1 Wednesday, 15 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon.

7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

11 Before I give you an opportunity to continue, Mr. Tieger,

12 Mr. Josse, we are working hard on next Monday, but it takes an enormous

13 effort. I couldn't tell you whether we'll be successful, but that should

14 become clear somewhere in the next hour. But it takes quite something to

15 reschedule because one of the Chambers could not swap with us because of

16 videolinks already being prepared, and the other one is a very complex

17 case. So therefore I really couldn't tell you whether we are successful,

18 but the mere fact that we are still trying hard should be of some comfort

19 to you.

20 MR. JOSSE: Thank you very much, Your Honour. Perhaps we could

21 return to that subject later, depending on the news.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's do that.

23 Then, Mr. Radojko, I'd like to remind you -- first of all, good

24 afternoon to you as well.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radojko, I'd like to remind you that you're still

2 bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of your

3 testimony. Yes, Mr. Tieger will now continue his cross-examination.

4 Mr. Tieger.

5 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour. Your Honour, before I begin,

6 we have some updated information about some of the exhibit numbers

7 yesterday. I believe that's been provided to the registrar, but I don't

8 know whether it's helpful or not to actually recite them for the Court at

9 this moment.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's not lose ourselves in quoting all kinds

11 of numbers. If we come across in any way any of these exhibits and the

12 numbering of it, we'll deal with it; otherwise, I take it, on the basis of

13 what you found, we'll get new information saying exactly what is what

14 number, perhaps including the numbers assigned to it yesterday.

15 MR. TIEGER: Sure. I would only note that I think two of the

16 items received new numbers. They were previous exhibits, and one of the

17 documents refer -- which was introduced yesterday still needs a number.

18 So I just bring that to the attention of the registrar in case we wanted

19 to use one of those --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar, if you would assign a new number

21 that --

22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. P1102 and 1103, which were

23 already assigned numbers, so they would be available, free. P1104, which

24 was the 2nd Krajina Corps Command order on forming prisoner of war camps,

25 dated 25th June --

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, where do we find that on our list in relation to

2 the tabs?

3 THE REGISTRAR: That would be tab 33, Your Honours. The

4 description does not show on the index.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see. 1104 is now -- is already on the list.

6 THE REGISTRAR: So P1104 would now be P1102.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's tab 33?

8 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 33, Your Honours.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that is now 1102.

10 THE REGISTRAR: And tab 14, which is pending, which we did not

11 give a number yesterday, would be P1103; tab 14.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. That's the intercept.

13 Yes.

14 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 WITNESS: JOVO RADOJKO [Resumed]

16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

18 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Radojko.

19 A. Good afternoon.

20 Q. I believe we -- I will ask you to return to tab 37, where I think

21 we concluded before we adjourned yesterday. That's the report on the

22 events in Bosanski Petrovac from June 1992. And if I can ask you to look

23 at the reference to July 14th regarding the destruction of the mosque on

24 that date, further reference to destruction of another mosque on September

25 15th, and then a reference on the subsequent page in English - I'm not

1 sure how it appears on your copy - to the destruction of the mosque in

2 Rasinovac, which had been demolished earlier. As you indicated yesterday,

3 that information is accurate; correct?

4 A. Yes, I do know that the mosques had been pulled down because the

5 president of the Executive Board had to look for someone to dispose of the

6 remains because some parts of the building were a hazard to passersby.

7 Q. Okay. And it's correct that those mosques were not just damaged

8 but were fully destroyed?

9 A. That's correct.

10 Q. What was the --

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was the construction of those mosques? What were they made

13 of?

14 A. Well, afterwards I used to walk by that place, because I used to

15 live in a place which was close by, and as far as I could tell, they were

16 made of some solid material. As to whether it was stone or brick, I don't

17 know. I could see bits of plaster, but at any rate it was pretty hard.

18 Q. So would it be correct then that they were blown up with

19 explosives?

20 A. It is indeed correct to say that, because on one occasion I was

21 awake at night when a powerful explosion took place, and afterwards I

22 heard stories that on that occasion a mosque was destroyed. I'm certain

23 about one occasion like that because everybody was talking about it in

24 town, and I suppose the others met with the same fate. So there were the

25 remains and I could see that one had indeed been destroyed by explosives.

1 Q. And can you tell us who or what group or groups blew up the

2 mosques?

3 A. It was never established who blew up the mosques. I do know that

4 the police used to say that they didn't even have any indication as to who

5 it might be.

6 Q. Now, if I can ask you to turn to the second page in English, and

7 that will be a reference -- just a couple of paragraphs beyond the

8 indication of the destruction of the mosque in Rasinovac. And that

9 describes a meeting with Muslim representatives and Mr. Novakovic, along

10 with the complete War Presidency. And it indicates that: "[Mr.

11 Novakovic] told us that we would be able to exchange the houses and that

12 it would be made possible for us to leave Petrovac because there was no

13 way that the Muslims and Serbs could live together in Petrovac any

14 longer."

15 First of all, I want -- if you know, I want you to assist us in

16 setting the date of that meeting. The report is intended to be

17 chronological, as it indicates in its preface, and it proceeds roughly

18 chronologically, but there is a -- that date is not indicated and there is

19 a reference to June 20th afterwards. We see that on July 14th the mosque

20 in Srednji Biscani was blown up, and that seems to be an occasion in the

21 report to indicate the destruction of the mosques earlier and later. And

22 then the next paragraphs indicate: "We got a message from Safet Hidic,"

23 and it proceeds to discuss that and says: "We got a message from Safet

24 Hidic and Ejub Topic from the meeting with the Serbian authorities in

25 Korenica in late June ..."

1 And then it says: "We were received by the mayor, Mr. Novakovic,

2 along with the complete War Presidency."

3 And the next reference is then to an exchange of houses with the

4 Serbs from Bihac started -- I'm sorry, excuse me, the next reference is:

5 "The first contact with UNPROFOR was made in Lapac on July 16th, 1992 ..."

6 And finally, this may be helpful after the reference to

7 Mr. Novakovic's meeting with the Muslim delegation: "They set up a

8 commission for the contact with the Muslims, headed by Obrad Vrzina."

9 Does that assist you in setting a more precise date for that

10 meeting, sir?

11 A. I find it difficult to remember the date, but I can reconstruct

12 the part of all this. This meeting with the Serb authorities at Korenica,

13 well, they said that they got a message from Safet Hidic and Ejub Topic.

14 This Topic person is somebody I don't know from Petrovac, so I suppose it

15 must be one of the Muslim leaders from Bihac, because at that stage Safet

16 Hidic had already gone to Bihac, and I suppose that it must have been

17 there that they sent a message, either through UNPROFOR or somebody else,

18 I do not know, because Muslims from that delegation that I was a part of

19 as well wanted to have separate talks with the UNPROFOR representatives,

20 so they did. And I suppose this information was obtained in the course of

21 that conversation, I don't know, because I was left in an adjoining room

22 on my own. But here the reference is to Husein Odobasic's delegation --

23 Q. Mr. Radojko, I apologise for that, and perhaps you're thinking out

24 loud, trying to reconstruct the dates by reciting the events, but if you

25 can assist us with the date, that would be appreciated; if not, I'm not

1 seeking at this moment the precise substance of each and every one of

2 those meetings. Did that meeting take place right around the time of the

3 establishment of the commission which was headed by Mr. Vrzina?

4 A. As to this meeting and this make-up of the Muslim delegation and

5 the Serb delegation, well, I didn't know about it. Presumably this is

6 when the dignitaries from both the Muslim and the Serb side attended some

7 kind of meeting, because this is outside the context at Lapac. They are

8 saying that the meeting was at Korenica, which is quite some way away.

9 And secondly, the second meeting, the fact that they were met by

10 the entire War Presidency, well, I certainly did not attend a meeting of

11 this sort because I was at a meeting prior to the very departure. It was

12 in September, when I was in charge of the minutes -- or rather, I was

13 taking notes. And presumably, presumably, looking at the time, these

14 meetings overlap with the time when Mr. Vrzina was elected to that

15 commission -- yes, it's come to me now. At the time when Obrad Vrzina was

16 appointed the president of the commission, I as a legal expert was also

17 appointed to that commission. I can remember that now. I saw that

18 document at the previous trial. I was in the battle-field and it would

19 have been in July 1992, because I had been mobilised at that time, and

20 when I came back somebody told me by the way that I had been appointed for

21 that commission, but that commission did no work at all. Perhaps Vrzina

22 himself attended some meetings himself, I don't know about that.

23 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I would just like to put a

24 question to you. In order to come back to this destruction of the

25 mosques, were those isolated incidents or did it fall within the framework

1 of a general trend towards destruction?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those mosques were pulled down in a

3 period of time which was rather brief. I do not remember whether it went

4 on for a week or a little bit longer or a little bit less, but they had

5 been destroyed. All that happened was in the morning we heard, okay, the

6 mosque had been destroyed. As to the destruction of mosques, later on in

7 1992, on one occasion in the month of May, or maybe earlier, I was on my

8 way to Banja Luka on some business and I realised that Ferhadija mosque

9 had been destroyed. And I think I must have been there on the day after

10 the event. And it is possible that there were such destructions at the

11 same time in several places, but this is, roughly speaking, the period of

12 time in which that happened.

13 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] My question was very specific: I

14 wanted to know whether those mosques or one of those mosques had been

15 destroyed in the course of some bombing campaigns that could have

16 destroyed houses as well or whether they were individualised as targets

17 and were destroyed as targets, as specific targets.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise. I had not quite

19 understood your question. On those occasions, the mosques were the only

20 targets. There was no bombing or anything.

21 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

23 MR. TIEGER:

24 Q. Now, the report on the events mentions also, on the second page,

25 that UNPROFOR refused to agree to escort them out for already known

1 reasons. I think you made reference in your testimony earlier, during the

2 examination-in-chief, to the fact that there was no international

3 participation in the convoys that you described at length during your

4 testimony. If I can, I'd like to show you now the next exhibit, and

5 that's a news article dated August 13th, 1992, a Reuters article that

6 needs to be distributed.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Does it need a number, Mr. Tieger?

8 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour, it does.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the number would be?

10 THE REGISTRAR: P1104, Your Honours.

11 MR. TIEGER:

12 Q. Now, Mr. Radojko, I want to direct your attention to a few

13 references in that article and then ask you about them. As you can see,

14 in the first sentence the article states that: "The United Nations has

15 challenged Serb plans to evict 28.000 Muslims from besieged towns in

16 northern Bosnia, and warns Serb forces 'the whole world will know' if

17 refugees are harmed."

18 The third paragraph quotes a spokeswoman for the -- for UNHCR

19 saying: "We have told local authorities that if any harm comes to these

20 people, the whole world will know."

21 Further down the page you'll see the number 20.000. It says:

22 "More than 20.000 people are stranded crossing the Bosnian-Croatian border

23 and thousands more to the south." And the next sentence references the

24 "Serbs' most ambitious 'ethnic cleansing' to date."

25 And the final reference I want to bring your attention to at this

1 moment appears at the first sentence of the English, and that's about

2 three short paragraphs after the reference to Dr. Karadzic in this

3 article. And it says: "Most of the families are Muslim, huddled at the

4 border town of Bosanski Novi, he said. Others are believed to be grouping

5 further south in Bosanski Petrovac."

6 The potential departure of Muslims from Petrovac that were the

7 subject of the reference in the Bosanski Petrovac report during July and

8 August were not an isolated event in Petrovac but were part of a much

9 wider movement of Muslims in the Bosnian Krajina. Correct?

10 A. I'm familiar with the --

11 MR. JOSSE: I'm going to interrupt because I've had a chance to

12 glance at this document. The witness really needs to read it all, to be

13 given a moment to read it all. I have submissions to make about the

14 document in due course, but I'll wait until the cross-examination on it is

15 finished. But in my submission, selective use of this document in this

16 way is not fair.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

18 MR. TIEGER: Well, I'm not sure in what respect it's unfair with

19 respect to this particular question, Your Honour. I'm more than happy in

20 any event to have the witness to take as much time to review it as he

21 wishes and requires.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radojko, could you please read through the

23 document and tell us when you're finished.

24 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may, and I don't want to make too

25 much of a fuss about this, but if this is some sort of insinuation by

1 counsel that this is an unfair use of this document, I'd like to hear

2 about it more directly and exactly what it is --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The problem is, Mr. Tieger, that in order to

4 give any decision on that, we would have to read it as well. I mean, only

5 once we have read it or once we hear from Mr. Josse and put it all in

6 context. It would take just as much time as to give the witness an

7 opportunity. The fact that the Chamber gives an opportunity to the

8 witness to read the document is not in any way to be understood as either

9 accepting or not accepting the observations made by Mr. Josse. It's just

10 a practical solution for the present situation.

11 MR. JOSSE: I'm content with that at this stage. Thank you.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I've read through the

13 document.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

16 MR. TIEGER:

17 Q. And you recall the question, Mr. Radojko, and can you answer it?

18 A. I can. I'm not familiar with these other events, apart the

19 reference to Petrovac at the time. Here it says it is presumed that more

20 refugees are being gathered south of Petrovac. It's the 13th of August,

21 1992. Back then, there was a huge influx of Serb refugees into Petrovac,

22 and up until September, October, about 6.000 of them arrived at Petrovac.

23 And Muslims simply lived in their own houses. They were not gathered

24 anywhere.

25 Q. So I'm going to ask you two questions then and I'll break them

1 down. First of all, are you saying that you had no idea that outside of

2 Petrovac Muslims were leaving, in whatever way, in other municipalities?

3 A. No, that's not what I meant, and I didn't actually put it like

4 that. I started saying that I was familiar with some instances of them

5 leaving because when we left with the first convoy and when we were

6 threatened and they threatened us and said that we would be killed, and on

7 that occasion we were told that others had already gone through from the

8 municipalities of Sanski Most and Kljuc. And then on the day on which we

9 were meant to leave, we asked from the Kljuc municipality to send us some

10 buses. And they promised to do so, but on that day the buses did not get

11 there. And when we encountered problems, security-related problems, in

12 crossing Vlasic, and on that occasion we were told that the Kljuc people

13 had been there in their own convoy. And that's why, apparently, there

14 were not enough soldiers to escort us and that's why we had difficulties.

15 So on at least two occasions I knew for a fact that there had been

16 people moving out from other municipalities.

17 Q. The second question is: Did you understand from the

18 representatives of the international community that their unwillingness to

19 participate in the departure of Muslims from Petrovac was due to their

20 understanding or allegations that Muslims were being forced out of

21 municipalities around the Krajina?

22 A. Their claim is a general one here. Perhaps it applies to some

23 places, but I can claim that it is not correct in relation to Petrovac.

24 Would you list property and real estate, seal that property, create

25 security and all that, and take care of these people if we had been after

1 ethnic cleansing? I mean, there were also agreements amongst people in

2 order to have Serbs keep an eye on their property, et cetera. And I think

3 all these indications point to the contrary. I can't talk about any other

4 situation any other place, because all I know about those is rumours, so

5 of course anything is possible. But in the case of Petrovac I know that

6 everybody worked on the assumption that the Muslims would be back.

7 Q. My question was, Mr. Radojko, whether you understood at that time,

8 in the summer of 1992, that the international community was refusing to

9 participate in these convoys, this movement of Muslims, because they

10 believed it to be ethnic cleansing?

11 A. I've already mentioned that they said explicitly that they

12 believed that it might be ethnic cleansing, and that's why they would not

13 provide any assistance in those people being transferred to Split. That

14 was the delegation that included Druzic, Odobasic, myself, I don't know

15 whether Gacesa was there at the time, I can't remember. On that occasion,

16 that's what we were told. And we didn't go only once. But on the

17 occasion of the second or the third meeting, we were told that they

18 wouldn't play any part in it.

19 Q. Now, I noted that you distinguished to some extent Petrovac from

20 other municipalities. And if I recall correctly, you made such a

21 distinction during the course of your testimony in the Brdjanin case as

22 well.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And at 20359 you were asked: "Now, finally, and this is how

25 matters began yesterday, when you were cross-examined by Mr. Cunningham.

1 He put to you something you had said in an interview, at the end, I

2 believe it was, that you believed that the authorities in Bosanski

3 Petrovac - this is page 37 of yesterday's LiveNote - did whatever was

4 possible. 'The essential goal --'" the Prosecutor is quoting your

5 testimony. "'The essential goal, the essential intention, was for people

6 to be removed from danger, and unfortunately, if you look at it from the

7 outside, we seem exactly the same, in a way, as the municipalities that

8 organised the persecution of their population and organised their

9 removal.'

10 "The first question is: Which municipalities are you thinking

11 of?"

12 And you responded: "It's difficult to name individual

13 municipalities, but in the press, I read on various occasions, especially

14 after the war, and up to an extent in the wartime press, written, printed

15 written by refugees. For instance, a paper published by Muslims, refugees

16 from Sanski Most. And they explicitly said there that they had been

17 rounded up and forced out, forced to become refugees. I also learnt about

18 the municipality of Banja Luka, that there were such round-ups. I could

19 see on Belgrade television, and I could hear people make statements how

20 they had been rounded up and how they had even to pay to be allowed to

21 leave and considerable amounts at that. So these are municipalities that

22 I meant, for instance, and you can find a lot of it in the press."

23 Now, just to round this out, I'll attempt to paraphrase as

24 accurately as possible. If a more accurate reading is required, I'll be

25 pleased to do so. You were then asked about your contact with the

1 municipality of Prijedor. You said these contacts happened twice, and you

2 described them in full. "The president may have communicated more often,

3 but not at the time when Stakic became the president of the Serb

4 Democratic Party for the subregion --"

5 MR. JOSSE: Sorry, that was in response to a question as to

6 whether he had any other contact with that municipality, and the answer

7 was: "No." And then he went on to say: "These contacts that existed

8 happened twice ..."

9 MR. TIEGER:

10 Q. And then after the passage I quoted, you were asked: "All right.

11 Would you describe Prijedor as one of the municipalities that organised

12 the persecution of the population and their removal?"

13 And you said: "Well, on the basis of the information that I

14 found, as I have described, yes, I believe that Prijedor was one of those

15 municipalities, and after all, it is common knowledge as to what went on

16 in Prijedor. Today, on our television, we often see stories about people

17 expelled, I mean taken from their homes, and so on."

18 And then you went on to say but at that time you "didn't know

19 about it because it was all -- nobody spoke about this. There was silence

20 about it. None of the municipal mayors, at least the meeting I was

21 present, you couldn't hear anything about that, even though one heard that

22 Muslims were leaving our municipalities. But simply, whether it was a

23 taboo subject or not, perhaps in those circles, who were rather broad when

24 I was, I mean, present there, so they didn't discuss it, but it was never

25 mentioned. People knew that -- that there were people leaving, but nobody

1 knew exactly how."

2 Now, one of the contacts you had with Mr. Stakic referred to --

3 well, first of all, let me confirm that that's -- that that information is

4 accurate as you related in the course of the Brdjanin testimony. I mean,

5 is that -- that's what you said at that time. Is that right?

6 A. Yes, I have definitely stated that. However, you've mentioned a

7 whole lot of information that I cannot now confirm individually because

8 there was a great deal of it. But generally speaking, yes, that's what I

9 stated. I mentioned every single contact that I had with whomsoever, and

10 I have documents corroborating that. I can tell you only that at least at

11 a later stage I found out what had been going on earlier.

12 Q. And I wanted to take you to those specific contacts. The first

13 contact --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Judge Hanoteau would like to put a question.

15 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] As to your municipality, sir, and

16 I'm referring to your municipality only, was the departure of those

17 Muslims voluntary or not? In trying to determine that, I would like to

18 put the following question to you: Do you recognise that the living

19 conditions for those Muslims back then in your town and around your town

20 were such as to basically leave them no choice but to leave? Do you

21 believe that their living conditions, their circumstances at the time, led

22 them to volunteer to leave? Let me clarify this. If they were bombed,

23 threatened, victimised non-stop, they of course would have volunteered to

24 leave. Do you allow that, I don't know who, but somebody, ensured that

25 their circumstances were such as to lead them to wish to leave your

1 municipality and go to live somewhere else?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already answered the question,

3 and I will repeat: The largest group that departed, regardless of the

4 fact that their representative volunteered to leave, in my opinion, the

5 group did not leave out of their own will because the situation that you

6 described here indicates that they did not wish to leave but rather wished

7 to seek safety. People who left earlier on left of their own will,

8 because at the time the pressure was not that prominent and the local

9 authorities kept the situation under control. However, when the new

10 bodies of authorities were starting to be set up and the JNA started being

11 dissolved, these gangs circulated around, the conditions changed. And

12 under those circumstances, I believe they were compelled to leave,

13 especially during the two or three days when there was general shooting

14 and violence. That was shortly before their departure, I believe two or

15 three days before their departure.

16 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] But do you mean to say that this

17 pressure which had been brought to bear by these external elements was

18 something that simply escaped any control? Are you going as far as to say

19 that the situation was so chaotic as to make any sort of control of the

20 situation impossible and that whatever happened could not be kept under

21 control or could not be checked in any way? Is that what you're trying to

22 say? That is to say are you saying that neither the civilian nor the

23 military authorities were in a position to bring the situation under

24 control?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I'm trying to

1 say. There was general intolerance and resentment. Look at Iraq at

2 present day. Who can put the matters under control? There was general

3 hatred. The society and the communities were separated. The different

4 communities wished to defend their own interests that were conflicting.

5 Over 100 persons were required to keep guard in a small -- stand guard in

6 a small town, and still they could not protect everyone.

7 It bears noting that part of the town was populated by Serbs and

8 the other by Muslims, which meant that it wasn't the whole of the town

9 that they had to protect. The attackers were never quite identified,

10 although I believe that they were Serbs, and those who were standing guard

11 had to open fire at them. So you could hear gun-shots and grenades being

12 thrown everywhere around. And these were people who had only gone through

13 their military service some 10 or 20 years earlier and could barely hold a

14 piece of weapon. That was what the situation was like. And you can see

15 that what I'm saying is the truth because still the situation is such that

16 that indicates that we cannot be together.

17 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 MR. TIEGER:

19 Q. Mr. Radojko, I indicated that I was going to direct your attention

20 to the two occasions you asserted that you had contact with Dr. Stakic

21 from Prijedor during summer of 1992. The first occasion was reflected in

22 your diary, and you've testified about that. That was a meeting, a May

23 12th meeting, with representatives of the army and other municipalities.

24 And at that time, among other things, you sought to obtain fuel from

25 Prijedor, which had a military warehouse. And you made arrangements to

1 get in touch with Dr. Stakic to obtain that fuel, and you did so. Is that

2 right?

3 A. Yes, yes. That's right.

4 Q. And the other occasion also reflected in your diary was a meeting

5 of the 7th of June, a meeting in Sanski Most, and specifically in Palanka,

6 Sanski Most, of the -- entitled: The subregional meeting of seven

7 municipalities, including Petrovac. Is that right?

8 A. That's right. We did not meet the first time. We had a telephone

9 contact. I didn't know him. I received an order, and I carried it out.

10 Q. Okay. And it was in connection with the -- of obtaining oil from

11 the military warehouse in Prijedor. That part's accurate?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. And the second occasion was the 7 June 1992 subregional meeting of

14 seven municipalities?

15 A. I was sent to attend the meeting on behalf of the president. I

16 merely collected the information at the meeting and went back. I did not

17 have a special role there. I recall this event during my earlier

18 testimony because it wasn't that relevant to me. I had to relay a message

19 from some of the commanders, and that was the end of the story. They took

20 notes of the meeting, and I believe that possibly they sent the minutes to

21 Petrovac later on.

22 Q. Turn to tab 26. You'll see the conclusions adopted at the

23 subregional meeting on the 7th of June.

24 MR. TIEGER: That's at -- and that's P529, tab 343, Your Honour;

25 also P192.

1 Q. Conclusion number 6 from that meeting is that: "All seven

2 municipalities in our subregion agree that Muslims and Croats should move

3 out of our municipalities until a level is reached where Serbian authority

4 can be maintained and implemented on its own territory in each of these

5 municipalities. In this respect, we request that the Crisis Staff of the

6 Autonomous Region of Krajina provide a corridor for the re-settlement of

7 Muslims and Croats to Central Bosnia and Alija's independent state of BH

8 because they voted for it. If the leadership of the Autonomous Region of

9 Krajina and Banja Luka fails to solve this issue, our seven municipalities

10 will take all Muslims and Croats under military escort from our

11 municipalities to the centre of Banja Luka."

12 So, Mr. Radojko, that information reflected further information

13 available to you about what was happening and why it was happening to the

14 Muslims and Croats in the adjacent municipalities in the ARK, didn't it?

15 A. No. There was no such discussion at this particular meeting. We

16 sat at a desk at this meeting, had a drink, and we agreed that the

17 organiser - that was either the municipality of Krupa or that of Prijedor

18 - that they would draw-up conclusions and disseminate them. And that was

19 the end of the story because the representatives of these municipalities

20 were not even officially there -- or rather, the relevant municipalities

21 were not represented. I must point out that a lot of what is written here

22 is grammatically incorrect, and whoever drafted this must have been

23 writing something that is simply a wish list, because these matters were

24 not discussed at this meeting, because I assure you that I would have

25 taken note of them in my diary and I would have relayed the information to

1 the president. If you talk to the other participants in this meeting, you

2 would be told that none of the matters listed here were in fact discussed.

3 This is nonsensical. These are matters that could not simply be

4 implemented, not even in this way, as written here.

5 Q. Well, as you subsequently found out, Mr. Radojko, they were

6 implemented in, essentially, that way, weren't they?

7 A. Unfortunately, yes. The authors of such texts must have

8 implemented them, too. But I assure you that such matters could not have

9 been discussed at this meeting. There were senior officers, military

10 officers, who would not wish to participate in such meetings in the first

11 place.

12 Q. Now, I thought from reading your previous testimony that the

13 reason you didn't take more notes about this meeting is because

14 Mr. Latinovic was there, so there wasn't much need for you to do so.

15 A. It is possible that Mr. Latinovic was there. But there was no

16 need for that because those who organised the meeting were not there. It

17 was only when my municipality organised the meeting that I took notes, and

18 you can see that. It transpires from my archives. Otherwise, only if

19 something specific needed to be done would I take detailed notes of that.

20 At the time, I didn't know what the contents of some of these

21 messages of the military officers were, but I relayed them all the same.

22 I recall that one piece of information where I was supposed to relay a

23 message saying that somebody need not have been criminally prosecuted for

24 something. I don't really remember, I didn't know what it was all about.

25 Besides, a lot of time was -- this was a long time ago.

1 Q. As a matter of fact, Mr. Latinovic briefed the Crisis Staff about

2 the conclusions adopted from that meeting on -- just a couple of days

3 later - and if you can turn to the next tab - in fact, just the next day.

4 And that's tab 27, P90, tab 24, which reflect the minutes of the 28th

5 session of the Crisis Staff. And if you'll turn to item number 2,

6 contained on page 2 of the English, it indicates that: "Bogdan Latinovic

7 informed the participants about the conclusions adopted at the meeting

8 that was held at Luska Palanka with the representatives of the seven

9 municipalities."

10 A. Yes, that's what it says, but I assure you that the minutes were

11 not drafted or disseminated at the time because under those circumstances

12 it was impossible for it to take place so soon. To tell you the truth, I

13 don't know anything specific about it. But judging from what -- from the

14 way things were done back then, I can tell you that this wasn't the case.

15 I know that the mood at the meeting was pleasant. They had a drink, I

16 don't know whether they had something to eat as well. I only remember

17 that there was nothing specific for me to do. I was simply sitting there

18 on one side of the desk, and when the meeting finished, I went back. That

19 was the end of it for me. It is quite possible that some of the matters

20 were indeed discussed, but I assure you that none of these were subject of

21 any conclusions. Nothing was concluded on.

22 Q. You mentioned during the course of your earlier testimony that

23 Mr. Novakovic had a conversation with Dr. Karadzic after the convoy, and

24 that Dr. Karadzic was angry. You didn't mention that during the course of

25 your Brdjanin testimony, as I recall, did you?

1 A. I don't remember whether I mentioned it or not. At any rate,

2 whatever I said was truthful. Nobody asked me about any such thing, and

3 nobody put such a question to me here either. I'm trying to simply answer

4 from my memory.

5 Q. It wouldn't surprise you, I take it, if -- since you think that

6 Dr. Karadzic knew about it from Mr. Novakovic, that the subject of the

7 convoy was well-known and that the other members of the Bosnian Serb

8 leadership knew about that convoy.

9 A. I don't know about that. I don't know how it was that they made

10 contact on that day, because when we arrived in Knezevo it was night-time

11 already and the army took over and told us to wait there.

12 Q. Wait --

13 A. I returned the following day --

14 Q. Okay. Mr. Radojko, we're -- I want to spare us the time. If you

15 don't know whether or not other people know about that, I want to direct

16 your attention --

17 MR. JOSSE: I'm rising because that wasn't the question that was

18 asked. The question that was asked I, in fact, was waiting for the answer

19 because I was going to object to it. It was pure assumption. The

20 question was put on the basis, "It wouldn't surprise you, would it,"

21 rather than the question that has now just been asked quite differently.

22 In my submission, the first question is assumption, the second question is

23 perfectly fair. Perhaps my learned friend could ask a proper question.

24 MR. TIEGER:

25 Q. Let's move on to another question. The fact of the matter is,

1 Mr. Radojko, that what upset the Bosnian Serb leaders about this convoy is

2 the fact that they were in the course of negotiations with the

3 international community and that more ethnic cleansing put them in a bad

4 negotiating posture. Isn't that right, and didn't you know that at the

5 time?

6 A. I didn't know anything about this at the time. Today, I can't say

7 what their thoughts were. Your assumption may be right --

8 Q. Well, let me --

9 A. -- in view of the events at the time.

10 Q. Let me direct your attention to tab 48, which contain remarks by

11 General Mladic at the 20th Session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly. And let

12 me ask you to look through that for a reference to General Rob and the

13 inhabitants of Petrovac.

14 Let me see if I can be of assistance to you in just a moment. If

15 you'll -- contained on page 21 of the English, and if you'll look through

16 your portion, you'll see a reference to Martic and General Dukic, and then

17 a further reference to Martic and then the quote I want to bring your

18 attention to. And I'll read you the full quote; it may assist you as

19 well.

20 "General Rob was particularly interested in the evacuation of

21 inhabitants of Petrovac and I want to tell you about that. In the past

22 few days the civilian authorities and the Red Cross organised buses, eight

23 on one day and five on the next day. We should be careful about these

24 things, they shouldn't happen prior to meetings and conferences because

25 they undermine the negotiating positions of our leadership. I told them

1 that the Muslims and Croats did this before every conference, and I told

2 him frankly that we give their people buses and take them to Split while

3 they throw our people into pits and never turn them over to anyone."

4 Now, did Mr. Milanovic or Mr. Novakovic indicate to you at any

5 point that that was the source of the irritation by the Bosnian Serb

6 leadership over the timing of the convoy?

7 A. They never told me anything about it. This is the first time I

8 hear of it actually discussed this way.

9 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Radojko, in any event, that by the 28th of

10 October, by late October, there was hardly a Muslim left in Petrovac? And

11 I'm just quoting you from your testimony in Brdjanin at 20210.

12 A. There's no need for that. It's true; that's correct. There's no

13 need for that. I said so yesterday as well, except for those who remained

14 in one village just outside the town.

15 Q. If I could turn your attention next to tab --

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 MR. TIEGER:

18 Q. I'd like to turn your attention to tab 53.

19 MR. TIEGER: And I think this needs a number, Your Honour, if I'm

20 not mistaken.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 53, Your Honours, will be P1105.

23 MR. TIEGER:

24 Q. These are conclusions of the ARK Crisis Staff from the 28th May,

25 1992. They were faxed, as indicated, to Bosanski Novi and Sanski Most.

1 And if you could look quickly at conclusion number 7, it states: "If they

2 want to move from the territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, the

3 members of the Muslim and Croatian nationality, or the SDA and HDZ

4 parties, together with representatives of the Autonomous Region of

5 Krajina, must provide the endangered Serbian people, subjects of an

6 unfathomable genocide, collective evacuation to their settlements, that

7 is, a reciprocal exchange must be provided."

8 And then if I could ask you to also look quickly at a related

9 decision that's from the next day, May 29th.

10 MR. TIEGER: That needs to be distributed, Your Honour, although

11 it is a previous exhibit, P64A, binder 18, footnote 372 [Realtime

12 transcript read in error "72"].

13 Q. In conclusion 1 of this -- of the meeting held on 29 May 1992, it

14 focuses on the same issue in conclusion 1, indicating that: "It has been

15 decided that all Muslims and Croats, who so wish, should be able to move

16 out of the area of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, but on condition that

17 Serbs living outside of the Serbian autonomous districts and regions are

18 allowed to move into the territories of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

19 Herzegovina and the Autonomous Region of Krajina. In this manner, an

20 exchange of population or, more precisely, a re-settlement of people from

21 one part of the former SR BiH to another would be carried out in an

22 organised manner."

23 It goes on in the next paragraph to talk about the

24 family-for-family principle, the concern of the ARK Crisis Staff with the

25 fact that "several thousand Muslims from Prijedor, Sanski Most, and

1 Bosanski Novi wish to move to Central Bosnia, of their own free will,

2 whereas a great number of Serbs from Central Bosnia want to move to

3 Krajina, but are not permitted by the local authorities, who are keeping

4 them as some sort of hostage."

5 And, Mr. Radojko, it's correct, isn't it, that that -- that those

6 decisions were conveyed to the Petrovac municipality and discussed at a

7 meeting held shortly afterward. And if you don't recall specifically, I

8 can direct your attention to that specific Crisis Staff meeting.

9 A. I'd like you to refer me to the meeting you have in mind. The

10 decisions were delivered one way or the other; whether by facsimile or by

11 someone who was actually physically going to Banja Luka.

12 Q. If you'd turn to tab 54, then.

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I don't know if this is going to create

14 confusion, but with respect to the previous exhibit, the transcript

15 indicates P64A binder 18, footnote 72, it's footnote 372.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. It had not confused me yet, Mr. Tieger.

17 MR. TIEGER: And, Your Honours, this is P90, tab 20.

18 Q. Tab 54, Mr. Radojko, contains the minutes of the 24th Session of

19 the Crisis Staff of the Petrovac municipality, held on the 2nd of June.

20 And agenda item number 1 indicates as follows: "Bogdan Latinovic read the

21 conclusions of the AR Krajina Crisis Staff in Banja Luka, reached at the

22 session held on 29 May 1992.

23 "After the discussion, the Crisis Staff of Petrovac Municipality

24 gave a proposition for the aforementioned conclusions to be adopted in

25 full, as follows ..."

1 And as near as I can tell, it recites the language of the decision

2 of 29 May. I won't read it again. There may be small distinctions, but I

3 think that's essentially the thrust of that agenda item. And that would

4 represent a correct chronology of events regarding that particular ARK

5 conclusion, its dissemination, and adoption. Correct?

6 MR. JOSSE: Well, I think the witness needs to read the whole of

7 number 1. It's not -- goes on, is not exactly the same.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Would you like to read the whole of the first

9 portion, Mr. Radojko? Then you have an opportunity to read it.

10 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, there's no need for

12 that. Whilst they were talking, I kind of scanned the text. It is not

13 about the adoption of any conclusions, it is about receiving information.

14 The lady who was in charge of the minutes made a mistake, that was all.

15 According -- because according to a logical approach, they couldn't adopt

16 these conclusions because they had already been adopted, so they simply

17 took note of the conclusions in question. They were a level below, so

18 they couldn't either argue with this or confirm it in any way.

19 JUDGE ORIE: But could they have said, "We do not wish to do

20 this"? I mean, it sounds as if whatever comes from above is accepted

21 as ...

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recall what they actually

23 discussed on that occasion, although, as I can see, I have attended. I

24 seem to have attended this meeting. They simply, presumably, went through

25 this in a formal fashion, listened to this, and then left, because I can

1 see that -- well, in fact, it was a rather lengthy meeting, an hour and a

2 half. I can't remember, but it can't be a matter of them adopting

3 anything of the sort. They could only take note of it, take note of the

4 contents.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radojko, the last lines of paragraph 1 read:

6 "The Crisis Staff has invited the leaderships of the SDA and the HDZ to

7 actively take part in enabling the evacuation of the population." So that

8 doesn't sound that much of just taking note of what has been decided

9 elsewhere, but looks, rather, as an active attempt to implement what --

10 what has been decided.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree that it looks that way.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

13 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but could you please be -- Mr. Radojko, I'm

15 asking you this question and I'm -- when we look at this document, you

16 have explained to us in length that you were only meeting the desire of

17 all the Muslims to leave; that was what you intended to do. If seven

18 municipalities produce a document in which we -- they say: Let's get the

19 number of non-Serbs down to a level which suits us, and if this document

20 says that of course they can leave if we get, in return, Serbs for it, so

21 this document does not give a similar impression as you gave us in your

22 answers. It is a document which tells us: They want to leave, fine, but

23 only if we get Serbs in return for that. That's a totally different

24 story, just as is the seven municipalities documents a totally different

25 story from what you've told us. And I'm seeking a -- well, you say it --

1 we passively took note of it. And of course Mr. Tieger has -- as you

2 said, that these kind of things later actually did happen to some extent.

3 Could you explain this difference in what you tell us and what we read in

4 these documents?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I must stress that quite a bit of

6 what I've said was actually my own interpretation in an attempt to

7 reconstruct a number of events on the basis of what I see in front of me.

8 It is rather difficult for me to pre-empt other people's intentions. I'm

9 simply telling you what I remember. For example, at those meetings here,

10 the conclusions were not developed and drafted on that occasion, and the

11 document that we have here refers to a decision of the AR Krajina. And

12 according to the nature of events, they couldn't adopt it but they could

13 take note of it and move on to implement it actively. Perhaps that's what

14 it is about, that they agreed that they will implement the decision. But

15 as to exchanges of population, I don't know what exactly they had in mind

16 and who participated in those negotiations. I was not even in a position

17 to attend meetings of that nature.

18 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, Mr. Radojko, you were perfectly

19 able to explain all the reasons behind accommodating the wishes of the

20 non-Serbs, which of course you agreed that circumstances were very

21 difficult for them, but it was all about "That's what they wished and we

22 just helped them to achieve that where we could not perhaps achieve what

23 would have been best for all of us, that is that there would be no

24 violence by gangs, et cetera," but very much a helpful and positive

25 approach. Whatever piece of paper we read, it's totally different. What

1 makes you believe -- and that's what I'm seeking: What makes you perceive

2 this whole situation as an ultimate attempt to assist non-Serbs whereas

3 every piece of paper -- well, of course not every, this is an

4 exaggeration, but many of these documents give a totally different

5 picture, that is: We want to have them below a certain number, we will

6 let them go if at least we get in return Serbs for them, and perhaps other

7 examples to follow. How could it be that you perceived the matter, in

8 your position, so differently from the impression that's given in these

9 documents?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do understand what the problem is.

11 I regret that there seems to be a misunderstanding here. When I talk

12 about events, I only refer to the municipality in which I lived and on

13 behalf of whose administration I did the job I did. I would like to

14 stress that the understanding is due to the fact that we were an isolated

15 case down there. That municipality was a unique one. In that

16 municipality, first of all, Muslims were in a minority, and I said that my

17 view was that they posed no serious threat to Serbs, even with all the

18 weapons that they had managed to obtain.

19 Secondly, they found themselves on a very small territory, almost

20 like a ghetto. I myself had the impression that the overwhelming majority

21 of that population were not militants, felt no animosity, and the most

22 extreme ones had either already been spotted or had already fled the area.

23 And I'm sorry that there seems to be an impression that I said about all

24 of them, that they wished to leave. I was talking about the largest

25 group, and there it was my clear impression that they left because of this

1 pressure of -- because of those events, because I could see people begging

2 to be allowed to leave. In a previous period of time, they might have

3 wanted to.

4 Something else --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but you say: "I could see people begging to be

6 allowed to leave," and at the same time I see a document in which it said:

7 One family for one family, which does not give the impression that if they

8 begged to leave, that you said: Okay, please go. You say it's one family

9 for one family. And this same document says the Crisis Staff has decided

10 to form a board for the implementation of these conclusions, that is, on

11 the evacuation of Muslims from the territory of Petrovac municipality. It

12 doesn't say let's try to see whether we can protect them in the best way

13 we can and if they really want to leave, let's not apply a

14 one-family-for-one-family approach, let's -- I'm puzzled by the

15 differences between the paperwork and the testimony you are giving.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely. There is, and I'm aware

17 of it throughout. I'm referring to you what actually happened, not what

18 was put down in writing. This principle, one family for one family, as

19 far as I can remember was never even mentioned for real. It might have

20 been in this text that came from Banja Luka and that was the end of it.

21 Because it was not possible, under the circumstances, Your Honour. Serbs,

22 refugees from Bihac, had already crossed over to the Serb side, most of

23 them; about 4 to 5.000 of them had already moved to the area of Petrovac

24 municipality. So if we had applied this principle, it would have been

25 totally impossible to implement, and a whole range of these points here

1 simply make no sense. I'm telling you what actually happened and not what

2 they put down in writing. Whoever speaks Serbian can see that there is

3 not even any syntax to this document.

4 JUDGE ORIE: But then, Mr. Radojko, I would expect the minutes or

5 reports or meetings to say: Well, this is the -- these were the

6 conclusions they reached, but it's all totally irrelevant for us because

7 there's no reason for us to do anything like that. But the document says

8 something totally different. It says: We're creating a board which will

9 implement or -- which does not match with your explanation.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My interpretation is -- does not run

11 counter to the fact that the commission was set up. It was indeed set up,

12 as you can see. Or, rather, whether it was actually operational, I do not

13 recall.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at least if you set up such a board, it's

15 usually done with the intention to make it operational, even if it fails

16 to become operational at that time. If on from the beginning you don't

17 want such a board to become operational, there's no need to create it,

18 would there?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right, but I can't

20 remember it being operational. Most of these people are still alive and

21 they can tell you themselves. I suppose they never did anything at all.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

23 This was my question.

24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Who were the members of this

25 board?

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it follows from this, they

2 were Hidic Safet, who was a member of the Assembly on behalf of the SDA

3 Party; then Refik Bahtirjarevic, who was a businessman; then Dragan

4 Ivanic, who was the president of the Serb Democratic Party; and Slavko

5 Banjac was an employee in a state-owned company.

6 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Microphone not activated]

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Were they all Serbs?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Two were Muslims and two Serbs.

10 Hidic and Bahtirjarevic were Muslims, and Ivanic and Banjac were Serbs.

11 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I'm looking at the clock. Would this be

13 a suitable time to have a break?

14 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll first ask Madam Usher to escort the

16 witness out of the courtroom.

17 [The witness stands down]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I am aware that the Chamber took some of

19 the time. Yes. Your expression of your face is telling us that you would

20 certainly agree with us. How much time would you still need, do you

21 think?

22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I'll do my best to go over the material.

23 I think I probably need -- well, depending on how we go, because it may,

24 again, be material that sparks some inquiry by the Chamber, but I'm

25 estimating an hour.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, that's a response the Chamber could

2 expect, that it also depends --

3 MR. TIEGER: I'm not trying to discourage the Court's inquiry - I

4 understand it - I just want -- accept it and it has to be calculated in

5 accordingly.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's try to -- because, Mr. Josse, you need

7 some considerable time as well, I take it.

8 MR. JOSSE: I'm planning a lengthy re-examination, taking up the

9 offer of the Chamber to do exactly that.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That's only fair, yes. We'll have a break now for 25

11 minutes, but how much time would you guess you would need, approximately?

12 MR. JOSSE: An hour and a half.

13 JUDGE ORIE: An hour and a half.

14 Then, Mr. Tieger, you're invited to see -- I'm not counting the

15 time taken by the Chamber, to finish in 45 minutes.

16 MR. TIEGER: Well, Your Honour, I will indicate to the Court I

17 will spend the recess doing my best to pare it down.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

19 MR. JOSSE: I wish to address the issue of P1104 at some stage.

20 It was an insinuation, it was a suggestion by me that my learned friend's

21 cross-examination was unfair in relation to that document, and I wish to

22 make that clear at some juncture.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Not necessarily at this very moment.

24 We'll then adjourn and we'll resume at 20 minutes past 4.00.

25 --- Recess taken at 3.57 p.m.

1 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stewart, did I understand well that you would

3 like to raise a procedural issue?

4 MR. STEWART: Yes, Your Honour, thank you. It's a very short

5 matter, but, Your Honour, it relates to -- well, Your Honour, would you

6 forgive me for a moment, because following yesterday I'm just checking

7 something. Your Honour, it relates to a witness, but it's a matter of a

8 fairly personal nature, Your Honour, and it would require very, very brief

9 closed session so that I can just say what it is.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We turn into closed session for a moment.

11 [Private session]

12 (redacted)

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24 (redacted)

25 [Open session]

1 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

3 Madam Usher, could you try and see whether the witness could again

4 be brought to the courtroom.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 [The witness entered court]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Radojko.

8 Mr. Tieger, you may proceed.

9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Q. Mr. Radojko, please turn to tab 42. The minutes of the 45th

11 Session of the Board of Commissioners - maybe I'll check the original on

12 that - held on 31 July 1992, and I'd like you to look specifically at the

13 decision under agenda item 2. Top of the page of the English at page 2,

14 and it begins with the words: "Rajko Novakovic, Dragan Milanovic, Drago

15 Gacesa discussed the questions asked. Following the discussion, the Board

16 of Commissioners adopted a Decision to appoint a commission for the

17 departure of Muslims. Those appointed to the commission are: Jovica

18 Sepa, Dragan Gacesa, Obrad Vrzina, Jovo Radojko and Dragan Ivanic.

19 "The commission will establish who can leave the Petrovac

20 Municipality and the condition will be for them to exchange their property

21 or to give it to the state, that is, to the Serbian Municipality of

22 Petrovac; those who have such a certificate will de-register themselves at

23 the public security station and will be able to leave the Petrovac public

24 security area in an organised manner."

25 That's the commission you were referring to earlier, Mr. Radojko?

1 A. I haven't found it yet, or maybe I'm looking at the wrong

2 document, but I recall this from my earlier testimony. That's 42, isn't

3 it?

4 Q. That's correct --

5 A. Tab 42, right?

6 Q. That's correct. It's a meeting that was held on 31 July 1992.

7 A. I found it now. Undoubtedly the members of the commission are

8 listed here. That's the commission I was appointed to whilst I was on the

9 front line, but I know that the commission never met and never did

10 anything. At least, I took no part in it and I suppose they would have

11 invited me.

12 Q. Let's look --

13 A. Oh, yes, I've found this section. Sepa, Gacesa, Vrzina; five of

14 them in total.

15 Q. Okay. And Vrzina's the military representative of the Crisis

16 Staff, correct?

17 A. That's right.

18 Q. Gacesa the police representative?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Sepa, his position?

21 A. Sepa was the chief of municipal general administration. He was

22 the head of the municipal staff.

23 Q. Ivanic, was he the president of the SDS?

24 A. I believe so. I believe that he was at the time. Yes, actually,

25 I'm certain of it.

1 Q. Let's look next, please, at tab 41.

2 MR. TIEGER: By the way, Your Honour, for the record tab 42 was

3 P90, tab 39.

4 P41 needs a number.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P1106.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

7 MR. TIEGER:

8 Q. P41, Mr. Radojko, is a statement by the president of the

9 commission, Obrad Vrzina, stating that: "Pursuant to decision number -"

10 and it's listed - "of the War Presidency dated 31 July 1992, Muslims may

11 move away voluntarily on the following conditions:

12 1. If they sign a contract on the exchange of immovable property.

13 2. If they sign a statement giving their immovable property to the

14 state."

15 And then the last sentence of the next paragraph indicates that:

16 "Immovable property may be given to close relatives from mixed marriages."

17 So that was an act by the president of the commission which was

18 responding to the decision of the War Presidency on 31 July 1992.

19 Correct?

20 A. Yes, I believe that's absolutely right. And when you say -- and

21 what you say, an act by the president, of course means that he probably

22 drafted this himself.

23 Q. All right. And now I would like to turn quickly to tabs 44 and 45

24 and look at the couple of records and ask you if those are records of

25 people attempting to fulfil the conditions established by the commission

1 for moving out pursuant to the decision of the War Presidency.

2 MR. TIEGER: Tab -- I think these both need numbers -- I'm sorry,

3 44 is P90, tab 40, and both of them are located at that tab, Your Honour.

4 Q. So P44 indicates a record that is signed by Samir Hodzic. P45

5 indicates a record signed by Smajlo Mumicehajic. Both of those,

6 Mr. Radojko, indicate a declaration that the undersigned declares in his

7 name with regard to specified residential property, et cetera, that: "I

8 concede it permanently to the Petrovac Municipal Assembly.

9 "I have made this declaration with full responsibility, without

10 coercion and in full consciousness of my declaration, for the purpose of

11 obtaining the necessary documentation for permanent departure from and

12 leaving Petrovac municipality."

13 These are in fact the documents that were required pursuant to the

14 conditions that we looked at just a moment ago, enabling Muslims to

15 de-register and leave Petrovac municipality. Correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And I'll ask you this question because I think the Court may ask

18 it if I don't: You talked a great deal about the efforts of the

19 municipality to take care of the Muslims' property and anticipate their

20 return. This document indicates that these people are obliged, in order

21 to leave the municipality, to sign it over permanently to the Petrovac

22 municipality in order to obtain their permanent departure, doesn't it?

23 A. I was giving you my understanding of the events and what the legal

24 situation was. I've already seen such type of documents as we can see

25 under 41. Even before they started filling these forms out, I told them

1 that this was null and void and that, indeed, such a document could never

2 be valid, under no circumstances. Very few of these were produced, in

3 fact, because they realised that it was pointless. Formally speaking, you

4 are right, but I was already referring to this.

5 Q. Mr. --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, I have some problems in 44, 45. What

7 appears on 45 in English is certainly not a translation of what I find in

8 B/C/S under 45. Let me just check with my colleagues. Yes, that's true

9 for everyone as far as I can see.

10 What I find in the original is at least a list of six persons

11 and --

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I think it's -- as you can see, let me

13 interrupt, and I apologise.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

15 MR. TIEGER: And you can see from 44, it was an obvious -- what

16 appears to be -- to correspond precisely to the English translation --

17 JUDGE ORIE: 44's fine, yes.

18 MR. TIEGER: And I think --

19 JUDGE ORIE: But 45 we find approximately a similar translation

20 into English, but a -- 10th of August -- yes. It very much looks like the

21 English version of 44, although it's a bit different, no handwriting on it

22 in the translation. But most of it the same. But the original is

23 something quite different.

24 MR. TIEGER: Right. And I -- as you -- the Court may see also

25 that these are -- I think these documents were submitted sequentially, so

1 the translation ERN is 03009090 for 44; for 45 it's 9091.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I've seen that.

3 MR. TIEGER: So I think, unfortunately, the B/C/S document here

4 simply doesn't correspond, but we --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

6 MR. TIEGER: -- can provide it. I don't think it creates any

7 problem at this point since --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it doesn't create a huge problem, but of course

9 I would like to know what actually the document is under 45, where it

10 seems not to be what the English translation says it is. Totally

11 different documents.

12 MR. TIEGER: No, I agree.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. If you could try to find the good one.

14 MR. TIEGER:

15 Q. Mr. Radojko --

16 MR. TIEGER: And thank you for that, Your Honour. I will attend

17 to it immediately.

18 Q. Mr. Radojko, if you could turn to tab 49, please. This is a 21

19 October proposal on the distribution -- the way of the war booty

20 distribution pursuant to the decision of the War Presidency of Petrovac

21 municipality. It indicates resigning commission president Jovo Radojko --

22 MR. TIEGER: This needs a number, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.

24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P1101 [sic], Your Honours.

25 MR. TIEGER:

1 Q. And I don't want to spend time on this, Mr. Radojko, at least not

2 unnecessary time. Is it correct that, at least for a period of time, you

3 were the commission president of the Petrovac municipality commission for

4 the collection and distribution of war booty and booties gained in other

5 ways?

6 A. I was appointed to that duty and, as you were able to see, I

7 resigned pretty soon. But they never accepted my resignation. I even

8 asked for my resignation to be accepted in writing on several occasions,

9 and each time they refused to. There was a decree number 899 -- from

10 1992, which was published in the Official Gazette of the Republika Srpska,

11 issue number 8, wherein the commission was appointed.

12 Q. And just to be clear, the booty referred to is exclusively, or at

13 least primarily, property that had once been owned by Muslims. Isn't that

14 right?

15 A. At the time of my appointment, different matters were involved,

16 but most often they were vehicles brought over from the war-affected

17 areas. I suppose that these were items leftover by the Muslims in the

18 area. This area was north-west of -- the north-western part of Bihac

19 municipality. Later on they collected the livestock that was left behind

20 by the Muslims who left Petrovac, and they stationed themselves on a farm

21 there. As this was done arbitrarily, I resigned because I refused to

22 continue doing things and signing things I thought were unacceptable.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Judge Hanoteau would like to ask a question.

24 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Yes. You said -- for 44 and 45,

25 let's go back to 44 and 45. If you could go back to 44 and 45.

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have gone to that tab, Your

2 Honour.

3 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] I would like to get your reaction

4 to these forms that were drafted. You told us: [In English] "Even before

5 filling these forms out, I told them that this was null and void and that,

6 indeed, such a document could never be valid, under no such

7 circumstances."

8 [Interpretation] So apart from the fact that this document is

9 valid or not valid or that it would have a legal value or not, what's your

10 feeling about the fact that even people had the idea of coming up with

11 this kind of document? What's your reaction when you see this kind of

12 document? I'm not talking about the legal aspect of things, but what do

13 you think about this? What's your feeling behind this? The legal

14 analysis that you make is maybe interesting, but what's your gut feeling?

15 What was your gut feeling when you knew about these forms? And now that

16 we tell you about these forms, what's the gut feeling that you have?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After all the things that happened,

18 my reaction is much milder than it was at the time. This type of form

19 under 45 I was able to see back in time when Milka Jevic, head of

20 administration, showed it to me. I knew that they had developed a

21 document and I wanted to read it. I told everyone I met that this was

22 nonsense, pointless, and idiotic. As the events unfolded, this proved to

23 be pointless and unnecessary. I don't know what happened at the end of

24 the day, but I know that people stopped showing up to sign such records.

25 I know that very few such statements were, in fact, signed compared to the

1 numbers that could have been made. My reaction was quite sharp. Now,

2 what would I say to that today? Well, we have had a legal system in place

3 for at least 2.000 years.

4 I have some family experience in connection with this, and I knew

5 that sooner or later this was going to be revoked in legal terms and that

6 this was untenable. It simply served to produce a further negative image

7 of the people. When I look at the document, I see something that's --

8 JUDGE ORIE: There is a technical problem with microphones with

9 the French booth, from what I understand.

10 [French spoken]

11 THE INTERPRETER: It's working again, Mr. Chairman, it's working

12 again, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I now get a message that the problem has been

14 resolved.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ORIE: I just wonder what was lost. I asked Judge Hanoteau

17 whether he was listening to the French channel, but he was listening to

18 the English channel. Could the interpreters give us an impression on

19 where they may have had these problems?

20 THE INTERPRETER: The English booth encountered no problems, Your

21 Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's gone off again. I understand. It's not

23 the English booth. The French booth has the problem and whenever you have

24 the problem it starts ticking in my earphones. Is it working again? I'm

25 now addressing the French booth.

1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

2 JUDGE ORIE: I receive no answer on the French channel, so it's --

3 the technicians are going to assist us.

4 I will switch to the French channel and see whether it's not yet

5 resolved.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 JUDGE ORIE: We're asked to have a break of ten minutes to fix the

8 issue, but I would then prefer to have a break until a quarter past 5.00

9 and then continue until 7.00 once we've returned. I'm afraid -- otherwise

10 we would need two breaks and that usually takes more time. We'll, for

11 technical reasons, have an early second break and we'll resume at quarter

12 past 5.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 4.54 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 5.20 p.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

16 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Mr. Radojko, you made mention before the break of your concern

18 over the negative image that might result from the certificates we looked

19 at. In fact, pursuant to the instructions of President Novakovic, you

20 were the person in charge of contact with the media, generally speaking,

21 weren't you? And here I'm quoting from your testimony in the Brdjanin

22 case from page 20196.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't hear anything.

24 JUDGE ORIE: My channel was at 0 when I re-entered the courtroom.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It seems to be okay now.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

2 Mr. Tieger, could you please repeat your question so that

3 Mr. Radojko can hear it.

4 MR. TIEGER: Certainly, Your Honour.

5 Q. Mr. Radojko, you made mention before the break of your concern

6 over the negative image that might result from the certificates we

7 reviewed. In fact, pursuant to the instructions of President Novakovic,

8 you were the person in charge of contact with the media, generally

9 speaking, weren't you? And here I'm quoting from your testimony in the

10 Brdjanin case from page 20196.

11 Did you hear the question, Mr. Radojko?

12 A. I did. I was just expecting you to continue. But I was not

13 worried about the image, I was worried about the possible consequences

14 arising from this --

15 Q. Mr. Radojko, sorry. I apologise to -- the question is: You were

16 the person in charge of contact with the media, generally speaking.

17 Correct?

18 A. Yes, I was, to a certain extent, except in case the president

19 changed his mind.

20 Q. In that connection, let me direct your attention quickly to a

21 couple of entries in your diary; first the August 10th entry, English at

22 129, B/C/S at 118. That's tab 4. This is a matter, Mr. Radojko, you

23 testified about during the Brdjanin case and it's translated here as:

24 "Announcement: The Balic family was killed by Muslim extremists ...

25 "A propaganda campaign is underway for all Muslims to move out,

1 which is unacceptable." And it was discussed during the course of the

2 Brdjanin case as a press release, so I take it that's what's meant by

3 "announcement." Did you find that entry, sir?

4 Okay. So is it correct you were tasked to issue a press release

5 that the Balic family was killed by Muslim extremists and to say that a

6 propaganda campaign is underway for all Muslims to move out, which is

7 unacceptable?

8 A. It's totally wrong. I don't see how you're establishing a link

9 between myself and the press communique. I may have been in charge of

10 drafting something on behalf of the municipality, but the press published

11 what they liked. If it's a family where the son and the daughter and the

12 husband and, in fact, the wife had been killed, I do remember the event.

13 But as to this communique or anything, I mean, it was not up to the

14 municipality or the Crisis Staff. It was the media people, the people who

15 worked for the radio station, who did it.

16 Q. And that communique -- what they --

17 A. I haven't found that bit of text yet.

18 JUDGE ORIE: May I just ask, Mr. Tieger. You said you remember

19 the event. Was the Balic family killed by Muslim extremists or not?

20 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, the witness said he hadn't found the text

21 in his -- in the diary. I think he could do that by --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it's just. It's on page -- well, of course --

23 MR. TIEGER: Page 118 if -- of the --

24 Q. You'll see the numbers on the side of the --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's --

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date when -- oh, okay, page 118

2 of the diary.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is on the left, top, in B/C/S. You found

4 it, Mr. Radojko?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The meeting with the Crisis Staff,

6 the 28th of May, 1992. Is that it?

7 JUDGE ORIE: No, it's not. It's -- Madam Usher, if you could

8 please take the witness to -- in the B/C/S version to page 118, and if you

9 look at that, it's at the left column at the top. There are some

10 numbers --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When to convene the meeting of the

12 Crisis Staff with the command of the brigade at 1300 hours. And it says

13 here: Special indication, 0, that means it cannot be held because these

14 people cannot attend. Is that it?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, if you would give me the copy, then ...

16 That's page 62.

17 Yes, Mr. Tieger, the confusion is that we find numbers at the

18 bottom of the page as well as -- several places it's numbered. Different

19 system.

20 You found it, Mr. Radojko?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: My question was whether the Balic family was killed

23 by Muslim extremists.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Initially that was

25 the idea, and afterwards I made inquiries and I don't think this was the

1 case. The police initially announced that, as far as I know, but I talked

2 to colleagues about this, colleagues who were in charge of the inquiry;

3 and their impression was that it hadn't been the case, in fact.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 Mr. Tieger, please proceed.

6 MR. TIEGER:

7 Q. When asked about this in your Brdjanin testimony, Mr. Radojko, the

8 following occurred. You were asked: "Okay. Who was saying that all the

9 Muslims should move out, which you were writing down as unacceptable?

10 "A. This is about a language barrier. This note is a crude

11 observation, a crude note. These are instructions that I had been given

12 by the president so that I would work them over and then pass them on to

13 the press. But what it means is that for the press, what I should say,

14 there is a propaganda underway, obviously not specifying who it's coming

15 from, that all the Muslims -- for all the Muslims to move out, and that

16 this propaganda was unacceptable.

17 "Q. Yes. But it's not that difficult a question, Judge. Was it

18 the Muslims who were putting out this propaganda, in inverted commas, that

19 they should move out, or was it Serbs putting out propaganda that all

20 Muslims should be moved out?

21 "A. Here, that's precisely the problem. What the idea was, it

22 was to tell the press that the Muslims themselves were authors of this

23 propaganda, with the objective of them moving out, or rather, some of

24 their representatives.

25 "Q. Was that true, that the Muslims themselves were putting out

1 the propaganda that they should move out?

2 "A. My impression was -- is that they were not carrying on with

3 this propaganda but, because of the circumstances, they were asking for

4 shelter."

5 That's an accurate reflection of what you said in the Brdjanin

6 case. Correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radojko, would you understand that if under

9 "Announcement" two items are listed, of which one, as you said, most

10 likely is not true and the other is not true, and the second one was an

11 instruction you received how to present certain matters in the press, that

12 it could come into the mind of someone who reads this and who hears your

13 testimony that the first line might also have been what you are supposed

14 to tell the press?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I haven't quite understood you, but

16 I'm going to try and explain what this is about. When it says

17 "Information," these are two sets of instructions that I was given by the

18 president and I was supposed to draft a brief summary for him. You know,

19 at the time when this was going on, it was probably straight after the

20 event, that was the attitude.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And on the basis of that, I probably

23 drafted a brief text. And the president probably forwarded it --

24 forwarded it to the media. I don't know whether he added anything.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, perhaps it's helpful to add one --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You, in one of your previous answers,

3 Mr. Radojko, when asked about whether you were tasked to issue a press

4 release that the Balic family was killed, et cetera, your answer was:

5 "That's totally wrong. I don't see how you're establishing a link between

6 myself and the press communique," and then you explained that it was the

7 press who published that and not that you were involved. Now we are ten

8 minutes later and you say: "It may well have been that I was tasked with

9 preparing a text for the press," and of course if you give a press

10 communique, then there's a fair chance that they would publish it, isn't

11 it, or do I misunderstand your testimony?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm going to try and explain. What

13 I'm saying is that presumably the president gave me instructions on the

14 basis of which I was supposed to write a draft for him in case he was

15 asked to make a statement. I don't know whether he did. Other than that,

16 there was a radio station in the municipality and the coverage that -- the

17 broadcasts didn't go further than 1 kilometre away from the radio

18 transmitter. As to whether he made any statements to any other media, I

19 do not know. And apart from that, there was a foreign correspondent as

20 well there who used to write anything and everything, and at any rate the

21 media used to report in a totally responsible way.

22 So after all this time I can't really remember. This was not my

23 actual job. This was something I did on the side, as it were, for the

24 president, and somebody else - perhaps the secretary of the Assembly - was

25 supposed to do that, but he found it convenient to ask me to do this, and

1 presumably I drafted a short text for him; and what happened to the text

2 afterwards, I do not know. But I suppose I did write the draft for him,

3 judging by the look of the text.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

5 Mr. Josse, I think it's fair to tell you that it's not all clear

6 to me. If at any other moment you could get a more consistent

7 understanding of what the witness tells us, I would like to hear because

8 I'd like to understand that, either through questioning or at a later

9 stage to explain that it is consistent rather than inconsistent.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

11 MR. TIEGER:

12 Q. You mentioned the radio station, Mr. Radojko. Please turn to tab

13 32.

14 MR. TIEGER: That's P478, tab 4, Your Honours.

15 Q. That's a memo or letter from the Crisis Staff signed by

16 Mr. Novakovic, dated 18 June 1992, to the Petrovac radio station. And --

17 you have that in front of you now, Mr. Radojko?

18 A. I do.

19 Q. And it indicates that: "The position of the Crisis Staff of

20 Petrovac Municipality is that this radio station should serve solely the

21 needs of the present situation, that is, a state of war, and the goal of

22 raising the morale of the Serbian people in these decisive times when the

23 Serb -- survival of all Serbs is at stake."

24 And in the fourth paragraph, it indicates: "You should broadcast

25 as many programmes as possible with text and music designed to raise the

1 combat-readiness of the Serbian people. The purpose of such programmes

2 would be to persuade the Serbs in these difficult times, when the war is

3 being waged by forces wishing to annihilate the entire Serbian nation,

4 that the people is the army and the army is the people."

5 So the Crisis Staff, Mr. Radojko, took an active part in directing

6 the broadcasts and communications of the radio station. Correct?

7 A. As far as I can see, yes. It's actually not signed, but I suppose

8 that's what they did write. And I know that the editor would occasionally

9 visit the president, and I do suppose that they coordinated their

10 activities.

11 Q. Please turn to tab 23. Let's look at one of those broadcasts.

12 MR. TIEGER: P90, tab 6.

13 Q. That broadcast, as transcribed here, indicates: "Serbs and all

14 upstanding people of Krajina!

15 "Let us stem the tide of fascism! Our houses, towns and villages

16 are again being torched and destroyed! Our loved ones and our children

17 are again being slaughtered and driven out.

18 "We are fighting against Ustasha and Islamic fascists, against

19 scandalous lies and international conspiracy. We are fighting for our own

20 destiny.

21 "Let us stand up and defend our freedom, our faith, our homes, and

22 our native soil. We cannot be defeated."

23 Those were the types of broadcasts disseminated by --

24 MR. JOSSE: Read the rest of it, please. It needs to be read in

25 context, in my submission.

1 MR. TIEGER:

2 Q. "Military conscripts!

3 "Because of the seriousness of the situation at the front, report

4 to your assigned locations at each call by the Command. In order to

5 create a new Serbian state we must win this war.

6 "People of Petrovac!

7 "Do not be taken in by any disinformation. You can get the real

8 information via Radio Petrovac between 1000 and 1300 hours every day

9 except Monday, because the station is provided with a permanent electrical

10 supply."

11 Mr. Radojko, are these the kind of broadcasts disseminated by

12 Radio Petrovac to the people of Petrovac?

13 A. I do not know. I can't be sure that this was published or

14 broadcast. There's no signature here or anything, but I can say that

15 there was a great deal of war propaganda on all sides; that's the way

16 things worked. It is indeed possible that they broadcast this sort of

17 thing.

18 JUDGE HANOTEAU: [Interpretation] Would it mean that there was more

19 than one radio station in Petrovac?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. There was just one

21 small radio station, and they didn't even have a proper transmitter. They

22 used a small transmitter in town. Perhaps they would cover an area of

23 about a square kilometre, not even that one. But what I'm saying is that

24 all media, no matter what broadcaster media you listened to, Serb or some

25 other, there was a similar sort of propaganda, and everybody did that from

1 their point of view. It is for this reason that I'm saying, yes, indeed,

2 it is possible that this might have been broadcast in this way, because

3 this was a general phenomenon.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, is there any time-frame known?

5 MR. TIEGER: June, I think, was the time-frame I had on that. I

6 don't know if it was -- if that was obtained -- that's the time-frame

7 indicated. I can check it with more accuracy, whether it was obtained or

8 determined --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It does not appear --

10 MR. TIEGER: -- the text earlier from some other way --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed.

12 MR. TIEGER:

13 Q. You focussed on the limited distribution of Radio Petrovac,

14 Mr. Radojko. Please turn to tab 47, but first let me -- tab 47, that's

15 fine.

16 MR. TIEGER: And that is P90, tab 41.

17 Q. Now, this refers to the departure of Muslims from the area of

18 radio -- of Bosanski Petrovac, as we can see in that first paragraph. It

19 speaks about the column of seven buses with special escort, but

20 information from the Petrovac office for the exchange of population and

21 property, describing how many men and women and children have departed.

22 And then in the final paragraph: "According to Serbian and municipal War

23 Presidency sources, the departure of Petrovac Muslims can in no way be

24 compared with ethnic cleansing. Not a single Muslim from this area has

25 left under pressure but of their own free will."

1 Now, at the bottom we see Pero Dosen involved in this. Pero Dosen

2 was the chief at Radio Petrovac. Isn't that right?

3 A. Yes, he was -- or maybe the director or something like that. But

4 at any rate he was a guy who used to come to see the president. Although,

5 for propaganda reasons, there are various phrases here that I had never

6 heard of, such as the office for the exchange of population, and I suppose

7 I was well-placed to know. There is a great deal of propaganda in this

8 text.

9 MR. TIEGER: I'm getting the French translation. I don't know if

10 there's a --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there seems to be a problem.

12 MR. TIEGER: Now --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Now it seems to be rectified.

14 MR. TIEGER:

15 Q. And you were asked about this during the course of the Brdjanin

16 case, Mr. Radojko, and you were asked: "In your view, the expression

17 'not a single Muslim from this area has left under pressure but of his own

18 free will,' was that accurate?"

19 And you answered: "Of course it's not true."

20 And that's correct, isn't it?

21 A. Of course. That's what I mean when I talk about propaganda.

22 Q. And that's the same thing that Dr. Karadzic was doing when he was

23 quoted in the Reuters article, P1104, as saying: "Bosnian Serb leader

24 Radovan Karadzic has denied in engaging in 'ethnic cleansing.'

25 "'The West is accusing us of ethnic cleansing.' ... 'They are

1 wrong. At least we are not forcing people to stay as Muslims are doing

2 with Serbs in Sarajevo and other Bosnian towns.'"

3 Correct?

4 A. I have no idea what Karadzic used to say, but I haven't quite

5 understood. Am I supposed to confirm or deny this statement by Karadzic?

6 Q. First of all, the statement by Dr. Karadzic is wrong, isn't it?

7 A. You mean that nobody has been forced to leave?

8 Q. Correct.

9 A. We are talking about August at this stage. Right? Or is this

10 statement from September?

11 Q. No, it's August, as you see in the document, August 13th, 1992,

12 was the date of that.

13 A. August then. And my date here is the 13th of September, in fact.

14 That's why I'm asking. The document coming from Pero Dosen.

15 Q. Sir, from June --

16 MR. JOSSE: He's not looking at P1104. Perhaps he could have it

17 in front of him, please.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do we have to go through --

19 MR. JOSSE: It is extremely -- well, Your Honour, could I say for

20 my part I regard this as extremely important. And yes, we do have to go

21 through this.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If you ...

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 13th of August, right.

24 In our area, in our municipality, his statement could have

25 applied, even though those were the last people who left before the large

1 exodus, and they were forced to leave. So those couple of buses that also

2 encountered considerable difficulties that I have already described here,

3 they did leave of their own free will and they didn't manage to get

4 through, and then they joined this larger group afterwards. But what I'm

5 saying is this only refers to the area of my own municipality. There's

6 nothing I can say about the others. I cannot say whether this statement

7 would apply to anyone else.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger --

9 MR. TIEGER:

10 Q. Mr. --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Not much time is left today --

12 MR. TIEGER: Moving quickly, Your Honour, just a couple more

13 points, and I've made a point of being within the 45 minutes the Court

14 asked me to be in. Is there --

15 JUDGE ORIE: I'll -- yes. Unfortunately, my time recording -- I

16 couldn't start at halfway, so I'm not perfectly certain, but a couple of

17 more questions and then it's for the Defence.

18 MR. TIEGER:

19 Q. Mr. Radojko, I want to bring your attention to a few things you

20 said during the course of your Brdjanin testimony. First, at page 20106,

21 you spoke about a meeting that the -- you talk about the time period of

22 end of May and beginning of June, it appears, in context, end of May, 28th

23 of the fifth, and talked about a meeting that the brigade command did not

24 want to attend.

25 And then you said -- and then you were asked why they didn't want

1 to attend, and you said: "At that time the Crisis Staff kept telling them

2 that they were responsible for the large-scale plunder and disorder and

3 all the rest, and their representatives did not like that at all."

4 Correct?

5 A. That's correct.

6 Q. And at page 20102, you said that: "... a negligible number of

7 people --" that is, in context, it's people in uniform -- "were arrested

8 and only some went through disciplinary proceedings before military organs

9 and they were simply sent to other units that were far away from our area,

10 but this was a very small number."

11 That's also correct, isn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. The final things I want to ask you, sir, are first, I think as you

14 indicated before, at page 20137 of the transcript, Mr. Novakovic told

15 everyone -- personally urged everyone to respect the decisions. And you

16 testified about that before. You also said at page 27 of your interview

17 that: "The president kept saying all the time: 'Everybody just needs to

18 know what they need to know for their work.'"

19 Is that correct?

20 A. Well, yes, that's something he pointed out quite frequently.

21 Q. So he didn't share with you the contents of his conversation with

22 Dr. Karadzic on February 20 -- on February 7th, 1992, that we listened to

23 before?

24 MR. JOSSE: That last quote was not in context, in my submission.

25 He needs more of it. It's just not fair. It's been taken out of context.

1 Context of it is essential.

2 MR. TIEGER: I'm going to move on, Your Honour.

3 MR. JOSSE: I object. I don't accept that, Your Honour. The

4 quote's put. In my submission, it needs to be put properly and fairly.

5 MR. TIEGER: Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood the objection. My

6 apologies.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm lost, to be quite honest, Mr. Josse, but I think

8 if the parties resolve the matter, then it's --

9 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Josse wants the -- as I understand it, Your

10 Honour, wants the full quote in -- the question and answer --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Of the, "Everybody just needs to know ..." Yes,

12 okay.

13 MR. TIEGER:

14 Q. "Q. Okay. And after returning from the Main Board meetings in

15 Sarajevo would he brief the other members of the Municipal Board about

16 decisions and orders that were to be implemented?

17 "A. They would call meetings when necessary, but those people who

18 were in the know, who had the contacts, I don't think they told us

19 everything, they just told us on a need-to-know basis. The first

20 president, I believe he treated me fairly. I believe we were friends,

21 even though we knew each other very briefly. He kept saying -- I'm a very

22 curious person by nature, but he kept saying all the time: 'Everyone just

23 needs to know what they need to know for their work.'

24 "Q. You're referring to Novakovic?

25 "A. Yes."

1 That's all correct, sir?

2 A. That's fully correct.

3 Q. With respect to doing -- responding to directives or orders, you

4 were asked about that, that is communications or directives from above,

5 during the course of your Brdjanin testimony, and you said the following

6 in three different areas:

7 "Q. I think you've already explained it but in relation to that

8 decision of the Crisis Staff, as -- you gave the answer in an interview,

9 this is at page 82, that the letter that you got from the Crisis Staff or

10 the decision didn't have the form of an order but it was obligatory, it

11 was mandatory. Do you still adhere to that answer?

12 "A. Yes, I still adhere to that answer. That's the way it is.

13 You can see for yourselves here, from these documents, that that's exactly

14 the way it was. I've already said that a personal relationships vis-a-vis

15 certain office holders were one thing whereas the observance of rules in

16 terms of what had been established is a completely different thing because

17 it would be very dangerous, for example, for the president or for the

18 entire Crisis Staff if they had not accepted and observed the decisions

19 that were formally binding on them."

20 First of all, that's correct, isn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. At 20345 through 46 you were asked:

23 "Q. Absolutely. And that's the truth, isn't it, as you told

24 Mr. Cunningham, that you would be held accountable if you tried to go

25 against the instructions of the Crisis Staff of the region?

1 "A. Yes. Yes. The municipal leadership would have been held

2 accountable."

3 And at 20141 -- excuse me. 20140. Judge Agius asked: "It's a

4 long way around but basically my mind is still working on this. What

5 would have been the consequences or consequence or consequences had the

6 Crisis Staff of Bosanski Petrovac not implemented that decision, had they

7 kept all those employees in their employment? What would you have

8 expected to happen? Or what was the feeling at that time if those

9 decisions were not implemented?

10 "A. Well, there is no doubt that we would have been removed from

11 the places which we held. There were two mechanisms that they used to

12 bring pressure. One was informal, through people, through the population,

13 and they would simply -- they would apply various methods to start

14 hounding us, to start protesting against what we did, on various occasions

15 armed men broke into our offices and there was also a different pressure

16 constantly brought through the army, and you can see it from the

17 evidence."

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, the Chamber is going to stop you. The

19 Chamber by now perhaps already regrets the way we're dealing with the

20 Brdjanin testimony. It's not admitted into evidence. Now portions of it

21 are read. I mean, where it came to confronting the witness with certain

22 documents, that made sense; it could have been dealt with. I do not know

23 whether that was done in Brdjanin as well, but the course it takes now is

24 not assisting the Chamber in any way. Therefore, we are stopping you

25 here. If there's anything of a different kind, one or two questions you

1 would like to put to the witness, fine, but not more reading of Brdjanin

2 and then ask whether that's correct, whether the witness testified that.

3 The Chamber will consider whether we'll let this happen again, although it

4 was a very specific situation in which you finally withdrew the witness

5 from your list and that he appeared on the Defence list. That's something

6 I think we have not had before.

7 Any other question, apart from reading transcripts?

8 MR. TIEGER: No. I'll stop, Your Honour. Let me say, this is

9 clearly not my preferred way of dealing with the matter either, but I

10 don't know that I was left with any choice under the circumstances to read

11 -- other than to ask questions and then to respond with sections of the

12 transcript, but we can save that for another time.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 Mr. Josse, would you please start your re-examination --

15 MR. JOSSE: I could have some observations about that, but there's

16 a matter of law I wish to raise in the absence of the witness.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, a matter of law.

18 Then, Mr. Radojko, could I invite you to just follow the usher for

19 a short moment since Mr. Josse would like to raise a matter in your

20 absence.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse.

23 MR. JOSSE: I should say I did -- have given Mr. Tieger advance

24 notice of this point. In my submission, the Prosecution have not complied

25 with the Rule 90(H)(ii) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, which says

1 that: "In the cross-examination of a witness who is able to give evidence

2 relevant to the case for the cross-examining party, counsel shall put to

3 the witness the nature of the case of the party for whom that counsel

4 appears which is in contradiction of the evidence given by a witness."

5 This witness has said that ethnic cleansing did not take place in

6 Petrovac. It's the Prosecution case that it did take place in Petrovac, I

7 assume. This has not been put to the witness. My learned friend

8 pussy-footed around - frankly, I used that very expression to him in our

9 counsel-to-counsel expression - and in my submission he should put to the

10 witness his case and he should put to the witness the case that, one,

11 ethnic cleansing took place; and two, my client and the Pale leadership

12 were responsible for it, and he's not done that.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger.

14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I believe it couldn't be clearer that

15 the -- well, let me just put this in context. First of all, I rose to

16 begin my examination of this witness after the Defence put him on as

17 somebody to just talk about how difficult the convoys were, knowing, I

18 presume, that I would be obliged to elicit document after document and

19 prior testimony after prior testimony excerpt about detentions,

20 dismissals, persecution, mass expulsions and the like, and directives,

21 following directives from above in that connection.

22 Now, in terms of -- I'll be happy to put -- if we're going to

23 indulge in some kind of formalistic exercise, I'll put this question,

24 because the question was put in the course of the Brdjanin case, and I'll

25 cite the specific portion of the testimony where this witness acknowledged

1 that what happened in Petrovac was ethnic cleansing. But I think it's

2 already clear by now.

3 Secondly -- excuse me, Your Honour, I'm sorry, but if I could just

4 finish the one -- this is a witness who just said he doesn't have any idea

5 what Radovan Karadzic said about ethnic cleansing and he's proffered by

6 the Defence as somebody who's in a position to tell us about

7 Mr. Krajisnik's authority. Now, I'll ask him that, too, if it's

8 formalistically necessary, but I don't find it to be.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse --

10 MR. JOSSE: I've chosen --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

12 MR. JOSSE: I've chosen this witness in particular to make this

13 particular observation because the Prosecution called him in Brdjanin.

14 And, in my submission, it's perhaps no coincidence that they haven't put

15 those questions to him in the course of this case. This was a witness

16 they wanted to call; they decided not to call him, I accept, for time

17 consideration.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's be -- let's try to resolve the matter.

19 You think that under Rule 90(H)(ii), that Mr. Tieger should have put to

20 the witness that it was the Prosecutor's case that ethnic cleansing took

21 place in Petrovac, that's one; and two, that this was done under the

22 responsibility of Pale, that's --

23 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: -- the way I understand it. Okay.

25 Now, isn't the background of this rule that it would be unfair to

1 a witness that, not being aware of what the Prosecutor's case would be,

2 that he would not be in a possibility to respond to what the Prosecutor's

3 case is, so therefore perhaps it would be a solution if I would ask the

4 witness whether he understood -- because of course implicitly, I mean, if

5 you are asking a lot of questions about propaganda and it was not ethnic

6 cleansing because there was never any pressure put upon those who left,

7 and if you then say: Is that true? No, it's not true, because pressure

8 was put upon them, that almost already implies that it's the Prosecution's

9 case that there was ethnic cleansing. But if we would ask the witness

10 whether he has understood that although it was not explicitly told to him,

11 and if he says no, then I could invite him to respond to that position.

12 And if he says, Yes, that's what I understood, then I think no damage

13 could further exist because the witness understood it to be that way and,

14 therefore, has been in the position to comment on it. And if he would

15 further comment on it, I would give him an opportunity to do so.

16 MR. JOSSE: In our submission, that's not an acceptable compromise

17 because --

18 JUDGE ORIE: It's not a compromise. I talked about a solution,

19 it's not about a compromise.

20 MR. JOSSE: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I didn't mean any disrespect

21 by that. Because it's the Prosecutor's job, it's not the Court's job.

22 This rule is an adversarial rule, designed for an adversarial system, and

23 requires an adversarial solution, and it's Mr. Tieger's job, with respect,

24 not Your Honours'.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, there's another matter. You're

1 complaining about Mr. Tieger violating a rule. Then of course it might be

2 the concern of the Chamber to verify whether, if there was any such

3 violation of the rule, whether any damage effect would have been there for

4 the Defence and therefore goes -- tries to find what's the basis of the

5 rule and sees whether on that basis ... So I think I would disagree with

6 you that the Chamber -- I would agree with you that it may have been the

7 obligation of the Prosecutor, but once you start telling the Chamber that

8 this rule is violated, then it becomes the concern of the Chamber as well

9 what the effect of such possible violation would have been.

10 MR. JOSSE: But I'm --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, nevertheless, nevertheless, we still

12 could give an opportunity to Mr. Tieger to explicitly put it to the

13 witness, to see whether he has any further comment. Then I think you're

14 satisfied that it's the Prosecution who does it. If the Chamber would

15 have put that question to the witness, it would not be because it would

16 have taken over any Prosecution responsibility but just to investigate the

17 effect of what you say is a violation of the Rules. But we could do a --

18 we could invite Mr. Tieger to do it now before you start your

19 re-examination.

20 MR. JOSSE: That's what I'd invite the Chamber to do.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, are you willing to put that to the

22 witness? Just out of caution that if the witness might not have

23 understood that because it was not explicitly told to him, that at least

24 matters are then clear. There are two questions, two short questions.

25 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Radojko into the

1 courtroom again.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radojko, before Mr. Josse will re-examine you

5 there are two questions Mr. Tieger would like to put to you.

6 MR. TIEGER:

7 Q. Mr. Radojko, you may not have desired personally that it happened,

8 but in actual fact what happened, wasn't it, in Petrovac was ethnic

9 cleansing in the same way as all the other municipalities?

10 A. I made a distinction of the two stages because initially there was

11 no such intention. Not even in the later stage was there such an

12 intention. But it so happened that the overwhelming majority had to

13 leave, or actually almost everyone. One could say that the entire

14 community had to leave. There was no intention to ethnically cleanse

15 them, for the reasons I stated. There was an assumption that they would

16 return, because one did not expect them to come back chasing away Serbs,

17 but rather that they would return to their homes. That was at least my

18 understanding of it. And I'm not talking about it from the perspective of

19 my possible responsibility, I'm simply telling you what my impression was

20 because had there been the intention of never having them return, then the

21 whole approach taken to the property would have been different.

22 For instance, the president was trying to persuade me to move into

23 an abandoned Muslim house. This was a fact of common knowledge, something

24 quite normal for others, but I, myself, refused it. I was personally

25 convinced that they would return, and I'm equally convinced that the

1 people themselves thought that they would return. Perhaps not all of them

2 -- well, I must be honest and admit that perhaps not all of them wanted

3 to return. But I'm sure that most of them wished for peace to be

4 re-established and for all these issues to be resolved.

5 MR. TIEGER: All right. Then I'm obliged, Your Honour, to read

6 the full answer that took place in the Brdjanin case, if I may, or does

7 the Court want to --

8 JUDGE ORIE: I --

9 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. Mr. Josse, you invited us to ask

11 Mr. Tieger to put this question. So now, although we were intending not

12 to continue with any reading, but I think it's fair that Mr. --

13 MR. JOSSE: Absolutely. I couldn't possibly object.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

15 MR. TIEGER:

16 Q. Could you -- this is at page 20632. The question was asked:

17 "Could you have a look, please, at P56. These were figures compiled by

18 the SNB in Banja Luka in May of 1993. If you turn to number 20 on the

19 list, you see -- number 10, sorry. Moved out, Muslims, 3.200. Now, sir,

20 you may not have desired personally that to happen, but in actual fact

21 what happened, wasn't it, in Petrovac was ethnic cleansing in the same way

22 as all the other municipalities?

23 "A. Basically, yes, but I want to clarify because I see that

24 something is not -- misunderstood. When it comes to Muslims who moved

25 out. On the 23rd of September, Muslims who lived in the village of Bjelaj

1 stayed there, because of a very short deadline, we couldn't organise a

2 transport for them. There was a danger that we might be waylaid, that we

3 might be caught in an ambush."

4 That was your answer in the Brdjanin case, wasn't it, sir?

5 A. Yes, it was. You can see that at the time I also tried to draw a

6 distinction there, as well.

7 MR. JOSSE: Important point in the transcript. I'm sorry to be

8 pedantic. It says: "A. Yes." The answer was: "Basically, yes."

9 That's what Mr. Tieger said. It just hasn't been transcribed.

10 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree with you. He read it, but it's not on the

11 transcript.

12 MR. JOSSE: It's important, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I would agree with you. Can you please read --

14 in order to be sure the transcript is now correct, Mr. Tieger, could you

15 read the beginning: "Yes ..." and then up to where it says "but I want to

16 clarify."

17 MR. TIEGER:

18 Q. "Basically, yes, but I want to clarify."

19 JUDGE ORIE: That's in the transcript.

20 Mr. Tieger, I think there was another question to be put to the

21 witness.

22 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I apologise for this. I am being asked

23 to put -- maybe it's better for the witness to leave or at least to remove

24 his earphones.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

1 Could you take off your earphones for a second, Mr. Radojko.

2 Yes.

3 MR. TIEGER: If I'm being asked to explore this area with this

4 witness, then I believe that I'm entitled to get into a variety of things,

5 including his full knowledge base about this. This is simply -- with all

6 respect, Your Honour, this is a pat question which ignores the -- two

7 things: Number one, the fact that I have directed my full attention

8 during the course of this examination to command and control and to the

9 consequences of that, and there's never been any mistake about that;

10 number two, the limitations of this witness's knowledge. Now, if I'm

11 going to put a question to him, the kind of question that essentially

12 resembles the approach adopted by the Defence in putting him on and asking

13 him about a tiny slice of something, then I should be entitled to get into

14 the extent of this witness's knowledge about what was said -- well, the

15 full range about the knowledge the Court has, was said at Assembly

16 sessions and government sessions, and so on.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

18 Mr. Josse, perhaps one question for you. You insisted on this

19 second issue to be put to the witness under 90(H) as well. Isn't it

20 correct -- isn't it a correct understanding of Rule 90(H)(ii) that this

21 has to be put to the witness if this is the subject of the examination? I

22 do not remember, as a matter of fact, that this is -- I wouldn't say that

23 it's totally unrelated, but it's not a matter which is directly in the --

24 I mean, you don't have to explain to a witness, if you ask him a few

25 questions on a certain matter, to put the whole of the Prosecution's case.

1 So I find it fair to say that the ethnic cleansing should be -- should

2 have been put to him, but the second question is not that clear to me

3 because most of the cross-examination was about what happened at Petrovac.

4 MR. JOSSE: The only submission I would make is if it's the

5 Prosecution case that this witness must have known, did know, that

6 Mr. Krajisnik inspired the ethnic cleansing, as the Prosecution allege, in

7 some way, then it should be put to him. If that's not their case, then it

8 need not be put to him. That's the way I would put it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think the question is whether that's the subject of

10 the questions put to the witness, and you may draw whatever inferences you

11 would like, too, at a later stage about who travelled to where and what

12 telephone communications there were there, but it was certainly not a

13 direct subject of the questions put to the witness by --

14 MR. JOSSE: Rule 90(H) does not say, is silent on the point, I

15 contend, for first of all. But secondly, in fact the very objection that

16 Mr. Tieger made in relation to the first question, namely, he says he made

17 it clear through the course of his questioning that the Prosecution case

18 was that the witness was involved in ethnic cleansing, even though that

19 wasn't exactly what he ended up putting, has not been made clear so far as

20 the second limb is concerned. So the Prosecution case remains a mystery

21 to the Defence and a mystery to the witness so far as this witness's

22 knowledge of the role of Mr. Krajisnik in the events in Petrovac.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It says: "... which is in contradiction of the

24 evidence given by the witness."

25 Could you please point us to what page exactly. If that would be

1 the case, where is the --

2 MR. JOSSE: Yes --

3 JUDGE ORIE: -- specifically the responsibility of the accused.

4 Yes.

5 MR. JOSSE: Yes. I asked the witness whether the accused was

6 responsible, inspired or condoned ethnic cleansing, and he said no. I did

7 that in the course of my examination-in-chief. That contradicts the

8 evidence given by the witness, if the Prosecution -- sorry. Let me start

9 again. The Prosecution case is that that contradicts their case. That's

10 exactly what the rule is designed to cater. I repeat: Witness has said

11 the accused was not involved, didn't inspire, didn't condone. I asked

12 both those questions --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's see, on the basis of what I earlier said,

14 whether I can resolve the matter just in order to verify whether, if there

15 would be -- it's not -- it's not decided that Mr. Tieger violates the

16 rule, but just in case, if he would have, that we at least verify whether

17 it should have any consequences.

18 Mr. Radojko, could you please -- Mr. Radojko, you were asked first

19 by Mr. Josse on who may have inspired ethnic cleansing in Petrovac. After

20 that, a lot of questions were put to you by Mr. Tieger, and Mr. Tieger

21 just told you and asked you specifically whether this was ethnic cleansing

22 which took place in Petrovac. Did you understand, first of all, that the

23 Prosecution takes the position in this case that it alleges that ethnic

24 cleansing took place in Petrovac? Was that clear to you?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood that.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was it also clear to you that ethnic cleansing

2 in Petrovac, that the Prosecution alleges that Mr. Krajisnik was

3 inspiring, in whatever way, but was responsible for what happened in

4 Petrovac due to his positions and that that was the Prosecution's case,

5 from which he put all those questions to you. Was that clear to you?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood it to be along

7 those lines. Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

9 Mr. Josse, is there any need to further pursue this matter?

10 MR. JOSSE: I've made my position plain, Your Honour. I've got

11 nothing more I can usefully add.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then are you ready to start the re-examination

13 of the witness?

14 MR. JOSSE: I am.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radojko, Mr. Josse will now re-examine you.

16 Re-examination by Mr. Josse:

17 Q. Mr. Radojko, you were asked today about the destruction of mosques

18 in Petrovac. Did the municipal authorities play any part in the

19 destruction of those mosques?

20 A. I don't think they took any part in it, by no means, because this

21 came as a surprise to them and caused them some additional difficulties

22 later on.

23 Q. Did the SDS inspire people to destroy the mosques?

24 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour, I've heard that term used a

25 couple times now. I'm a little curious exactly what it means.

1 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from that, Mr. Josse, are you talking about the

2 ones who destroyed the mosque or in general terms?

3 MR. JOSSE: I'm not with Your Honour, I'm sorry.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, you say -- your question was: "Did the SDS

5 inspire people to destroy the mosques?"

6 That could have different meanings, as far as my understanding of

7 the English language goes. One way to understand that question is: Did

8 the SDS inspire the people that destroyed the mosques to do so? Another

9 way of understanding is: Did the SDS, in general, inspire people to

10 destroy mosques? Which one of the two did you have in mind?

11 MR. JOSSE: Well, I had in mind the specific mosques in Petrovac.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is it possible, where the witness said that he

13 doesn't know who destroyed the mosques, to answer such a question?

14 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour, it's what the case is about. I'm

15 simply trying to elicit evidence and that's what the case is about. If

16 the Chamber finds these questions unhelpful, I will stop asking them.

17 [Trial Chamber confers]

18 JUDGE ORIE: In dubio pro-Defence, my position is not finding full

19 support. So please proceed.

20 MR. JOSSE:

21 Q. So I'll ask you both -- two different questions, Mr. Radojko.

22 Firstly, did the SDS leadership locally encourage, inspire the individuals

23 who destroyed the mosques to do so?

24 A. Absolutely not. The SDS leadership was mostly made up of people

25 who were moderate in -- some of them had business ties, others had family

1 ties with the Muslims. The very fact that I was saying that when the

2 Muslim leaders were at risk, they surreptitiously took them over to Bihac

3 proves that this was the case. They communicated with them throughout.

4 Who pulled the mosques down was never established; this remained a true

5 mystery.

6 I know that out of curiosity some persons tried to find out who

7 the responsible ones were, through their acquaintances, but they failed in

8 the attempt. One could find explosives everywhere at the time and whoever

9 who wanted to blow up anything could get hold of a fuse and explosive at

10 any time.

11 I have to stress in this particular period of time the SDS made

12 the decision that it would not engage in party activities; otherwise, the

13 decisions were not made within the SDS. I often attended their meetings,

14 too, because I was co-opted as a member of the municipal - what was it

15 called? - of this basic organisation of sorts. I wasn't elected to the

16 post; rather, they just simply co-opted me to be there just in case. It

17 was called the Municipal Board, I believe.

18 MR. JOSSE: In the light of that answer, Your Honour, I don't

19 intend to ask the second question.

20 JUDGE ORIE: No. As a matter of fact, the witness answered your

21 second question and -- where you put the first one to him. Yes, please

22 proceed.

23 MR. JOSSE:

24 Q. You were asked also today about propaganda and you said that there

25 was propaganda on all sides. That's correct, isn't it?

1 A. Definitely. I myself was mobilised quite often, apparently

2 because of the army morale. Apparently they wanted to see me in the

3 trenches -- well, that's what happened. We had small radio transmitters,

4 and since we were close to Bihac and Sasin radio stations, I do remember

5 that they had this killer propaganda as well, and it has nothing to do

6 with any thinking, any sound thinking of anyone who is in the right mind,

7 but sometimes even us who were being targeted felt that it was laughable.

8 But those people working in radio stations, they were like that. And then

9 passions were running high, and when the whole atmosphere is like that,

10 there's no quality to such programmes.

11 Q. I next --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, the last question -- you asked the witness

13 whether he said that there was propaganda on all sides. That's what the

14 Chamber heard the witness say. So to that extent, the question was

15 totally superfluous.

16 MR. JOSSE: He answered my follow-up, which was: Could he give a

17 specific example of Muslim propaganda. He read my mind, in short.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, he read your mind. I apologise for -- please

19 proceed.

20 MR. JOSSE: I contemplated asking him a bit more detail about

21 that, but I'm not because of time considerations.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

23 MR. JOSSE:

24 Q. The next issue I would like to turn to, please, is a matter that

25 has been dealt with briefly. You were asked about a portion of your

1 interview with the Office of the Prosecutor where you dealt with the

2 matter of the Variants A and B document. I think it's at page 27 in the

3 English.

4 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I'm in the Court's hands on this. I

5 basically want to put to the witness pages 28, 29, and a little to the top

6 of page 30. Mr. Tieger - and I certainly don't criticise him for this -

7 asked the witness a little bit about what he said in the course of that

8 interview so far as Variants A and B are concerned. Really, I want the

9 rest of it in because, in my submission --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tieger, would there be any problem if we just

11 accept those pages then of the interview? Would that help us out?

12 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I would have like to have been afforded

13 a similar accommodation during my examination, but of course, no, I don't

14 have a problem with that.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

16 Well, I do understand what Mr. Tieger means, but, Mr. Josse, you

17 have the consent of Mr. Tieger to present these pages of the interview,

18 and that would then need a number, I take it, or would you like to further

19 put questions to the witness?

20 MR. JOSSE: No, I'm content to deal with it that way. Could I

21 say --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar -- yes --

23 MR. JOSSE: The last line on page 27, all of 28, all of 29, and

24 six lines down -- four lines down on page 30.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll provisionally assign a number to that and

1 you'll prepare the copies we need.

2 Mr. Registrar.

3 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D145, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

5 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.

6 MR. JOSSE:

7 Q. The next matter I would like to take you to, Mr. Radojko, is your

8 diary, please. Could you turn to tab 4 in the bundle. I've the English

9 -- the numbers in the English. What I'd invite you to do is look for the

10 date. It's the 7th of June. We're going to go through this in

11 chronological order.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Have you found it, Mr. Radojko? It seems to be on --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've found this. Tab 4?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, tab 4, and then the 7th of June.

15 It's about a meeting in Palanka, Mr. Josse?

16 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

17 Q. In your version, Mr. Radojko, it's page 137. Have you got that?

18 A. I think I'm about to find it. The 7th of June, 1992, the meeting

19 at Palanka.

20 Q. Yes. That's page 137. I want to ask you about where it says:

21 "To Skondric from Basara: Stop prosecution, there are no grounds, Basara

22 examined ..."

23 What's that about, please?

24 A. The RSK funds made available to the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

25 As far as I can remember, this Basara is supposed to be one of the higher

1 officers. As to what funds, I don't know. Quite some time has gone by.

2 As to whether they had any military supplies or funds that somebody

3 needed, or maybe equipment, I have no idea. After such a long time, I

4 probably just forwarded the information, that was all. Or else he asked

5 me to tell someone else. I suppose it was about some kind of equipment or

6 weapons which had been in the Croatian Krajina, since they had large

7 warehouses of equipment for others.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, there might be some confusion. Page 137

9 deals with the 8th of June, and whether it's still -- deals with the

10 meeting in Palanka is not certain to me. But in the English version you

11 find at the bottom of page 76 -- you find 8th of June, 1992, and then it

12 continues where you quoted.

13 MR. JOSSE: My fault. I'm sorry.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.

15 MR. JOSSE:

16 Q. Could we turn to page 84 in the English, page 149 in the original.

17 JUDGE ORIE: But that's -- yes. It -- your previous question was

18 about two lines, beginning with: "Stop prosecution." It has not become

19 clear from the answer of the witness what "stop prosecution" exactly means

20 in this context. "There are no grounds."

21 MR. JOSSE: If Your Honour wants to go back, I'm happy to ask the

22 witness.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

24 Mr. Radojko, the previous line you were asked about, I'll read it

25 again to you, that's: "To Skondric from Basara: Stop prosecution, there

1 are no grounds, Basara examined ..."

2 What does that mean? Who would stop or would have to stop or had

3 stopped prosecution?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the basis of this content, I

5 suppose that it is about Skondric having to stop the criminal proceedings

6 because they were unfounded. It says that Basara had looked into this

7 case. I suppose it must be about some kind of equipment or supplies,

8 because Skondric was the highest ranking officer and that was the main

9 base for all the Serb armed forces under his command. So he was first

10 stationed in the vicinity of Petrovac, and then in the course of the war

11 most of that base had been moved to Banja Luka. But large warehouses and

12 a lot of equipment stayed behind, and at this time Skondric was still on

13 the territory of the Petrovac municipality and I suppose it is about some

14 kind of theft or alienation. And at the time the entire 5th Army, which

15 covered Croatia and Slovenia, were withdrawing, so there were huge

16 supplies there.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And who was Basara?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember what exactly his

19 role was, but at any rate he must have been a higher-ranking officer,

20 because the way he communicated indicates that. He could have been a

21 lieutenant or a lieutenant-colonel, because Skondric, who was the main guy

22 there, was a colonel. The highest rank was that of a colonel.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Why is it in your diary?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I was supposed to forward

25 that message. I suppose I appeared appropriate -- he must have asked me

1 whether I knew who Skondric was, et cetera. Because that meeting was not

2 very formal, you know. People were sitting at tables and you talked to

3 the guy sitting next to you, and the leadership was sitting at another

4 table and they perhaps were debating something else.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Was that the meeting in Palanka or was it any other

6 meeting?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this meeting at

8 Palanka -- was at Palanka because it says: "Basara, RSK supplies to be

9 made available to ARK," and I suppose that he was the officer in charge of

10 logistics and supplies.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Was this meeting taken two days or was it just on the

12 7th of June? Because the entry comes under the 8th of June.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. On the 7th of June

14 probably he told me what to say and I made a note of that so that next day

15 when I arrived at Petrovac I wouldn't forget to tell Skondric. And since

16 I've marked it twice, it means that I did relay the message. This was my

17 own note to jog my mind and memory.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

19 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.

20 MR. JOSSE:

21 Q. In the B/C/S version, please, page 149, 13th of June. 84 in the

22 English version. Have you got that, Mr. Radojko?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. We see a decision from the 33rd decision -- Session, I beg your

25 pardon, the 33rd Session of the Crisis Staff on the 13th of June, 1992.

1 The decision says: "Finish the disarming and take repressive measures

2 against persons who took part in illegal supply of arms to paramilitary

3 units."

4 What is that a reference to, please?

5 A. This decision refers to those groups that we had referred to.

6 This is a kind of euphemism. That's the way I used to take notes, but I

7 do remember the debate. We could not use any bad language because of the

8 support and the animosity on the part of the general public in relation to

9 our efforts at reining those people in, because the general public still

10 tended to view some of them as heroes and they didn't see the need to

11 bring them under control. That's why we're talking about illegal arming,

12 et cetera, although formally speaking they were given those weapons in a

13 legal manner and then they deserted the units and kept the weapons.

14 That's why we talk about paramilitary formations, because at that stage

15 there were no formations of that sort in our municipality except those

16 passing by. But as to locals, there were some armed groups but there were

17 not paramilitary formations, there was simply criminal gangs.

18 Q. What was the ethnicity of those arming these so-called

19 paramilitary units?

20 A. Those people went and picked up arms of their own accord. The

21 national make-up of the units, especially in terms of the officers in

22 charge of weapons, well, that make-up was still varied. And after that

23 date, the main commander of the Muslim army in the region, General

24 Dudakovic, was still subjected to -- subordinated to Ratko Mladic in Knin.

25 This was the state of affairs, so they could get their weapons from Croats

1 and Muslims; however, they did it in a misleading way. They appeared as

2 the JNA volunteers, and once they were given the weapons and the uniforms,

3 they would take leave at the first possible opportunity, because that was

4 legal as well, and then they would not return on time or they would not

5 return at all. Or after a while they would join another unit and take

6 weapons there. There was a fairly frequent phenomenon.

7 JUDGE ORIE: The question was what the ethnicity was, isn't it? I

8 would expect to have heard "Muslim" or "Croat" or --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they were Serbs. Those people

10 were Serbs.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please carefully listen to the question and

12 if it's about ethnicity, then just say what the ethnicity was.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Josse.

14 MR. JOSSE:

15 Q. And what repressive measures against these Serbian persons who

16 were supplying these illegal arms did the Crisis Staff have in mind?

17 A. Well, the Crisis Staff is basically inviting those who were in

18 charge to engage in repressing this, because those decisions, as a rule,

19 would be submitted to the command stationed in the area and they were

20 submitted to the police as well, and the prosecutor's office as well.

21 Q. Can you be more specific as to what the repressive measures might

22 be or were going to be?

23 A. Well, repressive measures should have been very strict and

24 stringent, according to the rules. Basically, it would boil down to

25 disciplinary action in military units, and those who were repeat offenders

1 would certainly have been sent to some battle-field.

2 On one occasion the police arrested a group - I've mentioned this

3 already so I won't repeat it - but in the end, since their fellow fighters

4 released them, nothing happened. There was an attempt at arresting them

5 and taking them into custody, and there was an attempt to stop that.

6 Q. Thank you. On page 152, same day I think, 13th of June, you were

7 asked about the disconnection of telephones of all Muslims, removing them

8 from all key positions, particularly in the communications systems. Why

9 did the Crisis Staff want to disconnect the telephones of all Muslims?

10 A. For two reasons: First of all, in order to stop the flow of

11 propaganda. It was no secret that the two communities were at war against

12 one another, and so there was a wish to put a stop to that propaganda.

13 And on the other hand, since the technical capacity had gone down, there

14 were not enough lines to reach the outside world, as it were. And so the

15 first reason existed as well and they took the opportunity, since there

16 were technical problems as well, and made it into an excuse. That was my

17 understanding.

18 Q. Page 87, please --

19 A. It even says here --

20 Q. Go on, Mr. Radojko.

21 A. It says here -- there is a note, and this refers to 800 phone

22 numbers, "due to the reduction of capacity." And if we have 800 numbers,

23 some Serb households must have been disconnected as well.

24 Q. I'd like you now to turn to page 87, which is the Crisis Staff

25 session of the 14th of June, 1992 -- I beg your pardon, in your version

1 it's page 154, I'm sorry, Mr. Radojko. In our version it's 87. We see

2 that there is mention here of "loyal Muslims should be included in defence

3 preparations, fortification," et cetera. What did the Crisis Staff have

4 in mind so far as that was concerned?

5 A. Since there was a great deal of pressure that I had already

6 mentioned being brought to bear by the military command and their

7 representative to the effect that Muslims were supposedly in a privileged

8 position because they didn't have to do the work duty and didn't get sent

9 to the battle-field and Serbs had to do all that, so the staff looked into

10 the possibility of getting the Muslim population involved in non-combat

11 activity. The command constantly kept saying that they were moving

12 through a dangerous area and that they should perhaps clear the roads, cut

13 the bushes or something. And when a group of people went to do that, they

14 were treated pretty brutally and they never went again, and I know what it

15 amounted to basically. So that was an attempt to get this population

16 involved in everyday life and in order to prevent any pressure. So the

17 Crisis Staff tried to compensate for that, but it was precisely the ones

18 who were the most vociferous when making the requests when this was

19 actually implemented. They engaged in obstructionism, they insulted these

20 people, and in the end these people turned back, and it didn't make any

21 sense at all to even attempt to organise anything like that again.

22 Q. On page 155 we see that it says: "Chief reports that some

23 Muslim-owned business features were damaged last night by explosive

24 devices. Intensive search for the perpetrators is underway."

25 What did the intensive search consist of?

1 A. Here, I've just found it, 156. Look, the police took several

2 people in for questioning and into custody. As to what exactly they did,

3 I don't know, but I do know that the actual police reports in the end were

4 negative, that is to say they didn't manage -- or maybe afterwards they

5 did. Afterwards I heard rumours about them having had suspicions about

6 certain people that they had taken in for questioning and into custody.

7 But in the midst of all that chaos they didn't have enough proof in order

8 to keep them and they didn't want to keep them in detention if they didn't

9 have sufficient proof. They had some suspicion as to who might attack

10 this married couple or this four-member family that was killed completely,

11 and I do remember they were questioning people. But I don't know what

12 exactly they did apart from that. I don't know how far they managed to

13 get. Perhaps the police chief discussed this with the presidents and the

14 member of the National Assembly.

15 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, the Chamber needs to make a decision.

16 I've five more entries from this diary that I wish to put to the witness.

17 In addition to that, I have a number of other questions. If the Chamber

18 were to say I've only got five minutes, then there's one I need to put on

19 instructions in particular.

20 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you need?

21 MR. JOSSE: Well, I'm going to need -- to put all the questions

22 that I would like to put, at least another half an hour.

23 JUDGE ORIE: There's no way -- first of all, we are already, since

24 we had an earlier break, we have to change tapes anyhow, so it's --

25 because we'd -- I think we're now at approximately 1.35, one hour, 35

1 minutes after the break, and that's -- ten minutes perhaps would do, but

2 certainly not 20 or 30.

3 MR. JOSSE: I didn't have in mind sitting on tonight. It's --

4 tomorrow or not at all is really the decision that the Chamber needs to

5 make, with respect.

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ORIE: You'll be allowed to continue tomorrow and finish

8 tomorrow, Mr. Josse.

9 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

10 JUDGE ORIE: So -- yes, everyone is packing away.

11 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, perhaps if Your Honour asked the witness

12 to leave court we could use the last minute to discuss Monday.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

14 Mr. Radojko, unfortunately we're not able to finish today. That

15 means that we would like to see you back tomorrow afternoon, same

16 courtroom, and I again would like to instruct you not to speak with anyone

17 about the testimony you have given or are still about to give. Could you

18 please follow Madam Usher.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

20 [The witness stands down]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, Monday.

22 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Your Honour's legal officer very helpfully

23 relayed the unfortunate news that the Chamber cannot change the sitting.

24 Realistically, it seems to me that the next witness is almost certainly

25 going to go into Monday and, frankly, may take the whole of the morning.

1 What I am requesting is that the Defence do not call the witness after

2 that, Mr. Maricic, until Tuesday. That would allow the Defence to take

3 Mr. Maricic to see Mr. Krajisnik at the Detention Unit on Monday

4 afternoon.

5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would like to consider your request,

7 Mr. Josse, and inform you as soon as a decision has been taken. This is

8 not a very good setting to --

9 MR. JOSSE: No, I can understand that, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.

11 MR. JOSSE: If the Chamber has specific concerns, they can be

12 relayed to me. I would be only too pleased to address the matters more

13 fully if I need to.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand but certainly not -- we'll not

15 consider the matter this evening. Tomorrow.

16 MR. JOSSE: No, I -- frankly, there's no rush, in truth, for

17 obvious reasons.

18 JUDGE ORIE: If we'd like to know more about it, then we'll ask

19 you -- ask through our staff to give additional information, as always, a

20 copy to be sent to the Prosecution.

21 Mr. Tieger, I take it that you can agree to that procedure, if we

22 would like to have, because it's a practical matter rather than --

23 MR. JOSSE: I suppose, Your Honour, what I'm saying is if the

24 Chamber is likely to be against the Defence on this application, then I'd

25 like a second bite at the cherry because I would like to develop the

1 argument a little bit more fully, really on behalf of my client, frankly.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course I do understand that.

3 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]

4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider the matter, and if we are about to say

5 no, then we'll first seek -- give you an opportunity to add to this

6 practical matter on, I would say, a very practical level, by e-mail.

7 MR. JOSSE: I can't ask for more than that. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, same

9 courtroom.

10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

11 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 16th day of

12 March, 2006, at 2.15 p.m.

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