions of the majority and the conclusions they

23 had made. I don't mean any essential issues but certain operative

24 matters. There might have been a number of ways in which something could

25 have been done and solved and I might not have agreed but it was the

Page 19835

1 position taken by the majority and I had to accept that.

2 So I myself did not have any special authorisations. I was a

3 member of the municipal assembly as president of the Crisis Staff, but as

4 I say, my remit was not above anybody else's authorisation or competence,

5 nor did I have any greater powers or force, political powers or anything

6 else. If anybody thinks I did, I really didn't. So I wasn't able to make

7 decisions, arbitrary or otherwise. Things like that just didn't happen

8 that way.

9 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I would have a few questions for the

11 witness.

12 Mr. Pasic, I have some questions. The questions are quite short.

13 I would like to receive short answers as well.

14 Did you ever visit the stadium prior to or after the events, even

15 after the war, the stadium we talked about?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was at the stadium before the war,

17 yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As far as the layout of that stadium is

19 concerned, is there a gallery for the spectators or for the public at all

20 sides of the stadium, or at one or two or three or four, so a built-up

21 constructed gallery for the spectators? Is that --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. On one side, there are stands

23 facing the Una River, the part of Croatia, and there is also a fence made

24 of cypresses that are a few metres high on the other side. So it's a

25 hedge, a cypress hedge, opposite the stands. And this is on the eastern

Page 19836

1 part of the stadium, in the direction of Vidorija and Javlaca [phoen].

2 This is the inner part of the city. This part is visible. It's open. It

3 is visible from one part of the town and it is not visible from the

4 direction of another part of the town --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, I just asked you at how many sides of the

6 stadium there was a gallery for the public. I do understand that it was

7 on one side. It was on one of the long sides of the -- of the football

8 ground, as usual in stadiums? Yes, and did I hear you say that it was on

9 the western side of the football ground, of the play ground itself?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would say it was north-west. It

11 was more to the west but one part of it was also to the north.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you said that -- you talked about the Una

13 River. What's the distance between the stadium and the Una River?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Una River is close, maybe 40 or

15 50 metres away from the stadium. Maybe not even that far. The river

16 bends here. It doesn't flow in a straight line, it makes a bend exactly

17 at that position.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You told us about this fence, a few metres

19 high. What should I think of, a few metres? Three metres, four metres,

20 two metres?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In addition to the stands, there was

22 also a hedge, a cypress hedge, which were a couple of metres high and very

23 dense, so one couldn't see through the -- this is what I was saying, so

24 this hedge was rather thick.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And at what side exactly was this hedge or this

Page 19837

1 fence? Was this opposite side of the spectators' gallery or same side?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was on one of the sides to the

3 north, as you are looking towards one part of Novi Grad. I believe that

4 this hedge was to the north as you look from that part of the town, and as

5 when you're looking from the stands, then it is north-west. The hedge

6 also curves a little and one part of it is on the opposite side as well,

7 but that opposite side is not as long as the main part of the hedge.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could this sketch be put on the ELMO. Madam Usher,

9 could you please assist me.

10 Madam Usher, could you please zoom out in such a way that the

11 whole of the sketch is visible. Or is that impossible? I think we --

12 I made a sketch, Mr. Pasic, of what seems to be a football ground.

13 I also made the sketch on the spectator gallery being on one long side of

14 the football ground. Could you indicate to me where we find the Una

15 River, even if you would like to -- is it to the right? Is it up? Is it

16 down? Is it to the left? Could you tell us where the Una River is at a

17 distance of some 40 metres.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you'll allow me, I could draw it

19 on this paper, if you will allow me to do that.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would allow you to do that. Have you got a

21 pen there? Yes.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Una would make a bend here.

23 This is the direction of its flow. This is the Una River. Here there is

24 an auxiliary stadium. This is where the Una is closer to the stadium.

25 These are the stands, if I understand the word well, and this is a

Page 19838

1 semi-circle behind the stands. Maybe this is not a good scale. The

2 distance is somewhat bigger here, but this is where the hedge is, also in

3 a semi-circle. This is the cypress hedge which is a couple of metres

4 high. And if you're looking in this direction, this is Novi Grad, and

5 this part here, I believe this is the southern part of the stadium, this

6 is the north-western part, and this should be the eastern part of the

7 stadium. This here is the road leading to Bosanska Krupa in this

8 direction, and approximately here, this is where the main entrance to the

9 stadium was, and this is where the stadium was open, and here you see the

10 hedge which fenced the stadium off. And I repeat that this is where the

11 area was the highest. I believe that the stands are some 15 to 20 metres

12 high, according to my estimate, and this part was closed off or fenced

13 off, and I don't think that it should be -- could have been seen from

14 anywhere - maybe from a plane - and this part here could be seen from the

15 road, and here, this part was slightly turned to face south-east. You

16 couldn't see anything from the houses, because there are some houses here.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, I said that I would put short questions to

18 you.

19 Let me take over and take you to the matters I found most -- find

20 most relevant. Could you please move the sketch a tiny little bit down so

21 that we see the upper part of it. Could you tell me how the river Una

22 continues. Because it stops halfway the page.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Again, it bends here and makes

24 another semi-circle and starts flowing in a straight line in this

25 direction. The Bosnian side is somewhat narrower and this is where it

Page 19839

1 widens up. There are some fields here. But down there, it is a bit

2 narrower.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do I take it that all on the right side of the

4 stadium, that's all Bosnian or Republika Srpska territory; is that

5 correct?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is Republika Srpska, and

7 this is Croatia.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the Croatian side, are there any hills or is

9 it hilly, or is it all flat?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The bank along the Una is flat. I

11 don't know how far it is flat, but I would say that it is more flat on the

12 other side than it is on this side. That area over there, across the

13 river, is flatter. There are some hills over there but they are not very

14 high.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Could they establish a line of sight between the

16 stadium and these hills?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we look from here, it is

18 impossible. It is impossible to see anything because of the stands, which

19 are rather high. So if you're looking from here, in that direction, you

20 can't see anything but the stands and the sky above them. The line of

21 vision is non-existing here, and if you tried to see the ground, you

22 couldn't.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And in the direction I called up, would there

24 have been a line of sight to the hills on the other side of the river?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you referring to this part here?

Page 19840

1 Is this what you're talking about?

2 JUDGE ORIE: I'm talking about if you would draw a line

3 approximately - I'm not inviting you to do it - but parallel to the stand,

4 just in the direction up there, it crosses the river a bit further up,

5 isn't it?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that again you can't see

7 anything because there is a hedge here, and here, behind the goal, there

8 is a large net so as to prevent the balls flying over the fence, and again

9 the height is about some ten or 15 metres, so one could not go anywhere

10 beyond the stadium in this direction because this is all fenced off, so to

11 speak. This is a sports stadium, a football stadium.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Is it still fenced up? Is the hedge still there?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. You can still see it there.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness be shown P82. I took out some of

15 what seems to be comment on the -- apart from what I would say the rather

16 neutral ones.

17 Could you please have a look at that. It will be put on the ELMO.

18 Oh, it's -- no. It's supposed to -- yes, could you please cover the text

19 that --

20 Mr. Pasic, the green spots at the end of the stand for the

21 spectators, is that Croatian territory or is that Republika Srpska

22 territory? Let's just be sure that there is no misunderstanding. That is

23 the green spot above the head of the lady where, on the top of that hill,

24 there seems to be a wooded area, is that Croatian or is that Republika

25 Srpska?

Page 19841

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you're referring to this, I

2 believe that this is Republika Srpska.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it seems that the river you made on the

4 sketch has moved a bit, isn't it? Because this is a line which is not

5 parallel to the stand but goes rather to the left of the line of sight,

6 and if you take a similar line on your sketch, I end up in Croatia.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not a geography graduate but if

8 you had a map of Novi Grad, you could see it and dispel all your dilemmas.

9 You would see the actual situation. Nothing can be moved. Nothing can be

10 hidden. It is still visible today. And I believe that you can obtain the

11 hundred per cent correct facts either from a map or if you go there and

12 take photos. All this would provide you with the only correct picture of

13 the situation.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, you're perfectly right that on the basis

15 of just a river put there on the spot by hand, that one could not draw any

16 final conclusions.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, may I take it that detailed maps are

19 available of this area?

20 MR. HARMON: I'll be glad to check, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because the Chamber would like, in order to

22 verify the conclusions drawn on the basis of a sketch which, of course,

23 could not be binding to the extent that the exact position of the river

24 would be remembered by the witness but I take it that the Una River has

25 not changed its bed over recent years and usually football stadiums are

Page 19842

1 well indicated on maps, and even directions are very often. So therefore

2 the Chamber would very much like to receive such additional information.

3 But, of course, if the Defence would have any --

4 MR. HARMON: I'm looking, Your Honour, at a map --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Of course we would really need a detailed map as --

6 MR. HARMON: I'll make an inquiry, Your Honour.


8 MR. JOSSE: My only observation is I'm all in favour of that,

9 bearing in mind the exercise that the witness had been invited to carry

10 out.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, I would not just rely on how he

12 positioned the river but, of course, for the questions to be put to him, I

13 invited him to do it and it may well be that it's not fully consistent

14 with what we find on a map, so therefore it's worth to verify that on a

15 good map.

16 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I'm looking at the clock. It's 12.30.

18 It has been 12.30. In view of the time already taken in

19 cross-examination, what -- as a matter of fact, there is no time left, as

20 far as I'm aware of.

21 MR. HARMON: Your Honour is asking me how much time I have left?

22 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. I said that -- I started asking you how much

23 time you would still need and then I changed my question into an

24 observation, which is that, as far as I'm aware of, that there is no time

25 left.

Page 19843

1 MR. HARMON: I would kindly ask the Court to permit me to ask

2 approximately 15 minutes more of questions. There are some important

3 issues that I can cover very quickly.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, how much time would you need for

6 re-examination, approximately?

7 MR. JOSSE: Approximately half an hour.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Half an hour. Mr. Harmon you've got another ten

9 minutes, we'll then have a break, and Mr. Josse you'll have the time

10 remaining.

11 Then we first have to give a number to my sketch, I'm afraid.

12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be C-1, Your Honours.

13 JUDGE ORIE: C-1, and that's a sketch of a football ground, with

14 additional markings made by the witness, Mr. Pasic.

15 Mr. Harmon.


17 Q. Mr. Pasic, on the 20th, approximately the 20th of June, 1992, you

18 received a letter informing you that the mass transfer of population, mass

19 -- the forced mass transfer of population on purely ethnic or racial

20 basis has been declared a crime against humanity, and in fact, that wasn't

21 the only time you received that information; is that correct? You can

22 answer that question yes or no.

23 And I'm referring Your Honours and Mr. Pasic to the exhibit in tab

24 24.

25 MR. JOSSE: Sorry to be pedantic. He's not referring Mr. Pasic to

Page 19844

1 it. The question is fair enough. If he wants to refer Mr. Pasic to the

2 document, Mr. Pasic needs to look at the document.

3 MR. HARMON: I believe Mr. Pasic testified about this statement

4 already, that he had received such a letter. I was trying to be -- assist

5 the witness. Perhaps the witness can answer the question yes or no and I

6 can move on.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first -- Mr. Harmon, you are -- you said

8 approximately the 20th of June, and then you refer us to tab 24, which

9 contains several documents.

10 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. The second document is a letter

11 directed to Mr. Pasic, dated the 20th of June. I believe he's testified

12 about that. And the first document in there is a --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see that.

14 MR. HARMON: -- 22nd of June --

15 JUDGE ORIE: There is a letter of the 20th of June, Mr. Pasic.

16 Perhaps let's -- did you receive a letter at that moment with the content

17 as just referred to by Mr. Harmon?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please jog my memory? I

19 don't know what this is about. There have been a number of letters. I

20 don't know what letter you're referring to.


22 Q. Mr. Pasic, if you turn to tab 24 in front of you, you'll see a

23 copy of the translation of that letter in B/C/S.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Does the witness have the right -- it's 449, last

25 three digits, I take it, Mr. Harmon.

Page 19845

1 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. I don't believe the witness has

2 the correct document in front of him.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be put on the ELMO to start with. Its last

4 three digits of the number at the top, at the right-hand side, is 449.

5 And the letter starts at the second part of that page.

6 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I can just make a copy. I can tear my

7 copy out of my exhibit and just give it to the witness.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

9 MR. HARMON: Just pass this to the witness.

10 Q. Witness, we direct your attention to what the usher is handing

11 you. You'll see this is a letter addressed to you, and I direct your

12 attention to the fifth paragraph.

13 JUDGE ORIE: That's on page 4 of the B/C/S. Have you found it,

14 Mr. Pasic?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm looking. I'm trying to read.


17 Q. Mr. Pasic, did you receive a copy of this letter?

18 A. You mean then? At the time?

19 Q. Yes.

20 A. I believe I did. There were a few of them, but I believe that

21 this letter was one among those that reached me. I can't be sure of that.

22 I spoke with Mr. Kirudja and --

23 Q. And Mr. Pasic, the message that was expressed in that particular

24 fifth paragraph is something that you had been informed of earlier in your

25 previous contacts with international representatives. Is that correct or

Page 19846

1 not correct?

2 A. I don't know what you want me to say is correct or not, what he

3 wrote or what I replied. I really -- I'm aware of the fact --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Please listen to the question. The question was

5 whether in your earlier contacts reference was made to the same issue that

6 is the -- that the forced mass transfer of population on ethnic or racial

7 basis has been declared a crime against humanity, whether that issue was

8 raised in your previous contacts with your interlocutors.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not this in this way.

10 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I direct your attention then in the same

11 tab, the tab 123, to the letter dated the 22nd of June, and particularly

12 the second paragraph. I won't go into it further at this point because I

13 have limited time.

14 MR. JOSSE: I object. I'll deal with it another time but I take

15 objection to that sort of comment in the course of evidence. This is

16 cross-examination, not speech time.

17 MR. HARMON: And in the -- let me -- I want to spend one minute on

18 this topic if I can't get the answer on this. Mr. Pasic, this document

19 that I have referred to that is in the same tab says as follows: "Please

20 find attached a letter addressed to the mayor of Bosanski Novi by the

21 representative of an international organisation. This letter,

22 particularly the fifth paragraph, is designed to reinforce a message that

23 has been repeatedly -- that has repeatedly been orally conveyed to him and

24 to his colleagues in Dvor."

25 Do you accept that or not accept that, Mr. Pasic?

Page 19847

1 A. I cannot answer a question put in this way. You're not asking me

2 anything specific. There are some things that I agree with but I cannot

3 answer with a yes or a no. I can't.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pasic, you just said that -- and your answer was

5 a bit vague. When I asked you whether the issue was raised with you

6 before, then you said no, not in that way, or not in the same way. Now

7 Mr. Harmon confronts you with a letter in which Mr. Kirudja sends a copy

8 of the letter we earlier discussed, and says that the letter is designed

9 to reinforce a message that has repeatedly been orally conveyed to him and

10 to his colleagues in Dvor. So Mr. Kirudja is saying I raised the issue a

11 couple of times with Mr. Pasic. Now, do you accept that in view of your

12 previous answer, or do you not accept that? That's the question.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I accept that there were

14 conversations and that we did discuss this topic and that I am familiar

15 with certain aspects of the international law and what is acceptable and

16 what is not, but Kirudja could write whatever he wanted to write. It's

17 his right to do so.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's not -- so do I have to understand

19 your earlier answer to be, yes, the matter was raised at earlier

20 conversations although perhaps not exactly in the same way?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. More or less that is the case.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber would have preferred to receive

23 that answer right away instead of after three other questions.

24 Please proceed.


Page 19848

1 Q. I want to direct your attention, Mr. Pasic, to the transfer of

2 Muslims that occurred on the 22nd of July 1992. Specifically, Mr. Pasic,

3 on the 22nd of July, a large number of Muslims, as you testified earlier,

4 left in a convoy. In July of 1992, the situation on the ground, the

5 military situation on the ground, was stable and there were no -- the

6 military had complete control over Bosanski Novi; is that correct?

7 Talking about on the 15th of July, a week before the mass transfer of

8 people. I showed you a document, I highlighted a document, you had an

9 opportunity to review it during the recess.

10 And I'm referring, Your Honours, to tab 26.

11 A. I've already said that the situation was never under the full

12 control. It was never safe. And that applies to the time that you're

13 asking me about. But it was to a certain extent safer but not so safe

14 that anybody could provide any guarantees about the matters that I've

15 already spoken about.

16 Q. I'd like to direct Your Honours' attention to the second

17 paragraph, the first sentence, which I will read very quickly: "Assessing

18 the current --" This is a first -- 1 Krajina Corps report, dated the 15th

19 of July, directed -- it's a military secret. And it is relating to the

20 current political and security situation in the 1 KK zone of

21 responsibility. This is signed by Colonel Milutin Vukelic. Second

22 paragraph, first sentence, says: "Assessing the current political and

23 security situation in SRBH, one can no longer speak of situation of crisis

24 armed conflict and crisis spots."

25 Bottom of page 1, starting at five lines --

Page 19849

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, we have established now, I think, four,

2 five, six, seven or eight times, that Mr. Pasic's perception of what is

3 secure, what is safe, what is militarily controlled, is -- was and is not

4 the same as from the military commanders, and whether this is a difference

5 of understanding of the facts or whether it's a different concept of what

6 is secure and what is safe is still to be seen, but I don't know whether

7 there is any need to go for the eighth, ninth or the tenth time.

8 MR. HARMON: I was trying to illustrate to the Court the continuum

9 of thinking on the part of the 1 KK in respect of the security situation

10 because this now is further on. But let me get to the points that I'd

11 like to make.

12 Q. It was in this context, Mr. Pasic, that you conducted urgent

13 negotiations with UNPROFOR in respect of the transfer of people that

14 occurred on the 22nd of July 1992, and in your testimony, in your direct

15 examination, you said that you had participated personally in negotiations

16 with UN relief officials, including Jean-Claude Concolato, and that those

17 discussions had taken place on the 18th of July. Correct?

18 A. Yes. There were negotiations. Whether they were on the 18th of

19 July or not, I don't know, but there were negotiations, yes.

20 Q. In fact, in those negotiations the UN relief officials, Mr. Pasic,

21 wanted the Muslims to be able to return to their homes and you refused.

22 A. That the Muslims wanted to return to their homes? Is that what

23 you said? Have I understood your question properly?

24 Q. I said that the UN relief officials wanted the Muslims to be able

25 to be returned to their homes, and you refused. Is that correct?

Page 19850

1 A. No. I wasn't in a position to refuse anything like that. That

2 didn't come under my competence. I just spoke about the situation, and I

3 proposed to the people from the UN, the representatives of the

4 commissioner, that they should talk to the Muslim representatives and the

5 families of people where we would not be present so that they could

6 convince themselves of the actual state of affairs, to see whether they

7 really did want to leave or not leave, whether they were being forced by

8 anybody, or whether something else was happening altogether. So it was

9 the representatives, and Mr. Jensen, I think his name was, Jean-Claude,

10 the other man, that these people -- and there was a third man, I don't

11 remember his name -- they were the ones that talked to me mostly, and they

12 became convinced, I think - and some people could confirm this - by the --

13 on the Muslim side. That they were convinced that --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I take it that you have some document you

15 can present that.

16 MR. HARMON: Yes, I can, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And then we'll finish, because even if I take off the

18 time I used, then we are well over the ten minutes.

19 MR. HARMON: Yes, this is my last series of questions, sir.



22 Q. In fact, Mr. Pasic, you refused the UN officials the opportunity

23 to meet with the Muslims. That's the case, isn't it, Mr. Pasic?

24 A. No, no. I asked -- I precisely asked them to ask to talk to the

25 Muslims. Not that I refused. I was the initiator of a talk like that,

Page 19851

1 that they should talk to them without my presence, without any

2 subjectivity on the part and in my person, if they had any suspicions

3 there. So I personally insisted that they themselves should talk to the

4 Muslims themselves, without my presence, and I repeat that. So the

5 question was put topsy-turvy. How it was was as I've just described it to

6 you.

7 Q. If I could return Your Honours' attention to the document that's

8 found in tab 27.

9 Mr. Pasic, tab 27, there is a document. I'm going to read

10 portions of it to you, Mr. Pasic. It relates to those discussions that

11 you had with Mr. Jean-Claude Concolato.

12 This is an Associated Press article, dated -- from Zagreb, dated

13 July 29th, and I'll read this to you, Mr. Pasic. "The United Nations was

14 coerced into taking part in the ethnic cleansing of a Bosnian city last

15 week when Serbs threatened harm to Muslims kept in a ghetto surrounded by

16 guards, a UN official said Wednesday. Jean-Claude Concolato harshly

17 criticisd Serbian authorities in the northern city of Bosanski Novi as he

18 prepared to leave the office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees in

19 Zagreb, which he has led since December 1991. 'We have been forced to

20 take part in this monstrous policy of ethnic cleansing,' Concolato said in

21 an interview with Associated Press. On July 23rd some 7.000 panicked

22 Muslims left Bosanski Novi with a population of about 40.000 in a UN

23 organised convoy with only the few belongings they could carry. They

24 arrived in Karlovac, Croatia, where many of them were taken in by Germany.

25 When Concolato went to Bosanski Novi on July 18th, he wanted to ensure

Page 19852

1 that the Muslims could stay in the homes which their families had held for

2 generations. He said he attempted to negotiate such an arrangement with

3 the city's Serbian mayor but the local authorities made it clear that the

4 Muslims could be in danger if they remained, Concolato said. On the next

5 day, a Muslim was killed by an unidentified gunman, and the following

6 night there were two explosions near the ghetto. 'I realised that those

7 incidents were an element in the negotiations,' with the Serb-dominated

8 local authorities, said Concolato. The Bosanski Novi mayor, who Concolato

9 identified as Pasic, 'kept repeating that if we did not take care of these

10 people, if we did not take them out, we, the United Nations, would be

11 responsible for bad things that could happen to them,' he said. Concolato

12 said that Pasic refused to guarantee the security of the Muslims on the

13 grounds that a civil war was going on. He also said -- he said he also

14 was refused permission to spend the night with the Muslim community. 'I

15 realised that we had been trapped and blackmailed,' said Concolato. He

16 said that the ghetto was guarded by uniformed soldiers and that the roads

17 into the corridor were blocked. He was unsure whether Muslims had been

18 forced into the ghetto or if they had gathered there voluntarily. 'I

19 realised probably the next step would be like in Sarajevo, to send in a

20 few shells on them,' said Concolato. 'There was a clear will to continue

21 the policy of ethnic cleansing.'"

22 That, Mr. Pasic, is the perception of Mr. Concolato, your

23 interlocutor in those negotiations. What do you say to his account?

24 MR. JOSSE: His alleged account.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, it is alleged account. It's --

Page 19853

1 MR. HARMON: Fine, his alleged account.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It is hearsay.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to say something

4 now?


6 Q. I asked you to comment on that account.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first see whether you -- it appears already

8 from a previous answer, that what the Chamber would expect, in view of

9 what we have listened to carefully, that you would deny the truth of what

10 was said in this newspaper article. If that's the case, please tell us.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what Mr. Concolato

12 wrote, and I don't remember this. The text is rather a lengthy one for me

13 to be able to answer in one sentence, but there were talks. Now, whether

14 the UN committed ethnic cleansing, I don't know. That's what

15 Mr. Concolato said. I can't say one way or another. I know what I myself

16 did. I know how much I worked and how much effort I put in to help those

17 people. Now, how this was assessed by the UN people is up to them. It's

18 their subjective assessment.

19 Now, whether this was written in such a way as to deal with one's

20 own dirty linen or to rid themselves of the blame, I don't know. I know

21 what happened and I've said what happened many times before this Tribunal.

22 I spoke about these negotiations and said that the intentions were really

23 honest. I see that there are some doubts, but I myself and the Crisis

24 Staff really did want to help those people sincerely and to ensure that

25 those who wanted to leave could leave in a civilised and dignified manner,

Page 19854

1 and that's what we asked the High Commissioner for Refugees to do, or

2 rather, the UN representatives that we've just mentioned. Now, what their

3 views and assessment of the situation was is not for me to comment.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, this -- I take it this was your last

5 question.

6 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I would have one exhibit that I would

7 like. It's a new exhibit, it's found at tab 31 and could be --

8 JUDGE ORIE: We have to finish with this witness. If it's a

9 contextual exhibit --

10 MR. HARMON: You could make it a contextual exhibit, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE ORIE: -- and then see whether it can be introduced and then

12 please inform Mr. Josse about it, and we will have the break as short as

13 possible. That means, if possible, 20 minutes.

14 Then, Mr. Josse, with the assistance of the interpreters and -- I

15 would like to finish today, even if it would be a couple of minutes later

16 than a quarter to 2.

17 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, if I may pass up a detailed map of the

18 city of Bosanski Novi, which also shows the football stadium.

19 JUDGE ORIE: We asked for that and I take it that such a map

20 isn't --

21 MR. JOSSE: I'll deal with that in my re-examination, and I'm

22 grateful to the Prosecution for that.

23 JUDGE ORIE: And then, if possible, the Chamber, in order to make

24 -- move things quickly, would there be any objection if the Chamber would

25 have already a look at this rather neutral document?

Page 19855

1 MR. JOSSE: Very good idea, if I might respectfully say.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you very much. Then we'll have a break

3 until 20 minutes past one.

4 --- Recess taken at 1.01 p.m.

5 --- On resuming at 1.25 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, you may proceed.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Josse:

8 Q. Mr. Pasic, we've all had a chance look at the map. The football

9 stadium is at the bottom left-hand corner, number 10. There is another

10 one. Excellent. Yes, I can see your finger is in the right place. My

11 only question is, bearing in mind the various questions that you were

12 asked by Mr. Harmon, and also by the learned Presiding Judge, does that

13 help you at all as to the visibility that's been alleged by some previous

14 witnesses - or at least one witness - in this case?

15 A. Yes. Now, this isn't what I drew, but yes, it's the right drawing

16 and I wanted to explain this curve in the river Una. If we look at the

17 right-hand side, the white is a flat area and part of Croatia, and the

18 other side is Republika Srpska.

19 JUDGE ORIE: We haven't got the map in front of us any more at

20 this moment, and at the same time we don't have the picture. Perhaps we

21 -- could the photograph that was P183, I think, be put on the ELMO again

22 so that we know what we are looking at.

23 MR. JOSSE: It's, for my part --

24 Q. Go on, Mr. Pasic, please.

25 A. Yes. If we look at the stalls, it's the left-hand side in the

Page 19856

1 map. That's the left-hand side. I think this left-hand part, there is a

2 branch of the river Una and a small island there on the left-hand side,

3 the Croatian side. Well, there is a sort of wooded area, not a real

4 forest or wood but quite tall trees, on both sides of the river Una, and

5 along the banks on both sides there are trees, a wood. So this is flat

6 land here, all the white space. I don't know how many metres, but, of

7 course, you could measure this and look at the scale of the map, which

8 will tell you how big this flat land is on the left-hand side of the Una,

9 and then afterwards, you get the hills - not very high hills - if we are

10 talking about the left-hand side, the left bank of the river Una in

11 Croatia, that's it. Is that enough? Is that sufficient? Or do you want

12 me to go on?

13 Q. I haven't got any more questions on this subject. I don't know

14 whether the Bench has.

15 JUDGE ORIE: It's not entirely clear what the witness tells us at

16 this moment. The green patch we talked about before, just above the head

17 of the lady, looking at the map, is it still your testimony that this is

18 on Republika Srpska territory?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's like this: If we look at it

20 from this side, that would be more visible and clearer. If it's this area

21 here where the town itself is located or across town, then it's about

22 seven or eight to ten kilometres and some hills behind, which might be in

23 this part too, downstream from town, or possibly it is the hills on the

24 left-hand side.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Is it still -- is it still Republika Srpska or does

Page 19857

1 the map change your mind?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I haven't changed my mind. I'm

3 just trying to think realistically as far as is possible. Well, I don't

4 know what side this was taken from, whether it was taken from top to

5 bottom or from some other side. It's difficult to say.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let me ask you --

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- on both sides.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- what makes it difficult to say? How could it be

9 on both sides? Could it be anything else but on the left side as on my

10 sketch of the football ground? Would you expect the spectators to look

11 away from the football?

12 Is there any disagreement between the parties? Mr. Josse? Is it

13 -- will it be part of the Defence case that this green patch is on the

14 Republika Srpska territory?

15 MR. JOSSE: I'm not in a position to help. I mean that being as

16 helpful as I can.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So then let's move on. Perhaps Mr. -- No,

18 let's just move on.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on.


22 Q. I want to change the subject completely, please, Mr. Pasic --

23 sorry. I want to change the subject completely, please, Mr. Pasic, and I

24 want to ask you about something you were first questioned in relation to

25 at the start of your cross-examination last year, and that's the document

Page 19858

1 variant A and B, found at tab 38 of the exhibit bundle. Could you turn to

2 tab 38, please. You don't have it in front of you. I think you had given

3 evidence to the effect that you had seen this document previously,

4 sometime in 1991-1992. Do you recall when you first saw it?

5 A. Well, I said that last time, that I can't be sure when I first saw

6 it, although I am acquainted with the document but I can't give you a

7 date. If I were to give you a date I would be lying because I don't

8 remember the exact date.

9 Q. Do you have any recollection of being at a meeting in Sarajevo

10 where it was handed out?

11 A. I spoke about that and said that I don't remember. There was

12 discussion about that issue last time. I really can't remember whether at

13 that meeting at the Holiday Inn hotel that happened or not. I can't

14 remember. I went to the Holiday Inn for meetings but privately as well,

15 quite apart from any politics for certain matters, so I knew the Holiday

16 Inn hotel, but I can't remember whether I attended that meeting.

17 Q. And to what extent did it play a part, if at all, in the way you

18 administered Novi Grad in 1992?

19 A. Well, it didn't play any part at all, more or less, if I can put

20 it that way. And as I said, in mid-April, roughly mid-April, the Crisis

21 Staff was established in 1992, and if you look at when this was brought

22 in, we didn't work according to these instructions or guidelines, because

23 before all those events, the authorities were functioning, and I said that

24 the majority power was held by the majority Serb population that lived

25 there, so in this division of power with the SDA, we received votes,

Page 19859

1 percentage-wise, at the elections that were held in 1990.

2 Q. Could you turn now to tab 5, which is P1025. A section of this

3 document was shown to you on the last occasion, or was put to you, to be

4 more accurate, on the last occasion. I want to take you through one or

5 two other parts of it, please. The second paragraph, which says, "In

6 view of its geographic and strategic position, Bosanski Novi has become

7 interesting to all of the warring parties, i.e., wartime and ideological

8 opponents. The extremist part of the SDA has proceeded to issue arms on a

9 massive scale to citizens of Muslim ethnicity prepared primarily to

10 execute any tasks entrusted to them by the SDA."

11 Is that a true comment?

12 A. Well, if I might be allowed to look at this part - I don't know

13 whose report this is, probably a free interpretation - yes, it did exist.

14 There was weaponry on -- on the part of the Muslim population, and the SDA

15 did have weapons before the conflict, and you could see this. When the

16 groups were disarmed, they did have army weapons, but as I've already

17 said, that part was done by the army, or rather, the TO staff and the

18 police. I did not take part in those events but I was informed and

19 probably some of those people could be better placed to tell you how much

20 weaponry was found and where and who was in charge of the weapons, because

21 I really didn't focus on that aspect because it didn't come under my

22 remit, but according to the responsible persons, there was this weaponry

23 that was in the hands of the Muslim population.

24 Q. In the third paragraph, there are a number of names of people

25 involved in paramilitary Muslim activity. Reading those names to

Page 19860

1 yourself, can you comment as to whether you have any knowledge as to the

2 truth of the assertions so far as those names are concerned.

3 A. Well, let me repeat, the information that I received and according

4 to it, it was these people first, and the security services informed us

5 that they were the people who were the main actors and protagonists of

6 that type of weaponry for those units and formations. So the people

7 enumerated here, mentioned here, are the same ones that I was led to

8 believe did that kind of thing.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hanoteau was wondering about the origin of this

11 document, which is --

12 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Harmon dealt with that on the last occasion. I

13 would have to --

14 JUDGE ORIE: If we --

15 MR. JOSSE: It's in the transcript, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: If we have overlooked that, then I apologise and

17 please proceed.


19 Q. Tab 10, please. First page. I want to deal with the sentence in

20 the middle of paragraph number 3, immediately after it says, in your

21 language, [B/C/S spoken], the sentence after that reads, "There have been

22 no armed conflicts in this territory, but the situation is extremely

23 tense." This document is dated the 15th of May of 1992. Is it true that

24 there had been no armed conflicts in the territory prior to the 15th of

25 May 1992?

Page 19861

1 A. I don't know who wrote this, whether this was done by General

2 Talic and what he meant when he said "armed conflict." In my view, an

3 armed conflict begins when the first bullet is fired. I spoke about that

4 situation. During the night between the 10th and the 11th, the military

5 police was attacked in the village of Blagaj. I don't think I have to go

6 over that again. If I have to, I will. But it was already then that an

7 armed conflict started. What the author of this text meant when he said

8 "armed conflict," I don't know. I don't know what he meant. Maybe he

9 had in mind a large-scale conflict, but this is just my subjective view.

10 Q. Tab 11, please. This is a lengthy report for the public security

11 station at Bosanski Novi. On page 2 in both languages, in your version

12 it's the sentence that is immediately before the paragraph that begins 9th

13 of June 1992. And the sentence in the preceding paragraph says: "During

14 their stay in the reception centre, the citizens had sports and social

15 rooms of the football club available and they were supplied with water and

16 food on a regular basis." You've already told us that was the information

17 that was relayed to you, so far as the people in the stadium were

18 concerned. Is that right?

19 A. Yes. This is what I've already said twice or three times. I said

20 how this was secured and how they were supplied with food and other

21 things.

22 Q. I want to ask you, please, to have a look at a document that we

23 saw for the first time today, which is now P1030. The Prosecution have

24 got, Your Honour, what isn't so much the original but is the original

25 copy, so to speak. Again, Mr. Harmon is anxious that that document

Page 19862

1 doesn't become part of the court record. I have no problem with that but

2 I'd like the witness to have a look at it, please. You told us earlier,

3 Mr. Pasic, that you did not think your signature appeared at number 11.

4 Looking at that version, is that still your position?

5 A. No. I didn't say that this was not my signature. I said that I

6 was not in Korcanica and I'm 100 per cent sure of that. I was never in

7 Korcanica. I don't know whether I was there before the war. I don't

8 think so. I believe that this is my handwriting, but I have doubts about

9 this list. I don't know whether somebody added the lines that are on top

10 of that page, or maybe this is from another meeting. I said that I was at

11 meetings in Sanski Most. Those were regional meetings. Those were just

12 briefings without any legal power. We were just given information as to

13 what was happening in the territory of the municipality and the two

14 neighbouring municipalities. What I'm saying is that I was not in

15 Korcanica. I never claimed that under number 11, that this is not my

16 first name and my last name.

17 Q. Have you had a chance to read the report of the meeting in

18 Korcanica?

19 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask, the last line of the last answer of

20 the witness was "I never claimed that under number 11, that this is not my

21 first name and my last name," but about the signature, is it --

22 MR. JOSSE: May I?

23 Q. Is it your handwriting? Is number 11 your handwriting?

24 A. Yes, it is. This is my handwriting.

25 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues] ... confused about

Page 19863

1 name and signature before and now first name and last name, which -- yes,

2 please proceed.


4 Q. Have you had a chance to look at the minutes of this meeting?

5 A. I believe that I did read these minutes. I don't know when. Some

6 things are illegible but I believe that I did read this, and that's why

7 I'm so clear on everything, because I'm not familiar with this document.

8 I don't know what its legal power was. I repeat, there were some

9 inter-municipality meetings, they were in Sanski Most, not in Korcanica, I

10 wasn't there, but they did not have any legal power, they did not have any

11 power whatsoever, at least those meetings that I attended. I'm really not

12 familiar with this particular kind of meeting. I'm not aware of this.

13 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, Your Honour. If I may just ask the

14 witness to intervene here. There appears to be a line missing in the

15 English translation of this. It is the line that appears above the name

16 and surname in function of and location and the date. There is a

17 handwritten three words. Perhaps --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- what is missing? Oh, just at the --

19 MR. HARMON: The top. Very top.

20 JUDGE ORIE: At the very top.

21 MR. HARMON: Yes, and perhaps that could be read into the record.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you could read that. Mr. Pasic, you see that

23 on the very top of that page, three words of which the first one seems to

24 be not complete. Could you read what it says in your own language so that

25 we --

Page 19864

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try. It seems that it reads,

2 "The second inter --" I don't know whether this is an S, municipality,

3 full stop, agreement. I believe that this is the second

4 inter-municipality briefing, and then it says, Korcanica, 14 June 1992.

5 That's on the right-hand side.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for assisting us. Please proceed, Mr. --

7 MR. JOSSE: I'm very near the end, being aware of the time

8 constraints.

9 Q. Tab 23, please. Page 4 in the B/C/S, two paragraphs at the top of

10 that page, immediately before section 3 begins. So the two top

11 paragraphs, could you quickly read those to yourself. They will be found

12 at page 3 in the English. You were asked about them in part earlier.

13 Summarising, they talk about vindictiveness and revenge resulting from the

14 enemy closing its rank, increasing shortage of basic food, rising prices,

15 poverty, social destitution, shortages of electricity and lack of fuel

16 paralysing the economy as a whole.

17 Were things as bad as that for the Serb population of your

18 municipality at this time in June of 1992, Mr. Pasic?

19 A. I've already spoken about that. The situation was difficult for

20 everybody; for the Serbs equally as for the Muslims. There was no

21 electricity, there was no fuel, there was no oil. And this speaks enough.

22 The situation was alarming. It was extraordinary. But it was the same

23 across the board, in the territories inhabited by the Serbs as well as by

24 the Muslims. We were all struck by this crisis. The times were hard.

25 And the little food that we had we couldn't preserve it because there was

Page 19865

1 no electricity. The food could not be stored. We reached very hard

2 times, but the situation was the same for everybody in the municipality of

3 Novi Grad.

4 MR. JOSSE: Thank you for the Court's indulgence, bearing in mind

5 the time.

6 JUDGE ORIE: We have no further questions for you, Mr. Pasic,

7 which means that this concludes your testimony in this Court.

8 One second, please.

9 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Still some documents need numbers but we are

11 already far over time so we could deal with that tomorrow morning --

12 tomorrow in the afternoon.

13 Mr. Pasic, I'd like to thank you very much for coming to The

14 Hague, not only once but even two times, and I'm at least glad that we

15 could finish today. Thanking you for answering questions of both the

16 parties and the Bench, and I wish you as safe a trip home again as you had

17 last time.

18 Madam Usher, could you please --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could we turn into private session for just a very

22 brief period of time.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19866











11 Pages 19866-19868 redacted. Private session.















Page 19869

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to thank the interpreters and the

4 technicians for their assistance 15 minutes beyond the time we should have

5 stopped.

6 We will adjourn and we will reconvene tomorrow in the afternoon,

7 quarter past 2, Courtroom II? Yes. We stand adjourned.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,

9 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th day of

10 January, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.