Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21836

1 Thursday, 23 March 2006

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.29 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-00-39-T, the Prosecutor versus Momcilo Krajisnik. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. The late start today is

9 due to a lot of things coming in just one or two minutes before we would

10 have started.

11 Mr. Josse, I think you had an opportunity to look at the original

12 of some of the documents that were presented yesterday. When could we --

13 are you satisfied -- from what I saw, what seemed to be very badly legible

14 was as a matter of fact the writing on the back side of the -- the other

15 side of the document. Any comments on that matter?

16 MR. JOSSE: No. I'm delighted that the originals have been

17 brought into the courtroom, and --

18 JUDGE ORIE: You know that the originals will not stay in this

19 courtroom for practical reasons, because they belong in another courtroom

20 at this moment, but good copies, yes, the originals --

21 MR. JOSSE: There are -- coincidentally, there are --

22 JUDGE ORIE: One second. One second. Could we go into private

23 session for a moment.

24 [Private session]

25 (redacted)

Page 21837











11 Page 21837 redacted. Private session.















Page 21838

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The issue I just raised is a translation issue

12 about yesterday which should not have dealt with in private session. That

13 is --

14 MR. JOSSE: I've received this translation dated the 23rd of

15 March.


17 MR. JOSSE: As has my learned friend and we're grateful.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Josse, I take it you also received a

19 copy of a memo which was addressed by the Registry to this Chamber

20 regarding the problems in calling -- in getting Mr. Bjelica in this

21 courtroom.

22 MR. JOSSE: I have not seen that, no.

23 JUDGE ORIE: It's an urgent matter and I would like you to -- from

24 what I remember, a copy was sent to the -- to the Defence and --

25 MR. JOSSE: It may be in our locker, Your Honour, which isn't

Page 21839

1 checked as -- that regularly.


3 MR. JOSSE: Mr. Stewart and I attended quite a lengthy meeting

4 with the Registry. I suspect I know what most if not all of what it

5 contains and I would obviously would like to see it and if it's a matter

6 that Your Honour needs --

7 JUDGE ORIE: If it's not in your locker we will take care that

8 there will be a copy available to you so that you could pay urgent

9 attention to it.

10 MR. JOSSE: Would Your Honour give me a moment.

11 [Defence confer]

12 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Apart from that -- yes. Apart from that there

14 are a few more matters, but -- yes, Mr. Harmon.

15 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, yesterday after I asked the witness

16 about the issue of his sentence, he --


18 MR. HARMON: Unilaterally raised the issue of his sentence having

19 been commuted to a fine of 4.500 Deutschmarks.


21 MR. HARMON: I made an urgent inquiry at the Court's behest and my

22 own behest because the documents I had been provided did not reflect such

23 a commutation but I can inform the Court that we received -- I received

24 just before I walked into court a copy of the commutation and there is a

25 decision commuting the sentence from a three-month sentence to a fine of

Page 21840

1 4.500 Deutschmarks. I have both the original and a translation which I

2 will file with the Court as an exhibit.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Josse, you have already received a copy.

4 MR. JOSSE: I haven't. My learned friend was good enough to tell

5 me about it and allowed me to scan the document and --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps it's good to tell the witness that you

7 received a copy of this and if you do that --

8 MR. HARMON: I will.

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- so he's -- that he -- there's no reason to be

10 nervous about us not knowing it.

11 MR. HARMON: I intended to do so, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Since there seem to be no any urgent procedural

13 matters at this moment, I'd like to ask Madam Usher to call the witness

14 back to court.

15 Yes. Perhaps I had one thing, a number, P1124, was attributed to

16 a document and later withdrawn. So this number will now be given to the

17 next exhibit the Prosecution would like to tender.

18 [The witness entered court]


20 [Witness answered through interpreter]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Maricic. Please be seated. I

22 would like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration

23 you've given at the beginning of your testimony.

24 Mr. Harmon, you're not yet at 60 per cent, but close to it. So

25 I'd say, if you'd try to, half an hour.

Page 21841

1 MR. HARMON: Fine. Thank you. That's I'll need, Your Honour.

2 Cross-examination by Mr. Harmon: [Continued]

3 Q. Mr. Maricic, let me inform you before we begin the continued

4 examination, you told me yesterday that your sentence, your gaol sentence

5 had been commuted to a fine of 4.500 Deutschmarks. Following that

6 revelation from you, I made an inquiry and have received a copy of a

7 decision from the basic court in Brcko dated the 3rd of June, 2004, which

8 decision does indeed reflect that your sentence was commuted. I have it,

9 both an English translation and a B/C/S original of this. I will file a

10 copy of this with the Court so you can be assured that the record is

11 perfectly clear on the disposition of your case.

12 Mr. Maricic --

13 MR. HARMON: Could we pass out the next exhibit, please, and this

14 is not an exhibit that's found in the binders but will need a new number.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would that then be P1124?

16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.



19 Q. Mr. Maricic, I want to return to a subject very, very briefly but

20 a subject about which you testified yesterday.

21 MR. HARMON: That testimony, Your Honours, is found at page 43.

22 Q. And I asked you a question, Mr. Maricic, about the association of

23 participants in the war in 1990, and your evidence was that there was no

24 organisation by that name. Mr. Maricic, the Prosecution Exhibit 1124 is

25 from the website of that organisation, and it says in the text as follows,

Page 21842

1 and you were the president of that organisation so perhaps this will

2 refresh your recollection: "The combatants' organisation of Republika

3 Srpska was founded on 27th of June, 1993, under the name Republican

4 Association of Participants in the War since 1990 of Republika Srpska, and

5 as such it was registered with the Banja Luka Lower Court under number

6 2/93 of 9th August 1993. On 7th July 1997 pursuant to a decision by the

7 Assembly, number 317/97 it changed its name to Combatants' Organisation of

8 Republika Srpska and was registered under such name with the Banja Luka

9 Lower Court, under number 31/97 of 18th July 1997."

10 So I return to my question, Mr. Maricic. Why was the association

11 named the Republican Association of Participants in the War since 1990?

12 A. Well, the name is correct, but it's not true that it was

13 established in 1990. Why somebody called it "since 1990," I don't know.

14 I didn't take any part in the baptism of this organisation.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Were you aware of it? First of all, when you said it

16 was not founded in 1990, that's clear. That's what Mr. Harmon just read

17 to you. But were you aware that it originally had this name?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I was.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then if you would have told us

20 yesterday, "Mr. Harmon, that was the name the organisation originally had

21 but we have changed it since then," that would have saved a lot of time

22 and would have made matters immediately perfectly clear. So please try to

23 assist this court, and that means you're called by the Defence and assist

24 this Court in understanding as good as possible anything related to

25 questions put to you.

Page 21843

1 Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.


3 Q. So, Mr. Maricic, you have testified about when the war started in

4 the municipality of Brcko. I come back to the question I asked you

5 earlier. Why was this organisation named the republican association of

6 participants in the war since 1990? What happened in 1990 that gave this

7 group a desire to form an association related to the war?

8 A. In my previous evidence, I also told the truth, that it was set up

9 in 1990 something, as it says here. And where the name comes from, I

10 don't know. I didn't take any part in that.

11 Q. You were the president of an organisation that bore the name of an

12 association of participants in the war since 1990. Did you inquire why

13 this was an association when the war had not started in 1990?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Was this association in part for people who had prepared for war

16 in 1990?

17 A. I have no explanation for that. I wouldn't even say that that's

18 true.

19 MR. HARMON: Well, I can't go further on that subject,

20 Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ORIE: One question. Since when are you -- are you in

22 that -- active in that organisation? Since when are you president?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I became simultaneously president

24 and active on the date of establishment in 1993, although I didn't stay

25 president for very long.

Page 21844

1 JUDGE ORIE: In 1997 you were not president any more. Is that --

2 or were you?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. I was president for maybe

4 only a year.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And being president, on from the beginning, you

6 never asked yourself why does this name refer to 1990?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I don't know. There must have

8 been some reasons, but I never gave it any thought.

9 JUDGE ORIE: As far as you were concerned it could have been '82

10 or '77 or '89? The name of an organisation is not an expression of what

11 it is about?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wouldn't put it that way exactly,

13 because in 1991, there were already multi-party elections and the

14 democratic system was introduced. That's why it was 1990. If it had been

15 earlier, I certainly would not have taken any part in that organisation.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harmon.


18 Q. Mr. Maricic, we're going to turn to the topic that we ended your

19 examination on yesterday, and that is the subject of paramilitaries. If I

20 could have the document that is found in tab 7, the original document.

21 Yesterday, as you recall, Mr. Maricic, there was an issue where the copy

22 of the document in your language was illegible. I have obtained a copy of

23 the original document which I'd like you to expect.

24 MR. HARMON: And, Your Honours -- no. It's not in respect of this

25 exhibit. It's in respect of the next exhibit.

Page 21845

1 Q. Would you inspect that document, please, Mr. Maricic? This

2 document, Mr. Maricic, is issued by the War Presidency, is it not?

3 A. Probably.

4 Q. Do you see at the lower right-hand side of this document type --

5 typewritten words, and can you read those words?

6 A. You probably mean the handwritten part.

7 Q. No, I mean the typewritten part in the lower right-hand side.

8 A. Yes. "War Presidency of the Brcko municipality."

9 Q. Okay. Now, this document, if you'd turn over the original, if you

10 could turn over the original, there appear to be two names on the back of

11 that document. One is Djordje Ristanic. We know who he is through your

12 testimony. Pero Markovic. Who is Pero Markovic?

13 A. Pero Markovic was a Serb from Brcko who, when the multi-ethnic

14 government was established, was president of the municipal government

15 representing the Serb people in Brcko at the time when Mustafa Ramic was

16 president in 1990.

17 Q. What role or position did he hold in Brcko on the 7th of May,

18 1992?

19 A. You mean Pero Markovic?

20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

21 A. He did not have a very important role. I don't remember. He

22 later became a director of a bank.

23 Q. So this document was issued by the War Presidency, then,

24 Mr. Maricic, to a volunteer by the name of Branislav Filipovic, one of the

25 paramilitary volunteers who came to the Brcko municipality. That's

Page 21846

1 correct, isn't it?

2 A. I think that's correct.

3 Q. Now, let me turn to another document, show you another document.

4 This is a document, Mr. Maricic, that was issued a week later. This is

5 found at tab 13 of the binder in front of you.

6 MR. HARMON: Let me inform the Court --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, may I take it -- first of all,

8 Mr. Registrar, a number had been assigned to the previous document.

9 THE REGISTRAR: P1127, Your Honours.

10 JUDGE ORIE: This one?

11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we now use only this colour copy version of

13 this document. Please proceed.


15 Q. Mr. Maricic -- the next document is found, Your Honours, at tab

16 number 13.

17 MR. HARMON: And, Your Honours, I have substituted a redacted copy

18 which I hope Your Honours have received, redacted copy of the B/C/S

19 language.

20 Q. Sir, this is a document also based on a decision of the War

21 Presidency. It's dated the 14th of May, 1992. It also is a pass, and

22 it's issued to someone whose name you cannot see. And under the

23 typewritten portion "War Presidency of the Brcko municipality," it is

24 signed by Adolf.

25 My first question for you, Mr. Maricic, do you know anybody who

Page 21847

1 went by the name of Adolf who operated within the Brcko municipality in

2 1992?

3 A. In Brcko municipality in 1992 when I was there, the only Adolf was

4 Goran Jelisic.

5 Q. And Goran Jelisic was the commander of the Luka prison camp in

6 1992 for a period of time, wasn't he?

7 A. I think -- in fact, I got that information only after the war. I

8 don't think he was warden. He was convicted here. He was a man who did

9 whatever he pleased, and he did whatever he wanted with weapons, but I

10 don't think he was officially warden of the Luka camp.

11 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, in conjunction with this document I'd

12 just like to refer Your Honours to some 92 bis evidence that was from

13 Witness K214 that was submitted, and it also relates to an identical form

14 of the document that I have presented now to this witness. Just for your

15 reference; for Defence reference as well.

16 Q. So, Witness, I want to refer your attention to the bottom portion

17 of this document where it says, "100 per cent clean and vouched for." And

18 again, signed by Adolf. What does that refer to, if you know?

19 A. In 1992, I did not hear this nickname or term, "Adolf." Only

20 later did I hear that Goran Jelisic had this nickname. But from all my

21 information, he was the only Adolf.

22 As for clean, I have no idea what it is about. Goran at the time

23 was in such a position that whomever he vouched for to be clean was

24 considered clean.

25 Q. And when you say whoever he vouched for is clean -- was considered

Page 21848

1 clean, what do you mean by that?

2 A. The implication is that this was his order.

3 Q. All right. Let's turn to another topic.

4 MR. HARMON I'm sorry, this needs a number. I'm sorry?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 13, Your Honours, will be P1129.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

7 MR. HARMON: Thank you.

8 Q. I'd like to turn to the document that is now found in tab 10,

9 Mr. Maricic.

10 MR. JOSSE: One observation about tab 13. I appreciate there may

11 be difficulties with this request. I'd like provenance of that in due

12 course, please.

13 MR. HARMON: That request is never a problem. We will be glad to

14 provide the provenance of that document to the Defence.

15 Q. Now, this document I'd like to show you because -- Mr. Maricic,

16 I'm sorry. Don't bother yourself with looking at that particular copy.

17 That's illegible. I'd like to show you a more legible copy -- that the

18 registrar could show you a more legible copy of this document.

19 This document, Mr. Maricic, is a receipt handwritten at the

20 right-hand corner is "13 May 1992." It's a receipt for the following

21 temporary property -- I'm sorry, I'll read that again. "For the following

22 military property received for temporary use by BP5055-19 Belgrade," and

23 then it sayings in parentheses "(TO Brcko)." And then you'll see it is

24 based on an order and it identifies a large amount of ordnance that was

25 received by Branislav Filipovic.

Page 21849

1 So this is a document, Mr. Maricic, again showing that there was a

2 Brcko Territorial Defence on the 13th of May, 1992, and that

3 Mr. Filipovic, who was a volunteer and has been identified as a volunteer,

4 was cooperating with that organisation. May I have your comments on this

5 particular document, Mr. Maricic?

6 A. First of all, the approval for Mr. Filipovic to go to Belgrade,

7 I'm not trying to defend anyone in this respect, but the president of the

8 War Presidency had to sign. He had the seal, and he had to sign things

9 submitted to him by others.

10 Secondly, I told you that the Territorial Defence was established

11 as the war started, but it didn't really amount to anything. Other people

12 were involved that were organised under the umbrella of this TO. And I --

13 there was no TO commander even for those companies that existed. Other

14 people had command.

15 Q. It is correct, isn't it, Mr. Maricic, that the paramilitary units

16 and members of those units cooperated both with the War Presidency and the

17 Serbian TO in Brcko in May of 1992 and thereafter?

18 A. They did not cooperate. They only issued orders. And this

19 Djordje Ristanic, president of the War Presidency, was actually beaten up

20 by them.

21 Q. Let me continue then, Mr. Maricic, because the paramilitary units

22 that came to Brcko, you've identified those paramilitary units. You've

23 identified people as -- in the Arkan paramilitary force, Mauzer. You've

24 identified Mr. Blagojevic, who you knew, and you've identified other

25 members of paramilitaries that came in the beginning of the war in Brcko.

Page 21850

1 Now, it's a fact, isn't it, Mr. Maricic, that Arkan was a

2 well-known criminal before the start of the war?

3 A. I learned about that later.

4 Q. And when did you --

5 A. Before the war I had never even hard of Arkan.

6 Q. When did you learn about that?

7 A. The news started making the rounds as the war started in Brcko

8 that there is such a man as Arkan and there is a group called Arkan's men.

9 I cannot give you a precise time frame.

10 Q. When did you learn that he was a criminal and that his men were

11 engaged in criminal activity?

12 A. Much later after the beginning of the war, much, much later,

13 although the stories were already circulating after the war began that

14 they are shipping goods out of Brcko.

15 Q. Okay. Let me -- let me just read something to you. This is found

16 at Prosecution Exhibit 1090. This is an interview with Mr. Seselj, and

17 I'll read a portion of that interview. Seselj and Mr. Poplasen were being

18 interviewed publicly, and Mr. Seselj made the following remarks, and he

19 said, "It is important to address the problem of crime. The worst problem

20 of all, the Serbs in all Serbian countries, the main criminal activities

21 have been going on during this war on the territory of the Republika

22 Srpska and have been -- and the --" I lost my place, I'm sorry. "The main

23 criminal activities of that have been going on in this war on the

24 territory of the Republika Srpska and the Republika Srpska Krajina are

25 linked to the regime in Serbia and the Serbian police. They are also

Page 21851

1 linked to the counter-intelligence service of the army of Yugoslavia in

2 which the communist members of the SK for Yugoslavia (and we have spoken

3 about that before) are the leaders. For example, Zeljko

4 Raznjatovic, "Arkan," a man of the Serbian UDBA who used to liquidate

5 immigrants and rob banks in Western countries. In this war the press

6 proclaimed him a Serbian hero, and he never had more than 2 to 3.000 men

7 under his command. He said that he had liberated Bijeljina. That is not

8 true, because they had only 29 men in Bijeljina. What did he do? He

9 robbed Bijeljina? What did he do in Brcko? He robbed the Brcko port. He

10 took away everything he could possibly take. The value of the goods he

11 took away could be measured by millions of German marks. He could not

12 have done it by himself. He shipped it with the permission of the Serbian

13 police, Radmilo Bogdanovic, Sokolovic, Radovan Stojicic Badza, et cetera.

14 That was sold on the black market and the money was shared."

15 I won't read further. Now, that's correct what Mr. Seselj said

16 about Arkan and what he did in Brcko, isn't it?

17 A. There is something illogical about that. Radovan Stojicic Badza,

18 was not a Serb leader. He was a high official of the police of Serbia.

19 Q. Putting aside the names, Mr. Maricic, it is true what Seselj said

20 about Arkan's looting of Brcko, isn't it?

21 A. I don't have any comments on that. It's not only Arkan. There

22 are many other people who shipped goods away.

23 I was wounded at one point and I was absent for a long time, and

24 it was all over by the time I came back, but a lot of that went on.

25 Q. Let me show you -- let's return to the document, Mr. Maricic,

Page 21852

1 that's found at tab 17. Mr. Maricic, this is a document we looked at

2 yesterday at length. I want to refer you to page 7 in the Cyrillic.

3 MR. HARMON: And I want to refer Your Honours to page 5 starting

4 at the third paragraph in the English.

5 Q. Mr. Maricic, let me direct your attention the last two paragraphs.

6 I'm going to read portions of that. You can follow along. This is the

7 document that was prepared by Mr. Ristanic.

8 "A special feature of the Brcko front is organised and individual

9 crime in the form of looting. This has assumed such proportions that

10 individuals have lost their lives and been wounded in their desire to

11 steal. All stolen materials, vehicles, hi-fi's and other goods and

12 valuables have passed through almost all checkpoints before ending up in

13 Bijeljina. The good part of the war booty has crossed the Drina River and

14 ended up in Serbia. The responsibility for this criminal offences must be

15 passed. It is incomprehensible that an unregistered car or a car without

16 licence plates can be driven around Bijeljina municipality."

17 Then I'll end with that portion of the second paragraph and go to

18 the next paragraph.

19 "The result of the looting is that Brcko is now a devastated town.

20 This has led to the fall of combat morale, significant demoralisation of

21 the Brcko population and the absurdity of the whole war."

22 And I want to go to the next paragraph, Mr. Maricic. "Certain

23 formations have established their warehouses of looted goods in Brcko as

24 well as Bijeljina, like, for example, the special unit in the duty-free

25 zone. This unit has even produced its own seal so it can issue

Page 21853

1 appropriate documentation. The command of this unit thinks it should have

2 its own till, its own current account, and as said earlier that it should

3 organise the public security station, the civilian political leadership,

4 the military police and the entire command structure. It is important to

5 mention that unit carry out an attack on the public security station (of

6 which senior organs have already been informed). All of these activities

7 have been accompanied by rapes, unauthorised interrogations, the issuing

8 of dubious permits to leave town, probably for a hefty fee, and there are

9 indications that the most drastic cases members of unknown formations have

10 executed people."

11 Now, Mr. Maricic, when you returned to Brcko after your

12 rehabilitation from your serious wounds, you were aware of this weren't

13 you? You were aware of the extensive nature of the looting that had taken

14 place in Brcko, weren't you?

15 A. I didn't know anything precisely, but in that war the same was

16 done by all sides, including looting. As for Brcko, I said before and I

17 can say it again, I don't know who had command. In that situation, there

18 were certain individuals and groups who took advantage of that chaos and

19 looted. But I didn't want to get involved in that, and when I came back I

20 wasn't really interested. It was one of the consequences of the war, and

21 it was only to be expected. Also a consequence of the prevailing chaos.

22 I also have information that the same thing went on, on the Muslim and

23 Croat sides. Whoever was stronger took advantage. And there were

24 paramilitary units on those sides as well, the Croat and Muslim side.

25 Q. Mr. Maricic, based on what I know from the positions you held in

Page 21854

1 the Brcko municipality before the war and after the war, you were a man of

2 considerable stature in the Brcko municipality. Are you saying that this

3 extensive looting that resulted in Brcko being a devastated town, the

4 rapes that are -- that Mr. Ristanic accounts for in this document, the

5 unauthorised interrogations, the murders, the executions, was of no

6 interest to you?

7 MR. JOSSE: There are two questions there, Your Honour. The first

8 was a statement.


10 MR. JOSSE: And --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we -- could we ask Mr. Harmon to split them up.

12 Is that what you'd like in order to avoid any confusion?

13 MR. JOSSE: I would, please.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Harmon.

15 MR. HARMON: Okay.

16 Q. Mr. Maricic, are you saying that the extensive looting that

17 resulted in the devastation of the town of Brcko, the executions that are

18 related in this, the rapes that are related in this report were of no

19 interest to you?

20 A. On the contrary. I was completely against it. I cannot tell you

21 all of it in half a minute, but I can tell you about one episode when I

22 almost lost my life because of all that. One column of fighters around

23 the front line was looting TV sets and other things, and I came out in

24 front of them. I told them, "This is not appropriate. This is not proper

25 conduct." And their commander confronted me, took out his gun, and I saw

Page 21855

1 that it was wiser to withdraw.

2 There's no question of me approving of that.

3 Q. What did you --

4 A. I absolutely condemned it.

5 Q. When you say you absolutely condemned it, what did you do to

6 report those crimes to your higher authorities in the Republika Srpska?

7 A. When the war broke out, I held no more positions, and it was not

8 within my power to do anything. I was an invalid occupying no position of

9 power whatsoever, and I was not placed to report it to anyone.

10 Q. Mr. Maricic, you have told us earlier that you were a close

11 associate of Dr. Beli. You held a responsible position in the SDS

12 position. You held that position when you came back from your -- from

13 your treatment in Belgrade. To whom did you report your concerns about

14 the crimes that had taken place in Brcko of which you were aware and of

15 which you apparently were almost a victim?

16 A. The entire leadership headed by Dr. Beli was, and this is

17 something I learnt later on, because you have to know that all the

18 improper conduct ended once I ended my treatment. However, in this time

19 of prevailing chaos, any soldier carrying weapons capable of fighting was

20 more important than Dr. Beli himself, and that is why they were unable to

21 do anything about it. You yourself stated that once they had even

22 occupied the ministry of the interior.

23 Q. My question --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harmon, I'm looking at the clock. I'm also

25 looking at the time I said you would have.

Page 21856

1 Mr. Maricic, you did not answer the last question. You told us a

2 lot of things. Should we understand that to be that because of the de

3 facto situation in which, as you said, any soldier carrying weapons

4 capable of fighting was more important than Dr. Beli himself that you did

5 not report any of the crimes you saw, the looting you saw? Is that how I

6 have to understand your answer? Because the question was to whom you

7 reported having seen this.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I wouldn't put it that way,

9 really, not any soldier but the soldier who was a bit deranged and who was

10 crime-prone, that type of man, yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand, but the core of the question was

12 whether you did report that, those looting -- that looting being

13 committed. You gave us a lot of circumstances. Do I have to understand

14 that under those circumstances you did not report?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not occupy any position, but

16 I'm certain that Dr. Beli himself reported on these matters to the

17 higher-up leadership asking that they take certain measures on -- I'm sure

18 he did it dozen -- dozens of times. And not only him but other members of

19 the leadership as well. But this was simply something that was beyond

20 them. You see, in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time, there were these

21 semi-norms that were in force.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand how you describe the present

23 situation -- the situation at that time. Again, you didn't answer the

24 question. The question was whether you did report, but I take it then

25 that you say, "I'm sure Dr. Beli himself reported." So he reported. Is

Page 21857

1 there any document of such reporting, to your knowledge?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether there is a

3 document, but I don't think that all of these reports were relayed

4 verbally. I'm sure there must be something in writing as well. But I

5 wasn't placed to do that, and I wouldn't know.

6 JUDGE ORIE: You don't know.

7 Mr. Harmon, could you please wrap up?


9 Q. I have one additional question, Witness. If you could turn to tab

10 18.

11 This is P5269, tab 463.

12 Witness, if you turn to the last page in the B/C/S version, the

13 second bullet point down.

14 MR. HARMON: And, Your Honours, if you turn to page 5, the

15 penultimate paragraph.

16 Q. You see page 6, Mr. Maricic, the second bullet point?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It appears a third of the way down the page. It says "Krajina

19 special police with 45 men led by Zivojin Ivanovic, aka Crnogorac, is

20 present in the area of Brcko. He has not placed himself under the command

21 of the Brcko Brigade. He was allegedly sent by the RSUP."

22 Do you know who this man -- did you know this man?

23 A. I haven't found it here.

24 Q. I can assist you. If the usher -- I would be glad point out where

25 it is to the usher?

Page 21858

1 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have the last page in front of you? Then it

2 is the third paragraph starting with "Na podrucja." I may pronounce it

3 wrongly, but ...

4 You found it, Mr. Maricic?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please read the paragraph, the three lines.


8 Q. What can you tell me about Mr. Ivanovic? Did you know him and --

9 A. No. I've never seen the man, and I don't know anything about him.

10 If he did come to Brcko, then this must have taken place before I returned

11 from my treatment, because had he been coming to Brcko after I ended my

12 treatment, I would have known. I only heard of his nickname, Crnogorac,

13 from people in general, but I never met him.

14 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I've concluded my examination.

15 Thank you very much, Mr. Maricic.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harmon.

17 Mr. Josse, any need to re-examine the witness? Perhaps before you

18 do so I'll just confront the witness with one issue.

19 Mr. Maricic, yesterday at the very end of this court session I

20 asked you a few questions about whether names I mentioned were SDS

21 members. Then when I came to the last name, that was Radoslav Bogicevic,

22 you answered, and I understood that answer. At least it was on my screen

23 at that moment that you said, "I think he joined later, and he was an SDS

24 member." I then asked you what he joined, what he did join later, and you

25 answered that he joined the SDS.

Page 21859

1 Since I had some difficulties in finding the logic of this answer

2 and since I did not exclude for the possibility that the translation that

3 reached me at that time was not, for the full hundred per cent, correct, I

4 asked the interpreters to listen again to your original words and to check

5 the translation. This resulted in your first answer being, "I think he

6 joined later, and he, too, was a member, although only on paper, not in

7 fact."

8 The further explanation you gave, translation was reviewed, and

9 finally the -- it now reads: "I mean, he joined the SDS a bit later,

10 because his brother was in the Socialist Party, and he became a senior

11 manager later. So he joined the SDS in order to facilitate this."

12 Mr. Maricic, I have some difficulties in logically understanding

13 the line where it says, "I think he joined later, and he, too, was a

14 member," to understand that as joining the SDS as a member. Now being --

15 having listened to what I just said, could you assist me in how I could

16 understand this line to be joining the SDS rather than anything else?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know myself how to clarify

18 this further. Many people became members of different parties for their

19 own personal interests. That was my opinion and still is, and I meant of

20 course personal material interests.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that, but I'd like to focus on

22 the first answer you gave where you said, "I think he joined later." When

23 I put those questions to you, I listed persons who were appointed members

24 of, I think it was called the War Presidency. Therefore, one might be

25 inclined to understand the words, "I think he joined later," to understand

Page 21860

1 that Mr. Bogicevic joined the War Presidency later.

2 What would you say to those who would be inclined to understand

3 your words in this way?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. He became manager of Interplet.

5 That's a furniture manufacturing company. And in order to become one,

6 he probably needed that sort of support I mentioned.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not saying that he was -- he did not later become

8 a member, but if you read the line, "I think he joined later and he, too,

9 was a member," then especially the word "too" make it not very logic --

10 logical to understand joining as joining the club of which he became a

11 member. That's my logical problem with your answer.

12 So I'm not putting in dispute the reason why he became an SDS

13 member. I'm focusing on what Mr. - what was his name - Bogicevic joined

14 according to you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I meant to say was that he

16 became a member of the SDS.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That doesn't resolve the matter.

18 Mr. Josse, any immediate for -- to re-examine the witness?

19 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, yes.

20 Re-examination by Mr. Josse:

21 Q. In your language, as these answers have been translated back to

22 you, is there any ambiguity at all in your mind as to what you said at

23 that time?

24 A. I don't understand the question. I don't know what you're

25 referring to.

Page 21861

1 Q. Well, I think, but I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, the learned

2 Judge is suggesting to you, that the answer you gave yesterday, this has

3 now been retranslated by the translation service, was in some way

4 ambiguous and your use of the word --

5 JUDGE ORIE: I was not saying this was ambiguous and that's not

6 what I was suggesting.

7 MR. JOSSE: Okay. I'll move on.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To be quite honest, I thought not that it was

9 ambiguous, but I was trying to find whether it could be explained in such

10 a way that any ambiguity I had not yet found in those words would arise.

11 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, being frank with the Court, I did not

12 follow what Your Honour was driving at, at all, with respect, and I simply

13 didn't understand the line of questioning at all.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Perhaps I'll be in a position to clarify

15 this so that the Defence at least has the -- has the advantage of knowing

16 what was, at least on my mind, not what I finally made up but what was on

17 my mind when I put the questions to the witness and -- yes.

18 MR. JOSSE: I think we'd be very grateful for that.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Not at this moment.

20 MR. JOSSE: Okay. I'm going to move on then. Could I have one

21 moment, please.

22 Q. I want to take you back, Mr. Maricic, to an assertion that

23 Mr. Harmon made in his cross-examination today, which he then didn't turn

24 into a question, and I would like you to deal with this, if you'd be so

25 kind.

Page 21862

1 Your Honour, this is page 18 at approximately line 22, 23.

2 What was asserted, Mr. Maricic, was this: That based on

3 information from the positions you held in the Brcko municipality before

4 and after the war, you were a man of considerable stature in that

5 municipality. What do you say about that assertion?

6 A. I don't recall what I stated, but if need be, I can reiterate that

7 I was not in Brcko because of my positions there. My positions were of

8 relative weight. I was known around Brcko because I went about the town

9 and because I was part of the forces that defended the Serbian people.

10 Q. Are you talking about before or after the war or both?

11 A. All three periods, before the war, during the war, and after the

12 war.

13 Q. Thank you. Could you have P1124 in front of you again, please.

14 That is the document dealing with this organisation, the combatants' -- I

15 beg your pardon, Republican Association of Participants in the War since

16 1990.

17 MR. JOSSE: I don't think the usher can find the document,

18 Your Honour. I need mine.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I take it you're referring to the website page.

20 MR. JOSSE: I am. Thank you.

21 Q. Does this organisation have anything to do with combatants who

22 were involved in the Croatian war?

23 A. I don't know about that. It is quite interesting that it says --

24 or, rather, that it's called "since -- in the war since 1990." I could

25 not confirm or disprove your statement.

Page 21863

1 Q. One other thing which may assist in this regard. Can you tell the

2 Chamber when your military pension is dated from? I assume for the

3 purpose of this question that you get a military pension.

4 A. No, I'm not receiving a military pension but a civilian one, and

5 it's a pittance, something that can't -- one can't live by, and I'm

6 receiving an allowance on account of my military service, but that one is

7 also a minimum one.

8 Q. And when is the start date of your service deemed to be?

9 A. Where?

10 Q. I'm going to move on. You said in your evidence, in answer to a

11 question that my learned friend asked you, that the JNA did cooperate with

12 paramilitary units that had arrived in Brcko. Are you able to say why the

13 JNA cooperated with those paramilitary units?

14 A. Whatever I stated was on the basis of what I heard from other

15 people, but I also said that the JNA had the total of 100 men in Brcko

16 prior to the war, and when the war broke out the numbers did not really

17 increase. That's why the JNA did not have a decisive command role in the

18 early days of the war in Brcko, rather, the command was held by those

19 others that you mentioned and, of course, the manpower present in the

20 barracks was compelled not only to cooperate with them but to execute

21 their orders.

22 Q. You were asked about the Chetniks of a man - and I hope I

23 pronounce this right - called Mihajlovic. Are those Chetniks,

24 Mr. Mihajlovic's Chetniks, connected to Seselj's Chetniks?

25 A. In the area of the former Yugoslavia there are several Chetnik

Page 21864

1 organisations. In my opinion, none of them has really anything to do with

2 the -- the Chetniks of Draza Mihajlovic.

3 In response to the Prosecutor's question, I said that I was a

4 member of their party for a short while. As soon as I realised that those

5 were not honourable men and their policies were not honourable, I quit.

6 Draza Mihajlovic and his men were honourable fighters. I suppose that

7 among those who now term themselves -- style themselves Chetniks, there

8 are honourable men as well, but the ones that I met were not among them.

9 MR. JOSSE: I have nothing else. Thank you, Your Honour.

10 Mr. Krajisnik is indicating to the Court.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Take your time to consult with him if there's

12 anything -- whether it's Mr. Krajisnik himself -- I think the procedure

13 is, Mr. Krajisnik, that you consult with counsel and then put questions to

14 the witness or instruct counsel to do so.

15 MR. JOSSE: Excuse me.


17 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, while those consultations are going on,

18 I just would like to inform the Court I do have copies now of the decision

19 that I mentioned at the beginning of the testimony, and I inform

20 Mr. Maricic as well. So these could be entered into the record at the

21 appropriate time.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, from my own experience I know that it's

23 very uncomfortable to have to consult in this way in the courtroom. If

24 you'd need -- if you'd ask for a little bit -- a longer break so that you

25 have a better opportunity to consult with Mr. Krajisnik, then I would

Page 21865

1 allow that, even to suggest that if you need it that you ask for it.

2 MR. JOSSE: I think Mr. Krajisnik and I would both appreciate

3 that. It's a conceptual difficulty rather than a -- rather than a

4 difference of opinion on our part. Let me -- I'm quite willing to ask the

5 witness if I understand exactly what Mr. Krajisnik has in mind.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I noticed that it took you more time, so

7 therefore I guessed that it might be a little bit more complex matter than

8 just, "Please put this question and that question to the witness."

9 Then if we would take 35 minutes for a break, would that do?

10 MR. JOSSE: That would do.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then at the same time I would invite you to have a

12 look at the last decision, conversion of couple of months of imprisonment

13 to 4.500 marks because Mr. Harmon just announced that he could distribute

14 them. So perhaps we could give him an opportunity to do so now and you

15 can read that.

16 Then I would like to know after the break whether you would oppose

17 admitting this as an exhibit not introduced through a witness or whether

18 you would like to put additional questions to the witness in relation to

19 this document.

20 MR. JOSSE: Absolutely, Your Honour. Could I mention one other

21 thing?


23 MR. JOSSE: I do now have the document in relation to the detained

24 witness in Bosnia.


Page 21866

1 MR. JOSSE: I'd like to read that as well because I imagine that's

2 an issue the Court will want to address this afternoon.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's mainly -- I'd ask you whether the

4 suggested course of -- course to take which might be videolink to consider

5 that and to hear from you whether that would be an acceptable way of at

6 least hearing the evidence of that witness.

7 MR. JOSSE: Thank you for forewarning me. I would like to speak

8 to Mr. Stewart about that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we take a bit more or -- yes, Mr. Harmon.

10 MR. HARMON: Should this have a number at this point?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think. Mr. Josse, I think it's -- to give it

12 provisionally rather than --

13 MR. JOSSE: The chances of my opposing this would be extremely

14 slim.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would be my guess as well. Mr. Registrar

16 that would be --

17 THE REGISTRAR: P1130, Your Honours.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, wouldn't it be best to have a break until

19 4.30 to --

20 MR. JOSSE: Thank you very much.

21 JUDGE ORIE: -- have a little bit more time?

22 Mr. Maricic, we will have a break. There may be some more

23 questions for you after the break. We're not sure about it, but we'd like

24 to see you back in 45 minutes.

25 We will adjourn until 4.30.

Page 21867

1 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

2 --- On resuming at 4.37 p.m.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, before we continue with the witness, there

4 are a few procedural matters pending already for quite some time which I'd

5 like to deal with.

6 The first issue I'd like to address is the -- if I could call it

7 interpretation incident in relation to Mr. Poplasen. This Trial Chamber

8 would like to address the parties regarding an incident which occurred on

9 the 10th of March. Witness Poplasen stated in the second session that he

10 had heard an offensive comment during his testimony exclusively

11 broadcasted on the B/C/S channel. The Chamber informed the witness that

12 it would inquire into the matter.

13 The Chamber has concluded, based on the inquiry and explanation

14 made by the Conference And Language Services Section, that an offensive

15 remark was made by one of the CLSS conference interpreters in the booth in

16 reaction to a statement made by the witness in a video clip presented as

17 evidence. The interpreter's remark was inadvertently broadcast on the

18 B/C/S channel.

19 The phrase used by the interpreter in question and heard by the a

20 witness, and I quote "Jao sto sere." I would like to invite the

21 interpreters to translate this phrase into English and French into order

22 to record the translation of the original phrase in the transcript I just

23 pronounced.

24 THE INTERPRETER: "He is full of shit."

25 JUDGE ORIE: Even if it does not appear to the Chamber to arise

Page 21868

1 from any ethnic prejudice or hostility to the Defence, the comment was

2 entirely inappropriate. Such comments are not acceptable in this Chamber

3 or at the Tribunal.

4 The Chamber is satisfied that appropriate action has been taken in

5 respect of the interpreter in question in order to prevent future

6 incidents of this nature. Furthermore, this interpreter offered to be

7 removed from this case. This interpreter will no longer be assigned to

8 work on the Krajisnik trial.

9 In addition, CLSS convened a staff meeting of all Tribunal

10 conference interpreters to remind them their professional obligations

11 under Article 4 of the Tribunal's Code of Ethics for Translators and

12 Interpreters requiring interpreters to maintain a professional attitude in

13 dealings with all persons inside the courtroom, including witnesses. All

14 Tribunal conference interpreters have been instructed to refrain from

15 making any comments in the interpretation booth.

16 On behalf of the Tribunal, the Chamber would like to apologise to

17 Witness Poplasen for the remark in question. It should not have occurred.

18 The Chamber kindly requests the Registrar to inform the Victims

19 and Witnesses Section of this statement and to convey the transcript of

20 this statement to Mr. Poplasen.

21 This concludes the Chamber's statement on this matter.

22 I will now move to some exhibit issues. The exhibits introduced

23 through Witness Poplasen, parties have been invited to consider will there

24 are any objections. Could I hear from the Defence first. That's the

25 document you had earlier not with you, Mr. Josse. It starts I think at

Page 21869

1 P1074 and as far as Defence exhibits are concerned is starts with D142.

2 If you're not prepared, then I hear from you after the next break.

3 MR. JOSSE: I would prefer that. I am very sorry.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, its-- can happen. Would the same be true

5 for the Radojko exhibits?

6 MR. JOSSE: I've got no observations about any of those.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then I think that since Mr. Tieger came for

8 the Radojko exhibits, then at least I would invite him to express any --

9 of course, the problem would be that Mr. Tieger would like to be present

10 if you raise any objections.

11 MR. JOSSE: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I still -- I have none.

12 JUDGE ORIE: You have none? Then I'm sorry.

13 MR. JOSSE: I said I have no observations. I occasionally use

14 that word to mean --

15 JUDGE ORIE: That you're not entirely happy but that you leave it

16 as it is.

17 MR. JOSSE: Precisely.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I understood you well. That is true for both

19 Poplasen and --

20 MR. JOSSE: No. No, I'm saying --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Just Poplasen.

22 MR. JOSSE: I beg your pardon. Just Radojko.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Just Radojko. Okay. Then, Mr. Tieger, since you're

24 here, and that was my concern at the moment, any objection to any exhibit

25 introduced by the Defence through Witness Radojko?

Page 21870

1 MR. TIEGER: No, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then all exhibits tendered through the Witness

3 Poplasen -- Mr. Radojko, that is for the Prosecution, that is P1098 up to

4 and including P1108, are admitted into evidence. And as far as Defence

5 exhibits are concerned, it is D145. They're admitted into evidence.

6 Then Poplasen, I don't remember, was it you, Mr. Harmon, who will

7 deal with Poplasen or -- yes. So then we'll hear then from Mr. Josse

8 after the next break, and I expect you to be here, Mr. Tieger, at least --

9 I don't know if you need to stay for the next witness.

10 MR. TIEGER: Well, everything's going so well so far, Your Honour,

11 I think I'll stick around.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then there is another matter. We have some

13 other issues about admission and the status of exhibits. I'd like to

14 address you concerning your respective exhibits tendered during the recent

15 examination of Witness Lakic. Several exhibits are ready to be admitted

16 into evidence at this time. This includes, for the Prosecution, P1109 up

17 to and including P1117, and for the Defence, D148.

18 The Chamber asks the parties to submit all objections to these

19 exhibits by Friday, that's tomorrow, 24th of March, otherwise they'll be

20 automatically entered into evidence.

21 The Defence also submitted several items that require translation,

22 and that is D146, D147, and D149. The Chamber asks that all translations

23 be completed by no later than the 10th of April, 2006.

24 Additionally, the Chamber asks the Prosecution to report on their

25 progress today or tomorrow in complying with the omnibus order of the 2nd

Page 21871

1 of March. Pages 3 and 4 of the order stipulated that the Prosecution

2 produce any documents surrounding the death of Husein Hotic in the Japra

3 valley by the 16th of March. The Chamber has not yet received these

4 materials.

5 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I can report now.


7 MR. HARMON: Counsel and I were to meet at some point in time. I

8 had submitted within a day or two of the omnibus order a list of proposed

9 exhibits untranslated to the Defence. I have in the meantime had those

10 documents translated and I'm prepared to submit them at any time,

11 Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We asked you to submit them, so then we'll --

13 MR. HARMON: I will submit them, Your Honour.


15 MR. JOSSE: Are we able to look at them before they're submitted,

16 in translation?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I --

18 MR. HARMON: I'm getting them as -- on a daily basis, Your Honour.

19 Yes, I assume the Defence, when I identified the documents with their

20 language assistants, would look over them themselves. I only started

21 receiving these in the last couple days. I assume the Defence was

22 completely familiar with the documents.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can imagine Mr. Josse wants to form an opinion

24 on these documents and working late at night and perhaps not -- no one is

25 available to translate for him the originals, that he'd like to have the

Page 21872

1 English translations.

2 MR. HARMON: I'm more than happy to accommodate Mr. Josse.

3 JUDGE ORIE: It's not matter which -- of course we asked for it

4 and progress is now made as far as I understand and we'll prompt Mr. Josse

5 just then to read them over so that if we'd ask whether there's any

6 objection to them that he can answer that question from his own knowledge

7 and not only secondhand.

8 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.


10 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, at the risk of being pedantic the order

11 in relation to the Lakic exhibits is that objections in writing, and, if

12 so, by what time, please?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if you ask whether we do that at the end of the

14 day, would I not object, but we're sitting tomorrow morning, from what I

15 understand, and if you'd say I could do it, then -- but preferably then in

16 writing by the very end of the day so not at the end of the session, then

17 we'd consider that.

18 MR. JOSSE: Yes. I mean, I'm not going to be able to personally

19 do it tomorrow morning because obviously I'm going to be in the courtroom.


21 MR. JOSSE: But --

22 JUDGE ORIE: But, Mr. Josse, if you have any alternative proposal.

23 But I do understand that our proposal is not clear to you. But if you --

24 it seems that you might have some problems in --

25 MR. JOSSE: Well, yes, but ...

Page 21873

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ask what you'd like us to grant you.

2 MR. JOSSE: Well --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Monday morning?

4 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then that's my next issue, that we will not sit

6 Monday morning but we will sit in the afternoon, upon your request, as I

7 understand. Then we make that even Monday afternoon.

8 MR. JOSSE: I'm very grateful to Your Honour in respect to that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We have checked -- at least, we have checked our

10 agendas and I don't know if all technical matters have already been

11 resolved but at least the Judges are willing to sit in the afternoon and I

12 think that the Prosecution was consulted as well to move from Monday

13 morning to afternoon. No problem.

14 I have not verified myself whether all our support staff or

15 whether that's all -- whether we did organise it all. I see Mr. Registrar

16 is nodding yes, so a lot of efforts have already been made to make this

17 move to the afternoon possible.

18 MR. JOSSE: On behalf of the Defence, might I say a collective

19 thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that -- then you have time until Monday in

21 the afternoon to -- to raise any objections in relation to the Lakic

22 documents.

23 MR. JOSSE: Thank you for that, too.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then we move on to the next issue, and that is that

25 the Chamber also asks for a response today or tomorrow from the Defence,

Page 21874

1 and I'm referring to transcript page 21.534, as they have yet to submit

2 Exhibits D114. It was due on the 20th of March.

3 MR. JOSSE: It's going to be done now.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's great. We asked for today or tomorrow,

5 so even if you would have done it tomorrow, it would be -- but before

6 members of the team move out, I have more on my list.

7 MR. JOSSE: Exactly. Exactly.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Since the Chamber would like to remind the Defence

9 that it was also asked, and now I'm referring to transcript page 21.053,

10 to produce the list of criminal cases from Kotor Varos municipality

11 referenced in the testimony of Witness D14 by Friday, the 24th of March.

12 The Chamber also expects the Defence to submit D123 and D139 by next

13 Monday, the 27th of March.

14 MR. JOSSE: Thank you, Your Honour, for reminding me about the D14

15 issue. That is one I will pursue when the Court rises today.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then now to keep everything in balance, the

17 Prosecution, and I now refer to page 3 of the 2nd of March omnibus order

18 was to submit the contracts and material supporting exhibit P340 to both

19 the Chamber and the Defence by the 16th of March. The Prosecution was

20 granted an extension until the 30th of March, and the Chamber kindly

21 reminds you that it awaits those materials.

22 MR. HARMON: If I may comment, Your Honour. I'm aware of the

23 deadline. I received your report from the field yesterday evening. I

24 have a report. I need to study the report. I have been informed that

25 there are possibly some obstructions in respect of that. I haven't

Page 21875

1 studied it. It was an oral report to me from the field. I need to look

2 at it and I'll keep the Chamber advised.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then the Chamber also recalls that it addressed

4 the parties on the 9th of March at transcript page 21.050 and 51 and asked

5 them to agree upon the type and amount of materials to submitted to the

6 Chamber regarding the legal decisions of Bosnian courts that may help shed

7 light on circumstances in Bosanski Novi. These materials are to be

8 submitted by today, 23rd of March. In the alternative, both parties are

9 expected to make oral or written submissions.

10 Was any agreement reached?

11 MR. HARMON: The answer is no, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: And is that due to fierce disagreement or it's by

13 just lack of time?

14 MR. HARMON: I think it's lack of time, Your Honour. We have some

15 materials we provided those to the Defence a while ago. I've not had the

16 opportunity to engage in discussions after the Defence has --


18 MR. HARMON: -- looked at those materials, so --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Would the parties prefer to have an extension of time

20 or would they rather say well, let's already make oral or written

21 submissions? I think it makes sense to ask for an extension of time, but

22 I'm not dictating what you should ask for.

23 MR. HARMON: I'm perfectly satisfied to do that. We will be

24 ready, Your Honour, on that issue. It's a question of the Defence having

25 the opportunity to look at those again and --

Page 21876

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, how much time do you think you need to

2 reach an agreement or to decide that you have no agreement?

3 MR. JOSSE: Well, realistically at least another week.

4 JUDGE ORIE: New date is set for the 30th of March.

5 Finally, the parties were asked on the 10th of March, transcript

6 page 21.065, to agree upon the necessity of translating the spoken

7 commentary in the video concerning the attack on a convoy in Tuzla. The

8 Defence took it upon itself to decide whether a translation was necessary.

9 We would like you to ask -- to respond by tomorrow.

10 MR. JOSSE: Well, the answer to that is resources dictate that

11 there will be no transcript provided, and the Chamber will need to view

12 the video silently.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This then concludes my questions and my

14 statement of the -- on the admission and the status of exhibits, but,

15 Mr. Harmon, you have another matter to raise?

16 MR. HARMON: I have two matters, Your Honour.


18 MR. HARMON: One, I am informed that Prosecution Exhibit 583 tab 7

19 needed a corrected translation. I have that corrected translation now

20 which I can furnish to the Chamber.


22 MR. HARMON: The second issue deals with a witness who is to be

23 called on Monday.


25 MR. HARMON: We received, as Your Honour is aware, late notice of

Page 21877

1 the witness. I am concerned about our ability to be ready, frankly, by

2 Monday on this particular witness. We have gone through a series of quick

3 changes for reasons that are known to the Court. I make no comments on

4 that, but it has put us at a serious disadvantage as to our preparation

5 time. As the Court knows, we make every effort to accommodate the Court

6 and the Defence in this respect, but I would like to foreshadow the

7 difficulties that I can see coming with the witness who was scheduled for

8 Monday.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber also regrets that the Defence fails

10 repeatedly to give in due time the information the Prosecution needs to

11 cross-examine witnesses. Even if no drastic measures are taken now,

12 immediately, it does not mean that it is a kind of silent acceptance by

13 the Chamber of this practice. Unless there's really something important

14 to say about it, Mr. Josse, I would like to leave it to that at this very

15 moment.

16 MR. JOSSE: There is nothing important to say other than there is

17 no more information that we can provide in relation to this witness at

18 this juncture.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I understand. Of course, you're expected to get

20 your information so timely that you would be in a position to do that, but

21 let's not restart this discussion at this moment. It will not --

22 MR. JOSSE: And the whys and wherefors of that --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Pardon.

24 MR. JOSSE: The whys and wherefors of that is, as Your Honour

25 knows, a complicated --

Page 21878

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we have --

2 MR. JOSSE: -- convoluted and protracted matter.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes I am aware of that and at the same time I am

4 aware that the Chamber gave some decisions and orders in this respected

5 which are not consistently followed.

6 As I said, I'd like to leave it to that at this very moment.

7 Mr. Harmon, you have provided us with a P1130 just before the

8 break. There are a few matters. First of all, the translation says that

9 a fee was imposed, where I take it that "the fine" is the proper

10 translation. It appears twice. You first find it in the middle of page

11 1, "hereby commuted to a fee," which should be a fine. And I take it that

12 the translation was made in -- very quickly and --

13 MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. We --

14 JUDGE ORIE: The second page, the word "fee" appears again, and

15 just a few lines before the signature of the judge and the notary we

16 find "500 convertible marks." It should be 50. First of all, the

17 original says 50; and secondly, 50 is the amount mentioned in Article 37,

18 paragraph 2 of the Republika Srpska Criminal Code. So it's both for legal

19 regions.

20 I also just note at this moment, Mr. Josse, that apart from

21 reference to these articles of the Republika Srpska Criminal Code, which

22 mainly say that it is possible upon the request of someone sentenced to

23 convert a prison sentence of not more than three months into a fine and

24 Article 37 allowing to -- well, several systems of payment, that therefore

25 I have no substantive reasons apart from THAT this is legally possible

Page 21879

1 upon the request of the accused.

2 Since the witness will leave and since we do not establish facts

3 but I would say the old Latin saying is jus curia novit, the court knows

4 the law, it's a matter of law, I think I could bring to your attention

5 apart from any substantial reasons, specific reasons for this case that

6 the reference is mainly to the legal possibility to do this.

7 And I take it the decision doesn't say who can appeal against this

8 decision but it's a final decision by now. I would not expect the witness

9 to appeal this decision since he requested it to be taken.

10 That's what I had on my mind. Perhaps, Mr. Harmon, it would be

11 good to have a full, correct translation.

12 MR. HARMON: We'll submit that tomorrow, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Is there anything else?

14 MR. JOSSE: I've got one matter, Your Honour.


16 MR. JOSSE: The Defence filed on the 17th of March a request for

17 clarification --


19 MR. JOSSE: -- in relation to a certain matter.


21 MR. JOSSE: A response to that is -- or is not going to be

22 forthcoming.

23 JUDGE ORIE: We're still considering the matter, whether and, if

24 so, what clarification the --

25 MR. JOSSE: We'll --

Page 21880

1 JUDGE ORIE: There are a lot of questions in --

2 MR. JOSSE: Yes, Your Honour. We'll be told if no clarification

3 is going to be forthcoming, presumably.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if finally -- we don't let you wait for months

5 and months and then to find out that the Chamber is not intending to give

6 any clarification.

7 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Once we've made up our mind we'll let you know. If

9 the clarification is there if you hear about it; if no clarification will

10 be there we'll inform you about it, that no clarification will be given.

11 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any further procedural issue? Then I think we

13 could -- yes. Mr. Josse, the long break was to enable you to consult with

14 Mr. Krajisnik. Are there any further questions?

15 MR. JOSSE: There are three or four topics he wants me to

16 re-examine upon.


18 MR. JOSSE: All of them do arise from cross-examination, I can say

19 that.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll ask Madam Usher to escort the

21 witness into the courtroom. And, Mr. Josse, once he's in, you may start

22 your re-examination.

23 [The witness entered court]

24 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, notwithstanding Your Honour's comments

25 about the 1130, I would rather show it to the witness if I may.

Page 21881

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No problem. I just thought that it might

2 assist the parties. You may not have found time immediately to verify the

3 articles mentioned in it, to give at least an impression of what it says.

4 MR. JOSSE: Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Maricic, please be seated.

6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Maricic. Mr. Josse has a few more questions

8 for you. Mr. Josse, please proceed.

9 MR. JOSSE: Could Mr. Maricic be given a copy of P1130.

10 Q. This, Mr. Maricic, is the document that was mentioned to you at

11 the beginning of today, document which has been obtained overnight, which

12 shows that your sentence of imprisonment was commuted to a fine of 4.500

13 convertible -- 4.500 convertible marks. Have you seen this particular

14 document before?

15 A. Yes, I have seen this document. I received this document perhaps

16 within ten days.

17 Q. There is a suggestion that the sentence was altered or commuted

18 from imprisonment to a fine as a result of your invoking a statutory

19 provision in the Republika Srpska Criminal Code which allows persons who

20 are sentenced to three months or less imprisonment to pay a fine instead.

21 Can you comment upon that?

22 A. This was done by my lawyer.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I suggested that it was possible to make a

24 request to that extent, which allows persons who are sentenced to -- less

25 to pay a fine.

Page 21882

1 MR. JOSSE: We now know the answer.


3 MR. JOSSE: And --


5 MR. JOSSE: I was just keen to clarify the matter.



8 Q. And some might say slightly bizarrely this notice says that an

9 appeal can be filed against this decision, presumably by the accused

10 rather than the prosecution. You obviously did not appeal this decision

11 which bearing in mind what had happened you were content with, you having

12 elected to pay the fine rather than going to prison. Is that right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. I want to return to the issue of the document P1124. And I was

15 asking you earlier some questions in relation to your war service. Are

16 you able to tell the Chamber from your own personal knowledge from what

17 date is your status as a combatant in the war deemed to start from?

18 A. I think from the date I went to the front line, which I believe

19 was the 2nd of May, 1992.

20 Q. Such pension rights as you've got, are they affected by the fact

21 that you were invalided out of the war?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Do you receive any pension for having been a combatant, in fact?

24 A. I've stated that I have been receiving a minimum civilian pension,

25 no other. I have also been receiving a minimum sum of an allowance as a

Page 21883

1 war invalid.

2 Q. Just explain about what being a war invalid means. It maybe

3 obvious, but it would help if you put that some other way if you could.

4 A. I was wounded on -- at the front line in combat. Any such

5 persons, if invalided based on the findings of a medical commission are

6 granted the status of war invalids.

7 Q. Could you turn, please, to tab 18. If we look at the very end of

8 this document dated the 13th of August of 1992, like I said, we see that

9 it is dated the 13th of August, 1992. It's addressed to the president of

10 SRBH Presidency, the prime minister, and the army Main Staff commander.

11 Could you have a look, please, at the last paragraph of the first page.

12 It's the last paragraph of the first page in English as well, helpfully.

13 It says: "None of the paramilitary formations expresses political

14 affiliation to the ruling SDS. On the contrary, all have political ties

15 with the opposition parties from Serbia, the SPO, the Serbian renewal

16 movements, SNO, SRS," and so on.

17 Are you able to comment on that paragraph, please?

18 A. I think that states rightly that most of them did not declare

19 themselves to be members of the SDS. I know what these abbreviations

20 mean. However, the Socialist Party of Serbia and JUL should be added to

21 this.

22 Q. You've obviously got no idea what the president of the Presidency

23 did if and when he received this document?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Tab 17, please. You've been taken to --

Page 21884

1 MR. HARMON: Excuse me, Your Honour. Just to interrupt. So the

2 record is perfectly clear, I think it's important the exhibit number is

3 posted as opposed to the tab number being inserted into the record, so ...

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, except 18 might be difficult to retrieve,

5 Mr. Josse.

6 MR. HARMON: I can help for the purposes of the last exhibit

7 refers to is P529, tab 463, and the exhibit, then, tab 17, is Prosecution

8 Exhibit 529, Hanson tab 74.

9 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Thank you. You've been taken to parts of this

10 summary of events and situations with an assessment of the degree of

11 achievement which appears to be undated and purports to be signed by the

12 War Presidency of Brcko municipality. The last paragraph of the report or

13 the summary says: "The goal of this analysis of the situation so far is

14 to direct attention to the results achieved and current problems that must

15 be resolved as soon as possible. All other necessary information

16 available to us will be presented in a more detailed conversation with the

17 senior organs."

18 Do you have any idea for whose benefit or purpose this document

19 was composed?

20 A. I have no idea. I can't say who composed it.

21 Q. The last paragraph that I have just read out to you, could you

22 explain that in some other words? What is the author of this driving at?

23 MR. HARMON: I object to that. That calls for an interpretation

24 that this witness, I don't think, is able to give or should be permitted

25 to --

Page 21885

1 JUDGE ORIE: We don't know yet, Mr. Harmon, whether he is able

2 witness is able so the witness is allowed to answer the question it could

3 be that he has some special knowledge that would clarify but let's wait

4 and see what he says.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean the last paragraph on

6 this first page?


8 Q. No, I beg your pardon. The last paragraph that I read out on the

9 very last page. You're going the wrong way, Mr. Maricic. It's -- it's a

10 difficult document, I know, because it's got these stamps from a Tribunal

11 official interspersed on every other page.

12 So, Madam Usher, the last paragraph on the last page immediately

13 above the signature.

14 A. I can't comment on this. It is quite vague. I don't know even

15 when it was written. The conclusion that I can draw from this is that

16 this serves to draw attention to problems arising from poor coordination

17 and the fact that many units were out of anyone's control.

18 MR. JOSSE: I have nothing else, Your Honour.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Josse.

20 Mr. Harmon.

21 MR. HARMON: I have nothing, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: I have no further questions either. Mr. Maricic,

23 this concludes your testimony in this court. You've answered questions of

24 both parties and questions put to you by the Bench. I'd like to thank you

25 very much for having come to The Hague, and I wish you a safe trip home

Page 21886

1 again. Yes.

2 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Maricic out of the

3 courtroom.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE ORIE: Since we have some time left to the break, could we

6 deal with the exhibits introduced through Mr. Maricic. Mr. Registrar,

7 that would be from.

8 THE REGISTRAR: P118, Your Honours, up until P1130.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And for the Defence?

10 THE REGISTRAR: D150 up until and including D152.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Are the parties in a position to immediately

12 address any objections they'd like to make?

13 MR. JOSSE: If Your Honour would literally give me a moment,

14 perhaps I --

15 JUDGE ORIE: What we could also do is to have the break now and do

16 this immediately after the break, and then we'll hear any report on the

17 Poplasen exhibits as well. You also received the list from Mr. Registrar

18 of all the exhibits listed which were introduced through Mr. Maricic.

19 Then we could both deal with the Poplasen, and if you would need more time

20 for the exhibits introduced through Mr. Maricic, please ask for it.

21 MR. JOSSE: Yes. On this occasion I think I'd be quite keen to

22 deal with it after a short break while it's fresh in my mind.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. Perhaps I -- then perhaps use the time to

24 the extent that you're in a position to respond to the issue addressed in

25 the memo by the registrar.

Page 21887

1 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Well, I have spoken to Mr. Stewart.


3 MR. JOSSE: I have -- of course, he hasn't read this document, and

4 I'm bound to say in an ideal world I would like him to do that. But I

5 also made this observation: I noticed that the letter from the chief

6 court management at the registry of the court of Bosnia and Herzegovina

7 was obviously written in B/C/S. We don't have the original of that

8 letter, and I'd very much like my client to see it.


10 MR. JOSSE: I did telephone the person to whom it's addressed at

11 the VWS and left her a message. She wasn't at her desk. I've been in

12 court since --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do --

14 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, I'm prepared --

15 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that you want to verify everything.

16 Mr. Josse, let me add to this that --

17 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- the Defence was very late with asking the Chamber

19 to take action in order to make sure that Mr. Bjelica would appear in this

20 courtroom. Now -- it turns out now what consequences this has, because we

21 are again fighting against time because if finally there would be no

22 possibility to have Mr. Bjelica here in court preparing for videolink takes

23 time as well. So I'm -- I just want to urge the Defence to make up its

24 mind as soon as possible.

25 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, could I make some submissions now?

Page 21888


2 MR. JOSSE: The reason I have a preamble --


4 MR. JOSSE: -- is before any final decision is made, I would urge

5 the Chamber to reflect some sure at will on what I say. No doubt there

6 may be some feedback and I could then speak to Mr. Stewart overnight and

7 with a bit of luck Mr. Krajisnik may get a copy of this letter. But,

8 Your Honour, I can assist because, as I've already indicated, most of the

9 issues dealt with in this letter were stated to us at a meeting

10 Mr. Stewart and I attended two or three nights ago. The problem with a

11 videolink is really two or threefold. I understand there are problems,

12 logistical problems from the Registry and Chamber's point of view. But so

13 far as of the Defence is concerned it will either realistically means that

14 either Mr. Stewart or I would need to spend four days in the Republika

15 Srpska.

16 This man has been seen by me for approximately an hour when he had

17 his liberty. It was a long time ago. He gave me a very large number of

18 documents, most of which have been looked at by members of our team, some

19 of which - not many, I'm bound to say - have been translated and are going

20 to be used, but there are a lot of documents. He's also produced a video

21 that we were intending to play, at least in part.

22 His evidence is relatively complicated, and we submit of some real

23 importance. He requires approximately two days' proving by any stretch of

24 the imagination. Two days proofing, respectively, two days travelling.

25 One of us would have to spend four days in the Republika Srpska. It's

Page 21889

1 really as simple as that as far as we can see.

2 Second drawback, of course, is it means the witness wouldn't be

3 able to see our client in the normal way of things. I appreciate --

4 Mr. Krajisnik may not entirely agree with this but I appreciate that

5 bearing in mind the very unusual circumstances, that may not be a

6 consideration in the forefront of the mind of the Chamber.

7 So, Your Honour, there are serious practical difficulties as far

8 as we are concerned. Finally and the third point is I am also painfully

9 aware that if he's going to be called, he needs to be called sooner rather

10 than later. Let's leave aside the schedule that we're under, and I'm not

11 diminishing that for one moment, but we can put it aside for the purpose

12 of this submission. Clearly he needs to leave the Republika Srpska if

13 he's going to leave the Republika Srpska again sooner rather than later.

14 His trial is going to begin in due course, and were he to give evidence --

15 were he to be required to give evidence sometime in the future in The

16 Hague, then it's going to be very much harder to bring him here. Common

17 sense dictates that.

18 A member of our team spoke yesterday to his lawyer who, broadly

19 speaking said, as far as he the lawyer was concerned the witness was

20 available to come to The Hague forthwith so far as his case in Bosnia is

21 concerned, if Your Honour sees what I mean by that.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider what you've said. At the same

23 time, I think that everyone should understood the efforts made by the

24 Chamber until now, and now again urging you as quickly as possible make up

25 your mind on what course we should take in this respect. It is because

Page 21890

1 the Chamber is very much concerned not to lose any evidence that might be

2 of importance for the Defence case.

3 MR. JOSSE: Sorry, Your Honour. Our position is plain and simple.

4 We want him brought here as soon as possible. There's absolutely no

5 ambiguity about that whatsoever. I -- in the course of the submissions I

6 have just made, I was trying to be realistic about the problems that

7 everyone in this courtroom faces, those in Bosnia face, but our position

8 is plain: We want the 90 bis order executed as soon as possible.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The question is whether that's possible.

10 MR. JOSSE: Well --

11 JUDGE ORIE: And whether it's not possible whether a second-best

12 solution, whether we should start preparing it. That's the issue. Of

13 course, I do understand that you'd like to have the witness here. Of

14 course, it would have been better to apply for such an order far earlier

15 and to do it at a moment when there was still some flexibility, because

16 the present scheduling tells you that by the 4th of April your case

17 presentation -- the presentation of the evidence -- of the witnesses

18 before Mr. Krajisnik's testimony would -- would have to -- to finish,

19 unless you would have to -- unless you would have decided. Then we

20 alluded to that a couple of days earlier to -- well, say, to sacrifice

21 some of the time you intended to spend on the testimony of Mr. Krajisnik

22 for other witnesses.

23 I fully understand what you would like to happen. The question is

24 that how realistic it is at this moment that it could happen as you wish

25 it to happen, and second, what alternatives there.

Page 21891

1 I'm not saying you should give up, but one thing is for sure, that

2 the alternative of a videolink is not seriously considered at this moment

3 we might end up in a situation that neither the presence of the witness

4 here could be achieved nor a videolink in due time. So therefore that's,

5 I think, the problem we'll -- yes, Mr. Harmon.

6 MR. HARMON: One comment --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

8 MR. HARMON: One comment to make to the Court in respect of what

9 Mr. Josse has just said. He says that he has identified -- Mr. Bjelica

10 gave the Defence a significant number of documents, some of which have

11 been identified and is -- for use in the testimony of Mr. Bjelica, and in

12 respect of the order of this Court to provide to the parties 14 days in

13 advance exhibits, we would therefore request now copies of those exhibits

14 to be provided to us.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Josse. Of course, the exhibit list under

16 65 ter is not complete, but Mr. Harmon says you received documents. You

17 want to use them. Part of them are even already translated from what I

18 understand. Mr. Harmon would like to receive them.

19 MR. JOSSE: I'll ask that that be arranged. It's a reasonable

20 request --


22 MR. JOSSE:-- and I will ask that someone in our team attend to

23 that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break until five minutes to six. We'll

25 then first deal with any objections, Poplasen and Mr. Maricic, and then

Page 21892

1 are you ready to call your next witness, Mr. Josse?

2 MR. JOSSE: I am, Your Honour. I -- I am. I wouldn't mind going

3 to see him for five minutes simply because I told him he was going to be

4 on about two and a half hours ago. That's my fault, not his, but I think

5 it might only be fair that I reassure him because I suspect he's been

6 sitting in this building for the last four hours or so.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I think 20 minutes should be enough to do that.

8 We'll adjourn until five minutes to six.

9 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 6.05 p.m.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, I do understand that you have been

12 provided with an English translation of the letter on the what you call

13 the Bjelica issue and that a B/C/S version is available now as well.

14 Then I'd like to ask you the following, to consider, because we

15 have given it quite some attention also during this break, if for whatever

16 reasons the Chamber would consider it fair to grant two or three or four

17 extra days so that you would not have to finish the presentation of

18 witnesses on the 4th of April but, let's say, the 5th or the 6th or the

19 7th, and if we would be able to get Mr. Bjelica here in, well, let's say

20 approximately 10 days, which would mean arrival the 3rd or the 4th, would

21 you consider to -- then to take all the risks that other witnesses that

22 are here, you have to finish them quickly, you have to -- if they come

23 late or if they are -- have the flu or whatever then it would be Mr.

24 Bjelica. You have to prioritise what's most important for you because if

25 we would -- if we would take this course, if it's possible at all, if we

Page 21893

1 would grant it, if it's possible for VWS, if -- well, let's say, technical

2 difficulties such as documents which are needed and are not found yet

3 although the existence is -- travel documents, for example, that the

4 existence is not in dispute, I'd like you to consider whether or not you

5 find Mr. Bjelica to be in court here so important that if this opportunity

6 would be given whether you would take that with both hands and give it

7 full priority or not, because it takes a huge effort from everyone. It

8 also takes, again, the effort for the Chamber. I mean, even we, we're

9 human beings as well, we are not able to schedule anything for ourselves

10 any more apart from taking off weeks, which is usual in this Tribunal in

11 spring. We don't do that. But then, of course, a full commitment to

12 start tomorrow morning, so you have one night to consider that and to

13 speak about it with Mr. Stewart, if he comes in court tomorrow morning,

14 then the less time it takes the better it is if you would go out five

15 minutes past nine or ten minutes past nine to start further preparing

16 everything it's better than 9.30. That's what I put to you, something to

17 consider.

18 MR. JOSSE: Thank you. That's exactly what we'll do. We'll

19 consider it.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you need any further guidance, you can get

21 in touch with the legal staff of the Chamber.

22 MR. JOSSE: They've been very helpful in this regard hitherto, I

23 might add --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Because as a matter of fact, half an hour ago I would

25 have considered it totally impossible to have Mr. Bjelica here before the

Page 21894

1 start of the testimony of Mr. Krajisnik at all, and I had serious doubts

2 on whether it would be possible at all to have a video -- videolink there,

3 and I was of course also very much concerned about taking time off from

4 the testimony of Mr. Krajisnik. But this is to be considered. If you

5 need any further information, please address Mr. Zahar.

6 Any further matter at this moment? I don't think there is.

7 MR. JOSSE: I can deal with these exhibits as and when the Chamber

8 requires.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's do it as quickly as possible. We had on

10 our list Poplasen.

11 MR. JOSSE: As far as Mr. Poplasen is concerned, the only

12 objection is to P1078. That's found at tab 6 in the bundle of documents.

13 It is the -- described the partial translation from Glas Srpski dated

14 August 1993, highly prejudicial. Derogatory assertions which he

15 completely denied. Bearing in mind he completely denied it, in our

16 submission it could have no evidential value whatsoever. It's worse than

17 hearsay; it's bit of journalistic rubbish.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear. Mr. Harmon.

19 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we seek its admission, this is a

20 document that Mr. Poplasen claimed was a forgery. This is a document

21 which comes from Glas Srpski which is the -- the Court has heard the

22 status of that particular newspaper. We believe it is admissible. It

23 goes to his credibility, and it should be admitted, in our view. There

24 are similar statements made by Mr. Poplasen of a similar nature. If I

25 turn to the document that's in tab 8, Mr. Poplasen didn't dispute the fact

Page 21895

1 that he called for retaliation against UN -- UNPROFOR forces. This is

2 from a journal that is an official organ or official newspaper of the

3 Republika Srpska.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, yes.

5 MR. JOSSE: I know Mr. Harmon doesn't mean that but that is

6 disingenuous to draw an analogy between what Poplasen said in tab 8 to

7 what he says at tab 7, allegedly, where he uses the word physically

8 liquidate members of UNPROFOR. The analogy simply is not fair nor

9 accurate.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider the matter. Mr. Harmon --

11 MR. HARMON: I have no further submissions, Your Honour.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Then Poplasen. Prosecution.

13 MR. HARMON: We have no objections --

14 JUDGE ORIE: No objection.

15 MR. HARMON: We have no objection to the exhibits, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. Then the exhibits tendered through Mr.

17 Maricic.

18 MR. JOSSE: So far as Mr. Maricic is concerned, Your Honour, tab

19 31, P1118 is objected to.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That's the Tanjug article.

21 MR. JOSSE: Again it's a newspaper article. The short bit that

22 was in effect put to him where it -- the article which, by the way, is not

23 altogether clear what this piece of paper is, although I dare say

24 Mr. Harmon can help as far as that is concerned, it's not a newspaper

25 article as such, whether it's come off the internet, I don't know. I

Page 21896

1 assume it has, bearing in mind what appears at the bottom of the piece of

2 paper, but it's the penultimate paragraph which the Prosecution relied

3 upon where it alleged that the witness was first commander of the Serb

4 Territorial Defence of Brcko to be acting chief, really, very similar

5 point. No source, appears on the internet. The Chamber can't place any

6 reliance upon it whatsoever. If this is the best Prosecution can do,

7 well, I need not say any more.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whatever our decision may be, but first,

9 Mr. Harmon, I give you an opportunity to respond, but at least what it

10 refers to should be stricken from the reference to what the exhibit is

11 because it's comment rather than identification of the document.

12 MR. HARMON: Your Honour, it's our position and our submission

13 that Mr. Maricic was the first commander of the Serbian Territorial

14 Defence in Brcko. It is our position that his denial was untruthful.

15 This is a document that asserts that, and it's our view that this is

16 admissible and the Court can consider this document when considering the

17 credibility of this witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's not a full answer to what Mr. Josse

19 raised, but --

20 MR. JOSSE: Well, if my learned friend wants to call this a

21 document, then his definition and mine differs, but it's for Your Honours

22 to decide, of course.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider the matter. Any other

24 objection?

25 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

Page 21897


2 MR. JOSSE: Tab 11, P1128.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Transport of munition authorisation.

4 MR. JOSSE: No, Your Honour. I'll withdraw my objection in

5 relation to that document. That concludes my submission in relation to

6 Mr. Maricic.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Any objections against Defence exhibits?

8 MR. HARMON: No objections.

9 JUDGE ORIE: No objections. Then all the exhibits which were not

10 objected to are admitted into evidence and the Chamber will decide in due

11 course on the -- on -- it was P1118.

12 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

13 courtroom. Next witness.

14 MR. TIEGER: Your Honours, I'll excuse myself at this point.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.


17 [Witness answered through interpreter]

18 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Krsman. At least I take it

19 you're Mr. Krsman. Do you hear me in a language you understand?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of

22 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration. The text

23 is now handed out to you by Madam Usher. May I invite you to make that

24 solemn declaration.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 21898

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Krsman. Please be seated. You'll

3 first be examined by Mr. Josse, counsel for the Defence.

4 Mr. Josse, from the 65 ter summary I saw that -- I don't know how

5 much time you're going to spend on it and how general or how specific it

6 will be, but one of these days you heard from Mr. Harmon, and I take it

7 Mr. Tieger takes the same position, that a lot of facts which may have

8 some relevance for sentencing are not disputed by the Prosecution. I'm

9 mainly talking about attacks from other parties.

10 MR. JOSSE: Well, Your Honour, I have a submission to make about

11 that. Is Your Honour referring to the last paragraph of the penultimate

12 page of the 65 ter?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just -- I'm -- no. I think -- I'm not --

14 MR. JOSSE: I'm sorry.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I'm -- I'm referring to the 7th of February,

16 2006, but it might be --

17 MR. JOSSE: My fault. I was looking at a different document, more

18 an expansive one that I have in my papers.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether we --

20 MR. JOSSE: I've now got the 65 ter in front of me.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And something about crimes committed against --

22 well, you may have noticed --

23 MR. JOSSE: On the last page. The top of the last page.

24 JUDGE ORIE: It's put as part of another document I have in front

25 of me, so it was very short at that time, isn't it, the 65 ter summary of

Page 21899

1 the 7th of February.

2 MR. JOSSE: Oh, I don't even have that because it's been

3 significantly expanded since then.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not spend too much time on it. I'll further

5 look at it. But since it reads there "and the crimes committed against

6 Serb population by the Muslims," that's --

7 MR. JOSSE: Well, we have a submission about that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Now, or --

9 MR. JOSSE: Well, I -- probably needs to be done in the witness's

10 absence. Tomorrow morning would be fine. I'm not going to get to it

11 until --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

13 MR. JOSSE: -- tomorrow morning.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then please start your examination. I think I'm

15 referring to the 7th of February, because we never received another one as

16 far as I understand. So if at least you'd send it by e-mail later today

17 so we can look at it over night.

18 MR. JOSSE: Yes. Can I check that Mr. Tieger's got it. 18th --

19 it's actually stating on the top of it, 18th of March, 2006.

20 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Your Honour.

21 THE WITNESS: Well, then Mr. Tieger has it. We have not.

22 MR. JOSSE: And does the Chamber need it, bearing in mind --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Well, 65 ter summaries are there to be produced at

24 the beginning of the Defence case and to be presented to the Chamber and

25 of course Mr. Tieger has a copy as well, but primary purpose is for the

Page 21900

1 Chamber.

2 MR. JOSSE: Primary purpose. Sorry, I hadn't appreciated that --

3 the import of the Rule.

4 JUDGE ORIE: So that we can decide on issues, on how much time

5 would be needed, what scheduling, et cetera. It's exactly the issue which

6 has come up again and again and again that this Chamber is not in the

7 position to schedule, to adapt schedules, to take into consideration

8 changing situations since it has not been provided with the basic

9 information it needs to -- not to conduct the trial because the parties

10 will present the evidence. But the Chamber is responsible for scheduling,

11 the Chamber is responsible for granting time, and is not in a position to

12 do that. So therefore, if I say 65 ter, if you read it, I think it

13 doesn't say that the other party should be provided with it but that the

14 Pre-Trial Judge should be provided with this information.

15 Please proceed, Mr. --

16 MR. JOSSE: Yes.

17 Examination by Mr. Josse:

18 Q. Your name is Sinisa Krsman?

19 A. No, my name is Sinisa Krsman.

20 Q. You have given evidence in this building once before, haven't you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. You gave evidence in the trial of Galic?

23 A. Yes. I was a Defence witness in the case against General Galic.

24 Q. So far as your background is concerned, you are from Rajlovac,

25 where you grew up? That's where you lived till the outbreak of the war?

Page 21901

1 A. Yes. I was born in Sarajevo, Rajlovac, the village of Zabrdje.

2 That's where we lived until the war broke out, and then we became

3 refugees, and we never returned there because everything is burnt down and

4 destroyed.

5 Q. You did your military service in the JNA. You then began a

6 university economics degree, but you gave that up and became a

7 businessman.

8 A. Yes, I finished serving in 1980. After that I started to work and

9 continued to work until the war broke out.

10 Q. We'll talk about -- or I'll asking you about that work in a few

11 moments' time. You spent the war as a soldier and a company commander; is

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes. Throughout the war, I was in my village of Zabrdje first as

14 commander of a squad then commander of a company until the Dayton Accords

15 were signed and the war was over.

16 Q. You then went to live in Lukavica where you now run a cafe?

17 A. Yes. Just after the signing of the Dayton Accords I moved to

18 Lukavica and lived as a tenant in an apartment until I found a job that

19 could provide me with a livelihood sufficient to keep me and my family.

20 Q. So far as politics is concerned, you were president of a youth

21 organisation in the former Yugoslavia. What was the name of that

22 organisation, please?

23 A. That organisation was called the alliance of the socialist youth

24 of the SFRY. It was only one form of political organisation, but the most

25 important form was the Socialist Alliance of the Working People that

Page 21902

1 consisted mainly of older people. We, the youth, engaged mainly in

2 organising all sorts of excursions, day trips, various events.

3 Q. You were a member of the League of Communists realigned to your

4 position within the youth organisation that you have just described. Is

5 that a fair summary?

6 A. I was automatically admitted into the League of Communists,

7 because a non-member of the League of Communists could not be the

8 president of the youth organisation. However, I was replaced very quickly

9 and expelled from the League of Communists, but I remained president of

10 the youth organisation because I was widely respected and even loved.

11 Q. And you did not join another political party till after the war

12 when you joined the Serb Radical Party; is that correct?

13 A. Yes, just after the Dayton Accords I became a member of the

14 Serbian Radical Party because I believe that everybody has the right to

15 choose the option that best represents himself and his goals.

16 Q. You have known Momcilo Krajisnik since you were a boy?

17 A. Yes. I've known him and his family, because both our families

18 have been natives of Zabrdje for 4 or 500 years, and everybody knows one

19 another in Zabrdje, and I knew Mr. Krajisnik especially closely.

20 Q. In fact, in 1988 [Realtime transcript read in error "1988"], you

21 were working for an organisation called Slateks, which was a textile

22 company; is that right?

23 A. Yes, that's correct. The management of that company was in Banja

24 Luka, and there was a branch company in Sarajevo, and I became chief of

25 that branch company in Sarajevo.

Page 21903

1 Q. Yes. The transcript says perhaps I said it 1998, but in fact it

2 was 1988 that you got this job, just to clarify the situation.

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. You worked at that time from an office that was located in the

5 home of Mr. Krajisnik. Is that the position?

6 A. Yes. This was not merely an office. It -- there were several

7 office premises and warehouses.

8 Q. Where did Mr. -- or where were Mr. Krajisnik and his family's

9 living quarters in relation to your office?

10 A. Mr. Krajisnik resided with his family upstairs. His father,

11 mother, and brother lived in an old house some 50 metres away.

12 Q. For what are period of time did your office, the office of

13 Slateks, remain in Mr. Krajisnik's home?

14 A. I worked there for about one year, and after that I took up

15 another position I believe the office premises stayed there for some five

16 or six months more.

17 Q. At the time that you were -- that you had your office in his home,

18 what was Mr. Krajisnik's level of political interest and involvement as

19 far as you could gauge?

20 A. Mr. Krajisnik's level of participation was exclusively at the

21 local level in that period of time, as was ours, in fact. We were

22 preoccupied with basic problems such as water supply, transportation of

23 pupils and so on and so forth. These were matters that were of great

24 importance to us, and we were unable to find adequate solutions for them.

25 Q. When you left Slateks, what work did you then move into?

Page 21904

1 A. I opened up a private business of my own and a shop at Zabrdje

2 where I worked until the outbreak of hostilities.

3 MR. JOSSE: I'm going to hand out a map. Your Honour, there are

4 various maps that we have got. I'm grateful to the Prosecution providing

5 this one. It will certainly do for now. Maybe I'll present another map

6 to the witness in due course.

7 Q. With the pointer, show the learned Judges where Zabrdje is,

8 please.

9 JUDGE ORIE: It looks a bit repetitious, Mr. Josse. I think we

10 had Zabrdje already several times under our eyes. Please proceed.

11 MR. JOSSE: I suspect I can lead on this therefore.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.


14 Q. This was a village that was almost exclusively occupied by Serbs?

15 A. Not almost exclusively but, rather, there was only one house

16 inhabited by Muslims there.

17 Q. And Rajlovac was in effect a collection of 11 villages on the

18 outskirts of Sarajevo; correct?

19 A. Yes, that's correct. As you can see on this map, out of the 11

20 villages, 10 were purely Serb villages. There was only one mixed village,

21 that's to say there were Serbs and Muslims. The map you see now, it says

22 Matusi [phoen], Bjelice, Miljatovici, Lemezi. This map must be some 30

23 years old because these are old Serb families. Where it says Sokolje you

24 can see there's not a single house here. This is very important for the

25 Trial Chamber to know. Where none of the houses were marked on the map

Page 21905

1 between 1972 and 1982, this was -- or, rather, 1992, according to the 1991

2 census some 20.000 Muslims settled the area.

3 In the municipality of Rajlovac, you had the barracks and other

4 companies which were all built on the Serbian land taken from the

5 inhabitants of Zabrdje and other villages. That's to say that in the 20

6 years the make-up of our municipality had completely changed which led to

7 the problems I mentioned in my earlier evidence when I said we were faced

8 with various problems which we were unable to solve.

9 Q. So you have described how the municipality or the area had

10 changed. It's also right that there was a Rajlovac municipality, but

11 after Second World War it became part of the of the Novi Grad

12 municipality.

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. 1991, early 1992, you described already the demography of the

15 area. Were there any ethnic tensions apparent in Rajlovac?

16 A. You see, the first and foremost problems we were faced with were

17 those which dealt with food, and this was brought on by immigration.

18 Initially we had sufficient water supplies; however, by the sudden influx

19 of population of some 20.000 people, the water pressure was too low and we

20 didn't have enough water.

21 Secondly, public transportation became a problem. With the great

22 influx of people, the public transportation became inadequate and people

23 were late to work and pupils were late to school.

24 Thirdly, in the area of employment, there were great difficulties,

25 and we had to start defending our interests. To tell you the truth, we

Page 21906

1 have to say that we didn't have any inter-ethnic problems, conflicts, or

2 resentment. What we wanted was to start solving our problems in

3 accordance with the law.

4 Q. Were there any events which you would describe or perhaps I should

5 say events or actions which you would describe as provocations by your

6 neighbours from other ethnic groups?

7 A. Up until March 1992, there had been no provocations along those

8 lines.

9 Q. A decision was made to separate again the Rajlovac municipality.

10 That's correct, isn't it?

11 A. Yes, that's correct. In the second half of 1991, we embarked on a

12 legislative procedure with a view to establishing the municipality of

13 Rajlovac. It was only on the 23rd of February, if I remember well, that

14 we held a constituent session at which we set up the municipality of

15 Rajlovac or, rather, reinstituted the municipality of Rajlovac, which had

16 existed before World War II.

17 Q. At that time, the time of the reinstitution of the municipality of

18 Rajlovac, were you involved in municipal politics or municipal affairs?

19 A. I took part in that process as did any resident of Zabrdje and the

20 area of Rajlovac. We endorsed the initiative with the support of very

21 strong arguments that Muslims and Croats from the municipality of Novi

22 Grad refused to accept. I must say that we were among the last ones to

23 have set up this municipality and proclaimed it the Serb municipality of

24 Rajlovac.

25 Q. What part did you take, Mr. Krsman?

Page 21907

1 A. The municipality of Rajlovac, as I've just said, comprises 11

2 villages and hamlets of the former municipality of Novi Grad wherein 95

3 per cent of the population were Serbs. Others were also given the

4 possibility to declare through a referendum or otherwise whether they

5 wished to continue living in the municipality of Rajlovac, and I believe

6 that this was a correct and fair gesture on our part.

7 Q. No. The last two questions I have asked perhaps you slightly

8 misunderstood them, but you haven't exactly answered. My first question

9 was whether you were involved in municipal politics as such at the time of

10 the reinstitution of the Rajlovac municipality.

11 A. No. I wasn't politically active. I was a representative there on

12 behalf of the youth organisation to see how far the initiative would go

13 and the progress it made.

14 Q. Bearing this that mind, what you have just said, what part did you

15 take in the decision to form or reinstitute the old municipality?

16 A. My participation was not significant, but I was present at the

17 Assembly where this took place. There were legally elected

18 representatives of the Assembly who proclaimed it at this particular

19 session.

20 Q. What effect on the life of the citizens of Zabrdje was there as a

21 result of the formation of the new municipality?

22 A. You must know that this took place on the 23rd of February, 1992.

23 Had there not been a war, we would have been one of the wealthiest

24 municipalities in the former Yugoslavia for sure. However, the start of

25 the war and hostilities forced us to spend the entire war on the front

Page 21908

1 line and in combat. The only thing we experienced were the horrors of war

2 because of the proximity of the line of separation.

3 After the Dayton Accords, the Rajlovac municipality wanted to

4 remain such as it was. However, the war led the events in a totally

5 different direction.

6 Q. We can see on the map the barracks that dominate this particular

7 piece of paper; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct. Air force and technical school centre was

9 the largest centre of the sort in the former Yugoslavia where cadets

10 underwent training, as did the senior officers. Thousands of highly

11 educated servicemen graduated from this centre and spent their entire

12 service in the JNA.

13 Q. The occupants of the barracks moved out sometime in March. Is

14 that your understanding?

15 A. There's nothing to understand there. I know that. There were

16 10.000 cadets in the barracks. That's to say young persons up to 18 years

17 of age. Already in March they were moving out because there was strong

18 pressure exerted by their parents. They -- these cadets came from all

19 over Yugoslavia. They moved out in March, and only officers who taught

20 them remained in the barracks. These were teachers holding high ranks,

21 lieutenant colonels, colonels, and of course the security of the barracks.

22 Q. What happened to the firearms that were contained within the

23 arsenal of the barracks?

24 A. I must stress before the Trial Chamber another matter that is very

25 important. Those of us who lived quite close to the barracks in these

Page 21909

1 past 30 years that I've been living in Rajlovac, we entered only once into

2 the barracks, because before that we had never entered the barracks to see

3 what sort of weapons there were.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please answer the question. The question

5 was what happened to the firearms that were contained within the arsenal

6 of the barracks.

7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may.


9 MR. TIEGER: That may be the problem with a leading question. I'm

10 not criticising Mr. Josse. I understand why he's doing that. It sounded

11 to me like the witness was trying to explain his knowledge of whatever

12 arsenal existed beforehand or whatever weapons existed which,

13 presumably --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. He started saying that he must stress another

15 matter that's very important so that -- and then -- okay.

16 If your -- the beginning of your answer would lead you shortly to

17 answering the question, I'll allow you to proceed. I just want to draw

18 your attention that finally we'd like to know what happened with the

19 firearms. Please proceed, Mr. Krsman.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the barracks there were very

21 small amounts of weapons. These were an -- air defence weapons because

22 this is an air force pilots and flight engineering centre. They had

23 mortars and light cannons. None of the cannons we found there were over

24 40 millimetres in calibre.

25 JUDGE ORIE: And what happened to them, because that was the

Page 21910

1 question.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm telling you now all the weapons

3 left behind in the barracks, the ones that we came across. There were no

4 other weapons. They had none. But we found that out only when we entered

5 the barracks. I was just telling you that we had never enter the barracks

6 before and didn't know how many weapons there were.

7 MR. JOSSE: Your Honour, ironically the difficulty may be that I'm

8 not leading enough. Perhaps not --

9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll see what happens if you lead more. You're not

10 blamed for the level of leading one minute ago.


12 Q. Your evidence is that Serbs enter the barracks and took some

13 firearms and then Muslims entered the barracks and took some firearms; is

14 that correct?

15 JUDGE ORIE: I'm afraid that Mr. Tieger here --

16 MR. JOSSE: It is a leading question, Your Honour, and I was then

17 going to ask the witness to give some details, but he's going to give this

18 evidence. If my learned friend is unhappy, then I'll simply deal with

19 what happens next, what happens next.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Krsman, you said you never entered the barracks

21 before the war and that you didn't know how many weapons there were. Even

22 without knowing how many there were, do you know what happened to the

23 weapons that were there before the war? Have you any information about

24 that?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The information I have dates from

Page 21911

1 the period when the JNA left the barracks and we as the TO took control of

2 it.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And are you aware of -- did you have any reason

4 when you took over -- did you have any reason to consider whether the

5 weaponry left in the barracks which you found was the complete set of --

6 of weapons or whether there were any parts missing?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two months before entering the

8 barracks, in agreement with our Muslim neighbours, that's to say pursuant

9 an agreement between our Crisis Staff and theirs, we, the Serbs from my

10 village, entered the barracks and took 202 pieces of weapons with 150

11 rounds of ammunition. We listed whatever we took on a piece of paper.

12 On the same day, the Muslims from Sokolje came to the barracks

13 after us and took 800 pieces of light weapons and 150 combat sets. They

14 took the same uniforms as we did. We did not know what sort of weaponry

15 there was in the barracks before the JNA retreated. We took the went

16 months month of March 1992.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You made a distinction between the weapons

18 taken by the Muslims in -- where you called them 800 pieces of light

19 weapons. The weapons you took, the 202 pieces, were those light weapons

20 or any other weapons?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the same. We took 200 pieces

22 of light weapons, and they took 800 because there were many more of them.

23 There were more able-bodied men since there were 10.000 people in that

24 area, and we all took weapons against a receipt.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Josse.

Page 21912


2 Q. How was the collection -- let me start again. As far as you were

3 concerned, was this an agreement on your part, that is the Serbs' part,

4 and the Muslims' part?

5 A. Yes. This was an agreement that we implemented, and the weapons

6 were given to us by Colonel Miletic who was still at the barracks at the

7 time.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters -- interpreter adds the witness

9 said: A commander of the barracks, Colonel Miletic.

10 MR. JOSSE: Yes, I'll stop there.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Josse, if this is a convenient moment to stop,

12 then we'll continue tomorrow morning.

13 Mr. Krsman, we'll stop for the day. We'd like to see you back

14 tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this same courtroom.

15 Mr. Josse, if it would be possible to send us the 65 ter summary

16 as soon as possible, that would prevent us from having to come back to the

17 Tribunal this evening and to fetch it.

18 We will adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9.00.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day

21 of March, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.